January 27, 2025 • 53 mins
This episode focuses on redefining identity beyond societal labels and how habits shape our perceptions and experiences. By understanding stress and fear as malleable constructs, listeners are inspired to embrace their core values and live aligned with who they want to be.
• Embracing identity through values, not labels
• The impact of daily habits on self-perception
• Understanding neuroplasticity and habit formation
• Redefining pressure and stress as perceptions
• The importance of reframing challenges as opportunities
• Utilizing mantras to foster resilience and adaptability
• Exploring fear as a tool for assessment and engagement
• Building confidence through experience and self-awareness
• Motivation rooted in internal values rather than external rewards
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Playing Injured.
I'm pumped for today's episode.
We have Brian Hyatt, who is akeynote speaker, host, author,
performance and leadershipconsultant and stuntman and
stunt coordinator, Brian, howare we doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm doing fantastic.
Thanks for having me on.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love it, so I always love starting a podcast
with you.
Know who is Brian and how doeshe spend his time today.
I've obviously put titles onyou, but I would love to hear
from you, like, who are you andyou know, how does life look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You know who I am, is it's.
It's a tough question and itchanges day to day.
I really like to try to thinkof.
I got asked that question theother day and I really kind of
got thrown, and so I've put somethought into it since then and
what I've come up with is youknow, I try to define myself in
terms of what I want to embodyand what I want to bring each
(01:06):
day, rather than what I want todo or what my job is or what
label it, because the labelshave just never fit, like you
said.
I mean, there are so many anauthor and stuntman and
university faculty member, andyou know all the things and, and
so it really is a stupid thingto try to get into with people
like what do you do for a living?
(01:26):
Like I don't, you know, I justtry to bring the best of who I
am each day, in whicheverenvironment and climate.
I happen to be able to interactIn this case it's a podcast
with you and I'm grateful forthe opportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, 100%.
I'm glad you mentioned that.
I've jumped back into AtomicHabits and one of the things
that stuck out to me this timewhen reading it is about
identity and how our identity ispretty much how we keep up with
our habits, and I've beentrying to break my life down to
(02:02):
some degree in incrementalpieces of what helps me feel
like I'm having progress on adaily basis, and it's my small
habits and being disciplined init and understanding, hey, who
you know, what's the person Iwant to be tomorrow, today,
whatever the case may be, andhow can I embody that through my
(02:27):
habits on a daily basis?
What do your habits look like,kind of on a daily basis?
That's interesting that you saythat.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's a great book.
James Clear does a wonderfuljob.
It's really well structured.
It's a terrific book.
I've listened to him on somepodcasts too.
He does a great job ofexplaining it book.
I've listened to him on somepodcasts too.
He does a great job ofexplaining it.
I don't know that I necessarilyagree wholeheartedly with the
identity thing, because I thinkthat we can pigeonhole ourselves
and we can limit ourselves insome way when we do that.
(02:56):
For example, if I woke up thismorning and said you know what
I'm a stuntman?
What do I need to be to be astuntman?
Who is a stuntman?
What is Brian as a stuntman?
What are the habits thatstuntman Brian needs to bring?
Well, those habits might bevery different from what author
Brian needs to bring, or keynotespeaker Brian needs to bring,
or parent Brian needs to bring,and so we all wear so many
(03:17):
different hats and we can labelourselves in so many different
ways that it almost becomescounterproductive, because which
hat are we supposed to wear?
Do we blend the hats and if so,what do we call that?
So that's why I say you know, Itry to bring who I want to be.
So, for example, today I wantto be patient Brian.
So what does patient Brian looklike?
(03:39):
You know well, when he'ssitting in traffic he's
breathing and he's focused on,maybe, a certain problem or
issue that he's having.
Or he's having a conversationwith somebody about work, I
don't know, you know whateverthose habits are.
Or I want to be healthy, brian,today.
All right, what does that looklike?
Well, stop getting the candy.
(04:00):
I'm a Sour Patch Kids likejunkie.
Stop eating the Sour Patch Kidsand grab a piece of celery or
something.
You know there are differentways to think about that
identity piece and I think thatby limiting ourselves, by
labeling us in that way I don'tknow, you know, that's how I
kind of approach it.
I really do try to think of howdo I want to be rather than who
(04:23):
do I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So I've never heard that perspective, because we do
have various different versionsof who we are right.
Like you mentioned, you gotstuntman Brian.
That Brian is probably a littlebit more wild than the author,
brian right, or the Brian as afather, and so it's more of the
attributes of how do you want tobe and that's how you can carry
(04:48):
yourself through all thevarious different versions of
who you are on a day-to-daybasis.
It's basically what it is.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, I do want to be patient, and I brought that up
intentionally because I strugglewith that.
That is a thing of how I wantto be.
I want to be patient, I want tobe compassionate, I want to be
empathetic, I want to becommitted, I want to be engaged.
These are ways that I want tobe, the way that I want to
(05:18):
approach life, and it doesn'tmatter which activity I'm in or
which goal I'm pursuing.
If I'm embodying those valuesand those attributes, then I
think that I'm moving myselfforward in a productive way.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I love it because now it makes me go back and rethink
okay, what attributes do I wantto bring and how does it all
come together?
Do you have mantras like amantra?
Right?
I feel like folks, especiallyin the new year right, that's
what this makes me think about.
Is mantras right?
People are like, hey, this ishow I want to approach this year
(05:54):
.
It might be authenticity, right, it might be something of that
nature.
Do you think those help folksin their day to day?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
You know, I think that they can, if we can, if we
can come back to the atomichabits, if we can make them
habit and it's interesting tothink about thinking as a habit,
but it's, but it's.
This is an important thing forpeople to understand is that
habits are useful because weengage and we think about them
as behaviors.
So let's say, you know, goingto the gym, exercising, eating
(06:27):
healthily, these are behaviorsand the more often we engage in
them, the easier they become.
And the reason for that, on aneurological level, is because
of something calledneuroplasticity and that is our
brain's ability to rewire itselfbased on the connections it
makes most often.
It makes the connections thatit makes most often more
(06:47):
efficient.
So, you know, just raising myarm if I raise my arm over and
over again, well then, that'sjust connections among neurons
that's allowing that to happen.
Well, if I do that enough times, my brain says, all right, well
, this guy clearly likes raisinghis arm.
Let's figure out how to makethat more efficient and easier
for him.
And that's what happens.
We call it muscle memory, butit's not really muscle memory,
(07:09):
it's brain memory.
It's retraining our brains.
It's rewiring our brainsliterally to make these things
easier from a behavioralstandpoint.
But the thing about it is isthat everything is the result of
neuronal connections.
So how I perceive situations,whether it be optimistically or
pessimistically, that's a habit,that's a thinking style, that's
(07:32):
something I can control andit's the result of connections
in my brain and engaging,embodying, patience.
These are all like ourattitudes, the way of thinking,
our way of perceiving andexplaining and understanding the
worlds around us, the thingsthat we prioritize and put our
attention on.
Those are all habits and wedon't think of habits in that
(07:56):
way, but they are and they'rehabits for the exact same reason
that behavioral habits areBecause we're doing them.
So often.
Our brains are rewiringthemselves to make those ways of
seeing things and understandingthings easier.
So when we want to shift thoseways of being like we were just
talking about, we can do thatand we have to approach it in
the exact same way as any otherhabit we're trying to either
(08:19):
create or break.
We need to have that happenover and over, and at the
beginning it's hard.
We have to intentionally bringthat stuff to mind.
So those mantras that you'retalking about is a great way to
remind us of how I want to be.
So, for example, you asked if Ihad one, one that I tried to
use last year and I forgot, andso it wasn't really as helpful
(08:41):
as it probably could have been,and I've tried to adopt it again
this year is ride the Tao.
The Tao spelled T-A-O.
So from Taoism and withoutgoing into a whole, you know,
spiritual whatever about Taoism,the Tao is essentially
everything.
Everything is connected and theTao just is.
It just is and it's continuallyshifting.
(09:03):
It just is all things and how,the whole complete thing.
And Ride the Dow for me, justreminds me to let go and just
flow through life rather than totry to hold on so tightly to
things that I think I want, Ithink I know the right way, I
believe that my thing is the wayto go.
(09:24):
Well, you know what?
Sometimes life has a differentway.
Sometimes the Dow has adifferent flow to it, has a
different way of moving me, andI need to be okay with that.
So it doesn't mean just gettingbattered around by the winds
and getting flopped aroundwherever.
It just means, you know, ridethe wave, just like a surfer,
would you know, you can'tcontrol the wave, but you can
certainly ride the wave, andthat's how I think about the Tao
(09:45):
, so ride.
The Tao is an attitudinalapproach.
It's a mantra that reminds meto not hang on so tightly, to
just let go a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I love man because I've been practicing
that, the Taoism.
I got really big into that, Iwould say, maybe about five, six
years ago, listening to WayneDyer and things of that nature,
and that was one that reallystuck to me.
(10:20):
Because control I want, I feellike I need control of a
situation, right, which causesstress, which causes anxiousness
, and a lot of times, a lot ofthe stress and anxiousness was
all for nothing, right, thesituations ended up being out of
(10:42):
my control anyway.
The situations ended up beingout of my control anyway, um,
and the things that I did clingto or wanted to have control
over, um, definitely didn't gomy way, Right, um.
And then I started to find, whenI kind of just let things flow
and I was detached from outcomes, things started to just go
(11:04):
better for me, right, I was ableto approach situations as my
best self, right.
And so now that you mention it,right, you talk about just the
flow of life, and I know one ofthe things you mentioned is like
flow in fire.
Is it flow in the fire?
(11:25):
Right, flow flow under fire.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, flow under fire .
Fire Right.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How can folks start to let let go and have more flow
in life, especially when thingsare under fire, when it is
pressure, when it is stress, um,um.
How can?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
folks handle that.
Well, it's interesting that youworded it the way that you did.
It's one of the reasons why Ihave the programs that I do.
So the way you just said is howcan folks let go under pressure
, under stress?
Well, my answer would be well,let's not experience the stress
and pressure in the first place.
Let's take a look at that, youknow, because one of the things
that I enjoy doing ischallenging the status quo quo
(12:07):
assumptions that people make andthat our culture makes and that
society makes and that we justassume is just how it is.
And one of the things that Ihear a lot is, you know, we have
to learn how to perform well inpressure situations, or perform
well under pressure, and thatassumes that pressure is
inevitable, that we mustexperience pressure in certain
(12:29):
conditions.
And I can just tell you, afterthree decades of stunts, as I
think back on those experiences,I don't think that's true, and
I'm not alone in that.
This is a concept that is at theheart of cognitive psychology,
cognitive theory.
It's something Shakespeare knewin Hamlet Nothing is either
(12:49):
good or bad, but thinking makesit so.
It's something that the Stoicphilosophers understood
Epictetus, marcus Aurelius,2,000 years ago when they said,
it's not events that determinewhat we do and how we feel, it's
how we perceive those events,it's how we think about those
events.
That's what determines what wefeel and what we do.
And so this idea of a pressuresituation assumes that there are
(13:13):
certain situations out therethat will inevitably bring
pressure, and I don't think thatthat's right.
I think that there aresituations, and in those
situations we may experiencepressure, but the pressure is
not inevitably tied to thesituation.
