June 24, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode, Stacey, Dori, and Dr. John examine one of the most elaborate catfishing schemes in recent history. The gang picks apart the Netflix Documentary; Sweet Bobby My Catfish Nightmare. It's a wild story about a London based radio host who endured a nearly ten year relationship with a handsome cardiologist named Bobby, only to find out it was all a fictitious web of cruel deception. Stacey, Dori and Dr. John discuss the psychology behind both catfisher and catfishee, and what causes someone to go to such great lengths to deceive another person.
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Episode Transcript
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Stacey (00:00):
Pod candy. A podcast about cults, crimes, and
killers. Imagine thinking youfound the love of your life, a
handsome cardiologist, kind,attentive, and deeply connected
to your world, only to find outnearly a decade later, he never
(00:23):
existed. That's what happened toKirat Asi, a radio host from
London who was drawn into one ofthe most elaborate and
disturbing catfishing schemesever uncovered in The UK.
Dori (00:35):
Despite the emotional and psychological devastation, no
criminal charges have beenfiled. The story raises big
questions about digital abuse,coercive control, and the limits
of the law, and it's allunraveled in the documentary,
Sweet Bobby on Netflix.
Stacey (00:56):
I'm gonna give the origin of the term catfishing.
The idea of a catfish beingplaced with cod to keep them
lively during shipping is ametaphor for deception. The
catfish, in this case, was thefalse identity used to attract
and deceive the target. Oh mygod. Sweet Bobby.
(02:13):
Sweet Bobby. Okay. Bubby. Bubby.I love how she said Bubby.
Bubby.
Dori (02:17):
Bubby.
Stacey (02:18):
Bubby. So, Jory Yes. This was your pick, and it was
so fascinating. I didn't, youknow, I didn't know what to
expect. I had no idea, nopreconceived information or
knowledge about this idea, aboutthis case.
Dori (02:34):
Yes. I found it last year. I'm so glad we're talking about
it now because nobody that Iknow has seen this. I Me
neither. I've I've suggested tofriends, to family, watch sweet
Bobbie.
Nobody has seen it, so I'm soglad we're talking about it
today. But, yes. So there is a Imean, the crux of this story is
(02:57):
it's a huge spoiler. So I thinkwe should suggest that if people
want to listen to our podcastmaybe after they've actually
watched sweet Bobby, that thatwould probably be best. So now
we're gonna dive into it.
So Yes. Please let's reveal thethe big elephant in the room,
(03:18):
Stacy.
Stacey (03:19):
So her cousin her cousin, Cimran, was the person
catfishing Kirat.
Dori (03:27):
And Her own cousin.
Stacey (03:29):
Own cousin. I have the chills thinking about it. For
nine years, this poor woman wasseeking you know, it's very
important in the culture, IndianIndian culture. Marriage and
family and and all these and andher parents are lovely. And they
just wanted her to be happy, andshe was in a long term
relationship before.
And then this thing startshappening. This this this thing
(03:50):
starts creeping in where she shesees Bobby at a bar because
Bobby exists. She Yes. This isKiara. This is Kiara.
So the story
Dori (03:59):
is about yeah. So it's Kiara who is giving away the
best years of her life becauseof this man who is a real person
who she has seen in a club afterthey've been kinda talking back
and forth for for for threemonths. So it all seems
(04:23):
realistic only to find out thatfor nine years, she has been
communicating with her cousinCimran who creates 64 other
profiles and people. I mean,this is a full time I mean,
(04:43):
think about this, Daisy. You runa thief we were just talking,
like, we have a lot of stuffgoing on in our lives.
Yes. Right? You're a big mom.You've got your business. I'm I
I have to work.
I've got a foster dog. We'rejust one fine time to sleep with
the phone on all night long tomaybe text in the middle of the
(05:07):
night something to your belovedthat you really have never had a
personal conversation with ever,ever.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Instead of messaging, Bobby and I have stopped using
Skype.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Yes. You do. Many times have I caught you out.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But because he's in witness protection, we weren't
allowed to have a video call. Itwas just too risky. Even though
Bobby couldn't speak, he wouldcommunicate just by making some
kind of noise, whether it was atap, a grunt, or whatever it
was. And we'd just fall asleepwith the line open.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Good morning, sweetheart. We've been Skyping
all night. I stayed with you allnight. That was so lovely.
Stacey (06:01):
I don't did she, Dory, did she ever talk to her on the
phone, or was it all throughtext to talk to him on the
phone? No. Remember, it was
Dori (06:08):
the soft voice. There was a time before Bobby went into
the Witness protection.Protection program, and that's
why he couldn't ever meet withher. And then he had this I
mean, there's just so much. Iknow we're just, like, throwing
shit out there.
Stacey (06:26):
I know. We're, throwing shit out.
Dori (06:28):
People are following along. They're probably not. You
gotta watch this. But then he'sin the hospital, but the only
way that he because he had thisdevastating injury, the only way
that they could communicate wasreally through Facebook
Messenger. Or at maybe somepoint, there's been some
(06:49):
whispering from Bobby.
So you even the mother talked toBobby. It's just this quiet
There's a whisper Yes. It'slike, hello, Stacy. I've never
met you before, but you're thelove of my life. Can you hear
me?
Can you hear me? It's been nineyears. We've never met.
Stacey (07:10):
So we're not making fun of this. This is not a joke.
We're just it's justfascinating, and I love this
woman, Kirit. I think she isvery she's gorgeous. Gorgeous.
But it's so sad, Dory, becauseshe's chasing this dream of this
idea that she becomes it'salmost cult like in that she
gets indoctrinated. She getsconvinced, and it just keeps
(07:34):
escalating and escalating andescalating. More calls. She's in
touch with Bobby's cousin.Bobby's she knows who Bobby's
wife is.
He has a baby with this womanwho he says he's divorcing, but
he's never he's been with herthe whole time because he's a
real person that doesn't haveanything to do with her. It was
all fabricated by her cousin whomade up a story about some guy's
life.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
When I think back to the club in Brighton, when I
bumped into Bobby, which was thereal Bobby, that is a sliding
balls moment, but there's somany moments like that. I find
out when Bobby's brother JJadded me on Facebook. It was
actually Simran. Simran haddated JJ in real life, but they
(08:15):
had broken up and the version ofJJ that I'd been introduced to
was fake. Starting from there,every character connected to JJ,
Bobby, everybody is all Simran.
Dori (08:33):
I think you touched on the point, though, that, you know, I
am a single woman who is older,and I never had children. And I
think, like, you touched on thiswith, like, you know, the Indian
culture, a lot of people do get,like, married early. They get
set up with with people thatmaybe they don't know. And but
(08:58):
you mentioned, you know, she hada relationship before this whole
Bobby thing, but she literallygave up her, like, you know,
quote, unquote birthing yearsfor these nine years where you
don't know is she ever going tohave a family now because of her
cousin who at 17 years oldstarted this ruse. And, you
(09:26):
know, once doctor John gets outhere, or doctor John, as we like
to say, I have so many questionsfor him.
Stacey (09:32):
Oh, so many.
Dori (09:33):
All lead to simran. Like, how could somebody do that just
in general, but then to a familymember that you have a good
relationship with Yes. That youlove. Is some psycho level shit
going on.
Stacey (09:53):
Yeah. And I think it escalated. I think it got worse,
but I'm gonna talk to doctorJohn about this, or we're gonna
talk to him. I can't wait to askhim. She seems to have
borderline personality disorder.
Don't know if she's yes. Simran.Maybe she has maybe she has some
sort of you know, besides havinga personality disorder, Simran.
Dori (10:14):
You see, because it must
Stacey (10:17):
have been very, very well constructed because Kirat
was, like, hanging out. I mean,she was hanging on to this. She
never and even when her parentssaid to her, you know, are you
sure? Are you sure? She wasadamant.
This is the man. This is
Dori (10:29):
the man. And I have to
Stacey (10:30):
say her parents were lovely, and so they almost
seemed progressive in the factthat they weren't trying to set
her up. They weren't trying tomake it a, you know, a a match
like they usually do. And well,I shouldn't say usually. Just in
some, you know, Indian culture,they do sometimes have a match.
In a a lot of cultures, thathappens.
And sometimes, it's for goodbecause the family knows the
(10:52):
family. I mean, I'm not sayingit's the right way to fall in
love, but the family knows thefamily. They know where they're
from. They know what they have.They know all these things.
They have a nice boy. You knowwhat
Dori (11:00):
I mean? Ugh. My mother fixed me up with a couple
winners back in the day. I wishthat I was in the culture that
they really knew what they weredoing because Exactly.
Stacey (11:10):
So, you know, our our parents, you know but, you know,
my I have so much to say aboutthat. But, anyway, back to
Skabi.
Dori (11:17):
To see Another episode, Stacy.
Stacey (11:19):
Sweet. Exactly.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Marriage is important. I've always said,
Kira, look. You have to getmarried. And every parent wishes
to be a grandparent. You know?
Speaker 7 (11:29):
She had quite a number of proposals as soon as
she came back from uni, and shealways declined.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
It's not that we haven't helped. It's for her to
make up her mind.
Speaker 7 (11:41):
I want to make sure she's happy, but if the girl
does not get married, I thinkyou'll look down upon. And I
think she feels pressure fromthe community, from the friends,
from the families when theythink, oh my god, why is she
still not married?
Stacey (12:00):
The issue with is like, what is her what is she she's
gotta be sociopathic andborderline.
Dori (12:10):
Yeah. What does she get out of it?
Stacey (12:11):
Like She's even psychopathic. A rush. A rush of
it's I think it's similar towhen people are making a phony
phone call or, you know, stealsomething. It's like a rush of
adrenaline of this thing I'mdoing, and I'm like, god. I'm
getting so good at it.
I think Simran believed it. Ithink there was a part of Simran
Dori (12:33):
that somehow thought she was doing something good. I mean
That is true. Because in the inthe doc Mhmm. They do say that
that, like, that I think thatthey, she and Kyrith had like
the, a separate, you know,discussion obviously, you know,
personally after all thishappened. Mhmm.
(12:54):
And I think that she had toldher, I thought, you know, like,
I was kinda helping you because,you know, you probably had the
relationship before that youknew wasn't gonna work. And then
there that's delusion to me.That is complete and utter
delusion Yes. To create I mean,Kira was, like, online talking
(13:19):
to made up people about Bobbyconstantly and having intimate
moments.
