February 13, 2024 • 41 mins
Look closely at the data behind almost anything—from podcast growth, to Google search results, to Amazon product sales, and more—and you'll notice a trend.
In almost every case, the bulk of the rewards (downloads, clicks, sales) go to just a tiny percentage of the available options.
This pattern shows up everywhere, and it's known as the Power Law.
In this episode, we're breaking down the math behind the power curve as it relates to podcasting, whether you should actually be aiming to be at the peak of the curve, and how to set realistic and achievable goals related to your show.
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Topics Covered
00:00 Introduction
05:10 Understanding the Power Law Curve and it's impact on podcasting
14:25 Why you shouldn't settle for creating an "average" podcast… and strategies for stand-out
26:40 Unpacking the download data in the Podcast Marketing Trends 2023 Report
37:15 Aligning expectations and setting realistic goals
⭐️ Get a free podcast marketing audit with personalized recommendations to help you grow: https://podcastmarketingacademy.com/audit ⭐️
Resources
Complete the Podcast Marketing Trends 2024 Survey
Subscribe to Podcast Marketing Trends Explained
Check out the Podcast Marketing Trends 2023 Report
Subscribe to the Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter
Try Transistor.fm for free for 14 days
✍️ Leave your feedback for the show: http://podcastmarketingtrends.com/feedback
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy (00:02):
This is kind of the classic phenomenon
get richer, and everybody elseis really struggling to get
above that average mark. The top10% of our respondents were
getting consistently around10,000 downloads an episode or
more, whereas the bottom 90% ofepisodes are getting less than
10,000.
Justin (00:19):
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the media coverage focuses on the
top 10%; you know, the JoeRogans and all that. And the
truth is there's so much you cando in the bottom 90% of this
distribution that's still worthdoing.
Jeremy (00:36):
Welcome to Podcast Marketing Trends Explained. I'm
Jeremy Enns from PodcastMarketing Academy.
Justin (00:41):
And I'm Justin Jackson from Transistor.fm. And
together, we're digging into thedata behind the Podcast
Marketing Trends 2023 report tohelp you understand what it
means is for you and your show.
Jeremy (00:54):
Our goal is to help you make better informed decisions
about the way you create andmarket your show so you can
spend more time on what actuallymatters for growth and
accelerate your results.
Justin (01:03):
Let's get into it.
Jeremy (01:09):
So Justin, to kick off this series in episode 1, we
want to zoom out and take a lookat the kind of large lay of the
land when it comes to the showsthat submitted data for this
report. And, you know, downloadsare the thing that's on
everybody's mind. And to dothis, we're gonna look at, an
idea called the Power Law Curve,which, I'm not sure. Is this is
(01:29):
this something that you've comeacross before that you have any
idea what it is?
Justin (01:32):
Okay. I'm gonna give you an example that I have in my
mind that I think representsthis. If I search for something
on Google, my guess is that thetop results on that page get
most of the clicks. So if peopleare searching for "cabanas in
Mexico," my guess is whateverthe top three results are on
(01:53):
that page, my guess is they getmost of the website visitors. Is
it kinda like that?
Jeremy (01:59):
It is actually exactly like that. Okay. Wouldn't you
know it? And so I've actuallygot the data here from found in
Google itself from the Googlesearch results. We're getting
super meta here. So from thisblog post from Backlinko, they
mentioned a few data points herethat kind of demonstrate how the
Power Law Curve works. And sothey say that the number one
(02:20):
result in Google's organicsearch results tend to have an
average click through rate of27.6%. So the top one page and
if you think about this for asecond, you search in for
whatever your "cabanas inMexico," whatever your search
phrase is, and you notice thatlittle, like, that little of all
(02:44):
those gazillions of searchresults, the top one gets over a
quarter of all the clicks. Sothat is kind of the classic
example of the power law curvewhere in any kind of, like,
dataset, all especially online.This is a very... (it probably
happens out in the the wildtoo), but it's a very prevalent
phenomenon online.
The top few results, or in ourcase top shows, tend to get most
(03:07):
of the benefits, in this case,listeners and downloads.
Justin (03:10):
Got it. And so for podcasters, maybe thankfully,
there's only maybe 3 or4 million podcasts out there, so
not as much competition. Whatdoes this mean for podcasters?
What does the data say? What'sthe Power Law Curve for
podcasters?
Jeremy (03:27):
So okay. This is the one of the first charts that we have
here in the podcast marketingtrends report. And what we
found, this is kind of,reflective of some of the other
data that's come out inpodcasting. I think this dataset
in particular is more kind ofestablished podcasters who are
actively creating, it's notcounting a bunch of dead shows
like some of the the largerecosystem, research, sometimes
(03:49):
has. And so what we see here isthat the top 10% of our
respondents, these were theshows that were getting
consistently around 10,000downloads an episode or more,
whereas the bottom 90% ofepisodes, so almost all the
shows, we're getting less than10,000 downloads an episode, and
it kinda drops off pretty,precipitously after that.
