April 27, 2025 • 26 mins
Robert's journey from IT help desk technician to systems manager and project management instructor reveals how unexpected career paths often yield the most valuable insights. When tasked with teaching experienced construction project managers to abandon paper for digital systems, he discovered his true calling: bridging knowledge gaps to help people work more efficiently with technology. "The systems we have exist to make our lives easier," Robert explains, "but there are humans involved who have to use them to do their jobs."
This human-centered approach infuses Robert's three courses created for the PURE Project Manager Credential program. Robert's Project Hacks course integrates real-world experience with theoretical knowledge, imparting practical adjustments that enhance project outcomes without compromising on quality. The Lessons Learned and Postmortems course challenges conventional wisdom by advocating for continuous learning throughout projects rather than just at completion. Perhaps most surprisingly, his Self-Care for Project Managers course addresses an often-overlooked aspect of the profession—how meditation, exercise, and simple daily practices can help manage the mental "churn" that accompanies project challenges.
What makes Robert's perspective particularly valuable is how he connects these seemingly separate topics into a cohesive approach. The skills to document processes clearly, the wisdom to learn continuously, and the self-awareness to maintain personal wellbeing create a powerful toolkit for today's project managers. Drawing parallels to his martial arts training, Robert demonstrates how teaching others effectively requires both mastery of techniques and understanding of human learning patterns.
Whether you're an experienced project manager looking to refine your approach or new to the field and seeking practical guidance, this episode offers insights that extend beyond theoretical frameworks into real-world application. Subscribe to PM Mastery for more conversations that transform how you think about and practice project management.
Links:
- Connect with Robert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-hean/
Robert's Pure Courses: https://tinyurl.com/44zknpus
- Post Mortems
- Self-Care for Project Managers
- Project Hacks
PM-Mastery Links:
- For a full podcast episode list, visit here: PM-Mastery Podcast Episodes.
- For a full list of blog posts, go here: PM-Mastery Blog Posts
- Become a PURE PM: https://pm-mastery.com/pure
- Check out Instructing.com for all your PM course needs: https://www.instructing.com/?ref=bd5e5c
- Get your free PDU Tracker here: https://pm-mastery.com/resource_links/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro/Outro (00:12):
Welcome to the PM Mastery Podcast.
This podcast is all abouthelping you master your project
management skills by sharingtips, tricks, tools and training
to get you to the next level,while sharing the stories of
other project managers on theirjourney in project management.
And now here's your host, waltSparling.
Walt Sparling (00:36):
Welcome everybody to the current edition of PM
Mastery, and today I have withme Robert Heen.
Welcome, robert.
Robert Hean (00:44):
Thank you, Walt.
I really appreciate being hereand having a chance to just chat
about project management.
It's an interesting field andsomething that I really enjoy.
Walt Sparling (00:53):
Cool, I'm glad you do.
I kind of like it too.
Awesome.
Well, I'm glad we're here.
So we have not.
We've chatted a few times.
We're working on a jointproject, or we worked on a joint
project and we've interacted afew times I think we were on a
video together recently butdon't know a lot about you other
(01:16):
than what I've learned in ourproject, so why don't you tell
us what it is you do?
Robert Hean (01:24):
That is a great question, walt.
Professionally, I'm a systemsmanager, so that means I work
with teams to figure out how thevarious systems they work on or
need to use, typically with,like HR, human resources.
My career started ininformation technology, though,
so I was the guy who woulddeliver your new laptop or your
monitor and just plug it in andwalk away.
Technology, though, so I wasthe guy who would deliver your
(01:45):
new laptop or your monitor andjust plug it in and walk away.
Um, and since then the arc hasbeen like it help desk drone,
for lack of a better term Um.
And then I got pulled on aproject teams within a few
months and I was very lucky.
The director of it said, hey, Ithink you'll like project work.
And I said, yeah, that soundslike fun.
And I became the projectmanagement module expert for an
(02:07):
ERP, an enterprise resourceplanning system, and I knew
nothing about project managementand I knew nothing about that
ERP, except how to install it onpeople's computers.
And they told me I had to go tothese project managers who have
been in the field for 20, 30years in construction and ship
development and building thingsand tell them they had to go
away from paper and go to thisnew system, and that's that was
(02:30):
my introduction to both projectmanagement but also like big
scale systems, and it reallytaught me that like I've never
seen terror in someone's eyes,like if you look in someone's
eyes and you see their peopleshrink, like in the movies, and
like they're terrified.
I've only seen that once andthat's when I had to tell a guy
you can't write down a paperrequisition form anymore, you
(02:51):
have to use this computerprogram, and that that reminded
me like the systems we haveexist to make our lives easier
and help us do things, whateverthat system is our online
banking, our steel requisitioncomputer, whatever, um, but
there's humans involved and likesomehow these humans have to
use the system to do their job.
They don't care about thesystem, and so that's why that's
(03:12):
how I've tracked my career isto help people like that steel
worker do his job, do what hewants to do, take care of his
family and not have to fightwith the platform.
Walt Sparling (03:22):
I'm with you there.
I mean, when I was in IT formany years and one of my goals
was to make things easier forthe users, you know the the
company would say we want themto learn this software and start
using this and be like, okay,what kind of training are we
going to do?
They'll learn as they go.
No, that's not going to work.
I think we should do training.
(03:43):
So we would do training andthen I would write I created an
intranet at one firm and then Iautomated a bunch of their paper
stuff into the intranet so theycould fill out their forms, and
it was all about how is itgoing to make things easier and
more efficient?
Love that kind of stuff.
Robert Hean (04:00):
Yeah, and that's a great point.
A lot of these systems, eventoday, they claim, oh, your
users just open it up and theycan use it.
And, like I, fall into thatbucket.
Like I like the challenge ofhey, here's a system and here's
a at the time a paper manual ornow an online guide.
Like I like that challenge.
For me it's I joke, it's likeuntangling Christmas lights.
(04:20):
It just gives me this weirdsense of satisfaction.
Lights, it just gives me thisweird sense of satisfaction.
Um, but I also acknowledge thatmany people don't have the time
, the energy to do that.
They just want to go in and dotheir job.
Why they shouldn't have tofight with the system.
They need that enablement, theyneed that resource to help them
figure this new thing out.
That can be threatening,because they might feel like,
hey, am I going to get fired ifI don't know how to do this
(04:40):
thing.
Walt Sparling (04:41):
Yeah, and there there's so much and there's so
much in there's so much scienceto just the interface.
