December 12, 2024 • 51 mins
Building a better future starts on our plates. Matthew de Gruyter, founder and CEO of Next Level Burger, shares his inspiring journey from an all-American diet to leading the plant-based revolution.
Explore how principles, sustainability, and taste combine to create meals that nourish people and the planet.
From redefining burgers to reshaping communities, this episode is a powerful reminder that intentional choices pave the way for a healthier, more connected world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. I have one of my favorite people on the podcast today.
(00:06):
We have a random meeting that happened in our early sort of relationship, but really the felt
like kindred spirits. Matt DeGroiter is the founder, CEO, the instigator for Next Level Burger.
We'll hear more about that over 10 years. Recently also pulled in Veggie Grill into the family,
(00:27):
really bringing an amazing alternative to some of the other forms of casual, sort of quick serve
kind of dining that's available. I think as we get to talk to Matt, you'll find out that he has a
mission of sort of helping people on a health and wellness path. It's not just about sort of labels,
(00:50):
but about better choices. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Thank you, Joe. I'm doing
fantastic. I'm doing fantastic. It does seem like just yesterday, you and I and our paths intersected
at our Denver Next Level Burger store just by the University of Denver campus. And time flies when
(01:11):
you're having fun. It was just right after the weekend. Yeah, it wasn't long thereafter,
which is now two and a half years ago. Wild. But when your obsessed time seems to move more quickly
too, I must confess. And I think I may be a little bit obsessed with what I get to do for a living.
(01:31):
Yeah. So tell everyone, tell a little bit about like, because your story is the story that I love,
right? Of course, which is I was something, I became something, and now I am an inspired person
here. Tell the audience a little bit about your background, how you found your way to where you
are today. Yeah, I appreciate the kind words and framing it that way. So yeah, what I always say
(01:54):
is I grew up on 100% not plant-based diet, right? An all-American diet that was chock full of animal
proteins and as much cheese as you could pour on a plate. And yeah, always a side of veggies,
but that was always the side. And I was very fortunate to grow up with a mother that cooked
(02:18):
everything from scratch. And so we didn't eat a lot of processed food, but we did eat a lot of animal
foods. And, you know, it's probably a reflection of my disposition in some ways. I never even
thought twice about it. In fact, I didn't even know a vegetarian until my wife decided to become a
(02:40):
vegetarian in 2008. So I was in my late 20s, the first time that I met a vegetarian, and that was
something that happened real time in our relationship. And so, you know, what I love about my story
is that it isn't about whether someone's vegan or plant-based, going back to the conversation
(03:04):
we were having before we hit go today. It's about helping educate people and then give them
something to do with that education. And I'm a good example of that, right? You know, at 27 years
old, if you'd asked me to eat a plant-based burger, I wouldn't have really understood what you were
saying. You'd have to explain it to me. And then I would have probably come back with something on
(03:26):
the lines of, well, that's not a burger, right? It's got to have beef or bison or something. I
mean, chicken wasn't manly enough for me to admit to eating at 27 years old. It had to have some
real testosterone to it. And yet here's this same guy, former Marine, you know, who ate easily 10
(03:48):
pounds of red meat a week into my late 20s. And I mean easily, I've done the math. That has now
spent the last 14 years on a mostly plant-based diet and the last 10 years I've been vegan.
Yep. And what has come out of that is that my whole family, my wife and I and our two kids,
(04:09):
now 13 and 17, are living a vegan lifestyle. And so no matter what you call that lifestyle,
it's one that is more compassionate. It's one that is far more sustainable. And I would argue,
it's much healthier for us as individuals and as a species collectively. And so the exciting thing
(04:35):
about the future is that the potential is almost limitless. And I think what we have been called
into in this very interesting period of time where we have the world at our fingertips, right? With
this little smartphone that most of us are carrying around. We've never had more access to the truth,
to information, and now it's up to us to actually do something with that. And so the intersection of
(05:02):
me becoming vegan and embracing this way of living life and building a business is now something that
we have been so very blessed to invite millions of people into participating alongside of us.
Some of whom are vegan, many of whom are vegan, but roughly half of our guests aren't. And we're
(05:23):
able to invite them into our space and they can eat healthily and sustainably and compassionately
and feel good about the decision that they're making. And you just never know when those
moments are going to be an inflection point for somebody else to start their journey. And
maybe that doesn't end up being vegan, but maybe it means that they eat 50% more plants. And you
(05:46):
know what? If the world shifts in a direction like that, we have a completely different world.
And the word he didn't throw in there, which we know really matters, and I
go to the next level probably more frequently than I should because I should probably cook sometimes.
But we support that. Taste matters, right? You're trying to move someone from something to another.
(06:12):
And you have with your menu and your approach brought good taste and a nutritional profile
that's better and a good experience. And so talk a little bit about the taste piece,
because I think that's what gets people coming back.
Yeah. And I think conversely, it's also what sends people away never to come back again.
(06:35):
And that was one of the downsides to this boom in vegan things that we saw from 2019 into 22
and early 23 is that you had this land grab for vegan anything. And you had a lot of really
mediocre products that led to a lot of experiences with folks that say, if that's vegan, I'm not
(06:58):
going to eat vegan. And so that moment passes. Whereas what we are delighted to be able to bring
to our guests is when they sit down for the first vegan meal of their life and go, oh my gosh, if
this was vegan, I could eat vegan every day. And for us, this all goes back to the beginning.
Now, when Sierra is my wife and our co-founder, our chief visionary officer, when she and I
(07:24):
decided to start Next Level Burger, America's first vegan burger joint, first plant-based burger
joint, what we called it for the first many years, it really was an outflow of a need for our
family. We want it to be plant-based. And that did exist. Veggie Girl was one of our haunts.
But there was no place in the whole wide world, I mean, the whole wide world, that you could go
(07:52):
get a plant-based meal made with organic and non-GMO ingredients, and certainly not one that
was accessible in communities across the country. And at the ripe age of 30, which seems laughably
young now at 42, and my wife at 28 or 29, we decided to start America's first vegan burger
(08:16):
joint. And what we said to ourselves with kids at six and not quite two was that we're only going
to put on this menu things that we would put on our dinner table at home in front of our own kids.
And so that is going to be a commitment to organic produce. And we're going to be able to
produce absolutely not when seasonally available to non-GMO ingredients, to the best in class
(08:42):
ingredients. And what that's translated into, next level burger, and now for Veggie Girl over
these past many months since our acquisition of Veggie Girl earlier this year, is that the food
is amazing because it's made out of amazing things. And it sounds like such a simple proposition,
but if you want to make an awesome apple pie, you don't go by the bottom of the barrel,
(09:06):
literally apples and the cheapest sugar and so on and so on. And the most enriched, most bleached
wheat. No, you get organic wheat and some phenomenal organic apples. And guess what? As long as you
are pretty good at following directions, at the end of that, you're going to have something
(09:28):
delicious that is going to make the Marie calendar pie you buy in the freezer aisle at Safeway pale
in comparison. And that's the experience difference for us at Next Level. It is top shelf. It is
principled and it is delicious. And when someone can feel good about something that tastes so good,
(09:53):
you have that positive reinforcement that has a tendency to keep them coming back. Yeah. And you've
delivered a price point also that is very approachable for pretty much anyone who wants to
eat in your restaurants. And so that's got to be a bit of a challenge too, because you get good
(10:15):
quality, organic, everyone always says too expensive. Yeah. And do it. You guys are not at a
hyper scale like McDonald's Burger King. You're getting a little scale, but still that's hard.
How are you making that work? Well, yeah, we now have 25 stores coast to coast. And so at this
(10:36):
point, our supply chain has really started to cook when it comes to the economies of scale.
But for us, again, we come back to principles. And this did not happen overnight. This is an
evolution. But for us, the principles that started the company still guide us to this day. We have
(10:57):
our creative commitments. And for us, when it comes to pricing our food, it's not black magic
or something that is, well, this feels like it should be this much or it feels like it should be
this much or it feels like it should be that much. We say, okay, what's an industry standard for
cost of goods? It's about 30%. So we need to price our menu to reflect a 30% thereabouts cost of
(11:22):
goods. And so we go through our menu and we price it accordingly. At the same time that we are
accounting for costing it out, it's top shelf everything. And that's where perception and
reality can run into each other. Sure. It is more expensive to eat organic. It is more expensive to
(11:42):
be more selective in anything, whether you're talking about cars you drive, shoes you wear,
clothes you put on your back or the food you ingest in your body. There's always a cost,
but it isn't an exponential cost. It isn't an exponential cost. And it is for most people,
a cost that can be absorbed with a degree of reasonability because let's be real.
