July 8, 2025 • 48 mins
In this Layer 2 kick-off to our India series, Avi sits down with two grassroots heavy-hitters:
- Basanta Goswami – ex-fiat dev turned full-time “freedom-tech” maxi. Basanta helped launch the Assam Bitcoin Cohort, runs wallet-security audits, hacks on the Nostr form-builder Formstr, and curates the Bangalore “Un-F*** the Internet” privacy meet-up under his new banner, Unsigned Labs.
- Paper Psych – designer-turned-community lead at Bitshala’s BitSpace, India’s first Bitcoin co-working / hacker hub in Bengaluru, home to BitDevs, design-athons and a Spanish-style fellowship that pays newcomers to contribute to open-source Bitcoin.
Together they unpack:
- how a 2022 Bitcoin conference flipped their orange-pill switch
- why talking to Indians in their own languages supercharges adoption
- Bitshala’s cohort-to-fellowship pipeline for developers & designers
- grass-roots tactics that beat alt-coin marketing budgets - Nostr zaps, vernacular podcasts, local meet-ups
- the promise (and policy pain) of hydro-powered mining in the North-East
- a vision of decentralized tech, digital self-sovereignty and an orange future for 1.4 billion people.
Whether you’re building, hodling, or just Nostr-curious, this episode is a front-row look at India’s rapidly forming Bitcoin layer - told by the plebs making it happen.
Links
Bitshala: https://bitshala.org/
Formstr: https://formstr.app/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In a world where fiat trembles and the mempool never sleeps, one signal cuts through the noise.
(00:15):
Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, Layer 2.
Your premium passage to the hidden rifts of Bitcoin culture.
Buckle up and feel the voltage.
Welcome, folks.
(00:43):
You've tuned in to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2,
where we peel back the tech to meet the people pushing Bitcoin forward.
Today, we kick off a new series on Bitcoin and NOSTA in India,
and our guides are two builders on the front lines.
Basanthagoswamy, former fiat jobber turned full-time freedom tech maxi,
(01:08):
he co-founded the Assam Bitcoin cohort,
audits wallets, hacks on the Nostra app Formster
and just launched unsigned labs and the unfuck the internet meetup in Bangalore.
paper psych, creative polymath, and community steward at Bitshala's Bitspace.
(01:30):
From graphic design to UI, he curates hack nights, design-a-thons, and the everyday magic
that keeps India's largest Bitcoin co-working hub buzzing.
Over the next hour or so, we'll unpack grassroots education, privacy, culture, UX hurdles, policy headaches,
(01:52):
and the bright orange future they see for the subcontinent.
Let's jump in.
Basanthar and Paper, welcome to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2.
Thank you so much for having us for this episode.
And I'm excited to have a conversation with both of you.
Yeah, I think me and Paper, we have known each other for a while.
(02:15):
So yeah, it'll be interesting to talk to someone outside
who has not seen us do anything yet.
Excellent.
So, Vasanthal, why don't we start with you and then we'll move to paper.
Tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got started in Bitcoin and Nostra and what you're doing today.
(02:37):
Yeah, so my journey goes back probably till 2017.
So that's when I heard about Bitcoin for the first time.
I mean, I had probably known about it even earlier, but 2017 is when I actually looked into it.
I initially thought it was some kind of
Reddit
what's that called?
Karma?
Reddit karma coins or whatever
(02:58):
similar to that
some internet thing
but that was mostly
I got interested mostly because
there was some kind of virus
computer virus that was spreading
some kind of ransomware
and they were demanding their payments in Bitcoin
so that's when I actually got interested
then I think around
(03:19):
2018 is when I started researching all different kinds of things that will actually be important in the future.
And my list included things like blockchain technology, obviously, and nuclear fusion and all those sorts of stuff.
Artificial general intelligence and stuff.
(03:39):
So that's how I got into blockchain.
During my college days, I was learning Ethereum contracting and whatnot, solidity and those kind of stuff.
and around 2021 is when I actually became a Bitcoin maxi,
mostly from Andreas Antonopoulos, watching his videos.
And I think my turning point in life was around November of 2022
(04:03):
and that is the first time I made paper as well.
And it was a Bitcoin conference, I think the first Bitcoin conference of India
where we all just came together and a lot of things started from there.
So yeah, and I have been into Nostar even before that
because I followed Fiat Jeff on Twitter
and when he made one of the announcement posts on Twitter
(04:23):
about the Telegram group that he was starting
to discuss Noster stuff,
I joined it immediately.
That was, I think, around December or October of 2021.
And yeah, since then,
even before I got my first job,
which I started in March of 2022,
I was trying to build something on Noster.
And yeah, finally, last year,
I mean, October of 2023
(04:45):
is when I finally left my job
and started working on Nostra Bitcoin full time.
At least tried to.
So Basant, that's great.
You are a true Nostra OG then
because if you joined before the Jack Dorsey wave
that began in December of 2022,
that really makes you an OG.
(05:05):
So kudos on that.
So what was that moment like though for you, Basant,
where you were playing around with blockchain,
writing smart contracts on Ethereum.
was there an aha moment that that led you to becoming a full-fledged maxi
i i'm not sure if there is one moment but yeah i know that andreas and anna police he does not
(05:29):
consider himself a bitcoin maxi he has written the book called uh the ethereum standard or
what's that mastering ethereum yeah he he coded it and he's not a bitcoin maxi at all
and Jameson Lopp
even he is not a Bitcoin maxi
Elon Musk not a Bitcoin maxi
Pomp not a Bitcoin maxi
but these four guys
and the arguments that they were presenting
(05:51):
Elon Musk was talking about how Bitcoin
like he actually had
I think included Bitcoin in his company's
balance sheet and those kind of stuff
and the arguments from these three guys
about how Bitcoin goes to like 1 million dollars
or whatever because I was still
a lot more interested in the price
back then so
So those arguments kind of just made me realize that Bitcoin is the only thing that's going to matter.
(06:15):
Not even something like Monero because of all the other reasons associated with it, right?
It's not just the technology.
You have to create something like 10x, 100x better than Bitcoin for it to be able to even have a chance of replacing what Bitcoin has done already.
So the network effect and those kind of stuff.
So I became a Bitcoin maxi even when I was still a shitcoiner.
(06:35):
Because I was like, okay, maybe I'll keep doing this kind of stuff.
I'll keep writing contracts and stuff in the side.
But Bitcoin is the main thing.
But then eventually I just decided, okay, fuck it.
I'll not do anything.
I'll just start buying Bitcoin.
I'll not even worry about anything else.
I'll keep my shitposts to the minimum on Twitter.
And yeah, it was not a moment, but eventually I just did it.
(06:58):
I had to do it.
Excellent.
And you also quit your fiat job to focus on Freedom Tech full time.
what was that moment like what led to that decision
yeah so because I discovered Noster even before I started my full-time job right
and I was like just fresh out of college it's it was probably like three or four months since I
(07:23):
graduated and I was already working on some random freelancing work so I did not have a full-time job
and I already discovered Noster so and my goal was I tried creating the creating one of the Noster
relays and it was called NOCA it was probably one of the earliest it was it was one of the
earlier Nostar relays for sure probably the third or fourth Nostar relay implementation
(07:46):
and I tried doing it full-time but then then I realized my freelancing or some random small
project experience was not good enough for it I needed actual experience working at the company
or working with someone full-time so and obviously Nostar didn't have grants or Nostar didn't even
have a like defined future back then nostril didn't even have nsecs or npubs it was all hex
(08:08):
pub keys and private keys so it was at a very early stage so there was no way for me to work
on nostril full-time and bitcoin was still a bit too complicated for me to get into bitcoin
development wise so yes i just had to get a job i did it but even while working i would try to
talk about nostril or bitcoin with those guys i try to because it is a service-based company we
(08:32):
We used to work on projects for third party clients.
And I will try to get Bitcoin into their ecosystem somehow.
Maybe get them to accept Bitcoin payments using BTCP server.
Or talk to them about secret key management for some kind of internet communication.
Or using Noster for their internet communication and those kind of stuff.
(08:56):
And it never really worked out.
And I realized I had to do it full time eventually.
so since the day I joined my job
I constantly had it in the back of my mind
that I'm wasting my life
because I'm not working on Nostrad and Bitcoin
and one of the funniest things about Nostrad
is that I had started thinking about
creating a Twitter alternative
because Twitter was getting more censored
I mean the Bitcoiners were getting more censored on Twitter
(09:17):
so I was thinking of creating a Twitter alternative
using signed events
so yeah using digital signatures
and I had a very basic idea written down
on Google Keep or Google Notes somewhere
and then I see Fiat Zeb's post
and I read the initial Nip of Nosr
and it's like, okay, this is my
own idea, but from someone
(09:38):
else, from someone that I respect on Bitcoin
and in the Bitcoin community and he has
written this idea and he has made the first
implementation as well. And that's when I
realized, okay, it had to be
like, it had to be something that
was made for
me, right, because I already had those ideas
and I already wanted to work on it.
