116. National Parks, Leaving No Trace, and Touching Grass w/ Cassie Yahnian and Danielle LaRock

Send us a text

Cassie Yahnian and Danielle LaRock share the captivating journey of their podcast National Park After Dark, celebrating four years of exploring the mysteries, histories, and conservation stories of America's public lands.

• Former veterinary technicians who bonded over their shared love of outdoor spaces and morbid curiosity
• Transformed casual conversations about national park mysteries into a wildly successful podcast
• Use compelling storytelling to convey conservation messages and outdoor ethics more effectively than direct instruction
• Emphasize the importance of responsible recreation with current national park staffing shortages
• Highlight the humbling power of nature to provide perspective and grounding in our increasingly digital lives
• Recommend supporting national parks through donations and volunteering for trail maintenance
• Share personal favorite parks including Yellowstone and Grand Tetons, with deeply personal connections to these spaces
• Advise listeners to trust their intuition and prioritize time for activities that bring true meaning and joy

Support the show

As always, thanks so much for listening! Subscribe, rate, and review Planthropology on your favorite podcast app. It helps the show keep growing and reaching more people! As a bonus, if you review Planthropology on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser and send me a screenshot of it, I'll send you an awesome sticker pack!

Planthropology is written, hosted, and produced by Vikram Baliga. Our theme song is "If You Want to Love Me, Babe, by the talented and award-winning composer, Nick Scout. Midroll tunes are by Rooey.

• Substack: Office Hours
• Website: www.planthropologypodcast.com
• Podchaser: www.podchaser.com/Planthropology
• Facebook: Planthropology
• Facebook group: Planthropology's Cool Plant People
• Instagram: @PlanthropologyPod
• e-mail: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is up?
Plant people.
It's time once more for thePlantthropology Podcast, the
show where we dive into thelives and careers of some very
cool plant people to figure outwhy they do what they do and
what keeps them coming back formore.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand your humble guide in this
journey through the sciences and, as always, my friends.
I'm so excited to be with youtoday and this one is a twofer,
two for one episode.

(00:20):
It's wonderful because we havetwo guests today and they are
the hosts of a wonderful podcastcalled National Park After Dark
, which I'm quite sure a lot ofyou listen to already.
It's great, it's huge.
They've done such a good jobwith it.
But I was so excited when theyreached out a few weeks ago
about being on Planthropologyand telling the story of our
national park system and ourpublic lands and the ways that

(00:43):
we should act in those spaces,as well as to celebrate their
four-year anniversary ofNational Park After Dark.
So this was a great episode andI got to talk with Cassie
Yannian and Danielle LaRock andthey were just wonderful.
And it's interestinginterviewing other content
creators and the ones that Iactually really respect and
whose content I really like,because there's always that

(01:05):
little bit of fear that what ifthey're awful?
What if I meet someone that Ireally admire and whose stuff I
really enjoy?
What if they're awful?
And I am so happy to reportthat Cassie and Danielle are
wonderful.
They're so much fun.
They have a great amount ofwisdom and experience and just a
love for nature and theenvironment and making sure that

(01:26):
you understand what it's liketo be out in these spaces and
also just telling really goodstories.
They're phenomenal storytellersand whether they're talking
about something paranormal or atrue crime or just talking
conservation and discovery andthe love of nature, they bring
so much heart and so much soulto the episodes that if you have
not listened to National ParkAfter Dark, I strongly suggest

(01:49):
that you add it to your rotationand check out everything they
do.
So I want to get you right intothis wonderful, exciting and
eye-opening and insightfulepisode.
So grab your refillable waterbottle, pick up your trash and
make sure you have a good trailmap and settle in for episode
116 of the PlanthropologyPodcast, national Parks Leaving
no Trace and Touching Grass withCassie Yonian and Danielle

(02:12):
LaRock.
Y'all thanks so much for beingon Play.

(02:38):
With your Apology, I havelistened to National Park After
Dark for a little while and I'mjust such a big fan a national
park after dark for a littlewhile, and I'm just such a big
fan and so I was thrilled aboutthe opportunity to have y'all on
and talk to you about nationalparks and everything that's
going on.
Cassie Danielle, welcome, andif you don't mind introducing
yourselves a little bit and tellus where you're from, how you
got into what you do, all thatfun stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Of course.
Thank you so much for having us.
We're very excited to be hereand excited that you listened to
the show and we have a funconversation today, so we're
excited to answer thesequestions.
I'm Cassie.
I'm half of National Park AfterDark.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
And I'm Danielle and I'm the other half of National
Park After Dark.
A little bit of backgroundabout the both of us.
We both grew up in Southern NewHampshire and we met and
crossed paths after college whenwe worked at an animal hospital
together and we were both vettechs for quite a while, and
that's where we connected andfound our shared love of the

(03:36):
outdoors and our curiosity withsome of the morbid things that
happen in the outdoors.
And several years after weinitially met, we both ended up
going on different paths as faras where we wanted to live, so a
cross-country move happened andseparated us physically, but we
decided to keep theconversation that we were

(03:59):
already having going in the formof a podcast, and that's how
National Park After Dark wasborn and we launched our first
episode in January of 2021.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Okay, so yeah, y'all just celebrated your four-year
anniversary of the show, socongrats on that.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Thank you.
It was a fun anniversary, itwas a big one.
It felt.
You know, we started it so longago and we didn't know what we
were.
We didn't know what to expectfrom podcasting and of course it
is a lot more entailed than weimagined it would be.
But we've gotten into the groupof things and the fact that

(04:38):
we've been doing this for fouryears now it's just really.
It's flown by.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
It really does.
I started this show in oh goshNovember of 2019, like right
before the world shut down.
I was writing a dissertationand I didn't want to, and so
somehow I've blinked and it'syeah, years later.
It's crazy how that happens.
But, cassie, tell us a littlebit about yourself.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
I am also like Daniel said.
I'm from Southern New Hampshirebut I currently live in Vermont
.
We, as she said, we met eachother because we were vet techs.
But I jumped around in myoutdoor life a bit before that
and before we met.
So I used to work in outdooreducation for a little while.

(05:25):
I went to school for psychology, but I didn't.
I used it a little bit here andthere.
I did a few jobs and eventuallyI realized that I really wanted
to be in the outdoor space alot more and so I switched jobs
and I worked in outdooreducation for about two years,
which I really loved, and then Ihad a few jobs after that but

(05:50):
eventually led me to Vet Techingwith Danielle, where we
discovered our love for theoutdoors.
And we grew up actually in NewHampshire, which has the White
Mountains National Forest andthere's so much hiking and
beautiful places up there thatwe started having our friendship
bring us up there as well andwe did a lot of hikes and

(06:11):
different exploration up there.
And Danielle mentioned morbidcuriosities, which is certainly
true, but I will say I'm more ofa history buff on the outdoor
spaces.
I really love to know the dark,the darker histories, because
they tend to be a little bitmore interesting spaces.
I really love to know the dark,the darker histories, because
they tend to be a little bitmore interesting.
But I really have enjoyed.
New Hampshire has a lot ofinteresting history, which I