(12:08):
I'm from Denver, Colorado. I grew up eating Chipotle. When I was in high school,
it cost me about five, six bucks to get a burrito. It now costs me 11 or $12 to get a burrito at
Chipotle. And yeah, I'm still eating Chipotle these many, many years later. It's gotten to
(12:28):
it's gotten expensive to eat almost anything. I think my father-in-law spends 15 bucks going
to McDonald's still these days for lunch. It's no longer the place you walk out and spend three or
four bucks and get it. So everything's expensive. And if everything's expensive, let's just be as
wise as we can about what we put on our bodies, because it is difficult to argue there are any
(12:51):
better investments to make than the ones we invest in ourselves from a health perspective,
the ones that we invest in ourselves from a societal perspective. And, you know, the fact of
the matter is climate change and going away, it's just becoming clearer and clearer that this is the
moment of humanity to get right. And this is our opportunity. And that's still number one way
(13:15):
we make the biggest difference is in climate change and is eating more plants. It can really
be that simple. Yeah. So good ingredients, good taste, and a good price. Yep. You're starting to
roll out, you get 50% of your people come are not vegan or plant based. People are eating your food,
(13:37):
which is great. And so you're going on this journey and you're rolling out stores. So it's
amazing. Probably think like I just opened one and now I got 25. So that's pretty fascinating.
You're starting to drive a bit of a dialogue into the food world now, right? You know, surely
there are industrial food companies that are far, far, far bigger. But what do you think is some of
(14:02):
the key part of the dialogue? Cause you said, you know, organic, non-GMO. But, you know, what about
this ultra processed dynamic that we're hearing more and more about, you know, where people are
saying that's just not good to eat that, but that's what's only available. You know, how are you
thinking? Is the food system starting to shift at all outside of the small window that you have? Are
(14:27):
we seeing things better happen soon? Now? Later? That's an interesting question. I like that
question. I think that there is no lack of noble causes to fight for in our world today, right?
I mean, the list is long, long, and there are so many people whose names you will never hear. You
(14:48):
won't see them in the news. They won't be the who to follow on Instagram, but that are sacrificing
blood, sweat and tears to push the world in the right direction. You know, Martin Luther King,
famous for saying that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
Yeah. I humbly add something to that line and that is, but you got to lean on it.
(15:13):
Mm hmm. Yeah. You got to lean on that arc. And so I think it's up to all of us, and this is something
I share with both my kids at 13 and 17, find where and how you can lean on that arc. And so in some
ways, I think we have come so far in such a short period of time. I mean, we're literally talking
(15:35):
about the human species eating differently than it ever has before. I mean, the very concept of
eating a vegan diet, vegetarian has been around a long time, but a vegan diet is practically brand
new. And there's a learning curve there. And this is something that I'm very mindful of with people
is that eating vegan is not a magic pill. It's something you have to do intelligently, just like
(16:00):
anything else in the world. But if you walk into Dallas, Texas, or walk into a restaurant in Dallas,
Texas, and you ask for something vegan, they know what you're talking about. 10 years ago, they would
have said, what did you just say? And I know that because I was in Texas about 10 years ago, 12 years
(16:21):
ago, and starting to share with people that I was vegan, or my wife was vegan, but she'd chicken was
usually something along the lines of the response. I was in Dallas a couple years ago for my nephew's
graduation and vegan options abound. Same thing with organic. Organic was something that I remember
(16:42):
when my mom started buying organic in 08. And I remember laughing at what a hippie was doing.
I remember laughing at what a hippie she was becoming, lovingly, of course. But now, organic
is something you can find in just about every city in this country, inclusive of a Dallas or a Houston,
(17:08):
Texas. In fact, in Dallas, now organic juice bars abound. So I pick on Dallas because it's where I
spent a lot of my life. And it's also where I started going vegan. So I went to the state capital
of the United States to stop eating steak. But the shift in the direction of more healthy, more
(17:33):
sustainable is happening. Now, I will also say that the status quo is doing everything it can to
protect itself because the center aisles of grocery stores are jam packed with big foods, ultra
processed this and ultra processed that. And they've been making money hand over fist for decades
(17:57):
feeding America food that was, I think, unintentionally bad for them. Maybe we moved into more intentionality,
but the excuse of ignorance is disappearing fast. It's now clear these ultra processed foods are
awful for us. And it's very clear that the combination of ultra processed animal foods are
(18:18):
even worse for us because you magnify some of the negative aspects of an animal based diet when you
make these things ultra processed, hot dogs, for example. And so I think the world's waking up,
Joe. It's encouraging. And look, I think you just said it with the Martin Luther King quote, you know,
(18:39):
the story arc might be long, but at least we're on the arc now, right? Yeah. But think about what 500
years ago looked like. Think about the fact that the Civil War was 160 years ago, that civil rights,
the fight that Martin Luther King and many others like John Lewis fought, that was 60 years ago.
There were still folks in Congress that were decrying gay marriage, whether you are for it or against it,
(19:06):
in the 90s. And here we are in the 2020s, marking a new course for our country and for our world.
And we're moving in the right direction. And it's never just steps forward. It's always steps forward,
then some back and then steps forward, then some back. But that's why it's so important for those
of us that have an opportunity to lean on that arc. And I would argue everybody does. And then it's
(19:32):
up to those that decide they're actually going to. Yeah. It was interesting on my early part of my
plant-based journey, I was organizing a dinner for a bunch of people. And so there's some plant-based
people and the people I was talking to, they said, what do those people eat? So to your point, you
know, we didn't know a lot. Now, at least we know. But the key, I think this is really important,
(19:57):
and we can then talk a little bit about why you went into it, combined with Veggie Grill.
If we don't acknowledge what the potential obstacles are, then we would expect a bigger fight.
So you've taken care of a price, taste, nutrition, availability. You're working on saying, I can't be
(20:20):
naive and just say the category is going to win because it's better. I have to win because I
understand the consumer and I want to give them actually the same, but better. Right? Great tasting,
good price available, and it's healthier. That's a pretty darn good value proposition. So
(20:40):
it is. And that thread that you're pulling on, I'll pull on with you. You got to get to the point
where you're demonstrably better. And the question isn't why would I eat plant-based? It's why
wouldn't I? Yeah, right. And sometimes people ask, what are your reasons? And we can all have
whatever the reasons, but in some way, the reason isn't just animals or plants. It's actually,
(21:08):
I want to live the best life I can live. That's really what our intention needs to be. And that
is this combination of nutrition is really important, but so many other parts of our lives
are important. When we build a community of people who are making better choices, then we have role
models who we can follow and then they'll make better choices. And then-
(21:31):
Yeah. You mentioned this early. It's living lives of intentionality across the board, how we love
our family, our friends, how and what we consume when it comes to nutrition for ourselves.
The decisions that we make need to be decisions with intentionality, because if they're not,
(21:53):
the default decisions are rarely, if ever, going to be best for us. The easy path is rarely the
best one. In fact, it's usually diametrically opposed. And we need to, in our business,
and I would argue in many other businesses across the country, we need to make it easier
(22:13):
for people to choose the better path. And yet, in some ways, of course, this is always the case.
When you're on the right side of history, it's an uphill climb. You've got other things pushing
against you. If you want your kids to spend less time on screens, don't give them one of these.
We have an epidemic of screen time abuse and addiction to smartphones. Same thing with energy
(22:38):
drinks and so on and so forth. But tell my 17-year-old not to drink energy drinks. Good luck.
But you know what he can do? He can drink an organic herbal mate from Guayaquil, as opposed to
a Monster, 180 milligrams of caffeine that's actually made out of something that looks like
food and has some level of quality to it compared to a Monster or a Red Bull. And so you just,
(23:06):
you can't ask people to walk around in some guru monk type place and expect for more than
one out of a thousand to do that. But if you say, hey, here's an energy drink that's made out of
good stuff, that's not going to give you the same sort of crash and that you can find in gas stations
across the country, awesome story. Same thing with whether it's a next level burger or veggie
(23:32):
grilled by next level. If you're in one of our 25 places that we now operate restaurants, you don't
have to say, gosh, I want a great burger, but I know that's not good for me. I don't feel good in
the next couple of days after having a traditional burger. Or I'm thinking about my kids that are
graduating from high school or college or my grandkids. And I'm thinking about the world I'm
(23:54):
leaving behind me. I mean, half the beef consumption in this country is by white males over the age of
50. Half. Hey, it's Nathan Crane, founder of Plant Powered Athlete. And I want to thank you for tuning
into the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. And as a special thank you, I want to give you a 10% discount
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(24:18):
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(24:39):
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Thanks again for tuning in. So when you're having that moment of reflection and you've got a great
option like Next Level Burger, and I can brag on it shamelessly because it's our teams that make
it happen, right? We're just here to support our teams. You can walk in and have a great experience,
(25:05):
feel good about your grandkids, feel good about your daughter who's getting married. You can feel
good about the world that you're helping leave behind with every small and great decision that
you make. And that's what we've got to do. That's what we've got to see as a transition. And Tesla
gets picked on a lot, but they did this in the EV space. They made really good cars. And so it wasn't
(25:26):
that you had to drive around in something that got from zero to 60 in 15 seconds. You could feel good
and look good and get a great experience. I won't talk about Cybertruck because I love to make fun
of those. But when the Model S came out, people were blown away. Yeah, you can always make better
choices. So then Next Level was your vision and your wife's vision. So you guys created that
(25:53):
exactly the way you wanted. It's been beautiful. Thanks for doing that. So then you have this veggie
grill out there, which wasn't necessarily your vision. What was it that drove you to say,
hey, I think it's better if we start to combine some of these entities. And how is that coming
together and how do they evolve together into the future? Well, okay. So there are two answers to
(26:20):
that. One is a little cheeky and a little bit of insight into me. And the other one is the more
logical sequence one. The first one, it's a little more fun, is that Veggie Girl is our biggest
competitor. And from the very beginning, I wanted to be bigger than Veggie Girl, right? Because I'm
actually competitive. And that may be driven by ego. So forgive me. But I wanted to be the biggest
(26:45):
in the space and the best. And again, probably some ego reflected there because I'm just fiercely
competitive, whether it's badminton or a board game, something silly or business. The second piece
is that we got to this weird place in the Coronaverse, as Neil deGrasse Tyson called the
(27:09):
period of time with COVID-19, where it got pretty much prohibitively expensive to build restaurants.
