PCR118 - The Genesis Door is Open with Brandon Karpeles

In this episode of Plebchain Radio, QW and Avi are joined by Brandon Karpeles, also known as plebiANON via Nostr, to discuss his transition from a corporate job to working full-time in the Bitcoin space, and his role as CEO of Sovreign, a Bitcoin business consulting service.

Sovreign : https://www.sovreign.io/

Avi Burra's Book 24 : https://www.amazon.com/24-Avi-Burra/dp/B0CN9NRNNB/ref=sr11?crid=27RW9P8JQ4YMV&keywords=avi+burra+24&qid=1700327391&sprefix=avi+burra+24%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1

Plebchain Radio Shirt - Black and Yellow -https://lightning.store/product/plebchain-radio-black-t-shirt/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

(00:08):
on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.
Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current
thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,
doers, and plebs.
All right, we are live.

(00:28):
Welcome, gentle plebs, to the lightning-laced airwaves.
Today is Friday, the 27th of June.
This is episode 118 of Plebs Chain Radio,
and it is 6 p.m. on the dot on the east coast of the United States.
At the time of recording, we have a fun show ahead of you today.

(00:51):
Plebianon, a.k.a. Brandon Carpelles,
joins us to tell his story about exiting fiat.
and entering Bitcoin full time.
And just a reminder, folks,
if you are listening to the show on Apple or Spotify,
first of all, thank you for listening.
But I would urge you to hit pause

(01:11):
and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app
where you can earn some sats
and support the value for value revolution
as you listen.
And while you're there,
if you do hit subscribe,
you help support the show
and in turn get early access to this episode
and every other episode, as well as exclusive access to our bonus episodes.

(01:35):
This show is streamed live on zap.stream and any other Noster client
that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Noster.
And for our meme readout today, it is the three-frame Chad and NPC meme.
In the top frame, we have a very disapproving-looking NPC who's telling the Chad.

(02:02):
Who gave you permission to follow your dreams?
And in the second frame, the Chad moves closer to the NPC.
And in the final frame, the Chad whispers in the NPC's ear,
I did.
and you can see the look on the NPC's face.

(02:26):
Collapse to the floor.
And QW, you have been paying attention to Bitcoin and Nostoculture
this past week.
What have you seen?
I think this would be a good time, Avi, to talk about Prague
because, you know, it was something you've experienced.
What, this is your third time?
Third time in a row, that's correct.

(02:46):
Third time.
Is it getting more magical?
or what's, I mean, was there any highs or lows or,
I mean, obviously, you know,
the hanging out with the plebs is always the bottom line,
but anything that strike you?
It was, I keep saying, QW,
that there is no second best Bitcoin conference

(03:09):
and I was certainly proven correct with this visit to Prague.
That said, I would rank the previous two editions
of Prague a little higher than this one,
primarily because those two had a very, very strong,
almost dominant cypherpunk vibe.

(03:30):
This edition did have that, for sure,
but there was, let's just say, a few more suit coiners
and the NGU crowd who showed up.
The paper pump, the paper punks.
I love that
the paper punks indeed

(03:51):
so that was
but apart from that
just hanging out with folks like our guest
Brandon and several others
got to meet a lot of new folks
got to
reconnect with folks
who I've seen in the past
multiple times
it's always like a family reunion
almost

(04:11):
across the pond like that
You only get to see them when you actually go across the pond, right?
So it's – I can feel that energy.
And that's one of the reasons why I – you know, I know the Bitcoin conference is going back to Vegas again.
And I did one day there.
But I would totally just drive there again as fiat as it became or is becoming just to see people that I otherwise wouldn't.

(04:39):
But probably avoid the conference.
But anyways, I get the appeal.
It's kind of like one of those reunions every year type of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So speaking of pleb events, Nostra Bama.
And we're going to talk about this more next week with our guest.
That's full on grassroots July 14th through the 17th, Mobile, Alabama.

(05:03):
And I'll keep harping on this Lake Satoshi because I think our friend of the show, Rod
Palmer, is going to be there.
a friend of the show Rev Hoddle is going to be there
even like the
Ungovernable Misfit podcast
they keep talking about it too
so I think there's going to be
I think that's going to be a very
interesting event

(05:25):
and I wish I was in
Central Michigan for that
for Lake Satoshi
go ahead
sorry so finish the dates
August 1st through the 3rd
is that
one of those camping conferences or meetups?
We had a show with Rev Hoddle.
We talked about it.
I'm trying to remember.

(05:45):
It's been a while.
Yeah, well, and it's also, you know,
there's a lot of permaculture and trading,
circular economy.
People bring their foods, their crafts, their gifts.
Whatever it is, they actually bring it there
to create a circular economy.
But a lot of education and very grassroots

(06:06):
when you're camping.
And like you said, Avi, you love camping, especially if it's just, you know, that's why you quit your job.
And that's right.
Under a bridge.
Yeah, this is not the shade of a bridge.
It would be the shade of the trees.
But, you know, you might be able to adjust.

(06:29):
And since your memory seems sharper than mine, especially with this show.
I'm interested in it.
You might not be.
Did I, on that show, did I happen to mention that my preference, and this is the only reason why I won't be at Lake Satoshi, is my preference for indoor plumbing?
You actually told me that two shows ago.

(06:51):
And by the way, actually it's three shows ago, Avi, because I did two without you.
One with Sam and one last week.
So, I mean, it's weird even talking to you at this point.
that's right the sam was the bonus episode yeah which yeah an excellent one i should say
i did get you listen to i listened to i would say 80 of that one yeah we were supposed to do 60

(07:17):
minutes and it went on to like 98 minutes uh uh started with eggs you know just cracked the egg
to begin and i think there was a lot of real uh realism there um you know we had some fun but
there's some real topics in there. I just thought it was a good conversation. Of course, when you're
having it in person, it's a little different for me because it's kind of a one-on-one and no one

(07:41):
else is around. So you kind of just get lost in the conversation. Then you look back, you're like,
I don't even really, I can't quite remember everything we talked about. I hope we hit
everything that I wanted to. But it was just an interesting situation. I'm happy and I thank
fountain for the premium for pushing us to go different directions uh because it just challenges

(08:03):
us right yeah certainly so speaking of local friends um you know i'm gonna stand on my soapbox
as i deliver this roast avi nope unintended heather larson the whole reason songs aren't
the whole reason songs aren't shorter has taken up a new job you know that job avi

(08:27):
go ahead she actually she went back to radio so if she isn't detoxing from radio on her podcast
she's actually on the radio giving uh the local radio here in phoenix she's become a crossbreed
of mr drizzle and miss gridlock bringing arizona the excitement of always sunny weather report

(08:49):
and red light running capital traffic report she is the third most accurate weather and traffic
report behind the algorithm of Google and Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if she's just reading from
the apps in the first place. The excitement of weather and traffic is that of a Monday morning
office party. But really, we appreciate you, Heather, and I personally look forward to seeing

(09:12):
you and the other local Nostrichs next July 22nd. We're having another, we're bringing it back.
We're resurrecting Avi Noster PHX as a social mixer.
So I love the fact that she's went back to radio after having a podcast called Radio Detox.
It was kind of full circle.

(09:32):
I think it's fitting.
And, you know, shout out to Heather.
She's doing big things.
She's doing everything with Wrigley, the upendo.
And, you know, it's all for the Alliance right now.
They just announced actually the block parties next Saturday.
So it's back on Pleb Independence Day, July 5th.

(09:53):
So next Saturday, we're going back.
And Avi, I'm sitting between...
Things have changed, Avi.
I have about eight terahash around me right now.
I have a Nano 3S miner and a BitAxe.
So I'm all in, buddy.
So you're saying there's a chance.
There's always a chance.
Generational wealth, man.