(06:33):
think has fueled that love forit, and now that I'm in Vermont
I'm exploring all the historythat there is around here.
But I am, I guess, a little bitabout me travel wise.
I am currently trying to checkoff all the national parks,
which is not surprisingconsidering National Park After

(06:53):
Dark.
But I've checked off 49 statesand I have one left which is
Wisconsin, so that's next on mylist of places to go.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Very cool.
We just started doing that.
My son just turned nine and acouple of years ago we were like
, okay, well, before he's likean adult or decides he doesn't
like us.
Now, between now and when he'san adult, we should go hit as
many parks as possible and we'reonly four or five in, but it's
a fun adventure.
It's so cool getting to see Idon't know all this stuff and

(07:27):
parts of the country that, likeyou have to go and it's just for
that, and there's somethingabout the intentionality of
visiting these places thatreally gets me Like I really
appreciate that about it.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, national parks certainly are very special
places and they're fantastic tobring your families to,
especially because most nationalparks offer very accessible
options.
But also there's just like thisworld of wonder that you're
entering, like you're unplugged,you're often without reception
and you get to go into thesebeautiful places and even though

(08:01):
sometimes they can be filledwith other people, you have to
remember, when you look around,all of these other people are
there for the same reason, whichis actually really cool that
everyone has come to this areabecause it's so incredible and
so beautiful, and to be able toshare that and make memories
with your family is such a funway to make it an even more
special experience.
Yeah, it's very cool to make itan even more special experience

(08:23):
.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, it's very cool, so I like to.
When I talk to outdoorsy people, I'm always curious do y'all
keep, do you have houseplants,do you garden at home, or is it
more like you enjoy nature whereit exists?
Because I get such a diversityof answers to this?
I think some people are like,yeah, I like to go look at trees
and animals, but they can stayover there, and so I was just

(08:46):
curious if that's something youdo at home too, or if it's just
like a thing you go and visitand go and see.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
We both have a lot of houseplants.
I currently have a Monsterathat I'm very proud of.
It is massive.
I just repotted it a few monthsago and I'm already like, wow,
this thing is just getting outof control.
But it's my like prized whenpeople come to my house.
I'm like come to my living roomand see my Monstera.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
I am kind of on the other end of the spectrum.
I do really well with cacti.
Low maintenance plants tend tobe my forte and I think it's
because I haven't I wouldn't sayI have a green thumb by any
means, but I'm not terrible atkeeping house plants.
There's just a couple of thingsthat I move a lot.

(09:38):
So between actually physicallymoving these plants from place
to place is difficult and alsokeeping up with the different.
I mean I've lived in Washingtonstate where it's a legitimate
rainforest and things do reallywell there, and then I've been
in Colorado where all of asudden all of those plants that
were thriving have whiplash andthey have no idea.

(10:01):
Now they're in the dry Coloradodesert, Now I'm in Maine, so
there's just it's hard to keepup with their needs.
Also, Cassie and I travel a lotand I don't have oftentimes I
don't have help around tomaintain the plants when I'm
away.
So cactus tends to just reallywork for me because they're so

(10:24):
low maintenance, they're soresilient, yes, and resilient.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
So I, yeah, I totally get that.
I live out here in the almostdesert and pretty much like at
some point if it can't take careof itself, whether it's in my
office, and I forget about itfor embarrassingly, like weeks
at a time, like I feel like Ishould be better at this, and I
still completely neglected allmy office plants over the winter
break and now I have to replacesome.

(10:50):
But I get that too of okay,you're tough, you can make it
like plants that thrive onneglect tend to do pretty well
around me.
So you talked about how y'allmet and all of that, but I
really want to get into nationalpark after dark and talk about
the show a little bit, because,again, it's a great show and I
think a lot of my listenersprobably either already listen

(11:11):
to you or would really enjoyyour show.
So where did that come from?
You talked about your sort oflove of the morbid and the
intersection of that with nature.
But talk about the developmentof the show and how you got to
where you are today, becauseit's huge.
You've done a great job with it.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, we really appreciate that.
As far as how National ParkAfter Dark was kind of conceived
was almost by accident.
We did not go into this withformal plans, a business
strategy, any sort of anything.
We kind of just stumbled ourway into it and we are so proud

(11:51):
of where it is today.
But it definitely had veryhumble roots.
So, as we mentioned, cassie andI met and bonded over the
shared love.
So that's kind of where thefoundation began.
But to bring it back a littlebit further to maybe where
National Park After Dark reallystarted to formulate in the

(12:11):
background and subconscious, wasa trip to Yellowstone National
Park I took with my family in2011.
And it was a traditional, likemulti-generational trip to
America's first national park.
You know, did all thetraditional national park things
that you do with people varying.

(12:33):
We get into the park, we go tothe visitor center and I headed
straight for the book section,which both of us tend to do on
our trips, and I picked up abook called Death in Yellowstone

(12:55):
by Lee H Whittlesey and I readthat book from cover to cover
during the trip.
So when I was going to thesedifferent locations and points
of interest within the park.
I was simultaneously readingabout their dark history, and it
just made the experience for meso much more layered and

(13:15):
engaging, and it put a spin onthese places that I would have
never known before, and so thatexperience was great.
It coincided with my own senseof morbid curiosity as an aside
and interest in history, andthat was that.
And then so fast forward to whenCassie and I are having similar

(13:36):
conversations in differentlocations, like the White
Mountains or other places thatare on our list of personal
travel and things that we wantto do in the future.
We would be looking upcoinciding stories of those
locations to kind of give usthat same type of Yellowstone
2011 experience that I had.
So when we decided to movecross-country and form that

(14:00):
conversation more into a podcastformat, we decided to do just
that.
Let's pick a location and let'stell a dark history or true
crime or animal encounter storywithin that park or location and
share it on a public platform,because maybe there's people out

(14:20):
there that would find thatinteresting as well.
And we were doing this for along time.
After work, we worked nursingshift hours at the animal
hospital and in the background,at 2 am, we would be reading and
writing and researchingepisodes and with little to no

(14:45):
idea that it would be such thesuccess that it is.
And of course, we've grown andevolved and we are no longer
working as veterinarytechnicians.
This is very much a full-timejob, but we're so happy about it
.
So that's kind of how NationalPark After Dark began.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
That's awesome and I think for a lot of us that get
into podcasting, that'ssomewhere in our minds like what
if it blows up?
But I think that didn't comefor me until later and I'm still
not there.
Like I, I'm sitting in myoffice, my university.
I went and talked to a bunch ofundergrads about soil today, so
I'm still very much doing thething.
But, yeah, y'all are living themedia creator like podcast.