You know how, how do you get,how do you do the prompts.
You know what is it going tomake this person feel
comfortable going through anddoing it.
So, yeah, different differentworld.
Robert Hean (04:58):
Right, it's um, my, uh.
My aunt tells me stories, youknow she got into like digital
media when she was going throughcollege and she was telling me
I forget if she saw thisfirsthand or, you know, heard
someone working on it but someof the first computer mice, they
would sit down, someone, youknow the people who invented it
would sit someone down at acomputer and they would take the
(05:19):
mouse and they would put it upon the screen over the cursor to
like move it around.
And all the engineers arehorrified, like no, it goes on
the desk, like why are youputting it there?
Something that the engineerthought was intuitive, you know
might not be.
And so, to your point, you haveto invest in this.
And how do you make the systemas easy to use as possible, you
know, for the average person whohas to use it?
Walt Sparling (05:49):
No, so it sounds like you have a fun job.
Robert Hean (05:50):
Now, that's not all you do.
What else do you do?
I definitely don't skateboard.
Sorry, I gotta call this out.
Multiple people have asked meif I skateboard or snowboard.
Um, that one my aunt gave me.
Walt Sparling (05:58):
Well, before you go too far, and I can edit this
out.
Robert Hean (06:01):
This is audio only oh, audio only even better.
Thank you, yeah, oh, so I canslouch.
Intro/Outro (06:08):
Okay.
Robert Hean (06:08):
Yeah, you don't have to, and maybe maybe leave
this in because it's funny.
Um, uh, you know, uh, what do Ido in my spare time?
Well, that's a great question.
Behind me on the wall there's acouple of skateboard decks.
So the thing you stand on on askateboard.
Um, and when I have meetingsand things, people ask me, rob,
you must be a skateboarder.
And I say, absolutely not, Ilike the art that's on them.
(06:30):
Uh, my aunt had one.
Someone left it at her house,like a house guest just left
their skateboard, and so shegave it to me, thinking I might
like it.
I hung it on the wall.
It looks pretty.
Uh, I've got another one withan owl on it from a local artist
and I figured, hey, I'llsupport this artist, and it
looks kind of neat.
Walt Sparling (06:45):
Yeah, well, I like it, I can see it.
We're just not sharing it onfor video.
Robert Hean (06:51):
Oh yeah, totally fine.
Um, the other thing I do a lot,though, is martial arts, and
it's interesting.
I started in college as a gymclass and this kind of ties back
into my arc with systems, andpart of this martial art is
learning how to instruct andteach.
So the idea is, by the timeyou're a black belt martial
artist, you can fight and youknow forms and do the flying
(07:12):
kicks and stuff.
I can't really do the flyingkicks I'm still working on that
one but you can also teach abeginner.
You could take someone who'sinterested but doesn't know
anything and teach themeverything to become a black
belt, and teach them everythingto become a black belt.
And that skill of like bridgingthe gap, taking someone who is
(07:32):
at you know at some point ofexpertise and helping them get
more points of expertise hasbeen another common thread, and
that can be expressed throughthat steel worker who needs to,
you know, put in the requisition, or other people on my team
learning project management, orother people out in the world
who want to learn from us on howto better manage their projects
.
And that connection physicallyin a martial art is easier
because you're right there infront of me, but through the
(07:55):
online learning platforms isalso very strong, because you
can reach out and connect withdozens, hundreds, thousands of
people and help them improve aswell.
Walt Sparling (08:04):
Well, the cool thing with the in-person stuff
is, when they don't do somethingright, you can smack them.
But you know, when you'reonline it's a little harder.
Robert Hean (08:13):
You gotta yeah, I, fortunately, you know I haven't
had to smack anyone, but you'reright.
Well, like it's interestingthinking in person and I do a
lot of online learnings on likeYouTube that are live, so
everyone can see me and I justsee a chat window and like
that's good because many peoplecan interact and hopefully they
ask questions and I alwaysencourage them like use the chat
(08:33):
, let me know what doesn't makesense.
But it's hard to figure outwith this one way medium of just
you're watching or justlistening.
How can I help that personimprove?
And that really shifts how Iapproach it.
Because you're absolutely right.
If I see someone do a form andit's wrong, I can point at their
leg or whatever and say youstepped the wrong way.
If one of my online learningstudents is following the course
(08:54):
and they answer a quiz questionwrong, I might never know Right
.
So how do we set them up forsuccess when we we don't see
what's happening?
Walt Sparling (09:05):
so, training, teaching, you like, doing that,
and one of the reasons thatyou're on here, or the main
reason, is we just work togetheron a project, and a lot of the
interviews that have, uh, beenaired in the last probably month
and a half have been from otherinstructors who are in what's
(09:31):
called the pure program, thepure project manager credential
credential, that's right caughton the certification.
We work together along with allthese other project manager
management instructors on whatwas called the pure project
manager credential, and it'sthrough pure project management
(09:53):
Alliance yeah which is headed byJoseph Phillips, which I
believe both of us have quite ahistory with with Joe over the
years super nice guy yeah, I.
Robert Hean (10:08):
I bumped into Joe, actually thinking back to my
first job in it.
Moving on to project teams, theit director gave me a book on
project management.
It was Joe's first book thatwent through on project
management and I didn't realizethat for years after I've been
working with him.
I pulled it off the shelf.
I was like, oh, look at this,here's this book written by you.
(10:29):
And he kind of laughed and said, yeah, that was one of the
first ones I did.
Um, so, fast forward in mycareer, I was on LinkedIn or
something, and his team neededsome help you know, proofing
questions or doing some smallwork.
And I said, yeah, I'd love todo that.
And my thinking was, hey, thiswill help me understand project
management better, but also helpme help others understand
project management better.
(10:50):
So again thinking, how do Ihelp out the other people who,
you know, don't have the time orthe energy or the effort to
suffer through the thing?
What can I do to help elevatethem in some way?
And it's since evolved to yourpoint into this partnership with
like 25 other project managerson this credential.
Walt Sparling (11:08):
Yeah, it's powerful.
So you did, I believe, threecourses, or I think you got the
gold star.
Um, there's a gold star.
Well, for the most courses, Ithink.
I don't think I think a coupleof people did too, but I don't
know if I don't know, if anyoneelse that did three, except for
Joe.
Well, joe, you know he's gotthe platinum star, yeah.
Robert Hean (11:31):
Well, I'll ask him to send me the gold one.
I'll put it up behind theskateboards.
Walt Sparling (11:34):
There you go.