It's up to us, it's how weperceive things, and stress is
the same way.
So stress and this is anotherpoint too is that people will
(13:36):
often conflate stress andpressure, meaning that they tend
to use those wordsinterchangeably, and I don't
think they're the same thing.
I think that they are differentthings and I think that they're
different in important ways.
So when we talk about stress, Ithink stress is best understood
.
For any I don't know psychotheory geeks like myself, it
(13:56):
comes from the transactionalmodel of stress that a guy named
Lazarus and Folkman it's not aguy, it's two guys, but Lazarus
and Folkman put this theorytogether transactional model of
stress and what it says is thatstress is the result of two
things.
One, how we perceive thesituation.
If we perceive the situation asa threat, that's setting
(14:18):
conditions for stress.
And the second part, and thisis critical do we believe that
we have the necessary resourcesto handle the situation
effectively?
If we do believe that we havethose resources, then stress is
typically lower.
If we don't think we have theresources, then stress tends to
be high.
So when we experience a lot ofstress, what's typically going
(14:40):
on is number one we're in athreat, we're in a situation
we're perceiving as a threat andwe don't think we can handle it
.
We don't think we can deal withit.
That's where stress comes from.
So it's a situational thing.
It's in this circumstance, inthis place right now, do I feel
like I might be harmed and if so, do I have what it takes to
(15:01):
deal with it?
Pressure, on the other hand,that comes from a focus on
consequences, not even theoutcomes success or failure, or
getting what we want.
It's about the consequences ofthose outcomes.
So if I fail, then this reallybad thing will happen and my
life will turn around in thisreally bad way that I don't
really want.
It's that focus on theconsequence.
(15:23):
And it works the other way tooand this is something a lot of
people don't talk about eitheris if it goes right, then my
life's going to explode for thegood in all these wonderful ways
.
And if I hit this, if I get itright, if I do it well, man, my
ticket's punched, I'm on thefast track to all kinds of
(15:43):
goodness.
Well, that creates pressure too,if that's where our minds are
in a performance environment.
So the whole key is, if we'rein a situation that matters to
us, high stakes environments iswhat I call them high stakes
situations, situations where theconsequences do matter to us,
and this isn't just on a stageor in front of a camera or on a
(16:04):
field.
This is in life.
In life, every day, weencounter circumstances where
the consequences matter to us.
It might be a conversation witha spouse, or how we deal with
our kids, or it could be somemeeting that we're supposed to
lead at work.
These are things that happenall the time and we care about
how they come out.
(16:24):
So it's a high stakesenvironment for us and in those
high stakes environments, if ourattention is on those possible
potential consequences thatmight end up happening, if this
outcome occurs, then that'swhere pressure comes from, and I
emphasized all those words tohighlight this fact.
(16:46):
When we're experiencing pressure, number one our attention's in
the future and number two it'son stuff that's not real.
And those two things gotogether because the future
hasn't.
It's not real.
There are certain things thatare maybe more probable than
others in the future, givencircumstances being how they are
(17:06):
, but nothing's real yet.
Nothing's been realized.
We're just imagining thesethings.
They're not actual.
So we're creating this pressurein our minds by putting our
attention on potentialconsequences that we're
imagining.
So that's where stress andpressure come from.
And and so, again, my argumentis that there is no such thing
(17:29):
as a high stress or highpressure situation.
There are just situations, andthat we are better off in those
situations, not experiencingstress or pressure.
Because you know I mean here.
Well, here's why is if I'm notexperiencing stress, then that
means I'm not experiencing thatsituation as a potential threat.
(17:49):
How might I look at itotherwise?
Well, I could look at it as anopportunity, as a chance to move
forward as a chance to improve.
If I'm not experiencing pressure, what it means is my attention
is not on these consequences,either good or bad.
It's in the moment, it's rightnow, it's on the task-relevant
(18:10):
things, the things that I needto do in order to set conditions
for that outcome.
I want to manifest and thisisn't even a hard argument to
make to people Truly everybodylistening has been in a
situation, whether it be cookinga meal or again leading a
meeting or having a conversationwith somebody you care about
(18:31):
where we've been in the zone,we've been in flow.
Whatever you want to call it, Icall it my bubble, like you've
been in the place where theoutside world, anything that's
not relevant to what's going on,just disappears.
It's not there, you're notattending to it.
What's real and what's tangibleis just in the moment.
We've all been in that placewhere things are just happening,
(18:52):
where our movements are justoccurring, where everything is
just going the way it's supposedto, of its own accord, and in
that moment there is no stress,there is no pressure.
If you ask anybody to describewhat is it like to be in the
zone, what is it like to be inflow, what is it like to be
fully present in a moment.
While you're engaged in anyactivity, you will not hear the
(19:13):
word stressful or pressure.
It's just not going to come upfor that present moment
awareness, that present momentengagement to happen.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Because if we do, by definition we're going to
eliminate stress and pressureand we're going to create
conditions where we can be atour best.
I love that I was sitting whenyou talked about.
That is all in our mind, right?
I thought about this quote.
(19:41):
We suffer more in imaginationthan in reality, and I can't
remember who is the philosopher.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Seneca, one of the stoic philosophers.
Yeah, that's Seneca, one of thestoics.
That was a quote that stuckwith me because we do, right, we
a lot of this stuff is in ourmind, in our imagination, right
and just.
I know for me, right,especially when it came to
pressure as an athlete, pressureeven in doing and doing
different podcasts.
(20:13):
It's so many things I'mthinking about of.
If this goes wrong, I'm goingto get laughed at.
If this goes wrong, you know,whatever the case may be, I'm
going to face some type ofconsequence.
Whatever the case may be, I'mgoing to face some type of
consequence.
But if this goes right, man,you know, I get all this
validation, things that willmake me look good, feel better,
(20:35):
rather than just being in themoment and saying, hey, I just
really love, you know, the gameof basketball, I just really
love whatever the craft is thatyou're doing, just being
immersed in the craft of it andseeing it as an opportunity to
grow and get better.
Now you talked about stress andseeing it as a threat, right?
(20:58):
Do you ever reframe thesethreats as like, hey, it's not a
big deal, right?
Actually, this is not a bigdeal.
This is not a threat.
This is not a real threat,right?
Do you ever refrain and kind ofmake these situations less of a
threat?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean I do, and I certainly encourage other people
to do that too, and that comesfrom just a really accurate
assessment of what's going on.
But I don't lean on that as theonly way of handling the
situation because you know what,sometimes the threat is real
and I've been in thosesituations.
I've been in situations whereif I do it wrong, I or somebody
(21:38):
I'm working with may not go home.
I mean I've been in thatsituation and I've been there
regularly and in that situationyou can't just tell somebody
look the consequence, it's notreally that big a deal, it's
really truly it's not that bad.
You know you can't do thatbecause it's not true, but at
the same time a lot of thethings.
So two things.
One is a lot of the times thatthe quote unquote threats that
(22:02):
we face they're only threatsbecause we make them that way,
we blow them up in ways, we blowthe imagined consequences up in
ways that probably theyshouldn't be blown up.
Like you mentioned, otherpeople might think well, so what
?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
difference does it make?
You know, I mean truly what?
First of all, I'm probablywrong, because other people
aren't thinking about me.
They're thinking aboutthemselves.
But even if they do happen tobe thinking about me, are they
really going to think about meas badly as I'm imagining that
they will, or for as long asthey will, or that those
thoughts will have the impact onmy life that I think it will?
Probably not.
(22:38):
So there are certainly ways towalk back, some of the ways that
some of the threats that wecreate in our minds and just
recognize the probably the morehonest answer is just this
really isn't as bad as what I'mmaking it out to be, if it's
even going to happen at all.
Again, we're just imaginingstuff that may happen in the
future.
But you know, the second pieceof that is it is the case for
(23:02):
some people some of the timethat the consequences are no
kidding important and that itreally is a situation where you
can be harmed, and so if youlook at that situation and try
to minimize that, it comes offas inauthentic.
So you have to approach it alittle bit differently, and
that's the way that you werejust talking about, which is how
(23:25):
is this an opportunity, whetherI succeed or fail, or whatever
this situation is.
How is this a chance for me togrow, to improve and when the
consequences of failure arereally high, you have to.
It's even more important, Iwould say, to lean into that.
So how is this a chance for me?
(23:45):
So, for example, I was workingon this TV show I don't know, it
was maybe a month or so ago.
It's called the Cleaning Lady.
It's a Fox TV show.
I was assassin number one.
You love when they put thenumbers after your name.
You know you're important then.
So I was assassin number one onthis thing.
And I'm looking for somebody ona sailboat that's up on a
trailer and I'm walking aroundand all of a sudden he attacks
(24:07):
me.
There's a little fight that wedo on top of the boat and he
knocks me off and I fall off theboat.
It's about 10 feet down to apicnic table.
I bounce off the picnic tableand go to the ground.
There's no mats, there's nopads.
You just fall off the boat,bounce off the picnic table, go
to the ground.
I knew that was going to hurtand I knew that there was
significant potential for injuryif I screwed it up.
So if somebody were to come tome and say, brian, the
(24:29):
consequences I mean, if youscrew this up, it's really not
going to be that bad I mean I'dhave told them they were crazy
and they need to climb up on theboat, go, fall off and bounce
off the picnic table.
So that would have beeninauthentic, it wouldn't have
been a way I could handle it,but a way that I did handle it
to reduce that perception ofthreat was, man, what an amazing
opportunity I have right now todemonstrate some of the skills
(24:51):
that I have, and now that I'm 51too, another way that I look at
it is I don't know how manymore of these chances I'm going
to get.
I don't know how many moreshows I'm going to work on, and
so each one is precious to me.
And I have the opportunity togo do this thing that I love for
a friend of mine who's thestunt coordinator and who I've
known for two and a half decades, who's a tremendous friend of
mine, and in front of thedirector was Lou Diamond
(25:13):
Phillips, who was is also agreat guy and somebody who I
just love his work.
So that's the opportunity forme is I get this chance to do
this thing and challenge myselfin a way that most people don't
get to.
And that's something I can leaninto.
And that's an importantdistinction is, when we look at
(25:35):
something as an opportunity, wedo lean in, we approach, we go
toward, whereas if we look atsomething as a threat, we hide
from, we try to avoid andthey're very different natural
reactions.
And if we're looking to succeedin any situation and truly
anybody who's ever played sports, particularly a dangerous sport
like football, or engaged insome sort of activity like that,
(25:57):
knows as soon as you try toprotect yourself from getting
hurt, you're getting hurt youhave to commit fully and that's
just a lesson for anything.
I mean, the more fully we commit.
If we really get into and giveour full selves, engagement and
wholehearted efforts towardwhatever we're doing, we are
100% creating a better conditionfor success than if we were to
(26:17):
kind of go into it halfway ortry to go into it safely.
Is the way we try to explain itto ourselves in our minds.
Explain it to ourselves in ourminds no, you just go full out,
you commit completely.
And we're able to do that whenwe see things as opportunities,
but we are not able to do that.
When we see things as threats,it's just a natural tendency to
want to shy away from, to pullback from those things that
(26:39):
might harm us.
So, in addition to loweringstress, we're also creating
opportunities for us to be atour best in those situations by
changing our perspective.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, seeing you know I'm sitting here thinking like
do you still get scared, likeyou've done over 100 different
films, right, and doingdangerous stunts like that, do
you still feel fear, right?
