January 12, 2024 • 40 mins
Prepare to navigate the treacherous terrain of Amazon Seller suspensions with none other than Lesley Hensell, co-founder of Riverbend Consulting. As we chat, Lesley shares her wealth of knowledge and practical tips, from her impressive career in business consulting to her hands-on Amazon selling experiences. Her insights are a beacon for sellers lost in the Amazonian jungle of complex regulations, guiding them back to the path of success. We also delve into her admirable humanitarian endeavors and the buzz around her upcoming book, "The Amazon Incubator," a must-have for any Amazon entrepreneur looking to conquer the marketplace.
In Lesley's words, this book is really more about making Amazon serve Amazon Sellers and their goals. What do you, as an Amazon Seller, want out of Amazon? How do you choose your method of selling? Are you a hustler who wants a side hustle and this is never going to be your main business? Are you a brand builder? Are you someone who wants to be a remote worker? Lesley walks sellers through how to choose what works for them and their personal goals that they can support sustainably over time.
Lesley shares tales of extreme suspensions, like the seller who inadvertently listed grenades and how they made their comeback. She wraps up with strategic insights on optimizing an Amazon business and the smart outsourcing of key tasks to refine operations, highlighting the importance of developing strong SOPs and leveraging Amazon advertising to make products stand out.
To learn more about Lesley and Riverbend Consulting, please visit https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesleyhensell/
https://riverbendconsulting.com/
Want to chat with us about this podcast? Send us a text message here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Planet Amazon podcast with Adam
Shaffer, where we explore theworld of Amazon and other
e-commerce marketplaces.
Join us as we delve into thelatest strategies and tactics
for successful selling on theworld's largest online
marketplace.
Adam Shaffer (00:17):
Hello, I'm Adam Shaffer and welcome to Planet
Amazon, where we talk about allthings about Amazon.
Today we have a great guest.
I'm going to talk about somegreat Amazon topics and an
awesome new book that's comingout that you guys are going to
need to get because it's a musthave, for sure.
So I want you to introduce andget things going and introduce
(00:38):
you to Lesley Hensell.
Lesley is co-founder ofRiverbend Consulting, who we've
met because we've actually metwith them to try and help us
with some stuff in the past.
They have 85 employees and theysolve problems for e-commerce
sellers.
In my case, it was Amazon.
Lesley oversees RiverbendServices team and she has
(01:00):
personally helped hundreds ofsellers get suspended accounts
and agents up and running onAmazon, which is a very hard
thing to do and is verycomplicated, and you need to
know how to do it, and Lesleyand her team know this.
She's been an Amazon seller formore than a decade and what I
(01:21):
learned about Lesley is she's alifelong Longhorn fan and she
earned a bachelor's degree injournalism and an MBA from the
University of Texas at Austin.
She volunteers for a Wish withWings, a Wish granting
organization for little Texanswith a life-threatening
conditions, and she serves onthe board of directors for
(01:43):
Halley's Heroes, which fundsbone marrow matches and medical
research for kids with cancerand critical illnesses, and with
all that, she just wrote a bookwhich is amazing.
Well, welcome to the show,Lesley.
Lesley Hensell (01:58):
Thanks so much, Adam.
I'm thrilled to be here.
Adam Shaffer (02:00):
Wow, wow.
You've done a lot and you do alot.
But again, where I met youoriginally from James Thompson,
who introduced us together, andwe talked to you about some
things that we might need helpwith.
But I know from the circuitthat you've been helping tons
and tons of sellers on Amazonfix some of the problems, and so
I definitely want to talk aboutyour book, but let's first talk
(02:23):
about you and the biz.
So tell us I mean, I did thatintroduction, but give us the
real story, give us the LesleyLesley
Lesley Hensell (02:31):
So I really care about one thing.
I'm very boring and very simple.
I care about kids, andespecially my own kids.
I actually started as a selleron Amazon in 2010 because my
older kid is on the autismspectrum.
I was a full-time businessconsultant at the time and my
kiddo was failing at school andwe decided to homeschool him.
(02:54):
But when you do a whole lot ofhomeschooling at therapy a kid
who needs therapy every singleday it's very expensive, and so
I couldn't just quit my job inhomeschool.
Even with my husband working,we had to pay for all this
therapy Amazon, and so one ofthose original Amazon mommies
that the reason I started doingit was for my kids, and so my
(03:14):
husband would work during theday.
He'd come home, I would gosource inventory and then on the
weekends we would ship it allto Amazon.
Adam Shaffer (03:22):
What were you selling?
What were you selling?
Lesley Hensell (03:25):
So that was back in the Wild West days.
Right when you could do, youcould sell anything.
So I would source all kinds ofgarbage that now you can't get
away with selling, likeliquidation inventory from the
banana box grocery stores, and Iwent to old school book sales
like library book sales, andwould buy thousands of books
(03:46):
that we would flip.
So hard work, backbreaking work, but a great way for us to pay
the bills and me be able to stayhome and be focused on my kiddo
.
It was fantastic and duringthat I met a lot of other
settlers and some of them werepeople who got in trouble with
Amazon, had problems with Amazonand because of my old school
(04:09):
business consulting background,that was a niche that I could
move into and start helpingsellers instead of other kinds
of businesses.
Adam Shaffer (04:16):
So that's great.
So you kind of shifted fromselling to now consulting and
helping.
And I know you guys do a lot ofstuff at River Bend and I don't
mind.
You know you could plug the biz.
I don't mind that at all.
I think it's great because yourservice is great.
But the biggest thing that whenI think of you guys, I think of
oh man, I got an ASIN suspended, I got millions of dollars of
(04:40):
inventory sitting up at Amazon.
I can't actually just pull itout of there and how do I get
this thing going again?
I mean, and that's kind of yoursweet spot.
So tell us about the sweet spotof your business and then you
can talk about the otherservices.
Lesley Hensell (04:56):
So suspended ASINs and suspended accounts is
where we meet most of ourclients and a lot of folks.
When their account goes down ortheir ASIN is suspended, they
try and appeal it firstthemselves, and they may or may
not be successful.
When they aren't, they'rereally not sure what to do,
because Amazon holds all of itsinvestigative methods as
(05:16):
proprietary data.
They don't tell you, they don'tgive you a lot of hints,
they're not super helpful andsometimes you're breaking rules
that you don't even know you'rebreaking, or it's a false
positive, and with falsepositives, sometimes you really
need someone outside of yourbusiness to help you walk
through how to solve that.
(05:36):
Amazon is not seller friendly.
They talk about being the mostcustomer-centric business on
earth, but they are notseller-centric.
And because, when you thinkabout it, my business should not
even really exist.
We should not be here.
We're only here because it isso difficult to deal with Amazon
.
So that's what we do.
(05:56):
We are in the trenches withclients.
We analyze their business fromthe outside, help them figure
out what the problems are andwhen those appeals don't work,
we help them escalate inside ofAmazon to get the issue fixed.
Adam Shaffer (06:08):
So there's got to be a common story that you see.
I'm sure there's the odd stuff,but what's the main reason?
You think that, or you'reseeing that Amazon sellers are
getting suspended or havinglistings knocked down.
Lesley Hensell (06:19):
The top ones right now for accounts.
It's linked to accounts and alot of those are false positives
.
So that's where Amazon believesthat your account is somehow
related to an account that isnot allowed to sell on Amazon
anymore.
That might be an account youhad 20 years ago when you were
in a completely different placein your life.
It might be some old roommatesaccount, or it could be someone
(06:41):
you don't even know and it's afalse positive.
It is a bad investigation andyou have to prove the negative
and newbie, something.
That is you know how everythingold is new again, inauthentic
is new again.
So back when I first startedworking on appeals eight, nine
years ago, inauthentic was thenumber one reason you got
suspended and then that kind ofwent away and Amazon would just
(07:04):
suspend your ASIN forinauthentic.
That's gone on for years.
Well, now inauthentic is backfor account level and in some
cases they are accusing peopleof counterfeit and stolen goods.
That's really tough.
Adam Shaffer (07:16):
Yeah, I mean, when they get it right, it's awesome
.
But we've had it where it wascompletely legitimate.
We're authorized by the, we'reselling it for a brand, the
inventory is fine and they'resaying, no, it's counterfeit and
we're not Like, here's all theinformation and it still took us
a month to get the productfixed.
So are you seeing more falsepositives or more legitimate
(07:43):
stuff?
Lesley Hensell (07:45):
So there's plenty of both to go around.
In general, what I've seen overtime remains true and about a
third of the cases that come tous, our clients did the bad
thing.
And about a third of them theymade a mistake or they operated
their business poorly in a waythat had a bad result.
They didn't really do somethingbad and evil, they just there
(08:09):
were mistakes made and itresulted in a suspension.
And about a third of the timethey really didn't do anything
wrong and we have to convinceAmazon of that.
Adam Shaffer (08:18):
So you don't have to tell us the secret sauce.
But how the heck do you do itLike?
What do you?
What's some of the basic thingsyou do to help them get
unsuspected?
