December 9, 2024 • 35 mins
Summary: Join hosts Amanda Knight and Scott Gordon as they engage with industry specialists Tyler O'Connor, Josh Anderson, and Michelle Earle to dissect the seismic shift from admitted carriers to the thriving Excess and Surplus (E&S) market. You’ll learn precisely why high-severity claims and social inflation are pushing human services organizations toward E&S solutions, especially during a mental health crisis. The conversation doesn’t shy away from the tough topics, particularly the thorny issue of underwriting abuse claims in the wake of reviver statutes. This episode also offers vital insights into how limited excess coverage options can be navigated, emphasizing the crucial role of collaboration between agents and brokers in constructing robust liability programs. Tune in to equip yourself with the knowledge and strategies needed to manage intricate human services market challenges effectively.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amanda Knight (00:00):
Welcome back to the CRC podcast, where we bring
you the latest insights andtrends from the world of
insurance.
I'm Amanda Knight, and todaywe're diving deep into the
evolving human servicesmarketplace.
It's a sector that has facedbig shifts in 2024, especially
as retail insurance agentsnavigate new challenges and
(00:21):
opportunities.
New challenges andopportunities.
It's a critical moment foragents to understand the nuances
of this market, and we have anall-star panel of guests to
share their expertise with ustoday.
Joining us in the studio isTyler O'Connor, senior Vice
President with CRC Birmingham.
We also have Josh Anderson, ahealthcare broker from our
Chicago team, and finally, we'rejoined by Michelle Earle, the
(00:44):
CEO of Omnishore ConsultingGroup, a specialist in
healthcare risk management and aleader in supporting human
services organizations.
This is the Placing you Firstpodcast from CRC Group.
Josh Anderson (00:55):
This podcast features news and insights from
a vast knowledge base of over5,100 associates who write more
than $35 billion in premiumannually.
Amanda Knight (01:04):
Plus, we give you the latest information on
what's happening at CRC this,this, this is the.
Placing you.
First podcast and now the hostsof the podcast, Amanda Knight
and Scott Gordon, Tyler, Joshand Michelle.
Welcome to the podcast, Thanks.
Tyler O'Connor (01:20):
Thank you, yeah, thank you Great to be here.
Amanda Knight (01:22):
Well, let's get right into it, Tyler.
Let's start with you.
2024 has marked a noticeableshift in the human services
market.
You know, historically it'sbeen dominated by admitted
carriers, but we're seeing astrong pivot toward E&S.
Can you sort of talk us throughwhat's driving that shift?
Tyler O'Connor (01:41):
Sure, I mean there's a major shift, is a good
word.
The admitted marketplace, whichis for decades really controlled
human and social service riskplacement, largely on a current
professional liability basis,largely on a package basis.
It's really driving a migration,kind of a forced migration, of
(02:02):
business into the E&Smarketplace.
So these admitted markets, whichcontinue to be strong but are
really making correctivemeasures on their books, which
means that they're refiningtheir books based on appetites,
venues, profitability, classselection and they are becoming
(02:24):
a great deal more selected,which means that the ENS
marketplace, which in a lot ofpeople's minds has been a place
of last resort, has now becomethe strategic place to be to
find coverage and try toreplicate coverage.
So the ENS platforms andwholesale brokers really have a
tremendous opportunity right nowto step in and assist at this
stage of the marketplace.
(02:44):
So the flexibility of the E&Smarketplace, while it's not
always perfect and it can behard to find solutions, is
really equipped to address someof these unique high risk
profiles that you see withincritical, what we think are
critical community organizationsyou know, human services
organizations beingorganizations that are
(03:05):
delivering some type of care,and social service organizations
which are not necessarilydelivering care but are really
contributing to the communitythrough programs like YMCA, boy
Scouts, girl Scouts, youthsports and things like that.
So the marketplace on the ENSside, where we live, is fielding
(03:26):
a lot of this risk for thefirst time in a long time, and
so we look forward to talkingabout it, because each risk is
unique and each risk right nowis unfortunately encountering
its own challenges in themarketplace.
Amanda Knight (03:39):
That makes sense, Michelle.
What are you seeing on your endwith Omnishore as this shift
toward E&S happens?
Michelle Earle (03:48):
Word on the street is that a lot of this is
being driven by severity, highseverity claims, and this is a
class of business that is verysensitive to social inflation.
And when I say the highseverity claims and losses, it's
not all PL.
Some of it is abuse and some ofit is hired and non-owned auto.
(04:10):
A lot of the admitted carriershave those packages, and so the
class of business gets blown upby one of the coverages.
But from our perspective, thepivot to E&S is crucial,
especially in a marketplacethat's grappling with the US
mental health crisis.
So mental health is a type ofcare being provided at every
(04:33):
point of the patient experience,and so, because of the growth
in mental health and behavioralhealth needs, it's led to more
facilities and services toaddress the demand, and that
presents our marketplace withnew and complex risks.
At OmniSure, we help facilitiesnavigate these shifts by
(04:54):
developing really strongprotocols to address specific
clinical risks and patientsafety concerns, while also
navigating the changingstandards of care, especially
those related to emergingtherapies.
So ENS gives insurers a greatflexibility to support these new
(05:15):
and unique needs.
Amanda Knight (05:17):
Josh, with this shift toward ENS, I know you're
also, you know, like Tyler ahealth care broker.
How is that shift impactingwhat you just see sort of on a
daily basis?
Josh Anderson (05:29):
Yeah, so the push from the admitted marketplace
into the ENS marketplace hasbasically encouraged us as
brokers to communicate moreeffectively with our clients.
So that can look a fewdifferent ways.
You know, kind of setting up inadvance, talking with our
agents about deals that are ontheir desk that aren't in the
ENS space right now and they maynot be in the ENS space in the
(05:51):
next year or two years.
But it's critical that theyhave those conversations with
their human services, socialservices, behavioral health,
having conversations with thoseclients in advance to set
realistic expectations.
The changes to the marketplaceand the admitted space at least
look a few different ways.
You know you have higher ratesor you're doing sublimits or
(06:13):
you're doing exclusions to someof your major exposures as well
as just cutting capacity overall.
You know we're seeing when.
You know when the admittedcarriers are staying in.
In most cases we're seeing a 30plus percent increase which
really changes the way that thepackage looks, you know, which
then ends up making ENS optionsthe most viable pathway to
(06:38):
Tyler's point truly getting intothe ENS space with strategic
placements, and we're seeing alot of it.
Amanda Knight (06:46):
All right, you guys have mentioned that you
know a lot of business is movingtoward ENS from the admitted
marketplace.
Are there any that come to mindthat are particularly
substantial, that you're seeingcome in right now or
particularly tough?
Josh Anderson (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Tyler mentioned a coupleearlier and kind of
distinguished between human andsocial services, having, you
know, the human care aspectversus more of like an oversight
aspect for the social services.
One of the big ones that we'reseeing come to our desk is the
foster care space Traditionallyhas been a non-admitted market
(07:21):
like the rest, and this has, youknow, severely been pushed to
us as, again, capacity being cut, non-renewing, and it's a very
venue-driven.