Yeah, because I'm sitting hereand I'm thinking about what
(27:09):
holds us back from doing thesehard things, right.
It may for you, it may be astump for somebody, it may be a
presentation in front of you,know their whole organization,
and it's some fear there, right?
It's some self-doubt there,right?
That's what the kind of thethreat is, or what may cause
(27:32):
somebody to avoid a situation.
Is that self-doubt?
Do you still feel?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
that.
Well, that's part of it, thatcan be part of it.
Here's the thing Fear is anadaptive, helpful emotion to
experience, certainly undercertain situations.
So, for example, if we are in alegitimate threat, threatful
situation, you know, in asituation that could harm us,
fear is an incredibly valuableemotion because it helps narrow
(27:57):
our attention to that thing thatwe are that we believe might
harm us, which allows us toreally attend more fully and and
hopefully alleviate that threatif we can, or just avoid it
altogether.
I mean, that's so fear.
Fear is a helpful emotionthat's adaptive, keeps us alive.
Where fear becomes maladaptiveand counterproductive is when we
(28:20):
experience it in situationswhere the threat isn't this kind
of goes along with what we werealready talking about where the
threat isn't as real or as direas what we've made it out in
our minds, and so the fear iskeeping us from engaging when we
probably should engage.
So, for example, if I'mstanding on the edge of a
(28:41):
300-foot roof and you know I'mthinking, man, it would be kind
of fun to jump off this thingand fall, you know that would be
a really dumb thought.
So I get on the edge and thenI'm afraid, I'm afraid of
(29:09):
falling from this thing.
I'm not attached to anything.
I'm standing on the edge.
I'm afraid.
Well, you should be afraid,because that helps you pay
attention to those things thatmight put you at risk and you
get off of the edge or at leastyou take care of what you need
to to alleviate that threat.
So, do I experience fear?
Yes, and I believe that it'shelpful up to a point.
So, for example, if I'mpresented with a particular
stunt, if somebody says okay,brian, so here's what we want
you to do, I want you to.
You're going to stand righthere and the car is going to
drive at you and we're going tohit you with the car and I want
you to land somewhere over inthis area, over here, somewhere
(29:33):
over in this area, over here.
Okay, so that's a situationwhere I'm going to look at it
and I'm getting hit by a car.
Again, I know it's going tohurt.
So there's some fear there,there's a potential threat.
So the fear, what it does inthat situation is it helps me
analyze the circumstances better.
Okay, so how do I minimize thisthreat, what are some steps
that I can take to mitigate therisk, and if I can do that at a
way that brings the risk down toa level where I believe I can
(29:55):
handle it.
Again, going back to stress, Iperceive it as a threat, but do
I have the resources necessaryto deal with it?
If I've been able to mitigatethe risk to a point where I
believe my resources are capableof handling the situation
effectively, believe myresources are capable of
handling the situationeffectively, then I can move
forward, then I can engage fully, then I can act in a way that
(30:20):
will be likely to be successful.
So the fear in that situationjust helps me evaluate the
circumstances.
And if the evaluation goes theother way, if it's no man, you
know what, like the car, the wayyou're talking about this car
going, it's too fast, or the waythe car is built is too much,
or where you're talking aboutyou want me to land, just
because of physics it's notgoing to happen.
(30:41):
Where I'm going to land is overthere, on that spiky whatever,
and I'm going to get impaled so.
So no, I'm not going to do thisthing, going to do this thing.
So the fear allows me toanalyze the situation
effectively.
So fear is a 100% helpfulemotion when it allows us to be
honest and really assess thecircumstances accurately.
But again, sometimes that's notthe case and we allow fear to
(31:05):
take over because our threatassessment is inaccurate,
because we've assigned too muchrisk to the situation and that
can hold us back.
So what you just mentionedabout the meeting chances are,
whether you do well or don't dowell, you know the consequences
if you're experiencing fear inthat situation, whatever threat
you're you're anticipating orthat you perceive, or whatever
(31:27):
consequences that you'reassigning to doing badly,
whatever the threat is, areprobably not accurate and we
need to reassess that.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, 100%.
And then you mentioned theresources, right, do I have the
resources?
And I feel like this goes backto self-doubt too, and how do
you feel about and this kind ofgoes back to mantras right, but
the resources of, hey, I havedone this over a hundred times,
right, or I have done over ahundred podcasts, or I have
played a hundred games, or I'vedone a lot of work, right, and I
(32:01):
feel like a lot of times we cantake ourselves for granted for
things that we've overcame inour life.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, well, that's an important point because I
believe in our life.
Yeah well, that's an importantpoint because I believe, I think
that, from the reading thatI've done around this idea of
pressure and even stress, Ithink that confidence, which is
what you're describing the lackof, when you say self-doubt,
it's a lack of confidence, andconfidence is, if we're going to
go with one definition of it,it's the belief that we are
(32:31):
capable of doing whatever we'resetting out to do successfully.
And that could be an individualactivity like this one thing
that I'm getting ready to do.
I believe that I can do itsuccessfully.
So, confidence in this onemoment, or it can be confidence
overall, Just in general, whenlife presents whatever, I
believe that I'm capable ofhandling these circumstances
(32:51):
successfully.
One is called self-efficacy.
It's a situation-specific typeof a confidence.
The other is generalizedself-efficacy, which is just a
broader, collective confidenceabout ourself.
And there are four differentways that confidence, or four
different things that affect ourlevels of confidence.
And one is what you just said,and it's a wonderful thing to
(33:13):
lean on is I've done this before.
Yeah, I've been in thesecircumstances before and maybe,
if, even if I haven't been inthis particular situation before
, I've been in situations likeit.
So, for example, you know maybeI haven't you know had to stand
up in front of 300 people andgive a presentation, but I've
certainly talked in front ofpeople when you know, had to
(33:35):
stand up in front of 300 peopleand give a presentation, but
I've certainly talked in frontof people when you know and had
everybody's eyes turned to meand I've had to make sense out
of information when you know andtry to explain it to a lot of
people all at once.
I've done that and it went fine.
So we can generalize from otherareas in that situation.
So that's an incrediblypowerful way to help boost our
confidence.
The other three ways arevicarious experience, meaning I
(33:59):
can watch you be in thatsituation.
So for example, if we'representing at a conference, we
can watch the presenters beforeus and like, look man, if he
could do it, I could do it, youknow.
I mean, there's nothingdifferent between we know the
same stuff where we walk aroundat all the same time.
If, like, there it is, I'mwatching and you know.
(34:21):
Not even just that, but you canwatch what the people do.
If they're doing itsuccessfully, break it down.
What are they doing?
That's making it successful,what's happening that you know
from their standpoint, thatthey're controlling, that's
allowing that to go well, andthen you can emulate it.
You know from your own self.
The third is persuasion.
So people that we trust tellingus, hey, you know what, you can
(34:41):
do this.
And here's why I think so.
And it is it's important thatwe hear it from people that we
trust.
If we're just, I don't know,standing at the grocery store or
something, some, some randomperson taps us on the shoulders
like, hey, store or something,some random person taps us on
the shoulders like, hey, youknow what, I believe you can do
it.
All right, thanks, bud,appreciate that.
But from the people that wetrust, that really does matter
when they believe in us and theyexpress that.
And then the last thing andthis kind of goes back to that
(35:03):
fear discussion is when we're insituations that matter to us,
they're important to us, thesympathetic nervous system
activates, and there are normal,natural and predictable things
that happen physiologically.
For example, our heart ratewill increase, our breathing
rate will increase and probablybecome more shallow, our blood
(35:24):
pressure will change, our skinwill start to sweat.
So these are things that arenormal, natural and you can just
count on them happening whenyou're in a situation that
matters.
But here's the thing is thatsometimes, when that stuff
happens, we interpret it asnervous, and other times, when
it happens, we interpret it asexcited.
(35:44):
Interesting thing is that if Iwere to attach physiological
measures to you and put you in asituation that matters to you,
and all I was looking at werewhat the physiological measures
were, I couldn't tell whetheryou were excited or afraid or
nervous.
I just wouldn't know.
And so the interpretation ofthis sympathetic nervous system
(36:08):
activity contributes to thelevels of confidence.
If I interpret it as my body'sgetting myself ready, you know,
it's getting me ready for action.
My body's preparing me toengage in whatever's going on.
That's very different from mybody's reacting like this
because I'm afraid, because I'mnot ready, because I'm not
prepared for what's gettingready to happen Completely
(36:30):
different interpretation, whichwill lead to again that
difference between approach inthe first case and avoidance in
the second case, and theperception of fear in the second
case versus the perception ofexcitement in the first.
So those are different waysthat we can think about
confidence.
Another guy I just read his book.
He's an amazing author Foranybody out there who's a reader
(36:51):
.
I just read his book.
He's an amazing author foranybody out there who's a reader
.
Ian Robinson is his name.
He wrote a book called theStress Test amazingly written
book.
He wrote a book called howConfidence Works amazingly
written book.
And the way he talks aboutconfidence is can do and can
happen.
Confidence has two parts can do,can happen and you need both.
(37:12):
So number one, I need to thinkthat I can do it.
And number two, I need to thinkif I do do it, then the change
that I'm expecting will happen.
So, for example, if we talkabout being more healthy and
working out or getting in shapeor something like that, can I do
it?
I don't think so, man.
I love the Sour Patch Kids toomuch.
There's no way that I can getin shape and that I can do this
(37:37):
or, yeah, I can.
I can put the Sour Patch Kidsdown and I can grab the celery
and I can exercise.
I can do that.
But you know what?
It ain't going to make anydifference because that's not
going to make any changes to myoverall health.
Anyway.
I'm 51.
Nothing's going to change now.
I'm just wired how I am.
It's not going to make adifference.
So whatever.
So the confidence requires both.
We have to believe that we cando and we have to believe that
(38:03):
what we're doing actually willresult in the changes that we're
trying to bring about.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, so it's confidence in me and confidence
in the plan, basically, or theprocess, right?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
If you don't have, the outcome will be what we
wanted to do.
Yeah, exactly, if I go back toschool and get a degree, then
I'm setting myself up for bettersuccess and opening up more
opportunities in terms of thejob market.
Can I go back to school and geta degree?
I don't think so.
Man, reading is hard.
I've never been able to write.
(38:35):
I can't keep my attention whereit needs to be.
I just I can't even drive there.
I can't, like, I can't do it.
That's a lack of confidence.
But yeah, I could do it.
I could go to school, I couldread the degree, I can put it on
my wall.
But that ain't going to doanything to affect any kind of
job output.
Nobody cares about degreesanymore, and the things that I'm
interested in don't requiredegrees anyway.
(38:56):
So can it happen?
You know this whole jobopportunity transformation, no,
so again, it requires both parts.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, I love that.
What about folks avoidanceright, Avoiding doing the hard
things what happens?
What happens when we avoiddoing the uncomfortable things,
when we do face these situations, right, yeah, what happens?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Well, it depends on the person.
I mean, that can happen for anynumber of reasons.
One we've talked about, whichis fear, another might just be.
I mean because now we'restarting to get into the realm
of motivation, and that may justbe.
If we are confident that we cando what we're setting out to do
, we tend to be more motivatedthan if we think, no, I don't
(39:56):
even think I can do it, so whytry?
