April 10, 2025 • 39 mins
The distinction between spiritual formation and legalism might seem subtle, but it fundamentally transforms how we approach our relationship with God. Join host Pastor Jonathan Sole and Pastor Mike Woodward as they unpack this life-changing difference that many Christians struggle to understand.
At the heart of this conversation lies a powerful truth: spiritual formation flows from who we are in Christ, while legalism demands performance to establish worth. Pastor Mike vulnerably shares how his early faith was marked by "achievement-oriented spirituality" that actually built walls around his deepest wounds—wounds God wanted to heal.
We explore how Genesis 3 reveals three toxic mindsets still plaguing believers today: distorted views of God, self, and Scripture. These misperceptions drive us toward rule-following rather than relationship-building. Through passages like Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 3:18, and Galatians 4:19, we discover how true transformation happens by "beholding" Christ rather than simply modifying behavior.
The conversation takes a practical turn as we discuss spiritual disciplines as "habits of the heart" rather than legalistic obligations. Prayer, Scripture reading, community, corporate worship—these practices create space for the Spirit's transforming work. But the motivation matters profoundly. Are you engaging with these disciplines from love or from fear?
This episode offers freedom to those trapped in performance-based spirituality. When you understand that your identity determines your actions—not the reverse—everything changes. God isn't waiting for your perfect performance; He's already perfectly pleased with His Son whose righteousness covers you completely. From this foundation of grace, true Christlikeness can flourish.
Ready to break free from the exhaustion of legalism? Listen now and discover the joy of spiritual formation that flows from being loved rather than striving to be worthy of love.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi and welcome back to the Pleasing God podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Soul,and once again I'm joined with
my special guest, Pastor MikeWoodward.
It's good to have you on again,Good to be here, Awesome, Great
.
So on this episode I want totalk about spiritual formation
(00:29):
as opposed to legalism and howdo those two things because
oftentimes we can kind ofconfuse them and just wanting to
kind of create someunderstanding of separate
categories and how spiritualformation actually breaks the
bonds of legalism and so forth.
So I know this is an importantsubject and I just hope it's
(00:52):
encouraging for listeners asthey kind of wrestle through,
you know, this growth andfighting against tendencies of
legalism.
We are spiritual beings, we arecreated in the image of God and
so there is a longing for thedivine.
It's no wonder why there's somany religions.
Right, you just see, mankind isspiritual.
(01:13):
But the question we want tothink about is as spiritual
beings, are we fosteringbiblical spirituality or are we
just following rules?
And, Mike, any experience justin your own life, maybe
personally, about this kind ofspiritual formation and legalism
?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, I mean it got into my mind when you were
talking, I know, early in myfaith because of my own trauma
background.
When I came into faith it wasbeautiful and I know that the
Lord saved me by His grace.
But I began to build up,without realizing, I think,
religious walls throughachievement-oriented
(01:51):
spirituality, which was kind ofmarked for me by unperfectionism
, to think I can achieve aspirituality, and it was a check
the box type of thing.
but it was actually a way for meto build up walls around my
real wounds you know, and tokind of like make a almost
confabulate the story ofsalvation by like God freed me
from all and like it was a greatyou know story to tell.
(02:12):
But for the early years of myfaith I was, I was hiding wounds
that God really wanted to getto.
I just know, and it wasn'tuntil I began to really
understand spiritual formationto the degree of it.
You said.
You know we were talking offthe podcast about.
It's a delight.
So we're dealing withspirituality that isn't
(02:34):
fear-oriented or guilt-orientedbut, it's love-oriented and
grace-oriented and that's abeautiful thing.
So, for me, I came into thatplace and I've continued to be
in that place and learning itstill to this day.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's great.
And so just to define some ofour terms in a clear sense, so
that listeners have anunderstanding of what we're
seeking to speak about spiritualformation.
In the simplest terms, I wantto say becoming more like Christ
.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Whereas legalism, we would say, is performance-based
righteousness, doing your bestand focus on your own
performance.
And so these are differentcategories.
But the challenge is that whenwe observe it, they can look
similar but they come from twodifferent hearts.
And when you talk about notfear-based or guilt-based, I'm
(03:24):
just reminded of just thedominant cultures in our world.
When you think about Genesis 3and the effects of sin, we talk
about the fall of mankind.
You could go to Genesis 3, andthree dominant worldviews emerge
from Genesis 3.
When Adam and Eve eat the fruit, you see fear, guilt and shame.
And it's no wonder that thoseare the kind of dominant
(03:47):
worldviews and cultures aroundour world.
Here in the West, we're a guiltand innocence culture, and so
this is why forensicjustification by faith is like
the doctrine that the churchlives and dies on because we
operate in this category ofguilt and innocence, and so what
speaks to us is declaredrighteous, not guilty.
Well, you have other biblicalpassages lives and dies on
because we operate in thiscategory of guilt and innocence,
and so what speaks to us isdeclared righteous, not guilty.
Well, you have other biblicalpassages about Christ bearing
(04:12):
our shame and taking our sin andour shame away and those speak
to cultures of honor and shame.
You'll get a lot of that inMiddle Eastern cultures, muslim,
jewish cultures as well.
And then there's the fear andpower cultures.
I think about what Paul says toTimothy we don't have a spirit
(04:33):
of fear, but of power andself-control and love and a
sound mind, and so in some oftribal cultures, african culture
, there's the fear and power.
This is often why the spiritualman is considered like the
powerful guy in the tribe andhow all of those things can give
(04:55):
way to a legalistic mindset oflike well, I do these things
because I feel guilty or becauseof shame.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I have a friend who is a woodmaker crafter.
He's a craftsman.
I would break every.
I would be doing demolition,sure, that's for sure.
I went to see his shop inProvidence a few weeks ago and
he's showing me around.
He's showing me all the toolsand the machines and I'm like
this stuff, if he left me inthere, I don't even know where I
would start.
(05:24):
Give me a hammer, maybe I cando something, yeah.
But I was walked over to thewall and he was showing me these
.
They were vices, is what hesaid.
But when I saw them I thoughtthe little part at the bottom,
and I can't explain it wellenough.
But what I saw was the littlepart, the bottom was the vice.
And then suddenly he goes no,the whole thing, and they were
all lined up.
And it was amazing because inthat moment I was and it goes to
(05:49):
what we're talking about.
You said mindset that peoplehave.
I've had it with legalism, butreally it's how we see things
and it's a perception thing,which is why Jesus is trying to
give us a new perception to seethe world differently, which
Paul uses the term in the oldEnglish was enlightened and the
thing is that what my friendssaw was different than what I
(06:11):
saw, but we were looking at thesame thing, but he had something
in him that I didn't have thatmade us see it differently.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So when we look at spiritual formation, when you
talk Genesis 3, it's great whatyou said about the three things,
because what happens therethere's three I think there
would be three toxic things thatemerge A toxic view of me, yes,
a toxic view of God and Ireally do think.
A toxic view of the Bible, andI think this is where people
(06:44):
misunderstand and it is thereand right in the Scripture
telling us this is what's gonnahappen and you see God kind of
mercifully walking, helpingpeople.
But it really is to get us tosee God, the right way to see
ourselves, the way God sees us.
I should probably be writingthis down.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
This is my three-step .
We're doing the learning rightnow.
John, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And then to make sure we see the Bible the way God
says it should be read and seen,and let it read us that way.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
the Bible the way God says it should be read and seen
, and let it read us that way.
That's so.
I just hear John Calvin in thatstatement, because his premise
of his institute is like no Knowyourself, no God.
And so we know God in light ofourselves, we know ourselves in
light of God's revelation.
But I would say that there is anorder and the order you gave is
it's perspective of God thatputs right, perspective of self
(07:28):
and his word, and, I think, yourillustration of the clamps, the
vices.
We can see things differentlyand I guess the question would
be then what is the lens thatwe're looking through, lens that
we're looking through?
Is it motivated from guilt,shame or fear, or is it through
the power of the gospel thatunlocks those things, that
(07:56):
redeems us from all of thosethings?
Because Jesus, the true andbetter Adam, who came and
reversed the curse and set usfree to grow in his likeness.
While those things can stillhave their effects, they don't
have dominion over us, and sowhen we think about spiritual
formation and some biblicalpassages that come to mind in
(08:18):
what this looks like in ourminds, I think about Romans,
chapter 12, verse 2.
Paul says do not be conformedto this world, but be
transformed by the renewal ofyour mind, that by testing you
may discern what is the will ofGod, what is good and acceptable
and perfect.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
In parentheses see the clamps vices correctly.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yes, yeah exactly, and it's not conformity to this
world, but there's transform,this metamorphosis.