Lesley Hensell (08:27):
So a really important thing to know when
you're communicating with Amazonis to remove 90% of the emotion
.
People get very upset and angryor sad, and that is a
reasonable response.
But when you correspond withAmazon, you have to remember
this is just someone's jobreading these letters and trying
(08:49):
to follow their SOPs.
So emotion has to be removed.
Except for Gali.
I'm really upset.
I'm afraid I'm gonna lose mybusiness.
Those kinds of statements Alsothey don't care how long you've
been in business, they don'tcare how much you sell on Amazon
.
They don't care about any ofthat.
I'll leave all that out.
A lot of how we solve theproblem is we tell Amazon how to
(09:11):
solve the problem.
So we say, hey, this is whatyou said we did, here are the
things we've done to fix it andhere's what we need from you.
That's essentially the formula.
So, like when we haveescalations, that we go to
different teams, or even incases in everyday business with
Amazon where you can't get themto do what you need them to do,
(09:32):
in a case, you need to explainhere's my problem.
Here are the steps I took tofix it and they didn't work.
So I need your help.
Please do this thing.
It also helps we have a lot ofex-Amazonian employees, so they
know a lot of times the magicwords of the internal process,
or what they refer to it, insideAmazon that mere mortals
(09:54):
outside of Amazon like me don'tknow.
Adam Shaffer (09:56):
I was gonna ask if you have like a go-to at Amazon
that you go to, but they turnthe people over so often.
But I don't know, is thatsomething you guys have?
Lesley Hensell (10:03):
So it's really not kosher to go to sources
inside of Amazon.
They're especially now becausethere have been several
consultants in the business whohave paid bribes to people
inside of Amazon and now haveconvictions for doing so.
So we have to really never gothat route, because we never
(10:25):
wanna have that appearance ofimpropriety, even if we're just
asking questions.
So what we do is we just helpour clients.
Amazon also won't speak tothird parties about an account.
They only wanna hear from theaccount owner.
So we help our clients with theright language, the right email
addresses, the right requestsfrom Amazon.
(10:46):
They do the back and forthcommunicating, but we fed them
all the information they need.
Adam Shaffer (10:51):
We've had some friends in the industry that
actually had to go to legal.
Do you guys ever get involvedwith that at all?
Is that not part of it?
Lesley Hensell (10:59):
So we have certain cases that we do
escalate to the Amazon legalteam.
We have times when we work witha client's attorney and we'll
actually go both routes at thesame time.
So we will take their legaldocuments, help them, Amazonify
them in some ways and they willsend to legal, and then we go to
(11:20):
the non-legal departments atAmazon.
Those are few and far betweenand usually specifically around
legal issues.
Generally speaking, once you'vebrought an attorney in,
Amazon's like whoa not talkingto you anymore.
So unless it's something thatbelongs in the illegal arena,
like you've been accused of acrime at Amazon with your Amazon
(11:42):
account, or like moneylaundering or, if you like,
intellectual property issuesthose are appropriate to bring
in legal.
A lot of times for intellectualproperty we'll have an opinion
letter written by an attorneyand then present that along with
the appeal.
So, but for the most part,using a lawyer just makes the
Amazon back off and say nottalking to you anymore, bye.
Adam Shaffer (12:04):
So two no-nos don't go directly to talk to
your friends at Amazon and onceyou get legal, it changes the
game a little bit, it changesthe relationship.
So I get it for sure.
So let's note that the otherquestion I had is you know, I
just wanna live a clean, happylife and not have problems.
What should we do to make surewe stay out of trouble?
(12:27):
Like, how do you avoid this?
Lesley Hensell (12:29):
So one interesting thing Amazon has put
in place in the last couple ofyears is they have this new
account health rating and if yougo into your Amazon account and
you look under performance, ithas the scorecard.
And that scorecard listseverything that they consider
bad that you did in your account, and so those might be
(12:49):
intellectual property violationsor accusations have been
authentic, whatever those mightbe.
It's really important.
So used to, before they hadthis scheme, I didn't tell
people to appeal every ASIN.
Now, unfortunately, I do.
It is really important thatevery ASIN that pops up in there
you appeal.
It doesn't always take a ton ofwork.
(13:11):
A lot of times all they want isyour invoices.
Submit the invoices because ifyou are responsive to them, you
are showing that you care andthat you want to solve the
problem.
And the other important thing Irecommend is that you look at
voice of the customer all thetime.
I know there's lots of falsepositives in there, so, believe
(13:33):
me, I get that there's so muchgarbage in voice of the customer
, but there's also a lot of gooddata and sometimes you can
solve serious problems with yourASINs before they come to the
point of enforcement and alsoimprove your profitability
because you solve those problems.
Adam Shaffer (13:49):
You know, I mean, maybe it's just me, but I used
to worry and I stopped worryingabout it because there's no way
to deal with it, but sending aninvoice, we always used to think
, oh, so Amazon's now going toknow our source, they're going
to have all the information,they're going to know what we
pay for.
It Is that?
Is it just like me and myparanoia, or do you think that's
any of that's real?
Lesley Hensell (14:08):
So my rule with Amazon is it's not paranoia if
they're really out to get you.
So there's only one situationwhere that is something to worry
about, and that is with privatelabel products.
The good news is Amazon has nowbeen caught and everyone knows
(14:29):
it, and it's part of the FTClitigation against them that
they have in the past takensupplier invoices for private
label products, gone to thosesuppliers, knocked off the
products, created an AmazonBasics version and now they've
gotten in trouble for it.
So at this point in time Idon't think that's a worry,
(14:50):
because the daylight has beenshined onto that issue and two
years ago I wouldn't say that.
Adam Shaffer (14:57):
Yeah, okay, I feel better now.
Thank you, Lesley.
And then you know I see so muchweird stuff out there.
If you want to call them blackhats, like, what should the
sellers know about black hatsthat are out there?
You live this.
Lesley Hensell (15:12):
If you're new to Amazon, there are certain
categories that you can stayaway from that tend to have many
more black hats and competitiveproblems.
The number one most dangerouscategory is supplements.
I know supplements areextremely attractive because the
margins are amazing, which isalso why they have all the black
hats.
So supplements are reallydifficult.
(15:33):
A lot of electronics also has alot of black hat activity from
overseas and electronics.
That's the first thing to know.
Secondly, is you've got to dobrand registry.
If you have your own privatelabel products, your own branded
products, if you don't gothrough the brand registry
process, you're just asking forit because people will knock off
(15:55):
your products and there'snothing you can do.
If you go through brandregistry, at least you have your
trademark.
That you've done.
Amazon has a record of yourbrand and you can do something
to try and protect yourselves.
There's not really a defenseagainst black hat, except you
have to have someone monitoringyour account all the time.
So if you don't want to be aslave to your account, which you
(16:19):
don't want to be, you need a VA.
You need some other team memberwho is in your account every
day looking for any kind ofactivity that speaks to a black
hat.
Adam Shaffer (16:30):
Wow, good info.
To wrap up on the suspensionstuff, just for fun, what's been
the most difficult or weirdestsuspension you've been able to
solve and win?
Lesley Hensell (16:48):
The most ridiculous suspension yeah the
most ridiculous one.
Because they never should havebeen reinstated, and I got them
back in one appeal.
It was a seller who listedgrenades hand grenades on Amazon
.
Come on yes.
So what they did was they werea Sports and Outdoors seller and
(17:09):
they were doing blind dropshipping.
That's the approved kind ofdrop shipping, where you have a
supplier that they are shippingall the orders for you under
your storefront name.
And they uploaded an entireSports and Outdoors catalog from
a supplier who sold weapons,and so he had gun parts, he had
(17:29):
all the illegal knives and hehad items that are only sold to
the federal government lawenforcement agencies, including
grenades of various kinds.
The whole freaking catalog like15,000 listings.
He just uploaded it, and so Igot him to take down all the
listings.
We appealed and we got him back.
Adam Shaffer (17:48):
So Amazon suspended this seller because
they uploaded grenades.
He could never Could he havesupplied the grenades.
Lesley Hensell (17:58):
So he could have sold one on Amazon, but his
supplier would not have shippedit Because that would mean that
they're a federal firearmsdealer, and a federal firearms
dealer isn't going to drop agrenade in the mail to Adam
Schaefer.
They know that they're onlygoing to ship those to
(18:18):
governmental agencies, but hestill uploaded and created the
listings.
It's just like if you uploadeda listing for cocaine.
It's really the same kind ofthing, right.
Adam Shaffer (18:26):
Well, you probably get a lot of demand, but
anyways, tough to shift and I'mnot looking forward to the
grenades showing up, but itwould be pretty cool to get.
Wow, that's wild.
So let's change the topic,because you're so busy with your
family and your business, butsomehow you wrote a book.
(18:47):
But then I found out thatyou've been writing books,
you've been a writer for quitesome time.
So give us a little story onyour writing background and then
tell us about the book.
The Amazon Incubator.
Lesley Hensell (18:58):
So my background .
My first jobs out of collegewere as a reporter, and I worked
as a business reporter.