Maybe you can get it put on askateboard.
Oh, even better.
So you, I'm going to probablymurder these titles.
I'm going to give the briefversion of what I recall, and
then you give us the actualtitles.
Robert Hean (11:50):
One was about postmortems and lessons learned.
Yes, I think the official titleis lessons learned in
postmortems.
Walt Sparling (11:55):
Oh well, I was close, yeah.
And then there's self-care forproject managers yes, and
project hacks yeah, you got it.
How to?
Basically how to shorten andmake your projects a little
faster.
I haven't taken that one yet.
Robert Hean (12:16):
Yeah, I can't say cutting corners, because that
implies we're not doingsomething we need to do.
It's more in the whole pointwith pure is like you know it's
it's experiential instruction,it's not just a wrote by the
book which can be valuable, andthat has helped me flesh out my
my understanding.
But the whole project hacksthing was like hey, this is what
(12:38):
you know, I learned in myuniversity course that I briefly
had on project management, buthow does that actually interface
with reality?
You know what?
What do I need to do?
Or what can I do differently inin a real world project that
still gets the job done and makesure we're compliant and it's
safe, and all that that can bequicker to your point or more
efficient or different or betterfor the team.
Walt Sparling (13:00):
So could you give us kind of a little like a
short summary of each one ofthese as far as how they would
be beneficial for someone thattakes the pure management
credential and takes yourcourses?
Oh, I'd love to Beside just thePDUs?
Robert Hean (13:17):
Oh, of course.
So I'll start with the projecthacks.
I briefly spoke about it, butagain, it's applying what I have
learned through painfulexperience in projects and
trying to apply the theoreticalknowledge I've picked up or have
been told with real worldexpectations and what actually
happens, as well as some thingsthat I've just discovered that
work better or not.
(13:37):
Um, I was talking to Joe aboutit and I think, if you've read
Harry Potter, uh, there's acharacter in there who writes
notes in the margins of thistextbook like, no, no, it's
better to do it this way, and hecrosses things out and changes
things, and it's that kind ofknowledge.
It's someone who's done it whorealizes, yeah, this is a good
start.
However, if we do it a littlebit differently a little bit
more of this, a little bit lessof that, it'll be better for us
(14:00):
and more, more good.
Bad way to put it.
Um, the lessons learned andpostmortems to me is kind of
closer to my heart.
I've realized that projects wetend to fall into this, thinking
that projects are about doingthe thing build the skyscraper,
you know, to launch the ship,implement the system and we
(14:21):
forget that there's peopleinvolved.
Yeah, and those people can alsobe improved throughout the
project.
My own experience thinking back, you know joining a project
team was a massive shift in whatI thought I'd want to do with
my career and I feel like it'sbeen a very good shift.
You know I can't A B test thisand compare them, um, but we
need to take time from ourprojects and stop and sit down
(14:44):
on a regular basis, not just atthe end of it, as I was
initially taught, but throughoutthe project to learn.
We need to stop and review whathappened and why so we can be
better next time and share thatknowledge.
Um, we were briefly speakingearlier and we don't want to
like keep that to ourselves orrealize other people are keeping
it to themselves.
Walt Sparling (15:02):
Right, and that's one of the one of the things I
believe in and I there seems tobe an understanding that lessons
learned are done at the end ofa project and to me that's like
the worst time you know if it'sa one-off.
You know very unique.
Yes, all projects are unique,but I mean like you might build
the same kind of building 20times but you learn a little
(15:23):
something each time, and itmight be five buildings before
your change order log shrinksway down, because by then you've
got all the stuff implementedinto the other buildings that
you missed on the first five.
Robert Hean (15:37):
Yeah, you finally figure it out.
Walt Sparling (15:38):
Yeah, so project management is just working and
it is a learning experience.
Robert Hean (15:45):
As you were describing that, walt, I was
thinking on our house, we have atankless water heater Great, uh
, every year or two we have to,you know, do some maintenance on
it.
And so I had a guy come out andperform maintenance and I was I
hope I was smart I actually,like, took photos and video of
him doing it and I saved that.
So next time I have to do it, Ican learn from that.
That's a lesson learned.
(16:06):
You know very simple example,but now I don't have to call a
technician to come out and paythem.
You know hundreds of dollars todo this simple thing that I can
do.
Now, okay, where was I?
Ooh, self-care.
Self-care for project managerswas the first one I started with
, and I I proposed that as atopic because I realized in my
career that I've been insituations at work where it is
(16:27):
stressful and I'm definitelyunderselling it, but you know,
there was one job where I waspulled off a project, an entire
department.
I wasn't allowed to work withthem for some reason.
I did something horrible and ittook them three months to tell
me why, and it's because Iposted an update in a way that
one person didn't like oh, wow,yeah, it was like.
So then we had this likediscussion with me, my manager,
(16:52):
our senior director and theperson who didn't like what I
did, and I was like, really Likeyou.
You left me hanging for threemonths and took this drastic
action and denied me a promotionbecause of this and no one told
me for 90 days.
And what I realized I starteddoing in the middle was I had
taken from my martial artstraining meditation, and started
meditating, you know, just 10or 15 minutes at the end of the
(17:13):
day to calm down that stress andthat mental like just churn.
And then I realized, wait aminute, I bet there's a ton of
people out there who couldbenefit from some of these ideas
.
And some people have told mehey, rob, these are like things
you tell your kid eat yourvegetables and exercise.
I'm like, yes, that's becauseit's correct.
Yes and yes, because somepeople don't have that knowledge
(17:35):
.
Like it's easy to forget thatnot everyone grows up with these
tools or these habits or theseunderstandings.
And if we can give them alittle bit of that like again,
you don't have to do all theself-care stuff, but if you take
a five minute walk every day,that can help your mental state
and your energy and everythingUm.
So I realized that would couldhave a huge impact on project
managers because spoiler alertour jobs tend to be a little bit
(17:57):
stressful sometimes.
Walt Sparling (17:59):
Well, they're kind of almost all of these tie
together.
You know you've learned uh overtime that uh breaks and the
eating, your vegetables and theexercise helps you be better
while you.
That's a lessons learned.
Yeah, that may clear up yourmind to do some project hacks
and make your projects moreefficient.
Robert Hean (18:22):
I'll see if I can get a little diagram going
showing how these all feed eachother.
Walt Sparling (18:26):
Well, I think probably my second favorite PM
topic is probably lessonslearned, first being
communication, because they'reboth critical.
