January 27, 2025 • 33 mins
Understanding the nuances of project management is crucial to achieving success today. This episode dives into the new PURE Certification program, highlighting the importance of real-world application in varied environments, taught by instructors that work as project management professionals.
In this interview we discussed:
- Updates on PMBOK 8 and its implications for project managers
- Discussion on the challenges and strengths of Agile methodology
- Little's Law
- Introduction of the PURE Project Manager credential
- Overview of the structure and offerings of the new certification
- Ability to earn PDUs incrementally throughout the program, which can be used for existing certifications
- Highlighting the accessibility and cost-effectiveness of the certification process
- Commitment to practical education without unnecessary theory and fluff
- Insights from experienced project managers on various topics
This was another great interview with Joseph Phillips, and I am excited about getting my PURE certification this year!
If you are interested in learning more about this certification, check it out here.
Links:
PM-Mastery Links:
- For a full podcast episode list, visit here: PM-Mastery Podcast Episodes.
- For a full list of blog posts, go here: PM-Mastery Blog Posts
- Become a PURE PM: https://pm-mastery.com/pure
- Check out Instructing.com for all your PM course needs: https://www.instructing.com/?ref=bd5e5c
- Get your free PDU Tracker here: https://pm-mastery.com/resource_links/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro/Outro (00:12):
Welcome to the PM Mastery Podcast.
This podcast is all abouthelping you master your project
management skills by sharingtips, tricks, tools and training
to get you to the next level,while sharing the stories of
other project managers on theirjourney in project management.
And now here's your host, waltSparling.
Walt Sparling (00:36):
Welcome everybody to the current edition of PM
Mastery, and today I am honoredto have with us Joseph Phillip.
Once again, welcome to the show, joseph.
Thanks, walt.
Happy to be here.
I know I was thinking back andI'm like, oh, it's been a while
since you've been on the podcast.
And I'm like, no, you haven't.
You were on it last month whenwe did the top five most popular
(00:57):
episodes, right, and thenbefore that we did the book
review.
I believe it was the CAPM book.
That was like last year.
Joseph Phillips (01:08):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's been a little while.
Walt Sparling (01:10):
Yeah, so what else has been going on?
What's going on in your world?
Joseph Phillips (01:14):
Well, we have been just a flurry of activity
with, you know, pmbok 8.
So we've been reviewing thatand looking at updates for
what's going to be big changeswhenever that's released.
Of course, the exam contentoutline has not changed.
I've been getting a lot ofquestions about that, you know,
with PMBOK 8.
(01:36):
There's always been thismisconception, especially the
last few years, that there's acorrelation between the PMBOK
and the PMP or the CAPM, andthat's not true.
The exam, like the PMP forexample, is based on, I think,
16 different books, not just thePMBOK guide, but there is an
(01:59):
expectation of terminology andthe processes like there's 40
processes in PMBOK 8, I believe.
So there will be some changes,I'm sure, coming on the exam.
None of that has been announcedyet from PMI but we're just in
the review stage of PMBOK 8 andlooking to see what you know
what's PMI's vision is for newprocesses, new approaches.
(02:26):
I mean project management isproject management.
It's always been my thing, soI've been immersed in that.
And then, of course, workingtowards the updated PMI ACP.
You know that exam changedrecently, so I've been reviewing
that content and going to beupdating some materials for that
exam.
But again, agile is agile, so Idon't get too caught up in.
(02:50):
Oh, there's a new addition tothis or that.
At the heart of it it's stillagile, it's still Scrum, it's
still XP, it's still projectmanagement.
I mean there was no PMBOK guywhen they built the Eiffel Tower
or the pyramids, or thepyramids or the pyramids, or the
Rockefeller Center or theEmpire State Building or what
have you.
So I don't get too emotionalabout the PMBOK guide.
Walt Sparling (03:17):
It's interesting.
This is not PMI, but I haven'tdone a lot with Agile and we've
talked about this in the past,so that's one of my things this
year is to get involved more inthat.
So I'm actually taking yourprofessional Scrum Master course
and working on getting thatcertification behind me this
year, so help me get a littlebit more and see how I can maybe
(03:39):
relate the Agile to some ofwhat I do, sure.
Joseph Phillips (03:43):
Agile is not a panacea.
I think it's become kind of ahype that, oh, it's Agile to
some of what I do.
Sure, agile is not a panacea.
I think it's become kind of ahype that, oh, it's Agile, it's
clever and fun.
But Agile does not work foreverything.
There are some things that youhave to predict, like in your
industry with construction.
I mean, you have to know whatthe building's going to look
like before you start.
Agile is more suited for youknow brain work, you know
(04:07):
writing, coding, creative typework or, of course, predictive
is anything more industrial.
But I think there are a lot ofthings from Agile that we can
take and put into a predictiveenvironment to basically realize
business value sooner and tostreamline some repetition and
(04:32):
to have a more iterativeapproach to some of our work.
Walt Sparling (04:38):
Now I'm thinking design.
Joseph Phillips (04:39):
design for the could be agile Right yeah, or
even taking things like theretrospective or looking at time
blocks like three weeks or fourweeks of effort.
What are we going to get donein the next four weeks?
To take chunks of work and I'malways a big fan of smaller
chunks of work that it's easierto manage, easier to see where
(05:03):
we're going to be in four weeksas opposed to four months.
It's not always realistic, butwhenever possible I like to work
in smaller chunks of work.
You may be familiar withLittle's Law that basically, the
longer the queue, the longerit's going to take.
So if you have fewer people inline, the line moves pretty
quick.
Intro/Outro (05:23):
You got a lot of people in line.
Joseph Phillips (05:24):
It just takes longer, like at the DMV where
you get your driver's licensebut little is all so just kind
of that, you know, kind of makessense when you think about it.
The longer the line, the longerit'll take.
But the shorter the line, youknow you can work faster in
smaller iterations and knockthings out.
Kind of ties into the Pomodorotechnique.
(05:45):
I'm a big fan of where you andI have talked about that,
working in small chunks, like 25minutes.
There you go exactly, yeah,mine's in the other, but to work
in small chunks of time, I'm abig fan of the Pomodoro
technique.
Walt Sparling (06:03):
It's just on a bigger scale, is what we see in
Agile.
So good to have you on Good tocatch up a little bit.
I believe you have anotherproject that you're working on.
Joseph Phillips (06:14):
I do.
So this is big news.
This has been a huge endeavor,so we're going to break the news
here.
I've not really told a wholelot of people about it.