On this one there's severalvery difficult venues where a
lot of carriers are just anabsolute no-go and a lot of that
is due to legal and judicialdecisions in those venues.
(07:43):
You know the Northeast and theWest Coast in particular have
been very challenging in thisspace.
Tyler O'Connor (07:49):
Yeah, foster care is a risk that is coming in
very, very often.
We anticipate that it will comeeven more in 2025.
We expect continued, possiblyworsened, disruption in that
space, depending on the state.
For instance, there are acouple of states where a few MGU
(08:10):
carrier outfits are probablygoing to make significant
maneuvers on their foster carebook.
Already, for us in the ENSspace there's a limited amount
of capacity for placing 100%foster care risk.
Oftentimes it's a vicarious risk, mainly for the placement of
(08:31):
the child into a home where anytype of bodily injury or
emotional distress may occur.
Abuse is a massive concern forunderwriters in that way.
A massive concern forunderwriters in that way.
It's not invisible to them, itis in their losses and it is
showing up more and more intheir losses and the carriers
(08:51):
that are really shouldering mostof that risk in the marketplace
.
We've got to do a good job ofhelping them remain healthy and
viable in doing that.
So expectation setting infoster care, with foster care
submissions, is critical andthose organizations are near and
(09:11):
dear to everyone's heart.
I am a foster parent.
You know those organizationshave got to continue.
They provide just tremendousgoodwill to communities.
But it's unfortunate that theclaims that come out of those
are severe enough to reallyrestrict and change care
appetite.
Amanda Knight (09:30):
And shifting gears a little bit.
Michelle and you all three kindof just touched on this.
Actually, we talked about, youknow, social inflation, how
mental health is now sort ofbuilt into a lot of different
aspects of health care and withthat comes some emerging therapy
modalities right, new therapiesthat maybe we didn't see before
(09:51):
or aren't as regulated, likeketamine or psychedelics.
In the written companion piecethat goes with this podcast, we
talked about how use of those ison the rise.
What sort of unique risks dothose new emerging therapies
present for this sector?
Michelle Earle (10:08):
Well, it's a great question because these new
therapies are expanding andthere are a number of new
treatments that hold a lot ofpromise and are yet still being
studied in many ways, andbecause in healthcare and in
human services, we're all abouthelping others, we'll pull out,
you know, everything we can tomeet the needs of somebody with
(10:31):
a difficult to treat conditionlike PTSD or treatment resistant
depression, but they bringrisks that insurers are just
really now beginning tounderstand.
For instance, the ketamineclinics can present regulatory
and safety challenges.
There's so many different waysketamine is prescribed or taken,
(10:52):
and with psychedelics it's thesame.
Sometimes it's microdosing,sometimes it's in treatment
sessions, and there's just evenmore ambiguity and complexity
with each turn.
So add to that the fact thattech giants are joining the
healthcare ecosystem and there'sstill a staffing crisis out
(11:13):
there and private equity istargeting healthcare.
All these things are kind ofconverging.
So it's important, and we areadvising all of our clients to
adopt some really robust riskmanagement frameworks early on
and make sure that they haveaccess to sound clinical risk
(11:34):
management advice and not justone time advice, but on demand.
You need the answers when youneed them, and so for insurers,
it's about keeping up with theever changing landscape and the
ever changing standards,thoroughly evaluating how each
of the emerging therapies areadministered and then focusing
(11:56):
on a big piece of that, which ispatient selection criteria and
then also ensuring that theyhave the right professionals
with the right training andcredentialing handling these
treatments.
We get a number of calls on ourhelpline related to scope of
practice and the lines are justso blurry because of the new
(12:19):
treatments that are out therethat not everybody understands.
Amanda Knight (12:22):
Tyler, are these risks that, michelle, you know,
just talked about, somethingthat you're starting to see
reflected in claims in thissector?
Tyler O'Connor (12:31):
Yes, unfortunately, the claims really
come in pretty much all ofthese sectors, really the human
services so I kind of want tofocus there for a second where
care is being delivered asopposed to really where
oversight is being delivered ina social service setting.
So in a human services settingwe're talking about behavioral
health, mental health, substanceand addiction treatment centers
(12:52):
, youth centers, developmentallydisabled, organizations that
care for various aspects ofintellectual or developmental
disability, various aspects ofintellectual or developmental
(13:28):
disability, whether they areinpatient risk, where people
come and stay or reside for ashort time, business in certain
settings.
You can imagine where it's veryclose contact with people,
particularly youth, and thatleads to some pretty severe
claims.
We do see a balance of severityand frequency, unfortunately,
across the human services sector.
But the business is all comingin from years of being placed in
(13:51):
a very administratively easyway, meaning on a packaged basis
with an admitted carrier, often, again on that occurrence, pl,
professional liability coverageform, which allows you to report
claims to your carrier inperpetuity.
And if you think about abusebeing a loss driver and a real
(14:12):
area of sensitivity forunderwriters and for their
reinsurers, truly a lot of ithas to do with the fact that
these abuse claims are rearingtheir head across the board, the
industry, no matter the sector,no matter whether it's a youth
organization or an adultorganization.
And we've seen things likerevivership statutes put in
(14:36):
place which if you're not awareof those, it's something to look
into where revivership abuseclaims are essentially civil
lawsuits that can be brought byadult survivors of childhood
sexual abuse after the statuteof limitations has expired.
So states have allowed thesewhat's called revival statutes
(14:56):
which allow these survivors tofile claims after the statute of
limitations has expired.
So when a piece of businesscomes in, when an organization
comes in and say they have ahave had coverage in place since
1995, for instance, and the ensmarket is trying to honor a
retroactive date, you know, orplace new retro inception
(15:20):
coverage maybe the carrier is,the occurrence market is still
in business, but maybe not.
They could be on the hook for aclaim that is filed well beyond
the statute of limitations.
So it becomes much harder foran underwriter to properly
underwrite to abuse, which is avery tricky and kind of
(15:40):
invisible thing to do on thefront side and Michelle could
weigh in on this in terms of howpeople think about underwriting
to abuse, because organizationsnaturally are screening people,
they conduct training of people, they trust their people.
Otherwise the people would befired or relocated into settings
that would not create certaincircumstances, and so an
(16:04):
organization can do everythingthat they can possibly do to
follow the rules, and anunderwriter can check all the
they can possibly do to followthe rules, and an underwriter
can check all the boxes in theirunderwriting file and an abuse
claim can still come in, andwhen it comes in, it is not a
low settlement figure, it's ahigh defense dollar.
It's often a very highsettlement dollar often triggers
(16:25):
punitive damages.
Depending on the state.
They may be insurable, in whichcase your entire umbrella tower
, your entire liability programis at risk, and so abuse truly
is a massive thing.
That is arguably one of thehardest things to underwrite to,
and these reviver statutes incertain states you can imagine
(16:46):
that New York, new Jersey,california have made some of the
most significant changes inthis way, but with that type of
opportunity for abuse to be areal issue way down the road
past the statute of limitationsis one of the things that is
restricting that coverage, whichis one of the first things that
agents call to discuss with awholesale broker, because
(17:07):
they'll walk a piece of businessin and they'll call a
wholesaler once they realizewhat's happening with their
direct market and the directmarket is going to not renew the
business or they're going todramatically reduce the amount
of excess that they're going togive them this year, namely in
the way of abuse.
