Rejection sensitivity holding you back? Join us for an insightful conversation with Dr. Leslie Becker-Phelps, a distinguished psychologist and author, as we unpack the roots of this complex issue and its ties to insecurity. You'll learn how early relationships, particularly with parents and caregivers, shape your self-perception and sense of worth. Dr. Leslie offers her wisdom and shares her transition from positive psychology to tackling deeper struggles with attachment and insecurity.
Building confidence and overcoming rejection is crucial for personal growth. We discuss ways to address anxieties and fears head-on with techniques such as self-affirmations and thorough preparation for challenging situations. You'll hear practical advice on engaging in social settings, showing genuine interest, and learning from feedback to maintain your self-worth. Personal anecdotes emphasize the importance of handling rejection healthily, contributing to a more resilient mindset and a stronger sense of self.
Discover the transformative power of self-awareness and compassion with the STEAM framework—Sensations, Thoughts, Emotions, Actions, and Mentalizing. Dr. Leslie delves into how this method can help you achieve greater self-awareness and manage your internal dialogues effectively. We highlight the significance of compassionate self-awareness and its role in building deeper connections with yourself and others. This episode is a treasure trove of insights and tools designed to foster resilience, self-acceptance, and genuine relationships. Tune in to embark on a journey towards a more fulfilling and emotionally secure life.
Learn More about Dr. Leslie's work here: https://www.drbecker-phelps.com/
Follow Playing Injured on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/playinginjured/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's guest is Dr Leslie Becker Phelps.
She's a renowned psychologist,therapist, speaker and author.
Her work is dedicated tohelping people understand their
inner selves and what they needto do to become emotionally and
psychologically healthy.
Dr Leslie is a medical reviewerfor Everyday Health.
She's on a medical staff at RWJUniversity Hospital, somerset,
(00:24):
and she is a bestselling authorfor three self-help books.
These books include Insecure inLove Bouncing Back from
Rejection, and the Insecure inLove Workbook.
In addition to authoring thesebooks, dr Leslie writes a weekly
relationships blog on WebMD,and she's done that for over the
last decade, and she alsowrites for two other blogs
(00:46):
Authentically you and MakingChange for Psychology.
Today, in this episode, me andDr Leslie have an amazing
conversation about how she gotinto the space of rejection
sensitivity, how we buildinsecurities in our life.
We talk about affirmations andhow to use them.
We talk about why yourenvironment is important tools
(01:10):
to make you feel more secure inyourself and how to know if you
have an unhealthy or healthyrelationship with rejection, and
we talk about a lot more, andso I hope you guys get a lot of
value out of this episode andthanks for listening.
All right, so first thingsfirst.
I want to know a little bitabout what made you get into the
(01:30):
space of rejection sensitivityand why do you feel like it's
important today?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Actually it comes out of my focus on people's
struggles with insecurity.
It's just kind of another facetof it.
So my background there's a lotof things that led me to this,
but the most recent would be anumber of years ago.
I was the clinical director ofa trauma program for women with
(02:00):
histories of physical, sexual,emotional abuse.
They were inpatient, came to aday program.
We worked on stuff.
When I left the program and Ithought, huh, what else do I
want to do?
I want to do something light.
So I got into positivepsychology, but I couldn't help
coming back to but what aboutwhen you people have the tools,
you have these great tools, andyet it still doesn't work for
(02:22):
them?
They're still struggling.
What is it that makes peoplestruggle?
And that was the quest rightwhat makes people struggle and
how we can help people.
Even when they want to get help, it's just not working.
So that led me to a lot ofareas, but a key area is
attachment, insecure attachment,when people feel when they have
(02:44):
a difficult relationship withthemselves and a difficult
relationship with others andthat affects those relationships
.
Part of that is the rejectionsensitivity.
So it's part of that biggertopic.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, 100%.
I think a lot of folks feelthat insecurity piece, right,
and I love how you mentionedthat it's not just about your
sensitivity to rejection, it's adeeper issue of being insecure,
right.
And so what do you think thatcomes from?
Because in my history, right,I've always I felt like
(03:21):
insecurity came from mychildhood, right, I think for me
, my relationship with myparents, especially my father,
which our relationship isamazing today but growing up,
right, it was based off ofperformance, at least from my
perception, right, I felt thathe loved me more when I played
(03:41):
basketball.
Better.
When I didn't play basketballas good, I didn't feel that love
, right.
So my insecurity was based offof if I perform well, I'm worthy
, if I don't perform well, I'mnot worthy.
And I think a lot of times wefeel that today it's the
exterior, the validation that weget from others.
What have you seen in folks,mostly when it comes to how they
(04:06):
develop insecurities in theirlife?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
So you can develop it .
You know all from anyexperience all along the course
of your life the earlier ithappens, the more deeply it
happens, the harder, the more itbecomes a core of part of who
you are.
So you know you're talkingabout.
You know early childhood and ifyou think about it so you're
talking about early childhood,and if you think about it when
you're growing up, think of allthe interactions you have with
your caregivers, your mother,your father, your grandparents,
(04:32):
a nanny, whatever it is.
Every day, how many, ever timesa day.
The experience is layered one ontop of the other.
And so if, from a young age,you're getting the message that
you're never doing anything goodenough, like you know you need
to be doing this and it's greatif you hit this goal, but then
(04:53):
that's not enough, because theykeep focusing on the next one
and the next one, and so youalways feel like you're not
measuring up.
And you think about a kid whogets that message repeatedly
over time, versus a child,several times a day over the
years, gets the message you areamazing, wow, you're, you're,
you're really trying hard,You're reaching this goal.
It aren't.
Your efforts are paying off,isn't it wonderful?
(05:13):
So they're still giving themessage of the goals are
important, but there's you'reseeing that they're focusing on
the efforts and who they are asa human being, and those two
kids will grow up and becomeadults who relate to themselves
very differently.
So it's I really always go backto it's your relationship with
yourself and your relationshipwith other significant others in
(05:36):
your life, how you relate tothem.
That is the foundation for thesecurity or lack of security we
feel, you know, but it's notjust in the childhood, right.
That's just that lays afoundation and then that'll
affect how we see things.
We're going to be more likelyto see support or lack of
support from people, but youstill have experiences that can
help you develop in differingways.
(06:01):
If so, if you feel good aboutyourself, right, but you get
into adulthood and then you getinto a significant relationship
where the person's abusive.
Yeah, if you don't have it inyou to step away.
It wears away, it wears away.
You start to question yourselfand you develop that insecurity
within that relationship.
So this is an ever-moving,ever-changing relationship you
(06:26):
have with yourself and the worldaround you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
No, it definitely makes sense because I think even
in your book Right, we talkedabout Affirmations and you
specifically talked aboutaffirmations and not necessarily
affirmations were developed sothat you can remind yourself who
you are Right and you can getinto relationships, like you
said, where almost you forgetwho you are Right.
(06:53):
They change the perception ofhow you show up in relationship,
right?
So, for instance, maybe yourold partner got mad if you
didn't text them, so now whenyou go into another relationship
, you get anxious aboutconstantly texting somebody
(07:13):
right, or something happened ina relationship, so you do
develop some type of insecuritybased off of experiences, right?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right, absolutely, you know.
I'm glad you brought up aboutaffirmations.
This is one of the things I dolike to touch on, because these
days, when people talk aboutaffirmations, they're talking
about not always, but a lot oftimes people talk about you know
, what do you want to be like?
Oh, I'm successful, and if yousay it enough times, you're
affirming that and you're goingto become this success.
But really, the wayself-affirmations were developed
wasn't to look for what youwant to be.
(07:44):
It was to look inside ofyourself for what you already
see like.
If you feel like, oh, I'm agood person, or I have a person
of integrity, you repeat thoseas an affirmation, not to
convince yourself to becomesomething different, but to
ground yourself in what youalready are.
And all of us have some aspect,something in ourselves that we
feel good about.
And if you don't, then youreally need to go on a treasure
(08:06):
hunt for that.
That's, you know, an importantplace to start.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and I think you talk about and I know folks
these days.
You hear the work, the workright.
What is the work Right and Ithink that's a piece of it is is
like journaling what you likeabout yourself, no matter.
I love you said, no matter howbig or small it is.
Hey, I have good hair or I havegood teeth right, and we think
(08:33):
it's superficial, but we canfind small things, superficial
things that we don't like thatcan make us feel insecure.
So why not add as many thingsas you can on the list of things
that you like about yourself,of who you are as a person today
, not who you constantly arestriving to be?
And I love that because it goesback to feeling worthy right,
the truth is that we are worthytoday.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I want to jump off a bit of a sidebar, but to jump
off what you're saying before.
Like you said, when you wereyounger, you basketball.
It was about.
You know you had to be playingreally well to to get that
affirmation yeah so it'sespecially and I was guessing
that you well, through child,but probably into adolescence,
especially in adolescence, yeahwho you surround yourself, your
(09:19):
friends, I mean.
Like what are they focusing on?
And as adults, it reallyhappens, probably more subtly.
You know it's it's differentstage of life, but if there's
things you feel good aboutyourself, there's affirming from
within.
But are you putting yourself inan environment where you're the
positive qualities are beingaffirmed from without?
or are you being with people whokind of nobody can make you
(09:43):
feel worse about yourself?
But if you're there and it'spulling you down, then you kind
of you're having to fight tojust be okay and you're working
against yourself.
So, it's not all just inside ofyou.
It's also your choices for howyou're interacting in the world
and the situations you putyourself in.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, 100%, honoring those boundaries, right,
absolutely, with people who yourespect, people who make you
feel great about yourself.
If you are in a situation whereyou're in an environment where
you're not with your tribe oryou're not with the people who
value the things that you value,it will make you feel less than
(10:24):
to some degree right.
It will make you kind ofquestion yourself if you're not
in the right environment.
And one thing that I haverealized is that when I'm around
people who are growth-minded,people who are kind, people who
are Kind, people who areempathetic, I feel better about
(10:46):
myself.
When I leave those environments, I feel more energized, right,
right, and it doesn't make mequestion myself.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Right.
So you want people who are justgoing to be like, oh, you're so
wonderful, no matter what youdo.
I mean, sometimes it's kind ofnice to hear.
But people who are kind, likeeven if they have something to
say that might be hard, they'redoing it as a support of you,
not to pull you down.
Yeah, and I think that's likethat's also part of it.
(11:17):
Right, there's a genuinenessand honesty that we need in
order to continue to grow andfeel good about ourselves and
our relationships.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, 100%.
You know, now you have methinking about.
You know, when we are insecurewhen we go into an environment,
right, and let's say this is apositive environment, but we are
questioning ourselves to somedegree.
So you know, it's certainthings that we can do when we
(11:47):
are scared of rejection or weare feeling insecure in this
environment.
I know for me, right, a lot oftimes I can shapeshift, right, I
can kind of put on a mask tosome degree to kind of fit in
with that environment.
Right, maybe I, you know, justhide from the environment
(12:09):
altogether to protect myselffrom feeling rejected.
Right, is there any ways folkscan go into environments to feel
a little bit more comfortable?
Right, or they may not feelfully confident going into a new
environment, but I guess feelcomfortable with those emotions
(12:29):
within that they're feeling whenthey're afraid of rejection or
feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's important to acknowledge your concerns, your
anxieties, your fears, becausethen you can at least face them
and figure out what you can doabout them, whereas sometimes
people are like, oh, I'm notafraid, like you know, it's all
bluster.
