6 Storytelling Principles to Hook & Retain Listeners (That Apply to Every Show)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy (00:00):
So, Justin, there's this podcast marketing experiment
that I've always wanted to run,but have never had the chance.

Justin (00:08):
Ads. TikTok

Jeremy (00:09):
ads. No. No. Not TikTok ads. It's actually a feed drop.
And so Okay. This is somethingthat I have worked with a few
people, some clients to helpthem facilitate it, but I've
never actually done it for ashow of my own. And so, for
anybody who's who's not familiarwith what a feed drop is, do you
wanna give them the the lowdownon that since this is a show
about podcast marketing?

Justin (00:28):
Yeah. It's like when 2 shows that have kind of similar
audiences decide to say, hey.I'll take one of your episodes
and drop it in my feed, and youtake one of my episodes and you
drop it in your feed. And theidea is you're exposing each
other's audiences to eachother's shows with the hope of,
you know, getting some peoplefrom their audience to come to

(00:50):
your show and vice versa.

Jeremy (00:52):
Yeah. And so, this is something I've always wanted to
try. And so when one of ourlisteners actually, Elaine
Appleton Grant, the host of theshow Sound Judgment, She
actually pitched me on this, andI said, okay. I'll, I'll check
with Justin and and see what histhoughts are. And, I know

Justin (01:06):
that you were a little

Jeremy (01:07):
bit, skeptical to start out of it.

Justin (01:09):
Yeah. Like, every time I get one of these pitches, I get
nervous because the problem isoften the show that's being
pitched to me is not that good.Yeah. And so I just remember
thinking, okay. Well, okay.
And then you got me to listen tothe episode, and almost
immediately, it was like, oh,wow. This show is like a 100
times better than our show.It's, like, not even close.

(01:33):
She's, like, so much better thanus. It is very excellent.
This episode that she sharedwith us is like a framework for
designing and implementing acompelling podcast. Like, she
it's like a course. Like, Iwould have paid money to take

(01:54):
this as an audio course, andshe's just giving it away for
free. Super clear, superactionable. It's, like, really
well

Jeremy (02:03):
done. Yeah. And so, essentially, Elaine's show Sound
Judgment, it's a podcast wherein every episode, Elaine brings
listeners inside the minds andactually inside the shows of
some of the world's best podcasthosts and audio producers and
storytellers and they kinda pullapart an episode kinda clip by
clip, taking clips from anepisode and talking through
their creative decisions thatwent into this. And so this is a

(02:24):
show about, like, making greatquality podcast which is
obviously a great fit for usbecause we kind of constantly
are are hammering home this factthat, like, k. Before you get to
the marketing side of things,like, the best marketing is
creating a great show in thefirst place.
And, Elaine has just delivered amasterclass on this with this
episode. So, Yeah. I am ex superexcited for people to be able to
to listen in on this. And, anykind of final notes or prompts

(02:45):
that you wanna leave people withas they, we head into the
episode?

Justin (02:49):
You're gonna wanna take notes. So, like, get yourself
somewhere where you can takesome notes. This is actually
where you're gonna learn how tocreate something compelling. So
we're always telling you, like,you need to create something
really great. She is going toteach you how to create
something great.

Jeremy (03:04):
Yeah. And, we're gonna follow this up at the end of the
episode with some of our notes.I took a ton of notes as I was
going through this, and I'msomething of a a storytelling
and audio nerd. And so, we'regonna break down some of our key
takeaways at the end of theepisode, so stay tuned for that.
But, in the meantime, let's turnit over to Elaine.

Elaine Appleton Grant (03:23):
Hey there, storytellers. A little
origin story from me today. Istarted Sound Judgment because I
was frustrated. There was somuch advice floating around the
Internet about how to marketyour podcast, but there was
almost nothing about how to makesomething unforgettable, useful,
emotionally moving, orentertaining in the first place.

(03:45):
There was very little about thestorytelling craft in audio,
about how to make somethingthat's worthy of listeners'
time.
I've been studying storytellingfor forever, first as a writer,
then an editor, then a radioproducer and reporter, even a
book editor, and, of course, asa podcast producer and the CEO

(04:06):
of a production company. I'vealways been fascinated with what
it takes to become a belovedstoryteller on just about any
platform, including audio. Andhere's the thing. All the
marketing in the world might getyou new listeners, new readers,
new audiences. But to hook themand keep them coming back, to

(04:28):
create a relationship with them,that's a whole other thing.
Today on the show, a 6 partstorytelling framework for
making work that audiencescannot forget. The 6 strategies
you're about to learn are drawnfrom the patterns I've seen
across more than a 150 behindthe scenes lessons, lessons

(04:49):
learned from some of the beststorytellers I've had on sound
judgment. And you can put themto use right away in your
studio, at your writing desk, oron the stage as a public
speaker. So stay with me. We'regonna talk about structure,
scenes, surprise, suspense, asound vision, and specifics, and

(05:10):
how to make storytelling magic.
This is sound judgment where weinvestigate just what it takes
to become a beloved storytellerby pulling apart 1 episode at a
time together. I'm ElaineAppleton Grant. Storytellers,
I'm sure it comes as no surprisethat we have a very short time

(05:33):
to hook listeners into anythingnew, maybe a minute or 2, maybe
less. I've talked about leadsbefore on the show, and I'll do
it again. But here's strategynumber 1, which is something you
may have never given anyconscious thought to, and that
is how you can use sound tocreate the feeling that will

(05:54):
attract your ideal listener.
It's called sound division, andit includes everything from
music and sound design or thelack thereof, to how you
actually sound on the mic. Youknow, friendly, combative,
sophisticated, conspiratorial,silly, fast paced, thoughtful,

(06:15):
whatever it is that makes you,you. In audio, a sound division
is all the things we do to takeadvantage of the cool stuff we
can do when we're bringinginformation and stories to your
ears. Sometimes thepossibilities are so great that
they convince us to tell a storyin sound when we first thought

(06:38):
it belonged on the page. LikeGilbert King, co host of the
award winning podcast BoneValley, about the wrongful
conviction of Leo Schofield.
Leo Schofield has been in prisonfor well over 30 years for a
murder he didn't commit. Beforemaking Bone Valley, Gilbert
thought he'd be writing a longarticle, maybe a book. Then he

(07:01):
and his co host, Kelsey Decker,visited Leo in prison, and
everything changed.

Justin (07:08):
And I think after we interviewed a few people, the
power of their voices and thepower of their storytelling made
us pivot. I love the way theirvoices break and crackle and and
emote, and it's just it'ssomething that's just more
powerful in an audio experience.And as an author, I acknowledge
that in this particular story.

Your sound vision is about creating a
world that your listener wantsto enter. In audio, it's how
intentional you are aboutcreating a tone, a mood, a
feeling. This is how John Barthof Creative Media LLC explained
the idea of a sound vision to meon the second episode of Sound

(07:47):
Judgment. John was the foundingproducer of the public radio
show marketplace. In this clip,he's referring to one of their
hosts, David Brancaccio.
As I said, the unique sound of ashow has a lot to do with the
particular sound of the host, orin literary terms, it's about
finding your voice.

Justin (08:06):
You know, when you're hiring a host, the host really
does imprint, their own soundvoice style on the show. So it
actually begins to define thebrand that you're creating. So
there was an editorial vision,but there also was primarily a
sound vision and I guess I guessI owned that and it needed to be
distinctive. I always imaginedhow the audience was listening

(08:30):
to the show and the kind oflistener I wanted to attract to
the show, and so that had to bea certain sound. And so David
embodies, the willingness topretty much do anything behind a
mic to tell a story and enthrallan audience.
He has incredible humor. Andwhen I worked with him, our goal
was to laugh uproariously beforewe went into the studio to do

(08:53):
the live show. But my job was toget him as a host not only
loosened up, but comfortablewith a real range of emotions.
So by the time that mic went on,he could really bring his full
self to whatever he had to do inthose 30 minutes. I mean, it was
so much fun.
It was great.

