Jack of all Tradesmen

Today's Episode: Norm Reiger of HH Remodeling. Norm is a high end home remodeling contractor that has been in the business long enough to know what works and what doesn't. Norm gives us insight on how to keep a great staff and how to market and brand right which will have lasting effects on business growth. Norm also talks about his past in the military as well as loss prevention for retail, where skills such as body language reading come in especially handy.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Since 1961, Court's plumbing has offered friendly, reliable service to residences all over Bergen County, New Jersey.

(00:09):
We are a fourth generation family-owned business, unnotched in customer satisfaction and professionalism while working in your home.
We are the hydronic heating and water filtration specialists, with a workmanship guarantee to put you at ease so you can rest comfortably.
We offer financing for those big projects that catch you off guard, and we have a network of excellent contractors in all fields for any project you wish to tackle.

(00:37):
Call our responsive office team and we'll dispatch a handsome and educated technician to lay the smackdown on all your plumbing issues.
You can also find us at courtsplumbing.com, search us on Google, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, T-Talk, and YouTube.
Like, subscribe, and share please.

(01:27):
We are on episode 16.
We went on to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and we talked with GoBigSmallBiz.com, that awesome organization.

(01:48):
We had great conversations with those people.
We're just trudging along here.
We're just going to talk about what you want to bring up.

(02:18):
I'm a bit narcissistic. I like to hear the sound of my own voice.
That's what I'm hearing right now. I'm hearing myself speak and it's kind of soothing.
You're really close to the mic. You're probably maxing everything out. Let's see your levels.
Say something.
I'm not maxing out. You see because I have the headphones in so I can hear exactly how it's going to sound for the people.

(02:39):
I actually turned your headphones down really well.
Every time someone listens to you, they're like, oh, that guy maxes screaming all the time.
I said, no. It's the headphones.
Anyway, that was fun.
Episode 16, we are here with Norm Rieger of H&H Remodeling out of Hawthorne, New Jersey.

(03:03):
You actually hit us up randomly.
Maybe going on a couple of years ago.
I think it's more than that.
You had hit us up and you said, I would like to take you guys out to launch or something.
I want to use you guys as a plumber.
How did you find us?
I want to say back then it was still social media.

(03:24):
I'm pretty sure because what I was doing was I had one plumber that had been my main guy for years and years and years and years and years.
I really only used him. He was a one man show, rarely had a helper.
At some point he retired and went to work for a school system.
When he was phasing out, I was like, well, what am I going to do?
The yellow pages aren't a thing anymore.
I didn't just want to Google somebody.

(03:46):
Names that either I recognized from trucks or looked up or so on social media,
I reached out to about three or four firms to get a feel for people.
I can't just hire you and have you do a job without getting to know you.
I learned my lesson. That's a no go.
We have a whole repertoire of contractors, masons, electricians and stuff like that,

(04:09):
but we got to test you out.
We get it all the time.
Customers around here, they say, oh, I called this guy.
He had good reviews, but he just disappeared.
He left us high and dry.
He screwed this up.
Yeah, he had us.
So we don't want that.
The way you met us, it was super professional.
By the way, Norm's dressed nice and clean, freshly showered.

(04:30):
Me and Max literally just walked off the job.
So excuse the appearance.
I took a quick 15 minute nap in the truck before this.
He didn't even go home.
He's like, I'm going to go take a nap.
I'm like, all right.
So we went home, literally just went to his car and passed out for a little bit.
Yeah.
But yeah, so Norm, I'm sorry we're not giving you the best of the.
No, I probably should be more blue collar down a little bit, honestly, myself.

(04:54):
No, this is good because this is the goal.
This is the end goal of the blue collar trades.
It's not always dirty your entire life.
You do have to get down and dirty every once in a while.
And at some time I do wear a CEO shirt more than I wear the tool belt.
And that's okay too.
I'm good with that.
I can't wait for those days.
I'm so tired of being like a working manager.
They were really he'll test to it every day.

(05:17):
I'm like, he gets, yeah, he gets angrier and angrier.
And it's just like, it's so much, dude.
It's so much like I'm out working and the phone, my phone is ringing off the hook and
my office is calling with a million questions and everything.
And I just got to stop and put it down and pick up the phone and answer and call this
customer and quickly write up an estimate while I'm like upside down.

(05:39):
I'm upside down underneath a faucet trying to get it in.
You know what I mean?
So I'm waiting for the day where I can just kind of sit back and I'm experienced enough
where I can get the guys out and you know, you said you have six trucks, right?
Yeah, I think altogether it's about six of us now.
Yeah, six, either not including my including mine or six.
That's great.
Yeah.
I mean, especially in this area.
So you said we were talking before that we started, we started recording.

(06:04):
You opened up in 2004.
Yeah.
Out of Hawthorne and then there was a transition.
You kind of started as a handyman and there was a transition around 2009.
Yeah.
Well, around 2006 we started to rebrand and here's why.
So this is a second career for me.
I wasn't in the trades my whole life.

(06:25):
Now I grew up doing this kind of work.
I remember being seven years old standing on a deck of a roof and my grandfather built
a house in Hampton, Connecticut.
That's where I grew up in Connecticut.
And one of my first jobs out of high school was in a lumberyard, you know, retail, clerking,
you know, loading lumber, loading trucks and, you know, contractors back then it was kind
of, you know, there was no Home Depot in the Northeast.

(06:47):
So they weren't pulling into parking lots to get cheap labor.
So they say, Hey kid, you work at a lumberyard, you want to work on a weekend, you want to
work tonight.
And so I got my bones in the trades, learning from my family, learning from guys that hired
me or as a helper to work.
And then I stayed in retail a little longer and there was a company called Grossman's
back in the day called Grossman's Rickles.

(07:09):
It was like the pre Home Depot medium box stores.
All right.
So the cool part about Grossman's is when you were in the management program, they actually
almost put you through college on every product in the store.
So you had to get a badge for plumbing.
You had to get a badge for paint.
You had to get a badge for millwork.
You had to get a badge for doors and windows.
You had to learn and take tests and be able to tell a double hung window and how the rails

(07:32):
and the styles were made and manufactured.
Oh, wow.
So you got a really good base of product knowledge, which nobody does anymore.
Right.
So grateful to Grossman's.
They have that at Home Depot too.
It's just now it's stay at home moms that have those badges and that work in the plumbing
aisle.
They definitely don't have that at Home Depot.
I don't think it's the same.
But back then it was pretty cool.
So that's kind of how I learned the business.

(07:53):
Now I never did this for a living for the first, oh my God, 10, 15 years of my career.
I stayed in retail.
I got my degree in business management and in retail, I became a specialist in loss prevention.
So loss prevention is catching the bad guy.
So you're security.
I was security and I was good at it.
And then I started learning internal investigations and hidden cameras and get out of here.

(08:16):
They sent me to school for interview and interrogation, body language, reading, neural linguistics.
It was great because you can conduct an interview without giving someone the Miranda rights
because they're on the clock.
So we actually had more rights than the police.
And I became very successful at a young age and eventually got promoted out of what I
enjoyed doing.
I was the youngest director of loss prevention in the country working for a company called
Ocean State Job Lot up in Rhode Island when I was 25 years old.

(08:39):
I was a director, 71 stores.
So that was my first career and I got promoted around the country and I was down here working
for, I don't want to say the company's name, luxury big box store in the area, short hill
malls.
And I was a vice president and director for them and it just wasn't working out.
I lived in Hawthorne and I said, look, I'm going to tap out, gave my numbers to the recruiters,

(09:02):
go find me another job.
You know, headhunters back then is what we worked with.
And I said, you know, I'll make some spear cash doing what I grew up doing.
I'll just pick up a tool belt, do some handyman work around town.
And it very quickly grew into a business within six months.
By six months into it, I knew I was never going to work for anybody again for the rest
of my life.
So the company started its Hawthorne handyman and it was just me, no helper, me and a little

(09:26):
red truck.
Wow.
Wow.
Just doing little odd jobs here and there.
It was the craziest thing.
I put an ad in the Hawthorne press.
That's when newspaper ads actually worked.
We're not talking 30 years ago.
No.
We're talking like 18 years ago.
You're talking about this millennium.
Yeah.
Like this century.
In 2004, and put an ad in the Hawthorne paper and people call and say, Hey, you know, my
gutters falling off the house from the storm.

(09:48):
Can you come screw it back on?
Or, you know, can you power wash my deck?
Or can you repair my bifold door that's falling off the track?
And I had this breath of experience.
Could you paint?
Of course.
I didn't know how to price myself.
So I ended up thinking I was making good money in the beginning, but not really knowing
what the competition was charging.
And then the tax man came a year later.

(10:08):
So, you know, you go through the growing pains of going from being an employee your whole
life to learning how to run a business.
But that was how I transitioned into the trades as for a living.
What did you do about equipment?
I just bought as you went.
I bought as I went.
I mean, I had a bunch of tools.
I look, I had tools my whole life.
I did a little addition on my house when I lived in Rhode Island.
So I had a good base set of tools.

(10:30):
I didn't have to start from scratch.
You know, they weren't great Milwaukee stuff.
You know, it was kind of, a lot of it was, you know, cheap Ryobi.
I'm kind of off Milwaukee to be honest.
I'm getting off Milwaukee.
My company's big into wall.
That's just because we got addicted to the batteries and we just can't change.
The batteries are the best.
Yeah, I know.
But, you know, so that's how I did it.
So it transitioned and it became very successful and I enjoyed what I was doing.

(10:52):
I liked the creating process.
I liked the, when you finish something, as you know, at the end of the day, look, I did
that.
I, you know, I installed that boiler.
Look how clean that pipe work is.
You know, that kind of thing.
And I never looked back.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
So you started, oh, oh, four was when you kind of made that transition.
Yep.
And you had said you have more of, I don't want to put this more of a branding, marketing,

(11:21):
business building mindset than a contractor really.
Well, I don't know if I always did, but at least in the last 10 years, I'll say, because
how I transitioned, you know, I was in Hawthorne handyman and that was the name of my company.
And I did very well and I eventually got a helper and I eventually had an employee.
But the name was actually hurting me for what I wanted to do.

(11:43):
Right.
So I, I had big dreams and big thoughts and I'm always want to make things bigger and
scale it.
And no one's going to hire you to do an addition on their house.
If your company name is handyman and neither would I.
But we were capable and I was business wise, had the mindset that I could do it in a quality
way.
Even if I hadn't done a lot of them, I know I would vet and hire quality subcontractors

(12:05):
who, you know, learn from the framers, learn from the roofers and get it done and manage
it to the, to the level that even if I personally couldn't frame a hip roof, I can make sure
a hip roof was framed to plan and on time and done with quality.
Where'd you learn to read plans?
I told myself to read plans.
Did you really?
Yeah, I did.
I told myself to read plans.