But then that comes out and itcan really backfire.
Either you think you did greatand the people around you are
like oh my God, or, you know,even to you it's like whoa, so
(13:06):
be aware of it.
And then you brought up aboutthe self-affirmations.
Imagine, before you go into asituation that's difficult, use
them, be like okay, what do Ifeel good about myself?
And you pump yourself up withwhat you really believe about
you and you'll stand taller, soto speak.
You know you'll feel good.
And then there's alwayspreparing yourself.
(13:28):
I mean, this is we're talkingvery broadly like situations.
Well, different situations callfor different things.
But if you can know a littlebit about the situation, then
there might be some things youcan learn.
Like if you're going to a partywhere you know there's going to
be a lot of like uh, financialpeople I don't know and you know
(13:49):
nothing about.
Like, learn a couple things andyou don't have to be an expert
if you're going into anuncomfortable situation.
In fact, you can be theopposite.
You can be like, okay, wow,this is something I don't know
about, learn enough, so you knowsome questions.
Then you can go and you'relistening to people.
You say, wow, this isn my area.
And you ask a question and it'samazing how smart people might
think you are just from or smartor just.
(14:11):
I don't mean justintellectually smart, but like
even a sense of being, like acapable person, when you can ask
the right questions and youshow an interest and people love
to talk about themselves.
So then you can feel good.
You don't have to feel asinsecure because you can feel
good about the person whodoesn't being the person who
doesn't know.
Yeah, you know, sometimes ithelps if it's a situation where
(14:35):
you can have a buddy go with youor just you talk to somebody
ahead of time.
They're not with you, but inyour mind or your heart they're
with you because you know you'vetalked about it and they're
supportive.
So then you feel less alone.
It's lots of ways, but it's allabout finding the strength in
yourself and being good with you.
Not pretending, but actuallyfinding a way to be good in you.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
One hundred percent.
So being good in you, right?
So that comes with, you know,obviously doing the work and
being a little bit more aware.
Now, obviously, we all at somepoint have faced rejection and
probably will get rejected again, right, right, and it hurts,
right, it does hurt, it doessting to some degree, right,
(15:21):
yeah, how can folks, how do youknow when it's a problem, right,
that rejection is a, thatyou're having a real issue with
it, because it stings either way.
How do you know that you'rehaving a real issue with
rejection and how do you knowthat you have a healthy
relationship with rejection?
(15:43):
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's a really good question, um, so there's no.
You have to figure out foryourself.
You know how okay you are withhow you're handling it.
If it's really staying with youand you can't focus on other
things and it's bringing youdown, you probably have a real
issue with it if you'reoverblowing a situation.
(16:06):
So you have have a friend whoyou know you're meeting up for
lunch and they're 10, they're 15minutes late, and now you're
like, oh my God, they reallydon't spend time with me and you
like you go a little crazy withit.
Yeah, probably, especially ifit's somebody who's like, been
reliable, you probably have anissue with it.
Yeah, and sometimes you know,some situations really are hard.
(16:27):
So one of the things peoplewill say to me is oh, I
shouldn't care what other peoplethink.
Well, that's just not true.
I mean you know, we're socialpeople.
We want people to like us andthere's nothing wrong with that.
But if that rules your life,then you have a problem.
So I'll give you an examplefrom my life.
(16:51):
A long time ago I can't say howmany years, but a long time ago
when I was beginning to do sometalks or presentations, um, I
presented to a group reallystretching what I knew.
But you know, but I thought Idid a good job presenting and I
read an article somebody hadwritten.
It was like ow, I mean, but Ithought I did a good job
presenting and I read an articlesomebody had written.
It was like ow, I mean, theysaid some hard things.
(17:13):
At first I didn't want to readthe article.
Then I had to go back and lookand then I had to be able to
think what did they say thatmade sense, what can I learn
from it?
And then I had to let it go.
I had to like okay, yeah, Ihave to prepare better this way
or that way.
And then I had to put it downand just let it go because it
(17:36):
wasn't helping me anymore.
So when you can look at the,maybe a rejection be like okay,
what can I learn from thesituation, if anything.
And then, even if it's stillsting sometimes, time helps
sometimes, even if it stillstinks.
Sometimes time helps, even ifit still stinks, to be able to
say that's not relevant, itdoesn't have anything that's
helpful, that it's telling me.
So I'm going to let that be inmy back, my rear view mirror,
(17:59):
and move forward and, you know,be able to still come back and
feel good about you.
So I now like when I dopresentations yeah, of course I
want people to like thepresentations and I hope they do
.
But if I'm talking with peopleand I get some negative feedback
or let's say I'm not even doingwell, I know, by my own
standards, right, we all haveoff days, my own standards I'm
(18:20):
not doing great.
I could be like, ah, this hurts.
I'm afraid you know peoplearen't going to like it, the
rejection.
But I can be like but it's aday, everybody's got an off day
I still can feel good aboutmyself as a presenter and
recognize that this wasn't agood one.
So, whatever the rejection is,even if there's a good point in
(18:42):
it, you could say okay, it wasthis situation, it doesn't have
to be me.
And that's where I talk aboutthe rejection with a capital R
versus a little r.
Capital R is a rejection aboutsomething, a thing or a
happening.
Rejection with a capital R iswhen you feel like you are a
reject right, you take it on aswho you are.
Then I would say you definitelyhave a struggle there, unless
(19:05):
you enjoy feeling like a rejectin your life.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
But I'm, I'm guessing , not right 100 and not taking
anything personally, right, yeah, um, it's so many even when it
is personal, because sometimesit is personal you're gonna take
it personally because somebodysays you know to your for your
lousy haircut.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Like what were you thinking?
Whatever you know, right, belike ow, although that's your
hair, it's not you.
Or if it's somebody who reallyis harsh and is kind of name
calling or putting you down foryou to be able to recognize, I
don't have to take in whatthey're saying is my reality
about me.
It's still not going to feelgood.
(19:48):
Yeah, what they're saying is myreality about me.
It's still not going to feelgood, but you don't have to take
on their you know theirperceptions as your reality.
So I just want to throw that inthere, because sometimes it is
personal.
Yeah, and that's hard.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, it is, it is and I think the hardest part
right is when it hits thoseinsecure wounds that it hit
before.
Right, absolutely Right, I knowfor me.
I remember having arelationship, maybe two, three
years ago, and I remember itliterally ruining my.
(20:23):
I couldn't sleep, could barelyeat, and I took it so personal
Right and I felt like it was me,I felt myself of.
Hey you are worthy.
You know nothing is wrong withyou.
(20:52):
You actually are great, and ittook some time to realize that.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Were you able to believe it when you said it?
See, that's one thing.
Sometimes people are like, oh,I'm worthy, but they kind of
it's all bluster and underneath.
They don't believe it.
And just saying it doesn't makeit happen, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So how did you?
How?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
did you get there?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
you know what it was was I had to get back to the, to
the basics.
Right, okay, I had to get backto the basics, meaning that I
had to.
What I wasn't doing before wasI wasn't focused on my own
routine of, hey, uh, my basicsneeds right.
Right, am I financially good?
Am I budgeting correctly?
Am I eating healthy?
Am I sleeping good?
(21:34):
It goes back to that like meactually taking care of myself.
Then it became, from theevidence of me taking care of
myself, of, okay, you'restarting to feel better Today
was actually a good day andtaking it day by day to
eventually I started to realizethat, hey, you're great, I'm
(21:54):
proud of you.
You know, it became gratitude.
It became me using thatsituation as a positive of okay,
this happened and without thishappening, I wouldn't be kind of
doing the things that I amtoday of, you know, taking care
of myself, the routine, reallylooking deeply at myself in my
(22:17):
childhood and my background.
It became.
It honestly became somethingthat um was a positive for me.
Um, now, obviously, in a momentit was tough, but I had to just
get back to the fundamentals ofdoing the small things to kind
of create that evidence for me.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
That's how I remember doing it um for myself you mind
if I pull something out of whatyou said, which I think is
great yeah you said.
You said you started doing thethings to take care of yourself,
which is hugely important.
So, number one, if people arelistening and they're really
down and having a hard time justpulling themselves up, start
(22:57):
doing the basic self-care rightEating, right, sleeping, all
that.
So you did that.
But then you said, and then Isaid to myself I'm proud of you
and for me it's all aboutrelationship.
That's where the healing, thegrowth comes in.
It's relationship.
We are not one solid self.
We tend to say, like myself, asif there's one self, there's
(23:18):
not.
We are social creatures, andthat's true even inside of
ourselves.
So once you can recognize thatyou have a relationship within
you, there's different likeparts of you then you can move
from like I feel so rejected,I'm like everything's horrible.
Then you feel like it's all ofyou.
But once you can step back andsay, well, I can see that I am
(23:42):
feeling so rejected and now Ican see that I'm having trouble
getting off the couch and Ithink that what I need to do to
help myself is to start eatingor sleeping or working out or
whatever.
Now you're starting to relateto yourself, right, yeah, when
you can separate that out, thatgives some space for a healthier
part of you to start givingsome feedback, some positive
(24:05):
reinforcement, some validation,and you can grow from there.
When people are merged into thatfeeling really low place.
It's like their whole being isan anchor.
They have no way of pullingthemselves up.
So, recognizing that's a partof you, if you can recognize a
part of you that feels sad aboutwhat you're going through, or a
(24:26):
part of this having a reactionto it, you start growing that
part to have some empathy andcompassion and and you can make
a lot, of, a lot of growth in indoing that.
Um, that split, that, thatrecognition of the different
parts.
yeah, I think that's part ofwhat you did you at first, at
least I.
I'm doing this with very littleinformation so I could be off
(24:48):
base, but my sense is is likewhen that relationship broke up,
you took it hard.
All of you went down like youknow an anchor, and then you
were able to separate out andstart relating and helping
yourself.
You became your own best friendright.
Your own best friend to helpyou, and that's a very powerful
(25:12):
tool.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, you know that I think that's what hurt the most
was that you talk about yourrelationship with yourself and
how I was able to kind of lookat myself from outside in, and
you, you talk about this in yourbook too, um, where you take a
step outside of yourself to lookat yourself and become your own
(25:34):
best friend.
But I think we can also do thatin a critical way as well, and
so I think what hurt me most,why I was kind of stuck for a
little bit, was because I was socritical of myself little bit
was because I was so critical ofmyself, right, no matter what
my friends told me, no matterwhat the closest people in my
(25:56):
life told me, like, hey, nothingis wrong here, you did nothing
wrong.
We still love you, you're great, you're amazing.
For some reason, until I did itfor myself is when it became
something.
Now, it helped, right, to havepeople talk to me and build me
up, it definitely helped.
But until I actually flippedthe switch for myself is when it
actually started to turn aroundfor me, and so I think it's so
(26:21):
huge to take a step out and lookat yourself almost as if you're
playing like a video game orwatching a movie in first person
.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And it's hard if the message back to what you were
saying earlier messages you youtook in whatever was sent, if
the messages you took in whereyou're not enough, in whatever
way you take that in, thenthat's what you're carrying
forward and you have to in orderto free yourself to feel
happier in your life or morefulfilled.
You have to change and healthat self-perception.