(15:27):
People dream and that's so cooland it turns out.
Yeah, there are a lot of peoplethat love what you do and that
agree that the sort of morbid,dark stories are fascinating and
they are.
It's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
We certainly we didn't know that it was going to
gain the traction that it didwhen we first put out the
episodes.
It's like our moms and ourfriends will listen and this
will be great.
And we just didn't.
We couldn't have imagined howmany other people had this
like-minded this to them, thatthey wanted to hear these

(16:00):
stories, because at first, likeDanielle was saying, we started
telling these stories andresearching these episodes and
we thought it was going to beall true crime.
And then we realized, as wecontinued researching, that we
love survival stories, we lovedark history, we love the
paranormal, we love anything.
We found all these differentsections and subjects within the

(16:23):
outdoor space.
Which is the common denominatorthat everyone loves are these
outdoor spaces, but there's somany different types of stories
that fall within that and Ithink that's where we found more
of our success is that we foundpeople from all different walks
of life because they'reinterested in the outdoor space,
not necessarily true crime, butthey love survival or they love

(16:46):
history or they love animals.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
So it's we've found all these different types of
people who all come together forthe same thing, and that's
great and I think with part ofthe mission too, or what feels
like it's part of the missionlistening and I think just
hearing y'all talk and havinglistened to the show for a while
, I think it is that givingpeople such a great appreciation
for, even for the people thatmaybe said, oh, here's a cool

(17:12):
true crime broadcast and theyget to learn about conservation,
they get to learn about howimportant some of these public
spaces are in our public landsare, and, like I saw a I don't
know if it was on I'm not reallyon Twitter anymore, but on
threads or something the otherday someone said what is more
American than the idea ofnational parks, that it's a

(17:34):
space that's for all of us, andI think people don't think about
that and y'all do such a cooljob of weaving that together
through the stories that youtell.
I think that's reallyimpressive.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Thank you, thank you, and again, you know that was,
that is such the goal.
But we again had no.
Like this is going to be ourmission statement.
Like you know, we had noformalized, crystallized
thoughts of this is what we wantto present and how we want to

(18:07):
present it and what part of thereason we're so proud of our
show is because that came on itsown.
And you know, you just sayingthat, like that's what you've
gotten from listening to us,like that's what we hope for,
that we're conveying, and toknow that we're conveying that
clearly through all the verytypes of stories that Cassie was

(18:29):
just mentioning, like that isthe ultimate goal.
Because we started doing this,because we have a love and
appreciation for outdoor spacesand wildlife conservation and
making sure that we are veryclear in our stance that the
outdoors are for everyone andthat everyone should be able to

(18:49):
experience national parks andpublic lands, and we wanted to
just create a space in thepodcasting world to showcase
that and to show how wonderfulour wild world is.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, and to go off of that too.
We've found we've always caredabout leave no trace and
conservation efforts and thingslike that.
But you can scream into amicrophone a million times and
say, pick up your trash, andpeople are gonna hear you, but
it doesn't really resonate.
But then when you tell a storyof something that happened that

(19:27):
coincides with why you shouldcare or I don't know, there's
when you think of stay away frombears.
That's a big one that we'vetalked about a lot on the
podcast.
You can drill into people athousand times and put signs all
over the national park thatsays do not approach bears.
Bears are dangerous.
But then when you hear a storyof two people being mauled in

(19:51):
the same park on the same daybecause of practices that were
happening and how dangerousbears truly are, next time you
walk into that park you're goingto think and you're going to go
oh, I'm going to listen tothese rules.
I'm interested in bear safetybecause I can connect it
somewhere to something that I'minterested in and that I care
about.
So through our stories we'vealways tried to tie in these

(20:11):
different, just not only lessons, but just information that can
sometimes feel boring.
To put it into a story that'sfun and exciting or not fun
always, but sometimes justreally dark and morbid.
People resonate with it moreand you remember it a lot better
that way.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
And storytelling is such apowerful tool, right, I think
you look at human history andit's what we do, right?
We tell stories about the worldaround us and so much of the
folklore and the stuff thatdevelops around these spaces is
exactly that like cautionarytales, like instructive tales,
those kinds of things.
And I think, as with thesubject matter you talk about,

(20:52):
you cover a lot of ground, fromthe paranormal to the true crime
kind of stuff.
There's stuff that you, I think, have to, or it's hard to tread
that line of.
These are like real people thatwent through real things and
all of that.
And it's a delicate sort ofbalance to strike sometimes of,
like you said, I think we listento these stories, I'm like, oh,
that was a fun story and I'mlike that guy got eaten by a

(21:13):
mountain lion.
That's fun is maybe not theright word, but the experience
is fun of learning about allthis stuff and getting all of
that information.
When you all approach, can youtrade off on stories, all of
that information?
When you all approach, youtrade off on stories, all of
that?
So, when you approach tellingsome of these stories of whether
it's lost hikers or animalattacks, what do you try to keep

(21:34):
in mind?
How do you build the experienceyou're trying to get across,
just from a storytellingperspective?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, that's a great.
That's a great point.
And for our stories that wepick, we are very selective to
your point about where there's aline of how to be respectful to
some of these.
We don't typically cover thingsthat are happening currently,
unless I should say there aresome things that we do if it's

(22:01):
really pertinent to our subjectmatter.
But especially when you'rejumping into true crime cases,
we're not here to speculate orto put we don't want to just
tell a story.
To tell a story because it'sinteresting.
We like to pick things that wecan bring back to how we can be
better stewards in the outdoorsor bring forward some
information that maybe youdidn't know about.

(22:22):
When we talk about a missingpersons case or someone who got
lost while out in a nationalpark, things like that, where we
can tie it in and make it moreinteresting, but also a reason
for the story.
It's not just I'm listening tothis story because it's
interesting.
It's like we want to tellstories that people are going to

(22:43):
walk away from and they'regoing to take something personal
from it, whether that beinspiration to visit these
places, whether it be moreknowledge of these places,
whether it's a bookrecommendation that they should
check out.
We just we really curtail ourepisodes to make it so that the
listener can take somethingpersonal away from it at the end

(23:04):
of it.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
And as far as what we do, keeping in mind, you know,
when we select one of thosestories with all of that in mind
, we have those parameters andwhen we're really now focused on
, okay, what falls within thoseparameters, what do I want to
cover, especially pertaining totrue crime, because that's you,
you know where we initiallybegan and I thought that we were

(23:28):
going to kind of the lane wewere going to stay in, quickly
veered right out of that lane.
But we still do cover truecrime.
But when we're doing that, weare very mindful of the stories
that we're sharing and the whybehind it, like Cassidy said.
But we also always keep in mindif one of, if loved ones of

(23:53):
that are related to this story,would list are listening to this
episode right now, how wouldthey feel?
Are we proud of how we coveredthis story?
Are we proud of the informationwe shared in the picture, how
we painted this picture?
So we're, and that usuallypertains to two more current
cases, which we don't do often,but even when we do, I mean I

(24:16):
covered a case of thedisappearance of a high schooler
named Trenny Gibson that stillhas loved ones and surviving
family.
Yes, it's a very well-knowncase and well-covered case.
I'm not sharing any details thataren't known to the public or
aren't public domain information, but still, you never know
who's listening and we want tomake sure that whatever

(24:40):
information we're sharing, inwhatever way we share, it is
respectful, and that's alwayslike the biggest thing that we
keep in mind when it comes totrue crime.
We don't want to just be addingto noise.
You know, like Cassie said,we're not here to speculate.
We aren't a news podcast.
We aren't breaking anyinformation that anybody else

(25:02):
couldn't access on their own, sowe just want to present it in a
way that's a bit different.
So that's how we kind of dotrue crime stuff.
But everything else, yeah, wetry and thread a lesson in in
some way, whether it berespectful wildlife viewing
parameters or leave no traceparameters or safe hiking tips