And so our top entry here wasjust shy of 60,000 downloads an
(04:13):
episode. And the next one afterthat is around, you know, 47,000
, and then we go down to 30,000.And pretty quickly, we get down
to, you know, most of the showsare less than 10,000 downloads
an episode, and and really themajority of them are less than a
1000 downloads an episode. Andso, this is kind of the the
classic phenomenon when we'rethinking about the power law
curve is that the winners getricher, and, they keep on
(04:35):
winning, and the rest ofeverybody else is kind of, like,
really struggling to get abovethat average mark.
Justin (04:40):
Yeah. Yeah. And folks can check out this report
themselves by going topodcastmarketingtrends.com/2023
. And you really see, at the topend of this curve, there's just
a few people, and then as itgoes down; it goes down really
fast. And then the longdistribution of folks are in
that that lower range.
What what was the median, by theway? What's the median show
(05:03):
getting in terms of downloads?
Jeremy (05:05):
Yeah. So the median show or what we can think of as the
kind of the typical show herewas getting around 421 downloads
an episode, which, is a littlebit better than some of the
other industry data that's comeup before, which I think it
says, like, it's it's around 200and something, but, again,
that's counting a lot of showsthat aren't actually active or
might have only had 3 or 4episodes.
Justin (05:23):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you said the average was around
550 downloads?
Jeremy (05:27):
Something like that.
Justin (05:28):
So we're looking at a you know, the average show gets
about 500 downloads per episode.And one thing I think about when
I'm looking at this this charthere: each of the respondents on
this graph has a story. It'seasy to just look at this as
general data, but each of therespondents have a whole history
(05:51):
of things they've done. Some arefamous. Some are not famous.
Some are in this niche. Othersare in this niche. Some are
trying to get advertisers.Others are just really happy to
have 50 people listening totheir show. And so there is just
an abundance of human beings andstories and expectations behind
(06:12):
these numbers that we don't see.Right?
Jeremy (06:14):
Yeah.
Justin (06:15):
And the truth is that each of the folks listening
right now, they have their ownstory. They're trying to
accomplish something in theirlives too with their podcast.
And so, yeah, it'll beinteresting to contextualize
this for them and give the folkslistening some real actionable
takeaways from this data.
Jeremy (06:33):
Yeah. And to that point, I would imagine that many of the
people listening to this showactually filled out the survey,
and their show is one of thesedata points. And I I imagine
that it's no surprise that, youknow, given the fact that we
kind of teamed up to create thisreport and promoted it, that
we're also gonna be promotingthis podcast based on the same
thing. And so what would you sayto somebody who their data point
(06:55):
is actually on that graph rightnow? What do they look at this
chart and and how do they makesense better?
How would you approached that interms of : "What do I do with
this as a creator?"
Justin (07:05):
You and I talk a lot about expectations. When you're
making something, what are yourexpectations for it? It's
interesting to think aboutpodcasting in relation to other
mediums. Like, you've been inbands. And if you show up at a
bar, how many people does therehave to be in the audience to
make you happy? Is it 20... 30?
Jeremy (07:26):
Yeah. I remember shows I would say probably the typical
show had 30 to 50 people, so Iplayed in, like, hardcore, like,
punk and metal bands, in andafter high school and like yeah.
I lived in a small city inSaskatoon, Canada. It's about a
200,000 person city. That's nota huge scene there.
And so showing up andfortunately, it was a small
space a lot of times. So I'dlike it felt, you know, pretty
lively, pretty packed. And,yeah, you're just happy to,
(07:48):
like, play your music and havepeople there who were enjoying
it. And so a lot of times, like,yeah, I've done plenty of
creative pursuits where 30people was a great day out.
Justin (07:57):
Yeah. And I mean, even just think, like, if you put up
a bunch of posters and said,hey. I'm gonna be giving a 1
hour monologue at the library onTuesday at 6 PM. If 10 people
showed up, I think you would beecstatic. So contextualizing
these numbers, having anaudience that's interested in
anything you have to say isalready a win. If more than two
(08:21):
people show up, that's alreadypretty incredible if you think
about it.
But A lot of this will depend onwhat job is this podcasting
doing for you in your life. Isthis podcast to help you get
more business? Is this podcastto help you grow an audience? Is
this podcast to help you quicklymake a bunch of money?
(08:44):
You know, if your expectationsare going to podcasting and
you've got that perfect idea fora show that's gonna instantly
get you All sorts of advertisingdollars. Maybe the lesson is
that your expectations need tobe realigned.
Jeremy (09:00):
Yeah. So I love this conversation about expectations,
and this is something that,really from when I I first
started my podcast productionagency, I initially made the
mistake early on of not settingexpectations with clients. And
then as podcasting got harderand harder, it became this
necessary thing where I didn'twanna be, like, kind of doing a
bait and switch where, like,they thought they would start
their show and they'd have, youknow, 50,000 downloads an
(09:22):
episode within 3 months.
And so I would say to them,like, okay. If you're gonna do
this, I can help you produce agreat show. No matter how great
a show we create, likely, you'regonna have to stick at this for
3, 5 years before this reallystarts to pay off. And, you you
know, you're gonna see somegrowth over that span, but it's
not gonna be, like, right out ofthe gate, you're getting these
amazing results.