I was a sports reporter, I wasa general like murders and fires
reporter on the city desk, didall the things and then
gradually moved over intobusiness pursuits.
(19:19):
Well then, when I had littlekids, I wanted to be home with
them and so I started doing aton of freelance writing because
that is a great way to make aliving and not have to be on
someone else to schedule whenyou've got toddlers hanging on
your legs.
So I would go straight magazinearticles and news pieces and
advertorial.
(19:39):
And then I started ghostwritingbooks and I go through several
books for business owners,lawyers, advocates out there,
various subjects and had a greattime doing it.
But it's it's really fun nowbecause all those books that I
wrote, none of them ever had myname on them.
So gotta admit it's exciting,after you've written hundreds of
(20:02):
thousands of words, for otherpeople, to write a book of your
own and actually have yourbyline.
I was very fortunate that I hada publisher contact me out of
the blue and that my editor hadbeen at an Amazon conference
where I was a speaker at theAccelerate Conference in Salt
(20:22):
Lake City and he had seen mespeak there and said I am
looking for someone to write abook about how to sell on Amazon
.
I think it's an underservedcategory in business books.
Most of the stuff isself-published not that there's
anything wrong with that but itdoesn't have any support of a
real publisher.
And so are you interested andhe'd also seen that I've been a
(20:44):
writer in the past I was likeheck, yeah.
So we wrote this book.
It's with Skyhorse Publishingand it's distributed by Simon
and Schuster and it comes outJanuary 23rd and it is called
the Amazon Incubator Grow yourBusiness or Hatch a New One.
Adam Shaffer (21:01):
I already pre-ordered it already this
morning.
So I'm very excited and so Imean how long did it take you to
write this?
Because I mean, I think aboutit like what do you write?
A page a day?
Lesley Hensell (21:13):
So it took me about five months to create the
first draft and what?
I'm a big believer in timeblocking, so that's the only way
that I manage all of mydifferent obligations.
I have so many different hatsthat I wear inside of Riverbend,
that I've got my Amazon sellerbusiness, then I've got the kids
, then I've got my nonprofitobligations, so the only way I
(21:35):
make it through the day is tohave these blocks of time.
So I would block off two hoursa day, monday, wednesday, friday
, and then four hours on theweekend, and that's how I got it
knocked out.
Adam Shaffer (21:48):
So you did four hours on the weekend.
I mean I can't get a minute onthe weekend without somebody on
top of me making me take themsomewhere or go to gymnastics or
tennis or whatever.
That's amazing.
But I mean I do a time blockand then I wind up doing
something else.
So you're very disciplined,very impressed Cool.
Lesley Hensell (22:07):
It's taken me several years of using time
blocking to get where I actuallydo the thing Seriously.
And you know what I've done,also on Slack.
I know we are all slaves toSlack, those of us who work in
large organizations.
I've muted all these channelsand said if you at me I'll
answer, but otherwise I'mignoring you.
So I've had to do a lot ofadjustment to my other work
(22:29):
mechanisms so I can focus.
Adam Shaffer (22:31):
I got to copy that , so tell us about the book.
I mean it's cool, it's aboutAmazon, but it's not like your
typical get rich quick on Amazonbook right?
Lesley Hensell (22:43):
And that's really what I'm most excited
about, because there are so manycourses out there and methods
and you know you can make tonsof money in four hours a week
and a lot of these guys who wantyou to get a Lamborghini like
the goal is to get a Lamborghiniand a great watch.
My book is really more aboutmaking Amazon serve you and your
(23:06):
goals.
What do you want out of Amazon?
How do you choose your methodof selling?
So, are you a hustler who wantsa side hustle and this is never
going to be your main business?
Are you a brand builder?
Are you someone who wants to bethat remote worker?
Any of those will work onAmazon.
(23:26):
So I kind of walk you throughhow to choose what works for you
and your personal goals not mygoals, not some course creators
goals your goals and then buildthat Amazon business that can
support those goals over timesustainably.
Adam Shaffer (23:41):
So you got to figure out where you want to get
to, what's your goal?
Because if you're not willingto commit you know 40 hours a
day to this thing, you knowwhat's it going to be.
And is it a hobby, is it a getrich quick scheme?
What are you trying to do?
And then what are you trying tosell?
I imagine do you try to giveadvice on what to sell and what
not to sell?
Lesley Hensell (24:03):
Yes, absolutely.
And I also talk about timecommitments, like you're saying,
and what it takes to get todifferent goals on Amazon.
Like, if you want to be someonewho's opening a new brand every
six months and adding newproducts every few weeks, that
is a full time job.
But if no one sits down andexplains it to you, you're not
(24:24):
going to really get it.
And Amazon I think part of whatis so challenging is this whole
build.
An e-commerce business model hasonly been around for a blip in
time.
There have been accountingfirms for hundreds of years in
Europe.
Right, these things haveexisted.
We all know how lawyering works, but the idea of how to run an
(24:46):
e-commerce business as a real,viable business is relatively
new.
I've met way too many sellers,and this is part of my
motivation.
I've met so many sellers who'vereally hurt themselves because
they didn't set up theirbusiness with forethought and
they didn't set it up as a realbusiness, like, let's set up
your books, let's account foryour time, so at the end of the
(25:08):
year you actually know if youmade a profit, or how about this
?
How about you know every monthif you made a profit?
The number one mistake forAmazon sellers is they don't
actually do their books.
So this book walks you throughsome of those basics at the
beginning, but then also somemore advanced strategies too, so
you can have a life.
A lot about building SOPs andthen how to outsource and who to
(25:33):
outsource to, how to make thosechoices so that you're not just
a slave to this business 24-7.
Adam Shaffer (25:39):
I was just about to ask you know, what's your
thoughts on outsourcing?
Obviously, your firm and ourcompany is around to help brands
and people grow on Amazon, butwhat I see is like you've got to
be so good at so many differentdisciplines.
You need some help.
I think you need help anyway.
So what's your thoughts on that?
(26:01):
Because you've got to be goodat merchandising, on copywriting
, on creative, on advertising,on logistics, on all of that.
So what do you say on that?
Lesley Hensell (26:14):
So there's a service offering out there
called reimbursements and it'swhere a company and our company
does this, where Amazon losesyour inventory or they don't
receive it, and then thesecompanies file cases and they
get your money back.
I have never filed areimbursement case in my
business because I have someonewho does it for me, because it
involves a whole bunch ofreports and spreadsheets that I
(26:37):
have no interest in learning howto do.
And that's because I'm good atthe copywriting.
So why would I spend my time onthe thing that I am not good at
spreadsheets when I can focuson the things I am good at, even
in Riverbend?
I'll tell you a couple ofmonths ago I hired a personal
assistant, which I've never hadone before, because I couldn't
(27:00):
figure out how to delegateappropriately to someone.
Now I delegate everything elsein my business but, like the
personal stuff, I couldn'tfigure it out.
So I said I'm going to solvethis.
We're going to hire someone.
Great.
It has changed my life for thebetter, finding the right person
in that position.
Running an Amazon business isjust like that.
You need to understand eachprocess and understand the
(27:23):
fundamentals of it and, in a lotof cases, build the SOP for it,
or you can follow SOPs that arein the book for it.
But then you've got to find atrusted resource you can hand
that off to, because otherwiseyou're not focusing on what
makes you money.
You make money when you developnew products.
You make money at the buy.
You don't make money when yousell things.
(27:45):
You make money at the buy ifyou don't overpay, so making
great deals.
You make money when you developa brand that people are excited
about.
You promote it well.
You merchandise it well.
So, as the owner, that's reallywhat you need to be focusing on
, not the day-to-day tasks.
Also, I'm a huge fan ofoutsourcing things that make you
angry.
So in Amazon.
Adam Shaffer (28:06):
I'll tell you.
Lesley Hensell (28:06):
What makes people angry is customer service
messages.
Answering people's messagesmakes people angry because a lot
of times they're lies.
They're people wantingsomething for nothing.
Now some of them are legit andthen you're mad because your
shipping guy didn't actuallyship out the package right.
So it's like a source of anger.
(28:27):
Anything that makes youemotional and angry.
You've got to outsource it oryou'll be a miserable person.
Adam Shaffer (28:35):
Yeah, I mean that's great advice.
I gotta think through that alittle bit more, because
everything gets me angry, Idon't know.
But what?
What's your thoughts onadvertising on Amazon?
Is it used to be that you know,back when you started it wasn't
, it wasn't the key to success,but now it seems like it's part
of the formula.
Lesley Hensell (28:56):
It really is, and it's very expensive.
So I understand why advertisinghas become a necessary evil,
but I don't think you shoulddrop one dime into advertising a
product that you haven'toptimized your listing detail
page.
Too many people do it backward.
They advertise a product thatif someone goes to the page,
they would not buy the productbecause the photos aren't good
(29:18):
or there's only two, there's nolifestyle image, there's no
video, there's no a plus content, it's badly written, there's no
benefits orientation, andthat's that's the number one
thing that I see.