I mean, I'm talking 50% or more cost increases that happened just overnight. And in some cases,
a lot more labor, materials. I mean, we built restaurants to the whole thing. I mean, it was
(27:32):
just crazy, absolutely crazy. And there's this moment where this arbitrage opportunity came to
bear, where it actually was arguably a better bet to buy restaurants than to build restaurants.
And so we basically, we continued to build restaurants, but we started looking for
(27:55):
acquisition opportunities. And that is what led us to Veggie Grill because, you know,
so a little bit of a play out of an old book, even going back to John D. Rockefeller's consolidation
of oil refineries in the Gilded Age, we said, let's start with our biggest competitor.
(28:18):
And that's what we did. And what we found was a company that was heading in the wrong direction.
I'll put that very generally and very politely. That had unbelievably amazing people working for
it, that deserved an opportunity to do it right, who deserved an opportunity to be
(28:43):
taken care of. And communities that had come to rely on Veggie Grill for plant-based food,
that deserved better. They deserved something. It wasn't just looking back to the golden era
of Veggie Grill in 2007 to 2012, 13, because there were some organic things on the menu.
(29:09):
There were higher quality cleaner ingredients. And of course, it's always been vegan. And a big shout
out to TK Pillen and his co-founders. They always stuck to those guns. And that's something that I
really respect. But we can do better. You know, we can always do better. No matter how good a dad
(29:29):
you are, you can be a better dad. So keep leaning on that. No matter how good a human are, you can
be a better human. So let's keep leaning on that.
And so what we decided is that we needed to take good care of these team members. We needed to set
them up for success with the right kind of leadership, the right ingredients. So within
weeks post-acquisition, we rolled out all organic produce. They said it couldn't be done. We did it
(29:52):
in a few short weeks. And made sure that when it came to the way that we approached running our
restaurant business, it's not the customer is always right. It's we've got our teams back and we
start there. And then we work hours. And that comes back to the reflection I have within the
first six months of starting Next Level Burger. Because both Sierra and I started as managers
(30:17):
in our company. Because I didn't want to be the guy that used to wear a suit that, you know,
was like, hey, will you run this restaurant for me? I think it's a great idea. I put on the
trucker hat and the t-shirt and I did the
that for years and years. Probably did it too long, if I'm being honest. And so applying all
(30:39):
those lessons to Veggie Girl allowed us to not just turn it around, but to take it to a level
that it's never been before. And that is, again, it's not a testament to how awesome I am or Sierra
is. It is a testament to what taking care of your people can mean. And sticking to your guns of
(31:03):
principles can mean. And so now our cost of goods is razor sharp. Our labor costs are razor sharp.
Our teams are lit up and motivated. They have an opportunity to participate in the hard work and
the fruits of their labor. And I don't care if it's Veggie Girl by Next Level, Next Level Burger,
(31:26):
or another brand that we may or may not be working on acquiring. What I care about is people being
taken care of as our team. So that's living wages. I care about it always being plant-based or vegan,
always being organic produce. And we're just about there on getting rid of the last GMO
included ingredients that still exist in our supply chain as we shift over to organic wheat
(31:53):
for our burger buns and non-GMO fries on the way to national organic fries for both sides of the
brand fence. So, I mean, long story short, it's about impact and maximizing that.
How many locations are there at Veggie Girl?
So we have 10 Next Level burgers and we have 15 Veggie Girls with our next Veggie Girl by Next
(32:19):
Level ready to open up early this coming year. Do you see, you know, we have this interesting
concentration of population around the country, you know, 50% of Americans live within 50% of
the ocean, you know, so it's like very concentrated on the coasts. We've got the
(32:41):
middle of the country that's getting, you know, deserted in a sense.
Yeah, in some ways.
And some population locations. Are you focused on certain geographies in the beginning of this,
like going to places where it's more likely to succeed and then over time going to more places
generally? Absolutely. I mean, but also boldly. So going to Austin, Texas, a lot of people
(33:11):
and Veggie Girl included weren't willing to go to Austin, Texas because the demographics
didn't seem to support expansion there. And, you know, John Mackey, the co-founder of
Whole Foods and CEO for the first 42 years, replaced a couple years ago for the first time
(33:32):
as he stepped off and now is pursuing another very cool idea as his next act. But, you know,
he's someone I was able to glean quite a bit of wisdom from over these years that I have known
him. And geography is really important, but there's also that intuition piece that comes along with it.
(33:56):
And we've done a lot of things. In fact, we've done many things that have flown in the face of
the traditional restaurant playbook through a combination of intuition. And also, would you
rather be lucky or good? Well, I'd rather be both. We've worked very hard and we've been very fortunate
to have the right things happen at times and the right sequence for us to end up in the right place.
(34:22):
And so, you know, as it relates to this macro conversation that you're kind of speaking to,
it's a weird time. It's a weird time in American sort of history. I think people are going to look
back on this time period in 80 years, 100 years, and have a lot to say. But, you know, going back
(34:44):
to picking on Dallas in some ways and then bragging on Dallas now, whether it's Dallas, Texas, or, you
know, I mean, I grew up in such a way that I spent a lot of time in a lot of places that are not New
York City, Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, right? You know, and so this is not something
(35:10):
that I'm ignorant of. You know, I've eaten, you know, deep fried animal food in Biloxi, Mississippi.
You know, I have eaten seafood fresh out of St. Charles Bay in Louisiana, in the oil fields there.
I have, I don't want to quote, you know, Johnny Cash and say, I've been everywhere, man, but I have
(35:34):
been a few places. And I'll tell you what is true is that everybody everywhere wants to live a better
life. We just have to help these communities across the country choose better, whether it's, and have
choice, right? Have choice. And that, I think, is one of the greatest asks of the 21st century is
(35:58):
that, is it the free market, the capitalism, can capitalism answer that duty and responsibility
of giving choice that is a good choice to the people? Yeah. I think so completely understand and
agree. And if you have no access, then we're not going to have any change. So it's sort of a little
(36:20):
bit like, you know, for, and I do think that there will look, I mean, Eleven Madison has three star
Michelin as a vegan restaurant with a price point that most can't get to, but it's proven to be
proven that you can produce the most elegant, exquisite, amazing food without having meat or
(36:43):
animal-based products there. So we know that on both ends of this, right, we've proven this,
you've proven it on what's might say is the most accessible level. And then we got it all the way
to high level. And then part of the issue is accessibility. Like, you know, you can go to a
restaurant and you or I could probably hit this and say, there's literally only one item on a menu
(37:07):
of 43 items. It doesn't have some form of animal protein or cheese or something in there. And you're
like, does that mean that it's bad food? People won't eat it. And, you know, I've come to this
thing, which is that we're not educating people enough on that. If that's there and choice is
available, then more people will choose. But if there's no choice, then you come to the conclusion
(37:31):
that no one wants it. So do you think that we're, you know, because look, what you're doing helps
to create some momentum, right? Yeah. But do you think that we're starting to see a momentum shift
of other places providing some more options? Because the minute we start to see them,
(37:54):
eat them, they taste good, affordable, whatever, then we might do that more. How do you feel we
are in that cycle of movement? Often cited Gardner Hype Cycle. Yeah, right. And I think,
you know, the trough of disillusionment for those familiar with the Gardner Hype Cycle is where we
(38:15):
were for about an 18 month, 24 month period, depending on who you were in the space. We were
really quite protected against it. We felt it way later and it started to abate way sooner than some
that I know of. But we certainly were subject to that sort of trough of disillusionment to some
(38:36):
extent. But I think part of what helped offset it was the fact that so many of our guests are not
vegan. They just love our food. And so, you know, we were able to weather a really weird
back half of 22 and into 23, you know, really started to abate in 24 in a lot of ways.
