November 21, 2024 • 50 mins
Plant-based foods are more than just a trend—they’re reshaping the way we think about health, sustainability, and taste.
From groundbreaking innovations in cheese and protein substitutes to the incredible stories of athletes thriving on plant-based diets, this episode uncovers the transformative power of clean, allergen-friendly ingredients.
You’ll gain valuable insights into how food impacts energy, recovery, and overall wellness, and why the future of nutrition is leaning green.
Plant-based innovations
Athlete-approved nutrition
Making healthy taste amazing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. I'm Joe Gagnon, co-host of the podcast.
(00:05):
Today I have a really great guest with us, a guy who's sort of been very much committed on a
journey for many years, a career that's one where he has leaned into the food industry,
has moved into the plant-based food part. He's a supplier, he's a creator,
he focuses on health and wellness. I have Doug Cantner with me. I think we're going to have a
(00:27):
fun conversation. As you know, everyone, we always start off in the pre-podcast with some of the most
fun, but we'll get to that in a second. Hey, Doug, thanks for being with us on the podcast today.
Thank you, Joe. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm sure that we can all
hit LinkedIn or read articles about what you've been up to, but I always find it sort of interesting
(00:48):
because, you know, all of us have had a journey of sort of discovery around health and wellness,
generally speaking. This is about the food we eat, the exercise, the community, even our value system
and the choices we've made and how that ends up affecting our lives, right? I mean, I'm sure that
when you were a kid, you weren't thinking you're going to be a CEO and founder of all these companies.
(01:09):
So tell us a little bit about where you grew up, you know, what your journey through food and
exercise and health and wellness was and how we got to today. Yeah, so I grew up in a little town,
Wapakoneta, Ohio. It's a little farm town of about 10,000 people. But I've always been involved with
athletics, health and wellness, started playing football as an eight-year-old, you know, played
(01:34):
baseball, played basketball, ran track. So always been really interested in. And that was about the
time we started kind of thinking about what we also eat, not as nearly as like they do today,
athletes today. But, you know, we're drinking whey protein, the Joe Weider whey protein drinks
that tasted really bad. But, you know, you're like, you have to get more protein. But then
(01:58):
after high school, then I went to college, I played football, I went to the Naval Academy first for a
year and a half, the Naval Academy Prep School, then the Academy left there and went to UPenn
and played football in the Ivy League at UPenn. So again, constantly thinking about, you know,
how we can perform better. So health and wellness. And then after that, I've just continued,
(02:18):
you know, once you stop playing football, you stop. There is no, you know, golf game or tennis,
or you can play on the weekends. So you still continue to work out, still continue to eat well.
So and then I got involved in the food business once I did graduate. You know, like a lot of my
friends who went into be investment bankers or lawyers or things like that, I actually went into
(02:40):
the food business, worked for a cheese company, then continued worked for a large French company
on ingredients. But we focused on healthy ingredients, whey proteins, caseins, caseinates,
milk proteins, stuff like that. And then started my own company. Same thing, supplying brands,
(03:00):
proteins, and healthy ingredients. And then created my brand of Never Better Foods,
kind of transitioned and started in dairy proteins first. But then as we, again, things
that started to evolve, I got really involved in like pea protein, wheat protein, sunflower
protein, different proteins and plant based foods. And as I was, you know, working in that,
(03:26):
then started first to create a plant based meat company, but it was, you know, we weren't going
to be impossible, we weren't going to be beyond meat. But wanted to create something that was
clean label, things like that. But it was just bad timing, did that about two and a half to three
years before the pandemic, pandemic hits, restaurants closed down, colleges and university
(03:46):
dining services closed down. But what I did, I took a lot of lessons out of that. Because at that
point, we're trying to be everything to everybody, going into retail, going into food service, going
into internet, doing everything. And I learned a lot of lessons, what you should and shouldn't do.
And we're taking that. But what I would do when we were demonstrating our meat products, a lot
(04:09):
of people would say, yeah, this is great. But do you have a plant based cheese? Because we can't
find a good plant based cheese. And I heard that over and over and more and more. So after, you
know, shutting down the other company, because we just, it was in a good, starting a company, it's
it takes more than six weeks or six months, you know, we're three years into this now. And we're
(04:31):
just starting to get our distribution with the Cisco's and the US Foods of the World and the
local distributors. But I brought on somebody that had an innovation background. He'd been at
Chobani for 15 years created a lot of products you see on the shelf now. And we started working on
plant based, you know, cheeses and foods. And that's how we, you know, have started this Never
(04:54):
Better Foods. So now, now we're focused on universities, colleges, hospitals, and restaurants,
and we're doing mainly food service. We've recently started on Amazon to get some products to
consumers because when I'm doing a lot of demos, even if I'm demoing for students in dining,
they're always like, hey, where can I get this? I really like this. And I'm like, you can't like
(05:17):
you were not in stores, we don't intend to be in stores for a while. But yeah, you know,
we're doing that. But yeah, you can go on Amazon now. So we're starting to do some of that
e commerce as that has changed as well after the pandemic. You know, you never thought of buying
food on on Amazon or through the internet only clothes or, or, you know, sundries or things
(05:38):
like that. But now people are even looking at food. So that's kind of the how where we started,
how I started where I'm at now. Wow, you know, it is somewhat really interesting,
you know, we won't try and reveal either of our age here, but I'm revealing I'm 59.
There you go. We started in a world where, you know, we grew up early on, most of what our
(06:01):
family made was stuff you bought in a grocery store, not a lot of packaged foods, right? Because
it was just emerging. So in the 60s, you know, you were in the grocery store and
read well. And then, you know, we had this push into a lot of packaged foods, which got us to the
highly processed world, which has had a, you know, we'll just say overall, not the most positive
(06:21):
effect on American health. Sure. And in then, you know, then there was the fringe stuff, you know,
well, you could be a vegan, but then there was a very, very small percentage and almost sort of
isolated you in a lifestyle way, because you couldn't even fit into the world, you know,
you had to do your own thing. And now we're seeing this shift, this understanding of,
well, maybe actually nutrition really does matter, you know, the food pyramid,
(06:46):
maybe it's not as accurate as we would like it to be. Maybe we don't have access to
enough proteins that are good and clean, or if we want plant-based, right, and what the benefits
of that are. And so as you're starting to lean into this and seeing this shift happen, how are
you feeling, are you optimistic that we're making a shift towards better nutrition profile for us,
(07:09):
at least in the US? Oh, yeah, I for sure, to your point, was a little bit later, I was, you know,
late 60s, early 70s, through the 70s, and into the 80s of high school growing up. And look, the fact
was, you know, we didn't really have a lot of money. I'm not going to say we were poor, but we
didn't have a lot of money. And we bought food based upon the cost. And to your point, there was
(07:33):
a lot of high fructose corn syrup added to the diets, a lot of processed and chemicals added to
food to make them cheaper. So yeah, we basically bought whatever was cheapest. That being said,
I have two daughters now, they're now 22 and 20. But what's changed is they're actually label readers,
and their generation actually does look at the label and knows what's in their food. And I think
(07:58):
that, you know, they're very conscious, and they're not buying on price. Now, obviously food,
you know, it's important that it's not so expensive that you spend all your money, because
you're already spending, you know, a good portion of what you make on your rent or your mortgage.
And then you have your food. And I would say, you know, even today, vegans, vegetarian, it's 7% of
(08:21):
the market, which is still relatively small. But in the 70% are people that want to add plant based,
at least once or twice or more, I think it depends on the age demographic you're looking at, you know,
we're working a lot with college students, high school students, so 18, we can just say 18 to 28,
(08:42):
30, which very conscious about that. And then also, once you hit, you know, your 50s or 60s,
you've probably gone to the doctor and you're the doctor saying, Hey, your cholesterol is high,
diabetes, all these things that you know, and we know that your diet has a huge impact on how you
feel and your health. So the thing there, though, is you may not know or you maybe you try to plant
(09:08):
based food, three, four or five years ago, it was terrible, didn't taste good. And I think that's a
difference to you know, I think the qualities are changing exponentially in plant based food so that
look, that's 70% of people that want to add plant based, it's going to have to taste like and feel
like texture wise what you're used to eating, or you're not going to do it, you might try it week,
(09:32):
a month, might try it a couple times. But to make it sustainable, it's still going to have to taste
good. So I think that's what we're all working towards. You know, I know at least at Never
Better Foods, we're really active and continuing even though I think that's the way we're going to
be active and continuing even though I feel like we do have the best products out there in our
(09:54):
categories, we still continue to make them better, continuing to work and look, it's we're using
natural ingredients, natural everything natural, so you know chemicals, us in particular, we're also
we try to be top nine allergen free when we can, because that's becoming more and more of an issue
that people have an allergy to dairy, to wheat, gluten free, you know, those sort of things. So I
(10:19):
think we're much more cognizant of what we're eating today than we were when we were growing up
in the 70s and 80s. So yeah, I believe it's here to stay. I think there is a shift in what we're
eating. And look, it's I don't think it's you know, red meat's not going to go away, dairy's not going
to go away. And I'm not even advocating that it should, but I do say look, I eat less red meat,
(10:45):
I'm not going to say that I don't eat any meat because I do. I eat much less and as I find more
and more products that again, taste like what I'm used to, have the same texture, if I have the
choice and it's equal, I'll lean towards the plant-based option. Yeah, no, that's great. And it is
interesting, you know, that we try and rely on the system to tell us what to do. I do find it encouraging
(11:08):
that the population of Gen Z, whichever group we want to count it as, are becoming just more
aware and less tolerant of the practices that might not have been as with deep integrity as we
would like them to have been, you know. We understand sort of why things happen, but it doesn't mean it's
(11:31):
okay that that happened. And you know, the idea that we'll soon have 10 billion people living on
the earth, you know, there's certainly enough calories available, but maybe not enough,
just pure meat protein. So we've got to look for other sources and other ways of doing that.
And you know, I think a balance of that is actually probably both advantageous to companies like yours,
(11:55):
but also to our health and wellness. Yeah, and you know, to your point, it's not only about health
and wellness anymore. Now, even younger people, I would say more so than our generation, even
sustainability is becoming something that's real. And to your point of, you know, water usage,
and it takes a lot of water on certain farming. Look, there's also a thing we can't say everything
(12:18):
plant-based, because let's just say almonds, almonds take a lot of water. So, but overall,
from a sustainability standpoint, you know, plant-based eating is not only going to help our
health, but it does help the health of the plant. Yeah. And, you know, I think you're right. I
had my journey in the plant-based world of building a product, and I was sort of arguing about, you
(12:40):
know, benefits over taste. And you find that that's for a small population, that taste.
