Why do people listen to podcasts? And why do they listen to YOUR podcast (or one like yours)? It turns out, the answers to these questions can be found in a nerdy, obscure marketing concept called Jobs to Be Done Theory.
Jobs to Be Done Theory origins date back to the 1930s, but was more fully developed by Harvard Business School researched Clayton Christiansen—primarily through an iconic case study about milkshakes… and how people don’t buy milkshakes for the obvious reasons you might think.
But JTBD applies to much more than milkshakes. In fact, it applies to every product, service, piece of content—including podcasts—that any of us spend time, money, or attention to consume.
In this episode, we’ll break down how to apply JTBD theory to boost the effectiveness of your marketing by aligning your content, messaging, and packaging with the job your listeners are seeking out a show to do.
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Topics Covered
00:00 Case Study: How Justin “Hires” Different Shows
02:31 An Introduction to Jobs to Be Done Theory
08:24 The Importance of Emotional Resonance in Podcasts
13:06 Assessing Podcast Growth by “Job”
21:19 Understanding Listener Psychology
26:12 Understanding Trigger Events
30:39 Examples of Trigger Events
35:50 Challenges and Opportunities for Problem Solver Shows
41:36 Challenges and Opportunities for Pleasure Giver Shows
45:04 Leveraging Listener Behavior for Show Growth
51:50 Practical Examples of Podcast Jobs to Be Done
⭐️ Take our 2-minute podcast marketing audit to instantly identify the marketing problems keeping you from growth: https://go.podcastmarketingacademy.com/audit-pmte-sn ⭐️
Resources Mentioned
Clayton Christensen
Additional Resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy (00:01):
People have jobs that they need done in their life,
and so they hire content to dothose jobs for them.
Justin (00:08):
Your podcast is one of those things, and you just need
to think about how am I gonnaget people to hire this show,
this episode.
Jeremy (00:16):
The thing that people are coming to get is the problem
that they want solved, but thenthey keep coming back because
there's something sticky aboutthe show emotionally.
Justin (00:23):
Being a pure problem solver, even though it kinda
makes sense practically, I thinkyou're gonna miss what makes
podcasting so great.
Jeremy (00:36):
So, Justin, I want you to picture yourself. It's a
random Wednesday morning, andyou're about to walk down from
your house to the office, andyou're gonna listen to a podcast
on the way. Let's just say thatfive shows that you subscribe to
have all released new episodesin the past couple days since
you listened. Walk me throughthe mental thought process. How
do you decide which show you'regonna listen to?
Justin (00:57):
It's different whether I'm walking to the office or
walking home from the office.When usually when I'm walking to
the office, I want something tohelp inspire me for the work I'm
about to do. I wanna get in thatkind of work mindset. I wanna be
thinking about markets or ways Icould improve the business or
(01:22):
maybe having two founders talkabout their journey. And it
serves to get me amped up forthe day, give me ideas, give me
things I want to talk to theteam about.
Jeremy (01:33):
So Okay.
Justin (01:34):
Yeah. Often I'm choosing stuff that's related to work and
business and giving me insightinto all those things.
Jeremy (01:44):
And then, how does that differ from on the walk home?
Justin (01:46):
Walk home, it's like help me, not deflate from the
day, help me calm down from theday, help me prepare myself for
home. Usually, these are moreoften maybe a solo podcast or a
duo that's kind of comforting,maybe more personal, maybe they
(02:07):
talk more about family and home.Sometimes it might be about
current affairs, like maybesomething crazy has happened in
the world, and I just want avoice of reason to help me make
sense of, you know, the thecrazy world we live in. So,
yeah. Usually, it's more calmingwhen I'm on my way home, or it
(02:28):
could be entertaining as well.
Just like, I wanna unravel abit.
Jeremy (02:32):
Okay. So, basically, it sounds to me like you described,
one of our favorite nerdyconcepts, which is jobs to be
done theory, which we havereferenced, a number of times,
not every episode, but almostevery episode of this show,
podcast marketing trendsexplained, and also our other
show, roast my podcast. Mhmm. Itcomes up quite a bit in there as
(02:53):
well. But we've never actuallydone a super deep dive on what
jobs to be done theory is, howit applies to podcasting, how it
applies to the decisions that weall make as consumers each and
every day.
And there's actually that a lotthat I think we can learn as
creators about you know, themore we understand why our
listeners might be reaching fora show like ours, the better we
(03:14):
can align our marketing withthat. So, in this episode, we're
gonna dig into some of thedetails of what this theory is,
how we can put it to use forourselves, in our marketing.
That sound good to you?
Justin (03:24):
Yeah. Sounds great. I think this is crucial to
understand this concept. It'ssimple as a concept, but its
ramifications are quite deep. SoI think the more people can
think with this paradigm, thebetter they'll be able to craft
their shows and the pitch fortheir shows.
Jeremy (03:41):
Okay. So maybe before we dive into any of the data here,
I'm curious if you could justgive the kind of general
overview of, like, what is jobsto be done theory?
Justin (03:51):
Jobs to be done is big picture, and it encapsulates why
a podcast listener or a consumerwill buy a product. What are all
the reasons that lead somebodyto choosing a podcast and then
continuing to listen to apodcast? And in the business
world, this has been used todescribe why people buy
(04:13):
products, and why they continueto use products. It was
popularized by Harvardresearcher Clayton Christensen.
He came up with the innovator'sdilemma, and he wrote a book on
this called Competing AgainstLuck, which is very good.
But, yeah, generally, itdescribes, you know, what are
the reasons, and they're oftenemotional reasons, why do people
choose one product over another?Why do they choose one podcast
(04:36):
over another? Why do they chooseone podcast episode over
another?
Jeremy (04:41):
The thing when we're talking about, like, jobs to be
done here, essentially, at theroot of this theory is that
people have needs or they havejobs that they need done in
their life. And so they, quote,unquote, hire products,
podcasts, content to do thosejobs for them. And so they, you
know, want to feel a certain wayas we've kind of talked about
Justin walking to, work in themorning. He wants to feel a
(05:03):
certain way, so he reaches for acertain podcast. He hires that
podcast to get him in themindset for work.
Whereas on the way home, then hehires a different podcast to
help him transition out of workand into home life. And so if
you start looking at your ownbehavior about why you reach for
certain podcasts or open certainnewsletters or make any decision
in your life, usually, it's likethere's some desire to feel a
(05:24):
certain way, and so we reach fora tool to help us achieve that
thing. And you could look at wetreat food that way. You think
of any kind of, like,substances, drugs, alcohol,
anything. Like, we are reachingfor something to make us feel a
certain way, reaching for a toolto do a job for us.
And so this is kind of the theheart and soul of of jobs to be
done. So Mhmm. This was actuallyone of the questions that I was
(05:46):
curious about this year goinginto the report, was basically
trying to understand, like, whatare the jobs to be done of the
shows who submitted their data,to the podcast marketing trends
report, and what can we see fromthat data in terms of, like, the
growth potential of shows? Werethere a certain type of job that
high growth shows tended tocluster around versus low growth
(06:07):
shows? And so, basically, we goteverybody to submit their shows.
And, basically, one by one, Iwent through the show
descriptions of all of theseshows and the the title and
cover art and all the packaging,and I basically assigned, each
show a category of the generaljob that it does. And so there
are basically four kind of broadcategories here that I classify
the shows into. And so the firstis problem solver. And so
(06:29):
that's, you know, pretty obvioushere. It's a show that purports
to, make your life better insome way and so maybe help you
get in better shape or helpimprove your finances or learn
x, y, or z or whatever thatmight be.
Problem solvers are prettyclear, you know, what the show
is promising to the listeners.The other kind of broad category
is pleasure giver. A lot oftimes we think about education
versus entertainment, but Ithink that this is actually a
(06:52):
little bit of a better framingto use. It's like problem
solver. It says, we will helpyou do this.
There's, a defined outcome tolisten to the show. Pleasure
giver is a show that it just,like, makes you feel good in
some way or help you kind ofexperience something. Like,
maybe it lifts your mood, like,shows that put you to sleep.
That's kind of a pleasure givershow because it's like, you're
gonna be happier. It's morepleasing to be asleep than lying
(07:13):
awake.
And so it's it's something thatis not a problem solver. So
broad catch all turn here. Andthen I had a subcategory within
that that is this kind ofinteresting show that almost
straddles the two. And I wouldthink of a show like
Freakonomics or, any of, like,Malcolm Gladwell's work is kind
of in this think piece type showwhere it's not really
entertainment so much. You don'tthink about it as you listen to
(07:35):
it to kind of get some kind ofpleasure, but it's also not an
explicit problem solver.
Like, Ezra Klein is anotherexample here. You're listening
to it to get smarter, but it'snot an end result of listening
to this show. And so these arethe the three kind of main
categories there. ThinkPieceskind of under pleasure giver,
and then the fourth category isunclear. And so there was a
bunch of shows that the thereally common giveaway here when
(07:58):
I was going through thedescriptions where the show
description would say somethinglike a conversation about topic.
And
Justin (08:06):
you read that, and you're like,
Jeremy (08:07):
well, a conversation about writing. Okay. What does
that mean? Does it help me be abetter writer? Is it just to me
to listen to, you know, authorstalk about their writing?
You know, that could be a very,like, a pleasure giving show. Do
you feel like there's any kindof dominant show within those
categories?
Justin (08:25):
So I I'll I'll say off the top that jobs to be done
theory, there's some differentfacets to it, and some people
gravitate to certain facets morethan others. I tend to feel that
jobs to be done are almostalways emotional. They're giving
you some sort of emotionalbenefit. Yeah, I think Pleasure
(08:45):
Giver and Think Peace, I thinkthose are the dominant for me
personally. And even in theproblem solving component, I'm
feeling like there's still anemotional piece of that.
Like this show, it's helping meunderstand how to run my
business finances better. Butit's also like making me feel a
(09:09):
certain way. And that could justbe, this show is entertaining.
This show makes me feel like Ihave a voice. This show is
giving a voice to somethingthat's inside of me that I
haven't been able to articulate.
This show is reassuring me. Thisshow is comforting me. So,
there's an emotional componenton these that I think that gives
(09:32):
the show some resonance. Problemsolving also, I think you see
this mostly, like trulyutilitarian problem solving. You
see this more on YouTube thanpodcasts.
Help me to fix my dryer. Theprimary thing that's pulling
somebody is like, I need to fixthis dryer. How do I fix my
dryer? Done. Podcasts are Inorder to keep people coming
(09:56):
back, because they're long form,they always need to be
emotionally resonant in someway.
And so, even if you had apodcast that was like home
repair makeover, like you'regonna help people who don't like
home repair to get better at it,There's gotta be something
(10:16):
emotionally resonant about it.Like, you love the host, you
love the way they make you feel,you love the way they encourage
you, you love the person you'rebecoming as you're listening to
the show, You love the journeythat you're on, or you love the
journey that the hosts are on.So that's some of what I'm
thinking of as you're goingthrough this.
Jeremy (10:35):
You know, I agree with you on that. And I think a lot
of shows that want to positionthemselves or do position
themselves as problem solversoften that that that is a viable
way to position a show, andwe're gonna look at some of the
data here. But I think theyoften neglect the emotional
needs that they're satisfyingfor listeners as well. And so I
think if you can bring inmultiple layers it's just a much
(10:55):
stickier show where maybe thething that people are coming to
get is the problem that theywant solved, but then they keep
coming back because there'ssomething sticky about the show
emotionally where it's like, oh,maybe even after they solve the
problem, they still keeplistening to the show to get
whatever that emotional need is.
Justin (11:10):
Yeah. And you know what this makes me think of is two
things. One, these new AIgenerated Google Notebook or,
podcasts NotebookLM. Those areoften problem solving shows.
Like, hey, let's have aconversation that kinda sounds
human between two co hosts abouta topic.
(11:30):
Right? So let's talk about WorldWar two, or let's talk about the
North American free trade, orwhatever it is. Sure. Yeah.
They're giving you theinformation.
But what I as I listened tothose, what's missing is the
emotional resonance andconnection. It's like, if I'm
gonna listen to Kara Swisher andScott Galloway talk. Yep. Now,
(11:56):
that could be just an LLMtalking back and forth. But the
reason I'm listening to them isbecause there's an emotional
connection with them.
Maybe I find Scott abrasive, andmaybe I find Kara endearing.
Maybe I followed Kara ever sinceshe was at the Washington Post.
There's these other emotionallyresonant dynamics to that
(12:18):
listener podcast relationship.And the other thing I think of
is I've just recently startedlistening to some of Scott
Galloway's stuff. And he has oneshow where he has a professional
narrator read out kind of anessay.
Jeremy (12:32):
Mhmm.
Justin (12:33):
It's just kinda like dull. Where's the emotional
connection? So being a pureproblem solver, even though it
kind of makes sense practically,like, it's like, oh, I'm just
gonna solve people's problems,and I'm gonna give them the
information in a professionalnarrated voice. You know, like,
you could do all that, and Ithink you're gonna miss what
(12:57):
makes podcasting so great.