Even with giant brands, theydon't invest in the listing
detail page being impressive andthen they drop a bunch of money
on ads.
So do you need to advertise?
Probably, but let's start withactually having a great product
(29:41):
and a great listing detail page.
Adam Shaffer (29:43):
No, I agree 100%.
That's good advice also.
And and what about?
So?
Say you now have your, yourcontent optimized and you feel
like, okay, this is telling areally good story about the
brand and the product.
You know, what do you see?
I mean, I see a lot of peoplespending a lot of money out
there and it's hard because it'snot like you have so much
(30:04):
margin, but once you startspending 10 plus percent, it
starts to get a little crazy,but that seems to be the norm.
What do you see?
Lesley Hensell (30:12):
so I'm gonna be really nerdy here and Say I love
when you are a newer seller orwhen you're trying to break into
a new category.
My favorite thing is long tailkeyword campaigns.
Long tail keywords are cheaperand Are they going to
immediately boost you to the topof your category?
(30:33):
No, but they will help you inchand edge your way up.
They are more work, but whenyou're in a bootstrap phase in
your business, you always haveto make a choice between
spending money and spending time, and this is one of those areas
where spending time makes moresense over money.
And I say spending time becauseyou've got to research what
those long tail keywords shouldbe and then set up all these
(30:54):
separate campaigns For your longtail keywords.
I think that's actually a greatinvestment of time.
It's also something you canoutsource to a younger person
who's inexpensive even.
I've known people who've donethis with family members.
They've had their kids do thesethings.
Research these long tailkeywords instead of campaigns.
I'm all about Cheap familylabor.
(31:15):
Yeah, because if I pay yourtuition and living expenses,
then you know you can work forme some.
It's also a tax deduction, butmy kids have worked in my Amazon
business since the younger onewas two and now he's 16, so this
is normal stuff around my house.
So I'm a big fan of the longtail keywords to try and get you
(31:38):
started and get some traction,to even figure out what the
right metrics are for yourbusiness, instead of diving in
head first on super expensivekeyword campaigns that make you
be unprofitable on the products.
Adam Shaffer (31:51):
I love that you can get your kids to work for
you.
I, they said they're gonna workfor me, and then I look and
they're playing roblox orsomething it's.
It's hard to keep them focusedbut maybe they're a little too
young.
But you know, but Riverbend, Ithink, was doing for a while
Maybe and maybe you're stilldoing it I haven't talked to you
about it was that you weregetting articles written about
products and placed out there.
Tell us about that, because Ithink that's pretty cool when
(32:14):
people read positive articles.
I mean, obviously it helps.
Lesley Hensell (32:19):
So for a while, amazon had what they called
editorial recommendations andthey were articles that then
would be Actually on the Amazonsite, so redirecting to men's
health magazine, for example,and the contents actually on
Amazon.
Amazon has discontinued that.
They are no longer doing it.
However, we do work with apartner who still has off-site
(32:41):
content, so they will placearticles and Major magazines
that are relevant to youraudience and then that off-site
content.
It Works with Google campaigns.
You can have it redirect yourAmazon listing and it's it's
very useful because you'reessentially boosting the power,
(33:03):
using the power of SEO To boostyour ranking on Amazon, on
Amazon through articlesredirecting to your product.
Adam Shaffer (33:12):
Okay, I mean that's cool.
We, we tried, we tried it andthen Amazon discontinued it.
So, like, as we were aboutgetting it up and going, it's
like what?
That's a bomber, because I usedto love Seeing other people
doing it.
Like I want to do that too.
And we finally got it going andboom, it's gone.
But I don't know why yeah, Iknow I mean on Amazon.
What could be better like thetop product of the year, the
(33:35):
best Christmas gift or whateverit was it was.
It was awesome.
So I Straight away from thebook.
I'm sorry, so you know to getto on on the book.
I don't want people to miss theimportance of this book because
it's not your typical, likeI've gotten so many the Amazon
jungle and every book.
James Thompson's books wereactually Pretty, pretty helpful
(33:57):
for me, and so that's why Ican't wait to get yours.
But what are the things arepeople gonna be able to get out
of?
This book Is there.
You know you talked about alittle bit, but is it like the
blueprint for people?
Is it like this is gonna reallyhelp me organize my life so I
can get my Amazon business going?
Lesley Hensell (34:13):
So each chapter is one topic for you to really
think about how you want thingsto go in your business, and at
the end Is a summary and thenquestions for you to answer and
when you've answered thosequestions, you are creating that
blueprint for how you're gonnasell.
Adam Shaffer (34:29):
Oh, so there's homework.
Lesley Hensell (34:32):
There is.
There's homework, but it'shomework that it's almost like
creating a mini business plan.
You know, traditional businessplans are only useful if you
intend to go get an SBA one.
But if you're an entrepreneur inan e-commerce business.
You just need a mini businessplan for some focus and to know
what your goals are and how toget going, and that's that's
(34:52):
really what this gives you ifyou complete through the whole
book and, like You've workedwith so many different people
and you've done it yourself,what do you think it takes to
succeed on Amazon?
Adam Shaffer (35:03):
like what?
What is it?
Is it just the passion?
It can't just be that.
I.
Lesley Hensell (35:09):
Really think it is all the boring things like
having a plan and focusing andnot being distracted, because
there are so many people whosell on Amazon who are so
successful and smart and theyall have some strategy to offer
and Many of those strategies areamazing, but you can't do all
of them.
You have to pick what you canactually implement yourself,
(35:32):
what you can afford to do andwhat will move the needle in
your business.
So it's really comes down tofocusing and, like an example in
the book is let's pick threethings you're gonna do in the
next month and implement them.
What can they be?
What will move the needle?
I know that's the simplestadvice ever, but sometimes you
need someone standing over yousaying pick three things to do
(35:52):
today, because it's it's likesquirrel.
There is a great PPC strategy,squirrel.
That's a great idea about howto import goods.
It's, there's always somethingright.
Adam Shaffer (36:02):
There's so much information being blasted at you
all over, that's like it's hardto focus there.
Lesley Hensell (36:08):
I love to read it all.
Yes, but then how much of it isuseful?
Because if you don't implementit?
I saw this great post on socialmedia where this guy had this
stack of books and it was like52 books and he said I read one
book every week for a year andyou should read them all.
They were all business booksand all I could think was what
(36:28):
did you implement out of 52books?
I mean, isn't it better to readthree books and implement one
thing from each book, Becauseyou have to actually do the
things?
It's it's almost like you'rejust sitting on the sidelines
watching the game instead of itbeing in.
They're playing, you know.
So pick the things you canimplement and and it's hard in
this industry there's so manyvideos and coaches and gurus
(36:49):
that you just want to do it alland you can't.
Adam Shaffer (36:52):
That is awesome advice.
I need to follow that, thankyou.
This is like talking to mytherapist.
This is awesome, and and sojust say you know getting down
to the end here.
You know what's the?
What are most people not knowabout selling on Amazon, like
what?
You know?
What's the thing that's gonnaget them caught?
(37:13):
What's the thing that's gonnaknock them down?
Lesley Hensell (37:16):
If you're new to Amazon, the thing you usually
don't know is that Amazon will,out of the blue, ask you for
invoices to prove that yourproducts were new or to prove
that they are authentic.
And a lot of folks do not keepgood records.
And even if they have theinvoices, they're not sure what
matches to what product.
They don't realize that theyneed to cover the sales from 180
(37:38):
days or longer and they end upin a panic because they can't
provide this.
Another thing folks don'trealize is they get told to go
do retail arbitrage, and I amnot against retail arbitrage, I
just understand the risksinvolved.
Certain brands will fileintellectual property claims
against you.
(37:58):
That makes it somewhat risky.
The more risky thing is whereyou're buying it.
If you buy from discount storesthat don't have a UPC, on the
receipt they use an internalstock number.
You can't prove what theproduct was that you purchased
with that receipt.
So it's the documentation ofwhere you bought the product,
how you got it and that thatsupplier is a legitimate
(38:21):
supplier is of paramountimportance.
10 years ago it really didn'tmatter.
Now it is everything, and itgives so many people in trouble
early in the business.
Adam Shaffer (38:31):
Oh man, we run into so many people that go to
Costco and buy stuff on sale andbulk and break it down and sell
it on Amazon.
It's unbelievable, so that'sreally good advice also, wow.
So, wrapping things up and kindof coming to the close of our
podcast, what are the finalthoughts that you want to maybe
(38:53):
leave everybody with?
And then let's make sureeverybody knows how to get your
book.
Lesley Hensell (38:58):
So Amazon is not get rich quick, it's just not.
But it can be a sustainable,long-term business that helps
you meet whatever goal you want.
There are people out there whowill tell you it's too late,
it's not a good time to sell onAmazon anymore.
Someone who works with Amazon'sproblems every day and problems
(39:18):
sellers have every day I couldtell you thousands of things
wrong with Amazon.
I will still tell you it is thebest small business incubator
in the history of the world.
So I encourage people who arelooking for that freedom, that
flexibility or a way to fundsome specific goals to really
consider whether this is a wayyou can do it.