That's a taste good. You know, the days of, like I said, taking that Joe Weider, you know,
the protein shake and plugging your nose and drinking it, because it was the benefit of eating
(13:01):
the protein shake. Those days are gone. Nobody's plugging their nose to take a drink anymore and
ask it tastes good. Again, also, if you're going to continue eating, because everybody will eat
something once or twice. Right. And they say, hey, this is better for me. I was told it was better
for me. But like you said, people to stick to something, it's got to taste good. Yeah. The
intellectual argument isn't one that we should try to win. Meaning that just the only thing that
(13:26):
matters is the benefit, because that's not how we live. Then let's not fight that battle. Let's
fight another battle, which is what you've done. So never better foods first. Love to hear how you
came up with the name. But as you thought about, you know, sort of how you compare, because cheese
is probably, you know, even if you're a person who never wants to can eat cheese, lactose intolerant
or otherwise. I mean, there are very few people when you eat cheese and feed good cheese, you're
(13:48):
like, wow, that's like an amazing product, right? So how you went into that, how you pick the name,
and then how you really got to this place of making it comparable and really tasty.
Yeah, well, you know, first, that's it's putting a team around you. So, you know, after doing this
30 years, I'm not the only guy that's done this or in my company, I mean, or our group, our team,
(14:13):
it's a team of people that come up with ideas, whether it be the name of the company, whether
it be even on the formulation, the innovation, you know, I mean, we do have specialists that that's
what they do. And we came up with cheese, because like I said, when we did the plant based meat,
and I'm a person I try to feel like I listen and I, you know, I'm looking and I'm listening
(14:36):
to what people want, not just what I think is happening. And like I said, I was hearing it more
and more like we can't find a good cheese, we can't find a good cheese. So, you know, and then we're
taking the cheese, and not only are we doing just cheese, but now we're making products with the
cheese. So at plant based ravioli, and we're using the pea protein for the meat. So we have a three
(14:59):
cheese, plant based ravioli, we have a chicken ravioli that's using pea protein, we've developed,
it's not on the market yet, but we've got a sour cream that's developed, we've got a mayo that's
developed, but you know, not getting on the business side of it, you can't be everything
to everybody. And especially when you're a startup, and you can't have 10, 15 products,
(15:21):
because it all takes time, it takes money. And the same to even get the distribution.
When we're out there, like if I present three or four products, I can keep your
the interest or make it happen. If I come to you with 10 products, you like it's too,
it's too time consuming for me to upload you this, that, the other thing. But once you and we're
establishing our brand and we are staying for quality, and that, you know, you can trust the
(15:44):
product and it's good, it tastes good. So, you know, that's part of that. Yeah. And never better
foods. Yeah, you know, we were, I was working with someone on a marketing and we were just kind of
coming up with names and wasn't sure that I even liked never better, or I think we were going to
be ever better. And then I think ever better may have been taken. And we kind of went back and
(16:07):
forth and we landed on the never better. But, you know, I'm really glad we did because when we're
out there, you know, and I, it's, you can't really see here. I mean, I even have a t-shirt with the
name and people like, just walk, I'll be walking, you know, a, at an event or something like, oh,
I love the name. I love the mic. Or even just walking down the street, somebody, I love that
name. Everybody, you guys do never better foods. That's great. Yeah. It's, it's catchy. And it has
(16:33):
that sort of both, it makes you think a little, and it also is profound in its way, right? You know,
because, oh, how could it never be better? And it's, it's fun. I always think that the word
better is a good word for us in life. You know, like define better and let's go find it. Right.
Right. You don't know what better is. You can't find it. All you do is complain. There's something
(16:55):
always better, right? You got to keep working. You got to keep striving. We're never, we're never,
you know, we have to keep working, make, make it better. That's right. So in the end, it's the part
like the, so the other part that has been a big push in the plant-based world is this move to
protein based on pee. Some of it is, well, of course we have always had a tofu protein and others,
(17:18):
but pee protein in the supplement area has really come a long way and has a good mouthfeel and a
good sort of ingredient profile. Is this surprising? You've been in the food industry for a long time,
that this has taken root in such a deep way? Well, yes and no. Like from our company, we've just made
(17:41):
a, a decision that we're not going to use soy when you mentioned tofu. Yeah. Asia soy is, you know,
it's part of the staple of a diet here in the U S it may or may not have a negative connotation.
There are people that don't want soy. I'm not saying that I'm against soy. I'm just saying as
a company, we've made a decision that we're not going to use soy. So we looked at other plant
(18:04):
based, so other plant protein sources, pee, chickpea, sunflower, you know, there's, there's
more and more coming online all the time. I would say that, you know, the difficulty with pee had
been and still to some degree is the flavor. It can be, if you're eating just a pure pee protein,
(18:27):
but even there, like again, extracting the protein has gotten better and better and the flavor more
and more neutral. And, you know, it has a good protein profile. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not
surprised, but again, I've been on the ingredient side of food for, you know, going on 30 years now.
And, but there's always, like I said, there's always something new and up and coming and,
(18:52):
you know, but pee definitely is a basis now and it's, it's widely recognized and widely used.
And it does have a positive connotation, as you've said. I think it does. Let's,
let's touch on a topic that always has a bit of a third rail kind of thing. Okay. Is this like,
well, if you're a vegan or vegetarian, how do you get your protein? You know, it's just age old,
(19:13):
the only way you can get enough protein. And if we are trying to be athletic at any level, you know,
the increasing like, well, right now, I mean, there's some people who would argue that you
should have a gram of protein for every pound you weigh, you know? So if you're even 150 pounds,
which is not a lot for an American, 150 grams of protein in the plant world, if you're not thinking,
(19:36):
seems like a reach. We know that this is not really true in the true sense, but wow,
how are you guys thinking about that? Well, you know, coming from ingredients, I know that there
is protein in pea protein, for instance, or the other, like look, a lot of your sports strengths,
they use whey protein. So they're using an 80% protein or 90% isolate protein. And those exact
(20:01):
things exist also in pea. There's pea protein that had 65%, 80%, 90%. It's tough, tougher getting up
to the 90s in pea yet, but you know, same with wheat protein, 65%. These are on as is basis. So
yeah, it's definitely, and I'm not a nutritionist, I'm not a doctor. It's just, I guess, to your
(20:24):
point of, I do live it. And then even being involved in the food industry, I'm involved in
watching, you know, I'm actually here with you at a trade show. It is about, it's called Supply Side
West, and it's about ingredients, but not only just proteins, but you know, could be lots of
different things for the sports nutrition and just the nutrition industry in general. So anyway,
(20:49):
I'm very close to that. And yeah, I think it's a misnomer that you can't get protein from plants.
There are certain vitamins and different things that you, there are some deficiencies that you
have to, you know, supplement and otherwise, but proteins are really not one of them.
That being said too, that's something we're working on with our cheese. Like if you look,
a lot of plant-based cheeses don't have a lot of protein, but cheese itself doesn't have a lot of
(21:13):
proteins, but we're working on matching that same profile, nutritional profile.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's good. I think it just needs a little bit of digging, a little education,
you know, finding the right products. I actually found that in, when I started really focusing on
protein consumption, that it, you actually design your food to fit to what you're trying to do
(21:40):
rather than just eating. I think is what a lot of Americans do. You'd probably even be hard-breast
for a normal American to know at any bit across their macros. Were you high carb today, high fat,
high protein? Right. They'd be like, I don't know, I ate three meals. What do you want me to say?
Right, right. Well, I think like with plant, like our cheeses, for instance, so
(22:01):
aside from the protein, they would know like, there's a lot of people that are lactose, the sugar,
so they're lactose intolerant. So they'll eat a plant-based cheese because we don't have lactose,
so you're going to feel better. Also no cholesterol. So in plant-based cheese, it's zero cholesterol.
So there are health benefits, and I think that's where the plant-based meats a little bit have had,
(22:23):
and they're working on that, but the struggle of is it better for you? You know, they came out
early leaning into the health benefits, definitely sustainability for the plant benefits, but
health benefits, and some people were saying, wow, you know, the highly processed, there's a lot of
ingredients in this, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, to the credit of the plant-based industry,
(22:48):
they've continued to work and make things better, less processed. I think, look with us, and that's
something that we try to do, keep minimal ingredient statements, natural ingredients,
and things like that. Yeah, no, that's good. Look, I mean, we all want to live a longer,
happier, healthier life. I mean, that is a goal. I think that sometimes we get a little bit off
(23:11):
track from that, and we're not so sure where the right source of information is or community or
the pressure people put on or what's available. And so, but I think that's a good thing.
And so, but I think we're getting higher level of awareness. You look like a pretty fit guy. I'm sure
you spend time in the gym post being a football player. Five or six days a week. Yeah, five or six days a week.
(23:36):
Not surprised at all. And so, but you find a benefit from that, like energy level is probably higher,
you know, you just feel better, then you start to eat better. These are things that we know, right?
We know that this matters. Yep. Yet we have a lot of our sort of friends in our communities that have
(23:56):
not been able to find that breakthrough. Are you seeing, Doug, any movement like it's getting better?
