March 24, 2025 • 34 mins
When criticism arrives (and it will), how should followers of Christ respond? Pastor Mike Woodward joins host Jonathan Sole for a powerful conversation about navigating the thorny territory of criticism with biblical wisdom and grace.
Drawing from decades of pastoral experience, Mike reveals his proven framework for understanding critics: controllers seeking power, complainers expressing unmet expectations, and constructive voices offering genuine help. This distinction becomes crucial for determining how to respond effectively rather than reactively. The conversation explores biblical examples like Jesus, who silenced critics with truth rather than defensiveness, and Nehemiah, who refused to be distracted from his God-given vision.
The discussion gets refreshingly candid as both hosts share personal stories of criticism that stung deeply—from anonymous letters to public challenges. Mike reveals a profound personal realization: "I would distinguish my criticisms differently... but yet we're all the same." This insight led him to create a prayer approach that transformed how he views critics.
Practical wisdom abounds as they unpack how to respond with grace even when your internal reaction screams otherwise. Mike shares his leadership principles for navigating criticism during times of change: "What's first or priority? What to watch for? What to wait for?" Meanwhile, Jonathan offers the sobering reminder that "good leaders never offend unintentionally."
Whether in ministry, the workplace, or family relationships, this episode equips you with biblical strategies for handling criticism: listen carefully, seek accountability, respond in love, pray for critics by name, and keep moving forward. Mike notes that criticism is sometimes "God's means of chiseling away my pride." This conversation will help you see criticism not just as something to endure but potentially as a divine tool for your spiritual growth.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi and welcome back to the Pleasing God podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, jonathan Soul,and on this episode I have a
special guest with me, pastorMike Woodward, who is the lead
pastor at Ocean State BaptistChurch.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, Ocean State just voted a name change.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Oh, okay, Last month.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Church of the Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Okay, when does that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It's in the process now.
They voted Okay.
And the inside, outside, allthat stuff's taking place over
the next few months.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Nice Great A.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Christian community following Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Amen, yeah, that's great.
A Christian community followingJesus.
Amen, yeah, that reflectsexactly who we are and what we
desire to be Well, interesting,with that name change, this
topic might have some.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Most definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
For sure.
So on this episode we want totalk about dealing with critics
and responding with wisdom andgrace, and so let me just throw
a question out to you, mike howdo you handle criticism?
I mean, pastors don't getcriticized, but if they did
right, how do you deal withcriticism professionally in the
(01:17):
ministry and just generally as aperson?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I mean.
The comical answer I want tosay is run, you know, or crawl
up into a ball.
The comical answer I want tosay is run, you know, or crawl
up into a ball.
Right at times I handlecriticism today always, I think,
out of the gate.
It always is looking at what itactually is, because I feel
(01:39):
that criticism that I've beenthrough over the years has three
dimensions to them, and youhave critics that are
controllers, critics that arecomplainers and critics that are
constructive.
So it always is the source,because I mean, if somebody
comes that I know loves me,cares about me, cares about the
ministry, cares about Christ'sglory, and they are offering
input, it may be criticism butit may not be negative, and I'm
open to that.
I think I can learn from allthree categories, though.
(02:00):
So I always am thinking like,immediately, it's just in my
mind to look at, consider thesource of what it is.
You know, controllers arecriticizing because they're
seeking some kind of power,they're not happy about this,
and those folks I try to makemyself unavailable to be honest
with you.
I've learned to just realizethey're going to say, what
(02:22):
they're going to say, but I'vegot to have God's agenda.
I got to know what God's visionis, especially as a pastor.
If I'm being criticized forthose decisions, I know I make
mistakes as well, so I'm goingto be open to listen to that.
But I do find there are peoplewho are criticizing merely
because, as I joke around andsay, they are people who were
saved in crabapple country andbaptized in pickle juice.
So I see that immediately and Iknow the source.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Sure, sure, yeah, and I think that's important to
think about of just withcriticism kind of.
First, those categories arefantastic too.
And considering the source isthis a serial offender, is this
a brother or a sister who lovesme, loves Jesus?
(03:05):
And I know, in my own life too,handling criticism, I want to,
when in doubt, err on the sideof charity.
And I don't want to initiallyhave a hermeneutic of suspicion
with any form of criticism,although inwardly I still might
and I want to kind of even checkmy own heart about that but
(03:26):
really kind of accepting it witha sense of humility of, like
you might be, your criticismmight be 95% wrong, off base
with selfish motivation andintention, but there might be a
kernel of truth in that.
And what can I learn, even frommaybe you with not the best
intentions that I could evaluate, or maybe that was a blind spot
(03:48):
that you could have hit me witha little more grace, but you
still showed me something.
And just trying to, withhumility, navigate that, I think
I've done it.
For me personally, I've done adecent job of outwardly handling
criticism well and theninwardly replaying it a lot and
it's like okay, I need to get myhead, my heart, my hands all
(04:13):
aligned with that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and I think that perspective, especially in
a pastoral role, we have to know.
I think it was Thomas Akempisthat said vain is the help of
man, and that idea is that it'snot constant, it's not
sustainable.
So criticisms happen, but Ineed to make sure my focus is on
God.
So I agree with you prayer,because I can imagine in my own
(04:38):
mind many of those morningsreplaying something in my own
head, trying to process things.
But learning how to pray,learning how to think about what
Paul is saying, Am I seeking toplease God in this?
Am I seeking Him and His gloryand being open to say did I make
the right decision there orwhat is it that's being
(05:00):
criticized exactly?
Is it something I can change?
Is it something that they'rejust being petty about, which is
more of a controller thing?
The controllers, I don't think,have our best in mind.
I think that they just it's apower issue, it's a power
struggle.
Um, and I was telling youearlier, uh, I have a list that
I keep on my wall in my officewhere, uh, it's a confronting
controllers and negative critics, and the top it says pay more
(05:23):
attention to your creator thanyour critics, but it will happen
.
Don't speak their language.
I think I'm quoting Taylor Swifthere.
But haters gonna hate.
I don't think she originatedthat.
But some can only be dealt withthrough prayer and fasting,
because I've been through thatwith some of the issues that
I've dealt with.
Ministry trial-wise.
When navigating through change,transition or difficulties,
(05:45):
expect antagonism, Like ifyou're making changes and God's
giving you vision, the wholescope of scripture tells you
we're going to face that.
Isn't it funny how Moses, youknow he goes and tells all the
people in the beginning of thechapter says God has told me to
come to you.
And it says at the end of thatchapter it says like and all the
elders bowed their head Withinanother chapter they hate his
(06:05):
guts and they want him out.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So it's like I think we have what have you done for
me lately?
We?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
have a biblical record here.
Silence is an answer too.
Don't let the conflict be aboutyou.
It's about God's vision.
Direct them to God, don'tbecome a victim.
And then I have the last one.
I had added over time, set upstructure in leadership to block
controllers and negativecritics.
So I have a gate of people thatguard me the deacons, the
(06:32):
elders, some of my staff members.
They understand that too, andwe do it for each other.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's great, and a lot of the principles there can
translate to beyond, justpastoral ministry, just in life
or in your profession, whateverit is, knowing that in this life
there will be trials andtribulations, there will be
critics.
And when we think aboutbiblical examples of dealing
with criticism, we referenceMoses.
(06:58):
I think about Jesus and inMatthew, chapter 22, the
Pharisees are coming andplotting against him.
They come with flattery first.
Yeah, beware of the flatterertoo.
The people that sing yourhighest praises can also turn
around on you quick.