(39:40):
So if you want to learn moreabout the book, you can go to
wwwtheamazonincubatorcom andthere it has links to every
place that you could want to buythe book.
It is on pre-order up untilJanuary 23rd and we're going to
have some nice bonus items tooat the Amazon Incubator as well.
(40:00):
So please go check it out.
And also, if you go on over toLinkedIn or any other social
media where you find me, pleasefeel free to connect and to send
me any questions that you have.
I really love talking to Amazonsellers.
It's the best part of my day.
Adam Shaffer (40:14):
Well, we love talking to you, Lesley, and
thank you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a thrill to have youhere and we learned a lot.
Thank you.
Lesley Hensell (40:21):
Thank you.
Adam.
Welcome to the Planet Amazon podcast with Adam
Shaffer, where we explore theworld of Amazon and other
e-commerce marketplaces.
Join us as we delve into thelatest strategies and tactics
for successful selling on theworld's largest online
marketplace.
Adam Shaffer (00:17):
Hello, I'm Adam Shaffer and welcome to Planet
Amazon, where we talk about allthings about Amazon.
Today we have a great guest.
I'm going to talk about somegreat Amazon topics and an
awesome new book that's comingout that you guys are going to
need to get because it's a musthave, for sure.
So I want you to introduce andget things going and introduce
(00:38):
you to Lesley Hensell.
Lesley is co-founder ofRiverbend Consulting, who we've
met because we've actually metwith them to try and help us
with some stuff in the past.
They have 85 employees and theysolve problems for e-commerce
sellers.
In my case, it was Amazon.
Lesley oversees RiverbendServices team and she has
(01:00):
personally helped hundreds ofsellers get suspended accounts
and agents up and running onAmazon, which is a very hard
thing to do and is verycomplicated, and you need to
know how to do it, and Lesleyand her team know this.
She's been an Amazon seller formore than a decade and what I
(01:21):
learned about Lesley is she's alifelong Longhorn fan and she
earned a bachelor's degree injournalism and an MBA from the
University of Texas at Austin.
She volunteers for a Wish withWings, a Wish granting
organization for little Texanswith a life-threatening
conditions, and she serves onthe board of directors for
(01:43):
Halley's Heroes, which fundsbone marrow matches and medical
research for kids with cancerand critical illnesses, and with
all that, she just wrote a bookwhich is amazing.
Well, welcome to the show,Lesley.
Lesley Hensell (01:58):
Thanks so much, Adam.
I'm thrilled to be here.
Adam Shaffer (02:00):
Wow, wow.
You've done a lot and you do alot.
But again, where I met youoriginally from James Thompson,
who introduced us together, andwe talked to you about some
things that we might need helpwith.
But I know from the circuitthat you've been helping tons
and tons of sellers on Amazonfix some of the problems, and so
I definitely want to talk aboutyour book, but let's first talk
(02:23):
about you and the biz.
So tell us I mean, I did thatintroduction, but give us the
real story, give us the LesleyLesley
Lesley Hensell (02:31):
So I really care about one thing.
I'm very boring and very simple.
I care about kids, andespecially my own kids.
I actually started as a selleron Amazon in 2010 because my
older kid is on the autismspectrum.
I was a full-time businessconsultant at the time and my
kiddo was failing at school andwe decided to homeschool him.
(02:54):
But when you do a whole lot ofhomeschooling at therapy a kid
who needs therapy every singleday it's very expensive, and so
I couldn't just quit my job inhomeschool.
Even with my husband working,we had to pay for all this
therapy Amazon, and so one ofthose original Amazon mommies
that the reason I started doingit was for my kids, and so my
(03:14):
husband would work during theday.
He'd come home, I would gosource inventory and then on the
weekends we would ship it allto Amazon.
Adam Shaffer (03:22):
What were you selling?
What were you selling?
Lesley Hensell (03:25):
So that was back in the Wild West days.
Right when you could do, youcould sell anything.
So I would source all kinds ofgarbage that now you can't get
away with selling, likeliquidation inventory from the
banana box grocery stores, and Iwent to old school book sales
like library book sales, andwould buy thousands of books
(03:46):
that we would flip.
So hard work, backbreaking work, but a great way for us to pay
the bills and me be able to stayhome and be focused on my kiddo
.
It was fantastic and duringthat I met a lot of other
settlers and some of them werepeople who got in trouble with
Amazon, had problems with Amazonand because of my old school
(04:09):
business consulting background,that was a niche that I could
move into and start helpingsellers instead of other kinds
of businesses.
Adam Shaffer (04:16):
So that's great.
So you kind of shifted fromselling to now consulting and
helping.
And I know you guys do a lot ofstuff at River Bend and I don't
mind.
You know you could plug the biz.
I don't mind that at all.
I think it's great because yourservice is great.
But the biggest thing that whenI think of you guys, I think of
oh man, I got an ASIN suspended, I got millions of dollars of
(04:40):
inventory sitting up at Amazon.
I can't actually just pull itout of there and how do I get
this thing going again?
I mean, and that's kind of yoursweet spot.
So tell us about the sweet spotof your business and then you
can talk about the otherservices.
Lesley Hensell (04:56):
So suspended ASINs and suspended accounts is
where we meet most of ourclients and a lot of folks.
When their account goes down ortheir ASIN is suspended, they
try and appeal it firstthemselves, and they may or may
not be successful.
When they aren't, they'rereally not sure what to do,
because Amazon holds all of itsinvestigative methods as
(05:16):
proprietary data.
They don't tell you, they don'tgive you a lot of hints,
they're not super helpful andsometimes you're breaking rules
that you don't even know you'rebreaking, or it's a false
positive, and with falsepositives, sometimes you really
need someone outside of yourbusiness to help you walk
through how to solve that.
(05:36):
Amazon is not seller friendly.
They talk about being the mostcustomer-centric business on
earth, but they are notseller-centric.
And because, when you thinkabout it, my business should not
even really exist.
We should not be here.
We're only here because it isso difficult to deal with Amazon
.
So that's what we do.
(05:56):
We are in the trenches withclients.
We analyze their business fromthe outside, help them figure
out what the problems are andwhen those appeals don't work,
we help them escalate inside ofAmazon to get the issue fixed.
Adam Shaffer (06:08):
So there's got to be a common story that you see.
I'm sure there's the odd stuff,but what's the main reason?
You think that, or you'reseeing that Amazon sellers are
getting suspended or havinglistings knocked down.
Lesley Hensell (06:19):
The top ones right now for accounts.
It's linked to accounts and alot of those are false positives
.
So that's where Amazon believesthat your account is somehow
related to an account that isnot allowed to sell on Amazon
anymore.
That might be an account youhad 20 years ago when you were
in a completely different placein your life.
It might be some old roommatesaccount, or it could be someone
(06:41):
you don't even know and it's afalse positive.
It is a bad investigation andyou have to prove the negative
and newbie, something.
That is you know how everythingold is new again, inauthentic
is new again.
So back when I first startedworking on appeals eight, nine
years ago, inauthentic was thenumber one reason you got
suspended and then that kind ofwent away and Amazon would just
(07:04):
suspend your ASIN forinauthentic.
That's gone on for years.
Well, now inauthentic is backfor account level and in some
cases they are accusing peopleof counterfeit and stolen goods.
That's really tough.
Adam Shaffer (07:16):
Yeah, I mean, when they get it right, it's awesome
.
But we've had it where it wascompletely legitimate.
We're authorized by the, we'reselling it for a brand, the
inventory is fine and they'resaying, no, it's counterfeit and
we're not Like, here's all theinformation and it still took us
a month to get the productfixed.
So are you seeing more falsepositives or more legitimate
(07:43):
stuff?
Lesley Hensell (07:45):
So there's plenty of both to go around.
In general, what I've seen overtime remains true and about a
third of the cases that come tous, our clients did the bad
thing.
And about a third of them theymade a mistake or they operated
their business poorly in a waythat had a bad result.
They didn't really do somethingbad and evil, they just there
(08:09):
were mistakes made and itresulted in a suspension.
And about a third of the timethey really didn't do anything
wrong and we have to convinceAmazon of that.
Adam Shaffer (08:18):
So you don't have to tell us the secret sauce.
But how the heck do you do itLike?
What do you?
What's some of the basic thingsyou do to help them get
unsuspected?
Lesley Hensell (08:27):
So a really important thing to know when
you're communicating with Amazonis to remove 90% of the emotion
.
People get very upset and angryor sad, and that is a
reasonable response.
But when you correspond withAmazon, you have to remember
this is just someone's jobreading these letters and trying
(08:49):
to follow their SOPs.
So emotion has to be removed.
Except for Gali.
I'm really upset.
I'm afraid I'm gonna lose mybusiness.
Those kinds of statements Alsothey don't care how long you've
been in business, they don'tcare how much you sell on Amazon
.
They don't care about any ofthat.
I'll leave all that out.
A lot of how we solve theproblem is we tell Amazon how to
(09:11):
solve the problem.
So we say, hey, this is whatyou said we did, here are the
things we've done to fix it andhere's what we need from you.
