Dr. Matthew Nagra | The Key to Healthy Eating According to Dr. Matthew Nagra | PPAP35 - Plant Powered Athlete Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Plant-Powered Athlete Podcast. I'm your host Robert Cheek and with me is a wonderful guest today, Dr. Matthew Nagra, who is a naturopathic doctor, a plant-powered athlete, can break it down on the dance floor as well.

(00:15):
He's also very popular in debates with various people from different communities within the nutrition world. Dr. Matthew Nagra, good to have you here.
Good to be here. Yeah, it's funny, the whole dance floor thing just brings me back to the cruise we were on. I'm pretty sure you were the king of the dance floor there, not so much me.

(00:40):
Well, you know, I'll claim that title. I've certainly been known to drop it like it's lukewarm many times while sailing the beautiful Caribbean Sea.
And I remember when I saw you in line the first year that I saw you on the cruise, I'm like, hey, you're Dr. Nagra with like 14,000 Instagram followers, right?

(01:01):
And you're like, yeah. And now you're like at 80,000 or something. So times have changed. Your audience has, I can't do the math, but at least quintupled there, I believe.
And so as we kick this off, Dr. Nagra, let's not make any assumptions here. What is a naturopathic doctor?
Yeah, so I get that question a lot. And, you know, it's a common topic.

(01:26):
One thing I will clarify is that what is within, say, a naturopathic scope or what within the practice of a naturopathic doctor varies widely, depending on where you are.
So when I talk about it, I'm speaking specifically to BC, Canada, where I practice. And here we are primary care providers.
We see and treat a lot of the common things, say, a family doctor might. And I do have the ability to prescribe medications as well. And I do do that.

(01:52):
But I also have a large focus on the lifestyle aspects, nutrition and so on.
And so that's sort of how I look at it is a form or an extension of lifestyle medicine, essentially.
Now, there are other practices within the scope. There are herbal supplementation and things like that.
And I would say as far as the evidence goes for a lot of those things, there's evidence for some here and there.

(02:16):
There isn't great evidence for others. And that's sort of where the differences between different practitioners may come in.
But for myself, definitely a lifestyle medicine approach.
So I see you as someone that's like a go to person, a lot of big names in our industry, Simon Hill, Dr.
Will Bulsiewicz. I mean, you name it, a lot of people come to you for nutrition advice and you're really an expert in this area.

(02:42):
You also like to debate a lot of people will talk about that.
I want to talk about the efficacy of debating and who some of your dream debate opponents are.
I remember we were at the gym together, the most popular gym in the world.
And you're like, wouldn't that be weird if like Andrew Huberman were here and he walked by within 10 seconds?

(03:03):
That was so crazy. And you mentioned like, oh, I'd love to debate that guy.
So we'll get into that for in a moment. But because you're this guy that so many people come to, those with millions of followers,
what would you say that most of us get wrong when it comes to nutrition, a general population or the general?

(03:23):
I don't want to use terms like keyboard warrior, but just the general population, what are we getting wrong?
I think I mean, there's a few things I could point to, but one that I think applies to pretty much every diet camp.
You could take keto, carnivore, vegan plant based, you know, name it.

(03:45):
I think every camp sort of has a very vocal proportion, in some cases, maybe a majority,
some cases a minority who believe that there is a one diet to rule them all essentially,
that when it comes to health, one diet stands above everything else and it is quote unquote the optimal.
I take more of an approach based on the available evidence that there are certain aspects of diets that are just like foundations,

(04:10):
things that are are pretty healthy across populations, across groups.
And these are things like fruits, veggies, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds.
And yeah, those are plant based foods. And if you are having animal foods,
there are certain things like fish or even like fermented dairy products that could fit in there.
But you could do that as a Mediterranean diet, a dash diet, a portfolio diet.

(04:33):
It could be a whole foods plant based or vegan diet.
And all of those can be very healthy and I would say pretty similarly healthy.
So I would push back on this idea that there is necessarily one dietary pattern that is clearly better than everything else,
whereas in reality there is there's sort of a foundation of a healthy diet that we can fill in with different things here and there.

(04:55):
And do you think that is due to dogmatism or emotion or confirmation bias?
Like, what's the biggest thing that gets in the way of this?
I'm I'm following this agenda and this belief system and this worldview and this value system.
And I'm just not going to budge regardless of the data that's presented to me.

(05:17):
Is that just a dogmatic approach that's too emotional for a lot of people to wrap their heads around?
I absolutely think so. I think that's a big part of it.
And I also think that personal experience plays into it a lot.
So, you know, if somebody had some kind of a health issue, let's say they had Crohn's disease,
they're bleeding in their stool on a regular basis and they adopted a specific dietary pattern and that went into remission,

(05:41):
whether it's due to the diet or it's coincidence, who knows.
But provided that that remission occurred shortly after changing the diet,
they might believe that this is the one diet that is the healthiest and they'll apply it to other people.
And and that I think it's really hard to push back on that sort of experience that somebody has to be like,

(06:03):
well, that I'm super happy that you found this way that works for you.
But we can't necessarily be prescribing this to everybody because we don't know for certain.
Is it this aspect of the diet that was good for you? Is it that aspect?
Was it maybe just coincidence and you were going to go into remission anyway?
We don't always know in those anecdotal cases.

(06:24):
And so, yeah, I think the sort of emotional aspect, in some cases, ideological aspects, they certainly play in quite a bit.
Yeah, I took some notes there that this expression I just wrote down, emotional proximity or recency bias or just inherent belief system that,

(06:45):
regardless of science, data, meta-analysis or whatever, this is what I experience within my own body, within my own eyes.
I believe it to be true. I don't really care what you think because I live this.
And what percentage of that is, I mean, is that a small percentage or is this recency bias or confirmation bias more of a guiding principle for our actions and belief systems

(07:12):
with how we look at overall nutrition and wellness and how our choices play into that outcome?
Yeah, I mean, I'd say you're good at this interviewing thing because that's a great question.
And I honestly don't have a solid answer. Like, I don't know what proportion of it is driven by that.
It's probably different for each individual.
So it's really hard to say. But I would I would suggest that it's very likely a portion.

(07:36):
You know, how much? I don't know.
Sounds like we need to study. Yeah, there you go.
So, Dr. Niagara, what positions on nutrition or fitness have you changed your mind about given new information?
Yeah, there's a number. The one that sticks out and this is the one that I think I butt heads with people the most over nowadays are actually oils.

(07:59):
So a lot of people in the plant based camp are very much against including oils in the diet.
And I used to buy into a lot of that. I was convinced by some of the arguments I heard early on.
But once I learned more about interpreting research and sort of delved into that area of research a bit more, I changed my view.
And so now I think actually liquid oils, so things like olive or even the seed oils like canola and sunflower, safflower, they can all be quite healthy.

(08:27):
Now, what's interesting is olive oil is one that, yes, you know, people in the sort of hardcore anti-oil camp are still against.
But that's one that is accepted by a lot of dietary pattern or dietary groups as being a pretty healthy option.
But those vegetable oils, the seed oils, like, again, canola, sunflower, etc., they are just demonized almost across the board in every diet camp, despite the evidence actually being quite positive for them.

(08:55):
So why is that? So I know from my background, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and prevent and reverse heart disease was really big on the no oil thing.
I think for a while Dr. T. Colin Campbell, although I don't think that's something that he adheres to, I've heard him address that.
I don't think he follows that approach much anymore.

(09:15):
I mean, although he will say lower the oil because your fat is 4000 calories per pound, you really need that.
But now we see it across, I mean, is this like a Jordan Peterson?
I mean, there's very prominent, I almost hesitate to say intellectual figures to attach those definitions to some of these individuals, but maybe they are.

(09:40):
It seems more mainstream, this abstinence from oil.
So where does that come from rather than just that niche Dr. Esselstyn and his 24 patients or whatever?
Why is it taking the world by storm?
Yeah, so there's actually, yes, it bleeds into carnivore and keto and all these camps, but there's actually one camp that is just anti vegetable oils.

(10:07):
And I actually debated Tucker Goodrich, who's one of the people probably leading up that whole movement on Simon Hill's podcast.
So there's for anyone who's interested and wants to sit through a debate that's longer than some of the Lord of the Rings movies.
Go ahead, you can listen to that, but I think it was three and a half hours. We had to take bathroom breaks and everything.

(10:28):
But so that was a topic I've delved into quite a bit.
And I think a big part of it, again, it's so hard to pin down exactly what proportion is driven by one type of belief or another.
But a lot of it comes down to preferring sort of animal sources of fats. So to justify consumption of, say, saturated fats from things like meat or butter,

(10:57):
you know, creams, things like that, you have to possibly sort of demonize what the alternative is.
And oftentimes the alternatives are these vegetable oils or products made from these vegetable oils.
Another way that people go about sort of demonizing them is that in some ways they believe that things like butter or meats or these other saturated fat rich foods are natural.

(11:24):
Like you kill an animal and their flesh contains saturated fat or a significant portion of saturated fat, unless they're like ultra lean options.
Whereas things like these oils are made in factories and that becomes this sort of processed food and there's this like phobia of processed foods, so to speak.
And so that is one way that they're also demonized. So it might be as a means to sort of justify the higher animal fat consumption.

