May 1, 2024 • 26 mins
The sharing economy is booming, and its growth isn’t expected to slow down any time soon. Listen in as SVP & Casualty Broker Andrea Ward and Apollo ibott President Chris Moore discuss where they’re seeing growth, some of the more widespread obstacles the sector faces, and what insureds can expect to encounter in the marketplace when putting their insurance programs together. They also dive into what kind of information or risk management elements insurers want to see when considering sharing economy business and provide insight for navigating today’s insurance landscape.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amanda Knight (00:00):
Hello everyone.
Today, scott and I are joinedby Andrea Ward, a Senior Vice
President and Casualty Brokerwith our San Francisco office,
as well as Chris Moore,president of iBot.
This is the Placing you Firstpodcast from CRC Group.
Scott Gordon (00:13):
This podcast features news and insights from
a vast knowledge base of over5,100 associates.
Amanda Knight (00:20):
Who write more than $35 billion in premium
annually.
Plus, we give you the latestinformation on what's happening
at CRC this.
Chris Moore (00:27):
This.
Amanda Knight (00:27):
This is the Placing you First podcast and
now the hosts of the podcast,Amanda Knight and Scott Gordon.
Welcome to the podcast.
It's good to have you with ustoday to talk about the sharing
economy.
Thanks for having us.
Yes, thank you All right.
Scott Gordon (00:42):
Well, I'm really interested in this topic because
I feel like we see the sharingeconomy everywhere and it's
constantly growing.
According to Statista, in 2023,the total value of the global
sharing economy was worth about$150 billion, but it's predicted
(01:09):
to hit almost $800 billion by2031, which that's just
mind-boggling.
Andrea Ward (01:11):
So where are you seeing the most growth in 2024?
So, within the wholesale space,we're seeing a ton of growth
within the car share space, aswell as TNCs.
Basically, the way I view thesharing economy space is
anything that can be done via anapp that connects people is
something that's in this space.
So a couple of examples wouldbe dog walking.
If you can trigger an app andhave someone come walk your dog
(01:34):
courtesy of that app, then thatwould be in the sharing economy
space.
Similar we've seen gym clothessharing.
We've basically seen anythingin addition to the ones that you
would think about, which wouldbe the car sharing, the TNCs, as
well as the food delivery.
Chris Moore (01:48):
Yeah, I suppose.
For me, I think of the sharingeconomy as the start of the
evolution of businesses withintech.
I don't really use the phrasesharing economy that often
anymore.
It tended to be the companiesthat dominated that space needed
to to give themselves a taglinethat got people to understand
(02:09):
their business model, and theirtheir business model was one of.
I don't need to own assets andI don't need to necessarily
employ every person that touchesmy product and service.
I can create an ecosystem or amarketplace that just
facilitates people to to havethings when they want it, how
they want it or whatever theywant.
So that's evolved from the bighome sharing companies, the big
(02:32):
ride sharing companies now tosome of the most traditional
businesses saying, well, if thatworks for them, that could work
for me.
So in some of the huge amountsof growth you might not even
think of it as a tech company ora share in the economy company,
but it's some of the hugeamounts of growth.
You might not even think of itas a tech company or a sharing
economy company, but it's someof the biggest Fortune 500
companies saying maybe I canutilize an independent
contracting network or maybe Ican look at a subscription model
(02:53):
where people don't buy myproduct, they lease it and they
share it.
So for me, the growth is thesharing economy is actually
morphing slowly but surely intojust the economy, and it's just
a new way that people interactwith brands that they love.
Scott Gordon (03:10):
We know the sharing economy is booming, but
it's still a fairly new businessmodel in the grand scheme of
things.
So what are some of the morewidespread obstacles that it's
facing?
Chris Moore (03:20):
It presents some unique challenges, certainly
from the insurance side, andthere's some challenges that
we're starting to see evolvefrom a regulatory and a legal
landscape perspective.
Initially, some of the earlysharing economy companies if we
use that phrase probablyoperated with light touch
(03:42):
regulation because they weresmall and those models became so
popular.
You know, ride sharing exploded, accommodation sharing exploded
, and the regulators willprobably be playing a bit of
catch up to say, okay, this isnow a huge part of the way that
the citizens in my state orcountry, town, city, operate,
(04:03):
get around, you know, travel,that we need to probably create
something that's fit for purposehere, and I don't necessarily
think they got that right at thestart and unfortunately, some I
don't still believe are right,even though we're 10 years on
from the launch of that businessmodel.
And so we're seeing that changein legislative environment, and
a lot of that can be linked toinsurance.
Right, if you don't own avehicle or if you don't own a
home.
Right if, if you don't own avehicle or if you don't own a
(04:24):
home or if you don't employ acertain person, then all of a
sudden, the insurance or theliability exposure is no longer
a direct one, it becomes acontingent one.
And what are you responsiblefor as an ecosystem, a platform,
a marketplace in providinginsurance for, and what do the
people that utilize your productservice have to be responsible
for from an insuranceperspective?
(04:45):
So there's some of thechallenges that we work with
people like Andrew at CRC tocreate these solutions that
provide not just coverage forthe corporate entity which is
the platform there that enablesthis product and service, but
also creates insurance solutionsto actually enable that
business to create trust amongstthe users of it.
So nobody wants to go on theirtravels and stay in a home that
(05:08):
they don't think is adequatelycovered.
And if there's an issue that'sall of a sudden going to hit
your personal bank account,that's a really horrible
situation.
You'd never lean in and trustthat model.
You wouldn't get into a vehicleunless you knew the person had
a valid driving license and theyhad insurance to protect them
all these sort of things.
So you're seeing regulatorsstart to demand certain levels
(05:29):
of insurance, but you're alsoseeing the businesses evolve
saying it's such a strategicpart of my business that I need
insurance and that insurance is,whilst it's available today
amongst certain markets, Iwouldn't say it's an abundance
of capacity within it, and Ithink a lot of that is probably
from a misunderstanding ofexactly how this new economy is
(05:49):
trying to operate.
Andrea Ward (05:51):
And exactly to that point, you know the legislators
are trying to catch up, rightexactly to what Chris said is
they can't figure out exactlythis should be structured.