(39:00):
But you saw a big pullback, a big pullback, you know, where you could get a vegan thing
on a menu, maybe it wasn't there anymore. And yet I think that's just all part of the process.
Yeah. You have excitement and this explosion of interest. And then you have, and not organically,
you know, big ag really pushed hard against this surge of interest in plant based food that is now
(39:29):
resurging, I think, but much more so. And the tough thing for our space that maybe people don't want
to hear, but I think it, and so I'm going to share it. We've got years of hard work ahead of us.
Like, this is not something that I think, I mean, I'd be delighted to wake up to a vegan world tomorrow,
(39:50):
but we're talking like a multi-decade thing that it's going to take, I think, for us to really get
to the point where we're talking about approaching anything near critical mass. Now, I hope I'm wrong
about that. I hope it happens sooner. And God knows climate change and human health and the rest of the
species that share this planet will be greatly relieved to find that we have kicked up the pace
(40:15):
of our journey toward a more just, a more compassionate, a more sustainable world.
But I think it's going to take a lot of time. And so if you're going to be in this space,
understanding that this isn't a, is it going to take six to 12 months? This is a, it's going to
take 10 or 20 or 30 years to really get where we want to go. I mean, people,
(40:36):
Whole Foods is such a good analogy. And I don't just bring them up because they're one of my
favorite companies of all time. And they've been our partner for years. I had a big crush on Whole
Foods from the time I started just thinking about eating better to when we started, they became our
largest investor back in 2017. But, you know, I think they have like a 4% market share or something
(40:58):
like that with 500 stores and, you know, $20 billion in revenue. Like people don't know how
big the food business in America is. It's a, the restaurant business space alone is $900 billion.
It's huge. It's huge. It's unfathomable. And that's not including the grocery space. So the
(41:21):
numbers are just so ginormous of what it takes to feed America. And yet Whole Foods built a
multi-billion dollar business on single digits of market share. So where is Whole Foods going to be
in 50 years? I don't know. It's exciting to think about. But that's how I approach next level.
(41:44):
Where can we be not in a year? No, I have to plan for that and think through that and execute on
that. And the same thing's true for three years and the same thing's true for five years to a
lesser degree of accuracy. But where can we be in 10 years, in 20 years, and 30 years? And that's
where I think you can really see the change. But most people aren't looking for that. They want the,
(42:04):
you know, the five-year time horizon at most, seven on the outside. And I think that's playing
the short game when really life is mostly, whether it's your marriage, your kids, or it's your health
and your nutrition, it's a long game exercise. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know,
there's a lot of human behavior issues to deal with that are traditions and culture, right? These
(42:30):
are set early in our lives, you know, and there is that foundation. Any change from that, it's
easier to set the first foundation than to change it because you have to read that and re-establish.
So that combination is going to make it take a while in and of itself, unless we were starting
(42:50):
earlier with a different way of thinking about health and wellness, broadly speaking, through
the early years of childhood development. You know, even if you thought about, we used to,
years ago, there was this like, you know, the president's test that you could do in school.
Yeah. Now this stuff isn't done today like it was, you know, the, so we're going to have to
(43:16):
rebuild a lot while we're doing this repair in flight, which is what you're doing. There's a
rebuild and then when those two start to come co-terminus, then massive shift will happen,
but that's a 20 year path because you have to start with people early and late. So yeah, I
think it's really Joe, it's a generational one. It is completely. And that's, you know,
(43:41):
we all joke about millennials and Gen Z and Gen Alpha and, you know, no cap and, you know,
Riz and all this funny stuff, but the awareness that Gen Z and Gen Alpha have is exponential
compared to my millennial, right? Gen X self. And that's a good thing. We have other things to work
(44:03):
on, but the awareness of the heaviness of our footprint, the thoughtfulness with which we,
how we sleep, how we eat, how we drive or not, you know, like, man, that's exciting. Cause you know
what, 1992, we weren't thinking about that. Almost no one was. I'm sure there was one guy or gal who
(44:28):
was saying that in 92. I'm being cheeky. I know there were many that were fighting the fight
far before the nineties, but the point is, is that it's starting to be mainstream to think beyond
the immediate space that we occupy. And that's how we get where we need to go. Cause once we realize,
once all of us, myself included, once we really realize that we're all connected on this planet,
(44:53):
it's really tough to point the finger at somebody who's been in the same position
for a long time. It's really tough to point the finger at somebody else and say it's,
it's their problem. It's not mine. Yeah, I agree. And the best thing you get going on is like,
have some curiosity, right? You know, go check something out. You know, the cute thing about
your next level burger on Evans street over near DU here in Denver is you see it, it looks like a
(45:20):
two and scream, Oh my God, you're making these big choices as you walk into the door. It actually
just is appealing on its own, you know, next to, I think there's a bird call next to it right next
door that I'm not sure I would go in. Well, I wouldn't of course, but, uh, so I think that
(45:42):
that's all part of the theme though, is that this shouldn't become something that's hard for us.
Right. Yeah. It should be, we should try and focus on how we make it easier. And that would be,
you know, if any of us are inclined to look at, we would love your business to be great, but like
bring someone there, like entertain them in, you know, take them to a next level burger or a veggie
(46:06):
grill and say, Hey, let's go try it. Like, this is what we can learn from. And so it doesn't become,
um, you know, even treat someone, right? Say, Hey, I'll, I'll cover this one just so you can
have this wonderful experience. And I think that leadership is available to all of us on every
level. The same thing, you know, Hey, Matt, let's go for a run tomorrow morning or a hike or a walk,
(46:30):
or let's get outside or, you know, any of us who are already sort of there. And so, you know,
as you think about your community and the effect, what else do you think about as you, you know,
take this business to the next level, having some of that happen as well?
So the answer to that is really something that it's evolved a lot as a process, but it's been with
(46:54):
us from the beginning. And that is in our communities, letting those roots grow deep and wide.
And that has to do with connecting with schools and nonprofits and universities and neighborhood
organizations, because, and this is something that Chick-fil-A has gotten really right. I mean,
(47:16):
there's a reason why they are successful. There are a number of reasons why they've been so successful,
but a big part of it is that they have connected with their communities wherever they are.
And the community has responded, um, with love and affection back. And we have gotten to this place
(47:37):
in capitalism, um, that I think we're backing out of the sort of 80s greed is good mentality,
kind of commoditized everything to maximize every transaction and to maximize, uh, the bottom line.
And look, you got to run your business well, and it's great to make money. I love making money.
(47:57):
But our triple bottom line is do good, have fun, make money in that order, not sacrifice the first
two to get to the third. And, and so, you know, when, when it's all said and done, I think coming
back to what business was supposed to represent, which is a community in a community, you represent
(48:18):
a service and, and it's about the connection with those in your community as you participate
in that service. And for us is this ancient practice of preparing food, inviting people into
our space and, and, and allowing them to experience what we have created to love it or hate it,
(48:41):
to like it, to not, but to experience it. And it's intimate and it's vulnerable. And,
and yet if you do it well, as we have seen around the world, when, when you do food, well,
people come alive and they get excited about it, whatever it happens to be, whether it's good for
the planet, bad for the planet, good for the person, bad for the person. There are a few things that
(49:06):
get people more excited, um, and more vehement than what they eat. Yeah.
Yeah. The connection, well, it's so integral to both who we are and how we live, grow up,
our cultures, our traditions. And if we have, any of us have had, I've been a chance to look
in the United States alone, we can go to multiple regions and there's different food and food to
(49:30):
that community. Um, yeah, I love the idea of community, uh, you know, responsibly, even,
you know, it's cute. Like run clubs are starting. Those are community activities.
You know, what we're doing, we're not all just having to have to go to a bar anymore. We're
starting to think that there are other ways of going on this journey that are better both for us
(49:52):
and the planet and for each other. Cause when we show up better, um, you know, it is a better
world. It is. And, and it's the antidote as we round out our time, it's the antidote antidote
to the problem of disconnectedness in the world because we're all inherently connected to each
other. And when we participate intentionally, again, living intentionally with being connected
(50:18):
to our families and our friends and our communities and our world, things just go better. Uh, and,
and that is as universal as anything can be. So understanding and acknowledging the connectedness,
working toward that and understanding that it always, and I mean, always takes a village.
(50:40):
Well, you know, on that we'll conclude for today, Matt, of course, you and I could talk forever.
I appreciate what you and your team are doing, uh, in all of our local communities. We wish you the
best luck and growing, making next level and veggie burger available to so, so many more people,
anyone on there listening, you go try it. You'll love it. Uh, and, um, Matt, we'll talk to you soon.
(51:03):
Thanks so much. You are so welcome, Joe. Thank you for having me on brother.