They call up a wholesale brokerand they say can you please
help us replenish the excesslimit this year?
(17:28):
And so most often you pleasehelp us replenish the excess
limit this year.
And so most often they'reasking to replenish the abuse
limit which is in themarketplace.
There's very few carriers youcan actually go to and say, hey,
can you please give me justexcess for abuse, monoline abuse
, we call it, and you can go dothat.
But it makes it very hard whenthere's only a few people doing
it.
So then you try to build outthe entire tower, or what's
(17:51):
happening is you're coming backsaying, look, the ens market
could actually provide an entiresolution here for the liability
line.
So what if we, what if weshowed you what a brand new
professional and generalliability with abuse program
looked like from the ground up?
And if you just say at thatpoint you're going to kind of
dismantle what was prior apackage, and so the agent will
(18:14):
be working to place the auto inthe property and the wholesale
broker will be working with themto provide solutions for the
PLGO and the abuse.
But across the way claims havecome in.
Addiction treatment presentssome really unfortunate and
gnarly claim scenarios, butabuse is the first thing people
want to talk about because itreally is a major pain point for
(18:37):
both underwriters and forclients.
Michelle Earle (18:39):
I just have to add you know Tyler's spot on
when it comes to the abuse.
We've had to develop somereally extensive guidelines to
implement in the human servicessector because of these claims.
And one of the things thatmakes it so difficult with these
revival statutes is that thelonger it's been since the
(19:01):
actual event occurred, the morelikely there are multiple
victims.
If it got swept under the rugand it's not been addressed for
that many years, that's whenmultiple victims start coming
out of the woodworks.
And sadly, some of these humanservices organizations don't
(19:21):
have good records.
They may not know if thecarrier is still in business.
They may not have a copy oftheir policy.
Things may have changed a lotin that many years.
We now have much better recordkeeping than we did 20, 30, 40,
50 years ago.
So yeah, tyler's spot on andpart of the checklist for the
(19:44):
retail brokers should be to lookand see do they have a good
history of their coverage?
Do they have somewhere thatthey can show?
In this year I had this policywith this carrier.
Tyler O'Connor (19:56):
Just so people understand how that coverage is
designed to work, is that whilea perpetrator may be named in
the lawsuit, you would like tohave a policy that is going to
obviously defend and providevicarious liability to the
insured organization itself.
The perpetrator, under a goodpolicy, should be defended until
(20:17):
the matter is finallyadjudicated, until that person
is proven to have committed whatis, at that point, a criminal
act.
At that point that perpetratoris not insurable because of the
criminal act.
So a good policy would providedefense for that perpetrator is
not insurable because of thecriminal act.
So a good policy would providedefense for the perpetrator up
until final adjudication butwould absolutely provide
vicarious liability for theinsured organization, like we
(20:40):
said, so long as they were notcomplicit and knew that this
person had a history or knewthat there were rumors of
something going on or somethinglike that.
So as long as they were notcomplicit, the insured
organization I can't speak toevery policy, but a good policy
would provide defense andvicarious liability for that
organization.
Amanda Knight (21:00):
So that's all fantastic insight.
Let's boil it down a little bitfor our retail agent partners,
Josh.
What are maybe a few key thingsthat you really want them to
either understand or know or beable to provide to you to be
able to help them as theirwholesale partner?
Josh Anderson (21:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We definitely want them to knowthat it's a changing
marketplace, as we've discussedfor the last several minutes,
you know, but also that it'sfluid, you know.
I think here at CRC we've donea very good job with our
carriers at getting them to kindof go where the business leads
us.
So some of these difficultclasses of business,
(21:38):
historically, you know, there'sonly a few markets.
We're starting to get more andmore markets on board, which is
important.
However, they're only going tolook at these deals for us if we
have good, comprehensivesubmissions that are complete
and full up front so that theycan fully review and have time
to work on them.
You know some of the thingsthat we really need right off
(21:59):
the bat.
You know we can't work off ofaccords.
We need true applications thatare driven towards this class of
business.
So behavioral health, humanservices type applications.
We're going to want to see theexpiring policies.
We're not trying to compete orcompare premiums here.
We're looking to, you know,maintain coverages, maintain
(22:19):
retro dates, make sure that ourpolicies match up to the
expiring out of the admittedmarket to the best of our
ability.
No policy is the same, but alot of those things we're
looking to match as best aspossible.
We're going to need loss runsand we can't just take two,
three years typically.
It's a tough class of business.
The tail on these is very long.
(22:40):
The maturation I know we talkedabout it a lot.
Tyler did with the abuse it canbe years and years and years
later, tens of years later.
So any loss runs at least fiveto seven years.
We prefer as far back as theretro at a minimum Narratives on
any significant loss.
Tell us a story.
We need to have that story upfront.
(23:02):
If there's a six-figure loss onthere, give us the story.
Tell us what happened.
Tell us what they've done sincethat loss to make sure that
that doesn't happen again.
These losses can get verydifficult, very high in cost.
But if we have a good narrative, a good story to tell, our
carriers are open to listening.
If they just see several sixfigure losses they're going to
(23:24):
decline it.
We need to be able to tell thestory.
Any sort of you know roster ofproviders that's always
important because you kind ofhave that social human services
mixed in with a medicalmalpractice exposure.
It's going to be important thatwe know you know the providers,
the specialty.
All of that you know.
We need to know the differencein inpatient and outpatient.
(23:46):
We have a lot of carriersthat'll do outpatient all day.
Inpatient gets a little bitmore difficult typically.
Inversely, we have some that'lldo outpatient but not inpatient
, and inpatient and notoutpatient.
So you know there's a mix, butwe need to know that breakout up
front to where we can prepareour underwriters appropriately.
You know.
(24:06):
Lastly, on kind of, you know thelist that I that I use as a
guideline is financials.
Some carriers really won't gotoo far without them.
I'm not saying that it'ssomething that we must have up
front, but it's something thatwe'll typically ask for during
it.
Ultimately, the moretransparent that we can be with
(24:27):
a deal to our carriers, thebetter response time that we're
going to get out of them and thebetter, or the more likely,
that they're going to be willingto work on these difficult
deals.
For us, we're almost calling infavors, you know, whenever we
work on these, every time thatwe call an underwriter.
So we need to do our best tohelp them as well, to make the
process as easy as possible, asstreamlined as possible.
(24:50):
So ultimately, we need from ourretailers just to be upfront.
Give us all the informationupfront as much as possible and
then just work through it withus.
Tyler O'Connor (24:58):
I totally agree.
I think the way to think abouthuman services risk in this
marketplace is it's a team sport, so there's going to be a lot
of work that goes into renewingeven a small account.
Here you might have a localrisk that the agency has been
proud to insure for a number ofyears.
It may be far from your biggestrevenue driving risk, but it
(25:22):
may be one of the flagshipaccounts in the entire agency
and it might be a small packagepolicy that going into this
marketplace is going to requirea tremendous amount of work and
so it's a team sport.