(10:14):
And QW, for our sermon today, it's the Genesis door is the exit.
The fiat terminal sometimes feels like Sartre's drawing room in no exit.
A fluorescent purgatory where clocks lie, the air never changes, and the loudspeaker recites eternal delay.

(10:40):
Next train to freedom indeterminate.
In that play, the doors are locked and the characters discover the cruel joke.
There is no exit.
Their prison is of their own making.
Hell is other people, Garson mutters.
But in truth, hell is also the resignation that nothing can change.

(11:06):
Satoshi flipped the script.
The Genesis block blew the hinges of that existential waiting room.
A door swung wide, stamped with an invitation that needed no gatekeeper's signature.
We could have walked out right then, but habit is a heavy sofa, and many kept sitting,

(11:28):
arguing over lanyard colors while the open door let in the breeze of possibility.
Look around.
Some passengers still clutch resumes like boarding passes praying for a CNBC oracle or a bullish Fed to grant absolution They forget the play real lesson When you refuse to choose you already chosen

(11:54):
Indecision is its own sentence. Meanwhile, block height rises, lightning invoices ping like
impatient alerts and Nostra relays glow with chatter braver than the people typing it.
So let's step through the exit that Sartre never offered. Trade quarterly OKRs for private keys,

(12:18):
exit interviews for open source commits, and HR portals for zap storms that shout sat by sat,
I back your weird idea
Yes, the corridor beyond is dim and uncarpeted
Some months, revenue will look like a meme stock on mute

(12:38):
But at least the hallway leads somewhere
And the floor creaks with your own footsteps
Not someone else's marching orders
Worried about uncertainty?
Remember, a fiat paycheck already wagers
your fate on somebody else's spreadsheet.

(12:59):
Bitcoin wages it on math and ingenuity,
far less capricious than the next quarterly memo.
Job security is just a cubicle-shaped talisman.
Trust instead the cryptographic compass
that always points to self-sovereignty.
And if anyone asked who unlocked the door,

(13:22):
grin and point to the mirror.
The permission slip in your pocket is dated January 3rd, 2009.
Countersigned by nobody and everybody all at once.
Management approved.
Management is you.
Broadcast boldly, build relentlessly.

(13:43):
The time chain is live, the relay is listening,
and the only thing still waiting is that unused exit you've been pretending isn't there.
And that, QW, is a good segue into our guest segment.
Brandon Carpelles, welcome to Plep Chain Radio.

(14:04):
Thanks, guys, for having me.
I'm not sure we really need to talk about anything anymore.
That was an incredibly eloquent summary of everything I was planning on talking about here.
Anything you want to plug before we're done here?
Just get right into the plugs.

(14:25):
Yeah, seriously. I think that's a wrap.
I do have one. I do have a burning question. I'm sure Avi does after.
But I read, so I saw your Anon name in Anoster, and I read it as Plebeianon.
So Plebeianon, not Plebeianon, because I think it's coming from the Plebeian. Is that correct?

(14:51):
Exactly.
It was a portmanteau of plebeian and anonymous,
and now I'm no longer anonymous, still a pleb.
So I got half the portmanteau is still working for me.
It's like the paper punks were talking about Avi.
That's right, yeah.

(15:12):
Exactly.
I'm cypherpunk until it comes due, my money.
Let's go.
Still a plebe.
Still a plebe.
Just no longer A9.
Excellent.
Well, a second burning question for you on that note, Brandon.
Your old fiat job comes back to you with an offer for you to return.

(15:35):
10x your original salary.
What do you do?
Nah, man.
I'm not doing it.
I get where you're going with this.
Maybe there's some number.
but you know I don't know actually um you know the more that I think about it I
had a very comfortable position the title of my speech in Prague was why I left my cushy

(16:02):
corporate job to go work in Bitcoin and I if I kind of wanted that life that quote-unquote
security, whatever you want to call it, I would have stayed. But I left because I, all of those
things, man, that was so beautiful, everything about the prison that you're in when you're there.

(16:26):
You have no freedom. You have no autonomy. You are beholden to management. And there was a situation
when I was still working, the straw that broke the camel's back, where I effectively had my entire
career, almost two decades, basically just shoved into the trash bin and said, you're not capable to

(16:46):
do this. And what was I going to say? Those people were higher up in the organization than me, and
there wasn't anything I could do about it. And that's just the way it was going to be. And I had
been looking a long time to exit and get out. But that was just, I mean, you talk about centralized

(17:07):
control systems that rely on one or a handful of individuals, the ultimate proof of state
network. I'm not sure I could go back to that for a number. And I walked away from a very nice salary,
lots of benefits. And I was capable of doing my job with not maximum effort. I put maximum effort

(17:34):
in sometimes when it required it. And as I joined Sovereign and became the CEO, I'm working 10 times
harder doing this. And I prefer to do this. I am less stressed. I feel like I'm in control. This is
the exit door I wanted to walk through. And living it, I don't know. I don't think I could go back.

(17:59):
I'm not sure. I mean, it would take it would take something really, really dire.
And even then, I'm not I'm not sure I could go back, you know, knowing everything I know now and have seen going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
And Avi, I know you just left your job. I would love to turn that question back on you and ask you the same thing.

(18:21):
Well, not at this moment, Brandon. There's no there is no number that'll pull me back.
He's just wondering what it looks like.
Is the grass greener for him because he's got about a week left?
The grass is so green.
Looking for some hope.

(18:41):
Some affirmation, right?
Oh, yeah.
Stories like these that you almost need to hear to kind of jump that, make that jump, because it's such a trust fall.
You're really trusting in your own ability.
And we end up kind of turning into hamsters instead of what we originally were as growing up in human nature.

(19:06):
I always wanted to be something.
And then you just end up in a revolving door and was doing the tasks that you don't believe in, I suppose.
Sorry, Avi.
Just a quick point there, Brandon, to what QW just said.

(19:27):
What was remarkable for me about Prague, I mean, there were several remarkable things,
but specifically about this trip was the number of people I talked to, yourself included,
who gave me that, I mean, you could call it confirmation bias or affirmation or whatever it is,
the number of people who said, yep, I did it, it was the best decision I ever made.
at least 10 people, which I was listening to everyone saying, you know, I just did this. And

(19:55):
it's almost as if by magic, the universe is conspiring to tell me it's going to be okay.
It's 100% true. You know, I went to college back to what QW was saying. I went to college,
one of my majors was entrepreneurship. And then I spent 20 years in corporate America,

(20:15):
I wasn't doing anything entrepreneurial at all. And it's exactly like your, I don't know if I
would call it a sonnet, a piece, a short story at the beginning, whatever you would call it,
said was that you create the cage, you make your own cage. And there was no one keeping me there,

(20:38):
There was nothing keeping me there.
It's all trade-offs in your life.
And at the end of the day, you have to decide which trade-offs are more important and which matter more to you.
And it was just so abundantly clear that I had been making the wrong trade-off for so long.

(20:59):
And there's never going to be a good time to get off the hamster wheel.
That's why it's a hamster wheel.
You have to keep going on it.
And it's, I need the next paycheck.
I need the next bonus.
I need the next stock offering.
I need the next promotion.
I need the next move in the company, whatever it is.
And that's forever ongoing.

(21:20):
That will never end.
And there's never a good time.
When a hamster steps off the wheel, he does a somersault.
And that's what's going to happen.
And you just have to be willing to do that.
so Brandon to the extent that you're comfortable talking about this what were you doing in your
fiat job and then walk us through the last let's say decisive few months that led you to that

(21:49):
momentous decision so I basically since 2008 I got pulled into the world of distressed assets I got
asked to come help out during the great financial crisis when everything was on fire.
Properties were being foreclosed upon.
Businesses were being shut down.

