110. Habitats, Invasive Species, and Possibly Antagonistic Bear Interactions w/ Ashley Bray

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is up?
Plant people it's time oncemore for the Plantthropology
Podcast, the show where we diveinto the lives and careers of
some very cool plant people tofigure out why they do what they
do and what keeps them comingback for more.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand your humble guide in this
journey through the greenest ofsciences and, as always, my
friends, I am so excited to bewith you today, y'all.
I got to talk to my friendagain today and I was so excited

(00:23):
to do it.
So I've been trying to planthis episode for a little while
and actually my guest was alsotrying to figure out how to get
on the show for a while.
We talked about that a littlebit in the episode, but I had
the pleasure of talking to myfriend, ashley Bray of the Get
Out Alive podcast today.
Now you may be thinking, ifyou're a listener of Get Out
Alive, no, ashley is a wildlifebiologist, she's an animal

(00:44):
person and, yes, that's true,but it turns out the lives of
animals and plants areinexorably intertwined and the
balance of one greatly affectsthe balance of the other.
So we talked about that a lottoday.
We talked about howdeforestation and changes in
plant communities causeencroachment by animals and
causes shifts in the populationof animals.

(01:06):
We talk about how plants serveas habitats for animals and how
animals help spread plantpopulations things like that.
We had a great conversationabout everything from
butterflies and insects to bearsand science communication and
trees and plants and all kindsof things.
It's wonderful, it's great,ashley's great, and I think

(01:26):
you're really going to enjoythis episode.
So, just up front, if you don'talready listen to the Get Out
Alive podcast, go do that.
Go subscribe right now and then, as soon as you're done
listening to this episode, golisten to Get Out Alive because
it's fantastic.
So, without any further delay,get yourselves ready for episode
110 of the PlanthropologyPodcast Habitats, Invasive

(01:47):
Species and PossiblyAntagonistic Bear.
Interactions with my dearfriend Ashley, I am so excited

(02:12):
to talk to you today.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm also so excited, vikram, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Thanks for putting up with my terribleness at
scheduling and doing all thatstuff and just like being cool,
because I wanted to have you onthe show for a long time and
then somehow it's now what mid2024.
And I'm like oh that's finally,it's time.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, you know it was a career goal for me to get on
this podcast.
I was like, how do I get on apodcast about plants as someone
who knows next to nothing aboutplants?
So thank you so much for havingme.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Oh yeah, no, it's gonna be great.
I'm so excited.
So I think probably a lot of mylisteners know who you are.
I think we probably share afair amount of audience I don't
know how much.
It's always hard to know that,but for those that don't, go
ahead and introduce yourself,tell us about you.
Where'd you grow up?
All the fun things.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, so my name is Ashley Bray.
I am a born and raised NewEnglander, currently in New
Hampshire, and I don't reallyhave like so in terms of my
background, I'm a wildlifebiologist for those that don't
know, and I don't have like adefining moment of like I'm
going to be a biologist becausethis thing happened to me.
I just like, when I was growingup, was like nope, this is what

(03:20):
I'm going to be.
I was the kid who, like, askedfor like an animal encyclopedia
for christmas and stuff.
I was a nerd and which, noshame in being a nerd, still am
and I just like was alwayswatching animal planet and
whenever an adult was like whatdo you want to do when you grow
up, I was like I want to be aconservationist, which no one
knew what that was.
Everyone was just like yo, youlike animals, you're going to be

(03:42):
a vet, which I did not want todo.
So I told everyone I was goingto be like Steve Irwin, so
that's kind of where I'm at.
I don't exactly, I'm not nearlyas cool as him, but I'm on my
path to that.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
See, that's so cool, though that, like you knew, like
this is what I'm going to do asa kid, this is what I'm going
to do.
You know, my son from time totime either wants to be a
firefighter or a ninja, or likea space alien, so I don't know
how the job applications workfor those.
But you know, one of thosethree things is maybe practical,

(04:16):
possible.
But just to know that, oh, Iwant to work with animals, I
want to teach people aboutanimals and go out and do
conservation, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, and it wasn't a linear path either.
Like I know well, if you'resomeone who wants to like get
into the wildlife field, thereis no set path.
So, like I initially, when Iwent to get my bachelor's degree
, I went to the University ofVermont and I originally went
for microbiology because I waslike I want to make money and
I'm good in a lab, so cool, butso cool.

(04:59):
But then chemistry happened tome and I was so bad at it so I
was like I can't keep doing thisbecause I needed like four
years of chemistry.
So I was like, okay, cool, I'mgoing to pivot to wildlife
biology because I know I lovethat.
I just know that I will nevermake a lot of money.
You have to fight for your lifein the wildlife biology field
and you are fighting for pennies.
And I've been lucky enough tohave some jobs where I'm like
man, it does not even feel likeI'm working.
There is a lot of privilege inbeing able to work those
lower-paying, sometimes seasonaljobs.
I'm lucky enough that I'm in aspot right now where I can bop

(05:21):
around to different low-payingjobs that are really fun, but it
is definitely not for everybody.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
So yeah, no, that that makes sense, and a lot of
fieldwork is like that, and youknow and listen, I understand
the struggle.
I'm a horticulturist and whenmed school was not going to be a
thing anymore, I was like, howabout plants?
My parents were like, okay, bigpivot.
But here we are and no, that'scool, though, and there's a lot

(05:48):
to be said for, like I don'tknow, getting to live your dream
, and like there's so much likejoy and satisfaction in that,
and I think that you do a goodjob of like wearing it on your
sleeve.
You seem like you love what youdo and it's like super
infectious and I think that'scool.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Thanks.
I feel like people feel thesame way about you too.
I mean, I think you said peoplehave gone to that university
just because they were like Iwant Vikram as a professor,
that's so cool it is.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
You know, it's funny because, like, we definitely
have people like transfer intoour major, like for sure, and
there was one person that waslike oh no, I, you know, I
started looking at the collegebecause of that and that's like
just the craziest thing.
It's just the craziest thing,but you know and that's one of
the cool things I guess iscommunicators and science
communicators that we get to dois like talk to a lot of people
and just be excited and happyabout what we do.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, I kind of similar, although maybe not so
similar.
I got a job last year and I wastalking to one of my new
coworkers about podcasts and Imentioned I usually don't talk
about like the fact that I alsodo podcasts, but I mentioned the
podcast and she was like, oh,what's it called?
I'll look it up.
And I mentioned the name of itand she was like, oh my God,

(07:00):
I've been listening to you forlike a year and me and my
husband listen to you togetherand I was like, oh, I've never
expected to meet somebody in thewild like that.
It was crazy.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well, the funny thing about that is like you'd
already had that Like she.
You were looking at this personand it doesn't like it doesn't
always click right away.
Right, you're out of context.
Yeah, that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
It was wild.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
That is really, really very cool.
So you know you're talkingabout how you have always wanted
to be in the field that you'rein, but like you spend a lot of
time outdoors, like you spend alot of time in nature, being
with nature Like, is thatsomething you grew up doing?
Were you always like campingand hiking?
Were you an outdoorsy kid?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
I, I am.
I walk a fine line betweenbeing an outdoorsy kid and also
loving video games and likesitting inside and reading.
Uh, like we were talking aboutbefore we recorded.
I live in new england.
It's not very nice here outsideall the time, so on days where
it is sunny, like today, I willlike we new englanders are like
if it is a sunny, we need to getout there and make it happen.

(08:03):
We need that vitamin D.
So I am happy to like kayak andstuff.
But as a kid, my grandma, myparents were kind of just like
yeah, go outside and play andwe'll see you around dinnertime
and don't get hit by a car.
And that was it.
So I did spend a lot of timeoutside, but like we didn't
really go camping much oranything.
And I do hunt, but I didn'treally start doing that till I

(08:23):
was in my 20s.
So but yeah, that was a long.
I don't know if I accuratelyanswered that question, but it
was a long-winded answer.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
I don't think so.
No, I think that's.
That's interesting because Iokay.
So I have a rant.
This just popped into my headso I'm just gonna throw it at.
I have to think about how tophrase this.
Okay, as a Noah Kahn fan, howaccurate of a picture does he
paint of life in New England?