(12:25):
And then again, when I started YouTube videos, wasn't a thing.
You know, I actually read a couple books.
Holy cow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stop depressive.
Jesus crazy.
So when I started the company that I would read at night, you know, to teach myself how
to, one book was called how to work alone.
It was great.
Like how to lay out a deck and frame something using the, you know, the Pythagorean theorem

(12:45):
and the, you know, the five, six, seven methods of you're working by yourself, you could,
you know, handle 12 foot joists and how to hold them into level and plumb and get the
bows and crowns.
Teaching yourself plans.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
Because we, there's like a whole semester in plumbing school on how to read plans.
They, they, they, they look at blueprints and it's like, it's got to be getting more

(13:08):
comfortable.
It does.
It does.
It gets more comfortable.
But in the beginning, it was like Chinese.
It is.
It is like, in the beginning, I missed things, you know what I mean?
I taught myself to, to, to read plans, but then, you know, you'd get to an inspection
and you know, I'm very proud.
I know we did the forms, right?
You know, we're there for the footing inspection and you know, the inspector says, well, where's
the footing drain?
Yeah.
And I said, what footing drain?

(13:29):
You see this little thing on the plan, the circle with the rocks around it.
That's, that's what you had to have there.
A lot of, a lot of red tape taught you a lot of lessons.
Lessons.
And you know, I, I didn't pretend to know it all.
So I was happy to learn.
Yeah.
I didn't mind making mistakes because as long as I didn't hurt anybody or cost any money,
you know, the mistakes helped me grow.
Of course.
Yeah.
Well, same with us.
I mean, I had a pretty, so before plumbing, I was building swimming pools.

(13:50):
I didn't know that.
Like high end swimming pools, conquer with, you know, laminar jets and, you know, spray
spas, intricate tile stuff like that.
Every time we go to Englewood Cliffs, he points them out.
Yeah.
Every time we drive through that pool, it was all like, you know, mawa, ten of fly,
Englewood, T-neck, all like beautiful pools.

(14:11):
The guy who I worked for, he was in business for a hundred years.
He's like fourth generation.
They were putting in swimming pools a hundred years ago.
I'm not even kidding.
I didn't even know that was a business.
I guess it was very great.
So in this area, in this area, there was a lot of money back then and people were starting

(14:31):
to put in swimming pools.
And the back in like, I guess the last quarter of the 19th century, 1800s, whatever it was.
So he started in like 1904.
He's like, you know what?
I can figure this a hole in the ground.
So he started doing swimming pools back then.
And then his grandfather took over and then his father took over and then he took over.

(14:55):
So he knows in and out.
And he got to a point where pools is crazy now.
The technology they have for pools, what you can do with pools is insane.
He builds his swimming pools with in-floor cleaning systems.
So there's about 30 heads that are built into the floor.
And each zone has like five or six heads on it and a zone will raise up and it'll blow,

(15:18):
it'll push water and push all the dirt down toward the main drain automatically.
The heads raise up on the drain.
And the heads raise up about three quarters of an inch.
And there's a sprayer.
So it's kind of like a niche market that he does.
It's crazy.
And all his pools are natural.
He takes like a very natural approach to design.
But that's how I started.

(15:39):
So I had a good plumbing background.
When I came in here, my uncle who I work, you know, who kind of tried to show me the ropes,
he's like, you really pretty much got this.
I mean, it's, you know, besides like boilers and stuff, plumbing is not that difficult.
You got to make sure your pitches are right.
You got to just, you got to understand that shit flows downhill.
You know what I mean?

(16:00):
So when you're putting in pipes, you got to make sure your pitches are right, that the
tees are curved where it's going to flow.
Boilers and stuff, something totally different.
But I had a pretty good background.
And when you came in, you know, I didn't have to go nuts with you or I didn't get too frustrated

(16:21):
with you.
I was, yeah, I was, I'm fairly handy, but I don't like, my uncle was a carpenter and
a really good carpenter, so anytime he would do work like on my parents' house, I would
help him out with that kind of stuff.
But I wasn't, I was never in like one of the trades, like one of you two.
There's always, there's always like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of random stuff from
your past that can come up and help whatever you're doing.

(16:41):
Even if it wasn't really even related to that.
I'm lucky because pools was, but it seems like you were jumping all over the place from
security to handyman to now remodeling.
And I've seen your social media.
I mean, I see you doing podcasts, the videos you do are super high quality.
I see more, and this may be a little prejudgmental, but I see more of a marketing businessman than

(17:07):
a builder.
Well, that's how I, no offense.
That's how, that's not a friend.
That's how I identify now.
What are the pronouns for that?
Sure.
It's funny, but that's really how I think of it though.
When I started, I was a handyman and you know, you kind of, you are what you do every day.
So you know, and I thought, you know, people say, what do you do?

(17:28):
I'm a handyman.
And then as I began to do a lot more remodeling jobs, which I enjoyed, you know, I wouldn't
say I'm a construction manager.
I'd say I'm a carpenter.
You know, I'm a carpenter.
I own a construction.
I own a remodeling company.
But in recent years, I don't even, I say I'm the owner of a construction company.
And I don't know that wasn't deliberate, that changed in my head because I, that's how

(17:50):
my brain works, my brain's about scaling, my brain's about marketing, my brain's about
staying in touch.
I see a lot of guys in the trades that own businesses that have been very successful
over the years.
That'll say things like, oh, my wife does my paperwork at night.
You know, your paperwork.
I mean, that's what they call the entire running of the business is my paperwork.
And I'm not trying to disparage anybody else, but I don't want to be that guy that go,

(18:12):
uh, TikToks, that's for the kids.
I ain't never doing that.
I don't use my phone for email.
But that's, look, if that's who you are, I'm not judging, but I as a businessman, I'm
kind of like a Gary Vee school, you know, like of the entrepreneur spirit.
And I want to, I don't want to dismiss something because I, it's for the kids or that's dumb
because you get out there, you'll, you'll feel what works and what doesn't.

(18:35):
The kids are going to eventually grow up and own homes.
They are.
And, and, and they're, and they're, and they're not going to be on Facebook because that's
for old people already.
So you know, we're already behind.
So, so what, right now when I do my social media blasts, I have my company put it out
on, it goes out on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and TikTok.

(18:57):
And the cool thing about TikTok that I'm hoping for, I was, we were talking about my dog blooper
video and we'll, we'll get into that.
But the cool thing about TikTok versus Instagram or Facebook is right, Instagram and Facebook,
the only people that see your videos is the people that follow you or two exceptions.
You boost a post by paying for it to get disseminated or blasted or you create a reel and reels

(19:20):
do get some organic reach.
TikTok is nothing but organic reach in the beginning.
They just blast it out to everybody.
And if people start to like it, follow a pause on it, then it starts kicking it out more.
So all you need is one viral TikTok video to kind of, YouTube's I guess is, is kind
of organic as well.
YouTube is the same, well they have the shorts now, which kind of work the same as reels.

(19:40):
Exactly.
Every trying to do the same thing.
It's a lot of work though.
It is a lot of work.
I pay somebody to do a lot of what you see.
You know, I'm, I create the content in my head.
I don't script it.
I go in like we came in today, we kind of tossed around like what the idea is going
to be in general and we start talking and we start flowing.
And for me, it didn't happen on purpose.

(20:02):
The videos that when I was teaching and not preaching were the ones that got the most
positive feedback.
So I pivot.
Yeah.
You know, no one wants to go, Hey, come to HHModeling.
We will do a great job.
You know, that's, that's a TV commercial for 1970s television salesman.
They liked when I said, Hey guys, do you know what that pipe that goes through the roof
is?
What's that?
That's called event pipe.

(20:22):
People don't realize when I talk about vents, they think I'm talking about HVAC.
There's an event in your roof that allows air to flow behind water.
As you guys know, to stop vacuums from being created, to stop gurgling, to make toilets
flush right.
And people go, wow, that was a cool video.
So I got good feedback that, Hey, I never knew that.
Norm, I'm driving around neighborhoods and now I'm looking at pipe sticking out of
roofs.
We were tossing, we're, we're trying to get out.

(20:43):
And I kind of been talking to other plumbers about this, do like a top five series, top
five things you should know how to do in your own home with plumbing.
Or top five things you shouldn't touch or top five things.
What else are we talking about?
Top five things you should call professional for versus tops five things you should know
and be able to do on your own because people, that's great.

(21:04):
Top five, top five newest products you should have or you should look into or should stay
away from easy.
Plus top five is great.
Top five is in top three is their self.
Absolutely.
They like it being finite.
They don't, they know they're not going to go on for 10 things and they can take it.
I don't mind putting it on here because I know you and you and I can do it better anyway.
So anyone can steal that idea.
Go for it.
It's all out there.

(21:24):
It's all out there.
Things that you should go to like Home Depot and Lowe's for versus things that you should
stay away from those places for, you know.
So people hire me to do bathroom renovations or even additions that include bathroom renovations.
I give them this information sheet after we sign the contract.
And what you should shop for when, because I don't need you shopping for countertops
when you need to be shopping for the valve body.

(21:46):
It's going behind the wall.
And what not to shop for at the big box store versus what I don't care if you do.
You know, cause I don't care if you hand me a sconce light that's going on the wall,
flicking your mirrors from Home Depot or you go to capital lighting if that still exists.
Or you buy it on build.com.
But if you're going to buy a shower valve without integral stops that isn't going to
pass an inspection at Home Depot, that's a problem.

(22:09):
Or Amazon.
You know, that's what we try to, we try to guide you.
Amazon is another one.
I feel like Amazon is even worse than worse.
People that call us up and I got the part already and you know that you're going to
walk into an Amazon or Home Depot special that like you said doesn't have integral stops.
Amazon's terrible.
Or doesn't come up, meet code or anything and you're just like, sorry, but I'm not putting
this in.

(22:29):
And they'll get it.
And we'll be like, okay, and we will put it in and be like, listen, I'm not warranting
anything.
I'll let you, as soon as my tool bag passes that door and I get in my truck, it's all
you.
I can't, if you got it from Amazon, I can't warranty it.
I'm sorry.
And it's a tough position to take, right?
Because you always want to make it about the customer.
You want them to have just great experience.

(22:49):
But you also can't get taken advantage of when you try to guide and say, look, I'll put this
in for you.
But if it was my house, I wouldn't do it and here's why.
And if they say do it, then you have to take that position.
You got to protect yourself.
You know, we all have different things that, you know, your quirks, the things that keep
coming back to haunt you over and over again.
And you know your brands and you tell people, listen, stick with these brands, stay away

(23:11):
from these brands.
Do they listen?
Not always.
No.
You know?
And sometimes it doesn't matter.
And other times it can.
And that's when you kind of have to leave them with a disclaimer.
Yeah, you're right.
Our biggest problem around here is water quality, which is destroying plumbing from the inside
out.
And there's nothing I can do about that.
You can spend $3,000 on a faucet or 200.

(23:34):
It's going to eat the inside the same, exactly the same.
It only really matters what faucet has a better warranty.
So that's why we've been pushing filtration a lot lately because there's nothing I can
do.
Like our chlorine content is high.
You can smell it in our water.
You can smell the magnesium and we have a uranium in our water.