Stacey (13:29):
That was what
Dori (13:30):
I was gonna catch. Yes. Well With her cousin. With her
cousin, not Bobby,
Stacey (13:36):
and that's disgusting. And and, you know, she said, you
know, when in the in the doc,they said, you know, did you
have any, you know, intimateconversation? And she kinda you
know, she was like, I don'twanna say you know? So you get
the you get the impression thatthere was a lot of that about a
lot of, you know, maybe, youknow, texting,
Dori (13:55):
you know, text. Sex. Yeah.
Stacey (13:56):
Texting sex, phone sex, and that's twisted. That's
another level to me that sheallowed like, her cousin was
sitting on the phone or textingher back and, like, playing with
her with that. I mean, that'sjust that's just so abusive and
so it's so manipulative and and,like, it's deceitful deception.
It's betrayal. It's awful.
And it and then then Kiran'sleft with this, like, sick. Now
(14:19):
I'm sure she feels so this isthe thing with cognitive
dissonance. When you realizeyou've done something for a long
period of time that, you know,and that you didn't understand
or come to terms with until youactually did. And then when you
do, you look back and you go,goddamn it. What's wrong with
me?
Like, what kind of psychologicaldamage has this done?
Dori (14:37):
Well, and I think the sad thing is, like, you know, when
she Bubi? When when sheconfronts Bubi at his house
Mhmm. With his wife, Saanj, andthe baby there
Stacey (14:49):
Beautiful girl, by the way. God. Beautiful. He's
gorgeous. He's gorgeous.
Dori (14:53):
Gorgeous. Hello. Hello, sweetheart. Hello, Robin. That's
sweet puppy.
Attractive, Jenna.
Stacey (14:59):
I'm in my fifties.
Dori (15:01):
Yeah. Come on over to America. But I think, like,
when, you know, when the the sadthing is, like, when it all came
to light and the fact that thepolice were very interested in
Bobby's side, because we have tosay, like, Bobby was also
(15:22):
shystid during this whole thing.Simran was using his and his
wife's personal and the baby'spersonal photos for this crazy
ruse, but that the police wereso interested in the Bobby side
(15:44):
and and really, like, wanted tohelp him with his charges. But
poor Kira, there's nothing thatthey would do for her.
So she had to take matters intoher own hands to bring this some
(16:04):
type of of of legality. It
Stacey (16:08):
is so like, I have the chills the whole time we're
talking. Because I'm thinkingabout, you know, a topic of mine
that that is re regret is alwayssomething that I think about,
and I don't like to have regret.And I always talk to my students
about, like, regret. Like, youtook a path. You chose a path,
not this path.
But if you didn't choose thispath, you wouldn't know it was
(16:29):
on this path. So you gotta go tothis path and just trust that
path. And don't think about whatcould have happened. You gotta
go to that path. And there'sthis poor woman, Kirit, who who
goes on this path and keepsgoing.
It's like being in a an abusivemarriage. You're like, well, I
guess I'll just keep it going,and I'll wait until the kids are
older. And I feel like if nineyears from your thirties to your
(16:50):
forties or, you know, somewherein that area is is just mind
Dori (16:55):
You said it's awful. You had said it before. It's very
cult like because
Stacey (17:00):
She isolated her. She quit her job. I mean, she was
she was crying all the time. Imean, it's awful.
Dori (17:04):
Yeah. All of her time was centered around not only Bobby,
but also around all of these,you know, quote, unquote
characters that Cimran created.Because we have to say too, this
all is plausible because Cimran,the cousin, dated Bobby's
(17:27):
brother. So it is thatconnection of reality. So why
wouldn't this be realistic?
But like we're saying, it becamecult like because her whole life
was insulated by all thesepeople that then Simran created.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That didn't exist.
Dori (17:51):
Group of four of us that chat about Bobby once he went
into witness protection program.And now we have three of us that
are in another Facebook groupthat we always chat about, you
know, when he had that terribleaccident. Or now we have a
couple others that we talk aboutwhen, you know, he's getting
(18:12):
divorced from Sanj. And now didhe get back to get I mean, it's
just Yeah. It's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Ultimately, I find 60 profiles.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
60.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
60. Six zero. She used all these different guises
to control me and hold my fearsagainst me.
Stacey (18:37):
The other thing that was so depressing and sad to me is
that this was not Kirette'sbaby. This was Bobby's baby. But
she was willing, Bobby andSandra's baby, which a whole
story was made up about them byfrom Cimran, but they were
always married. This baby andthey picked out clothes for the
baby and got her a gift, got thebaby a gift, him a gift. And
(19:00):
then they had a picture.
Of course, they didn't show hisface. Thank God. But they had he
had the outfit on, she thought,oh, he's wearing what I bought.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
In pictures sent to me, Bobby's son was wearing
clothes that we'd pickedtogether. Unbeknown at the time
to me, those baby photos alreadyexisted on the real Bobby's
Facebook page. Somehow, she hadreverse engineered it to lead me
(19:30):
to pick those clothes. There'seven been times when I've been
with Simran and she'd befiddling on her smartwatch, and
I would get a message fromBobby. Now I realized that she
was messaging me as Bobby whilewith me.
Stacey (19:53):
This woman Simran or this child or whatever she was
when she started, I cannot thethe to have a mind like that, to
be
Dori (20:01):
able to create false identity stories, you are so
good at being bad. It's so funnythat you say that because I was
just thinking, like, with allthese, like, cults and all
these, like, masterminds fromtrue crime, like, if they just
use their evil for good. Like,they're brilliant people. This
(20:22):
woman is a digital mastermind.Yeah.
Yeah. Creative writingmastermind. She's ruined her a
Simran, she's ruined her wholelife. Right. I knew you were
talking
Stacey (20:34):
about Simran because I don't even think she was in
college yet. I mean, she waspretty young. It's really hard
to keep those things consistentwhen you're lying a lot and
making things up. So you have toyou yourself have to be aware of
the consistency of the lies.Okay.
You know what, Dory? Who are webringing in? We're bringing in
(20:55):
the most important therapist onthe planet, doctor John Mayer.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
The doctor is in. Doctor the doctor is in.
Dori (21:09):
The doctor?
Dr. John Mayer (21:10):
As always, I've been chomping at the bit to to
Stacey (21:13):
I know you're chomping in. Chomping in.
Dr. John Mayer (21:15):
I'm chomping at the to get in here.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Anyway John, what
Stacey (21:19):
do you think of what we've been talking about?
Dr. John Mayer (21:21):
My god. Well, first of all, as always, you
both have excellent instinctsand and empathy with what's
going on here. One of thethings, you know, from the start
here is I'd love to see a realpicture of this simmer on
because I just have a a theorythat, you know, they they put a
actor's picture in thedocumentary. You got a feeling
(21:45):
she's not that cute of a girl.Everybody else in this
documentary is so I mean,they're beautiful people from a
to z.
The parents are even just, youknow, various
Dori (21:55):
Yeah.
Dr. John Mayer (21:55):
Older parents. But, anyway, I wanted to see
Cimarron because she had atheory that this is a girl. What
else does she have going on inher life?
Dori (22:05):
That's the thing that is so confounding. She had a
relationship. They talked to,like, some, you know, school
friends, like, that she justlike she she was not like
somebody
Dr. John Mayer (22:19):
kept ended, which just gives you a clue, you
know, what's going on with herthat she couldn't hold this
relationship. That's certainly Imean, that's the low hanging
fruit here is that the Cimarronhas nothing going on in her life
that she's gotta be obsessedwith ruining her cousin's life,
who, like you both said, theymade a good case in the
(22:42):
documentary, she loved hercousin. You know? But her cousin
became a plaything for her. ButI also was thinking that, does
she have to take this incultural context?
I know, not only in in somepatients that I've treated, many
patients I've treated, but Ihave some personal friends who
(23:03):
are Sikhs, and they're of thereligion, the Indian religion of
Sikhs. And this whole thing ofthe pressure to get married, I
don't think there's anothercultural entity that I've ever
witnessed that has such pressurethat marriage and children are,
(23:27):
you know, it's everything. Ithink the parents even said in
the documentary that that'severything, and Kirit constantly
said at the beginning when whenthis first started, I want so
badly to get married and havechildren. You know, we have to
look at it in this culturalcontext of how much pressure
(23:48):
there is for this. So when youwonder why Curit got so deeply
involved and was hanging on tothis, it was because of that
family and cultural andreligious pressure to make this
work.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Marriage is a big deal in our culture. From a very
young age, I dreamed of gettingmarried and having a family
early. That's what matters to memore than anything else. There's
a picture of me as I think I wastwo. My auntie dressed me up in
(24:23):
my mom's wedding outfit.
That's their hopes and dreams aswell.
Stacey (24:29):
Let's just talk about Simran's personality. I mean, I
mentioned borderline. Imentioned sociopathic. I wanna I
wanna hear from you, John, adoctor. What is Simran's
personality disorder?
What is her issue? What is herpsychological problem?
Dr. John Mayer (24:42):
Brings up that brings up a good note for all of
our episodes. Per the ethics inmy field, I can't diagnose her
over the the media, but I cangive some some hints and some
ideas. And there's justspeculation, everyone, in the
audience. This is not a officialdiagnosis because that would be
(25:04):
unethical. But Correct.
You both hit it on the head. Youboth threw out some terms, which
I think are certainly in theballpark of what Simran is is
dealing with. Is shesociopathic? Yeah. Probably, I
underline, probably borderline.
You know? Maybe. That's a very,by the way, serious mental
(25:28):
illness. It's not just somethingto throw out.
Stacey (25:31):
Oh, no. Did I throw out something bad?
Dori (25:33):
I just it's I've read about
Dr. John Mayer (25:35):
all It's fine. No. It's it's it's it's fine.
Dori (25:37):
I mean,
Dr. John Mayer (25:37):
I think it's in
Stacey (25:38):
Some of the characteristics.
Dr. John Mayer (25:39):
Of what could be going on with this this young
lady. But I also thinking of,again, going into this larger
context of these people, theother thing that really hit me
was they're first of all, likewe've said many times, they're
beautiful people. They're alsovery wealthy people. I started
(26:00):
to say that I know people in theSikh community, and I also know
I have a friend who is from notonly the Sikh community, the
Sikh culture, religion, but alsofrom Africa. These are very
wealthy Indian people.
(26:20):
Look at all the leisure timethat these people have. None of
us have the time to becatfishing somebody to the
extent that Cimarron did toKirit and Kirit to spend the
time obsessed with this withthis Bobby. So that's one thing
you have to keep in mind withthese people. Back to Cimarron,
(26:44):
is she mentally disturbed?Probably.