(26:58):
And even with that, I encouragepeople to look inside and if
you can see that you have aself-critic, then you can also
see that you have a victim.
Now there's almost like threeparts, right.
There's the part that'swatching, the part that sees
that you're being a bully toyourself and the part that
recognizes the victim.
Right, and you can have empathyand compassion for the victim.
(27:18):
And sometimes it can help to belike, okay, you can be angry
with yourself for beatingyourself up, or you could say
what's going on, that I'mbeating myself up like that,
where is that bully coming from?
And it's like, oh, wow, he wasfed with all this nonsense about
him not being enough, like, wow, how hard that is.
Because he's really that bully,is really trying to help, he's
(27:42):
trying to make you do better sothat you can be worthy, not
recognizing.
It's just he's got it wrongbecause it's just the way he was
taught.
It's like, oh man, he's just,it's an unintended, but he's
hurting you in the misguidedthat's the word I'm looking for
the misguided attempt to helpyou get better, and then you can
(28:04):
have empathy and compassion forthat and this is obviously an
ongoing dialogue and then youfeel better.
But you have to help the innerbully, if you will too, or it
just keeps coming back trying tohelp you by beating you up,
which is a little problematic.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
It is, and so, with you saying that, now I'm
thinking about even myself,right, and we talk about being
self-aware and you have anacronym or domains that you call
is with STEM, right.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Right STEAM Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
STEAM.
I'm sorry, steam, can you gothrough STEAM and what that
looks like, because you'reessentially that's kind of what
we're talking about with STEAMand essentially that's kind of
(28:59):
what we're talking about withSTEAM.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, talk about that .
And then I want to kind of openup about some of my things that
I found within STEAM.
This is we need to develop abetter relationship with
ourselves and others.
But to develop a relationshipyou have to really know the
person.
If you want to make a change,you have to know what's going on
.
So it always starts withknowledge.
So we can say, well, developgreater self-awareness, that's
(29:21):
great, but what does that mean?
So people sit down, theyintrospect and come up with
whatever they come up with.
And when I looked through theliterature and in my experience
in different areas, what I foundwas relatively mostly all types
of therapy or help start withan awareness of the problem.
(29:43):
I say, okay, what's the problem?
I want to determine the problemand different approaches start
in different areas.
And what I found is there wereI came up with five areas of
awareness and the acronym isSTEAM.
First one is sensations.
So that is, what do you sensein your body?
And that could be a tightnessin your belly or your chest.
(30:06):
You might feel tears welling up, a lump in your throat, those
kinds of things.
So what do you sense in yourbody, and this could be when
something's happening or laterwhen you're thinking about it.
This is important because allof our emotional experiences are
based are body-based, so ourphysical sensations are telling
us a whole lot Sensations.
(30:26):
The T is for thoughts what areyou thinking and what do you
think about what you're thinking?
So we have thoughts runningthrough our head all the time.
I'm not good enough is athought.
I'm such an idiot for thinkingthat I'm not good enough.
There's your thought about yourthought.
So we have the thoughts, butjust because we have them
doesn't mean we've recognizedthem.
(30:48):
So the T is for what are youthinking, or what are your
thoughts about what you'rethinking.
Then we have the E, and that'sfor emotions.
We have lots of emotions andone of the things I've learned
is a lot of people haven't beentaught the emotions.
Or we confuse our emotions withour thoughts, or we have a very
limited awareness of ouremotions.
(31:08):
Or we confuse our emotions withour thoughts, or we have a very
limited awareness of ouremotions.
So we really want to exploreour emotions.
So what are you feeling?
I'm feeling like such an idiot.
Okay, that's a thought.
So you're thinking you're anidiot.
But what are you feeling?
I'm feeling angry with myself.
And then you want to say whatare my feelings about my
(31:29):
feelings?
So it might be I'm feelingreally insecure and jealous
about my girlfriend going outand doing whatever, and then the
feeling about the feeling mightbe I'm so angry with myself for
being jealous when she's justgoing to hang out with some
friends.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So emotions, s-t-e-a is actions.
What are your actions?
What are your actions?
What are your reactions?
In the example I just gave,your actions or reactions might
be texting the person a wholelot because you're worried about
what they're going to do, orthey're worried that they're
going to think that you're notthinking of them.
I think that was your example.
Yeah, and those are the basicareas of awareness.
(32:06):
And then we have M formentalizing, and it is jargony
I'm not thrilled with the word.
I always say that because it'sjust not but it's an important
concept and it really takes theother areas of awareness all in
together and you weave themtogether.
And so mentalizing isunderstanding someone's actions
(32:27):
based on their mental states,their thoughts, their feelings,
their fears, their fantasies,whatever their experiences are.
If you can really get all ofthat, if you get the person, you
understand their actions.
You don't just get it from yourhead, but also your heart.
This is, this is a.
It would be pseudo mentalizingto just think it.
You have to feel it andresonate with it.
(32:50):
Then you have empathy, you havecompassion.
In relationships, you very muchneed forgiveness.
You have that and we canmentalize ourselves and we can
mentalize other people.
So we can use steam really whenwe think about others or we
think within ourselves.
So it's a lot of pieces andI'll just tell people listening.
If you want to make use of this, you could just, even without
(33:12):
looking at my books or my videosor whatever, just write
S-T-E-A-M on a piece of papersensations, thoughts, emotions,
actions, mentalizing, thinkabout a situation and write in
whatever your sensations,thoughts, emotions for each of
those things and you can seewhere maybe you're struggling.
You know you may not knowwhat's in your body, what's
happening.
(33:32):
You can be like, oh wow, I needto attend to my body or my
thoughts or whatever, and thatcould be just a loose structure
for how to help yourself becomemore self-aware and connect with
yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So, yeah, no, that was was.
That was an amazing explanation.
And I think people talk, youknow, you hear the word trigger,
like, what are your triggers?
Right, sensation, maybe, youknow, chest, you feel some
tightness in your chest.
You start to think like, oh,you know, I'm not good enough.
So you, you have feelings ofnervousness, anxiousness right,
(34:09):
I'm feeling anxious, or.
But I like how you separatedthe two of like, hey, I feel,
you know, stupid, I feelunworthy.
That's a thought, right,separating thoughts from
emotions.
Um, and how you can become awareof yourself and certain, and it
goes back to certainenvironments of feeling these
sensations.
Okay, I feel this sensation.
How can I start to handle thisin a healthy way?
(34:33):
Right, I know for me, right,and you know I have friends, you
know they feel a sensation.
So what do they do?
They go, you know they get acocktail, right, to try to take
the sensation away.
Right, try to take the thoughts, to try to take the sensation
away.
Right, Try to take the thoughtsaway, try to take the emotions
away.
And what I found, you know, forme, it's been about six months
(34:57):
since I've had alcohol and whatI found is that, in certain
environments, these sensationsthat I feel it does make me
aware of like, oh okay, my chestkind of tightens up when I go
into a room where I'm unfamiliarwith people, right, and
understanding that it is anatural experience, and I'm able
(35:19):
to have peace with that and say, oh, this is natural, I can
understand it and realize thisis why I'm having it.
I can understand it and realizethis is why I'm having it, and
so I'm able to actually have ahealthy reaction to it, as
opposed to a negative reactionto it.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
To learn to be accepting of all of our
experiences is huge and can helpyou get through so much in life
.
So that's great, you go intothis environment.
It's uncomfortable.
It doesn't mean there's aproblem with you.
What it means is it's anuncomfortable situation.
That's what it means, and it'snot going to kill you, you're
going to be okay and yeah.
So that is key.
(35:57):
That's really key to know when,yeah, what you're experiencing
is an understandable thing and,frankly, once you really get or
mentalize someone, pretty muchanything that they're doing is
understandable Doesn't mean it'sokay, doesn't mean we're
approving of it.
It just means you canunderstand where the person's
(36:19):
coming from.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think one thing for me,and I've seen in myself, is
especially with thoughts.
I think thoughts are hugebecause a lot of times my radar
is off, and I think a lot of ourradars are off, meaning that I
can see a facial expression orbody language or, like you
(36:44):
mentioned before, maybesomebody's 10 or 15 minutes late
, or I didn't get a call back,or you know, I haven't heard
from somebody, and so I'moverreacting, just naturally in
my mind, I think that somethingis wrong, Right, or I think I'm
interpreting something that isnot real, something that is not
true, and so my radar can be offwhen I see certain things, um,
(37:10):
and the only way I've realizedthat is by just talking to
myself of like, hey, you knowit's, you know, let's calm down
here, let's think about this fora little bit.
Um, so with STEAM, right, howcan folks start to have, I guess
, better reactions?
(37:32):
Is it just the awareness?
It takes time to become awareof these certain things, and
then they can have betterreactions.
Maybe they actually act out ina way that they weren't proud of
, and then they are able to lookback on it and get better of,
and then they are able to lookback on it and get better?
How can folks start to, I guess, with the awareness that they
(38:00):
have, have better reactions tosome?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
of these thoughts and feelings that they experience.
So very good question.
Just having the awareness byitself is sometimes enough to
settle us down, because then yousee it and it becomes very
clear like, oh, wow, I'm reallyoverreacting.
And then you see it, you feelit, you calm down.
So if you have a sensitivity torejection, your friend's late,
you start getting all upset andthen you're like, well, wait a
(38:24):
second.
It's been like 15 minutes,chill out already because
they've been a reliable friendand there really isn't anything
to worry about.
Sometimes just the awareness isenough.
But even when that's not thecase, once you have the
awareness you can see where thestruggles are, you can see where
you need to put your focus.
(38:44):
I've worked with people who getreally irritable and they're
really upset.
We can't figure out why.
And then, with awareness, whatbecome?
What becomes apparent is theydon't really eat.
They're like, don't eat all dayand they're having, you know, a
little trouble with their bloodsugar levels.
So once they start eatingregularly, wow, they even out.
(39:05):
Or um, people, I've worked witha lot of people.
They explode, explode Likethey're.
They say, you know, I've got areally long fuse, I'm totally
okay, and then I explode.
We talk about that and whatbecomes apparent usually is that
they're not so totally okay.
They're suppressing all,whatever different feeling,
feelings or thoughts are,whatever the suppressing
(39:25):
everything till they, thepressure, is so built up, it
explodes out.
Once you know that and you canbe aware of the building
thoughts or feelings and theescalation, then you can be like
oh, wow, okay, I'm kind ofbothered, I'm annoyed, I'm irked
.
Now I'm getting reallyfrustrated.
You know, the next step is toget angry.
You're not going to thinkstraight.
(39:46):
You're like okay, let me pauseon frustration.
What can I do now to deal withthe situation?
And when people start beingable to monitor that and take
action, they're not doing theblowing up they used to do.
So that is just examples.
But the self-awareness opensyou up to all kinds of ways of
recognizing where differentproblems are and giving you
(40:07):
space to to address them.
So that's that's what the steamdoes, is it gives you that
space so that you can thenaddress what you need to.
Either, you know you have aharsh self critic where's it
coming from?
Can you understand it?
And kind of working with that?
(40:27):
Or, like I said, not eating, orsomebody who's you know,
drinking 15 cups of coffee a dayand it's really surprising that
they're anxious.
Maybe there's something wecould do about that.
You know a zillion differentscenarios.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, 100%, no, I agree, and I think that, like
you said, the main thing is justbreaking it down.