Different states have differentrules with regards to this and
so, to that point, to have aretailer and a wholesaler and a
market partner, a carrier reallyknow the nuances in this space
and knowing that it's everevolving and changing.
(06:11):
But when we're allowed to workwith Chris and his teammates,
we're able to come up withsolutions and there's a lot of
discussions on how would thisapply, how would this loss be
triggered?
This is contingent auto.
Is it primary?
Is it excess of state limits?
It's constantly having thoseconversations amongst these
members.
I mean, chris thinks of me as anextension of his marketing arm.
(06:32):
I think of him as a constantresource.
We have calls with insureds hey, what are you thinking of doing
in the future If this doesn'twork?
How are we going to apply theinsurance to your next steps?
Or to what Chris said thesecompanies are growing.
They either didn't have thefunding, they didn't have the
thought process, they didn'thave the business model, the
(06:54):
towns and cities that theythought they were able to grow
in non-starter.
They either didn't want theexposure, or they weren't sure
how to approach it from alegislative perspective.
Chris Moore (07:04):
And what I actually love about that to add on to
your point is how much we'veseen the sophisticated and
successful companies within thisspace really lean into that
insurance side.
Sophisticated and successfulcompanies within this space
really lean into that insuranceside.
They've realized that it's sostrategic for me as a business
to to buy a sustainableinsurance program that is
completely fit for purpose, likeI said, to enable my business
(07:25):
and to help me grow to, to helpme be compliant, to help me do
the right thing, that there isso much of a demand on our time,
both on the on the broking sideand the underlying side, which
is, which, actually a joybecause you learn so much and
you get to really createinnovative solutions.
But when I was working in aprevious life in more of a
traditional market from aninsurance perspective, I would
(07:48):
be lucky if I see my client morethan once a year for an hour
conversation, and theconversation was very Check the
box.
I think you once knew what myinsurance company would ask a
couple of questions and thenwe'll say hello next year in 12
months time, ready for therenewal.
This is an evolving processwhere we're very accustomed to
speaking to our clients everyweek, every month and when a new
(08:09):
topic comes up, we get on acall and it's not.
This is how we need to solvethis problem, it's right.
What does everyone think?
What's going to be thecollective approach?
Do we need to bring theregulator into the conversation?
It's really being a lot moreproactive than what insurance
has been really guilty of, isbeing just super reactive.
Andrea Ward (08:25):
And it's something for both Chris and I, which is
why we've developed thisfriendship.
It challenges us and it makesus think.
So, to Chris's point, I was anunderwriter as well.
It was very much in the boxCheck the list, did they have
lost funds, et cetera.
You really have to take a risk,especially from Chris's
perspective on some of theseinsureds and that they fully
(08:45):
baked their ideas.
And, to my point earlier, a lotof these insureds didn't make
it a handful of years ago andthe ones that are and are
established are doing reallywell and really they're changing
the forefront of what it meansto be app-based and technology.
And you know where the futureis going.
Most kids in their 20s and 30sdon't want to own a house, they
don't want to own a car, butthey want it available at their
fingertips.
(09:05):
And that's the differencebetween, you know, my generation
and Chris's, and certainly ourparents and then the kids that
are coming after us.
Amanda Knight (09:13):
Well, and you know, as a sort of a follow-up,
you talked about how importantit is that you stay connected,
that you have a plan in place,that we aren't just checking
boxes.
With that in mind, I imaginethat comes in handy, especially,
or is vitally important, whenyou think about the kind of
obstacles that they're coming towhen it's time to put that
insurance program together.
It's time to put that insuranceprogram together.
(09:33):
It's time to think aboutrenewal.
What kinds of obstacles are outthere?
Andrea Ward (09:39):
right now.
Well, I was just thinking froma retail, wholesale view or
vantage point.
It's absolutely the market.
There are a finite amount ofinsurance companies, apollo
being one of our biggestpartners, just within this space
.
There's not a lot of people whohey back to our point understand
what the coverage is, know howto underwrite it, know how to
(10:01):
price for it, know how to haveengaging conversation with
insureds.
That let the insureds know thatwe really know what we're
talking about, and to bring anunderwriter to the table for
them to hear from Chris's youknow senior underwriters as well
as himself, as well as hisactuary people to literally give
confidence to these insureds,because on the onset, we're not
(10:22):
talking about $5,000 policieshere.
The very first thing I say topeople is how are you different
from some of the larger you knowinsureds in your space as well
as?
Can you afford these minimums?
Because we're starting at alevel, because the risk is
inherently there, and so forChris's team to go on, the risk
it's the cost of capital.
How much is it going to costfor him to underwrite it and put
(10:44):
terms in front of an insured?
But there's a very finite spacewithin domestic as well as
European carriers that willcontemplate these type of
insureds, and that's a majorstruggle for us.
Chris Moore (10:55):
I would say that when we look at a new
opportunity within this space,we have to really assess where
they are in their own evolutionand we have to tailor our output
, our product, to what they'retrying to achieve.
So you may have a new startup,a new entrant, or it was just
(11:16):
one of the big guys that we talkabout and we see and everyone
knows the names, but in theirearly stages it was about
establishing the business model,proving the concept worked, and
in that phase it was about Ineed to find a carrier that can
grow with me, that is going toallow me real volume, is going
to allow me to be maybe a littlebit more lenient on who I allow
on my platform, someone that'sgoing to allow me to take on
(11:37):
some real heavy risk exposuresbut know over time that we can
work on rating and get to astate that we're all happy.
That's a difficult process togo through, but there's
absolutely companies that weinsure in that process today and
when we're insuring them, we'realmost providing an element of
consultancy as well as giving aninsurance product.
We tell them that this is whatbest in class looks like.
(11:58):
This is what a typical companywithin your space buys from a
limit perspective or has as aretention, and these are the key
coverages, and so we go throughthat consultancy process.
Then you see this evolutionwhere somebody grows and then
they've already proved theconcept no-transcript shifts
(12:35):
somewhat to say right, let'slook at the data you have, let's
look at your claims data, yourexposure data.