Again, everyone, probably. I'mnot diagnosing. But also, look
at the thrills that a kid wouldget out of this. I have to share
a personal story. When I wasprobably in middle school, I had
a friend whose mother worked forthe phone company, and so she
(27:06):
got unlimited phone time.
Stacey (27:08):
She's such a boomer.
Dr. John Mayer (27:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just kidding. Just
kidding.
Would Keep going. We would get akick out of making crank phone
calls, you know, to people. Wewould spend hours making crank
phone calls, delivering pizzasto the neighbor next door, and
seeing five pizzas delivered.And maybe I shouldn't be saying
this in in on on a broadcast. Weeven called up well, before I
(27:33):
had the idea of becoming apsychologist, we even called up
a psychiatric hospital and triedto get my friend committed.
We were, like, you know, 11years old, 12 years old.
Stacey (27:45):
That's so funny. That's so ironic.
Dr. John Mayer (27:47):
Right. But look at the similarities to the
Cimarron. Is she gettingincredible kicks out of this?
And you also hit on something,Stacy. I think it was you who
talked about the sexuality, youknow, that Kirit didn't wanna
talk about, but I really my earsperked up, and I wondered I
(28:07):
could just picture Cimarronsaying all these sexual
conversations with Kira and kindof getting off on it.
You know? And maybe there wasmore of that that went on than
than we know of, and it would beinteresting if, you know, we
knew what the nature of thatwas.
Stacey (28:28):
So And I really wanted because I can only imagine what
it was. To keep her for nineyears, there's gotta be you
know, like, it's just gross thatthis woman did this to Kira. You
know? I mean, it's just gross.She to put her in that position,
and then she still felt okay.
Dr. John Mayer (28:43):
We haven't talked about and I agree with
you. You I have to preface whatI'm saying here by saying I
agree with you when you talkedabout Kira, and she's admirable
woman, and, you know, she'sgoing after this and not you
know, I I totally agree, butlet's talk about her a little
bit.
Dori (29:06):
Yeah. I was gonna ask you, doctor, about
Stacey (29:09):
What happened to her? What's wrong?
Dori (29:11):
Because how does one keep moving on after having this nine
year chunk of life invested andbe embarrassed by it as well. I
mean, there has to beembarrassment too.
Dr. John Mayer (29:29):
Oh, absolutely. Especially to family members.
You know, oh, when are we gonnameet Bob? Well, that came up a
lot. When are we gonna meetBobby?
When can you bring Bobby to thisget together, etcetera?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Bobby made me feel loved. And given the obstacles,
things were going well. Butdespite this, there's only so
much you can live a relationshiponline, have to be with each
other. But there's always areason why he can't come. It was
(30:04):
really frustrating.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Do you know how much I want to be with you? Do you
know how much I want to lookafter you?
Speaker 7 (30:11):
I was very disappointed as well for him not
turning up and I was trying toconsole Kirat every time but
then she wouldn't discuss herfeelings openly with me thinking
that I will be upset anddistressed about all this.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I do anything.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
The stress of the situation is too much for him
and things start to feeldifferent between us. Because of
the stroke, Bobby's health wasup and down and his mental
health was fragile. He startedto lean on me quite a lot.
Dr. John Mayer (30:52):
Yeah. Let's take a look at cure it and and say,
what would make a person hang inthere ten years? And I think,
again, we have to look at thecultural context of what I
talked about before about thepressures to have a person, to
get married, etcetera. But also,we have to look at the Sikh
(31:14):
religion, is that the Sikhreligion values honesty and
values and truthfulness. Sothere's an element that Kirib
fell into thinking, well, he's aSikh and, you know, we all are
honest and we're truthful toeach other, and so I can trust
(31:35):
him.
I can believe, you know, thateverything he's saying. So
that's another thing we have totake a look at.
Dori (31:46):
Kurate met Bobby in a club. So she knew that this
person was a real person
Dr. John Mayer (31:55):
Yeah.
Dori (31:56):
And that if you can speak more about that, there was a
level of reality to it for herprobably because she actually
met him, but that never reallythey never spoke. They never
talked about it on their ontheir exchanges with Rob Cigran.
Stacey (32:17):
She tried to she tried to talk to him at the bar. She's
like, remember me? I've beentalking to you. He like Well
Dori (32:21):
I know who you are. You know what I mean?
Dr. John Mayer (32:23):
What you're getting at I I don't wanna be
too scientific here, but whatyou're getting at, Dory, is the
concept of intermittentreinforcement. You know, that
she met him. You're right. Thethe one of the very first things
that happened was she actuallymet the real Bobby. She saw him.
And, again, the guy is astunning guy. If you see the
(32:44):
pictures of the club they're in,he was it looked like he was
almost taller than everybodyelse. You know? So he he just
stood out. How could you not,like a magnet, be attracted to
this stunning guy who's in thisclub and almost like the it was
almost like John Travolta in themiddle of, you know, the dance
(33:05):
club.
Stacey (33:06):
Staying alive? Yes. Another boomer comment. Another
boomer comment.
Dori (33:10):
Yeah. Staying alive. Such a boomer.
Dr. John Mayer (33:12):
Your eyes would just go there. So your so she
gets that she gets thatreinforcement. She gets that
reinforcement. She gets thatlittle piece of candy and, you
know, is attracted to this guy.That that was a hook.
You're exactly right, Dory. Andthen Simran was absolutely
brilliant at mind manipulationto give her little pieces and
(33:37):
little reinforcement along theway and hooked her in. But it
still brings me back to, and I'msorry, Kira, because I hope you
are listening to our ourbroadcast as well. What would
drive you to keep hanging onthat long? Cut bait.
You know? There are so many
Stacey (33:58):
That's one of my questions. Cut bait, literally,
like a fish.
Dr. John Mayer (34:01):
Yeah. That's why Like
Dori (34:03):
the bait.
Dr. John Mayer (34:03):
That's why I said
Stacey (34:04):
Well, that was funny.
Dori (34:05):
That was funny. Assurance. There was there was a lot of
that hopeful reassurance that,come on. Like, I am coming into
town, and then they'd never meeteven after the because, you
know, we have to remember, therewere years of the witness
protection program, so he reallycouldn't be out and about. So
(34:29):
that was a brilliant thing fromCimran with also the terrible
injury that, you know, the fauxinjury that he also succumbed to
where they had a photo of him inthe hospital with all the tubes.
So maybe there was that, like,plausible hope of, you know,
(34:52):
well, I'm in the witnessprotection program, so I'm here,
I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna seeyou, but I can't. I can't right
now. I have other things goingon. Is that maybe something,
doctor John, that, like, youkind of, like, for cure it, she
kind of thought, like, this ishope. That's why she keeps going
and going with it.
(35:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
Let me
Dr. John Mayer (35:14):
get back to what I said in terms of the science
of the brain is that thisintermittent reinforcement is so
powerful. It's the most powerfulthing that hooks people onto bad
habits. Know, lifestyle thingsthat people do is is
intermittent reinforcement. Sobut for ten years, it still to
(35:38):
me was very unusual that shehung in
Stacey (35:42):
so
Dr. John Mayer (35:42):
so
Stacey (35:43):
Well, and also, he was married for a little bit of it,
then divorced. She was willingto stick it like, she was his
friend, but she wasn't datinganybody. That's another thing.
It's like she wasn't even withhim. Yeah.
And then when he had a baby,then she was willing see, she
was giving so much of herselfaway to nothing. She was willing
to raise another person's babyfor a fake person. I mean
Dr. John Mayer (36:02):
And again, it goes and it goes to the
brilliant manipulation of Simranbecause, you know, that's what I
thought about with him gettingmarried. As you watch it and you
don't know what the twist isyet, you're going, okay, he's
married, and she's still hangingin there like, I love you, and
I'm behind you even thoughyou're you're getting married to
(36:26):
Sanji and etcetera. Then she hasa child, and you're getting I'm
still, you know, I'm still herefor you, etcetera, etcetera,
rather than bye bye. You know?At at the end of the
documentary, when she finallygoes, okay.
This is enough. I'm going I'mjust gonna go to his house and
knock on the door. I I said tomyself, yeah. Yeah, lady. You
(36:47):
should have done that, you know,ten years ago.
Stacey (36:55):
Can I share something with you guys?
Dr. John Mayer (36:57):
Yes.
Stacey (36:58):
So, you know, it's really interesting that during
this whole process that we'vebeen having together,
specifically together, I haverecovered old memories of things
of manipulation that I've beenin. I was catfished once by a
guy I met. So I met a guy namedSean on a you know, I'm not
(37:18):
telling you his last name. Justa guy at Club Med. I mean, met
him at Club Med.
We had no physical relationship.He liked me, but he was whacked.
He was whacked. But we werehaving this sort of emotional
relationship when we got home onthe phone. And then he told me
he was coming to visit, and thenhe didn't.
And then he told me again, andthen he did it. And then he said
(37:39):
he would come to my turnabout. Ididn't have another date. He
said he'd come, and he didn't.And I felt so taken I I I felt
that I was being manipulated.
I mean, now that I'm lookingback, back then, I was like,
well then, I'd cut it off and Iat least it only lasted three
months.
Dr. John Mayer (37:57):
You see that intermittent reinforcement. You
know, he gave you little piecesof candy, you know, and you're
Right. You were chomping on it.Oh, okay. This is good.
Dori (38:06):
This is
Stacey (38:07):
I was hanging on to an idea of this guy. And I'm not
even and, like, I never evenkissed him. Like, it was just he
was giving me candy. This shewas giving and we're not trying
to point that out. It's it'sjust
Dori (38:18):
funny. He
Stacey (38:19):
was giving me all this, you're right, reinforcement.
Like, I love you.
I'm coming. I'm gonnareinforcement. Like, I love you.
I'm coming. I'm gonna comevisit. It's just now I can't. I
gotta go to my school isrequiring me to stay. Oh, now I
can't come.
Now I can't come. And it itfizzled away and ended. He's now
married with kids.
Dori (38:32):
He's okay. I think
Dr. John Mayer (38:33):
what happened in the in Kiritsky. Yeah. You know,
is that she would get thosetidbits and and there's little
crumbs. And and I wanted tothrow out a term, and it's a
good time to do it. You know, itwas almost Rasputin like, you
know, that he was almost she wasmesmerized and and just
controlled in this almost likecrazy spiritual way by this
(38:57):
whole thing.
