Dr. Cheryl Hosler, creator of Nature Check and The Roving Naturalist, shares her journey from feeling inadequate in science to becoming a postdoctoral researcher and innovative science communicator who uses storytelling and gaming to connect people with ecological concepts.
• Cheryl's educational path from English major to scientist, overcoming early discouragement in high school science classes
• The limitations of the "deficit model" in science communication and why simply providing information rarely changes behavior
• How cover crops function in agricultural systems and their ecological benefits
• The importance of applied science that directly addresses stakeholders' needs
• Why scientists should study humanities to develop critical thinking and empathy
• Using Dungeons & Dragons and other tabletop role-playing games to humanize scientists and make science accessible
• The Roving Naturalist YouTube channel and its approach to science communication
• How community and "groups of belonging" influence our attitudes and behaviors
Find your community and surround yourself with people who help you see the best version of yourself that could be. The right community will motivate you to become that person.
As always, thanks so much for listening! Subscribe, rate, and review Planthropology on your favorite podcast app. It helps the show keep growing and reaching more people! As a bonus, if you review Planthropology on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser and send me a screenshot of it, I'll send you an awesome sticker pack!
Planthropology is written, hosted, and produced by Vikram Baliga. Our theme song is "If You Want to Love Me, Babe, by the talented and award-winning composer, Nick Scout. Midroll tunes are by Rooey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is up?
Plant people it's time oncemore for the Plantthropology
Podcast, the shore.
We dive into the lives andcareers of some very cool plant
people to figure out why they dowhat they do and what keeps
them coming back for more.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand humble guide in this journey
through the sciences and, asalways, my friends, I am so
excited to be with you today.
Hey, I have some questions foryou just here, right off the bat
(00:20):
bat.
Do you like Dungeons andDragons?
How about storytelling and roleplaying and figuring out
yourself and how to gain empathyfor other people?
Do you love the story andpoetry of science?
Well, if any of those thingsare true and if you just like
really cool people, you're goingto love today's episode.
My guest for today is Dr CherylHosler, the creator of Nature
(00:41):
Check and the Roving Naturalist.
She is a brilliant sciencecommunicator and really I say
that a lot and I talk about alot of people, but I find Cheryl
to be incredibly inspirationalin this whole thing where we try
to tell the story of the worldaround us.
She is a postdoc at Penn StateUniversity, a recent PhD, so
(01:02):
everyone say congrats to DrHostler.
And just such a good person,just such a good person.
She's one of a few people thatactually got me into playing
tabletop games like Dungeons andDragons.
There's another one that we'lltalk about in the show called
the Wild Sea, and I still feellike I'm not very good at it,
but she's so kind about the waythat she puts information out
(01:22):
there and the way that she tellsthe story of communicating with
people and the way that sherelates to people and talks
about science.
I think you're going to lovetoday's episode.
We cover a lot of ground today.
We talk about everything fromthe experiences that shape us
into the educators we want to beand the scientists we want to
be and just maybe, the people wewant to be.
We talk about community.
We talk about finding a reallygood group of belonging.
(01:45):
We talk about community.
We talk about finding a reallygood group of belonging.
We talk about the importance ofnuance and context in science,
communication and nature andfinding our roots and getting
back to asking good questionsand remembering what it's like
to not know anything and tobuild our experiences and the
way we communicate on that.
So great episode, and I thinkthat you're going to love Cheryl
(02:05):
just as much as I do so, grabyour favorite set of dice and
get ready for episode 118 of thePlanthropology podcast, the
poetry of science nature checkand groups of belonging, with Dr
Cheryl Hosler.
What's your cat's name?
(02:42):
This is Puzzle.
Puzzle's a good name.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you, we get that a lot.
The kittens are Cipher andWhisper, so we have like a teen
cartoon team going on.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
It's fantastic, cheryl.
I am so excited to get to talkto you today.
I think we talked about this along time ago and I'm glad that
it is finally getting so.
Thanks for agreeing to be on.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Thanks for being a part of this and tell us about
you.
Oh gosh, yes, thanks for havingme About me.
Well, I was born in, yeah, Iguess like I grew up in a family
that was always really intolike spending quality time
outside, and so I just sort ofdeveloped this love for nature
and have pursued a few differentcareer paths, but all related
to the natural world.
So I guess that's me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Very cool.
So you're currently a I believeat, so can you take us through
sort of the process to get therefrom school to figuring out
what you want to do?
Because I think that'ssomething that I like to get
into is, like, why do you loveplants?
Like, why are you into thething that you do?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, which school do you want me to start at for the
timeline?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Oh, wherever you'd like Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So, like I said, I was really into nature and stuff
growing up and so as I wasmoving into high school I
thought maybe I wanted to becomea biologist.
And I had a few roughexperiences in high school which
unfortunately is apparently apretty common experience and by
the end of those years in highschool, pretty much I just felt
(04:10):
like I was not good enough orsmart enough to be a scientist.
So, when I started myundergraduate at Penn State, I
came in as an English major,which I love reading and writing
and doing critique ofliterature, so that was really
fun.
And then realized that therewas a major that I could get
that would allow me to walk inthe footsteps of some of the
(04:31):
mentors that I'd really valuedat a summer camp that Penn State
runs that I went to as a kid,and so I decided to double major
and do this recreation parksand tourism management major.
So I learned informal education, pedagogy and team building
stuff and how to teach peoplehow to rock climb and canoe and
whatever, and so I spent a fewyears after undergrad doing all
(04:54):
of that kind of stuff and it wasreally fun.
I've worked with every agegroup, people with special needs
.
I've worked 200 plus personlive animal presentations.
I've done summer camps.
So it was all really fun.
But there were a few reasons whyit didn't feel like a
sustainable career for me and I,with a few more years of
frontal lobe development,thought maybe I should try
(05:16):
giving science another try.
So, yeah, I found a universitythat I thought would be a good
fit for this attempt.
So I was in the Chicago regionat the time and there's a bunch
of universities there in thecity, but they're all like
really big universities.
So there's a smaller universitycalled Northern Illinois
University that's in NorthernIllinois and it's an R2, so a
(05:40):
little bit smaller, but still aresearch school, and they have
master's degrees and they alsowere still teaching a lot of the
ologies classes, so likeentomology, ornithology,
mammology, whatever.
And so for all of those reasons,I thought that would be a good
fit and I basically just emailedthe graduate coordinator and
was like, what would I need todo to like be allowed to apply
(06:03):
to grad school?
And he was like, oh well, youneed two semesters of
undergraduate biology andchemistry at the very least,
because I didn't have any ofthose.
Right, you didn't actually haveto take any science classes
beyond your gen eds in order toget a degree in teaching people
about nature, which is weird,okay, but yeah, so I went to the
(06:23):
community college and tookintro bio and chemistry and then
I did the cold email thingwhere I found somebody within
that department who would takeme on as a student and while I
was doing all of that, I alsotook entomology as a student at
large.
So it was like you're not likean undergraduate, but you aren't
formally in the graduateprogram.
(06:44):
And so eventually I did make itin and I did my master's for
three years there in restoredtall grass prairie, which was
incredible.
I'd grown up in the hardwood ormixed forests of the Northeast,
which are beautiful, and Ihadn't really understood what
was so great about the Midwest,because so much of it is corn
and soybeans, but the prairie isjust incredible.
(07:06):
It really is.
And so, yeah, I think like thatwas a wonderful experience.
And then I did another round ofcold emailing to find an
advisor for my PhD at adifferent university that I was
in one of the universities indowntown Chicago, the University
of Illinois Chicago, and I dida five year Ph-year PhD where I
was studying pollination, soreally very much focused on
(07:29):
plants.
For that project I raised twodifferent species of plants that
are non-self-pollinating andused their seed count as a way
of quantifying the pollinationservices they receive, because
they can only make seeds ifinsects move their pollen for
them.
So that was amazing.
And then, when I was gettingclose to the end of my PhD, I
started applying for jobsfaculty jobs and postdocs and I
(07:51):
wound up finding this reallycool opportunity back at the
university where I started, atPenn State, being supervised by
two PIs on synthesizing the datafor a long term project.
So they've been running thisproject basically since I
graduated from Penn State alittle over 12 years ago.
So I've joked with them thatthey started this project so
(08:12):
that I could come back and workon the data for them.
But this project is looking atthe responses of a whole bunch
of different species of covercrops to the environmental
variation across years, and thenwe'll also be getting into how
those different species providea bunch of ecosystem services to
the farm fields where they'rebeing planted.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So yeah, oh, wow, no, that's fascinating, yeah, yeah.
And again, it's no surprise I'ma nerd, like I nerd out about
this stuff, but like peopledon't realize how big of a deal
crops are, like it's soimportant from an ecological
standpoint and a soilconservation standpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I'd never heard of them.
But now it's just like this isthe coolest thing.
Nobody in the Midwest, reallyor not nobody, but very few
people in the Midwest do covercropping because they have so
much land and they just pump itfull of nutrients and whatever.
But yeah, we're working withorganic growers here in the
Northeast and yeah, covercropping, I guess, is really
popular and I've gone to a fewextension runs.
(09:10):
These like farmer learningcircles where the farmers can
come and like learn from oneanother, and it is just
incredible to me how much theseguys like experiment on their
own farms to try to figure outwhat will work best for them.
It's really cool.
So our project was sort ofdesigned based on what those
farmers have been trying.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
See, that's so cool, and when we talk about research,
I think it's actuallyespecially right now, and for
those listening right now couldmean a lot of things.
But I think, as we record this,the I don't know applicability
of science is something that'sreally important to talk about,
and how you and I, asresearchers, as scientists,
(09:50):
understand that like science forthe sake of science is never
that like we're doing it to this.
Okay, sometimes it is, but like, but like it can build
fundamental baselines for a lotof things.
Right, like we're, we're, we'refinding a starting point.
Right, we're finding newquestions, those things.
But you're thinking aboutapplied science.
It's like oh no, these farmers,these growers, these
(10:11):
stakeholders, whoever are doingand they're trying things, why
don't we help them figure outwhy it works or how to make it
work better, and all of that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's really, I think, especially in agriculture and
in the plant world, like areally important thing that we
need to lean into a bit.
It's kind of the same principleas traditional ecological
knowledge TEK right that, likethe people on the ground doing
the thing know how to do thething.
And what we, the researchscientists, are good at and
therefore is to quantify andlike really zoom in on those
(10:56):
patterns and come up with theexact causal relationship,
sometimes because, like,anecdotal evidence for why
something works may not be theactual reason.
So, yeah, I really like beingan applied scientist and like
working hand in hand with thepractitioners at all of these
different locations.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
For sure, that's super cool.
And to take a step back, Iactually wanted to say
congratulations because you werefairly recently a doctor
hustler and that's just so cool.
That's so cool.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, it was a weird feeling, but it's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I think weird is such a good way to, just because,
like I remember, for me when Igraduated, I was like everyone
was like Do you feel so good?
I was like I think so.
I don't like my brain hasn'treset yet.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, on the day I defended, after I came out of
the closed door portion, oh,you've passed, or whatever
everybody was like, oh, are youso relieved?
And I was like, well, no,because like good advisors,
don't send you to your defenseunless they know you're going to
pass.
So like I knew I was going topass two weeks ago when I sent
my dissertation to my committee.
But like now I actually get tocall myself doctor and like
(12:03):
that's a big deal for a wholebunch of reasons.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Stemming all the way back to.
Nobody in my family has gottena PhD in anything in like 100
years, and the last one was inbanking and the fact that I
started out thinking I wasn'tgood enough for this, like I
obviously am good enough andsmart enough, but it took me a
really long time and a lot ofwork to demonstrate that to
myself.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Listen, you're kind of speaking my language.
I get it, but from the outside,looking in, I can tell you that
I've always thought the worldof what you do and I, like, I've
always thought of you as just areally great scientist and
communicator and it's just soexciting that you're in a place,
maybe, where you're feelingthat now too, and that's pretty
cool.
I haven't, as a total aside hasnothing to do with plants.
(12:49):
Obviously there have to be PhDsin, but I've literally never
thought of that being.
It has never popped into myhead before.
When my grandmother told me up,I was like oh huh, okay, I mean
cause clearly they would have tobe like there's phds and
everything.
It's just I don't know.
Sorry, but that it's like whenyour brain's like humming along
(13:11):
and then something just kind ofsticks it like a gear, like like
a stick in the spokes.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I'm just like until you've handled it yeah, I have
to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Well, I want to talk, as we go through this, a little
bit more about specificallysome of the work you're doing
and to the extent that you cantell.