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Oh my God, I am.
You know, I'm so happy youasked this.
I've been waiting to be aconsultant about Noah Kahn, who
I also just want to throw out.
I played rugby with his cousinin college, which was pretty
neat yeah.
And he was like an up-and-comingartist because I was in
burlington, vermont, where he'slike from.
Anyways, it's very accurate.
We're sad.
It is rainy and cloudy all thetime and when the leaves go away

(09:17):
it's.
I mean, I don't want to sayit's not beautiful when the
leaves go away, but like also itgets pretty depressing here
sometimes.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
That's so funny Very accurate, Because I love his
music and I listen to it all thetime and I'm like this can't be
like.
It is.
It's okay.
Okay, well, if it makes youfeel any better.
I grew up here on the prairie,in the middle of nowhere, like
literally we are six hours fromeverything, and like in the
middle of nowhere, and so, like,growing up, we would go, we'd

(09:48):
have to drive to go do nature,and that sounds weird.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
No, I get it.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
But like it's hot and it's windy and it's dry here so
we'd have to drive four or fivehours to the mountains or
something else to like gooutside.
So like I grew up outside butlike in the garden, if that
makes sense.
I grew up outside but like inthe garden, if that makes sense,
and so like not doing likenature stuff but still like
looking at bugs and looking atleaves and all those kinds of
things.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, now that you say that I'm like I don't know
why, I'm like forgetting mychildhood, but yeah, it was the
same thing.
So, like I grew up in a I mean,it was a town.
It wasn't like a city by anymeans, but we would have to
drive to get towards likemountains, and we were always
either an hour away frommountains or an hour away from
the beach, which is really agreat thing to have.
But yeah, we spent a lot oftime in the garden too, which is

(10:32):
funny because you became ahorticulturist and I was like I
still don't really know muchabout plants and I grew up in
the garden.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
So that was actually my next question.
That's a good segue because Iactually, as the years have gone
on, I've had more and more likenot plant people on the show,
and I kind of love it becauseyou know, as we get into this
episode a little bit more, whatwe're going to talk about is
relationships between plants andanimals and habitats and
ecosystems and all that.
So like you're not a plantperson no, Like you don't do

(11:03):
plants.
So like you're not a plantperson no, like you don't do
plants.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
You know I try my darndest having a garden every
year and I feel like everysingle season.
I'm like God, I have so manyquestions for Vicar.
I'm like when do I start theseplants?
I'm not good at plants, whichis I don't understand how it
happened Like.
I feel like as a biologist, Ishould inherently understand how
they work.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
And I don't, it's okay.
So that is such a good pointactually, because it there's,
there's so much of like breadthin biology that like
understanding one system, you'relike, oh yeah, no, I understand
biology.
And then you meet this weirdthing and you're just like
because, like, if you ask mequestions about like animal
biology I don't know, like Iknow a little bit, I know they
have like legs and stuff andfaces sometimes, sometimes, yeah

(11:50):
, sometimes, and I know aboutanimals insofar as they like
live in my house with me orinteract with plants, but that's
about it.
And so, like some of my animalbiologist friends will say
things to me, I'm like whatreally?
Like that's real, that's a realthing.
My wife studied wildlifescience in college, so it's
funny like going to the zoo,because I will literally walk

(12:13):
away and stare at trees oh myGod, I'm that guy, ashley Like
there could be a lion and I'mlike, look at this tree.
And she's just like you're theworst.
Why are we here?
Like let's go to a park, likeyou know, there's trees there.
But it's cool getting to seesome of these intersections,

(12:34):
which I think is like reallywhat we're going to get into
talking about, because thiscomes up a little bit, because
we had we're talking aboutecology and sort of
environmental sustainability inmy class right now and this is
such a cool time to record this,because we were just yesterday
in class talking about the sortof overall balance of an
ecosystem, so like, if plantpopulations are good, then the

(12:54):
sort of related animalpopulations can be good, and
then there's this ebb and flowand balance between plants and
carnivores and herbivores andeverything else.
So as all of these organismshave evolved, we have these
intricate close relationships.
So I wanted to have you on totalk about that and talk about
how do plants serve as animalhabitats?

(13:17):
and in ecosystems and how dochanges in plant populations
that we're seeing from climatechange and all kinds of things
like affect animals, which a lotof times get much better PR
than plants, and you know, Idon't know.
So I think that that's reallywhat I'd like to start diving
into.
So I know you said you did likea lot of research for this,
which I'm very impressed by,because I'm not good at that.

(13:39):
So let's talk about, like, somecool relationships between
plants and animals.
What examples do you have?

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, I have so many.
So the first one I think isreally obvious and, I think, one
that everyone is aware ofgiraffes and acacia trees.
Yeah.
So if you haven't seen agiraffe, take a moment, look it
up.
But it is the thing that hasfour legs, a long neck, lives in
Africa and they eat from acaciatrees, and so for.

(14:08):
Also, at any point, feel freeto stop me I deep dive in a lot
of weird ways.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
So Okay, I'm excited, I'm looking forward to this.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
So they, giraffes, first came into being in the
Miocene epoch, which was like 23to 5.3 million years ago, and
ever since they have been in anevolutionary arms race with the
acacia tree.
So they have those long necksto eat from acacia trees.
They also evolved with, likeother herbivores that eat like

(14:38):
lower down vegetation, so theyspecialize in eating higher up
vegetation from trees.
So the leaves of the acaciatree are really high in protein
and nutrients, which makes themthe giraffe's favorite food
source.
So in response to thispredation, you could say, from
giraffes on their leaves, theacacia trees grew thorns in an
attempt to deter them.

(14:58):
And then the giraffe was likeI'll do you one better, and grew
like a longer, more flexible,like prehensile tongue and then
thick lips.
So that way, even if they getstabbed by a thorn, they're not
bothered.
Huh.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
And so it is funny you say that, because we were at
the zoo last year and I was notlooking at animals this time.
Their tongues are, like,upsettingly long and dexterous.
It's weird.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, it is so they can get around the thorns to
grab the leaves, because theycan eat 29 kilograms of acacia
leaves and twigs a day, which isa lot One giraffe.
So if you have a herd, that's alot, it's a lot.
So the thorns in the acaciatree are like eight to 10
centimeters long and are verysharp.
So they, you know, got the lips, got the tongue to get around

(15:47):
all that damage.
So the acacia tree was like allright, great.
So that was no longer workingfor them.
So they, I almost said, decided,obviously that's not how
evolution works, but for thesake of this sure so the acacia
tree evolved to release tanninswhich taste awful to the giraffe
and they also inhibit digestionbecause they make the plant
material difficult for thegiraffe to digest and even

(16:10):
cooler which I thought you wouldlike because plants.
If a neighboring acacia tree isbeing eaten by a giraffe and
releases tannins, the nearbytrees will also release tannins
to deter giraffes from theentire area, which is wild that
plants can do that.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
It's so cool and just I'm going to shoehorn in more
plant facts.
We see this in like tomatoes andstuff too.
Like lots of plants communicatein this way.
So like tomato plant.
Have you ever smelled a tomatoplant Like?
They have a very, very like.
I don't know how to describe it, but it's a very distinct smell
.
Nothing else that I can thinkof smells like a tomato plant.
It's kind of weird.

(16:46):
Like not even things in thesame genus like peppers and
eggplants.
But so they have these likelittle call them trichomes.
So they're little hairs withlike a bulb on them that produce
these volatile organiccompounds.
So when a caterpillar orwhatever starts feeding on it,
they'll release these VOCs.
And other tomatoes havereceptors that kind of like the

(17:08):
acacia.
They can like smell it.
They're not smelling.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, I was going to ask how that works, because I
did not understand how thatworks.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
So they're just these little binding sites in some of
the cells on the trichomes andon the leaves and it signals
through the plant to likerelease defense chemicals to
make the leaves more bitter orto release some of these VOCs
themselves.
So some caterpillars don't likethe smell of it.
It'll like drive them away.
It's like a real kind of acridLike.
For a human it's not terrible,but if you're you know this big

(17:36):
there's a lot of it.
But what's crazy is like thereare predatory and parasitic
wasps and birds and otherpredators that have evolved to
detect this smell as well.
So when caterpillars startfeeding on tomatoes they call in
reinforcements from thepredators of the caterpillars to
come eat them.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Wow.
Well, that's a great transitionbecause I found, in this case,
very similar transition becauseI found, in this case, very
similar.
There is a species of stingingant that have figured out how to
make a home within the thornsof the acacia tree, like they
hollow them out and live in thethorns.
So when the giraffes come andtry to feed on it, the ants will
go sting the giraffe to get itaway from the tree.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Oh, that's nightmarish.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, I know it sounds like an awful awful plant
to live around, but they loveit.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Like giant needles full of ants.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, ants that sting you.
Yeah, and I was curious too.
So the acacia tree is releasingthese tannins, and I'm sure it
could be the same with otherplants, like the tomato plant,
in this sense.
So they're releasing thetannins, but like, how long do
they stay, like in the leaves,if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Hmm, you know that's a good question.
I don't actually know thatanswer.
I know that a lot of times withdifferent trees and different
plants, like as stuff depositsin the leaves, it takes a while
for it to metabolize out.
Okay, like leaves sort of havea couple of specific jobs and
it's producing sugar, you know,producing carbohydrates, but

(19:07):
they also respire.
They're also processing andlike processing out waste
products from the plants andthings like that.
So sometimes they can hangaround for a while.
I would think on an acacia tree, something that lives in like
dry climates, it would hangaround for a while because
they're not moving a ton ofwater and they can't like flush
it out super quick?