And again, I hate to throw bricbracs at Cimarron, but it would
the manipulation techniques werebrilliant for a 17 year old kid
that you know? And and that'sanother reason why it it kept
going with Cimarron is becausethis had to be absolutely a kick
for that girl, you know,absolutely getting her jollies
(39:19):
off the fact that I got mycousin so twisted and so in
control, and I could probablyhave her do anything, that is
that is powerful.
Dori (39:32):
I think with ChiRat, there is a lot of social pressure.
Like we were talking about, youhad said too, doctor John, that,
you know, the family pressure,all of that. I think that there
is that, all of that, thatencompasses wanting to believe
(39:55):
that something is real orsomething is more when it's
really not.
Dr. John Mayer (40:03):
Exactly. And Do
Stacey (40:04):
you think there was a part of Kirat who knew it wasn't
real even deep down but wasafraid to end it in case it
might not have been?
Dr. John Mayer (40:13):
I I didn't get that impression at all. She
truly believed that this was
Stacey (40:18):
She was hook, line, and sinker, as they say.
Dr. John Mayer (40:20):
And he loved me, and we're we're a couple.
Dori (40:25):
Yeah.
Dr. John Mayer (40:25):
I also have to fit in, by the way, and maybe
both of you give give you someperspective. I've been in this
field long enough. And and asyou both know, one of my claims
of fame is dealing and treatingteenagers and, especially, you
know, kids that act out andstuff. And when the Internet
first exploded, it's actuallykind of an ironic story. I had
(40:49):
this one very shy, veryintroverted teenage patient who,
all of a sudden, in a sessionsays, I have a girlfriend.
I gotta tell you about mygirlfriend. And I you know, oh,
I'm just so hooked on this girl.You I think you know where this
story is going. For sessionafter session, I'm giving him
(41:11):
advice on how to, you know, be aboyfriend to a girlfriend
because he was so sociallyawkward and and shy, and I'm
giving him my my a my a stuff onhow to be a cool dude. And all
of a sudden, after about 10 orso sessions of of dealing with
this, I somehow found out or Iasked him the question, have you
(41:35):
ever saw this girl or met thisgirl?
And it was it was all over theInternet, and she lived in,
like, in Canada, and he was inChicago or something like that.
And it was so you're right.Dory's Dory's face right now,
everyone, is just so sadlooking. It was Yeah. It was
(41:56):
absolutely ridiculous.
Dori (41:57):
Get it. I get it. There are I think this happens, not
the catfishing, but I think Ithink that, like, extreme hope
Dr. John Mayer (42:09):
Yeah.
Dori (42:09):
Of wanting it to be true and wanting it to be good, I
think it happens more often thannot.
Dr. John Mayer (42:16):
It it's happening a lot. That's why I
bring up that story. And if Iwas Kirit's therapist, which, by
the way, nobody was in therapyhere. That's interesting.
Dori (42:25):
Yeah. What's going on there?
Dr. John Mayer (42:28):
I would have slapped her in the head and
said, you know, wake up. Yougotta meet this guy. Don't be
falling for these excuses and,you know, like, get her out of
this thing.
Dori (42:38):
Well, it is not a a physical slapper in therapy.
Correct? Like, you don't youdon't get physical. Well, there
are certain
Dr. John Mayer (42:47):
times, you know, that I may have, but that's for
another day.
Stacey (42:58):
So, John, doctor doctor, the idea of catfishing like, I
just kinda wanna wrap this upwith with the idea of catfishing
again, going back to theoriginal idea. Why do people do
that? Why do people deceiveother people and get pleasure
out of people believing them?Like, what is that coming from?
(43:21):
I would feel so guilty.
And, you know, Simran, like, sheconfessed it at the end. She was
like, was all me. It's like,what? It was all easy to do?
That was so that easy?
It was all me? It's like, youknow, you were always able to go
back to Kansas. You just didn'tknow. It just really upset me
that it was like, that's all ittook was her to say that. And
then Kira was like, like, back.
It's like she was like, youknow, flew against the wall
(43:43):
because it it's just soshocking.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Simran gets out of the car. I've opened the door,
and she says to me, I don'tthink I should come in. And I've
she's got quite a serious face.I'm like, why? She looks at me
and she says, it was all me.
I'm like, what do you mean itwas all me? She says, I'm Bobby.
(44:12):
I think slowly, I'm registeringshe means that she's been
pretending to be Bobby. But Ican't quite understand and I was
like calling out names. Whatabout Sanj?
What about Yash? What aboutRajvir? What about Kiran? What
(44:33):
about so and so? She said, it'sall me.
It was me. It was me. So I wasall of them. I suddenly
questioned, who have I beensleeping on the phone with for
the last three years? She saysit was me.
Speaker 7 (44:53):
I violated, or to be sick.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
And now I'm just screaming at her like, why? I
just kept screaming, why? Whydid you do it? And she's like,
she's ruined my whole life.She's stolen the best years of
my life with me.
And all she could say was that II ruined my own life. No
(45:29):
expression. Nothing.
Dr. John Mayer (45:32):
Let me ask you a question that, you know, what's
going on with this Cimarron?That's what does she get out of
it? Well, I think you have tolook at her. And, again,
everyone, this is not adiagnosis, but I think you have
to look at her as a veryundeveloped human being.
Probably
Stacey (45:50):
Kinda like Ed Gein. Childlike. Childlike like Ed
Gein. They, like, they don'tmature past a
Dr. John Mayer (45:55):
certain age. They're just Exactly. You know?
And and she got great Mhmm. Outof out of doing this.
And in her mind, yeah, okay.Okay. I did this. I'm done. I'm
done now.
Okay. Everything's fine.Everything's, you know, good.
But she's not realizing thedamage that which I wanna make a
point before we we run out oftime on our podcast here is that
(46:19):
one of the things that I tookaway from this, you know, I deal
with killers and criminals whodo horrible things to people,
but I have to agree with Kiritat the end of the documentary.
There's gotta be some laws orsomething enacted which
emphasize the cruelty and thedamage that you do to somebody's
(46:43):
life by this kind of thing, thiscatfishing thing about
manipulating people, I thinkit's probably this is a terrible
thing to say, but I think it'sprobably more heinous to do
something like this than to justshoot somebody and kill them and
you're done.
(47:04):
This is years of torture you puta person in, and there's nothing
we can do to a person likeCimarron to give her any
consequences for what she did? Imean, mentally ill, immature,
childlike, whatever she is, sheneeds some consequences for what
(47:26):
she has done to ruin thesepeople's lives and its people.
Stacey (47:30):
She's so entitled. Like, she could just go away and be
fine. Like, it's such anentitled way to think.
Dr. John Mayer (47:36):
It was me. It's all done. Everybody should be
just fine.
Stacey (47:39):
Yeah. Everybody's fine. Like, if it was one month, okay.
Or or even one year. But nineyears of this woman's life all
day?
And then being abusive withhaving her she where are you
going? Going to the bathroom.She had to, like, leave the
phone on. Sorry. I know this isthe end, but the more I think
about it, the more I get upset.
Dr. John Mayer (47:58):
The devastating emotional psychological damage
that this does to an individualis just enormous. We're seeing
this in the news right now with,you know, these people coming up
with, you know, I was abused bya clergyman when I was a child
and it scarred me the rest of mylife. We just had a report in
(48:22):
the media here in the Chicagoarea about this individual that
was abused by a Catholic priest,and the rest of his life, he was
into drugs, and, you know, hesuffered tremendously, and he
died at 43 because of incidentthat happened when he was a
child. And here we have tenyears of psychological torture
(48:46):
that Keurat has to live with.
Dori (48:47):
Catfishing is so popular. I mean, they have shows on it,
like, just dedicated, like, onMTV. There's literally, like
it's almost like a pop culturething to catfish. So the Manti
Teow incident, the Notre Damefootball player, that kinda
brought catfishing maybe to theforefront as well. But you had
(49:10):
asked that question, Stacy,about just, like, catfishing
and, you know, like, what do youdo?
I mean, or what you get out ofit or why. But it is very
popular because you can hide viathe Internet. You can do these
this is a crime to anotherperson. And like we see with
Cimran, there isn't a lot ofconsequence to it.
Dr. John Mayer (49:34):
And it doesn't seem
Dori (49:35):
like there's
Dr. John Mayer (49:35):
been any consequence. And I gotta throw
in there, I, as a doctor, everyyear have to take HIPAA training
to keep my license. And one ofthe sections that is strongly
talked about is Internet fraud,and and they talk about
catfishing because another waythat catfishing is used is to
(49:58):
infiltrate companies, get intopeople's credit cards, etcetera,
etcetera. So I, you know, Ithink an even bigger crime that
we've seen here is this damagethat has been done. It's like
psychological murder.
Maybe that's
Dori (50:17):
It might be worse. I mean, it might
Stacey (50:19):
be psychological torture, they say sometimes, is
worse than physical torture.
Dr. John Mayer (50:23):
Oh, it absolutely is.
Stacey (50:24):
And I was I that's that's what I was gonna say. I'm
so sorry that I forgot. Andalso, not you know, I know we
have to wrap up, but I do have afriend who's in his sixties who
was abused by a priest when hewas young, and he revealed that
to me about a year ago, talkedto me about it when we became
really close. And he said hiswhole life has been he never
even talked about it until hewas in his thirties. He carried
(50:47):
around with him.
He's still single. He's neverbeen with anybody, And it causes
so much it just it breaks you.It changes you, especially if it
it's done when you're a kid. Buteven more so as an adult, when
you're going through times whereyou've where when you're going
through transitional times oranything like that, you know,
when you get out of being incollege and then you have to be
an adult, there's that weirdtransition where you could be
(51:08):
recruited into an MLM andrecruited into a cult because
you're looking for something.It's just that vulnerability
that people have.
Dr. John Mayer (51:15):
I treated so many patients that have been
abused, either by a clergymember or a parent or a family
member, and it is a torture thatreally pervades your life until
you get therapy, and you can putit away, and you can move on
with your life. There is curesfor it. I mean, we can help
(51:36):
people that go through thesethings, and I hope Kira is
getting some help, and she canheal herself.
Stacey (51:44):
You know what? I'm gonna have her baby. I don't have
ovaries or fallopian tubes, butI do have a uterus. So if she
wants to find a way Wait.
Dori (51:53):
This this is getting off the rails. Okay.
Stacey (52:02):
That this was great. Dory, great pick. What a great
what a great podcast. Thanks somuch for listening. Be sure to
join us next time when we'll bediving into another cult or
crime.
