Sean Patchett, known online as Garden Guy Muskoka, shares his multifaceted experience in horticulture, from landscape work to science communication, emphasizing the critical importance of context in gardening advice.
• Context is everything when sharing gardening information – advice must be tailored to location, climate, and specific situations
• The internet contains overwhelming amounts of gardening information, requiring critical evaluation and testing
• Working in landscapes requires a jack-of-all-trades approach – from plant care to construction skills
• Well-designed gardens must consider long-term maintenance and how plants will grow over time
• Master Gardeners organizations provide hyper-local gardening advice from trained volunteers
• Approaching gardening with humility allows for continued learning and growth
• Anecdotal evidence has value in horticulture when properly contextualized
• Making mistakes is an essential part of gardening – it's how we learn and improve
Follow Sean at @GardenGuyMuskoka on social media platforms and check out his podcast "Plants Always Win" wherever you listen to podcasts.
As always, thanks so much for listening! Subscribe, rate, and review Planthropology on your favorite podcast app. It helps the show keep growing and reaching more people! As a bonus, if you review Planthropology on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser and send me a screenshot of it, I'll send you an awesome sticker pack!
Planthropology is written, hosted, and produced by Vikram Baliga. Our theme song is "If You Want to Love Me, Babe, by the talented and award-winning composer, Nick Scout. Midroll tunes are by Rooey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is up?
Plant people it's time oncemore for the Plantthropology
Podcast, the show where we diveinto the lives and careers of
some very cool plant people tofigure out what they do, what
they do and what keeps themcoming back for more.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand humble guide in this journey
through the greenest of thesciences and, as always, my
friends, I am so excited to bewith you today.
I have a guest today thatreally I've wanted to have on
(00:21):
the show for a while, and he'salso wanted to be on the show
for a while, but then I kepttaking like long breaks and that
makes it hard right To likehave people on the show.
But you get the privilege ofhearing now from my buddy, sean
Patchett, who you can findonline all over these here
interwebs, as Garden Guy Muskokaand if you're one of my
(00:44):
American friends and Americanlisteners, muskoka is in Canada,
so he's another Canadian.
There have been a lot ofCanadians on the show and I'm
here for it.
They've been really reallyquite wonderful.
So Sean is a multi-talentedhorticulturist he does landscape
work, he does cleanups andplanting, he does propagation.
(01:05):
He's a master gardener up inOntario and he is a wonderful
podcaster and sciencecommunicator, video creator.
I hope you'll go right now, asyou're listening to this, and
follow him all the places AgainGarden Guy Muskoka.
That is spelled with someletters that are not in my brain
right now, but I bet you canfind it and you can click on it
in the show notes.
But we had a really goodconversation about everything
(01:27):
from some of the ins and outs ofcommunicating science carefully
, and I think that's somethingthat's really important to
discuss, especially today, thatwe're giving the appropriate
context and we're looking at howwe explain things well, and
Sean does this really reallyeffectively and he's also just
such a cool guy, just such anice guy.
(01:47):
So I think you're really goingto enjoy this episode.
So, without any further ado,buckle up, let's get into it and
get ready for episode 117 ofthe Plantar Apology podcast with
my good friend, sean Patchett.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh, it's already recording.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
That was fast.
Oh, I like the pre-show garbagetime.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Fair enough.
I don't know.
That's when the organic jokesjust come out.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Maybe this will be organic because it's plants.
This may be the actual opening,Hi Sean.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Hello and welcome to Plants.
Always Win a show where twoOntario gardeners explore the
wide world of horticulture, bustsome myths and answer your
plant and garden questions.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm Sean, I'm Vikram and you're on the wrong show.
Wait, nah, not again.
It keeps happening to you.
That's two in a row, man.
I don't know what's going on.
I'm just really intocross-pollination.
Sean, I'm so excited to haveyou here today.
I like getting to talk to coolpeople that are also my friends,
and so this is exciting.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, it's exciting for me too.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Awesome.
This is not Plants Always Win,though We'll talk about that a
lot and I'm excited that you'redoing that show.
That's so awesome.
But this is againPlantthropology, and, as we do
on Plantthropology, we talkabout cool plant people and you
are one of the cooler, know.
Take a minute, introduceyourself, tell us about Sean.
Where are you from, what do youdo, what do you study or what
did you study, and just anythingthat you would like us to know
(03:28):
about.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh, sure, my name is Sean.
I'm a tourist and I enjoy longwalks on the beach and yeah, no,
coming from you.
That's, that's quite the intro.
I really appreciate that.
Yeah, you also, by the way, areone of the cooler plant people
I know, so I really appreciatebeing here.
So my name is Sean.
I studied horticulture timesome time ago and time is
relative, I don't know and Istudied a CODA program, so
(03:52):
that's a co-op diploma,apprenticeship, and I completed
all that.
And then I fell into thelandscaping side of things
because, as a young man withknowledge about plants, I was
scooped up by some landscapersand it's just a trajectory I
fell into, eventually started myown landscaping and design
business, joined the MasterGardeners of Ontario, which is a
(04:13):
nonprofit organization that youknow, the Master Gardeners, but
of probably Texas, yeah, andthen recently started a podcast,
plants Always Win, partially, Imight say inspired a little bit
by plan Always Win, partially,I might say, inspired a little
bit by planthropology Spoilers.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, you'll be hearing from my lawyers.
I'm just kidding.
No, that's exciting.
Yeah, and when did y'all startthat?
You're just a few episodes, ahandful of episodes in.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
We have now launched 17 episodes.
We breached that.
98% of podcasts that drop offafter the first three.
We started in December, butreally we've been talking about
it for a long time and before myamazing co-host that I have
right now, aaron.
Before that I had tried andtried by myself.
It's a lot of work.
It's a lot to get yourself upand motivate yourself.
(04:59):
It's a lot easier to have asecond person to help motivate
you there.
Yeah, we started early Decemberof 2024.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, cool.
Actually, that's not a badplace to just start a lot of our
conversation, because I think Iwant to get the picture of what
you do.
You know who you are, all that,and a big part of what you do
is science, communication andtalking about plants online and
just working in this plantcommunity quite a bit, and your
podcast is a big part of that,as well as your social media
outlet.
But just give us the rundown onthe show.
What made you y'all decide towant to do it?
(05:31):
What kinds of topics do youtalk about?
What's the format?
Yeah, just give us the elevatorpitch, the elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, the internet is full of garbage, no-transcript
(06:11):
horticulture all of that stuffis context.
Context is the most importantthing.
When you're trying to givepeople advice on the internet,
may is the best time to pruneyour apples.
Where in the bloody world areyou Come on?
Or it really depends on whatyou're trying to achieve.
There's multiple ways of doinganything and unless you have
some sort of HOA or municipalbylaw, you can do whatever you
(06:33):
want, and I like to reinforcethat.
So it's sprouted out of a desireto combat misinformation and
continue learning and, honestly,as an excuse to reach out to
cool people and talk to them too, because, as you're well aware,
we never stop learning right.
We always want to keep.
I'm more of a chaos gremlinwhen it comes to gardening.
(06:53):
I'm a jack of all trades.
I like a little bit ofeverything and I have just
enough knowledge to make medangerous, but not specific
enough in any one particularfield that I would consider
myself an expert in anyparticular thing.
But I like to talk to expertsand see what they have to say,
and all the good ones, likeyourself, for example.
It's going to be a fair degreeof Wickham flattery today.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I'm always down for that.
That's my whole thing.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It helps.
That's how I got here, folks.
Yeah, all the good ones bring,they use a certain terminology.
That's not a definitive hardstance on any one thing, because
it really does depend, and ifyou ask me a question about your
garden or your plants orwhatever, about my favorite food
, anything my answer will almostalways be it depends, followed
by a series of questions orvariables.
(07:41):
And yeah, so that's what we do.
We're focused on Ontario, butof course nature is
international and borders aremade up, and so of course, what
we do touches on other regionsas well.
You can take some of the advicethat we give and apply what is
relevant to your particularsituation or your environment.
We try and do that at least.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, and I think y'all do a great job of it and I
don't.
I really like.
So it's funny because I'm likejotting down quotes You've had.
There's a lot of great.
I appreciate guests that dothis.
No, like the internet side ofthis and the social media side,
because I've got so many greatpoll quotes and like gardens are
international and borders aremade up, would be a great.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Oh yeah, that's a great oh yeah, you can have that
one for free.
Hey, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But you're right, like I think, even though you're
in Ontario and I want to getinto this in just a second some
of the differences in gardeningbetween, like where I live,
where you live, but the thingsthat you talk about, the
concepts you cover, the specificsituations that you get into,
might be applicable in 100places around the world or in
different places at differenttimes of the year, and I think
that's such a cool opportunitythat we have as educators.
(08:47):
That has never really been athing in the past.
Right, this is the one of thefirst times in our human history
that we have the opportunity tocontextualize things so well
for so many people.
But on the other side of that,like you were talking about
earlier, the internet's full ofgarbage of people that are.
There's no context.
Context is not real.
I'm gonna stick this kiwi in abanana and we're gonna see what
(09:08):
happens.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I get there's yeah, and that's one very obvious side
of the garbage internet.
But there are some that likevery well-meaning and I wanna
give them the benefit of thedoubt.
There's a sweet older fellowfrom Australia and I do follow
him because what he's saying isreally cool and I like his
passion.
But when he says this is thebest ground cover for your lawn,
(09:30):
and I'm like again, you have to.
I can't just take theassumption of what your accent
is to deduce where you are inthe world.
It's not fair.
I don't have that plant.
That's a beautiful plant, but Ican't have that.
And now they're on YouTube,they're on TikTok, they're
reaching an internationalaudience.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Absolutely, and I do think that's why context, at the
end of the day, is everything.
Context matters so much, likeyou're talking about and making
sure that people reallyunderstand that, and I think
it's dangerous too from agardening standpoint.
Dangerous is maybe oversellingit just a little, but if people
are trying to, I think the worstthing we can do as content
creators, as educators, is belike this is the absolute best
(10:08):
thing without knowing thecontext, because then people get
discouraged.
Right, they go out and they trytheir even if it's not a plant
hack their well-intentionedpiece of advice and it kills
their tomatoes or it justdoesn't work, and then it drives
them off from this thing.
That's very like empowering andfulfilling and I think we have
to be really careful about that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, you know what?
I'm gonna throw myself underthe bus here for a second.
I gave a little.
This was three years ago, but Idid this video on a good way to
repel squirrels temporarily.
It's just something that kindof pisses them off when you're
planting bulbs in the fall.
So if you plant bulbs and youuse a product called hen manure,
which is a pelletized,composted chicken poop, when
(10:48):
they dig down into the soil toget to the bulb, for whatever
reason, they seem to not like it.
This isn't science, this isanecdotal evidence, and I said
that In my experience.
This works for me and I got somuch hate from people saying
chicken poop is dangerous, itcarries these pathogens, it's
going to nitrogen, burn yourplants and I'm like, technically
, all of that is true if we'retalking about raw chicken poop.
(11:10):
But that's the context, right.
That's the subtlety, that'swhat they picked up on, that's
what they didn't hear or didhear, and I'm still today
getting hate messages from stufflike that.
It encourages me to be a littlebit more introspective with the
things that I put out on theinternet.
(11:31):
I'm definitely a lot morecautious than I used to be.
I dwindled down what I wasputting out there.
Tiktok is full of people veryquick to give you their opinions
and their anecdotes.
And then Facebook is full ofpeople willing to give you their
facts.
And I'm not going to say thefacts, these are their facts.
And that's good, yeah.
And oh boy, it's a verydangerous place and once upon a
time I used to have a bit morelet's call it youthful arrogance
(11:51):
where I still have it.
But I used to think I would heara question about lawn care or
about gardening or whatever, andI would think, wow, what a lazy
question, how silly, how stupid.
Why don't you just go to theInternet?
Why don't you just look it upyourself and find out?
And then I started doing that.
I started going to the internetand I started realizing, hey,
maybe it's not a stupid questionbecause the internet's saying
(12:12):
you can do this or that or this.
It's recommending theseproducts, but they're not
available in your country.
So maybe these products and youcan do whatever.
And then you go to social media, where there are these forums,
these garden groups, thesewell-meaning individuals, and
you ask the same question andyou'll get dozens, if not
hundreds, of answers.
And I realized at that momentwow, there really is no such
(12:35):
thing as a dumb question.
There are lazy questionssometimes, sure, but it's good
to ask other people sometimesand not just rely on the
internet sometimes and not justrely on the internet.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think a big part of doing that because I do see
that a lot I see you could justGoogle it.
Okay, it's social media for areason, right, there's the
social part of it that we'resupposed to be doing and I've
fallen into that too.
I think that's it's easy to dowhen it's this is such a simple
thing, but the things that arelike simple and easy for me are
not the same for everyone.
Right, and like you're talkingabout, you Google something and
(13:10):
it's okay.
Here's 5,000 results.