Of course, when this comes out,our program will be going live,
and that is the Pure ProjectManager.
This is a new credential thatfocuses on the core, real-world,
(06:38):
applicable skills of projectmanagement.
No theory, no fluff, no flow,no earned value management, but
the idea being, as you know,I've been teaching to P&P for
over 20 years and consulted andled projects, and there is a
(06:59):
real dichotomy between theory,classroom book and actual
application.
And so over the last few yearsI've developed this framework
called PURE, and PURE meansProjects Under Realistic
Expectations, with the ideabeing that we as an industry, a
(07:25):
project management community,maybe not an industry we have to
have an understanding thatthere is no formula for project
management that works everywhere.
You cannot take the PMBOK guideand just say I'm going to do
everything in here, my projectwill be successful.
That is a guide to thegenerally accepted practices of
(07:46):
project management.
So Pure begins with thisacknowledgement that it's not a
one-size-fits-all solution.
So that's a realisticexpectation.
And then we have a realisticexpectations in different
industries, differentexpectations, compliance,
regulations, laws and so on.
So we know, in constructionversus healthcare, versus IT,
(08:09):
versus banking, all of thosehave different compliance.
You have safety, you havepatient care, you have financial
and all sorts of laws andcompliance that are unique to
that industry, that basicallyare requirements that are
constraints on what you may doin that industry.
So we have to have realisticexpectations there.
(08:30):
Then we have to have realisticexpectations in the organization
.
So you may have two companiesin construction, but they have a
different way of doing business.
So the standards, the culture,the formalities are different in
each organization as well.
(08:51):
So we have this broad umbrellaof pure that becomes more and
more narrow to the individualorganization and projects
operating in that organization.
So it's projects underrealistic expectations that we
have to have a buy-in to thatconcept that there is not a
universal approach.
(09:12):
Now, having said that, what thecourse is?
I've partnered with over 20project management experts Walt,
you are one of those people andwe have created a series of
courses that equates to 60 hoursof project management education
no theory, but how projectsactually work.
(09:34):
So no fluff, no aspirationalgoals, real world expectations
of how projects work in thesedifferent environments.
So there are.
We begin with that concept of ajust having an acknowledgement
that what works in oneenvironment will not work in
every environment.
(09:56):
And then the program there is ahost of classes they range from
an hour up to five or six hoursthat you complete at your pace
and at the end of completing allof the courses, the total of 60
hours of training you must passa 100-question exam.
(10:17):
Pass a 100-question exam, youhave 90 minutes to do so and
then you'll receive a badge fromCredly that says you are a pure
project manager.
So you're authenticated, you'reverified and you can add that
to your LinkedIn, to your resume, to your email and so on.
And then, of course, it's 60hours, which the goal there is
(10:40):
twofold is one to give a broadbase of knowledge of real-world
application and then two tosupport, if you have PMI
credentials, that you'll get 60PDUs for your ongoing education
requirements with PMI, educationrequirements with PMI.
(11:04):
So it is a massive program,it's a massive endeavor.
Came up with this framework overthe last seven years.
You'll see on our website,puremanagementalliancecom, that
it's kind of a temple of projectmanagement that has a
foundation all the way up to thepinnacle of it, which is
business value, that everythinghas to support business value
(11:25):
and that if any one of thosecomponents in the temple and the
framework were to be faulty,your project's going to fail in
some aspect.
So that's pure.
That's been consuming my lifefor the last year, on top of
everything else getting thisvision to come to life.
So it's very exciting.
(11:45):
It's a totally different way oftraining and learning project
management.
So the folks that are involved,the people from all over the
world we have PhDs, we havepeople that are in the trenches,
we have folks that have donetraining and some that I've
never taught before, but they'rejust good communicators and
(12:07):
they're really doing projectmanagement.
That it's not a slide deck andthey're just reading the slides.
These are folks that areactually doing project
management and what's worked forthem in their career and how
other PMs can apply that intheir lives and in their career.
Walt Sparling (12:23):
So I, like you said, I I'm involved in this as
well and it has been aninteresting journey to get
through and it is a lot of work.
It was a lot of work.
It's still happening but, um,you know, as as we move forward,
but it was fun.
And I do know probably prettywell about a third of the people
(12:44):
that are the instructors.
The other people I know kind ofsort of some I've met for the
first time and I also know thatsome of the instructors over the
next I would say at least thenext month or so are going to be
coming on the podcast andthey're going to specifically
talk about their courses andthen I assume, over time, more
(13:09):
will come on as well.
So you're going to be hearing alot about this, mingled in
between other podcast episodes.
So I'll probably do a lot morereleases for the listeners.
Instead of one every two weeks,which has kind of been my
average there might be for awhile, there might be two a week
just to kind of get everybody'sepisodes out there and get
(13:29):
everybody familiar with what'sgoing on and get a feel for what
this, this certificate, is like.
So I'm I'm pretty excited aboutgetting it out there.
Joseph Phillips (13:41):
I think it's a great opportunity for learners
and project managers on a coupleof different fronts.
One, there is no barrier toentry.
That you complete the courseand pass the exam.
That's all it takes.
It's a huge.
It's a huge program.
Those 60 hours is no joke.
Walt Sparling (14:03):
Yeah, and I've run that through my head and
I've talked with some otherfolks about, okay, allocating 60
hours and you know me, I have afull-time job.
Most almost everybody does hasa full-time job.
They already have others.
I'm working on anothercertificate or certification.
I'm buying a house right now.
I've got my podcast, my blog,other things that I'm doing.
(14:25):
So, yeah, I'm trying to figureout how am I going to get this.
You know I will get it done.
It's just like how long will ittake?
Yeah, you got to set to it.
It's just like when I studiedfor and passed the PMP, I had a
plan and then I just worked thatplan until I got through it and
completed it.
Joseph Phillips (14:43):
Absolutely.
It's definitely going to takesome dedication and some
resiliency, which the programitself is part of being a
project manager, of seeingthings through the program, you
have one year to complete the 60hours and pass the exam, so
it's not like you have to do itin a month.
(15:03):
You could do a couple hours aweek and have a pretty good
grasp, you know by month eightor so, of being prepared.
The final exam as well is alittle different than other
credentials, a little differentthan other credentials we won't
(15:26):
mention any names, but you takethe exam online.
It is a self-paced, aself-guided exam of 100
questions and you have 90minutes to answer all the
questions.
Any blank questions are wrong.
And so in our focus group, someof the feedback we had was well,
won't people use Google or abook to look it up?