So motivation is tied toconfidence in that way.
But the other two things thataffect levels of confidence are
the extent to which we careabout the behavior, to which you
know, the extent to which itmatters to us.
It's important to us for somereason.
Now, there are a lot of reasonswhy it might be important to us
, and those reasons really domatter, which we can get into
(40:18):
later.
The source of motivation isimportant, but as far as levels
of motivation, it has to beimportant to us for some reason.
So if we don't care about it,again, we're not going to be
motivated to engage in it.
But if, for some reason, it'simportant to us, well then we're
(40:39):
more likely to be motivated.
And the third is the benefithas to outweigh the cost of
engaging in the behavior.
So I can believe I can do thebehavior and I can even care
about it.
I can think it's important, butI can also, at the same time,
believe that, even if I do it,like the benefit associated with
doing this thing just doesn'toutweigh the cost.
And when I say cost I mean itcould be a literal cost of money
, like going back to school, butit could be a cost of time or
(41:01):
energy or social capital.
This thing is going to take meaway from my friends.
I'm not going to loserelationships or whatever.
So, whatever the costs arethere are a lot of them but at
the bottom line is, if thebenefits that we perceive
outweigh the costs, then we'regoing to be more motivated than
if the costs outweigh thebenefits.
And again, this is perceived.
So all of this this is theinteresting thing All of this
(41:23):
comes down to us as people andhow we see the situation.
Nobody can force us to bemotivated, nobody can force us
to be confident.
It is our belief that we arecapable of doing what we're
setting out to do.
It doesn't matter whether youtell me that I'm capable of
doing what I'm setting out to do.
Even if I trust you.
That still doesn't guaranteethat when you tell me no, I'm
(41:46):
telling you, brian, you can dothis, that I'll believe you, and
nobody can make us care aboutthings.
If I care about it, then I careabout it, and if I don't, if I
don't see any value in it, thenI don't.
That's on me.
That's my perception of thesituation and it's my math
equation in my own head aroundthe benefits and costs that's
going to determine the outcomethere.
(42:08):
Nobody can force it.
People can talk about it, theycan tell me, they can give me
information, they can try topersuade me, whatever it might
be, but they can't make me.
So anybody who says you know,how do I motivate my people, how
can I get my people motivatedand I used to get that question
all the time when I was workingwith the military how do I, how
do I motivate you?
Can't is the short answer.
You can create conditions as aleader that will help foster
(42:32):
motivation.
There are things you as aleader can do within your
environment to create a climatethat will likely boost
motivation and sustain it overtime with your people.
But you can't guarantee it.
It's all in our own heads.
We create it in our own minds.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, that's so good, especially the costs and
benefits, right?
One thing, and I think evenmyself is struggling, or what I
have struggled with, is even thefear of success.
Right, I want to do this, Iwant to become this.
The cost of this, though, ismaybe less time with friends,
(43:15):
maybe less you know less my way,and having these, you know,
kind of self-sabotagingbehaviors of wanting to stay
comfortable in that environment,in that place, of wanting to,
(43:49):
you know, remain with friends,keep my life simple, keep my
life less stressed, but theseare all perceived notions.
These are all things that I'mmore than likely overthinking,
right, as opposed to reallystepping into the actual person
that I want to be right, andjust letting go and flowing.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, well, it's up to you.
You know that's the thing it'sup to all of us what you know.
What is the thing and that wasa great example, because you
know people typically will useexamples around.
The thing that popped into mymind as you were talking about
that was injury.
Yeah, when you talk aboutinjury recovery, can I go to
rehab and do this?
Sure, do I care about beinghealthy and being not, you know,
(44:34):
in pain?
Again, yeah, I do care aboutthat.
Does the cost of going intotherapy and having these people
rip my body around in weird waysthat are incredibly painful,
for hours on end, every singleday for months, does the cost of
that outweigh the benefit of myjust sitting here on my bed,
just laying here watching TV, inmaybe a little bit of pain and
maybe even, you know, a littlebit more pain, but not the pain
(44:55):
that I would be in if I went totherapy?
Well, you know, maybe, likethat cost may outweigh the
benefit in that situation,because that's just how we see
it.
And but you went the successroute, which I think is great,
because that's also a thing likein good situations, like in
what people would typically lookat as good stuff, we would
typically label success as good.
(45:15):
Even there, can you do it?
Yeah, I can achieve success.
Do I care about it?
Yeah, I want it, I see it, Isee the value of it.
There's a lot of goodness there.
Does the cost outweigh thebenefit?
Well, I don't know.
I think it might.
I think it might.
I think it might, and so themotivation might be lower.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, obviously, overtime, right, you know, you learn
to kind of grow your self-imageright, things you want for
yourself, how you see yourself,how you perceive yourself.
And, like you said, no matterhow many people tell you, hey,
you got it, go for it, you're aleader, matter how many people
(45:54):
tell you, hey, you got it, Gofor it, you're a leader, you
have everything.
It takes, it's up to you.
Like you said, it is up to youand we can end on this.
What can folks start to do?
Right, folks who want it, folkswho do care, but it seems like,
hey, maybe I don't want it thatbad, or maybe the cost of it is
not there, um, or maybe it'sdoubt.
It's a lot of different reason,that reasons that hold folks
(46:17):
back.
What do you think people canstart to do to kind of raise
their self-image, the smallthings on a daily basis, to
start to, um, gain moreconfidence in themselves?
That isn't, um, you know,unnatural, it's actually earned.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, it's not fluff that we're trying to.
You know, like the rainbows andunicorns, we're trying to talk
ourselves into that we are.
Yeah, no, that doesn't work.
And so this is where that wholeI loved your play of.
You know, I've done this before, I've gone this route and most
of us have that Again.
We may have failed 10 out of 10times at whatever this thing is.
We may not have any success todraw from in this one area, but
(46:58):
when we analyze the reasons forthat failure well, I screwed up
with this.
Well, is there anothersituation where you had to
encounter or you did encounterand you overcame a situation
similar to that?
Lean on that.
Lean on that experience.
These are things that can boostthe confidence.
Watch other people Break downtheir success.
Is there something that they'redoing that you're not?
Maybe you just don't have theskills yet?
(47:19):
Watch and learn the skills andthen you get better so that the
next time you try, then you'rebetter off.
Really, analyze what people whoare good at it are doing and
when I say good at it, I don'tmean people who are good at it
are doing, and and when I saygood at it, I don't mean like if
I were to go watch, um, uh, Idon't know.
Uh, you know, patrick, my homesplay quarterback and and I'm
(47:42):
saying you know what, I think Iwant to go play quarterback too.
Like you know, let me go watchPatrick Mahomes.
That may not be the right modelfor me, because I'm 51 and I've
never played quarterback.
So so, trying to emulatesomebody at the top of their
game, maybe that's not the rightanswer.
But finding another personwho's around my age, like maybe
I go out to the, to the pickupleague, wherever it is, and I
(48:04):
watched somebody who's reallyexcelling, who's doing really
well, and I watch what they'redoing and I ask them how they
train and I pay attention to theways that they prepare.
Those are probably things thatI can emulate, because they've
got a real job too during theday.
Their time isn't completelyspent at the gym and on the
field the way pro athletes are.
So what are some things I cantake away from people who are
(48:26):
fairly similar to me?
That's a great way of doing it.
Me, that's a great way of doingit.
And then you know, to be honestwith you, I just taken us right
back to the very beginning ofthis is because I mentioned
sources of motivation and thatthere are a lot of them.
Sometimes we try to draw on thewrong sources of motivation,
ones that are just too volatileand that change and just don't
hold up over time, meaning a lotof us will revert to,
(48:50):
especially if we start talkingabout habits and building habits
to rewards and punishments.
Are rewards and punishmentssources of motivation?
Absolutely.
If you say, brian, if you go 10days in a row without eating
any Sour Patch Kids, I'm goingto give you $1,000.
Well, I very much want the$1,000.
So that's some good motivationto stay away from the Sour Patch
Kids.
But as soon as you say I'm donegiving you $1,000, I'm saying,
(49:13):
all right, well, I'm donegetting rid of the Sour Patch
Kids.
And so the source of motivation,when it's a reward, it only
works when the reward is around,and the reward can't always be
around.
That's a very hard thing forpeople to put into place.
So the sources of motivationthat work over time, especially
(49:33):
when we're talking about thekind of stuff you're talking
about, are those sources ofmotivation that come from within
, not without.
It's not the threat ofsomething bad happening if we
don't do this thing.
It's not the threat ofsomething good happening.
If we do do this thing, it'snot the avoidance of shame and
guilt or negative judgment fromothers that's going to keep us
going over time in theseactivities.
(49:54):
It's stuff that comes fromwithin us.
What are our values?
What do we care about?
What are we living for?
What defines us at our core?
Those things that really, whenyou ask the question, what you
asked at the very beginning, whois Brian Haidt?
Well, let me answer that interms of the values that I want
to embody, because if I havethose values and I'm trying to
(50:17):
live those out and I connectthose values to the behaviors
that we're talking about beingmotivated to do in this behavior
, well, because of this valuethat I hold, because it's
connected in a way that'sinseparable, that's where
sustained motivation comes from.
(50:37):
That's the type of motivationthat will get us through those
rough days, those challengingdays that we all have, that we
all have.
That's the stuff that'll pullus out of those moments and keep
us moving in the productivedirections that we know we need
to go in.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
I love that being connected to your values and
connect those values to thebehaviors.
And when I'm thinking about myvalues right, I'm thinking about
how it has nothing to do withany outside opinions, any
outside events.
It's all me being present andconnecting to who I truly am and
(51:16):
just letting go of the rest.
So I love it.
Brian, where can folks find you?
Where can folks continue tokind of follow your journey?
And you know, see the greatwork that you're doing, you know
see the great work that you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
I'd say, start at the website brianheitglobalcom
B-R-I-A-N-H-I-T-E global,g-l-o-b-a-lcom, and you'll find
information about me, about someof the programs that I offer.
You can reach out to me throughthere to schedule a discovery
call.
If you have questions, if anyof the things that we've talked
about today resonate with youand you want to bring me in to
(51:51):
talk about them, either in aspeaker capacity or they're
workshops, or you want towhatever just get a hold of me
through there.
You can email me at brian atbrianheightglobalcom.
I will absolutely get back toyou.
These are tough things.
You know the things that we'vebeen talking about, the lack of
confidence, the loweredmotivation, the pressure, the
(52:14):
stress, just a sense of generaloverwhelm in situations where we
really feel like we can andshould be doing better.
Those are rough places to beand I've been there and it
sounds like you have too andit's much easier to work our way
through those when we havesomebody to hold our hand and
take us through and give us someguidance throughout, and I'd
love to be that person for you.
So, again, if anything I'vesaid resonates with you and you
(52:38):
want to learn more or just talkto somebody about it.
Please reach out.
I'd love to have theconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I love it.
Yeah, I mean, you've added somuch value and, man, I mean I
didn't even get a chance to goto your story and really
understand how you even got towhere we went a full hour of
just adding a ton of value,which I really appreciate.
Right, it was just a flow ofvalue and we just let go.
And so, brian, I definitelyappreciate you just just having
(53:08):
your heart open and just flowing.