But for those that aren't likefamiliar, can you give us like
the elevator pitch for what acover crop is, because I think
that's poorly understood.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, so the way I've been explaining it to people
and again, like just under ayear ago I was learning this but
yeah, the way I've beenexplaining it to people is that
cover crops are domesticatedcrop species that are planted on
fields when the cash crop isn'tgrowing.
So, like, the cash crop in therotation that we're looking at
(13:56):
is organic corn, organicsoybeans and organic winter
wheat, and then the cover cropsare grown between the winter
wheat and the corn.
And what absolutely blew mymind is that you plant these
seeds in like late August, earlySeptember, and then they grow
in the autumn and then they growagain in the spring and then we
(14:19):
terminate them.
So sometimes people harvestcover crops Ours are just
getting plowed into the soil inMay and then you plant the corn
in that same soil.
And yeah, it was kind of weirdfor me to think about planting
annual seeds in the fall andasking them to grow, like in the
coal.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, it's like good luck, have fun.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Exactly, but like it's so interesting because,
like I said, my first job issynthesizing all these data and
understanding how the differentspecies respond to the
environment and it's sointeresting to see the trends
for like which ones of them liketo have their feet wet Right,
so they respond positively toprecipitation, and which ones
like the cold or don't like thecold.
It's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
We mostly grow well, at least where I am.
We mostly grow cotton grow well, at least where I am.
We mostly grow cotton.
There's a little bit of sorghum, milo, depending on you know,
whatever which part of thecountry you're in A few other
things, but it's mostly cotton.
And so there's some peoplestarting to do winter wheat and
a few other things in rotation.
Some are doing like alfalfa,but you know I'm out here in.
(15:20):
This is also a prairie, it's ashort grass prairie, so it's a
little different.
But we're also right next tothe desert, like if you go next
door to the West, it is theChihuahuan Desert, like it's the
real kind of like capital Ddesert, and so we get these big
dust storms that come throughhere and it's like every second
(15:42):
Tuesday is like the dust bowlagain, and I think people are
getting to a point where like,oh, you mean bare plow fields
are not great for that, likemaybe that's going to blow away.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
How did we not learn that lesson 100 years ago, Right
?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
right, exactly, and it's just in the past oh, maybe
15 years, 10, 15 years thatpeople are really working in the
cover crops or doing reducedtillage or leaving stubble in
the fields and things like thatover the winter, just to like,
hey, let's keep the soil whereit's supposed to be, because
they don't need it in Oklahoma,like it's our soil, let's leave
(16:18):
it here.
But it's becoming more popularand we think about, like
different agricultural systemsand I don't know if it's, I
guess it does fit in theregenerative ag in some ways, in
a little bit, as we try to like, think about how we go into the
future and be more ecologicallyminded.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I think it's such a big deal yeah, I mean especially
a lot of the work here wasmotivated by the fact that we're
in the chesapeake bay watershed, so like that is a fragile
watershed anyway.
And then you take into accountthe fact that we're in the
Chesapeake Bay watershed, solike that is a fragile watershed
anyway.
And then you take into accountthe fact that in this part of
the East Coast a ton of farmersare doing dairy or poultry, and
so they have a lot of manurethat they want to get rid of.
(16:56):
And so how do we like allowthem to spread that manure on
their fields to provide nitrogenand other nutrients to their
cash crops, but not watch all ofthose nutrients just like run
off every time it rains, or likewhen the snow melts and just
wind up in the Chesapeake Baycausing problems?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So, yeah, one of the like main ecosystem services
that this project has beenfocused on is nitrogen leaching
and like studying how thenitrogen is moving or staying in
the fields yeah, oh, I mean,and I again I could, I'm trying
to rein myself in a little bitbecause like there's so much
(17:35):
that my brain's like oh yeah, Ijust talked to my students about
fertilizer runoff and showedthem pictures of dead fish.
They did not love.
I, I don't.
But like, those are theconversations I think we have to
like have like it's bad for thefish.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
A lot of humans like we we have like a strong bias
towards like mammals and themore distantly and animals
related to us like the lessempathetic people feel.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So I'm glad that they were sad about the dead fish oh
, there were certainly a few ohwhat and like, and I don't know
if it was more of just like thegross algae sludge that they
were reacting to or the fit, buteither way, I got an awe out of
them, so that's something likeso.
So I'm curious.
I was looking over you for onething you've published a lot
(18:19):
more than I am.
You're a better that.
But do you see yourself in thefuture like staying in research?
Would you like to teach what'skind of your idea?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, Well, so first too, you were going to say you
looked over my like GoogleScholar or something Like there
are a lot of papers on there,but a lot of like I only have
two first author paperspublished so far.
I have a few more in peerreview right now.
I have a few more in peerreview right now, but most of
those papers are because I'vebeen fortunate enough to work in
like really big collaborativeresearch groups.
(18:50):
No-transcript.
I think like doingcollaborative science is
something that really makes mevery happy, because none of us
(19:11):
are, none of us can do thisalone the days of publishing
single author papers are, andprobably should be over oh yeah,
I gotta remember the last.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You see them every now and then, and it's usually
by someone that's beenresearching in the field for 112
years and like.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, but yeah.
So I'm just, I'm so grateful toeveryone that I've been able to
work with because they've beenreally rewarding experiences.
But yeah, where do I see myself?
I mean, I would very much liketo be a PI at a research
university because research isso much fun.
A prominent public figurerecently said that scientists
are afraid to ask questions, andI was flabbergasted because the
(19:54):
one thing we really like to dois ask questions.
So, yeah, I would love a careerwhere I get to like pursue the
questions and mentor studentsindividually with research,
because I've had so many reallygood and valuable mentors.
I want to sort of pass thatforward to the next generation
of students.
But I also really love teaching.
My first career inenvironmental ed, I loved
(20:17):
engaging with students and eventhough classroom teaching with
grades and stuff is a littledifferent than like teaching
during summer camp, I stillreally do love teaching,
especially those sort of likeintroductory classes, because
that's where you get peopleexcited and engaged who might
not otherwise have thought thatthey would be.
So, yeah, I would love to be aprofessor at a research
(20:37):
university so that I can do theteaching and the mentoring and
the research.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Very cool, yeah.
And again, like I love that youtalk about it that way, because
I hear sometimes I don't wantto say like colleagues I teach
with we actually have a verylike strong teaching faculty at
my institution and like theyreally love the students.
But I hear it thrown aroundsometimes that like, oh, I hate
teaching freshmen and undergradsand those intro classes, blah,
(21:03):
blah, blah.
And again the 112 tenure, likewhatever.
But it is so important, likewhat's our job?
Right, we are trying to buildscientific consensus, but to do
that as part of that, we have tobuild and train the next
generation of scientists andenthusiasts.
And what better way to do thatthan to be really fun in an
(21:24):
intro class?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, what better way to do that than to be really
fun in an intro class.
Yeah well, and also I learnedthat this was something feinman
did that like he really likedand would try, I guess, every
semester to teach, like physics101 or whatever, because it
allowed him to remember what itwas like to be at the beginning
and not know anything, which Ithink think is so important,
like again, as a sciencecommunicator, especially like so
(21:47):
many people sort of forget whatit's like to be the student at
the beginning, not knowinganything, whether they're
talking about undergraduates orgraduate students.
Even I've mentored severalgraduate students here since
I've been a postdoc that arelike, oh, like, how did you
learn this?
And like it's OK, like, likeyou don't have to know all of it
right now, like that's whyyou're here, right?
So, yeah, I think like beingreminded what it's like to not
(22:08):
know any of it is important.
But also students who don'tknow all of it already have
different perspectives and mightcome up with cool ideas that we
hadn't considered because we'vebounded ourselves so much by
like the conventional knowledgeand literature.
Like if you don't know anything, you can just ask any question
and you might hit upon somethingcool that nobody else thought
(22:28):
of.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Oh, that's so good.
Yeah, that is such a good, Ithink, perspective, because I
like the way you frame that inthe reminding ourselves about
where we started.
Right, returning somebody,because I think about coming in
to do my master's.
So I actually have a bachelorof arts in horticulture and,
like I studied landscape designand I at the time didn't know
(22:53):
you weren't supposed to go froma bachelor of arts to a master
of science and so I was justlike I'll apply for it.
I don't know, I didn't know anybetter, and they were like well
, we don't really do that, butokay, and so I ended up making
the program and it was that it'sthe whole process.
I tell people that we teach ourundergrads about science, we're
(23:13):
trying to give them a body ofknowledge, and then we teach our
master students.
We're walking them throughreally, or undergraduate
researchers, but really the nutsand bolts of gaining knowledge.
Then at the PhD level, we'rekind of teaching them how to do
(23:34):
it for themselves, how to runtheir own programs, and I think
that sort of stepwise process,the farther you get away from it
, it is hard to sometimes lookback and be like, oh no, I've
been that kid, like I know thestudent that's 18 years old and
it's the first time out of thehouse and they're excited about
something that's really cool.
So, okay, you mentioned aminute ago that part of what you
(23:55):
do is science, and outside ofthe research and outside of the
university life, you do sciencecommunication.
What made you want to get intothat?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I guess I was a science communicator before I
knew that was the name of thejob, because being an
environmental educator is just asubgenre of science
communicator, right, like I was.
Just I was doing it in personthrough programming and so, yeah
, when I was taking thatentomology class, when I was a
(24:24):
student at large.
That prof was great.
She was super helpful insupporting me and making me feel
like I belonged.
And she not that far into thatsemester was like, have you ever
thought about sciencecommunication?
Like she knew a tiny bit aboutwhat I had done in my previous
career and I think a lot of itwas just like the way I spoke
during like class presentationsand things like I don't know.
(24:45):
I just sort of developed thisskill set as a theater kid, as
an environmental educator, Imean all of us are just
know-it-alls and I've justreally practiced being a
know-it-all in a way that peopleappreciate listening to.
I mean, there's no such thingas, like, a perfect communicator
.
But yeah, I've had a lot ofpractice with those skills of
(25:07):
thinking about how to presentinformation in ways that will be
accessible to differentaudiences and I think that's
like the really important part.
I was I was hired to be thebroader impacts for someone's
grant.
I've been making videos abouttheir research project, which is
great.
But when I asked them before Istarted filming like so what's
your intended audience?
(25:27):
They were like everyone, and Ithink that is so often.
Like what?
Like scientists or other peoplewho are like trying to
communicate information are likeI want everyone to know and
like that's just not going towork because not everyone
receives information the sameway.
And so the fact that I havepracticed working with kids with
(25:48):
sight impairments, kids on theautism spectrum, kids of all
ages, adults of all ages,families, like all of these
different groups I've played theaccordion, I guess, with the
information and figured out howto transpose it for the needs of
each group.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And that is a real skill.
Like that's that is notsomething everyone can do and I
think that people watch sciencecommunicators online and we do
all this stuff and you make itlook easy, but like that's
really something that one,there's like a natural aptitude
that a lot of people have for it, but two, like that's a craft
(26:26):
you have to.
It's really something you haveto figure out.
There's so much I don't knowback end work and almost science
that goes into how we sciencecommunicate.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, I definitely was not asconfident or as good at it now
back then as I am now.
But yeah, I think the sciencethat goes into science
communication is also a reallyimportant point.
There is a lot of cool researchon science communication,
theagogy, the effect.
I even know of a researcher who, like, specifically looks at
(26:56):
science communication withaudiences of like faith
backgrounds.
But a lot of sciencecommunicators don't know that
exists, or they and, or theydon't read it, and it's a really
weird like circle for me.
I guess that, like the sciencecommunicators are constantly
like I want to teach theimportant stuff to the people,
but like the sciencecommunicators are constantly
like I want to teach theimportant stuff to the people,
but like the sciencecommunication researchers are
(27:18):
like I want the sciencecommunicators to know the
important stuff about how to dowhat they do, and like nobody's
talking to us yeah, huh and yeah, it seems like we are missing a
piece in the middle theresomewhere the like who
communicates to the like, who'sthe extension service between
the scientists and the sciencecommunicators, instead of, like,
(27:38):
the scientists and the generalpublic, like there's like that.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I hadn't really thought of that.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That's really an interesting point so are you
aware of the deficit model orlike what that means?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
in a very loose sort of way.
The deficit.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
model is this like way of teaching us, and science
communicators often sort of fallinto this.
Because model is this like wayof teaching us, and science
communicators often sort of fallinto this because it feels
intuitive to us.
Right, the if they only knewRight.
If my audience only knew thatbuying this product from this
company was causing waterpollution in some other part of
the world, then they wouldn't dothe thing Right Like.
If only they knew they wouldchange their behavior.