There's red flags on both sides.
And so they come.
(07:19):
We know you're a good teacher,but they're trying to trick him
and they're trying to criticizehim, and there's a whole list of
sabotage events against him.
They send the Sadducees aboutmarriage in heaven, trip him up.
Yeah, should we pay taxes?
I mean, what should we do?
And they're just trying to geteverything.
(07:39):
They're critics and they havebad intentions, and when we look
at Jesus how he responded tocritics, it was with truth and
wisdom.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Timely relevant holy speech as well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, and just like your categories there, he didn't
get to their level and he didnot respond.
Evil for evil, of course, butthat truth and wisdom, he
silenced his accusers and hiscritics and I think, as we're
committed to wherever our sphereof influence in life is
(08:14):
committed to following the modelthat Jesus lays out, we can be
able to navigate and respond tocriticism without sin.
And I think that's veryimportant because, man inwardly,
my flesh, yeah, we want to bedefensive, we want to react.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We have but some of the stuff that people sometimes
bring to us.
We might even be saying aboutourselves to God, yeah, and yet
when somebody else says it, wedon't want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That could happen too , you reminded me of a Spurgeon
quote.
He said something along thelines if anyone speaks evil of
you, just recognize you're worsethan they said.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, exactly as Spurgeon could say Keep your
feet on the ground, man.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, don't worry, you are worse than that.
Paul's another example of howhe faced opposition but remained
steadfast.
Think about the Corinthianletters, especially I mean the
church in Corinth 2 Corinthians,10.10,.
You know he's dealing with hiscritics and he says concerning
(09:14):
them.
They say his letters areweighty and strong, but his
bodily presence is weak and hisspeech is of no account and
they're just dissing him.
And you kind of see Paul'sdefense of his ministry and I
think there's a way that we candefend but not become defensive.
Um, and I think paul gives usan example there in second
(09:37):
corinthians.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's transparent you know, it's like I'm doing this
and it's almost like he's almostwriting to god in that text not
to them, because god's hiswitness that you know.
Here's what I'm doing.
Here's how I'm doing.
Here's who I've been he doesn'tcare which I think is another
large piece with in thisscripture with paul to.
Something I've thought a lotabout through the years and I've
written about is that and it'shumbling to think of it because
(10:02):
it also is about that source,but it's also I noticed there
were some people who criticizedI didn't care at all, it didn't
stick to me, it didn't affect me, but yet there were others that
did.
And over time I began to kind ofpay attention to this and it
really brought me to this pointin my own journal writing to
really examine this Like what'sreally the issue here?
Why did I care so much aboutthis?
(10:23):
And it wasn't because of therelationship Okay, because many
of the people on this side.
It may have been like Paulwould say in Galatians, that he
didn't care about those whosupposedly were leaders of
influence.
He didn't care one minute.
He was there to tell the truth.
And I started writing about thefact that I needed to see us all
as worms and I was like Ishouldn't.
(10:43):
Just because these people don'thave the clout or the political
clout or the financial clout,there was something I was doing
in placing them like in thepsalm.
I read this morning in mydevotion time, psalm 39, that
men, we're like a breath, butyet I would distinguish my
criticisms differently too, andI started to say I ought to see
it all in that spectrum and thengo to God.
(11:04):
I want to hear it, but I letsome of it bother me.
But yet there's people I won't,but yet we're all the same.
I don't know if that is toodeep, but transparently, I wrote
a lot about that in my journalin the last several months where
I was like it can't be likethat.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, I know that I opened up joking saying pastors
don't get criticism because it'stotally tongue in cheek and one
of the things just concerningpastoral ministry, you gotta
have alligator skin.
It's not for the faint of heart.
But at the same time we're notjust dismissing individuals.
(11:43):
Their voices matter.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Alligator skin, but a heart with ears.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, that's right, I'll put it that way, and as we
think about visionary leadership, nehemiah is my man.
Yeah, good point, goodcharacter.
What did he do?
He had a vision, and I meanthere's a previous podcast on
Nehemiah's blueprint forleadership that I did and I'll
(12:09):
just go back to that and listenbut how, he saw the need and he
goes to prayer.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
He doesn't just go to .
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I got to get this job done.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
He goes before the Lord, he has the vision.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
It's what I had said in that go to God, direct it to
God, stay silent, go to God,yeah that's right, it's
beautiful, and then, as he iscarrying out, vision becomes
reality and it's the rebuildingof the walls.
You got this character,sanballat, and he just is going
after him.
Nehemiah 4.
And Nehemiah just shows us agreat example of overcoming
(12:44):
criticism, and not to minimize,I mean, criticism can hurt and
it does, but he doesn't let thatoccupy and rent space in his
head for free.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
He does a good job.
I've used that too, because Ihave received letters from
people of criticism which,honestly, I think are tough, you
know, because now it's notverbal, it's not something
hearsay, it's not something eventhey said to your face, but
they've penned it, you know, andthey've sent it in the mail.
I've gotten these and they'rebad, you know.
They've sent it in the mail.
I've gotten these and um, thatthey're bad, you know, and they
(13:18):
can really hurt.
And but you see him, when hegets those letters, he goes I
don't have time.
They want him to come up thereto distract him.
He's like I don't have time forthat yeah, he's about god's
word yeah, and you really, wereally have to.
It's self-control, it'stemperance, um, you know the the
thing too with complainers.
You kind of you hit on it too,because some of the criticism is
(13:39):
not controllers, it'scomplainers.
And I usually have things in mybrain so I can remember it, so
I can kind of it's just the wayI navigate, and probably a year
or two ago I realized a fewthings about people complaining.
There were three things I foundunderneath that, which I broke
it down so I could remember itEars, ego and expectations.
So I found out that a lot ofthe people complaining with
(14:00):
criticism were people thatactually didn't hear.
They weren't listening to whatwas said.
It usually revolved aroundsomething they weren't paying
attention to.
So they're criticizing theannouncements.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
They're criticizing.
They didn't know and it's likeI realized wow, a lot of these
critics.
It's an ear issue, it wasstated.
It was, and then I found ego ishuge.
I mean, obviously, ineverything we've said so far,
everything that Jesus dealt with, moses dealt with, paul dealt
with, nehemiah dealt with, it'scome down to pride, yeah, and so
(14:32):
ego is a big piece they need totell us.
And the other one wasexpectations, which I think, in
the role of a pastor, if itcomes to that piece, the
expectations can either be theyhave us low or they have
idolatrous expectations, andhere we are just trying to.
We're growing too.
Like Paul tells Timothy, letyour progress be seen by all,
which is proof that we haven'tarrived, but yet people think we
(14:55):
have.
So then, therefore, they'reready to criticize when they
think, well, you didn't do that,right, right, you know.
And so that's helped me alsobalance it out, to know like,
okay, that's what that is andit's normal.
How am I going to respond to it?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, that's great.
So, and thinking aboutresponding kind of biblically to
criticism, just a couplepassages of scripture that come
to my mind is respondingbiblically with grace.
In Colossians, chapter four,verse six, we are told to let
(15:28):
your speech always be gracious,seasoned with salt, because, oh
man, that's a landmine rightthere If I give in and then I
fire back, whether it be verbalor typing it out.
There's a big rule Never typeemotion like that.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I always say email and texting is for information
not correction.
And that's kind of a funnything in our church, because
people know Pastor Michael willcall you.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I'll say give me a call, here's my address, come
talk, you need to hear my tone,you need to read my body
language, all the things that Ican't do on email, and then I
allow you to become theinterpreter, and I don't want
that to happen.