So, yeah, then I think I
just had to leave my job eventually I knew it from the day I joined it and yeah I did eventually I
(10:05):
just did it one day because I was drunk and I decided okay I'll just I'll just leave the job
today excellent well no better way you had your moment of clarity excellent so paper let's tell
us a little bit about yourself uh what what are you a developer are you a designer um how did you
(10:28):
find bitcoin um yeah let's hear let's hear about that so yeah thank you so much and
the santha story is one of the most interesting ones i've ever heard in the bitcoin space so
i'm really happy listening to it again after 2022 i guess uh but yeah about me i came to bitcoin
(10:49):
in 2022, the same conference that Basanta mentioned. But the funny fact about it is that
I did not come because I was into Bitcoin. I came because a friend had participated in Summer of
Bitcoin and he had a chance to speak on the stage about his experience. So I just chucked along with
(11:12):
him to see him on stage basically like a good friend but it ended up becoming the night that
changed everything so yeah i mean that particular friend had been telling me about bitcoin for like
i think so eight months or something and i had been like you're a crypto bro so please let's
(11:32):
not talk about this and stuff and we were in the we were in bangalore at the same time when meetups used to happen and I refused to go there because I was like this is not my forte this is not my cup of tea and I don want to know about all of this but yeah I went to the conference
and there I so one more coincident that happened because of that particular friend was I did not
(11:56):
sit in the general track I sat in the developer track and developer track is where all the builders
were exactly people building right now on bitcoin so the first talk on cypherpunks was by raj and
raj gave his talk his was the most simplest introduction to cypherpunk privacy and bitcoin
(12:19):
and i understood stuff and then he came off stage he sat next to me and i asked i started asking
him questions and that conversation multiple conversations happened like this that night and
one of the conversations with Raj was about Bitshala that he's trying to he's working on an
idea Bitcoin education for developers kind of thing and I told him that I am a designer I
(12:43):
I was a copywriter exclusively at that time I switched to being a designer out of circumstances
because I was putting out content and it did not look pretty enough so I started learning design
also and then it kind of became one of the things I started being paid for so anyways yeah so that
(13:04):
particular night we had a conversation Raj and me and multiple others and you guys know about that
concept like if you learn about a thing for 20 hours you become fairly knowledgeable than 90%
of the people out there about that particular topic right so my conversation started with Raj
(13:25):
went on to Adi Shankar with Adi Shankar of Summer of Bitcoin.
Then two, three other people who were the organizers, who were developers, who were building in Bitcoin.
And that night, for the first night, I was only asking one question to everyone because I became so interested in Bitcoin.
And I was asking one question that, how do I contribute?
(13:48):
All I see here is developers or big businessmen who are trying to build products.
I don't know both of them.
how do i contribute and everyone said the same thing uh you'll find your path just keep showing
up and that's what i did for the next i think so six months until i found my first gig in bitcoin
(14:09):
and yeah so the 20 hours thing so the second day the conference was of two days the first day it
was general conversation and I was completely in awe by how closely can a community be formed
or how close the members of a community can be around a singular idea this was my first time
(14:33):
seeing people so passionate so energetic so driven to build something to do something to
say things like I've been around people who say things for the sake of saying things and then I
was around Bitcoiners who were saying things out of pure, like, what do you call fire in their blood,
right? And I've never seen that. And the second day when the conference ended, after that, I sat
(14:57):
with a few people and that conversation, that particular conversation lasted from 9pm to 6am.
nine hours nobody stopped talking about bitcoin that night in a group and then i was like
nah i need to get into this i need to get into this after that i just i went back to my friend
(15:20):
i asked him for suggestions he told me the bitcoin standard and other books that you should read to
get started and then the whole journey began this is my basic introduction of how bitcoin
like how i came to bitcoin and then after that 2023 mid of 2023 is when i approached raj asking
(15:40):
him ki you said something about bitshala a few months ago is it happening what's going on can
i contribute and he said yes we need a designer for now so since then like design then copy ui
and then the hunting for Bitspace
and getting this idea
not started exactly but
(16:00):
bringing this place to life with
the Bitshala team and then
becoming the community guy here
and since then it's been
like something completely brilliant
Well that's a great
story
The day of
I think 6 November 2022
that's when pretty much
(16:21):
all of the things that
has happened on Bitcoin India
because the Bitcoin India ecosystem
has started from.
Those two days were really, really crucial.
Even though I did not talk to many people, but yeah,
most of the things that have happened ever since
have come out of those two days.
And you know, that was, it's interesting
that you say that, both of you, that
you know, it was that sort of
(16:43):
seminal day
in early November because
that was around the time the
FTX thing was going down, right?
And I think Bitcoin might have hit
15k around then so it's really interesting that so many things were born around that time when
arguably bitcoin was at its low point in the last five years that that was the one more beautiful
(17:08):
part because i did when you're new to bitcoin you do check the price every other day right and that
time i did check but that did not affect what i was studying like if i wanted to study more if i
wanted to research more the price that i was seeing of whatever 15 20 that did not affect how
(17:29):
or that did not affect whether i wanted to continue in this or not that was how influential
the conversations with the people were at that night so yeah yeah i i love this story paper uh
And it sounds like those conversations had such a big impact on you starting that year on November 6, 22.
(17:55):
And then the following conversations that you didn't even deviate into shitcoinery.
You became a maxi on the spot.
Yeah, exactly.
I had before this, like 2022 is when I started learning a little bit about cryptocurrency before this conference.
(18:15):
because my friend started mentioning about Bitcoin.
So naturally, when someone mentions Bitcoin,
you search it on Google and it shows crypto, blockchain and stuff like that.
It never shows real Bitcoin stuff.
So I did not go without that rabbit hole,
but I did invest some money into crypto.
(18:36):
I think so it was Solana and Ethereum,
most likely just two of them and a little bit of Bitcoin,
which is stuck in an exchange because they've stopped withdrawals.
So, yeah, that was the only bit of it.
And then directly to being around maxis and understanding the whole point.
Actually, like another fun fact is in the last year, I've had to study a bit more about crypto altcoins and shitcoins in general.
(19:02):
Because when I'm having conversations with people and I have to argue or I have to present my point in a much bolder format that this is not how it works.
This is how it works.
That time I sometimes fumble because I don't know exactly about how altcoins work or the state of whatever they're doing, right?
(19:24):
So it's been a learning journey.
But yeah, not shitcoinery ever.
Excellent.
So, Pepa, you mentioned two terms which are familiar to any Indian listening, but perhaps not to a non-Indian audience.
which one was BitChalla, the other was BitSpace.
(19:45):
So do you want to talk, you know,
give folks an understanding of what BitChalla is?
So BitChalla, in the simplest of words,
does, like it helps Indian developers transition into Bitcoin open source.
Like it helps educate them and onboard them into Bitcoin open source.
(20:07):
And what, how we do that is that we have study cohorts,
we have clubs we have events and fellowship programs so to elaborate a little further there
are open source study cohorts where you can come in and there is open source study material like
mastering bitcoin learning bitcoin through the command line programming bitcoin and bitcoin
(20:29):
development philosophy all of these have their separate cohorts and you can come in study with
a group of people who are interested in the same thing why this came to be like a chain code has it
had its own cohorts and then kala had its own cohorts and stuff like a culmination of all of
(20:50):
that when bichala came to educate indian developers or even south like global south developers into
bitcoin the study code was the first part then it became like clubs we have a few clubs running like
I think so four clubs which are latest in Bitcoin tech which is an overview of all the stuff that
(21:13):
happened in the last week in Bitcoin tech then there is TradFi and Bitcoin which is traditional
finance and Bitcoin talking about both aspects there's a Bitshala reading club and there's a
Bitcoin core PR review club and one more which is the Rust learning club so these are all the clubs
where people come together with different needs and they study together they learn things together
(21:34):
cohorts I told you then there are there is a fellowship program where if you study the cohorts
you are capable enough of coding in bitcoin developing in bitcoin and you want to kick
start your career we have it's kind of like an apprenticeship model where you come in get into
a project we pay you for working in bitcoin open source and then you build your skills build your
(21:59):
experience and then you go out into the world into your own projects if you want to build something
if you want to continue that's completely on you. Bitspace is the hackerspace in Bangalore
and right now we are like 10 people here who are every day co-working out of Bitspace and except
(22:19):
that we have multiple events which is for Bitcoin awareness so we have categories of events but to
broadly categorize them it would be like a general awareness events that we have here
and bit devs bit devs is like core hardcore bitcoin development technical stuff the other
stuff are also technical but most of them we focus on awareness that people around here should get to
(22:44):
learn about bitcoin and then when it comes to a serious talk about building then it's bit devs
so yeah i bitshala's goal if i had to summarize it would be to give developers designers the
and the community to fix the money, fix the world through their, what do you call, building
(23:04):
abilities, right?