Once I wrapped my head around this
term, sound vision, I started tobecome super aware of how it
works when it's working reallywell. It helps, I think, to
compare a couple of extremes.Listen to the difference between
these next two clips. They comefrom podcasts that have one
small thing in common. They'reboth about people trying to make

(09:35):
big changes in their lives, butthey have entirely different
purposes and wildly differentaudiences.
And each employs a sound visiondesigned to attract their own
very specific listeners. Thefirst is an opening scene from
the 13th step. That's aninvestigative series about
sexual misconduct in theaddiction treatment industry

(09:57):
from New Hampshire Public Radio.It won the DuPont award widely
considered the PulitzerBroadcasting. I'll be delving
into the 13th step creativeprocess in a couple of upcoming
episodes of Sound Judgment.
So if you haven't followed SoundJudgment yet, follow it now. The
woman in the clip asking thequestion is reporter Lauren

(10:17):
Children. So so you get there.What do you remember?

Sam Mullins (10:24):
Green Mountain is a completely different vibe than
I'm used to. Like, it didn'tfeel like treatment. But I
remember I had my first, like,real god moment there because
the view is incredible.Actually, it was really cool.
One time, somebody was having areally tough time, and so, like,

(10:46):
we all had the idea, like, hey,Mary Kate.
Can we go down to, thehelicopter landing pad and watch
the sunset? And she brought usdown. We all screamed from the
mountain, and it felt so good.It was like a movie. Like, we
just sat there and screamed.
It was really cool. That wasreally cool. And I remember that
moment. I was like, if there ifif I didn't believe in God

(11:08):
before watching the sunset inthis view, I do now. It was like
that.
Like, it hit me.

Hear how moody that is? How the music
brings you right to thathelicopter pad? It's almost
dreamlike and fairly somber. Notquite threatening but not upbeat
for sure. And the speaker'svoice is untreated.
You can tell she's talking onthe phone. It sounds honest
without any artifice. Just whatyou want from a series produced

(11:35):
by an investigative reporterwho's going to tell you the
truth. Now, let's listen to aclip from Daily Creative, a
personal development podcast forpeople in creative professions.
In this clip, host Todd Henry isrealizing something about
himself.

Todd Henry (11:53):
And begin moving toward a listener supported
model as we build thiscommunity.

Michael Osborne (11:56):
You know, often the enemy of bravery isn't some
oppositional force. It's justsheer inertia. It's comfort.
It's that things are fine. And Irealized, oh, I've got a vision
of a way things could be better.
The thing that's keeping mewhere I am is is comfort. And
then I realized and I have thecapacity to do the thing that I

(12:19):
I see in my head. But what'sstanding in my way really is the
past. It's all of this stuffthat I've been doing for 18
years and the way I've beendoing it.

Now few people would ever actually make
a choice between listening tothese two podcasts. Well, no one
but me and I love them both. Butnotice the way their creators,
Lauren Shulgin and her team atNHPR and Todd Henry and his
producer, Joshua Gutt, made verydeliberate choices about how
they sound. We already talkedhow moody and dramatic the 13th

(12:54):
step sounds in contrasteverything about daily creative
is upbeat light. You know humorwill play a role.
Todd Henry is affable, friendly,even while he's coming to an
uncomfortable truth abouthimself. Yeah. He's gonna decide
to throw out 18 years worth ofwork. The episode is titled The

(13:17):
Curious Death of Todd Henry. Buthe'll do it willingly for the
cause, and we will come alonghappily to improve ourselves as
well.
I chose these two clips becausethey're both fairly highly
produced, and they soundentirely different. I wanted to
illustrate the concept of havinga sound vision that appeals to
your audience. You need to thinkabout how you want them to feel

(13:39):
while they listen. So why shouldyou spend time on this,
especially if you're hosting afairly straightforward interview
show? The truth is we all createsome kind of sonic brand
regardless of whether we plancarefully or fail to plan.
Without design, that sound isoften subconsciously influenced
by what we've been hearing foryears. That's why this American

(14:02):
Life sira glass is so widelymimicked or why so many of us
still adopt the anchor voice.It's also why so many shows
don't hook listeners. They'reflat, bland, unemotional,
frankly, boring. And they oftenlose listeners in the first 60
seconds.
A well thought out sound visionmakes your audio memorable and

(14:24):
differentiates it from thecompetition. But wait, what if
you don't have a podcast? You'rea writer, an author, or a public
speaker. You can translate thisidea to the page, the screen, or
the stage. How will you usewords, tone, mood, and even body
language to attract youraudience?
Same idea. Maybe your readershave little time. They want

(14:47):
facts quickly, no fluff. Ormaybe they like romance novels.
They love detailed descriptionand snappy dialogue.
Or you're giving a motivationalspeech to a roomful of corporate
leaders, and you moveenergetically and speak
dynamically from the heart.That's my idea of a sound vision
translated to a differentplatform. The second s in my

(15:13):
success framework is structure.Remember, all of these
strategies are designed to helpyou not just hook your audience,
but keep them with you. There'snothing like having a structure
for your content to help youcreate more easily while also
instilling habits in youraudience.
Maybe your favorite host alwaysasks the same lightning round
questions, so you always stickaround until the end because

(15:35):
those answers are so much fun.That's structure. Structure also
provides creative constraints.In other words, it gives us
guardrails for what to include,when, and how, and equally
important, what to leave out. Intheir show about dead
celebrities, Famous and Gravy cohosts Amit Kapoor and Michael
Osborne employ one of the mosttightly built structures I've

(15:58):
noticed in a podcast.
The result is a compelling blendof the profound and hilarious.
In each episode, Amit andMichael ask each other the same
twelve questions about each deadcelebrity. They've drawn a
blueprint that makes it easy forthem to wrestle raw content into
meaning that sticks. Thisblueprint, this creative

(16:20):
constraint makes producingeasier. They don't need to
script the show because theyalways know where they're
headed.
It's their answers that make itfun and illuminating. You never
know what's coming. In fact,they barely talk to each other
before they tape. They researchthe celebrity separately and
draw their own conclusions.Their 11th question out of a

(16:40):
dozen is always this, would youwant this dead celebrity's life?
Regular listeners now are in thehabit of listening to the end
because they wanna hear howMichael and Amit will answer
that interesting question andwhether or not they'll agree.
This question leads to somelively discussions.

Justin (17:00):
Betty White.
What do you got? I mean, what's the what's the case
against?

Amit Kapoor (17:02):
Is is there such a thing as too much gratitude? And
that's where I question it.

Justin (17:06):
So that's the Based on everything we've talked about,
Nick, the big question is, doyou want Oliver Sacks' life?

Charles Duhigg (17:12):
It's tough, but I I think I would take it.
Because he had the influence hewas always seeking. He got to do
the thing that he was made foron this earth. The the reason
why it's a qualified

Justin (17:23):
Based on everything we've talked about, do you want
this life?

I like Leonard Cohen.

Justin (17:27):
I don't think that the depths of pain he felt are
familiar to me. But, man, thathe found what looks like
salvation, the hope that thatrepresents not just to other
people, but that that's that'ssomething that comes from the
inside out. So I'm a yes, man.I'm a yes. I want this life.