(19:27):
Yeah, but I don't know.
That's an interesting question.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, sorry to spring that on you because obviously
like acacia trees are not aroundhere but, I'll cut in.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
When I'm editing I'll cut in, I'll look it up and put
in a tag there.
Anyway, so professional, goodfor you, you know.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
All right.
So another fun example ofcoevolution that I have is the
buff-tailed sicklebackhummingbird and the quote
lobster claw, heliconia flowers.
Am I pronouncing that right?
Uh-huh.
Cool, great.
So they're in the tropicalAmericas and if you look this
bird up, so that's thebuff-tailed sickleback
hummingbird, and sickleback isone word.

(20:03):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Who names birds?

Speaker 2 (20:12):
I wish I knew Some of them are pretty whack.
But if you look this bird up ithas a very distinct bill shape
that perfectly matches theflower of the Heliconia flowers
and when you see them side byside it is like startling how
similar the shape is and it's sothat bill can perfectly fit
into these flowers to get thenectar from it I'm looking this
up right now.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
I'm listening to you okay, because now I have to see
it.
Oh, you are not kidding rightthat's so crazy yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
It reminded me of like darwin's finches if people
are familiar with darwin'sfinches from the galapagos, but
like they are so specialized tothis plant that they went all in
on this one plant and frompeople who live around them,
they say that these hummingbirdsare rarely ever found away from
these flowers because theycheck the same flowers on a
regular, repeatable sequenceevery single day, like it's

(21:00):
their job oh wow yeah, andluckily for this hummingbird,
the heliconia flower are fairlycommon throughout the neotropics
and are used as well as anornamental in gardens.
But you can imagine how quicklyand devastating it would be if
this plant, for some reason, wasto be affected by like disease
or climate change.
It would wipe out the entirespecies because they would have
no time to adapt to a differentplant.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
So yeah and yeah, and that's such an important point
too, and I think this is a goodtime to maybe just throw in a
quick discussion about thinkingabout ecosystems in general.
You know, when we talk aboutresiliency in an ecosystem,
there are some that there's tonsof different options.
Right, we've got generalistsand specialists and in this case
, like this relationship betweenthe what did you say?

(21:45):
Buff-tailed sicklebackBuff-tailed sickleback I love
that so much, and the siliconeaare.
It's like there's no resiliencythere.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
No.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
It is, it is like one thing this is, this is the only
thing.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
And it's almost like they got lucky that the plant
that they rely on is, like,favored by humans, you know, and
that it hasn't been negativelyaffected by climate change.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
So yeah, that's, that's wild.
Yeah, such a cool little bird.
I'm gonna have to look at morepictures of that later.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
It's cool there are other species that are like
pretty similar, but that one Iwas like.
This one is so distinct.
But and then another example Ihave and I really wanted to
touch on because it's local tome and I think it ties perfectly
back into my line of work,which is normally like in human,
wildlife, conflict stuff.
So the white-tailed deer, okay,they're everywhere, I think

(22:34):
Texas, in Texas.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, we have white-tailed and mule deer
here too.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Nice, yeah, so in the northeastern US we just have
naturally we just havewhite-tails, and they are
everywhere in urban areas.
They can also be reallyoverpopulated because there's no
hunting.
So a lot of people lovewhite-tailed deers, rightfully
so.
They're precious and a lot ofpeople feed them and I'm not
talking like bird feeders, Imean like people, like obviously

(23:01):
deer will eat out of birdfeeders.
But some people intentionallyput out food for deer and here
in the Northeast, when it'swintertime, people who may think
that they're well-meaning willput things out like corn for the
deer to help supplement rightfor the deer to help supplement
right.
However, this is not great forthe deer and might be like
killing them with kindness, soto speak, because they have

(23:23):
evolved for specific plants atspecific times of the year.
So in the winter their gut biomeactually changes due to what is
available.
So throughout the year they'reeating browse, so like leaves
and buds, in the end of twigsand stuff and some woody plants,
and then they'll also eat likefungi and lichen, forbs, nuts,

(23:44):
berries, grass, and thensometimes because there is never
like a true one size fits allthing in nature sometimes
they'll eat protein, like babybirds so, which is very
disturbing, we don't have to getinto that.
So they can be pretty picky innormal warmer seasons like
spring and summer, but as itgets closer to winter and things

(24:05):
like grass and nuts disappear,they need to shift to eating
mostly browse, which is notreally nutritious for them.
So they've evolved to survivethese winters in the northern
part of their range by having agut biome that slows down and
gets ready to digest theselow-quality foods throughout the
winter months.
So if you give them a huge pileof corn that is really high

(24:25):
energy and they're like well,this is great, I'm just going to
get a belly full of this.
They don't actually have timefor their microbiomes to adjust
to that type of food, and theycan literally die from
starvation, from not being ableto get the nutrients from the
things that they're being fed.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Wow, that's wild.
And again, we'll throw this ina few times.
Don't feed the wildlife.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yep, that's not encouraging at all.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Just leave them alone .

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, I think if there's any point to be taken
from this, it would be that itwould be leave them alone.
They know what they're doing.
They're mostly okay.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, well, yeah.
And again, I like what you say,too, about people being
well-meaning in this, because Ithink most people genuinely like
oh, they need food.
Like that, we think, like youknow, because we struggle in the
winter sometimes or as aspecies, you know, because food

(25:24):
is more scarce and we're adapteddifferently.
It's one of the if you're cold,they're cold things, right.
I was just going to say thatit's the same kind of deal Like
don't bring the mountain lion inyour kitchen, they're not cold.
It's the same kind of deal Likedon't bring the mountain lion
in your kitchen, they're notcold.
And we see this on the plantside too, because there are a
lot of like well-meaning peopleand I, you know, I I don't like
like calling specific people outunless it's like five minute

(25:46):
crafts or whatever.
All bets are off there.
But there's, there's someone onsocial media right now that
people are calling like themodern johnny apple seed and
he's like going around,essentially in wild areas, like
saying, oh, these like landscapeplants are bad, turf grass is
bad and some there's some truthto that but just like planting
vegetables outside and likethrowing vegetable seeds out and

(26:08):
throwing things like that out,saying, oh, we should have food
in these wild spaces, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like okay, I get whereyou're coming from.
However, these are non-nativeplants, these are not adapted to
the ecosystem, they areprobably not great for the
wildlife.
They're going to force outnative.
So we do things.
I think a lot as people tryingto be like oh, because this

(26:31):
makes sense to me, this is athing that I should do when
there's so much science and somuch intricacy in this that it
can be problematic.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, I also love that people are calling him like
the modern Johnny Appleseed.
It's like do you know that youcould also just forage native
plants, like people used to livehere and live off of the things
here before?
There was tomatoes thrown inthe ground, so like?
There actually is stuff you caneat if you know what you're
looking for.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
And kind of a lot of it, yeah, like throughout the US
.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yep, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
I think that's that's such a good point.
I like that, I don't know.
I like the way you approachthat thought of look, I know
you're trying to help, but maybehelp less or help different.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Maybe help less.
That could be applied to somany things that we're going to
talk about today.
So, yeah, yeah.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
So, as we sort of talked a little bit about and
your example of the hummingbird,I think was a good one that as
we lose ecosystems, as we loseplants, like especially specific
plants, you know, we lose someof these relationships.
How does this affect?

(27:41):
I mean, I think there's a clearrelationship you've already
talked about, but on a granderscale, what does this?

Speaker 2 (27:44):
do to our animals if we start to lose some of our
important native plant species?
Yeah, so I'm going to be abroken record.
I have examples for everythingbecause, as you're aware, in
biology there's not like a onesize fits all thing.
So generally I can say things.
Like you know, logging destroyswildlife habitat, and that is
true.
And although it can be donesustainably, often companies
that are clear cutting are notlike replacing with the diverse

(28:07):
species that they took.
So it is like, for example,where my family hunts in
northern Maine they've cut downa ton of the forest there and
they just, instead of replacingwith what was naturally there,
they just have been plantinglike perfect rows of spruce
trees.
And I'm like, first of all,things need more than just pine

(28:28):
cones to live and second, likeGod forbid, like a fungus or
some other disease comes alongthat affects spruce, and then
there's nothing for anything.
Things like that are things tothink about, but we've already
talked about a few examples ofanimals that rely heavily on
certain plants.
So, like you said, you canimagine what would happen to
them if they just disappeared.
But when I think of creaturesaffected by climate change and

(28:49):
changing plant communities, thefirst creatures to come to my
mind are butterflies.
Okay.
I am by no means an insectexpert, but I do know a little
about these species.
So two that come to my mind,first of all, because I love
lupins, are the Carnar bluebutterfly here in New Hampshire
and then the mission bluebutterfly in California, and
although they're on oppositesides of the country they both

(29:11):
heavily rely on lupins.
And the lupins in New Hampshirethe native ones anyways are
different from the lupins inCalifornia, of course.
But specifically for themission blue in California the
lupin that they need wasthreatened by a fungal pathogen
recently and it's become moreprevalent, like that pathogen as
the climate warms and killsmore plants.
And then also, as the climatewarms, the seasons shift.