It's the caterpillar going intothe cocoon and coming out
completely different.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And there's a surrender in that, in Romans 12,
one that he says is ourreasonable act of worship, which
, thinking about this more, thismore Now, when people may hear
that looking at the vice on thewall, they'll see that, as I've
got to sacrifice myself, I'vegot to surrender myself.
But it may be very abstract,but if you really look at it,
(09:12):
it's really about vulnerabilitywith God.
It's about being able to betransparent with God, because to
be able to surrender myself asa reasonable act of worship
means I'm really, I'm doing whatJesus says.
If you want to enter into thekingdom, you've got to be like a
child.
Yeah, which a child doesn't?
You're not asking how is youryoungest child?
You have two twins that are?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, they're six weeks, are they?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
going to be getting a paper route in a year so they
can take care of their ownfeeding.
No, Right.
Because they are.
Right, they are ultimately,they're gonna be dependent in a
way that's free.
And this really matters inspiritual formation that we are
(09:51):
not childish but childlike tothe degree that we're
opened-armed, like when Jesuspulls a little child in the
midst.
Imagine being there when hepulls a child in the midst and
said this is what you need.
And there's a little boylooking at all of them looking
around.
There's a dependency that is soresting in parental love, but
there's also a vulnerabilitythere and I think this is a
(10:11):
necessary thing.
That's the shift that canhappen.
I think a lot of times, a lotof people are in the legalistic
phase because of our pride,because of our wrong view of God
, wrong view of ourselves, wrongview of scriptures.
Perhaps and I'm not saying andthere are brothers and sisters
out there that are caught inthis and we have to be so
merciful to them.
But I think that we have tounderstand that there's a
(10:33):
vulnerability that's necessaryin spirituality.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
It is the great paradox of the Christian faith.
Here's another illustration Ina past life I got to play golf,
and one of the things about golfis aim left to go right, aim
right to go left.
It's backwards.
Backward illustration, tighterto, and so everything's
(11:01):
backwards and it's against yournatural thinking.
And when we think aboutspiritual formation, when you're
talking about surrender andliving sacrifice, to surrender
is freedom and to try to hold onis bondage when Jesus says come
(11:22):
and die that you might live.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Paradox.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
There it is, there it is, and so legalism is trying
to just hold on, because that'swhat might seem natural.
I mean, legalism is I wanna becareful and be gracious.
I don't think legalism is anerror.
I think, if we get it down tothe core, it's almost another
religion, just because itreplaces the freedom that we
(11:47):
have in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
It's the go back to Genesis 3, it's the fig leaves
in the narrative.
It is it's me covering my ownguilt 100%.
So it's like that's the firstreligion, the religion of the
fig.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yes, you know it's.
I need to try better.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, I need to do better, and God in the story, in
the narrative, he clothes them.
Yeah, that's right, that'sright.
So think about the grace whicha lot of people wouldn't even
see.
They'll God's still graciouswith them and clothing them.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And even before he clothes them, he looks at the
serpent and says the seed of thewoman will bruise the head.
It's prophecy.
Yeah, here is Jesus.
And so, before even theconsequences fully fell and the
curse falls, god preaches thegospel of victory.
And so it's always beensalvation by faith and the
(12:40):
promised one to come.
And then he closed them becauseGod's the author of true
religion and true spirituality.
So we have this call to renewal, another passage of scripture,
just understanding spiritualformation 2 Corinthians 3.18,.
And we all, with unveiled face,beholding the glory of the Lord
(13:02):
, are being transformed into thesame image, from one degree of
glory to another.
For this comes from the Lord,who is the Spirit.
So we have renewal, we havetransformation.
It's not moral reformation yeah, we don't need to, just it's
not achievement yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
you know, paul says in first timothy, a passage I
continue to.
Honestly I feel like it'sbecome more of a ministry verse
for me in the last few years.
But he says to timothy says hey, I asked you to stay in ephesus
.
Confront those that areteaching the false, wrong
doctrine, a contrary doctrine,yeah, and he says to him.
He says and telling him to stopgetting caught up with
meaningless discussions aboutpedigrees and genealogies and
(13:44):
mythos.
He uses it later in 2 Timothy,but he tells him.
He says these things don't leadto the right kind of
stewardship of faith which Ithink he's talking.
He's talking spiritualformation and he says there he
goes, the aim or the goal of ourteaching is love out of a pure
heart, unfeigned faith, aconscience that's not defiled.
(14:04):
Yeah, this is honestly, when Ithink about spiritual formation
a lot lately, because I see alot of people getting caught up
in the wrong again.
It's the wrong way of seeingsomething when Paul's saying,
hey, that's all knowledge thatthey can't even be solid on.
Here's the aim or the goal ofthe teaching, of the
(14:25):
commandments, of the clearteachings of Christ, the New
Testament, the things that wecan know.
Here it is, and what's the goalof it Love, not a spiritual
trophy yeah, that's right or aself-achievement which is
painful, and that's why I thinka lot of people do it.
I think a lot of people do it.
I think a lot of legalism isthere to hide or cover a pain or
a wound.
It's very easy to do.
And here you have Paul sayinghey, it's about.
(14:46):
The goal is love, yeah that'sright, that's right.
But when 2 Corinthians 3, theword beholding there, I think,
is the key, because you'retalking about this continual
action and I'm sure you're goingto go here, john, because
you're smart as a whip uh, thewhat is?
What?
Does that even mean to be smartas a whip?
I gotta look that up, actually,I I never thought they were.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean it strikes.
I would think a whip couldreally hit it right, right,
straight.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
so I'm thinking you, you, obviously you know you're
saying things are right on point, sure, but beholding is like
this continual action.
So I know you're going to go tothis because we're talking the
knowledge, yeah, it's this, it'sthis, it's this and we're
basically explaining what thevice is.
We're talking still of thatshop piece or this is how you
play golf.
You ever disc golfed?
Same principles apply.
(15:29):
I just played for the firsttime on Monday, shoulders sore.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Same principles, bro, but how does a person in
spiritual formation nowunderstand that it is love?
That is the goal.
We are going to be transformed,we are to renew our mind, we
are going to behold.
How do I sit and find thatplace?
These are the spiritualpractices.
(15:52):
Yeah, these are yourdisciplines.
You were going here.
I know you were going here.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, so we have.
We have we established ourfinish line, our goal.
What are we, what are weseeking Then?
(16:16):
Yeah, because we're not talkingpractically yet, you know,
we're still talking the abstract, like renewal.
I mean practically speaking,when we look at what spiritual
formation is and we're talkinggrowth and transformation, it's
becoming less like me and morelike Jesus, and it's progressive
(16:39):
sanctification as a theologicalterm, and to visualize that, my
mind goes to Galatians 5.
And in the most practical sense, the fruit of the Spirit is
love, joy, peace, patience,kindness, goodness, faithfulness
, gentleness, self-control.
I love that.
It's singular, it's the onecluster, right, it's the fruits.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's a cluster of grapes, right, and I want it all
.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And I do I desire it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And I think, even when we talk about spiritual
formation, is, the more we growlike Christ, the more we desire
Christ.
And so when we talk aboutbeholding.
Even there it is looking toJesus.
And where do we look to Jesusand how do we commune with Jesus
?
What are the means forformation?
Don Whitney writes a great bookon spiritual disciplines for
(17:31):
the Christian life, and I meanhis premise is these are the
habits that we can implement inour life for that formation, Not
that we are in bondage to them,right.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But they're liberating.
They're like the breaking up ofthe ground, of the soil, but we
can't make the seed grow oremerge.
God does that.
But it's like working inconsonance with God by me
opening my heart.
These are the spiritualpractices.
This is a beautiful thing andthat's why it does require
people to step outside ofcertain.
(18:05):
You know, in Fowler's stages offaith he talks about People
recognize God, they get intodiscipleship and then they start
serving and people stay there.
You know, they stay in thesethings.
Those are beautiful, but thenthey hit a trial or they hit a
dry period, they hit a wall, andthe church at times doesn't
always know how to deal withthat.
(18:25):
It may even be a period ofdoubt, but it's in that moment
where this is where growth canactually take place, because
you've got to step out of thesethree realms and now it's time
to really connect with God andmove into that place.
And it's interesting becausewhen you say Galatians, I didn't
know if you were going to sayGalatians 4.19, which is
(18:47):
probably one of the less versesused for spiritual formation, as
I've heard it and here we aretalking about legalism Galatians
is a letter about legalismthere it is yeah.