It's so important to have that and have people be
vocal about that so others By

the way, if you're wondering what the
12th and final question is,you'll just have to follow
Famous and Gravy. The 3rd s isthe backbone of audience
engagement, and that is scenes.Scenes transport listeners to
another place and time. A fewyears ago, I was writing a

(18:10):
script for Wondery Show AmericanScandal, a history podcast. As a
former magazine journalist, Ilove description to a fault.
My producer kept getting rid ofmy description, so former New
York governor Elliot Spitzer'sfamily at his inauguration.
Something has to happen every 2minutes, Elaine, she'd say. I
wasn't happy. But she was right.In plot driven work, the more

(18:34):
action the better.
As one scene leads to the next,binge listeners are born. But
scenes also make good interviewshows great. We tend to call
them anecdotes. They're thestories guests tell if we take
pains to elicit them. They don'thave to be high drama.
Guests don't have to run from agunfight or dangle from a cliff.

(18:57):
Scenes that convey our interiorfeelings are often gripping.
It's human nature to wanna knowwhat other people feel and it's
often through a little storyabout our lives or the life of
someone else that we get to beinside someone's head. This is
where the emotion comes out. Anemotion is what we connect to
and what we remember.

(19:18):
Listen to this simple scene fromthe Rich Roll show. He's
interviewing author CharlesDuhigg about Duhigg's book,
Supercommunicators. Duhigg tellsthis short story as a way of
illustrating a premise of hisbook which is that 2 people can
think they're having the sameconversation, but in fact,
they're not.

Emma Cortland (19:37):
As I was driving over, I was thinking about,
like, where does this book comefrom? And I remembered there's a
there's a number of incidents,but there's this one that I've
actually never talked aboutbefore, which is my wife and I
were on vacation in Florida,which was weird because it's not
like we like Florida or reallygo there very much. But we got
into this screaming fight in ahallway about money, which again

(20:00):
was, like, super strange becauseit's not like something we fight
about. We don't we're we're notreally fighters. And for some
reason, I hadn't thought aboutthis for years, and it just
popped into my mind.
And I was like, you know, whatwe were really talking about
were emotions. Like, we weretalking about the fact that,
like, Liz feels scared that shedoesn't understand that's my
wife. Doesn't feel feel scaredthat she doesn't understand

(20:20):
money. I feel frustrated that Idon't have someone to talk about
money with. Mhmm.
If we had just started theconversation by saying kind of
like what you just did, justsaying, actually, like, let's
talk about our emotions and ourmarriage and how we're relating
to each other right now, itwould have been so much better.
But instead, we started talk wewe were gonna have this

(20:41):
emotional instead of having anemotional conversation, we had
an emotional conversation thatwas disguised as a practical
conversation, and it wasdisastrous. Yeah. There's a
whole thing in the book

Scenes also help listeners take a
sensory journey. As thenarrator, you're taking us with
you. And once humans are on ajourney, we can't help but wanna
see like the bear that went overthe mountain, what's on the
other side. We are engaged. Andin the recounting of a scene, we
get important information abouta character's wants, needs,

(21:10):
values, and emotions.
Here's a great example of ascene that shines because it
calls on the senses. It's fromCrime Show, a former Gimlet
podcast hosted by Emma Cortland.

Steve Barnes (21:24):
To anyone who knows Steve Barnes, it should
come as no surprise that one ofhis earliest memories and
certainly his most vivid memoryis the day that his dad, Gerald,
first introduced him tobaseball.

Katie Culinary (21:36):
He took me to my first game. I wasn't even 2
years old, and he carried methrough the tunnel at Wrigley
Field. And I remember seeing howbeautiful and green it was at
not even 2 years old. I havethat memory planted in my mind
60 something years later where II could tell you exactly what it
looked at. It was the mostbeautiful, lush, gorgeous thing
I ever saw in my life.

Steve Barnes (21:58):
It wasn't just the beauty of the field that seared
that day into Steve's memory. Itwas the fact that that beauty

That clip tells us that Steve will love
baseball for the rest of hislife. And it shows us, doesn't
tell us, why. But also throughthe scene and the tone of his
voice, it tells us somethingabout how much he loves his dad.
His dad, the con man whoseactions killed at least one
person that this crime showepisode is about. Surprise.

(22:30):
Our 4th is in the successframework for hooking your
audience and keeping them withyou is surprise. It's the left
turn when we're expecting aright hand one that makes us
listen. It's the twists andturns of an involved high stakes
plot that we love or the endingof the movie or the novel that
we didn't predict. There'shardly a story or a conversation

(22:52):
or a speech that doesn't needsomething surprising. Katie
Culinary is the senior podcasteditor at New Hampshire Public
Radio.
She fields a lot of pitches fordocumentary series. She's got
her eye out for something inparticular.

Kelly Corrigan (23:07):
What are they doing in the story, and what
access do you have to them? Whatare the surprises or, like, as
we like to call it, the holyshit moments? Every document
story has several of them, Justthe things that make you, oh my
god, you're never gonna believeblah blah blah. The thing about
this story is this. So we wantpeople to start to think about
what are the things that havesurprised them that have either

(23:28):
happened or about the people whoare involved.
Is the story going to peel backa layer of something that maybe
people thought that theyunderstood before and explain it
in a different kind of way.

Now you may not be making documentaries.
Probably not. What if you'reproducing an interview show or
doing a how to or writing a blogpost about baseball or co
hosting a show about the moviesor giving a speech about supply
chain management. For anycontent to be memorable, we have
to learn something we didn'texpect. The search for fresh,

(24:05):
new information is a constant inthe lives of good interviewers.
Kelly Corrigan, host of thepodcast Kelly Corrigan Wonders
and the PBS show Tell Me More,worries about this a lot.

Jeremy (24:18):
I mean, part of what I'm doing is trying to make your
listening or viewing or readingminutes actually worth it. Like,
the the thing that you and I areasking for when we put stuff out
there is attention. And, like,what could be a more exquisite
currency than attention. I mean,in this world where there is so

(24:43):
much coming at you to ask forthat is like asking for
someone's soul. I mean, you areasking for the most precious
thing that they've got.

Through that frame, it couldn't be more
important to offer audiencessomething new. It's not easy.
What's an example of one of yourepisodes that you just think of
off the top of your head, justan intuitive hit, where somebody
told you they hadn't saidsomething before or you found
yourself saying something youhadn't said before?

Jeremy (25:14):
I mean, 90% of the time, something like that happens.
Like, it's happening right now.I have never talked about this
very specific problem that Ioften have before on a
microphone. I've told my husbandabout it. You know, like, when I
finish an interview, he's like,how'd you do?
I'm like, I couldn't I couldn'tget them off their talking

(25:34):
points. And, you know, the moreprofessional they are Samantha
Power is a great example. SoSamantha Power is the head of
USAID. She was the UN ambassadorunder Obama. She's a great
thinker.
She won a Pulitzer for herwriting. She's devoted to making
the world a better place. She'sone of the most impressive

(25:54):
people I've ever met, and she'sconstricted by her job. Like,
she has a big public job wherethere's people who work for her
or who cover her press, and theywanna talk to me beforehand, and
they wanna make sure it's gonnastay on the rails, and we're
gonna cover this and cover that,and I I nod along. And, you
know, I I will satisfy therequirements, but it doesn't

(26:16):
mean I'm gonna stop there.

But as I learned from Kelly, you only
need one moment, one surprise tocreate something that stands
apart, that's different fromwhat everyone else is doing. She
did this in an interview withBryan Stevenson, the world
renowned criminal justiceadvocate and best selling author
of Just Mercy.