It's vital, yeah, it is so.
Letting our speech be graciousand so doing so just is a great
(16:16):
way to sometimes even diffusecriticism or the critic
themselves.
Also, wisdom we touched on thiswith Jesus, but Proverbs 26,
verses 4 and 5, basically tellus we need to know when to
answer yeah, ah, and, accordingto your list, self-control.
We need to know self-controland when to be silent yeah, and
when to just take it on the chinyeah.
(16:39):
You know, and I— Absorb it yeah.
There's—.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
You know I use this, I use the matador.
We've called it the matadorprinciple because some stuff
that's said we have to be likeand I'm not trying to be crass,
no pun intended, but you'retrying to let the bull go by,
okay, sure, and the whole ideaof the matador is to let the
(17:05):
bull go by without engaging afight and a battle.
So there has been that responsewhere the criticism come and
you can say thank you for that.
I appreciate that and let methink about that and that's
basically stops it, because I'vewatched that spin, the matador
principle where we say this isone of those situations where we
are going to listen we're nottrying to diminish or be
(17:26):
condescending, but there aresome of those cases where you
are going to listen, we're nottrying to diminish or be
condescending but there are someof those cases where you do
have to let the bull go by, youknow, and be able to do it
wisely, carefully.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And there are some that criticize and I'm not even
talking about negative criticismor destructive criticism.
There's some that you know do,constructive and destructive and
they just kind of teeter backand forth at time, um, but there
are some that I have found inmy life that offer criticism and
they just want to know that youheard their criticism.
(17:55):
They're not even necessarilywanting you to do something.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
You know so many times they don't many times,
especially the complainingcritic.
I've noticed, uh, becausethere's great, there's three big
questions.
Uh, would the one would be andI say this to people, our staff
has all three too and they saywhat would you suggest?
Because I've noticed, when thecritic says something, if you
just ask them what would yousuggest, it puts it right back
(18:19):
and I learned this a decade agoand I would say what would you
suggest?
Do you have an idea how we cando that?
Do you want to fix it?
And right away, this diffusesthe whole thing.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Oh, yeah, it's a great.
I don't even call it a tactic,but it is a.
It's a tool.
Yeah, it's very useful.
We can.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Kind of places it back to them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
My children do this often.
They come to me with problemsabout you know so-and-so did
this, yeah, yeah yeah, and asaying that I have with them is
don't bring me problems, bringme solutions.
And if we identify somethingthat's not going well or this is
a weakness in the church orwhatever, it might be great, I
agree with you.
What can we do?
(19:00):
Because I also want to bring itback and say well, obviously
God has put this on your heart,or your mind at least, and so do
you want to be part of thesolution?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, which they may, and generally, sadly, most
people don't comment it that waythat they do respond if it's a
negative.
But then you have becausepeople that do want to help you
with constructive criticism.
They usually are saying weintuitively know that, we sense
the spirit of it.
Yeah, like, hey, that's, that'sa good idea.
(19:31):
How do we get?
How do we do that?
Yeah what are we going to dohere?
Which is awesome?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
yeah, which is awesome, and being a
collaborator really helps andand and I've seen in my own
experience uh, people move fromyou know, know, skeptic critic
to supporter, to servant to andthen, and then I mean they're
all in.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, you know, and it's like that's a great process
too.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, and stay planted like you, man, stay
planted in a local congregationand those things happen.
Yeah, and it's wonderful.
Yeah, and it's like all right,it's awesome.
Yeah, it's awesome, and it'slike all right, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Big ships turn slowly or theytip was something I was saying
for years, because our churchwas moving in transition A lot
of changes, a lot of struggleand, just like you said, I
watched a lot of people finallyget the vision because their
focus maybe wasn't on the rightthing.
I remember when we had to makea big change with service stuff,
there was a lot of people thatdidn't see it.
(20:28):
But they were not looking at.
They were looking at the boatinstead of looking at the ocean
that we were saying we have tocross.
And I remember using thatillustration to say, guys,
you're looking too much at theboat and you gotta first look at
the ocean.
This is what we we gotta dothis because and then I it's
amazing, because I think aboutsome of those people now.
Some of those people nowthey're all heavy hitters in
ministry roles today, but ittook me time to listen to their
(20:49):
criticism, develop therelationship and implement over
time and learn with them,because I was learning a lot
then too.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think another biblical principle, too, is be
patient with your critics,because you know they might be
in one of those categories, butthey can move and they can grow,
and sometimes some of thecriticism that I have faced was
not unmerited, because I maybehad expectations of others that,
(21:22):
well, of course, this is thevision, this is what we're doing
.
Like this and like this is, Iknow it's a great idea.
But just because I knowsomething's a great idea, I need
to be able to communicate thateffectively so that others can
see it and then be patient withthem, because maybe I've been
processing and working onsomething for six months, yeah,
(21:45):
and in six minutes, I thinkthat-.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Did your wife ever point this out to you?
Because my wife has pointedthat out to me.
She's like, babe, you're inthis thing.
You're like you've got to giveus time, Like you've been
dealing with this for six monthsto a year.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, because You've got the vision.
I'm already.
I'm trying to cover all mybases.
I'm ready for six months.
You need to be on board in sixminutes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So I have, as you can tell, I have lots of lists
because it helps me to rememberand when it comes to especially
transition and vision in achurch, like in the role that
you're in, I wrote downsomething to myself on an
airplane coming back fromCalifornia, meeting with a
mentor, thinking about all thethings that I made mistakes on.
(22:26):
It was a really season of mereally looking and evaluating a
lot of the things I implementedover six, seven years, the
struggles, the pressures, and Iwrote three things to myself
that I still use to this day.
When it's time to make a shift,like when we were getting ready
for this church name change andsome of the inside stuff.
I brought that list to thestaff and said guys, here it is
One, what's first or priority.
So what's first or priority?
So that was the first thing.
I said what's really next here?
(22:47):
Because and we're looking atwhat's important, because
sometimes when we get thatvision, it may not be the next
thing we should be doing what'sfirst.
Then I wrote to myself what'snext in the sense of, excuse me,
what to watch for was thesecond one, and under that I
wrote and I said this to a staffmember yesterday speed will
(23:09):
slow you down.
So when I what to watch forSpeed Because we make the
decisions, like you just saidtransparently, we move too quick
but speed will actually slow usdown Then self I was like man
self, if I'm too saturated inthis thing, I take I get my
feelings hurt or nobody'scatching on or I start the
negative Nellies and stuff likethat.
(23:31):
So I knew self I need to watchfor.
And then the third thing, whichkind of fits with the first one,
is sequence.
How do I go?
What to watch for?
I need to pay attention to mysequence on this.
I only knew this because I mademistakes in all those
categories.
And then the last one was whatto wait for, because there was a
lot of things that what was Ireally looking for here?
So when I look at what's firstor next priority what to watch
(23:54):
for, what to wait for was biggerpicture things, like I'm
waiting for God to bless hispeople I want to see what this
vision is.
Do I really want to see thisvision because I want to run it
or because I want people toexperience God anew in this
capacity?
So those were the things.
I wrote a whole and I'd kind ofgone back to that list, often
during seasons of change.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So just to share it with you as a brother.
That is wisdom.
That is wisdom through triedexperience, through successes
and failures, and learning fromour own pasts, learning from
brothers who have walked there,so that we can avoid landmines.
Something that was instilled inme a while back from a faithful
(24:39):
mentor and brother.
He said, john, he says goodleaders never offend
unintentionally.
