December 5, 2024 • 52 mins
Transform your endurance game with Tucker Grose, a competitive athlete and coach who’s mastered plant-based nutrition and consistency to achieve record-breaking marathon times
Explore how mindful training, nutrition strategies, and personal growth have shaped his philosophy and success.
From road marathons to trail ultras, Tucker shares practical insights and the power of community to help you crush your goals while staying aligned with your values.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast.
(00:03):
Joe Gagnon, co-host here.
Today we have a fun and exciting conversation for me, especially because I get to talk to Tucker Gross,
who's, you know, he's a little better than I am off trail, but you know, I think that we have a lot to talk about.
He's an endurance athlete himself.
He's a coach.
He's a competitive athlete, plant based.
(00:25):
He lives up in the Denver Boulder area.
So he lives in the mountains.
I think he even says you can find him out there wandering around every once in a while.
And we're just going to have a fun rambling conversation about movement, activity, racing, food, all these topics that we care about.
Tucker, welcome to the podcast.
(00:45):
Thanks so much for having me on, Joe.
Looking forward to the conversation.
And I know, Tucker, I know that you never know when these things come on, but November snow in Denver or the Denver area is not as much as happened this year.
That was quite a snowstorm last week.
Yeah, we just got record breaking snow last week, which, you know, is always interesting because people are still in the mindset of it's still warm out down here
(01:11):
and you get all sorts of car accidents on the highways.
So it's good to stay home, but also manage to get out and ski a little bit on the weekend to get the rust off.
And it looks like it's going to be a great season.
So I'm very excited for that.
That's fun. We like to hear that.
I guess some of the trails are going to get closed as they get muddy, but we'll find our way around.
(01:33):
But, you know, like as we think about, you know, sort of why we're talking today, you know, you have this intersection of the life choices that you've made, you know,
an outdoors person, plant based, you know, pushing in the endurance world.
You know, when did this become obvious to you?
Tell us a little bit about your backstory.
You know, like, how did you end up here?
(01:53):
Was it like, oh, my God, I knew I was going to be an endurance athlete plus a coach plus plant based or did this develop over time?
Yeah, it certainly developed over time.
It is really interesting to look back and reflect.
You know, I'm 34 years old, so certainly not super old, but not very young.
(02:15):
And I can I think I can look back and reflect on younger versions of myself.
And in many ways, I feel like I'm the same person, but in other ways, it's a very stark difference.
And I'm very happy and proud of like where I am now as a person.
And, yeah, so to take you back like 10 years, I was consuming, you know, standard American diet.
(02:39):
I, you know, drank a lot more.
I certainly wasn't an unhealthy person.
I was running marathons and was interested in ultra marathons and and all of that.
But I didn't take training nearly as seriously.
I would kind of find a training plan online and just print it out and check the boxes.
(03:01):
And so, yeah, over the next few years, I started to learn more and more about training theory and tried different experiments on myself.
And I started to run on trails more and more and really enjoyed it.
But really, a turning point for me was probably about five years ago when I did go plant based.
(03:21):
And my partner at the time was vegan and so just consuming a lot of plant based meals.
And a light bulb kind of switched for me that you could eat really tasty, nutritious meals and not harm animals.
And that just made a lot of sense to me.
And all around the same time, I quit a stressful job.
(03:44):
I started training more and then not too long after the pandemic hit.
And all of a sudden, there was no races.
And where a previous version of myself would have just stopped training, I ran more.
And so that that really made me realize that I loved running for running and didn't need to have a race on the calendar.
(04:11):
And ever since then, I've started coaching full time.
Started off with just kind of being a side hustle, coaching a few friends, and it's grown into being my full time job.
And yeah, I am now fully in on this on this run coaching dream and I'm pretty grateful to be where I am.
(04:36):
It's interesting that wind back a little bit on that switch to plant based because, you know,
I've had the same sort of experience just a little bit longer ago.
Started to do more activity found that the way I ate really affected what I was able to do.
And I didn't have such a connection to them until you start to lean into life a little more.
(04:58):
How did you feel initially? Because, you know, I think you made the best comment of all, which is there's some really amazing food that isn't meat.
It's a little bit like you can't eat stuff that tastes good.
Of course you can not only taste good, nutritious variety, there's way more plants, vegetables, fruits and everything than there would be anything else.
(05:20):
But I think some people don't understand how that might make them feel.
They have a lot of just preconceived notions.
So as you made that transition, how were you feeling?
Like less inflammation, more energy.
What was it?
Yeah, you know, I usually put the the asterisk that there were a lot of factors at play all at the same time.
(05:40):
The leaving a stressful job, the running more, the going plant based all happened in a very short span.
But I felt amazing. And I also, you know, once I started racing again, I PR in every race distance within a year of going plant based.
(06:01):
And so, yes, there are a lot of factors at play, but I do think that going plant based allowed me to do that.
And yeah, I felt way more energy.
I wasn't, you know, I didn't feel as bloated or have kind of stomach issues.
And so, yeah, it's been a really good change for me overall.
(06:24):
And I think it aligns a lot with my values and beliefs.
And so I think that even though I may not have realized it, I think there was some some guilt and just background unhappiness, maybe about the way that I was eating.
(06:45):
And so to shift towards something that really aligned with my beliefs helped me feel a lot better mentally and physically.
Yeah, that's great. And even if it's maybe just more meals, not just only meals, right?
I mean, it's always a combination of that.
And as you started to train more before you became a coach, what were you learning?
(07:10):
Like, what was some of the takeaways that you were finding during that period of time?
Great question. I would say that the experiences I had really shaped my philosophies as a coach to this day.
And while I have I have evolved as a coach over the last five years, I know that that a lot of those core principles were things that I learned in my own experimenting on myself.
(07:37):
And so things that not everybody is the same.
We know that. And what works for one person may not work for another.
And I do coach each athlete differently. But really, what what I learned was long term consistency is way more important than short term, like epic training.
(07:59):
And so over like a few years span where I wasn't doing anything crazy, you know, I wasn't running 80, 90 mile an hour mile weeks.
I was just consistently clicking off, you know, 50, 60 mile weeks and putting in some good workouts.
That consistency over many years allowed me to make some huge, huge improvements, particularly in like road marathons.
(08:27):
And so that was is one of the things that is really a core principle for me of just being consistent over the long, long term and looking at it as a long process
and not saying, OK, I want to be Q or I want to run my first 50 K in three months.
A lot of people that go for those short term goals and want to check that bucket list item off.
(08:52):
They may be able to go for a couple of years, but oftentimes they burn out or they get injured or things like that happen because they're just pushing too much.
So that's a big thing that I learned. Another thing that that is a big part of my approach to to training and coaching is just variety.
And so I'm a big believer in not just being strictly a marathoner or strictly a ultra marathoner or strictly a five K, 10 K runner.
(09:24):
Like I believe that mixing it up, running different distances, running on different surfaces, both in training and in racing is really, really valuable.
So I encourage the athletes I coach to to mix it up to.
Yeah, maybe we're our goal is to get faster in the road marathon.
But let's spend some time focusing on road five K, 10 K or let's go to the track and race the mile.
(09:48):
Let's go to the trails and do some slow, climbing 50 K to really work on our strength and our mental game.
So I think variety is is a big thing that I stress to my athletes as well.
And then also the last one, I would say, and this is pretty cliche in the running world, but just really emphasizing easy runs easy.
(10:11):
They way too many people get caught up in what pace are they running on those easy runs and they are pushing it too hard on those easy days.
And then they're not able to really capitalize and push themselves to the limit on those workout days.
And so they're not getting what they need to out of the workouts.
The easy runs aren't really optimized for aerobic development and they're getting too much stress on those easy days.
(10:37):
And then they often burn out, get injured, get sick, all those things.
So a lot of people are often surprised that.
Given the paces, I can run for a road marathon that I'm running nine to ten, sometimes even slower minute miles on my easy runs.
(10:59):
And but that works for me again, it's not something that works for everybody, but it is something that I really believe in.
And encourage all my athletes to to do is just really taking those easy run days really light.
Yeah, I think early in my learning, it was, you know, you run slow to get fast, which is slightly different in a way, but the same kind of idea, which is that it isn't good to always go hard.
(11:29):
I think also the other part of some of the choices that we're making are, you know,
if you're, say, an Olympic athlete and you get one moment in your career or two where you can hit a pinnacle,
then that's a different plan than the rest of us who are going to hopefully live a very long time as an active person.
(11:49):
If you're going to live your life as an active person, then you can't keep taking yourself out of the game because of injuries or because you're tired.
And so then, you know, I have evolved to and I do sometimes wish I was going faster than I used to, but I'm also out there every day.
And, you know, and I don't know, we can normalize a lot.
(12:11):
You know, I think I did five hundred plus days in a row at 10 miles a day and 10 miles became easy.