Jeremy (12:59):
And, you know, we can maybe get into a conversation
about the job that people hirepodcasting to do in general, and
we've actually touched on thisin a previous episode this
season. But let's get to some ofthe data here because I was so
curious about this, and I haveseen data related to book sales,
related to the job to be done ofthe book. They didn't actually
use the terminology job to bedone, but it was basically the
(13:19):
same thing. And I was curious ifthat carried over into into
podcasting. And what we see hereis that 48% of the shows,
overall who submitted their datawere I classified as problem
solvers.
And so they had clearly in thedescription something saying,
basically, we'll help you dothis. Listen to the show to
learn this or to become betterat this. So 48%, just under
(13:41):
half. There was then 32% of theshows I classified as pleasure
givers. 7% were think pieces,which kinda makes sense because
that's a more, like,journalistic, often narrative
show that is a little bit lessaccessible to most creators, a
little bit harder to make, Ithink, a lot of times.
Mhmm. And then there was 13% ofshows were generally unclear.
(14:03):
Clearly, like, problem solverwas, by some margin, the
biggest. Although if you countcluster together both Pleasure
Giver and Think Piece, which iskind of a subset, that's 39%. So
it's not that big a difference,and then 13% unclear.
So that's the overallbenchmarks. And then it got a
little bit more interesting whenI broke those down both by the
growth rate of the shows andthen the overall downloads of
(14:25):
the shows. With the high growthrate shows and so these were
shows that doubled theirdownloads over the course of a
year. So something, you know,anybody would like to achieve.
High growth shows were 10% morelikely to be problem solvers
than average.
And so 58% of high growth shows,were classified as problem
solvers versus 48 for theaverage. So, you know, we look
(14:47):
at that and we see that it seemsto suggest that, okay, if you
wanna grow faster, then youshould have a problem solver
show whether you want to or not.But I think there's actually
another even maybe more tellingstatistic here, which is the
shows that underperformed theaverage were three times as
likely to have an nonspecificunclear job to be done. And so
there were shows that you readthe description, and you're just
(15:09):
kind of like, I don't know whatthis show is telling me it's
going to do for me in any way.Is it going to entertain me?
Is it going to help me learnsomething? And so those were
were 17% of underperformingshows were unclear versus only
5% of shows that outperformed,the average growth rate. So,
curious on your, like,reflections, thoughts on that in
terms of, like, how showsposition themselves.
Justin (15:30):
Yeah. I mean, I think the big takeaway here is asking,
what is this show for? Is a goodquestion. And I think layered on
top is, how do I want this showto make people feel? Like,
what's what feelings am I tryingto invoke?
Because what is this show for?You can kind of bullshit that.
(15:53):
You can kind of say, well, thisshow is to help people
accelerate their career growth.That's what it's What makes Jobs
To Be Done different is you'reactually looking at the real
reasons that people choose ashow. These are reasons that
people might not articulateright away.
You have to listen between thelines as to why they're choosing
(16:16):
the show. And there's oftenmultiple jobs being done, and
they're almost always emotionalat the same So, what is this
show for? Sure. That'simportant. But then, what do I
want people to feel?
Yeah. And what feelings aregoing to help us to draw people
in episode after episode? Sosometimes people can go very
(16:40):
pragmatic with jobs to be done.Again, this show is to help
people accelerate their careergrowth. That's part of it.
But really, a lot of this islike, no, the emotions connected
to career growth. What do peopleneed? They need encouragement.
They need comfort. They needsomebody that's going to give
them the real, raw humanexistence of what it's like to
(17:06):
look for a job, and how hard itis, and how debilitating it is
to go from interview tointerview.
Like, that's the juice. That'swhat you want. And so, I think
these unclear shows, they canjust be very banal and general,
like you've mentioned. Or theycan have a purpose, this show is
(17:27):
for this, but they haven't hiton that emotionally resonant
piece. And Yeah.
That's really what you wannaget.
Jeremy (17:36):
The other data that I looked at here was the jobs to
be done broken down by downloadnumbers, and so shows, over
10,000 downloads an episode, oneto 10,000 downloads an episode,
and less than 10,000 downloadsan episode. Basically, the the
categories of jobs we've arekinda split very similar to the
overall averages. Except, again,we see that the shows with less
than a thousand downloads wereonce again three times more
(17:58):
likely to have a very unclearkind of sense of what the show
is for. And the the one thingthat I'll add here too is that
this is based on thedescriptions of the shows, which
oftentimes have not been updatedin years. And so it's totally
possible that many of theseshows actually do have clear
jobs to be done that a listenercould articulate, having
listened to show or that thehost could articulate, but it
(18:18):
hasn't been updated in thepackaging, which I think is
still, you know, something thatwe need to be thinking about.
I agree a % with you on theemotional nature of listening to
podcasts and and that being thecore reason I reach for any show
at any given time. It's becauseI want to feel a certain way
typically. Mhmm. But I will saythat there are almost these two
(18:39):
stages of jobs to be done whereoftentimes people will seek out
a show because they want aproblem solved. And so Mhmm.
I have certainly signed up forshows in the past and subscribed
to them because I'm looking tolearn how to do this thing
better. And the thing that wemight get into here in a second
is that oftentimes, I might testout five different shows on that
topic. And so I am looking tohave a problem solved, but then
(19:02):
one show sticks with me becauseit has that emotional kind of
undercurrent to it that pulls mein. Mhmm. And so and the other
ones don't have that or, youknow, it's just not aligned with
me.
And so I think the problem withmessaging the emotional jobs to
be done in your description andin your marketing is that it
often like, it's be it's kind ofbland and generic and universal.
Like, we all kind of want a lotof the same emotional things.
(19:25):
And so it's like you want tomessage more of some of the
actionable kind of jobs to bedone in the description and the
outward facing packaging that afirst time person is coming
across this, you can't tellthem, like, this show is gonna
make you feel seen and warm and,like, like, you're part of a
community because you gottaexperience it to feel that. And
a lot of shows have messagingthat's somewhat aligned with
(19:45):
that. And it's like, yeah.
Right. You and everybody else.But once you listen, you're
like, oh, it actually does dothat. And so Yeah. There has to
be something believable, apromise that is maybe more
functional in the description,and then there is the emotional
job to be unsatisfied on theinside.
Justin (19:59):
Yeah. This is actually one of the reasons it's sad that
not every podcast app haswritten reviews, because often,
the written review is what ishelping people decide. When they
read the slogan or thedescription or the title, it's
like, okay, that's what's on thetin. But then they read the
(20:21):
reviews, and they're like, oh,this is how this show makes
people feel. You know?
So Yeah. Those can often work intandem. People should actually
be highlighting their bestreview in their descriptions
more often. I think you couldtake a one line, in quotation
marks thing. If someone hasarticulated what the show is,
and why it's resonant betterthan you ever could, just put
(20:41):
that in quotation marks at thebeginning, or the middle, or the
end of your description.
You can communicate some ofthese elements through your show
art, through your title, throughyour description. But often,
what where jobs to be donereally comes in, is what are all
the emotional triggers that ledsomeone to choosing your show in
(21:03):
the first place? And then, whatare all the emotional reasons
that they keep coming back? Butthat actual decision point, if
they're basing it ondescription, title, cover art,
that's a little bit different.Right?
You're gonna have to use otherlevers to draw them in.
Jeremy (21:20):
Okay. So we're gonna talk about how the specific
category of job that your showdoes is going to influence, the
way that you market your show ina minute. But first, let's dig a
little bit further into theactual, like, core ideas behind
jobs to be done. One of the mainideas behind jobs to be done is
this idea of unmet needs, And wecan use the word needs kind of
(21:41):
interchangeably with desires.And so people have some kind of
need or desire to feel a certainway.
And those, as you've kindamentioned, they can be
functional, but more often,there's a heavy emotional
component as well. And so, we'vealready listed a few, but, like,
what are some of the maybe,like, functional and or
emotional needs that you canthink of that a podcast might
solve?
Justin (22:00):
Probably the main functional job of a podcast is
entertain me while I drive towork. I just need something to
occupy my brain while I'm doingthat commute. And there's an
emotional component to that aswell. But the deeper emotional
job there might be, sure,entertain me during my commute.
(22:22):
But also, help me, like, inspireme on, like, ways I could live
my life better.
Or, show me how I might thinkabout my relationships at work
differently than I am right now.
Jeremy (22:35):
Yeah.
Justin (22:36):
Yeah. So often, there's like this broader functional
purpose, but then there's thisemotional component that's
deeper down that you gotta find.
Jeremy (22:45):
I think it's interesting as an exercise. I know I listen
to multiple shows on, you know,the same broad topic overall.
And so over the past year, I'velistened to probably five
different shows on some varietyof writing. I reach for
different shows at differenttimes because some of them are
much more expansive. And it'slike, it's not so tactical and
(23:05):
in the weeds.
Like, that's not the emotionalexperiencing, that I'm wanting
right then. And so it's like,just wanna be stewing in general
writing conversations that are alittle bit higher level. And,
and so I think that anybody wholistens to multiple shows on the
same topic can probably start topick apart, like, why do I
listen to one show over anotherat different times? And maybe
you notice that there are timesof day where it's, like, it's
going to the office versus fromthe office where you reach for
(23:28):
one or the other. And I thinkthat for me, thinking about the
way that you make decisions andjust observing that in yourself
is one of the best things thatyou can do to improve your
ability as a marketer.
Because now you understand,like, oh, if I make decisions
like this, other people makedecisions like this too. And the
better I understand, like, howmy brain works and how
different, shows slot into myday and the way that I make
(23:49):
decisions around, you know, whatI reach for, then I'm gonna be
able to position my show, tobetter appeal to the people who
are probably looking forsomething like that.
Justin (23:57):
Mhmm. And I actually have a good example now that I
think will help us clarify someof these thoughts. So I have
someone in my family who hasdyslexia. So I started seeking
out resources around dyslexia,found this podcast called Sold a
Story. I had this functionalthing.
Like, I'm trying to figure out,you know, responses to dyslexia,
(24:19):
all these sorts of things. Butwhat kept me engaged in the show
was how the show made me feel.Like, wow, it's uncovering this
deep problem with our educationsystem. It's helping me feel
seen and heard. It's helping theperson in my family who has
dyslexia.
It's helping them to be heard aswell, and helping me understand
(24:42):
their emotions. That was theresonant emotional job that it
was doing for me. So there'sthis high level functional need.
Yes, I'm trying to getinformation on this. I'm trying
to figure out an approach, aresponse.
But what kept me coming back washow it made me feel. And I think
as we move into this next thing,we can talk about the series of
(25:05):
events that happens in adecision. I think you'll really
see that at play in thatexample.
Jeremy (25:11):
You know, that makes me think that, you know, your
functional need here was tounderstand dyslexia better. And
so it's possible that there is ashow that is hyperacademic PhDs
on dyslexia, and it's like, thatfulfills that functional job
you're seeking out, but it doesnothing for that emotional need.
It should do the job, but it'snot actually doing it in the way
that is you're appealing to you.
Justin (25:30):
That's right.
Jeremy (25:31):
And so I think that that there's there's the second kind
of piece of jobs to be done thatis interesting, which comes down
to how we compare differentoptions. And so I think one of
the things that we're allfamiliar with is we have some
need for something in our life.We feel some lack or we're we
have a desire, and so we startlooking for options. It's not
just like, I have this need, andthat's the thing for me. In
(25:52):
general, we say, okay.
I wanna learn podcast marketing,and I'm gonna see if there's any
podcasts on that. And so youmight search podcast marketing,
podcast growth into Spotify orYouTube or wherever, And maybe
our show comes up, and maybethere are five to 10 other shows
that come up. And so,essentially, in jobs to be done,
there's this trigger event isthe thing that people will talk
(26:12):
about kicks it all off. So a lotof times, you'll have some
realization or maybe somethingchanges in your life that now
sets you off looking for, youknow, a solution to that
problem. Mhmm.
And so after the trigger event,there is a initial consideration
set. And so this is when yousearch in Spotify, and you're
like, hey. There's 10 shows onpodcast marketing. Any one of
these could potentially help megrow my show. Which one am I
(26:33):
gonna subscribe to?
And so that next phase is calledthe active evaluation phase. And
so this might be where youactually click into a bunch of
them. You read the descriptions.You look at the episode titles.
Maybe you listen to the teasers.
And, eventually, you come to asolution and you say, okay. I'm
gonna try this one. And so thishere is the decision point. And
if it's a paid product, thiswould be the purchase. If it's a
(26:55):
podcast, it's maybe you clickplay on a show and you commit to
listening through it.
And so here, a lot of us think,great. The job's done. We've,
like, won a new listener over,but this is actually only
halfway through the process. Andso after you've clicked play on
an episode or you've made thedecision to engage with whatever
the the content is or theproduct is, then we get into the
post decision evaluation. And sonow you've made the purchase,
(27:18):
you've spent the time on theshow, and you're thinking, is
this going to actually solve thejob that I need done?
And if you feel confident thatit is, then probably you're just
gonna stick with that thing. Butas in many situations we've all
experienced, you've, you know,bought a course that didn't help
you do whatever the coursepromised it was gonna do, or you
listen to a podcast that didn'tsatisfy the emotional need that
you had. Now you actually goback to the start of the cycle,
(27:40):
and you go back to that initialconsideration set, you say,
maybe one of these other showswill do a better job of that for
me. And so you keep goingthrough that cycle until you end
on something that actuallyfulfills the job. So this is the
kind of overall cycle that weall are going through in, you
know, dozens of different areasof our lives every single day.