He said so.
You need situational awarenessbecause if you are stepping on
landmines that you don't see,you're blind.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
There are times that's deep.
Say that one more time.
Let me hear that one more time.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Good leaders never offend unintentionally, and so
there is a time where you knowthat I might have to do
something offensive, but youneed to know that going into
that Um and that's where there'salso wisdom in a multitude of
council of like, hey we're, wemight go knock over a golden
(25:17):
calf right now or like we'regoing to go into the harness
nest, but it needs to happen.
Um.
So I've tried to operate thatway.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Um, I don't always succeed but it's, it's
definitely no principle.
No, that's really good wisdomand I think it applies back to
we're leading something that'salive.
So, there's change.
There's things that are solidthe DNA is still there, but it's
solid.
But change, resistance growthis a pattern we see throughout
the Bible Change, resistancegrowth.
(25:45):
And you're talking about thatresistance piece like, oh, how
do I go on this?
But what a great concept.
Leaders never offendunintentionally.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yes.
So just to shift, I mean, we'reliving in the pastoral world,
we're living in church life, butwe think about some that are
listening and they have criticsin their family.
They have critics in theirfamily, they have critics in
their workplace, they have, youknow, also just in their
relationships.
And how can let's think of justsome practical steps that they
(26:16):
can, you know, glean from whatwe've talked about but seek to
implement in their lives thatwould help them navigate
criticism?
Because criticism is likeconflict, it is there, it will
always be there.
So I guess maybe the firstpractical step is just recognize
it is the inevitable.
And if you're ever going to besomebody that makes a difference
for the kingdom of God, as wewere talking, even influence in
(26:37):
our families, our communities,our spheres of influence, we
have to accept that we wage waragainst darkness, against
principalities, againstspiritual forces in the heavenly
places.
(26:58):
If you're expecting a life ofease, without criticism, and
you're going to make an impactfor the kingdom of God, you have
two different mindsets here andso, understanding, I think,
first and foremost, we willnavigate and have to deal with
critics on all sides, and so oneof the things that I would
think is a practical step is beslow to speak and quick to
(27:20):
listen.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Just hear people.
When it comes to being outsideof management and leadership and
being practical for a believerworking in the work world,
whatever their vocation, in thework world, yeah, it's different
because they're not leading andthey're not managing, because
in those categories a lot ofstuff we just said can really
apply.
But yeah, you're right, I think, underneath it, we both know,
(27:43):
wherever we are, whether it's inour families, outside of the
pastoral role yeah, we have to.
It's listening, I would saylistening, and it would be
listening and the only speakingis praying to God.
You know, praying for people,praying to have that wisdom that
you talked about, to be able tohave self-control.
You know not to carry it as adeep, deep hurt and, if we can,
(28:03):
if it's somebody that loves us,someone who cares about us that
hurt us, we can talk to themabout it, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Another one is seek accountability and wisdom.
Don't process criticism inisolation.
We can do that and, oh man,that can send us into a tailspin
, that can put us into some darkplaces.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And so as you receive and get criticism whether it be
in your job, family, whateverit might be make sure you have
somebody that you can bouncethat off of, someone that you
love.
It might be your spouse, itmight just be a close brother.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Could be a punching bag in the basement.
Yeah, you need an outlet.
You do need an outlet too.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But seek, you know.
Hey, this was said, I receivedthis Because we have filters.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
You know, that's the tell me for years in my
personality, which has beenhelpful.
She said, babe, they're comingat you with a feather and you
think it's a tank.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, so my filter would always you know, because
you know it was all thisfiltering that was.
You just proved that pointright there.
Your wife spoke into your lifeand helped you, Mine too.
Praise God for Godly spouses.
Respond in love, not in pride.
If you feel the defensivenessswelling up in you again, go
(29:13):
back to listen, be slow to speak, but respond to that person,
even if it's the controller.
Respond in love.
And ultimately we want to seepeople through the lens that
Jesus sees people and ultimatelywe wanna see people through the
lens that Jesus sees people.
And so, because a lot of timescriticism is God's means at
chiseling away my pride Sure andto build humility.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
He uses it, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, he uses it and it could be totally wrong, yeah,
but God knows.
Hey, I need work done, somecrucifying happens in it.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I'm crucified through criticism.
Yeah, oh man, oh, that onehurts.
There's a book, not a lot ofsales on that one that one will
sell, but they'll criticize it,I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I'll invite it, but then it just again, I can make a
second edition and then kind ofa final step that I would think
practically is move forward.
Look at Nehemiah as an example.
Move forward and don't getparalyzed by criticism.
If we allowed every form ofcriticism and every criticism
that we hear to determine ourmovements, we would be stuck for
(30:15):
life and that happens,paralyzed by the pain or even
the analysis.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I've been in the place where I can't go back and
unwind or unscramble that eggand I'm not going to deal with
those emotions.
But what can I and I actually,you know, look at it and say how
going forward, how can I beright, you know, and with people
too, because being I just hadsaid it recently being right is
never more right than beingright with each other.
So I need to do the right thing, even with the critic, you know
(30:42):
, to know that there's going tobe a boundary.
It doesn't mean I'm going to.
I have a thing I call generoussilence, because I learned in
the past that I would actuallybe silent toward people, but it
was punishment.
So I'm like, yep, I'm not goingto talk to you, yep, you're not
going to get in here, yep,you're not going to get.
And I realized that's actuallyvery unhealthy.
Yeah, very.
So it would be better for me,like you just said awesomely
(31:02):
which is to be like Christ who,you see, he's so generous with
everybody, even the critic.
He's very patient with them.
Yeah, he's gonna confront them,he's gonna tell them the truth,
timely, wisdom, relevant, buthe's gonna be and I call it a
generous silence, where I'mgonna be careful what I say
around certain people.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
But I'm also not gonna be mad about it, because
that's just unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, and I think.
Finally, pray for your criticby name, bring them before the
throne of grace by name, and I'msure you might have a book of
names.
No, I don't have a book ofnames.
I'm opening a book here, oh yes.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Podcast listener can't see, but I want to say to
you this is a book I've createdfor 10 years.
Okay, and in it I have asection called when Facing
Criticism or Dealing withDifficult People.
I actually have Lord, grant mepatience when dealing with and
there's a blank line.
That's right, and help meremember the negative energy
withers in the face of love.
Okay, and I have different onesfor different scenarios Prayer
(31:59):
for constructive criticism,prayer when you've been
criticized Wow, so I've used allthese.
Then I have verses that go onthis side that connect with the
principle of it, because it ispainful.
I have one here, I'll show youlater uh, john, uh, help me,
just bless my enemies.
This was written by a man whowas uh in another I think it was
ukrainian, to be honest withyou in the past, writing how to
(32:20):
bless his enemies.
He said my enemies have helpedme more than my friends have at
times, because they help pointout things to me.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And so that's deep, that's deep, that's deep.
And you know, we faithful arethe wounds of a friend.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
We know that too, and so we thank our critics, but
that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
If someone criticizes you and it helps you to grow
into the likeness of Jesus, evenin the smallest of ways.
I just want to encourage youlistener to my own heart and
Mike, thank that person.
Thank them because they havebeen used by God for your growth
and sanctification, no matterhow much it hurts, and sometimes
(32:59):
we just got to kill withkindness.
Yeah so yeah.
There's so much more we couldtalk about on this one, but I
just want to encourage all whoare listening to remember
criticism is a part of life andhow we handle it reflects our
faith, our maturity and ourwisdom.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
And how are we giving it?