And he tells them in Galatians,4.19,.
I'll read it from the ESVbecause when you hear it it's
(19:07):
one of the defining verses ofspiritual formation.
He says here in 4.19, he saysmy little children.
So he sees them, as you know,in this fatherly sense, for whom
I am again in the anguish ofchildbirth, until Christ is
formed in you.
Wow, that's great, you know.
So I wish I could be presentwith you now and change my tone
if I'm perplexed about you.
So he sees them as people whoalready began this process.
(19:31):
Why are you putting yourselfback into this bondage?
Christ is being formed in us.
You know, and that's a greatverse to say, and actually some
interpreters of the past theywould call this.
In the Greek it would be theTheotokos or the Christos Tokos.
The Christ bearer, like Christ,is being birthed in us in that
(19:53):
sense.
Pretty wonderful theology.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
We don't you know, maybe spend a little time on it
Similar to theosis, but that's awhole different category yeah,
different different, differentcategory yeah.
But you think you know evenimage of God and likeness and
reflecting Christ in ourChristian lives.
I mean that Christ being formedin you.
(20:19):
I mean that is what coming tofaith and growing as a disciple
of Jesus Christ is a follower.
And I think sometimes we evenget the terms Christian and
disciple a little.
I'm a Christian, that's a noun,I'm a disciple, that's a verb
right.
And I am an active follower ofJesus.
So in doing so I become moreand more like the one I'm
(20:41):
following, and so then again, westill need to kind of connect
the dots here though, like howdo I do that?
And so, ultimately, I just wantto kind of take some of the
spiritual disciplines that weshould and don't hear the word
discipline and think duty andlegalism.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, these are the means or habits of the heart
I've heard it said that waydisciplines that we should and
don't hear the word disciplineand think duty and legalism, no,
that these are the means orhabits of the heart.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I've heard it said that way.
That's a good way to put it,because it is heart.
It is from a heart of love Godhas.
I am renewed, redeemed,ransomed, and as a result of
this I mean the Spirit dwellswithin us.
Amen.
The Spirit delights in thethings of God.
He is God right.
So we think about practicalsteps for spiritual formation.
I think, as we kind of comefull circle on this, we need the
(21:31):
shift in perspective.
We need to shift from focusingon our performance to our
relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yes, and there it is.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's focusing on knowing Christ.
Right now we're going throughin our church, we're taking a
group through knowing God andit's just wonderful we're
sitting there.
Great work.
We're reflecting on this.
Last week we were talking aboutGod's unchangingness, his
immutability, his majesty andeven beholding God in his word
(22:04):
and his attributes, beholdingChrist in his actions and his
works.
That has power to transform theheart.
So it's focusing on knowingChrist, not just doing for
Christ.
Let our actions flow downstreamfrom the gospel.
(22:25):
So in our service, I mean thosethings come as a result of so
understanding we do based off ofidentity, and it's who I am in
Christ.
My identity determines myaction, not my action determines
my identity.
There's the switch up onlegalism.
Legalism says my actiondetermines who I am.
The one who is growing inspiritual formation says because
(22:48):
I am, I do.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
You know, one of the things that happened and it
connects to what you're sayingwith the two see in the church,
privileged Shepherd, I wanted togive some form of a solid creed
about this, about what theBible— when we were using Romans
8, 29 and 30, 31, and then wewere using Galatians 4 and
trying to teach and I was tryingto get something that would—it
(23:11):
wasn't the mission statement,but it was some form of a
creedal representation.
And you know, I years playedaround with this and that and
tried to get it.
So I, because I wanted peopleto understand this ultimate
truth, that ultimately, we'rebecoming like Christ, that this
is God's ultimate.
You know, when you see Romans 8, 29, you know most people quote
28 without realizing it'sconnected to 29,.
(23:33):
You know saying, you know weknow all things work together
for the good to them who loveGod, to them who love God, to
them who call to the calling ofHis purpose whom God foreknew,
he also predestined.
They're going together becausewhat he's saying is everything
that you're going to go throughin your life circumstances.
God will use it and he can workwith it and change us into what
he wants us to be.
One time I used thisillustration.
(23:53):
It became comical, but ithelped me.
My wife makes these greatcookies.
She's a, she loves the bake,she's a great baker and, uh, she
makes this one cookie and Ijust love this sugar cookie.
At christmas, I was like whatis in this?
When she told me theingredients one of the
ingredients I would never eatalone it's just not my thing
which was sour cream.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Oh, I was gonna say cottage cheese, yeah, yeah even
that might be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
So, but there's.
When she said sour cream.
But then I looked at theingredients salt, white flour,
you know, sugar you see themseparate like whoa, but when you
put them together the bakerputs them together they make a
really good cookie.
So I always say that aboutRomans 8, 28, that this is what
this text is really telling usthat God can take the salt and
the sour cream and the sugar inour life and if we're trusting
(24:38):
him and surrender to him, he'llmake us into one good cookie.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And so I kept wrestling with these creedal
things and I realized there's noway for me it's gonna be
legalistic in a sense, or it'sgonna be just a plain statement
for me to tell people this Ourchurch today uses a prayer and
we don't use written prayers.
We know the Psalms are writtenprayers, but we use a prayer
that's very succinct in ourchurch and we pray it.
(25:03):
I preach on it once a year andwe have it on a card in our
Bibles.
We have a card with it and it'sa prayer we pray.
Sometimes we pray it togetherpublicly once in a while.
It's not something we pray in arote sense, but it's our
church's sacred prayer andbecause I found that it couldn't
be the spiritual formation Ididn't want it to be a statement
(25:23):
.
It needed to be something thatwas active in prayer, and it's.
The prayer is Lord, make me amore awake, compassionate,
christ-like human being, wherethe inner life of Christ is
being formed in my inner life.
That's fantastic.
That's the prayer of our churchthat we've had for the last
three years.
That's great and we pray.
Like I said, I preach on itonce a year, so people will use
it and have it.
But it was basically a way forthem and we teach them how, what
(25:45):
all the biblical pieces of itis to give them that first point
to say God does wanna do thisin your life.
It starts with prayer and thenit opens the door to what we're
talking about now the habits ofthe heart.
What are these?
And I think that we come intothe place of what our
personalities are, because Idon't think everybody's going to
always practice the same thingsmore.
(26:07):
I have found a groove thatworks with me.
I don't impose that on otherpeople, though.
I want them to make sure theyexplore that Most people never
want to be in solitude orsilence because then they're out
of control.
Whitney riffs on that one.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, because we do need that,especially in this culture, you
know, in the dated culture todaydistraction, but yeah.
So these are some of those, andthese disciplines enable us to
(26:29):
encounter God because theysanctify or make sacred the
presence and the spaces we're in.
Yes, by knowing that we canencounter.
God as a Christian, god'sdwelling within us, christ's
dwelling within us.
So for me it's.
I sit quietly before the Lord,I call it.
In the morning I sing a psalm.
I read very slowly, withoutcommentary or study.
(26:50):
I read the passage of the Bible.
I journal is one other area.
I like to be contemplative, tothe sense of walking and praying
.
So these are some of mypractices that have helped me.
Now some of them have helped inhealing my spiritual wounds, or
inner wounds, like sittingquietly with a text for a long
(27:11):
time, trying to understandChrist's love, 1 Timothy 4.
Those are things that havehelped me in those regards.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, that's great, and yeah, we're not prescribing,
so to speak of like, do thesethings follow this list, because
now we're being spiritualformation.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Legalists and we don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, right, but we are saying here are practices
from our own lives, things thatwe glean from the Scriptures
that have been useful andthere's nothing new under the
sun.
But we also we do recognizepeople are uniquely created in
the image of God.
Different personalities,different temperaments.
You know what works?
(27:53):
Uh, we know are tried and truemethods but it might look.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It might look different for people.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You might be a, a night person.
I mean, you can't, you don'twake up till 10 o'clock.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, my wife's like that.
She wants to read the Bible.
She was telling me she read itat night yeah.
You know I love the dawn.
I got up this morning.
I was at the church at five 30.
I love going in there.
There's nothing you knowmystical happening, but I just
need this silent, simple space,yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And I think what we can do is be descriptive of
things that work.
That means, I would say, meansof grace for spiritual formation
.
And then, you know, theencouragement to listeners is to
seek to implement some of thesethings in your life.
It starts with the paradigmshift of thinking, because
you're not doing to please God.
(28:40):
God is perfectly pleased in hisson, amen, and he has imputed
that righteousness to you.