And my response is absolutely,yeah, absolutely, because if I'm
(15:48):
in a project that I don't knowwhat to do, I'm going to use
Google and look it up.
So that's part of using somecritical thinking, which is one
of the components of Pure is touse your resources to answer
questions or figure things out.
The goal is to not answer thequestion.
The goal is to support businessvalue.
So the other part of that,though, is you only have 90
(16:09):
minutes to answer 100 questions,so if you are whirling through
you know Google looking for theanswer I have to read articles
and so on you're going to runout of time, and you run out of
time blank answers are wrong.
Walt Sparling (16:23):
I just want to add something to that.
Not only do you.
What you just said about thetime is that you don't get to
the final until you've taken the90, 60.
Yeah, exactly.
Joseph Phillips (16:34):
And all of the final is based on all of the
individual courses and at theend of each course there is an
exam, little quiz that will testyou on the content of that
course.
So you'll have a good idea ontopics that you need to spend
more time on or seek clarity on.
The other part of it beingself-led and online is, I think
(17:00):
sometimes there is undue stress,like the stress of going to the
testing center and you got totake everything out of your
pocket and get the wand over youor having a proctor stare at
you.
It adds a lot of anxiety and Ithink a lot of adults get test
anxiety where they are good PMsand they know how to do project
(17:22):
management and they know thematerial.
But that test anxiety comes inand really robs them and cheats
them of all the work thatthey've done.
And so what's the goal?
To pass a test or to be abetter project manager, To be a
better PM?
So that was part of myphilosophy with why I've elected
to do it online as part of theprogram, without going to a
(17:44):
testing center.
And there is, you know, alittle bit of ethics that are in
there as well.
We have it's not the same 100questions every time.
There's a pool of questionsthat will rotate around and then
, based on the analytics for howpeople answer test questions,
we'll determine is that a poortest question because everybody
(18:05):
gets it right or everybodymisses that one.
So it will give us some insight.
So over the program we'll beable to add and delete questions
just based on the performanceinside of the exam.
So it will be evolving over thenext two, three years as the
amount of test takers begin toaccumulate.
(18:28):
We have a good pool to see howpeople are answering individual
questions.
Walt Sparling (18:33):
So a couple of questions that I have, and some
of these I already know theanswers to, but I want to put it
out.
There is there are 60 hours.
How many actual courses arethere in that 60 hours?
Joseph Phillips (18:47):
Oh, that's a great question.
I think there are about 32individual classes.
Like I said, some are an hour,some are four or five hours, so
it just depends on the topic andyou can take them in any order
that you wish.
They will be presented in anorder that we feel is best, but
(19:12):
you could pause this guy and gostart another one, or vice versa
.
I think try to make thelearning into smaller chunks so
it's easier to get throughsmaller portions into bite size.
And they're all on differenttopics.
I mean there's a little bit ofoverlap just due to the nature.
Walt Sparling (19:32):
For example, we have courses on emotional
intelligence, but we also have acourse on personality types, so
those two are relevant, and Ido know because there's two
other individuals that I knowthat are doing courses and one
in the beginning we actuallycompared our course outlines to
make sure we didn't have a lotof overlap.
(19:52):
Ours are on communication, butthat individual took a different
dove, deeper into some thingsthan I did.
So it's it's complimentary.
So in my mind I'm probablygoing to go through and pick out
any ones that are kind ofsimilar and batch those, do
those all together.
So I kind of all of that.
So I do like the ability totake them out of order.
Joseph Phillips (20:16):
And we have some.
There's a couple that are, Ithink, pretty unique, that you
probably won't see in any otherprogram.
One is well, I do a course oncritical thinking, which is one
of our main pieces of ourframework about how to.
What is critical thinking?
How does it work in projectmanagement?
Some logic, and there's somedifferent puzzles in the course.
(20:37):
Just to get thinking.
A big part of project managementis critical thinking, and then
the other side of the coin, ofcourse, is the emotional
intelligence.
And then there's a reallyinteresting course about being a
project manager in a startupenvironment, and this is from an
individual that's had a lot ofexperience coaching and
(20:58):
consulting PM for startup work.
But it's applicable to evenlarge organizations because the
project itself can be looked atalmost like a little business
with ROI, business value, timeand resource or labor costs.
So that's a shorter course, butI think it's relevant.
There's lots of little nuggetsin there, even if you're in a
(21:20):
large organization.
And then we have a really goodcourse by Dr Chambers, a dear
friend, and he does the courseon customer service.
The idea of servant leadershipand really being just a good
person goes a long way, andhaving a good attitude goes a
(21:44):
long way in project management.
So I think that actually I justwatched Jim Chambers' course, I
just watched his course.
Yeah, it's very good.
I'm really excited.
Walt Sparling (21:55):
It's one of the things that I.
I haven't been able to take anyof the courses yet, but I have
seen a lot of the introductoryvideos and there are some ones
there that I'm really lookingforward to His being one.
I just commented on that, Ithink, this morning.
That's a great one.
So there's AI, there'scommunication, there's risk,
(22:17):
there's stakeholder management.
I mean, there's a ton ofinformation out there and, like
you said, it's from PMs that areactually doing it, not not.
You need to consider this stuffif you come into it.
Well, hey, I do this stuff andthis is how.
Joseph Phillips (22:33):
Yeah.
So I've asked people like whenyou and I, you know, first
talking about you doing yourcourses, I said, okay, what is
your biggest strength?
Or, if you were, we have acourse on hacking your project.
So like some tips and tricks tohack your project.
So each individual when wetalked about doing a class was,
(22:55):
okay, what do you consider anarea of project management
that's helped you in your careerthat not everybody's doing, and
how can we package that soother people can do what you do?
And that was a conversation wehad over and over on all these
different topics as we took theframework and presented that to
our group of trainers andprofessionals.
Walt Sparling (23:19):
So the other thing that I think is really
good is this course, or thiscertification includes a bunch
of courses, but you can takethem in any order and they each
have their own PDU value.
So in theory, you could take 15of the courses and get whatever
(23:42):
those PDDRs and you can claimthem.
If it's your turn to do yourrenewal, you can claim those and
they're actual, available toyou.
You don't have to wait till theend of the final to claim those
.
The other is the cost.
Joseph Phillips (24:00):
Yeah, let me talk about both of those things
not to interrupt you, but I didbecause I'm really proud of that
idea of getting your PDUs inmotion.