(25:26):
and just things like that, andsometimes that medicine is
hidden in a lot of sugar.
So sometimes it's not like youend the episode and you could
list three things that youlearned, but it's subconscious
learning sometimes and peopleare walking away with that
knowledge and that's the best.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Absolutely, and I think a great example of that
honestly and I'm not just sayingthis because it's your most
recent episode Okay, like, Ilistened to more than but your
most recent episode, as we'rerecording this was the river
ladies of the grand Canyon, andit was such a fascinating listen
.
It was so good, like pieces ofhistory that I never would have

(26:07):
heard, and so much good, I think, just context for the culture
surrounding some of these thingsand what these ladies had to go
through as they were reallytrying to explore and find so
many cool things.
That was just really enjoyedthat one.
I think that was a very goodpiece of history and
storytelling there.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Thank you.
I personally I researched thatone and I personally loved that
story and I thought it wasreally interesting too, because
I learned a lot while I wasresearching it.
And I was shocked at one.
I just I couldn't believe thatthe expectations of women

(26:53):
studying plants were held toDon't go anywhere that you
couldn't find a plant in yourbackyard Okay, where are you
going to study any of this flora?
And it was just, it was reallyinteresting and they ended up
being the first women tosuccessfully run the Colorado
River, but during it they werethe first, they were two
botanists and they were thefirst people to ever botanize

(27:16):
the Grand Canyon and they foundall of these different species
of plant life that a lot ofpeople had at the time been like
, oh, it's a desert, there'snothing there, and it was just.
I found it very interesting justhow they were able to do that
in the backlash that they facedbecause they wanted to, and then
also the minds that werechanged while they did it.

(27:36):
The people who came forward andwere like women shouldn't be
there at the end turn around andwere like maybe women do belong
there and great job.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, really story and you think about so.
A story just came out recentlythat they found a new plant
species in the back country atbig bend.
Just over the last few weeksand I actually just came from
big ben, we were there forspring break and you think about
these spaces that I don't knowif y'all have ever been to that
part, to that national park, butit's like I haven't.

(28:06):
Wild desert, right, it's one of.
It's such an interestinglandscape, but without women
like these two going out andsaying, no, this is a place with
incredible ecology, incrediblespecies and a need for
conservation conservation, Ijust I flashed that forward.
However many decades and it'soh.
No, this discovery is becauseof people like them, because

(28:28):
they were brave enough to go toit, and that's just.
That's the coolest thing.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, the information that is found by people who are
willing to overcome these hugesometimes huge obstacles is
really interesting.
And then it goes down inhistory of what we will keep
forever, like this plant speciesyou're talking about that was
just discovered.
No one's ever going to forgetthat species now.
It's always going to be inscience books and it's going to

(28:54):
be studied further and it's thishuge opening to a whole new
world which is really exciting.
When you see that these newdiscoveries happening especially
because I feel like sometimesthe world feels like it's fully
explored People are like we'vebeen to every corner, we know
what everything is, so when youfind out that's very much not
true it's exciting.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, for sure.
And, cassie, you were talkingabout how much you learned
through this most recent episodeand how much that meant to you.
Danielle, do you have afavorite story, and I know it's
hard to pick one, but is theresomething that really stands out
to you over the years?

Speaker 3 (29:29):
It is so hard and we get this question a lot and I
still don't have a solid answer,but I can answer it.
More is in regards as a themeof episode that really resonates
and sticks with me, and that'sanything that has to do with
human wildlife conflict, and themost popular episode that we

(29:50):
have covered in that space isdefinitely Night of the
Grizzlies, which Cassie alludedto earlier on in our
conversation.
It's a very popular story andvery condensed version version.

(30:11):
National parks in the past, inages of old, used to publicly
feed their wildlife and, inparticular, bears.
They did this in Glacier, inthe Great Smoky Mountains and in
other various parks as a formof tourist attraction.
Park rangers would do this.
They encouraged visitors to doit.
It was a bad practice all around, but essentially that was the
norm and at this point in timein Glacier National Park that

(30:34):
was happening on a regular basisand it led to food-conditioned
bears and bears who werestarting to lose their fear of
humans and starting to associatehumans with food and
understandably so and that kindof snowballed and as a result,
two young women in two differentparts of the park were mauled

(30:56):
to death and partially consumedby two different grizzlies on
the same night, and not only isthat unbelievable and
horrifically tragic, but it wasunheard of, because up until
that point, there were nodocumented grizzly maulings.
And so that story in particularnot only has a lot of shock

(31:16):
factor and horrific details, butalso there is this huge
underlying lesson of why didthis happen?
Is this huge underlying lessonof why did this happen?
Let's trace this back and seewhat culminated, what
circumstances had to cometogether to create this type of
scenario and what can we do tochange that.
It wasn't just these two roguebears that had behavioral issues

(31:42):
that were one-offs.
This was indicative of a muchlarger problem and one that we
were going to see in the futurehappen more often if we didn't
change our behaviors and ourrelationship with wild animals
and how we treat them.
And that incident, as awful asit was, really sparked

(32:02):
widespread change throughout theNational Park Service as a
whole different parks and theway that we recreate and rules
that we need to keep in mindwherever we are when it comes to
being good stewards of not onlythe land you know not littering
, putting your trash away butalso in the ways that we

(32:24):
interact with wildlife and theimplications that it can have if
we don't follow thoseregulations, not only for people
, but also bad things that couldhappen to the animals.
And that's just a long windedway of saying I really love
episodes that just showcasehuman wildlife dynamics and that

(32:46):
there's usually a reason foranimals attacking people if we
really think about, you know,larger themes and that is shown
in a lot of different waysthroughout all of those
different episodes that we coverthat that center on animal
attacks.
So, yeah, that's definitely myfavorite.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
And it's, yeah, really good reminders for sure,
because again, I think andthat's an interesting, just
contextual story too about theseplaces that are conservation
minded we're feeding animals,like in public and doing all
this stuff and how it leads up,and I think that's a cool story
about the I don't know progressof science and the way that we
approach knowledge and sometimeswe don't know what we don't

(33:30):
know and we do things because wedon't understand them and then
we know better and then we tryto do better.
I think that's really cool.
It's a good time to take aquick break, I think, and then
when we come back, I want totalk a little bit more about
lessons we can take from natureand spending time from nature
and how to be better.
Like you were talking aboutstudents, I'll talk real quick
and be right back.

(33:50):
Hey there, welcome to themid-roll.
I'm so excited to see you here.
Make sure you water your houseplants and tell them.
I said hi Y'all.
How great are Cassie and Daniel.
I've learned a lot already justlistening to them and also,
again, it's just been such awonderful conversation and I
really enjoy talking to them.
But thank you for being part ofplant apology.