And so I would say that thefirst, one of the first and
primary things of spiritualformation is constantly preach
the gospel to yourself,constantly remind yourself of
who you are in Christ and letyour identity rest in that, and
that fuels that heart of lovefor prayer, prayer.
(29:03):
I don't think spiritualformation at all makes any
progress apart from prayer, andthat we need to commune with God
.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
It's our technology with God.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That's right, and it's never gone out of style no,
it's never become irrelevant inany way and so we need to have
lives cultivating of prayer,personal prayer yeah, there's
something beneficial aboutspiritual formation in the group
, of praying with others, sure.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Community.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Community yeah, we need that.
The covenant community, thepeople of God.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's a spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It is, it is yeah absolutely Corporate worship
being together Spiritualpractice yeah, and so thinking
I've done many episodes on thesekind of individually, but
bringing it all together, wehave so many ways and avenues
that God, in his gracious, kindprovidence, has given to us and
so, scripture intake, read theBible, read the Bible in
(30:02):
community.
That's something that's.
It's a beautiful thing, man, Ilove my.
I love personal devotions,spending quiet time with the
Lord.
I love reading the Bible withother men and just hearing from
them and the insights and howGod's the feeder needs to be fed
.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Amen, all the time.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And I have found in my life some small group
discipleship groups have been atremendous means of spiritual
formation.
You find accountability.
I need that.
I need people in my life thatare asking me certain questions
and vice versa.
It's helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
It is.
I have a staff of nine,including myself would be 10.
So when we meet on Wednesday,the last part of our staff
meeting is the spiritualformation piece.
So yesterday we just reset andstarted some new stuff.
But I talked to you guys aboutJesus asking the question of the
disciples what do you seek?
And it came into that realm ofspiritual formation because we
(31:01):
are called and sometimes it'seasy to lose sight of that
calling in our spiritualformation.
It's not just I think I said itto you off the podcast too it's
not because it's easy inministry to you know, like Jesus
says, if you gain the wholeworld, you can lose your own
soul.
Sometimes you can gain thewhole church and lose your own
soul.
You know you lose your worth,you lose the health of your
psyche, you lose this wholething.
(31:21):
Oh yeah, and that happens toowith achievement.
So to ask those questions.
Going to Christ for spiritualformation is like you said
earlier too.
It's like the Christ mind thatwe're following Christ.
We're a follower of Christ.
I think that's a great place tostart, where people are like
hey, I like what I'm hearing,but where do I begin?
Jesus, because he's inviting usto that, when he says come on
(31:44):
to me, all that they're laboringand are heavy, you know,
burdened.
Yeah, this is he's dealing withreligious legalism.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
That's exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And then he tells them to take his yoke, his way.
I'm meek and humble of heartand you'll find rest.
So what is Jesus doing in hisspiritual formation?
In the Sermon on the Mount hegives four big ones in Matthew 6
.
It's interesting because it'sin the Sermon on the Mount.
He says generosity right.
(32:09):
I think prayer comes.
Fasting, I think comes afterthat, yeah, prayer and then
simplicity.
So if you really looked at itfrom that perspective, when I've
talked to him I was like, hmm,he highlights those.
Those aren't the only four.
But if you actually looked atthe ones that he gives you in
the Sermon on the Mount, thesefour are significant.
Wow, of course, throughout thegospel you're finding the
scripture being read,ministering to people.
You find all of those thingshighlighted Generosity, fasting,
(32:33):
prayer and simplicity.
Wow.
So that's a great place tostart.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, that's a good, that's really good, that could
change your world.
Matthew 6, go there and justimmerse yourself.
Yeah, and, like you said,sermon on the Mount, because
it's given a lot of things to do.
But that again just highlights,once again we're just kind of
hammering at home that spiritualformation is an outflow or it's
.
Once again we're just kind ofhammering at home that spiritual
formation is an outflow or it'sbased off our identity, and so
(33:01):
we do these things not to pleaseGod or to please God but not to
earn favor because we are inChrist, and I think that's again
just a helpful reminder.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I think that's beautiful, john.
I appreciate you even goingfrom that angle with the
identity piece, because I thinkthat is, and what we're saying
is we're the sons and daughtersof God.
He is our father and he's our.
I mean, they use Abba, papa.
Yeah, we want them to grow up.
(33:31):
We're nurturing them, caringfor them, but they have their
own identity.
But they're also who we are andwe're reflecting the Father as
well and becoming like Jesus.
He's our brother as the textsays in Hebrews, declaring the
name of Abba to us.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So it's like and I like what it says in Hebrews.
It says he's not ashamed tocall us brothers.
And if we turn the text onitself and just state it in the
other way?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
which I love.
That means he's proud to callyou brother.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah amen, that's beautiful he's proud of you and
I think again, as we started,our perspective on God will
determine our view of spiritualformation and God is more
glorious, more good, more lovingand compassionate.
Then we don't oversell that.
I don't think you can, no, youcan never think too high of
(34:21):
thoughts of God, right, and sohe's greater than all of our
mind.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And we see him in the most apex pinnacle.
Chief revelation is Jesus InChrist.
Yeah, so you see me, philip.
When you see the Father, whenyou see me, it's like this is
powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
And Jesus is the most lovely, the most gracious.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Thank you, God, for doing that so that we can have
this reality of Christ who isour Savior, he is us.
It's kind of like Hebrews keepscoming up in our spiritual
formation now, and then it goesback to the verse you used at
the beginning, 2 Corinthians3.18,.
We're beholding him.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
And it's amazing, we're actually not.
We don't even get one depictionof what Jesus looks like, but
yet, if you're a believer, youknow exactly what he looks like,
in the sense of what you do seeis beyond just this.
You know a visible picture thatyou need.
You don't you see it in thetext itself?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, and so you see him with your ears.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yes, we are ear witnesses of the resurrection
right.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
The eyewitnesses, created, ear witnesses, and we
are just going to be faithfullyproclaiming that to the next
generation and so forth.
And Romans 12, looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of
our faith, for the joy that wasset before him, endured the
cross, despising the shame,right and he is now.
And so, and connection withthat is lay aside your sin.
(35:48):
How do you defeat sin in yourlife?
If, by the Spirit Romans 8, 13,you put to death the deeds of
the flesh, you will live.
Defeat sin in your life If, bythe Spirit Romans 8, 13, you put
to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live.
Look to Jesus If you want tofight your sin battles on earth
horizontally, man, you mightthink you gain victory, but all
you might be doing is just kindof silencing it for a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
If you want to let go of that weight and that kind of
all works together.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I interrupted you.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
No, no, no, that's right, go for it it kind of
works together too, because youhave to read the scripture to
see Christ.
So then, when you're reading itenough that it reads you in
that spiritual formationpractice, you're now beginning
to say I desire this.
God begins to work in it.
You begin to know what thoseweights are, or sins are.
I think the sins and theweights there may be even
(36:35):
different.
Weight could be like shame,whereas sin could be the actual
behavior of something thatpleases God.
But now you're seeing it becausethe Bible is telling you.
So you're moving forward withthat and that's quite beautiful
to see that.
That is the biblical readingpiece playing out Again.
You've got to come to this inorder to see it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, spiritual formation is the pathway of
discipleship into becoming moreand more like Jesus, and as we
do that, the positive islikeness to Jesus and when that
is happening, the negative isthe sin falling away right and
desiring to grow and become amore holy man, woman, teenager,
(37:13):
wherever you are, and day by dayprogressing in that way, and
it's a gift of the Spirit withinus that's working.
And so we only scratched thesurface on this again, but I
think it's just a helpful topicjust to think about our own
Christian walk and whatmotivates us.
Why do we do the things we do?
Because there is we want to behonest.
(37:37):
We can fall into kind of likelegalism ruts.
We don't live there, but attimes our spiritual formation
turns into duties, not delights,and we just need sometimes to
be recalibrated and that's wherethe body of Christ, that's
where being in community, beingin fellowship, there's no
(37:57):
replacing that.
It's very hard to be formedspiritually in complete
isolation.
Yeah, and so we need Communityis important, we need each other
.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, it is, it's God's design, it's the genius of
the church, genesis 1, I'veheard it said once.
I think it was, I don't knowwhere I heard it, but it made a
good illustration out of thefact that when God's creating in
Genesis 1, you see it in thesingular, but when he creates us
, which is life, it becomes aconversation within the nature
of God.
So I thought you know, when Iheard that I was like,
interestingly enough it was aconversation that actually
(38:30):
brings life.