If we go to an agileenvironment, we want incremental
deliverables, so I getincremental value as the
project's in motion.
So you, as you work your waythrough the course, every course
(24:22):
, you'll get a certificate andthat has the PDU distribution on
the certificate and you can goout and enter those PDUs even
though you're not done with theentire program.
So the business value, which isour primary focus of Pure the
business value is you get thePDUs as you move through the
course, so you get incrementalvalue.
(24:43):
You get the PDUs as you movethrough the course, so you get
incremental value.
And then the ultimate value isyou get a new credential, the
Pure Project Manager, which istrademarked, and we have the
partnership with Credly.
So you'll get the blockchainverified badge and certificate
that anyone can click on and itshows that you actually did pass
the exam.
It's not just a piece ofartwork that anybody can copy
(25:06):
and paste and throw out there.
The same with the individualcourses you don't get a Credly
badge for each course, but thecertificate has a unique code on
it that's tied to yourtranscript on our server.
So you get value as you movethrough the course and then
ultimately the final deliverableis the credential that then you
(25:28):
can claim the pure projectmanager.
Oh, and then the price.
So we again focus group.
We talked and considered a lotover the past year about where
this was going to land on price.
So it came on the result of$399.
So you consider 60 hours ofeducation and a new credential
(25:49):
$399.
And I know that is less thanother credentials in the
marketplace and it may be morethan some other credentials, but
I think the value propositionfor the amount of education you
get, the amount of PDUs you getat $399, is pretty tremendous.
So, whatever that comes out toan hour, what is that like?
(26:10):
$6 and some change in an hourfor your PDUs.
Plus you're working towards anew credential.
You can be one of the firstpeople to have this credential
if you sign up atpuremanagementalliancecom.
Walt Sparling (26:24):
It's a one-stop shop.
So you sign up, you starttaking your courses, you start
getting your PDUs when it's timeto take the test.
It's not a separate fee, it'snot a separate sit down.
You just, when you're done, youroll in and take your test.
Joseph Phillips (26:38):
Exactly, that was one of the challenges.
Obviously, my business has.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
You know, we generate revenuefrom training the PMP exam or
the ACP or CSM, and then theother side of that people have
to pay for.
Then now you got to pay for thetesting fee alone.
(26:59):
So this is all together it's$3.99 for both.
You get all the education, the60 hours and the exam.
You don't have to pay twodifferent fees.
That's right.
Walt Sparling (27:10):
What about continuing?
You know we're talking aboutPDUs.
You're earning PDUs, but willthere be a requirement at some
point where, in order tomaintain your certification, you
have to take refresher coursesor get other PDUs Right now as
we are launching, and you knowwe're pretty grassroots here.
Joseph Phillips (27:33):
So right now I'm not making or we are not
making that a requirement.
If down the road, like, let'ssay, two, three years from now,
we need to update content and wewant to do a continuing ed to
maintain that credential, I'llbe fair or we will be fair,
meaning that anyone before thatdecision they're grandfathered
(27:56):
in.
I'm not going to make peoplelike oh, you earned it, now
we're going to change the ruleswhen we, if we change the rules
for continuing ed requirementslike PDUs, for pure whatever
that may be, ceus or whateverwhen that decision is made, that
would be for individuals fromthat point forward.
So anyone that goes into theprogram now you're going to be a
(28:19):
pure PM forever and ever,without any additional
educational requirements.
If that changes, thoseindividuals will be
grandfathered in.
We won't make people like nowyou got to pay again and take it
again or get more training orwhatnot, so at some point we may
grow into that.
Right now we're not making thata requirement.
Walt Sparling (28:42):
Now, if someone goes through the course and
there's so much good informationbecause I know some of these
folks and I've seen littletidbits of their courses I sign
up, I take the course, I pass, Iget my credential and I'm
working on a job and I don'tdeal with I don't know, let's
(29:02):
say risk much, but I know I tooka course on risk in this
program.
Will I have access to go backand look at that again and watch
the video?
Joseph Phillips (29:13):
You have one year access to the program.
So that's an interestingquestion.
There will be deliverables thatwill be yours to keep, like
slides and so on, but the actualvideo content?
You have one year to completethe program and then you are
done.
So, to answer your question, no, there won't be a lifetime
(29:38):
access, or anything like that,to the videos, just due to cost
constraints.
Walt Sparling (29:42):
That could be a revenue stream right there.
Joseph Phillips (29:45):
That may be something that we consider right
now.
Our focus is on, you know,getting this thing rolling and
getting the word out and gettingpeople involved.
So we would certainly take thatinto consideration some type of
a you know, marginal fee forlifetime access or something
like that.
But we would have to reallythink that through how that
(30:07):
would work.
Walt Sparling (30:07):
All right, Well, if you do, I'll take my
commission on that.
Yeah, we'll work something out,joe, always always a pleasure
chatting with you and I'm reallyexcited about this.
I can't wait to go through thecourse myself or the
certification, because I've seensome of the courses and I'm
jacked about going through andtaking them.
Joseph Phillips (30:31):
Well, I think it's different, it's unique.
No one else is doing this.
We have all different voices,so it's not just me, it's not
just Walt, so we have peoplefrom all over the world with
different backgrounds, differentexpertise.
So I think it's pretty smartand it's taken two years from
(30:52):
concept to go live.
So we really have done a lot ofresearch and thought and prayer
and sweat, no blood or tears,but it it is been quite the
endeavor and I'm really proud ofit.
And you know, it's this I justcelebrated in January.
(31:14):
I've been teaching in my career.
My whole career has beenteaching and consulting, but I'm
teaching in some capacity forthe last 30 years and to stand
back, you know, and, of course,project management for a little
over 20, and to stand back andsay, okay, I want to leave, not
to sound cheesy, but a littlebit of a legacy, or to really
(31:38):
package up what I've learned andwhat I believe in.
And there's so much that I haveyet to learn from all these
individuals.
And in the industry there'salways something new to learn,
and so that was part of the ideafor this.
Like I don't know everything,I'm smart enough to know that I
don't know everything and soreally sought out people of all
(31:58):
different age groups.
I mean, there's some very youngfolks and some folks that are
retired that I coaxed back intothis just based on their career
and I know them personally, so Ithink it's a very unique
package.
Walt Sparling (32:12):
Well in the show notes.
I'm hoping to see a lot of thelisteners checking it out and if
you have any questions, reachout to myself or Joe and we'll
(32:36):
get you some answers.
Joseph Phillips (32:38):
Absolutely.