That's essentially the formula.
So, like when we haveescalations, that we go to
different teams, or even incases in everyday business with
Amazon where you can't get themto do what you need them to do,
(09:32):
in a case, you need to explainhere's my problem.
Here are the steps I took tofix it and they didn't work.
So I need your help.
Please do this thing.
It also helps we have a lot ofex-Amazonian employees, so they
know a lot of times the magicwords of the internal process,
or what they refer to it, insideAmazon that mere mortals
(09:54):
outside of Amazon like me don'tknow.
Adam Shaffer (09:56):
I was gonna ask if you have like a go-to at Amazon
that you go to, but they turnthe people over so often.
But I don't know, is thatsomething you guys have?
Lesley Hensell (10:03):
So it's really not kosher to go to sources
inside of Amazon.
They're especially now becausethere have been several
consultants in the business whohave paid bribes to people
inside of Amazon and now haveconvictions for doing so.
So we have to really never gothat route, because we never
(10:25):
wanna have that appearance ofimpropriety, even if we're just
asking questions.
So what we do is we just helpour clients.
Amazon also won't speak tothird parties about an account.
They only wanna hear from theaccount owner.
So we help our clients with theright language, the right email
addresses, the right requestsfrom Amazon.
(10:46):
They do the back and forthcommunicating, but we fed them
all the information they need.
Adam Shaffer (10:51):
We've had some friends in the industry that
actually had to go to legal.
Do you guys ever get involvedwith that at all?
Is that not part of it?
Lesley Hensell (10:59):
So we have certain cases that we do
escalate to the Amazon legalteam.
We have times when we work witha client's attorney and we'll
actually go both routes at thesame time.
So we will take their legaldocuments, help them, Amazonify
them in some ways and they willsend to legal, and then we go to
(11:20):
the non-legal departments atAmazon.
Those are few and far betweenand usually specifically around
legal issues.
Generally speaking, once you'vebrought an attorney in,
Amazon's like whoa not talkingto you anymore.
So unless it's something thatbelongs in the illegal arena,
like you've been accused of acrime at Amazon with your Amazon
(11:42):
account, or like moneylaundering or, if you like,
intellectual property issuesthose are appropriate to bring
in legal.
A lot of times for intellectualproperty we'll have an opinion
letter written by an attorneyand then present that along with
the appeal.
So, but for the most part,using a lawyer just makes the
Amazon back off and say nottalking to you anymore, bye.
Adam Shaffer (12:04):
So two no-nos don't go directly to talk to
your friends at Amazon and onceyou get legal, it changes the
game a little bit, it changesthe relationship.
So I get it for sure.
So let's note that the otherquestion I had is you know, I
just wanna live a clean, happylife and not have problems.
What should we do to make surewe stay out of trouble?
(12:27):
Like, how do you avoid this?
Lesley Hensell (12:29):
So one interesting thing Amazon has put
in place in the last couple ofyears is they have this new
account health rating and if yougo into your Amazon account and
you look under performance, ithas the scorecard.
And that scorecard listseverything that they consider
bad that you did in your account, and so those might be
(12:49):
intellectual property violationsor accusations have been
authentic, whatever those mightbe.
It's really important.
So used to, before they hadthis scheme, I didn't tell
people to appeal every ASIN.
Now, unfortunately, I do.
It is really important thatevery ASIN that pops up in there
you appeal.
It doesn't always take a ton ofwork.
(13:11):
A lot of times all they want isyour invoices.
Submit the invoices because ifyou are responsive to them, you
are showing that you care andthat you want to solve the
problem.
And the other important thing Irecommend is that you look at
voice of the customer all thetime.
I know there's lots of falsepositives in there, so, believe
(13:33):
me, I get that there's so muchgarbage in voice of the customer
, but there's also a lot of gooddata and sometimes you can
solve serious problems with yourASINs before they come to the
point of enforcement and alsoimprove your profitability
because you solve those problems.
Adam Shaffer (13:49):
You know, I mean, maybe it's just me, but I used
to worry and I stopped worryingabout it because there's no way
to deal with it, but sending aninvoice, we always used to think
, oh, so Amazon's now going toknow our source, they're going
to have all the information,they're going to know what we
pay for.
It Is that?
Is it just like me and myparanoia, or do you think that's
any of that's real?
Lesley Hensell (14:08):
So my rule with Amazon is it's not paranoia if
they're really out to get you.
So there's only one situationwhere that is something to worry
about, and that is with privatelabel products.
The good news is Amazon has nowbeen caught and everyone knows
(14:29):
it, and it's part of the FTClitigation against them that
they have in the past takensupplier invoices for private
label products, gone to thosesuppliers, knocked off the
products, created an AmazonBasics version and now they've
gotten in trouble for it.
So at this point in time Idon't think that's a worry,
(14:50):
because the daylight has beenshined onto that issue and two
years ago I wouldn't say that.
Adam Shaffer (14:57):
Yeah, okay, I feel better now.
Thank you, Lesley.
And then you know I see so muchweird stuff out there.
If you want to call them blackhats, like, what should the
sellers know about black hatsthat are out there?
You live this.
Lesley Hensell (15:12):
If you're new to Amazon, there are certain
categories that you can stayaway from that tend to have many
more black hats and competitiveproblems.
The number one most dangerouscategory is supplements.
I know supplements areextremely attractive because the
margins are amazing, which isalso why they have all the black
hats.
So supplements are reallydifficult.
(15:33):
A lot of electronics also has alot of black hat activity from
overseas and electronics.
That's the first thing to know.
Secondly, is you've got to dobrand registry.
If you have your own privatelabel products, your own branded
products, if you don't gothrough the brand registry
process, you're just asking forit because people will knock off
(15:55):
your products and there'snothing you can do.
If you go through brandregistry, at least you have your
trademark.
That you've done.
Amazon has a record of yourbrand and you can do something
to try and protect yourselves.
There's not really a defenseagainst black hat, except you
have to have someone monitoringyour account all the time.
So if you don't want to be aslave to your account, which you
(16:19):
don't want to be, you need a VA.
You need some other team memberwho is in your account every
day looking for any kind ofactivity that speaks to a black
hat.
Adam Shaffer (16:30):
Wow, good info.
To wrap up on the suspensionstuff, just for fun, what's been
the most difficult or weirdestsuspension you've been able to
solve and win?
Lesley Hensell (16:48):
The most ridiculous suspension yeah the
most ridiculous one.
Because they never should havebeen reinstated, and I got them
back in one appeal.
It was a seller who listedgrenades hand grenades on Amazon
.
Come on yes.
So what they did was they werea Sports and Outdoors seller and
(17:09):
they were doing blind dropshipping.
That's the approved kind ofdrop shipping, where you have a
supplier that they are shippingall the orders for you under
your storefront name.
And they uploaded an entireSports and Outdoors catalog from
a supplier who sold weapons,and so he had gun parts, he had
(17:29):
all the illegal knives and hehad items that are only sold to
the federal government lawenforcement agencies, including
grenades of various kinds.
The whole freaking catalog like15,000 listings.
He just uploaded it, and so Igot him to take down all the
listings.
We appealed and we got him back.
Adam Shaffer (17:48):
So Amazon suspended this seller because
they uploaded grenades.
He could never Could he havesupplied the grenades.
Lesley Hensell (17:58):
So he could have sold one on Amazon, but his
supplier would not have shippedit Because that would mean that
they're a federal firearmsdealer, and a federal firearms
dealer isn't going to drop agrenade in the mail to Adam
Schaefer.
They know that they're onlygoing to ship those to
(18:18):
governmental agencies, but hestill uploaded and created the
listings.
It's just like if you uploadeda listing for cocaine.
It's really the same kind ofthing, right.
Adam Shaffer (18:26):
Well, you probably get a lot of demand, but
anyways, tough to shift and I'mnot looking forward to the
grenades showing up, but itwould be pretty cool to get.
Wow, that's wild.
So let's change the topic,because you're so busy with your
family and your business, butsomehow you wrote a book.
(18:47):
But then I found out thatyou've been writing books,
you've been a writer for quitesome time.
So give us a little story onyour writing background and then
tell us about the book.
The Amazon Incubator.
Lesley Hensell (18:58):
So my background .
My first jobs out of collegewere as a reporter, and I worked
as a business reporter.
I was a sports reporter, I wasa general like murders and fires
reporter on the city desk, didall the things and then
gradually moved over intobusiness pursuits.
(19:19):
Well then, when I had littlekids, I wanted to be home with
them and so I started doing aton of freelance writing because
that is a great way to make aliving and not have to be on
someone else to schedule whenyou've got toddlers hanging on
your legs.
So I would go straight magazinearticles and news pieces and
advertorial.
(19:39):
And then I started ghostwritingbooks and I go through several
books for business owners,lawyers, advocates out there,
various subjects and had a greattime doing it.
But it's it's really fun nowbecause all those books that I
wrote, none of them ever had myname on them.
So gotta admit it's exciting,after you've written hundreds of
(20:02):
thousands of words, for otherpeople, to write a book of your
own and actually have yourbyline.