Where are the really toughareas of your exposure and can
we focus our efforts incontrolling that element of the
risk or restructuring that oreven eliminating that part from
your business, because that'sreally inhibiting.
You forget that profitability.
Then the relationship betweenthe insurer, the broker and
their client is one of realstrategic value.
(12:58):
You're always sharing opinionsto, like I say, optimize exactly
what that looks like andultimately make a safer, more
sustainable operation.
But it's an evolution.
You don't get there from dayone and that's why I think the
relationship is so interestingand there's barriers for both
sides about how much can Icontrol it and how much can I
(13:18):
optimize this, versus if you'rein a real startup mode.
Some of the minimum premiums orsome of the limits and
retentions can be really, reallyexpensive when you're running a
really really lean business.
But that's some of the fun youreally never know what new
opportunity is going to hit yourdesk in this space from one day
to the other?
Andrea Ward (13:37):
And from an insured perspective, they have to have
the insurance in place to launchthe business right.
So as you grow over time,obviously the Chris's and
whoever else in the world arewilling to work with it.
But really the concept has tobe vetted out in the marketplace
for it to reach a point wherethose minimums don't seem.
It's going to be expensive.
(13:59):
But as you work to developthese relationships with the
carrier and brokers then as timegoes on it'll be a more
palatable purchase.
But in the beginning,absolutely, insurance is
people's biggest spend, so youhave to find a partner that's
going to work with you on that.
Scott Gordon (14:14):
Well, and this next question might be a little
redundant.
I know we touched on thisearlier, but maybe we could take
a little deeper dive into whatkind of information or risk
management elements do insurerswant when considering sharing
economy business?
Chris Moore (14:27):
So some of the information is about what does.
How do I protect my business?
Right?
So as insurers, we getcompletely focused and obsessed
with risk transfer?
Obviously we do, because that'swhere our premium comes from.
Our premium is really whatwe're charging for our product.
But risk management is muchmore than just risk transfer.
There's risk control, there'srisk avoidance and there's risk
(14:49):
acceptance.
So a lot of the information isright.
Okay, let's start with that riskavoidance, because if I can
avoid risk altogether, that'sgot to be a great thing.
All right, what are the waysyou can see to avoid risks?
And then it's about what arethe best fraud controls in the
market?
What are the best backgroundcheck and screening so I can get
these bad actors and awfuldrivers and people who aren't
who they say they are, off myplatform?
(15:11):
Can I get telematics to makesure that people are, you know
if it's an auto-based exposure?
Can I make sure that I can givecoaching and training and make
sure that I'm eliminating peoplebefore they have an accident
rather than only eliminatingthem after the fact?
So there's all that sort ofrisk avoidant risk control.
And then, with the risktransfer, we're obviously
telling them about insurance andhow we're rating it.
(15:33):
We'll be very transparent withour actuarial assumptions and
then they can utilize thatinformation to help record the
right information internally, topresent that to me so that we
can try and get to the mostaccurate possible number that
works for all parties.
But there's also this piece ofrisk acceptance, which is a lot
of these platforms havehistorically, because there's
not been ample amount ofinsurance capacity available,
(15:55):
decided to retain large elementsof risk.
Now that can be a greatstrategy if done well, but it
can also be a really, reallydifficult one if not done so
well.
And we've seen some of the bigride-sharing companies build
humongous captives and youcannot go a quarterly earnings
with a CFO talking about what'shappening with their reserves
and if there's beendeterioration in back years
(16:16):
reserving and how that impactsyou.
And obviously a lot ofcompanies have said, hey, I
don't want to expose my CFO tobe talking about insurance every
single quarter.
I'd like to focus on some otherthings and it's a real drain on
my valuation and how the marketviews me.
So having a really clearstrategy and working with a
broker that can give you realgreat consultancy on this is an
(16:37):
element of risk that we think isperfect for a captive because
it's super stable business.
We think we can actuariallymodel it very accurately and you
shouldn't face thatdeterioration in reserves in
future years versus.
This is a super volatile layer.
There's a lot of uncertaintyhere.
Yes, it sounds like anexpensive third part.
You know, outside purchase froman insurer, but at the same
(17:00):
time, accepting that into acaptive and hoping that it runs
to a pick that is quitesubjective is also comes with a
different form of risk.
But I promise you it is veryrisky, so that a lot of that
information is about more thanjust what my insurance product
is made up of.
It's okay.
Well, how do I control risk IfI am retaining risk?
Can you help me look, make anassessment of what that looks
(17:21):
like?
And yes, I'm going to buy riskfor you.
But if I do, I really want tounderstand how you get to the
numbers and how you structurethe coverage et cetera, because
it's a super important purchasefor me.
Scott Gordon (17:30):
You just mentioned the importance of relationships
, so how does partnering with aCRC group producer make sense
for retail agents with sharingeconomy clients?
Chris Moore (17:39):
For me, a partnership with CRC makes a ton
of sense if you're enteringthis business, right, and you
want true industry expertsacross different coverage lines,
right.
So andrew and I talk aboutgeneral liability and auto
liability and excess umbrellainsurance weekly, right?
But there are, within thatnetwork of the crc group, you
can look at cyber and you canlook at dno and certain
(18:00):
professional coverages and andyou can get access to some of
the captive management, all thatsort of thing.
So there's a huge, wide arrayof resource.
Crc employ real specialists inall those areas and that
specialism is is so important Iit's unrealistic to think that
any retailer can build thatamount of specialism within
every single different line ofbusiness.
I think that's's okay.
(18:21):
The way that this works is youknow everyone calls it the
sharing economy.
You know we're sharingexperience across this and CRC
bring a ton of it, and what Ithink they do a great job of is
they find carriers that alsoshare in that really strong
specialism, and so it's notabout finding capacity that is
going to write this at thelowest possible price when they
don't really have the experienceto deliver a product that's so
(18:45):
meaningful.
They try to find people and say,look, I'm going to present you
with multiple options, but I'mgoing to find true specialists
because, ultimately, if you're aplatform that is built on trust
, the worst thing that I canpossibly give to you is an
insurance policy that doesn'tdeliver on that promise and
breaks that trust.