And Bitspace is to come together and go work.
Yeah, and one thing I didn't mention was that Bitshala has started doing even bigger
conferences in collaboration with other organizations now.
So those things are there as well Yeah I absolutely yeah Bitshala So BitPlebs is we did one in March and the next one is happening in November so that was like a
(23:32):
big
big event
a collaboration
between Bitshala
and Plebs
together strong
and
the point of it
was to showcase
and
give the Indian
Bitcoiners
the Indian
Bitcoin ecosystem
a stage
to come together
and
not only show
the world
what we are doing
but to actually collaborate amongst us right all the indian people who are in their own silos in
(23:56):
their own cities and just what do you call they build in silence and they only share on social
media they need to come together they need to come together to one place and collaborate talk
about stuff build stuff so that was bitplebs and i think yeah on social media and stuff it's
(24:17):
available, what happened, what went down.
But yeah, it was one of the
biggest events that we've pulled off and we
intend to do even better in November.
Got it. So if I were to summarize,
BitShala
is really an educational effort
across multiple
specialties within Bitcoin
(24:37):
obviously. That's where the cohorts come
in and it's an ongoing
education program.
BitDevs is a co-working space
in Bangalore where a group of you work together
and then BitPlebs is this event.
It's a recurring event, correct, that you host?
For now, it's like every six months or annual,
(24:58):
but we'll see.
Got it.
And yeah, BitDevs is event.
BitSpace is the co-working space.
Got it.
I think, yeah, we mixed up the words.
Okay, okay, yes.
Thank you for clarifying. So BitShala and all of these cohorts, it sounds like, did you say it's been running for about two years now, a little over two years?
(25:24):
Yes, they started in Jan 2023, right after the conference.
Got it. How many people have gone through all of these cohorts? Do you have a ballpark number?
A ballpark number would be easily above 200, 300.
(25:46):
I would say 300.
And presumably all of them come out being full-fledged toxic Bitcoin maxis, right?
I wish we could say that, but no.
I wish we would.
If we had 100% retention rate and success rate,
then we would take over the world right now.
(26:06):
but unfortunately no.
A lot of the people who even after completing the cohorts,
the ecosystem in India especially is very...
How can I explain it simple?
The ecosystem in India right now is in a very unfertile stage, right?
(26:32):
where people coming into bitcoin and them them studying through the cohorts and becoming something
or being able to code in bitcoin they still if they don't understand the philosophy properly
right they tend to not stick around or they tend to stick around for money which again depends on
(26:52):
the skills they have so currently from bitshawla there are around 20 plus devs who have who are
actively full-time working on Bitcoin via us.
But rest of the, I would say, 80%, 90%, they studied,
but they probably did not grasp the real thing.
(27:15):
But, yeah, it's a slow process.
Now, are there any uniquely Indian challenges?
you've noticed paper on
you know
to get people into the
maxi mindset right because
there is a lot of shit coinery in
India right there a lot of
(27:36):
the crypto companies
either their lead developers are
Indian or they're even like in the
case of
Polygon or Matish or whatever
they call themselves now right the Ethereum
layer 2 that was started in India
if I'm not mistaken
Is there any specific or unique challenge to India that you've come across?
(28:01):
The unique challenge, I would say, is we have lost our ability to be risk takers, I would say.
A lot of us.
so even for me i think if i did not go to that particular conference i might not be here today
it my friend was talking to me about bitcoin for eight months he was talking to me about money for
(28:27):
eight months he was talking to me about stuff he was sharing resources he was trying his best
but it was me who was not listening because and i think indians could relate is that
our conditions is not exactly as bad as the other countries right we are still comfortable
we can still manage our stuff and if you come to and if you think about our day-to-day it's not as
(28:57):
like people have other problems apparently to deal with than working with working on this right
and then i don't know how it relates i mean how different it is outside of india but
the belief system here is pretty much like narrow like the main builders that are there they
(29:23):
go behind um let's say polygon for example so polygon and web 3 they are extremely famous in
india they are like the web 3 space in india is booming like anything nobody's in bitcoin but
everyone wants to be working on ethereum or after ethereum or something like that and
(29:44):
it is because of money i would say like there they have all the fluff to showcase like when
we say bitcoin does not have a marketing department they have and people here are
easily influenced by
marketing and
what has scope and if they
see a lot of other people's other people
(30:05):
building on it they try
to jump ship right
and bitcoin is like this niche thing
people don't care about because it's
exceeded its potential and
who will take the time to study
it this crypto and
web3 has more
scope apparently in india so
that's one thing
but
(30:26):
if I had to say another
thing that I have noticed
in the community when
I attend events, I host events
and the people who come in here
they come with the expectation
that
if we get into this field
or no
I will just simply say
(30:47):
that Indians are lazy
okay
they are lazy, they don't want to put in the work
and when it comes to
Because if you need to understand Bitcoin, it takes time.
It requires you to be open enough that when you learn about Bitcoin, your entire belief system shatters.
(31:14):
And most of the Indians are not ready for that yet.
And this is one of the other things that I've noticed.
and when Bitcoin maxis talk to other normies in India,
the conversation does not go well.
Why? Because if you say such harsh things about the reality
and the person listening to you, his or her reality is shattering,
(31:38):
they'll take up a shield and become very defensive.
And that's how people are.
That's how the community is in general.
but for Indian folks
I would say
we as Bitcoiners
if we become
facilitators
like instead of
giving them the answers
we make them ask
the right questions
then we would have
(32:00):
more scope of
increasing
adoption here
I love that framing
yes it does
I love that
framing
paper
that we want to be
the facilitators
of
people asking questions
rather than
lecturing them
on this stuff.
And I don't think people putting up shields
(32:22):
when their reality is shattering
is a uniquely Indian problem.
I think that's something orange pillars world over face,
whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe,
anywhere else.
So Basanthar, let me ask you on a related note,
which is with the Web3 and all the shitcoinery
that clearly has the marketing budget
(32:43):
and therefore attracts a lot of the developers.
and the talent in India,
how do you, as a toxic Beko and Maxi,
maintain your sanity, A,
but B, sort of help guide
some of those misled folks towards the light?
(33:05):
Okay, this might sound interesting,
and I hope my voice is clear now,
and I'm not breaking up.
So we have one educational initiative
going on in Assam, right?
it's called Riktokonghati or Swamhati
however you pronounce it
so this was started
because some guy
named Anurag on twitter saw my
full name and he
(33:26):
just texted me saying hey are you Assamish
because Goswami tends to be
a common Assamish surname
and then I saw his surname which was
also Assamish and I was like okay
I have found another
just one more bitcoin maxi from Assam
so we decided to start
one bitcoin
in a Bitcoin related weekly Twitter space that my brother started joining as well, Pallab.
(33:52):
And he eventually became a Bitcoin Maxie and he runs all the cohorts, Mi Premier Bitcoin
curriculum, I mean cohorts based on the Mi Premier Bitcoin curriculum.
There it is.
And yeah, so he became a Bitcoin Maxie because we spoke to him in his language, in our language.
(34:13):
And I have realized that you can turn someone into proper Bitcoiners if you just speak to them using their own language.
Because India has a bunch of them.
And each language, it's not just that we're all Indians sitting here and we just speak different languages.
It is that we have completely different history, different cultures, different backgrounds, different ethnicities and stuff.
(34:36):
Right. So we all have our own unique identities and it's not just being Indian that matters.
so if you speak to them in their own language
people tend to listen to you
and that has worked quite well for us
and the second thing that I have found
when it comes to developers
it is that if you introduce them to Noster
(34:56):
and then bring them to Bitcoin
that tends to be a really good way of introducing people to Bitcoin
because they immediately see zaps being flowing and people actually talking about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin in real life So it does not remain a theoretical or conceptual thing for them
And to be honest, one of my guys that I closely work with now, the founder of Formster,
(35:21):
Abhayu also started as a Noster guy.