(28:11):
But research in the socialsciences has demonstrated over
and over again that changingknowledge does not change
attitudes and even changingknowledge and attitudes does not
necessarily change behaviorsand like that's all really
interesting.
And I went down kind of a rabbithole on this and realized that
about every 10 years in thesocial science literature there
(28:32):
is a paper that's like, hey, thedeficit model doesn't work.
So approximately every 10 yearsthe science communication
researchers are also going.
If only the sciencecommunicators knew, because it's
just a paper in theirliterature, right Like it's
published in the sciencecommunication, research or
(28:52):
social science journal.
It's not being disseminated tothe science communicators and so
a lot of people still fall intousing the deficit model in the
way they create sciencecommunication content, because
it feels intuitive to us,because in large part, we are
people who change our attitudesand behaviors when we are
presented with new information.
But that is not the way normalpeople work, quite frankly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You're right, though, and that's so.
I did a lot of work, and I havedone, throughout my career, a
lot of work in waterconservation.
That's been a major area ofresearch focus just throughout
time, and a lot of my PhD workwas also actually in, like what
are the practices of different,how do homeowners manage their
water use in the urban landscape, et cetera, and we asked all
(29:37):
these questions.
We did a big survey, and it'sinteresting because a lot of
people say, oh yeah, no, I knowI'm supposed to, or I know I'm
supposed to, but that's all.
Yeah, no, you're right, thatdoesn't bridge the gap all the
time, because the even theintent to change practice
sometimes is not there, despitethe knowledge and it's.
I think we do fall into thattrap of thinking oh well, they
(30:00):
know better, they should dobetter, and but that's just not
how the humans work.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Like, don't, we don't do that well and I like first
realized this back when I waslike still getting my degree in
environmental education, therewas this program.
So the Penn State sort ofenvironmental education center
offers this like week-long camptype thing to all of the
surrounding school districtfifth graders and they just like
(30:25):
go to this camp for a week andthey get their entire
environmental educationcurriculum for the entire year
in that like one week, which isreally cool because a lot of the
I mean this is really coolbecause a lot of I mean this is
central pennsylvania, so a lotof these school districts aren't
like super affluent and sobeing able to like get that cool
, like outdoors, hands-onexperience is really important
for those kids.
But the way all of theseprograms that I've ever worked
(30:48):
in sort of defend theirexistence because by having to
do some sort of survey at theend and like prove with numbers
that they've done somethingright, so like, oh, okay, well,
I'll survey the participantsbefore and after they do this
program and my survey will showthat more of them know the right
(31:09):
answers to these questions andthat I think I phrased that way
intentionally, because it's notjust true or false doing this
leads to water pollution.
The right answers also includethe attitude questions right,
like if you're taking a surveyfor the program that you just
did that was talking about waterconservation, then of course
(31:31):
you're going to answer the waterconservation attitude and like,
oh, yeah, I promise that mybehaviors will change in the
future.
Questions the way you think theinstructors want you to answer,
but the answers on the surveydon't reflect what people
actually go home and do, andlike, yeah, I became aware of
this really early on.
That like, oh, there's thishuge disconnect between, like,
(31:51):
the numbers that we have to useto justify our programs
continuing to be funded andtheir ultimate efficacy.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Goodness, there's a lot more here that we probably
like don't have the time to getinto.
Maybe on part two, like maybewe'll do this again, but there
is a lot to be said about thatand the way that we approach
(32:38):
no-transcript.
But I think that, as scientists, as people interested in the
green in nature, right in thegreen sciences, that's really
something.
Right in the green sciences,that's really something.
And I think that, from theresearchers to just the people
that like going on the park,like I think the, like you said,
broader impacts the now, whatbig picture question is a
(33:02):
question that we have to askourselves a lot and sometimes be
okay with being uncomfortablewith the answers.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I don't know if that's the right way to say that
, but there's, yeah, there's alot there, yeah I also think,
like those of us in the greensciences I like the way you put
that like most of the sciencecommunicators I know are
ecologists of one stripe oranother, and I think there are a
lot of reasons for that, butone of them is that, like, what
we do could actually impactsomeone's attitudes, behaviors
(33:32):
or quality of life couldactually impact someone's
attitudes, behaviors or qualityof life.
Like if a physicist says, hey,I discovered a new star or a new
subatomic particle or whateverpeople are like cool and they
keep going on with their day.
But like if we discoversomething about, like how to do
better farming, like that'simmediately impactful to like a
lot of people along, like a hugesupply chain.
So, yeah, I think like we havea very strong responsibility to
(33:55):
be good at presenting what we'velearned to other people.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Awesome, and that's a good segue and a good time for
a quick break, and when we comeback, I want to talk about the
Roving Naturalists and I want totalk about Nature Check,
because these are both such coolprojects that I think people
need to know about.
So let's take a quick break andthen we'll come back.
Well, hey there, welcome to themid roll.
I hope your house plants aredoing well.
I have to confess I have someplants in my office and they're
(34:23):
just so badly neglected.
I have a little tomato in herethat a friend gave me and I need
to put it outside becausethat's where the tomatoes do
better instead of under thethrow lights, and I have brought
it back from the brink like twoor three times and it builds
character right In yourhouseplants.
Anyway, I hope yours are doingbetter than mine.
Thanks so much for listening toPlantthropology and thanks for
being a part of what we do here.
(34:43):
A huge thanks to Cheryl forbeing on this episode, thanks to
the Texas Tech Department ofPlant and Soil Science for
supporting the show and theDavis College of Agricultural
Science and Natural Resourcesfor doing the same.
If you want to support plantanthropology, there are a lot of
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(35:05):
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(35:27):
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(35:47):
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(36:08):
I drink a lot of coffee.
Anyway, let's get back to itMore with Cheryl in 5, 4, 3, 2,
1.
We're back.
So you have a couple ofspecific projects talking about
science, communication, thedissemination of knowledge to
people, the Roving Naturalistand Nature Check, and you've
(36:31):
been doing both of these forquite a while, like it's been a
long time thing for you, so sotell us a little bit about those
.
Let's start with the rovingnaturalist.
Where did that come?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
from.
So when I decided I was goingto grad school, I wasn't sure
what what my job would look likelike.
I knew it was going to beprimarily me taking classes and
me doing research, and I wasn'tsure how much teaching I would
still be able to do.
Lots of grad students do doteaching through, like TA ships
or whatever, and I certainly didhave opportunities like that
(37:01):
during grad school.
But before I started mymaster's I wasn't sure.
So I promised myself I was notgoing to give up informal
education, because I really dolove it and I really do think
that like learning while you'rehaving fun, or I call it like
guerrilla teaching, right,they're like, oh, we're playing
a tag game, but like you all areostensibly like aquatic macro
(37:21):
invertebrates at the same time,so you're going to learn
something about stream ecologywhile we play tag, right, like
that's a much better, more fun,more effective way to learn than
like sitting in a classroombeing lectured at and again, the
social science like bears thatout.
People almost everybody learnsbetter through active learning,
(37:41):
whether it's like hands-on stuffor just like being engaged
through discussions oractivities.
So I really wanted to sort ofkeep doing informal ed, even as
I like sort of pivoted into thisresearch career.
So, as makes perfect sense, atthe same time that I started my
master's degree, I also starteda YouTube gym, and the Roving
(38:02):
Naturalist was my attempt toanswer all the questions you
never knew you had about howhumans and the environment
interact, and it was really agreat outlet for me to like
explore literature and conceptsthat weren't what I was doing
during my like job Right, solike I was looking at dung
(38:22):
beetles in this tall grassprairie for three years during
my master's, which was amazing,but like that was just one topic
.
But on the Roving Naturalist, Italked about all kinds of
ecological concepts.
I talked about making yourbackyard a habitat.
I read the social scienceliterature about things like the
deficit model and groups ofbelonging and the pedagogy
(38:44):
behind science communication.
So, yeah, it was really anopportunity for me to like do
these deep dives and thencontinue practicing in a new
medium, sharing those thingswith other people.
And the roving naturalist islike primarily talking head
videos and does sort of fallinto the deficit model a bit
because it is me talking at theaudience, but I was really
(39:05):
excited by the idea of usingYouTube because people think I'm
crazy when I say this, becausethere's a comment section which
is wild, because everybody hassaid since the inception of the
internet don't read the commentsection, right, right, teaching
is an interaction for me.
Right, teaching is a two wayprocess, and so I was really
(39:28):
excited that.
Oh yeah, like, youtube videosis a way that I could be doing
science communication and myaudience can give me feedback,
they can ask me questions, theycan contribute their own
thoughts on the topic.
Right, because that's alwaysthe way I've taught.
When I was doing live animalpresentations to like groups of
elementary school kids, I didn'tstart by telling them about the
(39:48):
animal, I brought it out and Iasked them what they noticed
about it or what they knew aboutit, because everyone is smarter
than we give them credit for.
So, like, I really believe thatteaching and learning is a two
way interaction because we canalways learn something from one
another.
So, yeah, I was really excitedabout the comments section
because that would give me a wayto organically interact with
(40:10):
the audience beyond the contentof the video that I was
presenting, which the videoitself is a one-way teaching
interaction right.
Yeah, and so I like deep doveinto like social media and
created a Twitter account and anInstagram and made all these
videos and went to VidConseveral years in a row and like
all of this crazy stuff and likeI don't know.
Chasing numbers in onlinecontent creation is rough, but I
(40:36):
was having so much fun thatdidn't.
I mean, of course it mattered,but it didn't like hurt.
Right, I am never going to likebreak even on that project, but
it's just been so much fun.
And I did an interview serieson the channel called Explain
Yourself where I would interviewearly career scientists,
(40:59):
usually at like academicconferences, and for many of
them I was their first time everbeing interviewed.
But it was just so much fun tolearn about these people and
their journeys through scienceand the research they're doing
and to give them an opportunityto practice talking about it to
a non-professional scientistaudience.
So, yeah, I just the RivingNaturalist has been a blast.
I speak about it kind of in thepast tense because while it is
still live online, I haven'tmade content for it in a few
(41:22):
years.
Because running two sciencecommunication projects and
finishing a PhD during COVID andlike trying to become like a
full-fledged researcher is likea lot.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Kind of a lot, yeah, yeah, it's kind of a lot.
Yeah, wow, yeah.
And you make a reallyinteresting point with some of
these things that there are somany fascinating people out
there with just incredible workthat nobody is from and like
maybe they've published athousand papers but like that's
(41:57):
still something that is it'spaywalled, it's whatever,
something that is it's paywalled, it's whatever.
And so I don't know, I guess,platforming people who have such
a cool story to tell, andusually, I think oftentimes,
something I've found is thatthey're so much better at it
than they think they're going tobe.
Oh, I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm like, well, okay, but youdid great, like it's.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That's such just a cool feeling on this side of it,
on the creation side of it well, and I love to use the word
platforming because, likerunning a podcast or running a
youtube channel, like there wasa financial investment and
there's this like infrastructureor logistics.
Right, like I run the channel,I bought the equipment, I
learned how to use the equipment, all that stuff, and like that
is such a huge barrier to entryto be able to communicate your
(42:43):
science broadly that I was likewell, I already did all that
work.
Now I will make this platformavailable to other people so
they can come on and use myplatform to disseminate what
they know, but without that hugebarrier to entry of having to
buy all the stuff and learn howto run a youtube channel yeah,
which is a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Like that's not easy.
I like, I'll be honest, I'mstill a little scared of YouTube
.
Like if I had my stuff togethera little bit more, I would do
more YouTube.
I've just gotten so into theshort form.
Well, the podcast is not short,but like on the video side, the
short form stuff that I'm likewhat do you mean?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I have to write a script like what do you mean?
That's like I can't just myphone up and talk.
That's funny because, like youdo a great job with that short
form stuff, but like short form,when it like first blew up and
became a thing, I was like do Iwant to pivot to that?
because making long form andshort form content are so
different so different so when Iwas an English major, I had a
prof say that, like, when you'rewriting a novel, you have to
(43:48):
like, focus on every paragraph,right, and when you're writing a
short story, you focus on everysentence, and when you're
writing a poem you focus onevery word, and so, like if a
short form video is to me verymuch like a poem or maybe a
short story, where, like, youhave to have everything like
really dialed in order to likeget the right message across in
(44:10):
the right way, whereas, like ina four to eight minute video,
you have more time to explainwhat you're trying to say.
So, yeah, the short form stuffkind of scares me.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
So yeah, the short form stuff kind of scares me.
Can I just tell you, that wholedescription explanation you
just gave for me is such apowerful encapsulation of why
scientists need to study thehumanities, because and I say
that in all seriousness a deadserious like because we have to
think about the way we approachthings right, and the parallel
(44:43):
between a short form video and apoem is so good, so good, yeah,
anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, all scientists should have to take more
humanities classes than they do,and they should have to take
them more seriously than they do.