Justin (27:57):
Yeah. We need to pay a lot of attention to the
triggering event, because thatreally informs how we can draw
listeners in in these subsequentsteps. So, I think there's kind
of two types of this. There's Inmy case with dyslexia, this
family member has beenstruggling with it for a long
(28:17):
time, so there's this slow burnof just talking to this person,
and hearing their frustration,and just that's always going on
in the background. But then thetriggering event, in this case,
if I'm remembering it correctly,was seeing a post on social
media from the reporter who wasinvolved in the podcast.
(28:37):
And it was just enough to like,Oh, wow. That's interesting. And
then followed the rabbit holedown to, Okay. Well, in my
initial consideration set, itwas just like, here's this
podcast, and am I going to trythis out? Active evaluation,
clicked play, and thenimmediately, they set up the
(28:59):
emotionally resonant part rightaway, which is schools in North
America have been not payingattention to the real research
behind how kids learn to read,and we're going to uncover the
truth.
I'm in. Yeah. It's emotionallyresonant, and then, you know, I
made that decision to listen tothe episode because they they
(29:21):
hooked me, and then I just keeplistening more and more and
more. So the whole thing abouttrigger event is there's things
going on in people's lives, andsometimes you just need to break
through the noise and say, hey,if this is going on in your
life, like if you've ever feltthis way, or if you're thinking
about this, or you're stressedabout this, or you want to
(29:42):
achieve this, here's a show foryou. Another type of triggering
event, which is like, The UnitedStates is applying some tariffs
on Canada and Mexico.
Immediately, you are seeking outinformation on how is this going
to affect me. So this is like anews story. And so in that case,
you might, you know, search fora bunch of shows, and then
(30:04):
you're picking something. Andmaybe, you know, in that case,
the triggering event wassomebody recommended the show to
you. So you're talking aroundthe water cooler about tariffs,
and they say, you know what?
This show really helped meunderstand the whole backdrop to
this. It's like, oh, okay. I'llI'll check that out. So
understanding the backdrop inpeople's lives and, you know,
(30:26):
how that forms a foundation forthe decisions they're gonna
make, and then understandingthese triggering events are
really important for marketing.
Jeremy (30:34):
And I think there's a few other ways that trigger
events can be used in marketing.I think, you know, for some
shows, the when you talked aboutdyslexia, I've come across
several, shows related to ADHD.And especially because we're
currently in a wave of awarenessaround adult diagnosed ADHD. And
so I've seen a lot of shows.I've done some audits for
(30:55):
clients where basically themessaging or the description of
the show meets people wherethey're at based on the trigger
event.
And so it's like, have you beendiagnosed as an adult with ADHD?
And so the show knows that youhave probably recently found out
that you have ADHD, and nowyou're looking for resources on
that. And so the show haspositioned itself perfectly to
meet you where you're at, whichis a different show than
(31:16):
somebody who was diagnosed as achild and has always known this.
That's probably two totallydifferent shows, but the one is
appealing to its audience basedon that trigger event right
there and is is meeting themthere. And, like, some shows
have very easily understandableand and noticeable trigger
events.
And so any, like, new parentingshow. Like, you just had a baby.
(31:36):
There's a massive trigger eventthat your life has changed
forever, and you need to learn awhole bunch of new stuff. And
you probably also need someemotional support as well. Mhmm.
And so some shows can, you know,speak to that much more acutely.
A show like ours is a little bitdifferent. I've wondered in my
business for a long time, I'vetried to figure out what are the
trigger events that set somebodyoff looking for services like
(31:58):
mine. And I have some guesses atthings that could be in the mix
there. And so I think a lot oftimes, you know, I work with
people who have been producingtheir shows for a while already.
And so it's not like theydecided to start a podcast, now
they're looking for a podcasthost, which would be, you know,
one of Transistor's triggerevents. It's like, hey. I'm
starting a podcast. Now I needto go find out all the stuff I
need to do. I need to buy themic.
I need to get podcast hosting.Whatever.
Justin (32:21):
Yeah.
Jeremy (32:21):
For me, I've often thought it's probably something
like I have a milestone episodewhere maybe I reached episode
200, and my downloads are stillat, like, 200 downloads an
episode. And I'm like, you'reyou're reevaluating this. Like,
okay. You reached a milestone.Things aren't where they are.
And so it's now it's like, okay.I gotta really do something
different. It could also be kindof like I've been doing the show
for a year, and things aren't asgood as I hope. And so that's
(32:42):
kind of a little bit where Ithink about my services, and I
think a show like this is morepositioned for people who it's
like, okay. I've been doing thisa while.
There's not maybe a distincttrigger. It's maybe more there's
a nagging feeling, and thenthere's a trigger maybe where
somebody else, like, mentionsthe show and they're like, it
clicks with them, and they'relike, oh, maybe I need to take
that approach to my show andlearn more about the data
marketing side of things. And soit's can be difficult to
(33:05):
understand that trigger, but Ithink it's worth trying to think
through it.
Justin (33:08):
Yeah. And in that case, you could use some of that
terminology in your pitch. Doyou have a nagging feeling that
your show is underperforming,that it could be doing a lot
higher downloads, that the showis better than your audience
size. Well, I help people likeyou all the time, and this is a
(33:31):
show, or this is a service thathelps. So, I think tapping into
I've used this example before,but I think a lot of stand up
comedy is just articulatingthings that people are feeling
that they've never heardarticulated before.
And I think a lot of goodmarketing does that as well. It
articulates these naggingfeelings, And then when we see
(33:53):
it as a slogan or a headline, wego, oh, thank you. This reminds
me of there's that podcastcalled Bad With Money. You know?
It just, like, perfectlyencapsulates this thing.
Like, I just feel like I'm badwith money. I'm terrible at it.
And then a show comes outthat's, like, bad with money.
It's, like, perfectly addressesthis nagging feeling that you
(34:15):
have.
Jeremy (34:16):
That's a great example because somebody who self
identifies as bad with money,they probably have a bunch of
scenarios that happen every day,maybe every week, however often,
where they tell themselves, I'mjust so bad with money. I missed
the bill payment or, you know,whatever happened. There's all
these little trigger events, andthen they see a show that speaks
(34:37):
to them saying bad with money,and they're like, oh, that thing
was made for me.
Justin (34:40):
Mhmm. And there could also be these triggering events
can be, like, incrediblydramatic. These moments where
it's like, that's it. I'm done.I'm going to solve this problem
today.
And I think someone like DaveRamsey really benefits from So,
you have credit card debt, andyou've just seen your debt go up
and up and up, and then maybeyou just had a number in your
(35:02):
head like, it can't go pastthis. And then it hits like 50
ks, and you're like, oh my God,that's it. I'm making a
decision. I'm gonna go find DaveRamsey. He is the guy that helps
people like me.
I'm gonna solve this problem. Ithink understanding that can
also be powerful too, these kindof oh shit moments that overcome
(35:24):
all of the friction somebodymight have had before.
Jeremy (35:28):
Yeah. So there's one more trigger event that I think
is specifically relevant to moreof these pleasure giver,
specifically entertainment styleshows. We're gonna save that
because we're gonna get to, howdo we market based on the type
of show that we have. But first,I wanna talk a little bit about
how listeners interactdifferently at some of the
(35:49):
dynamics that are at play withthese different types of shows.
And I think the the first thingthat really comes to mind for me
with problem solver shows, oneof the things they benefit from
is there's often this additionalsense of urgency that works for
you as a creator.
Yeah. And so people are alreadyseeking out something, and they
are going to pick a solution.And so it might not be your
show, but they are they havemade the decision. They're like,
(36:10):
okay. I need to solve thisproblem.
I'm going to look for a podcastthat promises to do that for me,
and then I'm gonna pick one, andI'm gonna listen to it. And
maybe I'm gonna sample a few,but I am going to find a podcast
to help me do this thing whenmaybe I'm also gonna be
subscribing to YouTube channelsand reading books. But, like, I
am in search of solutions, andso, you know, they're in a an
attention spending mode on thattopic. And so I think that's one
(36:31):
of the reasons that problemsolver shows or shows that
position itself that way.They're a little bit sharper in
terms of their ability to marketthemselves, I think.
And I think there's alsogenerally not so much
competition in that categorywhere, like, promising to do any
kind of one job, if it's reallybroad, like, help you get in
shape, okay, there's a lot ofshows there. But you can look at
(36:53):
very niche jobs that need to bedone, and there might be five to
10 shows. And so the competitionis much smaller versus, like,
entertain me Mhmm. Which islike, okay, infinite content out
there in the world. And so Yeah.
I think that's something that'sworth keeping in mind with those
problem solver shows that theydo have an advantage there.
Anything else that comes to mindin terms of, like, the dynamics
at play with problem solversversus pleasure givers?
Justin (37:16):
I just think it's very clear in this context why people
might choose a podcast overother mediums. So this is where
jobs to be done really when welook at just different mediums
really comes into play. So I'vegot a problem to solve, and I
could choose a YouTube video, abook, or a podcast. And Mhmm.
(37:38):
Problem is I don't have enoughtime in my day.
So, I'm trying to figure out howam I going to cover this
additional material, but I don'thave any more time in my day.
The only thing I have is a onehour commute every day. Well,
can't use YouTube, becausethat's visual. Can't use a book,
because that's also visual,unless they go audiobook. But
podcasts, this just fits into mylife.
(38:00):
I can listen to podcasts, andsolve this problem while I'm
driving. People marketing theirpodcasts can bring this into
their marketing more often thanthey do. Like, we know you could
go and do a bunch of research insome books. But that's gonna
take you hours. We'vesynthesized it all.
(38:22):
You don't have time to read thetrade publications every day.
But you do have thirty minuteswhile you're walking to work
every day. Why don't you let usread out the trade publications
to you? And that can become partof your pitch. So understanding
where your listeners orpotential listeners might be
getting other information, likewhat else is competing for their
(38:43):
attention, and go, well, hey.
Here's why this format isbetter.
Jeremy (38:48):
Another thing that comes to mind for me in terms of the
category of job here,specifically with problem
solvers, there's some benefitshere that, you know, that's a
little bit sharper in terms oftheir messaging sometimes. But I
think there's a downside thatactually problem solvers
probably should expect higherchurn. And, like, every show's
gonna have churn, but I thinkit's almost like the better the
(39:09):
show is at solving the problem,the faster it's gonna lose
listeners. And so it's kind ofthis catch 22 a little bit where
it's like, yeah, if you arepromising to deliver on a job
for listeners, you actually wantto help them do that thing, but
then you have to actually expectthat you're gonna lose all those
listeners or or a significantpercentage of them. So I think
that's another dynamic here.
You know, you could also arguethat a lot of those shows that
(39:30):
are problem solvers areconnected to businesses, which
may have another method ofsolving the problem, which,
again, can lead to churn becausepeople sign up for the product
or service, which is actuallywhat you want, but then they
stop listening to the podcastbecause they're now getting it
in higher resolution elsewhere.So I think that's another kind
of interesting side effect here.
Justin (39:46):
Yeah. That's the nature of all of this. It's like,
whether in business or inpodcasting or in television or
whatever, it's like peoplefinish Breaking Bad, and it's
like, what's our options here?Well, we've optimized for people
to rewatch it. We've alsocreated a new show called Better
Call Saul that people can go tonext.
So you have options there, butit's something to think about
(40:10):
strategically. Like, okay, isthis the kind of show people
could listen to over and overagain? There's some series I've
listened to Yep. Over and overagain. Is this the kind of show
we can once they're done thispiece, we give them the next
step in another series?
So there's this nice funnel intothe next thing. So, yeah, you
can think strategically aboutthis.
Jeremy (40:30):
The last thing that, comes to mind for this in terms
of the differences in engagementbetween the two kind of major
categories is I think the barfor quality is actually much
lower on problem solvers. If youare purely promising that the
show is designed to solve aproblem, as long as you can
solve the problem effectively,your production does not need to
be amazing. And probably there'sa whole bunch of other
(40:52):
attributes that you can not beso great at as long as you're
getting people results becausethat's what you're promising and
that's what they're coming for.Whereas I think with pleasure
giver shows, you get into moreentertainment. Now you're in
this pool of the bestentertainment in the world,
which is how do you compete withthat?
And I think that's where we getinto there are still niching is
still a thing. There are stillgenres that you can position
(41:13):
your show within so that you'renot just competing with anyone
and everything.
Justin (41:17):
I think this is one of the big problems that people
make when they'reconceptualizing a show. It's
like, so who are you competingwith here? You're competing with
Mel Robbins? You're competingwith
Jeremy (41:29):
Mhmm.
Justin (41:29):
Joe Rogan? Okay. That's gonna be hard. They can do the
three guys talking on the couchway better than you can.
Jeremy (41:37):
Now I'm glad you brought up, Mel Robbins and Joe Rogan
because that actuallytransitions into our our kinda
last segment here of how do youthink about marketing the
different types of shows. And,you know, one of the common
complaints that you hear frompodcasters, which is, I think,
warranted, is that mostmarketing advice tends to be
geared towards more educationalstyle shows, which this
functional kind of job to bedone. And it's usually because,
(42:00):
like, that's just it's so clear.Like, people are looking for a
problem that they have to besolved, and so you can position
your show that way. And it'sit's it is a lot easier to
market that.