He was not into Bitcoin, if I remember correctly.
He got into Noster first, discovered Bitcoin, discovered Lightning.
and then now he works on Lightning and Noster full-time.
So, yeah, and that's why we have another event that we organize
called Unfuck the Internet under the Unsen Labs brand.
(35:43):
Me, Abhay and there are other guys who join us as well
to give talks about random privacy-related topics.
And this is also hosted at BitSpace,
but we don't talk about Bitcoin at all.
This event is purely focused on privacy and digital self-sovereignty.
and what happens with that is
it brings in more crypto
and more privacy focused people
who are not into Bitcoin at all
(36:04):
who don't think of Bitcoin as being anything important
but once they come here
mainly they meet Paper
and other guys who are very
passionate about Bitcoin
and they see things
it somehow connects
in their head
that privacy and this kind of stuff
is somehow related to Bitcoin
(36:25):
and that works as well.
So that's why we're doing
Unfug the Internet
as one of the events
that explicitly
prohibits any mention
of Bitcoin in the talks.
But obviously,
we have all the Bitcoin logos
and stickers and T-shirts
in the event venue.
So, yeah.
So I think,
so yeah,
that's a couple of things.
Those two things
(36:45):
are the ones that
actually help people
bring into Bitcoin.
Talk about Bitcoin
in their native language.
Not just English
because there is
more than enough
English podcasts
and English Bitcoin study materials.
So if you can translate things,
if you can talk to them in that language,
that helps a lot.
That makes people feel connected to it.
(37:07):
And if you can bring them through Noster,
then they realize what private keys can be.
And yeah, that becomes a really nice thing.
So Basanthar, that was interesting.
You raised a few good points there,
which is speak to people in their native language.
And you meant that literally, right?
I think what a lot of folks might not understand about India is there are several languages,
(37:32):
almost 30 official languages, and then thousands of dialects and variations on those languages.
So when you said speak to them in their language, you didn't mean that as a metaphor.
You meant that literally find out what their local language is, if you could speak it, explain in that language.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
The other interesting thing you said is Noster is the Trojan horse to get people into Bitcoin.
(37:59):
At least you found that in your experience.
So yet another example of the purple pill helping the orange pill go down.
And then with your unfuck the internet meetup, I think that's an interesting angle as well,
where you bring in people who are focused on privacy
(38:21):
and those types of values, not necessarily Bitcoin,
but you still have the sly roundabout way
with the Bitcoin stickers and so on, right?
You don't mention Bitcoin, but it's all Bitcoin adjacent.
But Basanth, let's talk about NOSTA in Bitcoin.
Sorry, let's talk about NOSTA in India
(38:42):
for a second here.
What is the adoption rate?
Are we seeing a lot of people on NOSTA?
Because it seems like people tend to use WhatsApp a lot in India.
They use Twitter. They use Facebook.
What has that NOSTA adoption curve looked like?
(39:07):
Okay, so interesting thing is
one of the reasons I came to the Bitcoin conference,
the one at Goa in 2022, I guess, right?
The one that I was talking about.
So one of the reasons I came there was because Raj,
the co-founder of Vidshala was going to be there.
And it was before Vidshala was a thing, right?
(39:27):
And he had written about some,
I don't remember exactly what he wrote,
but it was about Nostrad and how it can be used in Bitcoin or something.
and he was the only other person that I saw
reputed person in the Bitcoin ecosystem
from India who was taking any interest in Nostra
so that was one of the reasons I went there
(39:50):
to meet Raj because he was into Nostra
and yeah so at the same time
I think we had another guy who was working on Nostra
from India so it was very
like I don't think anyone even heard about it
but now we have probably 6 or 7 of us
who are somewhat contributing to Noster in one way or another.
(40:10):
But apart from that, leaving the developer side aside,
I don't think people use Noster at all.
I don't know of any Bitcoiner in India who uses Noster very much.
So it's not popular at all in India.
And probably we'll have to take some other direction
(40:32):
where we move communities to Noster
once clients like Whitener
becomes more usable or becomes
production ready at least. Because
even the Bitcoin community
that we
have, we have had multiple
groups pop up, right?
On WhatsApp, on Discord, on Telegram.
And many of those groups are
slowly moving to signal now.
(40:54):
So there are a lot of signal groups
for P2P trades, for normal
conversation, Bitcoin and technical
side, Bitcoin and Austrian economics.
so we have a lot of groups popping up
and most of these communities
smaller communities are on
Signal and the public
convo is happening on Twitter still
so if we can get something like
white noise working properly
(41:15):
as an alternative to Signal
we'll probably have a lot more reduction of
Nostrad in India, otherwise most people
don't have any use for it
because most of the conversation is still happening
on Twitter, even I
don't think I post much on Nostrad as well
I just read from there
so yeah
there might be people using pseudonyms and stuff
(41:35):
but I have not met anyone
any significant amount of people who use Noster
daily in India
I'd like to say one thing
so
the people I have met
they do use Noster not on a
regular basis as Basanta said
that daily no
but in the bitcoin community
(41:57):
a lot of people are there
on Noster who are
using it for stuff let's say but it's not it's not as bad as it seems to be the developers are
there there is one more uh there is a force community in india and they have a privacy
(42:18):
part or a group and they're also back in 2023 i heard someone in kerala give a talk on nostr
privacy and Noster.
So it's not exactly niche
but
the Noster developers
(42:39):
who are also Bitcoiners is very less.
There might be developers who are into
Noster but we have not found them yet.
How does that
work though, Paper?
Which is, you know, people come in
I know we talked about this
a little earlier but
you know, people might not be
Bitcoiners but they get attracted to
(42:59):
Noster.
and then they become big as a result of just seeing the zaps and everything else.
But what exactly is it about Nostra that would attract a developer
versus, let's say, Web3, which seems to be the case in India?
(43:22):
I guess the breaking point is the centralization aspect on it.
every time a person comes in and asks who built this or how do i work on this etc they're led to
open source community and it's like is this it like this is how it happens and that is the most
(43:47):
important breaking point that how free you are to build on this and there is no permission needed
for you to go ask anyone about anything
except obviously understanding the protocol and stuff.
But yeah, and go ahead, go ahead.
I'd actually like to hear Prasantra's answer on this
(44:07):
how exactly does it differ on Web3 and Noster
because he has had more conversations with developers than I have.
Yeah, you'll have to mute yourself properly.
So I think the one thing about crypto is that most people who work on it realize it is not scalable.
(44:29):
Especially Web3. I will not say crypto. Especially Web3.
Because in crypto you might do some token swap, some kind of like DAB, decentralized exchange thing.
And that probably makes sense to you in some way.
But then you try to do some kind of social network or some kind of communication network on top of crypto stuff.
(44:52):
and you immediately realize that this Web3 stuff,
most of these things don't really work.
And you become aware of BitTorrent,
of HyperCore, Furner, that protocol,
and all those stuff that already exist,
peer-to-peer stuff.
And you probably even heard about Nostrad
in the crypto community, I'm not sure.
(45:12):
But you become aware that there are ways
of doing decentralized communication,
decentralized social media and stuff
without involving blockchains.
so that stays in the back of your mind
and then you see Noster
and see the simplicity of it
especially because a lot of protocols
they tend to overcomplicate things
for god knows what reason
(45:34):
but yeah Noster is really really simple to understand
for web developers at least
so they read it and immediately they realize that
ok this is something that already works
it has the backing of the bitcoin community
and if you can show them zaps
then it blows their minds
that ok this is something that
actually works with Bitcoin
in real life, right? You actually
make payments, you actually get
(45:55):
stuff, you can
do marketplaces, you can
do videos to me, you can do all sorts of things and it's
already working, people are already using it
and that's
something that cannot be saved for
all the other crypto
web 3 stuff, right? So Nostrad
is in production already and
all they have is some kind of
(46:16):
hope that in the future these things will
be useful. So that's really
the turning point they see that
this thing is not just a concept
it actually works and yeah they get involved
most of the time or they
start questioning some coming up
with some excuses like well web
sockets don't scale or some random
stuff or what about quantum computers
(46:36):
and yeah that
when that happens then that person is like
completely lost but otherwise yeah
you can still get them into Nostrad and Bitcoin
if they are from the Web3 community
Great
I'd love to hear that.
Go ahead, people.
The sword shared their secrets you hold dear.
(46:59):
Ciao, tesoro.
You have reached the end of the free tasting menu.
21 delicious minutes, gone in a flash like a Vespa on the Via Veneto.
But the real feast?