(11:51):
Again, just drawing from just my experiences in the in the area and having these debates and whatnot.
But it's hard to pin down exactly where it comes from for every single diet camp.
Yeah, and it's, you know, it got me thinking, actually, I was writing down the word natural before you even said it.
And also the word processed, it being this buzzword that really look at it objectively.

(12:15):
So much of what we do is not natural. And I mean, I have three different ring lights right now on me.
If I raise my head up, you'll see them reflect on my glasses. Right.
I have a heater on my wall. It's not being heated by the sun out here in Colorado.
All this unnatural stuff all around me. But from my from the device we're working on right now to our phones, everything else.

(12:40):
But we we have a preference toward the things that we want to pick and choose that this is bad because it's not natural.
But all these other modern conveniences like nothing wrong with automobiles and everything else,
because we benefit from them or falls into our belief system or we've just never challenged that idea.

(13:01):
So how do you deal with that juxtaposition?
You know, there's that there's that meme that's that, you know, it's like the primal or carnivore person and says,
if you want to live like that, you know, log out of Instagram and go back in the cave.
So how do we overcome the word you used, phobia of processed or a relationship to what is natural or ancestral or

(13:26):
honoring what we think is part of our heritage or culture, if that's meaningful to us?
How do we how do we combat that, I guess, even from your perspective as someone who is engaged in debates,
which I've only done one in my entire life, so I don't know that background of what points you give or counter perspectives.

(13:47):
How do you deal with that?
Yeah, so and this this will only work for people who are concerned with being consistent in their position.
So if you're if you're having discussion with someone whose blinders are completely up,
they're incredibly entrenched in a certain ideology, you're probably not going to necessarily get through to them.
But for those who are maybe you're having a good faith discussion with somebody and they're a little more open to what you have to say.

(14:14):
One thing that I would bring up is a comparison to something that they consume that is processed.
We can exclude these things like computers and cars or whatever.
Just talk about food. A lot of people who are against oils because it's fats extracted from a food and is done in a factory.
They tend to consume protein powders, which are proteins extracted from foods made in a factory, typically.

(14:35):
And so I might bring up a comparison of, well, why is that OK as a processed culinary ingredient, but the oil aren't?
And they would have to justify that somehow in order to remain consistent.
And I don't I least off the top of my head, I can't think of any really solid justifications for that.
But the second thing, and I think this can be used as a thought experiment in so many cases when somebody is demonizing for food

(15:00):
for a reason other than actually looking at the research on that food.
So it's process is unnatural. Those aren't really necessarily diving into the research on the food.
And I did this in my debate with Anthony Chafee, who is one of the sort of carnivore proponents, one of the biggest names in that area, actually.
I just bring up, OK, let's say there are two diets or two foods in this case, and they're talking about oils.

(15:22):
There's food A and food B. Now, food A is, quote unquote, unnatural, but it leads to lower risks of heart disease, longer life, healthier life.
Now, food B is natural, naturally drive, but it leads to a shorter life, higher risk of cardiovascular disease, et cetera.
Which do you choose? Right. Take away the labels.

(15:43):
Take away any other knowledge other than one is unnatural, but is healthier.
One is natural, but unhealthy.
And let's say we know that there's only one choice.
It's obviously the unnatural one that is healthier.
So that brings us back to the actual data.
Like, OK, you don't actually if you answer, you'll take the healthier product.
You don't actually care as much about whether it's natural or not.

(16:05):
You care more about is it healthy?
So let's dive into the research.
And that's where someone with expertise in the nutrition field could actually dive into discussing the research on the topic.
But again, they need to be honest enough to answer that way, because I've actually had people respond to me like, no, I'd still take the natural product,
even though in this hypothetical, you would die earlier and probably have a heart attack.

(16:29):
Like, it's an absurd position to take, but you're just never going to convince that person.
Right. It reminds me of.
If it's just natural to be out in daylight without shelter near the equator, yeah, your skin would just burn.
A lot of us, or at least some of us who have migrated and are skin like me, I would just burn up.
I'd get skin cancer. I'd get to a certain degree burns if I didn't have this shelter.

(16:53):
But it's natural, right? It's natural to be out there and find a tree.
That's my fault. And do you think that is a preference toward a desired outcome where someone chooses, OK.
I'm going to choose the natural one or I'm going to choose the unnatural one because it has a more desirable outcome.

(17:14):
Is there some sort of preference that makes that their their bias, like makes that their choice?
Even if I were to say in that scenario, yeah, I've always been kind of this natural, you know, I mean, I use natural deodorant, natural toothpaste.
I've been plant based for 30 years. I used to wear hemp jewelry back in the 90s.
I'm like that's just the approach that I'm going to take.

(17:36):
I don't want to cover myself with sunscreen and all that.
It's I don't like it. I'm going to take that risk.
And then maybe someone else says, well, the data suggests that you're maybe better off with this special sunscreen that's going to cover you or that you have to take unnatural
precautions such as getting out from, you know, exercise or sorry, out from outdoors and exposure to sunlight and protect yourself.

(18:00):
Is it just a really personal preference that comes into play for that?
Well, yeah, I think it is preference. I think that's what drives a lot of it.
Like everybody prefers certain things, you know, like when it comes to food, because they enjoy the food or, you know, there's a bunch of convenience in certain cases.
But I think they convince themselves that because what they like or what is natural is ultimately the healthier option that they just equate the two natural equals healthier.

(18:31):
That's why bringing up the hypothetical of, OK, let's say we had something that's unnatural, but healthier than the thing that is natural.
What would you choose? And if they say they would pick the healthier, unnatural option, that just brings it back to again, OK, so you actually care about the end result.
That is what matters. So let's discuss what the research says about what you ultimately care about.

(18:54):
Will you live a healthier, longer life? And it's difficult to do difficult to get answers out of people sometimes because there is really only one reasonable answer there.
But once you get that answer, then you're you're sort of targeted on the actual health outcome data.
It's kind of like or at least this is what it reminds me of. It's kind of like the desired end result for better sleep.

(19:21):
A lot of people say put your screens away. But there's a strong preference to I've got to go check my Instagram comments or Facebook, especially if I made something provocative or controversial.
And you're in the middle of a debate and you want to see what people in another time zone are saying or you justify that.
Well, it just helps me sleep at night because it makes me tired by reading through the stuff, even if evidence suggests otherwise that you're better off without the screens.

(19:47):
But it's my strong preference overrides that there's this meme I sent to my wife because she's guilty of it, as I've been to where it's a little cartoon character lying in bed holding their phone.
And then it hits them in the face a few moments later because we're just addicted to this device, even when we're at our most tired moments, when we're literally drifting off to sleep and we get nailed in the forehead with our phone.

(20:14):
That's happened to me as well. So that's what that preference reminds me of, where it has the ability to override what the data suggests.
And how often would you say that plays a role in people's nutritional decisions?
You know, I just like alcohol or I just need this piece of chocolate or I just need it.

(20:40):
Just that's how my body responds. I don't care what the science says. This is my preference.
I wouldn't want to live in a world where I couldn't do this. Really, how common is that?
I think it's super common with food in particular. I mean, I see it all the time in my comments sections as well.
But what's interesting is let's draw a parallel to smoking. People who smoke, for the most part, there might be exceptions, do not believe it's good for you.

(21:08):
Most people who smoke do so despite knowing it's not good for you. So, you know, that's OK.
I think if you know the risks that you're accruing by doing a certain behavior, then that's on you.
When it comes to food, though, it's not just that they're doing something they know to be harmful.
They convince themselves that it's actually good for them.

(21:29):
And that's where there's like that extra layer that you have to peel back and or somehow get through in order to have that conversation.
And like like I said, you're not going to convince everybody.
And I kind of know who I will and will not convince. Like the people I debate, I'm never going to or almost never going to convince most of them.
But it's the people who watch that can be convinced or swayed by who provides the more compelling arguments.

(21:54):
And so that's I'm trying to reach those people who might be on the fence or or who might may have previously been convinced by the misinformation.
And then I can kind of explain why it is misinformation.
Yeah, I think you and I talked about that. I don't know if that was in Vancouver or Seattle or Vancouver.
I remember. Yeah. Where just the the efficacy of.

(22:19):
Are you going to persuade someone in a debate?
I doubt that it happens one on one. I think I mean, I'm saying from my own personal bias, I would it would take a lot to persuade me to start eating animals again,
because I have such a strong bias against it. And I've had that for 30 years and I have my compelling moral and ethical reasons behind that that dictate my behavior and my desires and all of that.

(22:43):
But to your point, man, debates are I don't even follow a lot of these people.
I may not even know their names, people you mentioned, but I do follow Alex O'Connor, Cosmic Skeptic, Earthling Ed, Ed Winters and others more in the vegan world or in the philosophy world, Peter Singer.
And I think to your point, you're really trying to reach people who are listening to the debate and trying to find their position within this, whether it's talking about religion or belief or food science or health or longevity.

(23:16):
You present your case, your counterpoint or counterpart presents their case and maybe the audience picks up something that really resonates with them.
I wrote down a few notes just it reminded me of, again, that that juxtaposing behavior that overrides like where you said, yeah, people know smoking is bad for them.

(23:38):
They do it anyway. There's all kinds of factors.
Nicotine addiction wrapped up into that.
But other times we make choices that we just we just do it anyway or like like caffeine late at night or something like that.
Or or good news about our bad habits or this idea that and correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of people just seem they want to be justified.