Good, so much of it is just howdo you evaluate information?
How do you find the rightinformation?
How do you critically parsethrough all of this stuff that's
out there and make it makesense, but also make it, say,
make sense in a way that'sactually real, because lots of
it makes sense that turned outnot to be true.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, even right now, the internet and search engines
are getting worse, or at leastmore troublesome, because if you
go to Google and ask it aquestion, you have a full,
articulate sentence right here.
It will give you an AIgenerated answer based on
information that it scrubbed.
But AI currently, as of thetime of this recording and my
(13:49):
understanding of how it works.
I could be wrong here, I'mtalking out of my butt, but AI
is a sentence filler.
It will automatically fill thatsentence.
It makes sense and you can readit, but it might not be
accurate, it might not be real,it doesn't fact check, it
doesn't search for you, and soit's an AI generated.
Here's probably the answeryou're looking for, which is a
dangerous thing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
For sure, and to like circle this conversation back
just a little bit, I thinkthat's actually a good time to
talk about some of thedifferences.
We find right, because it's aswe record this, it's April 9th,
okay, and where I live, in Texas, we had a big cold snap.
This big.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay, let's couch that in for Texas.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
It was cold.
We got down in the 20sFahrenheit.
We got some snow on Saturday,which is not super unusual for
us for April.
But it doesn't happen a ton.
Right, it happens, it justdoesn't happen a ton.
But a lot of people got realgung-ho and went out and planted
tomatoes and stuff and thatturned out to not be great, but
for you in Ontario you were justtelling me you got a foot of
(14:48):
snow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah.
So we had fall spring twicewhere the weather was beautiful,
and for us, fall spring interms of Celsius.
I do apologize to your Americanlisteners.
I'm familiar with Celsius.
If it's above zero degreesCelsius is when snow melts, and
if the sun hits it it meltsfaster.
We had a few days where it wasabove almost 10 degrees Celsius
and I'm out there in a t-shirtLike it's so lovely, and then it
(15:11):
goes back to negative 10, whichis pretty cold.
I'm not in my full snowsuitregalia or anything like that.
We had almost no snow left andthen two days ago we had about a
foot of snow overnight.
Wow, just on the yeah.
The two week forecast showssomewhere between 10 and
negative 10.
It's just going to befluctuating quite a bit and
there's a lot of people outthere who are saying, oh, I just
(15:32):
want to, I'm sick of winter, Iwant to get out there.
I'm like it's still April.
This isn't new to us.
This isn't new around here.
I understand depression, theexcitement about going out in
the spring.
I get that.
We're still in early April.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
It's normal, yeah, and that's it.
But that really, I think,drives home some of this
conversation too, of if someonewatched my video, right, if I've
made a video today, if I wentout and made a video today and
said, hey, we're past the dangerof freezes, even if I couch
that in Lubbock Texas, we'reprobably past the danger of
freezes, probably fine to goplant your tomatoes and peppers
and whatever.
I'm still not real confident inthat.
But someone in the northeasternUnited States or in Canada or
(16:13):
someone may watch that and onlyhere go plant your.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, exactly, it's, yeah, and along with that
there's so, yeah, I'm, I inCanada, I'm exposed to a lot of
American gardeners because my myalgorithm feeds me plant people
and I appreciate that so much.
But the people out there makinggarden content, or the people
out there who don't have winterright now, and and I get that
jealousy, I do, I feel it, but Iknow where I live and I know my
(16:39):
own limitations.
And the other part of that isis we can get into products, for
example, the USDA hardinesszone versus Canadian hardiness
zones.
The vast majority of ourproducts are labeled with the
USDA hardiness zone anyways, andyet you've got Canadian
gardeners who are talking aboutthe Canadian hardiness zone.
I'm like it doesn't apply toeven Canadian average Joe,
(16:59):
everyday people, because whatthey buy at the garden center is
still USDA.
And so trying to yeah, I don'tknow how else to say context is
the most important thing.
If you're out there getting orgiving any gardening advice, ask
the questions, and if somebodyasks the question, don't be
insulted that, oh, I forgot.
Yeah, that's also.
I should have mentioned that.
That's very important, yep.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yep, and that's and I think that's a great reminder
thinking of as educators,because we are in different
contexts, right, and I thinkwe're all teaching something.
We're all giving information,whether it's good information,
bad information.
I think everyone out thereneeds to understand that you may
be making a silly video yellingabout bananas, whatever right,
whatever it is, people aretaking that information and
(17:41):
digesting it and working it intotheir worldview and all of that
stuff.
And that is such a weird thingto think about as an educator,
as a content creator, that like,oh no, people actually care
what I think, or maybe they'remad about what I think, or
whatever.
I have a question.
I think you've answered this insome ways, but I want to ask it
maybe a little bit differently,as someone who started in the
(18:01):
landscape field, who has avariety of experiences and a
variety of industry sort of endsto horticulture.
What made you want to tacklethis whole thing that we do?
Are you also a glutton forpunishment, like me?
What made you make thattransition from I'm someone who
works in the industry, in thefield, planting plants, doing
(18:22):
the thing to?
I really want to tell peopleabout this too.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was a little bit of spite and anger.
If I'm being totally honestwith you here, I'll confess my
sins.
Seeing people give bad adviceso confidently made me angry.
And like I worked for a coupleof landscaping companies and I'd
go to a garden center and I'dhear a customer talk to one of
the garden center employees andthey're trying to upsell this
plant and this product and blah,blah, blah.
(18:45):
And I'd go to a garden centerand I'd hear a customer talk to
one of the garden centeremployees and they're trying to
upsell this plant and thisproduct and blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like that's not whatthey asked, that's not good,
that's not and I don't know.
Eventually I took to theInternet and yeah, I see a lot
of it besides five minute crafts, besides stuff like that.
I wanted to share knowledge ina way that doesn't shame people
(19:09):
for not having that knowledgeand I try really hard, but
sometimes people get offended,no matter what you do.
And yeah, I think that there isa tie, a relationship that
should be addressed right now inthe world of gardening and
horticulture at large, which isanecdotal evidence which, in my
opinion, has a place in science,because our anecdotes are our
experiences.
We are all a product of our ownexperiences, our observations.
(19:30):
What happens to us, whathappens to me, might be very
different than what happens tomy neighbor.
We could be, we could havealmost a completely identical
property but for whatever reason, my garden flourishes and
theirs doesn't, or the other wayaround, or the deer go to their
garden but they don't come tomine.
That sort of contrast of ourexperiences has a place in
science, has a place in theeducation world, and I think
(19:52):
right now there's a lot of that.
I believe iNaturalist is doing abig citizen science thing.
That's mostly foridentification.
But there are other avenuesthat are I don't know how to
hokey pokey that I don't want tomake fun of anyone.
I'm doing this right Like I'mstepping on my own toes here,
throwing myself under the bus.
But there are some avenues ingardening.
(20:14):
When you talk about lunarcycles and stuff like that and
I'm like, oh, that's cool, and Iagree that the moon exists and
I agree that the reflection oflight off the moon probably has
some sort of bearing on theenvironment, whether that's
insects or plants or whatever.
I don't think that the lunarcycle has to do with the growth
of my tomatoes, but maybe itdoesn't, as a passive example of
(20:34):
anecdotal things.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I agree with you.
I think the anecdote andthere's a saying that a couple
of podcasts I listen to say thatthe plural of anecdote is not
data.
Saying that a couple ofpodcasts I listened to say that
the plural of anecdote is notdata and I agree with that.
However, I also agree that thefoundational part of scientific
inquiry is experience andquestions and observation.
Right, that is where we start.
(20:57):
People started doing sciencebecause they looked up at the
sky and they saw that the moonexplodes every day or it goes
away, or it's dark, darksometimes, or today it's not
here, and this plant grows andit flowers on this day over here
, but it doesn't flower on thisday over here.
And then we start to ask why.
And we have to have thatinitiation of curiosity to get
(21:17):
anywhere in science, like it isintegral to the scientific
process.
And there are some things outthere that are very like woo,
like all day talk about the oh,what do they call it?
Electro horticulture, stufflike that all day.
And it's not because the ideais absolutely insane, because
(21:37):
there are insane sounding ideasthat turn out to be true.
It's because someone has hadthis idea in the past and then
they tested it and it didn'twork, and because someone has
had this idea in the past andthen they tested it and it
didn't work, and because of that, at least in the context that
it was tested, I can sometimespretty confidently say, yeah,
okay, like you're saying, Iunderstand the thought, like I
understand the framework you'recoming from, but let me show you
(21:57):
where it's been done and why itdoesn't work.
And maybe here are betteralternatives.
And I think we as sciencepeople, as science communicators
, as knowledgeable gardencreators, have a really fine
line to tread of making surewe're not diluting our message
and making sure we're tellingthe truth but also not being
jerks about it.
There's a good and bad way todo it.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, that's such an important factor.
Oh my goodness.
So one of the most infamouspieces of plant media that
circulates, it has its waves, itcomes and it goes and you know
it and it keeps coming back isthe NASA houseplant air
filtration thing, and that wasthe history behind it.
(22:37):
Essentially, they don't reallyfilter the air, they don't
really remove toxins.
There's an argument to be madeabout VOCs, whatever, but that's
also not how the experimentworked and it was a
misinterpretation that led to anarticle and then it was a quote
of that article and then itjust became a wild game of
telephone reporting to a pointof content creators now, who
(23:00):
just perpetuates this.
It's widely known fact thatplants filter the air.
For you, I'm like, you cancrack a window an inch and get
better air filtration in yourhouse.
It's.
Having 10,000 plants in yourhouse is not feasible.
You will, it's.
But yeah, that's trying to talkabout those things without
being a jerk.
It's tough sometimes whenyou're as passionate about these
(23:24):
things and people who are justperpetuating these lies and they
don't know, they didn't look itup, they don't bother to look
it up, or maybe they do know, sothey're either ignorant or
willfully ignorant and it'sinteresting because those things
are very different, right Fromthe intent standpoint.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
like I can excuse ignorance, like I can there's,
if we wanted to talk about allthe things I don't know, like
how much time you got, we canfill an ocean, right you?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
don't know what you don't know.
Yeah, exactly, there's so muchout there that you'll never know
, because you can't think aboutit in order to ask the questions
, to learn about it.
You don't know the things thatyou don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Exactly, and then?
But then when we do, then we dostart to get glimpses of oh,
maybe I've been wrong thehumility sometimes of having to
take a step back.
You'd be like, no, I was wrongabout this, I didn't understand
this, but now I do.
And I think, once we dounderstand, at that point we
have a responsibility to adjustour frameworks, to adjust our
way of thinking, to make surethat we're finding out and then
(24:21):
telling the truth, and move froma place of passive ignorance or
unintentional ignorance toknowledge and wisdom and
appropriate use of information,instead of just I am going to
dig in my heels and this is thehill I will die on.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, I think if I were to be able to de-stigmatize
a word, it would be ignorance.
I will admit to you and I willadmit to anyone who is willing
to listen, I am an ignorantwhite man.
That's not a bad thing, that is, I don't know a lot of things,
I'm not exposed to a lot ofother cultures and a lot of
other sciences, and that doesn'thave to be so negative.
(24:58):
There doesn't have to be thisstigma associated with it.
I'm ignorant and very curiousand enthusiastic and I think
that they can go hand in handand then reflect a degree of
positivity in the world ofscience and nature and
environmentalism.
That doesn't have to be sodepressing.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, that's awesome and that's such a good way to
look at it.
I think that's a great time totake a quick break and think
through that and digest that alittle bit, and then, when we
come back, I want to talk aboutsome of the practical experience
you have, too, and some of thelandscape work you do and how
you approach that, again beingin a very cold climate, and then
also the work and the timeyou've spent with the master
gardeners.
We'll hit that after the break,but let's go get a drink of
(25:36):
water and I'll say some randomwords to the people for a minute
.
Sounds good.
All right, we're back.
So, sean, in your day-to-daywhatever that, whatever real job
, day job, whatever you want tocall it you do landscape work
and you actually like put plantsin the ground and get outside
and get your hands dirty, whichis something that I feel is so
valuable in this field, and Ijust want to learn more about
(25:57):
that.
Talk about the kind of work youdo, what kind of landscapes you
like to work in, how does thatlook?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, so currently, I'll say I started my own
landscaping business Time isrelative a couple of years ago,
but before that I was doingresidential landscaping for a
number of years as well, and soit's mostly people's properties
and it's nowadays it's just acouple of cottages and I have my
(26:24):
consistent list of amazing,wonderful clients and I tend to
their properties outdoors.
So I do a lot of lawn andgarden maintenance.
I plant their gardens, I buytheir plants for them, I tend to
their lawns if they even have alawn and then I do their winter
stuff as well shoveling roofsand whatnot.
That's not fun, but it's partof the job, part of it.
(26:45):
I would love to do a little bitmore design work, but that
would entail a bit of a careershift in that I just don't have
time, and so I would need tohire people to do the job that
I'm currently doing for thesewonderful clients that I don't
want to give up.