Jeremy (26:36):
I didn't know that Bryan Stevenson played the piano
until, like, the morning of theshoot, and and him playing the
piano is such an important partof every day of his life. Here's
another thing I didn't know thatcame up the morning of the
shoot. 150 guys on death rowhave his cell phone number.
That's who they call. He's liketheir family.

(26:58):
He's their brother. He's theirpriest. He's their father. He's
their son, if they're reallyold. So you think about what it
would feel like to be carrying a150 people's fate, and then you
think about how much you wouldneed to play piano.
Like, to step away from all thatand to make something beautiful

(27:22):
and to be alone inside, like, acloud of music. And it it just
was to me, it was like thisincredible unlock of these 2
disparate pieces of informationthat to me seems so related.

So what did you do?

Jeremy (27:38):
I went right there. I brought it right up with him.
And then amazingly on the setwhere we were shooting, there
was a baby grand piano. Andbetween shots he went over. And
I was like, would you like toplay piano?
Like, would that be relaxing foryou? And he's like, I would love
to. So, he's playing the piano,then all the cameramen are like
turning towards him. And so it'sactually a beautiful part of the

(28:02):
episode is when I'm asking himabout it, we cut to the b roll
of him playing piano on a break.

Maya Angelou (28:15):
When I play the piano, it's the one thing that
takes me out of my head. It'sjust fully engaging, so I love
being a kind of just step out ofmy life into this world of
music. And I'm curious aboutevery piano I see. It's a bad,
bad habit, but I wanna know,well, what what does that one
sound like? And what does thatone sound like?

Jeremy (28:34):
You just have to touch every piano

You just I just feel like it's saying something.
I wanna hear what it's saying.Ryan. Ryan.

Justin (28:40):
Come over.

Jeremy (28:43):
And Tell me more. You know, it was like the most
special thing that happened, andand it's not in any other Bryan
Stevenson interview. And that,you know, that's how you
differentiate from 60 minutes orCBS Sunday Morning or whoever
else has, you know, interviewedBryan Stevenson, which is pretty
much everybody. I mean, I'm surehe's been interviewed 1,000
times.

As listeners, we are just as
surprised as Kelly. And so wewon't only remember these human
moments, we'll share them withour friends. In fact, maybe I
should retitle this section onsurprise, how to generate
word-of-mouth and grow yourshow. Surprise goes hand in hand
with the 5th SNR framework forhooking and keeping your

(29:24):
audience, suspense. Now most ofus are not producing true crime.
We're making podcasts thatsupport our business, or we're
interviewing celebrities in ourfield, or we're teaching people
how to do something. So whywould I even use the word
suspense for podcasts orspeeches that aren't about
serial killers or rescues fromdisasters? Here's why. No matter

(29:48):
the medium, any good story,speech, or interview poses a
question and a promise,explicitly or implicitly. A big
question hooks us.
I call it a driving questionbecause a driving question moves
the story or the issue forward.It's the overarching one for
your whole podcast, radio show,your substack even. It's a big

(30:11):
enough question that you cananswer it again and again in
each episode differently. Forinstance, the driving question
in Good Life Project is obvious,what makes a good life? Or how I
built this?
Well, how did she? Or in awhodunit like Bone Valley, the
question is almost always, whohurt someone else and why? In

(30:33):
this case, it's who killed leoschofield's wife the promise
we're making to our listeners isyou will learn the answers but
not yet, or there's no suspense.I'm going back to Famous and
Gravy for the clever way theyfound to create suspense to
start every episode, the quizshow. This is Amit Kapoor.

This is Famous and Gravy, a conversation about
quality of life as we see it, 1dead celebrity at a time. Now
for the opening quiz to revealtoday's dead celebrity.

Justin (31:07):
This person died 2014, age 86. She was a Tony nominated
stage actress. After her firstmarriage, she embarked on a
career as a calypso dancer. Goodgrief.

No idea. Alright. Keep going.

Justin (31:23):
She was a college professor and a ubiquitous
presence on the lecture circuit.She also made several
appearances on Sesame Street.Oh,

Jeremy (31:32):
man. Toni Morrison?

Justin (31:34):
Not Toni Morrison. In 2011, she was awarded the
presidential medal of freedom.

Now that I should know. Although I was busy. I was
busy in 2,011.

Justin (31:43):
I missed it. That whole year?

I missed the entire year.

Justin (31:48):
What an excuse. Throughout her writing, she
explored the concepts ofpersonal identity and resilience
through the multifaceted lens ofrace, sex, family, community,
and the collective past.

It's not Maya Angelou. Angelo. Maya Angelo?
Not Maya Angelo, is it?

Emma Cortland (32:07):
Maya Angelo.

Justin (32:08):
Today's dead celebrity is Maya Angelo.

I didn't even say it right. Maya Angelou.

Justin (32:14):
I've been saying Angelou my whole life, and it's actually
Angelo.

Love you.

I love you, babe. She does not know her beauty.
She thinks

her brown body has no glory. If she could dance

naked on the palm trees and see her image in the
river,

she would know. But there are no palm trees on the
street.

Here's a different kind of great example
from This American Life. A funnything happened on the way to the
quorum is a story about aclassic, dreaded task for early
career journalists covering townmeeting. Is there anything that
is usually more boring? Well, inthe hands of NHPR reporter Sarah
Gibson, this one kept me on theedge of my seat. She employs 2

(33:10):
devices really well, thefunction of time and the inner
feelings of our main characterswho are underdogs.
In the next passage, 2 sistersin the small town of Croydon,
New Hampshire are fighting tokeep their school budget from
being sliced in half. Here, I'mdiscussing it with editor Katie
Connery. 83 people to come to arevote. Mhmm. And if they don't

(33:33):
reach 283 people, and rememberthe whole town is only 800
people, then they're gonna fail.
Amy and Angie are driving fromhouse to house trying to
convince people to come to therevote. They've never done a
campaign like this before. We'remad at this. They they say,
we're not registered voters.Okay.
That's fine.

Okay. Angie and Amy grew up in Croydon.

Their car has an American flag tinted on
the back window. And and theyThe reason I wanted to play this
is because the entire rest ofthe piece is suspense. This
could be practically the samesetup that you use for true
crime. What's gonna happen? Allalong the way, every single
reporting and editorial decisionis made to to make it more

(34:18):
suspenseful.
Are they gonna make it? Are theygonna get this person to come to
the meeting? Are they not? Issomeone gonna run out the clock
at the meeting? What are thevotes going to be?
Etcetera, etcetera. When you areWhat's a creative way that you
could add suspense? And howcould you insert new questions

(34:38):
and conflicts along the way tokeep that curiosity going?
That's my challenge to you.Finally, the more specific we
can make our language, the moresparkling and memorable it is.
In the last 18 months ofspeaking with incredible
storytellers for this podcast,no one has been better at this

(34:59):
than Sam Mullins. In 2023, Samwon the best podcast of the year
award at the Ambeez, the podcastacademy's attempt to rival the
Oscars. Sam won it for hisdocumentary series, Wild Boys
from Campside Media. It's about2 strange teenagers who
mysteriously appear in Sam'shometown of Vernon in British

(35:20):
Columbia. Here's how heintroduces us to Vernon.