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. I have one of my favorite people on the podcast today.
(00:06):
We have a random meeting that happened in our early sort of relationship, but really the felt
like kindred spirits. Matt DeGroiter is the founder, CEO, the instigator for Next Level Burger.
We'll hear more about that over 10 years. Recently also pulled in Veggie Grill into the family,
(00:27):
really bringing an amazing alternative to some of the other forms of casual, sort of quick serve
kind of dining that's available. I think as we get to talk to Matt, you'll find out that he has a
mission of sort of helping people on a health and wellness path. It's not just about sort of labels,
(00:50):
but about better choices. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Thank you, Joe. I'm doing
fantastic. I'm doing fantastic. It does seem like just yesterday, you and I and our paths intersected
at our Denver Next Level Burger store just by the University of Denver campus. And time flies when
(01:11):
you're having fun. It was just right after the weekend. Yeah, it wasn't long thereafter,
which is now two and a half years ago. Wild. But when your obsessed time seems to move more quickly
too, I must confess. And I think I may be a little bit obsessed with what I get to do for a living.
(01:31):
Yeah. So tell everyone, tell a little bit about like, because your story is the story that I love,
right? Of course, which is I was something, I became something, and now I am an inspired person
here. Tell the audience a little bit about your background, how you found your way to where you
are today. Yeah, I appreciate the kind words and framing it that way. So yeah, what I always say
(01:54):
is I grew up on 100% not plant-based diet, right? An all-American diet that was chock full of animal
proteins and as much cheese as you could pour on a plate. And yeah, always a side of veggies,
but that was always the side. And I was very fortunate to grow up with a mother that cooked
(02:18):
everything from scratch. And so we didn't eat a lot of processed food, but we did eat a lot of animal
foods. And, you know, it's probably a reflection of my disposition in some ways. I never even
thought twice about it. In fact, I didn't even know a vegetarian until my wife decided to become a
(02:40):
vegetarian in 2008. So I was in my late 20s, the first time that I met a vegetarian, and that was
something that happened real time in our relationship. And so, you know, what I love about my story
is that it isn't about whether someone's vegan or plant-based, going back to the conversation
(03:04):
we were having before we hit go today. It's about helping educate people and then give them
something to do with that education. And I'm a good example of that, right? You know, at 27 years
old, if you'd asked me to eat a plant-based burger, I wouldn't have really understood what you were
saying. You'd have to explain it to me. And then I would have probably come back with something on
(03:26):
the lines of, well, that's not a burger, right? It's got to have beef or bison or something. I
mean, chicken wasn't manly enough for me to admit to eating at 27 years old. It had to have some
real testosterone to it. And yet here's this same guy, former Marine, you know, who ate easily 10
(03:48):
pounds of red meat a week into my late 20s. And I mean easily, I've done the math. That has now
spent the last 14 years on a mostly plant-based diet and the last 10 years I've been vegan.
Yep. And what has come out of that is that my whole family, my wife and I and our two kids,
(04:09):
now 13 and 17, are living a vegan lifestyle. And so no matter what you call that lifestyle,
it's one that is more compassionate. It's one that is far more sustainable. And I would argue,
it's much healthier for us as individuals and as a species collectively. And so the exciting thing
(04:35):
about the future is that the potential is almost limitless. And I think what we have been called
into in this very interesting period of time where we have the world at our fingertips, right? With
this little smartphone that most of us are carrying around. We've never had more access to the truth,
to information, and now it's up to us to actually do something with that. And so the intersection of
(05:02):
me becoming vegan and embracing this way of living life and building a business is now something that
we have been so very blessed to invite millions of people into participating alongside of us.
Some of whom are vegan, many of whom are vegan, but roughly half of our guests aren't. And we're
(05:23):
able to invite them into our space and they can eat healthily and sustainably and compassionately
and feel good about the decision that they're making. And you just never know when those
moments are going to be an inflection point for somebody else to start their journey. And
maybe that doesn't end up being vegan, but maybe it means that they eat 50% more plants. And you
(05:46):
know what? If the world shifts in a direction like that, we have a completely different world.
And the word he didn't throw in there, which we know really matters, and I
go to the next level probably more frequently than I should because I should probably cook sometimes.
But we support that. Taste matters, right? You're trying to move someone from something to another.
(06:12):
And you have with your menu and your approach brought good taste and a nutritional profile
that's better and a good experience. And so talk a little bit about the taste piece,
because I think that's what gets people coming back.
Yeah. And I think conversely, it's also what sends people away never to come back again.
(06:35):
And that was one of the downsides to this boom in vegan things that we saw from 2019 into 22
and early 23 is that you had this land grab for vegan anything. And you had a lot of really
mediocre products that led to a lot of experiences with folks that say, if that's vegan, I'm not
(06:58):
going to eat vegan. And so that moment passes. Whereas what we are delighted to be able to bring
to our guests is when they sit down for the first vegan meal of their life and go, oh my gosh, if
this was vegan, I could eat vegan every day. And for us, this all goes back to the beginning.
Now, when Sierra is my wife and our co-founder, our chief visionary officer, when she and I
(07:24):
decided to start Next Level Burger, America's first vegan burger joint, first plant-based burger
joint, what we called it for the first many years, it really was an outflow of a need for our
family. We want it to be plant-based. And that did exist. Veggie Girl was one of our haunts.
But there was no place in the whole wide world, I mean, the whole wide world, that you could go
(07:52):
get a plant-based meal made with organic and non-GMO ingredients, and certainly not one that
was accessible in communities across the country. And at the ripe age of 30, which seems laughably
young now at 42, and my wife at 28 or 29, we decided to start America's first vegan burger
(08:16):
joint. And what we said to ourselves with kids at six and not quite two was that we're only going
to put on this menu things that we would put on our dinner table at home in front of our own kids.
And so that is going to be a commitment to organic produce. And we're going to be able to
produce absolutely not when seasonally available to non-GMO ingredients, to the best in class
(08:42):
ingredients. And what that's translated into, next level burger, and now for Veggie Girl over
these past many months since our acquisition of Veggie Girl earlier this year, is that the food
is amazing because it's made out of amazing things. And it sounds like such a simple proposition,
but if you want to make an awesome apple pie, you don't go by the bottom of the barrel,
(09:06):
literally apples and the cheapest sugar and so on and so on. And the most enriched, most bleached
wheat. No, you get organic wheat and some phenomenal organic apples. And guess what? As long as you
are pretty good at following directions, at the end of that, you're going to have something
(09:28):
delicious that is going to make the Marie calendar pie you buy in the freezer aisle at Safeway pale
in comparison. And that's the experience difference for us at Next Level. It is top shelf. It is
principled and it is delicious. And when someone can feel good about something that tastes so good,
(09:53):
you have that positive reinforcement that has a tendency to keep them coming back. Yeah. And you've
delivered a price point also that is very approachable for pretty much anyone who wants to
eat in your restaurants. And so that's got to be a bit of a challenge too, because you get good
(10:15):
quality, organic, everyone always says too expensive. Yeah. And do it. You guys are not at a
hyper scale like McDonald's Burger King. You're getting a little scale, but still that's hard.
How are you making that work? Well, yeah, we now have 25 stores coast to coast. And so at this
(10:36):
point, our supply chain has really started to cook when it comes to the economies of scale.
But for us, again, we come back to principles. And this did not happen overnight. This is an
evolution. But for us, the principles that started the company still guide us to this day. We have
(10:57):
our creative commitments. And for us, when it comes to pricing our food, it's not black magic
or something that is, well, this feels like it should be this much or it feels like it should be
this much or it feels like it should be that much. We say, okay, what's an industry standard for
cost of goods? It's about 30%. So we need to price our menu to reflect a 30% thereabouts cost of
(11:22):
goods. And so we go through our menu and we price it accordingly. At the same time that we are
accounting for costing it out, it's top shelf everything. And that's where perception and
reality can run into each other. Sure. It is more expensive to eat organic. It is more expensive to
(11:42):
be more selective in anything, whether you're talking about cars you drive, shoes you wear,
clothes you put on your back or the food you ingest in your body. There's always a cost,
but it isn't an exponential cost. It isn't an exponential cost. And it is for most people,
a cost that can be absorbed with a degree of reasonability because let's be real.