I've seen them in the gen edcourses, yeah, like I mean I was
an English major and it's likekind of a meme in society and
even in my personal story.
But like that trained me sowell to be good at so many other
(45:12):
things Right, like learning howto critically read literature
made me really good at readingpapers, and like critically
listening to presentations andhaving to write so many papers
made me really good at writing.
My master's advisor said partof the reason he was so quick to
accept me into his lab isbecause he realized he wouldn't
have to teach me how to writeyeah, I was very flattered to
(45:34):
hear.
But like, yeah, the humanitiesteach those kind of skills
critical reading, criticalwriting and also teach empathy.
And science is not objective,no matter what anybody says,
everything about what we do issubjectively tied to our
identities and our perspectiveson the world.
(45:55):
How I pursue answering them areentirely dependent on my
identity and so, like if morescientists took humanities
courses and had that moredeveloped like front of the
brain empathy, then I think alot of what we're doing would
look very different.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, goodness, yes, yeah, I'm just.
I was just thinking about allthe great clips I'm going to get
out of this episode, likeyou're so good.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
So that actually that leads well into your other
project, the deficit model andgroups of belonging and all of
the social science literaturethat says just presenting
information to people does notchange their attitudes or
behaviors.
But what does?
Is these groups of belongingfriends Right?
Like you are more likely tothink similarly to the people in
(47:01):
your neighborhood or the peopleyou hang out with and like.
If some of them start changingtheir behaviors, then you will
too, right, and which is why wesee lots of sort of like
factions in our society.
And all of that sort of led meto thinking about other ways of
doing science communication.
And then I saw a great talk bya woman at the Ecology Society
(47:24):
conference years ago where shetalked about doing science
communication at her church.
She was very involved with herchurch and she gave a guest
sermon on the importance ofplants in the Bible.
And it was so popular with thepeople at her church that she
was invited to give this guestsermon at lots of other local
(47:45):
churches in the area andapparently it changed a lot of
the people who listened to itbecause they were like, oh yeah,
we are supposed to be stewardsof this world and take care of
all these plants and like plantsare really important.
And like that story really likestuck with me because I was like
, oh so if you sort of stick toyour group of belonging, that's
(48:11):
a better way of doing thiscommunication right, because
people are more likely to trustyou.
You don't have to like work onbuilding trust because they
already know you and they knowthat you have things in common
and stuff like that.
And so I was like, well, whatkind of like group of belonging
do I have that I could sort oftry working on?
And yeah, I'm a nerd and gamingand doing it live on twitch
(48:34):
seemed like a great way to goabout it.
And yeah, the storytellingaspect of tabletop role-playing
games is just sort of the icingon top, because storytelling is
quintessential to the humanexperience.
Right, like for as long as wehave been humans, we have been
telling stories to one another.
That is how we teach each otherthings, whether it is don't go
over there, that's where thelions are, or this is how the
(48:57):
stars work.
All of those are stories, andso framing teaching as
storytelling just really seemedlike a good fit too.
And so, yeah, wound up sort ofsitting on that idea for a while
and then connecting with somepeople on Twitter back when it
was nice to be on scienceTwitter and developed this
project.
So yeah, nature Check, as makesperfect sense, was we started
(49:20):
streaming two months before Istarted my PhD, because I'm
really good at timing these likeyou do at school experience.
Yeah, we've been playing D&D andnow branching out into other
tabletop role-playing games aswell and just like a bunch of
scientists sitting and tellingstories and talking about
science when it's relevant tothe plot, however tangentially
(49:42):
that might be.
But ultimately, my real goalwith this wasn't even the like
teaching content part, so muchas the like showcasing that
human, that scientists are realhuman beings.
Because, like I hear so often,like oh, scientists are this,
that or the other thing and evenin science communication
workshops I would hear thisphrase constantly repeated
(50:04):
scientists aren't good attelling stories.
We need to teach you how, and Iwas like that is malarkey.
I know tons of professionalscientists who are great
storytellers, who are superfunny, who are very creative,
and so nature check is my way ofshowcasing the humans who
happen to do science for theirjobs and like we're real, we're
(50:24):
three dimensional, we're funny,we're bawdy and like ideally,
that will help people trust whatwe have to say about our jobs
because they will feel moreconnected to us yeah, that's
awesome.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Hey, just to like encapsulate it just as a so
nature check.
Basically, you play dnd oranother game game to again tell
good stories and I have to thankyou for inviting me to be part
of this, because I still havelike the most tenuous grip on
what I'm doing and, like Ibefore, I think before you
messaged me and was like, hey,would you like to be involved.
(50:58):
I think I had played, maybetwice, and I think I picked a
cleric that had no healingspells.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know whatI'm doing.
I have to be the healer.
That's fine.
Well, I certainly was not, butI've had, and it's been over a
couple of years and we'vebecause of skin I know you can't
(51:19):
see me people, but justgesturing around it everything.
We haven't gotten to do it likeevery month, but I have had so
much fun being a part of NatureCheck and the Wild Sea campaign
that we're doing and I apologizeand, to those of you that have
listened to any of this or arefamiliar, I feel like I've
unleashed a lot of cursed thingson our campaign, like a
(51:40):
teeth-based currency and I don'tknow man, yeah, poor felix.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So felix is the person who's running the game
for us and he's the creator ofthe game system.
We're using the wild sea, whichyou should all go out and look
at, because it is incredible theart in the book is gorgeous and
the setting is really whatcaught my eye.
So I I met Felix at Gen Con afew years ago.
They had a Wild Sea booth wherethey were selling the books and
(52:09):
they were running like one hourlong one shot games with like
pre-made character sheets sopeople could sit down and like
get a feel for how the gameplaygoes.
And I played a session withFelix where he was one of the
other players and I was justlike this game is awesome and
this setting is awesome and itwould fit so well with nature
check, but also I just want toplay it anyway.
(52:29):
And then I coerced Felix intobeing our game mest for the ship
.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And he's so patient with us.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
He is so patient.
I was going to say you're allvery patient with me Because
it's funny.
He's like we'll log on andeveryone's got notes and stuff
and I'm like I think I'm acactus.
I don't like.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
I haven't taken any notes for that game.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Well, maybe it's Joanna that really is very
detailed with her notes.
One of the people there is like, but it's been so much fun and
so I'll link to some of the like.
Is it so it streams, and isthat mostly where nature check
goes?
Speaker 2 (53:07):
yeah, so we?
Yeah, twitch is the best placeto find us.
We do have a youtube channel,and you can find us on podcast
platforms too.
I've been calling it the deeptime recordings because I think
we are approximately two yearsbehind.
Oops, because editing videosand podcasts takes a while, and
uploading really big, three hourlong videos takes a while too.
(53:28):
So yeah, we're.
We have a bit of a backlog.
Sorry, I'm working on it.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
But yeah, it's totally fine, I totally get it.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Go to our YouTube channel or our podcast stream
and find, I think, like thefirst 50 or so episodes of our
D&D campaign, our long runningD&D campaign, as well as some of
our one shots, and then in theinterim we've done a lot more
one shots, as well as this minicampaign of the Wild Sea, and,
yeah, we stream approximatelytwo Sundays a month right now
(53:55):
because I'm still postdocing isa weird temporary job and so I
don't want to like make a wholebunch of commitments until I
know where I'm landingpermanently.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, but it's really cool
and I think because I think Iwas this person for a while but
for those of you out therelistening that are like I don't
know about D&D, I don't justgive it a shot, because if you
like, truly like, if you likegood storytelling, if you like
just the I don't knowpsychological, mental exercise
(54:28):
of being able to kind of getoutside of what you do and think
through a fun situation, um,it's so much fun, it's so much
fun and I like, I thoroughlyenjoy it and, again, I good at
it and I come up with horriblethings, like a bar called the
dangling uvula and it was awful,like all the mouth, stuff, real
(54:50):
bad.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
So my apologies, no, but you're not bad at it, you, I
mean, you're creative if wacky,and that's like all you really
need, right, like tabletoprole-playing games are great
because they allow us to tellstories, but because, like we
were talking aboutplaying gamesare great because they allow us
to tell stories, but because,like we were talking about
before with the humanities thing, they allow us to exercise our
empathy, and like emotionalcommunication muscles.
(55:13):
Right like you get to step intobeing somebody else and explore
how that person might respondto situations, instead of how
you would respond to them or howthat person might respond to
situations.
So like I don't know, I knowlots of it.
Practice social interactionswithout consequences in the same
way, which is like really cool.
And yeah, I don't know.
I mean, my favorite D&D book isthe Monster Manual because it's
(55:36):
got ties to ecology.
Right, all of these monstershave a biology and an
environment where they live.
No-transcript.
(56:05):
You can explore a world, andyou can build and explore people
too.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I think I have learned things
about myself through it too,just through the self-reflection
of like, how would I like, howdo I want to react to a
situation?
How do I want to react to asituation?
How do I want to react towhatever weird thing is crazy
thing is happening in thestoryline and I'm like okay, but
should that be how I want toreact?
(56:31):
Should that be?
I don't know.
I think it's very like in alike, it's a fun way to
introspect in some ways, and Ithink that's a thing more people
should do, really like, and Ithink it allows you to like I
don't know, evaluate yourmotivations and things like that
too.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's really, it's fun and it's just fun well, and I
think your character in the wildsea game, karn, is like a
really good example of that,because since you're amber clad,
like you have that sort of likeamnesia adjacent kind of life
experience, right.
So like, oh, like what do youlike, what do you remember or
what would you think about this,or like every once in a while
you get a flashback memory andlike I think those are really
(57:09):
cool opportunities to thinkabout.
Like, oh, if Karn is sort ofgetting to reinvent himself
because he doesn't remember whohe was before, like yeah, yeah,
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Well, I was looking at the time and we're over an
hour and I could keep talkingfor quite a while longer.
I'm still thinking about covercrops, shoot, but you know, I
think, as we start to wind down,for one, I have thoroughly
enjoyed this and I appreciatethe way you approach so much of
this and like, to that end, Iask all my guests if you had
something to leave listeners,what would that be?
(57:42):
What do you think is like thething that, for you, is like
foundational and pivotal andtransformational, or like do you
have a good cookie recipe?
I don't care, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
I do like baking.
No, I actually I had to do somesoul searching about this
recently because I was invitedto give a talk at a symposium
and they just wanted me to talkabout myself and my journey and
I was like, how do I like endthis in a way that doesn't sound
weird, because I'm definitelytaking the scenic route and I
think what I realized and what Iwant other people and my
(58:13):
younger self and whoever to knowis that, like, our experiences
in life and the paths that wetake are very much affected by
the people around us.
So the best thing you couldpossibly do for yourself is to
(58:36):
cultivate a community around youthat is going to be good for
you, right, like findingsupportive friends, family found
family.
Finding supportive friends,family found family, whatever
who help you see the best youthat could be and help you feel
motivated to like walk that path.
I think that's what I want myyounger self and everyone else
to know is like go look for goodpeople to surround yourself
(58:57):
with.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
That's excellent advice, very excellent advice,
cheryl, where all can we findyou?
Speaker 2 (59:04):
I know we've talked about a few of the places, but
gosh yeah, so you can find me onblue sky and instagram and the
other place, but I don't reallycheck it yeah me either the
roving naturalist or rovingnaturalist, depending on
character limits, and on youtube.
at the channel the rovingnaturalist, the logo is a yellow
backpack and some hiking boots.
And then you can also find mewhere I live on Twitch on Nature
(59:26):
Check.
The Twitch channel is NatureCheck D&D, because somebody else
was sitting on the Nature Checkhandle already, and we stream
two Sundays a month at least.
And you can also find NatureCheck on Blue Sky and Instagram
and the Other Place.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
So yeah, the Other Place.
I like that.
That's yeah, whatever, whateverwe're calling it these days
this week, but awesome.
We'll link to all that in thedescription and just thank you
for your time and your I don'tknow wisdom and perspective.
I appreciate it Personally.
If nothing else, I very muchappreciate it.
So thanks for being on.
(01:00:00):
It was fun Y'all.
We've been talking so much aboutcommunity this season.
What's really interesting istalking to Cheryl after the
episode a little bit later.
She didn't realize that thatwas sort of the theme of the
season and so her advice is sotimely and so great Find a
community to belong to, and ifsomeone like Dr Cheryl Hossler
is in your community, you cancount yourself lucky, as I do.
Thanks again for listening toPlant Anthropology.
(01:00:21):
You know I do this for you andI'm proud to do it.