I was very fortunate that I hada publisher contact me out of
the blue and that my editor hadbeen at an Amazon conference
where I was a speaker at theAccelerate Conference in Salt
(20:22):
Lake City and he had seen mespeak there and said I am
looking for someone to write abook about how to sell on Amazon
.
I think it's an underservedcategory in business books.
Most of the stuff isself-published not that there's
anything wrong with that but itdoesn't have any support of a
real publisher.
And so are you interested andhe'd also seen that I've been a
(20:44):
writer in the past I was likeheck, yeah.
So we wrote this book.
It's with Skyhorse Publishingand it's distributed by Simon
and Schuster and it comes outJanuary 23rd and it is called
the Amazon Incubator Grow yourBusiness or Hatch a New One.
Adam Shaffer (21:01):
I already pre-ordered it already this
morning.
So I'm very excited and so Imean how long did it take you to
write this?
Because I mean, I think aboutit like what do you write?
A page a day?
Lesley Hensell (21:13):
So it took me about five months to create the
first draft and what?
I'm a big believer in timeblocking, so that's the only way
that I manage all of mydifferent obligations.
I have so many different hatsthat I wear inside of Riverbend,
that I've got my Amazon sellerbusiness, then I've got the kids
, then I've got my nonprofitobligations, so the only way I
(21:35):
make it through the day is tohave these blocks of time.
So I would block off two hoursa day, monday, wednesday, friday
, and then four hours on theweekend, and that's how I got it
knocked out.
Adam Shaffer (21:48):
So you did four hours on the weekend.
I mean I can't get a minute onthe weekend without somebody on
top of me making me take themsomewhere or go to gymnastics or
tennis or whatever.
That's amazing.
But I mean I do a time blockand then I wind up doing
something else.
So you're very disciplined,very impressed Cool.
Lesley Hensell (22:07):
It's taken me several years of using time
blocking to get where I actuallydo the thing Seriously.
And you know what I've done,also on Slack.
I know we are all slaves toSlack, those of us who work in
large organizations.
I've muted all these channelsand said if you at me I'll
answer, but otherwise I'mignoring you.
So I've had to do a lot ofadjustment to my other work
(22:29):
mechanisms so I can focus.
Adam Shaffer (22:31):
I got to copy that , so tell us about the book.
I mean it's cool, it's aboutAmazon, but it's not like your
typical get rich quick on Amazonbook right?
Lesley Hensell (22:43):
And that's really what I'm most excited
about, because there are so manycourses out there and methods
and you know you can make tonsof money in four hours a week
and a lot of these guys who wantyou to get a Lamborghini like
the goal is to get a Lamborghiniand a great watch.
My book is really more aboutmaking Amazon serve you and your
(23:06):
goals.
What do you want out of Amazon?
How do you choose your methodof selling?
So, are you a hustler who wantsa side hustle and this is never
going to be your main business?
Are you a brand builder?
Are you someone who wants to bethat remote worker?
Any of those will work onAmazon.
(23:26):
So I kind of walk you throughhow to choose what works for you
and your personal goals not mygoals, not some course creators
goals your goals and then buildthat Amazon business that can
support those goals over timesustainably.
Adam Shaffer (23:41):
So you got to figure out where you want to get
to, what's your goal?
Because if you're not willingto commit you know 40 hours a
day to this thing, you knowwhat's it going to be.
And is it a hobby, is it a getrich quick scheme?
What are you trying to do?
And then what are you trying tosell?
I imagine do you try to giveadvice on what to sell and what
not to sell?
Lesley Hensell (24:03):
Yes, absolutely.
And I also talk about timecommitments, like you're saying,
and what it takes to get todifferent goals on Amazon.
Like, if you want to be someonewho's opening a new brand every
six months and adding newproducts every few weeks, that
is a full time job.
But if no one sits down andexplains it to you, you're not
(24:24):
going to really get it.
And Amazon I think part of whatis so challenging is this whole
build.
An e-commerce business model hasonly been around for a blip in
time.
There have been accountingfirms for hundreds of years in
Europe.
Right, these things haveexisted.
We all know how lawyering works, but the idea of how to run an
(24:46):
e-commerce business as a real,viable business is relatively
new.
I've met way too many sellers,and this is part of my
motivation.
I've met so many sellers who'vereally hurt themselves because
they didn't set up theirbusiness with forethought and
they didn't set it up as a realbusiness, like, let's set up
your books, let's account foryour time, so at the end of the
(25:08):
year you actually know if youmade a profit, or how about this
?
How about you know every monthif you made a profit?
The number one mistake forAmazon sellers is they don't
actually do their books.
So this book walks you throughsome of those basics at the
beginning, but then also somemore advanced strategies too, so
you can have a life.
A lot about building SOPs andthen how to outsource and who to
(25:33):
outsource to, how to make thosechoices so that you're not just
a slave to this business 24-7.
Adam Shaffer (25:39):
I was just about to ask you know, what's your
thoughts on outsourcing?
Obviously, your firm and ourcompany is around to help brands
and people grow on Amazon, butwhat I see is like you've got to
be so good at so many differentdisciplines.
You need some help.
I think you need help anyway.
So what's your thoughts on that?
(26:01):
Because you've got to be goodat merchandising, on copywriting
, on creative, on advertising,on logistics, on all of that.
So what do you say on that?
Lesley Hensell (26:14):
So there's a service offering out there
called reimbursements and it'swhere a company and our company
does this, where Amazon losesyour inventory or they don't
receive it, and then thesecompanies file cases and they
get your money back.
I have never filed areimbursement case in my
business because I have someonewho does it for me, because it
involves a whole bunch ofreports and spreadsheets that I
(26:37):
have no interest in learning howto do.
And that's because I'm good atthe copywriting.
So why would I spend my time onthe thing that I am not good at
spreadsheets when I can focuson the things I am good at, even
in Riverbend?
I'll tell you a couple ofmonths ago I hired a personal
assistant, which I've never hadone before, because I couldn't
(27:00):
figure out how to delegateappropriately to someone.
Now I delegate everything elsein my business but, like the
personal stuff, I couldn'tfigure it out.
So I said I'm going to solvethis.
We're going to hire someone.
Great.
It has changed my life for thebetter, finding the right person
in that position.
Running an Amazon business isjust like that.
You need to understand eachprocess and understand the
(27:23):
fundamentals of it and, in a lotof cases, build the SOP for it,
or you can follow SOPs that arein the book for it.
But then you've got to find atrusted resource you can hand
that off to, because otherwiseyou're not focusing on what
makes you money.
You make money when you developnew products.
You make money at the buy.
You don't make money when yousell things.
(27:45):
You make money at the buy ifyou don't overpay, so making
great deals.
You make money when you developa brand that people are excited
about.
You promote it well.
You merchandise it well.
So, as the owner, that's reallywhat you need to be focusing on
, not the day-to-day tasks.
Also, I'm a huge fan ofoutsourcing things that make you
angry.
So in Amazon.
Adam Shaffer (28:06):
I'll tell you.
Lesley Hensell (28:06):
What makes people angry is customer service
messages.
Answering people's messagesmakes people angry because a lot
of times they're lies.
They're people wantingsomething for nothing.
Now some of them are legit andthen you're mad because your
shipping guy didn't actuallyship out the package right.
So it's like a source of anger.
(28:27):
Anything that makes youemotional and angry.
You've got to outsource it oryou'll be a miserable person.
Adam Shaffer (28:35):
Yeah, I mean that's great advice.
I gotta think through that alittle bit more, because
everything gets me angry, Idon't know.
But what?
What's your thoughts onadvertising on Amazon?
Is it used to be that you know,back when you started it wasn't
, it wasn't the key to success,but now it seems like it's part
of the formula.
Lesley Hensell (28:56):
It really is, and it's very expensive.
So I understand why advertisinghas become a necessary evil,
but I don't think you shoulddrop one dime into advertising a
product that you haven'toptimized your listing detail
page.
Too many people do it backward.
They advertise a product thatif someone goes to the page,
they would not buy the productbecause the photos aren't good
(29:18):
or there's only two, there's nolifestyle image, there's no
video, there's no a plus content, it's badly written, there's no
benefits orientation, andthat's that's the number one
thing that I see.
Even with giant brands, theydon't invest in the listing
detail page being impressive andthen they drop a bunch of money
on ads.
So do you need to advertise?
Probably, but let's start withactually having a great product
(29:41):
and a great listing detail page.
Adam Shaffer (29:43):
No, I agree 100%.
That's good advice also.
And and what about?
So?
Say you now have your, yourcontent optimized and you feel
like, okay, this is telling areally good story about the
brand and the product.
You know, what do you see?
I mean, I see a lot of peoplespending a lot of money out
there and it's hard because it'snot like you have so much
(30:04):
margin, but once you startspending 10 plus percent, it
starts to get a little crazy,but that seems to be the norm.
What do you see?
Lesley Hensell (30:12):
so I'm gonna be really nerdy here and Say I love
when you are a newer seller orwhen you're trying to break into
a new category.