Well, that's one way thatyou'll definitely not make it as
(19:08):
a business.
If your users are not havingthis first class claims
experience, then it's very toughto think that you'll operate
for a long, long time.
So I think that's what theybring is that specialism.
They work tirelessly for theirclients, and just the amount of
experience they've had in thisspace already just shows why so
many clients choose to work withthem.
Andrea Ward (19:25):
Thank you, chris.
We appreciate that.
But just to Chris's point, weabsolutely have specialists in
each area, so I am not trying tobe everything to everyone.
I focus on the auto, I focus onthe GL, I focus on the access.
We have different people forcyber across the board, and
that's something that CRC bringsto the table.
Right, I'm not trying to playin a sport that I don't know how
to play.
We are absolutely utilizing theresources of CRC and we work so
(19:47):
well as a team.
We're not out to get each other.
We're out to work with Chris,in conjunction with the
retailers.
And again, when retailers cometo us unless this is really
their space we understand thatwe're going to have to educate
them and explain a lot of things, and absolutely that is our joy
to do, because we wantlong-term partners with the
retailers.
We want long-term partners withChris and his team, and just
(20:09):
even Chris and I being on thiscall today.
It shows you the depth ofrelationship we have.
Scott Gordon (20:14):
We always talk about CRC's deep bench on this
podcast and I think of it as theVenn diagram, where all the
different circles overlap andCRC has all the circles.
So it's nice to have thatcommunication and cross
pollination, I guess.
But we're done with theinsurance part of our show.
(20:35):
Thank you so much, guys, butbefore you go, we'd like to do a
little something that Amandaand I like to call rapid fire.
So we're going to ask questionsand you just give us the first
thing off the top of your head,and it's just to get to know you
, round Robin.
First question what is the bestadvice you ever received and
(20:58):
I'll add a little postscript tothat and who did it come from?
That's what I want to know.
Chris Moore (21:03):
One of my insurance mentors always said you have to
be brave.
You can be educated, you haveto be brave.
The best possible risk on papercan still go wrong, and that's
fine, and also the worstpossible risk can run loss-free
and generate huge amounts ofprofit.
But ultimately you just got tobe brave and stick by the
(21:23):
underwriting decision and whyyou made it, and it's served me
pretty well, I think.
Andrea Ward (21:27):
So I was an underwriter for years and this
definitely didn't come from theunderwriting side.
It came from, I don't know, atsome point becoming a wholesaler
.
Someone said to me don't askfor permission, ask for
forgiveness.
After the fact and I thinkthat's kind of perfect for being
a wholesaler, especially inthis space, even if it's the
(21:48):
middle of the night, I have agut feeling of what Chris is
going to say and what he's notgoing to say, and what he's
going to approve and what he'snot going to approve.
So I tend to lob it out there,as this is what I'm pretty sure
is going to happen and I'll havethe conversation tomorrow.
So no, I mean and I don't knowwho that came from, but it's
kind of been a decent rule ofthumb for me to live by, because
I have an underwritingbackground I feel like I have a
(22:08):
pretty strong feeling of whatpeople will approve and what
they won't, and I'm certainlynot doing anything particularly
crazy.
Chris Moore (22:15):
And the way you operate often reminds me of one
of those, one of the Nike's sortof original sort of
philosophies or one of theirpillars, and it says there's no
such thing as a perfect process,but there is such thing as a
perfect outcome.
And I always think with you,like you're always striving to
get like an absolutely perfectoutcome.
It might be absolutelyconvoluted and we're doing calls
(22:37):
, calls at 1am, where you'vecome up with some wacky idea to
how to get this deal done.
By the end of the day, you getthe deal done.
Nobody remembers the process.
Everyone remembers well, we'vejust done an amazing deal for
our client.
Andrea Ward (22:50):
And in the process keeping that high moral
confidence, moral bar right,very very important.
Scott Gordon (22:58):
Next question is not nearly as profound, but what
if you had to eat one meal forthe rest of your life?
What would it be?
Andrea Ward (23:06):
this is easy for me chips and salsa.
Yeah, chips and salsa.
Without a margarita on the sidewould be great, but chips and
salsa oh, I'd be the size of ahouse, but, um, I hate.
Chris Moore (23:21):
Everyone asks me what my death row meal and I
always want to say somethinglike amazing, like refined, or
something that shows off mypalate and how cultured I am.
I, I just love a burger.
I don't think you could.
If you have a good burger, thenI just think it hands down.
Scott Gordon (23:35):
That's for me yeah , who you trying to impress on
your last day on.
Chris Moore (23:38):
Yeah, no, that's it .
Andrea Ward (23:38):
I just just get me a burger, come on chips and
salsa is about as basic, so atleast we're not talking steak,
okay.
Scott Gordon (23:46):
Now, what's the best TV show or movie you've
seen recently?
Or, if you're not a movie or TVperson, the best book you've
read.
Andrea Ward (23:55):
I'm sure I've read a book, but I haven't watched TV
in a long time because, likeChris, we have between the two
of us we have five kids underthe age of what?
Eight?
There's not a lot, I would say.
I would say I've watched a lotof blippy and bluey recently
bluey right, uh, blippy andbluey, but uh, unfortunately I
don't get, I don't get a lot ofchance to do uh, much of the
(24:17):
other two I'm not ashamed to saythat I did cry in the new
episode of bluey it is.
Chris Moore (24:22):
if you haven't watched it, it will get you.
I promise you it will get you.
The new episode is when theymove houses is tough, it's a
tough one.
Andrea Ward (24:34):
See, this is why we're so perfectly aligned.
Chris Moore (24:37):
I wouldn't say it was my favorite thing to watch.
The Gentleman on Netflix isvery good if you want to watch
something.
It does not reflect Britishculture, culture in any way,
shape or form.
I could probably see that, butit is very good.
Andrea Ward (24:49):
That was um a lot of binge watching if I have to
give a big girl answer, it'd begriselda with uh sofia vagaro.
She was scary as anything inthat, and that's about as much
binge watching as I do that, orIndian matchmaker.