(34:10):
Thanks for all the comments,for listening, for following
along, for sticking with usthrough so much over the past
six or more years.
If you want to support the show,there's a lot of ways to do it.
You can go to plant apologypodcastcom and find all things
plant apology for past episodes,to contact information to merch
.
I would love if you did thatand check it out.
If you have comments, feedback,everything, anything else about

(34:31):
the show, please email me atplanthropologypod at gmailcom or
you can hit me up on socialmedia.
I'm the plant prof, all theplaces and planthropology is
also on facebook and instagramas planthropology pod.
Go check us out, connecteverywhere you.
If you'd like to financiallysupport the show again, you can
go pick up some merch at thewebsite or go to buymeacoffeecom
slash planthropology and forthe price of a cup of coffee you

(34:53):
will pay for hosting fees andthings like that, but also
mostly coffee.
Thanks so much to the TexasTech Department of Plant and
Soil Science and the DavisCollege of Agricultural Science
and science and natural resourcefor letting me do the show and
for being so supportive over allthe years.
If you are the review and ratingtype of human being, please do
that.
Go to spotify or apple podcastor podchaser anywhere else that

(35:15):
you can leave a rating andreview, and please do.
I am partial to five stars, butyou can be honest and maybe, if
you're going to be too honestand like, give me a one star and
just a frowny face, whichsomehow would be even more
emotionally devastating.
You just been straight out meanto me.
Shoot me an email first, let meknow how I can do better.
I would love to do that.
But again, if you have guestideas, episode ideas, please let

(35:37):
me know.
Be sure to go subscribe toNational Park After Dark and we
talk about it at the end of theepisode.
But Cassie and Danielle alsohave a new show called Watch
your Cook about the greataccomplishments of women
throughout time, and it's reallyjust fascinating stories and I
think that's something that youshould subscribe to as well.
So let's get back to theepisode.
We'll talk some more aboutnational parks and how to be

(35:57):
better users of public lands.
We talked a little bit beforethe break about telling good
stories, how that matters fornature, but I think we learn a
lot from being out in nature,from just taking part in it.
What kinds of things can welearn?
What have you learnedpersonally in your own lives, or
just greater truths about theworld, from spending so much

(36:20):
time like you said earlier,cassie unplugged, without cell
reception, and around trees andanimals?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
I think it's so important to make time for it.
Honestly, what I've learned isthat one I feel a lot more at
peace in the outdoors.
If I'm stressed at all, a walkoutside helps.
Even if it doesn't fix myproblems, it at least helps it.
I think it's so important tofind some type of connection

(37:03):
with nature, even if you're in acity.
There's parks you can go to,there's a tree that you could
sit at a long walk every day, ormake time to bring hikes into
my life and make sure that I'mgetting out and doing things
that I really enjoy.
Is the outdoor space such awonderful, peaceful, reflective

(37:26):
place to be?
But there's also a reallylovely community of people there
as well.
So if you're looking forfriends or a community that you
can trust, the outdoors is sucha great place for that.
There's so many Facebook groupsnowadays that just have hiking
in so-and-so community.

(37:48):
Just type in your town andhiking and something will pop up
.
And I think that the biggesttakeaway that I've really gotten
from nature is that it's soimportant to.
It's so easy to be so consumedin your phones and your
computers and what's going onthe news, and it's just so
overwhelming and I feel likemore and more we're taking so

(38:09):
much screen time, but nature isso important to sit back and be
like let's get grounded, let'sreflect on what I need, what I
want, get some of the stress,whatever I'm feeling out and
actually be more present, andnature is such a great place to
do that for me, the biggestthing that I've taken away from

(38:35):
my time in nature is it is sovery humbling and I think that
being in nature is a wonderfulway to remind yourself that you
are not the center of the worldand you're just a very small
piece of it, and that is reallyhard to do in your day-to-day

(38:59):
life without inserting yourselfinto a space that is such a huge
reminder of that.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
I mean, everybody's day-to-day is all about you and
your problems and what you needto do and your to-do list and
it's you know, it's a veryday-to-day life, for the average
person, especially here in theUnited States, is very
self-focused and it's hard tobreak away from that just

(39:27):
because of the way that life isright now and how we things are
set up.
You know, it's no one's fault,it's just kind of is what it is.
But being outdoors is theperfect way to remind yourself
that there are other thingsgoing on in the world.
It's not all about you.
The world doesn't revolvearound you.

(39:48):
There's actually a lot of otherthings going on and when you
look at nature you see thateverything just plays a small
role in the bigger picture andit's a great way to make that
you know, implement that andweave that into your own life
and it's just a great way to,you know, kind of zoom out and

(40:10):
look at the bigger picture ofthe world, but also your world
and your life.
And you know, you don't need tohave a big grand adventure and
get lost and almost die and belike, oh my God, you know, it's
just you can go for a simplewalk in the woods and be
observant and, like Cassie said,it's a great way to ground
yourself and really reflect andfor me, the humbling part of

(40:34):
nature is what I take away fromthe most.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, I think humbling is a good word.
So I just one of my hobbies isI do nature photography and
astrophotography and I got outto.
We spent two or three days outin far West Texas and there's an
observatory out there and allkinds of stuff, but I think
people never see the stars and Ithink we don't remember that

(41:01):
sometimes.
That you get out there andthere's so much out there, not
just in the parks but just inthe universe, and being able to
spend some time away fromeverything and just remember
that, I think, like both of yousaid, is such a big deal.
I feel like we would all bebetter off if we got away from
city lights every now and then,If everyone was like okay, this

(41:24):
is your week, go away and justspend some time looking at the
sky.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Well, there's a reason in my mind that you know
that comeback for.
If so, you know, especially oninternet on the internet
comments, threads of things,when people are arguing and
somebody's comeback that Ialways think is so perfect is go
touch some grass.
It's so true because it's likethe root of that is go outside

(41:51):
and ground yourself and realize,you know, like get in touch
with reality here, and there's areason that there's a
connection to going outside andbeing in nature, like that.
I think that comeback is soperfect Go touch some grass,
it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah yeah, I laugh every single time I see that.
But also going back to what yousaid with how you do
astrophotography, I think that'sa really cool moment when you
were talking about it.
What I was thinking of is whenyou're doing that and you're
looking up at the sky, you areone seeing something that's so
beautiful, but also somethingthat's so much bigger than

(42:33):
yourself.
And it's this moment where youfeel like this tiny little speck
in the world and you just seehow vast and beautiful the not
just the world, but the universereally is, and sometimes that's
just such a it sounds scary andexplanation, but in practice
it's such a really cool feelingto be like I'm just this tiny

(42:54):
little speck in this giantbeautiful place.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah and oh, and I that it's interesting.
You say that cause I get thatcomment sometimes from people.
Does that not freak you out?
And like I think the first timeit did.
I grew up in the city and asfar as it goes like it's not a
big city but still you don't seeall the stars.
I think the first time I waslike, oh my God, that's
incredible and it does make youfeel small.
But how cool is it that?

(43:19):
Like we're little pieces of allof that stuff out there and we
get to look at it with our eyesand a camera and experience it
and get to know how bears act inthe woods and how bristlecone
pines grow for 5,000 years, andall these things that are just
little pieces of knowledge ofour universe experiencing itself

(43:40):
, and it's just, I don't know.
It's the coolest thing to me.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, how special is it that we get to be here to
experience all these veryspecial and intricate pieces of
nature in the world.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Absolutely.
I think that's a good segueinto talking a little bit about
responsible recreation and allthe stuff going on right now.
Like our public lands are verymuch at risk, maybe more than
they have been in a hundredyears more than a hundred years
and you know, with staffingissues, one week all of these

(44:18):
people have jobs park rangersand the next week they don't,
and they have jobs again and thewhole thing is just crazy.
But for me it drives home myresponsibility as someone who
uses the outdoor spaces.
Would y'all talk a little bitabout your thoughts on
responsible recreation?
As people who spend a lot oftime out there, what should we
be doing?
How do we be good stewards ofwhat we have?