I'm eager to see what you dowith this and how we can grow
together and what's going tohappen in the industry over the
next couple of years.
Walt Sparling (32:48):
All right.
Well, thank you for coming on,joe, and I want you to make sure
that you keep moving forward.
Joseph Phillips (32:57):
I will, you too , keep moving forward.
Thanks, walt, appreciate you.
Walt Sparling (33:02):
Thanks everyone for for listening and we'll see
you on the next episode of pmmastery thanks for listening to
the pm mastery podcast atwwwpm-masterycom.
Intro/Outro (33:13):
Be sure to subscribe in your podcast player
until next time.
Keep working on your craft.
Joseph Phillips (33:27):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the PM Mastery Podcast.
This podcast is all abouthelping you master your project
management skills by sharingtips, tricks, tools and training
to get you to the next level,while sharing the stories of
other project managers on theirjourney in project management.
And now here's your host, waltSparling.
Walt Sparling (00:36):
Welcome everybody to the current edition of PM
Mastery, and today I am honoredto have with us Joseph Phillip.
Once again, welcome to the show, joseph.
Thanks, walt.
Happy to be here.
I know I was thinking back andI'm like, oh, it's been a while
since you've been on the podcast.
And I'm like, no, you haven't.
You were on it last month whenwe did the top five most popular
(00:57):
episodes, right, and thenbefore that we did the book
review.
I believe it was the CAPM book.
That was like last year.
Joseph Phillips (01:08):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's been a little while.
Walt Sparling (01:10):
Yeah, so what else has been going on?
What's going on in your world?
Joseph Phillips (01:14):
Well, we have been just a flurry of activity
with, you know, pmbok 8.
So we've been reviewing thatand looking at updates for
what's going to be big changeswhenever that's released.
Of course, the exam contentoutline has not changed.
I've been getting a lot ofquestions about that, you know,
with PMBOK 8.
(01:36):
There's always been thismisconception, especially the
last few years, that there's acorrelation between the PMBOK
and the PMP or the CAPM, andthat's not true.
The exam, like the PMP forexample, is based on, I think,
16 different books, not just thePMBOK guide, but there is an
(01:59):
expectation of terminology andthe processes like there's 40
processes in PMBOK 8, I believe.
So there will be some changes,I'm sure, coming on the exam.
None of that has been announcedyet from PMI but we're just in
the review stage of PMBOK 8 andlooking to see what you know
what's PMI's vision is for newprocesses, new approaches.
(02:26):
I mean project management isproject management.
It's always been my thing, soI've been immersed in that.
And then, of course, workingtowards the updated PMI ACP.
You know that exam changedrecently, so I've been reviewing
that content and going to beupdating some materials for that
exam.
But again, agile is agile, so Idon't get too caught up in.
(02:50):
Oh, there's a new addition tothis or that.
At the heart of it it's stillagile, it's still Scrum, it's
still XP, it's still projectmanagement.
I mean there was no PMBOK guywhen they built the Eiffel Tower
or the pyramids, or thepyramids or the pyramids, or the
Rockefeller Center or theEmpire State Building or what
have you.
So I don't get too emotionalabout the PMBOK guide.
Walt Sparling (03:17):
It's interesting.
This is not PMI, but I haven'tdone a lot with Agile and we've
talked about this in the past,so that's one of my things this
year is to get involved more inthat.
So I'm actually taking yourprofessional Scrum Master course
and working on getting thatcertification behind me this
year, so help me get a littlebit more and see how I can maybe
(03:39):
relate the Agile to some ofwhat I do, sure.
Joseph Phillips (03:43):
Agile is not a panacea.
I think it's become kind of ahype that, oh, it's Agile to
some of what I do.
Sure, agile is not a panacea.
I think it's become kind of ahype that, oh, it's Agile, it's
clever and fun.
But Agile does not work foreverything.
There are some things that youhave to predict, like in your
industry with construction.
I mean, you have to know whatthe building's going to look
like before you start.
Agile is more suited for youknow brain work, you know
(04:07):
writing, coding, creative typework or, of course, predictive
is anything more industrial.
But I think there are a lot ofthings from Agile that we can
take and put into a predictiveenvironment to basically realize
business value sooner and tostreamline some repetition and
(04:32):
to have a more iterativeapproach to some of our work.
Walt Sparling (04:38):
Now I'm thinking design.
Joseph Phillips (04:39):
design for the could be agile Right yeah, or
even taking things like theretrospective or looking at time
blocks like three weeks or fourweeks of effort.
What are we going to get donein the next four weeks?
To take chunks of work and I'malways a big fan of smaller
chunks of work that it's easierto manage, easier to see where
(05:03):
we're going to be in four weeksas opposed to four months.
It's not always realistic, butwhenever possible I like to work
in smaller chunks of work.
You may be familiar withLittle's Law that basically, the
longer the queue, the longerit's going to take.
So if you have fewer people inline, the line moves pretty
quick.
Intro/Outro (05:23):
You got a lot of people in line.
Joseph Phillips (05:24):
It just takes longer, like at the DMV where
you get your driver's licensebut little is all so just kind
of that, you know, kind of makessense when you think about it.
The longer the line, the longerit'll take.
But the shorter the line, youknow you can work faster in
smaller iterations and knockthings out.
Kind of ties into the Pomodorotechnique.
(05:45):
I'm a big fan of where you andI have talked about that,
working in small chunks, like 25minutes.
There you go exactly, yeah,mine's in the other, but to work
in small chunks of time, I'm abig fan of the Pomodoro
technique.
Walt Sparling (06:03):
It's just on a bigger scale, is what we see in
Agile.
So good to have you on Good tocatch up a little bit.
I believe you have anotherproject that you're working on.
Joseph Phillips (06:14):
I do.
So this is big news.
This has been a huge endeavor,so we're going to break the news
here.
I've not really told a wholelot of people about it.
Of course, when this comes out,our program will be going live,
and that is the Pure ProjectManager.
This is a new credential thatfocuses on the core, real-world,
(06:38):
applicable skills of projectmanagement.
No theory, no fluff, no flow,no earned value management, but
the idea being, as you know,I've been teaching to P&P for
over 20 years and consulted andled projects, and there is a
(06:59):
real dichotomy between theory,classroom book and actual
application.
And so over the last few yearsI've developed this framework
called PURE, and PURE meansProjects Under Realistic
Expectations, with the ideabeing that we as an industry, a
(07:25):
project management community,maybe not an industry we have to
have an understanding thatthere is no formula for project
management that works everywhere.