(29:33):
So the plant is adapting to theshifting of the season and the
butterfly its life cyclesfalling out of sync with that
plant's new life cycle as theclimate changes.
And then here in new hampshire,similar but kind of different
problem.
So the carner blue butterflylays their eggs and then the
caterpillars hatch on the lupinsand the only thing that those

(29:57):
caterpillars eat is the wildblue lupin leaves.
But these lupins here in NewHampshire need fire or regular
disturbances to create openpatches for them, and we
suppress fires here because wegenerally think fire equals bad,
so it actually ends up harmingthis lupine, that we're not
letting these fires happen orwe're not disturbing the areas

(30:21):
in the correct ways.
So the destruction of that andthen pine barrens are like a
type of ecosystem that has alsobeen deforested here in New
Hampshire which would allow forthat plant to grow.
We've seen losses of wildlupines here and then also the
loss of this butterfly, sothere's like a reintroduction
program happening here in NewHampshire to try to get them out
and we're trying to replantlupins.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
But it is very it's tough.
Yeah, and you know, I thinkpeople that have been listening
for a while are like probablygetting the picture Talking
about fire and how fire is likeimportant to pretty much every
ecosystem on the planet, likeit's a natural process and yeah,
I get it Like we're flammableand our houses are flammable and

(31:05):
stuff.
So like controlling it makessense.
But you know, it's only morerecently that we're really being
better and more thoughtfulabout prescribed burns and
taking care of that particularpart of ecosystem management.
We had a couple of episodes agoI talked to a restoration
ecologist in plants and we havehad huge fires up here in my
part of Texas.

(31:26):
Something like one and a halfmillion acres burned over about
10 days.
It was maybe a little bitlonger, maybe it was like but
still it was crazy Huge grassfires.
But we talked on the backsideof that, as horrible as that is,
like how many species will sortof get rejuvenated and get

(31:47):
another shot to establish andthings like that, talking about
the lupins in your area and thatclose relationship with the
butterflies Again, it feelscounterintuitive, but fire's not
bad, fire's like kind of a goodthing.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, and I think it goes to show there's a trade-off
.
So, you know, not everythingcan survive together at the same
time, and sometimes some thingsneed to blip out of an area so
other things can move in, andit's a cycle that we have
disrupted.
That was going on for thousandsof years before we got here.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, didn't need our help.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Nope, definitely didn't.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
That's a good one, and it makes me think too about
monarchs.
We're kind of in the path ofthe monarch migration.
We're a little bit on thewestern edge through Texas, and
there's a lot of conversationsnow about specific species of
milkweed that are gettingplanted.
There's a tropical and there'sa bunch of them, but a lot of
the tropical ones stay floweringlonger into the season and they

(32:42):
actually hold the monarchs inplace too long in some cases.
So when they should be headingsouth, the native species have
already dropped their leaves,they've already finished
flowering, that forage is goneand that host plant is mostly
gone or on its way out.
So the monarchs take that as asign as, oh, we should move on.
But again, beingwell-intentioned, we're like, oh

(33:03):
, milkweed is milkweed, and weplant it and it lasts too long,
and so there's again these tinylittle things that we can do to
be more ecologically minded, Ithink.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, and especially butterflies, I think, are such a
good example of like howfragile things can be and like
how things have been timedtogether for so long and we are
just figuring it all out, likewe don't really know or have a
good understanding of how it allworks.
But we're trying, we're gettingthere, I think.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, so okay, you had texted me beforehand with a
topic.
You were like I don't know ifthis is too controversial, but
we'll go into it a little bit.
Let's talk about spotted owls.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, you know, man.
So I feel like I've garneredmaybe like a reputation of
talking about controversialthings, so we're just going to
get into it as best as we can.
So spotted owls are verycontroversial right now in the
wildlife conservation field.
Spotted owls are verycontroversial right now in the
wildlife conservation field.
I'm not here to convince anyonethat there is a right or wrong

(34:01):
answer, but I just want toexplain the situation as it's
happening.
The spotted owl lives in oldgrowth forests in the Pacific
Northwest.
These forests had because a lotof them are gone, but had
multiple layers of canopies.
Animals like spotted owlsneeded these decayinging bigger,

(34:22):
older trees for nestingcavities, and then they needed
the multiple layers of forestfor varying food sources.
So over the last 150 years,heavy logging of the areas have
left only 10 percent of theseforests intact and, yeah, and
most of that is on federallyowned land and that land is
federally protected, but it isvery fragmented and from 1995,
which was just five years afterthese spotted owls were

(34:44):
federally listed as like athreatened species, and up into
2018, their populations havedeclined by 65 percent wow,
that's.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
That's a big number it is.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
That is a very large number.
It's very close to 100 andthere are only a few thousand
individuals left, so I don'twant to get us too into like
wildlife law, but sure I wouldbe remiss if I didn't mention so
.
The spotted owls only existingon federal land also means that
the government has like a ton ofcontrol over how they manage
these owls, which is kind of thecrux of the problem that we're

(35:17):
going to talk about, becauseit's on federally owned lands.
Technically, the federalgovernment does not have to take
any conservation measures ifthey don't want to.
So that's complicated and it'sa story for another day.
But they have also acknowledgedthat the owls warrant further
protection and they have beenput into this category called

(35:38):
quote warranted but precluded,which means for animals listed
on the Endangered Species Act.
This essentially gives thefederal government like an
excuse to not change anything.
They're acknowledging, like wethink that this species needs
more, but we just don't have thetime or resources to do
anything about it.
They don't, and there are a lotof species in that category,

(35:59):
which has led to like a ton oflitigation, which just makes the
problem worse.
Because they're stuck inlitigation and I'm not saying
that that's not, you know, suingisn't a valid thing to do, but
it just it makes the problemworse.
So it's just it's a very messyproblem.
But, beyond habitat loss andfragmentation, the spotted owl
is now in competition with aspecies that they hadn't
encountered before, and that isthe very visually similar barred

(36:21):
owl, which was originally justfound in the eastern US.
But they've started moving westand they are more aggressive
than the spotted owl, so theywill out-compete the smaller
spotted owl and push them outand either into less suitable
habitat or just straight up killthem, because that's how
raptors do stuff.
So this is where thecontroversy comes in, because

(36:42):
the us fish and wildlife servicehas, within this past year,
proposed to lethally remove 470000 barred owls in california,
washington and oregon over thenext three decades.
Yeah, six figures worth ofbarred owls, it's a lot, and
there is literally no otherprogram in the country that

(37:05):
lethally removes a bird that iscovered under the Migratory Bird
Treaty Act, which is prettymuch most birds.
So, naturally, animal activistsand other people who love birds
are calling out this program,saying it's choosing the
survival of one bird overanother, even though the source
of the problem was humans.
Logging Interesting, yeah, oh.

(37:53):
So it's very nuanced speciesbeing lost forever.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
So it's very nuanced, but Wow, and I think what that
drives home, or what that shoulddrive home to a lot of people
listening, is how complicatedconservation can be, because you
know, as humans, we want thingsblack and white, right, we want
it.
Here's the right answer, here'sthe wrong answer.
This is what you should do, andthere's so much nuance in that
and there's so much, just,unfortunately, like

(38:21):
uncomfortable gray area when wetalk about plants and animals
alike.
You know, an interestingexample, just on the plant side,
is dandelions, and this soundsweird, but like the dandelion
that everyone like loves and youknow the cute little flower
that pops up in the spring,whatever you blow a little thing
Like, it's not a native speciesto North America, it's a

(38:42):
European species that wasintroduced, but they've been
here a long time.
They're naturalized pretty mucheverywhere.
They're, you know, pretty good,they've been here long enough
that they still serve as prettygood early season forage for a
lot of pollinators and thingslike that.
But they're not a nativespecies.
And so there are people that,oh no, we should get rid of all

(39:03):
of them.
There shouldn't be anydandelions here.
They're not, you know, nativeand there are advocates of that.
And then a lot of people arelike well, hold on, like they're
well adapted, they're notreally invasive, they're not
like really causing any harm,probably they're a net good, you
know, overall.
So I think when we have theseconservation and ecology

(39:25):
conversations, like there has tobe a little bit of flexibility
and grace that we extend throughit because, again, I think
we're trying our best.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah, it's hard, it's everyone's first time here,
like we're all just trying tofigure it out together.
But you know, that'sinteresting too about the
dandelions, because I would saythe biggest difference between
my field and your field is, ifyou want to get rid of an animal
, you can do that, like you canphysically find that animal and
kill it.
How the heck do you get rid ofevery single dandelion?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
that seems impossible you pretty much don't, yeah,
and that's, and that's like whenwe talk about, like, invasive
species, uh, in plants and andgetting rid of that, I mean it's
possible, but a lot of timesthe like is the remedy for that
worse than than the problemthey're causing.
Like, yeah, we could go out andspray herbicides and do all

(40:17):
kinds of things and get rid ofthem, but, like, at what cost,
you know?
And so, no, it can be tough andbecause of how quickly plants
evolve, how quickly they canadapt, it can be really
challenging.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, which also like point one to plants, like good
for them, you know.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, you know, I always say that plants always
win because they they evolvequickly and they're just waiting
us out.
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, they really are .