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, I think that's a great question and a really
important one to bring up rightnow, especially just with the
political climate that'shappening and what is going on
with our public lands and thestaffing shortages.
It's important for people whoare recreating outdoors to
understand what theirresponsibility is, and I think

(44:57):
that people are going to have tobe a lot more cognizant of what
they're doing in the outdoorsand make sure that you're
cleaning up every piece of trashthat you bring, because if you
drop a wrapper and you thinksomeone's going to pick it up,
that might not be the caseanymore.
I think people have to beprepared that when they go to
national parks, these bathroomfacilities that are usually open

(45:22):
at trailheads aren't going tobe open anymore and you're going
to have to make sure you pack ashovel and bring toilet paper
with you, bring means to throwit away and be good stewards.
Otherwise, you're going to bewalking into really gross places
, if not only you.
If you drop a wrapper andyou're like oh, it's just one
wrapper, but there are 20,000people visiting the park that

(45:46):
day and 10,000 of them also dropa wrapper, that is, it's going
to add up very quickly and Ithink people really need to
consider all of the work thatthese staffing shortages are
losing, and they can come inreally small forms, like picking
up your trash or making surethat you bring supplies to use

(46:08):
the bathroom in the outdoors,but they also come in a lot
bigger forms as well, especiallywhen we're recreating outside.
Some of these staffing cuts aregoing to impact are going to
impact resources for search andrescue and for rangers that can
come get you so now, and it'salso going to impact how many
people are going to be there tohelp you plan out your hikes.

(46:31):
So not only are you losing someof your resources to find safe
places to recreate in theseparks that you're visiting, but
also, once you go out there,there might be no one who can
help you if you twist your ankleor you have a medical emergency
or you're doing somethingextreme and you get very injured
.
It is something that you needto really think about now and

(46:55):
make sure that you have a backupplan to self-rescue.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, we spoke to several different employees from
the National Park Service andthe Forest Service regarding
their employment statuses andtheir experience with this.
All the events that haveunfolded over the last couple of
months and their biggesttakeaways were just make sure
you're doing everything we'vealready been telling you to do,

(47:22):
but make sure you do it, becausethere are really big
consequences, potential bigconsequences, if you don't Are
very adamant with you.
Know they want people to stillgo to parks.
They just want them to be awarethat their experience will
likely be different, with longerwait times, being kinder and
more patient with not only parkstaff that remains there but

(47:46):
also other visitors.
You know, be kind andunderstanding that if the trail
is more crowded than usual or ifthere's trail debris that
hadn't been cleaned up yet, justunderstanding that staff
shortage is there, but alsoother visitors for that, and
they're doing the best that theycan.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's important tosay too that these folks are
still working so hard.
Like I, we visited two nationalparks over spring break big
bend and then Guadalupemountains in again far West
Texas and yeah, you could tellthat they were a little wild
around the eyes and tired andall that, but they everything is
still so nice and so they'reworking so hard.

(48:28):
And it's interesting you talkabout being careful and thinking
more about the risks we'retaking because I'll be very
honest, I would go and camp mywife and son.
That's a harder sell.
They're very much okay, but Idon't have Wi-Fi here.
My son is about nine.
What do you mean?
I can't charge my switch.
I don't understand.
But even like we were talkingabout hiking, or trying to like

(48:49):
work towards hiking GuadalupePeak, which is a pretty
strenuous, it's like an eighthour hike, it's pretty tough,
and then we started talkingabout it on the way home.
That really puts intoperspective like it's something
we want to do, but with staffingissues and rescue and all of
that, we really have to thinkcritically about.
Is this something we're willingto go and do, to see something
that's just incredible, that twoyears ago, three years ago, we

(49:12):
would have been just like I willdo it.
It's fine there's people outthere to come help us, which
maybe was not a good attitudethen?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Probably not, it was not a good attitude, then, but
especially, it's very much frontof mind, yeah, but it is almost
like a security blanket whereyou know that there's some type
of services out there.
If something horrible was goingto happen, of course you're
going to do everything in yourpower to make sure it doesn't.
But to have a security blanketof someone can reach me here,

(49:39):
someone knows where I am, isreally nice to have, and I think
that there are ways where youcan combat these issues that are
happening, especially if youwant to go out on some adventure
that you've never done before.
But now you really have tothink about stuff like search
and rescue and if you'reprepared.
But often in these areasthere's local guiding companies

(50:00):
that are more than happy to helpyou recreate in these areas,
that know the landscapes verywell, and that doesn't mean that
nothing is going to happen andit's completely safe.
You can't guarantee that, butat least you're with very
experienced professionals whocan make sure that you do it in
the safest way possible.
So there are ways around it,but it is.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
You have to make sure there are these considerations
now that there are thesestaffing shortages so in in
talking with some of thenational park staff, and outside
of one, being a little bit morethoughtful about leave no trace
and some of the stuff we'vebeen talking about, and also
outside of just like buying asmuch as you can from national
park gift shops, which those arejust like such financial traps

(50:45):
for me.
I'm always like I don't needanother mug.
But I walk into a place and I'mlike crap, like I've got
another mug.
I don't know where to put it.
In talking to these employees,are there other things we can be
doing?
Is there some like mutual aidprograms, like how else can we
help?

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, that's also a really good question.
There are lots of ways to help.
There's monetary ways that youcan help the National Park.
There's the National ParkFoundation, which you can
directly donate to.
There's also the NationalForest Foundation if you're
recreating in national forests,that you can directly donate to.
But more often than not, theseplaces need volunteers and it's

(51:27):
not just national parks thatneed them.
It is outdoor spaces all aroundyou.
If you don't live near anational park, looking at a
state park or a national forestor whatever, there are so many
volunteer opportunities outthere that are trail clearing,
they're trash pickup, they'repeople to help give information

(51:50):
at the information office.
There's so many littlevolunteer opportunities that
exist that I think are such acrucial way to help, especially
in a time that there are suchstaffing shortages.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Wow, I looked at the time and we're at 54 minutes, so
this has gone pretty quick.
Just fascinating talking toy'all.
But as we start thinking aboutwrapping up here, I just have a
couple of questions.
I want to ask and this isprobably one you get all the
time but what is your favoritenational park and why?
Problems?