You cannot take the PMBOK guideand just say I'm going to do
everything in here, my projectwill be successful.
That is a guide to thegenerally accepted practices of
(07:46):
project management.
So Pure begins with thisacknowledgement that it's not a
one-size-fits-all solution.
So that's a realisticexpectation.
And then we have a realisticexpectations in different
industries, differentexpectations, compliance,
regulations, laws and so on.
So we know, in constructionversus healthcare, versus IT,
(08:09):
versus banking, all of thosehave different compliance.
You have safety, you havepatient care, you have financial
and all sorts of laws andcompliance that are unique to
that industry, that basicallyare requirements that are
constraints on what you may doin that industry.
So we have to have realisticexpectations there.
(08:30):
Then we have to have realisticexpectations in the organization
.
So you may have two companiesin construction, but they have a
different way of doing business.
So the standards, the culture,the formalities are different in
each organization as well.
(08:51):
So we have this broad umbrellaof pure that becomes more and
more narrow to the individualorganization and projects
operating in that organization.
So it's projects underrealistic expectations that we
have to have a buy-in to thatconcept that there is not a
universal approach.
(09:12):
Now, having said that, what thecourse is?
I've partnered with over 20project management experts Walt,
you are one of those people andwe have created a series of
courses that equates to 60 hoursof project management education
no theory, but how projectsactually work.
(09:34):
So no fluff, no aspirationalgoals, real world expectations
of how projects work in thesedifferent environments.
So there are.
We begin with that concept of ajust having an acknowledgement
that what works in oneenvironment will not work in
every environment.
(09:56):
And then the program there is ahost of classes they range from
an hour up to five or six hoursthat you complete at your pace
and at the end of completing allof the courses, the total of 60
hours of training you must passa 100-question exam.
(10:17):
Pass a 100-question exam, youhave 90 minutes to do so and
then you'll receive a badge fromCredly that says you are a pure
project manager.
So you're authenticated, you'reverified and you can add that
to your LinkedIn, to your resume, to your email and so on.
And then, of course, it's 60hours, which the goal there is
(10:40):
twofold is one to give a broadbase of knowledge of real-world
application and then two tosupport, if you have PMI
credentials, that you'll get 60PDUs for your ongoing education
requirements with PMI, educationrequirements with PMI.
(11:04):
So it is a massive program,it's a massive endeavor.
Came up with this framework overthe last seven years.
You'll see on our website,puremanagementalliancecom, that
it's kind of a temple of projectmanagement that has a
foundation all the way up to thepinnacle of it, which is
business value, that everythinghas to support business value
(11:25):
and that if any one of thosecomponents in the temple and the
framework were to be faulty,your project's going to fail in
some aspect.
So that's pure.
That's been consuming my lifefor the last year, on top of
everything else getting thisvision to come to life.
So it's very exciting.
(11:45):
It's a totally different way oftraining and learning project
management.
So the folks that are involved,the people from all over the
world we have PhDs, we havepeople that are in the trenches,
we have folks that have donetraining and some that I've
never taught before, but they'rejust good communicators and
(12:07):
they're really doing projectmanagement.
That it's not a slide deck andthey're just reading the slides.
These are folks that areactually doing project
management and what's worked forthem in their career and how
other PMs can apply that intheir lives and in their career.
Walt Sparling (12:23):
So I, like you said, I I'm involved in this as
well and it has been aninteresting journey to get
through and it is a lot of work.
It was a lot of work.
It's still happening but, um,you know, as as we move forward,
but it was fun.
And I do know probably prettywell about a third of the people
(12:44):
that are the instructors.
The other people I know kind ofsort of some I've met for the
first time and I also know thatsome of the instructors over the
next I would say at least thenext month or so are going to be
coming on the podcast andthey're going to specifically
talk about their courses andthen I assume, over time, more
(13:09):
will come on as well.
So you're going to be hearing alot about this, mingled in
between other podcast episodes.
So I'll probably do a lot morereleases for the listeners.
Instead of one every two weeks,which has kind of been my
average there might be for awhile, there might be two a week
just to kind of get everybody'sepisodes out there and get
(13:29):
everybody familiar with what'sgoing on and get a feel for what
this, this certificate, is like.
So I'm I'm pretty excited aboutgetting it out there.
Joseph Phillips (13:41):
I think it's a great opportunity for learners
and project managers on a coupleof different fronts.
One, there is no barrier toentry.
That you complete the courseand pass the exam.
That's all it takes.
It's a huge.
It's a huge program.
Those 60 hours is no joke.
Walt Sparling (14:03):
Yeah, and I've run that through my head and
I've talked with some otherfolks about, okay, allocating 60
hours and you know me, I have afull-time job.
Most almost everybody does hasa full-time job.
They already have others.
I'm working on anothercertificate or certification.
I'm buying a house right now.
I've got my podcast, my blog,other things that I'm doing.
(14:25):
So, yeah, I'm trying to figureout how am I going to get this.
You know I will get it done.
It's just like how long will ittake?
Yeah, you got to set to it.
It's just like when I studiedfor and passed the PMP, I had a
plan and then I just worked thatplan until I got through it and
completed it.
Joseph Phillips (14:43):
Absolutely.
It's definitely going to takesome dedication and some
resiliency, which the programitself is part of being a
project manager, of seeingthings through the program, you
have one year to complete the 60hours and pass the exam, so
it's not like you have to do itin a month.
(15:03):
You could do a couple hours aweek and have a pretty good
grasp, you know by month eightor so, of being prepared.
The final exam as well is alittle different than other
credentials, a little differentthan other credentials we won't
(15:26):
mention any names, but you takethe exam online.
It is a self-paced, aself-guided exam of 100
questions and you have 90minutes to answer all the
questions.
Any blank questions are wrong.
And so in our focus group, someof the feedback we had was well,
won't people use Google or abook to look it up?
And my response is absolutely,yeah, absolutely, because if I'm
(15:48):
in a project that I don't knowwhat to do, I'm going to use
Google and look it up.
So that's part of using somecritical thinking, which is one
of the components of Pure is touse your resources to answer
questions or figure things out.
The goal is to not answer thequestion.
The goal is to support businessvalue.
So the other part of that,though, is you only have 90
(16:09):
minutes to answer 100 questions,so if you are whirling through
you know Google looking for theanswer I have to read articles
and so on you're going to runout of time, and you run out of
time blank answers are wrong.
Walt Sparling (16:23):
I just want to add something to that.
Not only do you.