(09:42):
And actually, like, on thatnote, I remember one of my early
clients, this was probably inthe 1st year I was editing and
producing podcast. There's aguest on one of his shows, and
he had this quote that has stuckwith me for for years. I think
about it on a weekly basis,basically, at this point.
And there was something alongthe lines of: "The root of all
unhappiness is misalignedexpectations." And I heard this
(10:02):
quote in the moment. It's justthis, like, thunderbolt moment.
And I started thinking about,like, all the things that I
might have been unhappy about atsome point in my life. And I was
like, yeah, that was a 100%.Like, I expected something else
to happen than what I got, and Iwas unhappy about it.
And I just think it's such aprofound thought: that we all as
creators, I think we need toaccept it. And we are given
(10:22):
plenty of opportunities to beforced to accept that along the
way to to growth and success.
Justin (10:28):
Yeah. And and maybe that initial energy and inspiration,
like, when you get struck withan idea for a show and like,
"I'm gonna make this podcast.This is gonna be amazing. It's
gonna be so good." To keep thatenergy because you need it to
get started. Otherwise, you'dnever make anything.
But then to moderate it with aconversation, maybe with
(10:51):
yourself and your cohost orwhoever is making the show about
expectations (10:55):
"Okay. Let's be realistic here. This is about
people who do..." Wait, what do you call
it when you go to Comic Con andyou dress up?
Jeremy (11:03):
Cosplay.
Justin (11:04):
This podcast is for people who do cosplay but with
their pets. You know, it's likea very small niche. What is are
a realistic expectation for theshow. And often, you won't know
until you've released 1 episodeand then 2 episodes and then 10,
and then maybe a 100 episodes.And the truth about podcasting
(11:25):
and really any creative endeavoris it can take time.
But to modify your expectations,keep that inspiration so that
you actually do the show, butmodify your expectations. Be
realistic about what you'remaking and what you can expect
in terms of downloads.
Jeremy (11:41):
Yeah. So I wanna bring in another data point here that
we we asked people who wentthrough the survey, like, what
is the primary goal for yourshow? Like, why are you doing
this in the first place? And Oh,that's interesting. People told
us was only 16% of people fromthis audience in particular
might not be representative ofall of podcasting.
16% of people were doing this asa strictly as a hobby. And there
(12:03):
were some other types ofreasoning in there, but I would
say most of the other reasons inthere, other there's 1, 6% was
to educate people, and it seemedlike that was separate from a
business. So we could maybe saythat, like, 22% of people were
doing their shows not for anybusiness purpose, but the
remaining, you know, 4 5ths ofthe audience, almost 80%, was
(12:26):
had some kind of businessintention around it. And so it
could be to build an audience,which I assume people wanna do
because they wanna monetize itin some way, it could be to grow
their personal brand andauthority. Those 2 were were
number 1.
Actually, they were tied fornumber 1. And then there's a
bunch of other stuff in terms ofconverting clients, growing
their network, increasing brandaffinity, increasing brand
awareness. And so it seems likethis set of podcasters is very
(12:49):
much thinking about, like, okay.I want my show to serve my
business in some way, whichultimately, if we take that all
the way to the end, it'sprobably like there's some kind
of monetization or revenue atsome point. So when we're
thinking about it in thatcontext where most of the people
here do want to monetize, whatdo they do with this data here
where, like, okay, the vastmajority of people are less than
a 1000 downloads an episode.
(13:11):
Is that realistic? How shouldthey set their expectations
around that?
Justin (13:14):
Yeah. It really depends, doesn't it? It depends on what
they so, for example, if wecould give an example of a top
10% show. One show on Transistorthat I know is a top 10% show is
this show called the mindsetmile. And I love the the premise
of the show.
It's we'll help you build betterhabits by making a small mindset
(13:35):
shift and walking or running amile a day for 30 days. So the
premise is, hey. Do you wannaget out and get some exercise
every day? Yes. Do you need someinspiration?
Do you want to improve yourmindset? Yes. Well, we are using
the podcast as a deliverymechanism to get you outside
(13:56):
every day, improve your mindset,And that promise is so
compelling and so unique. Youcan see, oh, I could see a lot
of people wanting that show. Shereleased it right around New
Year's when people are, youknow, have New Year's
resolutions.
And so that show has done verywell with that premise. And she
(14:17):
monetizes it different ways,advertising, her own courses,
things like that. An example ofa show at the bottom 90% where
the folks are still really happyto be doing the show is we have
a number of real estatebusinesses on Transistor, and,
you know, they get a 150downloads per episode, and
(14:37):
they'll email me and they'llsay, this show is killing it.
It's getting us so many leads.It's like the best business
decision we made.
We're so happy we're doing it.And, you know, for some people,
a 150 downloads would be a hugedisappointment, but for them,
it's perfect because it'sachieving what they want the
show to do for them. So that's 2things I think of is
(15:01):
contextualizing it going, oh,yeah. Okay. This is what a 90 a
top 10% show looks like.
This is what an bottom 90% showlooks like.