They're amazing human beings.
I'm at a point where I can catermy own clientele now.
It's wonderful In order to havetime.
(27:06):
I'd have to hire people inorder to have time to do more
essentially, but yeah, that's myday job.
In the winter, I've beenworking with one of my clients
in particular doing constructionand renovation, picking up
skills because they used to doconstruction on yeah, and so he
said he would rather hire me ashis second set of hands than
(27:26):
just hire a crew to do all thisstuff.
And I'm like I don't mind it,you keep me busy in the winter.
It's wonderful, and I'll be sadwhenever that project gets done
.
Yeah, I've got at least onemore winter of work, though.
We're good.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I think that's really interesting and I think that
actually hits on a key point.
Just talking about thisindustry means, I think, when
people hear landscaper, theythink a very I don't know
exactly specific thing.
Like you are same Gamgee,trimming hedges and rings of
power.
That's on my off time.
Yeah, everyone needs a hobby,but in my experience, as someone
(27:57):
who's done it too, it's neverjust.
It's such a diverse job, it'snever just one thing and you
almost have to end up being likea jack of all trades.
You end up having to do alittle bit of construction work.
You do irrigation work, you dolandscaping or you do like plant
care.
You do planting and plantremoval and tree pruning and you
(28:19):
put up holiday lighting and youshovel roofs, and it's never
just one thing.
And I think that's reallyimportant for folks wanting to
get into this industry tounderstand a little bit like
there are firms where it's allI'm going to do is do design
work or I'm going to do this onething, and that's true.
But especially people likeworking for themselves in this
field, you need to learn andit's a cool opportunity to learn
do a ton of different.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Oh yeah, I will say this.
There are a number ofcontractors that do exactly what
you just said One thing, and Iget that.
And a lot of people have thismentality of if you're going to
do something, do one thingreally well.
And I hate it.
And the reason why I hate itbesides the fact that I'm a
little ADHD hobby gremlin thatdoes too many things for his own
good and can't complete a hobbyI just do a lot of things.
(29:00):
Typically, when those people dothat one thing really well,
they don't think about the otherthings.
And let me give you an example.
When I worked for a largercompany before I did my own
thing, there was a landscapedesigner from a city a couple
hours away.
They designed the landscape forthis.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, hey there, welcome to the mid-roll.
How are you today?
How are your houseplants?
I hope they're well.
Give them a nice little pat onthe leaf from me and tell them I
said hi.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode and I hope you've
enjoyed it so far as much asI've enjoyed recording it and
talking to Sean and editing it.
It's fun, by the way.
As an aside, you need to listenback to these and be like, oh
(29:40):
wow, what a great conversation,and this is definitely one of
those.
But thank you so much for beinga part of plant anthropology.
Thanks to the Texas TechDepartment of Plant and Soil
Science and the Davis College ofAgricultural Science and
Natural Resources for allowingme to do what I do and for being
a part of this process allthese years.
Thanks to Sean for being on theshow, but most of all, again,
(30:02):
thank you for being a part of it.
If you'd like to supportPlantthropology, there's a lot
of ways you can do that.
You leave me a rating andreview on any of the rating and
review machines.
You can find out there spotifyor apple podcast or pod chaser
or pretty much probably anywhereyou're listening.
You can follow on social media.
I am planthropology or someversion thereof.
I think I'm planthropology podon the instagrams and some other
(30:26):
version in other places.
I'm on threads now so you canfollow me there too also.
Personally, I am the plant prof, also all those places,
including the YouTubes, and, bythe way, I'm not very good at it
.
But I'm working on getting allof these episodes uploaded in a
video format to YouTube and thatwill happen eventually.
But you can, if you like tolisten to podcasts on YouTube,
(30:46):
subscribe to this there as wellas a podcast feed.
You'll pick up the RSS everytime and you can, I guess, sit
there and stare at the cover artand Sean's lovely face and
listen to it there as well.
But I know a lot of people liketo listen on YouTube.
If you want another way tosupport the show, really the
best thing you can do is tell afriend about it.
That word of mouth and tellingyour friend is the best way to
(31:06):
spread any kind of media,including podcasts.
If you want to pick up somemerch or support the show
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Go to planthropologypodcastcomand click on the merch tab and
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You can get there and you cango to buymeacoffeecom slash
planthropology and, in additionto paying for hosting fees and
(31:29):
things like that, you will buyme caffeine.
This show runs on caffeine.
All right, we're back.
So, sean, in your day-to-daywhatever that, whatever real job
, day job, whatever you want tocall it you do landscape work
and you actually like put plantsin the ground and get outside
(31:50):
and get your hands dirty, whichis something that I feel is so
valuable in this field, and Ijust want to learn more about
that.
Talk about the kind of work youdo, what kind of landscapes you
like to work in, how does thatlook?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So currently, I'll say I started my own landscaping
business Time is relative Acouple of years ago, but before
that I was doing residentiallandscaping for a number of
years ago, but before that I wasdoing residential landscaping
for a number of years as well,and so it's mostly people's
properties and it's nowadaysit's just a couple of cottages,
(32:22):
and I have my consistent list ofamazing, wonderful clients and
I tend to their propertiesoutdoors.
So I do a lot of lawn and gardenmaintenance.
I plant their gardens, I buytheir plants for them, I tend to
their lawns if they even have alawn and then I do their winter
stuff as well shoveling roofsand whatnot.
That's not fun, but it's partof the job, part of it.
(32:44):
I would love to do a little bitmore design work, but that
would entail a bit of a careershift in that I just don't have
time, and so I would need tohire people to do the job that
I'm currently doing for thesewonderful clients that I don't
want to give up.
They're amazing human beings.
I'm at a point where I cancater my own clientele now it's
wonderful In order to have time.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I'd have to hire people in order to have time to
do more no-transcript Because Ithink when people hear
(33:42):
landscaper they think a very Idon't know exactly specific
thing.
Like you are same Gamgee,trimming hedges and rings of
power.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's on my off time .
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, Everyone needs a hobby, but in my experience,
as someone who's done it too,it's never just.
It's such a diverse job, it'snever just one thing and you
almost have to end up being likea jack of all trades.
You end up having to do alittle bit of construction work.
You do irrigation work, you dolandscaping or you do like plant
care, you do planting and plantremoval and tree pruning and
(34:15):
you put up holiday lighting andyou shovel roofs, and it's never
just one thing.
And I think that's reallyimportant for folks wanting to
get into this industry tounderstand a little bit like
there are firms where it's allI'm going to do is do design
work or I'm going to do this onething, and that's true.
But especially people likeworking for themselves in this
field, you need to learn andit's a cool opportunity to learn
(34:35):
do a ton of different stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Oh yeah, I will say this.
There are a number ofcontractors that do exactly what
you just said One thing, and Iget that.
And a lot of people have thismentality of if you're going to
do something, do one thingreally well.
And I hate it.
And the reason why I hate itbesides the fact that I'm a
little ADHD hobby gremlin thatdoes too many things for his own
good and can't complete a hobbyI just do a lot of things.
(34:59):
Typically, when those people dothat one thing really well,
they don't think about the otherthings.
And let me give you an example.
When I worked for a largercompany before I did my own
thing, there was a landscapedesigner from a city a couple
hours away.
They designed the landscape forthis luxury cottage and then
somebody else ordered all theplants from this other place and
(35:21):
plants came in and they werenot in great condition.
It went through a telephonechain and the plants that we
ended up with were not the best.
I wouldn't have picked them.
And then we have them spacedout in such a weird way and put
them in such weird locations,and then what they really didn't
think about which is dig ondesigners specifically is they
don't think about themaintenance and they don't think
(35:41):
about what it looks like afterit's installed.
One month, one year, two years,10 years down the line, what is
that landscape going to do?
Because it's going to grow,it's going to change.
It's going to grow, it's goingto change, it's going to evolve.
How much effort do you want toput in to maintain that sort of
thing?
When you plant like largecommercial properties like that?
I call it commercial stylegardening.
I should say with here's onebig garden with a bunch of one
(36:04):
shrub, just a bunch of them, allof the space in between.
That means you can't have anyother plant or the design is
ruined.
So so anything else thatinfiltrates that space is a weed
and all the space that youleave in between the plants is
space for weeds.
There's no ground cover Halfthe time.
These designers don'tincorporate mulch or maintenance
into these designs.
It really does lend itself tothe success of your work.
(36:27):
If you are a little bit skilledand across the board with all
these different things, I canrepair an irrigation system.
That's not my forte.
I'd much rather contract thatout, but I can.
If I have to, I can build afence Again.
I'd much rather be in thegardens.
But if my clients say, hey, fixmy fence for me, sure, yeah, I
can do that.
So yeah, yeah, being a littlejack of all trades, it really
(36:48):
does help.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And it feeds.
So too, and you made a reallygood point of if you're going to
do design work, if you're goingto be on that part of it, gosh,
it helps to have done theactual work.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Or at least stop and look at the property.
If they get a landscape, likean aerial view of the landscape,
they don't know where the hillsand valleys, they don't know
what's surrounding the property,they just have an overview of
the house or the structure orwhatever and they don't realize
oh, this is South and there aretrees to the South, so really
you have no direct sunlight.
(37:19):
Why are you planting theseplants or whatever?
Yeah, yeah, it helps to havesome experience and to keep
those things in mind.
Like how am I supposed to getfrom the driveway to the
backyard when you landscaped andyou blocked every path back
there?
How am I supposed to get backthere with a wheelbarrow?
Or say I want to rent a skidsteer and do some larger
landscaping for a day, orsomething like that I can't get
(37:42):
there.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's bringing back flashbacks.
So when I was interned withthis landscaper here locally and
we were working on this housethat was built into the side of
a hill a little bit.
So it was interesting becausethe front the first floor patio
and the second floor balconywere both at ground level
because it essentially was likeinto the side of the hill.
So the ground came up andaround the back of the house so
(38:04):
you could walk out your back,his back door and there was like
a garden area, or you couldwalk out the back door on the
second floor and you were justup on the hill, but it was still
also at ground level.
So it's really interesting.
It's cool property.
But the homeowner wanted a waterfeature that started up on the
second floor and flowed downlike waterfall to the first
(38:25):
floor.
And super cool, we can do it,that's going to be great.
But we realized pretty quick ormy boss realized pretty quick
that oh, we can't run a skidsteer up there.
So we mixed concrete or masonrydifferent types of material, we
use concrete and a few otherthings and carried it up the
hill in five gallon buckets tobuild the stream bed that float.
(38:47):
I still think about that job alot, because there's a lot of.
Is this possible?
Absolutely yes, absolutely yes,we can do it.
Is this going to be just likegetting punched in the face?
To do Also yes.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, so I have a similar one.
It's not concrete and cement,that's.
Oh, that's I can only imagine.
And then I'm also envisioningthe maintenance and upkeep with
that and then trying to rebuild.
Or maybe you want to take itdown and do something else.
Oh, that sounds awful.
But I had this one client I nolonger have because, gosh, it
was so frustrating.
(39:21):
They, their gardens, requiredapproximately 27 to 32 cubic
yards of mulch if you wanted toremulch it, and they're
scattered and they have big,uneven stone steps.
They have 62 of them to getfrom the top to the bottom to
the boathouse 62 large, uneven,not flagstone.
(39:43):
We're talking sometimes 12inches, sometimes 8, sometimes
14.
The depth and the.
Yeah, it was like handmade butso poorly thought out.
So I had to wheelbarrow 27yards, plus two extra later, 27
yards of ugly red mulch, veryfluorescent red, like a
(40:04):
charmander, like it was so red,and it went.
I had to wheelbarrow by hand andafter you go down these stairs
awkwardly, you then have to goup the hill into the actual
garden itself.
So then I went I was going downand back up it would take me 20
minutes per wheelbarrow for thelower parts and I'm like it was
(40:25):
mind blowing.
They also, yeah, so in terms ofdesign and maintenance, they
did not think about that.
And the other thing is thatthey had these big beautiful
retaining walls also made out oflarge stones boulders you would
say.
Most normal people wouldprobably say they didn't like
that.
In the cracks of these boulderswas moss, and so they had me
(40:47):
use a trowel to hand scrapebecause they didn't want to
spray the moss, hand scrape themoss off the rocks.
I eventually also had to useI'm not joking was a barbecue
scraper because, yeah, in termsof design and maintenance, this
was unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That's a tough one, yeah, and some of it goes back
to like people don't know.
Sometimes they don't know whatthey don't know and they think
this is what this should looklike, this is what I want it to
look like, and they get set onit.
But to segue a little bit,that's one of the reasons that
organizations like the MasterGardener Association and
community horticulture andeducation associations and
organizations are so important,because it may be that like if
(41:27):
that homeowner or if certainpeople knew oh, maybe this is
not a bad thing.
Maybe having moss here is like anet benefit ecologically or
whatever.