(22:10):
There was so much distressed credit out there that it was overwhelming for any financial
institution to be able to handle.
And across the commercial lending space, banks were putting together teams.
They had various names, managed assets, special assets, workout.

(22:31):
And it was all the same thing.
Handle the problems, clean up the garbage, and make them go away.
And we were in the thick of it, the real heart of the fire, for probably three to four years.
And then it kind of tapered off.
We went into ZERP, and things settled back down.

(22:53):
And then the bubble was blowing up for the next decade or so.
And I remained in that world because I liked it.
I found it more challenging.
I actually enjoyed the problem-solving nature of it, actually being able to work with businesses,
work with owners on coming up with a plan to get out of a bad situation.

(23:16):
And I actually did like that part of my job and I did find value in it and I did feel like I was helping business owners when those type of situations arose And there was some fulfillment in that And slowly the job kind of just morphed into more of

(23:38):
an administrative, bureaucratic position, just checking boxes, moving papers around,
and much less in the trenches, much less dealing with actual businesses.
But I was still able to watch these businesses slowly erode away, have to take on more and more debt.

(24:02):
And they didn't really understand what was going on.
They didn't understand that, OK, they were, quote unquote, profitable, but their money was being debased.
And it was leading to them having to take on ever more debt because they couldn't keep up with inflation.
And 2020 came around and all the lockdown stuff and the lunacy that was all of that.

(24:26):
I really went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole hard.
I had owned some Bitcoin and held some Bitcoin years prior to that and understood sort of the value proposition,
but not really fully orange-pilled and down the rabbit hole.
And once I did that, I kind of started looking for the exits,

(24:47):
that, okay, I have to go do something else here.
I am in the fiat system.
I am honestly part of the money creation apparatus.
And ironically, my position in the bank, I was part of the money destruction apparatus
because when you would have charge-offs or losses,
you were actually taking dollars out of the system.

(25:08):
But that's just a technical aside. And it just got to the point where I had less and less autonomy. I had less autonomy at 40 than I did at 30. And it was just becoming so overbearing, so oppressive. I couldn't get anything done. I wanted to.

(25:30):
It was a centralized control system, like I mentioned earlier, and it got to a point where I was effectively taken off a deal that I was 100% correct about because senior management effectively didn't want to deal with it, address the problems.
And they said, no, we'd rather sweep this under the rug and you keep quiet.

(25:53):
And it was at that point that I made the decision that I'm out of here.
And thank God for my wife, who has been incredibly supportive through all of this and understood 100% of what I was going through, is a Bitcoiner herself, which always helps.
and definitely could not have done it

(26:15):
if there was a familial situation
where I was fighting the support on that front.
Avi, have you told your wife yet?
Not yet. Not yet.
I have.
Thank God she doesn't listen to the show, you know?

(26:35):
Yeah.
Is she a big supporter of you too, Avi?
doing this.
No, she was incredibly
supportive.
And she is a Bitcoiner, too.
She's a very supportive. I can see.
It's her nature to be
supportive, I would assume,
meeting her.
You know...

(26:55):
Go ahead, Brandon. I was just going to
say, it's a reframing
of everything all at once. It's like, what's
important?
Family, and
to have the support of your family.
I mean, that means more than any stupid job or anything else.
And to just reframe everything in your life as to getting off the hamster wheel as opposed to being able to spend time with your family, pay attention to your family, and just have a sense of autonomy and freedom that you can do stuff with your family if and when you want.

(27:33):
and you're not completely beholden to someone else's schedule.
I just, you know, even you go back 120, 130 years,
people never lived like this.
They didn't go to some nine to five job that, let's be honest,
you got to be up at six because you got to leave the house at seven,
then you get in at eight, and then you maybe leave the office at six,

(27:55):
and then it takes you 45 minutes to an hour to get home,
and then you make dinner and there's no time for anything.
the world never worked like that before and we're in this weird blip of time where we got stuck in
these you know office jobs corporate jobs whatever you want to call them and we effectively just

(28:15):
are having all of our time taken away to basically pay the next bill and it's it's lunacy when
you step back and realize that that's what's going on
yeah absolutely Brandon you know and just going back to the family thing I think in my case the
thing that was that was most striking for me when I shared this with my wife my son who's 14

(28:40):
my wife was of course supportive as I said and then my son basically over the next few days
looked at me and said wow happy dad is back and I was like what did I become right you know when
I'd heard him say that. And did you go through that, Brandon, where it was taking so much out

(29:01):
of you that it just made you a worse person? Talk about from the mouth of babes. Wow. Yes,
100%. I was miserable. I would complain about everything. Constantly was bringing home complaints
about the organization, things that were going on. And just my general worldview, I was so much

(29:23):
more agitated about whatever was going on and whatever crazy woke insanity was going on. I was
agitated about that. Whatever fiscal irresponsibility was going on, it just all kind of agitated me.
And as I was able to step out and step into the world of Bitcoin full time and have that be what

(29:50):
I'm putting my time and energy into, I immediately felt a relief of all of this pressure, anxiety
being lifted off of me, even though in theory I should be in a much more angst-inducing
position, but I'm not. And it was affecting me as a husband. My son hadn't been born yet at the time,

(30:14):
but absolutely I was a worse husband
I was a worse friend
I was a worse family member
there's no doubt about it
and what about
this is another thing I found striking
is
well I'll ask you how
this impacts you but
when you open your eyes in the morning

(30:35):
how does that feel now
versus how that felt
six months ago
before you quit your job
it's incredible
It's so liberating. I wake up happy that I'm going to go work on what I'm going to do. I don't immediately feel stressed. I'll tell you, just having the notifications of my emails no longer on my phone, that alone has reduced my stress like 800%.

(31:05):
and knowing that I'm not going to have to wake up at 6.05,
look at my phone, check all the emails, check my calendar,
see what's on it for the day.
Okay, now I've got to do this.
Now I'm rushing out of the house,
and I wake up invigorated and ready to get after the day

(31:27):
as opposed to dreading it.
Yeah, and that's exactly how it's been.
I still have a week left,
but you know ever since i told them i've been uh i wake up every morning with so much to look
forward to and i'd forgotten what that feels like man me too i one was i mean when was the last time
maybe like college i felt that way or something it's been so long yeah

(31:52):
qw does what he loves so he doesn't know what we're talking about i you know i have a family
business of 68 years. Uh, I've, you know, there's, there's certain things where you are in that
hamster wheel, but legacy and, uh, family business and tradition, uh, sometimes it's rewarding enough

(32:16):
to, uh, to, to do the day to day where, you know, it's, it's, it's, I don't know. I mean, I, it's,
it's, it follows a part of my heart, I suppose, but not my full heart. Well, that's another thing
I was trying, actually, I was really struggling when I was writing my speech for Prague to, do I just want this focused on why I went into Bitcoin or why I went and did something that was rewarding?

(32:42):
Because it doesn't have to be in Bitcoin.
This isn't some, if you don't leave whatever job you're doing and come work in Bitcoin, you know, you're a sucker or whatever.
That's not the message at all.
It's just, I was doing a job that was not rewarding.
It was not fulfilling.
And I was getting nothing out of it.
And there are so many jobs out there that have nothing to do with Bitcoin that are incredibly rewarding and people enjoy doing.