(23:57):
So we got, we got really into filtration in Bergen and Bergen County is terrible.
Well, I think that's one of the first topics we talked about when we met years ago at the
diner.
Yeah.
We were talking about the water.
I had no idea it was that bad until you, you kind of shed some light on it for me.
They goes, and this is, this is what you guys can look at at your water reports.
You're going to look for, there's two columns that they give you the MCL.

(24:22):
I think I'm going to get this right.
And the MCLG.
So minimum content level and that's your reading and minimum content level goal, which is what
they're aiming for.
And those two rarely line up.
So MCL is what the federal government will allow you to give your customers as a water

(24:44):
company.
Okay.
But there's a goal that they're trying to reach.
And if you're using this water 20, 30, 40 years, people don't think about when you shower,
you're creating all those chemicals, you're making them into steam.
So you're sitting there breathing for 10, 15.
And I'm telling you, you go to New York City, you drink their water, delicious.

(25:05):
Nobody drinks their water around here.
It's verifiably horrible without a test kit.
You know what I mean?
You don't need a test kit to know that our water is terrible.
Wow.
Well, if you do shut the water off to your house, let it sit for a minute and then turn
the water back onto your house and run your faucet and you see how brown disgusting your
water comes out.
You drain your pipes.
Yeah.

(25:26):
If you drain your, like we have to do it all the time.
We drain, because if we do a water heater, we got to drain the house so we can redo the
piping and you always get that blast of brown coming through.
And it's coming from the line from the street to your house.
I mean, we have people, they've been actually good with changing out the lead lines.
They've been, they had like a one year thing where if you sign up, you can do it for free.

(25:47):
A lot of people missed it, which sucks.
But people don't understand that the water quality around here, we're changing out faucets
five, 10, 12 years later and you go out to Ohio where my parents are, they have the same
faucet for like 30, 40 years.
A Home Depot special because the water, water's not as aggressive.

(26:08):
See I didn't realize it was that chronic, just specific to this area.
Oh yeah.
This bad here versus everywhere else.
Because we get our water from underneath us and look at all the infrastructure and the
infrastructure and everything soaking into the ground.
I mean, it makes sense.
I just kind of figured it was like that everywhere except for like Montana.
I learned most of it from a, not most of it, I learned a lot from actually a customer when

(26:29):
he bought a filtration system.
He bought a filtration system and he, I asked him, why'd you buy it?
Because we try to encourage people to get it, but why'd you buy it?
And he just goes, he starts rambling all these facts about how, because he started a family
and we have the highest rates of cancer in the country.
We have the highest rates of twins in the country.
We do.
Twins.

(26:49):
They're not, it's not just like some natural freak thing.
It's, it, there's, there's correlations that, you know, to, to, it's like Aaron Brockovich.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have hexavalent chromium in our water.
There's, when you, if you go, if you go to your water report, you'll, you'll get, you'll
have a very slight reading of hexavalent chromium.

(27:10):
That started eight, nine years ago when it was United Water.
Yeah.
I remember before it was taken over.
Yeah.
And what's a French company?
Oh, they're meeting the federal goals, but that doesn't matter.
It's fine that you're meeting the federal goals, but they're testing, they're not doing
a 30, 40 year old test as, as long as you're living in the house and you keep using that

(27:33):
water.
We push filtration all the time.
I'm completely taking this away from your chakeries.
No, no.
I'd look, I'm happy to just talk about it.
I wasn't, that's, that's, it's great stuff because I still, it's not front of mind.
Right.
But this is, this is, you do a lot of completely new builds and remodels.
Yeah, this is great for you to give to a customer to yeah, no absolutely well

(27:53):
One it's just important in general even after a sale
I think people should be aware of this and not everybody's open
I think very few people are actually aware of it. We got we got hooked up with
He was the Manhattan's director of health
And he ran for like 25 years. He ran Manhattan's health board and now he does strictly filtration on a Long Island

(28:15):
Long Island has some of the worst water in the country. They're worse than us. Yeah, so he's been putting in filtration systems out there
Top of the line stuff now. They're expensive
but we
We took his product and we've been been installing it around here and every customer is like mind-blown
You can sell the water, you know, and I don't want to plug the product until they're gonna pay for advertising

(28:37):
So I'm not gonna say it. I'll just keep selling it behind like you know to customers, but it's it's a huge difference
All right, we're gonna have to talk off off camera. All right, we will but I mean listen
This is good ammo if you if you're if you're doing remodels and percent and new builds already in my back pocket good
So what you do is you you umbrella like your your business umbrellas like electrical HVAC plumbing everything

(29:01):
Do you do contract all that stuff out? It really depends on the job max
So if I'm doing a whole addition on somebody's house, they want to hire a general contract that they want to talk to one person
They want one person to be in charge and I have the experience now over the years to really be able to manage the trades and and
The best part is that once you know how to manage the trades
You eventually vet to the point where you don't need to manage the trades because the trades working for you the ones that you know

(29:26):
How they operate you know that they're neat and clean you know the text you bite
Yeah, you know the guys that know how to put in a light fixture and not leave footprint fingerprints all over the ceiling after the
House is right brand new right you know the people that aren't gonna you know walk on brand new sanded floors without throwing on their own
Drop cloth that isn't full of rubble
So you learn to manage the trades then you learn to vet the trades and then pretty soon you develop a team and a bullpen of trades

(29:51):
That are at your level
And that's fantastic because once I'm holding them to my standard and my customers appreciate them at that level
I don't have to micromanage them
I don't want to micromanage them as long as they're delivering and they're executing and they're cooperating with everybody else
You know everybody's got a plane nice. Yeah, building a house
You know who wants it at the HVAC guy wants the base first to run the duct work, you know plumbers

(30:12):
We usually get them in second and but you know there's there's sometimes conflict
I was gonna say so you're pretty good at being able to coordinate who comes in first second third and stuff like that
Because we've worked for GC's that are just winging it everybody going at the everybody's in at the same day on the same day
Oh, yeah, I've had guys walk off the job in the day when we first started because I wasn't managing it properly

(30:33):
Yeah, and so look
Like you guys know time is money and and whether it's on a micro scale or a macro scale
So in the big course of things if if I'm doing a renovation that's six months for a big addition
And I lose a couple days here and there because of a weather event or you know
Somebody has a service call and they can't come do construction plumbing that day
That's kind of factored in but if you start making mistakes and sending guys to job

(30:57):
And then they can't work for a reason and they leave and they go do something else
And now they can't come back from two weeks and that happens a lot and it compounds
You're making less money in a year. Oh, yeah
That's what's happening, right? So, you know and people don't understand that unless you relate it to a salary
So if you're the manager of McDonald's and you make 60 grand a year if I told you well

(31:17):
Look, you got to work an extra two months this year for the same salary is 60 grand great for 14 months
If you were happy with it for 12, it's certainly not right
So in in running a company where we're trying to get paid
People always worried like we're gonna drag their job out. How long is it's gonna take six months? Can you do it any sooner?
We'll go into why the bar is set so low

(31:38):
But look, I want your money as quick as I could possibly get it
Yeah with quality and not you know sacrificing anything
So for me to make my money correctly, I have to run like a Swiss watch whenever possible
Yeah, you have to time the trades you have to prophylactically have people shopping for things when you need them
You have your vendors that are on your cell phone. They say look

(32:00):
I need the roughs delivered on Tuesday, but you're gonna be holding these finishes these trims until six months for me
And here's why and if you have vendors that are happy to work with you and develop the relationship and know you know
What you're doing they're okay to do that for you
You know, I have a kitchen cabinet company that normally for other people they want to drop ship directly to job site
They don't room to store kitchens

(32:20):
Yeah, but I've been working for these people long enough and I take care of the people who take care of me and
If there's a gym up or a customer's
Screws up and they can't get their inspections on time or they didn't order their sheetrock or there's you know
GC and part of the job themselves and we ordered cabinets
They'll take them and hold them for me and those relationships are so important networking and relationships with your vendors with your subs

(32:43):
It's it for your support group is huge. It's huge
Well, and you know it it kind of tarnishes your reputation if you don't have everything in order
and if you're scheduling not properly and stuff and you know
Because what I've seen on social media your reputation is on point
Your product is on point. You know what you're talking about that you can spout off

(33:03):
And just sitting here doing this like you know your stuff and when you sit down with someone who doesn't know their stuff
Because there's a lot of GC's out there
We've worked for them. I can think of one specifically
Bfm that's a little that's a little
Nickname we came up with one. Okay, we won't say what that means on camera
Like actually another one came to mind to funny guy

(33:27):
But it doesn't matter if you're funny like he didn't know how to plan
there's guys stumbling on top of each other and
Especially in this area. This is where the money's at. We haven't had we we had a sorry to interrupt
But we haven't had one I don't think since I've worked with you a good experience with the GC
No, because we've had GC's that have either put us on jobs where everybody's in at the same time

(33:52):
Okay, so like HVAC electrical, you know contracting whatever it is and then we've had homeowners who do it
Oh, yeah, who GC the job and that's that's the worst the worst the worst that's the worst and
And look there's a value to what I do. I mean obviously I believe that because I do a 1000%

(34:13):
If you know what you're doing there's a value to what I do because people think okay
Well, I could you see this myself. I'm gonna hire my electrician. I'm a hire tile guy. I'm a hire sheet rock guy
And you can you technically can and you're gonna save about 10 to 12% on the job
but if you don't know what they're supposed to be doing and you don't know who needs to go first or you don't know little

(34:34):
Numance is like I think I'm the only general contractor in northern, New Jersey that understands fire draft stopping code
It's a code that nobody knows that like exists. It's what you it's true
Yeah, you're right you've been in the house. Did you see the orange foam in the holes? But people don't realize when you fire draft the basement
We do a lot of finished basements
Every eight feet you have to have a piece of sheet rock that goes from the stud back to the cement wall to prevent back draft from behind

(34:58):
The studs because in a basement the stars aren't up and get the sheathing so fire can run behind the studs
So you have to have that you have to have certain whenever a horizontal meets a vertical
You know what fire in a wall with a light switch jumping up into a ceiling and run across the joys
So fire draft stopping once you learn it, you know it. It's good. Nobody knows it
So especially a homeowner so it's and that's another that's to the point you were speaking to so if you're GCing yourself

(35:22):
You're gonna fail a whole lot of inspections and most inspectors are gonna say look my job's to inspect not to teach you how to do it
Right, you got you got to look this up and figure this out one out
I mean you might get a nice guy that goes hey look here's what you got to do
You have to fill this in but the inspector isn't there to teach you the code
You're like insurers sure you did it right you're like insurance for a homeowner like you when you hot when somebody hires you

(35:45):
They know that the job is gonna get done right they don't have to worry about the plumber
They don't have to worry about the electrician
They don't have to worry about those guys because you're gonna be on top of them
That's what they pay you for well
It's a hundred percent accountability right I'm the guy that stands in front of the camera and does these type of podcast
And I'm the guy that they talk about in my Google reviews
I take full credit when everything's going good, but it's not me right