Yes, I know, Because we'recritics too right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Sometimes I'm my own worst critic and I got to
remember that.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'm with you, bro.
We're running parallel lines onthat one.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So, as you reflect on maybe even recent criticism
that you have received in yourlife, ask yourself the question
how can you respond biblicallyto the criticism of the
adversity that you're facing?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Well, Mike, I want to just thank you for coming on
the show and Thank you for allthe wisdom today.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Great, enriching conversation.
I hope it's a blessing tolisteners and I just want to
thank you for listening to thePleasing God podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You can reach out at questionsat pleasinggodpodcastorg.
And remember 1 Thessalonians4.3.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
Hi and welcome back to the Pleasing God podcast, a
show focused on helpingChristians to think biblically,
engage practically and livefaithfully for the glory of God.
I'm your host, jonathan Soul,and on this episode I have a
special guest with me, pastorMike Woodward, who is the lead
pastor at Ocean State BaptistChurch.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, Ocean State just voted a name change.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Oh, okay, Last month.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Church of the Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Okay, when does that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It's in the process now.
They voted Okay.
And the inside, outside, allthat stuff's taking place over
the next few months.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Nice Great A.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Christian community following Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Amen, yeah, that's great.
A Christian community followingJesus.
Amen, yeah, that reflectsexactly who we are and what we
desire to be Well, interesting,with that name change, this
topic might have some.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Most definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
For sure.
So on this episode we want totalk about dealing with critics
and responding with wisdom andgrace, and so let me just throw
a question out to you, mike howdo you handle criticism?
I mean, pastors don't getcriticized, but if they did
right, how do you deal withcriticism professionally in the
(01:17):
ministry and just generally as aperson?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I mean.
The comical answer I want tosay is run, you know, or crawl
up into a ball.
The comical answer I want tosay is run, you know, or crawl
up into a ball.
Right at times I handlecriticism today always, I think,
out of the gate.
It always is looking at what itactually is, because I feel
(01:39):
that criticism that I've beenthrough over the years has three
dimensions to them, and youhave critics that are
controllers, critics that arecomplainers and critics that are
constructive.
So it always is the source,because I mean, if somebody
comes that I know loves me,cares about me, cares about the
ministry, cares about Christ'sglory, and they are offering
input, it may be criticism butit may not be negative, and I'm
open to that.
I think I can learn from allthree categories, though.
(02:00):
So I always am thinking like,immediately, it's just in my
mind to look at, consider thesource of what it is.
You know, controllers arecriticizing because they're
seeking some kind of power,they're not happy about this,
and those folks I try to makemyself unavailable to be honest
with you.
I've learned to just realizethey're going to say, what
(02:22):
they're going to say, but I'vegot to have God's agenda.
I got to know what God's visionis, especially as a pastor.
If I'm being criticized forthose decisions, I know I make
mistakes as well, so I'm goingto be open to listen to that.
But I do find there are peoplewho are criticizing merely
because, as I joke around andsay, they are people who were
saved in crabapple country andbaptized in pickle juice.
So I see that immediately and Iknow the source.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Sure, sure, yeah, and I think that's important to
think about of just withcriticism kind of.
First, those categories arefantastic too.
And considering the source isthis a serial offender, is this
a brother or a sister who lovesme, loves Jesus?
(03:05):
And I know, in my own life too,handling criticism, I want to,
when in doubt, err on the sideof charity.
And I don't want to initiallyhave a hermeneutic of suspicion
with any form of criticism,although inwardly I still might
and I want to kind of even checkmy own heart about that but
(03:26):
really kind of accepting it witha sense of humility of, like
you might be, your criticismmight be 95% wrong, off base
with selfish motivation andintention, but there might be a
kernel of truth in that.
And what can I learn, even frommaybe you with not the best
intentions that I could evaluate, or maybe that was a blind spot
(03:48):
that you could have hit me witha little more grace, but you
still showed me something.
And just trying to, withhumility, navigate that, I think
I've done it.
For me personally, I've done adecent job of outwardly handling
criticism well and theninwardly replaying it a lot and
it's like okay, I need to get myhead, my heart, my hands all
(04:13):
aligned with that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and I think that perspective, especially in
a pastoral role, we have to know.
I think it was Thomas Akempisthat said vain is the help of
man, and that idea is that it'snot constant, it's not
sustainable.
So criticisms happen, but Ineed to make sure my focus is on
God.
So I agree with you prayer,because I can imagine in my own
(04:38):
mind many of those morningsreplaying something in my own
head, trying to process things.
But learning how to pray,learning how to think about what
Paul is saying, Am I seeking toplease God in this?
Am I seeking Him and His gloryand being open to say did I make
the right decision there orwhat is it that's being
(05:00):
criticized exactly?
Is it something I can change?
Is it something that they'rejust being petty about, which is
more of a controller thing?
The controllers, I don't think,have our best in mind.
I think that they just it's apower issue, it's a power
struggle.
Um, and I was telling youearlier, uh, I have a list that
I keep on my wall in my officewhere, uh, it's a confronting
controllers and negative critics, and the top it says pay more
(05:23):
attention to your creator thanyour critics, but it will happen
.
Don't speak their language.
I think I'm quoting Taylor Swifthere.
But haters gonna hate.
I don't think she originatedthat.
But some can only be dealt withthrough prayer and fasting,
because I've been through thatwith some of the issues that
I've dealt with.
Ministry trial-wise.
When navigating through change,transition or difficulties,
(05:45):
expect antagonism, Like ifyou're making changes and God's
giving you vision, the wholescope of scripture tells you
we're going to face that.
Isn't it funny how Moses, youknow he goes and tells all the
people in the beginning of thechapter says God has told me to
come to you.
And it says at the end of thatchapter it says like and all the
elders bowed their head Withinanother chapter they hate his
(06:05):
guts and they want him out.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So it's like I think we have what have you done for
me lately?
We?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
have a biblical record here.
Silence is an answer too.
Don't let the conflict be aboutyou.
It's about God's vision.
Direct them to God, don'tbecome a victim.
And then I have the last one.
I had added over time, set upstructure in leadership to block
controllers and negativecritics.
So I have a gate of people thatguard me the deacons, the
(06:32):
elders, some of my staff members.
They understand that too, andwe do it for each other.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's great, and a lot of the principles there can
translate to beyond, justpastoral ministry, just in life
or in your profession, whateverit is, knowing that in this life
there will be trials andtribulations, there will be
critics.
And when we think aboutbiblical examples of dealing
with criticism, we referenceMoses.
(06:58):
I think about Jesus and inMatthew, chapter 22, the
Pharisees are coming andplotting against him.
They come with flattery first.
Yeah, beware of the flatterertoo.
The people that sing yourhighest praises can also turn
around on you quick.
There's red flags on both sides.
And so they come.
(07:19):
We know you're a good teacher,but they're trying to trick him
and they're trying to criticizehim, and there's a whole list of
sabotage events against him.
They send the Sadducees aboutmarriage in heaven, trip him up.
Yeah, should we pay taxes?
I mean, what should we do?
And they're just trying to geteverything.
(07:39):
They're critics and they havebad intentions, and when we look
at Jesus how he responded tocritics, it was with truth and
wisdom.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Timely relevant holy speech as well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, and just like your categories there, he didn't
get to their level and he didnot respond.
Evil for evil, of course, butthat truth and wisdom, he
silenced his accusers and hiscritics and I think, as we're
committed to wherever our sphereof influence in life is
(08:14):
committed to following the modelthat Jesus lays out, we can be
able to navigate and respond tocriticism without sin.