Scott Gordon (25:07):
Andrea and Chris, thank you so much for being here
.
Thank you.
Chris Moore (25:10):
Thank you so much.
Scott Gordon (25:11):
Providing current insights into the marketplace is
just one more way CRC Group isplacing you first.
Don't forget to subscribe andshare.
Hello everyone.
Today, scott and I are joinedby Andrea Ward, a Senior Vice
President and Casualty Brokerwith our San Francisco office,
as well as Chris Moore,president of iBot.
This is the Placing you Firstpodcast from CRC Group.
Scott Gordon (00:13):
This podcast features news and insights from
a vast knowledge base of over5,100 associates.
Amanda Knight (00:20):
Who write more than $35 billion in premium
annually.
Plus, we give you the latestinformation on what's happening
at CRC this.
Chris Moore (00:27):
This.
Amanda Knight (00:27):
This is the Placing you First podcast and
now the hosts of the podcast,Amanda Knight and Scott Gordon.
Welcome to the podcast.
It's good to have you with ustoday to talk about the sharing
economy.
Thanks for having us.
Yes, thank you All right.
Scott Gordon (00:42):
Well, I'm really interested in this topic because
I feel like we see the sharingeconomy everywhere and it's
constantly growing.
According to Statista, in 2023,the total value of the global
sharing economy was worth about$150 billion, but it's predicted
(01:09):
to hit almost $800 billion by2031, which that's just
mind-boggling.
Andrea Ward (01:11):
So where are you seeing the most growth in 2024?
So, within the wholesale space,we're seeing a ton of growth
within the car share space, aswell as TNCs.
Basically, the way I view thesharing economy space is
anything that can be done via anapp that connects people is
something that's in this space.
So a couple of examples wouldbe dog walking.
If you can trigger an app andhave someone come walk your dog
(01:34):
courtesy of that app, then thatwould be in the sharing economy
space.
Similar we've seen gym clothessharing.
We've basically seen anythingin addition to the ones that you
would think about, which wouldbe the car sharing, the TNCs, as
well as the food delivery.
Chris Moore (01:48):
Yeah, I suppose.
For me, I think of the sharingeconomy as the start of the
evolution of businesses withintech.
I don't really use the phrasesharing economy that often
anymore.
It tended to be the companiesthat dominated that space needed
to to give themselves a taglinethat got people to understand
(02:09):
their business model, and theirtheir business model was one of.
I don't need to own assets andI don't need to necessarily
employ every person that touchesmy product and service.
I can create an ecosystem or amarketplace that just
facilitates people to to havethings when they want it, how
they want it or whatever theywant.
So that's evolved from the bighome sharing companies, the big
(02:32):
ride sharing companies now tosome of the most traditional
businesses saying, well, if thatworks for them, that could work
for me.
So in some of the huge amountsof growth you might not even
think of it as a tech company ora share in the economy company,
but it's some of the hugeamounts of growth.
You might not even think of itas a tech company or a sharing
economy company, but it's someof the biggest Fortune 500
companies saying maybe I canutilize an independent
contracting network or maybe Ican look at a subscription model
(02:53):
where people don't buy myproduct, they lease it and they
share it.
So for me, the growth is thesharing economy is actually
morphing slowly but surely intojust the economy, and it's just
a new way that people interactwith brands that they love.
Scott Gordon (03:10):
We know the sharing economy is booming, but
it's still a fairly new businessmodel in the grand scheme of
things.
So what are some of the morewidespread obstacles that it's
facing?
Chris Moore (03:20):
It presents some unique challenges, certainly
from the insurance side, andthere's some challenges that
we're starting to see evolvefrom a regulatory and a legal
landscape perspective.
Initially, some of the earlysharing economy companies if we
use that phrase probablyoperated with light touch
(03:42):
regulation because they weresmall and those models became so
popular.
You know, ride sharing exploded, accommodation sharing exploded
, and the regulators willprobably be playing a bit of
catch up to say, okay, this isnow a huge part of the way that
the citizens in my state orcountry, town, city, operate,
(04:03):
get around, you know, travel,that we need to probably create
something that's fit for purposehere, and I don't necessarily
think they got that right at thestart and unfortunately, some I
don't still believe are right,even though we're 10 years on
from the launch of that businessmodel.
And so we're seeing that changein legislative environment, and
a lot of that can be linked toinsurance.
Right, if you don't own avehicle or if you don't own a
home.
Right if, if you don't own avehicle or if you don't own a
(04:24):
home or if you don't employ acertain person, then all of a
sudden, the insurance or theliability exposure is no longer
a direct one, it becomes acontingent one.
And what are you responsiblefor as an ecosystem, a platform,
a marketplace in providinginsurance for, and what do the
people that utilize your productservice have to be responsible
for from an insuranceperspective?
(04:45):
So there's some of thechallenges that we work with
people like Andrew at CRC tocreate these solutions that
provide not just coverage forthe corporate entity which is
the platform there that enablesthis product and service, but
also creates insurance solutionsto actually enable that
business to create trust amongstthe users of it.
So nobody wants to go on theirtravels and stay in a home that
(05:08):
they don't think is adequatelycovered.
And if there's an issue that'sall of a sudden going to hit
your personal bank account,that's a really horrible
situation.
You'd never lean in and trustthat model.
You wouldn't get into a vehicleunless you knew the person had
a valid driving license and theyhad insurance to protect them
all these sort of things.
So you're seeing regulatorsstart to demand certain levels
(05:29):
of insurance, but you're alsoseeing the businesses evolve
saying it's such a strategicpart of my business that I need
insurance and that insurance is,whilst it's available today
amongst certain markets, Iwouldn't say it's an abundance
of capacity within it, and Ithink a lot of that is probably
from a misunderstanding ofexactly how this new economy is
(05:49):
trying to operate.
Andrea Ward (05:51):
And exactly to that point, you know the legislators
are trying to catch up, rightexactly to what Chris said is
they can't figure out exactlythis should be structured.
Different states have differentrules with regards to this and
so, to that point, to have aretailer and a wholesaler and a
market partner, a carrier reallyknow the nuances in this space
and knowing that it's everevolving and changing.