Speaker 19 (35:24):
The boys couldn't have known it, but they showed
up in the right place at theright time. In a sense, this
only could have happened inVernon. You need to know about
my hometown. Vernon's located inthe Okanagan, a region in the
interior of British Columbia,sort of halfway between
Vancouver and Calgary.Historically, it's been a middle

(35:46):
class place.
But the whole region has sort ofbeen transformed into an outdoor
playground for the wealthy. TheOkanagan is known for its
vineyards, golf courses, skiresorts, its lakes, and the
mythological beast, the Ogopogo,who lives in one of said lakes,
allegedly. Vernon's a whitetown. It's a hockey town.

(36:09):
There's lots of churches.
There's lots of retired folks.There's a winter carnival parade
every year, and the city hasnever once held a gay pride
parade. The crown jewel ofVernon, and in my opinion, the
whole Okanagan, is KalamalkaLake. It deserves a Google image
search. Seriously, do that now.

Sam never uses the word conservative to
describe the townspeople.Instead, he notes that Vernon
has never held a gay prideparade. If he'd called the
residents conservative,listeners might have glossed
over the story entirely. Worse,they may have begun to silently
argue with the narrator over thestereotype. How do you know?

(36:51):
What do you mean by that? Whoare you? And can I trust you? By
recounting a tiny fact though,Sam has offered us an
indisputable piece of history.He allows us to make of it what
we will.
How does he do this? Sam doesn'thave some secret inborn trait
that makes him excel atspecifics. He's a comedy writer.

(37:11):
He says, I'm obsessed withlists. In this case, he and his
wife played a list making game.
The object was to write 1sentence morsels to describe
Vernon. He gave the resultinglong list to his story editor
Karen Duffin Karen helped himchoose the best morsels to
include in the script we allneed a good editor Even more

(37:34):
interesting is the specific wayhe describes a family in a story
he told for The Moth, a livestorytelling event series and
also a radio show and podcast.

Todd Henry (37:44):
Sprinting around when I'm set at a table of 4.
So, I go up to the table withwater glasses to greet them and
something about these peopleimmediately put me at ease. They
they just seem like really calmand present, and just like good
people. And and right away, thethe, it it was, like, 2 parents
and 2, grown up kids about myage. And, right away the father

(38:05):
shook my hand.
He's like, what's your name? I'mlike, Sam. He's like, you look
like a Sam. And, we startedtalking and having banter and
they were really into the factthat I was a struggling slash
failed actor and writer. And,they kind of became my number
one priority, and they were myoasis in the mayhem.
And and they really knew how todine. Like, they had a lot of

(38:26):
nice appetizers and and finewines. I I

Speaker 19 (38:28):
I cleared all that away, and

Todd Henry (38:30):
I got them set up for entrees.

What elevates this writing to be so
noteworthy, to be sounforgettable, are the words he
uses to tell us not what thesepeople looked like, we never
learned that, but how they madeSam feel. They were my oasis in
the mayhem, he says. And that'sthe 6 S's. All of the stories I
referenced are linked in theshow notes. Go listen to them

(38:54):
with an ear out for what I haveshowed you here.
That's a wrap on my 6 sstorytelling framework. As a
quick reminder, the 6 s's aresound division, structure,
scenes, surprise, suspense, andspecifics. And one other thing,
in narrative, they all wraparound characters who take the

(39:17):
audience on some kind ofjourney. In conversations and
interviews, characters stillmatter a lot, but ideas might be
the star.

Jeremy (39:34):
All right. Welcome back, everyone. After that pretty
amazing, pretty enlighteningepisode that Alain put on with
Sound Judgment, Justin, I wantto throw it over to you for your
reactions and some of yourhometown actually gets a mention
here in the episode. I didn'tknow that it was the most
flattering, but,

Justin (39:53):
did

Jeremy (39:53):
get a mention.

Justin (39:54):
Yeah. It's from Wild Boys, my hometown of Vernon, BC.
Yeah. I thought it was great. Ijust in most communities,
there's, like, these evergreenkeystone pieces of content that
get shared as, like, this is thede facto guide on this topic,
and I feel like she has donethat with storytelling.

(40:17):
Like, she just has this greatframework. I I mean, you just
heard it, and it'll be fun totalk about it. Like, now we have
a framework for discussing it,you and I, and then with the
listener, we're all gonna tradenotes here. And, I mean, if you
geek out about this stuff, thisis, like, the stuff that gets
you kinda fired up.

Jeremy (40:34):
Yeah. And like I mentioned at the start of the
the episode here, I am somethingof a, self identifying
storytelling nerd. Every daywhen I sit down to eat lunch, I
put on a YouTube video by a guy.His name is Brandon McNulty. And
he talks about screenwriting andstorytelling and all these stuff
for both novelists andscreenwriting.
And I watched the 20 minutevideo and I think about and
learn about all these different,like, dialogue writing types of

(40:56):
things. And, like, I'm not ascreenwriter or a novelist or
anything, but I just love thecraft of storytelling. And so
I'm pretty, you know, steeped inthis. I just finished a book on
storytelling the other week.

I've subscribed to a bunch of storytelling
newsletters. And after

Jeremy (41:04):
this 30 minute episode, I subscribed to a bunch of
storytelling newsletters. Andafter this 30 minute episode, I
have tons of notes here that Iwas like, Mhmm. I have never
thought about it in this way andspecifically applying it to
podcasting. Yeah. So I've got abunch of notes here that we can
go through, but I'm curiousabout what stood out to you,
some of the key takeaways, ormaybe how you're thinking about
podcasting differently afterlistening to this episode.

Justin (41:26):
I mean, she just set up such a great framework for
thinking through your show andhow to make it better. Starting
with sound vision, I loved thatidea of sound vision. And often
with storytelling, when peoplesay, oh, you gotta do
storytelling, or oh, you gottado sound design. I always kinda
roll my eyes a bit. It's like,oh, we're gonna get super

(41:47):
precious or super general about,like, storytelling is just,
like, thrown around as thistrope that you need to somehow
sprinkle on top of your show.

Jeremy (41:57):
Yeah.

Justin (41:57):
But I liked the examples she gave. It's a clear example
of how you can, like, pull inexamples and create this vivid
imagery where she goes, like,listen to the difference between
these two clips. And then, like,one is like this untreated on
the phone interview. And she'slike, that sounds honest and
vulnerable. And you're like,yeah.

(42:19):
And then there's another onethat was more produced, upbeat,
humorous, friendly, light, andyou could hear it with the
example. She had a lot of show,don't tell. You know?

Jeremy (42:30):
Yes.

Justin (42:31):
And, again, like, you and I will often say, like,
don't be flat, bland,unemotional, or boring. We're
telling people that, but she'sactually showing people how they
can not do that. And I Iespecially love that she started
there because this is audio.Right? This is, like, what we do
is we craft these audioexperiences.

Jeremy (42:53):
Well and, like, this is something that I think about
this a lot for in terms ofvisual design and copywriting,
some things like that. But andI'm a sound engineer too and
and, you know, I have abackground in record production
and all these things that play arole in that that I have thought
about in podcasting, butsomething as simple as I never
thought about the untreatedphone call. I Yeah. As a almost
like as a sound engineer, mydefault is to make it the

(43:16):
absolute best highest qualityaudio all the time. And Yeah.
That was a a interestingtakeaway from me. I was like,
oh, interesting. You might notactually want that because the
brand that you're trying tocreate of the show, the
experience actually calls forsomething else. And the the
other funny thing is, like, as asound designer as well, if I
wanna make it sound like a phonecall, I would take a recorded

(43:37):
audio file and then put itthrough some processing to make
it sound like a phone call. Andit's like, you you do lose
something in that process.
And so Yeah. This was somethingthat as soon as I I heard that,
then I started thinking aboutour show. And for sake of time
savings and and ease, we'rerunning everything through
Descript using studio sound. AndI'm like, okay. Like, this it
sounds kind of generic.