Speaker 1 (40:45):
One thing I was curious about and and as we sort
of because because I want totalk a little bit more about
like ecology and plants, but Ialso want to talk about some of
the communication stuff you doand I want to hear about your
podcast and I want my listenersto hear about your podcast.
But where you live in theNortheast, like what ecosystems
and you mentioned this a littlebit you know with, I guess,
logging companies going back inwith just like rows of spruce or

(41:07):
whatever, in the ecosystemswhere you live and as in your
job and in your life, like whatchanges have you seen in and I
think you've answered some ofthis already but in like animal
populations, practically for you, as someone who does this, like
, how have you seen the impactof, you know, species loss and
habitat loss on your animalpopulations?

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, I mean.
So you know, I've lived in NewEngland my whole life and I've
lived in some relatively ruralareas.
I've lived in New England mywhole life and I've lived in
some relatively rural areas andjust where I've lived in the few
small towns, I've seen so muchdeforestation, which I think is
generally the trend throughoutthe US, and it's definitely
causing more and more wildlifeto have to move into urban areas

(41:52):
.
So it's causing a lot morehuman-wildlife conflict because
the wildlife has really nowhereelse to go and not every species
of wild animals necessarilydecreasing the population.
So it makes it reallycomplicated.
And so one big example that Iused to have to deal with a lot
is black bears.
So this is generally truethroughout most of the US, but

(42:15):
their populations are increasing, not decreasing, and they're
coming more and more intoconflict with people as they
move into urban spaces becausethey love eating bird seed and
also garbage and compost andliterally anything else.
They're omnivores, they can doit all.
They can hunt, they can forage,they can do whatever.
So honestly, good for the blackbear, but they're also a bear.

(42:39):
So generally people who havenot been used to living in wild
spaces are not comfortable witha couple hundred pound semi
carnivore living around them.
And it's complicated for mebecause, on the one hand, of
course, I want more wildlife,but on the other hand, there's
so many of them that they'rebecoming accustomed to people,

(43:00):
and, especially post-COVID, somany people from urban areas
move to more rural areas andthey just seem to not inherently
understand how wildlife works.
So there's just a lot ofintolerance of people for these
issues and then, yeah, soanyways, long story short, a lot
of animals are being driveninto more human spaces and it

(43:21):
seems like we're butting heads alot, and especially for animals
like black bears and there'sobviously more bigger,
scarier-ish animals in the US,like grizzlies Like it is
warranted for people to beafraid of that kind of conflict
and it is like those conflictsare increasing.

(43:42):
So I think that's why it'simportant to have conversations
about like, hey, how do we livearound black bears?
How do you secure trash?
And like, what plants do theynormally eat?
And you know, if you have awhole row of blackberry bushes
in your backyard and you'reafraid of bears, is that really
the best choice for you, foryour garden, you know?

Speaker 1 (43:58):
so stuff like that because they'll eat pretty much
anything, right?
Oh, yeah, yep, I think about,like the yeah, I don't know.
I think about my part of thecountry where, technically,
technically, we are not outsideof the extended range for a
black bear.
I was looking at a map theother day.

(44:18):
You're not going to see, Idon't think, a whole lot of
bears roaming the prairies outhere, but technically they don't
have to be too far.
We've got some canyons andstuff near here where they could
be, but I'll have a fox wanderin my backyard sometimes or a
possum and get into my trash orwhatever.
The thought of that being abear, it's scary and get it, or
a possum and get into my trashor whatever, and the thought of

(44:39):
that being a bear.
It's scary, is just it's.
And then you see like videos onsocial media of people like hey
, come here, bear, I'm going topet you and I'm like that's a
bear.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
What are you doing?
Yeah, that's the other flipside of this is people just like
, are just so out of touch withhow to appropriately deal with
being around wildlife.
So, yeah, there's a lot to it,but, yeah, deforestation has led
to people not being ascomfortable with the animals
that are moving in because theydon't have places to go.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
So, oh, my goodness, yeah, that's, that's again.
I'm just thinking about openingmy back door and having a bear
look at me.
I'm like, ah no, I don't wantto.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, because I've had so many people reach out
from places that don't live,like they don't have bears or
black bears, and so many peopleare like, oh my God, I can't
imagine what it's like going inthe woods and I'm like I never,
for all the times I'm in thewoods, like by myself in the
middle of the woods, you know,like off any sort of trails,
I've never once been afraid ofencountering a black bear, and I
think that's important because,like, when you're in the woods,

(45:36):
they can get away and thingsare normal and how they're
supposed to be.
But if you encounter a blackbear in your fenced, in backyard
, there's only so many placesfor it to go, so it can get very
icky or not icky.
That's not the right word.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
It can get very scary very fast.
Yeah Well, also could be icky.
I've listened to your podcast.
That's a good point too, thatlike out there where they live,
like they know what they'redoing, they don't really want to
mess with you Like I can'timagine most of them want a
whole lot to do with you.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, generally I mean, there's hundreds of
thousands of them, unlessthey're threatened or whatever.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Exactly, yeah, there's hundreds of thousands of
black bears in the country and,like they yeah, they know what
they're doing they would preferto not be with us.
So this seems like a prettygood time for a break and an
opportunity to reflect on howbears don't want to spend time
with us.
We'll be right back.
No-transcript.

(46:46):
Being a part of the show, andfor letting me do it and for
being so supportive, thanks tothe Davis College of
Agricultural Sciences andNatural Resources as well, but
again, more than anything,thanks to you, the listener, for
being a part of this.
If you want to support plantanthropology, there's a lot of
ways to do it.
First off, connect, get onsocial media, look up plant

(47:06):
anthropology on all thedifferent platforms.
Look me up personally, theplant prof.
I'm all over the place too.
I like it when people reach outand say hi, so do that.
You can send me an email atplanthropologypod at gmailcom
with thoughts, comments,information, whatever, potential
guests, anything you want totalk to me about.
Shoot me an email, hit me up onsocial media.
You can also support the showby rating and reviewing anywhere

(47:30):
you can on Apple Podcasts orSpotify or any of your podcast
listening apps.
You can do it on social media.
If there's a way that you canleave a rating for the show, it
would mean the world to me, butthe best way to help the show
grow is always by word of mouth.
Tell your friends aboutPlanthropology.
You have a friend that likesplants?
Do you have a friend thatshould like plants?
Tell them about the show.

(47:51):
Also, you can financiallysupport the show if you'd like
to.
At buymeacoffeecom, slashplanthropology and for the price
of a coffee, you will buy me acoffee.
Or you can go toplanthropologypodcastcom and
click on merch and find allkinds of good stuff.
I wanted to tell you today,though, about something really,
really, really cool.
I had the opportunity topartner with the Lubbock Arts

(48:13):
Alliance, and, if you know, Ilive in Lubbock, texas, spoilers
, and the Lubbock Arts Allianceand, if you know, I live in
Lubbock, texas, spoilers, andthe Lubbock Arts Alliance is a
group that I've worked with indifferent capacities over time,
but they reached out a whileback and asked if I'd help them
promote a new art exhibit, andwhen I say art exhibit, you're
probably thinking aboutsomething in a gallery, which is
awesome, but this is a citywideart exhibit.

(48:34):
So the Lubbock Arts Alliancehas something called the PDA
Collection, the Public Displayof Art, and it has large
sculptures and art pieces alongthe highways all over town.
In fact it's a collaborativeproject with the Texas
Department of Transportation,tornado Industrial Arts, lubbock
Arts Alliance and several othercivic organizations.