Our theme music is written andperformed by Midnight Current.
Check out more of their work onSoundCloud. For more about us
(52:23):
and to catch up on every episodeof Pod Candy, head over to
podcandypodcast.com. You canalso find us on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, or wherever you getyour podcasts. See you next
time.
Pod candy.
Pod candy. A podcast about cults, crimes, and
killers. Imagine thinking youfound the love of your life, a
handsome cardiologist, kind,attentive, and deeply connected
to your world, only to find outnearly a decade later, he never
(00:23):
existed. That's what happened toKirat Asi, a radio host from
London who was drawn into one ofthe most elaborate and
disturbing catfishing schemesever uncovered in The UK.
Dori (00:35):
Despite the emotional and psychological devastation, no
criminal charges have beenfiled. The story raises big
questions about digital abuse,coercive control, and the limits
of the law, and it's allunraveled in the documentary,
Sweet Bobby on Netflix.
Stacey (00:56):
I'm gonna give the origin of the term catfishing.
The idea of a catfish beingplaced with cod to keep them
lively during shipping is ametaphor for deception. The
catfish, in this case, was thefalse identity used to attract
and deceive the target. Oh mygod. Sweet Bobby.
(02:13):
Sweet Bobby. Okay. Bubby. Bubby.I love how she said Bubby.
Bubby.
Dori (02:17):
Bubby.
Stacey (02:18):
Bubby. So, Jory Yes. This was your pick, and it was
so fascinating. I didn't, youknow, I didn't know what to
expect. I had no idea, nopreconceived information or
knowledge about this idea, aboutthis case.
Dori (02:34):
Yes. I found it last year. I'm so glad we're talking about
it now because nobody that Iknow has seen this. I Me
neither. I've I've suggested tofriends, to family, watch sweet
Bobbie.
Nobody has seen it, so I'm soglad we're talking about it
today. But, yes. So there is a Imean, the crux of this story is
(02:57):
it's a huge spoiler. So I thinkwe should suggest that if people
want to listen to our podcastmaybe after they've actually
watched sweet Bobby, that thatwould probably be best. So now
we're gonna dive into it.
So Yes. Please let's reveal thethe big elephant in the room,
(03:18):
Stacy.
Stacey (03:19):
So her cousin her cousin, Cimran, was the person
catfishing Kirat.
Dori (03:27):
And Her own cousin.
Stacey (03:29):
Own cousin. I have the chills thinking about it. For
nine years, this poor woman wasseeking you know, it's very
important in the culture, IndianIndian culture. Marriage and
family and and all these and andher parents are lovely. And they
just wanted her to be happy, andshe was in a long term
relationship before.
And then this thing startshappening. This this this thing
(03:50):
starts creeping in where she shesees Bobby at a bar because
Bobby exists. She Yes. This isKiara. This is Kiara.
So the story
Dori (03:59):
is about yeah. So it's Kiara who is giving away the
best years of her life becauseof this man who is a real person
who she has seen in a club afterthey've been kinda talking back
and forth for for for threemonths. So it all seems
(04:23):
realistic only to find out thatfor nine years, she has been
communicating with her cousinCimran who creates 64 other
profiles and people. I mean,this is a full time I mean,
(04:43):
think about this, Daisy. You runa thief we were just talking,
like, we have a lot of stuffgoing on in our lives.
Yes. Right? You're a big mom.You've got your business. I'm I
I have to work.
I've got a foster dog. We'rejust one fine time to sleep with
the phone on all night long tomaybe text in the middle of the
(05:07):
night something to your belovedthat you really have never had a
personal conversation with ever,ever.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Instead of messaging, Bobby and I have stopped using
Skype.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Yes. You do. Many times have I caught you out.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But because he's in witness protection, we weren't
allowed to have a video call. Itwas just too risky. Even though
Bobby couldn't speak, he wouldcommunicate just by making some
kind of noise, whether it was atap, a grunt, or whatever it
was. And we'd just fall asleepwith the line open.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Good morning, sweetheart. We've been Skyping
all night. I stayed with you allnight. That was so lovely.
Stacey (06:01):
I don't did she, Dory, did she ever talk to her on the
phone, or was it all throughtext to talk to him on the
phone? No. Remember, it was
Dori (06:08):
the soft voice. There was a time before Bobby went into
the Witness protection.Protection program, and that's
why he couldn't ever meet withher. And then he had this I
mean, there's just so much. Iknow we're just, like, throwing
shit out there.
Stacey (06:26):
I know. We're, throwing shit out.
Dori (06:28):
People are following along. They're probably not. You
gotta watch this. But then he'sin the hospital, but the only
way that he because he had thisdevastating injury, the only way
that they could communicate wasreally through Facebook
Messenger. Or at maybe somepoint, there's been some
(06:49):
whispering from Bobby.
So you even the mother talked toBobby. It's just this quiet
There's a whisper Yes. It'slike, hello, Stacy. I've never
met you before, but you're thelove of my life. Can you hear
me?
Can you hear me? It's been nineyears. We've never met.
Stacey (07:10):
So we're not making fun of this. This is not a joke.
We're just it's justfascinating, and I love this
woman, Kirit. I think she isvery she's gorgeous. Gorgeous.
But it's so sad, Dory, becauseshe's chasing this dream of this
idea that she becomes it'salmost cult like in that she
gets indoctrinated. She getsconvinced, and it just keeps
(07:34):
escalating and escalating andescalating. More calls. She's in
touch with Bobby's cousin.Bobby's she knows who Bobby's
wife is.
He has a baby with this womanwho he says he's divorcing, but
he's never he's been with herthe whole time because he's a
real person that doesn't haveanything to do with her. It was
all fabricated by her cousin whomade up a story about some guy's
life.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
When I think back to the club in Brighton, when I
bumped into Bobby, which was thereal Bobby, that is a sliding
balls moment, but there's somany moments like that. I find
out when Bobby's brother JJadded me on Facebook. It was
actually Simran. Simran haddated JJ in real life, but they
(08:15):
had broken up and the version ofJJ that I'd been introduced to
was fake. Starting from there,every character connected to JJ,
Bobby, everybody is all Simran.
Dori (08:33):
I think you touched on the point, though, that, you know, I
am a single woman who is older,and I never had children. And I
think, like, you touched on thiswith, like, you know, the Indian
culture, a lot of people do get,like, married early. They get
set up with with people thatmaybe they don't know. And but
(08:58):
you mentioned, you know, she hada relationship before this whole
Bobby thing, but she literallygave up her, like, you know,
quote, unquote birthing yearsfor these nine years where you
don't know is she ever going tohave a family now because of her
cousin who at 17 years oldstarted this ruse. And, you
(09:26):
know, once doctor John gets outhere, or doctor John, as we like
to say, I have so many questionsfor him.
Stacey (09:32):
Oh, so many.
Dori (09:33):
All lead to simran. Like, how could somebody do that just
in general, but then to a familymember that you have a good
relationship with Yes. That youlove. Is some psycho level shit
going on.
Stacey (09:53):
Yeah. And I think it escalated. I think it got worse,
but I'm gonna talk to doctorJohn about this, or we're gonna
talk to him. I can't wait to askhim. She seems to have
borderline personality disorder.
Don't know if she's yes. Simran.Maybe she has maybe she has some
sort of you know, besides havinga personality disorder, Simran.
Dori (10:14):
You see, because it must
Stacey (10:17):
have been very, very well constructed because Kirat
was, like, hanging out. I mean,she was hanging on to this. She
never and even when her parentssaid to her, you know, are you
sure? Are you sure? She wasadamant.
This is the man. This is
Dori (10:29):
the man. And I have to
Stacey (10:30):
say her parents were lovely, and so they almost
seemed progressive in the factthat they weren't trying to set
her up. They weren't trying tomake it a, you know, a a match
like they usually do. And well,I shouldn't say usually. Just in
some, you know, Indian culture,they do sometimes have a match.
In a a lot of cultures, thathappens.
And sometimes, it's for goodbecause the family knows the
(10:52):
family. I mean, I'm not sayingit's the right way to fall in
love, but the family knows thefamily. They know where they're
from. They know what they have.They know all these things.
They have a nice boy. You knowwhat
Dori (11:00):
I mean? Ugh. My mother fixed me up with a couple
winners back in the day. I wishthat I was in the culture that
they really knew what they weredoing because Exactly.
Stacey (11:10):
So, you know, our our parents, you know but, you know,
my I have so much to say aboutthat. But, anyway, back to
Skabi.
Dori (11:17):
To see Another episode, Stacy.
Stacey (11:19):
Sweet. Exactly.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Marriage is important. I've always said,
Kira, look. You have to getmarried. And every parent wishes
to be a grandparent. You know?
Speaker 7 (11:29):
She had quite a number of proposals as soon as
she came back from uni, and shealways declined.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
It's not that we haven't helped. It's for her to
make up her mind.
Speaker 7 (11:41):
I want to make sure she's happy, but if the girl
does not get married, I thinkyou'll look down upon. And I
think she feels pressure fromthe community, from the friends,
from the families when theythink, oh my god, why is she
still not married?
Stacey (12:00):
The issue with is like, what is her what is she she's
gotta be sociopathic andborderline.
Dori (12:10):
Yeah. What does she get out of it?
Stacey (12:11):
Like She's even psychopathic. A rush. A rush of
it's I think it's similar towhen people are making a phony
phone call or, you know, stealsomething. It's like a rush of
adrenaline of this thing I'mdoing, and I'm like, god. I'm
getting so good at it.
I think Simran believed it. Ithink there was a part of Simran
Dori (12:33):
that somehow thought she was doing something good. I mean
That is true. Because in the inthe doc Mhmm. They do say that
that, like, that I think thatthey, she and Kyrith had like
the, a separate, you know,discussion obviously, you know,
personally after all thishappened. Mhmm.
(12:54):
And I think that she had toldher, I thought, you know, like,
I was kinda helping you because,you know, you probably had the
relationship before that youknew wasn't gonna work. And then
there that's delusion to me.That is complete and utter
delusion Yes. To create I mean,Kira was, like, online talking
(13:19):
to made up people about Bobbyconstantly and having intimate
moments.
Stacey (13:29):
That was what
Dori (13:30):
I was gonna catch. Yes. Well With her cousin. With her
cousin, not Bobby,
Stacey (13:36):
and that's disgusting. And and, you know, she said, you
know, when in the in the doc,they said, you know, did you
have any, you know, intimateconversation? And she kinda you
know, she was like, I don'twanna say you know? So you get
the you get the impression thatthere was a lot of that about a
lot of, you know, maybe, youknow, texting,
Dori (13:55):
you know, text. Sex. Yeah.