I appreciate you Just havingyour heart open and just flowing
.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
No, I appreciate you, and if you ever want to get
back into it and have theconversation about all the stuff
you were talking about wedidn't get to have the
conversation about, I'd love tocome back.
This has been a pleasure.
I've truly enjoyed it and thankyou so much for having me on.
Appreciate it.
Welcome to another episode of Playing Injured.
I'm pumped for today's episode.
We have Brian Hyatt, who is akeynote speaker, host, author,
performance and leadershipconsultant and stuntman and
stunt coordinator, Brian, howare we doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm doing fantastic.
Thanks for having me on.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love it, so I always love starting a podcast
with you.
Know who is Brian and how doeshe spend his time today.
I've obviously put titles onyou, but I would love to hear
from you, like, who are you andyou know, how does life look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You know who I am, is it's.
It's a tough question and itchanges day to day.
I really like to try to thinkof.
I got asked that question theother day and I really kind of
got thrown, and so I've put somethought into it since then and
what I've come up with is youknow, I try to define myself in
terms of what I want to embodyand what I want to bring each
(01:06):
day, rather than what I want todo or what my job is or what
label it, because the labelshave just never fit, like you
said.
I mean, there are so many anauthor and stuntman and
university faculty member, andyou know all the things and, and
so it really is a stupid thingto try to get into with people
like what do you do for a living?
(01:26):
Like I don't, you know, I justtry to bring the best of who I
am each day, in whicheverenvironment and climate.
I happen to be able to interactIn this case it's a podcast
with you and I'm grateful forthe opportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, 100%.
I'm glad you mentioned that.
I've jumped back into AtomicHabits and one of the things
that stuck out to me this timewhen reading it is about
identity and how our identity ispretty much how we keep up with
our habits, and I've beentrying to break my life down to
(02:02):
some degree in incrementalpieces of what helps me feel
like I'm having progress on adaily basis, and it's my small
habits and being disciplined init and understanding, hey, who
you know, what's the person Iwant to be tomorrow, today,
whatever the case may be, andhow can I embody that through my
(02:27):
habits on a daily basis?
What do your habits look like,kind of on a daily basis?
That's interesting that you saythat.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's a great book.
James Clear does a wonderfuljob.
It's really well structured.
It's a terrific book.
I've listened to him on somepodcasts too.
He does a great job ofexplaining it book.
I've listened to him on somepodcasts too.
He does a great job ofexplaining it.
I don't know that I necessarilyagree wholeheartedly with the
identity thing, because I thinkthat we can pigeonhole ourselves
and we can limit ourselves insome way when we do that.
(02:56):
For example, if I woke up thismorning and said you know what
I'm a stuntman?
What do I need to be to be astuntman?
Who is a stuntman?
What is Brian as a stuntman?
What are the habits thatstuntman Brian needs to bring?
Well, those habits might bevery different from what author
Brian needs to bring, or keynotespeaker Brian needs to bring,
or parent Brian needs to bring,and so we all wear so many
(03:17):
different hats and we can labelourselves in so many different
ways that it almost becomescounterproductive, because which
hat are we supposed to wear?
Do we blend the hats and if so,what do we call that?
So that's why I say you know, Itry to bring who I want to be.
So, for example, today I wantto be patient Brian.
So what does patient Brian looklike?
(03:39):
You know well, when he'ssitting in traffic he's
breathing and he's focused on,maybe, a certain problem or
issue that he's having.
Or he's having a conversationwith somebody about work, I
don't know, you know whateverthose habits are.
Or I want to be healthy, brian,today.
All right, what does that looklike?
Well, stop getting the candy.
(04:00):
I'm a Sour Patch Kids likejunkie.
Stop eating the Sour Patch Kidsand grab a piece of celery or
something.
You know there are differentways to think about that
identity piece and I think thatby limiting ourselves, by
labeling us in that way I don'tknow, you know, that's how I
kind of approach it.
I really do try to think of howdo I want to be rather than who
(04:23):
do I want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So I've never heard that perspective, because we do
have various different versionsof who we are right.
Like you mentioned, you gotstuntman Brian.
That Brian is probably a littlebit more wild than the author,
brian right, or the Brian as afather, and so it's more of the
attributes of how do you want tobe and that's how you can carry
(04:48):
yourself through all thevarious different versions of
who you are on a day-to-daybasis.
It's basically what it is.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, I do want to be patient, and I brought that up
intentionally because I strugglewith that.
That is a thing of how I wantto be.
I want to be patient, I want tobe compassionate, I want to be
empathetic, I want to becommitted, I want to be engaged.
These are ways that I want tobe, the way that I want to
(05:18):
approach life, and it doesn'tmatter which activity I'm in or
which goal I'm pursuing.
If I'm embodying those valuesand those attributes, then I
think that I'm moving myselfforward in a productive way.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I love it because now it makes me go back and rethink
okay, what attributes do I wantto bring and how does it all
come together?
Do you have mantras like amantra?
Right?
I feel like folks, especiallyin the new year right, that's
what this makes me think about.
Is mantras right?
People are like, hey, this ishow I want to approach this year
(05:54):
.
It might be authenticity, right, it might be something of that
nature.
Do you think those help folksin their day to day?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
You know, I think that they can, if we can, if we
can come back to the atomichabits, if we can make them
habit and it's interesting tothink about thinking as a habit,
but it's, but it's.
This is an important thing forpeople to understand is that
habits are useful because weengage and we think about them
as behaviors.
So let's say, you know, goingto the gym, exercising, eating
(06:27):
healthily, these are behaviorsand the more often we engage in
them, the easier they become.
And the reason for that, on aneurological level, is because
of something calledneuroplasticity and that is our
brain's ability to rewire itselfbased on the connections it
makes most often.
It makes the connections thatit makes most often more
(06:47):
efficient.
So, you know, just raising myarm if I raise my arm over and
over again, well then, that'sjust connections among neurons
that's allowing that to happen.
Well, if I do that enough times, my brain says, all right, well
, this guy clearly likes raisinghis arm.
Let's figure out how to makethat more efficient and easier
for him.
And that's what happens.
We call it muscle memory, butit's not really muscle memory,
(07:09):
it's brain memory.
It's retraining our brains.
It's rewiring our brainsliterally to make these things
easier from a behavioralstandpoint.
But the thing about it is isthat everything is the result of
neuronal connections.
So how I perceive situations,whether it be optimistically or
pessimistically, that's a habit,that's a thinking style, that's
(07:32):
something I can control andit's the result of connections
in my brain and engaging,embodying, patience.
These are all like ourattitudes, the way of thinking,
our way of perceiving andexplaining and understanding the
worlds around us, the thingsthat we prioritize and put our
attention on.
Those are all habits and wedon't think of habits in that
(07:56):
way, but they are and they'rehabits for the exact same reason
that behavioral habits areBecause we're doing them.
So often.
Our brains are rewiringthemselves to make those ways of
seeing things and understandingthings easier.
So when we want to shift thoseways of being like we were just
talking about, we can do thatand we have to approach it in
the exact same way as any otherhabit we're trying to either
(08:19):
create or break.
We need to have that happenover and over, and at the
beginning it's hard.
We have to intentionally bringthat stuff to mind.
So those mantras that you'retalking about is a great way to
remind us of how I want to be.
So, for example, you asked if Ihad one, one that I tried to
use last year and I forgot, andso it wasn't really as helpful
(08:41):
as it probably could have been,and I've tried to adopt it again
this year is ride the Tao.
The Tao spelled T-A-O.
So from Taoism and withoutgoing into a whole, you know,
spiritual whatever about Taoism,the Tao is essentially
everything.
Everything is connected and theTao just is.
It just is and it's continuallyshifting.
(09:03):
It just is all things and how,the whole complete thing.
And Ride the Dow for me, justreminds me to let go and just
flow through life rather than totry to hold on so tightly to
things that I think I want, Ithink I know the right way, I
believe that my thing is the wayto go.
(09:24):
Well, you know what?
Sometimes life has a differentway.
Sometimes the Dow has adifferent flow to it, has a
different way of moving me, andI need to be okay with that.
So it doesn't mean just gettingbattered around by the winds
and getting flopped aroundwherever.
It just means, you know, ridethe wave, just like a surfer,
would you know, you can'tcontrol the wave, but you can
certainly ride the wave, andthat's how I think about the Tao
(09:45):
, so ride.
The Tao is an attitudinalapproach.
It's a mantra that reminds meto not hang on so tightly, to
just let go a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I love man because I've been practicing
that, the Taoism.
I got really big into that, Iwould say, maybe about five, six
years ago, listening to WayneDyer and things of that nature,
and that was one that reallystuck to me.
(10:20):
Because control I want, I feellike I need control of a
situation, right, which causesstress, which causes anxiousness
, and a lot of times, a lot ofthe stress and anxiousness was
all for nothing, right, thesituations ended up being out of
(10:42):
my control anyway.
The situations ended up beingout of my control anyway, um,
and the things that I did clingto or wanted to have control
over, um, definitely didn't gomy way, Right, um.
And then I started to find, whenI kind of just let things flow
and I was detached from outcomes, things started to just go
(11:04):
better for me, right, I was ableto approach situations as my
best self, right.
And so now that you mention it,right, you talk about just the
flow of life, and I know one ofthe things you mentioned is like
flow in fire.
Is it flow in the fire?
(11:25):
Right, flow flow under fire.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, flow under fire .
Fire Right.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How can folks start to let let go and have more flow
in life, especially when thingsare under fire, when it is
pressure, when it is stress, um,um.
How can?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
folks handle that.
Well, it's interesting that youworded it the way that you did.
It's one of the reasons why Ihave the programs that I do.
So the way you just said is howcan folks let go under pressure
, under stress?
Well, my answer would be well,let's not experience the stress
and pressure in the first place.
Let's take a look at that, youknow, because one of the things
that I enjoy doing ischallenging the status quo quo
(12:07):
assumptions that people make andthat our culture makes and that
society makes and that we justassume is just how it is.
And one of the things that Ihear a lot is, you know, we have
to learn how to perform well inpressure situations, or perform
well under pressure, and thatassumes that pressure is
inevitable, that we mustexperience pressure in certain
(12:29):
conditions.
And I can just tell you, afterthree decades of stunts, as I
think back on those experiences,I don't think that's true, and
I'm not alone in that.
This is a concept that is at theheart of cognitive psychology,
cognitive theory.
It's something Shakespeare knewin Hamlet Nothing is either
(12:49):
good or bad, but thinking makesit so.
It's something that the Stoicphilosophers understood
Epictetus, marcus Aurelius,2,000 years ago when they said,
it's not events that determinewhat we do and how we feel, it's
how we perceive those events,it's how we think about those
events.
That's what determines what wefeel and what we do.
And so this idea of a pressuresituation assumes that there are
(13:13):
certain situations out therethat will inevitably bring
pressure, and I don't think thatthat's right.
I think that there aresituations, and in those
situations we may experiencepressure, but the pressure is
not inevitably tied to thesituation.
It's up to us, it's how weperceive things, and stress is
the same way.
So stress and this is anotherpoint too is that people will
(13:36):
often conflate stress andpressure, meaning that they tend
to use those wordsinterchangeably, and I don't
think they're the same thing.
I think that they are differentthings and I think that they're
different in important ways.