Mmm, it's still simmering, thick with secrets from our wonderful guests that could set the
(47:20):
whole piazza gossiping. Why stop now, Bello? Slip past the velvet rope, become a Plep Chain Radio
layer 2 patron, and I'll pour you the rest of the episode hot, uncut, al dente. One tiny click,
a few shiny sats, and the door swings open. Go to the Fountain app, find Plep Chain Radio,
(47:44):
and click on subscribe.
You will not regret it, I promise you.
No subscription?
Ce peccato.
You'll be wandering the Roman night,
wondering what you missed,
like a tourist with no lira for gelato.
So, choose passion over penuria.
(48:06):
Hit subscribe and I'll be waiting.
Molto contenta
with the espresso and every last whispered word.
(48:41):
This is never tough, with your subscription, give your means and help bear a ghost rise.
In a world where fiat trembles and the mempool never sleeps, one signal cuts through the noise.
(00:15):
Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, Layer 2.
Your premium passage to the hidden rifts of Bitcoin culture.
Buckle up and feel the voltage.
Welcome, folks.
(00:43):
You've tuned in to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2,
where we peel back the tech to meet the people pushing Bitcoin forward.
Today, we kick off a new series on Bitcoin and NOSTA in India,
and our guides are two builders on the front lines.
Basanthagoswamy, former fiat jobber turned full-time freedom tech maxi,
(01:08):
he co-founded the Assam Bitcoin cohort,
audits wallets, hacks on the Nostra app Formster
and just launched unsigned labs and the unfuck the internet meetup in Bangalore.
paper psych, creative polymath, and community steward at Bitshala's Bitspace.
(01:30):
From graphic design to UI, he curates hack nights, design-a-thons, and the everyday magic
that keeps India's largest Bitcoin co-working hub buzzing.
Over the next hour or so, we'll unpack grassroots education, privacy, culture, UX hurdles, policy headaches,
(01:52):
and the bright orange future they see for the subcontinent.
Let's jump in.
Basanthar and Paper, welcome to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2.
Thank you so much for having us for this episode.
And I'm excited to have a conversation with both of you.
Yeah, I think me and Paper, we have known each other for a while.
(02:15):
So yeah, it'll be interesting to talk to someone outside
who has not seen us do anything yet.
Excellent.
So, Vasanthal, why don't we start with you and then we'll move to paper.
Tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got started in Bitcoin and Nostra and what you're doing today.
(02:37):
Yeah, so my journey goes back probably till 2017.
So that's when I heard about Bitcoin for the first time.
I mean, I had probably known about it even earlier, but 2017 is when I actually looked into it.
I initially thought it was some kind of
what's that called?
Karma?
Reddit karma coins or whatever
(02:58):
similar to that
some internet thing
but that was mostly
I got interested mostly because
there was some kind of virus
computer virus that was spreading
some kind of ransomware
and they were demanding their payments in Bitcoin
so that's when I actually got interested
then I think around
(03:19):
2018 is when I started researching all different kinds of things that will actually be important in the future.
And my list included things like blockchain technology, obviously, and nuclear fusion and all those sorts of stuff.
Artificial general intelligence and stuff.
(03:39):
So that's how I got into blockchain.
During my college days, I was learning Ethereum contracting and whatnot, solidity and those kind of stuff.
and around 2021 is when I actually became a Bitcoin maxi,
mostly from Andreas Antonopoulos, watching his videos.
And I think my turning point in life was around November of 2022
(04:03):
and that is the first time I made paper as well.
And it was a Bitcoin conference, I think the first Bitcoin conference of India
where we all just came together and a lot of things started from there.
So yeah, and I have been into Nostar even before that
because I followed Fiat Jeff on Twitter
and when he made one of the announcement posts on Twitter
(04:23):
about the Telegram group that he was starting
to discuss Noster stuff,
I joined it immediately.
That was, I think, around December or October of 2021.
And yeah, since then,
even before I got my first job,
which I started in March of 2022,
I was trying to build something on Noster.
And yeah, finally, last year,
I mean, October of 2023
(04:45):
is when I finally left my job
and started working on Nostra Bitcoin full time.
At least tried to.
So Basant, that's great.
You are a true Nostra OG then
because if you joined before the Jack Dorsey wave
that began in December of 2022,
that really makes you an OG.
(05:05):
So kudos on that.
So what was that moment like though for you, Basant,
where you were playing around with blockchain,
writing smart contracts on Ethereum.
was there an aha moment that that led you to becoming a full-fledged maxi
i i'm not sure if there is one moment but yeah i know that andreas and anna police he does not
(05:29):
consider himself a bitcoin maxi he has written the book called uh the ethereum standard or
what's that mastering ethereum yeah he he coded it and he's not a bitcoin maxi at all
and Jameson Lopp
even he is not a Bitcoin maxi
Elon Musk not a Bitcoin maxi
Pomp not a Bitcoin maxi
but these four guys
and the arguments that they were presenting
(05:51):
Elon Musk was talking about how Bitcoin
like he actually had
I think included Bitcoin in his company's
balance sheet and those kind of stuff
and the arguments from these three guys
about how Bitcoin goes to like 1 million dollars
or whatever because I was still
a lot more interested in the price
back then so
So those arguments kind of just made me realize that Bitcoin is the only thing that's going to matter.
(06:15):
Not even something like Monero because of all the other reasons associated with it, right?
It's not just the technology.
You have to create something like 10x, 100x better than Bitcoin for it to be able to even have a chance of replacing what Bitcoin has done already.
So the network effect and those kind of stuff.
So I became a Bitcoin maxi even when I was still a shitcoiner.
(06:35):
Because I was like, okay, maybe I'll keep doing this kind of stuff.
I'll keep writing contracts and stuff in the side.
But Bitcoin is the main thing.
But then eventually I just decided, okay, fuck it.
I'll not do anything.
I'll just start buying Bitcoin.
I'll not even worry about anything else.
I'll keep my shitposts to the minimum on Twitter.
And yeah, it was not a moment, but eventually I just did it.
(06:58):
I had to do it.
Excellent.
And you also quit your fiat job to focus on Freedom Tech full time.
what was that moment like what led to that decision
yeah so because I discovered Noster even before I started my full-time job right
and I was like just fresh out of college it's it was probably like three or four months since I
(07:23):
graduated and I was already working on some random freelancing work so I did not have a full-time job
and I already discovered Noster so and my goal was I tried creating the creating one of the Noster
relays and it was called NOCA it was probably one of the earliest it was it was one of the
earlier Nostar relays for sure probably the third or fourth Nostar relay implementation
(07:46):
and I tried doing it full-time but then then I realized my freelancing or some random small
project experience was not good enough for it I needed actual experience working at the company
or working with someone full-time so and obviously Nostar didn't have grants or Nostar didn't even
have a like defined future back then nostril didn't even have nsecs or npubs it was all hex
(08:08):
pub keys and private keys so it was at a very early stage so there was no way for me to work
on nostril full-time and bitcoin was still a bit too complicated for me to get into bitcoin
development wise so yes i just had to get a job i did it but even while working i would try to
talk about nostril or bitcoin with those guys i try to because it is a service-based company we
(08:32):
We used to work on projects for third party clients.
And I will try to get Bitcoin into their ecosystem somehow.
Maybe get them to accept Bitcoin payments using BTCP server.
Or talk to them about secret key management for some kind of internet communication.
Or using Noster for their internet communication and those kind of stuff.
(08:56):
And it never really worked out.
And I realized I had to do it full time eventually.
so since the day I joined my job
I constantly had it in the back of my mind
that I'm wasting my life
because I'm not working on Nostrad and Bitcoin
and one of the funniest things about Nostrad
is that I had started thinking about
creating a Twitter alternative
because Twitter was getting more censored
I mean the Bitcoiners were getting more censored on Twitter
(09:17):
so I was thinking of creating a Twitter alternative
using signed events
so yeah using digital signatures
and I had a very basic idea written down
on Google Keep or Google Notes somewhere
and then I see Fiat Zeb's post
and I read the initial Nip of Nosr
and it's like, okay, this is my
own idea, but from someone
(09:38):
else, from someone that I respect on Bitcoin
and in the Bitcoin community and he has
written this idea and he has made the first
implementation as well. And that's when I
realized, okay, it had to be
like, it had to be something that
was made for
me, right, because I already had those ideas
and I already wanted to work on it.