Thanks again to Texas Tech andthe Department of Plant and Soil
Science and the Davis Collegefor supporting the show.
Thanks to Cheryl for being apart of it and for just being my
friend.
I appreciate that PlantAnthropology is written,
directed, hosted, producedwhatever else you can think of
by yours truly, vikram Baliga.
(01:00:41):
Our intro music is by theaward-winning composer, nick
Scout.
Our mid-roll music is by mybuddy, rui, and if you like dad,
jazz and lo-fi, you shoulddefinitely check him out.
I hope you're still being kindto one another.
If you have not to date beendoing that, now is probably a
pretty good time to start.
I hope you stay safe.
I hope you stay well.
No-transcript.
What is up?
Plant people it's time oncemore for the Plantthropology
Podcast, the shore.
We dive into the lives andcareers of some very cool plant
people to figure out why they dowhat they do and what keeps
them coming back for more.
I'm Vikram Baliga, your hostand humble guide in this journey
through the sciences and, asalways, my friends, I am so
excited to be with you today.
Hey, I have some questions foryou just here, right off the bat
(00:20):
bat.
Do you like Dungeons andDragons?
How about storytelling and roleplaying and figuring out
yourself and how to gain empathyfor other people?
Do you love the story andpoetry of science?
Well, if any of those thingsare true and if you just like
really cool people, you're goingto love today's episode.
My guest for today is Dr CherylHosler, the creator of Nature
(00:41):
Check and the Roving Naturalist.
She is a brilliant sciencecommunicator and really I say
that a lot and I talk about alot of people, but I find Cheryl
to be incredibly inspirationalin this whole thing where we try
to tell the story of the worldaround us.
She is a postdoc at Penn StateUniversity, a recent PhD, so
(01:02):
everyone say congrats to DrHostler.
And just such a good person,just such a good person.
She's one of a few people thatactually got me into playing
tabletop games like Dungeons andDragons.
There's another one that we'lltalk about in the show called
the Wild Sea, and I still feellike I'm not very good at it,
but she's so kind about the waythat she puts information out
(01:22):
there and the way that she tellsthe story of communicating with
people and the way that sherelates to people and talks
about science.
I think you're going to lovetoday's episode.
We cover a lot of ground today.
We talk about everything fromthe experiences that shape us
into the educators we want to beand the scientists we want to
be and just maybe, the people wewant to be.
We talk about community.
We talk about finding a reallygood group of belonging.
(01:45):
We talk about community.
We talk about finding a reallygood group of belonging.
We talk about the importance ofnuance and context in science,
communication and nature andfinding our roots and getting
back to asking good questionsand remembering what it's like
to not know anything and tobuild our experiences and the
way we communicate on that.
So great episode, and I thinkthat you're going to love Cheryl
(02:05):
just as much as I do so, grabyour favorite set of dice and
get ready for episode 118 of thePlanthropology podcast, the
poetry of science nature checkand groups of belonging, with Dr
Cheryl Hosler.
What's your cat's name?
(02:42):
This is Puzzle.
Puzzle's a good name.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you, we get that a lot.
The kittens are Cipher andWhisper, so we have like a teen
cartoon team going on.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
It's fantastic, cheryl.
I am so excited to get to talkto you today.
I think we talked about this along time ago and I'm glad that
it is finally getting so.
Thanks for agreeing to be on.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Thanks for being a part of this and tell us about
you.
Oh gosh, yes, thanks for havingme About me.
Well, I was born in, yeah, Iguess like I grew up in a family
that was always really intolike spending quality time
outside, and so I just sort ofdeveloped this love for nature
and have pursued a few differentcareer paths, but all related
to the natural world.
So I guess that's me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Very cool.
So you're currently a I believeat, so can you take us through
sort of the process to get therefrom school to figuring out
what you want to do?
Because I think that'ssomething that I like to get
into is, like, why do you loveplants?
Like, why are you into thething that you do?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, which school do you want me to start at for the
timeline?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Oh, wherever you'd like Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So, like I said, I was really into nature and stuff
growing up and so as I wasmoving into high school I
thought maybe I wanted to becomea biologist.
And I had a few roughexperiences in high school which
unfortunately is apparently apretty common experience and by
the end of those years in highschool, pretty much I just felt
(04:10):
like I was not good enough orsmart enough to be a scientist.
So, when I started myundergraduate at Penn State, I
came in as an English major,which I love reading and writing
and doing critique ofliterature, so that was really
fun.
And then realized that therewas a major that I could get
that would allow me to walk inthe footsteps of some of the
(04:31):
mentors that I'd really valuedat a summer camp that Penn State
runs that I went to as a kid,and so I decided to double major
and do this recreation parksand tourism management major.
So I learned informal education, pedagogy and team building
stuff and how to teach peoplehow to rock climb and canoe and
whatever, and so I spent a fewyears after undergrad doing all
(04:54):
of that kind of stuff and it wasreally fun.
I've worked with every agegroup, people with special needs
.
I've worked 200 plus personlive animal presentations.
I've done summer camps.
So it was all really fun.
But there were a few reasons whyit didn't feel like a
sustainable career for me and I,with a few more years of
frontal lobe development,thought maybe I should try
(05:16):
giving science another try.
So, yeah, I found a universitythat I thought would be a good
fit for this attempt.
So I was in the Chicago regionat the time and there's a bunch
of universities there in thecity, but they're all like
really big universities.
So there's a smaller universitycalled Northern Illinois
University that's in NorthernIllinois and it's an R2, so a
(05:40):
little bit smaller, but still aresearch school, and they have
master's degrees and they alsowere still teaching a lot of the
ologies classes, so likeentomology, ornithology,
mammology, whatever.
And so for all of those reasons,I thought that would be a good
fit and I basically just emailedthe graduate coordinator and
was like, what would I need todo to like be allowed to apply
(06:03):
to grad school?
And he was like, oh well, youneed two semesters of
undergraduate biology andchemistry at the very least,
because I didn't have any ofthose.
Right, you didn't actually haveto take any science classes
beyond your gen eds in order toget a degree in teaching people
about nature, which is weird,okay, but yeah, so I went to the
(06:23):
community college and tookintro bio and chemistry and then
I did the cold email thingwhere I found somebody within
that department who would takeme on as a student and while I
was doing all of that, I alsotook entomology as a student at
large.
So it was like you're not likean undergraduate, but you aren't
formally in the graduateprogram.
(06:44):
And so eventually I did make itin and I did my master's for
three years there in restoredtall grass prairie, which was
incredible.
I'd grown up in the hardwood ormixed forests of the Northeast,
which are beautiful, and Ihadn't really understood what
was so great about the Midwest,because so much of it is corn
and soybeans, but the prairie isjust incredible.
(07:06):
It really is.
And so, yeah, I think like thatwas a wonderful experience.
And then I did another round ofcold emailing to find an
advisor for my PhD at adifferent university that I was
in one of the universities indowntown Chicago, the University
of Illinois Chicago, and I dida five year Ph-year PhD where I
was studying pollination, soreally very much focused on
(07:29):
plants.
For that project I raised twodifferent species of plants that
are non-self-pollinating andused their seed count as a way
of quantifying the pollinationservices they receive, because
they can only make seeds ifinsects move their pollen for
them.
So that was amazing.
And then, when I was gettingclose to the end of my PhD, I
started applying for jobsfaculty jobs and postdocs and I
(07:51):
wound up finding this reallycool opportunity back at the
university where I started, atPenn State, being supervised by
two PIs on synthesizing the datafor a long term project.
So they've been running thisproject basically since I
graduated from Penn State alittle over 12 years ago.
So I've joked with them thatthey started this project so
(08:12):
that I could come back and workon the data for them.
But this project is looking atthe responses of a whole bunch
of different species of covercrops to the environmental
variation across years, and thenwe'll also be getting into how
those different species providea bunch of ecosystem services to
the farm fields where they'rebeing planted.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So yeah, oh, wow, no, that's fascinating, yeah, yeah.
And again, it's no surprise I'ma nerd, like I nerd out about
this stuff, but like peopledon't realize how big of a deal
crops are, like it's soimportant from an ecological
standpoint and a soilconservation standpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I'd never heard of them.
But now it's just like this isthe coolest thing.
Nobody in the Midwest, reallyor not nobody, but very few
people in the Midwest do covercropping because they have so
much land and they just pump itfull of nutrients and whatever.
But yeah, we're working withorganic growers here in the
Northeast and yeah, covercropping, I guess, is really
popular and I've gone to a fewextension runs.
(09:10):
These like farmer learningcircles where the farmers can
come and like learn from oneanother, and it is just
incredible to me how much theseguys like experiment on their
own farms to try to figure outwhat will work best for them.
It's really cool.
So our project was sort ofdesigned based on what those
farmers have been trying.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
See, that's so cool, and when we talk about research,
I think it's actuallyespecially right now, and for
those listening right now couldmean a lot of things.
But I think, as we record this,the I don't know applicability
of science is something that'sreally important to talk about,
and how you and I, asresearchers, as scientists,
(09:50):
understand that like science forthe sake of science is never
that like we're doing it to this.
Okay, sometimes it is, but like, but like it can build
fundamental baselines for a lotof things.
Right, like we're, we're, we'refinding a starting point.
Right, we're finding newquestions, those things.
But you're thinking aboutapplied science.
It's like oh no, these farmers,these growers, these
(10:11):
stakeholders, whoever are doingand they're trying things, why
don't we help them figure outwhy it works or how to make it
work better, and all of that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's really, I think, especially in agriculture and
in the plant world, like areally important thing that we
need to lean into a bit.
It's kind of the same principleas traditional ecological
knowledge TEK right that, likethe people on the ground doing
the thing know how to do thething.
And what we, the researchscientists, are good at and
therefore is to quantify andlike really zoom in on those
(10:56):
patterns and come up with theexact causal relationship,
sometimes because, like,anecdotal evidence for why
something works may not be theactual reason.
So, yeah, I really like beingan applied scientist and like
working hand in hand with thepractitioners at all of these
different locations.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
For sure, that's super cool.
And to take a step back, Iactually wanted to say
congratulations because you werefairly recently a doctor
hustler and that's just so cool.
That's so cool.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, it was a weird feeling, but it's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I think weird is such a good way to, just because,
like I remember, for me when Igraduated, I was like everyone
was like Do you feel so good?
I was like I think so.
I don't like my brain hasn'treset yet.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, on the day I defended, after I came out of
the closed door portion, oh,you've passed, or whatever
everybody was like, oh, are youso relieved?
And I was like, well, no,because like good advisors,
don't send you to your defenseunless they know you're going to
pass.
So like I knew I was going topass two weeks ago when I sent
my dissertation to my committee.
But like now I actually get tocall myself doctor and like
(12:03):
that's a big deal for a wholebunch of reasons.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Stemming all the way back to.
Nobody in my family has gottena PhD in anything in like 100
years, and the last one was inbanking and the fact that I
started out thinking I wasn'tgood enough for this, like I
obviously am good enough andsmart enough, but it took me a
really long time and a lot ofwork to demonstrate that to
myself.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Listen, you're kind of speaking my language.
I get it, but from the outside,looking in, I can tell you that
I've always thought the worldof what you do and I, like, I've
always thought of you as just areally great scientist and
communicator and it's just soexciting that you're in a place,
maybe, where you're feelingthat now too, and that's pretty
cool.
I haven't, as a total aside hasnothing to do with plants.
(12:49):
Obviously there have to be PhDsin, but I've literally never
thought of that being.
It has never popped into myhead before.
When my grandmother told me up,I was like oh huh, okay, I mean
cause clearly they would have tobe like there's phds and
everything.
It's just I don't know.
Sorry, but that it's like whenyour brain's like humming along
(13:11):
and then something just kind ofsticks it like a gear, like like
a stick in the spokes.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I'm just like until you've handled it yeah, I have
to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Well, I want to talk, as we go through this, a little
bit more about specificallysome of the work you're doing
and to the extent that you cantell.
But for those that aren't likefamiliar, can you give us like
the elevator pitch for what acover crop is, because I think
that's poorly understood.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, so the way I've been explaining it to people
and again, like just under ayear ago I was learning this but
yeah, the way I've beenexplaining it to people is that
cover crops are domesticatedcrop species that are planted on
fields when the cash crop isn'tgrowing.
So, like, the cash crop in therotation that we're looking at
(13:56):
is organic corn, organicsoybeans and organic winter
wheat, and then the cover cropsare grown between the winter
wheat and the corn.
And what absolutely blew mymind is that you plant these
seeds in like late August, earlySeptember, and then they grow
in the autumn and then they growagain in the spring and then we
(14:19):
terminate them.