To Josh's point, and justknowing, okay, we are going to
most likely need to break theproperty and the auto from the
(25:43):
liability lines here we're goingto need to be flexible and
we're going to need to be wellin advance and advising
expectations and getting a senseand being in sync with our
client and with the wholesaleare two very different ends of
the spectrum often, but have gotto be managed through
(26:16):
conversation.
So it's a team sport in thatsense.
Oftentimes, when an account, asubmission, shows up on a
wholesaler's desk, one of thefirst things that we do like to
do is say thank you very muchfor the submission.
Can you please tell us yourthinking and expectations this
year, but also what's happened?
Why is it coming into themarketplace and who have you
(26:37):
spoken to?
And oftentimes we'll say, okay,well, here are our thoughts in
terms of strategic marketinghere.
Why don't you go approach someadditional markets?
Why don't you go approach andwe'll suggest a couple other
direct or admitted players?
We're going to go to all ofthese places so that the direct
(26:58):
admitted marketplace if that'swhere it's coming from then
that's a great first place tojust make sure you exhaust that
it can't be moved inside of thatmarketplace and we'll help you
understand or advise you someother places to try.
So, inside of that marketplace,and we'll help you understand
or advise you some other placesto try so that when that is
exhausted we have togetherexhausted that option.
It helps in the context of theend result because in the end
(27:20):
result, what we do want toalways be able to deliver is
that you are hopefully gettingthe most comprehensive coverage,
whether it's same or better,for the most competitive price
on this day.
Josh is absolutely right.
All of the quality submissionand a quality backstory on
what's driving the risk into theE&S market this year from its
(27:42):
incumbent carrier is criticaland just to work in tandem.
It's a team sport.
Michelle Earle (27:47):
I like that A team sport.
Tyler and Josh are exactlyright it is a team sport and my
advice is to be proactive withthe risk management as well.
Don't wait for a claim tohappen.
Engage with risk managementsupport early and ensure that
your clients are putting strongprotocols in place that will
open doors for you.
(28:08):
Omnisure.
Here.
We don't just assess a risk ata single point in time.
We stay engaged throughout thepolicy period to help clients
identify and prevent or mitigaterisks early, before there's a
claim.
So, for instance, we supportfacilities with policy and
procedure reviews, documentation, audits and guidance on
(28:33):
everything from safety protocolsto employee competency and
training, and this ongoingsupport can make a substantial
difference in securing bettercoverage terms.
Since the underwriters, theyoften look more favorably on
clients who take advantage ofall the resources and support at
(28:53):
their disposal to activelymanage the risk and prevent the
losses.
Amanda Knight (28:58):
So, josh Tyler, michelle, if I'm a retail agent
and I've got an account that Ineed someone like you to look at
, how do they get to MichelleTyler and Josh?
Tyler O'Connor (29:09):
So Michelle's done a great job and has earned
a tremendous amount of respectin the marketplace with insurers
, and so oftentimes insurerswill bring Michelle and OmniSure
and her team in or a similarrisk management company.
Oftentimes a carrier will tryto provide some type of
assistance or support withoutgetting in the way of doing
(29:33):
business, but be there to lendbest practice advice.
Omnishare, for instance, has atremendous 24-7 call hotline
that a lot of our clientsutilize to run things past them,
so you can reach out to themdirectly.
But oftentimes, through theirreputation in the marketplace,
insurers will bring them in aswell.
Michelle Earle (29:51):
Oftentimes, through their reputation in the
marketplace, insurers will bringthem in as well.
We often have retail brokersand wholesale brokers reach out
to us on behalf of thepolicyholders.
So we got a call from a retailbroker who we didn't know, we'd
never run into in the market,but he was big in the human
(30:13):
services space and he just losthis biggest account.
And he lost that big accountbecause the his competitor
brought OmniShore to the deal.
We don't have a contract withany retail brokers, so their
competitor brought the deal tothe table by using an ENS market
that we work with, which mayhave been how they went through
CRC.
(30:34):
But my advice is if the carrierthat they're with has risk
management services available,they should use them and then
show that they've used them, andif they don't, then they should
talk.
The retail broker should talkwith their wholesale broker and
say can we build risk managementinto this deal for my client?
(30:56):
You know I can be reached orour whole.
We have a nationwide network ofconsultants, all with different
skill sets.
Some of them are experts insuicide prevention, some of them
are experts in addictiontreatment.
Some of them are experts inpsychiatric inpatient care.
So when they reach out to ourhelpline via helpline at
(31:16):
omnisurecom or on the website orour 800 number, which is on the
website.
They will get an immediateresponse.
Amanda Knight (31:25):
Great advice all around.
And now that you've made itthrough the tough stuff, we've
got one last fun thing we liketo call rapid fire.
Nothing hard, nothing scary,just a couple of fun questions
to close out the show.
So just answer with whatevercomes to mind.
First, you know, halloween wasnot long ago.
The holidays are near, if notalready here by the time you're,
(31:47):
or past by the time you'relistening to this.
But with the holidays comescandy.
So what's your favorite holidaycandy and what do you feel is
trash candy that no one shouldbe forced to eat?
I know, for me trash candy iscandy corn.
No one will eat that at myhouse.
Michelle Earle (32:04):
Well, I'm going to say anything with crunch.
I love a good Butterfinger or aKit Kat and I think crunch
should be its own food group.
I really do Agree 100%.
Trash candy would bemarshmallow, anything with
marshmallow in it.
Amanda Knight (32:19):
All right, Josh Tyler, hit me with it.
Josh Anderson (32:21):
Yeah, I like more just traditional chocolate.
So, whether that's milkchocolate or dark chocolate, I'm
pretty simple when it comes tothat.
And then I agree, candy corn isnot good, and neither is
anything that's just a heavymarshmallow with more sugar
added to a marshmallow.
Those are two things that I'mnot interested in.
Tyler O'Connor (32:41):
You know it's funny, my kids eat all of the
candy except their.
Trash candy is my candy andmaybe it's become that, but I
just crush it on all of theAlmond Joys Because people
somehow still give Almond Joys Ithink they still come in those
big bags that you buy and no kideats it for whatever reason and
they're completely missing out.
(33:01):
So their trash candy is the oneI want and I freeze them.
Amanda Knight (33:06):
Yep.
At my house the kids want allthe fruity candy and don't care
about the chocolate, which isgreat for me.
So I hear that All right.
One more fun question before wewrap up the podcast.
Today you can watch one holidaymovie.
Do you pick Home Alone, elf orA Christmas Story?
Michelle Earle (33:25):
Well, definitely not Home Alone.
Home Alone is traumatizing forparents.
I actually did lose sight of myfive-year-old in New York City,
and so I will never watch thatmovie again.
I love A Christmas Story.
Tyler O'Connor (33:39):
I'll watch all three of those, whatever's on it
, doesn't matter where it iswhen it shows up on.
You know, whatever you can justparachute into all three of
those movies and, for whateverreason, just be hypnotized, all
three of them.
I'll just stop, just be likehypnotized all three of them.
Josh Anderson (33:53):
I'll just stop and watch.
They're all great movies.