And I think that's veryimportant because, man inwardly,
my flesh, yeah, we want to bedefensive, we want to react.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We have but some of the stuff that people sometimes
bring to us.
We might even be saying aboutourselves to God, yeah, and yet
when somebody else says it, wedon't want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That could happen too , you reminded me of a Spurgeon
quote.
He said something along thelines if anyone speaks evil of
you, just recognize you're worsethan they said.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, exactly as Spurgeon could say Keep your
feet on the ground, man.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, don't worry, you are worse than that.
Paul's another example of howhe faced opposition but remained
steadfast.
Think about the Corinthianletters, especially I mean the
church in Corinth 2 Corinthians,10.10,.
You know he's dealing with hiscritics and he says concerning
(09:14):
them.
They say his letters areweighty and strong, but his
bodily presence is weak and hisspeech is of no account and
they're just dissing him.
And you kind of see Paul'sdefense of his ministry and I
think there's a way that we candefend but not become defensive.
Um, and I think paul gives usan example there in second
(09:37):
corinthians.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's transparent you know, it's like I'm doing this
and it's almost like he's almostwriting to god in that text not
to them, because god's hiswitness that you know.
Here's what I'm doing.
Here's how I'm doing.
Here's who I've been he doesn'tcare which I think is another
large piece with in thisscripture with paul to.
Something I've thought a lotabout through the years and I've
written about is that and it'shumbling to think of it because
(10:02):
it also is about that source,but it's also I noticed there
were some people who criticizedI didn't care at all, it didn't
stick to me, it didn't affect me, but yet there were others that
did.
And over time I began to kind ofpay attention to this and it
really brought me to this pointin my own journal writing to
really examine this Like what'sreally the issue here?
Why did I care so much aboutthis?
(10:23):
And it wasn't because of therelationship Okay, because many
of the people on this side.
It may have been like Paulwould say in Galatians, that he
didn't care about those whosupposedly were leaders of
influence.
He didn't care one minute.
He was there to tell the truth.
And I started writing about thefact that I needed to see us all
as worms and I was like Ishouldn't.
(10:43):
Just because these people don'thave the clout or the political
clout or the financial clout,there was something I was doing
in placing them like in thepsalm.
I read this morning in mydevotion time, psalm 39, that
men, we're like a breath, butyet I would distinguish my
criticisms differently too, andI started to say I ought to see
it all in that spectrum and thengo to God.
(11:04):
I want to hear it, but I letsome of it bother me.
But yet there's people I won't,but yet we're all the same.
I don't know if that is toodeep, but transparently, I wrote
a lot about that in my journalin the last several months where
I was like it can't be likethat.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, I know that I opened up joking saying pastors
don't get criticism because it'stotally tongue in cheek and one
of the things just concerningpastoral ministry, you gotta
have alligator skin.
It's not for the faint of heart.
But at the same time we're notjust dismissing individuals.
(11:43):
Their voices matter.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Alligator skin, but a heart with ears.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, that's right, I'll put it that way, and as we
think about visionary leadership, nehemiah is my man.
Yeah, good point, goodcharacter.
What did he do?
He had a vision, and I meanthere's a previous podcast on
Nehemiah's blueprint forleadership that I did and I'll
(12:09):
just go back to that and listenbut how, he saw the need and he
goes to prayer.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
He doesn't just go to .
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I got to get this job done.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
He goes before the Lord, he has the vision.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
It's what I had said in that go to God, direct it to
God, stay silent, go to God,yeah that's right, it's
beautiful, and then, as he iscarrying out, vision becomes
reality and it's the rebuildingof the walls.
You got this character,sanballat, and he just is going
after him.
Nehemiah 4.
And Nehemiah just shows us agreat example of overcoming
(12:44):
criticism, and not to minimize,I mean, criticism can hurt and
it does, but he doesn't let thatoccupy and rent space in his
head for free.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
He does a good job.
I've used that too, because Ihave received letters from
people of criticism which,honestly, I think are tough, you
know, because now it's notverbal, it's not something
hearsay, it's not something eventhey said to your face, but
they've penned it, you know, andthey've sent it in the mail.
I've gotten these and they'rebad, you know.
They've sent it in the mail.
I've gotten these and um, thatthey're bad, you know, and they
(13:18):
can really hurt.
And but you see him, when hegets those letters, he goes I
don't have time.
They want him to come up thereto distract him.
He's like I don't have time forthat yeah, he's about god's
word yeah, and you really, wereally have to.
It's self-control, it'stemperance, um, you know the the
thing too with complainers.
You kind of you hit on it too,because some of the criticism is
(13:39):
not controllers, it'scomplainers.
And I usually have things in mybrain so I can remember it, so
I can kind of it's just the wayI navigate, and probably a year
or two ago I realized a fewthings about people complaining.
There were three things I foundunderneath that, which I broke
it down so I could remember itEars, ego and expectations.
So I found out that a lot ofthe people complaining with
(14:00):
criticism were people thatactually didn't hear.
They weren't listening to whatwas said.
It usually revolved aroundsomething they weren't paying
attention to.
So they're criticizing theannouncements.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
They're criticizing.
They didn't know and it's likeI realized wow, a lot of these
critics.
It's an ear issue, it wasstated.
It was, and then I found ego ishuge.
I mean, obviously, ineverything we've said so far,
everything that Jesus dealt with, moses dealt with, paul dealt
with, nehemiah dealt with, it'scome down to pride, yeah, and so
(14:32):
ego is a big piece they need totell us.
And the other one wasexpectations, which I think, in
the role of a pastor, if itcomes to that piece, the
expectations can either be theyhave us low or they have
idolatrous expectations, andhere we are just trying to.
We're growing too.
Like Paul tells Timothy, letyour progress be seen by all,
which is proof that we haven'tarrived, but yet people think we
(14:55):
have.
So then, therefore, they'reready to criticize when they
think, well, you didn't do that,right, right, you know.
And so that's helped me alsobalance it out, to know like,
okay, that's what that is andit's normal.
How am I going to respond to it?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, that's great.
So, and thinking aboutresponding kind of biblically to
criticism, just a couplepassages of scripture that come
to my mind is respondingbiblically with grace.
In Colossians, chapter four,verse six, we are told to let
(15:28):
your speech always be gracious,seasoned with salt, because, oh
man, that's a landmine rightthere If I give in and then I
fire back, whether it be verbalor typing it out.
There's a big rule Never typeemotion like that.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I always say email and texting is for information
not correction.
And that's kind of a funnything in our church, because
people know Pastor Michael willcall you.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I'll say give me a call, here's my address, come
talk, you need to hear my tone,you need to read my body
language, all the things that Ican't do on email, and then I
allow you to become theinterpreter, and I don't want
that to happen.
It's vital, yeah, it is so.
Letting our speech be graciousand so doing so just is a great
(16:16):
way to sometimes even diffusecriticism or the critic
themselves.
Also, wisdom we touched on thiswith Jesus, but Proverbs 26,
verses 4 and 5, basically tellus we need to know when to
answer yeah, ah, and, accordingto your list, self-control.
We need to know self-controland when to be silent yeah, and
when to just take it on the chinyeah.
(16:39):
You know, and I— Absorb it yeah.
There's—.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
You know I use this, I use the matador.
We've called it the matadorprinciple because some stuff
that's said we have to be likeand I'm not trying to be crass,
no pun intended, but you'retrying to let the bull go by,
okay, sure, and the whole ideaof the matador is to let the
(17:05):
bull go by without engaging afight and a battle.