Jeremy (15:08):
Yeah. So I love that point. And I think the other
thing that this makes me thinkof is that assuming the majority
of people listening to this andcertainly, the majority of
people who completed the survey,they wanted their show to serve
their business in some way or tocreate a business around their
show. What that essentiallymeans is you need to understand
what is the business model thatI am pursuing here. Mhmm.
(15:30):
And that is going to dictate tosome extent how you should
construct your show. And so ifyou are pursuing what would be
thought of as a publishingbusiness model, which is
essentially, like, I'm going tocreate an asset that has a lot
of eyeballs or ear holes on it,and people will want to
advertise on that platform thatI have built. So the job that
I'm doing for other people isbuilding a collection of people
(15:52):
that these advertisers wannareach. This is there's even some
nuance here whereas if you'resaying like, okay. I want to get
sponsors like HelloFresh okay.
Well, they wanna work with showsthat have a large audience
already. They're trying to gofor mass appeal. It's a generic
kind of product. And so theyjust want as many people as
possible to hear it. And so ifthat's the goal that you want,
which you may have your reasonsfor wanting that, that's totally
(16:13):
fine.
And there are are, I will say,compelling reasons to pursue
other business models as welland other varieties of the
publishing business model. Butlet's just say that's year dream
is to get HelloFresh advertisingon your podcast and MeUndies and
Casper mattresses and all ofthe, you know, the ones that
we're all sick of hearing aboutso far. Although we love them as
sponsors, of course, you have aa certain kind of job set up for
(16:34):
yourself where it's like, okay,I need to get tens of thousands
of people listening to the show.And so now I know, okay, if I
need to get tens of thousands ofpeople listen to a show, what
type of show do tens ofthousands of people listen to?
And it's not every show.
There are certain formats thatare more likely to to have
higher listenership. We're gonnalook into some of those things
on future episodes. There arecertain topics, and so you
(16:54):
brought up the the idea of thethe Mindset Mile Show. And this
is a show that has very broadappeal. It is not niche, one one
makes it successful is that ithas a really unique format that
sure somebody could copy it, butbecause she's already done it,
it's kind of this likeintellectual property where it's
like, as soon as somebody elsecopies it, it's like, yeah.
I mean, she did it first. And sounless you've done it way better
(17:15):
or added some additional wrinkleon, probably, you're gonna have
a tough time kind of knockingher off her her perch or or
replicating her results. Yeah.And so I think that, like, when
you're aiming, your yourbusiness model will dictate the
show you need to create, andthen you can say, like, okay. Do
I wanna create a show like that?
And if you say no, then you cansay, like, okay. Well, are there
other business models that mightbetter align with what I wanna
(17:37):
create, and that's where you getinto, you know, real estate and
things like that, where maybeyou have a a high ticket,
product or service or somethinglike that. I've had clients who
are coaches. I had one client.She had, a show.
I think she had, like, 250downloads an episode, 300
downloads an episode, email listof, like, 300 people or
something like that. And she hada $300,000 launch based on this
tiny little audience. And it'slike, she had a high ticket
(17:58):
product. Her people loved her,and they, like, bought up
everything that she had to sellevery single time. And so this
is, I think, one of these ideaswhere it's like, okay.
What do I wanna get out of theshow? And and maybe what do I
need the show to do for me froma kind of sustenance perspective
in terms of finances? And thenhow do I kind of play with both
of those to kind of align themsomewhere in the middle.
Justin (18:19):
And you know what else this makes me think of is it
would be like if I said, hey,Jeremy. I wanna play basketball.
And you're like, oh, that soundsgreat. Like, some pickup games,
and I go, no. No.
No. No. I wanna play in the NBA.And I think your response would
be, Okay. Well, Justin, first ofall, do you realize how
competitive it is to get intothe NBA?
(18:40):
And second of all, you know,you're 5 foot 8. For me to get
into NBA, if I wanted to dothat, I would need to compete at
that level. And the same is truein podcasting. When you look at
this chart, There's not muchspace in the top 10%. The reason
there's less shows is that noteverybody can be in the top 10%.
There's only so many podcastlisteners. Those podcast
(19:03):
listeners only have so muchtime. And be realistic. Look at
your own podcast queue. Thereare tons and tons of unlistened
episodes in there.
You don't have enough time toget to all the episodes. So if
you're gonna compete in thatsphere, you gotta be ready. You
gotta be ready to competeagainst the big players, and
(19:25):
that means you're gonna have tomaybe take some of their
audience. How are you gonna dothat? Like, if that's where you
wanna compete, then be ready.
That's where you're going.Right? Whereas you can look at
the bottom 90%. It could okay.Well, what opportunities are
there here.
You know? We did a show when wewere starting Transistor, which
was just the story of usbuilding the product. Every day,
(19:49):
we've just every week, sorry, wewould just have a new report on
our struggles and the thingswe'd accomplished and what was
difficult. And There were agroup of people who were
interested in that journey, andthey came with us and we got,
you know, an average of maybe3,000 downloads per episode. And
that was perfect for us.