I would go home alone as numberone and elf is number two,
that's if I'm ranking them andI'm the decision maker.
That's, those are the first twothere are no wrong answers here
.
Amanda Knight (34:03):
Well, thank you tyler, josh and michelle for
sharing your insights today andfor being good sports here at
the end.
This is a valuable conversation, especially for those
navigating the complex humanservices market, and and we
appreciate you being here.
And to our listeners thank youfor tuning in and we will see
everybody next time.
Welcome back to the CRC podcast, where we bring
you the latest insights andtrends from the world of
insurance.
I'm Amanda Knight, and todaywe're diving deep into the
evolving human servicesmarketplace.
It's a sector that has facedbig shifts in 2024, especially
as retail insurance agentsnavigate new challenges and
(00:21):
opportunities.
New challenges andopportunities.
It's a critical moment foragents to understand the nuances
of this market, and we have anall-star panel of guests to
share their expertise with ustoday.
Joining us in the studio isTyler O'Connor, senior Vice
President with CRC Birmingham.
We also have Josh Anderson, ahealthcare broker from our
Chicago team, and finally, we'rejoined by Michelle Earle, the
(00:44):
CEO of Omnishore ConsultingGroup, a specialist in
healthcare risk management and aleader in supporting human
services organizations.
This is the Placing you Firstpodcast from CRC Group.
Josh Anderson (00:55):
This podcast features news and insights from
a vast knowledge base of over5,100 associates who write more
than $35 billion in premiumannually.
Amanda Knight (01:04):
Plus, we give you the latest information on
what's happening at CRC this,this, this is the.
Placing you.
First podcast and now the hostsof the podcast, Amanda Knight
and Scott Gordon, Tyler, Joshand Michelle.
Welcome to the podcast, Thanks.
Tyler O'Connor (01:20):
Thank you, yeah, thank you Great to be here.
Amanda Knight (01:22):
Well, let's get right into it, Tyler.
Let's start with you.
2024 has marked a noticeableshift in the human services
market.
You know, historically it'sbeen dominated by admitted
carriers, but we're seeing astrong pivot toward E&S.
Can you sort of talk us throughwhat's driving that shift?
Tyler O'Connor (01:41):
Sure, I mean there's a major shift, is a good
word.
The admitted marketplace, whichis for decades really controlled
human and social service riskplacement, largely on a current
professional liability basis,largely on a package basis.
It's really driving a migration,kind of a forced migration, of
(02:02):
business into the E&Smarketplace.
So these admitted markets, whichcontinue to be strong but are
really making correctivemeasures on their books, which
means that they're refiningtheir books based on appetites,
venues, profitability, classselection and they are becoming
(02:24):
a great deal more selected,which means that the ENS
marketplace, which in a lot ofpeople's minds has been a place
of last resort, has now becomethe strategic place to be to
find coverage and try toreplicate coverage.
So the ENS platforms andwholesale brokers really have a
tremendous opportunity right nowto step in and assist at this
stage of the marketplace.
(02:44):
So the flexibility of the E&Smarketplace, while it's not
always perfect and it can behard to find solutions, is
really equipped to address someof these unique high risk
profiles that you see withincritical, what we think are
critical community organizationsyou know, human services
organizations beingorganizations that are
(03:05):
delivering some type of care,and social service organizations
which are not necessarilydelivering care but are really
contributing to the communitythrough programs like YMCA, boy
Scouts, girl Scouts, youthsports and things like that.
So the marketplace on the ENSside, where we live, is fielding
(03:26):
a lot of this risk for thefirst time in a long time, and
so we look forward to talkingabout it, because each risk is
unique and each risk right nowis unfortunately encountering
its own challenges in themarketplace.
Amanda Knight (03:39):
That makes sense, Michelle.
What are you seeing on your endwith Omnishore as this shift
toward E&S happens?
Michelle Earle (03:48):
Word on the street is that a lot of this is
being driven by severity, highseverity claims, and this is a
class of business that is verysensitive to social inflation.
And when I say the highseverity claims and losses, it's
not all PL.
Some of it is abuse and some ofit is hired and non-owned auto.
(04:10):
A lot of the admitted carriershave those packages, and so the
class of business gets blown upby one of the coverages.
But from our perspective, thepivot to E&S is crucial,
especially in a marketplacethat's grappling with the US
mental health crisis.
So mental health is a type ofcare being provided at every
(04:33):
point of the patient experience,and so, because of the growth
in mental health and behavioralhealth needs, it's led to more
facilities and services toaddress the demand, and that
presents our marketplace withnew and complex risks.
At OmniSure, we help facilitiesnavigate these shifts by
(04:54):
developing really strongprotocols to address specific
clinical risks and patientsafety concerns, while also
navigating the changingstandards of care, especially
those related to emergingtherapies.
So ENS gives insurers a greatflexibility to support these new
(05:15):
and unique needs.
Amanda Knight (05:17):
Josh, with this shift toward ENS, I know you're
also, you know, like Tyler ahealth care broker.
How is that shift impactingwhat you just see sort of on a
daily basis?
Josh Anderson (05:29):
Yeah, so the push from the admitted marketplace
into the ENS marketplace hasbasically encouraged us as
brokers to communicate moreeffectively with our clients.
So that can look a fewdifferent ways.
You know, kind of setting up inadvance, talking with our
agents about deals that are ontheir desk that aren't in the
ENS space right now and they maynot be in the ENS space in the
(05:51):
next year or two years.
But it's critical that theyhave those conversations with
their human services, socialservices, behavioral health,
having conversations with thoseclients in advance to set
realistic expectations.
The changes to the marketplaceand the admitted space at least
look a few different ways.
You know you have higher ratesor you're doing sublimits or
(06:13):
you're doing exclusions to someof your major exposures as well
as just cutting capacity overall.
You know we're seeing when.
You know when the admittedcarriers are staying in.
In most cases we're seeing a 30plus percent increase which
really changes the way that thepackage looks, you know, which
then ends up making ENS optionsthe most viable pathway to
(06:38):
Tyler's point truly getting intothe ENS space with strategic
placements, and we're seeing alot of it.
Amanda Knight (06:46):
All right, you guys have mentioned that you
know a lot of business is movingtoward ENS from the admitted
marketplace.
Are there any that come to mindthat are particularly
substantial, that you're seeingcome in right now or
particularly tough?
Josh Anderson (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Tyler mentioned a coupleearlier and kind of
distinguished between human andsocial services, having, you
know, the human care aspectversus more of like an oversight
aspect for the social services.
One of the big ones that we'reseeing come to our desk is the
foster care space Traditionallyhas been a non-admitted market
(07:21):
like the rest, and this has, youknow, severely been pushed to
us as, again, capacity being cut, non-renewing, and it's a very
venue-driven.
On this one there's severalvery difficult venues where a
lot of carriers are just anabsolute no-go and a lot of that
is due to legal and judicialdecisions in those venues.
(07:43):
You know the Northeast and theWest Coast in particular have
been very challenging in thisspace.
Tyler O'Connor (07:49):
Yeah, foster care is a risk that is coming in
very, very often.
We anticipate that it will comeeven more in 2025.
We expect continued, possiblyworsened, disruption in that
space, depending on the state.