Yes, my second favorite PMtopic is probably lessons
learned, first beingcommunication, because they're
both critical.
Yeah, and for especially ifyou're doing repeat type
projects or you're working onlarge teams or within companies
that have multiple teams, and ifyour projects whether they're
(18:50):
side by side or they'redifferent timeframes anytime you
can share information on whatyou've learned with another
teammate on another project, youhave the potential to save them
stress, money, schedule, etc.
So that's one of the reasons Ilike doing lessons learned
(19:10):
ongoing instead of waiting tillthe end of a project.
Robert Hean (19:14):
Yeah, it's.
I've had a couple of timeswhere someone has tripped over a
note.
I left somewhere and said, hey,that was really helpful, and
like that feeling of oh, like Ididn't even have to think about
it, I just wrote this thing down.
Two years ago, whenever andsomeone tripped over this thing,
I wrote, um, the silliestexample I can think of.
I was at a company and we had acoffee machine, one of those
(19:35):
automated ones.
You can select your drink andpush a button and it would jam
every once in a while.
And so I documented how tounjam the thing.
And you know, you open it upand you just dump out the
grounds and you put the thingback in.
Very simple I left the companyand two years later I had a
friend who was still there andhe said hey, rob, I left the
company and two years later Ihad a friend who was still there
and he said, hey, rob, peopleare still using that document,
(19:55):
like years later, to unclog thecoffee machine.
And I was like there's a win.
Walt Sparling (20:00):
Absolutely.
I've done similar stuff.
We had an intranet.
Well, actually, on the lastplace, we had a SharePoint site
and I was the lead, so I wouldpost information on things that
the teammates had to do as partof their job.
But when they would asksomething one of the things you
know my managers would say stoptelling them how to do it, let
(20:24):
them learn themselves.
And so I would create a littlelibrary of stuff that I would do
and I know other people arestruggling with it and I would
do like little snag it videos orscreen captures and little
white papers, but I'd let themtry.
And what did you try?
This Did you try?
Did you go look up the help?
Yeah, I've done all that.
All right, here, go here andhere's a little instruction
(20:46):
video or something like oh myGod, why don't you just give
that to me in the beginning?
I'm like, well, what would youhave learned?
Robert Hean (20:53):
Yeah, I use a similar trick, walt.
I do my best to document andshare those process things and I
do my best to make sure it'seasily accessible.
So when someone says, hey, rob,how do I do this, my first like
knee jerk is well, whathappened when you followed the
instructions?
And they go?
What instructions I go?
(21:14):
Well, what did you try lookingfor?
Well nothing, well go look forsomething Exactly.
Walt Sparling (21:17):
Yeah, help you learn, but not going to spoon
feed you.
Robert Hean (21:20):
Yeah, I teach it.
You know, teach someone to fisheat eat for a day.
Wait, not how to go.
Give him a fish eat for a day.
Teach him to fish eat for alifetime, kind of thing,
something like that.
Yeah.
Walt Sparling (21:28):
All right.
So lessons learned andpostmortems, self-care for
project managers and projecthacks they all sound like very
usable topics, very usefultopics, I sure hope so.
Robert Hean (21:45):
You know I say that half jokingly, but those are
things I use, if not daily, youknow weekly.
For sure, the self-care is adaily, if not hourly thing.
I'm constantly like how do Imake sure I'm okay, so then I
can help others?
Um, but yeah, all those thingsI I find myself using all the
time, which is why I chose them.
Walt Sparling (22:04):
So I got an interesting uh ask.
Usually the interviews that Ido are kind of who you are, what
you do, where you live.
You know, favorite, favoritetools, all that.
Yours is a little differentbecause we really were focusing
on the pure stuff.
But one of the things I've doneat the end of the normal
(22:24):
interviews is do, did you know?
And in the conversations thatI've had with you over the last
year I'd say you seem like a guythat probably has some kind of
interesting.
Did you know that you couldcontribute to the audience?
Robert Hean (22:41):
uh, I do.
Is there any particular topicor slice of my reality you would
like a?
Did you know from walt?
Walt Sparling (22:46):
no, just random, that's the whole point something
unique all.
Robert Hean (22:50):
All right.
Well, I have been to everycontinent in the world with one
exception, and the exception isAustralia.
Oh, so I've been very fortunate.
Growing up, my parents decided,hey, we don't want a big TV.
You know, if the TV dies wemight get another one, but
they're not going to buy thebiggest and best.
My mom focused on travel.
She wanted me to get out andsee the world and she enjoyed
(23:11):
travel.
And my mom focused on travel.
She wanted me to get out andsee the world and she enjoyed
travel.
And that resulted in me goingto places like the Galapagos
Islands I've been to.
I've been north of the Arcticcircle I can't say the North
pole, cause I haven't been, youknow, on the North pole but I've
been to Svalbard, which isnorth of the Arctic circle polar
bears, 24 hour daylight, kindof thing and I've been south of
the Arctic circle, on the otherend.
So I've stepped foot onAntarctica, traveled extensively
(23:34):
, I've circumnavigated the globeon a cruise ship and then spent
a lot of time traveling in highschool on a tall ship, so
sailing, but never managed tomake it to Oceania.
So I haven't been to Australiaor New Zealand yet.
That's my next thing.
Walt Sparling (23:51):
That is really cool, especially the um the
polls.
I mean, how many people can saythat they've done that?
Robert Hean (23:59):
Not many.
And it's the crazy thing inSvalbard it's illegal to go
outside of the town without agun, just in case a polar bear
comes at you.
And we would get off and go onthese little X, you know little
walks around the shoreline orwhatever, and the guides, you
would hear them locking andloading their weapons Again,
just in case a polar beardecides to come try and get one
of us, and we wouldn't go nearthem.
(24:21):
But if one came out of nowhereI was like, oh geez, like
they're locked and loaded readyto go, wow.
Walt Sparling (24:28):
That is cool.
Yeah, I've been to a fewcontinents.
That is cool.
Yeah, I've, um, I've been to afew continents, but it,
interestingly enough and I waswatching a screensaver video
today the one place that I is onmy bucket list that I have not
gone is right here in the U?
S well, us and Canada isNiagara falls.
I, okay, I cannot wait actuallyto see the good stuff.
(24:49):
Apparently, you got to go toCanada, uh side, that's where
all the best views are.
Robert Hean (24:55):
Oh, I, I haven't been there either.
I only know it from you, knowmedia, Uh, but I know the
Canadian side is like the top ofthe falls right, when you can
look down and see it all,Whereas the U S side?