That accomplished what weneeded. We had all these fans
(20:12):
that were willing to help us. Wehad people supporting the show
on Patreon, And then many ofthose people became customers
and then also recommended us toothers because they were
invested in our story. Sothere's lots and lots of
opportunity in the bottom 90%. Alot of the media coverage
focuses on the top 10%, youknow, the Joe Rogans and all
(20:34):
that.
And the truth is is there's somuch you can do in the bottom
90% of this distribution that'sstill worth doing.
Jeremy (20:43):
Yeah. I I would say that if you were to look at, not
based on percentages, but just,like, total absolute number of
shows that were attached to 6 or7 or 8 figure businesses, the
vast majority of them wouldn'thave crazy download numbers. No.
You you get talking with a lotof people and it's like they
have small shows. They're kindof like, you know, less than
10000 downloads an episode,maybe 1 to 5 somewhere, who are
(21:04):
just doing incredible thingswith their businesses.
And I think what that speaks tofor me is that they know role
that their show plays in theirbusiness, and they focus on
that, and they don't try to asktheir show to do all these other
things. It's not trying to bethe top of their funnel and the
middle of their funnel and thebottom of their funnel and
trying to, like, both getattention and also, like,
convert people into clients andcustomers. The this client that
I mentioned before, her show,she basically created it
(21:27):
entirely to serve her existingcustomers at her lower tier
products and to just, like,spend more time with them. And
that was the the result. She hadkind of a membership community
at the time.
And she just made this podcastfor her membership community
almost as, like, an add on. And,like, people could find it, you
know, publicly and people did.But, really, she was like, I'm
just gonna use this to createbonus extra content, answer
questions that are coming up inmy community. And as a result,
(21:49):
like, they just grew closer andcloser and closer to her. And so
when she came up with this muchhigher ticket offer, they're
already a 100% sold on it basedon these previous months or, you
know, year or something likethat of time that they spent
with her.
Justin (22:01):
Yeah. I think we also need to have realistic
expectations about the medium ofpodcasting itself. I love this
idea. There's 2 types ofplatforms or channels, there are
discovery platforms, and thereare relationship platforms.
Jeremy (22:18):
So that are to a friend friend of the show, Jay Klaus
here, perhaps?
Justin (22:22):
Jay yes. Jay Clouse, I believe is the first person I
heard talking about this. Youknow, YouTube, TikTok, Google.
Those are discovery platforms.People all day are discovering
new content, new creators, newbusinesses.
But podcasting, emailnewsletters, blog posts, these
(22:42):
are formats that deepen arelationship with an audience.
And so if you're starting withno audience, maybe podcasting
isn't the right medium for you.It might still be worth trying
it out, and there areopportunities we're gonna talk
about further in the series, butbe realistic about what
podcasting is gonna get for you.If you're used to seeing other
(23:03):
creators on TikTok get 3,000,000views per TikTok well, you're
not gonna get that inpodcasting. It's different.
You know, we have these are longformat pieces of content, And
it's a relationship buildingplatform primarily, not a
discovery platform.
Jeremy (23:19):
Yeah. And I think the the add on to that to think
about that isn't always obviousearly on. The more time you
spend on these variousplatforms, the more you realize,
like, every platform has a biastowards something. Like, it is
designed to get people to take acertain action on that platform,
and sometimes these areaccidental. I don't know that
people when Adam Curry developedpodcasting and all of this,
(23:41):
like, I don't think he said,like, I want this to be really
hard for people to be able to,like, find new shows and all
these things.
That wasn't, like, intentionallybuilt in, but there are some
limitations of the platform thatmake it difficult for people to
find new shows, to sample newshows. I think about this all
the time, like, all the frictionthat if you're posting about
your show on social media, forsomebody to actually get through
(24:03):
an episode, and and I mean, wecan even, like, go way before
that. Just listened to the firsttwo minutes of an episode. Then
they're in, like, 30 secondmode. I mean, not even 30 second
mode.
You look at some peoplescrolling through Instagram, and
it's just, like, half a secondper post, people are not in a,
like, I'm gonna considerspending the next 45 minutes
potentially listening to theshow right now. They're like,
onto the next thing, onto thenext thing. And so you have to
(24:25):
get people. You have to be socompelling to break that cycle,
that mode that Instagram haskind of instilled in them, and
get them to pause. Beinteresting enough to get them
to click through to the showaway from the platform.
Yeah. And then they gotta, like,look through your episode titles
and see, like, is there anythinghere that interests me that
really grabs my attention? Andthen, you know, click play on an
episode and listen through.Like, this there's a lot of
(24:45):
friction in getting a newpodcast listener, and I think
that that's not something peoplereally think about. And there's
there's things you can do to getaround that and mitigate that,
but it helps to know, like, whatare we up against as podcasters
and what can we expect of thisthis medium.
Justin (24:59):
Totally. The other thing that made me think of is when I
look at this chart, there's justa big group of people that are
in the sub a 1000 downloadsgroup. Yep. The average
podcaster is getting 400 to 500downloads, at least in this
survey set. Yep.
The other thing it makes methink of is, okay. Well, how
(25:21):
could I be above average? Yeah.If most shows are average And
there's all this kinda noise andcompetition. What are some
things that I could do to bebetter than just okay?