(12:08):
I'm from Denver, Colorado. I grew up eating Chipotle. When I was in high school,
it cost me about five, six bucks to get a burrito. It now costs me 11 or $12 to get a burrito at
Chipotle. And yeah, I'm still eating Chipotle these many, many years later. It's gotten to
(12:28):
it's gotten expensive to eat almost anything. I think my father-in-law spends 15 bucks going
to McDonald's still these days for lunch. It's no longer the place you walk out and spend three or
four bucks and get it. So everything's expensive. And if everything's expensive, let's just be as
wise as we can about what we put on our bodies, because it is difficult to argue there are any
(12:51):
better investments to make than the ones we invest in ourselves from a health perspective,
the ones that we invest in ourselves from a societal perspective. And, you know, the fact of
the matter is climate change and going away, it's just becoming clearer and clearer that this is the
moment of humanity to get right. And this is our opportunity. And that's still number one way
(13:15):
we make the biggest difference is in climate change and is eating more plants. It can really
be that simple. Yeah. So good ingredients, good taste, and a good price. Yep. You're starting to
roll out, you get 50% of your people come are not vegan or plant based. People are eating your food,
(13:37):
which is great. And so you're going on this journey and you're rolling out stores. So it's
amazing. Probably think like I just opened one and now I got 25. So that's pretty fascinating.
You're starting to drive a bit of a dialogue into the food world now, right? You know, surely
there are industrial food companies that are far, far, far bigger. But what do you think is some of
(14:02):
the key part of the dialogue? Cause you said, you know, organic, non-GMO. But, you know, what about
this ultra processed dynamic that we're hearing more and more about, you know, where people are
saying that's just not good to eat that, but that's what's only available. You know, how are you
thinking? Is the food system starting to shift at all outside of the small window that you have? Are
(14:27):
we seeing things better happen soon? Now? Later? That's an interesting question. I like that
question. I think that there is no lack of noble causes to fight for in our world today, right?
I mean, the list is long, long, and there are so many people whose names you will never hear. You
(14:48):
won't see them in the news. They won't be the who to follow on Instagram, but that are sacrificing
blood, sweat and tears to push the world in the right direction. You know, Martin Luther King,
famous for saying that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
Yeah. I humbly add something to that line and that is, but you got to lean on it.
(15:13):
Mm hmm. Yeah. You got to lean on that arc. And so I think it's up to all of us, and this is something
I share with both my kids at 13 and 17, find where and how you can lean on that arc. And so in some
ways, I think we have come so far in such a short period of time. I mean, we're literally talking
(15:35):
about the human species eating differently than it ever has before. I mean, the very concept of
eating a vegan diet, vegetarian has been around a long time, but a vegan diet is practically brand
new. And there's a learning curve there. And this is something that I'm very mindful of with people
is that eating vegan is not a magic pill. It's something you have to do intelligently, just like
(16:00):
anything else in the world. But if you walk into Dallas, Texas, or walk into a restaurant in Dallas,
Texas, and you ask for something vegan, they know what you're talking about. 10 years ago, they would
have said, what did you just say? And I know that because I was in Texas about 10 years ago, 12 years
(16:21):
ago, and starting to share with people that I was vegan, or my wife was vegan, but she'd chicken was
usually something along the lines of the response. I was in Dallas a couple years ago for my nephew's
graduation and vegan options abound. Same thing with organic. Organic was something that I remember
(16:42):
when my mom started buying organic in 08. And I remember laughing at what a hippie was doing.
I remember laughing at what a hippie she was becoming, lovingly, of course. But now, organic
is something you can find in just about every city in this country, inclusive of a Dallas or a Houston,
(17:08):
Texas. In fact, in Dallas, now organic juice bars abound. So I pick on Dallas because it's where I
spent a lot of my life. And it's also where I started going vegan. So I went to the state capital
of the United States to stop eating steak. But the shift in the direction of more healthy, more
(17:33):
sustainable is happening. Now, I will also say that the status quo is doing everything it can to
protect itself because the center aisles of grocery stores are jam packed with big foods, ultra
processed this and ultra processed that. And they've been making money hand over fist for decades
(17:57):
feeding America food that was, I think, unintentionally bad for them. Maybe we moved into more intentionality,
but the excuse of ignorance is disappearing fast. It's now clear these ultra processed foods are
awful for us. And it's very clear that the combination of ultra processed animal foods are
(18:18):
even worse for us because you magnify some of the negative aspects of an animal based diet when you
make these things ultra processed, hot dogs, for example. And so I think the world's waking up,
Joe. It's encouraging. And look, I think you just said it with the Martin Luther King quote, you know,
(18:39):
the story arc might be long, but at least we're on the arc now, right? Yeah. But think about what 500
years ago looked like. Think about the fact that the Civil War was 160 years ago, that civil rights,
the fight that Martin Luther King and many others like John Lewis fought, that was 60 years ago.
There were still folks in Congress that were decrying gay marriage, whether you are for it or against it,
(19:06):
in the 90s. And here we are in the 2020s, marking a new course for our country and for our world.
And we're moving in the right direction. And it's never just steps forward. It's always steps forward,
then some back and then steps forward, then some back. But that's why it's so important for those
of us that have an opportunity to lean on that arc. And I would argue everybody does. And then it's
(19:32):
up to those that decide they're actually going to. Yeah. It was interesting on my early part of my
plant-based journey, I was organizing a dinner for a bunch of people. And so there's some plant-based
people and the people I was talking to, they said, what do those people eat? So to your point, you
know, we didn't know a lot. Now, at least we know. But the key, I think this is really important,
(19:57):
and we can then talk a little bit about why you went into it, combined with Veggie Grill.
If we don't acknowledge what the potential obstacles are, then we would expect a bigger fight.
So you've taken care of a price, taste, nutrition, availability. You're working on saying, I can't be
(20:20):
naive and just say the category is going to win because it's better. I have to win because I
understand the consumer and I want to give them actually the same, but better. Right? Great tasting,
good price available, and it's healthier. That's a pretty darn good value proposition. So
(20:40):
it is. And that thread that you're pulling on, I'll pull on with you. You got to get to the point
where you're demonstrably better. And the question isn't why would I eat plant-based? It's why
wouldn't I? Yeah, right. And sometimes people ask, what are your reasons? And we can all have
whatever the reasons, but in some way, the reason isn't just animals or plants. It's actually,
(21:08):
I want to live the best life I can live. That's really what our intention needs to be. And that
is this combination of nutrition is really important, but so many other parts of our lives
are important. When we build a community of people who are making better choices, then we have role
models who we can follow and then they'll make better choices. And then-
(21:31):
Yeah. You mentioned this early. It's living lives of intentionality across the board, how we love
our family, our friends, how and what we consume when it comes to nutrition for ourselves.
The decisions that we make need to be decisions with intentionality, because if they're not,
(21:53):
the default decisions are rarely, if ever, going to be best for us. The easy path is rarely the
best one. In fact, it's usually diametrically opposed. And we need to, in our business,
and I would argue in many other businesses across the country, we need to make it easier
(22:13):
for people to choose the better path. And yet, in some ways, of course, this is always the case.
When you're on the right side of history, it's an uphill climb. You've got other things pushing
against you. If you want your kids to spend less time on screens, don't give them one of these.
We have an epidemic of screen time abuse and addiction to smartphones. Same thing with energy
(22:38):
drinks and so on and so forth. But tell my 17-year-old not to drink energy drinks. Good luck.
But you know what he can do? He can drink an organic herbal mate from Guayaquil, as opposed to
a Monster, 180 milligrams of caffeine that's actually made out of something that looks like
food and has some level of quality to it compared to a Monster or a Red Bull. And so you just,
(23:06):
you can't ask people to walk around in some guru monk type place and expect for more than
one out of a thousand to do that. But if you say, hey, here's an energy drink that's made out of
good stuff, that's not going to give you the same sort of crash and that you can find in gas stations
across the country, awesome story. Same thing with whether it's a next level burger or veggie
(23:32):
grilled by next level. If you're in one of our 25 places that we now operate restaurants, you don't
have to say, gosh, I want a great burger, but I know that's not good for me. I don't feel good in
the next couple of days after having a traditional burger. Or I'm thinking about my kids that are
graduating from high school or college or my grandkids. And I'm thinking about the world I'm
(23:54):
leaving behind me. I mean, half the beef consumption in this country is by white males over the age of
50. Half. Hey, it's Nathan Crane, founder of Plant Powered Athlete. And I want to thank you for tuning
into the Plant Powered Athlete podcast. And as a special thank you, I want to give you a 10% discount
code on our Plant Powered Protein scientifically formulated, super clean, organic, high quality
(24:18):
Plant Powered Protein designed with health and performance and longevity in mind with three super
high quality adaptogens that have been shown to help improve energy, increase focus, endurance,
speed up recovery and help your body thrive. So the 10% discount code, you can use the word podcast
(24:39):
at checkout and you can get Plant Powered Protein at our website at plantpoweredathlete.com.