Walt Sparling (25:15):
you can take the boats out under the falls and,
wow, that's pretty exciting.
Well, robert, I appreciate youcoming on and, uh, I'm thinking
we'll probably get you back on,maybe do a more normal interview
, get know a little bit moreabout you and, uh, down the road
.
Robert Hean (25:24):
How do you think?
Thank you so much.
Well, I'd love to come back and, uh, just continue our
discussion.
Walt Sparling (25:28):
It's been great, and maybe next time we'll do
video so you can show off yourskateboards.
Robert Hean (25:37):
Oh yeah, I, you know, I, I shred very hard, I
think, is the right phrase.
Walt Sparling (25:42):
All right, robert , I appreciate you coming on and
, for everyone else, we'll seeyou in the next episode of PM
Mastery.
Robert Hean (25:46):
Yeah, thank you all , thank you all.
Intro/Outro (25:47):
Thanks for listening to the PM Mastery
podcast at wwwpm-masterycom.
Be sure to subscribe in yourpodcast player.
Until next time, keep workingon your craft.
Welcome to the PM Mastery Podcast.
This podcast is all abouthelping you master your project
management skills by sharingtips, tricks, tools and training
to get you to the next level,while sharing the stories of
other project managers on theirjourney in project management.
And now here's your host, waltSparling.
Walt Sparling (00:36):
Welcome everybody to the current edition of PM
Mastery, and today I have withme Robert Heen.
Welcome, robert.
Robert Hean (00:44):
Thank you, Walt.
I really appreciate being hereand having a chance to just chat
about project management.
It's an interesting field andsomething that I really enjoy.
Walt Sparling (00:53):
Cool, I'm glad you do.
I kind of like it too.
Awesome.
Well, I'm glad we're here.
So we have not.
We've chatted a few times.
We're working on a jointproject, or we worked on a joint
project and we've interacted afew times I think we were on a
video together recently butdon't know a lot about you other
(01:16):
than what I've learned in ourproject, so why don't you tell
us what it is you do?
Robert Hean (01:24):
That is a great question, walt.
Professionally, I'm a systemsmanager, so that means I work
with teams to figure out how thevarious systems they work on or
need to use, typically with,like HR, human resources.
My career started ininformation technology, though,
so I was the guy who woulddeliver your new laptop or your
monitor and just plug it in andwalk away.
Technology, though, so I wasthe guy who would deliver your
(01:45):
new laptop or your monitor andjust plug it in and walk away.
Um, and since then the arc hasbeen like it help desk drone,
for lack of a better term Um.
And then I got pulled on aproject teams within a few
months and I was very lucky.
The director of it said, hey, Ithink you'll like project work.
And I said, yeah, that soundslike fun.
And I became the projectmanagement module expert for an
(02:07):
ERP, an enterprise resourceplanning system, and I knew
nothing about project managementand I knew nothing about that
ERP, except how to install it onpeople's computers.
And they told me I had to go tothese project managers who have
been in the field for 20, 30years in construction and ship
development and building thingsand tell them they had to go
away from paper and go to thisnew system, and that's that was
(02:30):
my introduction to both projectmanagement but also like big
scale systems, and it reallytaught me that like I've never
seen terror in someone's eyes,like if you look in someone's
eyes and you see their peopleshrink, like in the movies, and
like they're terrified.
I've only seen that once andthat's when I had to tell a guy
you can't write down a paperrequisition form anymore, you
(02:51):
have to use this computerprogram, and that that reminded
me like the systems we haveexist to make our lives easier
and help us do things, whateverthat system is our online
banking, our steel requisitioncomputer, whatever, um, but
there's humans involved and likesomehow these humans have to
use the system to do their job.
They don't care about thesystem, and so that's why that's
(03:12):
how I've tracked my career isto help people like that steel
worker do his job, do what hewants to do, take care of his
family and not have to fightwith the platform.
Walt Sparling (03:22):
I'm with you there.
I mean, when I was in IT formany years and one of my goals
was to make things easier forthe users, you know the the
company would say we want themto learn this software and start
using this and be like, okay,what kind of training are we
going to do?
They'll learn as they go.
No, that's not going to work.
I think we should do training.
(03:43):
So we would do training andthen I would write I created an
intranet at one firm and then Iautomated a bunch of their paper
stuff into the intranet so theycould fill out their forms, and
it was all about how is itgoing to make things easier and
more efficient?
Love that kind of stuff.
Robert Hean (04:00):
Yeah, and that's a great point.
A lot of these systems, eventoday, they claim, oh, your
users just open it up and theycan use it.
And, like I, fall into thatbucket.
Like I like the challenge ofhey, here's a system and here's
a at the time a paper manual ornow an online guide.
Like I like that challenge.
For me it's I joke, it's likeuntangling Christmas lights.
(04:20):
It just gives me this weirdsense of satisfaction.
Lights, it just gives me thisweird sense of satisfaction.
Um, but I also acknowledge thatmany people don't have the time
, the energy to do that.
They just want to go in and dotheir job.
Why they shouldn't have tofight with the system.
They need that enablement, theyneed that resource to help them
figure this new thing out.
That can be threatening,because they might feel like,
hey, am I going to get fired ifI don't know how to do this
(04:40):
thing.
Walt Sparling (04:41):
Yeah, and there there's so much and there's so
much in there's so much scienceto just the interface.
You know how, how do you get,how do you do the prompts.
You know what is it going tomake this person feel
comfortable going through anddoing it.
So, yeah, different differentworld.
Robert Hean (04:58):
Right, it's um, my, uh.
My aunt tells me stories, youknow she got into like digital
media when she was going throughcollege and she was telling me
I forget if she saw thisfirsthand or, you know, heard
someone working on it but someof the first computer mice, they
would sit down, someone, youknow the people who invented it
would sit someone down at acomputer and they would take the
(05:19):
mouse and they would put it upon the screen over the cursor to
like move it around.
And all the engineers arehorrified, like no, it goes on
the desk, like why are youputting it there?
Something that the engineerthought was intuitive, you know
might not be.
And so, to your point, you haveto invest in this.
And how do you make the systemas easy to use as possible, you
know, for the average person whohas to use it?
Walt Sparling (05:49):
No, so it sounds like you have a fun job.
Robert Hean (05:50):
Now, that's not all you do.
What else do you do?
I definitely don't skateboard.
Sorry, I gotta call this out.
Multiple people have asked meif I skateboard or snowboard.