So when we talk about stress, Ithink stress is best understood
.
For any I don't know psychotheory geeks like myself, it
(13:56):
comes from the transactionalmodel of stress that a guy named
Lazarus and Folkman it's not aguy, it's two guys, but Lazarus
and Folkman put this theorytogether transactional model of
stress and what it says is thatstress is the result of two
things.
One, how we perceive thesituation.
If we perceive the situation asa threat, that's setting
(14:18):
conditions for stress.
And the second part, and thisis critical do we believe that
we have the necessary resourcesto handle the situation
effectively?
If we do believe that we havethose resources, then stress is
typically lower.
If we don't think we have theresources, then stress tends to
be high.
So when we experience a lot ofstress, what's typically going
(14:40):
on is number one we're in athreat, we're in a situation
we're perceiving as a threat andwe don't think we can handle it
.
We don't think we can deal withit.
That's where stress comes from.
So it's a situational thing.
It's in this circumstance, inthis place right now, do I feel
like I might be harmed and if so, do I have what it takes to
(15:01):
deal with it?
Pressure, on the other hand,that comes from a focus on
consequences, not even theoutcomes success or failure, or
getting what we want.
It's about the consequences ofthose outcomes.
So if I fail, then this reallybad thing will happen and my
life will turn around in thisreally bad way that I don't
really want.
It's that focus on theconsequence.
(15:23):
And it works the other way tooand this is something a lot of
people don't talk about eitheris if it goes right, then my
life's going to explode for thegood in all these wonderful ways
.
And if I hit this, if I get itright, if I do it well, man, my
ticket's punched, I'm on thefast track to all kinds of
(15:43):
goodness.
Well, that creates pressure too,if that's where our minds are
in a performance environment.
So the whole key is, if we'rein a situation that matters to
us, high stakes environments iswhat I call them high stakes
situations, situations where theconsequences do matter to us,
and this isn't just on a stageor in front of a camera or on a
(16:04):
field.
This is in life.
In life, every day, weencounter circumstances where
the consequences matter to us.
It might be a conversation witha spouse, or how we deal with
our kids, or it could be somemeeting that we're supposed to
lead at work.
These are things that happenall the time and we care about
how they come out.
(16:24):
So it's a high stakesenvironment for us and in those
high stakes environments, if ourattention is on those possible
potential consequences thatmight end up happening, if this
outcome occurs, then that'swhere pressure comes from, and I
emphasized all those words tohighlight this fact.
(16:46):
When we're experiencing pressure, number one our attention's in
the future and number two it'son stuff that's not real.
And those two things gotogether because the future
hasn't.
It's not real.
There are certain things thatare maybe more probable than
others in the future, givencircumstances being how they are
(17:06):
, but nothing's real yet.
Nothing's been realized.
We're just imagining thesethings.
They're not actual.
So we're creating this pressurein our minds by putting our
attention on potentialconsequences that we're
imagining.
So that's where stress andpressure come from.
And and so, again, my argumentis that there is no such thing
(17:29):
as a high stress or highpressure situation.
There are just situations, andthat we are better off in those
situations, not experiencingstress or pressure.
Because you know I mean here.
Well, here's why is if I'm notexperiencing stress, then that
means I'm not experiencing thatsituation as a potential threat.
(17:49):
How might I look at itotherwise?
Well, I could look at it as anopportunity, as a chance to move
forward as a chance to improve.
If I'm not experiencing pressure, what it means is my attention
is not on these consequences,either good or bad.
It's in the moment, it's rightnow, it's on the task-relevant
(18:10):
things, the things that I needto do in order to set conditions
for that outcome.
I want to manifest and thisisn't even a hard argument to
make to people Truly everybodylistening has been in a
situation, whether it be cookinga meal or again leading a
meeting or having a conversationwith somebody you care about
(18:31):
where we've been in the zone,we've been in flow.
Whatever you want to call it, Icall it my bubble, like you've
been in the place where theoutside world, anything that's
not relevant to what's going on,just disappears.
It's not there, you're notattending to it.
What's real and what's tangibleis just in the moment.
We've all been in that placewhere things are just happening,
(18:52):
where our movements are justoccurring, where everything is
just going the way it's supposedto, of its own accord, and in
that moment there is no stress,there is no pressure.
If you ask anybody to describewhat is it like to be in the
zone, what is it like to be inflow, what is it like to be
fully present in a moment.
While you're engaged in anyactivity, you will not hear the
(19:13):
word stressful or pressure.
It's just not going to come upfor that present moment
awareness, that present momentengagement to happen.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Because if we do, by definition we're going to
eliminate stress and pressureand we're going to create
conditions where we can be atour best.
I love that I was sitting whenyou talked about.
That is all in our mind, right?
I thought about this quote.
(19:41):
We suffer more in imaginationthan in reality, and I can't
remember who is the philosopher.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Seneca, one of the stoic philosophers.
Yeah, that's Seneca, one of thestoics.
That was a quote that stuckwith me because we do, right, we
a lot of this stuff is in ourmind, in our imagination, right
and just.
I know for me, right,especially when it came to
pressure as an athlete, pressureeven in doing and doing
different podcasts.
(20:13):
It's so many things I'mthinking about of.
If this goes wrong, I'm goingto get laughed at.
If this goes wrong, you know,whatever the case may be, I'm
going to face some type ofconsequence.
Whatever the case may be, I'mgoing to face some type of
consequence.
But if this goes right, man,you know, I get all this
validation, things that willmake me look good, feel better,
(20:35):
rather than just being in themoment and saying, hey, I just
really love, you know, the gameof basketball, I just really
love whatever the craft is thatyou're doing, just being
immersed in the craft of it andseeing it as an opportunity to
grow and get better.
Now you talked about stress andseeing it as a threat, right?
(20:58):
Do you ever reframe thesethreats as like, hey, it's not a
big deal, right?
Actually, this is not a bigdeal.
This is not a threat.
This is not a real threat,right?
Do you ever refrain and kind ofmake these situations less of a
threat?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean I do, and I certainly encourage other people
to do that too, and that comesfrom just a really accurate
assessment of what's going on.
But I don't lean on that as theonly way of handling the
situation because you know what,sometimes the threat is real
and I've been in thosesituations.
I've been in situations whereif I do it wrong, I or somebody
(21:38):
I'm working with may not go home.
I mean I've been in thatsituation and I've been there
regularly and in that situationyou can't just tell somebody
look the consequence, it's notreally that big a deal, it's
really truly it's not that bad.
You know you can't do thatbecause it's not true, but at
the same time a lot of thethings.
So two things.
One is a lot of the times thatthe quote unquote threats that
(22:02):
we face they're only threatsbecause we make them that way,
we blow them up in ways, we blowthe imagined consequences up in
ways that probably theyshouldn't be blown up.
Like you mentioned, otherpeople might think well, so what
?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
difference does it make?
You know, I mean truly what?
First of all, I'm probablywrong, because other people
aren't thinking about me.
They're thinking aboutthemselves.
But even if they do happen tobe thinking about me, are they
really going to think about meas badly as I'm imagining that
they will, or for as long asthey will, or that those
thoughts will have the impact onmy life that I think it will?
Probably not.
(22:38):
So there are certainly ways towalk back, some of the ways that
some of the threats that wecreate in our minds and just
recognize the probably the morehonest answer is just this
really isn't as bad as what I'mmaking it out to be, if it's
even going to happen at all.
Again, we're just imaginingstuff that may happen in the
future.
But you know, the second pieceof that is it is the case for
(23:02):
some people some of the timethat the consequences are no
kidding important and that itreally is a situation where you
can be harmed, and so if youlook at that situation and try
to minimize that, it comes offas inauthentic.
So you have to approach it alittle bit differently, and
that's the way that you werejust talking about, which is how
(23:25):
is this an opportunity, whetherI succeed or fail, or whatever
this situation is.
How is this a chance for me togrow, to improve and when the
consequences of failure arereally high, you have to.
It's even more important, Iwould say, to lean into that.
So how is this a chance for me?
(23:45):
So, for example, I was workingon this TV show I don't know, it
was maybe a month or so ago.
It's called the Cleaning Lady.
It's a Fox TV show.
I was assassin number one.
You love when they put thenumbers after your name.
You know you're important then.
So I was assassin number one onthis thing.
And I'm looking for somebody ona sailboat that's up on a
trailer and I'm walking aroundand all of a sudden he attacks
(24:07):
me.
There's a little fight that wedo on top of the boat and he
knocks me off and I fall off theboat.
It's about 10 feet down to apicnic table.
I bounce off the picnic tableand go to the ground.
There's no mats, there's nopads.
You just fall off the boat,bounce off the picnic table, go
to the ground.
I knew that was going to hurtand I knew that there was
significant potential for injuryif I screwed it up.
So if somebody were to come tome and say, brian, the
(24:29):
consequences I mean, if youscrew this up, it's really not
going to be that bad I mean I'dhave told them they were crazy
and they need to climb up on theboat, go, fall off and bounce
off the picnic table.
So that would have beeninauthentic, it wouldn't have
been a way I could handle it,but a way that I did handle it
to reduce that perception ofthreat was, man, what an amazing
opportunity I have right now todemonstrate some of the skills
(24:51):
that I have, and now that I'm 51too, another way that I look at
it is I don't know how manymore of these chances I'm going
to get.
I don't know how many moreshows I'm going to work on, and
so each one is precious to me.
And I have the opportunity togo do this thing that I love for
a friend of mine who's thestunt coordinator and who I've
known for two and a half decades, who's a tremendous friend of
mine, and in front of thedirector was Lou Diamond
(25:13):
Phillips, who was is also agreat guy and somebody who I
just love his work.
So that's the opportunity forme is I get this chance to do
this thing and challenge myselfin a way that most people don't
get to.
And that's something I can leaninto.
And that's an importantdistinction is, when we look at
(25:35):
something as an opportunity, wedo lean in, we approach, we go
toward, whereas if we look atsomething as a threat, we hide
from, we try to avoid andthey're very different natural
reactions.
And if we're looking to succeedin any situation and truly
anybody who's ever played sports, particularly a dangerous sport
like football, or engaged insome sort of activity like that,
(25:57):
knows as soon as you try toprotect yourself from getting
hurt, you're getting hurt youhave to commit fully and that's
just a lesson for anything.
I mean, the more fully we commit.
If we really get into and giveour full selves, engagement and
wholehearted efforts towardwhatever we're doing, we are
100% creating a better conditionfor success than if we were to
(26:17):
kind of go into it halfway ortry to go into it safely.
Is the way we try to explain itto ourselves in our minds.
Explain it to ourselves in ourminds no, you just go full out,
you commit completely.
And we're able to do that whenwe see things as opportunities,
but we are not able to do that.
When we see things as threats,it's just a natural tendency to
want to shy away from, to pullback from those things that
(26:39):
might harm us.
So, in addition to loweringstress, we're also creating
opportunities for us to be atour best in those situations by
changing our perspective.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, seeing you know I'm sitting here thinking like
do you still get scared, likeyou've done over 100 different
films, right, and doingdangerous stunts like that, do
you still feel fear, right?
Yeah, because I'm sitting hereand I'm thinking about what
(27:09):
holds us back from doing thesehard things, right.
It may for you, it may be astump for somebody, it may be a
presentation in front of you,know their whole organization,
and it's some fear there, right?