Maybe you didn't have to spenddays scraping rocks with a
trowel and a grill tool.
So let's talk a little bitabout your work and your time in
the Master Gardeners, Becauseyou've I think that's more
recent.
I joined.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I'm getting my five-year pin this year actually
.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So, technically, I joined in the pandemic, I joined
2020 and that was regardless ofthe pandemic.
I actually started looking intolike hort societies and
gardening groups and all thatbecause where we lived, I just
life happens we moved a coupleof times.
I didn't know anybody.
I was looking to socialize withsome garden communities and I
ended up stumbling upon theMaster Gardeners of Ontario and
(42:16):
I thought it was like a club.
I thought it was like aknitting club or something.
I didn't realize what it wasand the more I got to learn, I'm
like oh, this is really cool.
I think you guys might need todo a little better with your
public outreach because I hadnever heard of you before, but
otherwise, that's fantastic.
This is fantastic.
I love this and my experienceis there was an interview, a
(42:37):
meeting with the then supercoordinator for the Muskoka
group.
So in Ontario, the MasterGardeners of Ontario there was
26 different divisions becauseOntario is pretty big, and now I
think there's 25.
I think one group foldedbecause of a lack of membership.
It happens, it's right now.
If I'm being honest with you.
(42:58):
It's an older population thatare within the Master Gardeners
and there's a movement and atrend right now to try to
recruit younger.
So, I had a meeting with thecoordinator for the Muskoka
group, my local group.
I actually happen to reside inthe middle of three different
groups and I had to pick one.
And I just happened to pick theMuskoka group because it's my
brand online cottage country,and I did a quiz and it was a
(43:20):
multiple choice quiz Just assessyour base level of knowledge,
because you have to have somedegree of knowledge if you want
to actually join and be a member.
And after that I like, I like Ipassed.
The only question that I gotwrong was something to do with
termites and and I was like, hey, this question, I actually
didn't get the question wrong.
The question was wrong, it wasfun.
(43:41):
It happens it does.
And so I joined and I wasconsidered a master gardener in
training, and that's a two yearperiod where you're supposed to
complete their, their curriculum, which is like an education
program.
You have to have a certainnumber of credits within a
certain group of topics andwhatnot, and you have to commit
to doing volunteer hours.
(44:01):
It's a nonprofit organizationand that's something that a lot
of people don't seem tounderstand is it's not a cult,
it's not a ranking, it's not adegree of education that you
achieve although there is aneducational component.
It's an organization.
So when I say I'm a mastergardener, what I actually say is
I am a member of the mastergardeners, and I try and
emphasize that whenever peoplesay it, because I'm like, like
I'm not a rank master, I don't.
(44:23):
I have more than 10,000 hours,sure, but I'm not a master, I
don't consider myself an expert.
I had equivalency creditsbecause, dog, I studied plants
for a while, and so I sharedsome of those equivalency
credits and said Do I reallyneed to pay to take these
courses that I've already done?
Is this okay?
And they said You're good,you're good, you're golden.
And so I became a member, I'vecompleted my education, I
(44:44):
finished my two year mastergardener and training time frame
and now I just go around, dotalks and lectures and just
share knowledge and shareexperience.
Teach people without shame totry and bring people into
gardening.
Mostly what I'm doing, if I'mhonest with you, is teaching
people about the mastergardeners, which is ironic.
I was recruited to go out andrecruit people and now?
(45:06):
So the Master Gardeners what are?
They is a nonprofit thatstarted to answer questions that
farmers and other agriculturalpeople were too busy to answer
and they were being inundatedwith these questions.
It was founded over 30 yearsago, or at least the one in
Ontario was 30 something yearsago.
I don't want to give a specificnumber because then I'd have to
(45:28):
fact check myself.
And back in the day, theireducation was paid for, it was
subsidized and you would go toschool, you get an education,
you join this nonprofitorganization and when people ask
questions about their gardens,you ask them and they are hyper
local and they will give youlocal advice for local gardeners
.
And that context again, thatcontext is very important.
(45:49):
And there's a Huntsville inTexas, I believe, a Huntsville.
Yeah, I work in Huntsville, Idon't work in Huntsville, texas,
and so we get those sorts ofquestions all the time about
people who.
There's an Ontario inCalifornia, it's like a town of
Ontario or something like that,but I'm talking about the
province of Canada.
So we get questions all thetime of people asking about this
(46:12):
and that.
And it's up to us to do a bitof Sherlock Holmes detective
troubleshooting to find out whatthe real question is, because
quite often people are like, hey, how come my tomato is not
growing and it really has to dowith their soil, or maybe it
doesn't, or maybe you should setup a security camera because
you've actually got a raccoonwho who knows?
And it's up to us to followthis, this troubleshooting.
(46:34):
And that's where I really lovedthe master gardeners, because I
am a problem solver, I'm ajack-of-all-trades
troubleshooter.
That is what I love doing.
That is my passion when I go togardens is I like to figure it
out, I love to solve the problemand yeah, that's what the
Master Gardeners does.
And this year there was a callout for the board of directors,
(46:55):
because it's a cycle where theboard kind of flips and whatnot,
and there was a big need and soI volunteered.
I said listen, I don't think I'mqualified to take on the role
of president that you wereasking about.
But if there is a need, andthey said, oh yeah, we need, we
do need someone in marketing andpartnerships, and so I'm like,
oh hey, that's yeah, just go outand network, go talk to people,
(47:17):
go shake hands, go makepartners.
Heck, yeah, that's what I'mdoing today, that's what I'm
talking to my buddy.
I think reaching out to peopleand making connections and
networking is so very important.
And, yeah, I became the boardof directors director of
partnerships, and we're doing alittle bit of restructuring this
year the Master Gardeners ofOntario, specifically in regards
(47:38):
to the roles andresponsibilities, the
descriptions, the manual, the,our mandates and whatnot, these
sorts of things that haven'tbeen updated in decades.
This year we're doing a bigrestructuring, I should say.
And so I haven't done anythingas far as being on the board of
directors.
I'm just, I'm there, but Ihaven't done anything yet.
(48:01):
So I don't want to toot my ownhorn here I got.
I'm still new.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
That's cool, though, and I think that's great and
like for people listening,across the world.
There are Master Gardenerassociations in a number of
countries, definitely all overthe United States, probably all
over Canada, and you can find,like you're saying, hyper-local
information, and that's souseful, like I get a lot locally
.
I get a lot of phone calls andemails of like how do I do this
(48:28):
or that, or what's wrong with mytomato, and all that, but my
time is limited, right, there'sjust the one of me, so a lot of
times I'll send those folks tothe master gardeners.
I'm like hey, I think theycould help you a lot more than I
can in this.
They've got more time andthere's a wide breadth of
knowledge and gardeningexperience, so it's really such
a good resource for just anyonewho wants to garden, anyone who
wants to grow plants, to takeadvantage of and it's free right
(48:51):
.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
You just ask them a question and it is their mandate
to give you the best advicethat they can.
I would say, take everythingwith a grain of salt, especially
if you are asking them adviceon social media.
So the Master Gardeners ofOntario has an official Facebook
page, but if you ask a questionon that Facebook page, you are
going to get hundreds ofresponses and there's no way to
(49:12):
say this person is a member andthis person isn't.
So you're getting average Joehomeowners who call themselves
masters because they think theydon't realize that it's an
organization.
They're like I've beengardening for 40 years.
I'm a master, hold on Anyways.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
No, that's no, that's good advice, just in general,
like it.
Just with the internet, like wetalked about at the top of the
episode, make sure you testeverything right, make sure that
you are double checking all theadvice you get, like advice
that I give you if I make sureI'm not lying to you.
I'm not going to do it onpurpose, but I'm wrong, just so
much.
Just so much.
And I want to make sure that Ihad a student call me out in
(49:50):
class a couple of days agobecause I don't remember what I
said but, it was something thatwas like close and I just got
the wires crossed in my head andI said it wrong.
And after class he came up andhe was like hey, like I don't
want to be rude, I'm like no,like you're absolutely right,
and I think that's always a goodopportunity to like make sure
(50:11):
that you are holding the peopleyou get information from
accountable.
So it gives, I think, people agood tool to begin if critically
evaluate things.
Like you go to a goodorganization, you start from a
good place and then you reallyapply it to your life, apply it
to your specific circumstancesand take what's meaningful and
kind of leave the rest.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
In some cases, I think the mark of a good teacher
and communicator and educatoris the ability to take those
challenges, because quite oftenI'll have people say what about
this?
I just don't know.
I'm not scared to say I don'tknow.
It's been so long.
I don't know.
What about this plant.
I've never heard the name ofthat plant before.
I don't know.
But I'll look into it for you,not a problem.
(50:52):
Yeah, but the people who getoffended if you challenge what
they just said, that is a majorred flag and unfortunately I
can't properly hear anythingelse that they have to say after
that.
I, we went to, I was at aconference last year around this
time last year and somebodysaid something just sacrilegious
.
It was just so outrageous.
It was like a quote, it was amisquote from some statistics
(51:15):
and I was like I can't.
That's so wrong.
Why would you phrase it likethat?
I know what you're saying.
What you're saying istechnically true, but the way
that you framed it was soinappropriate and it gives the
wrong impression that I can'ttrust anything else that you
have to say after that.
You what you had just saidearlier as well.
Test things for yourself.
Try, get your hands dirty, makemesses, miss, frizzle it up in
(51:40):
the garden magic school bus wasvery inspirational, and that's
what I do on tiktok now is Istopped giving people advice and
I started showing people myexperiments, because I like
messing around with plants, Ilike having fun, I like seeing
what works, what doesn't work.
I don't have the answers allthe time, and sometimes the
internet doesn't either, solet's just try it, just see if
it works.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, that's I think that's a healthy way to I don't
know engage with being a contentcreator, being an educator and
being someone who puts that outthere, because, again, we have
to approach everything withhumility and with teachability.
And just again it goes backjust don't be a jerk as we wrap
up here, because I just lookedup and we're over an hour
(52:20):
already, which is awesome, and Iagain, it's fun to get lost in
these conversations sometimes.
If you had a piece of advice tothrow at our listeners,
something to take home whetherthat is the best way to shovel
snow off a roof, or gardenadvice, or whatever it is what
would that be?
What do you want to leave withthe planthropology people?
Speaker 2 (52:39):
You're going to make mistakes, and that's okay,
that's encouraged.
You don't know everything.
You'll never know everything,and that's not something to be
daunting or overwhelming.
It's inspiring, it's.
I don't want to know everything, because then everything would
be boring.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Yeah, Really good.
No, I don't think about that alot.
It's easy I made a mistake andjust to hate yourself for it,
but it's part of the process.
That's how we learn, we'rehumans.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
Yeah, I do expect a new, an entirely new merch
lineup, just based on quotesfrom this.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You know I've got a bunch.
I've got them all jotted downhere.
I'll work on it.
Sean, where do we find you?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Sure, sure.
As I mentioned more than oncehere is, I'm one of the co-hosts
of Plants Always Win, a podcastlike this one.
Go listen to it, subscribe.
As Vikram says, I wear a sizefive review.
I do appreciate that.
You can find me on Instagramand TikTok.
At Garden Guy Muskoka we are.
Our podcast also has othersocials, so Plants Always Win or
(53:38):
Plants Always Win podcast.
Unfortunately, we got to apoint where usernames are hard
to secure across the board, soif you go to plantsalwayswincom,
you'll find links to all thesocials and whatnot.
I'm not as active on Instagramas I used to be.
It's just because it neverpicked up traction and so I was
never encouraged to continue,but I would love to do a little
bit more there.
(53:59):
Stay tuned.
Actually, this summer, aaronand I are hoping to turn our
podcast into a more activeYouTube series talking about
mostly our own experiences, whatwe're doing in the gardening,
why, what worked, what didn'twork.
I don't want to tell you whatto do.
It's a two-way conversation.
I want to share my experiencesand answer questions, but we're
really trying to not go downthat very easy rabbit hole of
(54:20):
telling I'm giving peopleunsolicited advice.
Yeah, that's where you can findus, I think.
I don't think there's anythingelse, I'll find it, oh, okay, oh
, you can add me on Pokemon Go.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Pokemon Go.
I need to start playing.
Yeah, it's fun times, sean.
I really enjoyed that.
It is always fun to chat withyou and I appreciate your
insight and just your approachto a lot of things, from
education to gardening tocontent creation just everything
you do.
I like the energy and the Idon't know attitude you bring to
(54:53):
it.
So thanks for being you, thanksfor doing this.
This was a lot of fun and wewill talk again soon.
Thank you for having me Makemistakes, be imperfect.
It's how we learn and it's howwe get better at things.
Thanks so much, sean, for yourinsight and your wisdom and your
time and just for being such acool dude and such a good friend
.
Thanks to you for listening toPlantthropology and making this
(55:15):
possible.
You know that I do this for youand you know that I love you
and it's just been such apleasure over the past six years
to do Plantthropology.