(06:11):
But when we're allowed to workwith Chris and his teammates,
we're able to come up withsolutions and there's a lot of
discussions on how would thisapply, how would this loss be
triggered?
This is contingent auto.
Is it primary?
Is it excess of state limits?
It's constantly having thoseconversations amongst these
members.
I mean, chris thinks of me as anextension of his marketing arm.
(06:32):
I think of him as a constantresource.
We have calls with insureds hey, what are you thinking of doing
in the future If this doesn'twork?
How are we going to apply theinsurance to your next steps?
Or to what Chris said thesecompanies are growing.
They either didn't have thefunding, they didn't have the
thought process, they didn'thave the business model, the
(06:54):
towns and cities that theythought they were able to grow
in non-starter.
They either didn't want theexposure, or they weren't sure
how to approach it from alegislative perspective.
Chris Moore (07:04):
And what I actually love about that to add on to
your point is how much we'veseen the sophisticated and
successful companies within thisspace really lean into that
insurance side.
Sophisticated and successfulcompanies within this space
really lean into that insuranceside.
They've realized that it's sostrategic for me as a business
to to buy a sustainableinsurance program that is
completely fit for purpose, likeI said, to enable my business
(07:25):
and to help me grow to, to helpme be compliant, to help me do
the right thing, that there isso much of a demand on our time,
both on the on the broking sideand the underlying side, which
is, which, actually a joybecause you learn so much and
you get to really createinnovative solutions.
But when I was working in aprevious life in more of a
traditional market from aninsurance perspective, I would
(07:48):
be lucky if I see my client morethan once a year for an hour
conversation, and theconversation was very Check the
box.
I think you once knew what myinsurance company would ask a
couple of questions and thenwe'll say hello next year in 12
months time, ready for therenewal.
This is an evolving processwhere we're very accustomed to
speaking to our clients everyweek, every month and when a new
(08:09):
topic comes up, we get on acall and it's not.
This is how we need to solvethis problem, it's right.
What does everyone think?
What's going to be thecollective approach?
Do we need to bring theregulator into the conversation?
It's really being a lot moreproactive than what insurance
has been really guilty of, isbeing just super reactive.
Andrea Ward (08:25):
And it's something for both Chris and I, which is
why we've developed thisfriendship.
It challenges us and it makesus think.
So, to Chris's point, I was anunderwriter as well.
It was very much in the boxCheck the list, did they have
lost funds, et cetera.
You really have to take a risk,especially from Chris's
perspective on some of theseinsureds and that they fully
(08:45):
baked their ideas.
And, to my point earlier, a lotof these insureds didn't make
it a handful of years ago andthe ones that are and are
established are doing reallywell and really they're changing
the forefront of what it meansto be app-based and technology.
And you know where the futureis going.
Most kids in their 20s and 30sdon't want to own a house, they
don't want to own a car, butthey want it available at their
fingertips.
(09:05):
And that's the differencebetween, you know, my generation
and Chris's, and certainly ourparents and then the kids that
are coming after us.
Amanda Knight (09:13):
Well, and you know, as a sort of a follow-up,
you talked about how importantit is that you stay connected,
that you have a plan in place,that we aren't just checking
boxes.
With that in mind, I imaginethat comes in handy, especially,
or is vitally important, whenyou think about the kind of
obstacles that they're coming towhen it's time to put that
insurance program together.
It's time to put that insuranceprogram together.
(09:33):
It's time to think aboutrenewal.
What kinds of obstacles are outthere?
Andrea Ward (09:39):
right now.
Well, I was just thinking froma retail, wholesale view or
vantage point.
It's absolutely the market.
There are a finite amount ofinsurance companies, apollo
being one of our biggestpartners, just within this space
.
There's not a lot of people whohey back to our point understand
what the coverage is, know howto underwrite it, know how to
(10:01):
price for it, know how to haveengaging conversation with
insureds.
That let the insureds know thatwe really know what we're
talking about, and to bring anunderwriter to the table for
them to hear from Chris's youknow senior underwriters as well
as himself, as well as hisactuary people to literally give
confidence to these insureds,because on the onset, we're not
(10:22):
talking about $5,000 policieshere.
The very first thing I say topeople is how are you different
from some of the larger you knowinsureds in your space as well
as?
Can you afford these minimums?
Because we're starting at alevel, because the risk is
inherently there, and so forChris's team to go on, the risk
it's the cost of capital.
How much is it going to costfor him to underwrite it and put
(10:44):
terms in front of an insured?
But there's a very finite spacewithin domestic as well as
European carriers that willcontemplate these type of
insureds, and that's a majorstruggle for us.
Chris Moore (10:55):
I would say that when we look at a new
opportunity within this space,we have to really assess where
they are in their own evolutionand we have to tailor our output
, our product, to what they'retrying to achieve.
So you may have a new startup,a new entrant, or it was just
(11:16):
one of the big guys that we talkabout and we see and everyone
knows the names, but in theirearly stages it was about
establishing the business model,proving the concept worked, and
in that phase it was about Ineed to find a carrier that can
grow with me, that is going toallow me real volume, is going
to allow me to be maybe a littlebit more lenient on who I allow
on my platform, someone that'sgoing to allow me to take on
(11:37):
some real heavy risk exposuresbut know over time that we can
work on rating and get to astate that we're all happy.
That's a difficult process togo through, but there's
absolutely companies that weinsure in that process today and
when we're insuring them, we'realmost providing an element of
consultancy as well as giving aninsurance product.
We tell them that this is whatbest in class looks like.
(11:58):
This is what a typical companywithin your space buys from a
limit perspective or has as aretention, and these are the key
coverages, and so we go throughthat consultancy process.
Then you see this evolutionwhere somebody grows and then
they've already proved theconcept no-transcript shifts
(12:35):
somewhat to say right, let'slook at the data you have, let's
look at your claims data, yourexposure data.
Where are the really toughareas of your exposure and can
we focus our efforts incontrolling that element of the
risk or restructuring that oreven eliminating that part from
your business, because that'sreally inhibiting.
You forget that profitability.
Then the relationship betweenthe insurer, the broker and
their client is one of realstrategic value.