(52:27):
And we lost part of her answerto this question.
But basically she went back towhat she talked about at the
beginning of the episode, whereshe mentions the yellow stone is
currently her favorite park andit's because of her history
there, in her memories and stuffthere.
But then she does go on toelaborate a little bit more and
I'll let her do that.
I just want to let you knowthat there was a portion here
that got cut out.
Okay, back to daniel.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
But that aside, I really love all the wildlife
there and the different effortsfor reintroduction of certain
animals there, specifically thewolf, kind of like stepping
stone for people to.
It's kind of like a greatintroductory park as well as a

(53:13):
park that could serve for themost experienced park goers,
because most of the park wellover 90% of that park is
backcountry and most visitorsnever see most of Yellowstone.
But for the people who do goand see that you know one to
five percent of the park it's soworth it and it's so beautiful

(53:35):
and it has all of America'siconic wildlife and it just
serves as such a greatexperience.
And of course I havesentimental ties to Yellowstone
as well.
So that's my reasoning.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
And my favorite one is right next door.
I really love the Grand Tetons.
It is somewhere that I've hadreally wonderful experiences in.
I had a lot of firstexperiences there.
I would say it's the firstnational park I've lived near.
It's the first national park Iever went rock climbing in.
It's the first national parkthat I saw in Mooson, which was

(54:12):
exciting.
I just had a lot of firststhere and it's so beautiful that
I also.
I guess there's a lot ofsentimental value that goes into
my reasoning there.
However, I will say that Ithink that my favorite national
park will be Glacier NationalPark in Montana once I go there

(54:33):
but I have not.
I am going this summer, whichis very exciting.
So I'll have an update if it'smy favorite or not.
But I just have a.
I have a a sneaky suspicionthat Glacier is going to one up
the Grand Tetons once I getthere.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
That's such a beautiful part of the country.
My wife and I one time went toa this is going to sound weird,
but a destination wedding innorthern Idaho and we thought
our friends were out of theirminds.
We're going to make us fly toIdaho and you get up in the
mountains and it's an hour and ahalf or maybe an hour south of
Glacier or near Glacier up there, and it's just incredibly

(55:11):
beautiful that that part of thecountry yeah, the mountains are
just, they're magical, theytruly are I can't wait there.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I know our calendars are marked for the summer, but I
think that's a big, a big partof the national parks you know
kind of tying it back to thebeginning of the conversation
when you were saying how youknow this is like national parks
are like, so they're soimportant, but they're also like
what is more American, you know, than a national park and like

(55:44):
the.
The beautiful part of about theU S national park Service in
particular is, cassie and I havebeen all over the world on our
own and together and withlisteners and we've been to so
many different wonderful places.
But the US I don't know if wereally understand, like, how
good we have it here when itcomes to our public lands.

(56:33):
You know there are certainparks and things like that
internationally that are greatand beautiful and just as
stunning, but the amount of thetemperate rainforest in
Washington and then go over tothe beach in Maine and to Acadia
and here there's just so manydifferent places to have so many
different experiences.

(56:54):
All within this, this, you know, wonderful idea that is
national parks and that's justthe best part is like it is hard
to pick what our favorite isbecause there's so many options.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know it.
So, just hearing y'all talk, myson so badly wants to go to
yellow stone and I think that'swhere we may try to get there
this summer.
It's 17 hours away, so it mayhappen, but we I may get to go
to acadia this summer too, whichwill be nice in when it's 170

(57:30):
degrees in Texas.
I'm going to get out for aminute.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
I'm doing Glendale feel nice and when it's that
warm there.
Yeah, and Acadia, I will sayAcadia is pretty high on my top
list.
I could call it a very closesecond to Grand Tetons, and only
because I was so shocked atAcadia I just when I got there,
it was so magical and it's it'spretty small in comparison to a

(57:56):
lot of other parks, but there'sjust so much packed into this
small area and it's just reallylovely to be there.
So if you're, if you have achance to go this summer, you
absolutely should.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Very cool.
So, as folks that make apodcast, sometimes about spooky
stuff, I always like to ask,when I talk to anyone who works
in this space, like, what's thescariest is maybe not the right
word, but what's the mostunsettling story you've heard?
And just like in a nutshell, soI'll just real quick.
I was like I should go andlisten to all the episodes for

(58:30):
parks I've been to and that'sbeen very fun.
I've been listening to some ofyour back catalog.
So I listened to one from yearsago about Big Bend and I don't
want to spoil it, but the wholetime I was just like, oh my God,
people are what's what.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
People are brutal.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Brutal, yeah, out there right.
What story has given you thatreaction the most?

Speaker 3 (58:59):
God, another tough, tough question.
It's so difficult because thereare so many different
categories of you know.
There's the people, true crime,oh my God, like what are we
capable of doing to one another?
To Like spooky stuff,paranormal, creepy, or you know?

(59:21):
Historic lessons of like God?
We seem to be repeating thesame mistakes over and over.
So it's like, where do we gowith this?
I think that I don't know ifyou have an answer, cassie, but
mine, just that comes off rightoff the bat that I've been
thinking about actually kind ofa lot for an older episode, and
I think it was a bonus episodetoo, so it may not even be on

(59:44):
our main feed, but I covered astory a number of years ago
about a woman named JaneConstantino.
I covered a story a number ofyears ago about a woman named
Jane Constantino and she was ayoung woman that was at the
moment, at the time, in her 20s,living in Colorado, and she was

(01:00:06):
an avid outdoors woman, superyoung, bright, ambitious person,
and she had the idea to bicyclefrom Colorado to the coast of
Washington state and she haddone big bike trips before.
This wasn't her first one, itwas just another adventure she
wanted to do, so she did it andshe was within yards of her
destination, at the shores ofthis beach in Washington, an

(01:00:29):
Olympic National Park, at theshores of this beach in
Washington, an Olympic NationalPark, and she was brutally
murdered at random by anotherpark goer.
She did not know this person,there was no reason, it was
totally random.
Other park goers saw, didn'tsee the actual crime, but saw
him leaving the park with bloodall over him, him, and they just

(01:00:52):
assumed that he was pickingberries.
And because you know why wouldyour brain go to?
He just brutally murderedsomeone and he's casually
walking on the trail back to thetrailhead.
So that one gives me the creepsa lot, mostly because I can see
myself in this young woman, notbecause I loved a bicycle, but

(01:01:16):
because, you know, this is justsomeone who loves the outdoors,
wanted to experience it, wantedto do something for herself, was
minding her own business andwas, you know, just had her life
cut short for no reason.
And you know, I think that'ssomething we come into a lot or

(01:01:38):
run into a lot is, you know,fear of recreating outdoors,
especially as solo women.
And you know there's a lot ofarguments about you know why
that's valid or not, but yeah,in short, just seeing you know
what the dark side of what couldhappen in the outdoors as
anybody man, woman, child youknow, bad things happen to

(01:02:00):
people, no matter where you are,and a lot of times we try and
focus on the good parts ofnature and why you should be
there and but also keeping inmind things that can happen is
gives me the creeps for sureyeah, that's totally reasonable
I guess, for mine goes in.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Uh, I have two.
I guess that bother me thatwe've covered both stories that
I researched and neither of themare true crime.
But one was also a subscriptionepisode, so it's not on our
main feed, but we talked aboutthe Nutty Putty Cave in Utah.
I don't know if you've heardthis story before.
It's very popular and a man wasgoing into a cave I don't love

(01:02:45):
caves anyway, or small places,I'm a little claustrophobic and
he was what is it spelunking?
He was doing that and he went.
He got lost in the passagewaysand he wedged himself where he
was upside down.
But the way where his head wasdown below his feet and the way