There's actually a couple fewersteps in the process.
Justin (42:11):
Mhmm. It's not
Jeremy (42:11):
to say that you can't market a show that is more of a
pleasure giver, and we're gonnatalk about that here. But, you
know, as I've been thinkingabout, you know, these different
types of shows, there's actuallyyou realize some advantages that
pleasure giver shows have thatproblem solvers don't have, and
there's also some disadvantages.So I figured we'd start out with
with some of these advantagesand opportunities of each type
(42:33):
of show. And so I think one ofthe the first big opportunities
for Pleasure Givers is thatwhile the competition is higher,
there's actually a much biggerpotential audience. And so I
actually, went through thismorning in today's Apple Podcast
top 50 shows, and I categorizedthese based on our kinda two
broad categories here.
(42:54):
There's a bunch of think piecesin here that I just left in the
Pleasure Giver. But, basically,of the top 50 shows, there are
five that I would classify asproblem solvers. Mhmm. And Mel
Robbins is one of those. And ifyou read the first sentence of
her description, it's basicallylike, this show will help you
live a better life.
It's something like that. And soit's promising that it's gonna
make your life better. Yeah. Theother shows here, we've got,
(43:16):
Huberman Lab, Diary of a CEO, OnPurpose with Jay Shetty, and the
Ultimate Human, is the otherone. And so those are kind of
the five that I classified asproblem solvers.
And then everything else isbasically a pleasure giver. And
so you think most media thatexists is designed to be a
pleasurable experience in someway. And so there is a unmatched
(43:38):
audience, on that side ofthings. And so I think that that
is certainly a benefit thatwhile the competition is higher,
so is the growth potential inmost cases.
Justin (43:46):
Yeah. Just remember, you gotta really consider what arena
you're walking into. The betterapproach for most folks is to
say, well, I'm solving aproblem, but I'm also going to
make this entertaining. So I'mgonna merge these two together.
That's where most of us canplay.
Right? Like, the truth is isthat a lot of these problem
solving shows are boring. So howare you going to make it more
(44:09):
engaging? How are you going toup the quality bar? Because
given the choice between twoshows, it could be that people
prefer something that's betterquality, better produced,
funnier, better edited.
So, there's a way of competingthere by, getting those
serotonin and dopamine levelsup.
Jeremy (44:30):
A couple other things that come to mind as actually
benefits or opportunities forpleasure giver shows that do not
exist for problem solvers isthat, for one, they don't feel
like work. And so, you know, wegot this feedback on our show
when we did our listener surveyin last season that some people
said, like, yeah. You know, Iwanna listen, but it just feels
like work to me. And so, like,that's a kind of headwind
(44:52):
against us in marketing thisshow that there's people who are
in our target audience who just,like, they think about this
stuff enough during the day, andthey're like, yeah. I can't be
bothered to do that in my walkhome from work time now.
And so, you know, that'ssomething that can work against
problem solving shows. But Ithink the other big one, and
this gets back to that commentthat I made around an additional
trigger that is reallyinteresting for pleasure givers,
(45:14):
specifically with limitedseries, is that people who
listeners who listen to a lot oflimited series show, and so I
think about, like, true crime oranything like that, you finish
one series, and now you'reimmediately that's the trigger
to seek out the next thing. Andso my wife, Kelly, is very much
this type of listener who haslistened through every show in a
broad kind of genre. And soshe's always like, I can't find
(45:35):
any good new shows. Like, she'slistened through all of them
because she listens constantly.
And so with problem solvers,people are often seeking out
content, but so are people wholisten to pleasure giving shows
a lot of times
Justin (45:46):
Yeah.
Jeremy (45:46):
Where they, like, finish the show, and then it's like,
okay. What's up next? What's upnext? And so that's actually
something that you can plug intowith pleasure giving shows. And
I think because there are moreshows, I would say, in general
out in public, it wasn't reallyin the survey, but I think my
audience is a bit skewed more tothe problem solver side.
But I think in general, there'smore shows I would categorize as
pleasure giving. And so I thinkthere's almost infinite cross
(46:08):
promotional opportunities toplug in so that when that
trigger event ends, peoplefinish listening to one show.
It's like, hey. Here's, like,the next show for you, and you
can kinda set up theserecommendation networks.
Justin (46:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's well said. And, sure,
there's a lot of shows like thisin the top 100, but in they
have, you know, their own nichesas well. Like, there are people
that like documentary styleserial shows that aren't true
crime.
And so Mhmm. If you're one ofthose people making those shows,
(46:38):
then you have an advantagebecause, people are actively
seeking those out. You can seeit in Reddit threads like, hey,
I just finished the series. Whatwould you recommend next? Yep.
And there's this nice momentumthere. So these are the kinds of
things you wanna seek out,especially observing what people
are saying. Like, what are theysaying on social media or on
(47:01):
LinkedIn or on Reddit,especially. Like, I just
finished the show. I loved it.
What should I listen to next?That is gold in terms of
conceptualizing a show and go,oh, I'm gonna make a show for
these people because they arehungry.
Jeremy (47:17):
Now on the the problem solver side, a couple we've
talked about some of theadvantages there. They often
have, like, very focusedmessaging that aligns with what
people are looking for. We alsotalked about how the bar for
quality can be lower in somecases. I think the big advantage
with problem solvers is thatit's and this is the big
disadvantage with pleasuregivers is that with problem
solvers, you can before you evereven start the show, you can
(47:38):
research all the problemsalready and design the show to
fit into their world. Where withmore of a entertainment or
pleasure giver style show, youoften cannot.
And a lot of times, you actuallyneed to start by making the
show, go out and market to abunch of different communities,
and try and find out where do Ifind traction. And then you
start to research those people,and now you're basically at the
(47:58):
starting line of where theproblem solvers were already.
Now you have these people, andyou can actually do these kind
of listener interviews, and youcan be like, oh, this is why
people like this show. This iswhat keeps them coming back.
These are the jobs that they'relooking to have solved.
And so then you can kind ofadjust your show to be more in
line with that. And so that, Ithink, is the the missing step
that causes a lot of frustrationfor more of the pleasure giving
(48:20):
style show where you have to,like, design your show to do
solve a problem that peoplehave, but my show doesn't solve
a problem. And I think that thisframework of jobs to be done
actually starts to give you thelanguage for, like, oh, okay.
It's not a problem in the way Ithought about it, but there is a
need or desire that people havethat they are choosing this show
for. And I just need to, like,try and find some traction, do
anything I can to get my firsthundred listeners per episode,
(48:43):
and then start doing everythingI can to get in touch with those
people and try to understand,like, what are the commonalities
that got people to seek out theshow, where did they come across
it, and what keeps them comingback.
Yeah. So, yeah, I think in termsof marketing the shows, I think,
you know, in both cases, we needto have this understanding of
why are people coming to theshow in the first place, both
why are they seeking it out andwhat's keeping them coming back.
(49:04):
And so I know you mentioned, andyou're a big fan of reading
reviews, and pulling informationfrom there. You can find a lot
of that there. Mhmm.
I also like another tactic oflooking at competitors' reviews
and seeing what is drawingpeople to those shows and also
Amazon book reviews. And so ifthere are books on your topic,
you can kinda mine those reviewsand find out, like, oh, why are
people seeking out content ingeneral like this? Because,
(49:25):
again, like, with the idea ofjobs to be done, people might be
choosing a podcast to solve ajob, but they might also be
choosing a book or a YouTubechannel. And so there's actually
a lot of information out therethat it might not be why they're
choosing your show, but it iswhat is getting them to seek out
a piece of content on the topic.And so I think those are are
some of the ways that you canget these insights.
Anything else come to mind foryou?
Justin (49:47):
I just think this framework of thinking about
people hiring your show to do ajob in their life is just so
helpful. In the same way thatyou would hire a landscaper.
It's not just like you just wantthe grass cut, because the grass
could be cut poorly. You'rehiring it to do this job, which
is, I want my lawn to lookamazing for the neighbors.
(50:10):
Right?
Like, that's what you'reseeking. And people hire all
sorts of things in their livesevery day to do jobs in their
lives, and your podcast is oneof those things. And you just
need to think about how am Igonna get people to hire this
show, this episode, and why arethey hiring this? Like, if you
(50:31):
start to get people who arehiring it, you get listeners,
what are they getting out ofthis? What are they hiring this
show for?
What job is it doing in theirlives? This is just a very
helpful framework for thinkingthrough how your particular
audience, what might bemotivating them to choose a
podcast like yours in the firstplace.
Jeremy (50:54):
Yeah. And I think the other thing, you know, when it
comes to understanding thetrigger events and the jobs
people are hiring your show todo, a lot of times, and again,
not always, It can often tellyou where to go to position
yourself or what partnerships tomake. People who are looking for
a podcast host are probably alsobuying microphones and gear.
Maybe they're signing up for atool like Squadcast or
Riverside. And so it's great fora podcast host to say, hey.
(51:16):
Let's make a partnership withone of these other things that
people are already searching forwhen they're in the process of
starting a podcast. And so wecan both promote each other so
that if somebody findsTransistor, they're also gonna
find Shure microphones at thesame time. We're gonna recommend
them because we like theirmicrophones, And maybe they're
gonna recommend us as theirpreferred podcast host because
people are in the same processat the same time. And so when
(51:37):
you understand that kind of ajob that people are looking to
have done, what other servicesor content is showing up in the
same place, you can actuallyposition yourself, make
partnerships, do collaborationswith people operating in the
same space.
Justin (51:50):
Exactly.
Jeremy (51:51):
As we kinda round things out here, let's just go down
some, rapid fire list of some ofthe shows that we listen to and
share some of the jobs that theydo for us. Do you have any,
shows that come to mind thathave specific jobs you hire them
to do?
Justin (52:03):
So I have three here. Making Sense, and the job it's
doing is give me a reassuringvoice in times of turmoil. So,
scary event happens in theworld. I go to Sam Harris to
just give me this calm, reasonedpoint of view, walk me through
it, and I just find that verycomforting. Professor G Markets,
(52:27):
help me understand what'shappening in the markets so that
I can respond as an investor andbusiness owner.
Great. Dear John Letters, be myolder Gen X brother who can give
me advice and keep me company asI walk home.
Jeremy (52:42):
Alright. Yeah. I got, a few here myself. And so, there's
a couple there's actually two,On Being and Poetry Unbound,
which are actually both underthe On Being umbrella. But these
it was interesting.
They're two totally differentshows, but I use them in the
same way, which is kind of justto adopt a more expansive view.
So if I feel like I'm reallymaybe tense and I just, like, I
wanna think bigger abouthumanity and what it means to be
(53:05):
a human and just kind of, like,get out of my own head, those
are two shows that I go toregularly to kinda put myself in
that mode. Interesting one,Money for Couples, Ramit Sethi.
I've mentioned him a number oftimes. This is interesting that
the job has shifted over time.
And so when I first startedlistening to the show, it was
much more of a problem solver,tactical, I wanna learn more
about finances as a couple,specifically as I was engaged
(53:28):
and getting ready to be married.And now I listen to it almost as
a way to just keep my mind onmoney and thinking about, like,
making smart decisions. And soMhmm. I don't necessarily want
to drift into laziness. And so Ilisten regularly, not to
specifically learn anything.
I just wanna keep it top ofmind. And I actually noticed
myself doing this with a wholebunch of content where it's
like, I just wanna stew insomething because I wanna be
(53:51):
thinking about this. I've readseveral books on business
operations recently. And,really, I was like, I already
got everything I needed from onebook, but I read three more
because I was like, I justreally wanna soak in this for a
time period. It wasn't like Iwanna read this many books.
It was like, I wanna be thinkingabout this for several weeks at
a time so that my mind canreally stew in it and hear the
same thing from multipledifferent angles. And so I read
(54:11):
multiple books on it, and I was,like, aware that that was kind
of a weird decision. But, also,I know, if I just read the one
book, I'm gonna, you know, moveon from it pretty quickly. So
I'm gonna read some more. Thelast one, this is really
interesting, LaBar Burton Reads.
Mhmm. I love that the podcasthas now sadly ended, but I reach
for the show every timespecifically when I am, like,
(54:31):
having trouble falling asleep. Iwill use LaVar Burton Reads as
a, like, bedtime podcast, but Iwill always listen to very
specific episodes that I'velistened to so many times,
always when I've had troublesleeping in the past. And so I
already know the plot. I'm not,like, awake trying to figure it
out, and they're justcomforting, and they help put me
to sleep.
So Mhmm. Some of the shows thatI reach for to do certain jobs
(54:51):
for me.
Justin (54:52):
I think if you look at the Instagram reels that Ramit
Sadie is doing for money forcouples, there's this other
interesting job to be done,which is help me to see that
other couples have problems justlike me.
Jeremy (55:07):
Yes.
Justin (55:07):
And I think feeling seen and heard is just an underrated
job to be done that Yeah. Morepeople should be tapping into.
It's especially potent in theaudio form. And too often,
people get on the mics andthey're trying to be this
buttoned up professionalbroadcaster person. And what
(55:34):
they're missing is that thevulnerability that brings
audiences back.
And so to hear, oh, othercouples are struggling too.