And so, you know, they weren't hard, but took time, but, you know, you think like, wow, if you're running a mile or two or three,
you never think that could come to be, but it can through your consistency point.
And that might actually be better in the long run for health and wellness.
(12:37):
If we're racing to just get on the podium, you know, maybe we should think about if that's the most important element.
But I'm sure you work with that a lot in your coaching.
When you know, just and comparatively, just so people hear it, what is your marathon time and what would be mile marks that you're running there so they could understand it?
(13:00):
Yeah, a minute pace is OK.
So I just ran the Chicago Marathon in October and I ran it in 233, which is like a five.
I have 50 pace, I think. So, yeah, pretty, pretty speedy.
I mean, I like to tell this story because I think it hopefully gives people a sense that if you are consistent and you put in,
(13:29):
you know, smart training over years and years, it it will result in progression.
But my first marathon I ran in 2014 and I ran it in 342.
And for the longest time, every time I ran a marathon, I progressed.
So I went down to three twenty three, three, nineteen, three, thirteen, three, oh eight, two fifty nine.
(13:58):
Finally broke that three hour barrier after, I think, seven tries.
Then saw some really big jumps from there. That three hour barrier was like this big thing.
And I really never thought, oh, yeah, well, I'll just keep progressing.
But I ran two forty nine soon after that.
Then at Boston, I ran two forty one and then went down to two thirty three.
(14:21):
And now I've kind of plateaued a little bit like I ran two thirty four last year in Berlin and then two thirty three again this year in Chicago.
So I'm hoping to break that two thirty barrier.
That's the that's the goal.
And I've taken a couple of cracks at it and come up a little bit short.
But, yeah, I mean, to have to have improved by 70 minutes in 10 years, it seems a little mind boggling.
(14:44):
And the fact that I'm like it still seems very unrealistic, but I'm closer to an Olympic trials qualifier than I am to like that BQ mark,
which was really the goal when this whole marathon thing started.
So it's been pretty cool to see how you can make those progressions.
I do think I should say, you know, super shoes sure don't hurt.
(15:09):
They probably give you a couple of minutes on on the road stuff.
But, yeah, it's been pretty cool to to experiment on myself and train in different ways and see a lot of continued progression.
It's just so that's amazing, and I think that we all like to hear the end of the story, because it's always from where we start.
It seems almost impossible. Right. You know, I mean, you know, for a four hour runner, I'll never be able to break three.
(15:36):
You know, it really actually depends on your training and what your commitment is to it.
So so that's great that you've been able to show that.
How has your sort of fueling changed over the years as you've gone through this both in your training, leading up during your racing, et cetera?
(15:57):
Well, like most people, I certainly wasn't taking in enough during my during my long runs, during my races.
I still probably am not.
I work with a sports nutritionist, Vic Johnson, and he's always working with me to take in take in more carbs per hour.
But, yeah, I think my first my first road marathon, which was three hours, 42 minutes or something like that.
(16:24):
And I think I took in two, maybe three gels.
And now I'm running over an hour faster and taking in five gels.
So a lot has changed, but it's really just about building up the tolerance and the gut to be able to process and utilize those those carbs.
And and yeah, it different people have different issues with taking in gels and whatnot.
(16:50):
But I do think that anyone can can get to the point where they're able to take in more throughout those those training sessions and throughout those races.
And it will help them stay energized throughout the race.
You know, for the longer stuff, it's it's been a little bit of a challenge, as as you well know, being an ultra marathoner, like the it becomes way more important the longer you're out there.
(17:16):
I could probably go out and do a road marathon tomorrow and not take in any fluids or any gels.
And like, yeah, maybe I would slow down a little bit in the last 10 K, but it probably wouldn't have that much of an impact on me.
If I were to go out and try to do that in an ultra marathon and.
(17:38):
One where I'm actually trying to push to the limit and see what I'm capable of, it would have some very, very negative consequences to that race and to my body.
So it's always a process of trying to figure out what works well.
I also like to if I can utilize what they're going to have on course, so I don't need to carry as much of my own fuel with me.
(18:06):
And it depends on the race of like how much support you could have and where the crew can can access you to give you your preferred gels or sports drink or things like that.
But yeah, I'm trying to get to the point where I'm taking in 80 to 100 grams of carbs an hour.
(18:26):
Right now, I typically get in like 50 to 65.
And that is where I'm at right now.
But I'm trying to nudge that up by taking in more and more throughout my training sessions.
And I use a variety of different different gels and sports drinks and things like that.
I've really been liking Never Second.
(18:46):
That's one that I've been using a lot lately.
I also use a bit of Science and Sport.
Huma is another one that I like because they're a little bit more real foodie.
They have chia seeds and other things that you can actually understand what's on the label, which is always nice.
But yeah, I like to experiment with different sports nutrition products and see what works and what doesn't.
(19:10):
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(19:33):
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(19:56):
Thanks again for tuning in.
You know, it's it is a fascinating part of what's happened in in sport across the board, you know, where we were somewhat primitive on how we ate, when we ate, what we ate.
And sometimes, you know, running on a track probably hasn't changed that much, but nutrition has changed significantly.
(20:19):
And and so it's been fun to see and listen to, of course, you know, we're probably all we like hearing about David Roche and his successes
and what he's pushing in terms of the amount of carbohydrates that one would take in over a race.
But it is a delicate balance, and I think that the key I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about your coaching here in a second is,
(20:42):
is that it's something that we have to evolve into just like everything else.
It's not like you can just one day start increasing significantly amount of calories.
Our system has to learn how to process that.
I often tell everyone, my two of my good buddies, you know, they're one owns the record running across the US,
one that's Pete Kostelnik and Dave Proctor owns the record running across Canada.
(21:06):
And they'll tell you every time it's an eating contest.
That's the what they're you know, because they're not running at six minute paces.
They just have to run, you know, 60, 70 miles a day.
The only way you do that every day is is fueling sneakers and everything else.
And so but they've trained to that.
Right. These guys, the other part and love for your thoughts on this here, Tucker, is.
(21:31):
When we go out and train, say, we're getting ready for a marathon,
we're doing our 10 or 15 mile run, we tend not to take any nutrition because we're like, yeah, we don't need it.
But in fact, those are the times we should be practicing and not forgetting that this is something we're also learning along the way.
And so how are you thinking about changing the training and nutrition in addition to just the training plan?
(21:57):
Yeah. I know personally, it's a work in progress for me.
And you can make any excuse you want in the book.
I don't need it. I didn't have any gels handy.
Gels are expensive, you know, whatever you want.
But if you want to train your gut and you want to improve your performance, you have to be doing it in training like you're going to do it on race day.
(22:24):
And so everybody is getting good at doing that on their long runs.
But I think a lot of people still struggle with like, oh, I could also be practicing this in some of those medium to longer training runs throughout the week or.
During or before a workout, just practicing more consistently throughout the week and not just saying, OK, yeah, I need to fuel my long run, but the rest is fine.
(22:53):
If you're going out for even an hour, take a gel practice with it.
Take a gel in at 30 minutes because that's what you're going to do probably on race days every 30 minutes.
That's a pretty standard approach.
Just practice that more and more. And that will help train the gut to be able to handle things.
Nobody wants to have to step off the race course and hit the porta potty.
(23:15):
So if you if you want to avoid that practice more in training.
Yeah, I know after hundreds of races and we all have had our struggles, you know,
but the one piece of advice I heard recently was that that, you know, the sort of the we'll call it the metabolic changes that go on once we start to move are interesting versus sitting.
(23:38):
And so sitting, we just get hungry at a point in time when we hit some lower glycogen level that's normalized.
But once we start moving, the blood starts flowing differently in our system.
Some of it moves out of the gut, which is to help with gastric digestion.
But if we start eating right when we start and continue, then we've continued that process working.
(24:01):
Right. It didn't turn off.
You know, pick it up eating two hours later because we're fine.
Then we're now trying to turn a system on that's off effectively.
And that was the best piece of advice I heard, which is, you know, and I used to do it in Ironman, you know, right before he got in the water, I always just took a gel.
Didn't even start racing. And I had already eaten breakfast, but he kept the process going.
(24:23):
And I think that when we get to the line in a marathon, there are very few people who are taking a gel.
But if you're going to be out there for a while, it's actually really good for you because it keeps the digestive process working.
And so then this is what we've learned over time. Still intellectually hard.
You know, the other piece of advice was, you know, when you're out running long distances, that's not when you're dieting.
(24:47):
OK, so let's just be really clear. Calorie restriction during that period of time is not the point of what we're doing.
That is all great advice. Very well said.
So now you're I think this is a fun and interesting transition.
You became a very competitive athlete yourself. You're doing the informal coaching.
(25:08):
Tell me a little bit about how your thinking evolved to making it less formal and into being a formal coach programs and plans.
And, you know, what you've learned through that process and how you go about coaching.
Yes, so it was it was a pretty natural evolution.