(01:03:06):
that he was wedged, he couldn'tbend his legs.
He would have to break hisknees to bend his legs to get
out and they called search andrescue.
But what was so horrific aboutthis specific incident was that
search and rescue got to him andthey stayed with him for a

(01:03:27):
really long time and they weretrying to find ways to get him
out and they couldn't findanything.
They were doing everything theycould.
It was he was in such a tightspace, in such a dangerous area.
They were trying their best andhe was even on his.
He was even on a phone talkingto his wife who was at the top

(01:03:48):
of the cave, like they werereally only a couple of feet
away from each other.
But the search and rescuecouldn't get him out in time and
he died because all of theblood rushed to his brain and
his heart and he ended up.
I think he had a heart attackwas his official cause of death.
I'd's been a while since I'velooked into the story, but that

(01:04:12):
one in particular has always satwith me because Rescue was
there, rescue was trying and itstill couldn't help him in the
fact also that he was on thephone with his loved ones and
there was so much hope that washappening during this whole
story and then for such adevastating outcome, I just that
one's always been pretty toughfor me.

(01:04:36):
And then my second one to alsoget dark and awful.
We covered another story where Icovered a plane crash that
happened in washington dc wherethey crashed into the river
there, the Potomac River.
The plane wasn't de-icedproperly and it took off and

(01:04:56):
immediately nosedived into theriver and it was the middle of
wintertime and search and rescuecame to pull them out but it
was in the middle of the city.
There were tons of onlookers,people were trying to jump in
after Some of the people did getout of the plane and surface.
But it was this huge rescuemission.
And that one personally has satwith me because I don't love

(01:05:19):
flying.
Even though Danielle and I dotravel a lot, as she mentioned,
I don't like flying.
And now, especially in thewinter, I'm like looking at the
plane, so like did they de-icethe wings?
I'm like looking at the planes.
I'm like did they de-ice thewings?
I'm like doing my owninspections, even though I have
no idea what to look for.
But that one's also sat with me.
A bit of oof, that was reallytough, oh man.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, like I, one of my favorite national parks is
Carlsbad Caverns.
It's just the coolest thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
But then I watch some of these like extreme caving
videos.
I'm like, where does this getfun?
That's not.
That doesn't do it for me.
That's not.
Yeah, a big cave I'm cool with.
See the bats and Carlsbad andall the different stalagmites
and stalactites and stuff Great.
But I just don't like smallspaces.
So I agree, like the spelunking, where you're really like
wedging your body into theseholes in the ground and hoping
you can find your way back tosurface is not for me.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
No, thank you.
So just to round things out andwrap up, if there was a piece
of advice that you could or thatyou wanted to leave our
listeners with whether it'sabout the outdoors or favorite
coffee order, really whateverwhat would that be?

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
This is a great question and I don't think my
answer really is outdoorspecific, but can be applied to
the outdoors.
The biggest piece of advice Ihave is to listen to how your
body reacts to differentcircumstances, different

(01:06:51):
situations.
Whenever you have a bigdecision or that saying of like,
what does your gut tell you?
That's there for a reason.
I'm big into listening to yourintuition and paying attention
to what the universe is tryingto tell you, and I think that
your body knows the answer andyour heart knows the answer

(01:07:13):
before sometimes your mind cancatch up and so often we
complicate things by thinkingtoo much about it when we
already know the answer insideof ourselves.
And I think if we paid moreattention to how our body reacts
to things is it a yes, is it ano?
We would cut out a lot of theconfusing parts.

(01:07:35):
So that's my advice is to juststick with leaning more into how
you feel about things at a body, soul level, before your mind
makes things more jumbled.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
That's really good advice.
I think that's good advice.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Beautifully said.
I guess for me, my advice wouldjust be that your time is your
most valuable asset and to useit wisely and to use it in a way
that makes you happy.
I think that people makeexcuses very often of I'm so
busy, I can't do this, I'm toodistracted, I'm too tired,

(01:08:20):
Whatever it is.
If you love the outdoors, findtime to do that.
If you love reading, spend timeto do that.
If you are sitting here andyou're thinking I'm not spending
enough time with my family,prioritize that.
I think that and me included,100% me included there's these
times where I'm like, oh, I'mjust too busy for that, and then

(01:08:41):
you slowly lose yourself inwhat's important, and I just
think that it's so important toprioritize things that are
meaningful to you and don'tprioritize.
Of course, you have toprioritize your job in ways that
if that's your livelihood, butjust to make sure that you are
actively making time for thingsthat are important in your life.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
That's awesome.
Also very good advice.
Thanks so much for being on.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
It's been just a genuinepleasure talking to y'all and
getting to meet you.
As we finish up, plug yourstuff.
What do you have coming up?
Where can we find you?
What else do you want to putout there?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Yeah, so if you want to check out National Park After
Dark, we are on Instagram.
You can check us out there, butalso we are on every podcasting
platform that exists, so youcan check us out anywhere there.
We have our website, which isnpadpodcastcom, where we have a
Trail Tales edition where youcan send in your own stories,

(01:09:39):
and there's a submission linkthere.
Also, for new things, newendeavors that we are up to at
the moment is we just launched asecond podcast which we have
created.
It is called Watch what Cookand it is a podcast that is all
about women throughout historythat have done really incredible

(01:09:59):
things but have maybe notgotten the credit they deserve,
and it's from inventors toactivists to criminal
masterminds just women who havereally broken the glass ceilings
on what women quote unquoteshould be.
So that is coming as well.
That airs April 9th and thenwill be every Wednesday.
So we have, I guess, if youlike National Park After Dark

(01:10:21):
and you want some more, we havethe second podcast as well.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Very cool.
It sounds great.
Again, thank you so much.
I hope actually I think, asthis drops, your show would your
new show would have justlaunched.
So if you're listening to this,go check that out.
And again, thanks so much forbeing on.
This was great and I wish youall the best.
Take care.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Thank you so much.
This was a great conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Y'all, I hope you have the time this summer, or
whenever you listen to this, toget out and experience our
national parks and just ourpublic lands in general.
There is so much space that'sout there for you and it's
beautiful and it's precious andI hope that we experience it.
I hope that we enjoy it and Ihope that we help protect it.
Thanks so much again to Cassieand Danielle for their time and

(01:11:05):
their expertise and theirwonderful insight.
You two were just wonderfulguests and it means just so much
to me that you wanted to be apart of it and that we got to
hang out and chat.
Thanks again to the Texas TechDepartment of Plant and Soil
Science and the Davis Collegefor the support of the show.
Plant Anthropology is hosted,written, produced whatever else
there is to do by me.
Our theme music is by theaward-winning composer Nick

(01:11:28):
Scout and our mid-roll music isby my buddy, Rui.
If you have not checked out hisepisode, you should go do that.
It's great.
But most of all, thanks to youfor listening.
Thanks for being part of thePlantthropology family.
I hope that you are being kindto one another, especially now.
If you haven't to date, maybethat's a good thing to try.
Go do some of that, Keep beingreally cool.

(01:11:49):
Plant people, Keep being safe.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
And I'll see you next time.
Thank you.