(12:58):
You're always sharing opinionsto, like I say, optimize exactly
what that looks like andultimately make a safer, more
sustainable operation.
But it's an evolution.
You don't get there from dayone and that's why I think the
relationship is so interestingand there's barriers for both
sides about how much can Icontrol it and how much can I
(13:18):
optimize this, versus if you'rein a real startup mode.
Some of the minimum premiums orsome of the limits and
retentions can be really, reallyexpensive when you're running a
really really lean business.
But that's some of the fun youreally never know what new
opportunity is going to hit yourdesk in this space from one day
to the other?
Andrea Ward (13:37):
And from an insured perspective, they have to have
the insurance in place to launchthe business right.
So as you grow over time,obviously the Chris's and
whoever else in the world arewilling to work with it.
But really the concept has tobe vetted out in the marketplace
for it to reach a point wherethose minimums don't seem.
It's going to be expensive.
(13:59):
But as you work to developthese relationships with the
carrier and brokers then as timegoes on it'll be a more
palatable purchase.
But in the beginning,absolutely, insurance is
people's biggest spend, so youhave to find a partner that's
going to work with you on that.
Scott Gordon (14:14):
Well, and this next question might be a little
redundant.
I know we touched on thisearlier, but maybe we could take
a little deeper dive into whatkind of information or risk
management elements do insurerswant when considering sharing
economy business?
Chris Moore (14:27):
So some of the information is about what does.
How do I protect my business?
Right?
So as insurers, we getcompletely focused and obsessed
with risk transfer?
Obviously we do, because that'swhere our premium comes from.
Our premium is really whatwe're charging for our product.
But risk management is muchmore than just risk transfer.
There's risk control, there'srisk avoidance and there's risk
(14:49):
acceptance.
So a lot of the information isright.
Okay, let's start with that riskavoidance, because if I can
avoid risk altogether, that'sgot to be a great thing.
All right, what are the waysyou can see to avoid risks?
And then it's about what arethe best fraud controls in the
market?
What are the best backgroundcheck and screening so I can get
these bad actors and awfuldrivers and people who aren't
who they say they are, off myplatform?
(15:11):
Can I get telematics to makesure that people are, you know
if it's an auto-based exposure?
Can I make sure that I can givecoaching and training and make
sure that I'm eliminating peoplebefore they have an accident
rather than only eliminatingthem after the fact?
So there's all that sort ofrisk avoidant risk control.
And then, with the risktransfer, we're obviously
telling them about insurance andhow we're rating it.
(15:33):
We'll be very transparent withour actuarial assumptions and
then they can utilize thatinformation to help record the
right information internally, topresent that to me so that we
can try and get to the mostaccurate possible number that
works for all parties.
But there's also this piece ofrisk acceptance, which is a lot
of these platforms havehistorically, because there's
not been ample amount ofinsurance capacity available,
(15:55):
decided to retain large elementsof risk.
Now that can be a greatstrategy if done well, but it
can also be a really, reallydifficult one if not done so
well.
And we've seen some of the bigride-sharing companies build
humongous captives and youcannot go a quarterly earnings
with a CFO talking about what'shappening with their reserves
and if there's beendeterioration in back years
(16:16):
reserving and how that impactsyou.
And obviously a lot ofcompanies have said, hey, I
don't want to expose my CFO tobe talking about insurance every
single quarter.
I'd like to focus on some otherthings and it's a real drain on
my valuation and how the marketviews me.
So having a really clearstrategy and working with a
broker that can give you realgreat consultancy on this is an
(16:37):
element of risk that we think isperfect for a captive because
it's super stable business.
We think we can actuariallymodel it very accurately and you
shouldn't face thatdeterioration in reserves in
future years versus.
This is a super volatile layer.
There's a lot of uncertaintyhere.
Yes, it sounds like anexpensive third part.
You know, outside purchase froman insurer, but at the same
(17:00):
time, accepting that into acaptive and hoping that it runs
to a pick that is quitesubjective is also comes with a
different form of risk.
But I promise you it is veryrisky, so that a lot of that
information is about more thanjust what my insurance product
is made up of.
It's okay.
Well, how do I control risk IfI am retaining risk?
Can you help me look, make anassessment of what that looks
(17:21):
like?
And yes, I'm going to buy riskfor you.
But if I do, I really want tounderstand how you get to the
numbers and how you structurethe coverage et cetera, because
it's a super important purchasefor me.
Scott Gordon (17:30):
You just mentioned the importance of relationships
, so how does partnering with aCRC group producer make sense
for retail agents with sharingeconomy clients?
Chris Moore (17:39):
For me, a partnership with CRC makes a ton
of sense if you're enteringthis business, right, and you
want true industry expertsacross different coverage lines,
right.
So andrew and I talk aboutgeneral liability and auto
liability and excess umbrellainsurance weekly, right?
But there are, within thatnetwork of the crc group, you
can look at cyber and you canlook at dno and certain
(18:00):
professional coverages and andyou can get access to some of
the captive management, all thatsort of thing.
So there's a huge, wide arrayof resource.
Crc employ real specialists inall those areas and that
specialism is is so important Iit's unrealistic to think that
any retailer can build thatamount of specialism within
every single different line ofbusiness.
I think that's's okay.
(18:21):
The way that this works is youknow everyone calls it the
sharing economy.
You know we're sharingexperience across this and CRC
bring a ton of it, and what Ithink they do a great job of is
they find carriers that alsoshare in that really strong
specialism, and so it's notabout finding capacity that is
going to write this at thelowest possible price when they
don't really have the experienceto deliver a product that's so
(18:45):
meaningful.
They try to find people and say,look, I'm going to present you
with multiple options, but I'mgoing to find true specialists
because, ultimately, if you're aplatform that is built on trust
, the worst thing that I canpossibly give to you is an
insurance policy that doesn'tdeliver on that promise and
breaks that trust.
Well, that's one way thatyou'll definitely not make it as
(19:08):
a business.
If your users are not havingthis first class claims
experience, then it's very toughto think that you'll operate
for a long, long time.
So I think that's what theybring is that specialism.