Do we have to do more? What can we do to help people sort of make their own breakthrough around
health and wellness? Yeah, I mean, look, inflammation, you have less inflammation with plant-based eating,
digest better, at least for me, I tell, I feel much better. Because look, I'm also a person of
(24:23):
everything in moderation. I'm not telling people, nor do I preach about you should be vegan, you
should be plant-based 100%. Look, will you feel better? You would, you know, eating more plant-based
or substituting plant-based for other, you know, foods. But look, I'm still, and I think as human
beings, we're always going to, you know, it's hard to change your habits. So why I feel there's a
(24:50):
strong, it's moving that way is because the habits of Gen Z are different than the habits that I've
had in my generation. So they're already, and not only them, probably their parents, you know, are
probably, was the beginning. And I kind of on the edge of, well, we kind of were learning about
(25:12):
stuff, but it was, you know, we're in the beginning, we were on the edge of, you know, no cell phones
when we were growing up or no internet and the food we ate. Like, so we're kind of the edge of all
these new cutting edge things. So I think, yeah, trying to convince a 60 year old, maybe in their
50s, 60s, 70s, a little difficult. However, that being said, look, like I said, they probably have
(25:36):
gone to the doctor for a checkup or they weren't feeling well and the doctor has, their doctors are
now saying, yeah, another problem in our society is we, instead of preventing things, we want to
fix it with a pill or something like that. But the preventative on your diet, and I think we understand
now how diet affects us, that, you know, people are willing to change for longevity. We all want to
(25:58):
live longer. We all want to live healthier. We don't want to live, but then feel terrible. You want to
live healthy and do what you're used to doing. Hey, it's Nathan Crane, founder of Plant Powered
Athlete. And I want to thank you for tuning in to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. And as a special
thank you, I want to give you a 10% discount code on our Plant Powered Protein scientifically formulated,
(26:20):
super clean, organic, high quality plant powered protein designed with health and performance and
longevity in mind with three super high quality adaptogens that have been shown to help improve
energy, increase focus, endurance, speed up recovery and help your body thrive. So the 10% discount
(26:40):
code, you can use the word podcast at checkout and you can get Plant Powered Protein at our website
at PlantPoweredAthlete.com. Thanks again for tuning in. Same with athletes. You know, there's
more and more, whether it's professional, college, high school, that are much more in tune with what
(27:02):
they're eating. And they probably have nutritionists on the team, you know, guiding them to eat better.
And like you said, we're learning more with the internet or, okay, you can get a lot of information
telling you both ways when you go to the internet, but you're reading a lot. So I think we've
understood that diet plays a huge, has a huge impact on our health and wellbeing and longevity,
(27:26):
recovery time, all of those things. Yeah, you know, and sometimes it's about role modeling
and behavior, you know, when enough people are showing. I like the generational arc idea,
which is, you know, cross generation. So baby boomer can learn from a Gen Z, you know, they can
find out what works because maybe we didn't have the context for thinking about that. You know,
(27:49):
sort of curious on the, you know, look, I think at the end of the day, one of the things that we
learn about behavioral change is whatever you learn the first time, it's hard to learn as fast
the second time, even I'm sure when you're playing football, you know, it's like you have to learn a
play, but you know, if you want to get better, we sometimes have to unlearn. But if there's a gateway,
(28:10):
like a cheese, like you guys have, have you for fun, like, so you're at a show or anything like
that, you have people trying and comparing and seeing if they can pick out what's a regular cheese
versus a plant based cheese. I wouldn't say that we've had a side by side comparison. What I would
say is when people eat it, they're like, wow, I can't tell the difference. Right. They say that,
(28:35):
but we haven't necessarily, you know, done a side by side comparison. Look, I don't, when you're
eating it's alone, you can't tell the difference. I think again, as human beings, if I put two
cheeses, sometimes, you know, there are slight differences. We do a pizza, we do raviolis and
(28:57):
people just say, I can't tell the difference. This is amazing. Wow. I can't tell the difference. And
we've even had for our cream cheese, for instance, some people like, I like this better than cream
cheese. So because there is a little slight difference, but cream cheese is a little specific
because some people like that, you know, that acidic flavor on the cream cheese. I'm like a
(29:17):
little different, but some people, I've had tons of people tell me, wow, I like this better than
real cream cheese. I was like, okay, cool. That is good. What else do you see on the horizon? What
are the other categories? Now, of course, we've talked about the plant based meats, which, you
know, that we use language is sort of funny to, I guess, associate, you know, with what it might be
(29:39):
like. And then you're not really making what would be defined as cheese, but it is a cheese
substitute. What other areas do you see, you know, development in as your guys are looking at this?
For us or for the industry in general? Let's say both. Okay. Well, I mean, look, the industry in
general, I think you're looking to replace almost all types of food or give an option, not replace,
(30:03):
that was a wrong word. You're trying to give an option. So like, you know, plant based milks,
huge. Oh, yeah. Go to, and I am lactose intolerant, but I'm the second level. So like I could eat
cheese and yogurt, but I can't drink liquid milk or cream or I use plant based milk. But you know,
(30:25):
whether it's Starbucks or whether it's the mom and pop local coffee shop, there are a lot of them now
have and it's, you know, the oat milk or, or soy milk or whatever. And I just read yesterday,
Starbucks is dropping the surcharge on the plant based milks at their stores, which means like it,
because it's becoming mainstream. So, and then as us as a company, like I said, we're not just a
(30:49):
plant based cheese company, we're plant based food. So we're doing the ravioli, where we use our plant
based cheese and meats inside. We're developed a plant based burrito, like a high protein plant
based burrito. There's a lot of foods and a lot of things that you can, you know, replace the cheese
or the meat in and, you know, have a plant based product. So, you know, you see a lot of, you're
(31:13):
seeing more and more plant based pizzas out there, right? Which get better and better, the pre-made,
you know, in the store, stuff like that. So yeah, I think, I think look across a lot of different
foods, it's almost like any food you can think of. There's going to be an option for a plant based.
I still feel that, look, we're probably, pick a number, but five, six years away from really
(31:38):
exploding, but like every year it exponentially continues to grow. And that's, that's a generational
thing. Like I said, I think as the younger, the Gen Z's get older, they're eating more and more,
you know, it's growing and it's, I think it's a testament to the people that are making the
products that they're getting better and better. And there's still some bad ones out there. Don't
get me wrong. I even go to trade shows sometime and I'm eating something like, I don't think you
(32:02):
were ready for the show yet, but hey, okay. You know, but then again, there's a lot that you go,
wow, this was an amazing, you know, I've tasted hot dogs that I can't believe it's not a real hot
dog or it's not a meat based hot dog or lots of different foods. Lots of different foods.
I was in a Providence, Rhode Island a couple of weeks ago and I ate a restaurant called Plant City
(32:23):
and we had three restaurants. And so we ate at the burger place and I had a, a pastrami sandwich.
Like I was, you know, from New York city with sour cream, sauerkraut. And I swear to you, I could
not, I was like, I haven't had one in 30 years, cause I haven't eaten one in 30 years.
I haven't, if it was not, if this was like a regular restaurant and he told me it was a vegan
(32:48):
product, I would have said, no, you guys are kidding me. They use seitan, marinated seitan,
that same red color was sliced thin. It was, I was literally like, if it's like that, you,
you can't even imagine that would matter. Right. Right. Incredible. Yeah. And I think that's the
point. Look, things are getting closer and closer to what we're used to. And then like, you know,
(33:14):
the Gen Z and younger people, if this is what they're eating, this is going to be what they're
used to. Right. That's going to become the, the standard of what you're used to. I see that even,
you know, in restaurants and a lot more restaurants are more open and engaging because
it used to be one person out of the four at the table when it wanted a plant-based option.
(33:36):
Then it's become two and is slowly flipping to three. And now it's the, the, the, the person
that's not eating plant-based is, is more and more of that. I don't want to say use the word
of a minority of the table, but like, you know, it's flipping a little bit. So I still think we're
six, 10 years away from it reading, but it's, it's on the way. It's definitely on the way.
(33:58):
Yeah. I agree with you. I think it was pretty remarkable. Not a lot of listeners here would
know 11 Madison, which is excellent star restaurant was three star before the pandemic and then
closed. It opened up as a vegan restaurant and got three stars again. I think the point that David,
who's the chef who proved that you can work with plants, whatever, to whatever level you want them
(34:23):
to go to, it's not just the only way you can get there is with one of the four kinds of meats,
you know, it's a chicken or Turkey or pork or beef and neck. And so I think it was very exciting,
even if you never wanted to eat it, probably couldn't most couldn't afford to eat there,
but it shows the versatility, the power of the flavor profiles, um, as well as sort of the
(34:45):
creativity that one could bring to cooking with plants. Yeah. And like you said, uh, it's quite
expensive to eat there and you can't get in. So obviously there's something, uh, that is
taking hold there because, uh, when it's, you know, the prices that, uh, look, all restaurants
are expensive, but it's very expensive that met there and you can't even get a reservation
(35:08):
or, or you have to wait two weeks or whatever it is, you know, so yeah, no, it is. It's like
$350 a person. If you wanted to go have a meal, but it is one of those experiences that, you know,
you'd be remembering for a long time, especially about to that, you know, you can go in with an
open mind and say, this is actually just as good as anything else I would have ever eaten. Right.
(35:30):
Right. Right. And that's the key, right? Over time. Uh, you know, when we think about plants,
um, you know, the other one I'm sort of curious if you guys are looking into a lot is that,
so the mushroom is one of the most powerful, you know, um, it's not a plant, of course,
it's a fungi, but it's in plant category. It's mycelium though, as both, you know,
(35:54):
sort of a protein source, as well as a very meat like structure to it create a lot of really good
mouth feel. Have you guys been using or thinking about mycelium? Yeah, we, we actually were even
using a much type product in our cream cheese and then they stopped making it, but, um, we're
definitely, uh, and that's some things you go through with plant-based too, because, you know,
(36:19):
things are very expensive early, uh, until you can get to scale and make things and, or the market
demands or wanting that volume. But I'm also working with it, like on our plant-based burrito,
using mushroom based meat. Um, cause now you can get a shred or a, or a ground meat using a mushroom
(36:40):
that again, if you didn't know, and you didn't say to someone, they wouldn't even be able to
tell the difference. Yeah. It has that sort of umami, unctuous taste that meat has. Well,
I haven't had meat in a long time, but I do know that, uh, some of these are like, yeah, cooked
properly, but that's like anything. Yeah. It really is quite remarkable. You're like, oh, I think I'll
(37:02):
have this again. Yeah. And you add flavor to it, right? Or add spices or things like that. So you're
not even necessarily eating, well, at least when I've done these things, like you're not eating the
straight, you know, mushroom, you're, you're, you're, you're seasoning it and you can't tell
the difference. And so that's the point you're looking for the flavor and you're looking for
the texture. And it definitely gives you the texture of meat. So yeah, like a jackfruit, right?
(37:25):
And you can make a pulled pork simulation out of a jackfruit, which is a plant and you serve it. If
you have enough barbecue sauce on there, no one would know exactly. Exactly. It's what you do like
that. So, you know, one of the things that we keep thinking about is sort of, you know, when we
intersect, you know, nutrition and activity, um, I'm in the ultra endurance space as a runner,
(37:53):
you know, Nathan founder of plant power, athlete is a CrossFit guy is vegan, you know,
and then you're in the gym a lot. Do you think that there's a big difference in, in the activities
the kinds of foods we should be taking in? Or do you think it's really, um, you know, understanding
these three macros of protein and fat and carbohydrates and trying to think that way?