For instance, there are acouple of states where a few MGU
(08:10):
carrier outfits are probablygoing to make significant
maneuvers on their foster carebook.
Already, for us in the ENSspace there's a limited amount
of capacity for placing 100%foster care risk.
Oftentimes it's a vicarious risk, mainly for the placement of
(08:31):
the child into a home where anytype of bodily injury or
emotional distress may occur.
Abuse is a massive concern forunderwriters in that way.
A massive concern forunderwriters in that way.
It's not invisible to them, itis in their losses and it is
showing up more and more intheir losses and the carriers
(08:51):
that are really shouldering mostof that risk in the marketplace
.
We've got to do a good job ofhelping them remain healthy and
viable in doing that.
So expectation setting infoster care, with foster care
submissions, is critical andthose organizations are near and
(09:11):
dear to everyone's heart.
I am a foster parent.
You know those organizationshave got to continue.
They provide just tremendousgoodwill to communities.
But it's unfortunate that theclaims that come out of those
are severe enough to reallyrestrict and change care
appetite.
Amanda Knight (09:30):
And shifting gears a little bit.
Michelle and you all three kindof just touched on this.
Actually, we talked about, youknow, social inflation, how
mental health is now sort ofbuilt into a lot of different
aspects of health care and withthat comes some emerging therapy
modalities right, new therapiesthat maybe we didn't see before
(09:51):
or aren't as regulated, likeketamine or psychedelics.
In the written companion piecethat goes with this podcast, we
talked about how use of those ison the rise.
What sort of unique risks dothose new emerging therapies
present for this sector?
Michelle Earle (10:08):
Well, it's a great question because these new
therapies are expanding andthere are a number of new
treatments that hold a lot ofpromise and are yet still being
studied in many ways, andbecause in healthcare and in
human services, we're all abouthelping others, we'll pull out,
you know, everything we can tomeet the needs of somebody with
(10:31):
a difficult to treat conditionlike PTSD or treatment resistant
depression, but they bringrisks that insurers are just
really now beginning tounderstand.
For instance, the ketamineclinics can present regulatory
and safety challenges.
There's so many different waysketamine is prescribed or taken,
(10:52):
and with psychedelics it's thesame.
Sometimes it's microdosing,sometimes it's in treatment
sessions, and there's just evenmore ambiguity and complexity
with each turn.
So add to that the fact thattech giants are joining the
healthcare ecosystem and there'sstill a staffing crisis out
(11:13):
there and private equity istargeting healthcare.
All these things are kind ofconverging.
So it's important, and we areadvising all of our clients to
adopt some really robust riskmanagement frameworks early on
and make sure that they haveaccess to sound clinical risk
(11:34):
management advice and not justone time advice, but on demand.
You need the answers when youneed them, and so for insurers,
it's about keeping up with theever changing landscape and the
ever changing standards,thoroughly evaluating how each
of the emerging therapies areadministered and then focusing
(11:56):
on a big piece of that, which ispatient selection criteria and
then also ensuring that theyhave the right professionals
with the right training andcredentialing handling these
treatments.
We get a number of calls on ourhelpline related to scope of
practice and the lines are justso blurry because of the new
(12:19):
treatments that are out therethat not everybody understands.
Amanda Knight (12:22):
Tyler, are these risks that, michelle, you know,
just talked about, somethingthat you're starting to see
reflected in claims in thissector?
Tyler O'Connor (12:31):
Yes, unfortunately, the claims really
come in pretty much all ofthese sectors, really the human
services so I kind of want tofocus there for a second where
care is being delivered asopposed to really where
oversight is being delivered ina social service setting.
So in a human services settingwe're talking about behavioral
health, mental health, substanceand addiction treatment centers
(12:52):
, youth centers, developmentallydisabled, organizations that
care for various aspects ofintellectual or developmental
disability, various aspects ofintellectual or developmental
(13:28):
disability, whether they areinpatient risk, where people
come and stay or reside for ashort time, business in certain
settings.
You can imagine where it's veryclose contact with people,
particularly youth, and thatleads to some pretty severe
claims.
We do see a balance of severityand frequency, unfortunately,
across the human services sector.
But the business is all comingin from years of being placed in
(13:51):
a very administratively easyway, meaning on a packaged basis
with an admitted carrier, often, again on that occurrence, pl,
professional liability coverageform, which allows you to report
claims to your carrier inperpetuity.
And if you think about abusebeing a loss driver and a real
(14:12):
area of sensitivity forunderwriters and for their
reinsurers, truly a lot of ithas to do with the fact that
these abuse claims are rearingtheir head across the board, the
industry, no matter the sector,no matter whether it's a youth
organization or an adultorganization.
And we've seen things likerevivership statutes put in
(14:36):
place which if you're not awareof those, it's something to look
into where revivership abuseclaims are essentially civil
lawsuits that can be brought byadult survivors of childhood
sexual abuse after the statuteof limitations has expired.
So states have allowed thesewhat's called revival statutes
(14:56):
which allow these survivors tofile claims after the statute of
limitations has expired.
So when a piece of businesscomes in, when an organization
comes in and say they have ahave had coverage in place since
1995, for instance, and the ensmarket is trying to honor a
retroactive date, you know, orplace new retro inception
(15:20):
coverage maybe the carrier is,the occurrence market is still
in business, but maybe not.
They could be on the hook for aclaim that is filed well beyond
the statute of limitations.
So it becomes much harder foran underwriter to properly
underwrite to abuse, which is avery tricky and kind of
(15:40):
invisible thing to do on thefront side and Michelle could
weigh in on this in terms of howpeople think about underwriting
to abuse, because organizationsnaturally are screening people,
they conduct training of people, they trust their people.
Otherwise the people would befired or relocated into settings
that would not create certaincircumstances, and so an
(16:04):
organization can do everythingthat they can possibly do to
follow the rules, and anunderwriter can check all the
they can possibly do to followthe rules, and an underwriter
can check all the boxes in theirunderwriting file and an abuse
claim can still come in, andwhen it comes in, it is not a
low settlement figure, it's ahigh defense dollar.
It's often a very highsettlement dollar often triggers
(16:25):
punitive damages.
Depending on the state.
They may be insurable, in whichcase your entire umbrella tower
, your entire liability programis at risk, and so abuse truly
is a massive thing.
That is arguably one of thehardest things to underwrite to,
and these reviver statutes incertain states you can imagine
(16:46):
that New York, new Jersey,california have made some of the
most significant changes inthis way, but with that type of
opportunity for abuse to be areal issue way down the road
past the statute of limitationsis one of the things that is
restricting that coverage, whichis one of the first things that
agents call to discuss with awholesale broker, because
(17:07):
they'll walk a piece of businessin and they'll call a
wholesaler once they realizewhat's happening with their
direct market and the directmarket is going to not renew the
business or they're going todramatically reduce the amount
of excess that they're going togive them this year, namely in
the way of abuse.
They call up a wholesale brokerand they say can you please
help us replenish the excesslimit this year?
(17:28):
And so most often you pleasehelp us replenish the excess
limit this year.
And so most often they'reasking to replenish the abuse
limit which is in themarketplace.