Thanks one more time to theTexas Tech Department of Plant
and Soil Science and the DavisCollege for supporting the show.
Plant Anthropology is written,directed, hosted whatever other
things happen to make a podcasthappen by me.
(55:35):
Our intro and outro music is bythe award-winning composer,
nicholas Scout, and the mid-rollmusic that plays behind
whatever weird stuff I'm sayingto you is by my buddy, rui, and
his fabulous lo-fi dad beats.
Keep being kind to one another.
If you have not been kind toone another, this is probably a
(55:56):
really good time to start.
I'm just gonna say Keep beingreally cool.
Plant people, be safe, be goodand I will talk to you next time
.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Thank you.
What is up?
Plant people it's time oncemore for the Plantthropology
Podcast, the show where we diveinto the lives and careers of
some very cool plant people tofigure out what they do, what
they do and what keeps themcoming back for more.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand humble guide in this journey
through the greenest of thesciences and, as always, my
friends, I am so excited to bewith you today.
I have a guest today thatreally I've wanted to have on
(00:21):
the show for a while, and he'salso wanted to be on the show
for a while, but then I kepttaking like long breaks and that
makes it hard right To likehave people on the show.
But you get the privilege ofhearing now from my buddy, sean
Patchett, who you can findonline all over these here
interwebs, as Garden Guy Muskokaand if you're one of my
(00:44):
American friends and Americanlisteners, muskoka is in Canada,
so he's another Canadian.
There have been a lot ofCanadians on the show and I'm
here for it.
They've been really reallyquite wonderful.
So Sean is a multi-talentedhorticulturist he does landscape
work, he does cleanups andplanting, he does propagation.
(01:05):
He's a master gardener up inOntario and he is a wonderful
podcaster and sciencecommunicator, video creator.
I hope you'll go right now, asyou're listening to this, and
follow him all the places AgainGarden Guy Muskoka.
That is spelled with someletters that are not in my brain
right now, but I bet you canfind it and you can click on it
in the show notes.
But we had a really goodconversation about everything
(01:27):
from some of the ins and outs ofcommunicating science carefully
, and I think that's somethingthat's really important to
discuss, especially today, thatwe're giving the appropriate
context and we're looking at howwe explain things well, and
Sean does this really reallyeffectively and he's also just
such a cool guy, just such anice guy.
(01:47):
So I think you're really goingto enjoy this episode.
So, without any further ado,buckle up, let's get into it and
get ready for episode 117 ofthe Plantar Apology podcast with
my good friend, sean Patchett.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh, it's already recording.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
That was fast.
Oh, I like the pre-show garbagetime.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Fair enough.
I don't know.
That's when the organic jokesjust come out.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Maybe this will be organic because it's plants.
This may be the actual opening,Hi Sean.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Hello and welcome to Plants.
Always Win a show where twoOntario gardeners explore the
wide world of horticulture, bustsome myths and answer your
plant and garden questions.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm Sean, I'm Vikram and you're on the wrong show.
Wait, nah, not again.
It keeps happening to you.
That's two in a row, man.
I don't know what's going on.
I'm just really intocross-pollination.
Sean, I'm so excited to haveyou here today.
I like getting to talk to coolpeople that are also my friends,
and so this is exciting.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, it's exciting for me too.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Awesome.
This is not Plants Always Win,though We'll talk about that a
lot and I'm excited that you'redoing that show.
That's so awesome.
But this is againPlantthropology, and, as we do
on Plantthropology, we talkabout cool plant people and you
are one of the cooler, know.
Take a minute, introduceyourself, tell us about Sean.
Where are you from, what do youdo, what do you study or what
did you study, and just anythingthat you would like us to know
(03:28):
about.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh, sure, my name is Sean.
I'm a tourist and I enjoy longwalks on the beach and yeah, no,
coming from you.
That's, that's quite the intro.
I really appreciate that.
Yeah, you also, by the way, areone of the cooler plant people
I know, so I really appreciatebeing here.
So my name is Sean.
I studied horticulture timesome time ago and time is
relative, I don't know and Istudied a CODA program, so
(03:52):
that's a co-op diploma,apprenticeship, and I completed
all that.
And then I fell into thelandscaping side of things
because, as a young man withknowledge about plants, I was
scooped up by some landscapersand it's just a trajectory I
fell into, eventually started myown landscaping and design
business, joined the MasterGardeners of Ontario, which is a
(04:13):
nonprofit organization that youknow, the Master Gardeners, but
of probably Texas, yeah, andthen recently started a podcast,
plants Always Win, partially, Imight say inspired a little bit
by plan Always Win, partially,I might say, inspired a little
bit by planthropology Spoilers.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, you'll be hearing from my lawyers.
I'm just kidding.
No, that's exciting.
Yeah, and when did y'all startthat?
You're just a few episodes, ahandful of episodes in.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
We have now launched 17 episodes.
We breached that.
98% of podcasts that drop offafter the first three.
We started in December, butreally we've been talking about
it for a long time and before myamazing co-host that I have
right now, aaron.
Before that I had tried andtried by myself.
It's a lot of work.
It's a lot to get yourself upand motivate yourself.
(04:59):
It's a lot easier to have asecond person to help motivate
you there.
Yeah, we started early Decemberof 2024.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, cool.
Actually, that's not a badplace to just start a lot of our
conversation, because I think Iwant to get the picture of what
you do.
You know who you are, all that,and a big part of what you do
is science, communication andtalking about plants online and
just working in this plantcommunity quite a bit, and your
podcast is a big part of that,as well as your social media
outlet.
But just give us the rundown onthe show.
What made you y'all decide towant to do it?
(05:31):
What kinds of topics do youtalk about?
What's the format?
Yeah, just give us the elevatorpitch, the elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, the internet is full of garbage, no-transcript
(06:11):
horticulture all of that stuffis context.
Context is the most importantthing.
When you're trying to givepeople advice on the internet,
may is the best time to pruneyour apples.
Where in the bloody world areyou Come on?
Or it really depends on whatyou're trying to achieve.
There's multiple ways of doinganything and unless you have
some sort of HOA or municipalbylaw, you can do whatever you
(06:33):
want, and I like to reinforcethat.
So it's sprouted out of a desireto combat misinformation and
continue learning and, honestly,as an excuse to reach out to
cool people and talk to them too, because, as you're well aware,
we never stop learning right.
We always want to keep.
I'm more of a chaos gremlinwhen it comes to gardening.
(06:53):
I'm a jack of all trades.
I like a little bit ofeverything and I have just
enough knowledge to make medangerous, but not specific
enough in any one particularfield that I would consider
myself an expert in anyparticular thing.
But I like to talk to expertsand see what they have to say,
and all the good ones, likeyourself, for example.
It's going to be a fair degreeof Wickham flattery today.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I'm always down for that.
That's my whole thing.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It helps.
That's how I got here, folks.
Yeah, all the good ones bring,they use a certain terminology.
That's not a definitive hardstance on any one thing, because
it really does depend, and ifyou ask me a question about your
garden or your plants orwhatever, about my favorite food
, anything my answer will almostalways be it depends, followed
by a series of questions orvariables.
(07:41):
And yeah, so that's what we do.
We're focused on Ontario, butof course nature is
international and borders aremade up, and so of course, what
we do touches on other regionsas well.
You can take some of the advicethat we give and apply what is
relevant to your particularsituation or your environment.
We try and do that at least.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, and I think y'all do a great job of it and I
don't.
I really like.
So it's funny because I'm likejotting down quotes You've had.
There's a lot of great.
I appreciate guests that dothis.
No, like the internet side ofthis and the social media side,
because I've got so many greatpoll quotes and like gardens are
international and borders aremade up, would be a great.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Oh yeah, that's a great oh yeah, you can have that
one for free.
Hey, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But you're right, like I think, even though you're
in Ontario and I want to getinto this in just a second some
of the differences in gardeningbetween, like where I live,
where you live, but the thingsthat you talk about, the
concepts you cover, the specificsituations that you get into,
might be applicable in 100places around the world or in
different places at differenttimes of the year, and I think
that's such a cool opportunitythat we have as educators.
(08:47):
That has never really been athing in the past.
Right, this is the one of thefirst times in our human history
that we have the opportunity tocontextualize things so well
for so many people.
But on the other side of that,like you were talking about
earlier, the internet's full ofgarbage of people that are.
There's no context.
Context is not real.
I'm gonna stick this kiwi in abanana and we're gonna see what
(09:08):
happens.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I get there's yeah, and that's one very obvious side
of the garbage internet.
But there are some that likevery well-meaning and I wanna
give them the benefit of thedoubt.
There's a sweet older fellowfrom Australia and I do follow
him because what he's saying isreally cool and I like his
passion.
But when he says this is thebest ground cover for your lawn,
(09:30):
and I'm like again, you have to.
I can't just take theassumption of what your accent
is to deduce where you are inthe world.
It's not fair.
I don't have that plant.
That's a beautiful plant, but Ican't have that.
And now they're on YouTube,they're on TikTok, they're
reaching an internationalaudience.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Absolutely, and I do think that's why context, at the
end of the day, is everything.
Context matters so much, likeyou're talking about and making
sure that people reallyunderstand that, and I think
it's dangerous too from agardening standpoint.
Dangerous is maybe oversellingit just a little, but if people
are trying to, I think the worstthing we can do as content
creators, as educators, is belike this is the absolute best
(10:08):
thing without knowing thecontext, because then people get
discouraged.
Right, they go out and they trytheir even if it's not a plant
hack their well-intentionedpiece of advice and it kills
their tomatoes or it justdoesn't work, and then it drives
them off from this thing.
That's very like empowering andfulfilling and I think we have
to be really careful about that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, you know what?
I'm gonna throw myself underthe bus here for a second.
I gave a little.
This was three years ago, but Idid this video on a good way to
repel squirrels temporarily.
It's just something that kindof pisses them off when you're
planting bulbs in the fall.
So if you plant bulbs and youuse a product called hen manure,
which is a pelletized,composted chicken poop, when
(10:48):
they dig down into the soil toget to the bulb, for whatever
reason, they seem to not like it.
This isn't science, this isanecdotal evidence, and I said
that In my experience.
This works for me and I got somuch hate from people saying
chicken poop is dangerous, itcarries these pathogens, it's
going to nitrogen, burn yourplants and I'm like, technically
, all of that is true if we'retalking about raw chicken poop.
(11:10):
But that's the context, right.
That's the subtlety, that'swhat they picked up on, that's
what they didn't hear or didhear, and I'm still today
getting hate messages from stufflike that.
It encourages me to be a littlebit more introspective with the
things that I put out on theinternet.
(11:31):
I'm definitely a lot morecautious than I used to be.
I dwindled down what I wasputting out there.
Tiktok is full of people veryquick to give you their opinions
and their anecdotes.
And then Facebook is full ofpeople willing to give you their
facts.
And I'm not going to say thefacts, these are their facts.
And that's good, yeah.
And oh boy, it's a verydangerous place and once upon a
time I used to have a bit morelet's call it youthful arrogance
(11:51):
where I still have it.
But I used to think I would heara question about lawn care or
about gardening or whatever, andI would think, wow, what a lazy
question, how silly, how stupid.
Why don't you just go to theInternet?
Why don't you just look it upyourself and find out?
And then I started doing that.
I started going to the internetand I started realizing, hey,
maybe it's not a stupid questionbecause the internet's saying
(12:12):
you can do this or that or this.
It's recommending theseproducts, but they're not
available in your country.
So maybe these products and youcan do whatever.
And then you go to social media, where there are these forums,
these garden groups, thesewell-meaning individuals, and
you ask the same question andyou'll get dozens, if not
hundreds, of answers.
And I realized at that momentwow, there really is no such
(12:35):
thing as a dumb question.
There are lazy questionssometimes, sure, but it's good
to ask other people sometimesand not just rely on the
internet sometimes and not justrely on the internet.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think a big part of doing that because I do see
that a lot I see you could justGoogle it.
Okay, it's social media for areason, right, there's the
social part of it that we'resupposed to be doing and I've
fallen into that too.
I think that's it's easy to dowhen it's this is such a simple
thing, but the things that arelike simple and easy for me are
not the same for everyone.
Right, and like you're talkingabout, you Google something and
(13:10):
it's okay.
Here's 5,000 results.
Good, so much of it is just howdo you evaluate information?
How do you find the rightinformation?
How do you critically parsethrough all of this stuff that's
out there and make it makesense, but also make it, say,
make sense in a way that'sactually real, because lots of
it makes sense that turned outnot to be true.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, even right now, the internet and search engines
are getting worse, or at leastmore troublesome, because if you
go to Google and ask it aquestion, you have a full,
articulate sentence right here.
It will give you an AIgenerated answer based on
information that it scrubbed.
But AI currently, as of thetime of this recording and my
(13:49):
understanding of how it works.
I could be wrong here, I'mtalking out of my butt, but AI
is a sentence filler.
It will automatically fill thatsentence.