(33:09):
And the overall message is get to whatever that is for yourself.
It doesn't have to be Bitcoin.
For me, it happened to be Bitcoin.
But there is absolutely nothing wrong with just a normal job that's not in Bitcoin that you find fulfillment and reward with.
yeah and i can always just make my family business uh try a bitcoin treasury company

(33:31):
yeah if you uh if you need some advice on levering up uh 65 times i'm here to help
everybody's a bitcoin company now you know that's all it comes down just just just be a treasury
company you're good it's crazy we we've had people reaching out to us and and said hey can
you help make me a Bitcoin treasury company? And I'll just respond, yeah, you just take your

(33:55):
profits and store them in Bitcoin. What did I see today? Where is that? Gemini tokenized stocks
have arrived. Our customers in the EU can now buy tokenized micro strategy on Gemini. So you
papering over paper bitcoin companies just just what the eu needs

(34:16):
oh yeah there is a rug there is a rug coming here folks it's just a matter of when well 100
the only question is how big is the rug that's it it's it's it's some it's a weird economy right
now i'll put it that way where i i don't know like 2008 crash you saw that one kind of coming

(34:40):
people were getting i spoke with sam he got a he got a house in that time and he didn't have
anything to qualify for it you saw kind of how that was happening but with covid the supply
strain as a company all the inventory was not even there but 40 of the usd was printed in a year
it just such a weird cycle um and you everyone thinks the crash is coming but it like we about to start printing more I mean it just doesn make any sense I don know I just ranting at this point but middle class is taking a bath

(35:16):
I mean, that was kind of the first awakening I had was 08, 09, actually working for a financial
company, and we were forced to take TARP, and we didn't need it.
We were actually a responsible institution, as much as any fractional reserve institution
can be responsible.
Um, and I just remember asking, well, where did that money come from?

(35:41):
And basically getting the answer that it was, well, the Federal Reserve, what do you mean?
Where did it come from?
The Federal Reserve, where did they get it?
Like, we didn't, we didn't have this one.
Where did they get it?
I mean, this isn't the savings of the nation.
Like, we don't have this money.
And that was an eye-opening experience for me that, wow, this whole system is completely ridiculous and is just playing cards and popsicle sticks.

(36:11):
Yeah. Rand Paul had a tweet yesterday.
Congress spends $2 trillion more than its revenues.
The Fed then buys this debt.
Congress then pays the Fed interest.
The Fed then pays interest to big banks to keep cash reserves.
this is how government makes the rich richer and what's so messed up is they actually have to do

(36:31):
that if they don't do that the system will collapse and that's the the crazy thing about
all these fiat economists and everything they're actually correct with their everything they say
is actually right but it's within the fiat system that they are right and so yes your your
assessment and analysis of the machinations of the fiat system are accurate. It's just the whole

(37:00):
system is a total scam. So you're exactly right. You've correctly identified how the scam functions.
You just don't realize that it's a scam. And deflation is like the arch nemesis of this
current system. Yeah, and it's true. If things got cheaper for me at the grocery store,
everything would crumble.

(37:21):
Yeah, the whole thing would go.
If people stopped buying worthless crap from China,
the whole thing falls apart.
Well, deflation is the enemy, right?
Because deflation makes the monetary weight
of any pile of money a lot more.
So you have this whole pile of debt sitting there.

(37:41):
If suddenly deflation happens,
the debt gets a lot heavier.
So they cannot have deflation.
And you have to run trade deficits because you're the world reserve currency.
And so it's just ever impossible to reel anything back in.
And I think Elon figured that one out pretty quickly.

(38:02):
Yeah, that was interesting.
That was fun.
Oh, the whole system is completely borked.
All right.
Like, wait, I cut all this spending out, and then you just made this package to spend even more?
It's like, okay.
Because we have to.
Because we have to, yeah.

(38:22):
It's a sick cycle.
And it's tough as a family, you know, small business.
We've seen it cycle after cycle.
And it's the goods that we sell, you know, they're getting twice as much as they were 10 years ago,
and they're twice as shitty, right?

(38:43):
I mean, that's another huge part of why I left to go do what I did
was I was watching these businesses have their input costs go through the roof.
And when you're running a company, most of these people,
you get your quarterly reports and everything 45 days kind of after the quarter ends.

(39:07):
And so everything's backwards looking.
You don't realize you're losing tons of money until you actually see it on paper.
And so many of these companies would look at their numbers and just go, oh, my gosh, I'm losing all this money.
How is this even possible?
And it's like you had no idea how much your input cost increased and you just weren't able to pass it along to the customer fast enough.

(39:33):
Additionally, a lot of times you price your customers out of the market.
that they're no longer willing to buy at this new price point.
And these business owners had no idea what was going on.
They couldn't figure it out.
They didn't understand that there is a solution to this problem.
And that was a huge part of why I wanted to come work at Sovereign

(39:55):
and help businesses figure this out.
So talk a little bit about Sovereign then, the company that you started.
So actually, let's run back the clock.
You quit in December, correct?
Well, just going back a step.

(40:16):
So technically, I did not start this company.
Our founder, Daniel Frank, who's in Denmark, founded this, and a bunch of people put in a lot of work.
I came on board as a consultant independent contractor in November
and got approval from my fiat overlords to do a whole five hours a week of consultation

(40:39):
should it arise. And then at the end of 24, beginning of 25, I started talking with our
founder, Daniel, about taking on a bigger role in the company. He really just had too much on his
plate. He needed basically someone to help him run the company and take a lot of the day-to-day

(40:59):
stuff, the operations, the financials, all that off his plate. And it was at that point, the
situation I described earlier was happening. And I had to make a choice that if I wanted to go do
this, I couldn't have one foot in fiat land and one foot in this new role I had to fully commit.

(41:20):
And I made that decision in January. However, I told my company in March of this year,
and then officially joined Sovereign as the CEO, I believe it was March 15th was my first official day.
So that was the timeline.

(41:43):
Got it. So tell us a little bit about Sovereign.
What is the company setting out to do?
So our job is pretty simple.
It's an old school.
It's nothing fancy.
It's just an old school business consultation services company.
And we charge an hourly rate and discount it if you would like to have packages or different levels of service or on-call availability or higher touch, whatever it is.

(42:14):
But we're basically helping educate companies about Bitcoin if they need it.
If they're already educated, then we'll just move to step two, which is helping onboard them, custody, meet them where they're at with what they're asking for, and then ultimately integrate it into their business.
So accepting payments, treasury status, or I don't even like saying treasury status anymore, just balance sheet cash for Bitcoin, long-term planning with Bitcoin as capital for the business.

(42:50):
And we do have a lot of people like myself whose old day job was business consulting operations, that sort of thing.
And to the extent the company would ask for that, we would happily step in as well and come up with sort of an operational financial plan incorporating Bitcoin as well.
But that's not really the meat of what we do is educating, onboarding, and then integrating Bitcoin and payments into the company.

(43:19):
So walk us through, I would say, a hypothetical example.
I guess you don't want to dox your clients, right?
But just pick a typical company in a sector who would be interested in Sovereign's consulting services,
and then walk us through what that process from step one through whatever the last step is, what that looks like.

(43:41):
So we have found that most of our customers are sort of warm leads, if you will.
they're coming through referrals. And we do have a referral program on our website. If anyone
listening to this, any of the plebs want to go on our website and you have a business owner that
has talked to you about Bitcoin, but you just maybe don't feel comfortable sitting down with

(44:05):
them talking about it, or it's just overwhelming for you. And there's a lot of people that going
through the process, fully orange pilling, getting a proper cold storage set up, especially at a
company where you're going to have sometimes multiple executives signing. You might have
different divisions that will need to sign things. And that could just be overwhelming and daunting.