It also the timing of the covid pandemic kind of worked out a little bit in my favor in that other revenue streams dried up.
(25:40):
And so I went from it being, OK, this would be fun to share this knowledge that I've accrued over the years of learning about training theory and experimenting on myself, listening to podcasts, reading books.
It went from being able to just share that with some friends to all right, maybe this could be a thing that people would pay me for.
(26:08):
And so in the fall of twenty nineteen, I coached three friends.
I offered to coach them for free just to experiment and have them give me some feedback and train them for road marathons.
They all loved it and gave me some really valuable feedback.
I enjoyed it. I started to put myself out there on social media and.
(26:32):
Gradually, through word of mouth, picked up a couple of clients, a couple of paid clients, and it really probably wasn't until somebody reached out to me through Instagram and said, hey, would you coach me?
That I started to really think, oh, this could actually work.
Before that, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm really relying on friends and friends of friends and family and people that are just that I know in the running world.
(26:58):
But that is a limited circle. And once I started to realize that social media could allow me to reach a lot of people all over the country, all over the world, and and that they saw what I provided as being a valuable service,
that was really when when things started to shift for me.
And so throughout the year of twenty twenty, although I expected people wouldn't be interested in paying for coaching and there were no races to run, really.
(27:28):
So I thought that my services would not be valuable at that point.
It was quite the opposite. A lot of people were looking for structure, looking for accountability.
They didn't have that race to train for. And there were also a fair amount of people that that reached out who were getting into running as their gyms were closed and they didn't have that their typical exercise built into their lives.
(27:53):
And they wanted to to run and they wanted to do it in a safe and productive way.
And so my business grew to the point where when the pandemic started to slow down and other opportunities could have presented themselves, I said, you know what, I want to go all in on this thing and see if I can make it work.
(28:16):
And that's that's what has happened. So I think a lot of small business owners struggle with that initial phase of like leaving the safety net of their full time job and benefits and all of that.
And maybe they have this business idea, but they they are working 40, 50 hours a week on their day job and they can never really fully invest themselves in it.
(28:41):
So in a way, it worked out well for me that I was forced to just jump all in on this thing and I had all the time to to put into it.
And, yeah, haven't looked back really enjoying it. I also coach high school track and cross country.
I host group runs in Denver, have a paid group. We do workouts on Wednesday nights. So, yeah, it's pretty much all running all the time for me, but I love it.
(29:06):
That's great. And how are you factoring in, you know, the sort of all these themes that have been going on?
We had the run slow to get fast theme with the theme of nutrition.
Now, a strength theme is coming in to, you know, running and cycling and other activities.
How are you thinking about strength work, you know, whether it's anything from a wall sit to moving any kind of weights to build up other strength, not just being a runner.
(29:34):
Are you incorporating that in your training and in your coaching as well?
I don't force athletes to do anything.
I will encourage athletes to do certain strength routines, but, you know, runners tend to be a pretty kind of stubborn group in a way.
(30:00):
And we really like running, but pushing weights isn't always our preferred form of exercise.
So it depends on the athlete. Some athletes come to me and they're like, yes, I love doing strength.
I want to do more of it and then we'll do that. Others don't.
So the bare minimum for me is like five to ten minutes a day of some sort of strength work.
(30:22):
And a lot of a lot of what we focus on is core and like hip and glute strength.
And some like lower leg strength as well.
Those tend to be the areas that that are often underdeveloped and often lead to some sort of overcompensation for some sort of weakness or just general breakdown of of mechanics that leads to some sort of injury.
(30:50):
And so trying to strengthen up the core to add that stability, working on hip and glute strength so that we we ideally aren't having little hitches in our giddy up and having the hips and the knees move in ways that they don't like.
And so, yeah, we do a lot of core and glute and hip strength.
(31:12):
And that's kind of the the bare minimum. But, yeah, I do think that that strength training is is a kind of a hot thing right now.
And a lot more people are getting into that.
And I do think especially for a lot of the the longer marathon and up events, it is really helpful to have a stronger body.
(31:34):
You're going to be able to withstand that that pounding, repetitive pounding through many hours of being out there.
You're going to be able to handle that a lot better.
So then which brings up the topic of protein, of course.
So, you know, there's that sort of myth of if you're plant based, you can't ever get enough protein.
(31:58):
But then there's the idea also that we should be increasing our protein.
We should be not maximizing per se, but we probably couldn't eat too much protein in a day, in a sense, right, because we never get to the top end, you know, whether it's one gram per pound.
I do find it interesting that we often do the calculation on kilograms and no Americans know what a kilogram is.
(32:24):
So it's like, you know, have point eight per kilogram.
Like, I don't even know what a kilogram.
Anyway, for pounds, for people like Americans who use the pound system, you know, somewhere between at least a half and if not a full gram per pound.
But being plant based and thinking about that and then also back to how you're helping your athletes, because I'm sure not all of them are plant based.
(32:47):
Do you talk about protein much? How are you thinking about it?
How is that evolving in your thinking?
Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting topic for sure, because that is probably the first question that all plant based individuals get is like, well, how do you get your proteins?
You realize there's protein in like vegetables, too, right?
(33:11):
But yeah, it's just this misconception that has been really driven into our brains by our agriculture industry and all of that.
But we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.
So I would say for me, I, you know, I definitely am conscious of it.
(33:34):
And it's something that I that I do work to get in enough protein.
I think that the biggest challenge for me when I first went plant based was just getting enough calories plant animal based products are foods are are more calorically dense.
And so I lost like 10 pounds that I really didn't have to lose in that first few months of going plant based because I thought, well, I'll just eat the same amount, the same quantities as I was eating before.
(34:06):
And I really need to eat a lot more. So that is the really I see the only challenge of going plant based is you just need to make sure you're eating more food, which is great.
A lot of people in this country, a lot of people in this world eat more than they need.
So if you go plant based, it's a great way to not be taking in as many calories and be able to eat the same amount.
(34:30):
So so for me, that was more of the issue than the protein itself. But yeah, I make sure that I have protein pretty much in every meal.
So whether that's getting that from rice and beans or from tofu or or tempeh or seitan,
(34:54):
I consume a lot of nuts and peanut butter is a big part of my diet.
And so there's a lot of different ways that I get protein.
And then also having a protein smoothie or just a protein shake once a day that gets you a good 25 to 30 grams of protein right there.
(35:14):
And that's a pretty, pretty easy way to do it.
So for my athletes, it's definitely something that I that I will mention to them and encourage them to be mindful of,
making sure that we're taking in some protein, particularly post post workout, post long run.
Those sessions are most important. Just wanting to within that couple hours after after a harder session,
(35:40):
making sure we are getting protein in to to help in in that recovery and and rebuilding process.
Yeah, it's it's interesting that the protein shakes have gotten better in the plant based world.
Of course, we're connected to plant powered athlete and it's an interesting blend because it has more than just the core protein.
(36:05):
It has a really interesting nutrient profile to it.
And I found that when I actually probably all of us on the team here, we probably use more of it than anyone else.
But I start with four scoops in the morning and then I'm not hungry like the way I used to be.
(36:28):
And I'm getting 50 to 60 grams of protein and a really nice nutrient mineral.
It's almost like taking a supplement profile.
And I'm like, wow, now I'm almost to the point where I can't start the day without it because it's satiating, it's powering.
You know, and so I do think that some bit of experimenting with what works for you,
(36:50):
because sometimes you wouldn't know that I hadn't done that until I mean, I was taking them infrequently.
But then when I joined the team, I started doing it more regularly and like, oh, wow, it's a really interesting shift.
So I think all of it is about trying to be really thoughtful about what we're doing.
If we're going to want to maintain health and wellness and a good healthy profile, the coaching is important, our nutrition is important.
(37:16):
And then, of course, the rest of it, sleep, mindset, community.
Love to touch a little bit on those three topics, because they're the other sort of foundation elements.
Sleep is when everything really happens.
But then you're working on, you know, you said run club, which is a pretty interesting phenomenon.
(37:38):
That's, you know, there were always looked at New York Roadrunners Club's been around for what, 40 years.
But in a different way, right, these run clubs today are are fun.
They can hold different group being pulled in.
What do you see? You know, how does it feel to you, Tucker?
What's happening out there?
It's it's incredible to see what's going on.
(37:59):
I mean, you got a lot of people that are maybe not your traditional runners, like people that wouldn't wouldn't call themselves runners coming out to group runs,
because they they do they are craving that that social connection in that community.
And it's it's great to see.
I mean, you're getting a lot of people into into the sport of running through just wanting to to connect with other humans.
(38:26):
And and I think we know well from having shared miles with people that there is something very unique,
I think, about sharing miles with other people and then also just that the positive feelings that you get from post post run, you know,
(38:47):
call it the runner's high or whatever you want, but everyone is is often feeling very good after a group run,
just from that that shared time connecting with other people and moving our bodies in a good way.
So it's not a surprise to me that group runs are on the rise.