What you just said about thetime is that you don't get to
the final until you've taken the90, 60.
Yeah, exactly.
Joseph Phillips (16:34):
And all of the final is based on all of the
individual courses and at theend of each course there is an
exam, little quiz that will testyou on the content of that
course.
So you'll have a good idea ontopics that you need to spend
more time on or seek clarity on.
The other part of it beingself-led and online is, I think
(17:00):
sometimes there is undue stress,like the stress of going to the
testing center and you got totake everything out of your
pocket and get the wand over youor having a proctor stare at
you.
It adds a lot of anxiety and Ithink a lot of adults get test
anxiety where they are good PMsand they know how to do project
(17:22):
management and they know thematerial.
But that test anxiety comes inand really robs them and cheats
them of all the work thatthey've done.
And so what's the goal?
To pass a test or to be abetter project manager, To be a
better PM?
So that was part of myphilosophy with why I've elected
to do it online as part of theprogram, without going to a
(17:44):
testing center.
And there is, you know, alittle bit of ethics that are in
there as well.
We have it's not the same 100questions every time.
There's a pool of questionsthat will rotate around and then
, based on the analytics for howpeople answer test questions,
we'll determine is that a poortest question because everybody
(18:05):
gets it right or everybodymisses that one.
So it will give us some insight.
So over the program we'll beable to add and delete questions
just based on the performanceinside of the exam.
So it will be evolving over thenext two, three years as the
amount of test takers begin toaccumulate.
(18:28):
We have a good pool to see howpeople are answering individual
questions.
Walt Sparling (18:33):
So a couple of questions that I have, and some
of these I already know theanswers to, but I want to put it
out.
There is there are 60 hours.
How many actual courses arethere in that 60 hours?
Joseph Phillips (18:47):
Oh, that's a great question.
I think there are about 32individual classes.
Like I said, some are an hour,some are four or five hours, so
it just depends on the topic andyou can take them in any order
that you wish.
They will be presented in anorder that we feel is best, but
(19:12):
you could pause this guy and gostart another one, or vice versa
.
I think try to make thelearning into smaller chunks so
it's easier to get throughsmaller portions into bite size.
And they're all on differenttopics.
I mean there's a little bit ofoverlap just due to the nature.
Walt Sparling (19:32):
For example, we have courses on emotional
intelligence, but we also have acourse on personality types, so
those two are relevant, and Ido know because there's two
other individuals that I knowthat are doing courses and one
in the beginning we actuallycompared our course outlines to
make sure we didn't have a lotof overlap.
(19:52):
Ours are on communication, butthat individual took a different
dove, deeper into some thingsthan I did.
So it's it's complimentary.
So in my mind I'm probablygoing to go through and pick out
any ones that are kind ofsimilar and batch those, do
those all together.
So I kind of all of that.
So I do like the ability totake them out of order.
Joseph Phillips (20:16):
And we have some.
There's a couple that are, Ithink, pretty unique, that you
probably won't see in any otherprogram.
One is well, I do a course oncritical thinking, which is one
of our main pieces of ourframework about how to.
What is critical thinking?
How does it work in projectmanagement?
Some logic, and there's somedifferent puzzles in the course.
(20:37):
Just to get thinking.
A big part of project managementis critical thinking, and then
the other side of the coin, ofcourse, is the emotional
intelligence.
And then there's a reallyinteresting course about being a
project manager in a startupenvironment, and this is from an
individual that's had a lot ofexperience coaching and
(20:58):
consulting PM for startup work.
But it's applicable to evenlarge organizations because the
project itself can be looked atalmost like a little business
with ROI, business value, timeand resource or labor costs.
So that's a shorter course, butI think it's relevant.
There's lots of little nuggetsin there, even if you're in a
(21:20):
large organization.
And then we have a really goodcourse by Dr Chambers, a dear
friend, and he does the courseon customer service.
The idea of servant leadershipand really being just a good
person goes a long way, andhaving a good attitude goes a
(21:44):
long way in project management.
So I think that actually I justwatched Jim Chambers' course, I
just watched his course.
Yeah, it's very good.
I'm really excited.
Walt Sparling (21:55):
It's one of the things that I.
I haven't been able to take anyof the courses yet, but I have
seen a lot of the introductoryvideos and there are some ones
there that I'm really lookingforward to His being one.
I just commented on that, Ithink, this morning.
That's a great one.
So there's AI, there'scommunication, there's risk,
(22:17):
there's stakeholder management.
I mean, there's a ton ofinformation out there and, like
you said, it's from PMs that areactually doing it, not not.
You need to consider this stuffif you come into it.
Well, hey, I do this stuff andthis is how.
Joseph Phillips (22:33):
Yeah.
So I've asked people like whenyou and I, you know, first
talking about you doing yourcourses, I said, okay, what is
your biggest strength?
Or, if you were, we have acourse on hacking your project.
So like some tips and tricks tohack your project.
So each individual when wetalked about doing a class was,
(22:55):
okay, what do you consider anarea of project management
that's helped you in your careerthat not everybody's doing, and
how can we package that soother people can do what you do?
And that was a conversation wehad over and over on all these
different topics as we took theframework and presented that to
our group of trainers andprofessionals.
Walt Sparling (23:19):
So the other thing that I think is really
good is this course, or thiscertification includes a bunch
of courses, but you can takethem in any order and they each
have their own PDU value.
So in theory, you could take 15of the courses and get whatever
(23:42):
those PDDRs and you can claimthem.
If it's your turn to do yourrenewal, you can claim those and
they're actual, available toyou.
You don't have to wait till theend of the final to claim those
.
The other is the cost.
Joseph Phillips (24:00):
Yeah, let me talk about both of those things
not to interrupt you, but I didbecause I'm really proud of that
idea of getting your PDUs inmotion.
If we go to an agileenvironment, we want incremental
deliverables, so I getincremental value as the
project's in motion.
So you, as you work your waythrough the course, every course
(24:22):
, you'll get a certificate andthat has the PDU distribution on
the certificate and you can goout and enter those PDUs even
though you're not done with theentire program.
So the business value, which isour primary focus of Pure the
business value is you get thePDUs as you move through the
course, so you get incrementalvalue.
(24:43):
You get the PDUs as you movethrough the course, so you get
incremental value.
And then the ultimate value isyou get a new credential, the
Pure Project Manager, which istrademarked, and we have the
partnership with Credly.
So you'll get the blockchainverified badge and certificate
that anyone can click on and itshows that you actually did pass
the exam.