It makes sense and you can readit, but it might not be
accurate, it might not be real,it doesn't fact check, it
doesn't search for you, and soit's an AI generated.
Here's probably the answeryou're looking for, which is a
dangerous thing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
For sure, and to like circle this conversation back
just a little bit, I thinkthat's actually a good time to
talk about some of thedifferences.
We find right, because it's aswe record this, it's April 9th,
okay, and where I live, in Texas, we had a big cold snap.
This big.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay, let's couch that in for Texas.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
It was cold.
We got down in the 20sFahrenheit.
We got some snow on Saturday,which is not super unusual for
us for April.
But it doesn't happen a ton.
Right, it happens, it justdoesn't happen a ton.
But a lot of people got realgung-ho and went out and planted
tomatoes and stuff and thatturned out to not be great, but
for you in Ontario you were justtelling me you got a foot of
(14:48):
snow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah.
So we had fall spring twicewhere the weather was beautiful,
and for us, fall spring interms of Celsius.
I do apologize to your Americanlisteners.
I'm familiar with Celsius.
If it's above zero degreesCelsius is when snow melts, and
if the sun hits it it meltsfaster.
We had a few days where it wasabove almost 10 degrees Celsius
and I'm out there in a t-shirtLike it's so lovely, and then it
(15:11):
goes back to negative 10, whichis pretty cold.
I'm not in my full snowsuitregalia or anything like that.
We had almost no snow left andthen two days ago we had about a
foot of snow overnight.
Wow, just on the yeah.
The two week forecast showssomewhere between 10 and
negative 10.
It's just going to befluctuating quite a bit and
there's a lot of people outthere who are saying, oh, I just
(15:32):
want to, I'm sick of winter, Iwant to get out there.
I'm like it's still April.
This isn't new to us.
This isn't new around here.
I understand depression, theexcitement about going out in
the spring.
I get that.
We're still in early April.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
It's normal, yeah, and that's it.
But that really, I think,drives home some of this
conversation too, of if someonewatched my video, right, if I've
made a video today, if I wentout and made a video today and
said, hey, we're past the dangerof freezes, even if I couch
that in Lubbock Texas, we'reprobably past the danger of
freezes, probably fine to goplant your tomatoes and peppers
and whatever.
I'm still not real confident inthat.
But someone in the northeasternUnited States or in Canada or
(16:13):
someone may watch that and onlyhere go plant your.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, exactly, it's, yeah, and along with that
there's so, yeah, I'm, I inCanada, I'm exposed to a lot of
American gardeners because my myalgorithm feeds me plant people
and I appreciate that so much.
But the people out there makinggarden content, or the people
out there who don't have winterright now, and and I get that
jealousy, I do, I feel it, but Iknow where I live and I know my
(16:39):
own limitations.
And the other part of that isis we can get into products, for
example, the USDA hardinesszone versus Canadian hardiness
zones.
The vast majority of ourproducts are labeled with the
USDA hardiness zone anyways, andyet you've got Canadian
gardeners who are talking aboutthe Canadian hardiness zone.
I'm like it doesn't apply toeven Canadian average Joe,
(16:59):
everyday people, because whatthey buy at the garden center is
still USDA.
And so trying to yeah, I don'tknow how else to say context is
the most important thing.
If you're out there getting orgiving any gardening advice, ask
the questions, and if somebodyasks the question, don't be
insulted that, oh, I forgot.
Yeah, that's also.
I should have mentioned that.
That's very important, yep.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yep, and that's and I think that's a great reminder
thinking of as educators,because we are in different
contexts, right, and I thinkwe're all teaching something.
We're all giving information,whether it's good information,
bad information.
I think everyone out thereneeds to understand that you may
be making a silly video yellingabout bananas, whatever right,
whatever it is, people aretaking that information and
(17:41):
digesting it and working it intotheir worldview and all of that
stuff.
And that is such a weird thingto think about as an educator,
as a content creator, that like,oh no, people actually care
what I think, or maybe they'remad about what I think, or
whatever.
I have a question.
I think you've answered this insome ways, but I want to ask it
maybe a little bit differently,as someone who started in the
(18:01):
landscape field, who has avariety of experiences and a
variety of industry sort of endsto horticulture.
What made you want to tacklethis whole thing that we do?
Are you also a glutton forpunishment, like me?
What made you make thattransition from I'm someone who
works in the industry, in thefield, planting plants, doing
(18:22):
the thing to?
I really want to tell peopleabout this too.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was a little bit of spite and anger.
If I'm being totally honestwith you here, I'll confess my
sins.
Seeing people give bad adviceso confidently made me angry.
And like I worked for a coupleof landscaping companies and I'd
go to a garden center and I'dhear a customer talk to one of
the garden center employees andthey're trying to upsell this
plant and this product and blah,blah, blah.
(18:45):
And I'd go to a garden centerand I'd hear a customer talk to
one of the garden centeremployees and they're trying to
upsell this plant and thisproduct and blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like that's not whatthey asked, that's not good,
that's not and I don't know.
Eventually I took to theInternet and yeah, I see a lot
of it besides five minute crafts, besides stuff like that.
I wanted to share knowledge ina way that doesn't shame people
(19:09):
for not having that knowledgeand I try really hard, but
sometimes people get offended,no matter what you do.
And yeah, I think that there isa tie, a relationship that
should be addressed right now inthe world of gardening and
horticulture at large, which isanecdotal evidence which, in my
opinion, has a place in science,because our anecdotes are our
experiences.
We are all a product of our ownexperiences, our observations.
(19:30):
What happens to us, whathappens to me, might be very
different than what happens tomy neighbor.
We could be, we could havealmost a completely identical
property but for whatever reason, my garden flourishes and
theirs doesn't, or the other wayaround, or the deer go to their
garden but they don't come tomine.
That sort of contrast of ourexperiences has a place in
science, has a place in theeducation world, and I think
(19:52):
right now there's a lot of that.
I believe iNaturalist is doing abig citizen science thing.
That's mostly foridentification.
But there are other avenuesthat are I don't know how to
hokey pokey that I don't want tomake fun of anyone.
I'm doing this right Like I'mstepping on my own toes here,
throwing myself under the bus.
But there are some avenues ingardening.
(20:14):
When you talk about lunarcycles and stuff like that and
I'm like, oh, that's cool, and Iagree that the moon exists and
I agree that the reflection oflight off the moon probably has
some sort of bearing on theenvironment, whether that's
insects or plants or whatever.
I don't think that the lunarcycle has to do with the growth
of my tomatoes, but maybe itdoesn't, as a passive example of
(20:34):
anecdotal things.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I agree with you.
I think the anecdote andthere's a saying that a couple
of podcasts I listen to say thatthe plural of anecdote is not
data.
Saying that a couple ofpodcasts I listened to say that
the plural of anecdote is notdata and I agree with that.
However, I also agree that thefoundational part of scientific
inquiry is experience andquestions and observation.
Right, that is where we start.
(20:57):
People started doing sciencebecause they looked up at the
sky and they saw that the moonexplodes every day or it goes
away, or it's dark, darksometimes, or today it's not
here, and this plant grows andit flowers on this day over here
, but it doesn't flower on thisday over here.
And then we start to ask why.
And we have to have thatinitiation of curiosity to get
(21:17):
anywhere in science, like it isintegral to the scientific
process.
And there are some things outthere that are very like woo,
like all day talk about the oh,what do they call it?
Electro horticulture, stufflike that all day.
And it's not because the ideais absolutely insane, because
(21:37):
there are insane sounding ideasthat turn out to be true.
It's because someone has hadthis idea in the past and then
they tested it and it didn'twork, and because someone has
had this idea in the past andthen they tested it and it
didn't work, and because of that, at least in the context that
it was tested, I can sometimespretty confidently say, yeah,
okay, like you're saying, Iunderstand the thought, like I
understand the framework you'recoming from, but let me show you
(21:57):
where it's been done and why itdoesn't work.
And maybe here are betteralternatives.
And I think we as sciencepeople, as science communicators
, as knowledgeable gardencreators, have a really fine
line to tread of making surewe're not diluting our message
and making sure we're tellingthe truth but also not being
jerks about it.
There's a good and bad way todo it.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, that's such an important factor.
Oh my goodness.
So one of the most infamouspieces of plant media that
circulates, it has its waves, itcomes and it goes and you know
it and it keeps coming back isthe NASA houseplant air
filtration thing, and that wasthe history behind it.
(22:37):
Essentially, they don't reallyfilter the air, they don't
really remove toxins.
There's an argument to be madeabout VOCs, whatever, but that's
also not how the experimentworked and it was a
misinterpretation that led to anarticle and then it was a quote
of that article and then itjust became a wild game of
telephone reporting to a pointof content creators now, who
(23:00):
just perpetuates this.
It's widely known fact thatplants filter the air.
For you, I'm like, you cancrack a window an inch and get
better air filtration in yourhouse.
It's.
Having 10,000 plants in yourhouse is not feasible.
You will, it's.
But yeah, that's trying to talkabout those things without
being a jerk.
It's tough sometimes whenyou're as passionate about these
(23:24):
things and people who are justperpetuating these lies and they
don't know, they didn't look itup, they don't bother to look
it up, or maybe they do know, sothey're either ignorant or
willfully ignorant and it'sinteresting because those things
are very different, right Fromthe intent standpoint.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
like I can excuse ignorance, like I can there's,
if we wanted to talk about allthe things I don't know, like
how much time you got, we canfill an ocean, right you?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
don't know what you don't know.
Yeah, exactly, there's so muchout there that you'll never know
, because you can't think aboutit in order to ask the questions
, to learn about it.
You don't know the things thatyou don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Exactly, and then?
But then when we do, then we dostart to get glimpses of oh,
maybe I've been wrong thehumility sometimes of having to
take a step back.
You'd be like, no, I was wrongabout this, I didn't understand
this, but now I do.
And I think, once we dounderstand, at that point we
have a responsibility to adjustour frameworks, to adjust our
way of thinking, to make surethat we're finding out and then
(24:21):
telling the truth, and move froma place of passive ignorance or
unintentional ignorance toknowledge and wisdom and
appropriate use of information,instead of just I am going to
dig in my heels and this is thehill I will die on.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, I think if I were to be able to de-stigmatize
a word, it would be ignorance.
I will admit to you and I willadmit to anyone who is willing
to listen, I am an ignorantwhite man.
That's not a bad thing, that is, I don't know a lot of things,
I'm not exposed to a lot ofother cultures and a lot of
other sciences, and that doesn'thave to be so negative.
(24:58):
There doesn't have to be thisstigma associated with it.
I'm ignorant and very curiousand enthusiastic and I think
that they can go hand in handand then reflect a degree of
positivity in the world ofscience and nature and
environmentalism.
That doesn't have to be sodepressing.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, that's awesome and that's such a good way to
look at it.
I think that's a great time totake a quick break and think
through that and digest that alittle bit, and then, when we
come back, I want to talk aboutsome of the practical experience
you have, too, and some of thelandscape work you do and how
you approach that, again beingin a very cold climate, and then
also the work and the timeyou've spent with the master
gardeners.
We'll hit that after the break,but let's go get a drink of
(25:36):
water and I'll say some randomwords to the people for a minute
.
Sounds good.
All right, we're back.
So, sean, in your day-to-daywhatever that, whatever real job
, day job, whatever you want tocall it you do landscape work
and you actually like put plantsin the ground and get outside
and get your hands dirty, whichis something that I feel is so
valuable in this field, and Ijust want to learn more about
(25:57):
that.
Talk about the kind of work youdo, what kind of landscapes you
like to work in, how does thatlook?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, so currently, I'll say I started my own
landscaping business Time isrelative a couple of years ago,
but before that I was doingresidential landscaping for a
number of years as well, and soit's mostly people's properties
and it's nowadays it's just acouple of cottages and I have my
(26:24):
consistent list of amazing,wonderful clients and I tend to
their properties outdoors.
So I do a lot of lawn andgarden maintenance.
I plant their gardens, I buytheir plants for them, I tend to
their lawns if they even have alawn and then I do their winter
stuff as well shoveling roofsand whatnot.
That's not fun, but it's partof the job, part of it.
(26:45):
I would love to do a little bitmore design work, but that
would entail a bit of a careershift in that I just don't have
time, and so I would need tohire people to do the job that
I'm currently doing for thesewonderful clients that I don't
want to give up.
They're amazing human beings.
I'm at a point where I can catermy own clientele now.
It's wonderful In order to havetime.
(27:06):
I'd have to hire people inorder to have time to do more
essentially, but yeah, that's myday job.
In the winter, I've beenworking with one of my clients
in particular doing constructionand renovation, picking up
skills because they used to doconstruction on yeah, and so he
said he would rather hire me ashis second set of hands than
(27:26):
just hire a crew to do all thisstuff.
And I'm like I don't mind it,you keep me busy in the winter.
It's wonderful, and I'll be sadwhenever that project gets done
.
Yeah, I've got at least onemore winter of work, though.