And it's it's certainly great, great to see.
(39:10):
I think they can really be helpful for people, especially throughout the time of the year when it's maybe harder to motivate to get out and run.
So right now it's getting dark here in Colorado before five p.m.
in the evenings and and there are some evenings where it's cold and people don't want to get out and run.
(39:32):
But I host the run at six p.m. every Monday night at Sloan's Lake.
And and it's not always the the biggest group run in Denver, for sure.
But we get people out to run and they are always appreciative of of the run existing because a lot of people maybe wouldn't get out and run if they if they were left to their own devices.
(39:56):
So I think that that can really help people with accountability and support, knowing that there's a group that that will help push them out the door when when they maybe don't have the motivation to do it on their own.
How many people are you getting on a weekly basis?
It varies, but it's usually like in the five to 10 people range.
(40:16):
So it's it's it's pretty small, but all good people and really enjoy enjoy running with them.
You know, there I was told this once a long time ago in relationships that if you want to have a conversation with someone, you should get in a car because when you have to sit next to each other, but not look at each other, you can have much more of a real conversation.
(40:40):
And I think the run club stuff is somewhat similar because you get to these conversations where you don't have to stare in anyone else's eyes and you can still have this really fun connection.
Everyone's trying to talk as best they can.
And it also makes us stay in that zone, too, right?
Because if we want to talk, you can't run zone for and talk.
That's for sure. So now it's a today explained as a podcast and they had an episode last week.
(41:06):
I think it was on the sort of the new rise in marathon running and what's the interest in the thesis that the author had was that the Gen Z generation is going out to bars less.
And drinking less and wanting to move more and run clubs are happening and they're available.
(41:28):
And then the run club is the gateway to the marathon.
And because you meet people who have done them and you like all of a sudden.
So it is sort of a fascinating sort of social shift that we're watching happening here.
Good one, I would say. It's fun to see.
It is. Yeah, it's really interesting to see.
(41:49):
I think over the last few years, we've probably had record breaking numbers at, I don't know, six marathons.
Like it seems like every major marathon, maybe not every because Boston's pretty small, but like Berlin broke the record.
New York's broken the record a couple of times.
Chicago broke the record. It's like it went from maybe being around fifty thousand to now like most majors are having fifty five thousand people, which is just wild.
(42:18):
And the qualifying standards are getting harder and harder because of the number of people that are qualifying.
They have to. So it's great to see.
It's I hope that there will continue to be conversations around how these majors can be more inclusive.
I think it's unfortunate that that some don't have, you know, don't have like a lottery.
(42:42):
I think at least giving people the hope of being able to qualify through a lottery is great.
Not having to run a time, not having to raise like ten thousand dollars for a charity.
I wish that every major had that as an option because the majors are a draw for people.
And I worry that that when people get discouraged by seeing these qualifying standards get harder and harder,
(43:07):
that they will be turned off and not want to to do those road marathons.
And there's plenty of great road marathons that are not the majors.
So if anyone's listening and is discouraged by Boston getting harder, New York and Chicago getting harder,
like go sign up for CIM or Houston or Indy just happened,
there's plenty of great, great marathons that don't require a qualifying standard to get into.
(43:32):
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
And it is interesting to see there are so many dimensions of that size and scale of a race and implications of that.
You know, going coupless at some point is going to be important from an environmental impact point of view
(43:53):
because 50,000 people consuming millions of cups for a day is not probably the greatest idea either.
You know, so there's some. Yeah, it's interesting.
You mentioned that. So there's a marathon here in Boulder called the Bowler-thon.
And so I volunteered there this year and they for the first time this year, they used reusable cups.
(44:23):
And I think that is something that will continue to grow.
There are challenges. Basically, these cups are taken and then allegedly washed and cleaned and then brought back.
We had a fair amount of cups that had dirt and like dead bugs in them.
(44:45):
So I think there's still some kinks they need to work out.
But I think you bring up a great point and it's something that really drives me nuts in.
In this running world, I think ultra trail stuff is maybe more in tune because the population is so into like preserving these beautiful places.
(45:09):
But roadrunners are to, you know, roadrunners want clean air and pristine places to run.
We all care about the environment, so we should be doing things.
I really like that. I think the London Marathon requires they charge you more if you're from overseas.
And allegedly that that difference is going to some sort of carbon offset.
(45:33):
So I like that races are looking into those sorts of things, but I think we could definitely do better.
Yeah, there's a company in Longmont, Colorado named Hydro Pak.
It's a hydration company and they sell silicon cups that we would all own our own.
The silicon cup is mushable enough to put in your pocket.
You wouldn't even know it was sort of there.
(45:55):
And they've tested in a few races a sort of hydration system that's like some PVC pipe with some little spouts.
So you don't even need just go with your cup. You fill up and then you go.
And so it is where they're working on sustainability in racing, which is great to see that there are some of the infrastructure is going to come to pass as well.
(46:20):
Because, you know, we all, you know, a lot of the theme of what you've gone through in your journey is, you know, better and less impact, you know, more health and wellness, you know, more consciousness about the world that we live in.
And it doesn't mean we're bad. It just means we can always be better. Right. Right.
(46:42):
And yeah, absolutely.
There there's yeah, I think just doing as little harm as possible to others, to the planet.
That's a big thing for me.
And it doesn't mean that doesn't mean that we're not that that everything I do is a positive on the environment.
(47:04):
I drive a lot. It's something that drives me nuts about Colorado is that you really it's a driving state.
You have to drive places. And so, yeah, I don't love that.
I still love to travel. I know that traveling is one of the ways that I cause a lot of harm to the environment.
But but I also know that life is for living.
(47:28):
And so I try to do as many positive things as I can while also still doing all the things I want to do.
And I think that's that's all any any of us can try to do is limit the harm we do and still live our best lives.
Yeah, so I couldn't agree more.
And I think that this is what we're trying to get to in all the messaging is about conscious choices.
(47:54):
As long as we sort of know what we're doing, we'll probably be better for us and better for the planet.
You know, that's so as you think about sort of the next few years,
you know, both in your personal athletics and then in training, what do you think is going to happen over the next few years?
(48:15):
How do you see things developing?
Well, I would say for me personally, I have some some big goals still.
I as I mentioned earlier, I really love racing different distances, different surfaces.
I I'm very close to like breaking 16 minutes in the 5K.
(48:41):
So I'd really like to do that. I'm close to that 230 mark in the marathon.
So that's still something I'm I'm eager to try to do.
I know that I'm getting older and maybe some of the short fast stuff is a little bit harder,
but I still love last night I was at a track meet and just the environment was so infectious and and I loved being being out there.
(49:06):
It makes me want to race on the track and do short, you know, mile races and things like that.
I plan to sign up for a hundred mile or for next year, which would be my hopefully my first hundred mile finish.
And so I'm eager to see and continue to explore like where my limitations are.
(49:31):
I think that that for me is really the the benefit of these ultra marathons is that unlike the road stuff,
marathons and shorter where it's really yes, it's mental, but it's a real physical challenge.
Ultras are still physical, but like, yeah, it's mostly mental.
(49:52):
It becomes a mental battle of just choosing to continue to move forward when you want to just stop
and and continually like pushing that boundary back and and finding where those deep dark places are in the mind
and hanging out there for a bit and coming out on the other side and doing all those sorts of things is is intriguing to me.
(50:18):
It certainly brings up some fear. I attempted 100 mile or a few years back and dropped out at mile 57.
So, yeah, there's there's some fear there of like going through a night going into those those dark places in the mind,
which aren't aren't fun to hang out in. And so, yeah, there's some fear there as far as going for that 100 mile or but I'm I'm eager to do it.
(50:46):
I think I've learned a lot and have improved a lot in how I approach things.
So I think I'm ready for it. And then as far as like coaching and all those sorts of things, I I have some some exciting things that I'm working on.
I want to offer a more professionalized kind of offering for people.
(51:09):
I think that there's an appetite in the the running world for for more support and the pro runners out there, they get so much.
You know, they have coaches, they have physical therapists, they have nutritionists, they have sports psychologists,
(51:32):
and they have that support team around them. And so many amateur runners are out there going it alone.
And coaching is something that I think has grown a lot.
A lot more people have coaches now than maybe 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
But I want to offer something that is more well-rounded and offers a like a full team of support to two athletes.
(51:53):
So I'm in the building stage of that.
But that's something I'm really excited about.
And that's really where I see my business going is offering that type of of a service for people where they get a lot of value
and they're getting that support in all different areas of their life and in their training to to help them reach their potential.
(52:17):
Well, we appreciate that, Tucker. If people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way for them to do that?
You can give me a follow on Instagram at Training with Tucker or you can shoot me an email.
Tuckergroscoaching at gmail.com.
And that's probably the best way to to reach out to me.
Well, thanks for spending some time with us.
(52:40):
Look forward to cheering you on on your journey.