There's just a lot of shows thatare just like, that's okay.
Would you listen again? Probablynot. It's like, okay. Well, what
can you do?
That's the opportunity. What canyou do to be so compelling from
(25:46):
the very beginning, like, fromthe moment they first hear about
the podcast to then going andchecking it out on Spotify, what
can you do in your packaging?What can you do in your
description, your title, yourtrailer? What can you do in the
little video clips you'reposting? What can you do in
terms of the structure of theshow, how interesting it is,
microphone technique?
(26:07):
You know, there's so manydynamics that you could leverage
to make your show above average.And that's the part that kind of
gets me fired up. It's like,okay. Wow. Look at the crowd.
The crowd is right here. Whatcould I do to rise above the
noise? What can I do to be thestandout show in my niche, in my
(26:27):
genre, in my format, and there'sa lot of opportunity there
because I think most shows arejust okay? Yeah.
Jeremy (26:35):
And I think, like, that's something that I think a
lot of people in podcastingwouldn't really say out loud,
but I think we could alsoprobably universally agree that
if you were to just get arandomly generated podcast of
the several million that existright now, and you just click
play on that, there is a betterthan likely chance that you
probably would not stick throughlistening with that show very
long, even if you were maybeinterested in that topic or open
(26:55):
to it. And so I really like thatthat idea, I think that in in
everything, like, yeah, it'sit's one thing to say, like,
this is what the average show isdoing, but it's also another
thing to say, like, okay, if theaverage show is doing this,
that's my, like, bottom,baseline of where I wanna be.
And so I need to look at, like,what are these other shows here,
and how can I be a little bitbetter than that?
And I think the the thing thatyou mentioned there about, you
know, being the standout show inyour niche or in your industry,
(27:19):
I think that's a much morereasonable goal to have, I think
if you look at, like, okay, I'mlooking at this whole dataset.
There's 500 shows here and thisthe top one has, you know,
60,000 downloads an episode. Andhere, I'm at a 120 downloads an
episode. Like, I don't even knowhow I get from here to there.
But if you say, okay, there's 10shows in my niche. Maybe only
like 5 of those are activelyproducing episodes right now.
(27:40):
I feel like most shows, if theyset the goal for themselves
within 6 months to a year, couldprobably objectively create the
best show in their space. And Ithink that's, like, a really
great goal to have because youcan, like it's a small enough
dataset that you can actuallylisten to the other shows. You
can say, like, oh, this is kindof interesting about that show,
but, you know, it doesn't dothis, which I really wish it did
or, you know, they're focusedmore on this side of things. I
(28:00):
don't like the tone of this one,whatever. And you can kinda say
like, okay.
I see where I can be better thansome of these other shows and
where I can be different in acompelling way than the other
shows. It's not always aboutjust being the absolute best
because that's gonna besubjective to your listeners.
But a lot of times, like,picking the small pool, doing a
a bit of research, and saying,like, okay. Like, what can I do
a little bit better than allthese other shows that would
(28:21):
make my show somebody in thisspace is like their absolute
favorite show?
Justin (28:26):
That's right. And that point of view is so important.
If if you're just starting acomedy podcast because you think
you're funny and that's it,that's not enough. You gotta go
out and listen to 10 comedypodcasts and see what you're up
against. And if while you'relistening to those shows, You're
listening with a critical earand it's firing you up.
(28:47):
You're like, you know what? I'mfunnier than these people. I
really am. I I know what I coulddo to make my show more
compelling. These folks aretheir intro is too long.
There's too many ads, and theirmicrophone technique is off. I I
can't hear it. It's like you'vegot a list now that should fire
you up about the things you'regonna do to stand out from the
(29:08):
crowd, the things you're gonnado to be above average.
Jeremy (29:12):
And the you know, the I think there's a lot of
opportunities there. I thinkwhat I've seen a lot, from a lot
of shows that I've worked withand as well as newer shows that
are coming into spaces and andthey're competing with these
bigger shows that have beenaround a while is that a lot of
times, some of the big shows,they built big audiences based
on being early to the game. AndMhmm. Not because their show is
particularly good. And so Ithink there is a ton of
(29:35):
opportunity.
We see this in every, you know,industry. There's this natural
cycle where, you know, techcompanies or shows or whatever
it is, like, anything that growsbig, it accumulates all this
kind of, like, we would say insoftware, tech debt I say we
even though I'm not even insoftware, but I just spend so
much time, like, in that world.Yeah. But there's all these
things that actually end upholding you back where it's like
Yeah. You built something intoyour framework that was built
(29:55):
around a certain era or wherelistener expectations were
different, and now that'schanged and it's really hard for
you to adapt.
And so newer shows often have amuch easier time by kind of
tapping into what people aredoing now and what listeners are
wanting right now, what'spopular and being able to kind
of really shoot past a lot ofthose other shows.
Justin (30:12):
Yeah. Totally. So as we're closing out this episode,
what are some actionabletakeaways we can give the
listener who's listening rightnow. They're doing the dishes or
walking the dog or whatever. Andthey're like, okay.