That's just like us. You know?And these can often create these
triggering events where, youknow, people might send a clip
to their spouse and go, oh, thisis just like that conversation
(55:57):
we were having the other day.Know?
Looking at the way people aremarketing some of these shows,
and Ramit Sethi is a greatmarketer, go and look at his
TikTok and his, Instagram reelsand YouTube shorts. See which
clips they're choosing, and whatjobs do those kinda invoke.
Jeremy (56:14):
So if, for everybody listening here, we would love if
you left a comment on YouTube orSpotify or dropped us an email
and let us know your favoriteshow and the specific job that
you hire it to do. And, bonuspoints if that show is this
show, and then we would then beeven more curious to know, what
the job, that this show does foryou. Yeah. As always, you can
find the full Podcast MarketingTrends report at
(56:37):
podcastmarketingtrends.com, andwe'll talk to you in the next
episode.
People have jobs that they need done in their life,
and so they hire content to dothose jobs for them.
Justin (00:08):
Your podcast is one of those things, and you just need
to think about how am I gonnaget people to hire this show,
this episode.
Jeremy (00:16):
The thing that people are coming to get is the problem
that they want solved, but thenthey keep coming back because
there's something sticky aboutthe show emotionally.
Justin (00:23):
Being a pure problem solver, even though it kinda
makes sense practically, I thinkyou're gonna miss what makes
podcasting so great.
Jeremy (00:36):
So, Justin, I want you to picture yourself. It's a
random Wednesday morning, andyou're about to walk down from
your house to the office, andyou're gonna listen to a podcast
on the way. Let's just say thatfive shows that you subscribe to
have all released new episodesin the past couple days since
you listened. Walk me throughthe mental thought process. How
do you decide which show you'regonna listen to?
Justin (00:57):
It's different whether I'm walking to the office or
walking home from the office.When usually when I'm walking to
the office, I want something tohelp inspire me for the work I'm
about to do. I wanna get in thatkind of work mindset. I wanna be
thinking about markets or ways Icould improve the business or
(01:22):
maybe having two founders talkabout their journey. And it
serves to get me amped up forthe day, give me ideas, give me
things I want to talk to theteam about.
Jeremy (01:33):
So Okay.
Justin (01:34):
Yeah. Often I'm choosing stuff that's related to work and
business and giving me insightinto all those things.
Jeremy (01:44):
And then, how does that differ from on the walk home?
Justin (01:46):
Walk home, it's like help me, not deflate from the
day, help me calm down from theday, help me prepare myself for
home. Usually, these are moreoften maybe a solo podcast or a
duo that's kind of comforting,maybe more personal, maybe they
(02:07):
talk more about family and home.Sometimes it might be about
current affairs, like maybesomething crazy has happened in
the world, and I just want avoice of reason to help me make
sense of, you know, the thecrazy world we live in. So,
yeah. Usually, it's more calmingwhen I'm on my way home, or it
(02:28):
could be entertaining as well.
Just like, I wanna unravel abit.
Jeremy (02:32):
Okay. So, basically, it sounds to me like you described,
one of our favorite nerdyconcepts, which is jobs to be
done theory, which we havereferenced, a number of times,
not every episode, but almostevery episode of this show,
podcast marketing trendsexplained, and also our other
show, roast my podcast. Mhmm. Itcomes up quite a bit in there as
(02:53):
well. But we've never actuallydone a super deep dive on what
jobs to be done theory is, howit applies to podcasting, how it
applies to the decisions that weall make as consumers each and
every day.
And there's actually that a lotthat I think we can learn as
creators about you know, themore we understand why our
listeners might be reaching fora show like ours, the better we
(03:14):
can align our marketing withthat. So, in this episode, we're
gonna dig into some of thedetails of what this theory is,
how we can put it to use forourselves, in our marketing.
That sound good to you?
Justin (03:24):
Yeah. Sounds great. I think this is crucial to
understand this concept. It'ssimple as a concept, but its
ramifications are quite deep. SoI think the more people can
think with this paradigm, thebetter they'll be able to craft
their shows and the pitch fortheir shows.
Jeremy (03:41):
Okay. So maybe before we dive into any of the data here,
I'm curious if you could justgive the kind of general
overview of, like, what is jobsto be done theory?
Justin (03:51):
Jobs to be done is big picture, and it encapsulates why
a podcast listener or a consumerwill buy a product. What are all
the reasons that lead somebodyto choosing a podcast and then
continuing to listen to apodcast? And in the business
world, this has been used todescribe why people buy
(04:13):
products, and why they continueto use products. It was
popularized by Harvardresearcher Clayton Christensen.
He came up with the innovator'sdilemma, and he wrote a book on
this called Competing AgainstLuck, which is very good.
But, yeah, generally, itdescribes, you know, what are
the reasons, and they're oftenemotional reasons, why do people
choose one product over another?Why do they choose one podcast
(04:36):
over another? Why do they chooseone podcast episode over
another?
Jeremy (04:41):
The thing when we're talking about, like, jobs to be
done here, essentially, at theroot of this theory is that
people have needs or they havejobs that they need done in
their life. And so they, quote,unquote, hire products,
podcasts, content to do thosejobs for them. And so they, you
know, want to feel a certain wayas we've kind of talked about
Justin walking to, work in themorning. He wants to feel a
(05:03):
certain way, so he reaches for acertain podcast. He hires that
podcast to get him in themindset for work.
Whereas on the way home, then hehires a different podcast to
help him transition out of workand into home life. And so if
you start looking at your ownbehavior about why you reach for
certain podcasts or open certainnewsletters or make any decision
in your life, usually, it's likethere's some desire to feel a
(05:24):
certain way, and so we reach fora tool to help us achieve that
thing. And you could look at wetreat food that way. You think
of any kind of, like,substances, drugs, alcohol,
anything. Like, we are reachingfor something to make us feel a
certain way, reaching for a toolto do a job for us.
And so this is kind of the theheart and soul of of jobs to be
done. So Mhmm. This was actuallyone of the questions that I was
(05:46):
curious about this year goinginto the report, was basically
trying to understand, like, whatare the jobs to be done of the
shows who submitted their data,to the podcast marketing trends
report, and what can we see fromthat data in terms of, like, the
growth potential of shows? Werethere a certain type of job that
high growth shows tended tocluster around versus low growth
(06:07):
shows? And so, basically, we goteverybody to submit their shows.
And, basically, one by one, Iwent through the show
descriptions of all of theseshows and the the title and
cover art and all the packaging,and I basically assigned, each
show a category of the generaljob that it does. And so there
are basically four kind of broadcategories here that I classify
the shows into. And so the firstis problem solver. And so
(06:29):
that's, you know, pretty obvioushere. It's a show that purports
to, make your life better insome way and so maybe help you
get in better shape or helpimprove your finances or learn
x, y, or z or whatever thatmight be.
Problem solvers are prettyclear, you know, what the show
is promising to the listeners.The other kind of broad category
is pleasure giver. A lot oftimes we think about education
versus entertainment, but Ithink that this is actually a
(06:52):
little bit of a better framingto use. It's like problem
solver. It says, we will helpyou do this.
There's, a defined outcome tolisten to the show. Pleasure
giver is a show that it just,like, makes you feel good in
some way or help you kind ofexperience something. Like,
maybe it lifts your mood, like,shows that put you to sleep.
That's kind of a pleasure givershow because it's like, you're
gonna be happier. It's morepleasing to be asleep than lying
(07:13):
awake.
And so it's it's something thatis not a problem solver. So
broad catch all turn here. Andthen I had a subcategory within
that that is this kind ofinteresting show that almost
straddles the two. And I wouldthink of a show like
Freakonomics or, any of, like,Malcolm Gladwell's work is kind
of in this think piece type showwhere it's not really
entertainment so much. You don'tthink about it as you listen to
(07:35):
it to kind of get some kind ofpleasure, but it's also not an
explicit problem solver.
Like, Ezra Klein is anotherexample here. You're listening
to it to get smarter, but it'snot an end result of listening
to this show. And so these arethe the three kind of main
categories there. ThinkPieceskind of under pleasure giver,
and then the fourth category isunclear. And so there was a
bunch of shows that the thereally common giveaway here when
(07:58):
I was going through thedescriptions where the show
description would say somethinglike a conversation about topic.
And
Justin (08:06):
you read that, and you're like,
Jeremy (08:07):
well, a conversation about writing. Okay. What does
that mean? Does it help me be abetter writer? Is it just to me
to listen to, you know, authorstalk about their writing?
You know, that could be a very,like, a pleasure giving show. Do
you feel like there's any kindof dominant show within those
categories?
Justin (08:25):
So I I'll I'll say off the top that jobs to be done
theory, there's some differentfacets to it, and some people
gravitate to certain facets morethan others. I tend to feel that
jobs to be done are almostalways emotional. They're giving
you some sort of emotionalbenefit. Yeah, I think Pleasure
(08:45):
Giver and Think Peace, I thinkthose are the dominant for me
personally. And even in theproblem solving component, I'm
feeling like there's still anemotional piece of that.
Like this show, it's helping meunderstand how to run my
business finances better. Butit's also like making me feel a
(09:09):
certain way. And that could justbe, this show is entertaining.
This show makes me feel like Ihave a voice. This show is
giving a voice to somethingthat's inside of me that I
haven't been able to articulate.
This show is reassuring me. Thisshow is comforting me. So,
there's an emotional componenton these that I think that gives
(09:32):
the show some resonance. Problemsolving also, I think you see
this mostly, like trulyutilitarian problem solving. You
see this more on YouTube thanpodcasts.
Help me to fix my dryer. Theprimary thing that's pulling
somebody is like, I need to fixthis dryer. How do I fix my
dryer? Done. Podcasts are Inorder to keep people coming
(09:56):
back, because they're long form,they always need to be
emotionally resonant in someway.
And so, even if you had apodcast that was like home
repair makeover, like you'regonna help people who don't like
home repair to get better at it,There's gotta be something
(10:16):
emotionally resonant about it.Like, you love the host, you
love the way they make you feel,you love the way they encourage
you, you love the person you'rebecoming as you're listening to
the show, You love the journeythat you're on, or you love the
journey that the hosts are on.So that's some of what I'm
thinking of as you're goingthrough this.
Jeremy (10:35):
You know, I agree with you on that. And I think a lot
of shows that want to positionthemselves or do position
themselves as problem solversoften that that that is a viable
way to position a show, andwe're gonna look at some of the
data here. But I think theyoften neglect the emotional
needs that they're satisfyingfor listeners as well. And so I
think if you can bring inmultiple layers it's just a much
(10:55):
stickier show where maybe thething that people are coming to
get is the problem that theywant solved, but then they keep
coming back because there'ssomething sticky about the show
emotionally where it's like, oh,maybe even after they solve the
problem, they still keeplistening to the show to get
whatever that emotional need is.
Justin (11:10):
Yeah. And you know what this makes me think of is two
things. One, these new AIgenerated Google Notebook or,
podcasts NotebookLM. Those areoften problem solving shows.
Like, hey, let's have aconversation that kinda sounds
human between two co hosts abouta topic.
(11:30):
Right? So let's talk about WorldWar two, or let's talk about the
North American free trade, orwhatever it is. Sure. Yeah.
They're giving you theinformation.
But what I as I listened tothose, what's missing is the
emotional resonance andconnection. It's like, if I'm
gonna listen to Kara Swisher andScott Galloway talk. Yep. Now,
(11:56):
that could be just an LLMtalking back and forth. But the
reason I'm listening to them isbecause there's an emotional
connection with them.
Maybe I find Scott abrasive, andmaybe I find Kara endearing.
Maybe I followed Kara ever sinceshe was at the Washington Post.
There's these other emotionallyresonant dynamics to that
(12:18):
listener podcast relationship.And the other thing I think of
is I've just recently startedlistening to some of Scott
Galloway's stuff. And he has oneshow where he has a professional
narrator read out kind of anessay.
Jeremy (12:32):
Mhmm.
Justin (12:33):
It's just kinda like dull. Where's the emotional
connection? So being a pureproblem solver, even though it
kind of makes sense practically,like, it's like, oh, I'm just
gonna solve people's problems,and I'm gonna give them the
information in a professionalnarrated voice. You know, like,
you could do all that, and Ithink you're gonna miss what
(12:57):
makes podcasting so great.
Jeremy (12:59):
And, you know, we can maybe get into a conversation
about the job that people hirepodcasting to do in general, and
we've actually touched on thisin a previous episode this
season. But let's get to some ofthe data here because I was so
curious about this, and I haveseen data related to book sales,
related to the job to be done ofthe book. They didn't actually
use the terminology job to bedone, but it was basically the
(13:19):
same thing. And I was curious ifthat carried over into into
podcasting. And what we see hereis that 48% of the shows,
overall who submitted their datawere I classified as problem
solvers.
And so they had clearly in thedescription something saying,
basically, we'll help you dothis. Listen to the show to
learn this or to become betterat this. So 48%, just under
(13:41):
half. There was then 32% of theshows I classified as pleasure
givers. 7% were think pieces,which kinda makes sense because
that's a more, like,journalistic, often narrative
show that is a little bit lessaccessible to most creators, a
little bit harder to make, Ithink, a lot of times.
Mhmm. And then there was 13% ofshows were generally unclear.