There's very few carriers youcan actually go to and say, hey,
can you please give me justexcess for abuse, monoline abuse
, we call it, and you can go dothat.
But it makes it very hard whenthere's only a few people doing
it.
So then you try to build outthe entire tower, or what's
(17:51):
happening is you're coming backsaying, look, the ens market
could actually provide an entiresolution here for the liability
line.
So what if we, what if weshowed you what a brand new
professional and generalliability with abuse program
looked like from the ground up?
And if you just say at thatpoint you're going to kind of
dismantle what was prior apackage, and so the agent will
(18:14):
be working to place the auto inthe property and the wholesale
broker will be working with themto provide solutions for the
PLGO and the abuse.
But across the way claims havecome in.
Addiction treatment presentssome really unfortunate and
gnarly claim scenarios, butabuse is the first thing people
want to talk about because itreally is a major pain point for
(18:37):
both underwriters and forclients.
Michelle Earle (18:39):
I just have to add you know Tyler's spot on
when it comes to the abuse.
We've had to develop somereally extensive guidelines to
implement in the human servicessector because of these claims.
And one of the things thatmakes it so difficult with these
revival statutes is that thelonger it's been since the
(19:01):
actual event occurred, the morelikely there are multiple
victims.
If it got swept under the rugand it's not been addressed for
that many years, that's whenmultiple victims start coming
out of the woodworks.
And sadly, some of these humanservices organizations don't
(19:21):
have good records.
They may not know if thecarrier is still in business.
They may not have a copy oftheir policy.
Things may have changed a lotin that many years.
We now have much better recordkeeping than we did 20, 30, 40,
50 years ago.
So yeah, tyler's spot on andpart of the checklist for the
(19:44):
retail brokers should be to lookand see do they have a good
history of their coverage?
Do they have somewhere thatthey can show?
In this year I had this policywith this carrier.
Tyler O'Connor (19:56):
Just so people understand how that coverage is
designed to work, is that whilea perpetrator may be named in
the lawsuit, you would like tohave a policy that is going to
obviously defend and providevicarious liability to the
insured organization itself.
The perpetrator, under a goodpolicy, should be defended until
(20:17):
the matter is finallyadjudicated, until that person
is proven to have committed whatis, at that point, a criminal
act.
At that point that perpetratoris not insurable because of the
criminal act.
So a good policy would providedefense for that perpetrator is
not insurable because of thecriminal act.
So a good policy would providedefense for the perpetrator up
until final adjudication butwould absolutely provide
vicarious liability for theinsured organization, like we
(20:40):
said, so long as they were notcomplicit and knew that this
person had a history or knewthat there were rumors of
something going on or somethinglike that.
So as long as they were notcomplicit, the insured
organization I can't speak toevery policy, but a good policy
would provide defense andvicarious liability for that
organization.
Amanda Knight (21:00):
So that's all fantastic insight.
Let's boil it down a little bitfor our retail agent partners,
Josh.
What are maybe a few key thingsthat you really want them to
either understand or know or beable to provide to you to be
able to help them as theirwholesale partner?
Josh Anderson (21:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We definitely want them to knowthat it's a changing
marketplace, as we've discussedfor the last several minutes,
you know, but also that it'sfluid, you know.
I think here at CRC we've donea very good job with our
carriers at getting them to kindof go where the business leads
us.
So some of these difficultclasses of business,
(21:38):
historically, you know, there'sonly a few markets.
We're starting to get more andmore markets on board, which is
important.
However, they're only going tolook at these deals for us if we
have good, comprehensivesubmissions that are complete
and full up front so that theycan fully review and have time
to work on them.
You know some of the thingsthat we really need right off
(21:59):
the bat.
You know we can't work off ofaccords.
We need true applications thatare driven towards this class of
business.
So behavioral health, humanservices type applications.
We're going to want to see theexpiring policies.
We're not trying to compete orcompare premiums here.
We're looking to, you know,maintain coverages, maintain
(22:19):
retro dates, make sure that ourpolicies match up to the
expiring out of the admittedmarket to the best of our
ability.
No policy is the same, but alot of those things we're
looking to match as best aspossible.
We're going to need loss runsand we can't just take two,
three years typically.
It's a tough class of business.
The tail on these is very long.
(22:40):
The maturation I know we talkedabout it a lot.
Tyler did with the abuse it canbe years and years and years
later, tens of years later.
So any loss runs at least fiveto seven years.
We prefer as far back as theretro at a minimum Narratives on
any significant loss.
Tell us a story.
We need to have that story upfront.
(23:02):
If there's a six-figure loss onthere, give us the story.
Tell us what happened.
Tell us what they've done sincethat loss to make sure that
that doesn't happen again.
These losses can get verydifficult, very high in cost.
But if we have a good narrative, a good story to tell, our
carriers are open to listening.
If they just see several sixfigure losses they're going to
(23:24):
decline it.
We need to be able to tell thestory.
Any sort of you know roster ofproviders that's always
important because you kind ofhave that social human services
mixed in with a medicalmalpractice exposure.
It's going to be important thatwe know you know the providers,
the specialty.
All of that you know.
We need to know the differencein inpatient and outpatient.
(23:46):
We have a lot of carriersthat'll do outpatient all day.
Inpatient gets a little bitmore difficult typically.
Inversely, we have some that'lldo outpatient but not inpatient
, and inpatient and notoutpatient.
So you know there's a mix, butwe need to know that breakout up
front to where we can prepareour underwriters appropriately.
You know.
(24:06):
Lastly, on kind of, you know thelist that I that I use as a
guideline is financials.
Some carriers really won't gotoo far without them.
I'm not saying that it'ssomething that we must have up
front, but it's something thatwe'll typically ask for during
it.
Ultimately, the moretransparent that we can be with
(24:27):
a deal to our carriers, thebetter response time that we're
going to get out of them and thebetter, or the more likely,
that they're going to be willingto work on these difficult
deals.
For us, we're almost calling infavors, you know, whenever we
work on these, every time thatwe call an underwriter.
So we need to do our best tohelp them as well, to make the
process as easy as possible, asstreamlined as possible.
(24:50):
So ultimately, we need from ourretailers just to be upfront.
Give us all the informationupfront as much as possible and
then just work through it withus.
Tyler O'Connor (24:58):
I totally agree.
I think the way to think abouthuman services risk in this
marketplace is it's a team sport, so there's going to be a lot
of work that goes into renewingeven a small account.
Here you might have a localrisk that the agency has been
proud to insure for a number ofyears.
It may be far from your biggestrevenue driving risk, but it
(25:22):
may be one of the flagshipaccounts in the entire agency
and it might be a small packagepolicy that going into this
marketplace is going to requirea tremendous amount of work and
so it's a team sport.
To Josh's point, and justknowing, okay, we are going to
most likely need to break theproperty and the auto from the
(25:43):
liability lines here we're goingto need to be flexible and
we're going to need to be wellin advance and advising
expectations and getting a senseand being in sync with our
client and with the wholesaleare two very different ends of
the spectrum often, but have gotto be managed through
(26:16):
conversation.
So it's a team sport in thatsense.