It's some self-doubt there,right?
That's what the kind of thethreat is, or what may cause
(27:32):
somebody to avoid a situation.
Is that self-doubt?
Do you still feel?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
that.
Well, that's part of it, thatcan be part of it.
Here's the thing Fear is anadaptive, helpful emotion to
experience, certainly undercertain situations.
So, for example, if we are in alegitimate threat, threatful
situation, you know, in asituation that could harm us,
fear is an incredibly valuableemotion because it helps narrow
(27:57):
our attention to that thing thatwe are that we believe might
harm us, which allows us toreally attend more fully and and
hopefully alleviate that threatif we can, or just avoid it
altogether.
I mean, that's so fear.
Fear is a helpful emotionthat's adaptive, keeps us alive.
Where fear becomes maladaptiveand counterproductive is when we
(28:20):
experience it in situationswhere the threat isn't this kind
of goes along with what we werealready talking about where the
threat isn't as real or as direas what we've made it out in
our minds, and so the fear iskeeping us from engaging when we
probably should engage.
So, for example, if I'mstanding on the edge of a
(28:41):
300-foot roof and you know I'mthinking, man, it would be kind
of fun to jump off this thingand fall, you know that would be
a really dumb thought.
So I get on the edge and thenI'm afraid, I'm afraid of
(29:09):
falling from this thing.
I'm not attached to anything.
I'm standing on the edge.
I'm afraid.
Well, you should be afraid,because that helps you pay
attention to those things thatmight put you at risk and you
get off of the edge or at leastyou take care of what you need
to to alleviate that threat.
So, do I experience fear?
Yes, and I believe that it'shelpful up to a point.
So, for example, if I'mpresented with a particular
stunt, if somebody says okay,brian, so here's what we want
you to do, I want you to.
You're going to stand righthere and the car is going to
drive at you and we're going tohit you with the car and I want
you to land somewhere over inthis area, over here, somewhere
(29:33):
over in this area, over here.
Okay, so that's a situationwhere I'm going to look at it
and I'm getting hit by a car.
Again, I know it's going tohurt.
So there's some fear there,there's a potential threat.
So the fear, what it does inthat situation is it helps me
analyze the circumstances better.
Okay, so how do I minimize thisthreat, what are some steps
that I can take to mitigate therisk, and if I can do that at a
way that brings the risk down toa level where I believe I can
(29:55):
handle it.
Again, going back to stress, Iperceive it as a threat, but do
I have the resources necessaryto deal with it?
If I've been able to mitigatethe risk to a point where I
believe my resources are capableof handling the situation
effectively, believe myresources are capable of
handling the situationeffectively, then I can move
forward, then I can engage fully, then I can act in a way that
(30:20):
will be likely to be successful.
So the fear in that situationjust helps me evaluate the
circumstances.
And if the evaluation goes theother way, if it's no man, you
know what, like the car, the wayyou're talking about this car
going, it's too fast, or the waythe car is built is too much,
or where you're talking aboutyou want me to land, just
because of physics it's notgoing to happen.
(30:41):
Where I'm going to land is overthere, on that spiky whatever,
and I'm going to get impaled so.
So no, I'm not going to do thisthing, going to do this thing.
So the fear allows me toanalyze the situation
effectively.
So fear is a 100% helpfulemotion when it allows us to be
honest and really assess thecircumstances accurately.
But again, sometimes that's notthe case and we allow fear to
(31:05):
take over because our threatassessment is inaccurate,
because we've assigned too muchrisk to the situation and that
can hold us back.
So what you just mentionedabout the meeting chances are,
whether you do well or don't dowell, you know the consequences
if you're experiencing fear inthat situation, whatever threat
you're you're anticipating orthat you perceive, or whatever
(31:27):
consequences that you'reassigning to doing badly,
whatever the threat is, areprobably not accurate and we
need to reassess that.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, 100%.
And then you mentioned theresources, right, do I have the
resources?
And I feel like this goes backto self-doubt too, and how do
you feel about and this kind ofgoes back to mantras right, but
the resources of, hey, I havedone this over a hundred times,
right, or I have done over ahundred podcasts, or I have
played a hundred games, or I'vedone a lot of work, right, and I
(32:01):
feel like a lot of times we cantake ourselves for granted for
things that we've overcame inour life.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, well, that's an important point because I
believe in our life.
Yeah well, that's an importantpoint because I believe, I think
that, from the reading thatI've done around this idea of
pressure and even stress, Ithink that confidence, which is
what you're describing the lackof, when you say self-doubt,
it's a lack of confidence, andconfidence is, if we're going to
go with one definition of it,it's the belief that we are
(32:31):
capable of doing whatever we'resetting out to do successfully.
And that could be an individualactivity like this one thing
that I'm getting ready to do.
I believe that I can do itsuccessfully.
So, confidence in this onemoment, or it can be confidence
overall, Just in general, whenlife presents whatever, I
believe that I'm capable ofhandling these circumstances
(32:51):
successfully.
One is called self-efficacy.
It's a situation-specific typeof a confidence.
The other is generalizedself-efficacy, which is just a
broader, collective confidenceabout ourself.
And there are four differentways that confidence, or four
different things that affect ourlevels of confidence.
And one is what you just said,and it's a wonderful thing to
(33:13):
lean on is I've done this before.
Yeah, I've been in thesecircumstances before and maybe,
if, even if I haven't been inthis particular situation before
, I've been in situations likeit.
So, for example, you know maybeI haven't you know had to stand
up in front of 300 people andgive a presentation, but I've
certainly talked in front ofpeople when you know, had to
(33:35):
stand up in front of 300 peopleand give a presentation, but
I've certainly talked in frontof people when you know and had
everybody's eyes turned to meand I've had to make sense out
of information when you know andtry to explain it to a lot of
people all at once.
I've done that and it went fine.
So we can generalize from otherareas in that situation.
So that's an incrediblypowerful way to help boost our
confidence.
The other three ways arevicarious experience, meaning I
(33:59):
can watch you be in thatsituation.
So for example, if we'representing at a conference, we
can watch the presenters beforeus and like, look man, if he
could do it, I could do it, youknow.
I mean, there's nothingdifferent between we know the
same stuff where we walk aroundat all the same time.
If, like, there it is, I'mwatching and you know.
(34:21):
Not even just that, but you canwatch what the people do.
If they're doing itsuccessfully, break it down.
What are they doing?
That's making it successful,what's happening that you know
from their standpoint, thatthey're controlling, that's
allowing that to go well, andthen you can emulate it.
You know from your own self.
The third is persuasion.
So people that we trust tellingus, hey, you know what, you can
(34:41):
do this.
And here's why I think so.
And it is it's important thatwe hear it from people that we
trust.
If we're just, I don't know,standing at the grocery store or
something, some, some randomperson taps us on the shoulders
like, hey, store or something,some random person taps us on
the shoulders like, hey, youknow what, I believe you can do
it.
All right, thanks, bud,appreciate that.
But from the people that wetrust, that really does matter
when they believe in us and theyexpress that.
And then the last thing andthis kind of goes back to that
(35:03):
fear discussion is when we're insituations that matter to us,
they're important to us, thesympathetic nervous system
activates, and there are normal,natural and predictable things
that happen physiologically.
For example, our heart ratewill increase, our breathing
rate will increase and probablybecome more shallow, our blood
(35:24):
pressure will change, our skinwill start to sweat.
So these are things that arenormal, natural and you can just
count on them happening whenyou're in a situation that
matters.
But here's the thing is thatsometimes, when that stuff
happens, we interpret it asnervous, and other times, when
it happens, we interpret it asexcited.
(35:44):
Interesting thing is that if Iwere to attach physiological
measures to you and put you in asituation that matters to you,
and all I was looking at werewhat the physiological measures
were, I couldn't tell whetheryou were excited or afraid or
nervous.
I just wouldn't know.
And so the interpretation ofthis sympathetic nervous system
(36:08):
activity contributes to thelevels of confidence.
If I interpret it as my body'sgetting myself ready, you know,
it's getting me ready for action.
My body's preparing me toengage in whatever's going on.
That's very different from mybody's reacting like this
because I'm afraid, because I'mnot ready, because I'm not
prepared for what's gettingready to happen Completely
(36:30):
different interpretation, whichwill lead to again that
difference between approach inthe first case and avoidance in
the second case, and theperception of fear in the second
case versus the perception ofexcitement in the first.
So those are different waysthat we can think about
confidence.
Another guy I just read his book.
He's an amazing author Foranybody out there who's a reader
(36:51):
.
I just read his book.
He's an amazing author foranybody out there who's a reader
.
Ian Robinson is his name.
He wrote a book called theStress Test amazingly written
book.
He wrote a book called howConfidence Works amazingly
written book.
And the way he talks aboutconfidence is can do and can
happen.
Confidence has two parts can do,can happen and you need both.
(37:12):
So number one, I need to thinkthat I can do it.
And number two, I need to thinkif I do do it, then the change
that I'm expecting will happen.
So, for example, if we talkabout being more healthy and
working out or getting in shapeor something like that, can I do
it?
I don't think so, man.
I love the Sour Patch Kids toomuch.
There's no way that I can getin shape and that I can do this
(37:37):
or, yeah, I can.
I can put the Sour Patch Kidsdown and I can grab the celery
and I can exercise.
I can do that.
But you know what?
It ain't going to make anydifference because that's not
going to make any changes to myoverall health.
Anyway.
I'm 51.
Nothing's going to change now.
I'm just wired how I am.
It's not going to make adifference.
So whatever.
So the confidence requires both.
We have to believe that we cando and we have to believe that
(38:03):
what we're doing actually willresult in the changes that we're
trying to bring about.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, so it's confidence in me and confidence
in the plan, basically, or theprocess, right?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
If you don't have, the outcome will be what we
wanted to do.
Yeah, exactly, if I go back toschool and get a degree, then
I'm setting myself up for bettersuccess and opening up more
opportunities in terms of thejob market.
Can I go back to school and geta degree?
I don't think so.
Man, reading is hard.
I've never been able to write.
(38:35):
I can't keep my attention whereit needs to be.
I just I can't even drive there.
I can't, like, I can't do it.
That's a lack of confidence.
But yeah, I could do it.
I could go to school, I couldread the degree, I can put it on
my wall.
But that ain't going to doanything to affect any kind of
job output.
Nobody cares about degreesanymore, and the things that I'm
interested in don't requiredegrees anyway.
(38:56):
So can it happen?
You know this whole jobopportunity transformation, no,
so again, it requires both parts.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, I love that.
What about folks avoidanceright, Avoiding doing the hard
things what happens?
What happens when we avoiddoing the uncomfortable things,
when we do face these situations, right, yeah, what happens?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Well, it depends on the person.
I mean, that can happen for anynumber of reasons.
One we've talked about, whichis fear, another might just be.
I mean because now we'restarting to get into the realm
of motivation, and that may justbe.
If we are confident that we cando what we're setting out to do
, we tend to be more motivatedthan if we think, no, I don't
(39:56):
even think I can do it, so whytry?
So motivation is tied toconfidence in that way.
But the other two things thataffect levels of confidence are
the extent to which we careabout the behavior, to which you
know, the extent to which itmatters to us.
It's important to us for somereason.