(43:58):
Like, a lot of shows have thatsound, and that isn't really a
core part of our show right now.And so Yeah. I don't really care
about that, but it ithighlighted this gap where I was
like, Yeah. That is aninteresting decision about we
might in the future want toactually make some more
intentional choices about howwe're processing our audio and

(44:18):
things like that. And right now,it doesn't matter and it won't
matter for everyone, But that isa lever that everybody can
choose to pull and dial in oneway or the other.

Justin (44:26):
Yeah. I mean, I think this goes back to, like, what
are you trying to accomplishwith the show? Mhmm. And but I
think this made me think aboutour conversation about serial
versus episodic shows. Andagain, in this case, like, this
episode on storytelling can liveforever.
It's evergreen, and it'sdesigned. It's got structure. It

(44:49):
has lots of sound design in it,and they can put in the extra
work because it's going to livefor a long time. And I think you
can think about episodes thatway. It's like, okay.
Doing an episode this way isgonna take way more effort, but
Mhmm. We're doing that becausewe believe this is evergreen,
keystone content that's going tokinda live on for a long time.

(45:12):
It's worth putting in theeffort. Whereas, a different
type of show format, you mightneed to scale it back.

Mhmm.

Justin (45:18):
I mean, even our intro music has a feel and

Mhmm.

Justin (45:23):
You pull a clip, and then there's some emotion to
that. And so I think people canuse a little bit of this, like,
craft a little bit of this intotheir show even if it's just,
you know, 2 guys gettingtogether every week.

Jeremy (45:35):
Yeah. The other thing that just popped into my mind as
you were talking there was we'vetalked about in the roast as
well, especially with cover artand the role of the photo and
how important that photo is ofshaping a listener's perception
of the show. And it makes methink that we have both listened
to many shows that maybe thecontent, like, the actual
information inside the episodeis good. But a lot of times, if

(45:57):
the audio quality isn't great,and this isn't to say that it
needs to be Elaine's level sounddesign and pulling in clips and
everything, but if you're justusing your laptop mic or a cheap
mic or the mic isn't positionedclose to your mouth, Yeah. There
is something that iscommunicated there that lowers
the feeling of connection orintimacy or trust and I think
that this is something thatthere is so much talk and

(46:19):
podcasting of, like, oh, youdon't need to spend a lot of
money on a microphone or and andit's true.
You don't. But I think that youdo need to spend enough and care
enough about how you are comingacross because just like the
cover art conveys somethingabout whether we should trust
you or not and whether maybe wewant to keep listening or sign
up for a product or service thatyou're offering. The audio
quality plays a huge role inthat as well. And so this is

(46:39):
something I think people shouldbe certainly spending some time
thinking about at least.

Justin (46:44):
Agreed. Alright. So let's move on to the next s in
her framework structure. I justlove this line. I wanted to make
sure we covered it.
So she says, okay. This show hasdiscovered a blueprint that
helps them wrestle raw contentinto meaning that sticks. Mhmm.
I just loved that line, thisidea of, like, a structure helps

(47:04):
you wrestle. This is always theproblem creative people have is,
okay, I've got all thisinspiration and ideas, and we
could do this and this and this.
And then it's like, what doesstructure help you do? It helps
you wrestle all of that rawmaterial into content that has
meaning and sticks. Yeah. Andshe has such a way with words.
You can tell that this is alljust it's very well written.

(47:27):
And some of these can be simple,like, about deciding what do you
include and what do you leaveout. But just making a decision,
for example, to, you know, wealways answer this question at
the end of the episode, so thelistener is gonna wait until the
end of the episode Mhmm. To hearthem talk about that question
that they always answer, youknow. So you're setting up a

(47:47):
pace and a format that listenerscan follow, and they're
expecting, I can't wait tillthey get to this bit that they
always

Jeremy (47:55):
do. Yeah. I feel like one of the things with structure
and yeah. People creative peoplerail against it. I am certainly
have been one of those people,but also have kind of seen the
light now and and lovestructure.
And one of the things that thatI think a solid structure that
is well communicated in theshow's packaging and messaging
and and copy and showdescription everything as well
can do is it makes the valueseem more reliable that you're

(48:17):
going to deliver on it. And soYeah. Shows with a great
structure. Partly, I think itjust communicates that thought
has gone into this. And that'snot something that listeners
will think to themselves, butit's something that they will
intuit.
And then I also think it helpswith the pacing of the episode
where you kind of there's thiscadence that you kind of stick
to as the host because you know,oh we've got these 3 sections to
go through and so it kind ofkeeps you moving and there's

(48:38):
momentum to it. And you candefine those different out
aspects of a show to be able tokinda build on each other. And
so one thing that I've been kindof experimenting with, and this
actually plays into this next sof scenes

Yeah.

Jeremy (48:50):
Recently as we've been mapping out the episodes, I've
been thinking about, okay, Iwanna have 3 scenes per episode.
And so first we're gonna talkabout this, then we're gonna
talk about this, then we'regonna talk about this. And so
this isn't something that weexplicitly communicate
necessarily through any kind ofsound design or like, okay. Now
we're wrapping up scene 1 andwe're moving to scene 2 but it
does guide the conversation andthis one line here in the scenes

(49:11):
section, something needs tohappen every 2 minutes. This is
something that I think this is ahigh bar for almost every show
and it was something that I waslike, whew.
Yeah. That I mean, the greatshows, you can feel as a
listener, like, stuff isconstantly developing. And this
is something, you know, Imentioned I watch a lot of,
screenwriting content and I justfinished this book called The
Story Grid and, fantastic book.I think everybody should read it

(49:33):
who makes any kind of content,especially written content. But
one of the things they talkabout, and this is kind of
screenwriting 101 thatessentially like every scene,
something needs to happen.
The story needs to be movedforward. And I think that this
is something that in a film or anovel, like a scene might take
quite a bit of time. But I thinkin a podcast, it's much smaller
typically. But I I think thateverybody should be thinking
about like, okay, with eachquestion that I'm asking, what

(49:57):
job is that question doing tomove this interview forward?
Like, we have a goal that we'retrying to get somewhere.
Every question should be inservice of that goal and there's
forward progress. Like we'removing forward and there's a
reason that this question shouldbe here. So I thought this was
fantastic, and she talks againabout the show, don't tell. And
I also like this note that shehad about eliciting anecdotes
from people that was was reallygreat.

Justin (50:16):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I the the idea of scenes has been
helpful for us in this show evenif it's just, like, 3 scenes. It
helps

Jeremy (50:23):
kind

Justin (50:23):
of set again some framework for the show. And I I
think also setting up even in ashow like we do, which is
nonfiction, very, like,educational content, you can
still give it a format thathelps you as the creator and the
listener move through eachepisode.

Jeremy (50:42):
Yeah. Okay. So what about, s number 4 here?
Surprise. This is something Ihave thought a lot about in
writing and a little bit inpodcasting as well.
What were your kinda takeawayson that one?

Justin (50:53):
Yeah. I I mean, this is something I think about a lot,
and it's, like, hard to buildinto a show. The whole time I
was listening, I'm like, okay.How could Jeremy and I apply
this to this show? And one thingI think we've learned is one way
to introduce surprise in a showwith cohosts is anytime either
of us go, well, actually, Idon't agree with you.