(14:03):
Clearly, like, problem solverwas, by some margin, the
biggest. Although if you countcluster together both Pleasure
Giver and Think Piece, which iskind of a subset, that's 39%. So
it's not that big a difference,and then 13% unclear.
So that's the overallbenchmarks. And then it got a
little bit more interesting whenI broke those down both by the
growth rate of the shows andthen the overall downloads of
(14:25):
the shows. With the high growthrate shows and so these were
shows that doubled theirdownloads over the course of a
year. So something, you know,anybody would like to achieve.
High growth shows were 10% morelikely to be problem solvers
than average.
And so 58% of high growth shows,were classified as problem
solvers versus 48 for theaverage. So, you know, we look
(14:47):
at that and we see that it seemsto suggest that, okay, if you
wanna grow faster, then youshould have a problem solver
show whether you want to or not.But I think there's actually
another even maybe more tellingstatistic here, which is the
shows that underperformed theaverage were three times as
likely to have an nonspecificunclear job to be done. And so
there were shows that you readthe description, and you're just
(15:09):
kind of like, I don't know whatthis show is telling me it's
going to do for me in any way.Is it going to entertain me?
Is it going to help me learnsomething? And so those were
were 17% of underperformingshows were unclear versus only
5% of shows that outperformed,the average growth rate. So,
curious on your, like,reflections, thoughts on that in
terms of, like, how showsposition themselves.
Justin (15:30):
Yeah. I mean, I think the big takeaway here is asking,
what is this show for? Is a goodquestion. And I think layered on
top is, how do I want this showto make people feel? Like,
what's what feelings am I tryingto invoke?
Because what is this show for?You can kind of bullshit that.
(15:53):
You can kind of say, well, thisshow is to help people
accelerate their career growth.That's what it's What makes Jobs
To Be Done different is you'reactually looking at the real
reasons that people choose ashow. These are reasons that
people might not articulateright away.
You have to listen between thelines as to why they're choosing
(16:16):
the show. And there's oftenmultiple jobs being done, and
they're almost always emotionalat the same So, what is this
show for? Sure. That'simportant. But then, what do I
want people to feel?
Yeah. And what feelings aregoing to help us to draw people
in episode after episode? Sosometimes people can go very
(16:40):
pragmatic with jobs to be done.Again, this show is to help
people accelerate their careergrowth. That's part of it.
But really, a lot of this islike, no, the emotions connected
to career growth. What do peopleneed? They need encouragement.
They need comfort. They needsomebody that's going to give
them the real, raw humanexistence of what it's like to
(17:06):
look for a job, and how hard itis, and how debilitating it is
to go from interview tointerview.
Like, that's the juice. That'swhat you want. And so, I think
these unclear shows, they canjust be very banal and general,
like you've mentioned. Or theycan have a purpose, this show is
(17:27):
for this, but they haven't hiton that emotionally resonant
piece. And Yeah.
That's really what you wannaget.
Jeremy (17:36):
The other data that I looked at here was the jobs to
be done broken down by downloadnumbers, and so shows, over
10,000 downloads an episode, oneto 10,000 downloads an episode,
and less than 10,000 downloadsan episode. Basically, the the
categories of jobs we've arekinda split very similar to the
overall averages. Except, again,we see that the shows with less
than a thousand downloads wereonce again three times more
(17:58):
likely to have a very unclearkind of sense of what the show
is for. And the the one thingthat I'll add here too is that
this is based on thedescriptions of the shows, which
oftentimes have not been updatedin years. And so it's totally
possible that many of theseshows actually do have clear
jobs to be done that a listenercould articulate, having
listened to show or that thehost could articulate, but it
(18:18):
hasn't been updated in thepackaging, which I think is
still, you know, something thatwe need to be thinking about.
I agree a % with you on theemotional nature of listening to
podcasts and and that being thecore reason I reach for any show
at any given time. It's becauseI want to feel a certain way
typically. Mhmm. But I will saythat there are almost these two
(18:39):
stages of jobs to be done whereoftentimes people will seek out
a show because they want aproblem solved. And so Mhmm.
I have certainly signed up forshows in the past and subscribed
to them because I'm looking tolearn how to do this thing
better. And the thing that wemight get into here in a second
is that oftentimes, I might testout five different shows on that
topic. And so I am looking tohave a problem solved, but then
(19:02):
one show sticks with me becauseit has that emotional kind of
undercurrent to it that pulls mein. Mhmm. And so and the other
ones don't have that or, youknow, it's just not aligned with
me.
And so I think the problem withmessaging the emotional jobs to
be done in your description andin your marketing is that it
often like, it's be it's kind ofbland and generic and universal.
Like, we all kind of want a lotof the same emotional things.
(19:25):
And so it's like you want tomessage more of some of the
actionable kind of jobs to bedone in the description and the
outward facing packaging that afirst time person is coming
across this, you can't tellthem, like, this show is gonna
make you feel seen and warm and,like, like, you're part of a
community because you gottaexperience it to feel that. And
a lot of shows have messagingthat's somewhat aligned with
(19:45):
that. And it's like, yeah.
Right. You and everybody else.But once you listen, you're
like, oh, it actually does dothat. And so Yeah. There has to
be something believable, apromise that is maybe more
functional in the description,and then there is the emotional
job to be unsatisfied on theinside.
Justin (19:59):
Yeah. This is actually one of the reasons it's sad that
not every podcast app haswritten reviews, because often,
the written review is what ishelping people decide. When they
read the slogan or thedescription or the title, it's
like, okay, that's what's on thetin. But then they read the
(20:21):
reviews, and they're like, oh,this is how this show makes
people feel. You know?
So Yeah. Those can often work intandem. People should actually
be highlighting their bestreview in their descriptions
more often. I think you couldtake a one line, in quotation
marks thing. If someone hasarticulated what the show is,
and why it's resonant betterthan you ever could, just put
(20:41):
that in quotation marks at thebeginning, or the middle, or the
end of your description.
You can communicate some ofthese elements through your show
art, through your title, throughyour description. But often,
what where jobs to be donereally comes in, is what are all
the emotional triggers that ledsomeone to choosing your show in
(21:03):
the first place? And then, whatare all the emotional reasons
that they keep coming back? Butthat actual decision point, if
they're basing it ondescription, title, cover art,
that's a little bit different.Right?
You're gonna have to use otherlevers to draw them in.
Jeremy (21:20):
Okay. So we're gonna talk about how the specific
category of job that your showdoes is going to influence, the
way that you market your show ina minute. But first, let's dig a
little bit further into theactual, like, core ideas behind
jobs to be done. One of the mainideas behind jobs to be done is
this idea of unmet needs, And wecan use the word needs kind of
(21:41):
interchangeably with desires.And so people have some kind of
need or desire to feel a certainway.
And those, as you've kindamentioned, they can be
functional, but more often,there's a heavy emotional
component as well. And so, we'vealready listed a few, but, like,
what are some of the maybe,like, functional and or
emotional needs that you canthink of that a podcast might
solve?
Justin (22:00):
Probably the main functional job of a podcast is
entertain me while I drive towork. I just need something to
occupy my brain while I'm doingthat commute. And there's an
emotional component to that aswell. But the deeper emotional
job there might be, sure,entertain me during my commute.
(22:22):
But also, help me, like, inspireme on, like, ways I could live
my life better.
Or, show me how I might thinkabout my relationships at work
differently than I am right now.
Jeremy (22:35):
Yeah.
Justin (22:36):
Yeah. So often, there's like this broader functional
purpose, but then there's thisemotional component that's
deeper down that you gotta find.
Jeremy (22:45):
I think it's interesting as an exercise. I know I listen
to multiple shows on, you know,the same broad topic overall.
And so over the past year, I'velistened to probably five
different shows on some varietyof writing. I reach for
different shows at differenttimes because some of them are
much more expansive. And it'slike, it's not so tactical and
(23:05):
in the weeds.
Like, that's not the emotionalexperiencing, that I'm wanting
right then. And so it's like,just wanna be stewing in general
writing conversations that are alittle bit higher level. And,
and so I think that anybody wholistens to multiple shows on the
same topic can probably start topick apart, like, why do I
listen to one show over anotherat different times? And maybe
you notice that there are timesof day where it's, like, it's
going to the office versus fromthe office where you reach for
(23:28):
one or the other. And I thinkthat for me, thinking about the
way that you make decisions andjust observing that in yourself
is one of the best things thatyou can do to improve your
ability as a marketer.
Because now you understand,like, oh, if I make decisions
like this, other people makedecisions like this too. And the
better I understand, like, howmy brain works and how
different, shows slot into myday and the way that I make
(23:49):
decisions around, you know, whatI reach for, then I'm gonna be
able to position my show, tobetter appeal to the people who
are probably looking forsomething like that.
Justin (23:57):
Mhmm. And I actually have a good example now that I
think will help us clarify someof these thoughts. So I have
someone in my family who hasdyslexia. So I started seeking
out resources around dyslexia,found this podcast called Sold a
Story. I had this functionalthing.
Like, I'm trying to figure out,you know, responses to dyslexia,
(24:19):
all these sorts of things. Butwhat kept me engaged in the show
was how the show made me feel.Like, wow, it's uncovering this
deep problem with our educationsystem. It's helping me feel
seen and heard. It's helping theperson in my family who has
dyslexia.
It's helping them to be heard aswell, and helping me understand
(24:42):
their emotions. That was theresonant emotional job that it
was doing for me. So there'sthis high level functional need.
Yes, I'm trying to getinformation on this. I'm trying
to figure out an approach, aresponse.
But what kept me coming back washow it made me feel. And I think
as we move into this next thing,we can talk about the series of
(25:05):
events that happens in adecision. I think you'll really
see that at play in thatexample.
Jeremy (25:11):
You know, that makes me think that, you know, your
functional need here was tounderstand dyslexia better. And
so it's possible that there is ashow that is hyperacademic PhDs
on dyslexia, and it's like, thatfulfills that functional job
you're seeking out, but it doesnothing for that emotional need.
It should do the job, but it'snot actually doing it in the way
that is you're appealing to you.
Justin (25:30):
That's right.
Jeremy (25:31):
And so I think that that there's there's the second kind
of piece of jobs to be done thatis interesting, which comes down
to how we compare differentoptions. And so I think one of
the things that we're allfamiliar with is we have some
need for something in our life.We feel some lack or we're we
have a desire, and so we startlooking for options. It's not
just like, I have this need, andthat's the thing for me. In
(25:52):
general, we say, okay.
I wanna learn podcast marketing,and I'm gonna see if there's any
podcasts on that. And so youmight search podcast marketing,
podcast growth into Spotify orYouTube or wherever, And maybe
our show comes up, and maybethere are five to 10 other shows
that come up. And so,essentially, in jobs to be done,
there's this trigger event isthe thing that people will talk
(26:12):
about kicks it all off. So a lotof times, you'll have some
realization or maybe somethingchanges in your life that now
sets you off looking for, youknow, a solution to that
problem. Mhmm.
And so after the trigger event,there is a initial consideration
set. And so this is when yousearch in Spotify, and you're
like, hey. There's 10 shows onpodcast marketing. Any one of
these could potentially help megrow my show. Which one am I
(26:33):
gonna subscribe to?
And so that next phase is calledthe active evaluation phase. And
so this might be where youactually click into a bunch of
them. You read the descriptions.You look at the episode titles.
Maybe you listen to the teasers.
And, eventually, you come to asolution and you say, okay. I'm
gonna try this one. And so thishere is the decision point. And
if it's a paid product, thiswould be the purchase. If it's a
(26:55):
podcast, it's maybe you clickplay on a show and you commit to
listening through it.
And so here, a lot of us think,great. The job's done. We've,
like, won a new listener over,but this is actually only
halfway through the process. Andso after you've clicked play on
an episode or you've made thedecision to engage with whatever
the the content is or theproduct is, then we get into the
post decision evaluation. And sonow you've made the purchase,
(27:18):
you've spent the time on theshow, and you're thinking, is
this going to actually solve thejob that I need done?
And if you feel confident thatit is, then probably you're just
gonna stick with that thing. Butas in many situations we've all
experienced, you've, you know,bought a course that didn't help
you do whatever the coursepromised it was gonna do, or you
listen to a podcast that didn'tsatisfy the emotional need that
you had. Now you actually goback to the start of the cycle,
(27:40):
and you go back to that initialconsideration set, you say,
maybe one of these other showswill do a better job of that for
me. And so you keep goingthrough that cycle until you end
on something that actuallyfulfills the job. So this is the
kind of overall cycle that weall are going through in, you
know, dozens of different areasof our lives every single day.
Justin (27:57):
Yeah. We need to pay a lot of attention to the
triggering event, because thatreally informs how we can draw
listeners in in these subsequentsteps. So, I think there's kind
of two types of this. There's Inmy case with dyslexia, this
family member has beenstruggling with it for a long
(28:17):
time, so there's this slow burnof just talking to this person,
and hearing their frustration,and just that's always going on
in the background. But then thetriggering event, in this case,
if I'm remembering it correctly,was seeing a post on social
media from the reporter who wasinvolved in the podcast.
(28:37):
And it was just enough to like,Oh, wow. That's interesting. And
then followed the rabbit holedown to, Okay. Well, in my
initial consideration set, itwas just like, here's this
podcast, and am I going to trythis out? Active evaluation,
clicked play, and thenimmediately, they set up the
(28:59):
emotionally resonant part rightaway, which is schools in North
America have been not payingattention to the real research
behind how kids learn to read,and we're going to uncover the
truth.