This is great. I they're they'rebut give me something to do.
What are some things people cango away from this episode and do
to help grow their show? So I
Jeremy (30:33):
think the first thing for me is on that idea of
aligning expectations and justhaving a look at okay.
Regardless of where my show isright now, if I'm getting 10,000
downloads an episode or I'mgetting a 100 downloads an
episode, like, what do I expectfor my show? What do I need it
to do for it to be for me toconsider it a success? And
that's gonna be different foreveryone that might be growing
to a astronomical amount ofdownloads or that might be, you
(30:55):
know, creating one of these realestate shows where they got a
150 downloads an episode, and itjust brings in clients. And it's
like, hey.
This is the best thing we'veever done with our marketing.
And so I think getting tounderstand what you want to get
out of this show, and then Iwould say, do some research. And
can you find examples of othershows that are similar to yours?
They don't need to be identicalto the show that you're doing.
Hopefully, they're not.
But, like, can you find examplesof other shows that have done
(31:18):
what you wanna do. And so Ioften think about this in in how
I work with people as demandvalidation. And so it's looking
out and saying, like, is thereaudience demand and interest in
my topic that I can objectivelykind of see, like, okay, there
are other shows that have gotthis many downloads or they
build their audiences onInstagram or email list whatever
it might be, YouTube channelsthat have grown to the level
(31:39):
that I want for my show. And ifso, that's great. You can say,
like, okay, there's clearlyaudience interest in my topic.
I can find a way to tap intothat. And if you can't find
that, then and you do a bunch ofresearch, that might be a sign
that, like, okay, myexpectations might be misaligned
here. And if you find that out,then you kind of have a choice
to make. You're like, okay, do Ijust like creating this show
(32:01):
enough that I'm gonna say, like,okay. I thought I could get this
many downloads, but actually,maybe this is more realistic.
So am I okay with that? Yes.Great. I'm gonna keep doing the
show because I love doing Yeah.Or there's a lot of people and
I'm in this camp too, where Imight say, like, actually, I've
got, like, 37 podcast ideas andthis was just one of them.
And I actually have some otherideas that I think have a higher
ceiling on them that are goingto give me a better shot at
(32:23):
hitting that goal in particular.
Justin (32:25):
Mhmm.
Jeremy (32:25):
And so maybe I would be better moving on from this show
and starting up something thathas a bit more potential that I
can see, you know, there is an apath forward for me to reach
that goal that I have. So Yeah.That would be my kind of, like,
takeaway of, like, as you'relooking at the numbers, thinking
about where you're at, what oneof the next steps might be, and
just to see where you stack up.
Justin (32:41):
Yeah. What about on your side? What's some some
actionable steps that people cantake?
You know what that just made methink of is people can run this
experiment themselves. It wouldbe a little bit of work, but I
think it would be fascinating.Is On on Transistor, you can
start multiple shows on onepayment plan. And what I would
do is if I have multiple ideas,I would record a trailer episode
(33:01):
for each one. So I've got 5ideas, trailer episode for each
one, submit it to ApplePodcasts, Spotify, all the
players, all the discoverymechanisms, and just see what
happens.
Because maybe there's enoughsearch intent there. Maybe
there's enough interest thatpeople would just find your show
(33:23):
based on the keywords, or thetopic. Or maybe, you know, post
the link in one forum thatyou're interested in, a group of
people that you're like, oh, Iknow they're into the show. See
what the response is. And youcould even be honest.
Like, hey. I'm consideringmultiple show formats. Here's
one I'm excited about that Ithought you might be excited
about. I'm just posting in thisFacebook group to see what you
(33:45):
guys think. Would you listen toa show like this?
And just see what kind ofresponse you get. Put something
out there, actually do the work,release something, and then see
what happens. And maybe whatcomes back is, oh, wow. This
feels So much of this is basedon feel. This feels like the
kind of show that if I worked atit might get a 1,000 downloads
(34:07):
or 2,000 downloads.
So that'd be an interestingexperiment, I think, to run is
just to and you could do this ina smaller way. You could just
record a bunch of audio filesand just send it to friends And
just get their responses like,hey. I know you're super into
soccer. I just recorded thistrailer. Would you listen to
this podcast?
Hey. Here's a idea for a realestate show for the company.
(34:29):
Send it to your boss and say,what do you think about this
this idea? And just see whattheir response is. I think it's
it's really helpful to actuallydo something, put it out into
the wild, And see how peoplerespond before fully committing
to, I'm gonna do this show everyweek for the rest of my life.
This is like, okay. Slow down.Just why don't you try recording
(34:51):
a trailer episode first, puttingthat out and see how it feels?
Jeremy (34:55):
I love that. And, if you I think we actually had a
previous discussion another timeabout if you were a little bit
more, marketing savvy, you canalso do this with a pretty small
budget on Facebook ads. You cando, like, a $5 ad spend, and you
could split test cover art,landing pages, trailers, things
like that, which, if you wannago down into the the marketing
weeds, that's, certainly anoption that's available to you
Justin (35:17):
as well. Well, you know, another thing is Just do it as a
TikTok series or a real seriesto say, hey. My name's Justin,
and I'm considering 5 topics forpodcasts. Here's one of them.