(44:29):
And we provide the opportunity for you to just sort of pass that customer on to us. And we do
pay a referral fee in those instances. And the customer would kind of come in, okay,
excuse me, I've heard about Bitcoin. I know about Bitcoin. I'm ready to get going. And we would step

(44:50):
in and we would say, okay, here's our pricing. It's nothing fancy, just a standard hourly rate.
And we'll come in and at the end of half a day, a full day, two days, depending on how much you
want, here's what we'll get done for you. We'll have you set up on an exchange. We'll have you
set up, able to sell, send to your own wallets. And we'll have you with the ability to accept

(45:15):
payments in Bitcoin and hold it on your balance sheet. And that's the offering we will have.
And then say we're available for any follow-up, any services after that. And to the extent you
want to talk about strategy or long-term planning when it comes to Bitcoin in your business,

(45:36):
we're there for that as well. So that's kind of the three-step process, getting in there,
giving them a proposal on what we can get done in a day or two, getting them set up,
and then being there for them on the back end afterwards.
what would uh an example company be or what sect would it be like a restaurant or maybe

(45:59):
uh you know a parts manufacturer like yeah just what does a sample company look like
yes so honestly it's anyone that's in business it doesn't have to be a bitcoin company um there are
some bitcoin companies that probably could use our services but for the most part yeah we're talking
to, you know, real estate companies, dental practices, parts manufacturers, and it's just

(46:27):
people running normal businesses that want to have a better unit of account. And that's what
we're there to do. Additionally, things like churches, HOAs, nonprofits, these organizations
that sit on a lot of cash and don't really have a good way to protect themselves against the

(46:48):
debasement that comes from holding dollars.
A lot of my wife used to work in the nonprofit space and I sit on the board of a nonprofit and
a lot of these organizations just hold a ton of cash and it's like, oh, well, we have this
earmarked for this project in 2029. It's like, well, 2029 is going to roll around and you have

(47:11):
no idea what percentage of that project is going to be able to be funded with those dollars because
you have no idea what the monetary policy is going to be. And that is another source of
business for organizations and companies that we're trying to help as well.

(47:32):
So let's say I'm a restaurant, Brandon, and I come up to you and say, hey, I've heard about
this Bitcoin thing. I heard I can set it up for my payments. I need to figure out the whole tax
It's an accounting situation because capital gains, blah, blah, blah.
Can you help me?
So how would you help a restaurant who's not necessarily run by Bitcoiners

(47:55):
but who are interested in getting a point of sale set up
and then handling the taxes and accounting?
Well, first of all, I'd ask you if you're using any seed oils,
and then we'd talk about that.
Well played.
In all seriousness, we would come in and we would talk to them. Preferably, we would like to have them in a self-custody setup, a BTC pay server, running their own node, able to accept Lightning payments over that. I don't know if, Avi, I know you're in New York. I'm sure you've been to PubKey.

(48:31):
I mean, that's ultimately the setup we would ideally have for a bar restaurant is basically what PubKey has going on there.
Now, if they're unwilling to do that, if they're unwilling, you know, we would come in, set it all up for them.
They wouldn't have to do anything. Obviously, there would be some training of the staff that would have to go on.
But if that's not in the cards, then we would look to something like a ZapRite or a Flash where you could just generate a quick invoice.

(49:00):
It's not perfect, but we could get them set up on something like that all the way down to just something.
Hey, we're going to get, you know, one to two people paying in Bitcoin per day.
It's not that big of a deal.
We'll just get them set up on their own lightning wallet and, you know, on a mobile device or something like that.
And then show them how to sweep it into cold storage, you know, some number that they're comfortable with.

(49:25):
right and i guess the easy scenario there is if they're not selling their bitcoin right if they
because it's just a fraction of one percent of their sales they just move it to cold storage
either at the end of the day end of the week whatever it might be uh but i've i'm asking
because this is something i'm i'm curious about if if especially in the u.s if you're going to go

(49:47):
around orange pilling restaurants and getting them to accept bitcoin the question they're almost
definitely going to ask is, yeah, but I got to pay my staff in cash. So I need to convert this
into cash somehow. And I'm wondering if there is some kind of accounting, automated accounting
system in place that you can plug into, into the point of sale that allows them to keep track of,

(50:10):
you know, well, you know, you can sell it, you can end up selling Bitcoin at a gain or a loss,
and they might end up canceling each other out. But someone has to keep track of that, right?
Sure. We have a good friend of the company, Jordan Guess, who actually just joined Satoshi Picholi as a tax person there. He's working on some software. It's called Bitment, and it does exactly that. It will do all your accounting for you. You can plug in your QuickBooks. You can plug in whatever, and as long as you have a log of those transactions, it'll quickly figure all of that out for you.

(50:44):
Additionally, we can, as much as it pains me to say it, but we could do a situation where we could have some portion of it converted to fiat right at point of sale for only the bills that need to be paid.
You know, we would advise that, OK, understood, you need to pay your electric bill.

(51:05):
You need to pay your staff.
And in reality, it's probably going to be, unfortunately, I wish this weren't the case,
unless it's something like a pub key where tons of Bitcoiners go and patronize the place.
The Bitcoin probably should be able to be held without having to be converted to fiat.

(51:27):
It's probably going to be such a small percent of your receipts that you shouldn't need that
to pay bills.
But if there is a case where you do need some portion of the Bitcoin payments coming in as a restaurant to be converted to cash, then I would personally advise that you just do it at the point of receipt so you don't have to worry about any of the tax implications anyways.

(51:55):
What happens in that scenario?
Is it just zero capital gains because you're buying and it's essentially buying and selling at the exact same price?
Exactly right. That's exactly right. So that would be the tax advice. Obviously, as I said, from a financial prudence advice standpoint, I would hope to convince them to just hold on to it and keep it on the balance sheet and use it for something down the road.

(52:23):
hey man gradually then suddenly i'll take it if they accept bitcoin to start with and and if they
convert it to fiat that's okay they'll figure it out soon enough yeah i think steak and shake is uh
taking saving their bitcoin yeah i don't know i i i've heard uh conflicting reports on that i don't
know if you guys know but i i i thought they were converting it all to fiat but then i heard maybe

(52:48):
they were keeping some of it well you got to get on the treasury game you know agreed
I mean, how can you not be a Bitcoin treasury company?
That's just a sucker's move right now.
I think MetaPlanet owns one hotel.
Yeah.
Maybe.
I could be wrong.
That's that account, Pleditor.

(53:09):
I rarely go on Twitter when I go on that.
I check out that Pleditor guy because he's like the bearish guy ever,
and it's kind of comical to me.
Just always calling things out.
Yeah.
Yeah, he's right sometimes.
Yeah, well, hey, every broken clock's right twice a day or whatever.

(53:30):
But Avi, back to your point, or to your question, rather,
there are software implementations available to track all that stuff,
to streamline it and make it simple.
So we, again, gets back to, I hate to say this answer
because it was like my job as well.

(53:50):
It really depends on the customer. It depends on the situation. Like that is also part of the value we add to a business is that we'll come in, we'll assess your company, what your needs are, meet you where you're at and tailor a package and set of parameters that make sense for you and your company. And we like to think that's part of part of the value we provide to the transaction as well.