Um, that one my aunt gave me.
Walt Sparling (05:58):
Well, before you go too far, and I can edit this
out.
Robert Hean (06:01):
This is audio only oh, audio only even better.
Thank you, yeah, oh, so I canslouch.
Intro/Outro (06:08):
Okay.
Robert Hean (06:08):
Yeah, you don't have to, and maybe maybe leave
this in because it's funny.
Um, uh, you know, uh, what do Ido in my spare time?
Well, that's a great question.
Behind me on the wall there's acouple of skateboard decks.
So the thing you stand on on askateboard.
Um, and when I have meetingsand things, people ask me, rob,
you must be a skateboarder.
And I say, absolutely not, Ilike the art that's on them.
(06:30):
Uh, my aunt had one.
Someone left it at her house,like a house guest just left
their skateboard, and so shegave it to me, thinking I might
like it.
I hung it on the wall.
It looks pretty.
Uh, I've got another one withan owl on it from a local artist
and I figured, hey, I'llsupport this artist, and it
looks kind of neat.
Walt Sparling (06:45):
Yeah, well, I like it, I can see it.
We're just not sharing it onfor video.
Robert Hean (06:51):
Oh yeah, totally fine.
Um, the other thing I do a lot,though, is martial arts, and
it's interesting.
I started in college as a gymclass and this kind of ties back
into my arc with systems, andpart of this martial art is
learning how to instruct andteach.
So the idea is, by the timeyou're a black belt martial
artist, you can fight and youknow forms and do the flying
(07:12):
kicks and stuff.
I can't really do the flyingkicks I'm still working on that
one but you can also teach abeginner.
You could take someone who'sinterested but doesn't know
anything and teach themeverything to become a black
belt, and teach them everythingto become a black belt.
And that skill of like bridgingthe gap, taking someone who is
(07:32):
at you know at some point ofexpertise and helping them get
more points of expertise hasbeen another common thread, and
that can be expressed throughthat steel worker who needs to,
you know, put in the requisition, or other people on my team
learning project management, orother people out in the world
who want to learn from us on howto better manage their projects
.
And that connection physicallyin a martial art is easier
because you're right there infront of me, but through the
(07:55):
online learning platforms isalso very strong, because you
can reach out and connect withdozens, hundreds, thousands of
people and help them improve aswell.
Walt Sparling (08:04):
Well, the cool thing with the in-person stuff
is, when they don't do somethingright, you can smack them.
But you know, when you'reonline it's a little harder.
Robert Hean (08:13):
You gotta yeah, I, fortunately, you know I haven't
had to smack anyone, but you'reright.
Well, like it's interestingthinking in person and I do a
lot of online learnings on likeYouTube that are live, so
everyone can see me and I justsee a chat window and like
that's good because many peoplecan interact and hopefully they
ask questions and I alwaysencourage them like use the chat
(08:33):
, let me know what doesn't makesense.
But it's hard to figure outwith this one way medium of just
you're watching or justlistening.
How can I help that personimprove?
And that really shifts how Iapproach it.
Because you're absolutely right.
If I see someone do a form andit's wrong, I can point at their
leg or whatever and say youstepped the wrong way.
If one of my online learningstudents is following the course
(08:54):
and they answer a quiz questionwrong, I might never know Right
.
So how do we set them up forsuccess when we we don't see
what's happening?
Walt Sparling (09:05):
so, training, teaching, you like, doing that,
and one of the reasons thatyou're on here, or the main
reason, is we just work togetheron a project, and a lot of the
interviews that have, uh, beenaired in the last probably month
and a half have been from otherinstructors who are in what's
(09:31):
called the pure program, thepure project manager credential
credential, that's right caughton the certification.
We work together along with allthese other project manager
management instructors on whatwas called the pure project
manager credential, and it'sthrough pure project management
(09:53):
Alliance yeah which is headed byJoseph Phillips, which I
believe both of us have quite ahistory with with Joe over the
years super nice guy yeah, I.
Robert Hean (10:08):
I bumped into Joe, actually thinking back to my
first job in it.
Moving on to project teams, theit director gave me a book on
project management.
It was Joe's first book thatwent through on project
management and I didn't realizethat for years after I've been
working with him.
I pulled it off the shelf.
I was like, oh, look at this,here's this book written by you.
(10:29):
And he kind of laughed and said, yeah, that was one of the
first ones I did.
Um, so, fast forward in mycareer, I was on LinkedIn or
something, and his team neededsome help you know, proofing
questions or doing some smallwork.
And I said, yeah, I'd love todo that.
And my thinking was, hey, thiswill help me understand project
management better, but also helpme help others understand
project management better.
(10:50):
So again thinking, how do Ihelp out the other people who,
you know, don't have the time orthe energy or the effort to
suffer through the thing?
What can I do to help elevatethem in some way?
And it's since evolved to yourpoint into this partnership with
like 25 other project managerson this credential.
Walt Sparling (11:08):
Yeah, it's powerful.
So you did, I believe, threecourses, or I think you got the
gold star.
Um, there's a gold star.
Well, for the most courses, Ithink.
I don't think I think a coupleof people did too, but I don't
know if I don't know, if anyoneelse that did three, except for
Joe.
Well, joe, you know he's gotthe platinum star, yeah.
Robert Hean (11:31):
Well, I'll ask him to send me the gold one.
I'll put it up behind theskateboards.
Walt Sparling (11:34):
There you go.
Maybe you can get it put on askateboard.
Oh, even better.
So you, I'm going to probablymurder these titles.
I'm going to give the briefversion of what I recall, and
then you give us the actualtitles.
Robert Hean (11:50):
One was about postmortems and lessons learned.
Yes, I think the official titleis lessons learned in
postmortems.
Walt Sparling (11:55):
Oh well, I was close, yeah.
And then there's self-care forproject managers yes, and
project hacks yeah, you got it.
How to?
Basically how to shorten andmake your projects a little
faster.
I haven't taken that one yet.
Robert Hean (12:16):
Yeah, I can't say cutting corners, because that
implies we're not doingsomething we need to do.
It's more in the whole pointwith pure is like you know it's
it's experiential instruction,it's not just a wrote by the
book which can be valuable, andthat has helped me flesh out my
my understanding.
But the whole project hacksthing was like hey, this is what
(12:38):
you know, I learned in myuniversity course that I briefly
had on project management, buthow does that actually interface
with reality?
You know what?
What do I need to do?