So, yeah, then I think I
just had to leave my job eventually I knew it from the day I joined it and yeah I did eventually I
(10:05):
just did it one day because I was drunk and I decided okay I'll just I'll just leave the job
today excellent well no better way you had your moment of clarity excellent so paper let's tell
us a little bit about yourself uh what what are you a developer are you a designer um how did you
(10:28):
find bitcoin um yeah let's hear let's hear about that so yeah thank you so much and
the santha story is one of the most interesting ones i've ever heard in the bitcoin space so
i'm really happy listening to it again after 2022 i guess uh but yeah about me i came to bitcoin
(10:49):
in 2022, the same conference that Basanta mentioned. But the funny fact about it is that
I did not come because I was into Bitcoin. I came because a friend had participated in Summer of
Bitcoin and he had a chance to speak on the stage about his experience. So I just chucked along with
(11:12):
him to see him on stage basically like a good friend but it ended up becoming the night that
changed everything so yeah i mean that particular friend had been telling me about bitcoin for like
i think so eight months or something and i had been like you're a crypto bro so please let's
(11:32):
not talk about this and stuff and we were in the we were in bangalore at the same time when meetups used to happen and I refused to go there because I was like this is not my forte this is not my cup of tea and I don want to know about all of this but yeah I went to the conference
and there I so one more coincident that happened because of that particular friend was I did not
(11:56):
sit in the general track I sat in the developer track and developer track is where all the builders
were exactly people building right now on bitcoin so the first talk on cypherpunks was by raj and
raj gave his talk his was the most simplest introduction to cypherpunk privacy and bitcoin
(12:19):
and i understood stuff and then he came off stage he sat next to me and i asked i started asking
him questions and that conversation multiple conversations happened like this that night and
one of the conversations with Raj was about Bitshala that he's trying to he's working on an
idea Bitcoin education for developers kind of thing and I told him that I am a designer I
(12:43):
I was a copywriter exclusively at that time I switched to being a designer out of circumstances
because I was putting out content and it did not look pretty enough so I started learning design
also and then it kind of became one of the things I started being paid for so anyways yeah so that
(13:04):
particular night we had a conversation Raj and me and multiple others and you guys know about that
concept like if you learn about a thing for 20 hours you become fairly knowledgeable than 90%
of the people out there about that particular topic right so my conversation started with Raj
(13:25):
went on to Adi Shankar with Adi Shankar of Summer of Bitcoin.
Then two, three other people who were the organizers, who were developers, who were building in Bitcoin.
And that night, for the first night, I was only asking one question to everyone because I became so interested in Bitcoin.
And I was asking one question that, how do I contribute?
(13:48):
All I see here is developers or big businessmen who are trying to build products.
I don't know both of them.
how do i contribute and everyone said the same thing uh you'll find your path just keep showing
up and that's what i did for the next i think so six months until i found my first gig in bitcoin
(14:09):
and yeah so the 20 hours thing so the second day the conference was of two days the first day it
was general conversation and I was completely in awe by how closely can a community be formed
or how close the members of a community can be around a singular idea this was my first time
(14:33):
seeing people so passionate so energetic so driven to build something to do something to
say things like I've been around people who say things for the sake of saying things and then I
was around Bitcoiners who were saying things out of pure, like, what do you call fire in their blood,
right? And I've never seen that. And the second day when the conference ended, after that, I sat
(14:57):
with a few people and that conversation, that particular conversation lasted from 9pm to 6am.
nine hours nobody stopped talking about bitcoin that night in a group and then i was like
nah i need to get into this i need to get into this after that i just i went back to my friend
(15:20):
i asked him for suggestions he told me the bitcoin standard and other books that you should read to
get started and then the whole journey began this is my basic introduction of how bitcoin
like how i came to bitcoin and then after that 2023 mid of 2023 is when i approached raj asking
(15:40):
him ki you said something about bitshala a few months ago is it happening what's going on can
i contribute and he said yes we need a designer for now so since then like design then copy ui
and then the hunting for Bitspace
and getting this idea
not started exactly but
(16:00):
bringing this place to life with
the Bitshala team and then
becoming the community guy here
and since then it's been
like something completely brilliant
Well that's a great
story
The day of
I think 6 November 2022
that's when pretty much
(16:21):
all of the things that
has happened on Bitcoin India
because the Bitcoin India ecosystem
has started from.
Those two days were really, really crucial.
Even though I did not talk to many people, but yeah,
most of the things that have happened ever since
have come out of those two days.
And you know, that was, it's interesting
that you say that, both of you, that
you know, it was that sort of
(16:43):
seminal day
in early November because
that was around the time the
FTX thing was going down, right?
And I think Bitcoin might have hit
15k around then so it's really interesting that so many things were born around that time when
arguably bitcoin was at its low point in the last five years that that was the one more beautiful
(17:08):
part because i did when you're new to bitcoin you do check the price every other day right and that
time i did check but that did not affect what i was studying like if i wanted to study more if i
wanted to research more the price that i was seeing of whatever 15 20 that did not affect how
(17:29):
or that did not affect whether i wanted to continue in this or not that was how influential
the conversations with the people were at that night so yeah yeah i i love this story paper uh
And it sounds like those conversations had such a big impact on you starting that year on November 6, 22.
(17:55):
And then the following conversations that you didn't even deviate into shitcoinery.
You became a maxi on the spot.
Yeah, exactly.
I had before this, like 2022 is when I started learning a little bit about cryptocurrency before this conference.
(18:15):
because my friend started mentioning about Bitcoin.
So naturally, when someone mentions Bitcoin,
you search it on Google and it shows crypto, blockchain and stuff like that.
It never shows real Bitcoin stuff.
So I did not go without that rabbit hole,
but I did invest some money into crypto.
(18:36):
I think so it was Solana and Ethereum,
most likely just two of them and a little bit of Bitcoin,
which is stuck in an exchange because they've stopped withdrawals.
So, yeah, that was the only bit of it.
And then directly to being around maxis and understanding the whole point.
Actually, like another fun fact is in the last year, I've had to study a bit more about crypto altcoins and shitcoins in general.
(19:02):
Because when I'm having conversations with people and I have to argue or I have to present my point in a much bolder format that this is not how it works.
This is how it works.
That time I sometimes fumble because I don't know exactly about how altcoins work or the state of whatever they're doing, right?
(19:24):
So it's been a learning journey.
But yeah, not shitcoinery ever.
Excellent.
So, Pepa, you mentioned two terms which are familiar to any Indian listening, but perhaps not to a non-Indian audience.
which one was BitChalla, the other was BitSpace.
(19:45):
So do you want to talk, you know,
give folks an understanding of what BitChalla is?
So BitChalla, in the simplest of words,
does, like it helps Indian developers transition into Bitcoin open source.
Like it helps educate them and onboard them into Bitcoin open source.
(20:07):
And what, how we do that is that we have study cohorts,
we have clubs we have events and fellowship programs so to elaborate a little further there
are open source study cohorts where you can come in and there is open source study material like
mastering bitcoin learning bitcoin through the command line programming bitcoin and bitcoin
(20:29):
development philosophy all of these have their separate cohorts and you can come in study with
a group of people who are interested in the same thing why this came to be like a chain code has it
had its own cohorts and then kala had its own cohorts and stuff like a culmination of all of
(20:50):
that when bichala came to educate indian developers or even south like global south developers into
bitcoin the study code was the first part then it became like clubs we have a few clubs running like
I think so four clubs which are latest in Bitcoin tech which is an overview of all the stuff that
(21:13):
happened in the last week in Bitcoin tech then there is TradFi and Bitcoin which is traditional
finance and Bitcoin talking about both aspects there's a Bitshala reading club and there's a
Bitcoin core PR review club and one more which is the Rust learning club so these are all the clubs
where people come together with different needs and they study together they learn things together
(21:34):
cohorts I told you then there are there is a fellowship program where if you study the cohorts
you are capable enough of coding in bitcoin developing in bitcoin and you want to kick
start your career we have it's kind of like an apprenticeship model where you come in get into
a project we pay you for working in bitcoin open source and then you build your skills build your
(21:59):
experience and then you go out into the world into your own projects if you want to build something
if you want to continue that's completely on you. Bitspace is the hackerspace in Bangalore
and right now we are like 10 people here who are every day co-working out of Bitspace and except
(22:19):
that we have multiple events which is for Bitcoin awareness so we have categories of events but to
broadly categorize them it would be like a general awareness events that we have here
and bit devs bit devs is like core hardcore bitcoin development technical stuff the other
stuff are also technical but most of them we focus on awareness that people around here should get to
(22:44):
learn about bitcoin and then when it comes to a serious talk about building then it's bit devs
so yeah i bitshala's goal if i had to summarize it would be to give developers designers the
and the community to fix the money, fix the world through their, what do you call, building
(23:04):
abilities, right?
And Bitspace is to come together and go work.