(38:18):
How do you guys think about that? That's an interesting, that's an interesting question.
Well, I think, yeah, it's probably getting the sources of that protein, carbs, fats, um,
and then how they break down in your body, how your body absorbs them,
um, eliminates them, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas, you know, the, the, the plant based sources,
(38:41):
you have less inflammation in your body. So you can recover faster. Yeah.
But yeah, I still think you still have to have, and that is the argument with athletes, you know,
you have to make sure you're getting your protein, you're getting the, the fats, the carbs and that
sort of thing. But I think the point is you can get them from a plant based source, like you can
(39:01):
like you can any other source. That's my, no, I think that's right. I think the interesting thing
is that the more active we are, the more food we can tolerate, you know, because it has a purpose,
right? And it's when we're not active that too much food is problematic, you know, uh, but you
know, cause like, I don't know, way much more than 150 pounds. Uh, and so sometimes, you know, some
(39:27):
people are like, you're going to eat all that food. I'm like, you know, if you're running seven to 10
miles a day, you can't do that without food. So, yeah. And look, there's more and more professional
and people look towards, um, other examples and you're seeing more and more athletes, professional
athletes across whatever sport could be endurance running to professional football, the NBA, uh,
(39:52):
that are eating plant-based and they have a better recovery and then their teammates see them or they
talk about it. I mean, you know, Tom Brady was talking about being, uh, basically played till
he was in his forties, you know, and you know, how much of that could have also contributed to his
diet. Obviously he says his diet had a huge impact. Um, so, and he's not alone. There's just a lot
(40:16):
that maybe not as famous as Tom Brady, but there's a lot of athletes that, um, are moving more and
more and more that way. Yeah. I think it's interesting point, which is that, you know,
so we use words that some people sort of don't really fully understand the implication. So this
word inflammation, right? So some inflammation is good, right? You know, the body's signaling
(40:37):
and then there's other inflammation where we're actually wearing ourselves out for no good purpose.
I mean, you know, no, to your similar, Doug, in that, you know, you're not trying to judge anyone
alcohol is inflammation, right? That people can have a beer and a wine. They can drink whatever
they want, but you have to know that it's doing something to you. Right. It's the same when you
have a ultra processed food. It is, we have to work so hard within our system to do something with
(41:04):
it. Now, if we take stuff, that's a little bit closer to either what grew out of the ground
or has less chemicals in it. Then I do think if you're an athlete and you're pushing yourself,
you're not creating more inflammation than the athletic endeavor creates to begin with.
Right. Right. Yeah. I agree. 100%.
So, you know, I have to find, uh, and you go to the gym five to six days a week. I think one of the,
(41:30):
uh, sort of like this, we'll call old wives tales that I would sort of suggest is that
some people think that too much activity is bad. Um, I find actually I get less sore,
the more activity I do. And so, but that's because, you know, if you sleep enough, you eat right,
and you do the activity in a, you know, in the correct form and don't overdo something,
(41:52):
you know, it isn't our system can handle it. It knows when it can't.
Yeah. And look, I mean, even though I go five to six days a week, yeah, when I was 18,
I'd sit in the gym for an hour and a half, two hours. I'm in the gym for 20 to 45 minutes.
I'm in, I'm out now that, that doesn't count cardio. If I'm going to do any cardio,
which they say you should do 20 minutes to 30, whatever. But yeah, I, I just go,
(42:16):
I get my workout. I go in, I'm out 20, 40 minutes. Um, same thing. I go when I can throughout the day.
It's not like I go every day at seven PM or seven AM. I kind of, it's, I find it, but I,
what I do notice is if I don't go, and it could be psychological too, but I just, I don't feel as good
that if I'm not in the gym, uh, you know, that 20 minutes to 45 minutes, I just, I,
(42:41):
I can skip a day now and then, like, cause that's even me in business when I'm traveling.
I can't hit it five, six days a week, every single week, you know, of the year. And we do need a
break too. If I knew, I know there are times, you know, to take that week off or 10 days off is good
for the body as well. Um, but definitely you can feel it. I feel much better, uh, going to the gym
(43:03):
and exercising versus not, or you don't even have to go to the gym, you know, walking outside,
ride a bike, you know, whatever it's, it doesn't have to be, that's just for me. That's what works
for me. Yeah. No, I think it works. I think the human system is made to move. Yeah. It wasn't made
to be stationary. No, there's nothing in it that would design. It's all designed for movement.
Um, it's designed to take the word we've created a negative association with is the word stress.
(43:28):
Stress actually is where growth happens, both physically and mentally, intellectually, all of
that, even if you thought about your product design, you know, you guys come up with good
ideas because you create some strain, right? Like it was like, Oh, that stress created some creativity.
And so we're actually very good at that. Um, it's when we don't use it, when we try and kick it into
(43:49):
gear again for a little while, it's like, Oh, I got to move. So more seems to be better. Um,
do you guys, so just a couple more questions and we'll let you get back to the show. Uh,
do you think internationally how we compare and what we're doing in the U S favorably,
unfavorably to the world and how food is developing?
(44:11):
Well, well, that's a good question too. I mean, look, I look favorably upon the U S however,
I would also say there are other regions of the world that are probably even more advanced than
us on plant-based. I can't say Europe in general, but like there are countries and areas within
(44:33):
Europe as well as the food, just the food chain in general. I'm not even speaking plant-based
in general, like there are much more, uh, laws and regulations about what you should not be doing
with the food supply in Europe or in Asia, uh, than there are in the United States. I mean,
(44:54):
I was just, and now I can't even remember it. I was looking, um, and I just started following
them on Instagram, but they just did a, an event at Kellogg's in Michigan last week or two and
compared the ingredient statement of fruit loops in Europe and fruit in the U S and the amount of
sugar in the U S foods as which, you know, it's brings the cost out and then the, uh, chemical
(45:18):
coloring here versus natural coloring of Europe. Yeah. I think we still have a lot of work to do
in the United States. Now we are, you know, obviously there is cost and that's one reason
it's a lot cheaper to process the food, to add sugars, add high fructose corn syrup, all these
things, but like, I'm not going to say that we're, we're terrible in U S we do, we a lot of good
(45:42):
things in the U S too. And even when I have, and I work a lot in Europe and we source ingredients
in Europe and things like that. And when Europeans come here, they're just amazed at like the, uh,
uh, what they would call the basis of the food, you know, that's here. We have really good, the
base, the base of it, uh, on certain things on the natural, like on the vegetables or on the
(46:06):
even, you know, other things. So, yeah, yeah. I know. I, I think that it's interesting the way
that I always think that we can sort of mimic a little bit more of European way of eating is our
community supported agriculture where local farming is supporting and supplying local communities.
Yeah. That's a much more sort of European style of food distribution. Yeah. I think farming in
(46:32):
general, I mean, I'm here with someone from France this week and you know, they're already talking
about supply going down 1% over each per year of the next few, just based upon younger people
don't want to farm. Like it's a lot of work, uh, for not a lot of money and you're working
really hard. And, you know, I think farming is something that is a topic that, you know,
(46:55):
probably needs a little bit more looking. And even in the U S it's becoming more and more the
corporate farms or larger farms, no matter whether it's for meats or vegetables or whatever it is,
it's, you know, larger and larger corporation farms, almost the family farms kind of going
away from when I was a kid. Oh yeah. I think that the data says that in 1890, 90 plus percent of
(47:16):
Americans were farmers and today 2% of Americans are farmers. Yeah. So that's, as a shift in 150
years that you would sort of almost never imagined could have happened, but yeah, we've figured out
some good in some bad ways, how to right a lot and harvest a lot with not a lot of people. Right.
So the last question for you, Doug is, you know, if someone's listening to the podcast and wants to
(47:41):
endeavor, um, a little bit more into plant-based, you know, maybe they are plant-based, not fully,
or they're not, but what suggestions do you have for people as they think about a plant-based journey?
Well, I think you just have to, as we said, it's hard to change a habit. I think you, you just got
to dive in. You got to, you know, go to Whole Foods first. I mean, look like I'm not a Whole
(48:06):
Food. We're not even selling it to Whole Foods. I'm just saying like that or a Trader Joe's or,
you know, just to see the options that are out there and try certain things. And I think you'll
find, um, and you would be surprised if you're not plant-based, you'll be surprised at, you know,
the quality and how things are much better today. Um, and if you are plant-based, you know, there's
(48:32):
still new products coming out all the time that you, you know, it's worth the, worth giving a try,
but it's, it's more of a mental, you just have to make that decision and, you know, get over the
stigma of, oh, plant-based, it's not as good. There's not as much protein or, oh, vegetarians
are, you know, crazy about the way they think about foods. And, you know, uh, like I think that is
(48:55):
changing and we are seeing, you know, the marketing to help that if you call something a vegan, uh,
chili, you know, there's a small, call it plant-based chili a week, month later, it's like
flying off the shelf. So I also seeing the dynamics changing as we speak, uh, just about even the
(49:17):
presentation of the foods. Yeah. And so if we, we can go to Amazon and look for Never Better Foods,
correct? Yes. Yep. Yep. We have, uh, some of, not all of our items, but some of our items are there,
like our mozzarella, our cheddar, we're going to have our cream cheese soon. Um, yeah. And we will
eventually start even going into some, like more of the local groceries, uh, independence, uh,
(49:41):
uh, from a purely business standpoint, it costs a lot of money to be in Whole Foods and,
and Albertsons and these guys be due to the buying the shelf space, doing the marketing
monies, like all of these things. So look, it is our plan to eventually be there. And a lot of
people say, Hey, why aren't you in Whole Foods? Why aren't you in Whole Foods? And, uh, you know,
eventually we will, but it's a plan. It's a journey. And, you know, even for colleges,
(50:04):
we'll start selling in their commissaries, you know, because they're used to eating our foods
now in the dining hall, but your freshmen and sophomores eating in the dining hall, the juniors
and seniors eat at home, like in their apartment. So we're starting to offer our products for sale
in consumer size packs like that way as well. But for the person watching this, yeah. Amazon for sure.
(50:25):
Yeah. So that's great. Everyone, um, you know, become a fan of never better foods, Doug,
we appreciate what you and the team are working towards. It's good for all of us, uh, to increase
plant-based eating, you know, better energy, you know, sort of better living, health and wellness,
the forefront of what we want to think about and, uh, keep going. We're, uh, we're right behind you.