(48:55):
But this new exhibit as part ofthe PDA collection is called
Delightful Fantasy Flowers byartist Glory Hartsfield from
Stella, missouri, and thesethings are so cool, so cool.
I've gotten the opportunity tosee these in person.
They're like 13 feet tall,they're colorful and whimsical
and they are reminiscent of alot of really cool flowers that

(49:16):
you can grow in your garden Lotsof wildflowers, from zinnias to
marigolds to columbines andseveral others.
But these delightful fantasyflowers are named after sort of
facets of happiness jolly,jubilant, joyful and cheerful,
so parts of what it means to behappy.
So if you're ever in LubbockTexas, go drive around, go find

(49:36):
these.
I'm going to post a link to amap of where they can be found,
as well as some pictures of theflowers themselves on my social
media and in the description andeverything else.
But if you're around and youwant to check these out, I would
highly recommend it.
They're very cool.
Support public art, support yourarts alliances if there's one
where you live and just beinvolved in the community,

(49:59):
because plants and art go handin hand and they are powerful
ways to make our communitiesbetter and to bring us together.
And speaking of bringing ustogether, let's talk about why
we should stay away from bearsand stuff.
Let's get into it.
I think, what you do in yourscience communication role and

(50:29):
you do such a good job, let'sget into it.
Just as a side note, I'mgrateful for this show and your
show because it's gotten toconnect me with so many cool
people.
Yes, like we never would havemet, like we wouldn't be friends
if it's not for that, and Ithink it's cool yeah, I know you
ever think about like when didwe meet?

Speaker 2 (50:47):
someone asked me recently like how long have you
known vickram?
I was like I have no idea Ihave no idea.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
It's been several years at this point yeah like
several years at this point Idon't really know Like I started
doing this kind of seriously in2020 when, again, the world was
again I don't know.
I didn't know what I was doingwith my time.
Yeah, so maybe that year, thenext year, I don't really know.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
But it's been a while .
Yeah Well, I'm happy we're here.
It's been a minute.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, were here in a minute.
Yeah, no, me too.
So how did you get into science, communication and podcasting
and all of that?
Because you know you have a lotof the outdoor experience, the
subject matter knowledge, likewhat made you decide I want to
get on the internet and get onthe you know podcast space and
tell people about it.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, so it really like.
My science communicationstarted back in 2018.
I was a intern at the SquamLakes Natural Science Center in
Holderness, new Hampshire, and Iwas terrified of public
speaking.
I was in college at the timeand I had taken, you know, those
prereq like communicationsclasses where you give
presentations to your class.
But that's not real, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
No so.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
I was giving public presentations to like maybe 100
or so people with a live animal,public presentations to like
maybe 100 or so people with alive animal, and public speaking
gets a lot easier when you'reholding like a peregrine falcon
or feeding an opossum, becauseeven if you're just like
blabbering on or stuttering,people are looking at an animal
and that's really what they careabout.
So, it gets much easier to talkto a bunch of people that you

(52:13):
don't know when you have a coolanimal with you, and so normally
I was connecting with peoplewho were, like, really excited
about wildlife and they wantedto learn more.
And then after college I movedinto a job where I responded to
calls from people experiencingproblems with wildlife and they
were yeah, very rarely happy tobe speaking with me about what
was happening to them.
And now I'm somewhere in between.

(52:34):
So like for podcastinging, likegetting into that, so I really
started listening to podcastswhen I was in college and I was
listening to a lot of true crimepodcasts because everyone did
and has at some point sure theproblem is I listened to them so
much that I got so anxiousabout being murdered all the

(52:56):
time.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
It's not what you want.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
No, and I was realizing, like when you hear
those stories of, like mostlywomen being attacked, I'm a
woman, I identify as a woman.
So I was like, well, this sucks, and no one's telling me what
to do to stop it, like I justhave to live in fear, you know.
So I was like, okay, okay,let's pivot away from that.
And move on to like, what aboutanimal attacks?

(53:20):
Like are there animal attackpodcasts out there?
Right, and I could not find apodcast that like ticked off the
boxes of like what I waslooking for, and I also just
genuinely like wanted a podcastwhere I could learn more about
human wildlife conflict and likethe scariest ones, because
people were saying to me, likeknow, if they were having an
issue with a bear, they werelike, well, if you don't come
take this bear, like if it killsme, it's your fault, which is a

(53:43):
lot.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yeah.
So I wanted to be able to likeknow how, know what to say to
people and be like, okay, well,here's the actual frequency at
which they attack people and youknow, here's all the info.
So I couldn't find a podcastthat did that, so I was like,
you know what, screw it, I'lljust like make one, and I, yeah,
it's just been nice because Ilike can say what I feel and

(54:09):
want and I'm not, you know,trying to sugarcoat anything for
people because, yeah, theseconflicts do happen.
So, like, let's talk about it,be honest about it.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yeah, that's super cool and so something I always
like to get like a feel for whenI talk to other communicators,
podcasters or whatever is youknow.
You made a point earlier.
You said that, well, I'vebecome known for talking about
controversial things and I'vebeen thinking about that as
we've been chatting and I'm likeit's interesting because I see

(54:39):
a lot of what you post and whatyou talk about and I don't feel
I don't see the controversy init.
But I think it's maybe becauseI know a little bit about
biology and ecology and I think,with a lot of things from God,
help us outdoor cats, which Iknow is your favorite thing, to
a lot of the other stuff we dealwith that no, that could be

(55:01):
controversial.
It could be the first timesomeone's hearing hey, maybe
don't feed the bear, Maybeputting corn out for the white
deer is not, or the white-taileddeer is not the best idea, like
what has that been like for you?
What is the experience of likesort of putting this information
out there been like for you?

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Yeah, I mean.
So you know, when I was doingthose public talks, I loved
doing it because it was likeinteracting a lot of times with
kids who were so pumped about it.
So I was like, man, this is likewhat it's like to jump start a
kid's career in conservation orwildlife, like it felt so great.
And then the flip side I, youknow, I normally like to think I

(55:39):
have like a thick skin, butwhen I was talking with people
about issues they were havingwith wildlife and if they were
like, well, I just want to killthis bear, like I would take it
so personally because I was likeit's literally just trying to
eat your trash, like I don'tunderstand why you need to kill
something.
That's just inconveniencing you.
So it's been nice podcastingbecause I can say the things I'm

(56:02):
feeling and I have an hour orreally however long, I want to
explain why I think that way andI like to think that I, you
know, I'm halfway through amaster's degree right now, so I
like to think I'm prettyqualified to talk about wildlife
, and like sure I would think so.
Yeah, like I like to think Iknow what I'm talking about.
So it's been really nice toconnect with people this way and

(56:22):
especially like because I talkabout some hard topics, I've had
quite a few people reach outand be like I was terrified to
go outside and now I'm lessscared because of your podcast
and I feel like if even oneperson said that to me, I'd be
like that's a win, like I couldstop podcasting and I would have
won if one person felt betterabout going outside.
So that's super cool.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Yeah, no, I love that .
So let's talk, I think, alittle bit about the, the show
specifically Get Out Alive,which is again so good, it's so
good, it's so much fun.
By the way, and you know thiswill be I always have to think
about okay, when is this episodecoming out and what is relevant
?
I don't exactly know.
It won't be too long, but, like, as we record this, you just
came out with a new logo for theshow which is like a guy

(57:06):
standing in front of a bear onlike a mountain path, and I love
it.
Like rest in peace to that guy.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Yeah, but like yeah, it's like an homage to our
original logo, which like kindof I mean I do love our original
logo.
It did look like clip art alittle bit.
I did pay an artist to make itso it wasn't but yeah, so it's
like an homage to our original,but like just beefed up and more
professional looking.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Yeah, no, I love it.
So you know you talk about onthe show like actual animal
encounters that usually didn'tgo great Like usually it's like
animal attacks or whatever, andI like that.
On the show your co-host, nick,kind of plays the straight man
and is like I didn't know aboutthat and the amount of times

(57:52):
he's just shocked by somethingyou tell him is so much fun to
listen to Thanks.
So, in putting the show outthere, do you have a couple of
stories or things that you'velearned through it?
You think that will stick withyou and I know it's hard to pick
because I've been asked thisquestion too but, like, do you
have a couple of, like, mostnotable stories or things that

(58:14):
you think are like your favoritethings you've talked about?