So you have to be able to,there has to be community Life
Together by Dietrich Bonhoefferis great to read.
It really is true.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Great.
Well, let's bring thisconversation to a close and just
remember spiritual formation.
It's a journey, it's not achecklist, okay, and one of the
great beauties of it is as weare being formed in Christ.
Oftentimes it's more obvious tothose around us than it is even
to ourselves, and I thinkthat's a breeding of humility in
(38:59):
us.
Yeah, amen.
So as you reflect on your ownwalk, just thinking, where might
I be leaning towards legalismversus that delight in Christ
and growing in His likeness?
And so I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You can reach out at questionsat pleasinggodpodcastorg.
And remember 1 Thessalonians4.3,.
(39:21):
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi and welcome back to the Pleasing God podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, Jonathan Soul,and once again I'm joined with
my special guest, Pastor MikeWoodward.
It's good to have you on again,Good to be here, Awesome, Great
.
So on this episode I want totalk about spiritual formation
(00:29):
as opposed to legalism and howdo those two things because
oftentimes we can kind ofconfuse them and just wanting to
kind of create someunderstanding of separate
categories and how spiritualformation actually breaks the
bonds of legalism and so forth.
So I know this is an importantsubject and I just hope it's
(00:52):
encouraging for listeners asthey kind of wrestle through,
you know, this growth andfighting against tendencies of
legalism.
We are spiritual beings, we arecreated in the image of God and
so there is a longing for thedivine.
It's no wonder why there's somany religions.
Right, you just see, mankind isspiritual.
(01:13):
But the question we want tothink about is as spiritual
beings, are we fosteringbiblical spirituality or are we
just following rules?
And, Mike, any experience justin your own life, maybe
personally, about this kind ofspiritual formation and legalism
?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, I mean it got into my mind when you were
talking, I know, early in myfaith because of my own trauma
background.
When I came into faith it wasbeautiful and I know that the
Lord saved me by His grace.
But I began to build up,without realizing, I think,
religious walls throughachievement-oriented
(01:51):
spirituality, which was kind ofmarked for me by unperfectionism
, to think I can achieve aspirituality, and it was a check
the box type of thing.
but it was actually a way for meto build up walls around my
real wounds you know, and tokind of like make a almost
confabulate the story ofsalvation by like God freed me
from all and like it was a greatyou know story to tell.
(02:12):
But for the early years of myfaith I was, I was hiding wounds
that God really wanted to getto.
I just know, and it wasn'tuntil I began to really
understand spiritual formationto the degree of it.
You said.
You know we were talking offthe podcast about.
It's a delight.
So we're dealing withspirituality that isn't
(02:34):
fear-oriented or guilt-orientedbut, it's love-oriented and
grace-oriented and that's abeautiful thing.
So, for me, I came into thatplace and I've continued to be
in that place and learning itstill to this day.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's great.
And so just to define some ofour terms in a clear sense, so
that listeners have anunderstanding of what we're
seeking to speak about spiritualformation.
In the simplest terms, I wantto say becoming more like Christ
.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Whereas legalism, we would say, is performance-based
righteousness, doing your bestand focus on your own
performance.
And so these are differentcategories.
But the challenge is that whenwe observe it, they can look
similar but they come from twodifferent hearts.
And when you talk about notfear-based or guilt-based, I'm
(03:24):
just reminded of just thedominant cultures in our world.
When you think about Genesis 3and the effects of sin, we talk
about the fall of mankind.
You could go to Genesis 3, andthree dominant worldviews emerge
from Genesis 3.
When Adam and Eve eat the fruit, you see fear, guilt and shame.
And it's no wonder that thoseare the kind of dominant
(03:47):
worldviews and cultures aroundour world.
Here in the West, we're a guiltand innocence culture, and so
this is why forensicjustification by faith is like
the doctrine that the churchlives and dies on because we
operate in this category ofguilt and innocence, and so what
speaks to us is declaredrighteous, not guilty.
Well, you have other biblicalpassages lives and dies on
because we operate in thiscategory of guilt and innocence,
and so what speaks to us isdeclared righteous, not guilty.
Well, you have other biblicalpassages about Christ bearing
(04:12):
our shame and taking our sin andour shame away and those speak
to cultures of honor and shame.
You'll get a lot of that inMiddle Eastern cultures, muslim,
jewish cultures as well.
And then there's the fear andpower cultures.
I think about what Paul says toTimothy we don't have a spirit
(04:33):
of fear, but of power andself-control and love and a
sound mind, and so in some oftribal cultures, african culture
, there's the fear and power.
This is often why the spiritualman is considered like the
powerful guy in the tribe andhow all of those things can give
(04:55):
way to a legalistic mindset oflike well, I do these things
because I feel guilty or becauseof shame.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I have a friend who is a woodmaker crafter.
He's a craftsman.
I would break every.
I would be doing demolition,sure, that's for sure.
I went to see his shop inProvidence a few weeks ago and
he's showing me around.
He's showing me all the toolsand the machines and I'm like
this stuff, if he left me inthere, I don't even know where I
would start.
(05:24):
Give me a hammer, maybe I cando something, yeah.
But I was walked over to thewall and he was showing me these
.
They were vices, is what hesaid.
But when I saw them I thoughtthe little part at the bottom,
and I can't explain it wellenough.
But what I saw was the littlepart, the bottom was the vice.
And then suddenly he goes no,the whole thing, and they were
all lined up.
And it was amazing because inthat moment I was and it goes to
(05:49):
what we're talking about.
You said mindset that peoplehave.
I've had it with legalism, butreally it's how we see things
and it's a perception thing,which is why Jesus is trying to
give us a new perception to seethe world differently, which
Paul uses the term in the oldEnglish was enlightened and the
thing is that what my friendssaw was different than what I
(06:11):
saw, but we were looking at thesame thing, but he had something
in him that I didn't have thatmade us see it differently.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
So when we look at spiritual formation, when you
talk Genesis 3, it's great whatyou said about the three things,
because what happens therethere's three I think there
would be three toxic things thatemerge A toxic view of me, yes,
a toxic view of God and Ireally do think.
A toxic view of the Bible, andI think this is where people
(06:44):
misunderstand and it is thereand right in the Scripture
telling us this is what's gonnahappen and you see God kind of
mercifully walking, helpingpeople.
But it really is to get us tosee God, the right way to see
ourselves, the way God sees us.
I should probably be writingthis down.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
This is my three-step .
We're doing the learning rightnow.
John, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And then to make sure we see the Bible the way God
says it should be read and seen,and let it read us that way.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
the Bible the way God says it should be read and seen
, and let it read us that way.
That's so.
I just hear John Calvin in thatstatement, because his premise
of his institute is like no Knowyourself, no God.
And so we know God in light ofourselves, we know ourselves in
light of God's revelation.
But I would say that there is anorder and the order you gave is
it's perspective of God thatputs right, perspective of self
(07:28):
and his word, and, I think, yourillustration of the clamps, the
vices.
We can see things differentlyand I guess the question would
be then what is the lens thatwe're looking through, lens that
we're looking through?
Is it motivated from guilt,shame or fear, or is it through
the power of the gospel thatunlocks those things, that
(07:56):
redeems us from all of thosethings?
Because Jesus, the true andbetter Adam, who came and
reversed the curse and set usfree to grow in his likeness.
While those things can stillhave their effects, they don't
have dominion over us, and sowhen we think about spiritual
formation and some biblicalpassages that come to mind in
(08:18):
what this looks like in ourminds, I think about Romans,
chapter 12, verse 2.
Paul says do not be conformedto this world, but be
transformed by the renewal ofyour mind, that by testing you
may discern what is the will ofGod, what is good and acceptable
and perfect.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
In parentheses see the clamps vices correctly.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yes, yeah exactly, and it's not conformity to this
world, but there's transform,this metamorphosis.
It's the caterpillar going intothe cocoon and coming out
completely different.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And there's a surrender in that, in Romans 12,
one that he says is ourreasonable act of worship, which
, thinking about this more, thismore Now, when people may hear
that looking at the vice on thewall, they'll see that, as I've
got to sacrifice myself, I'vegot to surrender myself.
But it may be very abstract,but if you really look at it,
(09:12):
it's really about vulnerabilitywith God.
It's about being able to betransparent with God, because to
be able to surrender myself asa reasonable act of worship
means I'm really, I'm doing whatJesus says.
If you want to enter into thekingdom, you've got to be like a
child.
Yeah, which a child doesn't?
You're not asking how is youryoungest child?