(51:15):
It's like, what? Yeah. Like,there's some surprise and
suspense, which is her next s.It's like, okay. Wow.
We got we've just introducedsome tension
here,
and I wasn't expecting that. You know, you expect
people to just agree. And so Ithink you can learn as a co host
what are the things I can do tokind of trigger some of that

(51:36):
surprise. Sometimes you'll belike, hey, Justin. I found
something that you probablywon't guess.
Can you guess it? And it's like,oh, okay. Like and then there's
some surprising fact or Mhmm. Soto keep these little nuggets or
to have a burst of inspirationas you're talking and the
inclination to be, like, oh, I'mgonna introduce a little little

(51:57):
right hand turn here, left handturn where people weren't
expecting it.

Jeremy (52:00):
Yeah. I think with cohosts, like, one of the
things, we we map out ourepisodes that we have some rough
points, but a lot of times we'retalking through them and we're
like, actually, let's not talkabout too that too much. I'm
gonna save that for the episode.And so there's this kind of
like, okay, we've got astructure, but we're gonna
withhold some of specificsbecause we wanna get the actual
reaction to it. And then there'sbeen some episodes as well.
Like, this actually on the flywhen we were recording our

(52:21):
episode on podcast budgets. Andyou kinda started off the
episode with this question ofwhat do you think we could do if
we had some budget? Do you thinkyou'd be able to grow it? And
this wasn't actually somethingwe'd mapped out in advance. We
had our structure, but we didn'tknow how we're gonna get into
it.
And so I was like, okay. That'san interesting question. And
then as soon as you prompted mewith that, I was like, oh,
actually, this is gonna be agood closer to the episode
because we'll talk through our 3kind of budget tiers. And then

(52:42):
I'm gonna come back to Justinand say, okay. So you actually
posed this question to me at thestart about what if we had no
budget.
And this is kind of a surprisethat wasn't worked into the
script that I was like, okay.I'm actually excited to turn it
around on him here and open upthis this conversation that we
haven't discussed based oneverything that we did. So I
think with cohosts, you cankinda do a bit of that. And I
think with interviews withstandard types of guests where

(53:03):
you you don't really know theguest maybe that well, a lot of
it comes down to intuition, Ithink. And you have to kind of
follow your own nose forsurprise and there's this great
Robert Frost quote, no surprisein the writer, no surprise in
the reader.

Mhmm.

Jeremy (53:15):
And I think that this is something that a lot of times
hosts wanna come across,especially people who are for
their business. They would wannacome across as almost knowing
everything already, knowing allthe answers. And I think that
this is a recipe for a boringpodcast because if it's if
you're not following your owncuriosity and finding things
that are really fascinating toyou and asking specific

(53:36):
follow-up questions and gettingpeople to go deeper and pushing
the guest a little bit on that,or a lot on their answers. I
think that's where you get tosurprising insights because
every guest by nature is goingto give the top of mind easiest
response which is going to bethe most boring. And so I think
you necessarily need to pushpeople to get more specific, to
go deeper, to give you storiesand most of us are too polite to

(53:57):
do this but in my experience asa listener, these are the
absolute best podcast to listento or at least the best
interview style shows when thehost is willing to push the
guest.
And the few times when somebodyhas done that to me, they've
been my favorite interviews as aguest as well because they made
me think about things in newways and come up with surprising
conclusions. So a couple ofnotes there depending on your
show type of maybe where you cankind of take that.

Justin (54:18):
And I think for both of these, surprise and suspense, I
like to look at it through thelens of play. Like, I just wanna
play here, and it's there'salmost, like, something a little
mischievous, but fun and cheekyabout being in a conversation
and going, I'm gonna ask Jeremythis question and see how he
reacts. There's some playfulnessto that that works for me.

(54:43):
That's kind of, like, what drawsme into creating a sense of
surprise or suspense. I thinkthe other thing with suspense,
which is the next one, is I wasthinking about this in terms of
you can create suspense, in asingle episode, but also over a
whole series.
And so Yeah. Like, the show Johnand I did while we were building
transistor was a show aboutbuilding the business, and there

(55:06):
was suspense for all of usbecause we didn't know how it
was gonna turn out. It's like,we're trying to do this, and we
were sharing our revenue numbersand all of our struggles. And it
created the sense in real timeof what's going to happen. Are
they going to make it?
So I think you can think ofshows like that as well. Like,

(55:26):
how can we create suspense overthe arc of the show, and how can
we create suspense within anepisode. And that could be this
episode, John and I are gonnatry to solve this problem on the
episode. We don't know how we'regonna do it. We're gonna talk it
out.
Come along, and it's like, oh,wow. Okay. Are they gonna be
able to resolve this? You know,are they gonna quit? There's all

(55:49):
these, like, answers that peoplewant, and I I love this idea of
a big question that hooks us.
Like, what's a driving questionthat just drives and moves the
whole story forward?

Jeremy (56:02):
Yeah. And I think the other thing that where this
plays into the suspense withinterviews is it's again going
back to that same point of youlook at some of the best,
especially, like, public radiostyle host or you think of
somebody on, like, a show thatcomes to mind for me is the New
York Times, The Daily Show. Andthis is a show where the hosts
know all the answers. And thisis true for most highly produced
public radio style shows. Thehost knows all the answers what

(56:24):
the guest is gonna say going in,but they feign ignorance.
And Yeah. They don't let youknow. They don't have the urge
to to make sure that you as thelistener know that, hey. I know
where this is going and I knowall the answers already. They
are facilitating bringing it outof the guest, and they're
actually building tension in byplaying dumb to some extent.
And this is something that Ithink you start to listen to
these great hosts and it'sclear, like, they're guiding the

(56:45):
the episode so well because theyalready know where this is
going. They know mostly what theguest is going to say, but they
are going to, like, create thattension by asking some of the
kind of quote unquote dumbquestions that the listener
might have in their mind to beable to play into some of these
things and maybe like hint atsome wrong turns and play
devil's advocate a little bit.And I think that these are all
things that it's delaying thatgratification of getting to the
answer by kind of, like, theyknow where they're going, but

(57:07):
they're gonna lead us down a fewrabbit trails that are
ultimately gonna give us somered herrings maybe that then
make the payoff much sweeter inthe end.

Justin (57:14):
Yeah. I think when people do their intros for
guests, they're often toopolite. It's like Robert Frost
was a great American writer andthat that that it's, like, give
us something that's gonna pullus in. And Marc Maron is good at
this. He'll be like, oh, I hadthis person in the garage, and,
wow, we kinda got into it.
And then all of a sudden, it'slike, oh, wow. Okay. I'm gonna
stick around to see whathappened. Was there some sort of

(57:36):
conflict or something? So givethe listener something from the
interview that they can lookforward to.
Like, introduce some suspenseright off the bat. Like, I've
heard so many interviews withthis person, but I asked them
this one question, and ittotally stumped them. And they
ended up revealing some things.It's like, oh, okay. I gotta I
gotta listen to this.
You know?