(24:06):
They want their actions justified.
Everybody wants justice and fairness in the way they're treated or critiqued or they want their hypocritical behaviors justified by some sort of paper or study or analysis that says, yeah, for some people, that's OK to have a bunch of caffeine right before bed because that's what they want to do.

(24:31):
Give any comments on this idea of of justifying bad habits and how prevalent that is through our own ego or or personal preference that drives the decisions to engage in that behavior anyway, even if we know better.
Hey, it's Nathan Crane, founder of Plant Powered Athlete, and I want to thank you for tuning into the Plant Powered Athlete podcast.

(24:57):
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(25:24):
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Thanks again for tuning in. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think everyone's prone or I shouldn't say everyone.
Most people are prone to that to some degree, myself included.

(25:46):
Like the funny one that made me chuckle a little bit if you saw was the caffeine before bed. Now, I'm not saying right before bed, but, you know, if I'm having a late afternoon workout, sometimes I'll have a little bit of caffeine, a coffee or something right beforehand just to get that extra boost as a pre workout.
And, you know, I'll be maybe not falling asleep super quickly that night.
And, you know, these are things that I sort of justify to myself in the moment like, oh, you know, it's it or we still got a few hours. It'll be fine. And then, you know, you're lying in bed and you just can't doze off.

(26:16):
All of these things happen to most people. And it's just a matter of, you know, when you're faced with contrary evidence for whatever the belief is you're trying to justify, like, do you ultimately engage with that?
Do you consider it, look into it, you know, have discussions with whoever's presenting it? Or do you just like shut that out and say, no, absolutely not.

(26:40):
There's no way that's true or whatever. And it's hard to say, you know, how exactly how prevalent it is or how difficult it is to to break through.
But it's definitely common.
Well, let me ask you this then. How often do you see hypocritical behavior?
Oh, let me I mean, give you some examples, I guess, or some context.

(27:04):
Like there would be people who are hyper nuanced about nutrition, but play but pay no attention to stress or sleep.
They sleep like four hours a night. They're stressed. They anxiety. They're angry.
They're, you know, they're they get mad, you know, in social media and all this kind of stuff. Yet they just pour so much emphasis on they want this pure purity within their diet.

(27:31):
But then you look at the hypocrisy of the the overall health sphere of this individual that's lacking in sleep, it's lacking in in stress and their attitude, their communication with others and all of that.
Or like we even said earlier, that the focus on this primal mentality, but using all the modern electronics and industrial engineering and food engineering as possible, you know, to make whatever fits into their their worldview.

(28:02):
How big of a thing is that just from what you see out there in the world?
I mean, I definitely see what you're describing a fair bit. And I think that's especially for people who are in the nutrition space, at least the ones that I talked to, like a lot of them don't end up sleeping well.
They're really busy. They have their day jobs and then they're doing their online work and whatever.

(28:24):
And so I definitely or, you know, they're working long hours, so they can't exercise regularly like that happens.
But I don't know if if it's necessarily an issue from a standpoint of like viewing what they're sharing.
So to kind of clarify, somebody can believe something and share certain information without actually engaging in it themselves.

(28:46):
Like if I if I were to tell people, hey, smoking is bad for you, but I take up smoking tomorrow, that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect.
It means that, yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm doing something that is bad, but the advice I'm giving is still good.
So I don't know that what somebody says should necessarily be disregarded, not that you're saying that on the basis that they don't necessarily follow what they practice, what they preach.

(29:11):
But I definitely see that very often.
Yeah, you know, it reminds me of Dr. Nagra. It reminds me and I just saw one.
Well, I have to say two days ago, because I've been off social media for a couple of days, but and I probably see it all the time.
But it reminded me of like these these workout videos you see influencers doing.
These are not the workouts they do.

(29:33):
We know what I know. So I know these people.
This is it's for demonstration purposes.
It's for views or for likes. I've done it myself where I do these like, oh, the camera's on.
Let me do perfect form. Let me get that. Keep the elbow in tight, full extension.
We don't. But you're right. That doesn't change the value of that demonstration, even if I don't actually do that.

(29:57):
Like when people tell me to give them a typical day in the life of my nutrition program.
Boy, do I pick the best things that I can pick, you know, oatmeal with berries and walnuts for breakfast.
I haven't had that in months. Right. But that's my ideal.
And it doesn't change the fact that that's a valuable information.
It just means that I'm not perhaps being as authentic in my presentation of that information.

(30:23):
It's like and I'm not throwing anybody under the bus or even bringing them to the bus stop.
But like on this vegan cruise, you'll see Dr. T.
Colin Campbell eating pizza, you know, vegan pizza late at night at midnight.
I have a photo with a half eaten slice of pizza in his hand.
Yet, where does that fit into his daily dozen or into the whole food, you know, plant based, which Dr.

(30:49):
Campbell coined in the I think I want to say the late 70s.
It doesn't, but it doesn't change their message.
What it means is there's variations here.
There is complexity, there's variety and there is this holistic approach to nutrition and fitness and life that that includes the parameters,

(31:09):
you know, and and it's not just this narrow target of what is optimal, as you talked about early on.
So just just an observation there in in this whole holistic approach to trying to find the best plan for all of us.

(31:31):
I want to switch gears for a moment.
It's been a pretty wild, I would say, post pandemic few years in the plant based world.
You can take that as you wish, that that statement.
How do you view the state of the plant based food industry and why?
I mean, I think when it comes to like plant based meat alternatives or just plant based alternatives in general,

(31:59):
there was obviously a huge rise in consumption of those products, say around 2019 or so.
I actually recently looked up some of these stats about maybe six months ago or so.
And then there was a subsequent a bit of a fall. It wasn't a huge fall off.
I know you'll see a lot of carnivore proponents.

(32:19):
They'll pick a specific brand and be like, look, they're taking even though as a whole, the industry is doing relatively OK.
But, you know, I think these diets or dietary patterns or even specific foods,
they tend to go in these cycles of they'll be super popular and then they might fall off a little bit and then they'll come back.

(32:42):
But with plant based foods in general, they've never seemed to completely fall or plant based diets,
I should say, they never seem to completely fall off.
Like if you look at Google trends for things like vegan or plant based.
Yeah, I mean, you'll see it generally rise, maybe fall a little bit rise, fall a little bit.
But the trajectory is generally pretty similar or it's generally moving up.

(33:03):
Whereas when you look at the different iterations of, say, low carb animal based diets, you had paleo,
then you had it completely fell off and then keto took over and that completely fell off and then carnivore.
And then now that's falling off and now it's like animal based or whatever that is.
And so I actually think the state is of the plant based movement as a whole is pretty good, but it is segmented as well.

(33:31):
Like there's different camps within that.
There are obviously the more whole foods, plant based purists.
And then there's another group that's maybe a little more balanced in what they recommend could be included.
And I do find that the whole foods plant based camp is shrinking, at least as far as how much I see of them.
Again, I don't know what sort of data we would look at for that, but seems to be shrinking to a degree.

(33:52):
And people are being more accepted or people are more likely to accept things like some plant based meat alternatives, oils and whatnot to be a part of that sort of all inclusive plant based diet.
So I'm pretty happy with where we're at and how we're growing.
But but I know there will be conflicting views on that.
Yeah, and I think it's worth being transparent about that and not having our personal bias guide our language around that, too.

(34:20):
For example, on the pros and cons of this topic, there's still major New York Times bestselling plant based cookbooks.
You know, Carly Bode, I just had one released a few months ago.
There was another one again, major New York Times bestseller and then another one just two weeks ago.
I tend to follow this is an area that I'm really interested in, which books are doing really well.

(34:43):
Those are still going strong. But I just met with the Happy Cow team, you know, the Happy Cow app.
They're based in Southern California. I was working there on behalf of plant powered athlete at the SoCal VegFest.
And I was talking to them and they told me some very discouraging numbers, for example, 60 percent, 60, 60 percent of all vegan restaurants in Los Angeles have closed just in the last year or so.

(35:08):
Restaurants across the board, vegan restaurants on Happy Cow have just just plummeted with one of the only bright spots, Vietnam, which is the fastest growing at the moment for new vegan restaurants per capita.
It's the most vegan friendly restaurant place as far as new vegan restaurants opening up, sometimes multiple per day throughout the country, which is very encouraging.

(35:33):
But there's no doubt. And I've been to a lot of these animal rights conferences, plant based nutrition, health care conferences from the same events you go to or that you're certainly well familiar with where there seems to be this lingering mood of concern and dissatisfaction that maybe there's a trend here that's in a downward spiral.

(36:00):
And there is this also this increase in enthusiasm for carnivore and other types of lifestyle.
So I think it's it's worth lingering on that for a moment and trying to get to the bottom of it.
And I've had discussions with some of the biggest names, most prominent, longest tenured people in the vegan movement, if you will, trying to figure out why that is.

(36:24):
Do you have any further insights or speculations just from your vantage point of how trends are impacting behavior, which impacts consumer spending, which impacts consumer identity, which impacts label one may put on themselves as plant based or vegan and why there might be this current struggle beyond just economics, but maybe some other optics that that change our perception?