Stacey (13:56):
Texting sex, phone sex, and that's twisted. That's
another level to me that sheallowed like, her cousin was
sitting on the phone or textingher back and, like, playing with
her with that. I mean, that'sjust that's just so abusive and
so it's so manipulative and and,like, it's deceitful deception.
It's betrayal. It's awful.
And it and then then Kiran'sleft with this, like, sick. Now
(14:19):
I'm sure she feels so this isthe thing with cognitive
dissonance. When you realizeyou've done something for a long
period of time that, you know,and that you didn't understand
or come to terms with until youactually did. And then when you
do, you look back and you go,goddamn it. What's wrong with
me?
Like, what kind of psychologicaldamage has this done?
Dori (14:37):
Well, and I think the sad thing is, like, you know, when
she Bubi? When when sheconfronts Bubi at his house
Mhmm. With his wife, Saanj, andthe baby there
Stacey (14:49):
Beautiful girl, by the way. God. Beautiful. He's
gorgeous. He's gorgeous.
Dori (14:53):
Gorgeous. Hello. Hello, sweetheart. Hello, Robin. That's
sweet puppy.
Attractive, Jenna.
Stacey (14:59):
I'm in my fifties.
Dori (15:01):
Yeah. Come on over to America. But I think, like,
when, you know, when the the sadthing is, like, when it all came
to light and the fact that thepolice were very interested in
Bobby's side, because we have tosay, like, Bobby was also
(15:22):
shystid during this whole thing.Simran was using his and his
wife's personal and the baby'spersonal photos for this crazy
ruse, but that the police wereso interested in the Bobby side
(15:44):
and and really, like, wanted tohelp him with his charges. But
poor Kira, there's nothing thatthey would do for her.
So she had to take matters intoher own hands to bring this some
(16:04):
type of of of legality. It
Stacey (16:08):
is so like, I have the chills the whole time we're
talking. Because I'm thinkingabout, you know, a topic of mine
that that is re regret is alwayssomething that I think about,
and I don't like to have regret.And I always talk to my students
about, like, regret. Like, youtook a path. You chose a path,
not this path.
But if you didn't choose thispath, you wouldn't know it was
(16:29):
on this path. So you gotta go tothis path and just trust that
path. And don't think about whatcould have happened. You gotta
go to that path. And there'sthis poor woman, Kirit, who who
goes on this path and keepsgoing.
It's like being in a an abusivemarriage. You're like, well, I
guess I'll just keep it going,and I'll wait until the kids are
older. And I feel like if nineyears from your thirties to your
(16:50):
forties or, you know, somewherein that area is is just mind
Dori (16:55):
You said it's awful. You had said it before. It's very
cult like because
Stacey (17:00):
She isolated her. She quit her job. I mean, she was
she was crying all the time. Imean, it's awful.
Dori (17:04):
Yeah. All of her time was centered around not only Bobby,
but also around all of these,you know, quote, unquote
characters that Cimran created.Because we have to say too, this
all is plausible because Cimran,the cousin, dated Bobby's
(17:27):
brother. So it is thatconnection of reality. So why
wouldn't this be realistic?
But like we're saying, it becamecult like because her whole life
was insulated by all thesepeople that then Simran created.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That didn't exist.
Dori (17:51):
Group of four of us that chat about Bobby once he went
into witness protection program.And now we have three of us that
are in another Facebook groupthat we always chat about, you
know, when he had that terribleaccident. Or now we have a
couple others that we talk aboutwhen, you know, he's getting
(18:12):
divorced from Sanj. And now didhe get back to get I mean, it's
just Yeah. It's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Ultimately, I find 60 profiles.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
60.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
60. Six zero. She used all these different guises
to control me and hold my fearsagainst me.
Stacey (18:37):
The other thing that was so depressing and sad to me is
that this was not Kirette'sbaby. This was Bobby's baby. But
she was willing, Bobby andSandra's baby, which a whole
story was made up about them byfrom Cimran, but they were
always married. This baby andthey picked out clothes for the
baby and got her a gift, got thebaby a gift, him a gift. And
(19:00):
then they had a picture.
Of course, they didn't show hisface. Thank God. But they had he
had the outfit on, she thought,oh, he's wearing what I bought.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
In pictures sent to me, Bobby's son was wearing
clothes that we'd pickedtogether. Unbeknown at the time
to me, those baby photos alreadyexisted on the real Bobby's
Facebook page. Somehow, she hadreverse engineered it to lead me
(19:30):
to pick those clothes. There'seven been times when I've been
with Simran and she'd befiddling on her smartwatch, and
I would get a message fromBobby. Now I realized that she
was messaging me as Bobby whilewith me.
Stacey (19:53):
This woman Simran or this child or whatever she was
when she started, I cannot thethe to have a mind like that, to
be
Dori (20:01):
able to create false identity stories, you are so
good at being bad. It's so funnythat you say that because I was
just thinking, like, with allthese, like, cults and all
these, like, masterminds fromtrue crime, like, if they just
use their evil for good. Like,they're brilliant people. This
(20:22):
woman is a digital mastermind.Yeah.
Yeah. Creative writingmastermind. She's ruined her a
Simran, she's ruined her wholelife. Right. I knew you were
talking
Stacey (20:34):
about Simran because I don't even think she was in
college yet. I mean, she waspretty young. It's really hard
to keep those things consistentwhen you're lying a lot and
making things up. So you have toyou yourself have to be aware of
the consistency of the lies.Okay.
You know what, Dory? Who are webringing in? We're bringing in
(20:55):
the most important therapist onthe planet, doctor John Mayer.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
The doctor is in. Doctor the doctor is in.
Dori (21:09):
The doctor?
Dr. John Mayer (21:10):
As always, I've been chomping at the bit to to
Stacey (21:13):
I know you're chomping in. Chomping in.
Dr. John Mayer (21:15):
I'm chomping at the to get in here.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Anyway John, what
Stacey (21:19):
do you think of what we've been talking about?
Dr. John Mayer (21:21):
My god. Well, first of all, as always, you
both have excellent instinctsand and empathy with what's
going on here. One of thethings, you know, from the start
here is I'd love to see a realpicture of this simmer on
because I just have a a theorythat, you know, they they put a
actor's picture in thedocumentary. You got a feeling
(21:45):
she's not that cute of a girl.Everybody else in this
documentary is so I mean,they're beautiful people from a
to z.
The parents are even just, youknow, various
Dori (21:55):
Yeah.
Dr. John Mayer (21:55):
Older parents. But, anyway, I wanted to see
Cimarron because she had atheory that this is a girl. What
else does she have going on inher life?
Dori (22:05):
That's the thing that is so confounding. She had a
relationship. They talked to,like, some, you know, school
friends, like, that she justlike she she was not like
somebody
Dr. John Mayer (22:19):
kept ended, which just gives you a clue, you
know, what's going on with herthat she couldn't hold this
relationship. That's certainly Imean, that's the low hanging
fruit here is that the Cimarronhas nothing going on in her life
that she's gotta be obsessedwith ruining her cousin's life,
who, like you both said, theymade a good case in the
(22:42):
documentary, she loved hercousin. You know? But her cousin
became a plaything for her. ButI also was thinking that, does
she have to take this incultural context?
I know, not only in in somepatients that I've treated, many
patients I've treated, but Ihave some personal friends who
(23:03):
are Sikhs, and they're of thereligion, the Indian religion of
Sikhs. And this whole thing ofthe pressure to get married, I
don't think there's anothercultural entity that I've ever
witnessed that has such pressurethat marriage and children are,
(23:27):
you know, it's everything. Ithink the parents even said in
the documentary that that'severything, and Kirit constantly
said at the beginning when whenthis first started, I want so
badly to get married and havechildren. You know, we have to
look at it in this culturalcontext of how much pressure
(23:48):
there is for this. So when youwonder why Curit got so deeply
involved and was hanging on tothis, it was because of that
family and cultural andreligious pressure to make this
work.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Marriage is a big deal in our culture. From a very
young age, I dreamed of gettingmarried and having a family
early. That's what matters to memore than anything else. There's
a picture of me as I think I wastwo. My auntie dressed me up in
(24:23):
my mom's wedding outfit.
That's their hopes and dreams aswell.
Stacey (24:29):
Let's just talk about Simran's personality. I mean, I
mentioned borderline. Imentioned sociopathic. I wanna I
wanna hear from you, John, adoctor. What is Simran's
personality disorder?
What is her issue? What is herpsychological problem?
Dr. John Mayer (24:42):
Brings up that brings up a good note for all of
our episodes. Per the ethics inmy field, I can't diagnose her
over the the media, but I cangive some some hints and some
ideas. And there's justspeculation, everyone, in the
audience. This is not a officialdiagnosis because that would be
(25:04):
unethical. But Correct.
You both hit it on the head. Youboth threw out some terms, which
I think are certainly in theballpark of what Simran is is
dealing with. Is shesociopathic? Yeah. Probably, I
underline, probably borderline.
You know? Maybe. That's a very,by the way, serious mental
(25:28):
illness. It's not just somethingto throw out.
Stacey (25:31):
Oh, no. Did I throw out something bad?
Dori (25:33):
I just it's I've read about
Dr. John Mayer (25:35):
all It's fine. No. It's it's it's it's fine.
Dori (25:37):
I mean,
Dr. John Mayer (25:37):
I think it's in
Stacey (25:38):
Some of the characteristics.
Dr. John Mayer (25:39):
Of what could be going on with this this young
lady. But I also thinking of,again, going into this larger
context of these people, theother thing that really hit me
was they're first of all, likewe've said many times, they're
beautiful people. They're alsovery wealthy people. I started
(26:00):
to say that I know people in theSikh community, and I also know
I have a friend who is from notonly the Sikh community, the
Sikh culture, religion, but alsofrom Africa. These are very
wealthy Indian people.
(26:20):
Look at all the leisure timethat these people have. None of
us have the time to becatfishing somebody to the
extent that Cimarron did toKirit and Kirit to spend the
time obsessed with this withthis Bobby. So that's one thing
you have to keep in mind withthese people. Back to Cimarron,
(26:44):
is she mentally disturbed?Probably.
Again, everyone, probably. I'mnot diagnosing. But also, look
at the thrills that a kid wouldget out of this. I have to share
a personal story. When I wasprobably in middle school, I had
a friend whose mother worked forthe phone company, and so she
(27:06):
got unlimited phone time.