Think that, like you said, themain thing is just breaking it
down.
I think the first step is justthe awareness right and then
going from there.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So what's interesting , what I found, is I talk about
a healing agent beingcompassionate.
Self-awareness, wow.
So, and it's not, people willtalk about self-compassion.
They say, oh, you have to haveself-compassion.
I don't know if you've heardthat before.
It's kind of a thing andself-compassion is wonderful.
But here's the problem.
If you are someone who'snaturally beating yourself up
and you say, okay, I just needto have self-compassion, what's
(41:16):
my problem?
I just need to haveself-compassion.
You beat yourself up over nothaving self-compassion.
Exercises you do and you can'tquite get there.
This brings us back to thebeginning of the interview when
you said what got me into this?
It's like what if you can't getthere?
The self-awareness.
When you open yourself-awareness and then we do
(41:37):
that with STEAM Remember the Mis mentalizing.
So with the mentalizing, you'reable to have empathy for your
experience.
You're able to have compassionfor your experience.
Now you have compassionateself-awareness, yeah, and with
compassionate self-awareness youcan be more supportive and
caring and nurturing growth, asopposed to being harsh with your
(41:59):
self-awareness yeah.
So compassionate self-awarenessis key in my mind and you get
there with with becoming moreself-aware, and STEAM helps with
that.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, 100%.
And, like you mentioned,empathy, right, right, hey, you
are experiencing this because ofthis, and so it's okay, give
yourself grace through it, buthere's how we can you know, not
even, but and here's how to growfrom it, right, this is why you
feel this way, this is why youhave these thoughts, these
(42:33):
sensations, these emotions, andthis is how we can grow from it.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
And very importantly, I talk about compassionate
self-awareness, becauseeverything we see in the world
we interpret through ourselves,so that's the place we start is
getting clear within ourselves,but really compassionate other
awareness, so that if you canreally understand where other
people are coming from, haveempathy, have compassion, have
forgiveness If you can do thatwith others, then your
relationships will also flourish.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
And with that then you have, like this, fuller life
.
And this is a little kind ofoff script or off to the side,
but I, through all these years,what I firmly believe is that
it's all about connection, andwhether it's within ourselves,
in our relationship.
I think a lot of religion it'sabout connection.
What do people believe God isright?
(43:24):
It's this bigger connection.
So there's something aboutconnecting on a full, whole,
open level.
I think that's probably apretty damn good definition of
kind of love, right?
Really seeing someone acceptingthem openheartedly.
That's it.
(43:45):
That's to me any sense ofwellness on whatever level,
where it stems or comes from.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah.
So talking about connection,how, feeling connected, Right,
and I've even heard this beforeit's like being more connected
with yourself, being moreconnected with others.
I think in today's world wetalk about connection, how we?
We say that we're moreconnected than ever because we
have, you know, technology, wehave social media, but in a way
(44:17):
it's.
It's not as connected as we seein studies, where folks are
more lonely or probably thanever With connection.
What do you think the key toconnection is?
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think we have to be careful how we define it.
So it's interesting you and Iare talking and we see each
other, so we are connected onthis visual level.
There's been a couple of timesI'm aware that you've responded
to the way that I have like myfacial expressions or something
like that, and people who arelistening don't have that.
Now they're connected in.
Hi everybody, People who arelistening don't have that Now
they're connected in.
Yeah, hi, everybody we'reconnected in, but one they're
(44:51):
not talking with us.
Yeah, also, they're not seeingus.
So there's levels of connection.
And then you know I am enjoyingthis conversation.
But I imagine this would bedifferent if I had known you for
the last five years.
It would be a deeper level ofconnection, right.
So we let people in, hopefullydeeper level of connection,
right.
So we let people in, hopefullyeverybody listening.
You don't let everybody intotally deeply in your first
conversation, like not healthy.
(45:12):
So there's a levels ofconnection right, and to me that
the connection that people arefeeling it's very helpful.
Worldwide we are connectingmore, but on a certain level and
we're losing sometimes thedeeper connections If people are
(45:35):
only connecting on those moresuperficial levels or the more
superficial the level yes, youcould have more connections.
It's like on Facebook you can500 friends, but let's face it,
you don't really have 500friends or a thousand friends or
whatever it is.
Some people feel good like, oh,I have this many friends, but
if you just had one good friend,like somebody who really knows
you and you know them and you'regood with each other, that
means so much more On asuperficial level you could say
(45:57):
well, I'm connected with oneperson and you're connected with
500 people.
You cannot equate those two.
Yeah, you can't, and I thinkthat's a big struggle we have
Some of.
It is just the definition ofconnection, cause if you break
it down now, it's a totallydifferent ball game.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, it's so different.
It's so different and I thinkeven building relationship and
having and I guess, evenunderstanding people, accepting
people and now I'm starting torealize, is you kind of have the
formula of of accepting, beinga accepting of people for who
they are and being aware of whothey are same with ourselves?
(46:36):
How can we be a little bit moreconnected with ourselves and
develop a positive relationshipwith ourselves?
Is through awareness, throughaccepting who we are, and, um, I
think it's so much to learnfrom that to build a better
relationship with ourselves andothers, and when we do that we
(46:57):
feel really good about the lifethat we're living.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Right, and what's another piece that's beautiful
about this is if you can reallyget to know other people and
accept them.
You don't have to agree withthem, you don't even have to
like them.
You can feel like, oh my God, Ireally don't like what they're
doing.
But if you can come to a placewhere you had have some
compassionate awareness for them, then you can have a better way
(47:23):
of relating Again.
It doesn't mean you have toaccept them into your life as a
part of your every day, but youdon't carry so much anger and
hostility and you have the bestpossible relationship you can
with those other people whomight be in your life but very
different and people you don'twant to let in.
But you don't have to behostile toward them.
(47:44):
And I think there's a lot ofthat that's missing in this
world.
There's this whole thing offlipping to the other.
You're othering others, right?
People talk about it that way,and I'm talking about reversing
that and not othering others,but like making them more,
really connecting more with themso that you can have a civil
(48:04):
and even maybe deep conversationor relationship or at least
greater acceptance.
If we could do more of that inthe world, this world would look
very, very different 100percent.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
100 percent, it definitely will.
It definitely will.
So last question I want to askyou is bouncing back right and I
know we've been focusing onyour second book Bouncing Back
from Rejection, right, Right,what made you go with that?
(48:35):
Bouncing back from actuallybuilding resilience after
getting rejected versus hey, howcan you be okay with rejection
before?
Right, it's called bouncingback, Right.
What made you go, I guess, withthat angle as opposed to how to
(48:56):
not be afraid of rejection?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Right.
There's probably differentanswers to that.
One is my first book wasInsecure Love, so we talked
about the insecurity.
And now another facet is if youare struggling with having been
rejected, how do you bounceback?
But it's really, it's adifferent way of looking at how
do you develop greater sense ofsecurity in yourself and
relationships?
(49:19):
And, like you said, we allstruggle with rejection.
It's not like how to not berejected.
In fact you don't want to gothrough life not being rejected
Because you pretty much wouldnever leave your house and not
get on the computer or anythingelse, because that would be, you
know, so you can not berejected.
So it's more about how, whenyou are rejected, you can handle
(49:41):
that in a healthier way.
And the book really focuses onwhen people kind of
self-identify that rejection isa big struggle for them.
So then it speaks to thosepeople like how can you bounce
back from it?
I just I think that that's animportant way to think.
It's also a shift in mindset,right.
(50:02):
Rather than just like they feeltotally knocked down, it's like
, okay, but how do you come back?
There's a and I think it's likea chinese or japanese proverb
fall down six times, get upseven.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
you know how do you get back up same same concept
you know, improving yourrelationship with rejection
almost is.
It's almost, as if, um, itbecomes easier to bounce back
from it.
It becomes you become.
You see it in a different light.
You know you're not afraid ofit.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
People who struggle a lot.
They want to not get knockeddown.
Often we go wait, cause ifyou're already hurting so much,
you're like how can I just notget knocked down Cause I can't
take it anymore?
And to really to reframe that,it's like it's not about not
getting knocked down.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
It's about being able to, when you are knocked down,
getting back up, yeah, and notletting the feelings of
rejection stop you from exactlyliving life.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Exactly I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Leslie, where can people find you Right To
continue to follow your work?
Right Um to continue to followyour work and then also to um
you?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
you have other work um that you've done, um, that I
would love for you to kind ofshare and, um, let people know
about.
Sure, absolutely, thanks.
Thanks for asking that.
Um, you know, the truth is I ama therapist who just wanted to
find different ways of gettingstuff out there.
So I'm a therapist and I liketo write.
(51:31):
So, as you pointed out in thebeginning, I have my YouTube
channel, the three, like three,four minute videos on different
topics and it's all swirlingaround the stuff we've been
talking about in relationships.
So that's a great way forpeople to just get little bite
size information and then youcan, you know, chew on that for
a bit.
And the videos are.
(51:51):
Most of them, if you look inthe descriptions are connected
to articles I've written.
So if you like the video, youcan like go to the article.
So there's great stuff therewith that, and at this point, I
have a blog on psychology todaycalled Making Change.
I have a blog on psychologytoday called making change.
I have a blog on my websitecalled authentically you.
(52:12):
So you can, you know, check outthe the articles there, and you
can certainly subscribe to mynewsletter where I give
information about the latest law, the latest blog article or the
latest video or like thepodcast, like this will be on
the newsletter, those kinds ofthings, and you just go to my
website and you can sign up.
(52:35):
And my website, just so peopleknow, is drbeckerphelpscom.
That's D-R-B-E-C-K-E-R, hyphen,p-h-e-l-p-scom, so you can sign
up there.
Just poke around.
I have information oncompassionate self-awareness and
(52:55):
there was some other thing, butoh, I know there's also on the
books pages.
If you go to each books pagethere's a download so you can
download the material, some ofthe materials from each book and
they're just free, and sothings like there's a.
I want to bring this up beforewe some of the materials from
each book and they're just free,and so things like there's a.
I want to bring this up before.
We were talking about emotions.
I have an emotions list, which Ithink is great.
It's really helped a lot ofpeople and I have there's
(53:19):
categories of emotion, so it'dbe like happy, afraid, those
kinds of things, and then undereach category is like a whole
bunch of words that you can useand it's amazing when you learn
more emotions or to be able toarticulate more emotions, it
makes your self-understanding somuch richer.
It's like imagine drawing apicture with three colors or
(53:43):
having the whole box of crayons.
It's so much fuller, right.
So that's what we want to do,is help you be so much more
aware.
So go in.
I think my first book isInsecure in Love.
There's a word list there,bouncing Back from Rejection.
You'll know Bouncing Back fromRejection.
And then my most recent bookthat just came out was the
(54:03):
Insecure in Love workbook which,to be honest, is a combination
of the first book, insecure inLove, and the second book,
bouncing Back from Rejection,which introduced the concept of
STEAM.
All three of them offer theemotions list.
They're slightly different.
Each time I'm like, oh, let mechange this or that, essentially
the same, but if your listenersgo on there and print that out,
(54:26):
that by itself can be like agame changer in people's lives.
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, I'll definitely link all of those links to the
show notes.
But yeah, you have some amazingeven just reading bouncing back
from rejection.