(36:51):
I mean, I think we've kind of touched on the main ones. I think these things tend to occur in waves and the overall trajectory of the plant based movement over the past couple of decades even has been upward overall with slight bumps here and there.
So I'm I don't know that this is going to completely tank as a movement at this point. I just don't see how that's possible.

(37:12):
Of course, when things like the carnivore diet exploded, yeah, there might have been a bit of a shift, especially in those people who were, say, adopting a vegan diet for some miraculous health benefits or something where they'll they'll often jump from diet to diet.
In fact, that's what most people do. Most people who try a diet fall off of it. And for you and me, we know that veganism isn't just a diet.

(37:32):
You know, it's much more than that for us. And that's why we stay with the with this lifestyle or have stuck with this lifestyle for so long for yourself. I think you said like 30 years or something for next month starts my 30th year.
OK, well, there you go. That's about double me. I'm about 14. And I'll get there. I'll get the 30 plus.

(37:55):
But, you know, I don't think it's a huge cause for concern. Also, with restaurants closing down, I mean, that's super sad to hear about how many vegan or vegan friendly places have shut down.
But let's not forget that that that's been an issue with the entire restaurant industry, especially through covid.
Like, it's just struggling overall. I know here in Vancouver, plenty of non-vegan restaurants have struggled or closed or had to make significant changes as well.

(38:21):
Percentage wise, I don't know. I haven't really looked into that. I'd actually be very interested to know if there's a comparison to draw from or say comparing vegan restaurants specifically to the restaurant industry as a whole.
And if it is a higher percentage, I don't know. But, yeah, I don't think there's a really simple answer.
And I think it's a matter of kind of building it back up, not to mention that there's this sort of politicization of diets as well that has really exploded in the last couple of years.

(38:51):
I've noticed and obviously we saw it a lot through election season here, which we're just on the other side of for people watching this whenever you are.
That was just yesterday for the timing. But, yeah, like, you know, you saw a lot of commentary on that from when Elon Musk was on the Joe Rogan podcast and so on.
They're talking about the diet wars, so to speak. And it's just become I wish it wasn't, but it's just become such a political issue.

(39:17):
Yeah, and I think you made a couple of good points there, Dr. Nagra, that for one,
got to find my notes here, for one, you're right, it's universal. It's not just vegan restaurants closing.
I saw a headline on World Vegan Day. I posted on social media just kind of for the fun of it, not to take a shot at those who work in that industry or are impacted by it.

(39:41):
But it was they announced 140 locations of Wendy's closing on World Vegan Day. I just thought it was kind of ironic.
And so many other major restaurant chains throughout North America and probably globally are closing down just because of consumer behavior.
But we are so much more intimately connected and emotionally connected to the vegan ones that that's why they're so high on our radar.

(40:04):
Well, I've used the same calmness to give to others when they kind of freak out about all these vegan restaurants closing.
I'm saying look around, look around your community. It's all restaurants closing and maybe even at a higher percentage of omnivorous restaurants closing compared to vegan restaurants.
I would wager that it has to be higher just based on the numbers, the so many more non-vegan restaurants that exist and the amount that are closing,

(40:33):
where Denny's closed 140 or 150, Wendy's another 140, 150, all sorts of restaurants.
Or there's one out in my home state of Oregon, Sherry's Restaurant Diner.
I think it's like 50, maybe 50 locations shut down overnight, like literally overnight.
They announced it at 8 p.m. and people went to go show up to work the next day and sign on the door.

(40:56):
It's done. And that was a traditional omnivorous restaurant, family diner. And I think it's just a more of a sign of the economic times.
And also, to your point, we are so much further ahead as far as a movement, if you will,
than we were just years ago or decades ago that I think the words that I wrote down is that I think we got a little bit complacent or took it for granted that in places like Vancouver or Toronto or L.A.

(41:24):
or New York or some of these cities, they were just vegan food everywhere and business was good for Beyond Meat and stock levels were high.
And then the realities of a post pandemic or maybe even ongoing pandemic reality are still there with us.

(41:44):
So those are all good. Those are all good points.
I want to maybe continue on with a conversation as maybe one of the first questions I asked you about what we get wrong.
And you had a lot of good things to say about that, especially dogmatism and personal belief, get in the way of real science and all of that, maybe looking up to the wrong role models or getting news from the wrong places.

(42:09):
But what are some other common misconceptions about a plant based diet?
And I think this is timely because I don't know when this is going to air, but sometime around American Thanksgiving or Christmas, probably, where the misconceptions of plant based diet are on full display from our relatives, our friends and loved ones around the dining room table.

(42:33):
How do we address some of those when we're in those difficult conversations with family?
I mean, I think the well, for one, it's educating yourself, obviously, and there's some certain heavy hitter topics, I think, that tend to come up protein being the big one.
That's the one that it's kind of like the the rite of passage almost to be asked about your protein intake.

(42:54):
So, you know, you'll probably get comments of where do you eat your protein?
It's actually bonkers. I find that we still get that question so often.
But you'll probably get asked that at some point and people will bring up things like plant proteins don't have as much don't have many amino acids or don't have all the essential amino acids, which are the building blocks of protein, or you don't absorb as much from plant foods or whatever other argument.

(43:23):
And I mean, there's a couple ways, I guess, to respond to that.
It depends on how detailed you want to get.
The simplest answer would be, well, we have studies comparing a vegan diet to an omnivorous diet and actually measuring muscle and strength gains, and you get the same result.
So why does it matter?

(43:43):
Like, even if there are differences in amino acid contents or digestibility, clearly not enough if you get the same muscle and strength gains at the end of the day.
Like that that is sort of the end result final outcome that should ultimately matter.
Now, if you want to combat each of the individual points, you could say that while all plants contain all of the essential amino acids, and we've known that forever at this point.

(44:06):
So that's just not true.
And then the other digestibility aspect is a lot of people over exaggerate how much they differ.
In reality, if you take like a high quality animal protein and a high quality plant protein, like, say, soy protein or something, the difference in digestibility is like a few percent.
It's basically nothing. It's not meaningful.

(44:28):
And so those would be the responses, at least the short responses to each of those claims.
But at the end of the day, I would just go to, well, why then do we see the same result when you actually compare vegans to meat eaters in these trials?
Yeah, and I don't know that you'll have an answer to this one.
I don't know that I have it either.

(44:50):
One of the uncomfortable situations I find myself in.
I'm just going to put myself on the spot is that if I'm being totally objective, I hope no bias here, I am probably.
The healthiest and fittest member of my family.

(45:10):
Yet there are people who are in very poor health, perhaps morbidly obese, have all kinds of health implications, adverse health situations.
Who have no problem giving out health and wellness advice or might tease, you know, sitting around a family gathering, you know, you're not going to eat the chicken, you're not going to eat the turkey.
What's wrong with you? I mean, I literally got those. I grew up on a farm.

(45:33):
I have a very much a farming family, farming relatives, farming community.
Of course, I'm going to get that maybe more than some other people.
But why is it again? I don't have an answer that you can you can look the part.
I was a champion runner and then champion vegan bodybuilder, both on a plant based diet.
I wrote a New York Times bestselling book on this subject.

(45:54):
I I was flexing yesterday.
I look, you know, in pretty good shape.
Yet those who lack the knowledge and lack the results still want to be combative with their perspective, where they're sharing an opinion that's not based in information or knowledge learned on a given subject.

(46:17):
But they might be the loudest person in the room.
And I know people listening to that are thinking of a certain relative right now.
I guess I haven't found a good answer to overcome that, aside from just being mean and they will look at me and look at you, you know, look at like, but I don't want to do that.
Right. And I don't do that with my relatives and I really like them, you know, even if they really struggle with health and wellness, I'm trying to show them a better way.

(46:43):
But they're hung up in their own historical biases of the foods that are comforting for them and whatever top of the food chain position they feel that they're in or dominion over others and just the fact that they've lived it for 40, 50, 60, 70 years and unwilling to change.
But I just find it interesting that those without the knowledge have some of the strongest opinions. Do you come across that in your family or in maybe some of your patients' families?

(47:13):
And have you found a way to rectify that or answer those questions or comparisons that are being presented to you?
I mean, yeah, like usually I just ask them what evidence they have and then it's pretty quick from there. But because I have a lot like I the thing is, I don't know if this will apply to most people listening, but I can actually cite a lot of specific studies off off my head just from doing this for so long.

(47:43):
So when people bring up certain topics, like it's easy enough to be like, well, what are you basing that on? Oh, I've read that. This is what's wrong with it. Obviously, that isn't something that you can just pull out unless you've spent many, many hours diving into this stuff.
So, you know, a lot of the time, I still think it's a valid task. Well, where did you hear that? Because if it's like a podcast or something, you probably say it's not the best source. But otherwise, you could always point towards like, well, then why do the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics endorse this sort of dietary pattern?

(48:20):
Why are the American Heart Association, American College of Cardiology recommending plant based dietary patterns to prevent cardiovascular disease? And on and on and on. Like, you can usually cite some of those organizations. Now you're going to run into some maybe more conspiracy theorists who aren't going to accept that.
But it's hard to combat it necessarily in other ways without having more knowledge of the subject matter, like as far as specific studies and whatnot. But also as to why are these people sometimes so confident in their position have strong such strong positions, it comes down probably to what's called the Dunning Kruger effect. Are you familiar with that?