Oftentimes, when an account, asubmission, shows up on a
wholesaler's desk, one of thefirst things that we do like to
do is say thank you very muchfor the submission.
Can you please tell us yourthinking and expectations this
year, but also what's happened?
Why is it coming into themarketplace and who have you
(26:37):
spoken to?
And oftentimes we'll say, okay,well, here are our thoughts in
terms of strategic marketinghere.
Why don't you go approach someadditional markets?
Why don't you go approach andwe'll suggest a couple other
direct or admitted players?
We're going to go to all ofthese places so that the direct
(26:58):
admitted marketplace if that'swhere it's coming from then
that's a great first place tojust make sure you exhaust that
it can't be moved inside of thatmarketplace and we'll help you
understand or advise you someother places to try.
So, inside of that marketplace,and we'll help you understand
or advise you some other placesto try so that when that is
exhausted we have togetherexhausted that option.
It helps in the context of theend result because in the end
(27:20):
result, what we do want toalways be able to deliver is
that you are hopefully gettingthe most comprehensive coverage,
whether it's same or better,for the most competitive price
on this day.
Josh is absolutely right.
All of the quality submissionand a quality backstory on
what's driving the risk into theE&S market this year from its
(27:42):
incumbent carrier is criticaland just to work in tandem.
It's a team sport.
Michelle Earle (27:47):
I like that A team sport.
Tyler and Josh are exactlyright it is a team sport and my
advice is to be proactive withthe risk management as well.
Don't wait for a claim tohappen.
Engage with risk managementsupport early and ensure that
your clients are putting strongprotocols in place that will
open doors for you.
(28:08):
Omnisure.
Here.
We don't just assess a risk ata single point in time.
We stay engaged throughout thepolicy period to help clients
identify and prevent or mitigaterisks early, before there's a
claim.
So, for instance, we supportfacilities with policy and
procedure reviews, documentation, audits and guidance on
(28:33):
everything from safety protocolsto employee competency and
training, and this ongoingsupport can make a substantial
difference in securing bettercoverage terms.
Since the underwriters, theyoften look more favorably on
clients who take advantage ofall the resources and support at
(28:53):
their disposal to activelymanage the risk and prevent the
losses.
Amanda Knight (28:58):
So, josh Tyler, michelle, if I'm a retail agent
and I've got an account that Ineed someone like you to look at
, how do they get to MichelleTyler and Josh?
Tyler O'Connor (29:09):
So Michelle's done a great job and has earned
a tremendous amount of respectin the marketplace with insurers
, and so oftentimes insurerswill bring Michelle and OmniSure
and her team in or a similarrisk management company.
Oftentimes a carrier will tryto provide some type of
assistance or support withoutgetting in the way of doing
(29:33):
business, but be there to lendbest practice advice.
Omnishare, for instance, has atremendous 24-7 call hotline
that a lot of our clientsutilize to run things past them,
so you can reach out to themdirectly.
But oftentimes, through theirreputation in the marketplace,
insurers will bring them in aswell.
Michelle Earle (29:51):
Oftentimes, through their reputation in the
marketplace, insurers will bringthem in as well.
We often have retail brokersand wholesale brokers reach out
to us on behalf of thepolicyholders.
So we got a call from a retailbroker who we didn't know, we'd
never run into in the market,but he was big in the human
(30:13):
services space and he just losthis biggest account.
And he lost that big accountbecause the his competitor
brought OmniShore to the deal.
We don't have a contract withany retail brokers, so their
competitor brought the deal tothe table by using an ENS market
that we work with, which mayhave been how they went through
CRC.
(30:34):
But my advice is if the carrierthat they're with has risk
management services available,they should use them and then
show that they've used them, andif they don't, then they should
talk.
The retail broker should talkwith their wholesale broker and
say can we build risk managementinto this deal for my client?
(30:56):
You know I can be reached orour whole.
We have a nationwide network ofconsultants, all with different
skill sets.
Some of them are experts insuicide prevention, some of them
are experts in addictiontreatment.
Some of them are experts inpsychiatric inpatient care.
So when they reach out to ourhelpline via helpline at
(31:16):
omnisurecom or on the website orour 800 number, which is on the
website.
They will get an immediateresponse.
Amanda Knight (31:25):
Great advice all around.
And now that you've made itthrough the tough stuff, we've
got one last fun thing we liketo call rapid fire.
Nothing hard, nothing scary,just a couple of fun questions
to close out the show.
So just answer with whatevercomes to mind.
First, you know, halloween wasnot long ago.
The holidays are near, if notalready here by the time you're,
(31:47):
or past by the time you'relistening to this.
But with the holidays comescandy.
So what's your favorite holidaycandy and what do you feel is
trash candy that no one shouldbe forced to eat?
I know, for me trash candy iscandy corn.
No one will eat that at myhouse.
Michelle Earle (32:04):
Well, I'm going to say anything with crunch.
I love a good Butterfinger or aKit Kat and I think crunch
should be its own food group.
I really do Agree 100%.
Trash candy would bemarshmallow, anything with
marshmallow in it.
Amanda Knight (32:19):
All right, Josh Tyler, hit me with it.
Josh Anderson (32:21):
Yeah, I like more just traditional chocolate.
So, whether that's milkchocolate or dark chocolate, I'm
pretty simple when it comes tothat.
And then I agree, candy corn isnot good, and neither is
anything that's just a heavymarshmallow with more sugar
added to a marshmallow.
Those are two things that I'mnot interested in.
Tyler O'Connor (32:41):
You know it's funny, my kids eat all of the
candy except their.
Trash candy is my candy andmaybe it's become that, but I
just crush it on all of theAlmond Joys Because people
somehow still give Almond Joys Ithink they still come in those
big bags that you buy and no kideats it for whatever reason and
they're completely missing out.
(33:01):
So their trash candy is the oneI want and I freeze them.
Amanda Knight (33:06):
Yep.
At my house the kids want allthe fruity candy and don't care
about the chocolate, which isgreat for me.
So I hear that All right.
One more fun question before wewrap up the podcast.
Today you can watch one holidaymovie.
Do you pick Home Alone, elf orA Christmas Story?
Michelle Earle (33:25):
Well, definitely not Home Alone.
Home Alone is traumatizing forparents.
I actually did lose sight of myfive-year-old in New York City,
and so I will never watch thatmovie again.
I love A Christmas Story.
Tyler O'Connor (33:39):
I'll watch all three of those, whatever's on it
, doesn't matter where it iswhen it shows up on.
You know, whatever you can justparachute into all three of
those movies and, for whateverreason, just be hypnotized, all
three of them.
I'll just stop, just be likehypnotized all three of them.
Josh Anderson (33:53):
I'll just stop and watch.
They're all great movies.
I would go home alone as numberone and elf is number two,
that's if I'm ranking them andI'm the decision maker.
That's, those are the first twothere are no wrong answers here
.
Amanda Knight (34:03):
Well, thank you tyler, josh and michelle for
sharing your insights today andfor being good sports here at
the end.
This is a valuable conversation, especially for those
navigating the complex humanservices market, and and we
appreciate you being here.
And to our listeners thank youfor tuning in and we will see
everybody next time.
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