(36:05):
I got this team behind me that we've built part of my doing you know vetting and building the team and building the culture
But I'm not executing all the work, but I take the credit, but I also take all the blame
100 I'll never tell a homeowner that the plumber made a mistake or at the tile guy cut that bad or this that that's
Respectable they might have but

(36:27):
Look, it's it's all my credit
It's all my blame and that's just the way I operate and people appreciate that I think eventually most of them anyway
No, that's that's actually a great point and that's fair. I believe but we have
we did
We did a
Kitchen renovation half bathroom new bathroom install

(36:48):
Completely revamped the kitchen and then had ended up having to like redo the bathroom upstairs and the homeowner decides to GC
They're like oh, we're gonna GC. I'm a designer. So I'm gonna GC a lot of that
Oh, yeah, so a lot of that burger. Yeah, so there was no
First of all, there was no scheduling proper now. They did get screwed by some contractors. They hired that

(37:09):
Just wouldn't show up which is frustrating. So it's not all on them. However, the biggest thing is they have
huge marble tiles and marble countertops that went in and
We ran piping for toe kick heaters
The electrician never ran is why I watched this do they? Oh, no. Yeah, never ran is wiring

(37:31):
So we go in to hook up the toe kick. She's like, all right, the floor is done. We go in there like there's no
120 volt wire we need we need power for these and
I know for a fact I told them that we need power for these and I talked to the electrician but early on in the job
But there's no
There's no one there with the mindset of a GC. She just wants it done

(37:53):
There were different people on that job. I think we were the only contractors on
That really she went through like turn over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've had that a lot too
That's the biggest thing. There's I don't think there's any job that we've
That we've been on that we've ever like walked off of we've finished
See it from start to finish and almost every single one that we've been on we've we've seen rolling contractors

(38:19):
Well, yeah, you know, which is extremely frustrating for electricians on one job that we were on once who wasn't even that big
So this is what I'm saying like I tell people all that so we don't we're just a two-man operation
Mm-hmm, so we don't do a lot of renovations
We'll get some usually in the summer is when I'll pick them up
But I tell customers all the time listen, you got to get a GC you have to get a GC

(38:41):
You can't wing this you can't sign permits on this. So it's gonna first of all if you try to do this
You're gonna shave years off your life. That's you're gonna be it's so frustrating. So and that's why I mean it well
You need we need a guy like norm
Everyone needs a normal question. There was a there was a saying I heard once that renovation is like the fourth major

(39:05):
Stress in life after death in a family
Divorce or major illness like renovation. It's the fourth one and I added to that by saying sometimes it causes one of the other three
Yeah, because you know if you go put yourself look
I feel for people even when we're nailing it and we're doing a great job, but it's a big job
Yeah, and people are living through a lot of this. It's not all new construction. Yeah, they got kids

(39:27):
They got pets. They want they want a refrigerator and a stove back
they get renovation anxiety and
Eventually renovation fatigue and they want you gone as much as they love you you could be the best contract in the world
They want you out of their house and if it's not going well that just compounds. I know it's stressful for everyone

(39:48):
You know, what were you gonna ask? Oh?
That's fine. I wanted to know like when you decided that transition from being hands-on to being a little bit more hands-off
Like what what sparked that? I mean, I know you had that business mentality. You said for a long time
but
What was that transition like because I had I hope to one day have my own business and and possibly make that trans

(40:13):
Don't look at me like that possibly make that transition
You know to kind of doing like what you're doing, you know hands off and running the show
Okay, the first tip I'll tell you is don't get used to the money
You're making because every time you need to make a transition you got to take a pay cut
Yeah, and what I what I mean by that is okay
Let's say it's me and a helper me and one employee and I feel like I'm gonna need another employee

(40:36):
Let's just do some math, right? So let's say nowadays call an employee
I don't know what you got hire somebody even somebody with skills. You got to hire 25 30 bucks an hour
So 25 30 bucks an hour of 1200 bucks a week
Which is 60 grand a year round round numbers plus payroll taxes federal employee contributions workers compensation
So now to make a profit on somebody you're paying 60 grand a year you hopefully got to bill them out at 120 year minimum

(41:03):
You know in other industries. It's three times salary
But let's say we can get away with two times salary because you're gonna have more than one employee eventually so
To pay somebody 120 grand a year
That means you need 120 grand a year or you to bill out somebody for that you need a 120 grand a year
Profit yeah, so do you have to do a million more to make enough to hire another guy?

(41:25):
Well, no, that's not realistic
But what you have to do is you can't wait till you need the guy
Because if you had that extra million dollars a year you could handle it
So at some point you feel the itch you feel that I can't do it anymore like this
But I got to take a step back as the business owner to
Invest in my business in which case I'm taking a pay cut so that I could afford the guy

(41:45):
Hoping that I'm right and I'm gonna scale this and that guy's gonna make me way more money eventually
Because now I'm making profit on two mechanics instead of one
But every time I took a step forward I had to take a little step back to push forward
That's kind of a tough reality to accept for some guys
I would say would love to think that the money all of a sudden
They're making an extra million dollars and it's hiring guys and buying trucks and I don't think in reality at least not from my experience

(42:07):
It works like that. Yeah, you got to take a you got to take a loan and buy a piece of equipment
You got to get a credit line that scares the crap out of you. Yeah, you know people wish for big credit lines
Let me tell you once you get them right
Yeah, because when I see that I owe bank two hundred thousand dollars that it's just floating out there
And you go, oh my god, that's like a mortgage

(42:29):
But you know, hopefully you manage it correctly
But it's it's scaling can get scary bigger bigger bigger business bigger problems
But to answer your question a little more succinctly. I
Didn't deliberately have a plan
I eventually hired guys and eventually hired more guys in what I just described to you and pretty soon
It didn't make sense for me like my time now was worth more than what I was paying them

(42:52):
And if I was spending my time on a job
Straightening out a deckboard when I could be reading blueprints, which I couldn't pay them to do or I couldn't be writing proposals
Which I couldn't pay them to do or I couldn't be making a business plan or making a marketing plan or setting up Google ads
Yeah, in the beginning you do it at night
You do it on your spare time, but at some point you want it to be your job, right? Yeah, and that's that's how it slowly

(43:15):
Happens over time. There's no big jump. I feel this in my soul right now
I know I do too because the reason I'm asking is because apart like I've said a lot of the other podcasts a lot of what
I'm trying to get out of it at least on my end is for younger generations to get into these trades, but to see that there's
There's different aspects of these trades like you started off, you know getting your hands dirty

(43:42):
and
And eventually you got to this point where now you're running the show and you've got six trucks on the road and and you're making
Money doing it that way like people think that we're just you know dealing with crap all day long and we are
But there's there's I don't say like a light at the end of the tunnel
But there's a goal that we have in mind and you want you guys are gonna get there because you stand out that goal is death

(44:06):
None of us are getting out of this alive the goal is a peaceful rest in the ground
Again, there's a reason that we're doing this and and I've heard people say oh
Why would I why would I get my kid into the trades when he can make as much money?

(44:28):
You know on tiktok or an Instagram or you know doing something selling online or whatever it is
But people make money in these trades and there's a lot of different ways to make money
And this is this is another way to make money and I think you can make money in any blue collar
Trade and also just any like business given the dampels not really. I don't if you call it blue collar

(44:49):
Well, it's not trades. It's blue collar. I
Told my step kids that I'm on my second marriage second round of kids
And I told my step kids when they were applying to college like what do you want to do?
What do you want to degree for yeah, there wasn't always a good answer sometimes
It's just because everybody's got a degree right but I said look
I don't care what you want to do if you have a business mentality and not everybody does some people

(45:10):
They don't want to and that's okay
Yeah, but I said you could be a hairdresser
But instead of making being excited that you could charge $50 an hour to be a hairdresser
I want you to be excited to learn the business you got to pay your dues
Nobody's gonna hire you to be a manager for something you didn't do long enough to know what you're doing
But be a hairdresser that you can command $50 an hour, but eventually you can command another $25 an hour on six more people

(45:34):
And shares next to you and that's how you become a millionaire being a hairdresser or being a hot dog vendor
Or being whatever it is you want to do if you can smartly and safely scale it
You're eventually making money
Beyond your personal limits. There's only so many hours in a day even if you're a lawyer and you can make 300 bucks an hour
And you could work 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week. There's still a cap

(45:57):
Yeah, there's still eventually but if you're a lawyer
That's a partner in a firm that owns a hundred or has a hundred lawyers working for you and you're making money on each of them
You now have no limit. Yeah, and that's the difference between doing it and scaling it
How long did it take you to learn your numbers?
When you got into when you got when you when you got out on the road and you left security
Okay, how long did it take you for your for to know your numbers and know where you should be at and where you know

(46:22):
Oh, wow, because we have it took I'll say it took me four years
To figure out how to do numbers where we should be at what we should be charging. It took me four years
Oh, I think I took a lot longer. Yeah. Yeah, maybe a little bit longer for me, too
I maybe it took longer. I'm sure it took longer for you. I mean, but it took you four years to get organized

(46:44):
Yeah, yeah, it took me about I still find it the hardest thing. I still have self-doubt
Every time I submit a big proposal. Yeah, so every time I'm bidding a job to do a
$500,000 addition on a home. I have self-doubt and I shouldn't because I'm doing it the way
I really think is correct based on experience based on thing

(47:05):
But I send it out and I go, you know in a $500,000 job
People are gonna get bids that are way up here and way down here and I'm looking to be right of what I call the sweet spot
In the middle because usually the guy that's way up here didn't even take the time to do the estimate
They just were swinging like they're like I don't really care if I get this job
If I charge $300 a square foot no matter what they pick

(47:28):
I don't even have to count two by fours or light switch. Yeah, I'm gonna be covered
So you want to wait that guy off the guy that's down here might have been me ten years ago
Who didn't know how to price myself didn't have a lot of experience was happy to get a job bigger than a bathroom remodel
So I'm getting an addition for $200,000. I think I hit the lottery
But that guy probably didn't bid it right unfortunately and didn't learn from experience yet

(47:52):
So he's gonna learn on that one. He's gonna learn on that one
So it usually try to be in the middle
But I still have doubt every single time my favorite thing a customer to do for me
And I've had a couple really cool ones this year where I get the dear John email because not everybody tells you you're not hired
You just get crickety get ghosted. Yeah, but I've had a couple really cool people say Norm
I want to thank you for your time. I will review your proposal

(48:13):
We're going in a different direction and then sometimes they elaborate and go your numbers were right on
You're within $10,000 of the other two bidders
We end up going with this guy because of XYZ and I love that kind of feedback
Yeah, I'm grateful that somebody because it takes a little that self-dial. I go good
I'm afraid maybe I overbiddered. I underbid it. It's nice to get that customer feedback
But you're right. I still doubt my own numbers today. We have a flat rate program that because we do flat rate service work

(48:40):
And it's easy for us because it's a point-and-click system
And you know what we'll talk about we I think before the show we were talking kind of talking about a program you you've been using
Yeah, we use it's called house call. Okay, and we upload our pricing
So when we go to a job, it's a point-and-click thing. We have to change the kitchen faucet. This is the price
You change the kitchen faucet. Here's an add-on for that kitchen faucet. It will automatically tally it automatically tally discounts and all that stuff

(49:06):
It's very simple now, but I even a doubt. I will even doubt large jobs
And I'll sit there. I'll go back. I'm like, ah, maybe we can trim off a little bit here
So I know exactly what you're talking about even when it's all even when I've taken weeks to set that up
And I know the numbers are on point. I'm still
Am I right? Am I gonna lose a job? So hard part of my job. Yeah, it's tough

(49:28):
Really, it's it's it's not easy
But you know what let's do this we've been talking for a long time, which is great because it hasn't felt like a long time
Let's take a break. All right. We'll take a quick break. We'll come back
We'll discuss
Whatever we want to discuss want to discuss that numbers program for sure
And I kind of want to pick your brain about marketing like what your perspective from marketing is like how you approach it stuff like that

(49:50):
Yeah, I want to hear yours too because that's why I'm here. All right. I don't have much but we don't
It'll be an interesting discussion for both of us because maybe I'll learn some things about myself
Very good. All right, folks. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Thanks for watching plum bums and
Come back when we're
Yeah, you get it. Yeah, by the way, where are you going? Huh? Where are you going? You're leaving that break?