You have some amazing exercisesto really help folks,
especially in those especiallyin those, you know, building
that relationship withthemselves, with self-acceptance
(54:53):
, and then you knowself-compassion.
You have a lot of differentexercises that people can
journal about, really greatjournal prompts that you have
for folks.
And so I think you know it'ssome amazing work that you're
doing and this is big.
I think this is the work.
(55:14):
When people say the work, wedon't know what that means.
Right, this is the work thatpeople can can start with and
start to take a look at and getyou know a better relationship
with themselves and betterrelationship with others.
And I just knew I had to talkto you, I had to reach out to
you and I appreciate you takingthe time to add value not only
(55:36):
to me but to my audience as well.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
So thank you, dr Litton.
Thank you so much and, yeah,thanks for having me on 100%.
Today's guest is Dr Leslie Becker Phelps.
She's a renowned psychologist,therapist, speaker and author.
Her work is dedicated tohelping people understand their
inner selves and what they needto do to become emotionally and
psychologically healthy.
Dr Leslie is a medical reviewerfor Everyday Health.
She's on a medical staff at RWJUniversity Hospital, somerset,
(00:24):
and she is a bestselling authorfor three self-help books.
These books include Insecure inLove Bouncing Back from
Rejection, and the Insecure inLove Workbook.
In addition to authoring thesebooks, dr Leslie writes a weekly
relationships blog on WebMD,and she's done that for over the
last decade, and she alsowrites for two other blogs
(00:46):
Authentically you and MakingChange for Psychology.
Today, in this episode, me andDr Leslie have an amazing
conversation about how she gotinto the space of rejection
sensitivity, how we buildinsecurities in our life.
We talk about affirmations andhow to use them.
We talk about why yourenvironment is important tools
(01:10):
to make you feel more secure inyourself and how to know if you
have an unhealthy or healthyrelationship with rejection, and
we talk about a lot more, andso I hope you guys get a lot of
value out of this episode andthanks for listening.
All right, so first thingsfirst.
I want to know a little bitabout what made you get into the
(01:30):
space of rejection sensitivityand why do you feel like it's
important today?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Actually it comes out of my focus on people's
struggles with insecurity.
It's just kind of another facetof it.
So my background there's a lotof things that led me to this,
but the most recent would be anumber of years ago.
I was the clinical director ofa trauma program for women with
(02:00):
histories of physical, sexual,emotional abuse.
They were inpatient, came to aday program.
We worked on stuff.
When I left the program and Ithought, huh, what else do I
want to do?
I want to do something light.
So I got into positivepsychology, but I couldn't help
coming back to but what aboutwhen you people have the tools,
you have these great tools, andyet it still doesn't work for
(02:22):
them?
They're still struggling.
What is it that makes peoplestruggle?
And that was the quest rightwhat makes people struggle and
how we can help people.
Even when they want to get help, it's just not working.
So that led me to a lot ofareas, but a key area is
attachment, insecure attachment,when people feel when they have
(02:44):
a difficult relationship withthemselves and a difficult
relationship with others andthat affects those relationships
.
Part of that is the rejectionsensitivity.
So it's part of that biggertopic.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, 100%.
I think a lot of folks feelthat insecurity piece, right,
and I love how you mentionedthat it's not just about your
sensitivity to rejection, it's adeeper issue of being insecure,
right.
And so what do you think thatcomes from?
Because in my history, right,I've always I felt like
(03:21):
insecurity came from mychildhood, right, I think for me
, my relationship with myparents, especially my father,
which our relationship isamazing today but growing up,
right, it was based off ofperformance, at least from my
perception, right, I felt thathe loved me more when I played
(03:41):
basketball.
Better.
When I didn't play basketballas good, I didn't feel that love
, right.
So my insecurity was based offof if I perform well, I'm worthy
, if I don't perform well, I'mnot worthy.
And I think a lot of times wefeel that today it's the
exterior, the validation that weget from others.
What have you seen in folks,mostly when it comes to how they
(04:06):
develop insecurities in theirlife?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
So you can develop it .
You know all from anyexperience all along the course
of your life the earlier ithappens, the more deeply it
happens, the harder, the more itbecomes a core of part of who
you are.
So you know you're talkingabout.
You know early childhood and ifyou think about it so you're
talking about early childhood,and if you think about it when
you're growing up, think of allthe interactions you have with
your caregivers, your mother,your father, your grandparents,
(04:32):
a nanny, whatever it is.
Every day, how many, ever timesa day.
The experience is layered one ontop of the other.
And so if, from a young age,you're getting the message that
you're never doing anything goodenough, like you know you need
to be doing this and it's greatif you hit this goal, but then
(04:53):
that's not enough, because theykeep focusing on the next one
and the next one, and so youalways feel like you're not
measuring up.
And you think about a kid whogets that message repeatedly
over time, versus a child,several times a day over the
years, gets the message you areamazing, wow, you're, you're,
you're really trying hard,You're reaching this goal.
It aren't.
Your efforts are paying off,isn't it wonderful?
(05:13):
So they're still giving themessage of the goals are
important, but there's you'reseeing that they're focusing on
the efforts and who they are asa human being, and those two
kids will grow up and becomeadults who relate to themselves
very differently.
So it's I really always go backto it's your relationship with
yourself and your relationshipwith other significant others in
(05:36):
your life, how you relate tothem.
That is the foundation for thesecurity or lack of security we
feel, you know, but it's notjust in the childhood, right.
That's just that lays afoundation and then that'll
affect how we see things.
We're going to be more likelyto see support or lack of
support from people, but youstill have experiences that can
help you develop in differingways.
(06:01):
If so, if you feel good aboutyourself, right, but you get
into adulthood and then you getinto a significant relationship
where the person's abusive.
Yeah, if you don't have it inyou to step away.
It wears away, it wears away.
You start to question yourselfand you develop that insecurity
within that relationship.
So this is an ever-moving,ever-changing relationship you
(06:26):
have with yourself and the worldaround you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
No, it definitely makes sense because I think even
in your book Right, we talkedabout Affirmations and you
specifically talked aboutaffirmations and not necessarily
affirmations were developed sothat you can remind yourself who
you are Right and you can getinto relationships, like you
said, where almost you forgetwho you are Right.
(06:53):
They change the perception ofhow you show up in relationship,
right?
So, for instance, maybe yourold partner got mad if you
didn't text them, so now whenyou go into another relationship
, you get anxious aboutconstantly texting somebody
(07:13):
right, or something happened ina relationship, so you do
develop some type of insecuritybased off of experiences, right?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right, absolutely, you know.
I'm glad you brought up aboutaffirmations.
This is one of the things I dolike to touch on, because these
days, when people talk aboutaffirmations, they're talking
about not always, but a lot oftimes people talk about you know
, what do you want to be like?
Oh, I'm successful, and if yousay it enough times, you're
affirming that and you're goingto become this success.
But really, the wayself-affirmations were developed
wasn't to look for what youwant to be.
(07:44):
It was to look inside ofyourself for what you already
see like.
If you feel like, oh, I'm agood person, or I have a person
of integrity, you repeat thoseas an affirmation, not to
convince yourself to becomesomething different, but to
ground yourself in what youalready are.
And all of us have some aspect,something in ourselves that we
feel good about.
And if you don't, then youreally need to go on a treasure
(08:06):
hunt for that.
That's, you know, an importantplace to start.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and I think you talk about and I know folks
these days.
You hear the work, the workright.
What is the work Right and Ithink that's a piece of it is is
like journaling what you likeabout yourself, no matter.
I love you said, no matter howbig or small it is.
Hey, I have good hair or I havegood teeth right, and we think
(08:33):
it's superficial, but we canfind small things, superficial
things that we don't like thatcan make us feel insecure.
So why not add as many thingsas you can on the list of things
that you like about yourself,of who you are as a person today
, not who you constantly arestriving to be?
And I love that because it goesback to feeling worthy right,
the truth is that we are worthytoday.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I want to jump off a bit of a sidebar, but to jump
off what you're saying before.
Like you said, when you wereyounger, you basketball.
It was about.
You know you had to be playingreally well to to get that
affirmation yeah so it'sespecially and I was guessing
that you well, through child,but probably into adolescence,
especially in adolescence, yeahwho you surround yourself, your
(09:19):
friends, I mean.
Like what are they focusing on?
And as adults, it reallyhappens, probably more subtly.
You know it's it's differentstage of life, but if there's
things you feel good aboutyourself, there's affirming from
within.
But are you putting yourself inan environment where you're the
positive qualities are beingaffirmed from without?
or are you being with people whokind of nobody can make you
(09:43):
feel worse about yourself?
But if you're there and it'spulling you down, then you kind
of you're having to fight tojust be okay and you're working
against yourself.
So, it's not all just inside ofyou.
It's also your choices for howyou're interacting in the world
and the situations you putyourself in.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, 100%, honoring those boundaries, right,
absolutely, with people who yourespect, people who make you
feel great about yourself.
If you are in a situation whereyou're in an environment where
you're not with your tribe oryou're not with the people who
value the things that you value,it will make you feel less than
(10:24):
to some degree right.
It will make you kind ofquestion yourself if you're not
in the right environment.
And one thing that I haverealized is that when I'm around
people who are growth-minded,people who are kind, people who
are Kind, people who areempathetic, I feel better about
(10:46):
myself.
When I leave those environments, I feel more energized, right,
right, and it doesn't make mequestion myself.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Right.
So you want people who are justgoing to be like, oh, you're so
wonderful, no matter what youdo.
I mean, sometimes it's kind ofnice to hear.
But people who are kind, likeeven if they have something to
say that might be hard, they'redoing it as a support of you,
not to pull you down.
Yeah, and I think that's likethat's also part of it.
(11:17):
Right, there's a genuinenessand honesty that we need in
order to continue to grow andfeel good about ourselves and
our relationships.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, 100%.
You know, now you have methinking about.
You know, when we are insecurewhen we go into an environment,
right, and let's say this is apositive environment, but we are
questioning ourselves to somedegree.
So you know, it's certainthings that we can do when we
(11:47):
are scared of rejection or weare feeling insecure in this
environment.
I know for me, right, a lot oftimes I can shapeshift, right, I
can kind of put on a mask tosome degree to kind of fit in
with that environment.
Right, maybe I, you know, justhide from the environment
(12:09):
altogether to protect myselffrom feeling rejected.
Right, is there any ways folkscan go into environments to feel
a little bit more comfortable?
Right, or they may not feelfully confident going into a new
environment, but I guess feelcomfortable with those emotions
(12:29):
within that they're feeling whenthey're afraid of rejection or
feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's important to acknowledge your concerns, your
anxieties, your fears, becausethen you can at least face them
and figure out what you can doabout them, whereas sometimes
people are like, oh, I'm notafraid, like you know, it's all
bluster.
But then that comes out and itcan really backfire.
Either you think you did greatand the people around you are
like oh my God, or, you know,even to you it's like whoa, so
(13:06):
be aware of it.
And then you brought up aboutthe self-affirmations.
Imagine, before you go into asituation that's difficult, use
them, be like okay, what do Ifeel good about myself?
And you pump yourself up withwhat you really believe about
you and you'll stand taller, soto speak.
You know you'll feel good.
And then there's alwayspreparing yourself.
(13:28):
I mean, this is we're talkingvery broadly like situations.
Well, different situations callfor different things.