We're good.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I think that's really interesting and I think that
actually hits on a key point.
Just talking about thisindustry means, I think, when
people hear landscaper, theythink a very I don't know
exactly specific thing.
Like you are same Gamgee,trimming hedges and rings of
power.
That's on my off time.
Yeah, everyone needs a hobby,but in my experience, as someone
(27:57):
who's done it too, it's neverjust.
It's such a diverse job, it'snever just one thing and you
almost have to end up being likea jack of all trades.
You end up having to do alittle bit of construction work.
You do irrigation work, you dolandscaping or you do like plant
care.
You do planting and plantremoval and tree pruning and you
(28:19):
put up holiday lighting and youshovel roofs, and it's never
just one thing.
And I think that's reallyimportant for folks wanting to
get into this industry tounderstand a little bit like
there are firms where it's allI'm going to do is do design
work or I'm going to do this onething, and that's true.
But especially people likeworking for themselves in this
field, you need to learn andit's a cool opportunity to learn
do a ton of different.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Oh yeah, I will say this.
There are a number ofcontractors that do exactly what
you just said One thing, and Iget that.
And a lot of people have thismentality of if you're going to
do something, do one thingreally well.
And I hate it.
And the reason why I hate itbesides the fact that I'm a
little ADHD hobby gremlin thatdoes too many things for his own
good and can't complete a hobbyI just do a lot of things.
(29:00):
Typically, when those people dothat one thing really well,
they don't think about the otherthings.
And let me give you an example.
When I worked for a largercompany before I did my own
thing, there was a landscapedesigner from a city a couple
hours away.
They designed the landscape forthis.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, hey there, welcome to the mid-roll.
How are you today?
How are your houseplants?
I hope they're well.
Give them a nice little pat onthe leaf from me and tell them I
said hi.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode and I hope you've
enjoyed it so far as much asI've enjoyed recording it and
talking to Sean and editing it.
It's fun, by the way.
As an aside, you need to listenback to these and be like, oh
(29:40):
wow, what a great conversation,and this is definitely one of
those.
But thank you so much for beinga part of plant anthropology.
Thanks to the Texas TechDepartment of Plant and Soil
Science and the Davis College ofAgricultural Science and
Natural Resources for allowingme to do what I do and for being
a part of this process allthese years.
Thanks to Sean for being on theshow, but most of all, again,
(30:02):
thank you for being a part of it.
If you'd like to supportPlantthropology, there's a lot
of ways you can do that.
You leave me a rating andreview on any of the rating and
review machines.
You can find out there spotifyor apple podcast or pod chaser
or pretty much probably anywhereyou're listening.
You can follow on social media.
I am planthropology or someversion thereof.
I think I'm planthropology podon the instagrams and some other
(30:26):
version in other places.
I'm on threads now so you canfollow me there too also.
Personally, I am the plant prof, also all those places,
including the YouTubes, and, bythe way, I'm not very good at it
.
But I'm working on getting allof these episodes uploaded in a
video format to YouTube and thatwill happen eventually.
But you can, if you like tolisten to podcasts on YouTube,
(30:46):
subscribe to this there as wellas a podcast feed.
You'll pick up the RSS everytime and you can, I guess, sit
there and stare at the cover artand Sean's lovely face and
listen to it there as well.
But I know a lot of people liketo listen on YouTube.
If you want another way tosupport the show, really the
best thing you can do is tell afriend about it.
That word of mouth and tellingyour friend is the best way to
(31:06):
spread any kind of media,including podcasts.
If you want to pick up somemerch or support the show
financially, there's a coupleways you can do that.
Go to planthropologypodcastcomand click on the merch tab and
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You can get there and you cango to buymeacoffeecom slash
planthropology and, in additionto paying for hosting fees and
(31:29):
things like that, you will buyme caffeine.
This show runs on caffeine.
All right, we're back.
So, sean, in your day-to-daywhatever that, whatever real job
, day job, whatever you want tocall it you do landscape work
and you actually like put plantsin the ground and get outside
(31:50):
and get your hands dirty, whichis something that I feel is so
valuable in this field, and Ijust want to learn more about
that.
Talk about the kind of work youdo, what kind of landscapes you
like to work in, how does thatlook?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So currently, I'll say I started my own landscaping
business Time is relative Acouple of years ago, but before
that I was doing residentiallandscaping for a number of
years ago, but before that I wasdoing residential landscaping
for a number of years as well,and so it's mostly people's
properties and it's nowadaysit's just a couple of cottages,
(32:22):
and I have my consistent list ofamazing, wonderful clients and
I tend to their propertiesoutdoors.
So I do a lot of lawn and gardenmaintenance.
I plant their gardens, I buytheir plants for them, I tend to
their lawns if they even have alawn and then I do their winter
stuff as well shoveling roofsand whatnot.
That's not fun, but it's partof the job, part of it.
(32:44):
I would love to do a little bitmore design work, but that
would entail a bit of a careershift in that I just don't have
time, and so I would need tohire people to do the job that
I'm currently doing for thesewonderful clients that I don't
want to give up.
They're amazing human beings.
I'm at a point where I cancater my own clientele now it's
wonderful In order to have time.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I'd have to hire people in order to have time to
do more no-transcript Because Ithink when people hear
(33:42):
landscaper they think a very Idon't know exactly specific
thing.
Like you are same Gamgee,trimming hedges and rings of
power.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's on my off time .
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, Everyone needs a hobby, but in my experience,
as someone who's done it too,it's never just.
It's such a diverse job, it'snever just one thing and you
almost have to end up being likea jack of all trades.
You end up having to do alittle bit of construction work.
You do irrigation work, you dolandscaping or you do like plant
care, you do planting and plantremoval and tree pruning and
(34:15):
you put up holiday lighting andyou shovel roofs, and it's never
just one thing.
And I think that's reallyimportant for folks wanting to
get into this industry tounderstand a little bit like
there are firms where it's allI'm going to do is do design
work or I'm going to do this onething, and that's true.
But especially people likeworking for themselves in this
field, you need to learn andit's a cool opportunity to learn
(34:35):
do a ton of different stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Oh yeah, I will say this.
There are a number ofcontractors that do exactly what
you just said One thing, and Iget that.
And a lot of people have thismentality of if you're going to
do something, do one thingreally well.
And I hate it.
And the reason why I hate itbesides the fact that I'm a
little ADHD hobby gremlin thatdoes too many things for his own
good and can't complete a hobbyI just do a lot of things.
(34:59):
Typically, when those people dothat one thing really well,
they don't think about the otherthings.
And let me give you an example.
When I worked for a largercompany before I did my own
thing, there was a landscapedesigner from a city a couple
hours away.
They designed the landscape forthis luxury cottage and then
somebody else ordered all theplants from this other place and
(35:21):
plants came in and they werenot in great condition.
It went through a telephonechain and the plants that we
ended up with were not the best.
I wouldn't have picked them.
And then we have them spacedout in such a weird way and put
them in such weird locations,and then what they really didn't
think about which is dig ondesigners specifically is they
don't think about themaintenance and they don't think
(35:41):
about what it looks like afterit's installed.
One month, one year, two years,10 years down the line, what is
that landscape going to do?
Because it's going to grow,it's going to change.
It's going to grow, it's goingto change, it's going to evolve.
How much effort do you want toput in to maintain that sort of
thing?
When you plant like largecommercial properties like that?
I call it commercial stylegardening.
I should say with here's onebig garden with a bunch of one
(36:04):
shrub, just a bunch of them, allof the space in between.
That means you can't have anyother plant or the design is
ruined.
So so anything else thatinfiltrates that space is a weed
and all the space that youleave in between the plants is
space for weeds.
There's no ground cover Halfthe time.
These designers don'tincorporate mulch or maintenance
into these designs.
It really does lend itself tothe success of your work.
(36:27):
If you are a little bit skilledand across the board with all
these different things, I canrepair an irrigation system.
That's not my forte.
I'd much rather contract thatout, but I can.
If I have to, I can build afence Again.
I'd much rather be in thegardens.
But if my clients say, hey, fixmy fence for me, sure, yeah, I
can do that.
So yeah, yeah, being a littlejack of all trades, it really
(36:48):
does help.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And it feeds.
So too, and you made a reallygood point of if you're going to
do design work, if you're goingto be on that part of it, gosh,
it helps to have done theactual work.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Or at least stop and look at the property.
If they get a landscape, likean aerial view of the landscape,
they don't know where the hillsand valleys, they don't know
what's surrounding the property,they just have an overview of
the house or the structure orwhatever and they don't realize
oh, this is South and there aretrees to the South, so really
you have no direct sunlight.
(37:19):
Why are you planting theseplants or whatever?
Yeah, yeah, it helps to havesome experience and to keep
those things in mind.
Like how am I supposed to getfrom the driveway to the
backyard when you landscaped andyou blocked every path back
there?
How am I supposed to get backthere with a wheelbarrow?
Or say I want to rent a skidsteer and do some larger
landscaping for a day, orsomething like that I can't get
(37:42):
there.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's bringing back flashbacks.
So when I was interned withthis landscaper here locally and
we were working on this housethat was built into the side of
a hill a little bit.
So it was interesting becausethe front the first floor patio
and the second floor balconywere both at ground level
because it essentially was likeinto the side of the hill.
So the ground came up andaround the back of the house so
(38:04):
you could walk out your back,his back door and there was like
a garden area, or you couldwalk out the back door on the
second floor and you were justup on the hill, but it was still
also at ground level.
So it's really interesting.
It's cool property.
But the homeowner wanted a waterfeature that started up on the
second floor and flowed downlike waterfall to the first
(38:25):
floor.
And super cool, we can do it,that's going to be great.
But we realized pretty quick ormy boss realized pretty quick
that oh, we can't run a skidsteer up there.
So we mixed concrete or masonrydifferent types of material, we
use concrete and a few otherthings and carried it up the
hill in five gallon buckets tobuild the stream bed that float.
(38:47):
I still think about that job alot, because there's a lot of.
Is this possible?
Absolutely yes, absolutely yes,we can do it.
Is this going to be just likegetting punched in the face?
To do Also yes.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, so I have a similar one.
It's not concrete and cement,that's.
Oh, that's I can only imagine.
And then I'm also envisioningthe maintenance and upkeep with
that and then trying to rebuild.
Or maybe you want to take itdown and do something else.
Oh, that sounds awful.
But I had this one client I nolonger have because, gosh, it
was so frustrating.
(39:21):
They, their gardens, requiredapproximately 27 to 32 cubic
yards of mulch if you wanted toremulch it, and they're
scattered and they have big,uneven stone steps.
They have 62 of them to getfrom the top to the bottom to
the boathouse 62 large, uneven,not flagstone.
(39:43):
We're talking sometimes 12inches, sometimes 8, sometimes
14.
The depth and the.
Yeah, it was like handmade butso poorly thought out.
So I had to wheelbarrow 27yards, plus two extra later, 27
yards of ugly red mulch, veryfluorescent red, like a
(40:04):
charmander, like it was so red,and it went.
I had to wheelbarrow by hand andafter you go down these stairs
awkwardly, you then have to goup the hill into the actual
garden itself.
So then I went I was going downand back up it would take me 20
minutes per wheelbarrow for thelower parts and I'm like it was
(40:25):
mind blowing.
They also, yeah, so in terms ofdesign and maintenance, they
did not think about that.
And the other thing is thatthey had these big beautiful
retaining walls also made out oflarge stones boulders you would
say.
Most normal people wouldprobably say they didn't like
that.
In the cracks of these boulderswas moss, and so they had me
(40:47):
use a trowel to hand scrapebecause they didn't want to
spray the moss, hand scrape themoss off the rocks.
I eventually also had to useI'm not joking was a barbecue
scraper because, yeah, in termsof design and maintenance, this
was unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That's a tough one, yeah, and some of it goes back
to like people don't know.
Sometimes they don't know whatthey don't know and they think
this is what this should looklike, this is what I want it to
look like, and they get set onit.
But to segue a little bit,that's one of the reasons that
organizations like the MasterGardener Association and
community horticulture andeducation associations and
organizations are so important,because it may be that like if
(41:27):
that homeowner or if certainpeople knew oh, maybe this is
not a bad thing.
Maybe having moss here is like anet benefit ecologically or
whatever.
Maybe you didn't have to spenddays scraping rocks with a
trowel and a grill tool.
So let's talk a little bitabout your work and your time in
the Master Gardeners, Becauseyou've I think that's more
recent.
I joined.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I'm getting my five-year pin this year actually
.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So, technically, I joined in the pandemic, I joined
2020 and that was regardless ofthe pandemic.
I actually started looking intolike hort societies and
gardening groups and all thatbecause where we lived, I just
life happens we moved a coupleof times.
I didn't know anybody.
I was looking to socialize withsome garden communities and I
ended up stumbling upon theMaster Gardeners of Ontario and
(42:16):
I thought it was like a club.
I thought it was like aknitting club or something.