So sometimes people harvestcover crops Ours are just
getting plowed into the soil inMay and then you plant the corn
in that same soil.
And yeah, it was kind of weirdfor me to think about planting
annual seeds in the fall andasking them to grow, like in the
coal.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, it's like good luck, have fun.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Exactly, but like it's so interesting because,
like I said, my first job issynthesizing all these data and
understanding how the differentspecies respond to the
environment and it's sointeresting to see the trends
for like which ones of them liketo have their feet wet Right,
so they respond positively toprecipitation, and which ones
like the cold or don't like thecold.
It's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
We mostly grow well, at least where I am.
We mostly grow cotton grow well, at least where I am.
We mostly grow cotton.
There's a little bit of sorghum, milo, depending on you know,
whatever which part of thecountry you're in A few other
things, but it's mostly cotton.
And so there's some peoplestarting to do winter wheat and
a few other things in rotation.
Some are doing like alfalfa,but you know I'm out here in.
(15:20):
This is also a prairie, it's ashort grass prairie, so it's a
little different.
But we're also right next tothe desert, like if you go next
door to the West, it is theChihuahuan Desert, like it's the
real kind of like capital Ddesert, and so we get these big
dust storms that come throughhere and it's like every second
(15:42):
Tuesday is like the dust bowlagain, and I think people are
getting to a point where like,oh, you mean bare plow fields
are not great for that, likemaybe that's going to blow away.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
How did we not learn that lesson 100 years ago, Right
?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
right, exactly, and it's just in the past oh, maybe
15 years, 10, 15 years thatpeople are really working in the
cover crops or doing reducedtillage or leaving stubble in
the fields and things like thatover the winter, just to like,
hey, let's keep the soil whereit's supposed to be, because
they don't need it in Oklahoma,like it's our soil, let's leave
(16:18):
it here.
But it's becoming more popularand we think about, like
different agricultural systemsand I don't know if it's, I
guess it does fit in theregenerative ag in some ways, in
a little bit, as we try to like, think about how we go into the
future and be more ecologicallyminded.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I think it's such a big deal yeah, I mean especially
a lot of the work here wasmotivated by the fact that we're
in the chesapeake bay watershed, so like that is a fragile
watershed anyway.
And then you take into accountthe fact that we're in the
Chesapeake Bay watershed, solike that is a fragile watershed
anyway.
And then you take into accountthe fact that in this part of
the East Coast a ton of farmersare doing dairy or poultry, and
so they have a lot of manurethat they want to get rid of.
(16:56):
And so how do we like allowthem to spread that manure on
their fields to provide nitrogenand other nutrients to their
cash crops, but not watch all ofthose nutrients just like run
off every time it rains, or likewhen the snow melts and just
wind up in the Chesapeake Baycausing problems?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So, yeah, one of the like main ecosystem services
that this project has beenfocused on is nitrogen leaching
and like studying how thenitrogen is moving or staying in
the fields yeah, oh, I mean,and I again I could, I'm trying
to rein myself in a little bitbecause like there's so much
(17:35):
that my brain's like oh yeah, Ijust talked to my students about
fertilizer runoff and showedthem pictures of dead fish.
They did not love.
I, I don't.
But like, those are theconversations I think we have to
like have like it's bad for thefish.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
A lot of humans like we we have like a strong bias
towards like mammals and themore distantly and animals
related to us like the lessempathetic people feel.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So I'm glad that they were sad about the dead fish oh
, there were certainly a few ohwhat and like, and I don't know
if it was more of just like thegross algae sludge that they
were reacting to or the fit, buteither way, I got an awe out of
them, so that's something likeso.
So I'm curious.
I was looking over you for onething you've published a lot
(18:19):
more than I am.
You're a better that.
But do you see yourself in thefuture like staying in research?
Would you like to teach what'skind of your idea?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, Well, so first too, you were going to say you
looked over my like GoogleScholar or something Like there
are a lot of papers on there,but a lot of like I only have
two first author paperspublished so far.
I have a few more in peerreview right now.
I have a few more in peerreview right now, but most of
those papers are because I'vebeen fortunate enough to work in
like really big collaborativeresearch groups.
(18:50):
No-transcript.
I think like doingcollaborative science is
something that really makes mevery happy, because none of us
(19:11):
are, none of us can do thisalone the days of publishing
single author papers are, andprobably should be over oh yeah,
I gotta remember the last.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You see them every now and then, and it's usually
by someone that's beenresearching in the field for 112
years and like.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, but yeah.
So I'm just, I'm so grateful toeveryone that I've been able to
work with because they've beenreally rewarding experiences.
But yeah, where do I see myself?
I mean, I would very much liketo be a PI at a research
university because research isso much fun.
A prominent public figurerecently said that scientists
are afraid to ask questions, andI was flabbergasted because the
(19:54):
one thing we really like to dois ask questions.
So, yeah, I would love a careerwhere I get to like pursue the
questions and mentor studentsindividually with research,
because I've had so many reallygood and valuable mentors.
I want to sort of pass thatforward to the next generation
of students.
But I also really love teaching.
My first career inenvironmental ed, I loved
(20:17):
engaging with students and eventhough classroom teaching with
grades and stuff is a littledifferent than like teaching
during summer camp, I stillreally do love teaching,
especially those sort of likeintroductory classes, because
that's where you get peopleexcited and engaged who might
not otherwise have thought thatthey would be.
So, yeah, I would love to be aprofessor at a research
(20:37):
university so that I can do theteaching and the mentoring and
the research.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Very cool, yeah.
And again, like I love that youtalk about it that way, because
I hear sometimes I don't wantto say like colleagues I teach
with we actually have a verylike strong teaching faculty at
my institution and like theyreally love the students.
But I hear it thrown aroundsometimes that like, oh, I hate
teaching freshmen and undergradsand those intro classes, blah,
(21:03):
blah, blah.
And again the 112 tenure, likewhatever.
But it is so important, likewhat's our job?
Right, we are trying to buildscientific consensus, but to do
that as part of that, we have tobuild and train the next
generation of scientists andenthusiasts.
And what better way to do thatthan to be really fun in an
(21:24):
intro class?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, what better way to do that than to be really
fun in an intro class.
Yeah well, and also I learnedthat this was something feinman
did that like he really likedand would try, I guess, every
semester to teach, like physics101 or whatever, because it
allowed him to remember what itwas like to be at the beginning
and not know anything, which Ithink think is so important,
like again, as a sciencecommunicator, especially like so
(21:47):
many people sort of forget whatit's like to be the student at
the beginning, not knowinganything, whether they're
talking about undergraduates orgraduate students.
Even I've mentored severalgraduate students here since
I've been a postdoc that arelike, oh, like, how did you
learn this?
And like it's OK, like, likeyou don't have to know all of it
right now, like that's whyyou're here, right?
So, yeah, I think like beingreminded what it's like to not
(22:08):
know any of it is important.
But also students who don'tknow all of it already have
different perspectives and mightcome up with cool ideas that we
hadn't considered because we'vebounded ourselves so much by
like the conventional knowledgeand literature.
Like if you don't know anything, you can just ask any question
and you might hit upon somethingcool that nobody else thought
(22:28):
of.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Oh, that's so good.
Yeah, that is such a good, Ithink, perspective, because I
like the way you frame that inthe reminding ourselves about
where we started.
Right, returning somebody,because I think about coming in
to do my master's.
So I actually have a bachelorof arts in horticulture and,
like I studied landscape designand I at the time didn't know
(22:53):
you weren't supposed to go froma bachelor of arts to a master
of science and so I was justlike I'll apply for it.
I don't know, I didn't know anybetter, and they were like well
, we don't really do that, butokay, and so I ended up making
the program and it was that it'sthe whole process.
I tell people that we teach ourundergrads about science, we're
(23:13):
trying to give them a body ofknowledge, and then we teach our
master students.
We're walking them throughreally, or undergraduate
researchers, but really the nutsand bolts of gaining knowledge.
Then at the PhD level, we'rekind of teaching them how to do
(23:34):
it for themselves, how to runtheir own programs, and I think
that sort of stepwise process,the farther you get away from it
, it is hard to sometimes lookback and be like, oh no, I've
been that kid, like I know thestudent that's 18 years old and
it's the first time out of thehouse and they're excited about
something that's really cool.
So, okay, you mentioned aminute ago that part of what you
(23:55):
do is science, and outside ofthe research and outside of the
university life, you do sciencecommunication.
What made you want to get intothat?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I guess I was a science communicator before I
knew that was the name of thejob, because being an
environmental educator is just asubgenre of science
communicator, right, like I was.
Just I was doing it in personthrough programming and so, yeah
, when I was taking thatentomology class, when I was a
(24:24):
student at large.
That prof was great.
She was super helpful insupporting me and making me feel
like I belonged.
And she not that far into thatsemester was like, have you ever
thought about sciencecommunication?
Like she knew a tiny bit aboutwhat I had done in my previous
career and I think a lot of itwas just like the way I spoke
during like class presentationsand things like I don't know.
(24:45):
I just sort of developed thisskill set as a theater kid, as
an environmental educator, Imean all of us are just
know-it-alls and I've justreally practiced being a
know-it-all in a way that peopleappreciate listening to.
I mean, there's no such thingas, like, a perfect communicator
.
But yeah, I've had a lot ofpractice with those skills of
(25:07):
thinking about how to presentinformation in ways that will be
accessible to differentaudiences and I think that's
like the really important part.
I was I was hired to be thebroader impacts for someone's
grant.
I've been making videos abouttheir research project, which is
great.
But when I asked them before Istarted filming like so what's
your intended audience?
(25:27):
They were like everyone, and Ithink that is so often.
Like what?
Like scientists or other peoplewho are like trying to
communicate information are likeI want everyone to know and
like that's just not going towork because not everyone
receives information the sameway.
And so the fact that I havepracticed working with kids with
(25:48):
sight impairments, kids on theautism spectrum, kids of all
ages, adults of all ages,families, like all of these
different groups I've played theaccordion, I guess, with the
information and figured out howto transpose it for the needs of
each group.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And that is a real skill.
Like that's that is notsomething everyone can do and I
think that people watch sciencecommunicators online and we do
all this stuff and you make itlook easy, but like that's
really something that one,there's like a natural aptitude
that a lot of people have for it, but two, like that's a craft
(26:26):
you have to.
It's really something you haveto figure out.
There's so much I don't knowback end work and almost science
that goes into how we sciencecommunicate.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, I definitely was not asconfident or as good at it now
back then as I am now.
But yeah, I think the sciencethat goes into science
communication is also a reallyimportant point.
There is a lot of cool researchon science communication,
theagogy, the effect.
I even know of a researcher who, like, specifically looks at
(26:56):
science communication withaudiences of like faith
backgrounds.
But a lot of sciencecommunicators don't know that
exists, or they and, or theydon't read it, and it's a really
weird like circle for me.
I guess that, like the sciencecommunicators are constantly
like I want to teach theimportant stuff to the people,
but like the sciencecommunicators are constantly
like I want to teach theimportant stuff to the people,
but like the sciencecommunication researchers are
(27:18):
like I want the sciencecommunicators to know the
important stuff about how to dowhat they do, and like nobody's
talking to us yeah, huh and yeah, it seems like we are missing a
piece in the middle theresomewhere the like who
communicates to the like, who'sthe extension service between
the scientists and the sciencecommunicators, instead of, like,
(27:38):
the scientists and the generalpublic, like there's like that.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I hadn't really thought of that.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That's really an interesting point so are you
aware of the deficit model orlike what that means?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
in a very loose sort of way.
The deficit.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
model is this like way of teaching us, and science
communicators often sort of fallinto this.
Because model is this like wayof teaching us, and science
communicators often sort of fallinto this because it feels
intuitive to us.
Right, the if they only knewRight.
If my audience only knew thatbuying this product from this
company was causing waterpollution in some other part of
the world, then they wouldn't dothe thing Right Like.
If only they knew they wouldchange their behavior.
(28:11):
But research in the socialsciences has demonstrated over
and over again that changingknowledge does not change
attitudes and even changingknowledge and attitudes does not
necessarily change behaviorsand like that's all really
interesting.
And I went down kind of a rabbithole on this and realized that
about every 10 years in thesocial science literature there
(28:32):
is a paper that's like, hey, thedeficit model doesn't work.
So approximately every 10 yearsthe science communication
researchers are also going.
If only the sciencecommunicators knew, because it's
just a paper in theirliterature, right Like it's
published in the sciencecommunication, research or
(28:52):
social science journal.
It's not being disseminated tothe science communicators and so
a lot of people still fall intousing the deficit model in the
way they create sciencecommunication content, because
it feels intuitive to us,because in large part, we are
people who change our attitudesand behaviors when we are
presented with new information.