But if you can know a littlebit about the situation, then
there might be some things youcan learn.
Like if you're going to a partywhere you know there's going to
be a lot of like uh, financialpeople I don't know and you know
(13:49):
nothing about.
Like, learn a couple things andyou don't have to be an expert
if you're going into anuncomfortable situation.
In fact, you can be theopposite.
You can be like, okay, wow,this is something I don't know
about, learn enough, so you knowsome questions.
Then you can go and you'relistening to people.
You say, wow, this isn my area.
And you ask a question and it'samazing how smart people might
think you are just from or smartor just.
(14:11):
I don't mean justintellectually smart, but like
even a sense of being, like acapable person, when you can ask
the right questions and youshow an interest and people love
to talk about themselves.
So then you can feel good.
You don't have to feel asinsecure because you can feel
good about the person whodoesn't being the person who
doesn't know.
Yeah, you know, sometimes ithelps if it's a situation where
(14:35):
you can have a buddy go with youor just you talk to somebody
ahead of time.
They're not with you, but inyour mind or your heart they're
with you because you know you'vetalked about it and they're
supportive.
So then you feel less alone.
It's lots of ways, but it's allabout finding the strength in
yourself and being good with you.
Not pretending, but actuallyfinding a way to be good in you.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
One hundred percent.
So being good in you, right?
So that comes with, you know,obviously doing the work and
being a little bit more aware.
Now, obviously, we all at somepoint have faced rejection and
probably will get rejected again, right, right, and it hurts,
right, it does hurt, it doessting to some degree, right,
(15:21):
yeah, how can folks, how do youknow when it's a problem, right,
that rejection is a, thatyou're having a real issue with
it, because it stings either way.
How do you know that you'rehaving a real issue with
rejection and how do you knowthat you have a healthy
relationship with rejection?
(15:43):
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That's a really good question, um, so there's no.
You have to figure out foryourself.
You know how okay you are withhow you're handling it.
If it's really staying with youand you can't focus on other
things and it's bringing youdown, you probably have a real
issue with it if you'reoverblowing a situation.
(16:06):
So you have have a friend whoyou know you're meeting up for
lunch and they're 10, they're 15minutes late, and now you're
like, oh my God, they reallydon't spend time with me and you
like you go a little crazy withit.
Yeah, probably, especially ifit's somebody who's like, been
reliable, you probably have anissue with it.
Yeah, and sometimes you know,some situations really are hard.
(16:27):
So one of the things peoplewill say to me is oh, I
shouldn't care what other peoplethink.
Well, that's just not true.
I mean you know, we're socialpeople.
We want people to like us andthere's nothing wrong with that.
But if that rules your life,then you have a problem.
So I'll give you an examplefrom my life.
(16:51):
A long time ago I can't say howmany years, but a long time ago
when I was beginning to do sometalks or presentations, um, I
presented to a group reallystretching what I knew.
But you know, but I thought Idid a good job presenting and I
read an article somebody hadwritten.
It was like ow, I mean, but Ithought I did a good job
presenting and I read an articlesomebody had written.
It was like ow, I mean, theysaid some hard things.
(17:13):
At first I didn't want to readthe article.
Then I had to go back and lookand then I had to be able to
think what did they say thatmade sense, what can I learn
from it?
And then I had to let it go.
I had to like okay, yeah, Ihave to prepare better this way
or that way.
And then I had to put it downand just let it go because it
(17:36):
wasn't helping me anymore.
So when you can look at the,maybe a rejection be like okay,
what can I learn from thesituation, if anything.
And then, even if it's stillsting sometimes, time helps
sometimes, even if it stillstinks.
Sometimes time helps, even ifit still stinks, to be able to
say that's not relevant, itdoesn't have anything that's
helpful, that it's telling me.
So I'm going to let that be inmy back, my rear view mirror,
(17:59):
and move forward and, you know,be able to still come back and
feel good about you.
So I now like when I dopresentations yeah, of course I
want people to like thepresentations and I hope they do
.
But if I'm talking with peopleand I get some negative feedback
or let's say I'm not even doingwell, I know, by my own
standards, right, we all haveoff days, my own standards I'm
(18:20):
not doing great.
I could be like, ah, this hurts.
I'm afraid you know peoplearen't going to like it, the
rejection.
But I can be like but it's aday, everybody's got an off day
I still can feel good aboutmyself as a presenter and
recognize that this wasn't agood one.
So, whatever the rejection is,even if there's a good point in
(18:42):
it, you could say okay, it wasthis situation, it doesn't have
to be me.
And that's where I talk aboutthe rejection with a capital R
versus a little r.
Capital R is a rejection aboutsomething, a thing or a
happening.
Rejection with a capital R iswhen you feel like you are a
reject right, you take it on aswho you are.
Then I would say you definitelyhave a struggle there, unless
(19:05):
you enjoy feeling like a rejectin your life.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
But I'm, I'm guessing , not right 100 and not taking
anything personally, right, yeah, um, it's so many even when it
is personal, because sometimesit is personal you're gonna take
it personally because somebodysays you know to your for your
lousy haircut.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Like what were you thinking?
Whatever you know, right, belike ow, although that's your
hair, it's not you.
Or if it's somebody who reallyis harsh and is kind of name
calling or putting you down foryou to be able to recognize, I
don't have to take in whatthey're saying is my reality
about me.
It's still not going to feelgood.
(19:48):
Yeah, what they're saying is myreality about me.
It's still not going to feelgood, but you don't have to take
on their you know theirperceptions as your reality.
So I just want to throw that inthere, because sometimes it is
personal.
Yeah, and that's hard.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, it is, it is and I think the hardest part
right is when it hits thoseinsecure wounds that it hit
before.
Right, absolutely Right, I knowfor me.
I remember having arelationship, maybe two, three
years ago, and I remember itliterally ruining my.
(20:23):
I couldn't sleep, could barelyeat, and I took it so personal
Right and I felt like it was me,I felt myself of.
Hey you are worthy.
You know nothing is wrong withyou.
(20:52):
You actually are great, and ittook some time to realize that.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Were you able to believe it when you said it?
See, that's one thing.
Sometimes people are like, oh,I'm worthy, but they kind of
it's all bluster and underneath.
They don't believe it.
And just saying it doesn't makeit happen, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So how did you?
How?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
did you get there?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
you know what it was was I had to get back to the, to
the basics.
Right, okay, I had to get backto the basics, meaning that I
had to.
What I wasn't doing before wasI wasn't focused on my own
routine of, hey, uh, my basicsneeds right.
Right, am I financially good?
Am I budgeting correctly?
Am I eating healthy?
Am I sleeping good?
(21:34):
It goes back to that like meactually taking care of myself.
Then it became, from theevidence of me taking care of
myself, of, okay, you'restarting to feel better Today
was actually a good day andtaking it day by day to
eventually I started to realizethat, hey, you're great, I'm
(21:54):
proud of you.
You know, it became gratitude.
It became me using thatsituation as a positive of okay,
this happened and without thishappening, I wouldn't be kind of
doing the things that I amtoday of, you know, taking care
of myself, the routine, reallylooking deeply at myself in my
(22:17):
childhood and my background.
It became.
It honestly became somethingthat um was a positive for me.
Um, now, obviously, in a momentit was tough, but I had to just
get back to the fundamentals ofdoing the small things to kind
of create that evidence for me.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
That's how I remember doing it um for myself you mind
if I pull something out of whatyou said, which I think is
great yeah you said.
You said you started doing thethings to take care of yourself,
which is hugely important.
So, number one, if people arelistening and they're really
down and having a hard time justpulling themselves up, start
(22:57):
doing the basic self-care rightEating, right, sleeping, all
that.
So you did that.
But then you said, and then Isaid to myself I'm proud of you
and for me it's all aboutrelationship.
That's where the healing, thegrowth comes in.
It's relationship.
We are not one solid self.
We tend to say, like myself, asif there's one self, there's
(23:18):
not.
We are social creatures, andthat's true even inside of
ourselves.
So once you can recognize thatyou have a relationship within
you, there's different likeparts of you then you can move
from like I feel so rejected,I'm like everything's horrible.
Then you feel like it's all ofyou.
But once you can step back andsay, well, I can see that I am
(23:42):
feeling so rejected and now Ican see that I'm having trouble
getting off the couch and Ithink that what I need to do to
help myself is to start eatingor sleeping or working out or
whatever.
Now you're starting to relateto yourself, right, yeah, when
you can separate that out, thatgives some space for a healthier
part of you to start givingsome feedback, some positive
(24:05):
reinforcement, some validation,and you can grow from there.
When people are merged into thatfeeling really low place.
It's like their whole being isan anchor.
They have no way of pullingthemselves up.
So, recognizing that's a partof you, if you can recognize a
part of you that feels sad aboutwhat you're going through, or a
(24:26):
part of this having a reactionto it, you start growing that
part to have some empathy andcompassion and and you can make
a lot, of, a lot of growth in indoing that.
Um, that split, that, thatrecognition of the different
parts.
yeah, I think that's part ofwhat you did you at first, at
least I.
I'm doing this with very littleinformation so I could be off
(24:48):
base, but my sense is is likewhen that relationship broke up,
you took it hard.
All of you went down like youknow an anchor, and then you
were able to separate out andstart relating and helping
yourself.
You became your own best friendright.
Your own best friend to helpyou, and that's a very powerful
(25:12):
tool.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, you know that I think that's what hurt the most
was that you talk about yourrelationship with yourself and
how I was able to kind of lookat myself from outside in, and
you, you talk about this in yourbook too, um, where you take a
step outside of yourself to lookat yourself and become your own
(25:34):
best friend.
But I think we can also do thatin a critical way as well, and
so I think what hurt me most,why I was kind of stuck for a
little bit, was because I was socritical of myself little bit
was because I was so critical ofmyself, right, no matter what
my friends told me, no matterwhat the closest people in my
(25:56):
life told me, like, hey, nothingis wrong here, you did nothing
wrong.
We still love you, you're great, you're amazing.
For some reason, until I did itfor myself is when it became
something.
Now, it helped, right, to havepeople talk to me and build me
up, it definitely helped.
But until I actually flippedthe switch for myself is when it
actually started to turn aroundfor me, and so I think it's so
(26:21):
huge to take a step out and lookat yourself almost as if you're
playing like a video game orwatching a movie in first person
.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And it's hard if the message back to what you were
saying earlier messages you youtook in whatever was sent, if
the messages you took in whereyou're not enough, in whatever
way you take that in, thenthat's what you're carrying
forward and you have to in orderto free yourself to feel
happier in your life or morefulfilled.
You have to change and healthat self-perception.
(26:58):
And even with that, I encouragepeople to look inside and if
you can see that you have aself-critic, then you can also
see that you have a victim.
Now there's almost like threeparts, right.
There's the part that'swatching, the part that sees
that you're being a bully toyourself and the part that
recognizes the victim.
Right, and you can have empathyand compassion for the victim.
(27:18):
And sometimes it can help to belike, okay, you can be angry
with yourself for beatingyourself up, or you could say
what's going on, that I'mbeating myself up like that,
where is that bully coming from?
And it's like, oh, wow, he wasfed with all this nonsense about
him not being enough, like, wow, how hard that is.
Because he's really that bully,is really trying to help, he's
(27:42):
trying to make you do better sothat you can be worthy, not
recognizing.