(49:03):
Yeah, I am. Yeah. So so people who generally have less expertise in a certain area, often have greater confidence in their knowledge of that subject matter. So what if you take someone who's like foremost expert in, we'll say, lipidology, so that'd be things like cholesterol and whatnot.

(49:27):
They will often speak in ways they're like, well, x may lead to y. You know, we know that x does this in this situation, but we aren't, you know, it's not clear in this other situation, like they'll use that sort of cautious language. Whereas someone without much expertise, maybe they've read a couple blogs or watched a couple videos, and they're, you know, super confident all of a sudden on their on their expertise on the topic, they'll be like, x does y, it causes this or it does not cause that.

(49:55):
And they'll be much more direct in the way that they respond to that's just not how most scientists, good scientists anyway would discuss most topics.
Right, I don't know many scientists who do behave in that in that everyone's always, you know, hedging their bed and you know, maybe someone else is smarter in the room or maybe you know knowledge that I don't or maybe you've seen other results through your patients or I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and there's probably some variation here.

(50:26):
Whereas, whether it comes to religion, politics, nutrition, weightlifting, there's always that bro science approach that, yeah, this is the reason why you're you know this reason why you're out of shape bro, you know, you're not doing all the way protein and the casein that slowly releases during the night while you sleep you got to take that at two in the morning, you know, like, there's a lot of that out there.

(50:53):
And that was a good impression.
Oh, I wasn't even wasn't even trying but thank you.
But also Dr. Niagara. Like, it just to me it seems so obvious but maybe I'm missing something here and I'm making a mistake.
Can't we just look at historical dietary patterns over the last few decades and our current outcomes and make some conclusions that what we're doing on a just a population level is is not working when it comes to obesity and diabetes and all that we may not be able to pinpoint

(51:27):
it to animal protein and maybe processed foods in general or sugars or all these other things all combined but can't we at least, even when we're just sitting around with our friends and family and relatives say well, how is it working for us if 73.6% of Americans are currently
overweight 42.5% of Americans are obese. The average adult American consumes 3540 calories per day. I just learned recently that Americans spend 97% of their time indoors, that's maybe an indicator of exercise and fresh air and physical activity, and all

(52:04):
that. Can we conclude a little bit that most of us 90 something percent eat the same five dead animals and the other, you know byproducts and heavily processed foods you know the numbers better than I do but isn't it something like 55% of our calories are from
30% animal protein and fit only 15% all plant based material combined on a on a Western diet standard per on average. Can we look at that and just understand that it's not working and, and, and then look at some of the results of those of us who have even that

(52:41):
anecdotal experience on a plant based diet to share with others, those results, is that is there any value in that or is just the anecdotes and the perceptions of population analysis just not good enough.
Yeah, so that's what you call an ecological association so you're kind of looking at, you know, the trends in diet dietary patterns over time, and the trends in, say, chronic disease risk and how they correlate the, you know, it's okay as a starting point

(53:11):
to like like that's something that would be one of the first things you would generally see before you dive further into, you know, conducting specific studies around aspects of the nutrition. The problem is there are so many other things that play it is obviously exercise habits
there's advancements in medication there's longer life expectancies which increases disease risk down the road there's all sorts of other things going on. So I wouldn't use that solely to, you know, debunk that claim so to speak, but I would.

(53:39):
Then look at prospective cohorts. So, these are studies where they actually follow people, generally for many years and it'll be a large group of people so if we look at the cohorts that have been running for over three decades now like the nurses health study and health
professionals follow up study combined you have something like 200,000 or over 200,000 participants who have been followed for three decades, and within that you track their diets you track their lifestyles like exercise smoking medication use family history etc.

(54:08):
And when you account for all of that you see that certain dietary patterns generally healthy plant centered dietary patterns are associated with lower risk of mortality of cardiovascular disease, whereas more of the ultra processed foods and like red meats and whatnot are associated with higher risks
of certain diseases. So, that would be much better data because you're able to hone in on specific dietary variables and and directly link that to to the outcome versus on a more population level as you were doing there.

(54:42):
There are just so many other variables that could be at play. Again, it's fine as a starting point, but it's not what I wouldn't use to address the claim.
And I think that's probably more nuanced than sitting around the Thanksgiving table. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Whereas some of those observations just a casual conversation is well how's it working for you. And, you know, a lot of us are struggling with health and maybe there's some openness to changing things.

(55:10):
For the better.
I got a number of questions, I want to ask you, trying to figure out the order to ask them in.
Well, let's see. Well, I guess we'll continue on here with.
Perhaps it's a not too great of a segue here.
But, so what are you, what are you concerned with right now regarding global, the global health of our citizens, some some trends dietary patterns.

(55:43):
There's, there's, obviously there's a big increase in in dairy consumption in certain in certain countries there's a massive increase in meat consumption in China and other parts of the world, regardless of trends out here and United States and Canada.
And I think that gave you the stat that we spend 97% of our time indoors we're certainly not reaching our 10,000 step, you know, a day goal as far as movement as a society.

(56:13):
And maybe misinformation is is high on your list.
But you tell me, what are you concerned with regarding the global health of our citizens.
I think one of the things you hit on there is the increase in meat consumption in particular in a lot of the Asian populations where it's traditionally been quite low.
And as their diet and it's not just meat consumption it's also more again, kind of ultra processed dietary pattern it's more westernization of their diets.

(56:41):
And that doesn't bode well for the future. The problem is, these, these diets they don't affect your health in the short term, generally, or at least not to a massive degree. So, you're not going to see it necessarily reflected in things like population wide heart disease risk or rates for probably a couple decades.

(57:02):
And so that is something that I think is going to be problematic for some of these groups later on, and also on an environmental level, already Western countries are or yeah I'd say mostly Western countries are doing more of their more than their lion share of environmental
damage as far as greenhouse gas emissions and everything. And now we have other countries catching up.

(57:25):
And that's going to just compound on top of that well, and you can certainly speak to environmental scientists like Nicholas Carter who who are who know much more about the specific statistics and whatnot.
But from speaking with them myself around this topic. That doesn't leave us much wiggle room now to address the rises that we're seeing in global temperatures and you know that needs to be addressed sooner than later.

(57:47):
So, there are a couple couple concerns I have there.
Yeah, I think that that list of concerns is growing and growing, I referenced in my latest book, the impactful vegan that there's been 11 peer reviewed 11 peer reviewed papers so far that suggests we're going to have anywhere from a 62% to 242% increase in

(58:12):
animal agriculture by 2050. That's what the next 25 years or something like that.
That's that's pretty scary.
And that's, I don't know all the details but I assume that's that's fishing as well, not just land animal agriculture but overall animal agriculture fishing obviously already were taking out.

(58:35):
We're seeing a lot of fish that one two or three trillion fish from the ocean every, every year to consume.
There are some staggering numbers there as far as environmental implications. And so I have to ask you Dr. Nagret.
What are you optimistic about as far as our global health and wellness for our citizens. What are some bright spots that we can point to some regions of the world where they got it right.

(59:02):
What are some new policies.
Where can we find some hope.
So, actually the biggest kind of glimmer of hope that I see are the recent dietary guidelines that have been released across a variety of European countries in particular so you might know Canada's dietary guidelines here, the, the simplest explanation is like

(59:25):
half of it is fruits and veggies half of it protein foods with a focus on plant based proteins, or sorry a quarter of the protein foods with a focus on plant protein and then a quarter whole grains.
And there's sort of this plate image maybe you can show it on the screen if you have access to that.
That sort of really started this shift towards more like whole plant foods a focus on plant protein and that has been followed up by dietary guidelines in places like, I believe it was Austria, I think, Germany as well.

(59:55):
I believe Norway just released some.
And we're starting to see this and I sorry I might be mistaken on some of the country but we're starting to see this with like every iteration of new dietary guidelines that are coming out, and the US's dietary guidelines are going to come out in the next few months
for their next five years. And based on early reports they are also placing greater emphasis on plant proteins as well. So we're seeing this shift as far as the recommendations go.

(01:00:23):
Now, the question is, how is that going to be implemented and will it be implemented because historically people are not very good at following these recommendations, especially in the US.
So, we'll have to wait and see but at least it's nice to know that there is this shift in those who are actually designing the guidelines and the research they're using to create those guidelines.

(01:00:47):
Yeah, you make some good points there I again I wrote it down before you even said it we must be on the same wavelength here.
And asking that question how effective are these guidelines I mean it's one thing to make a guideline it's yeah especially here in the US you tell Americans to do something they're just not going to do it.
I mean I say that as an American, where it's difficult to get people to adopt a certain behavior I mean I don't know the history it may have taken us a while to start using seat belts.

(01:01:15):
It takes a while to, you know, realize you, you shouldn't drive after drinking alcohol. It takes a while for people to do things that seem so fundamentally important to their own personal health or well being of their families but we don't do it and I think
we don't do it for one of the reasons you touched on earlier. I thought it was so important that I wrote it down.

(01:01:36):
I mean we're talking about some other dietary changes throughout the world, Asian countries where it's, it's out of sight and out of mind as far as the, the impact that it's going to have on one's individual health or the population's health for perhaps a
few years to come. I mean this is way off in the distance. It's very hard to adopt behaviors that are less convenient less fun, less practical, maybe more expensive in the short term, when I may not have to deal with this for another generation or two.