Jeremy (57:55):
Yeah. Alright. And so then we got the final SCR
specifics. We kinda talked aboutthis a little bit. We've
actually talked a lot about thisin the the roast episodes.
And specifically, when it comesto the the copywriting and the
messaging and episode titles,all these places where, like,
the, Lay mentioned in theepisode here, you know, the more
specific detail you can givesomebody, the more it builds the
scene out in their mind duringthe show. This is great for

(58:17):
storytelling, but it's alsogreat for teaching. And so I
think one of the things that Ioften tell people when I'm,
like, auditing their shows or ordoing something along those
lines, as educators, we tend towant to, I think, speak in
concepts so that it is asbroadly applicable to everybody
as possible. And we don't wannasay, like, give one very ultra
specific example because like,oh, well, what if that doesn't
apply to everyone? But there'sthis other great quote that I

(58:39):
love.
I got this from, the On Beingpodcast. I think it was from one
of the guests but I've heardthem use it a lot. And it's the
universal is in the particular.And as soon as I heard that
quote, I was like, oh, that isso true that it's actually by
sharing these very ultraspecific examples that people
actually extrapolate into theirown lives. And this is something
that I think is great forexploring stories that like any

(59:03):
story that's ever resonated withyou.
It wasn't this broad genericstory. It was the story of 1
person in a very specificscenario that you were able to
intuit some of the lessons fromthat and the experiences and saw
how it aligned with your ownlife. And so I think that this
is something at every level fromlike getting a guest to share
their story and articulate likewhat's going on in the scene?
What was the smells? What wereyou you seeing down to, like,
the guest just shared something.

(59:24):
You're like, okay. Can you giveme a specific example of, like,
how this would apply in thisultra niche scenario that you
know is relevant to at least aportion of your audience? And
actually, the whole rest of youraudience, even if they're not in
that specific narrow segment,they're going to understand the
concept better in action aswell.

Justin (59:40):
Yeah. My friend Adam Wadden is really good at this.
He'll be have a guest, andthey'll say something like a
general concept or, you know, aprinciple. And he'll say, can
you give me a specific exampleof how that works in your
business or in your work orwhatever? And it really pushes
the guest to come up withsomething real, tangible.

(01:00:01):
And then Adam keeps driving moreand more into that example to
get more and more specifics outof the guest. It's very
compelling. Because as alistener, you're like, yeah.
Like, I had the same question.Like, let's get to the bottom of
this.
Let's figure out what's going onhere.

Jeremy (01:00:17):
Yeah. And that's another example of, like, that adds
tension and suspense because wedon't know. This is where it
gets into almost this kind ofdialogue writing where there's
this push and pull and this,like, this dance that goes on
where, like, you as the host nowapply some pressure, and now
they have to react. And I thinkthat this is the whole appeal of
sports is that we don't knowwhat's going to happen where one
player or one team doessomething and now the other team

(01:00:38):
has to react to it, and it takesplace in conversation too If we
are willing to put some pressureon our guests and make them be
more specific and follow those,those rabbit trails and kind of
define the things they'retalking about. As a listener,
you feel that and it's like, oh,yeah.
I guess that wasn't that greatan answer initially. And getting
them to get more specific withit is a a great way to do that.

Justin (01:00:57):
Yes. Absolutely.

Jeremy (01:01:00):
So we've covered the s's here. The last thing that I
wanna talk about here was thepitch. And so I mentioned at the
top of the episode that Elainereached out to me with this
pitch pitch for this episode.You're a little bit skeptical at
the start, but Yeah. I want toknow from your perspective,
like, what are the keys tomaking a great pitch for a kinda
collaboration like this?

Justin (01:01:17):
I mean, it helped that she was listening to the show.
Yep. It helped that she alreadyhad a relationship with you. It
helped that there's a connectionthere where you could say, like,
you know, I know this person. Itrust this person.
And then it really helped thatthey had a show that was, like
like I said, a 100 times betterthan our show. It just made it a

(01:01:38):
no brainer that it was such anexcellent product. It felt like
us sharing this with ourlisteners is like doing our
listeners a great service. It'slike, wow. We found something
amazing, and now we're justgonna give it to you.
Where often fee drops feel verypromotional and self serving.

Jeremy (01:01:56):
Yeah. And so for for context here, so Elaine actually
went through one of myaccelerator 6 week live cohort
programs 2 years ago orsomething like that. So we've
known each other for a while,and I know that she has a
background in public radio. Shehas collaborated with other
members from my community in thepast who we also know and like.
So there's all this kind ofnetwork.
Like, she has been a part of mypersonal network and I've known
her and I had listened to hershow before. And so I knew,

(01:02:19):
like, she had the chops. Andthen when she reached out, I was
like, oh, yeah. Like, of course,this is the perfect fit. And so
then I brought it to you and waskind of like, you know, I kind
of vouch for Elaine, but youjust listened to the episode and
we're like, oh, yeah.
Of course. Like, how could howcould we not do this? So I think
there's there's so many thingshere, and I think pitching it as
well with this angle where thisshow about storytelling and even

(01:02:42):
the title of this episode, howshe's titled it in her feed,
which is storytelling principlesto hook and keep your listeners,
which is something, you know, wetalk about a lot. And so Yeah.
She is a reader of mynewsletter.
She'd shared our podcast. Shecites the stuff that we're
talking about. And so she wasable to say, like, oh, this
aligns very closely with all thestuff you talk about. And it
was, like, just a no brainer for

Justin (01:03:00):
us. Yeah. And I I think the other answer is don't do the
bullshit. Like, there's so muchbullshit pitches where they're
like, hey. I listened to yourlatest episode, and I think this
episode would be a great fit foryour audience.
And it's like, fuck off. You arenot good for our audience.
You're lying to me. It's justbullshit. But in this case, I

(01:03:21):
think she could be reasonablyconfident that she had produced
something great Yeah.
That it would be beneficial forour audience, and it was just,
like, that clear. So if you'reconfident about it, if you're
not just making shit up, if thisis actually, like, you know no.
This is gonna be good for youraudience. I have something of

(01:03:42):
value to bring to your audience,And I think maybe that's what
makes pitches difficult isbecause there's so much bullshit
in people's inboxes, so manypeople lying or being
disingenuous. So it's almostgonna require that you build
relationships, you buildconnections, you build up trust,
and then you earn the right tosay, oh, hey.

(01:04:03):
Listen, Jeremy. I've madesomething great. I think it'd be
great for your audience, andthen go from there.

Jeremy (01:04:09):
Yeah. And, I mean, I think we all wanna take the
shortest path to success, andwe've all taken shortcuts at
times. But what I have learnedafter making many mistakes in
that regard is that you shouldbasically operate with the
assumption that if you know thatthat you're trying to cut a
corner, assume that everybodyelse can see that as well
because they a 100% can. Andonce you start to think about it
like that way, you're like,because we know when we're

(01:04:31):
trying to shortcut the process.Like, there's no lying to
yourself.
And so if you take theassumption that, like, okay,
what if everybody else could seeme do this? That will limit the
types of activities you engagewith for the better. Like yeah.
Because they weren't gonna workanyway. And so you're saving
yourself the time.
You're saving yourself thereputation, which the harm to
your reputation in the long termis a much bigger downside than

(01:04:52):
any potential small gains in theshort term. And so Yeah. That's
the the heuristic that I go by,and, I wish more people would do
that as well.

Justin (01:04:59):
Yeah. Me too. Me too. But this was this was just
incredible. I'm I'm so glad.
I feel, like, thankful that sheshared it with us because I got
so much out of it.

Jeremy (01:05:09):
Yeah. Me too. So if you enjoyed this episode from Elaine
and want more of Sound Judgment,you can find the show wherever
you are listening to thispodcast.

Justin (01:05:18):
And, we'd love for this to become a conversation with
our listeners. So if you havethings, takeaways you wanna talk
about, reach out to us on socialmedia. Let's start a
conversation around thisframework that Elaine,
introduced and see how we canimplement it in the shows that
we're producing.

Jeremy (01:05:36):
Yeah. And we're gonna be doing a write up on some of the
takeaways from how this feeddrop actually performed in terms
of listener growth and crosspromotion and our kind of
process behind it. So stay tunedfor that as well. And we will be
sharing that in the

Sam Mullins (01:05:52):
future.

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