But that is not the way normalpeople work, quite frankly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You're right, though, and that's so.
I did a lot of work, and I havedone, throughout my career, a
lot of work in waterconservation.
That's been a major area ofresearch focus just throughout
time, and a lot of my PhD workwas also actually in, like what
are the practices of different,how do homeowners manage their
water use in the urban landscape, et cetera, and we asked all
(29:37):
these questions.
We did a big survey, and it'sinteresting because a lot of
people say, oh yeah, no, I knowI'm supposed to, or I know I'm
supposed to, but that's all.
Yeah, no, you're right, thatdoesn't bridge the gap all the
time, because the even theintent to change practice
sometimes is not there, despitethe knowledge and it's.
I think we do fall into thattrap of thinking oh well, they
(30:00):
know better, they should dobetter, and but that's just not
how the humans work.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Like, don't, we don't do that well and I like first
realized this back when I waslike still getting my degree in
environmental education, therewas this program.
So the Penn State sort ofenvironmental education center
offers this like week-long camptype thing to all of the
surrounding school districtfifth graders and they just like
(30:25):
go to this camp for a week andthey get their entire
environmental educationcurriculum for the entire year
in that like one week, which isreally cool because a lot of the
I mean this is really coolbecause a lot of I mean this is
central pennsylvania, so a lotof these school districts aren't
like super affluent and sobeing able to like get that cool
, like outdoors, hands-onexperience is really important
for those kids.
But the way all of theseprograms that I've ever worked
(30:48):
in sort of defend theirexistence because by having to
do some sort of survey at theend and like prove with numbers
that they've done somethingright, so like, oh, okay, well,
I'll survey the participantsbefore and after they do this
program and my survey will showthat more of them know the right
(31:09):
answers to these questions andthat I think I phrased that way
intentionally, because it's notjust true or false doing this
leads to water pollution.
The right answers also includethe attitude questions right,
like if you're taking a surveyfor the program that you just
did that was talking about waterconservation, then of course
(31:31):
you're going to answer the waterconservation attitude and like,
oh, yeah, I promise that mybehaviors will change in the
future.
Questions the way you think theinstructors want you to answer,
but the answers on the surveydon't reflect what people
actually go home and do, andlike, yeah, I became aware of
this really early on.
That like, oh, there's thishuge disconnect between, like,
(31:51):
the numbers that we have to useto justify our programs
continuing to be funded andtheir ultimate efficacy.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Goodness, there's a lot more here that we probably
like don't have the time to getinto.
Maybe on part two, like maybewe'll do this again, but there
is a lot to be said about thatand the way that we approach
(32:38):
no-transcript.
But I think that, as scientists, as people interested in the
green in nature, right in thegreen sciences, that's really
something.
Right in the green sciences,that's really something.
And I think that, from theresearchers to just the people
that like going on the park,like I think the, like you said,
broader impacts the now, whatbig picture question is a
(33:02):
question that we have to askourselves a lot and sometimes be
okay with being uncomfortablewith the answers.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I don't know if that's the right way to say that
, but there's, yeah, there's alot there, yeah I also think,
like those of us in the greensciences I like the way you put
that like most of the sciencecommunicators I know are
ecologists of one stripe oranother, and I think there are a
lot of reasons for that, butone of them is that, like, what
we do could actually impactsomeone's attitudes, behaviors
(33:32):
or quality of life couldactually impact someone's
attitudes, behaviors or qualityof life.
Like if a physicist says, hey,I discovered a new star or a new
subatomic particle or whateverpeople are like cool and they
keep going on with their day.
But like if we discoversomething about, like how to do
better farming, like that'simmediately impactful to like a
lot of people along, like a hugesupply chain.
So, yeah, I think like we havea very strong responsibility to
(33:55):
be good at presenting what we'velearned to other people.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Awesome, and that's a good segue and a good time for
a quick break, and when we comeback, I want to talk about the
Roving Naturalists and I want totalk about Nature Check,
because these are both such coolprojects that I think people
need to know about.
So let's take a quick break andthen we'll come back.
Well, hey there, welcome to themid roll.
I hope your house plants aredoing well.
I have to confess I have someplants in my office and they're
(34:23):
just so badly neglected.
I have a little tomato in herethat a friend gave me and I need
to put it outside becausethat's where the tomatoes do
better instead of under thethrow lights, and I have brought
it back from the brink like twoor three times and it builds
character right In yourhouseplants.
Anyway, I hope yours are doingbetter than mine.
Thanks so much for listening toPlantthropology and thanks for
being a part of what we do here.
(34:43):
A huge thanks to Cheryl forbeing on this episode, thanks to
the Texas Tech Department ofPlant and Soil Science for
supporting the show and theDavis College of Agricultural
Science and Natural Resourcesfor doing the same.
If you want to support plantanthropology, there are a lot of
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(35:05):
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(35:27):
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(35:47):
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(36:08):
I drink a lot of coffee.
Anyway, let's get back to itMore with Cheryl in 5, 4, 3, 2,
1.
We're back.
So you have a couple ofspecific projects talking about
science, communication, thedissemination of knowledge to
people, the Roving Naturalistand Nature Check, and you've
(36:31):
been doing both of these forquite a while, like it's been a
long time thing for you, so sotell us a little bit about those
.
Let's start with the rovingnaturalist.
Where did that come?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
from.
So when I decided I was goingto grad school, I wasn't sure
what what my job would look likelike.
I knew it was going to beprimarily me taking classes and
me doing research, and I wasn'tsure how much teaching I would
still be able to do.
Lots of grad students do doteaching through, like TA ships
or whatever, and I certainly didhave opportunities like that
(37:01):
during grad school.
But before I started mymaster's I wasn't sure.
So I promised myself I was notgoing to give up informal
education, because I really dolove it and I really do think
that like learning while you'rehaving fun, or I call it like
guerrilla teaching, right,they're like, oh, we're playing
a tag game, but like you all areostensibly like aquatic macro
(37:21):
invertebrates at the same time,so you're going to learn
something about stream ecologywhile we play tag, right, like
that's a much better, more fun,more effective way to learn than
like sitting in a classroombeing lectured at and again, the
social science like bears thatout.
People almost everybody learnsbetter through active learning,
(37:41):
whether it's like hands-on stuffor just like being engaged
through discussions oractivities.
So I really wanted to sort ofkeep doing informal ed, even as
I like sort of pivoted into thisresearch career.
So, as makes perfect sense, atthe same time that I started my
master's degree, I also starteda YouTube gym, and the Roving
(38:02):
Naturalist was my attempt toanswer all the questions you
never knew you had about howhumans and the environment
interact, and it was really agreat outlet for me to like
explore literature and conceptsthat weren't what I was doing
during my like job Right, solike I was looking at dung
(38:22):
beetles in this tall grassprairie for three years during
my master's, which was amazing,but like that was just one topic
.
But on the Roving Naturalist, Italked about all kinds of
ecological concepts.
I talked about making yourbackyard a habitat.
I read the social scienceliterature about things like the
deficit model and groups ofbelonging and the pedagogy
(38:44):
behind science communication.
So, yeah, it was really anopportunity for me to like do
these deep dives and thencontinue practicing in a new
medium, sharing those thingswith other people.
And the roving naturalist islike primarily talking head
videos and does sort of fallinto the deficit model a bit
because it is me talking at theaudience, but I was really
(39:05):
excited by the idea of usingYouTube because people think I'm
crazy when I say this, becausethere's a comment section which
is wild, because everybody hassaid since the inception of the
internet don't read the commentsection, right, right, teaching
is an interaction for me.
Right, teaching is a two wayprocess, and so I was really
(39:28):
excited that.
Oh yeah, like, youtube videosis a way that I could be doing
science communication and myaudience can give me feedback,
they can ask me questions, theycan contribute their own
thoughts on the topic.
Right, because that's alwaysthe way I've taught.
When I was doing live animalpresentations to like groups of
elementary school kids, I didn'tstart by telling them about the
(39:48):
animal, I brought it out and Iasked them what they noticed
about it or what they knew aboutit, because everyone is smarter
than we give them credit for.
So, like, I really believe thatteaching and learning is a two
way interaction because we canalways learn something from one
another.
So, yeah, I was really excitedabout the comments section
because that would give me a wayto organically interact with
(40:10):
the audience beyond the contentof the video that I was
presenting, which the videoitself is a one-way teaching
interaction right.
Yeah, and so I like deep doveinto like social media and
created a Twitter account and anInstagram and made all these
videos and went to VidConseveral years in a row and like
all of this crazy stuff and likeI don't know.
Chasing numbers in onlinecontent creation is rough, but I
(40:36):
was having so much fun thatdidn't.
I mean, of course it mattered,but it didn't like hurt.
Right, I am never going to likebreak even on that project, but
it's just been so much fun.
And I did an interview serieson the channel called Explain
Yourself where I would interviewearly career scientists,
(40:59):
usually at like academicconferences, and for many of
them I was their first time everbeing interviewed.
But it was just so much fun tolearn about these people and
their journeys through scienceand the research they're doing
and to give them an opportunityto practice talking about it to
a non-professional scientistaudience.
So, yeah, I just the RivingNaturalist has been a blast.
I speak about it kind of in thepast tense because while it is
still live online, I haven'tmade content for it in a few
(41:22):
years.
Because running two sciencecommunication projects and
finishing a PhD during COVID andlike trying to become like a
full-fledged researcher is likea lot.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Kind of a lot, yeah, yeah, it's kind of a lot.
Yeah, wow, yeah.
And you make a reallyinteresting point with some of
these things that there are somany fascinating people out
there with just incredible workthat nobody is from and like
maybe they've published athousand papers but like that's
(41:57):
still something that is it'spaywalled, it's whatever,
something that is it's paywalled, it's whatever.
And so I don't know, I guess,platforming people who have such
a cool story to tell, andusually, I think oftentimes,
something I've found is thatthey're so much better at it
than they think they're going tobe.
Oh, I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm like, well, okay, but youdid great, like it's.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That's such just a cool feeling on this side of it,
on the creation side of it well, and I love to use the word
platforming because, likerunning a podcast or running a
youtube channel, like there wasa financial investment and
there's this like infrastructureor logistics.
Right, like I run the channel,I bought the equipment, I
learned how to use the equipment, all that stuff, and like that
is such a huge barrier to entryto be able to communicate your
(42:43):
science broadly that I was likewell, I already did all that
work.
Now I will make this platformavailable to other people so
they can come on and use myplatform to disseminate what
they know, but without that hugebarrier to entry of having to
buy all the stuff and learn howto run a youtube channel yeah,
which is a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Like that's not easy.
I like, I'll be honest, I'mstill a little scared of YouTube
.
Like if I had my stuff togethera little bit more, I would do
more YouTube.
I've just gotten so into theshort form.
Well, the podcast is not short,but like on the video side, the
short form stuff that I'm likewhat do you mean?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I have to write a script like what do you mean?
That's like I can't just myphone up and talk.
That's funny because, like youdo a great job with that short
form stuff, but like short form,when it like first blew up and
became a thing, I was like do Iwant to pivot to that?
because making long form andshort form content are so
different so different so when Iwas an English major, I had a
prof say that, like, when you'rewriting a novel, you have to
(43:48):
like, focus on every paragraph,right, and when you're writing a
short story, you focus on everysentence, and when you're
writing a poem you focus onevery word, and so, like if a
short form video is to me verymuch like a poem or maybe a
short story, where, like, youhave to have everything like
really dialed in order to likeget the right message across in
(44:10):
the right way, whereas, like ina four to eight minute video,
you have more time to explainwhat you're trying to say.
So, yeah, the short form stuffkind of scares me.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
So yeah, the short form stuff kind of scares me.
Can I just tell you, that wholedescription explanation you
just gave for me is such apowerful encapsulation of why
scientists need to study thehumanities, because and I say
that in all seriousness a deadserious like because we have to
think about the way we approachthings right, and the parallel
(44:43):
between a short form video and apoem is so good, so good, yeah,
anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, all scientists should have to take more
humanities classes than they do,and they should have to take
them more seriously than they do.
I've seen them in the gen edcourses, yeah, like I mean I was
an English major and it's likekind of a meme in society and
even in my personal story.
But like that trained me sowell to be good at so many other
(45:12):
things Right, like learning howto critically read literature
made me really good at readingpapers, and like critically
listening to presentations andhaving to write so many papers
made me really good at writing.
My master's advisor said partof the reason he was so quick to
accept me into his lab isbecause he realized he wouldn't
have to teach me how to writeyeah, I was very flattered to
(45:34):
hear.