Or what can I do differently inin a real world project that
still gets the job done and makesure we're compliant and it's
safe, and all that that can bequicker to your point or more
efficient or different or betterfor the team.
Walt Sparling (13:00):
So could you give us kind of a little like a
short summary of each one ofthese as far as how they would
be beneficial for someone thattakes the pure management
credential and takes yourcourses?
Oh, I'd love to Beside just thePDUs?
Robert Hean (13:17):
Oh, of course.
So I'll start with the projecthacks.
I briefly spoke about it, butagain, it's applying what I have
learned through painfulexperience in projects and
trying to apply the theoreticalknowledge I've picked up or have
been told with real worldexpectations and what actually
happens, as well as some thingsthat I've just discovered that
work better or not.
(13:37):
Um, I was talking to Joe aboutit and I think, if you've read
Harry Potter, uh, there's acharacter in there who writes
notes in the margins of thistextbook like, no, no, it's
better to do it this way, and hecrosses things out and changes
things, and it's that kind ofknowledge.
It's someone who's done it whorealizes, yeah, this is a good
start.
However, if we do it a littlebit differently a little bit
more of this, a little bit lessof that, it'll be better for us
(14:00):
and more, more good.
Bad way to put it.
Um, the lessons learned andpostmortems to me is kind of
closer to my heart.
I've realized that projects wetend to fall into this, thinking
that projects are about doingthe thing build the skyscraper,
you know, to launch the ship,implement the system and we
(14:21):
forget that there's peopleinvolved.
Yeah, and those people can alsobe improved throughout the
project.
My own experience thinking back, you know joining a project
team was a massive shift in whatI thought I'd want to do with
my career and I feel like it'sbeen a very good shift.
You know I can't A B test thisand compare them, um, but we
need to take time from ourprojects and stop and sit down
(14:44):
on a regular basis, not just atthe end of it, as I was
initially taught, but throughoutthe project to learn.
We need to stop and review whathappened and why so we can be
better next time and share thatknowledge.
Um, we were briefly speakingearlier and we don't want to
like keep that to ourselves orrealize other people are keeping
it to themselves.
Walt Sparling (15:02):
Right, and that's one of the one of the things I
believe in and I there seems tobe an understanding that lessons
learned are done at the end ofa project and to me that's like
the worst time you know if it'sa one-off.
You know very unique.
Yes, all projects are unique,but I mean like you might build
the same kind of building 20times but you learn a little
(15:23):
something each time, and itmight be five buildings before
your change order log shrinksway down, because by then you've
got all the stuff implementedinto the other buildings that
you missed on the first five.
Robert Hean (15:37):
Yeah, you finally figure it out.
Walt Sparling (15:38):
Yeah, so project management is just working and
it is a learning experience.
Robert Hean (15:45):
As you were describing that, walt, I was
thinking on our house, we have atankless water heater Great, uh
, every year or two we have to,you know, do some maintenance on
it.
And so I had a guy come out andperform maintenance and I was I
hope I was smart I actually,like, took photos and video of
him doing it and I saved that.
So next time I have to do it, Ican learn from that.
That's a lesson learned.
(16:06):
You know very simple example,but now I don't have to call a
technician to come out and paythem.
You know hundreds of dollars todo this simple thing that I can
do.
Now, okay, where was I?
Ooh, self-care.
Self-care for project managerswas the first one I started with
, and I I proposed that as atopic because I realized in my
career that I've been insituations at work where it is
(16:27):
stressful and I'm definitelyunderselling it, but you know,
there was one job where I waspulled off a project, an entire
department.
I wasn't allowed to work withthem for some reason.
I did something horrible and ittook them three months to tell
me why, and it's because Iposted an update in a way that
one person didn't like oh, wow,yeah, it was like.
So then we had this likediscussion with me, my manager,
(16:52):
our senior director and theperson who didn't like what I
did, and I was like, really Likeyou.
You left me hanging for threemonths and took this drastic
action and denied me a promotionbecause of this and no one told
me for 90 days.
And what I realized I starteddoing in the middle was I had
taken from my martial artstraining meditation, and started
meditating, you know, just 10or 15 minutes at the end of the
(17:13):
day to calm down that stress andthat mental like just churn.
And then I realized, wait aminute, I bet there's a ton of
people out there who couldbenefit from some of these ideas
.
And some people have told mehey, rob, these are like things
you tell your kid eat yourvegetables and exercise.
I'm like, yes, that's becauseit's correct.
Yes and yes, because somepeople don't have that knowledge
(17:35):
.
Like it's easy to forget thatnot everyone grows up with these
tools or these habits or theseunderstandings.
And if we can give them alittle bit of that like again,
you don't have to do all theself-care stuff, but if you take
a five minute walk every day,that can help your mental state
and your energy and everythingUm.
So I realized that would couldhave a huge impact on project
managers because spoiler alertour jobs tend to be a little bit
(17:57):
stressful sometimes.
Walt Sparling (17:59):
Well, they're kind of almost all of these tie
together.
You know you've learned uh overtime that uh breaks and the
eating, your vegetables and theexercise helps you be better
while you.
That's a lessons learned.
Yeah, that may clear up yourmind to do some project hacks
and make your projects moreefficient.
Robert Hean (18:22):
I'll see if I can get a little diagram going
showing how these all feed eachother.
Walt Sparling (18:26):
Well, I think probably my second favorite PM
topic is probably lessonslearned, first being
communication, because they'reboth critical.
Yes, my second favorite PMtopic is probably lessons
learned, first beingcommunication, because they're
both critical.
Yeah, and for especially ifyou're doing repeat type
projects or you're working onlarge teams or within companies
that have multiple teams, and ifyour projects whether they're
(18:50):
side by side or they'redifferent timeframes anytime you
can share information on whatyou've learned with another
teammate on another project, youhave the potential to save them
stress, money, schedule, etc.
So that's one of the reasons Ilike doing lessons learned
(19:10):
ongoing instead of waiting tillthe end of a project.
Robert Hean (19:14):
Yeah, it's.
I've had a couple of timeswhere someone has tripped over a
note.
I left somewhere and said, hey,that was really helpful, and
like that feeling of oh, like Ididn't even have to think about
it, I just wrote this thing down.
Two years ago, whenever andsomeone tripped over this thing,
I wrote, um, the silliestexample I can think of.
I was at a company and we had acoffee machine, one of those
(19:35):
automated ones.
You can select your drink andpush a button and it would jam
every once in a while.
And so I documented how tounjam the thing.