And hopefully we'll see you out there on the road or the trail soon.
Thanks, Tucker.
Thanks, Joe.
Welcome to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast.
(00:03):
Joe Gagnon, co-host here.
Today we have a fun and exciting conversation for me, especially because I get to talk to Tucker Gross,
who's, you know, he's a little better than I am off trail, but you know, I think that we have a lot to talk about.
He's an endurance athlete himself.
He's a coach.
He's a competitive athlete, plant based.
(00:25):
He lives up in the Denver Boulder area.
So he lives in the mountains.
I think he even says you can find him out there wandering around every once in a while.
And we're just going to have a fun rambling conversation about movement, activity, racing, food, all these topics that we care about.
Tucker, welcome to the podcast.
(00:45):
Thanks so much for having me on, Joe.
Looking forward to the conversation.
And I know, Tucker, I know that you never know when these things come on, but November snow in Denver or the Denver area is not as much as happened this year.
That was quite a snowstorm last week.
Yeah, we just got record breaking snow last week, which, you know, is always interesting because people are still in the mindset of it's still warm out down here
(01:11):
and you get all sorts of car accidents on the highways.
So it's good to stay home, but also manage to get out and ski a little bit on the weekend to get the rust off.
And it looks like it's going to be a great season.
So I'm very excited for that.
That's fun. We like to hear that.
I guess some of the trails are going to get closed as they get muddy, but we'll find our way around.
(01:33):
But, you know, like as we think about, you know, sort of why we're talking today, you know, you have this intersection of the life choices that you've made, you know,
an outdoors person, plant based, you know, pushing in the endurance world.
You know, when did this become obvious to you?
Tell us a little bit about your backstory.
You know, like, how did you end up here?
(01:53):
Was it like, oh, my God, I knew I was going to be an endurance athlete plus a coach plus plant based or did this develop over time?
Yeah, it certainly developed over time.
It is really interesting to look back and reflect.
You know, I'm 34 years old, so certainly not super old, but not very young.
(02:15):
And I can I think I can look back and reflect on younger versions of myself.
And in many ways, I feel like I'm the same person, but in other ways, it's a very stark difference.
And I'm very happy and proud of like where I am now as a person.
And, yeah, so to take you back like 10 years, I was consuming, you know, standard American diet.
(02:39):
I, you know, drank a lot more.
I certainly wasn't an unhealthy person.
I was running marathons and was interested in ultra marathons and and all of that.
But I didn't take training nearly as seriously.
I would kind of find a training plan online and just print it out and check the boxes.
(03:01):
And so, yeah, over the next few years, I started to learn more and more about training theory and tried different experiments on myself.
And I started to run on trails more and more and really enjoyed it.
But really, a turning point for me was probably about five years ago when I did go plant based.
(03:21):
And my partner at the time was vegan and so just consuming a lot of plant based meals.
And a light bulb kind of switched for me that you could eat really tasty, nutritious meals and not harm animals.
And that just made a lot of sense to me.
And all around the same time, I quit a stressful job.
(03:44):
I started training more and then not too long after the pandemic hit.
And all of a sudden, there was no races.
And where a previous version of myself would have just stopped training, I ran more.
And so that that really made me realize that I loved running for running and didn't need to have a race on the calendar.
(04:11):
And ever since then, I've started coaching full time.
Started off with just kind of being a side hustle, coaching a few friends, and it's grown into being my full time job.
And yeah, I am now fully in on this on this run coaching dream and I'm pretty grateful to be where I am.
(04:36):
It's interesting that wind back a little bit on that switch to plant based because, you know,
I've had the same sort of experience just a little bit longer ago.
Started to do more activity found that the way I ate really affected what I was able to do.
And I didn't have such a connection to them until you start to lean into life a little more.
(04:58):
How did you feel initially? Because, you know, I think you made the best comment of all, which is there's some really amazing food that isn't meat.
It's a little bit like you can't eat stuff that tastes good.
Of course you can not only taste good, nutritious variety, there's way more plants, vegetables, fruits and everything than there would be anything else.
(05:20):
But I think some people don't understand how that might make them feel.
They have a lot of just preconceived notions.
So as you made that transition, how were you feeling?
Like less inflammation, more energy.
What was it?
Yeah, you know, I usually put the the asterisk that there were a lot of factors at play all at the same time.
(05:40):
The leaving a stressful job, the running more, the going plant based all happened in a very short span.
But I felt amazing. And I also, you know, once I started racing again, I PR in every race distance within a year of going plant based.
(06:01):
And so, yes, there are a lot of factors at play, but I do think that going plant based allowed me to do that.
And yeah, I felt way more energy.
I wasn't, you know, I didn't feel as bloated or have kind of stomach issues.
And so, yeah, it's been a really good change for me overall.
(06:24):
And I think it aligns a lot with my values and beliefs.
And so I think that even though I may not have realized it, I think there was some some guilt and just background unhappiness, maybe about the way that I was eating.
(06:45):
And so to shift towards something that really aligned with my beliefs helped me feel a lot better mentally and physically.
Yeah, that's great. And even if it's maybe just more meals, not just only meals, right?
I mean, it's always a combination of that.
And as you started to train more before you became a coach, what were you learning?
(07:10):
Like, what was some of the takeaways that you were finding during that period of time?
Great question. I would say that the experiences I had really shaped my philosophies as a coach to this day.
And while I have I have evolved as a coach over the last five years, I know that that a lot of those core principles were things that I learned in my own experimenting on myself.
(07:37):
And so things that not everybody is the same.
We know that. And what works for one person may not work for another.
And I do coach each athlete differently. But really, what what I learned was long term consistency is way more important than short term, like epic training.
(07:59):
And so over like a few years span where I wasn't doing anything crazy, you know, I wasn't running 80, 90 mile an hour mile weeks.
I was just consistently clicking off, you know, 50, 60 mile weeks and putting in some good workouts.
That consistency over many years allowed me to make some huge, huge improvements, particularly in like road marathons.
(08:27):
And so that was is one of the things that is really a core principle for me of just being consistent over the long, long term and looking at it as a long process
and not saying, OK, I want to be Q or I want to run my first 50 K in three months.
A lot of people that go for those short term goals and want to check that bucket list item off.
(08:52):
They may be able to go for a couple of years, but oftentimes they burn out or they get injured or things like that happen because they're just pushing too much.
So that's a big thing that I learned. Another thing that that is a big part of my approach to to training and coaching is just variety.
And so I'm a big believer in not just being strictly a marathoner or strictly a ultra marathoner or strictly a five K, 10 K runner.
(09:24):
Like I believe that mixing it up, running different distances, running on different surfaces, both in training and in racing is really, really valuable.
So I encourage the athletes I coach to to mix it up to.
Yeah, maybe we're our goal is to get faster in the road marathon.
But let's spend some time focusing on road five K, 10 K or let's go to the track and race the mile.
(09:48):
Let's go to the trails and do some slow, climbing 50 K to really work on our strength and our mental game.
So I think variety is is a big thing that I stress to my athletes as well.
And then also the last one, I would say, and this is pretty cliche in the running world, but just really emphasizing easy runs easy.
(10:11):
They way too many people get caught up in what pace are they running on those easy runs and they are pushing it too hard on those easy days.
And then they're not able to really capitalize and push themselves to the limit on those workout days.
And so they're not getting what they need to out of the workouts.
The easy runs aren't really optimized for aerobic development and they're getting too much stress on those easy days.
(10:37):
And then they often burn out, get injured, get sick, all those things.
So a lot of people are often surprised that.
Given the paces, I can run for a road marathon that I'm running nine to ten, sometimes even slower minute miles on my easy runs.
(10:59):
And but that works for me again, it's not something that works for everybody, but it is something that I really believe in.
And encourage all my athletes to to do is just really taking those easy run days really light.
Yeah, I think early in my learning, it was, you know, you run slow to get fast, which is slightly different in a way, but the same kind of idea, which is that it isn't good to always go hard.
(11:29):
I think also the other part of some of the choices that we're making are, you know,
if you're, say, an Olympic athlete and you get one moment in your career or two where you can hit a pinnacle,
then that's a different plan than the rest of us who are going to hopefully live a very long time as an active person.
(11:49):
If you're going to live your life as an active person, then you can't keep taking yourself out of the game because of injuries or because you're tired.
And so then, you know, I have evolved to and I do sometimes wish I was going faster than I used to, but I'm also out there every day.
And, you know, and I don't know, we can normalize a lot.
(12:11):
You know, I think I did five hundred plus days in a row at 10 miles a day and 10 miles became easy.
And so, you know, they weren't hard, but took time, but, you know, you think like, wow, if you're running a mile or two or three,
you never think that could come to be, but it can through your consistency point.
And that might actually be better in the long run for health and wellness.
(12:37):
If we're racing to just get on the podium, you know, maybe we should think about if that's the most important element.
But I'm sure you work with that a lot in your coaching.