(54:16):
yeah you know one of the things one of my goals is to try and you know so brandon now that i'm a
free man i'm like there's like a hundred different things i want to do in bitcoin right right it i
was the same way i was like now i now i have 10 times the amount of things i need to get done
right so one of the things i want to do is fill up btc map on um uh in new york and and then we

(54:40):
it spread out. But some of the questions I'm grappling with is, well, first of all, lightning,
right, which is just with the whole channels and everything, is a huge headache, inbound
liquidity and all that stuff. Now, the new Breeze SDK has been a game changer because
now you can use liquid and now suddenly this Misty Breeze thing that they have. So that

(55:04):
that inbound liquidity thing is gone.
So now it's just a question of reaching out to restaurants,
maybe having some kind of white glove service
like the Geek Squad that goes restaurant to restaurant,
orange builds them, gets them set up,
hooks up the stack stuff, and they're good to go
so they can accept Bitcoin and anything else.

(55:26):
I mean, that's basically what we're doing.
I mean, we're doing that for restaurants,
for dental practices, medical practices,
nonprofits i mean that's exactly what we're doing going in saying hey we're going to try to orange
pill you then we're going to get you set up and then we're going to show you how all this works
how receptive do you think that'll be avi in new york uh and versus let's say chicago too i mean to

(55:53):
me both of those places are kind of uh hubs of the usd there are there are people man uh you'd be
surprised. I know New York City
is trying to elect a communist right now,
but there are people there
who'd be open to
it, if presented correctly.

(56:13):
Well, and that's the other thing
too. Like, I'll
go into my barber,
and I got
them accepting Bitcoin.
Or I'll go to a
place, a farmer's market,
and there's a few places
there that a bunch of us from
Chicago BitDevs have gotten
to start accepting Bitcoin.

(56:34):
And so it doesn't necessarily, we're probably not going to go in and orange pill my former
employer that works across from the Federal Reserve but you can find business just business owners understand what going on They get it So I would say that the area where you going to have more receptive

(56:57):
people. People that are more prone to cash transactions because it's essentially kind of
instant settlement with cash. Yeah. And just more entrepreneurial. Electronic cash. Yeah. That
understand what's going on here and see firsthand.
They don't have walled gardens, giant moats, access to public markets, preferential treatment.

(57:21):
They're the ones that are having to grind away in the trenches to make their company work.
And they see firsthand what's going on with their money.
So what's next for Sovereign?
just keep growing, filling up that BTC map.
I hope you're tagging these places once you get them on board, Brandon.

(57:44):
Now that you mentioned it, Avi, I'm going to 100% make sure we do that,
and that will get done.
And, yes, that's the plan.
We basically, as of last week, finalized our full sales team of people
to go out to these businesses to do the orange pilling, to get them set up.

(58:05):
and now it's just kind of full steam ahead.
We just get as many at-bats as we can
and try to convert as many businesses
to the best money that's ever existed.
Love it.
So changing tracks here, Brandon,
you doxed yourself recently, right?

(58:26):
You were anonymous for the longest time
and then you doxed yourself.
What was the thinking there?
The thinking there was I had been on NOSTER for quite a while, and I was part of the group that came over with the Dorsey money and had really given a lot of support to Damus, to Will, and LSAT and the team over there and really just appreciated what everyone was doing on NOSTER.

(59:00):
and had built up a, I mean, nothing to, no record-breaking numbers or anything,
but just had built up, you know, more than just, you know, quote-unquote followers,
because on Nostra, you don't even know how many you have anyways,
but just a rapport within the community.

(59:20):
And I wanted to leverage that.
And I also, as CEO of Sovereign, I also aim to run Sovereign with the same ethos of Noster, of decentralized.
We're not going to advise people on how to become Bitcoin treasury companies.

(59:41):
And I wanted the ethos to carry over.
And I wanted the rapport that had been established on Noster between me and everyone else on there to be reflected in the company.
and I was going to be a public persona anyways.
And I basically made the choice that,
hey, when I leave this fiat job

(01:00:02):
and go work as a CEO of what I hope to be,
a large Bitcoin company one day,
that I'm going to be known,
people are going to know who I am.
So let's just rip the Band-Aid off.
Let's go for it.
And I'm hoping that people will look at Sovereign
as a reflection of me and my personality on Nostra.

(01:00:25):
Well, the people that like me,
I'm sure there's plenty of people on Nostra
that think differently of me,
but the ones that I have a good relationship with,
like I want that to carry over to Sovereign
and like, oh, hey, this isn't just some company
that's coming on here to try to grift to everyone
and we're on here just trying to advertise

(01:00:48):
and click on this link and buy this and listen to this and watch that.
Like, that's really not what I wanted.
And I didn't think it would be possible to continue to stay anonymous,
try to start a profile that was my actual name and person
and meld the two things together in the way that I wanted to.

(01:01:10):
you know Avi I follow
I follow him because of his culinary
meat expertise
how much of your followers just wait for that next
steak picture a lot man that easily
the most response I get from anything is the pictures of steak

(01:01:33):
or brisket which I'll be making one on Sunday so
stay tuned followers we'll have some nice how deep in the plebe
ethos, are you? Or plebe ethos for you? I'm pretty hardcore. I mean, I, I believe, really,
and you guys were talking about Rev Hodl at the beginning of the show, and Rev's a friend,

(01:01:56):
and I buy meat and stuff from him every year. And I buy a cow from a guy who accepts Bitcoin,
who's part of the Beef Initiative.
I am currently on Sovereign's podcast,
the Bitcoin Business Podcast.
I'm interviewing tons of people from Noster
who sell their wares for Bitcoin.

(01:02:17):
And I just want to talk to business owners,
entrepreneurs who have made the jump
to what we're trying to educate people about,
business owners about,
and hear their story and tell their story
and hopefully get that out to other business owners
to hear that, hey, there's a lot of people
doing this. There's new avenues of marketing. And I really value what these people are doing.

(01:02:41):
And that's the ethos I want to have transmute from Sovereign to the customers, to the businesses
we're working with. And I value hard work. I value value for value. If you're producing something
good, I want to pay you in good money for it. And I'm appreciative of it. And I would much rather

(01:03:04):
paying more for a higher quality product, something we talk about a lot on the program.
And that's something that Bitcoiners value.
And I would say a huge part of why I'm doing this is to hopefully help bring quality back
to businesses and allow business owners to step off the hamster wheel, just like we did,

(01:03:27):
so that they can focus on their craft, focus on their product.
And that's really what's driving me.
It's not about financial engineering or figuring out fiat arbitrages and not that that shouldn't exist or isn't going to exist or isn't a reality.
But I mean, I would say the sort of plebe ethos of getting your getting some dirt under the fingernails, rolling up your sleeves and creating something that other people value and are willing to pay real money for.

(01:03:57):
that that's the kind of the heart of who I am and what I believe in and what I'm trying to bring to
Sovereign. Have you lathered yourself in Soap Miner's tallow yet? I interviewed Soap Miner
yesterday and I told him that my wife bought like a like a The Road. You ever see that movie

(01:04:22):
with, oh gosh, it's like apocalyptic movies, like the last guy left on earth, Viggo, I think it's
Viggo. She bought like the road level stash of talo soap. And I told him that once we get through
it, I'll be buying from him. He graciously offered to send me a couple bars. And so I will be getting

(01:04:45):
those and and then I will be trying them out for sure man I've uh I'm about six months into lather
I just walk around bubbly uh I even take them on trips like I'll bag it and tag it and uh
throw it in my my luggage because I don't want to deal with uh you know a hotel's uh so yeah I
bring I bring the the soap as well same with I got the you know all natural rosemary infused shampoo

(01:05:11):
stuff, you know, no chemicals in it as well. I bring that up. But the tallow soap, we do use
tallow soap. It's not Soap Miner's tallow soap, and I'm sure it's inferior. I know it's inferior.
But man, I'll tell you what, shaving with that stuff, get a nice straight edge blade and some
tallow soap on your face. Do yourself a favor. Yeah. Well, and I think it just, it strikes that,

(01:05:34):
you know, we're creating circular economies or we're reaching out, but there are quality
products too. It's not like they're desperate. It just happens to be, you know, plebs making
things for other plebs is, there's a lot of proof of work there and we appreciate it.
A hundred percent. And that's why people keep coming back. You know, I talked to

(01:05:56):
Ben Justman. I'm a subscriber to his, excuse me, his wine club now. I send it to family members
for birthdays and Father's Days and Christmas presents.
And it's because these things are good.
And it's awesome because I know no one in my family has ever heard of it.