(50:14):
No, I mean like in general
And cut the audio cut the audio off
Call courts plumbing and heating for top rated service in Bergen County, New Jersey
And don't forget to keep treats for Frankie on hand

(50:37):
These are the three most important words in construction
Planning communication and
execution
HH remodeling understands that all three concepts must work together

(51:00):
Which is why HH remains top rated and most trusted
All HH remodeling today
All right, folks welcome back to plum bums podcast the blue collar trades Michelle

(51:26):
All right, folks welcome back to plum bums podcast the blue collar show
We need one of those things, you know that I need something. That's all just call visit. What's those video things where they do by chat?
Yeah, I have one take three. Yeah, you have it. I'm gonna put back after bring it out great
All right ready
All right folks welcome back to plum bums podcast the blue collar trade show where we talk about small business and entrepreneurship in this modern day age

(51:54):
Episode 16. We're here with Norm Rieger from HH remodeling
Good first half man. We've just we discovered a lot about the business our perspective
perspective trades over here
We were we were discussing I think we wanted to get into some branding and marketing

(52:14):
Because that's become very important to me and Max. We actually we we've made a couple a lot of changes actually we did well
Uniforms are crap right now because they're filthy, but good uniforms. We went
to
Button downs to try to well, you know what my grandfather used to wear a light blue button down every day
Collar shirt and rolled up the sleeves. I was like, you know what? Let's go that route

(52:36):
It's a good look and actually you know what let me point this out actually back here
I was going through some old records and I found an old receipt from him
This is a receipt from 1982 a year after I was born a bill for a toilet flapper the whole thing a
The toilet flapper he was there for like an hour and a half and build out $75

(52:56):
but
So we I we kind of wanted to nod to him with the uniforms
Plus I wanted to do something different than what everyone else was doing t-shirts with the logo. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I'm still there. I mean for it's I've well not entirely so my
Regular field crew guys
I've given them everything over the years golf shirts, you know shirts that look like this with it with an embroidered logo on it

(53:21):
We've had zip-ups quarter zips
They just like hoodies and t-shirts and at the end of the day as long as there doesn't look ratty
I want them to be comfortable. So I I let it be I didn't push it hard for a service type shirt
But we've we've gone through a couple color schemes to try to you know sort out what what what logo fits us, right?

(53:42):
What with scheme fits us, but we're still my guys are either t-shirts or hoodies mostly
Yeah, now me and my construction manager. He's always in a golf shirt
It's almost kind of like separates them for management the customers know they're talking to the the guy who's in charge
He's in a golf shirt with an embroidered logo, you know, he he's driving a different truck
He's driving a pickup where the rest of guys are driving a van, you know, he's not carrying racks with ladders

(54:07):
So the branding actually also designates the hierarchy makes people feel like they're getting a supervisor with the with the with the team
So that that part of it helps. Yeah, I
I agree. I mean I tried to figure out something
It's kind of like a
Joint idea here to try to fit to try to separate ourselves from you know from the pack
We got to figure something out for summer though because these are not easy in the summer

(54:32):
Just a polo like a polo, but I guess but it looks better and why I
Why I say it too is like I've been to I've been to factories like
Manufacturing plans I specifically went to Ford when I had a Ford pickup truck
I went to Dearborn, Michigan
And I wanted to see how the truck was made because they still make the F-150s over there

(54:52):
So you went to toward the Ford factory just to see how the truck was made well
I family I have family out in Michigan and while I was
While I was there I had an F-150 and I was like I do want to see I'm not keeping him busy enough
No, this is this is before I even worked with you. Oh still and
And so I went to go see the factory the tour I went on it

(55:14):
You can take a tour of it and I'm looking around and like nobody and it looks so sloppy there and
Like I saw cut-off shorts cut-off t-shirts
Like nobody looked nobody was wearing anything Ford and I was like this is why
Everybody's buying Japanese vehicles
Okay, it's because if because I went I googled a YouTube

(55:37):
like a Toyota manufacturing plant and
Everybody is all the workers are in like
Shirt white collar shirts all in button-down shirts everything is organized now listen
They're making a video of how the factory looks and everything like that. So it's probably more proper
but still the mentality of

(55:58):
Everybody is dressed well dressed professionally and they take pride in everything that they wear says Toyota on it
You know if anybody tells you it doesn't matter if they're wrong. Oh, yeah, it's not percent first impressions matter to customers without a doubt
Yeah, look I iron an HVAC contractor and I'm not gonna name names because I saw a relationship with the guy and I think he runs a halfway

(56:21):
Decent business, but I had a service call just for a tune-up on my condensers like eight in the morning
I was the first stop the guy showed up in ripped clothes covered in dirt in Greece
Yeah, I know he that was his first stop, you know if he was like under it
You know he had service call under a boiler right before he came you get it
But this is how this with the guy grabbed out of the pile on the floor and put on to come to the first job of the day

(56:46):
And it was a service call job wasn't a dirty job. It's come, you know air out the condenser
Yeah, you know check check the check the levels. He showed me he pointed me out a guy
He pointed out a guy that job set the wrong he goes. Do you see that guy's toes sticking out of his shoes?
His toes sticking out his big toes
We actually use this guy's like a roofing savant, okay, and he shows up

(57:09):
He shows up I snapped a picture while I was talking to much for turning up his texting
I just snapped a picture of his just big toe just sticking out. I had to I needed it. I needed this picture
I'm like dude. Look at this. Look at this guy and he was the collar was so stretched down
Like he turned it like his nipple was sticking out of his collar. It was ridiculous, but he's such a good worker

(57:30):
But you're right. It doesn't matter because if you look like that
Customers are gonna be like don't bring that guy back to my house. You know what I mean?
And it looks bad on you, especially you as a GC. Uh-huh, and if I refer an
Electrician or whoever and if they don't if they're not wearing booties in the house or something we get kicked back from that
Uh-huh, a hundred percent. So for us, that's very important. Sure, you know quality control of the people in the house

(57:56):
you know
I've gotten feedback of people look. I don't care what your habits are whether you smoke whether you uh, you know
You know, you drink a lot ice tea and Gatorade or whatever it is
But if you leave that stuff laying around the job say people's house, that's not cool
No, we're actually talking about ice you can get a leash your area. I was in the army too by the way
So like that was a thing we would police your area that that's what you had. Oh, you were yeah, what branch army?

(58:18):
Just a regular army. Okay. Nice. Oh
How long ago was that?
I joined when I was 17. Did you really? Yeah, but I was only in for two years and then did national guard reserve stuff after that and
It's kind of carried through my daughter's presently in the army. My son
Just got out of the guard after six years. My brother was the army. My father was special forces Green Beret army

(58:40):
My nephew's now in the army. So, you know, we're not like career people were like we're in for 40 years
But everybody's dabbled in it and almost everybody in my family went to the same branch not because of any type of pressure
It's just right. I'll just happen. This is what it is. What is a lot of my family did the Air Force?
Couple Marines Marines and Air Force. It's all good stuff. Yeah, it's good

(59:01):
I mean it follows you around like what you learn there
It it kind of kicks your butt as you go through life
If you're the right type of person it builds character
Yeah, but I don't like when you call everybody in the trades or everyone in the first responders a hero either and I know this is like
I don't want to tell you agree, but like I was in the army
I was in a swatch of 10,000 people and it is a it is a slice of society

(59:24):
So you got jerks you got people who aren't so nice. Yeah, I'm trying not to use curse words
We but it's a slice of society, but for a majority of it. It does build your character
Yeah, it doesn't fix character defects, but it builds a good point. Yeah, it builds your character
You know every first responder isn't a hero. I think you have to do a heroic act to be a hero
Just just because you're riding the ambulance. You're not necessarily fair enough

(59:46):
But when you save somebody you are, you know, so I think the word hero gets diminished because it's thrown around too much
I have no idea how I got him to stop it. I'm sorry. I don't either. Hey listen. This is a free-range podcast
We don't stick to kind of off from uniforms to hating the word hero 100% we were talking about branding and here we are okay
You can regroup

(01:00:07):
No, that's that's so funny that we talk about that all the time like I've I've known guys who have driven ambulances
and they're the biggest scumbags in the world like and
And I don't want to go into detail, but I'll tell you all fair, but okay, you're right. You're right
I mean listen the work is hard. I get it, you know, and you're in some dangerous situations, but
They're not all heroes. We're not all heroes. I mean we work

(01:00:28):
Would the pay to protect the lives of a nation? Let's be honest
I do say that all the time that the plumber protects the health of a nation specifically courts plumbing well
I think so too, but it is true. By the way, you know how the black plague spread in
Europe they killed a third of Europe
I thought it was rats
Feces yeah, yeah, no sewage. No sewage no sanitation

(01:00:49):
No sanitation
I would just dump in buckets out in the street
No, you poop and rats plumbing plumbers actually save more lives than doctors
Because of the because of the health maintenance. I
Hope you I'm pretty good salesman. I don't know if that's true. Yeah, but I'm just my filtration systems
Yeah, yeah, but so when you took over

(01:01:13):
How important was branding how important was marketing how important was consistency or did that kind of have to take root
Or did you get into it? What do you mean consistency and what so okay? So as
minute
What I mean in consistency is like when I do reels for the courts plumbing
Yeah, the logo is in the corner the same corner of the real same size every time same coloring same

(01:01:40):
Same captioning animation everything same similar. So every time I put out a reel
It's consistent in its look. It's consistent in its color scheme everything
I mean that sounds like something they would teach you in a marketing school like it's I didn't go to school for it
No, but I mean it's but it makes sense to me. I didn't read that but when you're telling it to me

(01:02:00):
I go wow, I'm starting to think about my own stuff. Do am I that consistent? I don't know that I am
That's what I try to do and it could be because I don't I don't want to say OCD because I'm definitely not OCD
I mean it this it looks great back here, but if you look behind the set, it's it's just a mess
It's what you know, it's what we call it an artistic mindset. His life is a mess, but what you see is