When you know, just and comparatively, just so people hear it, what is your marathon time and what would be mile marks that you're running there so they could understand it?
(13:00):
Yeah, a minute pace is OK.
So I just ran the Chicago Marathon in October and I ran it in 233, which is like a five.
I have 50 pace, I think. So, yeah, pretty, pretty speedy.
I mean, I like to tell this story because I think it hopefully gives people a sense that if you are consistent and you put in,
(13:29):
you know, smart training over years and years, it it will result in progression.
But my first marathon I ran in 2014 and I ran it in 342.
And for the longest time, every time I ran a marathon, I progressed.
So I went down to three twenty three, three, nineteen, three, thirteen, three, oh eight, two fifty nine.
(13:58):
Finally broke that three hour barrier after, I think, seven tries.
Then saw some really big jumps from there. That three hour barrier was like this big thing.
And I really never thought, oh, yeah, well, I'll just keep progressing.
But I ran two forty nine soon after that.
Then at Boston, I ran two forty one and then went down to two thirty three.
(14:21):
And now I've kind of plateaued a little bit like I ran two thirty four last year in Berlin and then two thirty three again this year in Chicago.
So I'm hoping to break that two thirty barrier.
That's the that's the goal.
And I've taken a couple of cracks at it and come up a little bit short.
But, yeah, I mean, to have to have improved by 70 minutes in 10 years, it seems a little mind boggling.
(14:44):
And the fact that I'm like it still seems very unrealistic, but I'm closer to an Olympic trials qualifier than I am to like that BQ mark,
which was really the goal when this whole marathon thing started.
So it's been pretty cool to see how you can make those progressions.
I do think I should say, you know, super shoes sure don't hurt.
(15:09):
They probably give you a couple of minutes on on the road stuff.
But, yeah, it's been pretty cool to to experiment on myself and train in different ways and see a lot of continued progression.
It's just so that's amazing, and I think that we all like to hear the end of the story, because it's always from where we start.
It seems almost impossible. Right. You know, I mean, you know, for a four hour runner, I'll never be able to break three.
(15:36):
You know, it really actually depends on your training and what your commitment is to it.
So so that's great that you've been able to show that.
How has your sort of fueling changed over the years as you've gone through this both in your training, leading up during your racing, et cetera?
(15:57):
Well, like most people, I certainly wasn't taking in enough during my during my long runs, during my races.
I still probably am not.
I work with a sports nutritionist, Vic Johnson, and he's always working with me to take in take in more carbs per hour.
But, yeah, I think my first my first road marathon, which was three hours, 42 minutes or something like that.
(16:24):
And I think I took in two, maybe three gels.
And now I'm running over an hour faster and taking in five gels.
So a lot has changed, but it's really just about building up the tolerance and the gut to be able to process and utilize those those carbs.
And and yeah, it different people have different issues with taking in gels and whatnot.
(16:50):
But I do think that anyone can can get to the point where they're able to take in more throughout those those training sessions and throughout those races.
And it will help them stay energized throughout the race.
You know, for the longer stuff, it's it's been a little bit of a challenge, as as you well know, being an ultra marathoner, like the it becomes way more important the longer you're out there.
(17:16):
I could probably go out and do a road marathon tomorrow and not take in any fluids or any gels.
And like, yeah, maybe I would slow down a little bit in the last 10 K, but it probably wouldn't have that much of an impact on me.
If I were to go out and try to do that in an ultra marathon and.
(17:38):
One where I'm actually trying to push to the limit and see what I'm capable of, it would have some very, very negative consequences to that race and to my body.
So it's always a process of trying to figure out what works well.
I also like to if I can utilize what they're going to have on course, so I don't need to carry as much of my own fuel with me.
(18:06):
And it depends on the race of like how much support you could have and where the crew can can access you to give you your preferred gels or sports drink or things like that.
But yeah, I'm trying to get to the point where I'm taking in 80 to 100 grams of carbs an hour.
(18:26):
Right now, I typically get in like 50 to 65.
And that is where I'm at right now.
But I'm trying to nudge that up by taking in more and more throughout my training sessions.
And I use a variety of different different gels and sports drinks and things like that.
I've really been liking Never Second.
(18:46):
That's one that I've been using a lot lately.
I also use a bit of Science and Sport.
Huma is another one that I like because they're a little bit more real foodie.
They have chia seeds and other things that you can actually understand what's on the label, which is always nice.
But yeah, I like to experiment with different sports nutrition products and see what works and what doesn't.
(19:10):
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And I want to thank you for tuning in to the Plant Powered Athlete podcast.
And as a special thank you, I want to give you a 10% discount code on our Plant Powered Protein
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(19:33):
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(19:56):
Thanks again for tuning in.
You know, it's it is a fascinating part of what's happened in in sport across the board, you know, where we were somewhat primitive on how we ate, when we ate, what we ate.
And sometimes, you know, running on a track probably hasn't changed that much, but nutrition has changed significantly.
(20:19):
And and so it's been fun to see and listen to, of course, you know, we're probably all we like hearing about David Roche and his successes
and what he's pushing in terms of the amount of carbohydrates that one would take in over a race.
But it is a delicate balance, and I think that the key I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about your coaching here in a second is,
(20:42):
is that it's something that we have to evolve into just like everything else.
It's not like you can just one day start increasing significantly amount of calories.
Our system has to learn how to process that.
I often tell everyone, my two of my good buddies, you know, they're one owns the record running across the US,
one that's Pete Kostelnik and Dave Proctor owns the record running across Canada.
(21:06):
And they'll tell you every time it's an eating contest.
That's the what they're you know, because they're not running at six minute paces.
They just have to run, you know, 60, 70 miles a day.
The only way you do that every day is is fueling sneakers and everything else.
And so but they've trained to that.
Right. These guys, the other part and love for your thoughts on this here, Tucker, is.
(21:31):
When we go out and train, say, we're getting ready for a marathon,
we're doing our 10 or 15 mile run, we tend not to take any nutrition because we're like, yeah, we don't need it.
But in fact, those are the times we should be practicing and not forgetting that this is something we're also learning along the way.
And so how are you thinking about changing the training and nutrition in addition to just the training plan?
(21:57):
Yeah. I know personally, it's a work in progress for me.
And you can make any excuse you want in the book.
I don't need it. I didn't have any gels handy.
Gels are expensive, you know, whatever you want.
But if you want to train your gut and you want to improve your performance, you have to be doing it in training like you're going to do it on race day.
(22:24):
And so everybody is getting good at doing that on their long runs.
But I think a lot of people still struggle with like, oh, I could also be practicing this in some of those medium to longer training runs throughout the week or.
During or before a workout, just practicing more consistently throughout the week and not just saying, OK, yeah, I need to fuel my long run, but the rest is fine.
(22:53):
If you're going out for even an hour, take a gel practice with it.
Take a gel in at 30 minutes because that's what you're going to do probably on race days every 30 minutes.
That's a pretty standard approach.
Just practice that more and more. And that will help train the gut to be able to handle things.
Nobody wants to have to step off the race course and hit the porta potty.
(23:15):
So if you if you want to avoid that practice more in training.
Yeah, I know after hundreds of races and we all have had our struggles, you know,
but the one piece of advice I heard recently was that that, you know, the sort of the we'll call it the metabolic changes that go on once we start to move are interesting versus sitting.
(23:38):
And so sitting, we just get hungry at a point in time when we hit some lower glycogen level that's normalized.
But once we start moving, the blood starts flowing differently in our system.
Some of it moves out of the gut, which is to help with gastric digestion.
But if we start eating right when we start and continue, then we've continued that process working.
(24:01):
Right. It didn't turn off.
You know, pick it up eating two hours later because we're fine.
Then we're now trying to turn a system on that's off effectively.
And that was the best piece of advice I heard, which is, you know, and I used to do it in Ironman, you know, right before he got in the water, I always just took a gel.
Didn't even start racing. And I had already eaten breakfast, but he kept the process going.
(24:23):
And I think that when we get to the line in a marathon, there are very few people who are taking a gel.
But if you're going to be out there for a while, it's actually really good for you because it keeps the digestive process working.
And so then this is what we've learned over time. Still intellectually hard.
You know, the other piece of advice was, you know, when you're out running long distances, that's not when you're dieting.
(24:47):
OK, so let's just be really clear. Calorie restriction during that period of time is not the point of what we're doing.
That is all great advice. Very well said.
So now you're I think this is a fun and interesting transition.
You became a very competitive athlete yourself. You're doing the informal coaching.
(25:08):
Tell me a little bit about how your thinking evolved to making it less formal and into being a formal coach programs and plans.
And, you know, what you've learned through that process and how you go about coaching.
Yes, so it was it was a pretty natural evolution.
It also the timing of the covid pandemic kind of worked out a little bit in my favor in that other revenue streams dried up.