It's just he's got it wrongbecause it's just the way he was
taught.
It's like, oh man, he's just,it's an unintended, but he's
hurting you in the misguidedthat's the word I'm looking for
the misguided attempt to helpyou get better, and then you can
(28:04):
have empathy and compassion forthat and this is obviously an
ongoing dialogue and then youfeel better.
But you have to help the innerbully, if you will too, or it
just keeps coming back trying tohelp you by beating you up,
which is a little problematic.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
It is, and so, with you saying that, now I'm
thinking about even myself,right, and we talk about being
self-aware and you have anacronym or domains that you call
is with STEM, right.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Right STEAM Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
STEAM.
I'm sorry, steam, can you gothrough STEAM and what that
looks like, because you'reessentially that's kind of what
we're talking about with STEAMand essentially that's kind of
(28:59):
what we're talking about withSTEAM.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, talk about that .
And then I want to kind of openup about some of my things that
I found within STEAM.
This is we need to develop abetter relationship with
ourselves and others.
But to develop a relationshipyou have to really know the
person.
If you want to make a change,you have to know what's going on
.
So it always starts withknowledge.
So we can say, well, developgreater self-awareness, that's
(29:21):
great, but what does that mean?
So people sit down, theyintrospect and come up with
whatever they come up with.
And when I looked through theliterature and in my experience
in different areas, what I foundwas relatively mostly all types
of therapy or help start withan awareness of the problem.
(29:43):
I say, okay, what's the problem?
I want to determine the problemand different approaches start
in different areas.
And what I found is there wereI came up with five areas of
awareness and the acronym isSTEAM.
First one is sensations.
So that is, what do you sensein your body?
And that could be a tightnessin your belly or your chest.
(30:06):
You might feel tears welling up, a lump in your throat, those
kinds of things.
So what do you sense in yourbody, and this could be when
something's happening or laterwhen you're thinking about it.
This is important because allof our emotional experiences are
based are body-based, so ourphysical sensations are telling
us a whole lot Sensations.
(30:26):
The T is for thoughts what areyou thinking and what do you
think about what you're thinking?
So we have thoughts runningthrough our head all the time.
I'm not good enough is athought.
I'm such an idiot for thinkingthat I'm not good enough.
There's your thought about yourthought.
So we have the thoughts, butjust because we have them
doesn't mean we've recognizedthem.
(30:48):
So the T is for what are youthinking, or what are your
thoughts about what you'rethinking.
Then we have the E, and that'sfor emotions.
We have lots of emotions andone of the things I've learned
is a lot of people haven't beentaught the emotions.
Or we confuse our emotions withour thoughts, or we have a very
limited awareness of ouremotions.
(31:08):
Or we confuse our emotions withour thoughts, or we have a very
limited awareness of ouremotions.
So we really want to exploreour emotions.
So what are you feeling?
I'm feeling like such an idiot.
Okay, that's a thought.
So you're thinking you're anidiot.
But what are you feeling?
I'm feeling angry with myself.
And then you want to say whatare my feelings about my
(31:29):
feelings?
So it might be I'm feelingreally insecure and jealous
about my girlfriend going outand doing whatever, and then the
feeling about the feeling mightbe I'm so angry with myself for
being jealous when she's justgoing to hang out with some
friends.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So emotions, s-t-e-a is actions.
What are your actions?
What are your actions?
What are your reactions?
In the example I just gave,your actions or reactions might
be texting the person a wholelot because you're worried about
what they're going to do, orthey're worried that they're
going to think that you're notthinking of them.
I think that was your example.
Yeah, and those are the basicareas of awareness.
(32:06):
And then we have M formentalizing, and it is jargony
I'm not thrilled with the word.
I always say that because it'sjust not but it's an important
concept and it really takes theother areas of awareness all in
together and you weave themtogether.
And so mentalizing isunderstanding someone's actions
(32:27):
based on their mental states,their thoughts, their feelings,
their fears, their fantasies,whatever their experiences are.
If you can really get all ofthat, if you get the person, you
understand their actions.
You don't just get it from yourhead, but also your heart.
This is, this is a.
It would be pseudo mentalizingto just think it.
You have to feel it andresonate with it.
(32:50):
Then you have empathy, you havecompassion.
In relationships, you very muchneed forgiveness.
You have that and we canmentalize ourselves and we can
mentalize other people.
So we can use steam really whenwe think about others or we
think within ourselves.
So it's a lot of pieces andI'll just tell people listening.
If you want to make use of this, you could just, even without
(33:12):
looking at my books or my videosor whatever, just write
S-T-E-A-M on a piece of papersensations, thoughts, emotions,
actions, mentalizing, thinkabout a situation and write in
whatever your sensations,thoughts, emotions for each of
those things and you can seewhere maybe you're struggling.
You know you may not knowwhat's in your body, what's
happening.
(33:32):
You can be like, oh wow, I needto attend to my body or my
thoughts or whatever, and thatcould be just a loose structure
for how to help yourself becomemore self-aware and connect with
yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So, yeah, no, that was was.
That was an amazing explanation.
And I think people talk, youknow, you hear the word trigger,
like, what are your triggers?
Right, sensation, maybe, youknow, chest, you feel some
tightness in your chest.
You start to think like, oh,you know, I'm not good enough.
So you, you have feelings ofnervousness, anxiousness right,
(34:09):
I'm feeling anxious, or.
But I like how you separatedthe two of like, hey, I feel,
you know, stupid, I feelunworthy.
That's a thought, right,separating thoughts from
emotions.
Um, and how you can become awareof yourself and certain, and it
goes back to certainenvironments of feeling these
sensations.
Okay, I feel this sensation.
How can I start to handle thisin a healthy way?
(34:33):
Right, I know for me, right,and you know I have friends, you
know they feel a sensation.
So what do they do?
They go, you know they get acocktail, right, to try to take
the sensation away.
Right, try to take the thoughts, to try to take the sensation
away.
Right, Try to take the thoughtsaway, try to take the emotions
away.
And what I found, you know, forme, it's been about six months
(34:57):
since I've had alcohol and whatI found is that, in certain
environments, these sensationsthat I feel it does make me
aware of like, oh okay, my chestkind of tightens up when I go
into a room where I'm unfamiliarwith people, right, and
understanding that it is anatural experience, and I'm able
(35:19):
to have peace with that and say, oh, this is natural, I can
understand it and realize thisis why I'm having it.
I can understand it and realizethis is why I'm having it, and
so I'm able to actually have ahealthy reaction to it, as
opposed to a negative reactionto it.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
To learn to be accepting of all of our
experiences is huge and can helpyou get through so much in life
.
So that's great, you go intothis environment.
It's uncomfortable.
It doesn't mean there's aproblem with you.
What it means is it's anuncomfortable situation.
That's what it means, and it'snot going to kill you, you're
going to be okay and yeah.
So that is key.
(35:57):
That's really key to know when,yeah, what you're experiencing
is an understandable thing and,frankly, once you really get or
mentalize someone, pretty muchanything that they're doing is
understandable Doesn't mean it'sokay, doesn't mean we're
approving of it.
It just means you canunderstand where the person's
(36:19):
coming from.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think one thing for me,and I've seen in myself, is
especially with thoughts.
I think thoughts are hugebecause a lot of times my radar
is off, and I think a lot of ourradars are off, meaning that I
can see a facial expression orbody language or, like you
(36:44):
mentioned before, maybesomebody's 10 or 15 minutes late
, or I didn't get a call back,or you know, I haven't heard
from somebody, and so I'moverreacting, just naturally in
my mind, I think that somethingis wrong, Right, or I think I'm
interpreting something that isnot real, something that is not
true, and so my radar can be offwhen I see certain things, um,
(37:10):
and the only way I've realizedthat is by just talking to
myself of like, hey, you knowit's, you know, let's calm down
here, let's think about this fora little bit.
Um, so with STEAM, right, howcan folks start to have, I guess
, better reactions?
(37:32):
Is it just the awareness?
It takes time to become awareof these certain things, and
then they can have betterreactions.
Maybe they actually act out ina way that they weren't proud of
, and then they are able to lookback on it and get better of,
and then they are able to lookback on it and get better?
How can folks start to, I guess, with the awareness that they
(38:00):
have, have better reactions tosome?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
of these thoughts and feelings that they experience.
So very good question.
Just having the awareness byitself is sometimes enough to
settle us down, because then yousee it and it becomes very
clear like, oh, wow, I'm reallyoverreacting.
And then you see it, you feelit, you calm down.
So if you have a sensitivity torejection, your friend's late,
you start getting all upset andthen you're like, well, wait a
(38:24):
second.
It's been like 15 minutes,chill out already because
they've been a reliable friendand there really isn't anything
to worry about.
Sometimes just the awareness isenough.
But even when that's not thecase, once you have the
awareness you can see where thestruggles are, you can see where
you need to put your focus.
(38:44):
I've worked with people who getreally irritable and they're
really upset.
We can't figure out why.
And then, with awareness, whatbecome?
What becomes apparent is theydon't really eat.
They're like, don't eat all dayand they're having, you know, a
little trouble with their bloodsugar levels.
So once they start eatingregularly, wow, they even out.
(39:05):
Or um, people, I've worked witha lot of people.
They explode, explode Likethey're.
They say, you know, I've got areally long fuse, I'm totally
okay, and then I explode.
We talk about that and whatbecomes apparent usually is that
they're not so totally okay.
They're suppressing all,whatever different feeling,
feelings or thoughts are,whatever the suppressing
(39:25):
everything till they, thepressure, is so built up, it
explodes out.
Once you know that and you canbe aware of the building
thoughts or feelings and theescalation, then you can be like
oh, wow, okay, I'm kind ofbothered, I'm annoyed, I'm irked
.
Now I'm getting reallyfrustrated.
You know, the next step is toget angry.
You're not going to thinkstraight.
(39:46):
You're like okay, let me pauseon frustration.
What can I do now to deal withthe situation?
And when people start beingable to monitor that and take
action, they're not doing theblowing up they used to do.
So that is just examples.
But the self-awareness opensyou up to all kinds of ways of
recognizing where differentproblems are and giving you
(40:07):
space to to address them.
So that's that's what the steamdoes, is it gives you that
space so that you can thenaddress what you need to.
Either, you know you have aharsh self critic where's it
coming from?
Can you understand it?
And kind of working with that?
(40:27):
Or, like I said, not eating, orsomebody who's you know,
drinking 15 cups of coffee a dayand it's really surprising that
they're anxious.
Maybe there's something wecould do about that.
You know a zillion differentscenarios.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, 100%, no, I agree, and I think that, like
you said, the main thing is justbreaking it down.
Think that, like you said, themain thing is just breaking it
down.
I think the first step is justthe awareness right and then
going from there.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So what's interesting , what I found, is I talk about
a healing agent beingcompassionate.
Self-awareness, wow.
So, and it's not, people willtalk about self-compassion.
They say, oh, you have to haveself-compassion.
I don't know if you've heardthat before.
It's kind of a thing andself-compassion is wonderful.
But here's the problem.
If you are someone who'snaturally beating yourself up
and you say, okay, I just needto have self-compassion, what's
(41:16):
my problem?
I just need to haveself-compassion.
You beat yourself up over nothaving self-compassion.
Exercises you do and you can'tquite get there.
This brings us back to thebeginning of the interview when
you said what got me into this?