Speaker 2 (58:17):
yeah, I mean the episode.
This is probably a recency bias, maybe not, but the most recent
episode that we just had cameout was with this man named I
call, call him Rajiv, his familycalls him Rajiv, so repels, I
call him that.
But his full name is like Mathand Matthews, and so he is a
human wildlife conflictspecialist in India and he

(58:39):
responds to people that havebeen killed by animals and like.
So I'm just for a little morebackground, I guess, on me I'm
halfway through a master'sdegree in wildlife forensic
science and conservation.
So forensic science that isdealing with dead things or dead
people.
So ideally, like in my mind, Iwant to help in, like either
wildlife trafficking or likeliterally responding to

(59:03):
situations where animals haveattacked people.
So he does that, like heresponds to people that have
been killed by animals.
And he sent me I just got thechills, he sent me some pictures
of bodies of people who havebeen killed by elephants and
sloth bears.
The sloth bear victim Icouldn't even tell it was a
person, it was a lump.

(59:25):
It was awful, vikram, so thatstuck with me and he, just the
way that he like, responds to somany of them.
Because in india, elephants,tigers and leopards kill four to
five hundred people a yearindividually, individually.
So each species kills four tofive hundred people a year oh
wow, that's a lot a lot.

(59:46):
I mean there is a lot of peoplein india, but like when you
think about the us.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
That's not happening.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
No yeah, and obviously like totally different
habitat styles, totallydifferent country, like
different animals, whatever.
But that just like the way thathe talks about it all and he
seems like a little jaded reallystuck with me because I was
like man.
Like in the us, if a mountainlion kills somebody, it dies
like we try to find it and killit and that is not the situation
that happens around the world.

(01:00:12):
So that was one story where Iwas like man.
That's a good reality check.
That, like we, there isdifferent stuff going on all
over the place with some animalsthat are like really serious,
like can be really scary.
So that's one.
And then the other one thatreally always will stick with me
is we spoke with Jeremy Evans,who is a survivor of a grizzly

(01:00:34):
bear attack.
He was attacked three times inone day by the same bear.
They just couldn't get awayfrom each other and his face was
gone.
He this is part of the fun oftalking about animal attacks, I
guess, but yeah, I mean hisstory is crazy.

(01:00:54):
He has a book called MaldLessons Learned After a Grizzly
Bear Attack and he highlyencourage you to check out him
and the episode that we did withhim.
But when we're talking aboutanimal attacks.
It's very easy, I think, toforget, and especially talking
about true crime.
It's very easy, I think, toforget, and especially, you know
, talk about true crime.
Like I mentioned earlier, it'seasy to forget that the podcast
that you're hearing is about aperson like yeah it's about

(01:01:17):
someone who has a family,possibly children, that are out
there still like friends.
there are people who respondedto those calls or cases and it
is such a nice reminder that youare hearing stories about real
people.
And it is not fun or cool tolisten to people being attacked

(01:01:37):
by animals.
I do it to be educational, butthis is a serious trauma people
are going through and it is notan easy death to be attacked by
an animal by any means, unlessit's like a tiger and it kills
you in like a second because itbites you.
Yeah, it's still awful, youknow not great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
No bro, yeah, but it's different.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Yes, it's different than being like mauled by a bear
, who's just like beingdefensive, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
So yeah, I've had some of those stories, stick
with me, where I'm like man whenyou hear stories on podcasts,
like you're not just hearing astory, like you're hearing about
a person who was alive, so yeah, and one thing I think that
y'all do really well and I thiswas in my notes to actually say,
because as people hear this,like yeah, it's like there are a
lot of true crime fans outthere and and.

(01:02:22):
I think that a lot of thesepodcasts and this is not again.
You know, this is not supposedto be a knock against anyone,
but it's like here's thishorrible thing that happened,
and then here's an ad for, youknow, a mattress or you know
like it's just this weirddisconnect.
I think one thing that y'all dowell is like there is a lot of
humor in the show, but you do agood job of not like you're not

(01:02:45):
making light of the situationYou're not making light of.
I think you do a good job ofhumanizing the stories, of
paying sort of that respect thatit deserves, but also I think
that what you're talking about,too, of needing a little bit of
levity in the situation to keepit from just like ah, all the

(01:03:06):
time is important, and I thinky'all strike that balance really
well, which I think is hard todo.
I think that that's somethingthat I think y'all should be
proud of, because I think it'sreally cool.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Thanks, yeah, and you know like the show is going
through some really big changesright now.
For example, nick hasn't beenon the show in a while.
He it's just like podcastingisn't like a thing that you ever
get taught Like you, just kindof everyone just starts doing it
and you figure it out.
And I think he just was likethis, is it?
I don't think I'm built forthis.
Like I don't think this is theright thing for me, which is
totally fine, like you know,we're still friends or whatever,

(01:03:38):
but yeah, so it's been a lot ofjust me lately, or like me with
a guest, like the people.
I was just talking about.
I have some other friends likeI'll talk to sometimes too.
But yeah, I always want to makea point of like we're all
people, you know, and I don'twant to just like fully depress
everyone all the time.
Like I want you're listening toa podcast to be entertained,
but I also don't want to likemake you question your life

(01:04:00):
choices.
You know, like there's got tobe a fun balance of like you're
being entertained, but also weare talking about the serious
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
But also we are talking about the serious thing.
Yeah, well, and again, I thinkthat's that's.
That's again a tough balance tostrike and you do, you do that
very well.
I wanted I'm looking it upbecause I wanted to get the
episode number OK, this is, thisis a deep cut from in the way
back when one of my favoriteepisodes, because it caught me
off guard.
So much is the episode aboutbeavers.
Yeah, I knew you were going tosay that off guard.

(01:04:31):
So much is the episode aboutbeavers.
Yeah, I knew you were gonna saythat.
Okay, because, for one, thissent me down a rabbit hole of
how freaking, enormous beaversare so they're 65 pounds.
That's a lot I had no idea yeah,that's a large dog like yeah,
yeah, that's like it, you knowand we have.
I'm thinking about like thelarge carnivores we have around
here, not that a beaver is likethat, but you know, a coyote

(01:04:52):
weighs.
An adult coyote weighs like Idon't know 50, 60 pounds, maybe
a little bit more than someBeavers.
Should not be the size ofcoyotes, like that's just that
doesn't feel right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
You are absolutely right.
That does not feel right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
No, that one caught me so off guard and like I've
listened to it a couple of times, cause just I was just like did
she say that Like 65?
Yeah, no, it's weird.
So that was.
That was one of my favoriteepisodes, because again, I know
that was like three years agolooking back at my podcast
player?
Yeah, but it was so.

(01:05:24):
It was so interesting.
So, just as we sort of wrap upa little bit, because I was
looking at the time, we're overan hour, which is fine as part
of, you know, doing podcasts andgetting the word out about your
podcast.
Like you have to sort of tie inother communication outlets,
whether that's Instagram orTwitter or whatever.

(01:05:46):
Do you have a favorite?
Has that changed over time?

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Does podcasting count ?

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Yeah, I would say that podcasting has been my
favorite, just because I amallowed to say what I want to
say with like.
No tie to like oh I'm, you knowI'm representing this certain
entity.
So I have to okay very honest,but like it has been nice
because, like you know the oldadage I don't know, I'm saying

(01:06:15):
it's the old adage, but, likewhen we're talking about bears,
have you ever heard the sayingif it's brown, lie down, if it's
black, fight back?
Yeah yeah, that's like notreally accurate and oh, great
love that, yeah.
but oh, great, love that, yeah.
But when you are, for example,the National Park Service,
there's no way for you to getout the nuances of possibly

(01:06:37):
antagonistic bear interactionsin a pamphlet.
And you can make a thread onTwitter, but how many people are
going to read through that?
So I love podcasting becausefor an hour we can sit and talk
about okay, should you actuallyfight a black bear?
Should you actually, if agrizzly is coming at you, lie
down?
So it's the perfect mediumwhere you can have really

(01:07:00):
nuanced conversations about thatkind of thing and get at the
heart of these interactions andwhat we should actually be doing
.
That you can't really do onother platforms per se.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Is the answer to both bear mace.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Yep, that's it, okay.
Okay, I guess it doesn't needto be nuanced.
It could just be brown or blackbear mace.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Bear mace it?
No, I was just curious Cause Iwas like you know I.
I've always heard that I grewup hearing that is because I was
like you know I.
I've always heard that.
I grew up hearing that.
You know, we spent a lot oftime in colorado in the
mountains, and new mexico in themountains or whatever.
And well, if you see a bear,this is what you're supposed to
do.
Oh, okay, like and and I canprobably count, on the on one
hand, the number of times likeas a kid hiking around the

(01:07:44):
mountains with my brother, howmany times we were actually,
like, prepared for anything.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Never no.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Like, like, if we see a bear, we're just going to get
eaten by bears, like that's, Idon't know.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
I appreciate it.
It's, it's on my resume.
I have not been eaten by bears.
And I think you know and we'vekind of addressed it, I have one
like more like content questionthat I want to hear.
Just, you know, I have a coupleof wrap up questions at the end
but with stuff like that, themisinformation that's out there,

(01:08:14):
I feel like a lot of what youdo through the podcast, a lot of
what you do through socialmedia is and this is maybe a
very specific question in someways try to combat that.
Like, what do you do if you seea bear, are outdoor cat?
I keep bringing that up, I'msorry, that's like a raw wound
on social media yeah, or outdoorcats okay, like as someone who

(01:08:35):
also does that a little bit.
They're probably in differentveins, like how, how do you keep
doing it, because that can bevery thankless, right, that is a
that like I'm getting in fightsabout that kind of stuff is
probably pretty exhausting, likewhat keeps you going through
your communications and all ofthat.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
Yeah, you know, I once again like to think I have
a thick skin, but sometimes thatstuff does bother me.
Or like if people are likeactually your cat's depressed
because she's stuck inside allthe time.
Those who are listening can'tsee, but Vikram can see that my
cat is sitting behind me,perfectly content to just be in
the house.
She looks pretty happy.