You have two twins that are?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, they're six weeks, are they?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
going to be getting a paper route in a year so they
can take care of their ownfeeding.
No, Right.
Because they are.
Right, they are ultimately,they're gonna be dependent in a
way that's free.
And this really matters inspiritual formation that we are
(09:51):
not childish but childlike tothe degree that we're
opened-armed, like when Jesuspulls a little child in the
midst.
Imagine being there when hepulls a child in the midst and
said this is what you need.
And there's a little boylooking at all of them looking
around.
There's a dependency that is soresting in parental love, but
there's also a vulnerabilitythere and I think this is a
(10:11):
necessary thing.
That's the shift that canhappen.
I think a lot of times, a lotof people are in the legalistic
phase because of our pride,because of our wrong view of God
, wrong view of ourselves, wrongview of scriptures.
Perhaps and I'm not saying andthere are brothers and sisters
out there that are caught inthis and we have to be so
merciful to them.
But I think that we have tounderstand that there's a
(10:33):
vulnerability that's necessaryin spirituality.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
It is the great paradox of the Christian faith.
Here's another illustration Ina past life I got to play golf,
and one of the things about golfis aim left to go right, aim
right to go left.
It's backwards.
Backward illustration, tighterto, and so everything's
(11:01):
backwards and it's against yournatural thinking.
And when we think aboutspiritual formation, when you're
talking about surrender andliving sacrifice, to surrender
is freedom and to try to hold onis bondage when Jesus says come
(11:22):
and die that you might live.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Paradox.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
There it is, there it is, and so legalism is trying
to just hold on, because that'swhat might seem natural.
I mean, legalism is I wanna becareful and be gracious.
I don't think legalism is anerror.
I think, if we get it down tothe core, it's almost another
religion, just because itreplaces the freedom that we
(11:47):
have in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
It's the go back to Genesis 3, it's the fig leaves
in the narrative.
It is it's me covering my ownguilt 100%.
So it's like that's the firstreligion, the religion of the
fig.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yes, you know it's.
I need to try better.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, I need to do better, and God in the story, in
the narrative, he clothes them.
Yeah, that's right, that'sright.
So think about the grace whicha lot of people wouldn't even
see.
They'll God's still graciouswith them and clothing them.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And even before he clothes them, he looks at the
serpent and says the seed of thewoman will bruise the head.
It's prophecy.
Yeah, here is Jesus.
And so, before even theconsequences fully fell and the
curse falls, god preaches thegospel of victory.
And so it's always beensalvation by faith and the
(12:40):
promised one to come.
And then he closed them becauseGod's the author of true
religion and true spirituality.
So we have this call to renewal, another passage of scripture,
just understanding spiritualformation 2 Corinthians 3.18,.
And we all, with unveiled face,beholding the glory of the Lord
(13:02):
, are being transformed into thesame image, from one degree of
glory to another.
For this comes from the Lord,who is the Spirit.
So we have renewal, we havetransformation.
It's not moral reformation yeah, we don't need to, just it's
not achievement yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
you know, paul says in first timothy, a passage I
continue to.
Honestly I feel like it'sbecome more of a ministry verse
for me in the last few years.
But he says to timothy says hey, I asked you to stay in ephesus
.
Confront those that areteaching the false, wrong
doctrine, a contrary doctrine,yeah, and he says to him.
He says and telling him to stopgetting caught up with
meaningless discussions aboutpedigrees and genealogies and
(13:44):
mythos.
He uses it later in 2 Timothy,but he tells him.
He says these things don't leadto the right kind of
stewardship of faith which Ithink he's talking.
He's talking spiritualformation and he says there he
goes, the aim or the goal of ourteaching is love out of a pure
heart, unfeigned faith, aconscience that's not defiled.
(14:04):
Yeah, this is honestly, when Ithink about spiritual formation
a lot lately, because I see alot of people getting caught up
in the wrong again.
It's the wrong way of seeingsomething when Paul's saying,
hey, that's all knowledge thatthey can't even be solid on.
Here's the aim or the goal ofthe teaching, of the
(14:25):
commandments, of the clearteachings of Christ, the New
Testament, the things that wecan know.
Here it is, and what's the goalof it Love, not a spiritual
trophy yeah, that's right or aself-achievement which is
painful, and that's why I thinka lot of people do it.
I think a lot of people do it.
I think a lot of legalism isthere to hide or cover a pain or
a wound.
It's very easy to do.
And here you have Paul sayinghey, it's about.
(14:46):
The goal is love, yeah that'sright, that's right.
But when 2 Corinthians 3, theword beholding there, I think,
is the key, because you'retalking about this continual
action and I'm sure you're goingto go here, john, because
you're smart as a whip uh, thewhat is?
What?
Does that even mean to be smartas a whip?
I gotta look that up, actually,I I never thought they were.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean it strikes.
I would think a whip couldreally hit it right, right,
straight.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
so I'm thinking you, you, obviously you know you're
saying things are right on point, sure, but beholding is like
this continual action.
So I know you're going to go tothis because we're talking the
knowledge, yeah, it's this, it'sthis, it's this and we're
basically explaining what thevice is.
We're talking still of thatshop piece or this is how you
play golf.
You ever disc golfed?
Same principles apply.
(15:29):
I just played for the firsttime on Monday, shoulders sore.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Same principles, bro, but how does a person in
spiritual formation nowunderstand that it is love?
That is the goal.
We are going to be transformed,we are to renew our mind, we
are going to behold.
How do I sit and find thatplace?
These are the spiritualpractices.
(15:52):
Yeah, these are yourdisciplines.
You were going here.
I know you were going here.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, so we have.
We have we established ourfinish line, our goal.
What are we, what are weseeking Then?
(16:16):
Yeah, because we're not talkingpractically yet, you know,
we're still talking the abstract, like renewal.
I mean practically speaking,when we look at what spiritual
formation is and we're talkinggrowth and transformation, it's
becoming less like me and morelike Jesus, and it's progressive
(16:39):
sanctification as a theologicalterm, and to visualize that, my
mind goes to Galatians 5.
And in the most practical sense, the fruit of the Spirit is
love, joy, peace, patience,kindness, goodness, faithfulness
, gentleness, self-control.
I love that.
It's singular, it's the onecluster, right, it's the fruits.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's a cluster of grapes, right, and I want it all
.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And I do I desire it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And I think, even when we talk about spiritual
formation, is, the more we growlike Christ, the more we desire
Christ.
And so when we talk aboutbeholding.
Even there it is looking toJesus.
And where do we look to Jesusand how do we commune with Jesus
?
What are the means forformation?
Don Whitney writes a great bookon spiritual disciplines for
(17:31):
the Christian life, and I meanhis premise is these are the
habits that we can implement inour life for that formation, Not
that we are in bondage to them,right.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But they're liberating.
They're like the breaking up ofthe ground, of the soil, but we
can't make the seed grow oremerge.
God does that.
But it's like working inconsonance with God by me
opening my heart.
These are the spiritualpractices.
This is a beautiful thing andthat's why it does require
people to step outside ofcertain.
(18:05):
You know, in Fowler's stages offaith he talks about People
recognize God, they get intodiscipleship and then they start
serving and people stay there.
You know, they stay in thesethings.
Those are beautiful, but thenthey hit a trial or they hit a
dry period, they hit a wall, andthe church at times doesn't
always know how to deal withthat.
(18:25):
It may even be a period ofdoubt, but it's in that moment
where this is where growth canactually take place, because
you've got to step out of thesethree realms and now it's time
to really connect with God andmove into that place.
And it's interesting becausewhen you say Galatians, I didn't
know if you were going to sayGalatians 4.19, which is
(18:47):
probably one of the less versesused for spiritual formation, as
I've heard it and here we aretalking about legalism Galatians
is a letter about legalismthere it is yeah.
And he tells them in Galatians,4.19,.
I'll read it from the ESVbecause when you hear it it's
(19:07):
one of the defining verses ofspiritual formation.
He says here in 4.19, he saysmy little children.
So he sees them, as you know,in this fatherly sense, for whom
I am again in the anguish ofchildbirth, until Christ is
formed in you.
Wow, that's great, you know.
So I wish I could be presentwith you now and change my tone
if I'm perplexed about you.
So he sees them as people whoalready began this process.
(19:31):
Why are you putting yourselfback into this bondage?
Christ is being formed in us.
You know, and that's a greatverse to say, and actually some
interpreters of the past theywould call this.
In the Greek it would be theTheotokos or the Christos Tokos.
The Christ bearer, like Christ,is being birthed in us in that
(19:53):
sense.