But like, yeah, the humanitiesteach those kind of skills
critical reading, criticalwriting and also teach empathy.
And science is not objective,no matter what anybody says,
everything about what we do issubjectively tied to our
identities and our perspectiveson the world.
(45:55):
How I pursue answering them areentirely dependent on my
identity and so, like if morescientists took humanities
courses and had that moredeveloped like front of the
brain empathy, then I think alot of what we're doing would
look very different.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, goodness, yes, yeah, I'm just.
I was just thinking about allthe great clips I'm going to get
out of this episode, likeyou're so good.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
So that actually that leads well into your other
project, the deficit model andgroups of belonging and all of
the social science literaturethat says just presenting
information to people does notchange their attitudes or
behaviors.
But what does?
Is these groups of belongingfriends Right?
Like you are more likely tothink similarly to the people in
(47:01):
your neighborhood or the peopleyou hang out with and like.
If some of them start changingtheir behaviors, then you will
too, right, and which is why wesee lots of sort of like
factions in our society.
And all of that sort of led meto thinking about other ways of
doing science communication.
And then I saw a great talk bya woman at the Ecology Society
(47:24):
conference years ago where shetalked about doing science
communication at her church.
She was very involved with herchurch and she gave a guest
sermon on the importance ofplants in the Bible.
And it was so popular with thepeople at her church that she
was invited to give this guestsermon at lots of other local
(47:45):
churches in the area andapparently it changed a lot of
the people who listened to itbecause they were like, oh yeah,
we are supposed to be stewardsof this world and take care of
all these plants and like plantsare really important.
And like that story really likestuck with me because I was like
, oh so if you sort of stick toyour group of belonging, that's
(48:11):
a better way of doing thiscommunication right, because
people are more likely to trustyou.
You don't have to like work onbuilding trust because they
already know you and they knowthat you have things in common
and stuff like that.
And so I was like, well, whatkind of like group of belonging
do I have that I could sort oftry working on?
And yeah, I'm a nerd and gamingand doing it live on twitch
(48:34):
seemed like a great way to goabout it.
And yeah, the storytellingaspect of tabletop role-playing
games is just sort of the icingon top, because storytelling is
quintessential to the humanexperience.
Right, like for as long as wehave been humans, we have been
telling stories to one another.
That is how we teach each otherthings, whether it is don't go
over there, that's where thelions are, or this is how the
(48:57):
stars work.
All of those are stories, andso framing teaching as
storytelling just really seemedlike a good fit too.
And so, yeah, wound up sort ofsitting on that idea for a while
and then connecting with somepeople on Twitter back when it
was nice to be on scienceTwitter and developed this
project.
So yeah, nature Check, as makesperfect sense, was we started
(49:20):
streaming two months before Istarted my PhD, because I'm
really good at timing these likeyou do at school experience.
Yeah, we've been playing D&D andnow branching out into other
tabletop role-playing games aswell and just like a bunch of
scientists sitting and tellingstories and talking about
science when it's relevant tothe plot, however tangentially
(49:42):
that might be.
But ultimately, my real goalwith this wasn't even the like
teaching content part, so muchas the like showcasing that
human, that scientists are realhuman beings.
Because, like I hear so often,like oh, scientists are this,
that or the other thing and evenin science communication
workshops I would hear thisphrase constantly repeated
(50:04):
scientists aren't good attelling stories.
We need to teach you how, and Iwas like that is malarkey.
I know tons of professionalscientists who are great
storytellers, who are superfunny, who are very creative,
and so nature check is my way ofshowcasing the humans who
happen to do science for theirjobs and like we're real, we're
(50:24):
three dimensional, we're funny,we're bawdy and like ideally,
that will help people trust whatwe have to say about our jobs
because they will feel moreconnected to us yeah, that's
awesome.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Hey, just to like encapsulate it just as a so
nature check.
Basically, you play dnd oranother game game to again tell
good stories and I have to thankyou for inviting me to be part
of this, because I still havelike the most tenuous grip on
what I'm doing and, like Ibefore, I think before you
messaged me and was like, hey,would you like to be involved.
(50:58):
I think I had played, maybetwice, and I think I picked a
cleric that had no healingspells.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know whatI'm doing.
I have to be the healer.
That's fine.
Well, I certainly was not, butI've had, and it's been over a
couple of years and we'vebecause of skin I know you can't
(51:19):
see me people, but justgesturing around it everything.
We haven't gotten to do it likeevery month, but I have had so
much fun being a part of NatureCheck and the Wild Sea campaign
that we're doing and I apologizeand, to those of you that have
listened to any of this or arefamiliar, I feel like I've
unleashed a lot of cursed thingson our campaign, like a
(51:40):
teeth-based currency and I don'tknow man, yeah, poor felix.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So felix is the person who's running the game
for us and he's the creator ofthe game system.
We're using the wild sea, whichyou should all go out and look
at, because it is incredible theart in the book is gorgeous and
the setting is really whatcaught my eye.
So I I met Felix at Gen Con afew years ago.
They had a Wild Sea booth wherethey were selling the books and
(52:09):
they were running like one hourlong one shot games with like
pre-made character sheets sopeople could sit down and like
get a feel for how the gameplaygoes.
And I played a session withFelix where he was one of the
other players and I was justlike this game is awesome and
this setting is awesome and itwould fit so well with nature
check, but also I just want toplay it anyway.
(52:29):
And then I coerced Felix intobeing our game mest for the ship
.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And he's so patient with us.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
He is so patient.
I was going to say you're allvery patient with me Because
it's funny.
He's like we'll log on andeveryone's got notes and stuff
and I'm like I think I'm acactus.
I don't like.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
I haven't taken any notes for that game.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Well, maybe it's Joanna that really is very
detailed with her notes.
One of the people there is like, but it's been so much fun and
so I'll link to some of the like.
Is it so it streams, and isthat mostly where nature check
goes?
Speaker 2 (53:07):
yeah, so we?
Yeah, twitch is the best placeto find us.
We do have a youtube channel,and you can find us on podcast
platforms too.
I've been calling it the deeptime recordings because I think
we are approximately two yearsbehind.
Oops, because editing videosand podcasts takes a while, and
uploading really big, three hourlong videos takes a while too.
(53:28):
So yeah, we're.
We have a bit of a backlog.
Sorry, I'm working on it.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
But yeah, it's totally fine, I totally get it.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Go to our YouTube channel or our podcast stream
and find, I think, like thefirst 50 or so episodes of our
D&D campaign, our long runningD&D campaign, as well as some of
our one shots, and then in theinterim we've done a lot more
one shots, as well as this minicampaign of the Wild Sea, and,
yeah, we stream approximatelytwo Sundays a month right now
(53:55):
because I'm still postdocing isa weird temporary job and so I
don't want to like make a wholebunch of commitments until I
know where I'm landingpermanently.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, but it's really cool
and I think because I think Iwas this person for a while but
for those of you out therelistening that are like I don't
know about D&D, I don't justgive it a shot, because if you
like, truly like, if you likegood storytelling, if you like
just the I don't knowpsychological, mental exercise
(54:28):
of being able to kind of getoutside of what you do and think
through a fun situation, um,it's so much fun, it's so much
fun and I like, I thoroughlyenjoy it and, again, I good at
it and I come up with horriblethings, like a bar called the
dangling uvula and it was awful,like all the mouth, stuff, real
(54:50):
bad.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
So my apologies, no, but you're not bad at it, you, I
mean, you're creative if wacky,and that's like all you really
need, right, like tabletoprole-playing games are great
because they allow us to tellstories, but because, like we
were talking aboutplaying gamesare great because they allow us
to tell stories, but because,like we were talking about
before with the humanities thing, they allow us to exercise our
empathy, and like emotionalcommunication muscles.
(55:13):
Right like you get to step intobeing somebody else and explore
how that person might respondto situations, instead of how
you would respond to them or howthat person might respond to
situations.
So like I don't know, I knowlots of it.
Practice social interactionswithout consequences in the same
way, which is like really cool.
And yeah, I don't know.
I mean, my favorite D&D book isthe Monster Manual because it's
(55:36):
got ties to ecology.
Right, all of these monstershave a biology and an
environment where they live.
No-transcript.
(56:05):
You can explore a world, andyou can build and explore people
too.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I think I have learned things
about myself through it too,just through the self-reflection
of like, how would I like, howdo I want to react to a
situation?
How do I want to react to asituation?
How do I want to react towhatever weird thing is crazy
thing is happening in thestoryline and I'm like okay, but
should that be how I want toreact?
(56:31):
Should that be?
I don't know.
I think it's very like in alike, it's a fun way to
introspect in some ways, and Ithink that's a thing more people
should do, really like, and Ithink it allows you to like I
don't know, evaluate yourmotivations and things like that
too.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's really, it's fun and it's just fun well, and I
think your character in the wildsea game, karn, is like a
really good example of that,because since you're amber clad,
like you have that sort of likeamnesia adjacent kind of life
experience, right.
So like, oh, like what do youlike, what do you remember or
what would you think about this,or like every once in a while
you get a flashback memory andlike I think those are really
(57:09):
cool opportunities to thinkabout.
Like, oh, if Karn is sort ofgetting to reinvent himself
because he doesn't remember whohe was before, like yeah, yeah,
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Well, I was looking at the time and we're over an
hour and I could keep talkingfor quite a while longer.
I'm still thinking about covercrops, shoot, but you know, I
think, as we start to wind down,for one, I have thoroughly
enjoyed this and I appreciatethe way you approach so much of
this and like, to that end, Iask all my guests if you had
something to leave listeners,what would that be?
(57:42):
What do you think is like thething that, for you, is like
foundational and pivotal andtransformational, or like do you
have a good cookie recipe?
I don't care, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
I do like baking.
No, I actually I had to do somesoul searching about this
recently because I was invitedto give a talk at a symposium
and they just wanted me to talkabout myself and my journey and
I was like, how do I like endthis in a way that doesn't sound
weird, because I'm definitelytaking the scenic route and I
think what I realized and what Iwant other people and my
(58:13):
younger self and whoever to knowis that, like, our experiences
in life and the paths that wetake are very much affected by
the people around us.
So the best thing you couldpossibly do for yourself is to
(58:36):
cultivate a community around youthat is going to be good for
you, right, like findingsupportive friends, family found
family.
Finding supportive friends,family found family, whatever
who help you see the best youthat could be and help you feel
motivated to like walk that path.
I think that's what I want myyounger self and everyone else
to know is like go look for goodpeople to surround yourself
(58:57):
with.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
That's excellent advice, very excellent advice,
cheryl, where all can we findyou?
Speaker 2 (59:04):
I know we've talked about a few of the places, but
gosh yeah, so you can find me onblue sky and instagram and the
other place, but I don't reallycheck it yeah me either the
roving naturalist or rovingnaturalist, depending on
character limits, and on youtube.
at the channel the rovingnaturalist, the logo is a yellow
backpack and some hiking boots.
And then you can also find mewhere I live on Twitch on Nature
(59:26):
Check.
The Twitch channel is NatureCheck D&D, because somebody else
was sitting on the Nature Checkhandle already, and we stream
two Sundays a month at least.
And you can also find NatureCheck on Blue Sky and Instagram
and the Other Place.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
So yeah, the Other Place.
I like that.
That's yeah, whatever, whateverwe're calling it these days
this week, but awesome.
We'll link to all that in thedescription and just thank you
for your time and your I don'tknow wisdom and perspective.
I appreciate it Personally.
If nothing else, I very muchappreciate it.
So thanks for being on.
(01:00:00):
It was fun Y'all.
We've been talking so much aboutcommunity this season.
What's really interesting istalking to Cheryl after the
episode a little bit later.
She didn't realize that thatwas sort of the theme of the
season and so her advice is sotimely and so great Find a
community to belong to, and ifsomeone like Dr Cheryl Hossler
is in your community, you cancount yourself lucky, as I do.
Thanks again for listening toPlant Anthropology.
(01:00:21):
You know I do this for you andI'm proud to do it.
Thanks again to Texas Tech andthe Department of Plant and Soil
Science and the Davis Collegefor supporting the show.
Thanks to Cheryl for being apart of it and for just being my
friend.
I appreciate that PlantAnthropology is written,
directed, hosted, producedwhatever else you can think of
by yours truly, vikram Baliga.
(01:00:41):
Our intro music is by theaward-winning composer, nick
Scout.
Our mid-roll music is by mybuddy, rui, and if you like dad,
jazz and lo-fi, you shoulddefinitely check him out.
I hope you're still being kindto one another.
If you have not to date beendoing that, now is probably a
pretty good time to start.
I hope you stay safe.
I hope you stay well.
No-transcript.
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