My favorite thing is long tailkeyword campaigns.
Long tail keywords are cheaperand Are they going to
immediately boost you to the topof your category?
(30:33):
No, but they will help you inchand edge your way up.
They are more work, but whenyou're in a bootstrap phase in
your business, you always haveto make a choice between
spending money and spending time, and this is one of those areas
where spending time makes moresense over money.
And I say spending time becauseyou've got to research what
those long tail keywords shouldbe and then set up all these
(30:54):
separate campaigns For your longtail keywords.
I think that's actually a greatinvestment of time.
It's also something you canoutsource to a younger person
who's inexpensive even.
I've known people who've donethis with family members.
They've had their kids do thesethings.
Research these long tailkeywords instead of campaigns.
I'm all about Cheap familylabor.
(31:15):
Yeah, because if I pay yourtuition and living expenses,
then you know you can work forme some.
It's also a tax deduction, butmy kids have worked in my Amazon
business since the younger onewas two and now he's 16, so this
is normal stuff around my house.
So I'm a big fan of the longtail keywords to try and get you
(31:38):
started and get some traction,to even figure out what the
right metrics are for yourbusiness, instead of diving in
head first on super expensivekeyword campaigns that make you
be unprofitable on the products.
Adam Shaffer (31:51):
I love that you can get your kids to work for
you.
I, they said they're gonna workfor me, and then I look and
they're playing roblox orsomething it's.
It's hard to keep them focusedbut maybe they're a little too
young.
But you know, but Riverbend, Ithink, was doing for a while
Maybe and maybe you're stilldoing it I haven't talked to you
about it was that you weregetting articles written about
products and placed out there.
Tell us about that, because Ithink that's pretty cool when
(32:14):
people read positive articles.
I mean, obviously it helps.
Lesley Hensell (32:19):
So for a while, amazon had what they called
editorial recommendations andthey were articles that then
would be Actually on the Amazonsite, so redirecting to men's
health magazine, for example,and the contents actually on
Amazon.
Amazon has discontinued that.
They are no longer doing it.
However, we do work with apartner who still has off-site
(32:41):
content, so they will placearticles and Major magazines
that are relevant to youraudience and then that off-site
content.
It Works with Google campaigns.
You can have it redirect yourAmazon listing and it's it's
very useful because you'reessentially boosting the power,
(33:03):
using the power of SEO To boostyour ranking on Amazon, on
Amazon through articlesredirecting to your product.
Adam Shaffer (33:12):
Okay, I mean that's cool.
We, we tried, we tried it andthen Amazon discontinued it.
So, like, as we were aboutgetting it up and going, it's
like what?
That's a bomber, because I usedto love Seeing other people
doing it.
Like I want to do that too.
And we finally got it going andboom, it's gone.
But I don't know why yeah, Iknow I mean on Amazon.
What could be better like thetop product of the year, the
(33:35):
best Christmas gift or whateverit was it was.
It was awesome.
So I Straight away from thebook.
I'm sorry, so you know to getto on on the book.
I don't want people to miss theimportance of this book because
it's not your typical, likeI've gotten so many the Amazon
jungle and every book.
James Thompson's books wereactually Pretty, pretty helpful
(33:57):
for me, and so that's why Ican't wait to get yours.
But what are the things arepeople gonna be able to get out
of?
This book Is there.
You know you talked about alittle bit, but is it like the
blueprint for people?
Is it like this is gonna reallyhelp me organize my life so I
can get my Amazon business going?
Lesley Hensell (34:13):
So each chapter is one topic for you to really
think about how you want thingsto go in your business, and at
the end Is a summary and thenquestions for you to answer and
when you've answered thosequestions, you are creating that
blueprint for how you're gonnasell.
Adam Shaffer (34:29):
Oh, so there's homework.
Lesley Hensell (34:32):
There is.
There's homework, but it'shomework that it's almost like
creating a mini business plan.
You know, traditional businessplans are only useful if you
intend to go get an SBA one.
But if you're an entrepreneur inan e-commerce business.
You just need a mini businessplan for some focus and to know
what your goals are and how toget going, and that's that's
(34:52):
really what this gives you ifyou complete through the whole
book and, like You've workedwith so many different people
and you've done it yourself,what do you think it takes to
succeed on Amazon?
Adam Shaffer (35:03):
like what?
What is it?
Is it just the passion?
It can't just be that.
I.
Lesley Hensell (35:09):
Really think it is all the boring things like
having a plan and focusing andnot being distracted, because
there are so many people whosell on Amazon who are so
successful and smart and theyall have some strategy to offer
and Many of those strategies areamazing, but you can't do all
of them.
You have to pick what you canactually implement yourself,
(35:32):
what you can afford to do andwhat will move the needle in
your business.
So it's really comes down tofocusing and, like an example in
the book is let's pick threethings you're gonna do in the
next month and implement them.
What can they be?
What will move the needle?
I know that's the simplestadvice ever, but sometimes you
need someone standing over yousaying pick three things to do
(35:52):
today, because it's it's likesquirrel.
There is a great PPC strategy,squirrel.
That's a great idea about howto import goods.
It's, there's always somethingright.
Adam Shaffer (36:02):
There's so much information being blasted at you
all over, that's like it's hardto focus there.
Lesley Hensell (36:08):
I love to read it all.
Yes, but then how much of it isuseful?
Because if you don't implementit?
I saw this great post on socialmedia where this guy had this
stack of books and it was like52 books and he said I read one
book every week for a year andyou should read them all.
They were all business booksand all I could think was what
(36:28):
did you implement out of 52books?
I mean, isn't it better to readthree books and implement one
thing from each book, Becauseyou have to actually do the
things?
It's it's almost like you'rejust sitting on the sidelines
watching the game instead of itbeing in.
They're playing, you know.
So pick the things you canimplement and and it's hard in
this industry there's so manyvideos and coaches and gurus
(36:49):
that you just want to do it alland you can't.
Adam Shaffer (36:52):
That is awesome advice.
I need to follow that, thankyou.
This is like talking to mytherapist.
This is awesome, and and sojust say you know getting down
to the end here.
You know what's the?
What are most people not knowabout selling on Amazon, like
what?
You know?
What's the thing that's gonnaget them caught?
(37:13):
What's the thing that's gonnaknock them down?
Lesley Hensell (37:16):
If you're new to Amazon, the thing you usually
don't know is that Amazon will,out of the blue, ask you for
invoices to prove that yourproducts were new or to prove
that they are authentic.
And a lot of folks do not keepgood records.
And even if they have theinvoices, they're not sure what
matches to what product.
They don't realize that theyneed to cover the sales from 180
(37:38):
days or longer and they end upin a panic because they can't
provide this.
Another thing folks don'trealize is they get told to go
do retail arbitrage, and I amnot against retail arbitrage, I
just understand the risksinvolved.
Certain brands will fileintellectual property claims
against you.
(37:58):
That makes it somewhat risky.
The more risky thing is whereyou're buying it.
If you buy from discount storesthat don't have a UPC, on the
receipt they use an internalstock number.
You can't prove what theproduct was that you purchased
with that receipt.
So it's the documentation ofwhere you bought the product,
how you got it and that thatsupplier is a legitimate
(38:21):
supplier is of paramountimportance.
10 years ago it really didn'tmatter.
Now it is everything, and itgives so many people in trouble
early in the business.
Adam Shaffer (38:31):
Oh man, we run into so many people that go to
Costco and buy stuff on sale andbulk and break it down and sell
it on Amazon.
It's unbelievable, so that'sreally good advice also, wow.
So, wrapping things up and kindof coming to the close of our
podcast, what are the finalthoughts that you want to maybe
(38:53):
leave everybody with?
And then let's make sureeverybody knows how to get your
book.
Lesley Hensell (38:58):
So Amazon is not get rich quick, it's just not.
But it can be a sustainable,long-term business that helps
you meet whatever goal you want.
There are people out there whowill tell you it's too late,
it's not a good time to sell onAmazon anymore.
Someone who works with Amazon'sproblems every day and problems
(39:18):
sellers have every day I couldtell you thousands of things
wrong with Amazon.
I will still tell you it is thebest small business incubator
in the history of the world.
So I encourage people who arelooking for that freedom, that
flexibility or a way to fundsome specific goals to really
consider whether this is a wayyou can do it.
(39:40):
So if you want to learn moreabout the book, you can go to
wwwtheamazonincubatorcom andthere it has links to every
place that you could want to buythe book.
It is on pre-order up untilJanuary 23rd and we're going to
have some nice bonus items tooat the Amazon Incubator as well.
(40:00):
So please go check it out.
And also, if you go on over toLinkedIn or any other social
media where you find me, pleasefeel free to connect and to send
me any questions that you have.
I really love talking to Amazonsellers.
It's the best part of my day.
Adam Shaffer (40:14):
Well, we love talking to you, Lesley, and
thank you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a thrill to have youhere and we learned a lot.
Thank you.
Lesley Hensell (40:21):
Thank you.
Adam.
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