Stacey (27:08):
She's such a boomer.
Dr. John Mayer (27:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just kidding. Just
kidding.
Would Keep going. We would get akick out of making crank phone
calls, you know, to people. Wewould spend hours making crank
phone calls, delivering pizzasto the neighbor next door, and
seeing five pizzas delivered.And maybe I shouldn't be saying
this in in on on a broadcast. Weeven called up well, before I
(27:33):
had the idea of becoming apsychologist, we even called up
a psychiatric hospital and triedto get my friend committed.
We were, like, you know, 11years old, 12 years old.
Stacey (27:45):
That's so funny. That's so ironic.
Dr. John Mayer (27:47):
Right. But look at the similarities to the
Cimarron. Is she gettingincredible kicks out of this?
And you also hit on something,Stacy. I think it was you who
talked about the sexuality, youknow, that Kirit didn't wanna
talk about, but I really my earsperked up, and I wondered I
(28:07):
could just picture Cimarronsaying all these sexual
conversations with Kira and kindof getting off on it.
You know? And maybe there wasmore of that that went on than
than we know of, and it would beinteresting if, you know, we
knew what the nature of thatwas.
Stacey (28:28):
So And I really wanted because I can only imagine what
it was. To keep her for nineyears, there's gotta be you
know, like, it's just gross thatthis woman did this to Kira. You
know? I mean, it's just gross.She to put her in that position,
and then she still felt okay.
Dr. John Mayer (28:43):
We haven't talked about and I agree with
you. You I have to preface whatI'm saying here by saying I
agree with you when you talkedabout Kira, and she's admirable
woman, and, you know, she'sgoing after this and not you
know, I I totally agree, butlet's talk about her a little
bit.
Dori (29:06):
Yeah. I was gonna ask you, doctor, about
Stacey (29:09):
What happened to her? What's wrong?
Dori (29:11):
Because how does one keep moving on after having this nine
year chunk of life invested andbe embarrassed by it as well. I
mean, there has to beembarrassment too.
Dr. John Mayer (29:29):
Oh, absolutely. Especially to family members.
You know, oh, when are we gonnameet Bob? Well, that came up a
lot. When are we gonna meetBobby?
When can you bring Bobby to thisget together, etcetera?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Bobby made me feel loved. And given the obstacles,
things were going well. Butdespite this, there's only so
much you can live a relationshiponline, have to be with each
other. But there's always areason why he can't come. It was
(30:04):
really frustrating.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Do you know how much I want to be with you? Do you
know how much I want to lookafter you?
Speaker 7 (30:11):
I was very disappointed as well for him not
turning up and I was trying toconsole Kirat every time but
then she wouldn't discuss herfeelings openly with me thinking
that I will be upset anddistressed about all this.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I do anything.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
The stress of the situation is too much for him
and things start to feeldifferent between us. Because of
the stroke, Bobby's health wasup and down and his mental
health was fragile. He startedto lean on me quite a lot.
Dr. John Mayer (30:52):
Yeah. Let's take a look at cure it and and say,
what would make a person hang inthere ten years? And I think,
again, we have to look at thecultural context of what I
talked about before about thepressures to have a person, to
get married, etcetera. But also,we have to look at the Sikh
(31:14):
religion, is that the Sikhreligion values honesty and
values and truthfulness. Sothere's an element that Kirib
fell into thinking, well, he's aSikh and, you know, we all are
honest and we're truthful toeach other, and so I can trust
(31:35):
him.
I can believe, you know, thateverything he's saying. So
that's another thing we have totake a look at.
Dori (31:46):
Kurate met Bobby in a club. So she knew that this
person was a real person
Dr. John Mayer (31:55):
Yeah.
Dori (31:56):
And that if you can speak more about that, there was a
level of reality to it for herprobably because she actually
met him, but that never reallythey never spoke. They never
talked about it on their ontheir exchanges with Rob Cigran.
Stacey (32:17):
She tried to she tried to talk to him at the bar. She's
like, remember me? I've beentalking to you. He like Well
Dori (32:21):
I know who you are. You know what I mean?
Dr. John Mayer (32:23):
What you're getting at I I don't wanna be
too scientific here, but whatyou're getting at, Dory, is the
concept of intermittentreinforcement. You know, that
she met him. You're right. Thethe one of the very first things
that happened was she actuallymet the real Bobby. She saw him.
And, again, the guy is astunning guy. If you see the
(32:44):
pictures of the club they're in,he was it looked like he was
almost taller than everybodyelse. You know? So he he just
stood out. How could you not,like a magnet, be attracted to
this stunning guy who's in thisclub and almost like the it was
almost like John Travolta in themiddle of, you know, the dance
(33:05):
club.
Stacey (33:06):
Staying alive? Yes. Another boomer comment. Another
boomer comment.
Dori (33:10):
Yeah. Staying alive. Such a boomer.
Dr. John Mayer (33:12):
Your eyes would just go there. So your so she
gets that she gets thatreinforcement. She gets that
reinforcement. She gets thatlittle piece of candy and, you
know, is attracted to this guy.That that was a hook.
You're exactly right, Dory. Andthen Simran was absolutely
brilliant at mind manipulationto give her little pieces and
(33:37):
little reinforcement along theway and hooked her in. But it
still brings me back to, and I'msorry, Kira, because I hope you
are listening to our ourbroadcast as well. What would
drive you to keep hanging onthat long? Cut bait.
You know? There are so many
Stacey (33:58):
That's one of my questions. Cut bait, literally,
like a fish.
Dr. John Mayer (34:01):
Yeah. That's why Like
Dori (34:03):
the bait.
Dr. John Mayer (34:03):
That's why I said
Stacey (34:04):
Well, that was funny.
Dori (34:05):
That was funny. Assurance. There was there was a lot of
that hopeful reassurance that,come on. Like, I am coming into
town, and then they'd never meeteven after the because, you
know, we have to remember, therewere years of the witness
protection program, so he reallycouldn't be out and about. So
(34:29):
that was a brilliant thing fromCimran with also the terrible
injury that, you know, the fauxinjury that he also succumbed to
where they had a photo of him inthe hospital with all the tubes.
So maybe there was that, like,plausible hope of, you know,
(34:52):
well, I'm in the witnessprotection program, so I'm here,
I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna seeyou, but I can't. I can't right
now. I have other things goingon. Is that maybe something,
doctor John, that, like, youkind of, like, for cure it, she
kind of thought, like, this ishope. That's why she keeps going
and going with it.
(35:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
Let me
Dr. John Mayer (35:14):
get back to what I said in terms of the science
of the brain is that thisintermittent reinforcement is so
powerful. It's the most powerfulthing that hooks people onto bad
habits. Know, lifestyle thingsthat people do is is
intermittent reinforcement. Sobut for ten years, it still to
(35:38):
me was very unusual that shehung in
Stacey (35:42):
so
Dr. John Mayer (35:42):
so
Stacey (35:43):
Well, and also, he was married for a little bit of it,
then divorced. She was willingto stick it like, she was his
friend, but she wasn't datinganybody. That's another thing.
It's like she wasn't even withhim. Yeah.
And then when he had a baby,then she was willing see, she
was giving so much of herselfaway to nothing. She was willing
to raise another person's babyfor a fake person. I mean
Dr. John Mayer (36:02):
And again, it goes and it goes to the
brilliant manipulation of Simranbecause, you know, that's what I
thought about with him gettingmarried. As you watch it and you
don't know what the twist isyet, you're going, okay, he's
married, and she's still hangingin there like, I love you, and
I'm behind you even thoughyou're you're getting married to
(36:26):
Sanji and etcetera. Then she hasa child, and you're getting I'm
still, you know, I'm still herefor you, etcetera, etcetera,
rather than bye bye. You know?At at the end of the
documentary, when she finallygoes, okay.
This is enough. I'm going I'mjust gonna go to his house and
knock on the door. I I said tomyself, yeah. Yeah, lady. You
(36:47):
should have done that, you know,ten years ago.
Stacey (36:55):
Can I share something with you guys?
Dr. John Mayer (36:57):
Yes.
Stacey (36:58):
So, you know, it's really interesting that during
this whole process that we'vebeen having together,
specifically together, I haverecovered old memories of things
of manipulation that I've beenin. I was catfished once by a
guy I met. So I met a guy namedSean on a you know, I'm not
(37:18):
telling you his last name. Justa guy at Club Med. I mean, met
him at Club Med.
We had no physical relationship.He liked me, but he was whacked.
He was whacked. But we werehaving this sort of emotional
relationship when we got home onthe phone. And then he told me
he was coming to visit, and thenhe didn't.
And then he told me again, andthen he did it. And then he said
(37:39):
he would come to my turnabout. Ididn't have another date. He
said he'd come, and he didn't.And I felt so taken I I I felt
that I was being manipulated.
I mean, now that I'm lookingback, back then, I was like,
well then, I'd cut it off and Iat least it only lasted three
months.
Dr. John Mayer (37:57):
You see that intermittent reinforcement. You
know, he gave you little piecesof candy, you know, and you're
Right. You were chomping on it.Oh, okay. This is good.
Dori (38:06):
This is
Stacey (38:07):
I was hanging on to an idea of this guy. And I'm not
even and, like, I never evenkissed him. Like, it was just he
was giving me candy. This shewas giving and we're not trying
to point that out. It's it'sjust
Dori (38:18):
funny. He
Stacey (38:19):
was giving me all this, you're right, reinforcement.
Like, I love you.
I'm coming. I'm gonnareinforcement. Like, I love you.
I'm coming. I'm gonna comevisit. It's just now I can't. I
gotta go to my school isrequiring me to stay. Oh, now I
can't come.
Now I can't come. And it itfizzled away and ended. He's now
married with kids.
Dori (38:32):
He's okay. I think
Dr. John Mayer (38:33):
what happened in the in Kiritsky. Yeah. You know,
is that she would get thosetidbits and and there's little
crumbs. And and I wanted tothrow out a term, and it's a
good time to do it. You know, itwas almost Rasputin like, you
know, that he was almost she wasmesmerized and and just
controlled in this almost likecrazy spiritual way by this
(38:57):
whole thing.
And again, I hate to throw bricbracs at Cimarron, but it would
the manipulation techniques werebrilliant for a 17 year old kid
that you know? And and that'sanother reason why it it kept
going with Cimarron is becausethis had to be absolutely a kick
for that girl, you know,absolutely getting her jollies
(39:19):
off the fact that I got mycousin so twisted and so in
control, and I could probablyhave her do anything, that is
that is powerful.