They work tirelessly for theirclients, and just the amount of
experience they've had in thisspace already just shows why so
many clients choose to work withthem.
Andrea Ward (19:25):
Thank you, chris.
We appreciate that.
But just to Chris's point, weabsolutely have specialists in
each area, so I am not trying tobe everything to everyone.
I focus on the auto, I focus onthe GL, I focus on the access.
We have different people forcyber across the board, and
that's something that CRC bringsto the table.
Right, I'm not trying to playin a sport that I don't know how
to play.
We are absolutely utilizing theresources of CRC and we work so
(19:47):
well as a team.
We're not out to get each other.
We're out to work with Chris,in conjunction with the
retailers.
And again, when retailers cometo us unless this is really
their space we understand thatwe're going to have to educate
them and explain a lot of things, and absolutely that is our joy
to do, because we wantlong-term partners with the
retailers.
We want long-term partners withChris and his team, and just
(20:09):
even Chris and I being on thiscall today.
It shows you the depth ofrelationship we have.
Scott Gordon (20:14):
We always talk about CRC's deep bench on this
podcast and I think of it as theVenn diagram, where all the
different circles overlap andCRC has all the circles.
So it's nice to have thatcommunication and cross
pollination, I guess.
But we're done with theinsurance part of our show.
(20:35):
Thank you so much, guys, butbefore you go, we'd like to do a
little something that Amandaand I like to call rapid fire.
So we're going to ask questionsand you just give us the first
thing off the top of your head,and it's just to get to know you
, round Robin.
First question what is the bestadvice you ever received and
(20:58):
I'll add a little postscript tothat and who did it come from?
That's what I want to know.
Chris Moore (21:03):
One of my insurance mentors always said you have to
be brave.
You can be educated, you haveto be brave.
The best possible risk on papercan still go wrong, and that's
fine, and also the worstpossible risk can run loss-free
and generate huge amounts ofprofit.
But ultimately you just got tobe brave and stick by the
(21:23):
underwriting decision and whyyou made it, and it's served me
pretty well, I think.
Andrea Ward (21:27):
So I was an underwriter for years and this
definitely didn't come from theunderwriting side.
It came from, I don't know, atsome point becoming a wholesaler
.
Someone said to me don't askfor permission, ask for
forgiveness.
After the fact and I thinkthat's kind of perfect for being
a wholesaler, especially inthis space, even if it's the
(21:48):
middle of the night, I have agut feeling of what Chris is
going to say and what he's notgoing to say, and what he's
going to approve and what he'snot going to approve.
So I tend to lob it out there,as this is what I'm pretty sure
is going to happen and I'll havethe conversation tomorrow.
So no, I mean and I don't knowwho that came from, but it's
kind of been a decent rule ofthumb for me to live by, because
I have an underwritingbackground I feel like I have a
(22:08):
pretty strong feeling of whatpeople will approve and what
they won't, and I'm certainlynot doing anything particularly
crazy.
Chris Moore (22:15):
And the way you operate often reminds me of one
of those, one of the Nike's sortof original sort of
philosophies or one of theirpillars, and it says there's no
such thing as a perfect process,but there is such thing as a
perfect outcome.
And I always think with you,like you're always striving to
get like an absolutely perfectoutcome.
It might be absolutelyconvoluted and we're doing calls
(22:37):
, calls at 1am, where you'vecome up with some wacky idea to
how to get this deal done.
By the end of the day, you getthe deal done.
Nobody remembers the process.
Everyone remembers well, we'vejust done an amazing deal for
our client.
Andrea Ward (22:50):
And in the process keeping that high moral
confidence, moral bar right,very very important.
Scott Gordon (22:58):
Next question is not nearly as profound, but what
if you had to eat one meal forthe rest of your life?
What would it be?
Andrea Ward (23:06):
this is easy for me chips and salsa.
Yeah, chips and salsa.
Without a margarita on the sidewould be great, but chips and
salsa oh, I'd be the size of ahouse, but, um, I hate.
Chris Moore (23:21):
Everyone asks me what my death row meal and I
always want to say somethinglike amazing, like refined, or
something that shows off mypalate and how cultured I am.
I, I just love a burger.
I don't think you could.
If you have a good burger, thenI just think it hands down.
Scott Gordon (23:35):
That's for me yeah , who you trying to impress on
your last day on.
Chris Moore (23:38):
Yeah, no, that's it .
Andrea Ward (23:38):
I just just get me a burger, come on chips and
salsa is about as basic, so atleast we're not talking steak,
okay.
Scott Gordon (23:46):
Now, what's the best TV show or movie you've
seen recently?
Or, if you're not a movie or TVperson, the best book you've
read.
Andrea Ward (23:55):
I'm sure I've read a book, but I haven't watched TV
in a long time because, likeChris, we have between the two
of us we have five kids underthe age of what?
Eight?
There's not a lot, I would say.
I would say I've watched a lotof blippy and bluey recently
bluey right, uh, blippy andbluey, but uh, unfortunately I
don't get, I don't get a lot ofchance to do uh, much of the
(24:17):
other two I'm not ashamed to saythat I did cry in the new
episode of bluey it is.
Chris Moore (24:22):
if you haven't watched it, it will get you.
I promise you it will get you.
The new episode is when theymove houses is tough, it's a
tough one.
Andrea Ward (24:34):
See, this is why we're so perfectly aligned.
Chris Moore (24:37):
I wouldn't say it was my favorite thing to watch.
The Gentleman on Netflix isvery good if you want to watch
something.
It does not reflect Britishculture, culture in any way,
shape or form.
I could probably see that, butit is very good.
Andrea Ward (24:49):
That was um a lot of binge watching if I have to
give a big girl answer, it'd begriselda with uh sofia vagaro.
She was scary as anything inthat, and that's about as much
binge watching as I do that, orIndian matchmaker.
Scott Gordon (25:07):
Andrea and Chris, thank you so much for being here
.
Thank you.
Chris Moore (25:10):
Thank you so much.
Scott Gordon (25:11):
Providing current insights into the marketplace is
just one more way CRC Group isplacing you first.
Don't forget to subscribe andshare.
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