(01:02:10):
But that being said I want to ask about something else.
I'm, I'm friends with Dan Bootner from the Blue Zones, and I've talked to him I've seen him a number of times recently. And he's told me some of this sobering news that some of those initial Blue Zones the areas with the longest lived people the
most the greatest concentration of centenarians those living over 100 are kind of dismantling. They're just the Western, you had a great way of wording it I, I should have written down the westernization, westernization, the westernization

(01:02:43):
of a culture's dietary habits, perhaps, and that changes things so I had dinner with him where he kind of I don't know if he was quietly telling me this but he was saying it with like, you know, a little bit of sadness that yeah Robert you know I wrote all these
books and, you know, film the documentary and everything. But sadly, when I go back to these places, because he still goes there. They've changed they've westernized their diet and their lifestyle and their activity and their movement and what they do.

(01:03:13):
My question for you is, number one, and don't take into account that I'm friends with Dan.
What are your thoughts on the Blue Zones are they scientific enough.
And what are your thoughts on those Blue Zones that did exist at one time shrinking because of the westernization, like it is their hope for more Blue Zones, or is that a blip in our human history of longevity that we may not see for a while because of a overwhelming

(01:03:49):
and influx of Western nutrition ideas.
So, for starters on just the thoughts of what the Blue Zones do I mean I think it's pretty clear based on their dietary patterns their movement habits and whatnot like we know that those are good for you, based on other evidence like we don't have to use the Blue Zones
necessarily for that evidence and I wouldn't say that I would point to Blue Zones and be like this is why these lifestyle habits are beneficial, more so that they may be an example of these lifestyle habits at play, given other research that you know takes into account more variables.

(01:04:26):
The other thing I will say and you know one reason that I've personally been kind of hesitant to cite some of the Blue Zones data and I also want to be clear I haven't read everything that has come out more recently about this but there is some skepticism around the records
as far as life expectancy and all that kind of stuff so I again, I don't want to say too much or calling the question too much of that without reading more about it myself, but there is some skepticism around some of that stuff from what I've seen so far, but again the practices, movement, eating plant predominant diets,

(01:05:07):
social gatherings, like all those things can have positive effects for sure. Also, there are certain Blue Zones where we do have better data, like data actually delving into a lot of the other potential confounders so we have research on say, the seventh day of Venice, largely concentrated in Loma Linda, California, but we also have data across North America, where you can compare different dietary patterns amongst

(01:05:32):
those seventh day of Venice who otherwise live relatively similar lifestyles, and we see that the plant-based, the more plant-based patterns tend to do better than the ones that include more meat.
So, you know there's certain things that we can glean from those populations. And sorry I can't remember if there was another question there that I didn't address but you can remind me.
I think you did, it was whether it was scientific enough, and I think you pointed to some of the holes in the data or some of the maybe misrepresentations of documentation, of recordings, I heard about that recently a friend sent me a link, knowing that I know Dan he sent me a link of someone,

(01:06:12):
he heard on NPR I think criticizing the Blue Zones and faulty data was one of the buzzwords in the headline of that article and all of that.
But I want to make, I want to reiterate a point that you made, that you may have made without even realizing it, that nobody, nobody in these Blue Zones was striving to live a Blue Zone lifestyle.

(01:06:34):
They weren't even aware they were in a Blue Zone. They were just living life. They were, they were, it wasn't like they knew that they had to walk uphill for a certain amount of time and they had to have a 95% plant-based diet or they had to have a glass of wine exactly at 520 p.m.
And they had to have this particular mother and cousin and it wasn't like that. It was a byproduct of their actual behavior that the Blue Zones used as a way to label that population, much like you made the very good point, we have so much more data from the Seventh Day Adventist studies.

(01:07:13):
And I think that's been going on for like 65 years or is it up to 70 years now with the 96,000 participants and one of the big.
That's what it started with. Not all of them are alive now but yeah, I'm trying to think of when it started. I know I don't. So, when they enrolled people it was actually around 2000, 2001 something like that if I recall, but they, the people age wise have aged up to maybe

(01:07:42):
2000 or whatever.
But there was Adventist Health Study one first and that started way back in like the 70s or 80s or somewhere in that ballpark. And that I believe some of that has been followed through I don't know exactly if that's done yet or if it's still running as far as collection or if they were
still in the same situation to Adventist Health Study to I can't recall the details on that. Yeah, but but you're right that there are some areas where there's just so much more data. Yeah, out in Costa Rica or Greece or Italy where these, these were observations, based on these populations

(01:08:16):
that were trying to live long but there was, but there was nobody within that population that was particularly saying okay we need this we need this pillar of faith, we need this pillar of movement we need this pillar of, you know, friend that one, three close friends
or whatever it is. Those just happen to be some similar characteristics that enabled these populations to live longer but when you look deeper, perhaps like with a Seventh Day Adventist you find out it's, you know, a lot more heavily on diet than it would be, perhaps in Italy or

(01:08:50):
in Greece where it was more heavily based on because they lived in kind of remote areas, physical exercise, and community because you're in small, small little towns and communities where that that close kinship added more value than living in Loma Linda where you've got a 7-Eleven down the street and
you know chicken wing place over there and fast food there but, but, you know, the, the diet and the, and the religious faith were the community were big components of that. So, I just thought that was really interesting and want to know your thoughts about some of the

(01:09:24):
the Blue Zone stuff and how scientific it is or is not. Yeah, and actually I think on that note like the point that you made about how it's not necessarily intentional in a lot of ways. I think that points to, to like what we actually need to see to make, or to help people actually adopt a lot of these changes

(01:09:46):
or actually make these changes in say diet and lifestyle, and that's incentivization, perhaps, and making it easier, more accessible. So, you know, there are actually a number of studies on things like, you know, whether you're taxing things that are less healthy or providing
discounts on things that are healthier or, or even just replacing menu items making plant based options the default. There are so many different strategies that lead to people choosing more of the healthier options and to actually incorporate more of those at scale could

(01:10:19):
potentially have a profound impact. And in fact, one of the best public health interventions ever, at least nutritionally, was done in Finland called the North Karelia project. Are you familiar with that? Or have you heard that term before? No, no. Okay, so this was incredible. So they had some of the highest coronary heart disease rates in the world, particularly amongst men. And what they did was they started in this one area, North Karelia, and they eventually expanded to the country as a whole, where they on a

(01:10:48):
population level, you know, food manufacturers involved the whole food industry, they reduce the saturated fat content of the foods that was through, you know, changing up fats for certain types of oils, they reduced the salt intake by replacing some of the salt with salt alternatives. So like potassium based salts, for example, and they dropped like on again, on a population level, they dropped the blood pressure of the individuals, they dropped cholesterol levels. And in fact, they

(01:11:18):
in fact, that ended up explaining most of the results, because they cut coronary heart disease rates by about 80%. Which is crazy, when you consider it's a leading killer in America. So there are examples, very few of these sort of large scale public health interventions actually working. Actually, another thing though, I should mention is they also made like ads and funded programs for smoking cessation as well. So that was the other aspect, it was diet and smoking.

(01:11:48):
But slashing heart disease rates, coronary heart disease rates by about 80% is absolutely wild. On a population level.
Yeah. Just jotting down that final thought there. Yeah, I mean, it reminded me I was going to ask you, I don't think I'll ask it now, but I was going to ask you like, what advice you would give to create those kind of outcomes that made your change within human health, but I want to, I want to maybe step back before that.

(01:12:19):
I want to ask your thoughts on this question. Is this true, or is this a conspiracy? Is this just a, is it just a blanket statement to say to remove any responsibility? There's this idea that there's, there's no money in healthy people, that money is in sick people.

(01:12:45):
That aren't quite dead yet, but they're, you know, they're, they're, they need to be on medications, they need medical care, they need long term care, they need prescriptions, they need pharmaceutical intervention, they need something.
And, and there's just not a lot of money in a healthy society. Is that, is that true or is that a scapegoat? Is that a, I don't know, I mean, a false claim, is it a conspiracy?

(01:13:13):
What do you make of that, of that idea?
Well, look, as far as like public health goes, you save money by having healthier people. Virtually every analysis that's looked at like population level improvements in health through X intervention have eventually shown that the returns on that are pretty huge.
Think about how much money insurers, now again, I know the states is different than Canada, and I'm a bit ignorant to how it works in the states, so forgive me. But like on a population level, if people here were healthy, we'll say in Canada, it would save the government so much money in health care dollars.

(01:13:50):
I don't know how you explain that away and say that they would actually make more money if we're going into the hospital for bypasses and stuff like that.
So yeah, I don't think that that has any merit and even the analyses I've seen on like public health interventions in the states have suggested that if we reduce say hospitalizations for a number of these causes, we'd actually save money or Americans would save money.

(01:14:16):
But again, I'm a little ignorant to some of the ins and outs of exactly how that works there.
Well, I think that maybe we need a separation then from government versus profits from Big Pharma or Big Ag. So would that change your perspective? Like I can understand your reasoning for a healthy population would save a government, would save a, you know, country's budget, whatever on their care of their citizens.