I'm in. Yeah. It's emotionallyresonant, and then, you know, I
made that decision to listen tothe episode because they they
(29:21):
hooked me, and then I just keeplistening more and more and
more. So the whole thing abouttrigger event is there's things
going on in people's lives, andsometimes you just need to break
through the noise and say, hey,if this is going on in your
life, like if you've ever feltthis way, or if you're thinking
about this, or you're stressedabout this, or you want to
(29:42):
achieve this, here's a show foryou. Another type of triggering
event, which is like, The UnitedStates is applying some tariffs
on Canada and Mexico.
Immediately, you are seeking outinformation on how is this going
to affect me. So this is like anews story. And so in that case,
you might, you know, search fora bunch of shows, and then
(30:04):
you're picking something. Andmaybe, you know, in that case,
the triggering event wassomebody recommended the show to
you. So you're talking aroundthe water cooler about tariffs,
and they say, you know what?
This show really helped meunderstand the whole backdrop to
this. It's like, oh, okay. I'llI'll check that out. So
understanding the backdrop inpeople's lives and, you know,
(30:26):
how that forms a foundation forthe decisions they're gonna
make, and then understandingthese triggering events are
really important for marketing.
Jeremy (30:34):
And I think there's a few other ways that trigger
events can be used in marketing.I think, you know, for some
shows, the when you talked aboutdyslexia, I've come across
several, shows related to ADHD.And especially because we're
currently in a wave of awarenessaround adult diagnosed ADHD. And
so I've seen a lot of shows.I've done some audits for
(30:55):
clients where basically themessaging or the description of
the show meets people wherethey're at based on the trigger
event.
And so it's like, have you beendiagnosed as an adult with ADHD?
And so the show knows that youhave probably recently found out
that you have ADHD, and nowyou're looking for resources on
that. And so the show haspositioned itself perfectly to
meet you where you're at, whichis a different show than
(31:16):
somebody who was diagnosed as achild and has always known this.
That's probably two totallydifferent shows, but the one is
appealing to its audience basedon that trigger event right
there and is is meeting themthere. And, like, some shows
have very easily understandableand and noticeable trigger
events.
And so any, like, new parentingshow. Like, you just had a baby.
(31:36):
There's a massive trigger eventthat your life has changed
forever, and you need to learn awhole bunch of new stuff. And
you probably also need someemotional support as well. Mhmm.
And so some shows can, you know,speak to that much more acutely.
A show like ours is a little bitdifferent. I've wondered in my
business for a long time, I'vetried to figure out what are the
trigger events that set somebodyoff looking for services like
(31:58):
mine. And I have some guesses atthings that could be in the mix
there. And so I think a lot oftimes, you know, I work with
people who have been producingtheir shows for a while already.
And so it's not like theydecided to start a podcast, now
they're looking for a podcasthost, which would be, you know,
one of Transistor's triggerevents. It's like, hey. I'm
starting a podcast. Now I needto go find out all the stuff I
need to do. I need to buy themic.
I need to get podcast hosting.Whatever.
Justin (32:21):
Yeah.
Jeremy (32:21):
For me, I've often thought it's probably something
like I have a milestone episodewhere maybe I reached episode
200, and my downloads are stillat, like, 200 downloads an
episode. And I'm like, you'reyou're reevaluating this. Like,
okay. You reached a milestone.Things aren't where they are.
And so it's now it's like, okay.I gotta really do something
different. It could also be kindof like I've been doing the show
for a year, and things aren't asgood as I hope. And so that's
(32:42):
kind of a little bit where Ithink about my services, and I
think a show like this is morepositioned for people who it's
like, okay. I've been doing thisa while.
There's not maybe a distincttrigger. It's maybe more there's
a nagging feeling, and thenthere's a trigger maybe where
somebody else, like, mentionsthe show and they're like, it
clicks with them, and they'relike, oh, maybe I need to take
that approach to my show andlearn more about the data
marketing side of things. And soit's can be difficult to
(33:05):
understand that trigger, but Ithink it's worth trying to think
through it.
Justin (33:08):
Yeah. And in that case, you could use some of that
terminology in your pitch. Doyou have a nagging feeling that
your show is underperforming,that it could be doing a lot
higher downloads, that the showis better than your audience
size. Well, I help people likeyou all the time, and this is a
(33:31):
show, or this is a service thathelps. So, I think tapping into
I've used this example before,but I think a lot of stand up
comedy is just articulatingthings that people are feeling
that they've never heardarticulated before.
And I think a lot of goodmarketing does that as well. It
articulates these naggingfeelings, And then when we see
(33:53):
it as a slogan or a headline, wego, oh, thank you. This reminds
me of there's that podcastcalled Bad With Money. You know?
It just, like, perfectlyencapsulates this thing.
Like, I just feel like I'm badwith money. I'm terrible at it.
And then a show comes outthat's, like, bad with money.
It's, like, perfectly addressesthis nagging feeling that you
(34:15):
have.
Jeremy (34:16):
That's a great example because somebody who self
identifies as bad with money,they probably have a bunch of
scenarios that happen every day,maybe every week, however often,
where they tell themselves, I'mjust so bad with money. I missed
the bill payment or, you know,whatever happened. There's all
these little trigger events, andthen they see a show that speaks
(34:37):
to them saying bad with money,and they're like, oh, that thing
was made for me.
Justin (34:40):
Mhmm. And there could also be these triggering events
can be, like, incrediblydramatic. These moments where
it's like, that's it. I'm done.I'm going to solve this problem
today.
And I think someone like DaveRamsey really benefits from So,
you have credit card debt, andyou've just seen your debt go up
and up and up, and then maybeyou just had a number in your
(35:02):
head like, it can't go pastthis. And then it hits like 50
ks, and you're like, oh my God,that's it. I'm making a
decision. I'm gonna go find DaveRamsey. He is the guy that helps
people like me.
I'm gonna solve this problem. Ithink understanding that can
also be powerful too, these kindof oh shit moments that overcome
(35:24):
all of the friction somebodymight have had before.
Jeremy (35:28):
Yeah. So there's one more trigger event that I think
is specifically relevant to moreof these pleasure giver,
specifically entertainment styleshows. We're gonna save that
because we're gonna get to, howdo we market based on the type
of show that we have. But first,I wanna talk a little bit about
how listeners interactdifferently at some of the
(35:49):
dynamics that are at play withthese different types of shows.
And I think the the first thingthat really comes to mind for me
with problem solver shows, oneof the things they benefit from
is there's often this additionalsense of urgency that works for
you as a creator.
Yeah. And so people are alreadyseeking out something, and they
are going to pick a solution.And so it might not be your
show, but they are they havemade the decision. They're like,
(36:10):
okay. I need to solve thisproblem.
I'm going to look for a podcastthat promises to do that for me,
and then I'm gonna pick one, andI'm gonna listen to it. And
maybe I'm gonna sample a few,but I am going to find a podcast
to help me do this thing whenmaybe I'm also gonna be
subscribing to YouTube channelsand reading books. But, like, I
am in search of solutions, andso, you know, they're in a an
attention spending mode on thattopic. And so I think that's one
(36:31):
of the reasons that problemsolver shows or shows that
position itself that way.They're a little bit sharper in
terms of their ability to marketthemselves, I think.
And I think there's alsogenerally not so much
competition in that categorywhere, like, promising to do any
kind of one job, if it's reallybroad, like, help you get in
shape, okay, there's a lot ofshows there. But you can look at
(36:53):
very niche jobs that need to bedone, and there might be five to
10 shows. And so the competitionis much smaller versus, like,
entertain me Mhmm. Which islike, okay, infinite content out
there in the world. And so Yeah.
I think that's something that'sworth keeping in mind with those
problem solver shows that theydo have an advantage there.
Anything else that comes to mindin terms of, like, the dynamics
at play with problem solversversus pleasure givers?
Justin (37:16):
I just think it's very clear in this context why people
might choose a podcast overother mediums. So this is where
jobs to be done really when welook at just different mediums
really comes into play. So I'vegot a problem to solve, and I
could choose a YouTube video, abook, or a podcast. And Mhmm.
(37:38):
Problem is I don't have enoughtime in my day.
So, I'm trying to figure out howam I going to cover this
additional material, but I don'thave any more time in my day.
The only thing I have is a onehour commute every day. Well,
can't use YouTube, becausethat's visual. Can't use a book,
because that's also visual,unless they go audiobook. But
podcasts, this just fits into mylife.
(38:00):
I can listen to podcasts, andsolve this problem while I'm
driving. People marketing theirpodcasts can bring this into
their marketing more often thanthey do. Like, we know you could
go and do a bunch of research insome books. But that's gonna
take you hours. We'vesynthesized it all.
(38:22):
You don't have time to read thetrade publications every day.
But you do have thirty minuteswhile you're walking to work
every day. Why don't you let usread out the trade publications
to you? And that can become partof your pitch. So understanding
where your listeners orpotential listeners might be
getting other information, likewhat else is competing for their
(38:43):
attention, and go, well, hey.
Here's why this format isbetter.
Jeremy (38:48):
Another thing that comes to mind for me in terms of the
category of job here,specifically with problem
solvers, there's some benefitshere that, you know, that's a
little bit sharper in terms oftheir messaging sometimes. But I
think there's a downside thatactually problem solvers
probably should expect higherchurn. And, like, every show's
gonna have churn, but I thinkit's almost like the better the
(39:09):
show is at solving the problem,the faster it's gonna lose
listeners. And so it's kind ofthis catch 22 a little bit where
it's like, yeah, if you arepromising to deliver on a job
for listeners, you actually wantto help them do that thing, but
then you have to actually expectthat you're gonna lose all those
listeners or or a significantpercentage of them. So I think
that's another dynamic here.
You know, you could also arguethat a lot of those shows that
(39:30):
are problem solvers areconnected to businesses, which
may have another method ofsolving the problem, which,
again, can lead to churn becausepeople sign up for the product
or service, which is actuallywhat you want, but then they
stop listening to the podcastbecause they're now getting it
in higher resolution elsewhere.So I think that's another kind
of interesting side effect here.
Justin (39:46):
Yeah. That's the nature of all of this. It's like,
whether in business or inpodcasting or in television or
whatever, it's like peoplefinish Breaking Bad, and it's
like, what's our options here?Well, we've optimized for people
to rewatch it. We've alsocreated a new show called Better
Call Saul that people can go tonext.
So you have options there, butit's something to think about
(40:10):
strategically. Like, okay, isthis the kind of show people
could listen to over and overagain? There's some series I've
listened to Yep. Over and overagain. Is this the kind of show
we can once they're done thispiece, we give them the next
step in another series?
So there's this nice funnel intothe next thing. So, yeah, you
can think strategically aboutthis.
Jeremy (40:30):
The last thing that, comes to mind for this in terms
of the differences in engagementbetween the two kind of major
categories is I think the barfor quality is actually much
lower on problem solvers. If youare purely promising that the
show is designed to solve aproblem, as long as you can
solve the problem effectively,your production does not need to
be amazing. And probably there'sa whole bunch of other
(40:52):
attributes that you can not beso great at as long as you're
getting people results becausethat's what you're promising and
that's what they're coming for.Whereas I think with pleasure
giver shows, you get into moreentertainment. Now you're in
this pool of the bestentertainment in the world,
which is how do you compete withthat?
And I think that's where we getinto there are still niching is
still a thing. There are stillgenres that you can position
(41:13):
your show within so that you'renot just competing with anyone
and everything.
Justin (41:17):
I think this is one of the big problems that people
make when they'reconceptualizing a show. It's
like, so who are you competingwith here? You're competing with
Mel Robbins? You're competingwith
Jeremy (41:29):
Mhmm.
Justin (41:29):
Joe Rogan? Okay. That's gonna be hard. They can do the
three guys talking on the couchway better than you can.
Jeremy (41:37):
Now I'm glad you brought up, Mel Robbins and Joe Rogan
because that actuallytransitions into our our kinda
last segment here of how do youthink about marketing the
different types of shows. And,you know, one of the common
complaints that you hear frompodcasters, which is, I think,
warranted, is that mostmarketing advice tends to be
geared towards more educationalstyle shows, which this
functional kind of job to bedone. And it's usually because,
(42:00):
like, that's just it's so clear.Like, people are looking for a
problem that they have to besolved, and so you can position
your show that way. And it'sit's it is a lot easier to
market that.
There's actually a couple fewersteps in the process.
Justin (42:11):
Mhmm. It's not
Jeremy (42:11):
to say that you can't market a show that is more of a
pleasure giver, and we're gonnatalk about that here. But, you
know, as I've been thinkingabout, you know, these different
types of shows, there's actuallyyou realize some advantages that
pleasure giver shows have thatproblem solvers don't have, and
there's also some disadvantages.So I figured we'd start out with
with some of these advantagesand opportunities of each type
(42:33):
of show. And so I think one ofthe the first big opportunities
for Pleasure Givers is thatwhile the competition is higher,
there's actually a much biggerpotential audience. And so I
actually, went through thismorning in today's Apple Podcast
top 50 shows, and I categorizedthese based on our kinda two
broad categories here.