So there has been that responsewhere the criticism come and
you can say thank you for that.
I appreciate that and let methink about that and that's
basically stops it, because I'vewatched that spin, the matador
principle where we say this isone of those situations where we
are going to listen we're nottrying to diminish or be
(17:26):
condescending, but there aresome of those cases where you
are going to listen, we're nottrying to diminish or be
condescending but there are someof those cases where you do
have to let the bull go by, youknow, and be able to do it
wisely, carefully.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And there are some that criticize and I'm not even
talking about negative criticismor destructive criticism.
There's some that you know do,constructive and destructive and
they just kind of teeter backand forth at time, um, but there
are some that I have found inmy life that offer criticism and
they just want to know that youheard their criticism.
(17:55):
They're not even necessarilywanting you to do something.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
You know so many times they don't many times,
especially the complainingcritic.
I've noticed, uh, becausethere's great, there's three big
questions.
Uh, would the one would be andI say this to people, our staff
has all three too and they saywhat would you suggest?
Because I've noticed, when thecritic says something, if you
just ask them what would yousuggest, it puts it right back
(18:19):
and I learned this a decade agoand I would say what would you
suggest?
Do you have an idea how we cando that?
Do you want to fix it?
And right away, this diffusesthe whole thing.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Oh, yeah, it's a great.
I don't even call it a tactic,but it is a.
It's a tool.
Yeah, it's very useful.
We can.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Kind of places it back to them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
My children do this often.
They come to me with problemsabout you know so-and-so did
this, yeah, yeah yeah, and asaying that I have with them is
don't bring me problems, bringme solutions.
And if we identify somethingthat's not going well or this is
a weakness in the church orwhatever, it might be great, I
agree with you.
What can we do?
(19:00):
Because I also want to bring itback and say well, obviously
God has put this on your heart,or your mind at least, and so do
you want to be part of thesolution?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, which they may, and generally, sadly, most
people don't comment it that waythat they do respond if it's a
negative.
But then you have becausepeople that do want to help you
with constructive criticism.
They usually are saying weintuitively know that, we sense
the spirit of it.
Yeah, like, hey, that's, that'sa good idea.
(19:31):
How do we get?
How do we do that?
Yeah what are we going to dohere?
Which is awesome?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
yeah, which is awesome, and being a
collaborator really helps andand and I've seen in my own
experience uh, people move fromyou know, know, skeptic critic
to supporter, to servant to andthen, and then I mean they're
all in.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, you know, and it's like that's a great process
too.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, and stay planted like you, man, stay
planted in a local congregationand those things happen.
Yeah, and it's wonderful.
Yeah, and it's like all right,it's awesome.
Yeah, it's awesome, and it'slike all right, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Big ships turn slowly or theytip was something I was saying
for years, because our churchwas moving in transition A lot
of changes, a lot of struggleand, just like you said, I
watched a lot of people finallyget the vision because their
focus maybe wasn't on the rightthing.
I remember when we had to makea big change with service stuff,
there was a lot of people thatdidn't see it.
(20:28):
But they were not looking at.
They were looking at the boatinstead of looking at the ocean
that we were saying we have tocross.
And I remember using thatillustration to say, guys,
you're looking too much at theboat and you gotta first look at
the ocean.
This is what we we gotta dothis because and then I it's
amazing, because I think aboutsome of those people now.
Some of those people nowthey're all heavy hitters in
ministry roles today, but ittook me time to listen to their
(20:49):
criticism, develop therelationship and implement over
time and learn with them,because I was learning a lot
then too.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think another biblical principle, too, is be
patient with your critics,because you know they might be
in one of those categories, butthey can move and they can grow,
and sometimes some of thecriticism that I have faced was
not unmerited, because I maybehad expectations of others that,
(21:22):
well, of course, this is thevision, this is what we're doing
.
Like this and like this is, Iknow it's a great idea.
But just because I knowsomething's a great idea, I need
to be able to communicate thateffectively so that others can
see it and then be patient withthem, because maybe I've been
processing and working onsomething for six months, yeah,
(21:45):
and in six minutes, I thinkthat-.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Did your wife ever point this out to you?
Because my wife has pointedthat out to me.
She's like, babe, you're inthis thing.
You're like you've got to giveus time, Like you've been
dealing with this for six monthsto a year.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, because You've got the vision.
I'm already.
I'm trying to cover all mybases.
I'm ready for six months.
You need to be on board in sixminutes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So I have, as you can tell, I have lots of lists
because it helps me to rememberand when it comes to especially
transition and vision in achurch, like in the role that
you're in, I wrote downsomething to myself on an
airplane coming back fromCalifornia, meeting with a
mentor, thinking about all thethings that I made mistakes on.
(22:26):
It was a really season of mereally looking and evaluating a
lot of the things I implementedover six, seven years, the
struggles, the pressures, and Iwrote three things to myself
that I still use to this day.
When it's time to make a shift,like when we were getting ready
for this church name change andsome of the inside stuff.
I brought that list to thestaff and said guys, here it is
One, what's first or priority.
So what's first or priority?
So that was the first thing.
I said what's really next here?
(22:47):
Because and we're looking atwhat's important, because
sometimes when we get thatvision, it may not be the next
thing we should be doing what'sfirst.
Then I wrote to myself what'snext in the sense of, excuse me,
what to watch for was thesecond one, and under that I
wrote and I said this to a staffmember yesterday speed will
(23:09):
slow you down.
So when I what to watch forSpeed Because we make the
decisions, like you just saidtransparently, we move too quick
but speed will actually slow usdown Then self I was like man
self, if I'm too saturated inthis thing, I take I get my
feelings hurt or nobody'scatching on or I start the
negative Nellies and stuff likethat.
(23:31):
So I knew self I need to watchfor.
And then the third thing, whichkind of fits with the first one,
is sequence.
How do I go?
What to watch for?
I need to pay attention to mysequence on this.
I only knew this because I mademistakes in all those
categories.
And then the last one was whatto wait for, because there was a
lot of things that what was Ireally looking for here?
So when I look at what's firstor next priority what to watch
(23:54):
for, what to wait for was biggerpicture things, like I'm
waiting for God to bless hispeople I want to see what this
vision is.
Do I really want to see thisvision because I want to run it
or because I want people toexperience God anew in this
capacity?
So those were the things.
I wrote a whole and I'd kind ofgone back to that list, often
during seasons of change.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So just to share it with you as a brother.
That is wisdom.
That is wisdom through triedexperience, through successes
and failures, and learning fromour own pasts, learning from
brothers who have walked there,so that we can avoid landmines.
Something that was instilled inme a while back from a faithful
(24:39):
mentor and brother.
He said, john, he says goodleaders never offend
unintentionally.
He said so.
You need situational awarenessbecause if you are stepping on
landmines that you don't see,you're blind.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
There are times that's deep.
Say that one more time.
Let me hear that one more time.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Good leaders never offend unintentionally, and so
there is a time where you knowthat I might have to do
something offensive, but youneed to know that going into
that Um and that's where there'salso wisdom in a multitude of
council of like, hey we're, wemight go knock over a golden
(25:17):
calf right now or like we'regoing to go into the harness
nest, but it needs to happen.
Um.
So I've tried to operate thatway.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Um, I don't always succeed but it's, it's
definitely no principle.
No, that's really good wisdomand I think it applies back to
we're leading something that'salive.
So, there's change.
There's things that are solidthe DNA is still there, but it's
solid.