Yeah. And thank you, Joe. I mean, with you and the, uh, plant powered athlete and things,
(50:49):
I've started to follow that and you guys are doing a great job getting the message out there and,
you know, keep it, keep it up. All right. Thanks very much. All right. Thanks, Joe.
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. I'm Joe Gagnon, co-host of the podcast.
(00:05):
Today I have a really great guest with us, a guy who's sort of been very much committed on a
journey for many years, a career that's one where he has leaned into the food industry,
has moved into the plant-based food part. He's a supplier, he's a creator,
he focuses on health and wellness. I have Doug Cantner with me. I think we're going to have a
(00:27):
fun conversation. As you know, everyone, we always start off in the pre-podcast with some of the most
fun, but we'll get to that in a second. Hey, Doug, thanks for being with us on the podcast today.
Thank you, Joe. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm sure that we can all
hit LinkedIn or read articles about what you've been up to, but I always find it sort of interesting
(00:48):
because, you know, all of us have had a journey of sort of discovery around health and wellness,
generally speaking. This is about the food we eat, the exercise, the community, even our value system
and the choices we've made and how that ends up affecting our lives, right? I mean, I'm sure that
when you were a kid, you weren't thinking you're going to be a CEO and founder of all these companies.
(01:09):
So tell us a little bit about where you grew up, you know, what your journey through food and
exercise and health and wellness was and how we got to today. Yeah, so I grew up in a little town,
Wapakoneta, Ohio. It's a little farm town of about 10,000 people. But I've always been involved with
athletics, health and wellness, started playing football as an eight-year-old, you know, played
(01:34):
baseball, played basketball, ran track. So always been really interested in. And that was about the
time we started kind of thinking about what we also eat, not as nearly as like they do today,
athletes today. But, you know, we're drinking whey protein, the Joe Weider whey protein drinks
that tasted really bad. But, you know, you're like, you have to get more protein. But then
(01:58):
after high school, then I went to college, I played football, I went to the Naval Academy first for a
year and a half, the Naval Academy Prep School, then the Academy left there and went to UPenn
and played football in the Ivy League at UPenn. So again, constantly thinking about, you know,
how we can perform better. So health and wellness. And then after that, I've just continued,
(02:18):
you know, once you stop playing football, you stop. There is no, you know, golf game or tennis,
or you can play on the weekends. So you still continue to work out, still continue to eat well.
So and then I got involved in the food business once I did graduate. You know, like a lot of my
friends who went into be investment bankers or lawyers or things like that, I actually went into
(02:40):
the food business, worked for a cheese company, then continued worked for a large French company
on ingredients. But we focused on healthy ingredients, whey proteins, caseins, caseinates,
milk proteins, stuff like that. And then started my own company. Same thing, supplying brands,
(03:00):
proteins, and healthy ingredients. And then created my brand of Never Better Foods,
kind of transitioned and started in dairy proteins first. But then as we, again, things
that started to evolve, I got really involved in like pea protein, wheat protein, sunflower
protein, different proteins and plant based foods. And as I was, you know, working in that,
(03:26):
then started first to create a plant based meat company, but it was, you know, we weren't going
to be impossible, we weren't going to be beyond meat. But wanted to create something that was
clean label, things like that. But it was just bad timing, did that about two and a half to three
years before the pandemic, pandemic hits, restaurants closed down, colleges and university
(03:46):
dining services closed down. But what I did, I took a lot of lessons out of that. Because at that
point, we're trying to be everything to everybody, going into retail, going into food service, going
into internet, doing everything. And I learned a lot of lessons, what you should and shouldn't do.
And we're taking that. But what I would do when we were demonstrating our meat products, a lot
(04:09):
of people would say, yeah, this is great. But do you have a plant based cheese? Because we can't
find a good plant based cheese. And I heard that over and over and more and more. So after, you
know, shutting down the other company, because we just, it was in a good, starting a company, it's
it takes more than six weeks or six months, you know, we're three years into this now. And we're
(04:31):
just starting to get our distribution with the Cisco's and the US Foods of the World and the
local distributors. But I brought on somebody that had an innovation background. He'd been at
Chobani for 15 years created a lot of products you see on the shelf now. And we started working on
plant based, you know, cheeses and foods. And that's how we, you know, have started this Never
(04:54):
Better Foods. So now, now we're focused on universities, colleges, hospitals, and restaurants,
and we're doing mainly food service. We've recently started on Amazon to get some products to
consumers because when I'm doing a lot of demos, even if I'm demoing for students in dining,
they're always like, hey, where can I get this? I really like this. And I'm like, you can't like
(05:17):
you were not in stores, we don't intend to be in stores for a while. But yeah, you know,
we're doing that. But yeah, you can go on Amazon now. So we're starting to do some of that
e commerce as that has changed as well after the pandemic. You know, you never thought of buying
food on on Amazon or through the internet only clothes or, or, you know, sundries or things
(05:38):
like that. But now people are even looking at food. So that's kind of the how where we started,
how I started where I'm at now. Wow, you know, it is somewhat really interesting,
you know, we won't try and reveal either of our age here, but I'm revealing I'm 59.
There you go. We started in a world where, you know, we grew up early on, most of what our
(06:01):
family made was stuff you bought in a grocery store, not a lot of packaged foods, right? Because
it was just emerging. So in the 60s, you know, you were in the grocery store and
read well. And then, you know, we had this push into a lot of packaged foods, which got us to the
highly processed world, which has had a, you know, we'll just say overall, not the most positive
(06:21):
effect on American health. Sure. And in then, you know, then there was the fringe stuff, you know,
well, you could be a vegan, but then there was a very, very small percentage and almost sort of
isolated you in a lifestyle way, because you couldn't even fit into the world, you know,
you had to do your own thing. And now we're seeing this shift, this understanding of,
well, maybe actually nutrition really does matter, you know, the food pyramid,
(06:46):
maybe it's not as accurate as we would like it to be. Maybe we don't have access to
enough proteins that are good and clean, or if we want plant-based, right, and what the benefits
of that are. And so as you're starting to lean into this and seeing this shift happen, how are
you feeling, are you optimistic that we're making a shift towards better nutrition profile for us,
(07:09):
at least in the US? Oh, yeah, I for sure, to your point, was a little bit later, I was, you know,
late 60s, early 70s, through the 70s, and into the 80s of high school growing up. And look, the fact
was, you know, we didn't really have a lot of money. I'm not going to say we were poor, but we
didn't have a lot of money. And we bought food based upon the cost. And to your point, there was
(07:33):
a lot of high fructose corn syrup added to the diets, a lot of processed and chemicals added to
food to make them cheaper. So yeah, we basically bought whatever was cheapest. That being said,
I have two daughters now, they're now 22 and 20. But what's changed is they're actually label readers,
and their generation actually does look at the label and knows what's in their food. And I think
(07:58):
that, you know, they're very conscious, and they're not buying on price. Now, obviously food,
you know, it's important that it's not so expensive that you spend all your money, because
you're already spending, you know, a good portion of what you make on your rent or your mortgage.
And then you have your food. And I would say, you know, even today, vegans, vegetarian, it's 7% of
(08:21):
the market, which is still relatively small. But in the 70% are people that want to add plant based,
at least once or twice or more, I think it depends on the age demographic you're looking at, you know,
we're working a lot with college students, high school students, so 18, we can just say 18 to 28,
(08:42):
30, which very conscious about that. And then also, once you hit, you know, your 50s or 60s,
you've probably gone to the doctor and you're the doctor saying, Hey, your cholesterol is high,
diabetes, all these things that you know, and we know that your diet has a huge impact on how you
feel and your health. So the thing there, though, is you may not know or you maybe you try to plant
(09:08):
based food, three, four or five years ago, it was terrible, didn't taste good. And I think that's a
difference to you know, I think the qualities are changing exponentially in plant based food so that
look, that's 70% of people that want to add plant based, it's going to have to taste like and feel
like texture wise what you're used to eating, or you're not going to do it, you might try it week,
(09:32):
a month, might try it a couple times. But to make it sustainable, it's still going to have to taste
good. So I think that's what we're all working towards. You know, I know at least at Never
Better Foods, we're really active and continuing even though I think that's the way we're going to
be active and continuing even though I feel like we do have the best products out there in our
(09:54):
categories, we still continue to make them better, continuing to work and look, it's we're using
natural ingredients, natural everything natural, so you know chemicals, us in particular, we're also
we try to be top nine allergen free when we can, because that's becoming more and more of an issue
that people have an allergy to dairy, to wheat, gluten free, you know, those sort of things. So I
(10:19):
think we're much more cognizant of what we're eating today than we were when we were growing up
in the 70s and 80s. So yeah, I believe it's here to stay. I think there is a shift in what we're
eating. And look, it's I don't think it's you know, red meat's not going to go away, dairy's not going
to go away. And I'm not even advocating that it should, but I do say look, I eat less red meat,
(10:45):
I'm not going to say that I don't eat any meat because I do. I eat much less and as I find more
and more products that again, taste like what I'm used to, have the same texture, if I have the
choice and it's equal, I'll lean towards the plant-based option. Yeah, no, that's great. And it is
interesting, you know, that we try and rely on the system to tell us what to do. I do find it encouraging
(11:08):
that the population of Gen Z, whichever group we want to count it as, are becoming just more
aware and less tolerant of the practices that might not have been as with deep integrity as we
would like them to have been, you know. We understand sort of why things happen, but it doesn't mean it's
(11:31):
okay that that happened. And you know, the idea that we'll soon have 10 billion people living on
the earth, you know, there's certainly enough calories available, but maybe not enough,
just pure meat protein. So we've got to look for other sources and other ways of doing that.
And you know, I think a balance of that is actually probably both advantageous to companies like yours,
(11:55):
but also to our health and wellness. Yeah, and you know, to your point, it's not only about health
and wellness anymore. Now, even younger people, I would say more so than our generation, even
sustainability is becoming something that's real. And to your point of, you know, water usage,
and it takes a lot of water on certain farming. Look, there's also a thing we can't say everything
(12:18):
plant-based, because let's just say almonds, almonds take a lot of water. So, but overall,
from a sustainability standpoint, you know, plant-based eating is not only going to help our
health, but it does help the health of the plant. Yeah. And, you know, I think you're right. I
had my journey in the plant-based world of building a product, and I was sort of arguing about, you
(12:40):
know, benefits over taste. And you find that that's for a small population, that taste.