Now, there are a lot of reasonswhy it might be important to us
, and those reasons really domatter, which we can get into
(40:18):
later.
The source of motivation isimportant, but as far as levels
of motivation, it has to beimportant to us for some reason.
So if we don't care about it,again, we're not going to be
motivated to engage in it.
But if, for some reason, it'simportant to us, well then we're
(40:39):
more likely to be motivated.
And the third is the benefithas to outweigh the cost of
engaging in the behavior.
So I can believe I can do thebehavior and I can even care
about it.
I can think it's important, butI can also, at the same time,
believe that, even if I do it,like the benefit associated with
doing this thing just doesn'toutweigh the cost.
And when I say cost I mean itcould be a literal cost of money
, like going back to school, butit could be a cost of time or
(41:01):
energy or social capital.
This thing is going to take meaway from my friends.
I'm not going to loserelationships or whatever.
So, whatever the costs arethere are a lot of them but at
the bottom line is, if thebenefits that we perceive
outweigh the costs, then we'regoing to be more motivated than
if the costs outweigh thebenefits.
And again, this is perceived.
So all of this this is theinteresting thing All of this
(41:23):
comes down to us as people andhow we see the situation.
Nobody can force us to bemotivated, nobody can force us
to be confident.
It is our belief that we arecapable of doing what we're
setting out to do.
It doesn't matter whether youtell me that I'm capable of
doing what I'm setting out to do.
Even if I trust you.
That still doesn't guaranteethat when you tell me no, I'm
(41:46):
telling you, brian, you can dothis, that I'll believe you, and
nobody can make us care aboutthings.
If I care about it, then I careabout it, and if I don't, if I
don't see any value in it, thenI don't.
That's on me.
That's my perception of thesituation and it's my math
equation in my own head aroundthe benefits and costs that's
going to determine the outcomethere.
(42:08):
Nobody can force it.
People can talk about it, theycan tell me, they can give me
information, they can try topersuade me, whatever it might
be, but they can't make me.
So anybody who says you know,how do I motivate my people, how
can I get my people motivatedand I used to get that question
all the time when I was workingwith the military how do I, how
do I motivate you?
Can't is the short answer.
You can create conditions as aleader that will help foster
(42:32):
motivation.
There are things you as aleader can do within your
environment to create a climatethat will likely boost
motivation and sustain it overtime with your people.
But you can't guarantee it.
It's all in our own heads.
We create it in our own minds.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, that's so good, especially the costs and
benefits, right?
One thing, and I think evenmyself is struggling, or what I
have struggled with, is even thefear of success.
Right, I want to do this, Iwant to become this.
The cost of this, though, ismaybe less time with friends,
(43:15):
maybe less you know less my way,and having these, you know,
kind of self-sabotagingbehaviors of wanting to stay
comfortable in that environment,in that place, of wanting to,
(43:49):
you know, remain with friends,keep my life simple, keep my
life less stressed, but theseare all perceived notions.
These are all things that I'mmore than likely overthinking,
right, as opposed to reallystepping into the actual person
that I want to be right, andjust letting go and flowing.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, well, it's up to you.
You know that's the thing it'sup to all of us what you know.
What is the thing and that wasa great example, because you
know people typically will useexamples around.
The thing that popped into mymind as you were talking about
that was injury.
Yeah, when you talk aboutinjury recovery, can I go to
rehab and do this?
Sure, do I care about beinghealthy and being not, you know,
(44:34):
in pain?
Again, yeah, I do care aboutthat.
Does the cost of going intotherapy and having these people
rip my body around in weird waysthat are incredibly painful,
for hours on end, every singleday for months, does the cost of
that outweigh the benefit of myjust sitting here on my bed,
just laying here watching TV, inmaybe a little bit of pain and
maybe even, you know, a littlebit more pain, but not the pain
(44:55):
that I would be in if I went totherapy?
Well, you know, maybe, likethat cost may outweigh the
benefit in that situation,because that's just how we see
it.
And but you went the successroute, which I think is great,
because that's also a thing likein good situations, like in
what people would typically lookat as good stuff, we would
typically label success as good.
(45:15):
Even there, can you do it?
Yeah, I can achieve success.
Do I care about it?
Yeah, I want it, I see it, Isee the value of it.
There's a lot of goodness there.
Does the cost outweigh thebenefit?
Well, I don't know.
I think it might.
I think it might.
I think it might, and so themotivation might be lower.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, obviously, overtime, right, you know, you learn
to kind of grow your self-imageright, things you want for
yourself, how you see yourself,how you perceive yourself.
And, like you said, no matterhow many people tell you, hey,
you got it, go for it, you're aleader, matter how many people
(45:54):
tell you, hey, you got it, Gofor it, you're a leader, you
have everything.
It takes, it's up to you.
Like you said, it is up to youand we can end on this.
What can folks start to do?
Right, folks who want it, folkswho do care, but it seems like,
hey, maybe I don't want it thatbad, or maybe the cost of it is
not there, um, or maybe it'sdoubt.
It's a lot of different reason,that reasons that hold folks
(46:17):
back.
What do you think people canstart to do to kind of raise
their self-image, the smallthings on a daily basis, to
start to, um, gain moreconfidence in themselves?
That isn't, um, you know,unnatural, it's actually earned.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, it's not fluff that we're trying to.
You know, like the rainbows andunicorns, we're trying to talk
ourselves into that we are.
Yeah, no, that doesn't work.
And so this is where that wholeI loved your play of.
You know, I've done this before, I've gone this route and most
of us have that Again.
We may have failed 10 out of 10times at whatever this thing is.
We may not have any success todraw from in this one area, but
(46:58):
when we analyze the reasons forthat failure well, I screwed up
with this.
Well, is there anothersituation where you had to
encounter or you did encounterand you overcame a situation
similar to that?
Lean on that.
Lean on that experience.
These are things that can boostthe confidence.
Watch other people Break downtheir success.
Is there something that they'redoing that you're not?
Maybe you just don't have theskills yet?
(47:19):
Watch and learn the skills andthen you get better so that the
next time you try, then you'rebetter off.
Really, analyze what people whoare good at it are doing and
when I say good at it, I don'tmean people who are good at it
are doing, and and when I saygood at it, I don't mean like if
I were to go watch, um, uh, Idon't know.
Uh, you know, patrick, my homesplay quarterback and and I'm
(47:42):
saying you know what, I think Iwant to go play quarterback too.
Like you know, let me go watchPatrick Mahomes.
That may not be the right modelfor me, because I'm 51 and I've
never played quarterback.
So so, trying to emulatesomebody at the top of their
game, maybe that's not the rightanswer.
But finding another personwho's around my age, like maybe
I go out to the, to the pickupleague, wherever it is, and I
(48:04):
watched somebody who's reallyexcelling, who's doing really
well, and I watch what they'redoing and I ask them how they
train and I pay attention to theways that they prepare.
Those are probably things thatI can emulate, because they've
got a real job too during theday.
Their time isn't completelyspent at the gym and on the
field the way pro athletes are.
So what are some things I cantake away from people who are
(48:26):
fairly similar to me?
That's a great way of doing it.
Me, that's a great way of doingit.
And then you know, to be honestwith you, I just taken us right
back to the very beginning ofthis is because I mentioned
sources of motivation and thatthere are a lot of them.
Sometimes we try to draw on thewrong sources of motivation,
ones that are just too volatileand that change and just don't
hold up over time, meaning a lotof us will revert to,
(48:50):
especially if we start talkingabout habits and building habits
to rewards and punishments.
Are rewards and punishmentssources of motivation?
Absolutely.
If you say, brian, if you go 10days in a row without eating
any Sour Patch Kids, I'm goingto give you $1,000.
Well, I very much want the$1,000.
So that's some good motivationto stay away from the Sour Patch
Kids.
But as soon as you say I'm donegiving you $1,000, I'm saying,
(49:13):
all right, well, I'm donegetting rid of the Sour Patch
Kids.
And so the source of motivation,when it's a reward, it only
works when the reward is around,and the reward can't always be
around.
That's a very hard thing forpeople to put into place.
So the sources of motivationthat work over time, especially
(49:33):
when we're talking about thekind of stuff you're talking
about, are those sources ofmotivation that come from within
, not without.
It's not the threat ofsomething bad happening if we
don't do this thing.
It's not the threat ofsomething good happening.
If we do do this thing, it'snot the avoidance of shame and
guilt or negative judgment fromothers that's going to keep us
going over time in theseactivities.
(49:54):
It's stuff that comes fromwithin us.
What are our values?
What do we care about?
What are we living for?
What defines us at our core?
Those things that really, whenyou ask the question, what you
asked at the very beginning, whois Brian Haidt?
Well, let me answer that interms of the values that I want
to embody, because if I havethose values and I'm trying to
(50:17):
live those out and I connectthose values to the behaviors
that we're talking about beingmotivated to do in this behavior
, well, because of this valuethat I hold, because it's
connected in a way that'sinseparable, that's where
sustained motivation comes from.
(50:37):
That's the type of motivationthat will get us through those
rough days, those challengingdays that we all have, that we
all have.
That's the stuff that'll pullus out of those moments and keep
us moving in the productivedirections that we know we need
to go in.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
I love that being connected to your values and
connect those values to thebehaviors.
And when I'm thinking about myvalues right, I'm thinking about
how it has nothing to do withany outside opinions, any
outside events.
It's all me being present andconnecting to who I truly am and
(51:16):
just letting go of the rest.
So I love it.
Brian, where can folks find you?
Where can folks continue tokind of follow your journey?
And you know, see the greatwork that you're doing, you know
see the great work that you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
I'd say, start at the website brianheitglobalcom
B-R-I-A-N-H-I-T-E global,g-l-o-b-a-lcom, and you'll find
information about me, about someof the programs that I offer.
You can reach out to me throughthere to schedule a discovery
call.
If you have questions, if anyof the things that we've talked
about today resonate with youand you want to bring me in to
(51:51):
talk about them, either in aspeaker capacity or they're
workshops, or you want towhatever just get a hold of me
through there.
You can email me at brian atbrianheightglobalcom.
I will absolutely get back toyou.
These are tough things.
You know the things that we'vebeen talking about, the lack of
confidence, the loweredmotivation, the pressure, the
(52:14):
stress, just a sense of generaloverwhelm in situations where we
really feel like we can andshould be doing better.
Those are rough places to beand I've been there and it
sounds like you have too andit's much easier to work our way
through those when we havesomebody to hold our hand and
take us through and give us someguidance throughout, and I'd
love to be that person for you.
So, again, if anything I'vesaid resonates with you and you
(52:38):
want to learn more or just talkto somebody about it.
Please reach out.
I'd love to have theconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I love it.
Yeah, I mean, you've added somuch value and, man, I mean I
didn't even get a chance to goto your story and really
understand how you even got towhere we went a full hour of
just adding a ton of value,which I really appreciate.
Right, it was just a flow ofvalue and we just let go.
And so, brian, I definitelyappreciate you just just having
(53:08):
your heart open and just flowing.
I appreciate you Just havingyour heart open and just flowing
.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
No, I appreciate you, and if you ever want to get
back into it and have theconversation about all the stuff
you were talking about wedidn't get to have the
conversation about, I'd love tocome back.
This has been a pleasure.
I've truly enjoyed it and thankyou so much for having me on.
Appreciate it.
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