Thanks again for tuning in. So when you're having that moment of reflection and you've got a great
option like Next Level Burger, and I can brag on it shamelessly because it's our teams that make
it happen, right? We're just here to support our teams. You can walk in and have a great experience,
(25:05):
feel good about your grandkids, feel good about your daughter who's getting married. You can feel
good about the world that you're helping leave behind with every small and great decision that
you make. And that's what we've got to do. That's what we've got to see as a transition. And Tesla
gets picked on a lot, but they did this in the EV space. They made really good cars. And so it wasn't
(25:26):
that you had to drive around in something that got from zero to 60 in 15 seconds. You could feel good
and look good and get a great experience. I won't talk about Cybertruck because I love to make fun
of those. But when the Model S came out, people were blown away. Yeah, you can always make better
choices. So then Next Level was your vision and your wife's vision. So you guys created that
(25:53):
exactly the way you wanted. It's been beautiful. Thanks for doing that. So then you have this veggie
grill out there, which wasn't necessarily your vision. What was it that drove you to say,
hey, I think it's better if we start to combine some of these entities. And how is that coming
together and how do they evolve together into the future? Well, okay. So there are two answers to
(26:20):
that. One is a little cheeky and a little bit of insight into me. And the other one is the more
logical sequence one. The first one, it's a little more fun, is that Veggie Girl is our biggest
competitor. And from the very beginning, I wanted to be bigger than Veggie Girl, right? Because I'm
actually competitive. And that may be driven by ego. So forgive me. But I wanted to be the biggest
(26:45):
in the space and the best. And again, probably some ego reflected there because I'm just fiercely
competitive, whether it's badminton or a board game, something silly or business. The second piece
is that we got to this weird place in the Coronaverse, as Neil deGrasse Tyson called the
(27:09):
period of time with COVID-19, where it got pretty much prohibitively expensive to build restaurants.
I mean, I'm talking 50% or more cost increases that happened just overnight. And in some cases,
a lot more labor, materials. I mean, we built restaurants to the whole thing. I mean, it was
(27:32):
just crazy, absolutely crazy. And there's this moment where this arbitrage opportunity came to
bear, where it actually was arguably a better bet to buy restaurants than to build restaurants.
And so we basically, we continued to build restaurants, but we started looking for
(27:55):
acquisition opportunities. And that is what led us to Veggie Grill because, you know,
so a little bit of a play out of an old book, even going back to John D. Rockefeller's consolidation
of oil refineries in the Gilded Age, we said, let's start with our biggest competitor.
(28:18):
And that's what we did. And what we found was a company that was heading in the wrong direction.
I'll put that very generally and very politely. That had unbelievably amazing people working for
it, that deserved an opportunity to do it right, who deserved an opportunity to be
(28:43):
taken care of. And communities that had come to rely on Veggie Grill for plant-based food,
that deserved better. They deserved something. It wasn't just looking back to the golden era
of Veggie Grill in 2007 to 2012, 13, because there were some organic things on the menu.
(29:09):
There were higher quality cleaner ingredients. And of course, it's always been vegan. And a big shout
out to TK Pillen and his co-founders. They always stuck to those guns. And that's something that I
really respect. But we can do better. You know, we can always do better. No matter how good a dad
(29:29):
you are, you can be a better dad. So keep leaning on that. No matter how good a human are, you can
be a better human. So let's keep leaning on that.
And so what we decided is that we needed to take good care of these team members. We needed to set
them up for success with the right kind of leadership, the right ingredients. So within
weeks post-acquisition, we rolled out all organic produce. They said it couldn't be done. We did it
(29:52):
in a few short weeks. And made sure that when it came to the way that we approached running our
restaurant business, it's not the customer is always right. It's we've got our teams back and we
start there. And then we work hours. And that comes back to the reflection I have within the
first six months of starting Next Level Burger. Because both Sierra and I started as managers
(30:17):
in our company. Because I didn't want to be the guy that used to wear a suit that, you know,
was like, hey, will you run this restaurant for me? I think it's a great idea. I put on the
trucker hat and the t-shirt and I did the
that for years and years. Probably did it too long, if I'm being honest. And so applying all
(30:39):
those lessons to Veggie Girl allowed us to not just turn it around, but to take it to a level
that it's never been before. And that is, again, it's not a testament to how awesome I am or Sierra
is. It is a testament to what taking care of your people can mean. And sticking to your guns of
(31:03):
principles can mean. And so now our cost of goods is razor sharp. Our labor costs are razor sharp.
Our teams are lit up and motivated. They have an opportunity to participate in the hard work and
the fruits of their labor. And I don't care if it's Veggie Girl by Next Level, Next Level Burger,
(31:26):
or another brand that we may or may not be working on acquiring. What I care about is people being
taken care of as our team. So that's living wages. I care about it always being plant-based or vegan,
always being organic produce. And we're just about there on getting rid of the last GMO
included ingredients that still exist in our supply chain as we shift over to organic wheat
(31:53):
for our burger buns and non-GMO fries on the way to national organic fries for both sides of the
brand fence. So, I mean, long story short, it's about impact and maximizing that.
How many locations are there at Veggie Girl?
So we have 10 Next Level burgers and we have 15 Veggie Girls with our next Veggie Girl by Next
(32:19):
Level ready to open up early this coming year. Do you see, you know, we have this interesting
concentration of population around the country, you know, 50% of Americans live within 50% of
the ocean, you know, so it's like very concentrated on the coasts. We've got the
(32:41):
middle of the country that's getting, you know, deserted in a sense.
Yeah, in some ways.
And some population locations. Are you focused on certain geographies in the beginning of this,
like going to places where it's more likely to succeed and then over time going to more places
generally? Absolutely. I mean, but also boldly. So going to Austin, Texas, a lot of people
(33:11):
and Veggie Girl included weren't willing to go to Austin, Texas because the demographics
didn't seem to support expansion there. And, you know, John Mackey, the co-founder of
Whole Foods and CEO for the first 42 years, replaced a couple years ago for the first time
(33:32):
as he stepped off and now is pursuing another very cool idea as his next act. But, you know,
he's someone I was able to glean quite a bit of wisdom from over these years that I have known
him. And geography is really important, but there's also that intuition piece that comes along with it.
(33:56):
And we've done a lot of things. In fact, we've done many things that have flown in the face of
the traditional restaurant playbook through a combination of intuition. And also, would you
rather be lucky or good? Well, I'd rather be both. We've worked very hard and we've been very fortunate
to have the right things happen at times and the right sequence for us to end up in the right place.
(34:22):
And so, you know, as it relates to this macro conversation that you're kind of speaking to,
it's a weird time. It's a weird time in American sort of history. I think people are going to look
back on this time period in 80 years, 100 years, and have a lot to say. But, you know, going back
(34:44):
to picking on Dallas in some ways and then bragging on Dallas now, whether it's Dallas, Texas, or, you
know, I mean, I grew up in such a way that I spent a lot of time in a lot of places that are not New
York City, Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, right? You know, and so this is not something
(35:10):
that I'm ignorant of. You know, I've eaten, you know, deep fried animal food in Biloxi, Mississippi.
You know, I have eaten seafood fresh out of St. Charles Bay in Louisiana, in the oil fields there.
I have, I don't want to quote, you know, Johnny Cash and say, I've been everywhere, man, but I have
(35:34):
been a few places. And I'll tell you what is true is that everybody everywhere wants to live a better
life. We just have to help these communities across the country choose better, whether it's, and have
choice, right? Have choice. And that, I think, is one of the greatest asks of the 21st century is
(35:58):
that, is it the free market, the capitalism, can capitalism answer that duty and responsibility
of giving choice that is a good choice to the people? Yeah. I think so completely understand and
agree. And if you have no access, then we're not going to have any change. So it's sort of a little
(36:20):
bit like, you know, for, and I do think that there will look, I mean, Eleven Madison has three star
Michelin as a vegan restaurant with a price point that most can't get to, but it's proven to be
proven that you can produce the most elegant, exquisite, amazing food without having meat or
(36:43):
animal-based products there. So we know that on both ends of this, right, we've proven this,
you've proven it on what's might say is the most accessible level. And then we got it all the way
to high level. And then part of the issue is accessibility. Like, you know, you can go to a
restaurant and you or I could probably hit this and say, there's literally only one item on a menu
(37:07):
of 43 items. It doesn't have some form of animal protein or cheese or something in there. And you're
like, does that mean that it's bad food? People won't eat it. And, you know, I've come to this
thing, which is that we're not educating people enough on that. If that's there and choice is
available, then more people will choose. But if there's no choice, then you come to the conclusion
(37:31):
that no one wants it. So do you think that we're, you know, because look, what you're doing helps
to create some momentum, right? Yeah. But do you think that we're starting to see a momentum shift
of other places providing some more options? Because the minute we start to see them,
(37:54):
eat them, they taste good, affordable, whatever, then we might do that more. How do you feel we
are in that cycle of movement? Often cited Gardner Hype Cycle. Yeah, right. And I think,
you know, the trough of disillusionment for those familiar with the Gardner Hype Cycle is where we
(38:15):
were for about an 18 month, 24 month period, depending on who you were in the space. We were
really quite protected against it. We felt it way later and it started to abate way sooner than some
that I know of. But we certainly were subject to that sort of trough of disillusionment to some
(38:36):
extent. But I think part of what helped offset it was the fact that so many of our guests are not
vegan. They just love our food. And so, you know, we were able to weather a really weird
back half of 22 and into 23, you know, really started to abate in 24 in a lot of ways.