That's a taste good. You know, the days of, like I said, taking that Joe Weider, you know,
the protein shake and plugging your nose and drinking it, because it was the benefit of eating
(13:01):
the protein shake. Those days are gone. Nobody's plugging their nose to take a drink anymore and
ask it tastes good. Again, also, if you're going to continue eating, because everybody will eat
something once or twice. Right. And they say, hey, this is better for me. I was told it was better
for me. But like you said, people to stick to something, it's got to taste good. Yeah. The
intellectual argument isn't one that we should try to win. Meaning that just the only thing that
(13:26):
matters is the benefit, because that's not how we live. Then let's not fight that battle. Let's
fight another battle, which is what you've done. So never better foods first. Love to hear how you
came up with the name. But as you thought about, you know, sort of how you compare, because cheese
is probably, you know, even if you're a person who never wants to can eat cheese, lactose intolerant
or otherwise. I mean, there are very few people when you eat cheese and feed good cheese, you're
(13:48):
like, wow, that's like an amazing product, right? So how you went into that, how you pick the name,
and then how you really got to this place of making it comparable and really tasty.
Yeah, well, you know, first, that's it's putting a team around you. So, you know, after doing this
30 years, I'm not the only guy that's done this or in my company, I mean, or our group, our team,
(14:13):
it's a team of people that come up with ideas, whether it be the name of the company, whether
it be even on the formulation, the innovation, you know, I mean, we do have specialists that that's
what they do. And we came up with cheese, because like I said, when we did the plant based meat,
and I'm a person I try to feel like I listen and I, you know, I'm looking and I'm listening
(14:36):
to what people want, not just what I think is happening. And like I said, I was hearing it more
and more like we can't find a good cheese, we can't find a good cheese. So, you know, and then we're
taking the cheese, and not only are we doing just cheese, but now we're making products with the
cheese. So at plant based ravioli, and we're using the pea protein for the meat. So we have a three
(14:59):
cheese, plant based ravioli, we have a chicken ravioli that's using pea protein, we've developed,
it's not on the market yet, but we've got a sour cream that's developed, we've got a mayo that's
developed, but you know, not getting on the business side of it, you can't be everything
to everybody. And especially when you're a startup, and you can't have 10, 15 products,
(15:21):
because it all takes time, it takes money. And the same to even get the distribution.
When we're out there, like if I present three or four products, I can keep your
the interest or make it happen. If I come to you with 10 products, you like it's too,
it's too time consuming for me to upload you this, that, the other thing. But once you and we're
establishing our brand and we are staying for quality, and that, you know, you can trust the
(15:44):
product and it's good, it tastes good. So, you know, that's part of that. Yeah. And never better
foods. Yeah, you know, we were, I was working with someone on a marketing and we were just kind of
coming up with names and wasn't sure that I even liked never better, or I think we were going to
be ever better. And then I think ever better may have been taken. And we kind of went back and
(16:07):
forth and we landed on the never better. But, you know, I'm really glad we did because when we're
out there, you know, and I, it's, you can't really see here. I mean, I even have a t-shirt with the
name and people like, just walk, I'll be walking, you know, a, at an event or something like, oh,
I love the name. I love the mic. Or even just walking down the street, somebody, I love that
name. Everybody, you guys do never better foods. That's great. Yeah. It's, it's catchy. And it has
(16:33):
that sort of both, it makes you think a little, and it also is profound in its way, right? You know,
because, oh, how could it never be better? And it's, it's fun. I always think that the word
better is a good word for us in life. You know, like define better and let's go find it. Right.
Right. You don't know what better is. You can't find it. All you do is complain. There's something
(16:55):
always better, right? You got to keep working. You got to keep striving. We're never, we're never,
you know, we have to keep working, make, make it better. That's right. So in the end, it's the part
like the, so the other part that has been a big push in the plant-based world is this move to
protein based on pee. Some of it is, well, of course we have always had a tofu protein and others,
(17:18):
but pee protein in the supplement area has really come a long way and has a good mouthfeel and a
good sort of ingredient profile. Is this surprising? You've been in the food industry for a long time,
that this has taken root in such a deep way? Well, yes and no. Like from our company, we've just made
(17:41):
a, a decision that we're not going to use soy when you mentioned tofu. Yeah. Asia soy is, you know,
it's part of the staple of a diet here in the U S it may or may not have a negative connotation.
There are people that don't want soy. I'm not saying that I'm against soy. I'm just saying as
a company, we've made a decision that we're not going to use soy. So we looked at other plant
(18:04):
based, so other plant protein sources, pee, chickpea, sunflower, you know, there's, there's
more and more coming online all the time. I would say that, you know, the difficulty with pee had
been and still to some degree is the flavor. It can be, if you're eating just a pure pee protein,
(18:27):
but even there, like again, extracting the protein has gotten better and better and the flavor more
and more neutral. And, you know, it has a good protein profile. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not
surprised, but again, I've been on the ingredient side of food for, you know, going on 30 years now.
And, but there's always, like I said, there's always something new and up and coming and,
(18:52):
you know, but pee definitely is a basis now and it's, it's widely recognized and widely used.
And it does have a positive connotation, as you've said. I think it does. Let's,
let's touch on a topic that always has a bit of a third rail kind of thing. Okay. Is this like,
well, if you're a vegan or vegetarian, how do you get your protein? You know, it's just age old,
(19:13):
the only way you can get enough protein. And if we are trying to be athletic at any level, you know,
the increasing like, well, right now, I mean, there's some people who would argue that you
should have a gram of protein for every pound you weigh, you know? So if you're even 150 pounds,
which is not a lot for an American, 150 grams of protein in the plant world, if you're not thinking,
(19:36):
seems like a reach. We know that this is not really true in the true sense, but wow,
how are you guys thinking about that? Well, you know, coming from ingredients, I know that there
is protein in pea protein, for instance, or the other, like look, a lot of your sports strengths,
they use whey protein. So they're using an 80% protein or 90% isolate protein. And those exact
(20:01):
things exist also in pea. There's pea protein that had 65%, 80%, 90%. It's tough, tougher getting up
to the 90s in pea yet, but you know, same with wheat protein, 65%. These are on as is basis. So
yeah, it's definitely, and I'm not a nutritionist, I'm not a doctor. It's just, I guess, to your
(20:24):
point of, I do live it. And then even being involved in the food industry, I'm involved in
watching, you know, I'm actually here with you at a trade show. It is about, it's called Supply Side
West, and it's about ingredients, but not only just proteins, but you know, could be lots of
different things for the sports nutrition and just the nutrition industry in general. So anyway,
(20:49):
I'm very close to that. And yeah, I think it's a misnomer that you can't get protein from plants.
There are certain vitamins and different things that you, there are some deficiencies that you
have to, you know, supplement and otherwise, but proteins are really not one of them.
That being said too, that's something we're working on with our cheese. Like if you look,
a lot of plant-based cheeses don't have a lot of protein, but cheese itself doesn't have a lot of
(21:13):
proteins, but we're working on matching that same profile, nutritional profile.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's good. I think it just needs a little bit of digging, a little education,
you know, finding the right products. I actually found that in, when I started really focusing on
protein consumption, that it, you actually design your food to fit to what you're trying to do
(21:40):
rather than just eating. I think is what a lot of Americans do. You'd probably even be hard-breast
for a normal American to know at any bit across their macros. Were you high carb today, high fat,
high protein? Right. They'd be like, I don't know, I ate three meals. What do you want me to say?
Right, right. Well, I think like with plant, like our cheeses, for instance, so
(22:01):
aside from the protein, they would know like, there's a lot of people that are lactose, the sugar,
so they're lactose intolerant. So they'll eat a plant-based cheese because we don't have lactose,
so you're going to feel better. Also no cholesterol. So in plant-based cheese, it's zero cholesterol.
So there are health benefits, and I think that's where the plant-based meats a little bit have had,
(22:23):
and they're working on that, but the struggle of is it better for you? You know, they came out
early leaning into the health benefits, definitely sustainability for the plant benefits, but
health benefits, and some people were saying, wow, you know, the highly processed, there's a lot of
ingredients in this, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, to the credit of the plant-based industry,
(22:48):
they've continued to work and make things better, less processed. I think, look with us, and that's
something that we try to do, keep minimal ingredient statements, natural ingredients,
and things like that. Yeah, no, that's good. Look, I mean, we all want to live a longer,
happier, healthier life. I mean, that is a goal. I think that sometimes we get a little bit off
(23:11):
track from that, and we're not so sure where the right source of information is or community or
the pressure people put on or what's available. And so, but I think that's a good thing.
And so, but I think we're getting higher level of awareness. You look like a pretty fit guy. I'm sure
you spend time in the gym post being a football player. Five or six days a week. Yeah, five or six days a week.
(23:36):
Not surprised at all. And so, but you find a benefit from that, like energy level is probably higher,
you know, you just feel better, then you start to eat better. These are things that we know, right?
We know that this matters. Yep. Yet we have a lot of our sort of friends in our communities that have
(23:56):
not been able to find that breakthrough. Are you seeing, Doug, any movement like it's getting better?
Do we have to do more? What can we do to help people sort of make their own breakthrough around
health and wellness? Yeah, I mean, look, inflammation, you have less inflammation with plant-based eating,
digest better, at least for me, I tell, I feel much better. Because look, I'm also a person of
(24:23):
everything in moderation. I'm not telling people, nor do I preach about you should be vegan, you
should be plant-based 100%. Look, will you feel better? You would, you know, eating more plant-based
or substituting plant-based for other, you know, foods. But look, I'm still, and I think as human
beings, we're always going to, you know, it's hard to change your habits. So why I feel there's a
(24:50):
strong, it's moving that way is because the habits of Gen Z are different than the habits that I've
had in my generation. So they're already, and not only them, probably their parents, you know, are
probably, was the beginning. And I kind of on the edge of, well, we kind of were learning about
(25:12):
stuff, but it was, you know, we're in the beginning, we were on the edge of, you know, no cell phones
when we were growing up or no internet and the food we ate. Like, so we're kind of the edge of all
these new cutting edge things. So I think, yeah, trying to convince a 60 year old, maybe in their
50s, 60s, 70s, a little difficult. However, that being said, look, like I said, they probably have
(25:36):
gone to the doctor for a checkup or they weren't feeling well and the doctor has, their doctors are
now saying, yeah, another problem in our society is we, instead of preventing things, we want to
fix it with a pill or something like that. But the preventative on your diet, and I think we understand
now how diet affects us, that, you know, people are willing to change for longevity. We all want to
(25:58):
live longer. We all want to live healthier. We don't want to live, but then feel terrible. You want to
live healthy and do what you're used to doing. Hey, it's Nathan Crane, founder of Plant Powered
Athlete. And I want to thank you for tuning in to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. And as a special
thank you, I want to give you a 10% discount code on our Plant Powered Protein scientifically formulated,
(26:20):
super clean, organic, high quality plant powered protein designed with health and performance and
longevity in mind with three super high quality adaptogens that have been shown to help improve
energy, increase focus, endurance, speed up recovery and help your body thrive. So the 10% discount
(26:40):
code, you can use the word podcast at checkout and you can get Plant Powered Protein at our website
at PlantPoweredAthlete.com. Thanks again for tuning in. Same with athletes. You know, there's
more and more, whether it's professional, college, high school, that are much more in tune with what
(27:02):
they're eating. And they probably have nutritionists on the team, you know, guiding them to eat better.