But change, resistance growthis a pattern we see throughout
the Bible Change, resistancegrowth.
(25:45):
And you're talking about thatresistance piece like, oh, how
do I go on this?
But what a great concept.
Leaders never offendunintentionally.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yes.
So just to shift, I mean, we'reliving in the pastoral world,
we're living in church life, butwe think about some that are
listening and they have criticsin their family.
They have critics in theirfamily, they have critics in
their workplace, they have, youknow, also just in their
relationships.
And how can let's think of justsome practical steps that they
(26:16):
can, you know, glean from whatwe've talked about but seek to
implement in their lives thatwould help them navigate
criticism?
Because criticism is likeconflict, it is there, it will
always be there.
So I guess maybe the firstpractical step is just recognize
it is the inevitable.
And if you're ever going to besomebody that makes a difference
for the kingdom of God, as wewere talking, even influence in
(26:37):
our families, our communities,our spheres of influence, we
have to accept that we wage waragainst darkness, against
principalities, againstspiritual forces in the heavenly
places.
(26:58):
If you're expecting a life ofease, without criticism, and
you're going to make an impactfor the kingdom of God, you have
two different mindsets here andso, understanding, I think,
first and foremost, we willnavigate and have to deal with
critics on all sides, and so oneof the things that I would
think is a practical step is beslow to speak and quick to
(27:20):
listen.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Just hear people.
When it comes to being outsideof management and leadership and
being practical for a believerworking in the work world,
whatever their vocation, in thework world, yeah, it's different
because they're not leading andthey're not managing, because
in those categories a lot ofstuff we just said can really
apply.
But yeah, you're right, I think, underneath it, we both know,
(27:43):
wherever we are, whether it's inour families, outside of the
pastoral role yeah, we have to.
It's listening, I would saylistening, and it would be
listening and the only speakingis praying to God.
You know, praying for people,praying to have that wisdom that
you talked about, to be able tohave self-control.
You know not to carry it as adeep, deep hurt and, if we can,
(28:03):
if it's somebody that loves us,someone who cares about us that
hurt us, we can talk to themabout it, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Another one is seek accountability and wisdom.
Don't process criticism inisolation.
We can do that and, oh man,that can send us into a tailspin
, that can put us into some darkplaces.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And so as you receive and get criticism whether it be
in your job, family, whateverit might be make sure you have
somebody that you can bouncethat off of, someone that you
love.
It might be your spouse, itmight just be a close brother.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Could be a punching bag in the basement.
Yeah, you need an outlet.
You do need an outlet too.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But seek, you know.
Hey, this was said, I receivedthis Because we have filters.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
You know, that's the tell me for years in my
personality, which has beenhelpful.
She said, babe, they're comingat you with a feather and you
think it's a tank.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, so my filter would always you know, because
you know it was all thisfiltering that was.
You just proved that pointright there.
Your wife spoke into your lifeand helped you, Mine too.
Praise God for Godly spouses.
Respond in love, not in pride.
If you feel the defensivenessswelling up in you again, go
(29:13):
back to listen, be slow to speak, but respond to that person,
even if it's the controller.
Respond in love.
And ultimately we want to seepeople through the lens that
Jesus sees people and ultimatelywe wanna see people through the
lens that Jesus sees people.
And so, because a lot of timescriticism is God's means at
chiseling away my pride Sure andto build humility.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
He uses it, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, he uses it and it could be totally wrong, yeah,
but God knows.
Hey, I need work done, somecrucifying happens in it.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I'm crucified through criticism.
Yeah, oh man, oh, that onehurts.
There's a book, not a lot ofsales on that one that one will
sell, but they'll criticize it,I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I'll invite it, but then it just again, I can make a
second edition and then kind ofa final step that I would think
practically is move forward.
Look at Nehemiah as an example.
Move forward and don't getparalyzed by criticism.
If we allowed every form ofcriticism and every criticism
that we hear to determine ourmovements, we would be stuck for
(30:15):
life and that happens,paralyzed by the pain or even
the analysis.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I've been in the place where I can't go back and
unwind or unscramble that eggand I'm not going to deal with
those emotions.
But what can I and I actually,you know, look at it and say how
going forward, how can I beright, you know, and with people
too, because being I just hadsaid it recently being right is
never more right than beingright with each other.
So I need to do the right thing, even with the critic, you know
(30:42):
, to know that there's going tobe a boundary.
It doesn't mean I'm going to.
I have a thing I call generoussilence, because I learned in
the past that I would actuallybe silent toward people, but it
was punishment.
So I'm like, yep, I'm not goingto talk to you, yep, you're not
going to get in here, yep,you're not going to get.
And I realized that's actuallyvery unhealthy.
Yeah, very.
So it would be better for me,like you just said awesomely
(31:02):
which is to be like Christ who,you see, he's so generous with
everybody, even the critic.
He's very patient with them.
Yeah, he's gonna confront them,he's gonna tell them the truth,
timely, wisdom, relevant, buthe's gonna be and I call it a
generous silence, where I'mgonna be careful what I say
around certain people.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
But I'm also not gonna be mad about it, because
that's just unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, and I think.
Finally, pray for your criticby name, bring them before the
throne of grace by name, and I'msure you might have a book of
names.
No, I don't have a book ofnames.
I'm opening a book here, oh yes.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Podcast listener can't see, but I want to say to
you this is a book I've createdfor 10 years.
Okay, and in it I have asection called when Facing
Criticism or Dealing withDifficult People.
I actually have Lord, grant mepatience when dealing with and
there's a blank line.
That's right, and help meremember the negative energy
withers in the face of love.
Okay, and I have different onesfor different scenarios Prayer
(31:59):
for constructive criticism,prayer when you've been
criticized Wow, so I've used allthese.
Then I have verses that go onthis side that connect with the
principle of it, because it ispainful.
I have one here, I'll show youlater uh, john, uh, help me,
just bless my enemies.
This was written by a man whowas uh in another I think it was
ukrainian, to be honest withyou in the past, writing how to
(32:20):
bless his enemies.
He said my enemies have helpedme more than my friends have at
times, because they help pointout things to me.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And so that's deep, that's deep, that's deep.
And you know, we faithful arethe wounds of a friend.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
We know that too, and so we thank our critics, but
that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
If someone criticizes you and it helps you to grow
into the likeness of Jesus, evenin the smallest of ways.
I just want to encourage youlistener to my own heart and
Mike, thank that person.
Thank them because they havebeen used by God for your growth
and sanctification, no matterhow much it hurts, and sometimes
(32:59):
we just got to kill withkindness.
Yeah so yeah.
There's so much more we couldtalk about on this one, but I
just want to encourage all whoare listening to remember
criticism is a part of life andhow we handle it reflects our
faith, our maturity and ourwisdom.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
And how are we giving it?
Yes, I know, Because we'recritics too right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Sometimes I'm my own worst critic and I got to
remember that.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'm with you, bro.
We're running parallel lines onthat one.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So, as you reflect on maybe even recent criticism
that you have received in yourlife, ask yourself the question
how can you respond biblicallyto the criticism of the
adversity that you're facing?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Well, Mike, I want to just thank you for coming on
the show and Thank you for allthe wisdom today.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Great, enriching conversation.
I hope it's a blessing tolisteners and I just want to
thank you for listening to thePleasing God podcast.
If you have any questions, Iwould love to hear from you.
You can reach out at questionsat pleasinggodpodcastorg.
And remember 1 Thessalonians4.3.
This is the will of God, yoursanctification.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!