(39:00):
But you saw a big pullback, a big pullback, you know, where you could get a vegan thing
on a menu, maybe it wasn't there anymore. And yet I think that's just all part of the process.
Yeah. You have excitement and this explosion of interest. And then you have, and not organically,
you know, big ag really pushed hard against this surge of interest in plant based food that is now
(39:29):
resurging, I think, but much more so. And the tough thing for our space that maybe people don't want
to hear, but I think it, and so I'm going to share it. We've got years of hard work ahead of us.
Like, this is not something that I think, I mean, I'd be delighted to wake up to a vegan world tomorrow,
(39:50):
but we're talking like a multi-decade thing that it's going to take, I think, for us to really get
to the point where we're talking about approaching anything near critical mass. Now, I hope I'm wrong
about that. I hope it happens sooner. And God knows climate change and human health and the rest of the
species that share this planet will be greatly relieved to find that we have kicked up the pace
(40:15):
of our journey toward a more just, a more compassionate, a more sustainable world.
But I think it's going to take a lot of time. And so if you're going to be in this space,
understanding that this isn't a, is it going to take six to 12 months? This is a, it's going to
take 10 or 20 or 30 years to really get where we want to go. I mean, people,
(40:36):
Whole Foods is such a good analogy. And I don't just bring them up because they're one of my
favorite companies of all time. And they've been our partner for years. I had a big crush on Whole
Foods from the time I started just thinking about eating better to when we started, they became our
largest investor back in 2017. But, you know, I think they have like a 4% market share or something
(40:58):
like that with 500 stores and, you know, $20 billion in revenue. Like people don't know how
big the food business in America is. It's a, the restaurant business space alone is $900 billion.
It's huge. It's huge. It's unfathomable. And that's not including the grocery space. So the
(41:21):
numbers are just so ginormous of what it takes to feed America. And yet Whole Foods built a
multi-billion dollar business on single digits of market share. So where is Whole Foods going to be
in 50 years? I don't know. It's exciting to think about. But that's how I approach next level.
(41:44):
Where can we be not in a year? No, I have to plan for that and think through that and execute on
that. And the same thing's true for three years and the same thing's true for five years to a
lesser degree of accuracy. But where can we be in 10 years, in 20 years, and 30 years? And that's
where I think you can really see the change. But most people aren't looking for that. They want the,
(42:04):
you know, the five-year time horizon at most, seven on the outside. And I think that's playing
the short game when really life is mostly, whether it's your marriage, your kids, or it's your health
and your nutrition, it's a long game exercise. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know,
there's a lot of human behavior issues to deal with that are traditions and culture, right? These
(42:30):
are set early in our lives, you know, and there is that foundation. Any change from that, it's
easier to set the first foundation than to change it because you have to read that and re-establish.
So that combination is going to make it take a while in and of itself, unless we were starting
(42:50):
earlier with a different way of thinking about health and wellness, broadly speaking, through
the early years of childhood development. You know, even if you thought about, we used to,
years ago, there was this like, you know, the president's test that you could do in school.
Yeah. Now this stuff isn't done today like it was, you know, the, so we're going to have to
(43:16):
rebuild a lot while we're doing this repair in flight, which is what you're doing. There's a
rebuild and then when those two start to come co-terminus, then massive shift will happen,
but that's a 20 year path because you have to start with people early and late. So yeah, I
think it's really Joe, it's a generational one. It is completely. And that's, you know,
(43:41):
we all joke about millennials and Gen Z and Gen Alpha and, you know, no cap and, you know,
Riz and all this funny stuff, but the awareness that Gen Z and Gen Alpha have is exponential
compared to my millennial, right? Gen X self. And that's a good thing. We have other things to work
(44:03):
on, but the awareness of the heaviness of our footprint, the thoughtfulness with which we,
how we sleep, how we eat, how we drive or not, you know, like, man, that's exciting. Cause you know
what, 1992, we weren't thinking about that. Almost no one was. I'm sure there was one guy or gal who
(44:28):
was saying that in 92. I'm being cheeky. I know there were many that were fighting the fight
far before the nineties, but the point is, is that it's starting to be mainstream to think beyond
the immediate space that we occupy. And that's how we get where we need to go. Cause once we realize,
once all of us, myself included, once we really realize that we're all connected on this planet,
(44:53):
it's really tough to point the finger at somebody who's been in the same position
for a long time. It's really tough to point the finger at somebody else and say it's,
it's their problem. It's not mine. Yeah, I agree. And the best thing you get going on is like,
have some curiosity, right? You know, go check something out. You know, the cute thing about
your next level burger on Evans street over near DU here in Denver is you see it, it looks like a
(45:20):
two and scream, Oh my God, you're making these big choices as you walk into the door. It actually
just is appealing on its own, you know, next to, I think there's a bird call next to it right next
door that I'm not sure I would go in. Well, I wouldn't of course, but, uh, so I think that
(45:42):
that's all part of the theme though, is that this shouldn't become something that's hard for us.
Right. Yeah. It should be, we should try and focus on how we make it easier. And that would be,
you know, if any of us are inclined to look at, we would love your business to be great, but like
bring someone there, like entertain them in, you know, take them to a next level burger or a veggie
(46:06):
grill and say, Hey, let's go try it. Like, this is what we can learn from. And so it doesn't become,
um, you know, even treat someone, right? Say, Hey, I'll, I'll cover this one just so you can
have this wonderful experience. And I think that leadership is available to all of us on every
level. The same thing, you know, Hey, Matt, let's go for a run tomorrow morning or a hike or a walk,
(46:30):
or let's get outside or, you know, any of us who are already sort of there. And so, you know,
as you think about your community and the effect, what else do you think about as you, you know,
take this business to the next level, having some of that happen as well?
So the answer to that is really something that it's evolved a lot as a process, but it's been with
(46:54):
us from the beginning. And that is in our communities, letting those roots grow deep and wide.
And that has to do with connecting with schools and nonprofits and universities and neighborhood
organizations, because, and this is something that Chick-fil-A has gotten really right. I mean,
(47:16):
there's a reason why they are successful. There are a number of reasons why they've been so successful,
but a big part of it is that they have connected with their communities wherever they are.
And the community has responded, um, with love and affection back. And we have gotten to this place
(47:37):
in capitalism, um, that I think we're backing out of the sort of 80s greed is good mentality,
kind of commoditized everything to maximize every transaction and to maximize, uh, the bottom line.
And look, you got to run your business well, and it's great to make money. I love making money.
(47:57):
But our triple bottom line is do good, have fun, make money in that order, not sacrifice the first
two to get to the third. And, and so, you know, when, when it's all said and done, I think coming
back to what business was supposed to represent, which is a community in a community, you represent
(48:18):
a service and, and it's about the connection with those in your community as you participate
in that service. And for us is this ancient practice of preparing food, inviting people into
our space and, and, and allowing them to experience what we have created to love it or hate it,
(48:41):
to like it, to not, but to experience it. And it's intimate and it's vulnerable. And,
and yet if you do it well, as we have seen around the world, when, when you do food, well,
people come alive and they get excited about it, whatever it happens to be, whether it's good for
the planet, bad for the planet, good for the person, bad for the person. There are a few things that
(49:06):
get people more excited, um, and more vehement than what they eat. Yeah.
Yeah. The connection, well, it's so integral to both who we are and how we live, grow up,
our cultures, our traditions. And if we have, any of us have had, I've been a chance to look
in the United States alone, we can go to multiple regions and there's different food and food to
(49:30):
that community. Um, yeah, I love the idea of community, uh, you know, responsibly, even,
you know, it's cute. Like run clubs are starting. Those are community activities.
You know, what we're doing, we're not all just having to have to go to a bar anymore. We're
starting to think that there are other ways of going on this journey that are better both for us
(49:52):
and the planet and for each other. Cause when we show up better, um, you know, it is a better
world. It is. And, and it's the antidote as we round out our time, it's the antidote antidote
to the problem of disconnectedness in the world because we're all inherently connected to each
other. And when we participate intentionally, again, living intentionally with being connected
(50:18):
to our families and our friends and our communities and our world, things just go better. Uh, and,
and that is as universal as anything can be. So understanding and acknowledging the connectedness,
working toward that and understanding that it always, and I mean, always takes a village.
(50:40):
Well, you know, on that we'll conclude for today, Matt, of course, you and I could talk forever.
I appreciate what you and your team are doing, uh, in all of our local communities. We wish you the
best luck and growing, making next level and veggie burger available to so, so many more people,
anyone on there listening, you go try it. You'll love it. Uh, and, um, Matt, we'll talk to you soon.
(51:03):
Thanks so much. You are so welcome, Joe. Thank you for having me on brother.
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