Pretty wonderful theology.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
We don't you know, maybe spend a little time on it
Similar to theosis, but that's awhole different category yeah,
different different, differentcategory yeah.
But you think you know evenimage of God and likeness and
reflecting Christ in ourChristian lives.
I mean that Christ being formedin you.
(20:19):
I mean that is what coming tofaith and growing as a disciple
of Jesus Christ is a follower.
And I think sometimes we evenget the terms Christian and
disciple a little.
I'm a Christian, that's a noun,I'm a disciple, that's a verb
right.
And I am an active follower ofJesus.
So in doing so I become moreand more like the one I'm
(20:41):
following, and so then again, westill need to kind of connect
the dots here though, like howdo I do that?
And so, ultimately, I just wantto kind of take some of the
spiritual disciplines that weshould and don't hear the word
discipline and think duty andlegalism.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, these are the means or habits of the heart
I've heard it said that waydisciplines that we should and
don't hear the word disciplineand think duty and legalism, no,
that these are the means orhabits of the heart.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I've heard it said that way.
That's a good way to put it,because it is heart.
It is from a heart of love Godhas.
I am renewed, redeemed,ransomed, and as a result of
this I mean the Spirit dwellswithin us.
Amen.
The Spirit delights in thethings of God.
He is God right.
So we think about practicalsteps for spiritual formation.
I think, as we kind of comefull circle on this, we need the
(21:31):
shift in perspective.
We need to shift from focusingon our performance to our
relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yes, and there it is.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's focusing on knowing Christ.
Right now we're going throughin our church, we're taking a
group through knowing God andit's just wonderful we're
sitting there.
Great work.
We're reflecting on this.
Last week we were talking aboutGod's unchangingness, his
immutability, his majesty andeven beholding God in his word
(22:04):
and his attributes, beholdingChrist in his actions and his
works.
That has power to transform theheart.
So it's focusing on knowingChrist, not just doing for
Christ.
Let our actions flow downstreamfrom the gospel.
(22:25):
So in our service, I mean thosethings come as a result of so
understanding we do based off ofidentity, and it's who I am in
Christ.
My identity determines myaction, not my action determines
my identity.
There's the switch up onlegalism.
Legalism says my actiondetermines who I am.
The one who is growing inspiritual formation says because
(22:48):
I am, I do.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
You know, one of the things that happened and it
connects to what you're sayingwith the two see in the church,
privileged Shepherd, I wanted togive some form of a solid creed
about this, about what theBible— when we were using Romans
8, 29 and 30, 31, and then wewere using Galatians 4 and
trying to teach and I was tryingto get something that would—it
(23:11):
wasn't the mission statement,but it was some form of a
creedal representation.
And you know, I years playedaround with this and that and
tried to get it.
So I, because I wanted peopleto understand this ultimate
truth, that ultimately, we'rebecoming like Christ, that this
is God's ultimate.
You know, when you see Romans 8, 29, you know most people quote
28 without realizing it'sconnected to 29,.
(23:33):
You know saying, you know weknow all things work together
for the good to them who loveGod, to them who love God, to
them who call to the calling ofHis purpose whom God foreknew,
he also predestined.
They're going together becausewhat he's saying is everything
that you're going to go throughin your life circumstances.
God will use it and he can workwith it and change us into what
he wants us to be.
One time I used thisillustration.
(23:53):
It became comical, but ithelped me.
My wife makes these greatcookies.
She's a, she loves the bake,she's a great baker and, uh, she
makes this one cookie and Ijust love this sugar cookie.
At christmas, I was like whatis in this?
When she told me theingredients one of the
ingredients I would never eatalone it's just not my thing
which was sour cream.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Oh, I was gonna say cottage cheese, yeah, yeah even
that might be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
So, but there's.
When she said sour cream.
But then I looked at theingredients salt, white flour,
you know, sugar you see themseparate like whoa, but when you
put them together the bakerputs them together they make a
really good cookie.
So I always say that aboutRomans 8, 28, that this is what
this text is really telling usthat God can take the salt and
the sour cream and the sugar inour life and if we're trusting
(24:38):
him and surrender to him, he'llmake us into one good cookie.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And so I kept wrestling with these creedal
things and I realized there's noway for me it's gonna be
legalistic in a sense, or it'sgonna be just a plain statement
for me to tell people this Ourchurch today uses a prayer and
we don't use written prayers.
We know the Psalms are writtenprayers, but we use a prayer
that's very succinct in ourchurch and we pray it.
(25:03):
I preach on it once a year andwe have it on a card in our
Bibles.
We have a card with it and it'sa prayer we pray.
Sometimes we pray it togetherpublicly once in a while.
It's not something we pray in arote sense, but it's our
church's sacred prayer andbecause I found that it couldn't
be the spiritual formation Ididn't want it to be a statement
(25:23):
.
It needed to be something thatwas active in prayer, and it's.
The prayer is Lord, make me amore awake, compassionate,
christ-like human being, wherethe inner life of Christ is
being formed in my inner life.
That's fantastic.
That's the prayer of our churchthat we've had for the last
three years.
That's great and we pray.
Like I said, I preach on itonce a year, so people will use
it and have it.
But it was basically a way forthem and we teach them how, what
(25:45):
all the biblical pieces of itis to give them that first point
to say God does wanna do thisin your life.
It starts with prayer and thenit opens the door to what we're
talking about now the habits ofthe heart.
What are these?
And I think that we come intothe place of what our
personalities are, because Idon't think everybody's going to
always practice the same thingsmore.
(26:07):
I have found a groove thatworks with me.
I don't impose that on otherpeople, though.
I want them to make sure theyexplore that Most people never
want to be in solitude orsilence because then they're out
of control.
Whitney riffs on that one.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, because we do need that,especially in this culture, you
know, in the dated culture todaydistraction, but yeah.
So these are some of those, andthese disciplines enable us to
(26:29):
encounter God because theysanctify or make sacred the
presence and the spaces we're in.
Yes, by knowing that we canencounter.
God as a Christian, god'sdwelling within us, christ's
dwelling within us.
So for me it's.
I sit quietly before the Lord,I call it.
In the morning I sing a psalm.
I read very slowly, withoutcommentary or study.
(26:50):
I read the passage of the Bible.
I journal is one other area.
I like to be contemplative, tothe sense of walking and praying
.
So these are some of mypractices that have helped me.
Now some of them have helped inhealing my spiritual wounds, or
inner wounds, like sittingquietly with a text for a long
(27:11):
time, trying to understandChrist's love, 1 Timothy 4.
Those are things that havehelped me in those regards.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, that's great, and yeah, we're not prescribing,
so to speak of like, do thesethings follow this list, because
now we're being spiritualformation.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Legalists and we don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, right, but we are saying here are practices
from our own lives, things thatwe glean from the Scriptures
that have been useful andthere's nothing new under the
sun.
But we also we do recognizepeople are uniquely created in
the image of God.
Different personalities,different temperaments.
You know what works?
(27:53):
Uh, we know are tried and truemethods but it might look.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It might look different for people.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You might be a, a night person.
I mean, you can't, you don'twake up till 10 o'clock.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, my wife's like that.
She wants to read the Bible.
She was telling me she read itat night yeah.
You know I love the dawn.
I got up this morning.
I was at the church at five 30.
I love going in there.
There's nothing you knowmystical happening, but I just
need this silent, simple space,yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And I think what we can do is be descriptive of
things that work.
That means, I would say, meansof grace for spiritual formation
.
And then, you know, theencouragement to listeners is to
seek to implement some of thesethings in your life.
It starts with the paradigmshift of thinking, because
you're not doing to please God.
(28:40):
God is perfectly pleased in hisson, amen, and he has imputed
that righteousness to you.
And so I would say that thefirst, one of the first and
primary things of spiritualformation is constantly preach
the gospel to yourself,constantly remind yourself of
who you are in Christ and letyour identity rest in that, and
that fuels that heart of lovefor prayer, prayer.
(29:03):
I don't think spiritualformation at all makes any
progress apart from prayer, andthat we need to commune with God
.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
It's our technology with God.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That's right, and it's never gone out of style no,
it's never become irrelevant inany way and so we need to have
lives cultivating of prayer,personal prayer yeah, there's
something beneficial aboutspiritual formation in the group
, of praying with others, sure.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Community.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Community yeah, we need that.