(42:54):
There's a bunch of think piecesin here that I just left in the
Pleasure Giver. But, basically,of the top 50 shows, there are
five that I would classify asproblem solvers. Mhmm. And Mel
Robbins is one of those. And ifyou read the first sentence of
her description, it's basicallylike, this show will help you
live a better life.
It's something like that. And soit's promising that it's gonna
make your life better. Yeah. Theother shows here, we've got,
(43:16):
Huberman Lab, Diary of a CEO, OnPurpose with Jay Shetty, and the
Ultimate Human, is the otherone. And so those are kind of
the five that I classified asproblem solvers.
And then everything else isbasically a pleasure giver. And
so you think most media thatexists is designed to be a
pleasurable experience in someway. And so there is a unmatched
(43:38):
audience, on that side ofthings. And so I think that that
is certainly a benefit thatwhile the competition is higher,
so is the growth potential inmost cases.
Justin (43:46):
Yeah. Just remember, you gotta really consider what arena
you're walking into. The betterapproach for most folks is to
say, well, I'm solving aproblem, but I'm also going to
make this entertaining. So I'mgonna merge these two together.
That's where most of us canplay.
Right? Like, the truth is isthat a lot of these problem
solving shows are boring. So howare you going to make it more
(44:09):
engaging? How are you going toup the quality bar? Because
given the choice between twoshows, it could be that people
prefer something that's betterquality, better produced,
funnier, better edited.
So, there's a way of competingthere by, getting those
serotonin and dopamine levelsup.
Jeremy (44:30):
A couple other things that come to mind as actually
benefits or opportunities forpleasure giver shows that do not
exist for problem solvers isthat, for one, they don't feel
like work. And so, you know, wegot this feedback on our show
when we did our listener surveyin last season that some people
said, like, yeah. You know, Iwanna listen, but it just feels
like work to me. And so, like,that's a kind of headwind
(44:52):
against us in marketing thisshow that there's people who are
in our target audience who just,like, they think about this
stuff enough during the day, andthey're like, yeah. I can't be
bothered to do that in my walkhome from work time now.
And so, you know, that'ssomething that can work against
problem solving shows. But Ithink the other big one, and
this gets back to that commentthat I made around an additional
trigger that is reallyinteresting for pleasure givers,
(45:14):
specifically with limitedseries, is that people who
listeners who listen to a lot oflimited series show, and so I
think about, like, true crime oranything like that, you finish
one series, and now you'reimmediately that's the trigger
to seek out the next thing. Andso my wife, Kelly, is very much
this type of listener who haslistened through every show in a
broad kind of genre. And soshe's always like, I can't find
(45:35):
any good new shows. Like, she'slistened through all of them
because she listens constantly.
And so with problem solvers,people are often seeking out
content, but so are people wholisten to pleasure giving shows
a lot of times
Justin (45:46):
Yeah.
Jeremy (45:46):
Where they, like, finish the show, and then it's like,
okay. What's up next? What's upnext? And so that's actually
something that you can plug intowith pleasure giving shows. And
I think because there are moreshows, I would say, in general
out in public, it wasn't reallyin the survey, but I think my
audience is a bit skewed more tothe problem solver side.
But I think in general, there'smore shows I would categorize as
pleasure giving. And so I thinkthere's almost infinite cross
(46:08):
promotional opportunities toplug in so that when that
trigger event ends, peoplefinish listening to one show.
It's like, hey. Here's, like,the next show for you, and you
can kinda set up theserecommendation networks.
Justin (46:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's well said. And, sure,
there's a lot of shows like thisin the top 100, but in they
have, you know, their own nichesas well. Like, there are people
that like documentary styleserial shows that aren't true
crime.
And so Mhmm. If you're one ofthose people making those shows,
(46:38):
then you have an advantagebecause, people are actively
seeking those out. You can seeit in Reddit threads like, hey,
I just finished the series. Whatwould you recommend next? Yep.
And there's this nice momentumthere. So these are the kinds of
things you wanna seek out,especially observing what people
are saying. Like, what are theysaying on social media or on
(47:01):
LinkedIn or on Reddit,especially. Like, I just
finished the show. I loved it.
What should I listen to next?That is gold in terms of
conceptualizing a show and go,oh, I'm gonna make a show for
these people because they arehungry.
Jeremy (47:17):
Now on the the problem solver side, a couple we've
talked about some of theadvantages there. They often
have, like, very focusedmessaging that aligns with what
people are looking for. We alsotalked about how the bar for
quality can be lower in somecases. I think the big advantage
with problem solvers is thatit's and this is the big
disadvantage with pleasuregivers is that with problem
solvers, you can before you evereven start the show, you can
(47:38):
research all the problemsalready and design the show to
fit into their world. Where withmore of a entertainment or
pleasure giver style show, youoften cannot.
And a lot of times, you actuallyneed to start by making the
show, go out and market to abunch of different communities,
and try and find out where do Ifind traction. And then you
start to research those people,and now you're basically at the
(47:58):
starting line of where theproblem solvers were already.
Now you have these people, andyou can actually do these kind
of listener interviews, and youcan be like, oh, this is why
people like this show. This iswhat keeps them coming back.
These are the jobs that they'relooking to have solved.
And so then you can kind ofadjust your show to be more in
line with that. And so that, Ithink, is the the missing step
that causes a lot of frustrationfor more of the pleasure giving
(48:20):
style show where you have to,like, design your show to do
solve a problem that peoplehave, but my show doesn't solve
a problem. And I think that thisframework of jobs to be done
actually starts to give you thelanguage for, like, oh, okay.
It's not a problem in the way Ithought about it, but there is a
need or desire that people havethat they are choosing this show
for. And I just need to, like,try and find some traction, do
anything I can to get my firsthundred listeners per episode,
(48:43):
and then start doing everythingI can to get in touch with those
people and try to understand,like, what are the commonalities
that got people to seek out theshow, where did they come across
it, and what keeps them comingback.
Yeah. So, yeah, I think in termsof marketing the shows, I think,
you know, in both cases, we needto have this understanding of
why are people coming to theshow in the first place, both
why are they seeking it out andwhat's keeping them coming back.
(49:04):
And so I know you mentioned, andyou're a big fan of reading
reviews, and pulling informationfrom there. You can find a lot
of that there. Mhmm.
I also like another tactic oflooking at competitors' reviews
and seeing what is drawingpeople to those shows and also
Amazon book reviews. And so ifthere are books on your topic,
you can kinda mine those reviewsand find out, like, oh, why are
people seeking out content ingeneral like this? Because,
(49:25):
again, like, with the idea ofjobs to be done, people might be
choosing a podcast to solve ajob, but they might also be
choosing a book or a YouTubechannel. And so there's actually
a lot of information out therethat it might not be why they're
choosing your show, but it iswhat is getting them to seek out
a piece of content on the topic.And so I think those are are
some of the ways that you canget these insights.
Anything else come to mind foryou?
Justin (49:47):
I just think this framework of thinking about
people hiring your show to do ajob in their life is just so
helpful. In the same way thatyou would hire a landscaper.
It's not just like you just wantthe grass cut, because the grass
could be cut poorly. You'rehiring it to do this job, which
is, I want my lawn to lookamazing for the neighbors.
(50:10):
Right?
Like, that's what you'reseeking. And people hire all
sorts of things in their livesevery day to do jobs in their
lives, and your podcast is oneof those things. And you just
need to think about how am Igonna get people to hire this
show, this episode, and why arethey hiring this? Like, if you
(50:31):
start to get people who arehiring it, you get listeners,
what are they getting out ofthis? What are they hiring this
show for?
What job is it doing in theirlives? This is just a very
helpful framework for thinkingthrough how your particular
audience, what might bemotivating them to choose a
podcast like yours in the firstplace.
Jeremy (50:54):
Yeah. And I think the other thing, you know, when it
comes to understanding thetrigger events and the jobs
people are hiring your show todo, a lot of times, and again,
not always, It can often tellyou where to go to position
yourself or what partnerships tomake. People who are looking for
a podcast host are probably alsobuying microphones and gear.
Maybe they're signing up for atool like Squadcast or
Riverside. And so it's great fora podcast host to say, hey.
(51:16):
Let's make a partnership withone of these other things that
people are already searching forwhen they're in the process of
starting a podcast. And so wecan both promote each other so
that if somebody findsTransistor, they're also gonna
find Shure microphones at thesame time. We're gonna recommend
them because we like theirmicrophones, And maybe they're
gonna recommend us as theirpreferred podcast host because
people are in the same processat the same time. And so when
(51:37):
you understand that kind of ajob that people are looking to
have done, what other servicesor content is showing up in the
same place, you can actuallyposition yourself, make
partnerships, do collaborationswith people operating in the
same space.
Justin (51:50):
Exactly.
Jeremy (51:51):
As we kinda round things out here, let's just go down
some, rapid fire list of some ofthe shows that we listen to and
share some of the jobs that theydo for us. Do you have any,
shows that come to mind thathave specific jobs you hire them
to do?
Justin (52:03):
So I have three here. Making Sense, and the job it's
doing is give me a reassuringvoice in times of turmoil. So,
scary event happens in theworld. I go to Sam Harris to
just give me this calm, reasonedpoint of view, walk me through
it, and I just find that verycomforting. Professor G Markets,
(52:27):
help me understand what'shappening in the markets so that
I can respond as an investor andbusiness owner.
Great. Dear John Letters, be myolder Gen X brother who can give
me advice and keep me company asI walk home.
Jeremy (52:42):
Alright. Yeah. I got, a few here myself. And so, there's
a couple there's actually two,On Being and Poetry Unbound,
which are actually both underthe On Being umbrella. But these
it was interesting.
They're two totally differentshows, but I use them in the
same way, which is kind of justto adopt a more expansive view.
So if I feel like I'm reallymaybe tense and I just, like, I
wanna think bigger abouthumanity and what it means to be
(53:05):
a human and just kind of, like,get out of my own head, those
are two shows that I go toregularly to kinda put myself in
that mode. Interesting one,Money for Couples, Ramit Sethi.
I've mentioned him a number oftimes. This is interesting that
the job has shifted over time.
And so when I first startedlistening to the show, it was
much more of a problem solver,tactical, I wanna learn more
about finances as a couple,specifically as I was engaged
(53:28):
and getting ready to be married.And now I listen to it almost as
a way to just keep my mind onmoney and thinking about, like,
making smart decisions. And soMhmm. I don't necessarily want
to drift into laziness. And so Ilisten regularly, not to
specifically learn anything.
I just wanna keep it top ofmind. And I actually noticed
myself doing this with a wholebunch of content where it's
like, I just wanna stew insomething because I wanna be
(53:51):
thinking about this. I've readseveral books on business
operations recently. And,really, I was like, I already
got everything I needed from onebook, but I read three more
because I was like, I justreally wanna soak in this for a
time period. It wasn't like Iwanna read this many books.
It was like, I wanna be thinkingabout this for several weeks at
a time so that my mind canreally stew in it and hear the
same thing from multipledifferent angles. And so I read
(54:11):
multiple books on it, and I was,like, aware that that was kind
of a weird decision. But, also,I know, if I just read the one
book, I'm gonna, you know, moveon from it pretty quickly. So
I'm gonna read some more. Thelast one, this is really
interesting, LaBar Burton Reads.
Mhmm. I love that the podcasthas now sadly ended, but I reach
for the show every timespecifically when I am, like,
(54:31):
having trouble falling asleep. Iwill use LaVar Burton Reads as
a, like, bedtime podcast, but Iwill always listen to very
specific episodes that I'velistened to so many times,
always when I've had troublesleeping in the past. And so I
already know the plot. I'm not,like, awake trying to figure it
out, and they're justcomforting, and they help put me
to sleep.
So Mhmm. Some of the shows thatI reach for to do certain jobs
(54:51):
for me.
Justin (54:52):
I think if you look at the Instagram reels that Ramit
Sadie is doing for money forcouples, there's this other
interesting job to be done,which is help me to see that
other couples have problems justlike me.
Jeremy (55:07):
Yes.
Justin (55:07):
And I think feeling seen and heard is just an underrated
job to be done that Yeah. Morepeople should be tapping into.
It's especially potent in theaudio form. And too often,
people get on the mics andthey're trying to be this
buttoned up professionalbroadcaster person. And what
(55:34):
they're missing is that thevulnerability that brings
audiences back.
And so to hear, oh, othercouples are struggling too.
That's just like us. You know?And these can often create these
triggering events where, youknow, people might send a clip
to their spouse and go, oh, thisis just like that conversation
(55:57):
we were having the other day.Know?
Looking at the way people aremarketing some of these shows,
and Ramit Sethi is a greatmarketer, go and look at his
TikTok and his, Instagram reelsand YouTube shorts. See which
clips they're choosing, and whatjobs do those kinda invoke.
Jeremy (56:14):
So if, for everybody listening here, we would love if
you left a comment on YouTube orSpotify or dropped us an email
and let us know your favoriteshow and the specific job that
you hire it to do. And, bonuspoints if that show is this
show, and then we would then beeven more curious to know, what
the job, that this show does foryou. Yeah. As always, you can
find the full Podcast MarketingTrends report at
(56:37):
podcastmarketingtrends.com, andwe'll talk to you in the next
episode.
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