(01:09:15):
Yeah, she actually doesn't evenlike going outside.
I don't know.
Certain things do get to me,but especially a platform like a
podcast.
It's really intimate.
We're in your ears right nowand if you haven't ever seen us
before're like making up animage of us in your mind and
like if you're binging my showor vikram show, like it feels

(01:09:37):
like you really know us.
So when, for example, maybetoday I say spotted owls are
endangered, next week they'renot, and you get like really mad
at me about it and you take itreally personally because you
feel like this platform is, youknow, so personal.
We can't really.
I mean, we can go back and editthings with new information,
but like you can't do that withevery single episode, every time

(01:09:59):
something changes.
I mean yeah like the beaverepisode.
I don't remember everything Isaid in that episode.
It was years ago.
You don't remember everyconversation you have every
single day no so it can be alittle nuanced to just like
remind people.
Hey, I was having aconversation with a friend and
maybe I said something that Ilike wasn't totally educated
about but like I'll be better inthe future.
So you know, for example, likein my podcast some early

(01:10:21):
episodes I described bearhibernation incorrectly because
I had been told bears don'tactually hibernate.
And then some bear expertsreach out to me and they're like
, hey, they do, here's how itworks.
So in the next episode I hadabout bears, I just was like,
hey, by the way, I learned thisnew thing and I was incorrect
before.
My bad, but here's the newinformation.

(01:10:42):
Now we all know more.
Cool and I think, just easythings like that that can be
combating misinformation and Ifeel like, as long as you are
actively trying to have thenewest and best information, and
as long as you're not afraid tobe like, hey, I was wrong and
I'll be better, like then you intheory should be okay and I
feel like that's.

(01:11:02):
I would rather people, I'drather have an audience where
people are upset atmisinformation than an audience
who, just like, outrightbelieves everything that they
hear, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
I like that a lot.
I have never thought of it inthose terms, but I really like
that, like having an audience ofpeople that will call you out.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Yeah, that's actually kind of great, yeah, absolutely
.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Huh, yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
I really dig that, and then also, I mean, as
scientists, like you and I wentto school.
We were literally trained toseek out the most accurate
information.
So, like I hope that people whoare like listening to podcasts
or whatever kind of, take whatscientists have to say as like
more accurate, because we I mean, if they're a good sign, if
they're a good person andthey're good scientists you know

(01:11:49):
like sure, we've literally beentrained to find scientific
studies and determine if that'slike a scientifically sound
study.
So, like I generally trustscientists, I I don't know, like
we we learned how to do thework, so you guys don't have to
and we're trying to condense allthis information so you don't
have to go look up 10 sources tofigure out how much a beaver
weighs.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
So which again is far more than you think it is.
However much you think it is,you're wrong.
That's really cool, that'sreally a good way to think about
it, I think, and really a goodway to think about science and
the communication of it for sure.
So, as we sort of wrap up here,I've got two questions.
I want to ask you what do youwish people knew about your

(01:12:31):
field?
What do you wish people knew?

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Just more.
Like that was the only answer Ihad, which is not.
It was just like a little bitof a cop-out, but like I really
do no, it's great.
I wish people were just moreconnected with like the land and
the things that are around them.
No-transcript.

(01:13:20):
Wildlife is so important andfor so many reasons.
I mean, even if you for somereason hate wildlife but you
love plants.
Like plants also need wildlife.
Like, like it's all connected.
We all need each other.
So I just wish people knew moreabout like the earth around
them.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
Yeah, I actually love that answer Just more.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
Just more.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
I dig that Anything.
Okay, and then for the lastquestion that I throw at
everyone.
If you had a piece of advicefor people about whatever,
anything, would it be like?
What do you, what do you wantto send people home with?

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
um, very similar to the thing I just said learn more
about the wildlife around youfair enough I have a degree in
wildlife biology.
I've lived in new hampshire formost of my life and I,
literally this week, learnedthat new hampshire has two
species of lemming.
Like what?
yeah, I had no idea okay so,like you can still be learning
about things around, even if youlive there your whole life.
You can still learn about thewildlife around you and it's so

(01:14:13):
exciting.
I highly encourage people tolike check out the things around
you, and I also think which ispart of the reason I made the
podcast like we are afraid ofthings that we don't understand.
So if you find that you'reafraid of snakes or bears, learn
as much as you can about themfrom any which platform, whether

(01:14:33):
that be podcasting, books,whatever.
Just learn as much as you canand you will feel so much better
about going outside to be likelook up everything about spiders
.
Then you won't be as afraid ofthem.
Like I get it.
It's hard to practice what youpreach, but, like, really, when

(01:14:54):
you are better equipped and knowmore about the thing that
you're afraid of or the thingthat you're hesitant about, or
you're like well, I don't wantto be killed by a bear, so I'm
not gonna go hiking in the woods, If you know more, you will be
less afraid to venture out andconnect with the world around
you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Yeah, with the world around you.
Yeah, that's great advice.
And yeah, learn more, learnmore and don't stop learning.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
I think that's really good, if they're here, they're
probably already doing that,like they're here because they
like to learn.
Well, that's a good point,that's a good point.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Yeah, that's a good thought too, and I hope that
that's true, like I like tothink that's true for sure.
Well, ashley, that was a lot offun.
I appreciate you coming to chatwith me.
Thanks, vikram, I learned a lot.
Where can we find you?
Plug all your stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
Oh, okay, so Get Out Alive an animal attack podcast
on all the platforms that youwould also find Plantthropology
Also.
Vikram was on an episode withinthe past few months about
deadly plants.
Yeah, it was a great time.
I also learned a lot, so checkus out.
At getalivepodcastcom.
We are going through a huge showchange right now.
Like I mentioned, nick is likekind of stepped out, so it's

(01:15:56):
really just me.
I'm doing this full time rightnow, so we're revamping the
website getalivepodcastcom, soyou see some changes there.
New logo yeah, getalivepod onInstagram, where we like post
about the new logo.
Yeah, get a live pod onInstagram where we like post
about the new logo.
Tiktok get out alive.
Facebook get a live podcastwhere I post like recent stories
that are like relevant to thesubject matter.
We're on Patreon and we alsohave like a blog on our website

(01:16:18):
and on Patreon where you canfollow for free and get like
relevant things to episodes thatI go more in depth into.
You can find me personally onTwitter at the Angryologist, or
what is formally known asTwitter.
That I will not call anythingelse.

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
No, no, no because that's, yeah, no, that's it.
Never, I refuse.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
I refuse Also what are you supposed to say Like I
tweeted?
Are you supposed to say I X'd?
What does that even?

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
mean no, I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
No, I refuse Everyone still says tweeted.
It's not xcom, it is literallystill twittercom.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
No, it is.
It's so funny.
Anyway, yeah, no, I'm with you,I'm with you, I'm not, I refuse
.
Yeah, will not do it.
Yeah, they'll have to kick meoff.
Take that, Elon.
I think Ashley's advice of justdo more is amazing.
Learn more, care more, gooutside more, be the environment

(01:17:09):
.
Thanks so much, ashley, foryour wisdom and your sense of
humor and just your passion forthe outdoors and for nature.
Like I said earlier, it'sinfectious and it's wonderful
and you are just the best.
Thanks to you, the listener,once again, for being a part of
Planthropology.
It means the world to me.
Thanks to the Texas TechDepartment of Plant and Soil
Science for supporting the show.
Planthropology is recorded,hosted, produced, whatever other
things by me, vikram Baliga,our music is by the

(01:17:31):
award-winning composer, nickScout, and all the listening is
done by you.
So thanks for that.
You know I love you.
Right?
I do Take care, be good, keepbeing kind to one another.
If you have not to date beenkind to one another, maybe give
that a shot.
It's pretty cool.
Keep being very cool plantpeople, and I will talk to you
next time.

(01:17:51):
Thank you.

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