Yeah, and one thing I didn't mention was that Bitshala has started doing even bigger
conferences in collaboration with other organizations now.
So those things are there as well Yeah I absolutely yeah Bitshala So BitPlebs is we did one in March and the next one is happening in November so that was like a
(23:32):
big
big event
a collaboration
between Bitshala
and Plebs
together strong
and
the point of it
was to showcase
and
give the Indian
Bitcoiners
the Indian
Bitcoin ecosystem
a stage
to come together
and
not only show
the world
what we are doing
but to actually collaborate amongst us right all the indian people who are in their own silos in
(23:56):
their own cities and just what do you call they build in silence and they only share on social
media they need to come together they need to come together to one place and collaborate talk
about stuff build stuff so that was bitplebs and i think yeah on social media and stuff it's
(24:17):
available, what happened, what went down.
But yeah, it was one of the
biggest events that we've pulled off and we
intend to do even better in November.
Got it. So if I were to summarize,
BitShala
is really an educational effort
across multiple
specialties within Bitcoin
(24:37):
obviously. That's where the cohorts come
in and it's an ongoing
education program.
BitDevs is a co-working space
in Bangalore where a group of you work together
and then BitPlebs is this event.
It's a recurring event, correct, that you host?
For now, it's like every six months or annual,
(24:58):
but we'll see.
Got it.
And yeah, BitDevs is event.
BitSpace is the co-working space.
Got it.
I think, yeah, we mixed up the words.
Okay, okay, yes.
Thank you for clarifying. So BitShala and all of these cohorts, it sounds like, did you say it's been running for about two years now, a little over two years?
(25:24):
Yes, they started in Jan 2023, right after the conference.
Got it. How many people have gone through all of these cohorts? Do you have a ballpark number?
A ballpark number would be easily above 200, 300.
(25:46):
I would say 300.
And presumably all of them come out being full-fledged toxic Bitcoin maxis, right?
I wish we could say that, but no.
I wish we would.
If we had 100% retention rate and success rate,
then we would take over the world right now.
(26:06):
but unfortunately no.
A lot of the people who even after completing the cohorts,
the ecosystem in India especially is very...
How can I explain it simple?
The ecosystem in India right now is in a very unfertile stage, right?
(26:32):
where people coming into bitcoin and them them studying through the cohorts and becoming something
or being able to code in bitcoin they still if they don't understand the philosophy properly
right they tend to not stick around or they tend to stick around for money which again depends on
(26:52):
the skills they have so currently from bitshawla there are around 20 plus devs who have who are
actively full-time working on Bitcoin via us.
But rest of the, I would say, 80%, 90%, they studied,
but they probably did not grasp the real thing.
(27:15):
But, yeah, it's a slow process.
Now, are there any uniquely Indian challenges?
you've noticed paper on
you know
to get people into the
maxi mindset right because
there is a lot of shit coinery in
India right there a lot of
(27:36):
the crypto companies
either their lead developers are
Indian or they're even like in the
case of
Polygon or Matish or whatever
they call themselves now right the Ethereum
layer 2 that was started in India
if I'm not mistaken
Is there any specific or unique challenge to India that you've come across?
(28:01):
The unique challenge, I would say, is we have lost our ability to be risk takers, I would say.
A lot of us.
so even for me i think if i did not go to that particular conference i might not be here today
it my friend was talking to me about bitcoin for eight months he was talking to me about money for
(28:27):
eight months he was talking to me about stuff he was sharing resources he was trying his best
but it was me who was not listening because and i think indians could relate is that
our conditions is not exactly as bad as the other countries right we are still comfortable
we can still manage our stuff and if you come to and if you think about our day-to-day it's not as
(28:57):
like people have other problems apparently to deal with than working with working on this right
and then i don't know how it relates i mean how different it is outside of india but
the belief system here is pretty much like narrow like the main builders that are there they
(29:23):
go behind um let's say polygon for example so polygon and web 3 they are extremely famous in
india they are like the web 3 space in india is booming like anything nobody's in bitcoin but
everyone wants to be working on ethereum or after ethereum or something like that and
(29:44):
it is because of money i would say like there they have all the fluff to showcase like when
we say bitcoin does not have a marketing department they have and people here are
easily influenced by
marketing and
what has scope and if they
see a lot of other people's other people
(30:05):
building on it they try
to jump ship right
and bitcoin is like this niche thing
people don't care about because it's
exceeded its potential and
who will take the time to study
it this crypto and
web3 has more
scope apparently in india so
that's one thing
but
(30:26):
if I had to say another
thing that I have noticed
in the community when
I attend events, I host events
and the people who come in here
they come with the expectation
that
if we get into this field
or no
I will just simply say
(30:47):
that Indians are lazy
okay
they are lazy, they don't want to put in the work
and when it comes to
Because if you need to understand Bitcoin, it takes time.
It requires you to be open enough that when you learn about Bitcoin, your entire belief system shatters.
(31:14):
And most of the Indians are not ready for that yet.
And this is one of the other things that I've noticed.
and when Bitcoin maxis talk to other normies in India,
the conversation does not go well.
Why? Because if you say such harsh things about the reality
and the person listening to you, his or her reality is shattering,
(31:38):
they'll take up a shield and become very defensive.
And that's how people are.
That's how the community is in general.
but for Indian folks
I would say
we as Bitcoiners
if we become
facilitators
like instead of
giving them the answers
we make them ask
the right questions
then we would have
(32:00):
more scope of
increasing
adoption here
I love that framing
yes it does
I love that
framing
paper
that we want to be
the facilitators
of
people asking questions
rather than
lecturing them
on this stuff.
And I don't think people putting up shields
(32:22):
when their reality is shattering
is a uniquely Indian problem.
I think that's something orange pillars world over face,
whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe,
anywhere else.
So Basanthar, let me ask you on a related note,
which is with the Web3 and all the shitcoinery
that clearly has the marketing budget
(32:43):
and therefore attracts a lot of the developers.
and the talent in India,
how do you, as a toxic Beko and Maxi,
maintain your sanity, A,
but B, sort of help guide
some of those misled folks towards the light?
(33:05):
Okay, this might sound interesting,
and I hope my voice is clear now,
and I'm not breaking up.
So we have one educational initiative
going on in Assam, right?
it's called Riktokonghati or Swamhati
however you pronounce it
so this was started
because some guy
named Anurag on twitter saw my
full name and he
(33:26):
just texted me saying hey are you Assamish
because Goswami tends to be
a common Assamish surname
and then I saw his surname which was
also Assamish and I was like okay
I have found another
just one more bitcoin maxi from Assam
so we decided to start
one bitcoin
in a Bitcoin related weekly Twitter space that my brother started joining as well, Pallab.
(33:52):
And he eventually became a Bitcoin Maxie and he runs all the cohorts, Mi Premier Bitcoin
curriculum, I mean cohorts based on the Mi Premier Bitcoin curriculum.
There it is.
And yeah, so he became a Bitcoin Maxie because we spoke to him in his language, in our language.
(34:13):
And I have realized that you can turn someone into proper Bitcoiners if you just speak to them using their own language.
Because India has a bunch of them.
And each language, it's not just that we're all Indians sitting here and we just speak different languages.
It is that we have completely different history, different cultures, different backgrounds, different ethnicities and stuff.
(34:36):
Right. So we all have our own unique identities and it's not just being Indian that matters.
so if you speak to them in their own language
people tend to listen to you
and that has worked quite well for us
and the second thing that I have found
when it comes to developers
it is that if you introduce them to Noster
(34:56):
and then bring them to Bitcoin
that tends to be a really good way of introducing people to Bitcoin
because they immediately see zaps being flowing and people actually talking about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin in real life So it does not remain a theoretical or conceptual thing for them
And to be honest, one of my guys that I closely work with now, the founder of Formster,
(35:21):
Abhayu also started as a Noster guy.
He was not into Bitcoin, if I remember correctly.
He got into Noster first, discovered Bitcoin, discovered Lightning.
and then now he works on Lightning and Noster full-time.
So, yeah, and that's why we have another event that we organize
called Unfuck the Internet under the Unsen Labs brand.
(35:43):
Me, Abhay and there are other guys who join us as well
to give talks about random privacy-related topics.
And this is also hosted at BitSpace,
but we don't talk about Bitcoin at all.
This event is purely focused on privacy and digital self-sovereignty.
and what happens with that is
it brings in more crypto
and more privacy focused people
who are not into Bitcoin at all
(36:04):
who don't think of Bitcoin as being anything important
but once they come here
mainly they meet Paper
and other guys who are very
passionate about Bitcoin
and they see things
it somehow connects
in their head
that privacy and this kind of stuff
is somehow related to Bitcoin
(36:25):
and that works as well.