And like you said, we're learning more with the internet or, okay, you can get a lot of information
telling you both ways when you go to the internet, but you're reading a lot. So I think we've
understood that diet plays a huge, has a huge impact on our health and wellbeing and longevity,
(27:26):
recovery time, all of those things. Yeah, you know, and sometimes it's about role modeling
and behavior, you know, when enough people are showing. I like the generational arc idea,
which is, you know, cross generation. So baby boomer can learn from a Gen Z, you know, they can
find out what works because maybe we didn't have the context for thinking about that. You know,
(27:49):
sort of curious on the, you know, look, I think at the end of the day, one of the things that we
learn about behavioral change is whatever you learn the first time, it's hard to learn as fast
the second time, even I'm sure when you're playing football, you know, it's like you have to learn a
play, but you know, if you want to get better, we sometimes have to unlearn. But if there's a gateway,
(28:10):
like a cheese, like you guys have, have you for fun, like, so you're at a show or anything like
that, you have people trying and comparing and seeing if they can pick out what's a regular cheese
versus a plant based cheese. I wouldn't say that we've had a side by side comparison. What I would
say is when people eat it, they're like, wow, I can't tell the difference. Right. They say that,
(28:35):
but we haven't necessarily, you know, done a side by side comparison. Look, I don't, when you're
eating it's alone, you can't tell the difference. I think again, as human beings, if I put two
cheeses, sometimes, you know, there are slight differences. We do a pizza, we do raviolis and
(28:57):
people just say, I can't tell the difference. This is amazing. Wow. I can't tell the difference. And
we've even had for our cream cheese, for instance, some people like, I like this better than cream
cheese. So because there is a little slight difference, but cream cheese is a little specific
because some people like that, you know, that acidic flavor on the cream cheese. I'm like a
(29:17):
little different, but some people, I've had tons of people tell me, wow, I like this better than
real cream cheese. I was like, okay, cool. That is good. What else do you see on the horizon? What
are the other categories? Now, of course, we've talked about the plant based meats, which, you
know, that we use language is sort of funny to, I guess, associate, you know, with what it might be
(29:39):
like. And then you're not really making what would be defined as cheese, but it is a cheese
substitute. What other areas do you see, you know, development in as your guys are looking at this?
For us or for the industry in general? Let's say both. Okay. Well, I mean, look, the industry in
general, I think you're looking to replace almost all types of food or give an option, not replace,
(30:03):
that was a wrong word. You're trying to give an option. So like, you know, plant based milks,
huge. Oh, yeah. Go to, and I am lactose intolerant, but I'm the second level. So like I could eat
cheese and yogurt, but I can't drink liquid milk or cream or I use plant based milk. But you know,
(30:25):
whether it's Starbucks or whether it's the mom and pop local coffee shop, there are a lot of them now
have and it's, you know, the oat milk or, or soy milk or whatever. And I just read yesterday,
Starbucks is dropping the surcharge on the plant based milks at their stores, which means like it,
because it's becoming mainstream. So, and then as us as a company, like I said, we're not just a
(30:49):
plant based cheese company, we're plant based food. So we're doing the ravioli, where we use our plant
based cheese and meats inside. We're developed a plant based burrito, like a high protein plant
based burrito. There's a lot of foods and a lot of things that you can, you know, replace the cheese
or the meat in and, you know, have a plant based product. So, you know, you see a lot of, you're
(31:13):
seeing more and more plant based pizzas out there, right? Which get better and better, the pre-made,
you know, in the store, stuff like that. So yeah, I think, I think look across a lot of different
foods, it's almost like any food you can think of. There's going to be an option for a plant based.
I still feel that, look, we're probably, pick a number, but five, six years away from really
(31:38):
exploding, but like every year it exponentially continues to grow. And that's, that's a generational
thing. Like I said, I think as the younger, the Gen Z's get older, they're eating more and more,
you know, it's growing and it's, I think it's a testament to the people that are making the
products that they're getting better and better. And there's still some bad ones out there. Don't
get me wrong. I even go to trade shows sometime and I'm eating something like, I don't think you
(32:02):
were ready for the show yet, but hey, okay. You know, but then again, there's a lot that you go,
wow, this was an amazing, you know, I've tasted hot dogs that I can't believe it's not a real hot
dog or it's not a meat based hot dog or lots of different foods. Lots of different foods.
I was in a Providence, Rhode Island a couple of weeks ago and I ate a restaurant called Plant City
(32:23):
and we had three restaurants. And so we ate at the burger place and I had a, a pastrami sandwich.
Like I was, you know, from New York city with sour cream, sauerkraut. And I swear to you, I could
not, I was like, I haven't had one in 30 years, cause I haven't eaten one in 30 years.
I haven't, if it was not, if this was like a regular restaurant and he told me it was a vegan
(32:48):
product, I would have said, no, you guys are kidding me. They use seitan, marinated seitan,
that same red color was sliced thin. It was, I was literally like, if it's like that, you,
you can't even imagine that would matter. Right. Right. Incredible. Yeah. And I think that's the
point. Look, things are getting closer and closer to what we're used to. And then like, you know,
(33:14):
the Gen Z and younger people, if this is what they're eating, this is going to be what they're
used to. Right. That's going to become the, the standard of what you're used to. I see that even,
you know, in restaurants and a lot more restaurants are more open and engaging because
it used to be one person out of the four at the table when it wanted a plant-based option.
(33:36):
Then it's become two and is slowly flipping to three. And now it's the, the, the, the person
that's not eating plant-based is, is more and more of that. I don't want to say use the word
of a minority of the table, but like, you know, it's flipping a little bit. So I still think we're
six, 10 years away from it reading, but it's, it's on the way. It's definitely on the way.
(33:58):
Yeah. I agree with you. I think it was pretty remarkable. Not a lot of listeners here would
know 11 Madison, which is excellent star restaurant was three star before the pandemic and then
closed. It opened up as a vegan restaurant and got three stars again. I think the point that David,
who's the chef who proved that you can work with plants, whatever, to whatever level you want them
(34:23):
to go to, it's not just the only way you can get there is with one of the four kinds of meats,
you know, it's a chicken or Turkey or pork or beef and neck. And so I think it was very exciting,
even if you never wanted to eat it, probably couldn't most couldn't afford to eat there,
but it shows the versatility, the power of the flavor profiles, um, as well as sort of the
(34:45):
creativity that one could bring to cooking with plants. Yeah. And like you said, uh, it's quite
expensive to eat there and you can't get in. So obviously there's something, uh, that is
taking hold there because, uh, when it's, you know, the prices that, uh, look, all restaurants
are expensive, but it's very expensive that met there and you can't even get a reservation
(35:08):
or, or you have to wait two weeks or whatever it is, you know, so yeah, no, it is. It's like
$350 a person. If you wanted to go have a meal, but it is one of those experiences that, you know,
you'd be remembering for a long time, especially about to that, you know, you can go in with an
open mind and say, this is actually just as good as anything else I would have ever eaten. Right.
(35:30):
Right. Right. And that's the key, right? Over time. Uh, you know, when we think about plants,
um, you know, the other one I'm sort of curious if you guys are looking into a lot is that,
so the mushroom is one of the most powerful, you know, um, it's not a plant, of course,
it's a fungi, but it's in plant category. It's mycelium though, as both, you know,
(35:54):
sort of a protein source, as well as a very meat like structure to it create a lot of really good
mouth feel. Have you guys been using or thinking about mycelium? Yeah, we, we actually were even
using a much type product in our cream cheese and then they stopped making it, but, um, we're
definitely, uh, and that's some things you go through with plant-based too, because, you know,
(36:19):
things are very expensive early, uh, until you can get to scale and make things and, or the market
demands or wanting that volume. But I'm also working with it, like on our plant-based burrito,
using mushroom based meat. Um, cause now you can get a shred or a, or a ground meat using a mushroom
(36:40):
that again, if you didn't know, and you didn't say to someone, they wouldn't even be able to
tell the difference. Yeah. It has that sort of umami, unctuous taste that meat has. Well,
I haven't had meat in a long time, but I do know that, uh, some of these are like, yeah, cooked
properly, but that's like anything. Yeah. It really is quite remarkable. You're like, oh, I think I'll
(37:02):
have this again. Yeah. And you add flavor to it, right? Or add spices or things like that. So you're
not even necessarily eating, well, at least when I've done these things, like you're not eating the
straight, you know, mushroom, you're, you're, you're, you're seasoning it and you can't tell
the difference. And so that's the point you're looking for the flavor and you're looking for
the texture. And it definitely gives you the texture of meat. So yeah, like a jackfruit, right?
(37:25):
And you can make a pulled pork simulation out of a jackfruit, which is a plant and you serve it. If
you have enough barbecue sauce on there, no one would know exactly. Exactly. It's what you do like
that. So, you know, one of the things that we keep thinking about is sort of, you know, when we
intersect, you know, nutrition and activity, um, I'm in the ultra endurance space as a runner,
(37:53):
you know, Nathan founder of plant power, athlete is a CrossFit guy is vegan, you know,
and then you're in the gym a lot. Do you think that there's a big difference in, in the activities
the kinds of foods we should be taking in? Or do you think it's really, um, you know, understanding
these three macros of protein and fat and carbohydrates and trying to think that way?
(38:18):
How do you guys think about that? That's an interesting, that's an interesting question.