The covenant community, thepeople of God.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's a spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It is, it is yeah absolutely Corporate worship
being together Spiritualpractice yeah, and so thinking
I've done many episodes on thesekind of individually, but
bringing it all together, wehave so many ways and avenues
that God, in his gracious, kindprovidence, has given to us and
so, scripture intake, read theBible, read the Bible in
(30:02):
community.
That's something that's.
It's a beautiful thing, man, Ilove my.
I love personal devotions,spending quiet time with the
Lord.
I love reading the Bible withother men and just hearing from
them and the insights and howGod's the feeder needs to be fed
.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Amen, all the time.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And I have found in my life some small group
discipleship groups have been atremendous means of spiritual
formation.
You find accountability.
I need that.
I need people in my life thatare asking me certain questions
and vice versa.
It's helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
It is.
I have a staff of nine,including myself would be 10.
So when we meet on Wednesday,the last part of our staff
meeting is the spiritualformation piece.
So yesterday we just reset andstarted some new stuff.
But I talked to you guys aboutJesus asking the question of the
disciples what do you seek?
And it came into that realm ofspiritual formation because we
(31:01):
are called and sometimes it'seasy to lose sight of that
calling in our spiritualformation.
It's not just I think I said itto you off the podcast too it's
not because it's easy inministry to you know, like Jesus
says, if you gain the wholeworld, you can lose your own
soul.
Sometimes you can gain thewhole church and lose your own
soul.
You know you lose your worth,you lose the health of your
psyche, you lose this wholething.
(31:21):
Oh yeah, and that happens toowith achievement.
So to ask those questions.
Going to Christ for spiritualformation is like you said
earlier too.
It's like the Christ mind thatwe're following Christ.
We're a follower of Christ.
I think that's a great place tostart, where people are like
hey, I like what I'm hearing,but where do I begin?
Jesus, because he's inviting usto that, when he says come on
(31:44):
to me, all that they're laboringand are heavy, you know,
burdened.
Yeah, this is he's dealing withreligious legalism.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
That's exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And then he tells them to take his yoke, his way.
I'm meek and humble of heartand you'll find rest.
So what is Jesus doing in hisspiritual formation?
In the Sermon on the Mount hegives four big ones in Matthew 6
.
It's interesting because it'sin the Sermon on the Mount.
He says generosity right.
(32:09):
I think prayer comes.
Fasting, I think comes afterthat, yeah, prayer and then
simplicity.
So if you really looked at itfrom that perspective, when I've
talked to him I was like, hmm,he highlights those.
Those aren't the only four.
But if you actually looked atthe ones that he gives you in
the Sermon on the Mount, thesefour are significant.
Wow, of course, throughout thegospel you're finding the
scripture being read,ministering to people.
You find all of those thingshighlighted Generosity, fasting,
(32:33):
prayer and simplicity.
Wow.
So that's a great place tostart.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, that's a good, that's really good, that could
change your world.
Matthew 6, go there and justimmerse yourself.
Yeah, and, like you said,sermon on the Mount, because
it's given a lot of things to do.
But that again just highlights,once again we're just kind of
hammering at home that spiritualformation is an outflow or it's
.
Once again we're just kind ofhammering at home that spiritual
formation is an outflow or it'sbased off our identity, and so
(33:01):
we do these things not to pleaseGod or to please God but not to
earn favor because we are inChrist, and I think that's again
just a helpful reminder.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I think that's beautiful, john.
I appreciate you even goingfrom that angle with the
identity piece, because I thinkthat is, and what we're saying
is we're the sons and daughtersof God.
He is our father and he's our.
I mean, they use Abba, papa.
Yeah, we want them to grow up.
(33:31):
We're nurturing them, caringfor them, but they have their
own identity.
But they're also who we are andwe're reflecting the Father as
well and becoming like Jesus.
He's our brother as the textsays in Hebrews, declaring the
name of Abba to us.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So it's like and I like what it says in Hebrews.
It says he's not ashamed tocall us brothers.
And if we turn the text onitself and just state it in the
other way?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
which I love.
That means he's proud to callyou brother.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah amen, that's beautiful he's proud of you and
I think again, as we started,our perspective on God will
determine our view of spiritualformation and God is more
glorious, more good, more lovingand compassionate.
Then we don't oversell that.
I don't think you can, no, youcan never think too high of
(34:21):
thoughts of God, right, and sohe's greater than all of our
mind.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And we see him in the most apex pinnacle.
Chief revelation is Jesus InChrist.
Yeah, so you see me, philip.
When you see the Father, whenyou see me, it's like this is
powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
And Jesus is the most lovely, the most gracious.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Thank you, God, for doing that so that we can have
this reality of Christ who isour Savior, he is us.
It's kind of like Hebrews keepscoming up in our spiritual
formation now, and then it goesback to the verse you used at
the beginning, 2 Corinthians3.18,.
We're beholding him.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
And it's amazing, we're actually not.
We don't even get one depictionof what Jesus looks like, but
yet, if you're a believer, youknow exactly what he looks like,
in the sense of what you do seeis beyond just this.
You know a visible picture thatyou need.
You don't you see it in thetext itself?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, and so you see him with your ears.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yes, we are ear witnesses of the resurrection
right.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
The eyewitnesses, created, ear witnesses, and we
are just going to be faithfullyproclaiming that to the next
generation and so forth.
And Romans 12, looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of
our faith, for the joy that wasset before him, endured the
cross, despising the shame,right and he is now.
And so, and connection withthat is lay aside your sin.
(35:48):
How do you defeat sin in yourlife?
If, by the Spirit Romans 8, 13,you put to death the deeds of
the flesh, you will live.
Defeat sin in your life If, bythe Spirit Romans 8, 13, you put
to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live.
Look to Jesus If you want tofight your sin battles on earth
horizontally, man, you mightthink you gain victory, but all
you might be doing is just kindof silencing it for a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
If you want to let go of that weight and that kind of
all works together.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I interrupted you.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
No, no, no, that's right, go for it it kind of
works together too, because youhave to read the scripture to
see Christ.
So then, when you're reading itenough that it reads you in
that spiritual formationpractice, you're now beginning
to say I desire this.
God begins to work in it.
You begin to know what thoseweights are, or sins are.
I think the sins and theweights there may be even
(36:35):
different.
Weight could be like shame,whereas sin could be the actual
behavior of something thatpleases God.
But now you're seeing it becausethe Bible is telling you.
So you're moving forward withthat and that's quite beautiful
to see that.
That is the biblical readingpiece playing out Again.
You've got to come to this inorder to see it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, spiritual formation is the pathway of
discipleship into becoming moreand more like Jesus, and as we
do that, the positive islikeness to Jesus and when that
is happening, the negative isthe sin falling away right and
desiring to grow and become amore holy man, woman, teenager,
(37:13):
wherever you are, and day by dayprogressing in that way, and
it's a gift of the Spirit withinus that's working.
And so we only scratched thesurface on this again, but I
think it's just a helpful topicjust to think about our own
Christian walk and whatmotivates us.
Why do we do the things we do?
Because there is we want to behonest.
(37:37):
We can fall into kind of likelegalism ruts.
We don't live there, but attimes our spiritual formation
turns into duties, not delights,and we just need sometimes to
be recalibrated and that's wherethe body of Christ, that's
where being in community, beingin fellowship, there's no
(37:57):
replacing that.
It's very hard to be formedspiritually in complete
isolation.
Yeah, and so we need Communityis important, we need each other
.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, it is, it's God's design, it's the genius of
the church, genesis 1, I'veheard it said once.
I think it was, I don't knowwhere I heard it, but it made a
good illustration out of thefact that when God's creating in
Genesis 1, you see it in thesingular, but when he creates us
, which is life, it becomes aconversation within the nature
of God.
So I thought you know, when Iheard that I was like,
interestingly enough it was aconversation that actually
(38:30):
brings life.
So you have to be able to,there has to be community Life
Together by Dietrich Bonhoefferis great to read.
It really is true.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Great.
Well, let's bring thisconversation to a close and just
remember spiritual formation.
It's a journey, it's not achecklist, okay, and one of the
great beauties of it is as weare being formed in Christ.
Oftentimes it's more obvious tothose around us than it is even
to ourselves, and I thinkthat's a breeding of humility in
(38:59):
us.
Yeah, amen.
So as you reflect on your ownwalk, just thinking, where might
I be leaning towards legalismversus that delight in Christ
and growing in His likeness?
And so I want to thank you forlistening to the Pleasing God
Podcast.
If you have any questions, I'dlove to hear from you.
You can reach out at questionsat pleasinggodpodcastorg.
And remember 1 Thessalonians4.3,.
(39:21):
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
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