(01:14:41):
That makes sense. But what about all the money that goes to the pharmaceutical companies, to agriculture companies, to medical device companies, to all the brokers, I don't know, maybe insurance companies, others, these for-profit entities within the country or globally that seem to be making unbelievable profits like never before seen.

(01:15:08):
I think that's where part of that statement comes from, of the money being wrapped up in sick people because look at how much Big Pharma, Big Ag, big medical industry is benefiting. Would that change your answer?
Well, I could see that being the case for say certain pharmaceutical industries or organizations or companies. I mean, we can take some of the weight loss drug companies, for example, right now. Yeah, they're making a lot of money on that.

(01:15:39):
But where is the incentive coming from for those types of interventions, for example, or let's say for diet, where is the incentive coming from to adopt healthier diets or to eat poorer diets?
It's the government ultimately that recommends those things, right, as far as dietary guidelines and so on. So the sort of conspiracy there would be that they are recommending dietary patterns that make you sick so these private companies benefit.

(01:16:12):
It actually doesn't make any sense. Again, maybe there's some things going on there that I'm not familiar with based on the system there in America in particular, but I just don't see how that makes any sense.
Yeah, and it may be more of a confirmation bias conspiracy idea that that's what we want to believe. Like just because I live a healthier lifestyle than 95% of my family or maybe even my friends, especially my friends outside of the health and wellness and fitness and vegan world, that's my bias.

(01:16:43):
That's just my perspective that there must be something else at play there because clearly these people don't get it and follow the money and you know it's easy for me to sit here and say follow the money. I learned that in high school, but I'm not even sure I totally fully understand what that means.
I don't know. I don't know every step in the way of government subsidies and who gets what that's decided on and who decides and how much and how much of an influence that really is. I've heard in fact that government subsidies are not that big of a deal on certain crops when it comes to the end product and profit per unit sold of that item.

(01:17:21):
It's fairly insignificant I've read or been told. So, I don't know but one thing I got from what you said, and I wish this were the case more often is just trying to make the healthy choice the easy choice, kind of try to make that the default, whatever it is, whether it's a food choice or an
exercise or movement choice, to try to make, and I wrote that down to where's the incentive, the incentivization of this. How do we get people to take it into their own hands or their own responsibility to say I want this healthy choice to be my choice and I want it to be an easy one.

(01:17:57):
I don't know. I don't know again what that answer is but I do want to move on here. And of course, in the near future I definitely need to ask you about some debates some of your favorites and highlights and who you'd love to debate who's on your wish list as we get
into the holiday season who you can wish for to debate, but, and I do want to be aware of the time as well and make sure we, you know, honor that. But, well I did I did refer to it earlier, I referenced it.

(01:18:31):
Let's ask it now what advice. If you were in charge of setting some guidelines for a population or even just general advice like here's a meme that's going to go on social media but it's going to be viewed by 100 million people.
What advice would you give for people to take control of their health.
Yeah, I mean, take control your health that that's broader than, say nutrition I mean that there's a number of different things there whether that's movement or diet but if we were to focus in on nutrition specifically for a second because I can, I can sort of give the

(01:19:05):
same advice I would give to say a guidelines committee, as I would give to an individual. I'm speaking to, I think one of the most powerful things that you can do for your health from a nutrition standpoint is replace, even a serving of animal protein a day with
animal protein, particularly if the animal protein comes from meat, or like full fat dairy product cream that sort of thing.

(01:19:27):
That that is probably one of the most effective swaps you can make when it comes to your long term say heart health and so on.
And I'm very happy to hear that the guidelines committee is planning to do that for their upcoming iteration of the US guidelines, although there has been pushback from animal egg, as you would expect.

(01:19:49):
So whether or not it ends up in the final iteration we're going to find out in just a couple months here so hopefully it does but that is, I think, probably the biggest or simplest most effective swap you can do.
I would say and I kind of used to say this a bit but I moved away just like just eat more fiber but that's such a cop out because it's there's so many different foods that that encompasses and by saying plant protein you sort of incorporate the fiber already so I go with that instead.

(01:20:18):
Well now it's was bounce around a little bit. Okay, what are what are some of the hottest topics in nutrition right now, some things that may not be on my radar or on on the general public's radar that you see that's like in your world that you do
debate about that you talk about that you go on podcasts and share about or write articles about or talk to your patients about hottest topics in nutrition, right now.

(01:20:46):
So I think you hit, or we already hit a couple of them protein oils.
I think the other one that comes to mind is probably around this like whole low carb high carb debate.
I would say that's a big one, just because there's a lot of people in the OK to carnivore etc space who are sort of demonizing carbohydrates as a whole.
And then there's obviously the other side where recommending more low fat and higher carb.

(01:21:11):
But at the end of the day, I would maybe have the hot take if some people consider it that that it doesn't really matter I think you can be healthy on a low carb or high carb diet.
My only advice would be if you're having a low carb diet that's rich in fats, focus on unsaturated fats, not the saturated fats from things like meat, dairy, coconut oil, etc.

(01:21:33):
And I wrote something down actually weeks ago when I or maybe longer when I first reached out to you about doing this, this interview and it was I think it was on one of your videos about protein and health outcomes.
So Gregor's got a new book out relatively new.
I believe that how not to age one. I think he takes a little bit of a lower protein perspective as we age, yet I hear from so many other people that because of our total calorie intake is lower as we age, and the importance of finite amount of protein.

(01:22:09):
So obviously lower total calories lower portion of protein, lower total consumption of it, and we need it for skeletal muscle and for just maintain our strength and and vitality as we age.
What relationships do you see or what is the data suggests for the optimal, you know protein intake for health outcomes, especially in older populations.

(01:22:33):
So for maintaining or let's say even gaining muscle and strength. To be clear, you can do that on a lower protein diet. Absolutely. The thing is, increasing protein up to about 1.5 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight so basically you take your weight in kilograms,
multiplied by about 1.6 will say that's roughly that target. That is how much you would consume to maximize those gains now not everybody is looking to squeeze out every last little drop of those muscle gain so it's not necessarily a big concern.

(01:23:04):
The thing that I would be more concerned with, especially with an aging population is bone health, and there does seem to be a benefit to increasing protein intake above the recommended dietary allowance to about 1.1 or 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight so it's about 50% higher than is typically recommended, or say, government recommendations.

(01:23:27):
Right. Exactly. And that seems to help reduce risk of like fall related fractures and things like that. So, so, and may increase bone marrow density so that's a positive thing.
Now, when it comes to actually like mortality risk cardiovascular risk and so on. We see that higher plant protein intake is protective, but higher animal protein intake depending on the study is either tends to be not protective or possibly even detrimental to a degree.

(01:23:57):
So, the key distinction there is we want to increase protein intake, mostly from plant sources not so much from the animal sources, and that seems to be the best overall. Now why do people like, say, Dr. Gregor, recommend moderating protein intake a bit more I can't remember exactly what
he recommends but I know it's closer to around the RDA of like 0.8 to one or somewhere in that ballpark.

(01:24:22):
So, from my understanding and I've read the protein section of his book, and I've heard some of his interviews is, it's largely based on these mechanisms so we have studies in, say, animal models or looking at certain markers even in humans, and you'll see that a marker might
increase once you increase protein intake from certain sources. The problem is, this is theoretical okay we know that this marker increases what actually happens in the long run though do people end up living longer do they live a shorter life, you know, do they have a higher

(01:24:55):
risk of XYZ disease.
When you actually step back and look at that long term outcome data, I just don't see any good reason to limit plant protein intake plant protein intake, if anything seems to reduce our risk of those outcomes. So, by stepping back and looking at the final outcome, I would say that the evidence
actually points towards increasing protein intake, but from plants, which is why I recommend that bit of a higher like 1.2 being a pretty good marker for most people.

(01:25:21):
But it's something that maybe one day I'll have a chance to discuss with them I know I see him at the odd conference here there so so maybe we'll have a chat, but I haven't done so yet.
Yeah, and I wonder if that's related to, you know, your perspective on the higher end is that related to knowing that a lot of individuals are probably doing some sort of resistance weight training as they age to create muscle strength, skeletal muscle

(01:25:47):
mass, improve bone density especially, especially lower body exercises where that extra plant based protein can be beneficial post exercise as well. Is that a contributing factor?
Or is that, or is that not a factor? Well, I would assume I have to look back at the specifics to see if they tracked exercise, they probably did in most of these studies but I would, I would always recommend exercise as well.

(01:26:13):
So, to be clear, I would never just recommend jacking up your protein and not exercising so the exercise recommendation should absolutely be baked into that.
But, you know, as far as the hard outcomes like cardiovascular disease and so on. Again, the higher plant protein intake seems to be beneficial there too. Exactly how or why it's not totally clear if it's due to replacing something else or if it is some inherent benefit to those

(01:26:38):
protein rich plants but either way, it's a positive sign we're seeing and we aren't really seeing any harm.
Well, Dr. Nagar, I think it's time in the show for us to do some lightning round questions if you don't mind.
I actually had many more to ask you.
Some even just about like, you know, what's the best part of your job and things that you, how you define health and all that but maybe we won't get into those. This has been such a robust conversation already but I can't let you off the hook

(01:27:07):
without talking about some of these debates and these dream jobs.
So, let's go into, I've got, I don't know, eight questions here but these can be 30 second answers, 20 second answers, or if you need to expand it to 45.
Feel free.
So, really quickly let's jump right into it.