(01:02:23):
You know, you're you're cruel you're cruel person
He gets these little comments that he knows that I'll just dig into my side and my kidney and just twist
And he can't do anything because we're on camera and we're on camera
Anyway, but that's that's what I mean with consistency as far as me with marketing
No, it's probably super important, but I got to be honest like I probably didn't pay enough attention to that

(01:02:46):
I think I think as my marketing happened. I was more about branding. I was more about a
A look in a field that I wanted to be perceived by customers
Yeah, right and I kind of approached my marketing
trying to separate myself from
The competition I hate even use the word competition
But people ask me all the time if I can't do a job

(01:03:07):
Do you can you recommend somebody who can and I don't know any of my competition and but I don't even refer to them as competition
I just don't know other guys that do what I do. Yeah, certainly not somebody I could put my name behind, right?
but I wanted to be perceived as
an
expert in my field a good communicator a likable individual
These were things that I wanted to promote and that's the the face of the company that I wanted people to see

(01:03:31):
So I was very focused on that
And I you know with the trial and error kind of found what works and we're still learning
We're still learning and trying new things all the time
So you're you you really dug into your image at first image was important. Yes
Well, it started because when we started getting good feedback from customers when I was growing the business
Nobody ever said hey norm. It's because you guys hang that cabinet better than anybody else

(01:03:55):
It wasn't because oh wow your crown molding comes together with no cock in it. Well it does but
That's that that's not what they were saying. They were saying I was so appreciative that you were so communicative
You told us every week what was gonna happen. You told us if you weren't coming you told us if you were coming late
You gave us a schedule you you never I say that my I always told people

(01:04:16):
I never want you to have to call me to say where am I or where's my guy or where's my plumber or where's my
Roofer because I'm going to tell you Monday. We're doing this Tuesday. There's inspection Wednesday
Nobody's gonna be at your job because we couldn't get a framing inspection till Thursday or
The plumbers come in Thursday, but I text you Thursday morning to say plumber had a service call

(01:04:37):
I had to go take care of a water heater failed. He's coming at 2
Yeah, so I think the comments we started getting was about communication about cleanliness
I had this guy Melvin who still happened to this day is my longest employee no matter what he's a very skilled carpenter
Brilliant spackler, so he's not a laborer, but this guy cleans like nobody's business
He works his way out of a house
scraping the carpet with with us with a spackle knife and vacuuming like

(01:05:02):
Even after he pulled up the drop cloths and you know shakes everything out outside
And then as we grew and had a little bit of money we started buying air scrubbers
We put a hepper filter air scrubber on every job now during demolition during drywall during everything we cleanliness is huge
So cleanliness and communication are the two things that we started stamping our brand
Yeah, I wanted to ring that bell for people because

(01:05:23):
The bar was set so low. You didn't have to be a superstar to shine. No, you're right. I just had to do the right thing
That's actually I'm glad I'm glad you said that I mean that's
We get all the time
Customers will call so I've ever talked to my office Nancy. Yeah. Yeah, so she'll that's my aunt I remember. Yeah, so she's

(01:05:44):
Customers will say all the time. I can't believe you called us back. You're the fifth plumber. We've called no one's calling us back
They're not showing up. They're not communicating and Nancy Nancy and this is not a bad habit
Over communicates which is fine and customers are even more appreciative of that than anything even preparing for this podcast

(01:06:04):
Nancy was constantly communicating. Yeah, we had to change some dates. We had some conflicts
But she was on top of it if she runs your business like that you're winning. That's huge for people
That's great. That's huge for people and because we hear that all the time
Let's contract or never showed up. They came here. They did this they never came back that can't find them
You gotta got it and that that seems to be like not as so much of a common thread, but we hear it a lot

(01:06:28):
You know, I think it happens a lot
But I also think it's also become people just buy into that perception now because they hear the story so much that now
They think it's true even if they've never experienced it
So they're expecting contractors not to return their calls. I mean it happens quite a bit, but I think the reputation is just
Out there. It's running wild. Do you have an office person or do you handle all that stuff?

(01:06:49):
I do I have a bookkeeper, but as far as answering the phones, it's me. Is it really? Yeah
Well, I don't see I'm not doing service calls. So I don't have to yeah, I'm returning voicemail
Fair enough. Okay. I'm returning emails. I'm not like grab. I mean I grab a call if I see it coming through
But my phone has been on silent since 2017. Good for you. Just I just can't have the ring right anymore

(01:07:10):
Tell me what that's like it allows for a little bit of peace
Holy smoke. I can't put my phone on silent. We want I went on a camping trip. Oh
This I wanted to quit like three weeks ago. I said I've had it
I'm gonna go work at Walmart and just great people like three hours ago
You want to say three with three weeks ago? It's like three hours three weeks ago like you're on a camping

(01:07:32):
So service you're right is totally different than what you do. Yeah, because the phone always has to be on
there's always something going on and we had I was in Gettysburg and this and we had just put in a like a pump the
sewer pump system and it failed on like late Saturday night and I was camping with some buddies and I drove
I'm like guys. We can't do what we had to plan tomorrow. I have to go back home. They're like, are you serious?

(01:07:55):
I'm like, I'll reimburse you the tickets we bought for the tour we're supposed to take
That's and I had to we had I had you have to eat it
You know what I mean, and I'm hoping we get to one point where I mean listen max I
Was out sick
For like almost for most of this past week, okay, you know, I at least I have somebody that can handle the field

(01:08:15):
so I watch a lot of
Entrepreneur YouTube channels and stuff and they always ask can your business function without you?
Mm-hmm. Thankfully it kind of can mm-hmm, you know, I would like to get to a point where it can't without him where he can
Start going out and running estimates where he's not under sinks all the time and then branching
I know what you're talking about

(01:08:35):
I think I remember the first year that I was able to go on vacation without shutting the company
Because in the beginning when I did one of first I didn't take vacations and then eventually when I could take a vacation
I only had one or two employees maybe at a time to max and I was like guys this week in July were shut down
Yeah, so, you know you get a week's vacation whether you like it or not
But I think there was a whole new breath of life into me when I could shut the company

(01:08:59):
I could go on vacation and somebody was running it. Yeah trustfully, you know in a trustful manner
It's like I would do and that's the way you'll you'll you'll love it when you get that's hard to find good help nowadays though
It really is everyone has a help wanted sign in their door. I don't know where all these people are getting their money from
Like where's it? Don't you guys need jobs?

(01:09:19):
We're I I would love to to two more guys in the field. I will take them right now
We actually so my uncle works for Dumont school system and they have a
Tradesmen program and there's one kid that signed up for it
Oh, and he signed up for plumbing so he's gonna actually apprentice with us. He's gonna start next week

(01:09:39):
Which I'm pumped about that's really cool because I would like my whole goal was
So there's a house that was for sale somebody bought it, but four or five years ago was for sale like right behind the shop
and I wanted to buy the house and
Bring guys from the Midwest who are looking for work and have them post up and train them

(01:10:00):
If you want to be a you should be a plumber will train you I don't care if you're green will train you
Instead of taking like the seasoned guys who are already in their habits
Jaded and jaded and pissed off and don't want to answer to a younger guy. Yeah
Yeah, I wanted to I want to I prefer to bring in someone who doesn't know anything
But who's eager to work and train him with the good courts plumbing habits that we want to that we want to you know

(01:10:23):
Promote in somebody and bring them up that way as opposed to bringing up a seasoned guy now
I'm not saying it's not beneficial to not bring in a to bring in a seasoned guy
Of course to have that knowledge and give it throw him in an extra truck and have him make money for you
But the whole thing is payroll right at the front and you said
The transition period
You have to take a step back financially and there's always that and then you get nervous with that you know what I mean?

(01:10:47):
So I'm at the point where we're ready to explode
But I'm nervous. Mm-hmm. It's a big step. My uncle had
Four trucks almost five trucks at one point and 2008 had hit
And he's still reeling from that like it wiped him out completely

(01:11:09):
Wiped him out completely down to one within a couple months
He had a bunch of real estate and the tenants just stopped paying they just stopped paying rent. That's a whole nother issue. Yeah, so he I
Didn't experience that
But coming into the business and learning from him. I'm kind of picking that up. You know what I mean

(01:11:30):
Yeah, so you're there's always apprehension and like nerves about growing and stuff
Which I'm pretty much at but you kind of got to bite the bullet and do it. It's scary. Yeah
It is and you know, I found the thing that I did
Right most of the time look I went through a lot of
hiring people that didn't work out

(01:11:50):
But the reason why I have such a good team now is the ones that did work out
I overpaid and and I overpaid people as a habit now. I guess people are gonna see my trick
So give you an example I had a guy come interview for me back in January
He was just applying for a laborer job and I had in my head what I wanted to pay for this job
I knew I was gonna pay X

(01:12:12):
I think I think at the time I was gonna pay like
$22 an hour and it sounds high for laborer, but when the market that we are now right now, it really is realistic
Yeah, you know for semi skilled laborer, you know and the kid came to me and he was you know
seemed like a really eager guy he's working for me now and
Interested in a job and I said so you know how much you got to make I know it sounds like a trick question

(01:12:33):
But you know, what do you need? What were you making before? He's like well?
I was making them, you know $19 an hour and I was hoping to get close to that if I could I said, okay
I'm gonna pay 22 and
I could have paid him 20 I could have paid him 1950. Yeah, I paid him 22 because here's how the here's how I did the math in my head
For that three bucks an hour that technically I could have got away with not paying the job was worth that

(01:12:57):
To me in my head what he was gonna do for the three bucks times 40 hours a week
120 plus payroll taxes for the extra $600 a month
This guy became the most loyal employee that I had because I gave him what I thought he was worth not what he was willing to accept
To settle yeah, I got you and it was just a different vibe now

(01:13:19):
I don't always do that from everybody on the get-go this particular guy had a good feeling on the get-go
And I thought he was undervaluing himself
He was undervaluing himself, but when I get somebody that I bring the door under like a probationary rate or
Somebody that I have no idea gonna work out when I when I realize oh wow. This is a keeper
I want to make it so anything on indeed or Craigslist does not appeal to them anymore

(01:13:43):
Right, so then I try to I try to give raises very quickly and sometimes in the first year multiple raises because I don't want to start
Anybody too high, but I also don't want to lose somebody who I found after what I've been through
When you find a good one, you know, that's both loyal honest trustworthy
Everybody Mike company

(01:14:09):
But that's that's kind of what's been successful for me as developing this this solid core of guys is I've been through a lot of jerks
I've been through people who said they could do it. I'm a carpenter, but I can't do crown molding
I'm a carpenter, but I didn't really do kitchen cabinets. So everybody could say they're a carpenter
But when I find somebody that really is one of the guys working for me young kid early 20s

(01:14:29):
He applied to be a carpenter and I was like, okay, you didn't have a ton of experience
He showed up at the job on the first day and I don't know if you guys would appreciate this
He brought his own glue and sandpaper in his pockets
Because when I told him to start mitering the door casing he would cut the joint
Sand it spot glue it join it and put it up. He was a carpenter

(01:14:54):
He wasn't a laborer. So I said, where did you learn this with his father and his brother were carpenters?
So but when you find somebody like that, yeah, you keep them
Yeah, and you and you compensate them
Even if it means taking a small hit in the beginning because that it's gonna pay you tenfold
Yeah, it's pretty soon your dispatch in this guy and he's making your money. Yeah, I agree
So that's it doesn't always work. Yeah, but over time it works

(01:15:18):
Yeah, well, I think it's I think it's funny that the the aspects the the characteristics that you highlighted
more so than being a skilled labor like a skilled worker is
like loyalty and and
Communication and honesty is because you find that more valuable than even a really high-end high-quality worker, right?