I didn't realize what it wasand the more I got to learn, I'm
like oh, this is really cool.
I think you guys might need todo a little better with your
public outreach because I hadnever heard of you before, but
otherwise, that's fantastic.
This is fantastic.
I love this and my experienceis there was an interview, a
(42:37):
meeting with the then supercoordinator for the Muskoka
group.
So in Ontario, the MasterGardeners of Ontario there was
26 different divisions becauseOntario is pretty big, and now I
think there's 25.
I think one group foldedbecause of a lack of membership.
It happens, it's right now.
If I'm being honest with you.
(42:58):
It's an older population thatare within the Master Gardeners
and there's a movement and atrend right now to try to
recruit younger.
So, I had a meeting with thecoordinator for the Muskoka
group, my local group.
I actually happen to reside inthe middle of three different
groups and I had to pick one.
And I just happened to pick theMuskoka group because it's my
brand online cottage country,and I did a quiz and it was a
(43:20):
multiple choice quiz Just assessyour base level of knowledge,
because you have to have somedegree of knowledge if you want
to actually join and be a member.
And after that I like, I like Ipassed.
The only question that I gotwrong was something to do with
termites and and I was like, hey, this question, I actually
didn't get the question wrong.
The question was wrong, it wasfun.
(43:41):
It happens it does.
And so I joined and I wasconsidered a master gardener in
training, and that's a two yearperiod where you're supposed to
complete their, their curriculum, which is like an education
program.
You have to have a certainnumber of credits within a
certain group of topics andwhatnot, and you have to commit
to doing volunteer hours.
(44:01):
It's a nonprofit organizationand that's something that a lot
of people don't seem tounderstand is it's not a cult,
it's not a ranking, it's not adegree of education that you
achieve although there is aneducational component.
It's an organization.
So when I say I'm a mastergardener, what I actually say is
I am a member of the mastergardeners, and I try and
emphasize that whenever peoplesay it, because I'm like, like
I'm not a rank master, I don't.
(44:23):
I have more than 10,000 hours,sure, but I'm not a master, I
don't consider myself an expert.
I had equivalency creditsbecause, dog, I studied plants
for a while, and so I sharedsome of those equivalency
credits and said Do I reallyneed to pay to take these
courses that I've already done?
Is this okay?
And they said You're good,you're good, you're golden.
And so I became a member, I'vecompleted my education, I
(44:44):
finished my two year mastergardener and training time frame
and now I just go around, dotalks and lectures and just
share knowledge and shareexperience.
Teach people without shame totry and bring people into
gardening.
Mostly what I'm doing, if I'mhonest with you, is teaching
people about the mastergardeners, which is ironic.
I was recruited to go out andrecruit people and now?
(45:06):
So the Master Gardeners what are?
They is a nonprofit thatstarted to answer questions that
farmers and other agriculturalpeople were too busy to answer
and they were being inundatedwith these questions.
It was founded over 30 yearsago, or at least the one in
Ontario was 30 something yearsago.
I don't want to give a specificnumber because then I'd have to
(45:28):
fact check myself.
And back in the day, theireducation was paid for, it was
subsidized and you would go toschool, you get an education,
you join this nonprofitorganization and when people ask
questions about their gardens,you ask them and they are hyper
local and they will give youlocal advice for local gardeners
.
And that context again, thatcontext is very important.
(45:49):
And there's a Huntsville inTexas, I believe, a Huntsville.
Yeah, I work in Huntsville, Idon't work in Huntsville, texas,
and so we get those sorts ofquestions all the time about
people who.
There's an Ontario inCalifornia, it's like a town of
Ontario or something like that,but I'm talking about the
province of Canada.
So we get questions all thetime of people asking about this
(46:12):
and that.
And it's up to us to do a bitof Sherlock Holmes detective
troubleshooting to find out whatthe real question is, because
quite often people are like, hey, how come my tomato is not
growing and it really has to dowith their soil, or maybe it
doesn't, or maybe you should setup a security camera because
you've actually got a raccoonwho who knows?
And it's up to us to followthis, this troubleshooting.
(46:34):
And that's where I really lovedthe master gardeners, because I
am a problem solver, I'm ajack-of-all-trades
troubleshooter.
That is what I love doing.
That is my passion when I go togardens is I like to figure it
out, I love to solve the problemand yeah, that's what the
Master Gardeners does.
And this year there was a callout for the board of directors,
(46:55):
because it's a cycle where theboard kind of flips and whatnot,
and there was a big need and soI volunteered.
I said listen, I don't think I'mqualified to take on the role
of president that you wereasking about.
But if there is a need, andthey said, oh yeah, we need, we
do need someone in marketing andpartnerships, and so I'm like,
oh hey, that's yeah, just go outand network, go talk to people,
(47:17):
go shake hands, go makepartners.
Heck, yeah, that's what I'mdoing today, that's what I'm
talking to my buddy.
I think reaching out to peopleand making connections and
networking is so very important.
And, yeah, I became the boardof directors director of
partnerships, and we're doing alittle bit of restructuring this
year the Master Gardeners ofOntario, specifically in regards
(47:38):
to the roles andresponsibilities, the
descriptions, the manual, the,our mandates and whatnot, these
sorts of things that haven'tbeen updated in decades.
This year we're doing a bigrestructuring, I should say.
And so I haven't done anythingas far as being on the board of
directors.
I'm just, I'm there, but Ihaven't done anything yet.
(48:01):
So I don't want to toot my ownhorn here I got.
I'm still new.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
That's cool, though, and I think that's great and
like for people listening,across the world.
There are Master Gardenerassociations in a number of
countries, definitely all overthe United States, probably all
over Canada, and you can find,like you're saying, hyper-local
information, and that's souseful, like I get a lot locally
.
I get a lot of phone calls andemails of like how do I do this
(48:28):
or that, or what's wrong with mytomato, and all that, but my
time is limited, right, there'sjust the one of me, so a lot of
times I'll send those folks tothe master gardeners.
I'm like hey, I think theycould help you a lot more than I
can in this.
They've got more time andthere's a wide breadth of
knowledge and gardeningexperience, so it's really such
a good resource for just anyonewho wants to garden, anyone who
wants to grow plants, to takeadvantage of and it's free right
(48:51):
.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
You just ask them a question and it is their mandate
to give you the best advicethat they can.
I would say, take everythingwith a grain of salt, especially
if you are asking them adviceon social media.
So the Master Gardeners ofOntario has an official Facebook
page, but if you ask a questionon that Facebook page, you are
going to get hundreds ofresponses and there's no way to
(49:12):
say this person is a member andthis person isn't.
So you're getting average Joehomeowners who call themselves
masters because they think theydon't realize that it's an
organization.
They're like I've beengardening for 40 years.
I'm a master, hold on Anyways.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
No, that's no, that's good advice, just in general,
like it.
Just with the internet, like wetalked about at the top of the
episode, make sure you testeverything right, make sure that
you are double checking all theadvice you get, like advice
that I give you if I make sureI'm not lying to you.
I'm not going to do it onpurpose, but I'm wrong, just so
much.
Just so much.
And I want to make sure that Ihad a student call me out in
(49:50):
class a couple of days agobecause I don't remember what I
said but, it was something thatwas like close and I just got
the wires crossed in my head andI said it wrong.
And after class he came up andhe was like hey, like I don't
want to be rude, I'm like no,like you're absolutely right,
and I think that's always a goodopportunity to like make sure
(50:11):
that you are holding the peopleyou get information from
accountable.
So it gives, I think, people agood tool to begin if critically
evaluate things.
Like you go to a goodorganization, you start from a
good place and then you reallyapply it to your life, apply it
to your specific circumstancesand take what's meaningful and
kind of leave the rest.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
In some cases, I think the mark of a good teacher
and communicator and educatoris the ability to take those
challenges, because quite oftenI'll have people say what about
this?
I just don't know.
I'm not scared to say I don'tknow.
It's been so long.
I don't know.
What about this plant.
I've never heard the name ofthat plant before.
I don't know.
But I'll look into it for you,not a problem.
(50:52):
Yeah, but the people who getoffended if you challenge what
they just said, that is a majorred flag and unfortunately I
can't properly hear anythingelse that they have to say after
that.
I, we went to, I was at aconference last year around this
time last year and somebodysaid something just sacrilegious
.
It was just so outrageous.
It was like a quote, it was amisquote from some statistics
(51:15):
and I was like I can't.
That's so wrong.
Why would you phrase it likethat?
I know what you're saying.
What you're saying istechnically true, but the way
that you framed it was soinappropriate and it gives the
wrong impression that I can'ttrust anything else that you
have to say after that.
You what you had just saidearlier as well.
Test things for yourself.
Try, get your hands dirty, makemesses, miss, frizzle it up in
(51:40):
the garden magic school bus wasvery inspirational, and that's
what I do on tiktok now is Istopped giving people advice and
I started showing people myexperiments, because I like
messing around with plants, Ilike having fun, I like seeing
what works, what doesn't work.
I don't have the answers allthe time, and sometimes the
internet doesn't either, solet's just try it, just see if
it works.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, that's I think that's a healthy way to I don't
know engage with being a contentcreator, being an educator and
being someone who puts that outthere, because, again, we have
to approach everything withhumility and with teachability.
And just again it goes backjust don't be a jerk as we wrap
up here, because I just lookedup and we're over an hour
(52:20):
already, which is awesome, and Iagain, it's fun to get lost in
these conversations sometimes.
If you had a piece of advice tothrow at our listeners,
something to take home whetherthat is the best way to shovel
snow off a roof, or gardenadvice, or whatever it is what
would that be?
What do you want to leave withthe planthropology people?
Speaker 2 (52:39):
You're going to make mistakes, and that's okay,
that's encouraged.
You don't know everything.
You'll never know everything,and that's not something to be
daunting or overwhelming.
It's inspiring, it's.
I don't want to know everything, because then everything would
be boring.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Yeah, Really good.
No, I don't think about that alot.
It's easy I made a mistake andjust to hate yourself for it,
but it's part of the process.
That's how we learn, we'rehumans.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
Yeah, I do expect a new, an entirely new merch
lineup, just based on quotesfrom this.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You know I've got a bunch.
I've got them all jotted downhere.
I'll work on it.
Sean, where do we find you?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Sure, sure.
As I mentioned more than oncehere is, I'm one of the co-hosts
of Plants Always Win, a podcastlike this one.
Go listen to it, subscribe.
As Vikram says, I wear a sizefive review.
I do appreciate that.
You can find me on Instagramand TikTok.
At Garden Guy Muskoka we are.
Our podcast also has othersocials, so Plants Always Win or
(53:38):
Plants Always Win podcast.
Unfortunately, we got to apoint where usernames are hard
to secure across the board, soif you go to plantsalwayswincom,
you'll find links to all thesocials and whatnot.
I'm not as active on Instagramas I used to be.
It's just because it neverpicked up traction and so I was
never encouraged to continue,but I would love to do a little
bit more there.
(53:59):
Stay tuned.
Actually, this summer, aaronand I are hoping to turn our
podcast into a more activeYouTube series talking about
mostly our own experiences, whatwe're doing in the gardening,
why, what worked, what didn'twork.
I don't want to tell you whatto do.
It's a two-way conversation.
I want to share my experiencesand answer questions, but we're
really trying to not go downthat very easy rabbit hole of
(54:20):
telling I'm giving peopleunsolicited advice.
Yeah, that's where you can findus, I think.
I don't think there's anythingelse, I'll find it, oh, okay, oh
, you can add me on Pokemon Go.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Pokemon Go.
I need to start playing.
Yeah, it's fun times, sean.
I really enjoyed that.
It is always fun to chat withyou and I appreciate your
insight and just your approachto a lot of things, from
education to gardening tocontent creation just everything
you do.
I like the energy and the Idon't know attitude you bring to
(54:53):
it.
So thanks for being you, thanksfor doing this.
This was a lot of fun and wewill talk again soon.
Thank you for having me Makemistakes, be imperfect.
It's how we learn and it's howwe get better at things.
Thanks so much, sean, for yourinsight and your wisdom and your
time and just for being such acool dude and such a good friend
.
Thanks to you for listening toPlantthropology and making this
(55:15):
possible.
You know that I do this for youand you know that I love you
and it's just been such apleasure over the past six years
to do Plantthropology.
Thanks one more time to theTexas Tech Department of Plant
and Soil Science and the DavisCollege for supporting the show.
Plant Anthropology is written,directed, hosted whatever other
things happen to make a podcasthappen by me.
(55:35):
Our intro and outro music is bythe award-winning composer,
nicholas Scout, and the mid-rollmusic that plays behind
whatever weird stuff I'm sayingto you is by my buddy, rui, and
his fabulous lo-fi dad beats.
Keep being kind to one another.
If you have not been kind toone another, this is probably a
(55:56):
really good time to start.
I'm just gonna say Keep beingreally cool.
Plant people, be safe, be goodand I will talk to you next time
.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Thank you.
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