It's not just a piece ofartwork that anybody can copy
(25:06):
and paste and throw out there.
The same with the individualcourses you don't get a Credly
badge for each course, but thecertificate has a unique code on
it that's tied to yourtranscript on our server.
So you get value as you movethrough the course and then
ultimately the final deliverableis the credential that then you
(25:28):
can claim the pure projectmanager.
Oh, and then the price.
So we again focus group.
We talked and considered a lotover the past year about where
this was going to land on price.
So it came on the result of$399.
So you consider 60 hours ofeducation and a new credential
(25:49):
$399.
And I know that is less thanother credentials in the
marketplace and it may be morethan some other credentials, but
I think the value propositionfor the amount of education you
get, the amount of PDUs you getat $399, is pretty tremendous.
So, whatever that comes out toan hour, what is that like?
(26:10):
$6 and some change in an hourfor your PDUs.
Plus you're working towards anew credential.
You can be one of the firstpeople to have this credential
if you sign up atpuremanagementalliancecom.
Walt Sparling (26:24):
It's a one-stop shop.
So you sign up, you starttaking your courses, you start
getting your PDUs when it's timeto take the test.
It's not a separate fee, it'snot a separate sit down.
You just, when you're done, youroll in and take your test.
Joseph Phillips (26:38):
Exactly, that was one of the challenges.
Obviously, my business has.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
You know, we generate revenuefrom training the PMP exam or
the ACP or CSM, and then theother side of that people have
to pay for.
Then now you got to pay for thetesting fee alone.
(26:59):
So this is all together it's$3.99 for both.
You get all the education, the60 hours and the exam.
You don't have to pay twodifferent fees.
That's right.
Walt Sparling (27:10):
What about continuing?
You know we're talking aboutPDUs.
You're earning PDUs, but willthere be a requirement at some
point where, in order tomaintain your certification, you
have to take refresher coursesor get other PDUs Right now as
we are launching, and you knowwe're pretty grassroots here.
Joseph Phillips (27:33):
So right now I'm not making or we are not
making that a requirement.
If down the road, like, let'ssay, two, three years from now,
we need to update content and wewant to do a continuing ed to
maintain that credential, I'llbe fair or we will be fair,
meaning that anyone before thatdecision they're grandfathered
(27:56):
in.
I'm not going to make peoplelike oh, you earned it, now
we're going to change the ruleswhen we, if we change the rules
for continuing ed requirementslike PDUs, for pure whatever
that may be, ceus or whateverwhen that decision is made, that
would be for individuals fromthat point forward.
So anyone that goes into theprogram now you're going to be a
(28:19):
pure PM forever and ever,without any additional
educational requirements.
If that changes, thoseindividuals will be
grandfathered in.
We won't make people like nowyou got to pay again and take it
again or get more training orwhatnot, so at some point we may
grow into that.
Right now we're not making thata requirement.
Walt Sparling (28:42):
Now, if someone goes through the course and
there's so much good informationbecause I know some of these
folks and I've seen littletidbits of their courses I sign
up, I take the course, I pass, Iget my credential and I'm
working on a job and I don'tdeal with I don't know, let's
(29:02):
say risk much, but I know I tooka course on risk in this
program.
Will I have access to go backand look at that again and watch
the video?
Joseph Phillips (29:13):
You have one year access to the program.
So that's an interestingquestion.
There will be deliverables thatwill be yours to keep, like
slides and so on, but the actualvideo content?
You have one year to completethe program and then you are
done.
So, to answer your question, no, there won't be a lifetime
(29:38):
access, or anything like that,to the videos, just due to cost
constraints.
Walt Sparling (29:42):
That could be a revenue stream right there.
Joseph Phillips (29:45):
That may be something that we consider right
now.
Our focus is on, you know,getting this thing rolling and
getting the word out and gettingpeople involved.
So we would certainly take thatinto consideration some type of
a you know, marginal fee forlifetime access or something
like that.
But we would have to reallythink that through how that
(30:07):
would work.
Walt Sparling (30:07):
All right, Well, if you do, I'll take my
commission on that.
Yeah, we'll work something out,joe, always always a pleasure
chatting with you and I'm reallyexcited about this.
I can't wait to go through thecourse myself or the
certification, because I've seensome of the courses and I'm
jacked about going through andtaking them.
Joseph Phillips (30:31):
Well, I think it's different, it's unique.
No one else is doing this.
We have all different voices,so it's not just me, it's not
just Walt, so we have peoplefrom all over the world with
different backgrounds, differentexpertise.
So I think it's pretty smartand it's taken two years from
(30:52):
concept to go live.
So we really have done a lot ofresearch and thought and prayer
and sweat, no blood or tears,but it it is been quite the
endeavor and I'm really proud ofit.
And you know, it's this I justcelebrated in January.
(31:14):
I've been teaching in my career.
My whole career has beenteaching and consulting, but I'm
teaching in some capacity forthe last 30 years and to stand
back, you know, and, of course,project management for a little
over 20, and to stand back andsay, okay, I want to leave, not
to sound cheesy, but a littlebit of a legacy, or to really
(31:38):
package up what I've learned andwhat I believe in.
And there's so much that I haveyet to learn from all these
individuals.
And in the industry there'salways something new to learn,
and so that was part of the ideafor this.
Like I don't know everything,I'm smart enough to know that I
don't know everything and soreally sought out people of all
(31:58):
different age groups.
I mean, there's some very youngfolks and some folks that are
retired that I coaxed back intothis just based on their career
and I know them personally, so Ithink it's a very unique
package.
Walt Sparling (32:12):
Well in the show notes.
I'm hoping to see a lot of thelisteners checking it out and if
you have any questions, reachout to myself or Joe and we'll
(32:36):
get you some answers.
Joseph Phillips (32:38):
Absolutely.
I'm eager to see what you dowith this and how we can grow
together and what's going tohappen in the industry over the
next couple of years.
Walt Sparling (32:48):
All right.
Well, thank you for coming on,joe, and I want you to make sure
that you keep moving forward.
Joseph Phillips (32:57):
I will, you too , keep moving forward.
Thanks, walt, appreciate you.
Walt Sparling (33:02):
Thanks everyone for for listening and we'll see
you on the next episode of pmmastery thanks for listening to
the pm mastery podcast atwwwpm-masterycom.
Intro/Outro (33:13):
Be sure to subscribe in your podcast player
until next time.
Keep working on your craft.
Joseph Phillips (33:27):
We'll see you next time.
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