Well, I think, yeah, it's probably getting the sources of that protein, carbs, fats, um,
and then how they break down in your body, how your body absorbs them,
um, eliminates them, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas, you know, the, the, the plant based sources,
(38:41):
you have less inflammation in your body. So you can recover faster. Yeah.
But yeah, I still think you still have to have, and that is the argument with athletes, you know,
you have to make sure you're getting your protein, you're getting the, the fats, the carbs and that
sort of thing. But I think the point is you can get them from a plant based source, like you can
(39:01):
like you can any other source. That's my, no, I think that's right. I think the interesting thing
is that the more active we are, the more food we can tolerate, you know, because it has a purpose,
right? And it's when we're not active that too much food is problematic, you know, uh, but you
know, cause like, I don't know, way much more than 150 pounds. Uh, and so sometimes, you know, some
(39:27):
people are like, you're going to eat all that food. I'm like, you know, if you're running seven to 10
miles a day, you can't do that without food. So, yeah. And look, there's more and more professional
and people look towards, um, other examples and you're seeing more and more athletes, professional
athletes across whatever sport could be endurance running to professional football, the NBA, uh,
(39:52):
that are eating plant-based and they have a better recovery and then their teammates see them or they
talk about it. I mean, you know, Tom Brady was talking about being, uh, basically played till
he was in his forties, you know, and you know, how much of that could have also contributed to his
diet. Obviously he says his diet had a huge impact. Um, so, and he's not alone. There's just a lot
(40:16):
that maybe not as famous as Tom Brady, but there's a lot of athletes that, um, are moving more and
more and more that way. Yeah. I think it's interesting point, which is that, you know,
so we use words that some people sort of don't really fully understand the implication. So this
word inflammation, right? So some inflammation is good, right? You know, the body's signaling
(40:37):
and then there's other inflammation where we're actually wearing ourselves out for no good purpose.
I mean, you know, no, to your similar, Doug, in that, you know, you're not trying to judge anyone
alcohol is inflammation, right? That people can have a beer and a wine. They can drink whatever
they want, but you have to know that it's doing something to you. Right. It's the same when you
have a ultra processed food. It is, we have to work so hard within our system to do something with
(41:04):
it. Now, if we take stuff, that's a little bit closer to either what grew out of the ground
or has less chemicals in it. Then I do think if you're an athlete and you're pushing yourself,
you're not creating more inflammation than the athletic endeavor creates to begin with.
Right. Right. Yeah. I agree. 100%.
So, you know, I have to find, uh, and you go to the gym five to six days a week. I think one of the,
(41:30):
uh, sort of like this, we'll call old wives tales that I would sort of suggest is that
some people think that too much activity is bad. Um, I find actually I get less sore,
the more activity I do. And so, but that's because, you know, if you sleep enough, you eat right,
and you do the activity in a, you know, in the correct form and don't overdo something,
(41:52):
you know, it isn't our system can handle it. It knows when it can't.
Yeah. And look, I mean, even though I go five to six days a week, yeah, when I was 18,
I'd sit in the gym for an hour and a half, two hours. I'm in the gym for 20 to 45 minutes.
I'm in, I'm out now that, that doesn't count cardio. If I'm going to do any cardio,
which they say you should do 20 minutes to 30, whatever. But yeah, I, I just go,
(42:16):
I get my workout. I go in, I'm out 20, 40 minutes. Um, same thing. I go when I can throughout the day.
It's not like I go every day at seven PM or seven AM. I kind of, it's, I find it, but I,
what I do notice is if I don't go, and it could be psychological too, but I just, I don't feel as good
that if I'm not in the gym, uh, you know, that 20 minutes to 45 minutes, I just, I,
(42:41):
I can skip a day now and then, like, cause that's even me in business when I'm traveling.
I can't hit it five, six days a week, every single week, you know, of the year. And we do need a
break too. If I knew, I know there are times, you know, to take that week off or 10 days off is good
for the body as well. Um, but definitely you can feel it. I feel much better, uh, going to the gym
(43:03):
and exercising versus not, or you don't even have to go to the gym, you know, walking outside,
ride a bike, you know, whatever it's, it doesn't have to be, that's just for me. That's what works
for me. Yeah. No, I think it works. I think the human system is made to move. Yeah. It wasn't made
to be stationary. No, there's nothing in it that would design. It's all designed for movement.
Um, it's designed to take the word we've created a negative association with is the word stress.
(43:28):
Stress actually is where growth happens, both physically and mentally, intellectually, all of
that, even if you thought about your product design, you know, you guys come up with good
ideas because you create some strain, right? Like it was like, Oh, that stress created some creativity.
And so we're actually very good at that. Um, it's when we don't use it, when we try and kick it into
(43:49):
gear again for a little while, it's like, Oh, I got to move. So more seems to be better. Um,
do you guys, so just a couple more questions and we'll let you get back to the show. Uh,
do you think internationally how we compare and what we're doing in the U S favorably,
unfavorably to the world and how food is developing?
(44:11):
Well, well, that's a good question too. I mean, look, I look favorably upon the U S however,
I would also say there are other regions of the world that are probably even more advanced than
us on plant-based. I can't say Europe in general, but like there are countries and areas within
(44:33):
Europe as well as the food, just the food chain in general. I'm not even speaking plant-based
in general, like there are much more, uh, laws and regulations about what you should not be doing
with the food supply in Europe or in Asia, uh, than there are in the United States. I mean,
(44:54):
I was just, and now I can't even remember it. I was looking, um, and I just started following
them on Instagram, but they just did a, an event at Kellogg's in Michigan last week or two and
compared the ingredient statement of fruit loops in Europe and fruit in the U S and the amount of
sugar in the U S foods as which, you know, it's brings the cost out and then the, uh, chemical
(45:18):
coloring here versus natural coloring of Europe. Yeah. I think we still have a lot of work to do
in the United States. Now we are, you know, obviously there is cost and that's one reason
it's a lot cheaper to process the food, to add sugars, add high fructose corn syrup, all these
things, but like, I'm not going to say that we're, we're terrible in U S we do, we a lot of good
(45:42):
things in the U S too. And even when I have, and I work a lot in Europe and we source ingredients
in Europe and things like that. And when Europeans come here, they're just amazed at like the, uh,
uh, what they would call the basis of the food, you know, that's here. We have really good, the
base, the base of it, uh, on certain things on the natural, like on the vegetables or on the
(46:06):
even, you know, other things. So, yeah, yeah. I know. I, I think that it's interesting the way
that I always think that we can sort of mimic a little bit more of European way of eating is our
community supported agriculture where local farming is supporting and supplying local communities.
Yeah. That's a much more sort of European style of food distribution. Yeah. I think farming in
(46:32):
general, I mean, I'm here with someone from France this week and you know, they're already talking
about supply going down 1% over each per year of the next few, just based upon younger people
don't want to farm. Like it's a lot of work, uh, for not a lot of money and you're working
really hard. And, you know, I think farming is something that is a topic that, you know,
(46:55):
probably needs a little bit more looking. And even in the U S it's becoming more and more the
corporate farms or larger farms, no matter whether it's for meats or vegetables or whatever it is,
it's, you know, larger and larger corporation farms, almost the family farms kind of going
away from when I was a kid. Oh yeah. I think that the data says that in 1890, 90 plus percent of
(47:16):
Americans were farmers and today 2% of Americans are farmers. Yeah. So that's, as a shift in 150
years that you would sort of almost never imagined could have happened, but yeah, we've figured out
some good in some bad ways, how to right a lot and harvest a lot with not a lot of people. Right.
So the last question for you, Doug is, you know, if someone's listening to the podcast and wants to
(47:41):
endeavor, um, a little bit more into plant-based, you know, maybe they are plant-based, not fully,
or they're not, but what suggestions do you have for people as they think about a plant-based journey?
Well, I think you just have to, as we said, it's hard to change a habit. I think you, you just got
to dive in. You got to, you know, go to Whole Foods first. I mean, look like I'm not a Whole
(48:06):
Food. We're not even selling it to Whole Foods. I'm just saying like that or a Trader Joe's or,
you know, just to see the options that are out there and try certain things. And I think you'll
find, um, and you would be surprised if you're not plant-based, you'll be surprised at, you know,
the quality and how things are much better today. Um, and if you are plant-based, you know, there's
(48:32):
still new products coming out all the time that you, you know, it's worth the, worth giving a try,
but it's, it's more of a mental, you just have to make that decision and, you know, get over the
stigma of, oh, plant-based, it's not as good. There's not as much protein or, oh, vegetarians
are, you know, crazy about the way they think about foods. And, you know, uh, like I think that is
(48:55):
changing and we are seeing, you know, the marketing to help that if you call something a vegan, uh,
chili, you know, there's a small, call it plant-based chili a week, month later, it's like
flying off the shelf. So I also seeing the dynamics changing as we speak, uh, just about even the
(49:17):
presentation of the foods. Yeah. And so if we, we can go to Amazon and look for Never Better Foods,
correct? Yes. Yep. Yep. We have, uh, some of, not all of our items, but some of our items are there,
like our mozzarella, our cheddar, we're going to have our cream cheese soon. Um, yeah. And we will
eventually start even going into some, like more of the local groceries, uh, independence, uh,
(49:41):
uh, from a purely business standpoint, it costs a lot of money to be in Whole Foods and,
and Albertsons and these guys be due to the buying the shelf space, doing the marketing
monies, like all of these things. So look, it is our plan to eventually be there. And a lot of
people say, Hey, why aren't you in Whole Foods? Why aren't you in Whole Foods? And, uh, you know,
eventually we will, but it's a plan. It's a journey. And, you know, even for colleges,
(50:04):
we'll start selling in their commissaries, you know, because they're used to eating our foods
now in the dining hall, but your freshmen and sophomores eating in the dining hall, the juniors
and seniors eat at home, like in their apartment. So we're starting to offer our products for sale
in consumer size packs like that way as well. But for the person watching this, yeah. Amazon for sure.
(50:25):
Yeah. So that's great. Everyone, um, you know, become a fan of never better foods, Doug,
we appreciate what you and the team are working towards. It's good for all of us, uh, to increase
plant-based eating, you know, better energy, you know, sort of better living, health and wellness,
the forefront of what we want to think about and, uh, keep going. We're, uh, we're right behind you.
Yeah. And thank you, Joe. I mean, with you and the, uh, plant powered athlete and things,
(50:49):
I've started to follow that and you guys are doing a great job getting the message out there and,
you know, keep it, keep it up. All right. Thanks very much. All right. Thanks, Joe.
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