It's like what if you can't getthere?
The self-awareness.
When you open yourself-awareness and then we do
(41:37):
that with STEAM Remember the Mis mentalizing.
So with the mentalizing, you'reable to have empathy for your
experience.
You're able to have compassionfor your experience.
Now you have compassionateself-awareness, yeah, and with
compassionate self-awareness youcan be more supportive and
caring and nurturing growth, asopposed to being harsh with your
(41:59):
self-awareness yeah.
So compassionate self-awarenessis key in my mind and you get
there with with becoming moreself-aware, and STEAM helps with
that.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, 100%.
And, like you mentioned,empathy, right, right, hey, you
are experiencing this because ofthis, and so it's okay, give
yourself grace through it, buthere's how we can you know, not
even, but and here's how to growfrom it, right, this is why you
feel this way, this is why youhave these thoughts, these
(42:33):
sensations, these emotions, andthis is how we can grow from it.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
And very importantly, I talk about compassionate
self-awareness, becauseeverything we see in the world
we interpret through ourselves,so that's the place we start is
getting clear within ourselves,but really compassionate other
awareness, so that if you canreally understand where other
people are coming from, haveempathy, have compassion, have
forgiveness If you can do thatwith others, then your
relationships will also flourish.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
And with that then you have, like this, fuller life
.
And this is a little kind ofoff script or off to the side,
but I, through all these years,what I firmly believe is that
it's all about connection, andwhether it's within ourselves,
in our relationship.
I think a lot of religion it'sabout connection.
What do people believe God isright?
(43:24):
It's this bigger connection.
So there's something aboutconnecting on a full, whole,
open level.
I think that's probably apretty damn good definition of
kind of love, right?
Really seeing someone acceptingthem openheartedly.
That's it.
(43:45):
That's to me any sense ofwellness on whatever level,
where it stems or comes from.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah.
So talking about connection,how, feeling connected, Right,
and I've even heard this beforeit's like being more connected
with yourself, being moreconnected with others.
I think in today's world wetalk about connection, how we?
We say that we're moreconnected than ever because we
have, you know, technology, wehave social media, but in a way
(44:17):
it's.
It's not as connected as we seein studies, where folks are
more lonely or probably thanever With connection.
What do you think the key toconnection is?
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think we have to be careful how we define it.
So it's interesting you and Iare talking and we see each
other, so we are connected onthis visual level.
There's been a couple of timesI'm aware that you've responded
to the way that I have like myfacial expressions or something
like that, and people who arelistening don't have that.
Now they're connected in.
Hi everybody, People who arelistening don't have that Now
they're connected in.
Yeah, hi, everybody we'reconnected in, but one they're
(44:51):
not talking with us.
Yeah, also, they're not seeingus.
So there's levels of connection.
And then you know I am enjoyingthis conversation.
But I imagine this would bedifferent if I had known you for
the last five years.
It would be a deeper level ofconnection, right.
So we let people in, hopefullydeeper level of connection,
right.
So we let people in, hopefullyeverybody listening.
You don't let everybody intotally deeply in your first
conversation, like not healthy.
(45:12):
So there's a levels ofconnection right, and to me that
the connection that people arefeeling it's very helpful.
Worldwide we are connectingmore, but on a certain level and
we're losing sometimes thedeeper connections If people are
(45:35):
only connecting on those moresuperficial levels or the more
superficial the level yes, youcould have more connections.
It's like on Facebook you can500 friends, but let's face it,
you don't really have 500friends or a thousand friends or
whatever it is.
Some people feel good like, oh,I have this many friends, but
if you just had one good friend,like somebody who really knows
you and you know them and you'regood with each other, that
means so much more On asuperficial level you could say
(45:57):
well, I'm connected with oneperson and you're connected with
500 people.
You cannot equate those two.
Yeah, you can't, and I thinkthat's a big struggle we have
Some of.
It is just the definition ofconnection, cause if you break
it down now, it's a totallydifferent ball game.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, it's so different.
It's so different and I thinkeven building relationship and
having and I guess, evenunderstanding people, accepting
people and now I'm starting torealize, is you kind of have the
formula of of accepting, beinga accepting of people for who
they are and being aware of whothey are same with ourselves?
(46:36):
How can we be a little bit moreconnected with ourselves and
develop a positive relationshipwith ourselves?
Is through awareness, throughaccepting who we are, and, um, I
think it's so much to learnfrom that to build a better
relationship with ourselves andothers, and when we do that we
(46:57):
feel really good about the lifethat we're living.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Right, and what's another piece that's beautiful
about this is if you can reallyget to know other people and
accept them.
You don't have to agree withthem, you don't even have to
like them.
You can feel like, oh my God, Ireally don't like what they're
doing.
But if you can come to a placewhere you had have some
compassionate awareness for them, then you can have a better way
(47:23):
of relating Again.
It doesn't mean you have toaccept them into your life as a
part of your every day, but youdon't carry so much anger and
hostility and you have the bestpossible relationship you can
with those other people whomight be in your life but very
different and people you don'twant to let in.
But you don't have to behostile toward them.
(47:44):
And I think there's a lot ofthat that's missing in this
world.
There's this whole thing offlipping to the other.
You're othering others, right?
People talk about it that way,and I'm talking about reversing
that and not othering others,but like making them more,
really connecting more with themso that you can have a civil
(48:04):
and even maybe deep conversationor relationship or at least
greater acceptance.
If we could do more of that inthe world, this world would look
very, very different 100percent.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
100 percent, it definitely will.
It definitely will.
So last question I want to askyou is bouncing back right and I
know we've been focusing onyour second book Bouncing Back
from Rejection, right, Right,what made you go with that?
(48:35):
Bouncing back from actuallybuilding resilience after
getting rejected versus hey, howcan you be okay with rejection
before?
Right, it's called bouncingback, Right.
What made you go, I guess, withthat angle as opposed to how to
(48:56):
not be afraid of rejection?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Right.
There's probably differentanswers to that.
One is my first book wasInsecure Love, so we talked
about the insecurity.
And now another facet is if youare struggling with having been
rejected, how do you bounceback?
But it's really, it's adifferent way of looking at how
do you develop greater sense ofsecurity in yourself and
relationships?
(49:19):
And, like you said, we allstruggle with rejection.
It's not like how to not berejected.
In fact you don't want to gothrough life not being rejected
Because you pretty much wouldnever leave your house and not
get on the computer or anythingelse, because that would be, you
know, so you can not berejected.
So it's more about how, whenyou are rejected, you can handle
(49:41):
that in a healthier way.
And the book really focuses onwhen people kind of
self-identify that rejection isa big struggle for them.
So then it speaks to thosepeople like how can you bounce
back from it?
I just I think that that's animportant way to think.
It's also a shift in mindset,right.
(50:02):
Rather than just like they feeltotally knocked down, it's like
, okay, but how do you come back?
There's a and I think it's likea chinese or japanese proverb
fall down six times, get upseven.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
you know how do you get back up same same concept
you know, improving yourrelationship with rejection
almost is.
It's almost, as if, um, itbecomes easier to bounce back
from it.
It becomes you become.
You see it in a different light.
You know you're not afraid ofit.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
People who struggle a lot.
They want to not get knockeddown.
Often we go wait, cause ifyou're already hurting so much,
you're like how can I just notget knocked down Cause I can't
take it anymore?
And to really to reframe that,it's like it's not about not
getting knocked down.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
It's about being able to, when you are knocked down,
getting back up, yeah, and notletting the feelings of
rejection stop you from exactlyliving life.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Exactly I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Leslie, where can people find you Right To
continue to follow your work?
Right Um to continue to followyour work and then also to um
you?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
you have other work um that you've done, um, that I
would love for you to kind ofshare and, um, let people know
about.
Sure, absolutely, thanks.
Thanks for asking that.
Um, you know, the truth is I ama therapist who just wanted to
find different ways of gettingstuff out there.
So I'm a therapist and I liketo write.
(51:31):
So, as you pointed out in thebeginning, I have my YouTube
channel, the three, like three,four minute videos on different
topics and it's all swirlingaround the stuff we've been
talking about in relationships.
So that's a great way forpeople to just get little bite
size information and then youcan, you know, chew on that for
a bit.
And the videos are.
(51:51):
Most of them, if you look inthe descriptions are connected
to articles I've written.
So if you like the video, youcan like go to the article.
So there's great stuff therewith that, and at this point, I
have a blog on psychology todaycalled Making Change.
I have a blog on psychologytoday called making change.
I have a blog on my websitecalled authentically you.
(52:12):
So you can, you know, check outthe the articles there, and you
can certainly subscribe to mynewsletter where I give
information about the latest law, the latest blog article or the
latest video or like thepodcast, like this will be on
the newsletter, those kinds ofthings, and you just go to my
website and you can sign up.
(52:35):
And my website, just so peopleknow, is drbeckerphelpscom.
That's D-R-B-E-C-K-E-R, hyphen,p-h-e-l-p-scom, so you can sign
up there.
Just poke around.
I have information oncompassionate self-awareness and
(52:55):
there was some other thing, butoh, I know there's also on the
books pages.
If you go to each books pagethere's a download so you can
download the material, some ofthe materials from each book and
they're just free, and sothings like there's a.
I want to bring this up beforewe some of the materials from
each book and they're just free,and so things like there's a.
I want to bring this up before.
We were talking about emotions.
I have an emotions list, which Ithink is great.
It's really helped a lot ofpeople and I have there's
(53:19):
categories of emotion, so it'dbe like happy, afraid, those
kinds of things, and then undereach category is like a whole
bunch of words that you can useand it's amazing when you learn
more emotions or to be able toarticulate more emotions, it
makes your self-understanding somuch richer.
It's like imagine drawing apicture with three colors or
(53:43):
having the whole box of crayons.
It's so much fuller, right.
So that's what we want to do,is help you be so much more
aware.
So go in.
I think my first book isInsecure in Love.
There's a word list there,bouncing Back from Rejection.
You'll know Bouncing Back fromRejection.
And then my most recent bookthat just came out was the
(54:03):
Insecure in Love workbook which,to be honest, is a combination
of the first book, insecure inLove, and the second book,
bouncing Back from Rejection,which introduced the concept of
STEAM.
All three of them offer theemotions list.
They're slightly different.
Each time I'm like, oh, let mechange this or that, essentially
the same, but if your listenersgo on there and print that out,
(54:26):
that by itself can be like agame changer in people's lives.
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, I'll definitely link all of those links to the
show notes.
But yeah, you have some amazingeven just reading bouncing back
from rejection.
You have some amazing exercisesto really help folks,
especially in those especiallyin those, you know, building
that relationship withthemselves, with self-acceptance
(54:53):
, and then you knowself-compassion.
You have a lot of differentexercises that people can
journal about, really greatjournal prompts that you have
for folks.
And so I think you know it'ssome amazing work that you're
doing and this is big.
I think this is the work.
(55:14):
When people say the work, wedon't know what that means.
Right, this is the work thatpeople can can start with and
start to take a look at and getyou know a better relationship
with themselves and betterrelationship with others.
And I just knew I had to talkto you, I had to reach out to
you and I appreciate you takingthe time to add value not only
(55:36):
to me but to my audience as well.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
So thank you, dr Litton.
Thank you so much and, yeah,thanks for having me on 100%.
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