(01:27:29):
What are your favorite studies to reference when it comes to nutrition. What are your go to.
Oh, it depends on the topic if I was going to look at just like overall health outcomes. There was a recent meta analysis on cardiovascular disease by Dagfinn Owen and colleagues, looking at both vegan and vegetarian diets and cardiovascular disease so I think that's a really good one.

(01:27:52):
And then there was actually a new meta analysis on plant based diet index that came out today I can't remember the author but I was just checking it out before I hopped on this call that looks like it's going to be a part of my regular references coming up here and then I would also say
the heavier Lorraine trial on vegan versus omnivorous diets.

(01:28:14):
High protein vegan versus omnivorous diets for muscle and strength gains out of Brazil. That's one that I cite all the time.
Yeah.
What is your greatest strength.
Oh man, I don't know I feel like I'm.
Like, if we're talking about stuff that I do online or in these debates and things like that I think one of the one of my strengths, especially with being so plugged into the online space is I sort of know most of the arguments that come up.

(01:28:45):
I already know how I want to respond a lot of the time, because I've heard it a million times and so it's sort of being able to think like, say my critics or, or have you on a frame that is probably a strength when it comes to doing what I do online.
And here's the here's the big one.
Who is someone you would love to debate.

(01:29:07):
And why.
Popularize the whole carnivore movement, and then later abandoned it and now says that he's animal based even though he eats a lot of fruit, but he has all sorts of views on like cholesterol especially that I would love to debate them on.

(01:29:30):
I would love to debate lane Norton on red meat and health outcomes as well as the topic of animal versus plant protein. In fact, I've offered to and other people have reached out to him and he refuses.
And I think of who else I mean I could probably think of a bunch of Sean Baker is one. He's one of the leaders of the carnivore movement right now and basically on any topic related to like red meat or vegan diets or whatever he makes all sorts of claims on that.

(01:29:58):
And then I like I've debated Anthony Chafee I've debated, like I said, Tucker Goodrich I've debated some other people so those are a few off top my head. What about Huberman is he still on your list.
Oh yeah I debate him for sure on, you know, either one of the animal versus plant protein topics or red meat, similar to lane.
Yeah, that would be that would be great he's got a pretty big platform now as I understand it.

(01:30:21):
Who are the best debaters out there that you know, oh, who are really skilled on either side of the coin there.
Honestly, I don't think there are as far as I know any great debaters on the on the carnivore side right now but I would say Avi Bitterman. He's a doctor in the states, very, very good I've learned a lot from him as far as debate and how to engage with some of these arguments.

(01:30:45):
And Nick Hebert is quite good. Also, learned a lot from him he helped me a lot with the seed oil debate I did with Tucker Goodrich.
I'm just trying to think of who else sticks out. I mean I think like when it comes to ethics I think Earthling Ed does a fantastic job watching a lot of his videos on YouTube he has that very sort of calm collected approach but just the the way that, or the questions that he comes up with and how he addresses a lot of the claims I think is so brilliantly done so I'd say he's a really good one.

(01:31:16):
Yeah, those are a few that just off the top of my head come to mind but I'm sure if I thought about it for a few minutes I'd come up with more names.
Dr. Niagara who are your, who are your role models.
Um, I mean, if you're talking about just overall and not, not necessarily in this field I'd say Angus Young of ACDC when it comes to the guitar but outside of that.

(01:31:40):
I think I have a lot of role models yourself included in the space you know people have been doing it for a long time. I think you do a great job I think like Simon Hill does a fantastic job I've learned a lot from him along the way.
Yeah, it's hard to, to, you know, there's so many people who I've looked up to in the space or who originally got me sort of interested in the space.

(01:32:04):
And speaking of this space and the work that you do and everything and thank you for the kind words, by the way.
What would you be doing if you weren't doing this.
Whoo, that's a good question. I mean I'd probably just be working in the clinic or if I was completely in a different field altogether I'd probably I don't know, being a rock band or something.

(01:32:26):
Not that it get anywhere but that would be a goal. I don't know.
And, you know, I don't know when this is going to air but probably sometime around this holiday season November December.
What are you grateful for.
Oh, I mean lots of things I'm grateful for my health for one you know I have people in the family who've dealt with different sort of health issues.

(01:32:50):
I know people friends, their parents, and so on who've run into problems and I'm kind of glad that, at least right now things are looking really good and you know I've had all my blood work and everything and it looks great.
And then to have the opportunity to, you know, connect with so many like minded people in this space like obviously yourself and so many others who I've gotten to not just meet but kind of get to know over the years by going to these events and obviously speaking to them online and connecting

(01:33:19):
with them. So I think at the end of the day, even though, yeah, you'll see in fighting and all this stuff in the community and I think at its core there's a lot of like really great people and we have a pretty good community so I'm grateful for that.
Well, I've just got a few more questions for you.
And again I appreciate your time and all the detail and the nuances and giving some specifics and citing studies and references and giving people a lot of food for thought pun intended and some homework, some homework and some reading material to to look into.

(01:33:54):
I'm just curious, I've heard of like the other question about what would you be doing. But let's talk about what you are doing. What is the best part of your job, like what's as good as it gets with what you get to do.
Yeah, I think the, the best thing is when you know when you're working on some kind of a health concern or working with a patient on some kind of health concern they're dealing with.

(01:34:19):
You know once they get out the other side, they're so like happy or appreciative and it's not always something, you know super serious or dire or it's not always a negative like for example I had a patient was working with was a year and a bit ago, year and a half maybe
they were trying to get pregnant and we're working on just, you know, obviously they had another team around them as well but but working on just some of the nutritional aspects make sure they were covering their bases for when they do get pregnant and through breastfeeding.

(01:34:49):
And now we just followed up to discuss what to feed their, their baby once they reach your age where they're going to be starting to feed them solids and so like it's just cool to see that transition all the way through and so that's always really rewarding.
And I think that's one of the biggest rewards in the, in the work that you do and I can tell that you enjoy it and you have a lot of fun and you get to impact and influence people's lives which is you're in a very fortunate position to do that to be able to to have that level

(01:35:18):
of impact.
And two more questions for you.
How would you, I usually say like, I usually ask how would you define health I kind of referenced that earlier but how would you define good health or good nutrition.
I find that that's a really hard thing because like the standard definition is like absence of disease but I think it's more so about being, you know, having the ability to being in a place with your health, or I guess I can't use health and the definition

(01:35:49):
of health is like being in a place where you're able to do the things that you want to do and aren't limited by like physical or mental health or some aspect of your health.
That's how I would define it. I know that maybe that's a little vague but I don't really know how else to.
All right, thank you so much for the question. Thank you. And again I appreciate your time and sharing your wisdom and fun discourse we've had. But now we're going to switch gears completely for the last one.

(01:36:20):
All right, here you go, Dr. Nagra, if there was a movie made about your life.
Who would play you.
Oh man, I don't even know, the, the, because someone said I look like I'm the guy who played Aladdin in the live action movie.
but sure, let's go with him.
Okay, we'll go with Aladdin.

(01:36:42):
All right, and off the top of my dome here,
what would be your three wishes then?
Speaking of Aladdin and the genie,
we're adding a bonus question.
What are your three wishes for health and wellness
for your fellow citizens as we go into this new year?
For one, I wish that everyone had the knowledge
that they need to nourish themselves appropriately.

(01:37:04):
Two, have the access,
so that comes back to some of the more policy stuff
that we talked about earlier.
And then two, I don't know, I guess the third one,
which would help with the adherence
would be to make it joyful
or something that people would enjoy
because that tends to be one of the roadblocks
for a lot of people is the learning curve

(01:37:26):
and then new meals and they're missing certain things
to get over that hurdle.
Well said, especially right on the spot there
with the Aladdin reference at the very end
and the genie and the three wishes.
So well done, you conducted yourself well, sir, today.
I've certainly enjoyed this.
Dr. Nagar, where can people find you online?
You've got a robust following now.

(01:37:47):
I see you mostly on Instagram,
but I think you're on probably most of the platforms.
Where can people find you online?
Yeah, I'm on all the platforms,
the YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, X, Twitter, whatever,
but I'm most active on Instagram for sure.
That's kind of where I started
and where I'm commenting on things the most.
But yeah, you can follow me on any of those.

(01:38:07):
I have a website, drmathynagar.com,
where people can read some longer blogs and things
and I'll link this there as well, this podcast episode.
So I have links to the past episodes.
And of course, if you're in BC, Canada for any reason
and wanted to work with me one-on-one,
we can do that as well.
Awesome, well, I'm super grateful for you.
I'm grateful for your time today,

(01:38:29):
the knowledge and wisdom you shared with us.
This was a whole lot of fun for me
and enriching for me.
So on behalf of our Plant-Powered Athlete Podcast,
Dr. Nagar, I wanna thank you so much.
And to all of our listeners, we appreciate you tuning in.
I've been Robert Sheik, this has been Dr. Matthew Nagra
and we wish you a wonderful rest of your week
and a wonderful new year too.
So thank you, sir, appreciate your time today.

(01:38:51):
And thanks for having me.
You got it, all right, until next time, take care everyone.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Matthew Nagra | The Key to Healthy Eating According to Dr. Matthew Nagra | PPAP35