(25:40):
And so I went from it being, OK, this would be fun to share this knowledge that I've accrued over the years of learning about training theory and experimenting on myself, listening to podcasts, reading books.
It went from being able to just share that with some friends to all right, maybe this could be a thing that people would pay me for.
(26:08):
And so in the fall of twenty nineteen, I coached three friends.
I offered to coach them for free just to experiment and have them give me some feedback and train them for road marathons.
They all loved it and gave me some really valuable feedback.
I enjoyed it. I started to put myself out there on social media and.
(26:32):
Gradually, through word of mouth, picked up a couple of clients, a couple of paid clients, and it really probably wasn't until somebody reached out to me through Instagram and said, hey, would you coach me?
That I started to really think, oh, this could actually work.
Before that, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm really relying on friends and friends of friends and family and people that are just that I know in the running world.
(26:58):
But that is a limited circle. And once I started to realize that social media could allow me to reach a lot of people all over the country, all over the world, and and that they saw what I provided as being a valuable service,
that was really when when things started to shift for me.
And so throughout the year of twenty twenty, although I expected people wouldn't be interested in paying for coaching and there were no races to run, really.
(27:28):
So I thought that my services would not be valuable at that point.
It was quite the opposite. A lot of people were looking for structure, looking for accountability.
They didn't have that race to train for. And there were also a fair amount of people that that reached out who were getting into running as their gyms were closed and they didn't have that their typical exercise built into their lives.
(27:53):
And they wanted to to run and they wanted to do it in a safe and productive way.
And so my business grew to the point where when the pandemic started to slow down and other opportunities could have presented themselves, I said, you know what, I want to go all in on this thing and see if I can make it work.
(28:16):
And that's that's what has happened. So I think a lot of small business owners struggle with that initial phase of like leaving the safety net of their full time job and benefits and all of that.
And maybe they have this business idea, but they they are working 40, 50 hours a week on their day job and they can never really fully invest themselves in it.
(28:41):
So in a way, it worked out well for me that I was forced to just jump all in on this thing and I had all the time to to put into it.
And, yeah, haven't looked back really enjoying it. I also coach high school track and cross country.
I host group runs in Denver, have a paid group. We do workouts on Wednesday nights. So, yeah, it's pretty much all running all the time for me, but I love it.
(29:06):
That's great. And how are you factoring in, you know, the sort of all these themes that have been going on?
We had the run slow to get fast theme with the theme of nutrition.
Now, a strength theme is coming in to, you know, running and cycling and other activities.
How are you thinking about strength work, you know, whether it's anything from a wall sit to moving any kind of weights to build up other strength, not just being a runner.
(29:34):
Are you incorporating that in your training and in your coaching as well?
I don't force athletes to do anything.
I will encourage athletes to do certain strength routines, but, you know, runners tend to be a pretty kind of stubborn group in a way.
(30:00):
And we really like running, but pushing weights isn't always our preferred form of exercise.
So it depends on the athlete. Some athletes come to me and they're like, yes, I love doing strength.
I want to do more of it and then we'll do that. Others don't.
So the bare minimum for me is like five to ten minutes a day of some sort of strength work.
(30:22):
And a lot of a lot of what we focus on is core and like hip and glute strength.
And some like lower leg strength as well.
Those tend to be the areas that that are often underdeveloped and often lead to some sort of overcompensation for some sort of weakness or just general breakdown of of mechanics that leads to some sort of injury.
(30:50):
And so trying to strengthen up the core to add that stability, working on hip and glute strength so that we we ideally aren't having little hitches in our giddy up and having the hips and the knees move in ways that they don't like.
And so, yeah, we do a lot of core and glute and hip strength.
(31:12):
And that's kind of the the bare minimum. But, yeah, I do think that that strength training is is a kind of a hot thing right now.
And a lot more people are getting into that.
And I do think especially for a lot of the the longer marathon and up events, it is really helpful to have a stronger body.
(31:34):
You're going to be able to withstand that that pounding, repetitive pounding through many hours of being out there.
You're going to be able to handle that a lot better.
So then which brings up the topic of protein, of course.
So, you know, there's that sort of myth of if you're plant based, you can't ever get enough protein.
(31:58):
But then there's the idea also that we should be increasing our protein.
We should be not maximizing per se, but we probably couldn't eat too much protein in a day, in a sense, right, because we never get to the top end, you know, whether it's one gram per pound.
I do find it interesting that we often do the calculation on kilograms and no Americans know what a kilogram is.
(32:24):
So it's like, you know, have point eight per kilogram.
Like, I don't even know what a kilogram.
Anyway, for pounds, for people like Americans who use the pound system, you know, somewhere between at least a half and if not a full gram per pound.
But being plant based and thinking about that and then also back to how you're helping your athletes, because I'm sure not all of them are plant based.
(32:47):
Do you talk about protein much? How are you thinking about it?
How is that evolving in your thinking?
Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting topic for sure, because that is probably the first question that all plant based individuals get is like, well, how do you get your proteins?
You realize there's protein in like vegetables, too, right?
(33:11):
But yeah, it's just this misconception that has been really driven into our brains by our agriculture industry and all of that.
But we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.
So I would say for me, I, you know, I definitely am conscious of it.
(33:34):
And it's something that I that I do work to get in enough protein.
I think that the biggest challenge for me when I first went plant based was just getting enough calories plant animal based products are foods are are more calorically dense.
And so I lost like 10 pounds that I really didn't have to lose in that first few months of going plant based because I thought, well, I'll just eat the same amount, the same quantities as I was eating before.
(34:06):
And I really need to eat a lot more. So that is the really I see the only challenge of going plant based is you just need to make sure you're eating more food, which is great.
A lot of people in this country, a lot of people in this world eat more than they need.
So if you go plant based, it's a great way to not be taking in as many calories and be able to eat the same amount.
(34:30):
So so for me, that was more of the issue than the protein itself. But yeah, I make sure that I have protein pretty much in every meal.
So whether that's getting that from rice and beans or from tofu or or tempeh or seitan,
(34:54):
I consume a lot of nuts and peanut butter is a big part of my diet.
And so there's a lot of different ways that I get protein.
And then also having a protein smoothie or just a protein shake once a day that gets you a good 25 to 30 grams of protein right there.
(35:14):
And that's a pretty, pretty easy way to do it.
So for my athletes, it's definitely something that I that I will mention to them and encourage them to be mindful of,
making sure that we're taking in some protein, particularly post post workout, post long run.
Those sessions are most important. Just wanting to within that couple hours after after a harder session,
(35:40):
making sure we are getting protein in to to help in in that recovery and and rebuilding process.
Yeah, it's it's interesting that the protein shakes have gotten better in the plant based world.
Of course, we're connected to plant powered athlete and it's an interesting blend because it has more than just the core protein.
(36:05):
It has a really interesting nutrient profile to it.
And I found that when I actually probably all of us on the team here, we probably use more of it than anyone else.
But I start with four scoops in the morning and then I'm not hungry like the way I used to be.
(36:28):
And I'm getting 50 to 60 grams of protein and a really nice nutrient mineral.
It's almost like taking a supplement profile.
And I'm like, wow, now I'm almost to the point where I can't start the day without it because it's satiating, it's powering.
You know, and so I do think that some bit of experimenting with what works for you,
(36:50):
because sometimes you wouldn't know that I hadn't done that until I mean, I was taking them infrequently.
But then when I joined the team, I started doing it more regularly and like, oh, wow, it's a really interesting shift.
So I think all of it is about trying to be really thoughtful about what we're doing.
If we're going to want to maintain health and wellness and a good healthy profile, the coaching is important, our nutrition is important.
(37:16):
And then, of course, the rest of it, sleep, mindset, community.
Love to touch a little bit on those three topics, because they're the other sort of foundation elements.
Sleep is when everything really happens.
But then you're working on, you know, you said run club, which is a pretty interesting phenomenon.
(37:38):
That's, you know, there were always looked at New York Roadrunners Club's been around for what, 40 years.
But in a different way, right, these run clubs today are are fun.
They can hold different group being pulled in.
What do you see? You know, how does it feel to you, Tucker?
What's happening out there?
It's it's incredible to see what's going on.
(37:59):
I mean, you got a lot of people that are maybe not your traditional runners, like people that wouldn't wouldn't call themselves runners coming out to group runs,
because they they do they are craving that that social connection in that community.
And it's it's great to see.
I mean, you're getting a lot of people into into the sport of running through just wanting to to connect with other humans.
(38:26):
And and I think we know well from having shared miles with people that there is something very unique,
I think, about sharing miles with other people and then also just that the positive feelings that you get from post post run, you know,
(38:47):
call it the runner's high or whatever you want, but everyone is is often feeling very good after a group run,
just from that that shared time connecting with other people and moving our bodies in a good way.
So it's not a surprise to me that group runs are on the rise.
And it's it's certainly great, great to see.