(01:06:17):
My friends have never heard of it.
And then I get to send it to them.
And then I blow them away with how good this stuff is.
And it's so cool to see other people appreciate a good quality product
that they've never heard of.
And that's why these people are known.
That's why they're successful.
That's why they're doing well.
And that the exact story I want to tell is that when you building a quality product when you open yourself up to the Bitcoin community they will reward you if you making something good And you will make a quality product

(01:06:50):
if you have that ethos, right,
of bringing back those values,
which is why most people become Bitcoiners in the first place.
A hundred percent.
I mean, we're in this, I don't know if you want to call it,
a honeymoon phase or whatever.
where the people that are drawn to Bitcoin inherently care about quality.

(01:07:13):
And eventually one day Bitcoin will just be the money
and then we'll have a bunch of crappy products
and everything we have today anyways.
But right now it's almost like a selecting, a sorting mechanism
where if you see someone's accepting Bitcoin and they're serious about it
and it's not just some marketing ploy or immediately converted to fiat,

(01:07:36):
But hey, we take Bitcoin seriously.
We store it on our balance sheet.
It is a 99.9% chance that's a really good product you're going to be getting.
Avi, what are you going to sell?
Get a cow, maybe do some raw milk?
Yeah, I still need to think about that.

(01:07:59):
Yeah, with all my free time.
Maybe be stiff competition for Yarn Lady.
Oh, yeah.
I was thinking about Buffalo because they produce A2 milk, which is a lot better for you than the A1 crap that we get.
Yeah, that's what my wife drinks.
And you got a son too.
You can get him to teating, you know.

(01:08:21):
Right.
I would love to see that he is a raw milk salesman.
Well, I've called him before and he was on the road going to pick up some in some undisclosed location.
Yeah, we have a place here.
It's an Amish place.
And you have to sign a form that, A, you're not on bed, and B, it's for your pet.

(01:08:47):
Yeah, we have to sign at this place, too.
It's about 20 minutes away from where I live.
And they have, I mean, you don't have to sign it.
It's the really cool thing about some of these farms.
They don't accept Bitcoin, but there's no one there, right?
You go to the fridge, you pick up the milk, and you put the money in, five bucks per gallon.

(01:09:08):
You put that into a little slit, and it falls into a box.
And then you're supposed to sign your name there because according to New York state law, they're supposed to keep track of everyone who bought it.
But zero enforcement of any of this.
So it's great.
It's run by the CCP, Avi.
It's all facial recognition is your payment.

(01:09:28):
Even worse, when you put your fingers in that slit, it's actually taking your fingerprints.
They want to know who the ungovernables are through the form of raw milk.
Could be.
So, Brandon, talk about your time in Prague for BTC Prague.

(01:09:50):
Was this your first time there?
It was my first time there.
And I'm actually a little bummed out that you said the last two years were even better.
because I thought it was incredible.
It was my first time.
I was blown away.
You did mention that there were kind of the NGU,
maybe suit coiners there.
But I mean, I guess maybe coming from Orlando and Vegas in May,

(01:10:15):
I was a little jaded.
But I felt like very little of that there.
And I thought it was very high signal.
and uh you know i ended up uh in in the lounge talking to luke dash jr and peter todd and not
even realizing it until about three minutes into our conversation they probably thought i was the

(01:10:35):
biggest tart on the planet but i i just i thought it was so cool i thought it was so well done
it it was a this the size of the space was like exactly perfect for the amount of people that were
there and I just love the fact that you could go outside and get some sunshine real easily
and I just I really enjoyed it did you happen to use the promo code NOSTER to get your tickets

(01:11:01):
uh as as a uh speaker that Madius finally kindly gave me a ticket so sorry Avi didn't work on him
yeah yeah the discount code NOSTER didn't uh work too well this year uh unfortunately there
wasn't that much NOSTA stuff though which is a little disappointing Brandon maybe there was a few

(01:11:22):
mentions of NOSTA here and there but I I don't I don't think there were any prominent NOSTA talks
this year I I don't recall any yeah it was it was all bitcoin um which I guess for a bitcoin
conference is to be expected but the primal booth was nice um but that was one only one

(01:11:43):
client. So I agree. I, I'm sure I'm like both you guys. We always want more Noster content, but,
um, unfortunately we, we don't get as much as we want.
Did you bring the fan? You brought the family?
I did. I brought my wife and my five month old. And, uh, unfortunately the five month old was,

(01:12:05):
was not cooperating at the venue. So, but other than that, we'll have to meet in, uh,
Madeira
at the next halving.
What year is that?
The next one, Avi?
28, I think.
28, yeah.
I saw Rob Brindon

(01:12:25):
did a little note on Noster.
He was a little disappointed
with the kids area.
There wasn't enough content for kids.
There wasn't.
Yeah, but then I also
saw a video of kids
getting on buses, heading to the
event.
So that was
different.
So for the kids

(01:12:46):
who come there
with their parents,
they usually,
last year they
had this place
where they were
selling zap me
buttons.
They had a video
game area,
which is,
you can say
where should
kids really be
playing video
games.
But at least
they thought about
the kids.
And then,
you know,
same with the
previous year.
This year there
wasn't.
I think,

(01:13:07):
and maybe the
suit coiners
have something
to do with it.
They wanted to
keep it sort of
prim and proper so that the suits don't get upset, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, at the same time, you know, I can't really blame them.
That's not their job necessarily.
I understood the perils that came with bringing a baby to the event for sure.

(01:13:30):
And it's Europe.
They don't use air conditioning over there.
So, of course, it's going to be too hot.
There's no ice in the waters, right?
No ice in the water, no air conditioning.
Yeah, oh, and when you did ask for ice in anything,
I mean, they gave you, like,
they tried to, like, cut a cube in half with a butter knife
and give it to you.
They were quite stingy with the ice.

(01:13:53):
But I will say, Brandon, the weather was perfect for those.
Oh, unbelievable.
Yeah.
Yeah, and again, these are minor complaints.
You know, 98% of it was just a 10 out of 10.
So I was just really impressed with it.
And in my opinion, it's the best Bitcoin conference I've been to.

(01:14:16):
I think, Avi, you said at the beginning, there is no second best.
Well, I'm looking forward to the day when our children are pushing us around in a wheelchair at Bitcoin conferences.
I mean, you think really by the time we need a wheelchair that our kids are going to have to push it?
We're going to have like a chip in our brain where we just think about moving in a direction.

(01:14:38):
in.
Or a robot will be pushing us.
It's true.
Avi's AI, Avi.
Listen,
we don't eat seed oils.
We drink raw milk. We eat
only steak. Sometimes
raw steak. Do you
really think we're going to need a wheelchair?

(01:14:59):
It's true.
We're going to die
cutting a sirloin in half.
A hundred years
from now, yes. Yeah, exactly.
so you know you were you mentioned you were part of the early NOSTA wave
Brandon uh have so QW and I came in that December as well right around

(01:15:21):
pretty much the same time uh I joined the day after Jack announced it I think December 15th
or something like that 22 uh what have you noticed about NOSTA's evolution between then
I mean, the highs and lows, and do you feel like we're in some kind of Noster bear market right now?