(01:15:39):
Because my goal, like I said, I keep going back to it, but you're hired max
No, no younger guys younger guys getting into the trades
I feel like in their mind if they don't have the skill if they don't if they feel like they don't have like they
They think that what they have to offer is their skill and it's that's not true
It's what you're saying is that if you're loyal if you're hardworking if you're willing to show up to the job if you're willing to

(01:16:04):
You know be clean and willing to be loyal to your employer
It's just as value if valuable if not more valuable than being a skilled labor character is so much more value to me
Yeah on time is late
I'm not gonna dock your pay for being on time
But my guys show up about 10 to 15 minutes early to the job and I don't pay him for that

(01:16:25):
Like they're gonna paid hourly, but they do that, but it also at the same time
They could take an hour they could take a half hour for lunch if they want to half of the guys sit down
And you sandwich in 10 minutes and jump right back into it not because I tell them to that's the culture that they they've they've come to
But at the same time if somebody says norm I gotta leave it 230 today my kids recital
I don't doctor pay right because they're giving me way more than I'm giving them they really are so I got a good core group

(01:16:51):
And it's about character. It's about integrity. It's about honesty
You know I told them one of my guys got into an accident one of the trucks once and he lied about it
And I had to pull up some camera footage to find out that he didn't get hit by accident
But this is a real guy that I really liked and respected and it was the first so I said to him
I kind of had a little blow-up. Is he a younger guy younger than me, but not really okay?

(01:17:15):
I
Smashed the truck when I found out standing it and he just to get his attention. I said see this I could fix this
This is metal. I could fix metal if I don't trust you anymore. I can't fix that if you lie to me
I can't fix that
So we're gonna get past this don't ever lie to me because whatever it is I could fix it

(01:17:36):
I could throw money at it. Am I gonna be happy? No, but I gotta be able to trust you
It's more important that you tell me the truth than if you break something and it's back to character. Yeah
Well, that's at the pool place. I learned a lot with that as an employee and we talked about this I
Went through a lot to listen. I'm gonna be honest with you
I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I'm gonna be honest with you

(01:18:00):
I'm gonna be honest with you
Poole guys are
First of all, they don't work all winter they all go on unemployment. Yeah, yeah, they're like the bottom of the trades, okay?
It's not the cream of the crop
A lot of drug addicts a lot of alcoholics a lot of a lot of just let so I don't know any so I

(01:18:20):
I would say think of a Rufus, but
Times 10
about. I would say pool like if you want to dip if you want to get your feet wet
into the trades which I did I was actually bartending and waiting tables
before I did the whole pool thing. Pools is the way to go because because it's

(01:18:45):
not difficult work you get all your certifications right there. You're still
recovered. It's okay. No it's... You need something to drink? I'm good. It's good to
dip your feet wet there because you're in you're tossed into the barrel with a
whole bunch of other schmucks. So with pools I mean I'm not gonna lie coming

(01:19:06):
out the restaurant and bartending business you know it's it's it's party
time like you know if you're you're working till 3-4 in the morning you're
sleeping till 4 o'clock in the afternoon so I had to make a transition and it
was it was a learning curve because I wasn't in I had I had a ways to go
luckily I was in a good company with the boss that cared he was willing to train

(01:19:28):
and I a lot of guys put him through hell you know what I mean. Okay. And it's I'm
glad I was able to get all that out there and kind of mature because to be
honest if my uncle had offered me this job 10 15 years ago I wouldn't have been
ready for it but if you can find young people to come up and step in and like

(01:19:53):
that kid with the with the sandpaper and glue in his pocket yeah I mean that's
huge and that's so hard to find yeah and but you gotta remember it's it's I had
to go through a lot of people till you get to that one you know yeah that's the
hard part about being the business owners there's a lot of failures in
employee and human resources because you don't know yeah it's really hard how

(01:20:15):
many guys you have working for you you said you have six trucks right yeah and
everybody has a truck so it's a I have six and six employees that are on the
road and then a back-of-the-house employee and then a bookkeeper so what
would you say your specialty is my company specialty yeah flooring cabinets no
I mean I think our specialty has become the big the big one the the full-blown

(01:20:38):
renovation we do a renovation that involves multiple trades better than
anybody else so if the issue or a full house got or an expansion or say you're
blowing out your existing dining room living room and kitchen and you want to
do an open floor plan and get rid of the beams and do the and whatever it's
going to require HVAC and you want skylights in the roof we may have to

(01:20:59):
expand the house and put some footings in and make a crawl space we do home
expansions I think better than most people let me ask you this do you put
jacuzzi tubs in we can but we don't you don't do you don't do that last and
last me to pull them out I'm pulling up on out every house flip we do every
McMansion that we do there's a jacuzzi tub with no access panel to the freakin

(01:21:20):
faucet that fails two years into it and I always want to I always want to ask a
contractor why don't you give us an access panel by the faucet there's an
access panel all the way on the other side of jacuzzi by the motor yeah by the
motor yeah but there's no way to change out the faucet which breaks down all the
time if they got marble tile on the wall on the tub deck that drives me up a wall

(01:21:41):
I don't blame me let me ask you another question shoot what's the minimum you'll
make a crawl space the minimum height height yeah I always try to go for 32
inches at the minimum you're hired man you're well I'm putting you on 30
giving you to every 32 inches from the bottom of the floor joist at the top of
the rat's I gotta send in Frankie to glue pipe sometime because I knew there was

(01:22:02):
confit in there the one he sent me into recently the one that I was in recently
was the sewage leak inside somebody's house remember they did a renovation and
there was a sewage water leaking into the into the crawl space and so the crawl
space starts off probably like 32 inches and it as you get closer to the
problem it goes like this yeah and it starts to why because of my view or because

(01:22:24):
of the actual crawl space all the financing and the floor and the floor
the way they pour the floor oh it was a nightmare it was this house is every I
feel so bad from 32 inches to this and I'm like yeah I can just get my head
into the area see I'd be claustrophobic I could I could never been one of those
that the tunnel rats in it that's not me I have I mean it takes I gotta do crawl

(01:22:48):
spaces every once in a while and I you have to get you have to gear yourself up
for it what's good what's like a what's a good horror story that you have
horror story or what's so what's like one of the worst experiences but when you
first started even in security like well it's in the security industry what was

(01:23:13):
retail security for people clarification I don't people where we were they came in
on this so was retail loss prevention security there were I don't know about
horror stories like shoplifters was always a handful because back then you
were allowed to catch shoplifters now everybody's so so I will be sued and
everything and every rights you know especially like California it's allowed

(01:23:33):
to steal but you know there was there was time where there's a lot of tackling
and fighting going on for shoplifters back in the day so that would that was
always interesting and then internal theft was a whole nother level because
most people don't realize is in retail the difference between the profit you're
supposed to have in the profit you have at the end of the year is called shrinkage
and the shrinkage is usually 30 to 40 percent external factors and 60 percent

(01:24:00):
internal theft so if you're sports authority and you have a 60 percent
percent you have a four well think about it shoplifters come into your store
once in a while and employees they're 40 hours a week and once they get over that
adrenaline like the first time you steal the first time that you grab that pager
back in the day or you grab that money and you put it in your pocket you're
freaking out you're your hair standing on the back of your head you might not

(01:24:22):
even sleep that night waiting for the phone to ring you're freaking out after
you do it two or three times if you become comfortable it becomes normal and
then you figure out how to do more and more and more so a good interrogator or
investigator could sit down with that person across the desk not knowing what
they've done my best success story I think one of the ones that got me noticed
yeah was I got a call I was living in Rhode Island at the time I had a call

(01:24:45):
from this way I said the word pager subliminally I guess I got a call from
somebody in Manchester Connecticut that they saw a kid steal a double-a battery
put it in his pocket or put in his pager that's what it was okay so I had to
respond it was still internal theft internal theft is internal theft so I
had to respond now I was trained to go through a process of the interview and

(01:25:07):
had to go through this routine that I would do same every time whether I knew
something or not at the end of the interview I had a $13,000 confession in
writing and seven other people implicated in a refund scam I told her like
$40,000 $50,000 from a battery from a battery lead it's because I did the job

(01:25:28):
consistently the same way every time that worked there somebody yeah so like a
cashier or like a clerk you know how so that so internal theft with 60% of most
retail companies losses that's why they paid professionals yeah to do that and
that's why we got trained to do what we do I could read somebody's neural
linguistics to see if they were creating a lie or telling the truth I could did

(01:25:49):
you learn that in the military no that was all through our retail military I
wasn't in military intelligence I always found that stuff fascinating reading
body language it's really cool it is cool we used to train on this exercise to
see if we were good I would tell you I say Phil write a number between three and
nine you know a piece of paper and stick it in your pocket and you go okay this
is what we said practice on each other and I go now I'm gonna ask you the

(01:26:11):
numbers from one to ten isn't in your pocket I'm gonna spill is the number one
in your pocket and I want you to say no every single time okay so now when I
would do that I know that one and two and ten aren't in your pocket because I
told you to write a number from three to nine so those are like my controls so if
I get good enough of reading your body language your blink rate your respiratory
rates when you itch when you scratch when you shift I'll know when I get Phil is

(01:26:34):
the number six in your pocket and you say no and I'll go right up to ten and
I'll go it was six and you pull out the piece of paper and hopefully it's six
that's how we used to practice because how good are you at that I used to be
really good I haven't done it a long time but I would love to try that it
was an interesting industry to get into because people take different postures

(01:26:57):
when they're protecting themselves yeah you know your stomach your abdomen is
your only soft spot in your body the rest you have skeleton so naturally when
we're uncomfortable or want to flee or want to protect ourselves protect our
abdomen so people that are usually lying usually have a knee pretty high or their
arms crossed they're protecting their abdomen I do it because I'm being
dishonest or you're overweight which is super uncomfortable sorry Frank what are

(01:27:22):
you barking at there's no one there anyway I'm getting off on a no I love
this is fascinating that was cool stuff that we got to do we got trained in we
got trained in how you know the runner stance you know so if somebody's you
know they're talking to you like this they want to get the hell out of there
like the way you sit and the way you react I see those police and then when
somebody goes then when somebody if I'm doing my job like that battery guy when