(39:10):
I think they can really be helpful for people, especially throughout the time of the year when it's maybe harder to motivate to get out and run.
So right now it's getting dark here in Colorado before five p.m.
in the evenings and and there are some evenings where it's cold and people don't want to get out and run.
(39:32):
But I host the run at six p.m. every Monday night at Sloan's Lake.
And and it's not always the the biggest group run in Denver, for sure.
But we get people out to run and they are always appreciative of of the run existing because a lot of people maybe wouldn't get out and run if they if they were left to their own devices.
(39:56):
So I think that that can really help people with accountability and support, knowing that there's a group that that will help push them out the door when when they maybe don't have the motivation to do it on their own.
How many people are you getting on a weekly basis?
It varies, but it's usually like in the five to 10 people range.
(40:16):
So it's it's it's pretty small, but all good people and really enjoy enjoy running with them.
You know, there I was told this once a long time ago in relationships that if you want to have a conversation with someone, you should get in a car because when you have to sit next to each other, but not look at each other, you can have much more of a real conversation.
(40:40):
And I think the run club stuff is somewhat similar because you get to these conversations where you don't have to stare in anyone else's eyes and you can still have this really fun connection.
Everyone's trying to talk as best they can.
And it also makes us stay in that zone, too, right?
Because if we want to talk, you can't run zone for and talk.
That's for sure. So now it's a today explained as a podcast and they had an episode last week.
(41:06):
I think it was on the sort of the new rise in marathon running and what's the interest in the thesis that the author had was that the Gen Z generation is going out to bars less.
And drinking less and wanting to move more and run clubs are happening and they're available.
(41:28):
And then the run club is the gateway to the marathon.
And because you meet people who have done them and you like all of a sudden.
So it is sort of a fascinating sort of social shift that we're watching happening here.
Good one, I would say. It's fun to see.
It is. Yeah, it's really interesting to see.
(41:49):
I think over the last few years, we've probably had record breaking numbers at, I don't know, six marathons.
Like it seems like every major marathon, maybe not every because Boston's pretty small, but like Berlin broke the record.
New York's broken the record a couple of times.
Chicago broke the record. It's like it went from maybe being around fifty thousand to now like most majors are having fifty five thousand people, which is just wild.
(42:18):
And the qualifying standards are getting harder and harder because of the number of people that are qualifying.
They have to. So it's great to see.
It's I hope that there will continue to be conversations around how these majors can be more inclusive.
I think it's unfortunate that that some don't have, you know, don't have like a lottery.
(42:42):
I think at least giving people the hope of being able to qualify through a lottery is great.
Not having to run a time, not having to raise like ten thousand dollars for a charity.
I wish that every major had that as an option because the majors are a draw for people.
And I worry that that when people get discouraged by seeing these qualifying standards get harder and harder,
(43:07):
that they will be turned off and not want to to do those road marathons.
And there's plenty of great road marathons that are not the majors.
So if anyone's listening and is discouraged by Boston getting harder, New York and Chicago getting harder,
like go sign up for CIM or Houston or Indy just happened,
there's plenty of great, great marathons that don't require a qualifying standard to get into.
(43:32):
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
And it is interesting to see there are so many dimensions of that size and scale of a race and implications of that.
You know, going coupless at some point is going to be important from an environmental impact point of view
(43:53):
because 50,000 people consuming millions of cups for a day is not probably the greatest idea either.
You know, so there's some. Yeah, it's interesting.
You mentioned that. So there's a marathon here in Boulder called the Bowler-thon.
And so I volunteered there this year and they for the first time this year, they used reusable cups.
(44:23):
And I think that is something that will continue to grow.
There are challenges. Basically, these cups are taken and then allegedly washed and cleaned and then brought back.
We had a fair amount of cups that had dirt and like dead bugs in them.
(44:45):
So I think there's still some kinks they need to work out.
But I think you bring up a great point and it's something that really drives me nuts in.
In this running world, I think ultra trail stuff is maybe more in tune because the population is so into like preserving these beautiful places.
(45:09):
But roadrunners are to, you know, roadrunners want clean air and pristine places to run.
We all care about the environment, so we should be doing things.
I really like that. I think the London Marathon requires they charge you more if you're from overseas.
And allegedly that that difference is going to some sort of carbon offset.
(45:33):
So I like that races are looking into those sorts of things, but I think we could definitely do better.
Yeah, there's a company in Longmont, Colorado named Hydro Pak.
It's a hydration company and they sell silicon cups that we would all own our own.
The silicon cup is mushable enough to put in your pocket.
You wouldn't even know it was sort of there.
(45:55):
And they've tested in a few races a sort of hydration system that's like some PVC pipe with some little spouts.
So you don't even need just go with your cup. You fill up and then you go.
And so it is where they're working on sustainability in racing, which is great to see that there are some of the infrastructure is going to come to pass as well.
(46:20):
Because, you know, we all, you know, a lot of the theme of what you've gone through in your journey is, you know, better and less impact, you know, more health and wellness, you know, more consciousness about the world that we live in.
And it doesn't mean we're bad. It just means we can always be better. Right. Right.
(46:42):
And yeah, absolutely.
There there's yeah, I think just doing as little harm as possible to others, to the planet.
That's a big thing for me.
And it doesn't mean that doesn't mean that we're not that that everything I do is a positive on the environment.
(47:04):
I drive a lot. It's something that drives me nuts about Colorado is that you really it's a driving state.
You have to drive places. And so, yeah, I don't love that.
I still love to travel. I know that traveling is one of the ways that I cause a lot of harm to the environment.
But but I also know that life is for living.
(47:28):
And so I try to do as many positive things as I can while also still doing all the things I want to do.
And I think that's that's all any any of us can try to do is limit the harm we do and still live our best lives.
Yeah, so I couldn't agree more.
And I think that this is what we're trying to get to in all the messaging is about conscious choices.
(47:54):
As long as we sort of know what we're doing, we'll probably be better for us and better for the planet.
You know, that's so as you think about sort of the next few years,
you know, both in your personal athletics and then in training, what do you think is going to happen over the next few years?
(48:15):
How do you see things developing?
Well, I would say for me personally, I have some some big goals still.
I as I mentioned earlier, I really love racing different distances, different surfaces.
I I'm very close to like breaking 16 minutes in the 5K.
(48:41):
So I'd really like to do that. I'm close to that 230 mark in the marathon.
So that's still something I'm I'm eager to try to do.
I know that I'm getting older and maybe some of the short fast stuff is a little bit harder,
but I still love last night I was at a track meet and just the environment was so infectious and and I loved being being out there.
(49:06):
It makes me want to race on the track and do short, you know, mile races and things like that.
I plan to sign up for a hundred mile or for next year, which would be my hopefully my first hundred mile finish.
And so I'm eager to see and continue to explore like where my limitations are.
(49:31):
I think that that for me is really the the benefit of these ultra marathons is that unlike the road stuff,
marathons and shorter where it's really yes, it's mental, but it's a real physical challenge.
Ultras are still physical, but like, yeah, it's mostly mental.
(49:52):
It becomes a mental battle of just choosing to continue to move forward when you want to just stop
and and continually like pushing that boundary back and and finding where those deep dark places are in the mind
and hanging out there for a bit and coming out on the other side and doing all those sorts of things is is intriguing to me.
(50:18):
It certainly brings up some fear. I attempted 100 mile or a few years back and dropped out at mile 57.
So, yeah, there's there's some fear there of like going through a night going into those those dark places in the mind,
which aren't aren't fun to hang out in. And so, yeah, there's some fear there as far as going for that 100 mile or but I'm I'm eager to do it.
(50:46):
I think I've learned a lot and have improved a lot in how I approach things.
So I think I'm ready for it. And then as far as like coaching and all those sorts of things, I I have some some exciting things that I'm working on.
I want to offer a more professionalized kind of offering for people.
(51:09):
I think that there's an appetite in the the running world for for more support and the pro runners out there, they get so much.
You know, they have coaches, they have physical therapists, they have nutritionists, they have sports psychologists,
(51:32):
and they have that support team around them. And so many amateur runners are out there going it alone.
And coaching is something that I think has grown a lot.
A lot more people have coaches now than maybe 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
But I want to offer something that is more well-rounded and offers a like a full team of support to two athletes.
(51:53):
So I'm in the building stage of that.
But that's something I'm really excited about.
And that's really where I see my business going is offering that type of of a service for people where they get a lot of value
and they're getting that support in all different areas of their life and in their training to to help them reach their potential.
(52:17):
Well, we appreciate that, Tucker. If people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way for them to do that?
You can give me a follow on Instagram at Training with Tucker or you can shoot me an email.
Tuckergroscoaching at gmail.com.
And that's probably the best way to to reach out to me.
Well, thanks for spending some time with us.
(52:40):
Look forward to cheering you on on your journey.
And hopefully we'll see you out there on the road or the trail soon.
Thanks, Tucker.
Thanks, Joe.
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