So that's why we're doing
Unfug the Internet
as one of the events
that explicitly
prohibits any mention
of Bitcoin in the talks.
But obviously,
we have all the Bitcoin logos
and stickers and T-shirts
in the event venue.
So, yeah.
So I think,
so yeah,
that's a couple of things.
Those two things
(36:45):
are the ones that
actually help people
bring into Bitcoin.
Talk about Bitcoin
in their native language.
Not just English
because there is
more than enough
English podcasts
and English Bitcoin study materials.
So if you can translate things,
if you can talk to them in that language,
that helps a lot.
That makes people feel connected to it.
(37:07):
And if you can bring them through Noster,
then they realize what private keys can be.
And yeah, that becomes a really nice thing.
So Basanthar, that was interesting.
You raised a few good points there,
which is speak to people in their native language.
And you meant that literally, right?
I think what a lot of folks might not understand about India is there are several languages,
(37:32):
almost 30 official languages, and then thousands of dialects and variations on those languages.
So when you said speak to them in their language, you didn't mean that as a metaphor.
You meant that literally find out what their local language is, if you could speak it, explain in that language.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
The other interesting thing you said is Noster is the Trojan horse to get people into Bitcoin.
(37:59):
At least you found that in your experience.
So yet another example of the purple pill helping the orange pill go down.
And then with your unfuck the internet meetup, I think that's an interesting angle as well,
where you bring in people who are focused on privacy
(38:21):
and those types of values, not necessarily Bitcoin,
but you still have the sly roundabout way
with the Bitcoin stickers and so on, right?
You don't mention Bitcoin, but it's all Bitcoin adjacent.
But Basanth, let's talk about NOSTA in Bitcoin.
Sorry, let's talk about NOSTA in India
(38:42):
for a second here.
What is the adoption rate?
Are we seeing a lot of people on NOSTA?
Because it seems like people tend to use WhatsApp a lot in India.
They use Twitter. They use Facebook.
What has that NOSTA adoption curve looked like?
(39:07):
Okay, so interesting thing is
one of the reasons I came to the Bitcoin conference,
the one at Goa in 2022, I guess, right?
The one that I was talking about.
So one of the reasons I came there was because Raj,
the co-founder of Vidshala was going to be there.
And it was before Vidshala was a thing, right?
(39:27):
And he had written about some,
I don't remember exactly what he wrote,
but it was about Nostrad and how it can be used in Bitcoin or something.
and he was the only other person that I saw
reputed person in the Bitcoin ecosystem
from India who was taking any interest in Nostra
so that was one of the reasons I went there
(39:50):
to meet Raj because he was into Nostra
and yeah so at the same time
I think we had another guy who was working on Nostra
from India so it was very
like I don't think anyone even heard about it
but now we have probably 6 or 7 of us
who are somewhat contributing to Noster in one way or another.
(40:10):
But apart from that, leaving the developer side aside,
I don't think people use Noster at all.
I don't know of any Bitcoiner in India who uses Noster very much.
So it's not popular at all in India.
And probably we'll have to take some other direction
(40:32):
where we move communities to Noster
once clients like Whitener
becomes more usable or becomes
production ready at least. Because
even the Bitcoin community
that we
have, we have had multiple
groups pop up, right?
On WhatsApp, on Discord, on Telegram.
And many of those groups are
slowly moving to signal now.
(40:54):
So there are a lot of signal groups
for P2P trades, for normal
conversation, Bitcoin and technical
side, Bitcoin and Austrian economics.
so we have a lot of groups popping up
and most of these communities
smaller communities are on
Signal and the public
convo is happening on Twitter still
so if we can get something like
white noise working properly
(41:15):
as an alternative to Signal
we'll probably have a lot more reduction of
Nostrad in India, otherwise most people
don't have any use for it
because most of the conversation is still happening
on Twitter, even I
don't think I post much on Nostrad as well
I just read from there
so yeah
there might be people using pseudonyms and stuff
(41:35):
but I have not met anyone
any significant amount of people who use Noster
daily in India
I'd like to say one thing
so
the people I have met
they do use Noster not on a
regular basis as Basanta said
that daily no
but in the bitcoin community
(41:57):
a lot of people are there
on Noster who are
using it for stuff let's say but it's not it's not as bad as it seems to be the developers are
there there is one more uh there is a force community in india and they have a privacy
(42:18):
part or a group and they're also back in 2023 i heard someone in kerala give a talk on nostr
privacy and Noster.
So it's not exactly niche
but
the Noster developers
(42:39):
who are also Bitcoiners is very less.
There might be developers who are into
Noster but we have not found them yet.
How does that
work though, Paper?
Which is, you know, people come in
I know we talked about this
a little earlier but
you know, people might not be
Bitcoiners but they get attracted to
(42:59):
Noster.
and then they become big as a result of just seeing the zaps and everything else.
But what exactly is it about Nostra that would attract a developer
versus, let's say, Web3, which seems to be the case in India?
(43:22):
I guess the breaking point is the centralization aspect on it.
every time a person comes in and asks who built this or how do i work on this etc they're led to
open source community and it's like is this it like this is how it happens and that is the most
(43:47):
important breaking point that how free you are to build on this and there is no permission needed
for you to go ask anyone about anything
except obviously understanding the protocol and stuff.
But yeah, and go ahead, go ahead.
I'd actually like to hear Prasantra's answer on this
(44:07):
how exactly does it differ on Web3 and Noster
because he has had more conversations with developers than I have.
Yeah, you'll have to mute yourself properly.
So I think the one thing about crypto is that most people who work on it realize it is not scalable.
(44:29):
Especially Web3. I will not say crypto. Especially Web3.
Because in crypto you might do some token swap, some kind of like DAB, decentralized exchange thing.
And that probably makes sense to you in some way.
But then you try to do some kind of social network or some kind of communication network on top of crypto stuff.
(44:52):
and you immediately realize that this Web3 stuff,
most of these things don't really work.
And you become aware of BitTorrent,
of HyperCore, Furner, that protocol,
and all those stuff that already exist,
peer-to-peer stuff.
And you probably even heard about Nostrad
in the crypto community, I'm not sure.
(45:12):
But you become aware that there are ways
of doing decentralized communication,
decentralized social media and stuff
without involving blockchains.
so that stays in the back of your mind
and then you see Noster
and see the simplicity of it
especially because a lot of protocols
they tend to overcomplicate things
for god knows what reason
(45:34):
but yeah Noster is really really simple to understand
for web developers at least
so they read it and immediately they realize that
ok this is something that already works
it has the backing of the bitcoin community
and if you can show them zaps
then it blows their minds
that ok this is something that
actually works with Bitcoin
in real life, right? You actually
make payments, you actually get
(45:55):
stuff, you can
do marketplaces, you can
do videos to me, you can do all sorts of things and it's
already working, people are already using it
and that's
something that cannot be saved for
all the other crypto
web 3 stuff, right? So Nostrad
is in production already and
all they have is some kind of
(46:16):
hope that in the future these things will
be useful. So that's really
the turning point they see that
this thing is not just a concept
it actually works and yeah they get involved
most of the time or they
start questioning some coming up
with some excuses like well web
sockets don't scale or some random
stuff or what about quantum computers
(46:36):
and yeah that
when that happens then that person is like
completely lost but otherwise yeah
you can still get them into Nostrad and Bitcoin
if they are from the Web3 community
Great
I'd love to hear that.
Go ahead, people.
The sword shared their secrets you hold dear.
(46:59):
Ciao, tesoro.
You have reached the end of the free tasting menu.
21 delicious minutes, gone in a flash like a Vespa on the Via Veneto.
But the real feast?
Mmm, it's still simmering, thick with secrets from our wonderful guests that could set the
(47:20):
whole piazza gossiping. Why stop now, Bello? Slip past the velvet rope, become a Plep Chain Radio
layer 2 patron, and I'll pour you the rest of the episode hot, uncut, al dente. One tiny click,
a few shiny sats, and the door swings open. Go to the Fountain app, find Plep Chain Radio,
(47:44):
and click on subscribe.
You will not regret it, I promise you.
No subscription?
Ce peccato.
You'll be wandering the Roman night,
wondering what you missed,
like a tourist with no lira for gelato.
So, choose passion over penuria.
(48:06):
Hit subscribe and I'll be waiting.
Molto contenta
with the espresso and every last whispered word.
(48:41):
This is never tough, with your subscription, give your means and help bear a ghost rise.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.