(01:15:43):
I honestly don't, because I try to follow as many people as I can.
I try to, Noster is something that actually takes some effort on the user's part,
and that's a huge part of why I like it.
Like, you actually have to put the work in to get stuff out of it.
and I think there was, you know, in terms of the ups and downs,

(01:16:10):
I think there was a lot of excitement of like,
oh, hey, I'm just going to get on this thing.
It's just going to be Twitter,
except I'm not going to be beholden to whatever administration's in place
or Jack Dorsey or Elon Musk.
And that's just not really what Nostra is.
Like you have to put in the effort.
you have to put into the time.

(01:16:32):
And I think a lot of people came and got disillusioned by that and just left And they were super excited at the beginning and then it was reality sort of dawned on them that they actually had to do something to be a part of Noster
And so to me, even the bears or even the quote-unquote Noster bear markets are great

(01:16:55):
because, in my opinion, we're just kind of weeding out people
that I don't really want there anyways.
I really value the people that put in the time and effort on Noster and are willing to work through everything that is Noster.
And yeah, you know what? The flow is not perfect. The UX isn't 100% great, but that's kind of why I like it.

(01:17:18):
It's rough and rugged and it's on you to make the most of your experience.
and the people I find that come and complain about Noster are the ones who don't want to
put the time and effort in to make their own experience so I I like the people that are on

(01:17:38):
Noster because it is it's not super easy it's not boomerized it's not you just point click
something and then you're on there doing all the things that you were doing on your other platforms
So I think it's exciting. I think it's very obvious that signed messages, cryptography to sign messages is where the future is heading. It has to be because there's not going to be any other way to decipher between what's real and what's not other than someone putting it out.

(01:18:15):
and ultimately it will come down to the rep.
Anyone can sign a fake AI image or video or whatever,
but reputation will become paramount
and you basically get one shot at it as an individual.
And I'm excited for the future,
but I don't think we're in any necessarily lull or anything.

(01:18:38):
I add to my follower count every day.
I find more people on Noster that I didn't know existed before.
And so for me, it's always up and to the right on Noster.
Yeah. And the importance of communication on a protocol, just with sessions yesterday.
Yeah.
BTC sessions getting rugged from his YouTube.

(01:19:01):
It's kind of funny to me, though, because I saw him.
He did like Twitter spaces about getting rugged.
He was on another platform talking about getting rugged on another platform.
And then he says, hey, follow me on this other platform.
And to his credit, he said, follow me on Nostra too.
But it's kind of like everybody on Nostra, we just kind of point like, see, see, see.

(01:19:25):
Once we have that hyper-Nostra vacation, it's going to be something where this is the home.
It's just a matter of when, how much tyranny do you need.
you know with sessions it's a it's a special case though kW which is he's an educator and he needs

(01:19:49):
to go where where the people are right if he if he only i don't i don't blame him it's like you
know it's not like he's going to you know nost or nest to talk about it with 13 people or zap.stream
right now with let's say seven uh he's he's gotta he's gotta find the the loudest microphone
yeah i don't blame anyone for being on other platforms but it comes down to just you know

(01:20:15):
why building here is so important yes exactly and and and this will be maybe maybe it's not
five years maybe it's not 10 years but the the internet and the interlocking of protocols
being able to be built on top of nostril it to me it's so obvious that that's just how

(01:20:38):
of cyberspace is going to have to function.
You will need the Nostra protocol
to have a functioning web, in my opinion.
Yeah, I believe so as well.
So Brandon, what's next?
Man, just getting out there,

(01:20:58):
getting the word out there,
I would just ask anyone listening,
any of the plebs,
if you know a business,
if you have a family member,
a high net worth individual, just come to, and you don't feel like doing all the heavy lifting
and, or don't feel comfortable doing it. Maybe you're a couple of years into a Bitcoiner and

(01:21:18):
you don't have the tens of thousands of hours that some of us on our team have put into it.
And you'd rather give it to people that feel more comfortable doing it. I would just ask,
just please come to the website, send people our way. And what's next for us is we're just
going to get out there and i was telling uh our team i don't i don't do either of you guys watch

(01:21:41):
the show bosh uh on prime no i don't it's a stupid cop show i need to watch the road now and maybe
bosh yeah the road is definitely uh i was looking for recommendations but i'm also looking for time
too to watch it i i wouldn't waste your time with bosh it's just i'm currently on watching like kid

(01:22:03):
shows and stuff. My life revolves around a two-year-old dictator. I'm about to be there,
so I'm soaking it in during nap time while I can. I actually read a book when he was taking
nap times. There's no silence. Yeah, exactly. It's a silly caption. It's actually one of the

(01:22:28):
better ones. It's kind of well done. There's some decent dialogue. Titus Welliver is actually a good
But he's got a sign in his cubicle and then later in his house that says, get off your ass and start knocking on doors.
And that's basically our call to action is getting off our ass and knocking on doors.

(01:22:50):
Love it.
Anything else you want to plug, Brandon?
No.
I appreciate you guys having me on, Avi.
I loved chatting in Prague.
and I always just feel like these conversations could go on for hours,
and they usually do, and they're cut short by something.
But I really appreciate you guys having me on.

(01:23:12):
I love the program, love listening to you guys,
and Avi, you're a wordsmith, a literary savant.
I appreciate all your work, and QW, appreciate your hosting of the show
and always keeping things rolling.
You keep a good flow.
I love it.
well thank you Brandon

(01:23:34):
appreciate you taking the time
and sharing your wisdom with us
QW do you want to take us home
just curious what is the website
again? oh yeah sorry
I probably should have given that out when you
prompted me I'm trying to search it
trying to spell it right
yeah that's it
it's sovereign S-O-V-R-E-I-G-N

(01:23:55):
so sovereign without the first E
dot IO
and there's a story
behind the name and all that but um well i will definitely throw it in the show notes so yes
anybody appreciate that um we're on uh but the website's definitely the best place to go we have
a official account on nostr as well that i'm trying to run i'm doing a terrible job of it um

(01:24:18):
if if anyone out there has any interest in uh doing some social media work uh unfortunately uh
We don't exactly have coins knocking around right now,
but we definitely could use some help in that area, that's for sure.
And then on Twitter and LinkedIn as well

(01:24:40):
are probably the other couple places we do interact.
Brandon, are you a portmonto enjoyer?
Because Sovereign could well be a portmonto of store of value and Sovereign.
So it is a pseudo portmanteau, I would say.

(01:25:02):
Yes, it is store of value, and then rain is king.
So it's the king of store of value was the basis behind calling it that.
And sovereign with an E was taken, so that was a big part of it.
Yeah, it was $1.99 on Namecheap instead of...

(01:25:24):
Yeah, we couldn't afford a copyright lawsuit.
You got to stack sass, man.
I like to have fun with my Bitcoins, but not on domains.
We got to keep our corporate treasury, our Bitcoin treasury status.
Well, thank you very much.
It was obviously your plan.
We can talk.

(01:25:45):
I mean, conversations like this is why I go to Bitcoin events.
It's just a lot of synergy, just a lot of learning in between us.
And I really appreciated it.
And anybody listening, thank you very much, first off.
Second off, if you appreciated it or if you appreciate us, hit the subscribe on Fountain.

(01:26:10):
It's the new premium feature, and we really appreciate any of that.
But next week we're actually going to be on Thursday because 4th of July and my wife and I's anniversary is next Friday.
So we will see you on Thursday and hope to see you there.

(01:26:32):
Goodbye.