(01:27:44):
I start off talking to them they're in a protective posture they're in a closed
posture they don't want to talk to me they want to get out of there if I do my
job right at some point I'm gonna watch them go into physical submission at
some point the shoulders slump they've given up internally I've see it I see the
switch and now I know to ask what's called the assumptive question the
assumptive question always has to be able to be answered in the word no so I

(01:28:05):
would say to you Phil what was the first day you ever took money out of safe it
wasn't the very first day you started was it and you say no that no was your
confession because it's easier for the human body to say no than say yes so I
want to be able to present you with a question that you had to answer that
would admit guilt but you can answer with the word no so it was the most you

(01:28:26):
took in one day it wasn't as much as ten thousand dollars was it and you go no of
course not I didn't think so my investigation in the show that it was
that much so that that that was part of this training that we went through and
that's how I moved up the ranks don't ask me those questions a shoplifter catcher
to be in a vice president listen I you play poker right you said you play poker
you're unbelievable I mean what a skill to have with poker it has to come in

(01:28:51):
handy it helps it helps with reading a lot of neuro linguistics blink rates you
know body reaction also people especially if you play in tournaments that aren't
like really professional tournaments like I'll I play for his company around
here go Mike's poker tables yeah a lot of events at like firehouses for fund
raisers yeah so the group of people that are at these tournaments are regular
guys right you may and some people that are regulars on the circuit but very few

(01:29:14):
sharks so when people aren't protecting their tells like professional poker
players they shine you can see I use me and my buddies used to play poker for
15 years every Thursday and just hang out and play poker and then and then play
at those events and go to and you know and if I had those skills man because
I'm not a great poker player I've had some crazy games and you know I've

(01:29:38):
won I've won a lot of money but I've lost a lot of money too but what a skill to
have I mean we just we hit the casino on the way back I got destroyed he didn't
where'd you go which we stopped the one in Pennsylvania yeah nice little casino
clean small you know it's no AC I gotta be honest AC to me like I get anxiety
driving over that freeway at this point going to AC it's just too much it's just

(01:30:02):
too much like it's just so much and like you feel filthy when you're leaving you
know whether you're up or down you just feel like like feel dirty yeah yeah
the little casino is on PA where you drive up and they're on beautiful
properties I mean we drove up what was it Hollywood casino Hollywood Hollywood
so yeah they're great they're tiny they're small the the the dealers are nice

(01:30:26):
they're friendly the people are nice and friendly in the one I think Mount
Arias the one I close here yeah well the one we went to was on this beautiful
field and like in between these hills is gorgeous and you go to AC and you're
overlooking like the slums yeah you know even the beach is gross yeah yeah it's
true yeah it's just I sat down at a poker table at an AC once when I was

(01:30:49):
feeling when I was feeling good and I'm not a good poker player but the animals
that sit down at those tables they get so angry like it's their life their life
depends on these games yeah and I'm just trying to like have a good time like I'm
willing to lose a certain amount of money and I know that I'm probably gonna
lose it because everybody here is better than me but like you you you take the

(01:31:10):
wrong hand or you make the wrong call or whatever it is like if you're just
hand there to have a good time it will eat you alive well it's funny I don't
play poker casinos anymore no well I don't enjoy the grind oh yeah because to
really make money at poker which I probably could if I sat there for five
hours often is it's a grind whereas if I go to casino which isn't often I want

(01:31:32):
the adrenaline rush of a big jackpot I want to get a royal flushing in three
card poker I want to hit something on a slot you know that that's what I if I do
go to a casino I rather risk some money agreed for the big way me grinding out
to win 400 bucks over six hours yeah doesn't do it for me and and but your
point that's why I don't play blackjack you know I'm sure a lot of everybody plays

(01:31:54):
backjack but it's the only poker game or table game that someone else
cares what you do yeah like if I'm playing roulette nobody cares what number I
put my thing on if I'm playing three-card poker no one cares if I double
my batter or play the bonus or not play the bonus they don't care what I do but
if you play blackjack and you hit when you're not supposed to hit because you
want to gamble they act like you ruin the science and let it ride you ever played

(01:32:16):
let it ride let it right I saw the first time I played let it ride ever I sat
down my me and my buddy went to AC we were going to a like an outdoor outdoor
equipment convention or whatever and like let's stop at AC I was like all
right so he goes I'm he goes I'm gonna go down the table I'm gonna play let it
ride I was like I never played he's like just check it out I was like okay I'll

(01:32:39):
be right down I gotta use a bathroom I'll be right down so he's playing he's
already like 150 down I sit down no idea what to play right and I and apparently
I sat to the right of one guy and I stole his straight and I I a straight yes
it was like it was like 30 30 one something like that this dude I thought

(01:33:03):
he was going to cause the biggest scene like he lost his he lost his mind he was
so pissed off just so stupid like he could have moved over if you know there's
an empty seat next to you and you're getting dealt first and you're
superstitious that you want to be the first guy out yeah you move yeah you
know somebody's gonna sit there yeah I mean his he and you I to him I took his

(01:33:25):
cards it's the same thing in blackjack too yeah but I like blackjack because
it's quick yeah it's quick it's a fun game I just don't like to deal with
somebody telling me what to do because even in poker so like I go to Texas
hold them tournaments all the time everyone's while I'll play 7 deuce 7
deuce is the worst poker hand but if I got a feeling or whatever and I because
you know you're not supposed to play because the odds are it's gonna be crap

(01:33:48):
but once in a while the board comes out all crap yeah and so if I just have a
feeling in the in the aunties low the blinds low I'll play around with that
you have no idea how mad people get you end up having a show down and you
stayed in on a preflop raise with seven deuce the lose their salute excuse my
language I've gotten into fights over that we used to play at the pool place

(01:34:08):
all the time was big because there was like 30 dudes that worked at this it's a
big company all right and we used to sit up every Wednesday and Thursday no for
the pool for my buddies was Thursday for the pool place was like Tuesday or
Friday or something like that and I wasn't the greatest when I started
there greatest card player and I would I would play like 6-3 off-suit and Tommy

(01:34:30):
would and I would like get like three of a kind and he's holding he's holding
two Kings and he would be so angry and I'm like bro that's how that's like
that's what this is that's how you play like you know you win some you lose some
like shut up you're you know your your pocket rockets aren't gonna always get
you something you know I mean everybody if then I love observing people at Texas

(01:34:53):
hold them because I don't get bad because I love watching they blame the
other guys cards every time they get every time I can't believe that guy was
in there with Queen 10 I preflop raised on my name and they should have folded so
like if everybody followed the mechanics then it wouldn't be gambling exactly
exactly what are we doing here what are we doing here so I never blame somebody

(01:35:15):
you know are you happy when you lose no but no but I I don't hold that against
anybody like look you want to stay in with six three off-suit and you were
hoping to catch a four five seven right for you right and it paid off yeah you
know my ace King isn't always gonna stand up did the have you noticed that
like the body language reading comes in handy as your company's growing and you

(01:35:39):
got employees and stuff it does I think I do they know that you can that that
no do they know that you can read their mind but I'll tell you what a skill I
learned in life after learning that skill was to ignore my skills sometimes
you know you don't want to you don't want to do that to your wife yeah you
don't want to do it to your girlfriend yeah you'd like look if it's crisis mode

(01:36:00):
then it comes in handy like you need to find something out but look we all by
human nature fib minimize exaggerate it's just the way we communicate right we
like we want to be popular we're not doing it be malicious it's not always
because you stole or cheated or did something bad so if you over tune into
that you'll ruin your own life yeah so I had to learn to just kind of like tune
it out so if I'm in a friendly poker game with a bunch of buddies sometimes

(01:36:22):
I'm just looking at my cards I'm not hard watching all six guys and seeing what
their tells are sometimes I'm just playing yeah because you could you can
get overstimulated with no one to write information right I hear you you got to
keep it fun yeah and you got it when you go you have to say I'm playing with this
amount and that's it not everybody has that philosophy but it's a good one to

(01:36:44):
have you gotta think of it as your entertainment I'm going out to dinner I'm
going to a movie I was playing I'm blowing 200 bucks I'm willing to lose this
yeah this is fair that so he's doing a water heater tomorrow okay and I go I
go do it let's let he go I go let's go out to Mount area this weekend because I
gotta go out to PA anyway okay I was like you know what why don't you cut me on
that water heater for 300 bucks and I'll take the 300 bucks and you know you let

(01:37:07):
me play at the casino he goes all right I'll give you the 300 bucks but anything
you win is mine wait a second how does that work that doesn't work like that
so so I'll give you the 300 I'll give you $300 you can have a good time if you
lose it you lose it I don't want it back but whatever you win is mine so the
reason why I even said that is because my dad he's got a very he's got a friend

(01:37:31):
who's he's got a he's got a very wealthy friend who used to fly him and his
friends out to like Vegas or you know AC or two different places used to be he
used to be into gambling he's not so much in here yeah and so he would fly his
friends out and he used to give his friends a certain amount of money he
goes here's you know ten thousand dollars to his friends you play it you

(01:37:54):
enjoy yourself so much money whatever you play whatever you play with it's
yours I don't care if you lose it or not have a good time with it whatever you
win is mine though see I don't think it works like that yeah it's a free trip
you get to have fun you get whatever I mean something else out of it yeah a
free trip okay you know I've I've I've staked people I'm like when Betz like I

(01:38:17):
like a friend of mine she was in Vegas and I Venmota 500 bucks I want you go to
this $10 double diamond slap machine and I want you to feed that 500 into it and
I want you to play it with two credit bets I said it's on me have fun whatever
if you hit whatever you hit by the time you're done with that with that 500 you
know going through those spins we split yeah and you know she didn't win but she

(01:38:40):
didn't but the deal was we split there was the I mean people have said people
have thrown me a hundred bucks they say put this on like black 22 or whatever
I'm really yeah I know but like I'm I'm not gonna keep their winnings well that
that's a real specific they weren't sharing it with you yes well we've

(01:39:00):
really got off topic here that's right I think you know what we're kind of
wrapping up anyway let's let's wrap it up Norm thanks for being here there's a
lot of fun very cool guys I hope I hope I'm invited back absolutely gotta close
off on the tangents no I what I that's what people find interesting you know
they don't we were working this out like there's a lot there's a lot of

(01:39:22):
podcasts and YouTube shows that are like we do this and we put these two by fours
here and like that's that's great for guys who are in contracting but you want
to reach a lord people find stories interesting just to be a sing and stuff
now you did great I had a blast I enjoyed it thank you guys and I learned a
lot from you too especially I'm gonna have to go back to figure out exactly

(01:39:44):
what you said but the cleanliness and the and the communication huge is key my
two biggest yeah huge well listen man thanks for being here you're welcome
back anytime can't wait guys thanks for watching Plumb Bumps podcast like
subscribe share get the name out there please subscribe and share we want views

(01:40:05):
man we got good quality content coming out we have a lot of good guests coming
on so make sure you stay tuned and catch us here next week to feed Frankie we
need to feed Frankie yes she's wasting away to nothing no but catch us here
next week and thanks for watching