And you know, you open it upand you just dump out the
grounds and you put the thingback in.
Very simple I left the companyand two years later I had a
friend who was still there andhe said hey, rob, I left the
company and two years later Ihad a friend who was still there
and he said, hey, rob, peopleare still using that document,
(19:55):
like years later, to unclog thecoffee machine.
And I was like there's a win.
Walt Sparling (20:00):
Absolutely.
I've done similar stuff.
We had an intranet.
Well, actually, on the lastplace, we had a SharePoint site
and I was the lead, so I wouldpost information on things that
the teammates had to do as partof their job.
But when they would asksomething one of the things you
know my managers would say stoptelling them how to do it, let
(20:24):
them learn themselves.
And so I would create a littlelibrary of stuff that I would do
and I know other people arestruggling with it and I would
do like little snag it videos orscreen captures and little
white papers, but I'd let themtry.
And what did you try?
This Did you try?
Did you go look up the help?
Yeah, I've done all that.
All right, here, go here andhere's a little instruction
(20:46):
video or something like oh myGod, why don't you just give
that to me in the beginning?
I'm like, well, what would youhave learned?
Robert Hean (20:53):
Yeah, I use a similar trick, walt.
I do my best to document andshare those process things and I
do my best to make sure it'seasily accessible.
So when someone says, hey, rob,how do I do this, my first like
knee jerk is well, whathappened when you followed the
instructions?
And they go?
What instructions I go?
(21:14):
Well, what did you try lookingfor?
Well nothing, well go look forsomething Exactly.
Walt Sparling (21:17):
Yeah, help you learn, but not going to spoon
feed you.
Robert Hean (21:20):
Yeah, I teach it.
You know, teach someone to fisheat eat for a day.
Wait, not how to go.
Give him a fish eat for a day.
Teach him to fish eat for alifetime, kind of thing,
something like that.
Yeah.
Walt Sparling (21:28):
All right.
So lessons learned andpostmortems, self-care for
project managers and projecthacks they all sound like very
usable topics, very usefultopics, I sure hope so.
Robert Hean (21:45):
You know I say that half jokingly, but those are
things I use, if not daily, youknow weekly.
For sure, the self-care is adaily, if not hourly thing.
I'm constantly like how do Imake sure I'm okay, so then I
can help others?
Um, but yeah, all those thingsI I find myself using all the
time, which is why I chose them.
Walt Sparling (22:04):
So I got an interesting uh ask.
Usually the interviews that Ido are kind of who you are, what
you do, where you live.
You know, favorite, favoritetools, all that.
Yours is a little differentbecause we really were focusing
on the pure stuff.
But one of the things I've doneat the end of the normal
(22:24):
interviews is do, did you know?
And in the conversations thatI've had with you over the last
year I'd say you seem like a guythat probably has some kind of
interesting.
Did you know that you couldcontribute to the audience?
Robert Hean (22:41):
uh, I do.
Is there any particular topicor slice of my reality you would
like a?
Did you know from walt?
Walt Sparling (22:46):
no, just random, that's the whole point something
unique all.
Robert Hean (22:50):
All right.
Well, I have been to everycontinent in the world with one
exception, and the exception isAustralia.
Oh, so I've been very fortunate.
Growing up, my parents decided,hey, we don't want a big TV.
You know, if the TV dies wemight get another one, but
they're not going to buy thebiggest and best.
My mom focused on travel.
She wanted me to get out andsee the world and she enjoyed
(23:11):
travel.
And my mom focused on travel.
She wanted me to get out andsee the world and she enjoyed
travel.
And that resulted in me goingto places like the Galapagos
Islands I've been to.
I've been north of the Arcticcircle I can't say the North
pole, cause I haven't been, youknow, on the North pole but I've
been to Svalbard, which isnorth of the Arctic circle polar
bears, 24 hour daylight, kindof thing and I've been south of
the Arctic circle, on the otherend.
So I've stepped foot onAntarctica, traveled extensively
(23:34):
, I've circumnavigated the globeon a cruise ship and then spent
a lot of time traveling in highschool on a tall ship, so
sailing, but never managed tomake it to Oceania.
So I haven't been to Australiaor New Zealand yet.
That's my next thing.
Walt Sparling (23:51):
That is really cool, especially the um the
polls.
I mean, how many people can saythat they've done that?
Robert Hean (23:59):
Not many.
And it's the crazy thing inSvalbard it's illegal to go
outside of the town without agun, just in case a polar bear
comes at you.
And we would get off and go onthese little X, you know little
walks around the shoreline orwhatever, and the guides, you
would hear them locking andloading their weapons Again,
just in case a polar beardecides to come try and get one
of us, and we wouldn't go nearthem.
(24:21):
But if one came out of nowhereI was like, oh geez, like
they're locked and loaded readyto go, wow.
Walt Sparling (24:28):
That is cool.
Yeah, I've been to a fewcontinents.
That is cool.
Yeah, I've, um, I've been to afew continents, but it,
interestingly enough and I waswatching a screensaver video
today the one place that I is onmy bucket list that I have not
gone is right here in the U?
S well, us and Canada isNiagara falls.
I, okay, I cannot wait actuallyto see the good stuff.
(24:49):
Apparently, you got to go toCanada, uh side, that's where
all the best views are.
Robert Hean (24:55):
Oh, I, I haven't been there either.
I only know it from you, knowmedia, Uh, but I know the
Canadian side is like the top ofthe falls right, when you can
look down and see it all,Whereas the U S side?
Walt Sparling (25:15):
you can take the boats out under the falls and,
wow, that's pretty exciting.
Well, robert, I appreciate youcoming on and, uh, I'm thinking
we'll probably get you back on,maybe do a more normal interview
, get know a little bit moreabout you and, uh, down the road
.
Robert Hean (25:24):
How do you think?
Thank you so much.
Well, I'd love to come back and, uh, just continue our
discussion.
Walt Sparling (25:28):
It's been great, and maybe next time we'll do
video so you can show off yourskateboards.
Robert Hean (25:37):
Oh yeah, I, you know, I, I shred very hard, I
think, is the right phrase.
Walt Sparling (25:42):
All right, robert , I appreciate you coming on and
, for everyone else, we'll seeyou in the next episode of PM
Mastery.
Robert Hean (25:46):
Yeah, thank you all , thank you all.
Intro/Outro (25:47):
Thanks for listening to the PM Mastery
podcast at wwwpm-masterycom.
Be sure to subscribe in yourpodcast player.
Until next time, keep workingon your craft.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.