Dori (39:32):
I think with ChiRat, there is a lot of social pressure.
Like we were talking about, youhad said too, doctor John, that,
you know, the family pressure,all of that. I think that there
is that, all of that, thatencompasses wanting to believe
(39:55):
that something is real orsomething is more when it's
really not.
Dr. John Mayer (40:03):
Exactly. And Do
Stacey (40:04):
you think there was a part of Kirat who knew it wasn't
real even deep down but wasafraid to end it in case it
might not have been?
Dr. John Mayer (40:13):
I I didn't get that impression at all. She
truly believed that this was
Stacey (40:18):
She was hook, line, and sinker, as they say.
Dr. John Mayer (40:20):
And he loved me, and we're we're a couple.
Dori (40:25):
Yeah.
Dr. John Mayer (40:25):
I also have to fit in, by the way, and maybe
both of you give give you someperspective. I've been in this
field long enough. And and asyou both know, one of my claims
of fame is dealing and treatingteenagers and, especially, you
know, kids that act out andstuff. And when the Internet
first exploded, it's actuallykind of an ironic story. I had
(40:49):
this one very shy, veryintroverted teenage patient who,
all of a sudden, in a sessionsays, I have a girlfriend.
I gotta tell you about mygirlfriend. And I you know, oh,
I'm just so hooked on this girl.You I think you know where this
story is going. For sessionafter session, I'm giving him
(41:11):
advice on how to, you know, be aboyfriend to a girlfriend
because he was so sociallyawkward and and shy, and I'm
giving him my my a my a stuff onhow to be a cool dude. And all
of a sudden, after about 10 orso sessions of of dealing with
this, I somehow found out or Iasked him the question, have you
(41:35):
ever saw this girl or met thisgirl?
And it was it was all over theInternet, and she lived in,
like, in Canada, and he was inChicago or something like that.
And it was so you're right.Dory's Dory's face right now,
everyone, is just so sadlooking. It was Yeah. It was
(41:56):
absolutely ridiculous.
Dori (41:57):
Get it. I get it. There are I think this happens, not
the catfishing, but I think Ithink that, like, extreme hope
Dr. John Mayer (42:09):
Yeah.
Dori (42:09):
Of wanting it to be true and wanting it to be good, I
think it happens more often thannot.
Dr. John Mayer (42:16):
It it's happening a lot. That's why I
bring up that story. And if Iwas Kirit's therapist, which, by
the way, nobody was in therapyhere. That's interesting.
Dori (42:25):
Yeah. What's going on there?
Dr. John Mayer (42:28):
I would have slapped her in the head and
said, you know, wake up. Yougotta meet this guy. Don't be
falling for these excuses and,you know, like, get her out of
this thing.
Dori (42:38):
Well, it is not a a physical slapper in therapy.
Correct? Like, you don't youdon't get physical. Well, there
are certain
Dr. John Mayer (42:47):
times, you know, that I may have, but that's for
another day.
Stacey (42:58):
So, John, doctor doctor, the idea of catfishing like, I
just kinda wanna wrap this upwith with the idea of catfishing
again, going back to theoriginal idea. Why do people do
that? Why do people deceiveother people and get pleasure
out of people believing them?Like, what is that coming from?
(43:21):
I would feel so guilty.
And, you know, Simran, like, sheconfessed it at the end. She was
like, was all me. It's like,what? It was all easy to do?
That was so that easy?
It was all me? It's like, youknow, you were always able to go
back to Kansas. You just didn'tknow. It just really upset me
that it was like, that's all ittook was her to say that. And
then Kira was like, like, back.
It's like she was like, youknow, flew against the wall
(43:43):
because it it's just soshocking.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Simran gets out of the car. I've opened the door,
and she says to me, I don'tthink I should come in. And I've
she's got quite a serious face.I'm like, why? She looks at me
and she says, it was all me.
I'm like, what do you mean itwas all me? She says, I'm Bobby.
(44:12):
I think slowly, I'm registeringshe means that she's been
pretending to be Bobby. But Ican't quite understand and I was
like calling out names. Whatabout Sanj?
What about Yash? What aboutRajvir? What about Kiran? What
(44:33):
about so and so? She said, it'sall me.
It was me. It was me. So I wasall of them. I suddenly
questioned, who have I beensleeping on the phone with for
the last three years? She saysit was me.
Speaker 7 (44:53):
I violated, or to be sick.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
And now I'm just screaming at her like, why? I
just kept screaming, why? Whydid you do it? And she's like,
she's ruined my whole life.She's stolen the best years of
my life with me.
And all she could say was that II ruined my own life. No
(45:29):
expression. Nothing.
Dr. John Mayer (45:32):
Let me ask you a question that, you know, what's
going on with this Cimarron?That's what does she get out of
it? Well, I think you have tolook at her. And, again,
everyone, this is not adiagnosis, but I think you have
to look at her as a veryundeveloped human being.
Probably
Stacey (45:50):
Kinda like Ed Gein. Childlike. Childlike like Ed
Gein. They, like, they don'tmature past a
Dr. John Mayer (45:55):
certain age. They're just Exactly. You know?
And and she got great Mhmm. Outof out of doing this.
And in her mind, yeah, okay.Okay. I did this. I'm done. I'm
done now.
Okay. Everything's fine.Everything's, you know, good.
But she's not realizing thedamage that which I wanna make a
point before we we run out oftime on our podcast here is that
(46:19):
one of the things that I tookaway from this, you know, I deal
with killers and criminals whodo horrible things to people,
but I have to agree with Kiritat the end of the documentary.
There's gotta be some laws orsomething enacted which
emphasize the cruelty and thedamage that you do to somebody's
(46:43):
life by this kind of thing, thiscatfishing thing about
manipulating people, I thinkit's probably this is a terrible
thing to say, but I think it'sprobably more heinous to do
something like this than to justshoot somebody and kill them and
you're done.
(47:04):
This is years of torture you puta person in, and there's nothing
we can do to a person likeCimarron to give her any
consequences for what she did? Imean, mentally ill, immature,
childlike, whatever she is, sheneeds some consequences for what
(47:26):
she has done to ruin thesepeople's lives and its people.
Stacey (47:30):
She's so entitled. Like, she could just go away and be
fine. Like, it's such anentitled way to think.
Dr. John Mayer (47:36):
It was me. It's all done. Everybody should be
just fine.
Stacey (47:39):
Yeah. Everybody's fine. Like, if it was one month, okay.
Or or even one year. But nineyears of this woman's life all
day?
And then being abusive withhaving her she where are you
going? Going to the bathroom.She had to, like, leave the
phone on. Sorry. I know this isthe end, but the more I think
about it, the more I get upset.
Dr. John Mayer (47:58):
The devastating emotional psychological damage
that this does to an individualis just enormous. We're seeing
this in the news right now with,you know, these people coming up
with, you know, I was abused bya clergyman when I was a child
and it scarred me the rest of mylife. We just had a report in
(48:22):
the media here in the Chicagoarea about this individual that
was abused by a Catholic priest,and the rest of his life, he was
into drugs, and, you know, hesuffered tremendously, and he
died at 43 because of incidentthat happened when he was a
child. And here we have tenyears of psychological torture
(48:46):
that Keurat has to live with.
Dori (48:47):
Catfishing is so popular. I mean, they have shows on it,
like, just dedicated, like, onMTV. There's literally, like
it's almost like a pop culturething to catfish. So the Manti
Teow incident, the Notre Damefootball player, that kinda
brought catfishing maybe to theforefront as well. But you had
(49:10):
asked that question, Stacy,about just, like, catfishing
and, you know, like, what do youdo?
I mean, or what you get out ofit or why. But it is very
popular because you can hide viathe Internet. You can do these
this is a crime to anotherperson. And like we see with
Cimran, there isn't a lot ofconsequence to it.
Dr. John Mayer (49:34):
And it doesn't seem
Dori (49:35):
like there's
Dr. John Mayer (49:35):
been any consequence. And I gotta throw
in there, I, as a doctor, everyyear have to take HIPAA training
to keep my license. And one ofthe sections that is strongly
talked about is Internet fraud,and and they talk about
catfishing because another waythat catfishing is used is to
(49:58):
infiltrate companies, get intopeople's credit cards, etcetera,
etcetera. So I, you know, Ithink an even bigger crime that
we've seen here is this damagethat has been done. It's like
psychological murder.
Maybe that's
Dori (50:17):
It might be worse. I mean, it might
Stacey (50:19):
be psychological torture, they say sometimes, is
worse than physical torture.
Dr. John Mayer (50:23):
Oh, it absolutely is.
Stacey (50:24):
And I was I that's that's what I was gonna say. I'm
so sorry that I forgot. Andalso, not you know, I know we
have to wrap up, but I do have afriend who's in his sixties who
was abused by a priest when hewas young, and he revealed that
to me about a year ago, talkedto me about it when we became
really close. And he said hiswhole life has been he never
even talked about it until hewas in his thirties. He carried
(50:47):
around with him.
He's still single. He's neverbeen with anybody, And it causes
so much it just it breaks you.It changes you, especially if it
it's done when you're a kid. Buteven more so as an adult, when
you're going through times whereyou've where when you're going
through transitional times oranything like that, you know,
when you get out of being incollege and then you have to be
an adult, there's that weirdtransition where you could be
(51:08):
recruited into an MLM andrecruited into a cult because
you're looking for something.It's just that vulnerability
that people have.
Dr. John Mayer (51:15):
I treated so many patients that have been
abused, either by a clergymember or a parent or a family
member, and it is a torture thatreally pervades your life until
you get therapy, and you can putit away, and you can move on
with your life. There is curesfor it. I mean, we can help
(51:36):
people that go through thesethings, and I hope Kira is
getting some help, and she canheal herself.
Stacey (51:44):
You know what? I'm gonna have her baby. I don't have
ovaries or fallopian tubes, butI do have a uterus. So if she
wants to find a way Wait.
Dori (51:53):
This this is getting off the rails. Okay.
Stacey (52:02):
That this was great. Dory, great pick. What a great
what a great podcast. Thanks somuch for listening. Be sure to
join us next time when we'll bediving into another cult or
crime.
Our theme music is written andperformed by Midnight Current.
Check out more of their work onSoundCloud. For more about us
(52:23):
and to catch up on every episodeof Pod Candy, head over to
podcandypodcast.com. You canalso find us on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, or wherever you getyour podcasts. See you next
time.
Pod candy.
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