And then you just do thetrailer.
And, you know, those algorithms,because their discovery
platforms, are really good atpicking up what people are
interested in. And so you coulddo 5 TikToks or 5 reels or 5
(35:41):
YouTube shorts and just see whatpeople pick up on. You've been
really intentional that youwanna make it a podcast, And
then you're gonna get all sortsof comments and, you know,
views, real life examples ofwhether people are compelled to
Listen. Right?
Jeremy (35:57):
I love that. So, I got the sense that that was not
actually gonna be your originaltakeaway. That is a fantastic
and super actionable takeaway.But did you have something else
in mind for looking at this thisidea of the power law and the
distribution of shows? Whatshould people do with that?
Justin (36:10):
One thing's been that's been really helpful for me is to
find some podcasting buddies.Get a group of people, a cohort,
a gang of people that are alsotrying to make shows. And in the
back channels, you can comparenumbers. And just having other
people who are doing somethingsimilar to me, show me how many
(36:31):
downloads they're getting andthen being able to interact with
them, like, what worked, whatdidn't work, how did you do
this, has been so helpful. And Ithink you can find these people
all over.
You can go to meetup groups. Ifa meetup group doesn't exist in
your town, you can start oneeither for podcasters or for
podcasters in your niche, go toconferences, start a Slack
(36:54):
group, start a Discord group,start a Telegram group, reach
out to people on Facebook orTwitter or whatever and say,
hey. It looks like you and I aretrying to do something similar.
I'm starting a little group.We're gonna meet once a week And
just talk about how we canimprove our show.
Having just a group of peoplethat you can share that
experience with makes such adifference. And to me, actually,
(37:18):
there's so so many numbers thatpeople won't talk about in
public, but they will in a smallgroup, find some podcasting
friends.
Jeremy (37:25):
Yeah. I love that. So I think that is wrapping up our
first episode here, but I feellike before we we close things
out, I would love to get somekind of, like, listener
interaction engagement going on.And the ideas on what we might
be able to do to, to be able tohelp some people out in a more
kind of, personal way.
Justin (37:44):
I mean, one thing that we've done in the past that I
think would be really cool hereis give people the opportunity
to submit their show that wecould then review on air and
just go, okay. Here's a show,and we'll just give practical
tips on how we would grow thatshow. I think that'd be a good
idea. And maybe people couldsubmit it in a review. They
(38:05):
could just leave us a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify and
just say, hey.
Love the podcast. Please reviewmy show and then just give us
the name of your show. And thenmaybe let's also put a link in
the show notes. We'll create aform that says, submit your
show, click on that, and, we'llpick those up there too. And
maybe we'll just focus on 1 perepisode.
Jeremy (38:25):
I love that. And, you know, part of the whole reason
for this report to exist andthis podcast to exist is
actually, you know, helpingpeople understand how to market
their shows better, how to growthem better. And so this feels,
you know, super in line withthat that kind of goal that
we've, stated as coming intothis.
Justin (38:40):
Yeah. You know what else? I'm also gonna put a
feedback link in our show notesbecause so often when I'm
listening to a show, I justwanna say something. And I think
it'd be cool if we had a littlevoice mailbox or something like
that
Jeremy (38:52):
Mhmm.
Justin (38:53):
Where people could just leave their thoughts, written
video, audio, whatever, becausewe wanna improve the show. We
wanna make it more helpful forpeople. We wanna know you're
thinking, we want this to be atwo way conversation. So submit
your show. We may choose toreview it on there.
And if you have feedback,thoughts, click the link in the
description, and we'll pickthose up too.
Jeremy (39:15):
Perfect. Would love to hear from you as a listener of
the show, and we will see you inthe next episode. And in the
meantime, you can check out thefull report, which this episode
and all the others are based onat podcastmarketingtrends.com/
2023. Justin, this has been ablast as always. Looking forward
to chatting with you again inthe next episode.
Justin (39:36):
Yeah. We'll see you then.
This is kind of the classic phenomenon
get richer, and everybody elseis really struggling to get
above that average mark. The top10% of our respondents were
getting consistently around10,000 downloads an episode or
more, whereas the bottom 90% ofepisodes are getting less than
10,000.
Justin (00:19):
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the media coverage focuses on the
top 10%; you know, the JoeRogans and all that. And the
truth is there's so much you cando in the bottom 90% of this
distribution that's still worthdoing.
Jeremy (00:36):
Welcome to Podcast Marketing Trends Explained. I'm
Jeremy Enns from PodcastMarketing Academy.
Justin (00:41):
And I'm Justin Jackson from Transistor.fm. And
together, we're digging into thedata behind the Podcast
Marketing Trends 2023 report tohelp you understand what it
means is for you and your show.
Jeremy (00:54):
Our goal is to help you make better informed decisions
about the way you create andmarket your show so you can
spend more time on what actuallymatters for growth and
accelerate your results.
Justin (01:03):
Let's get into it.
Jeremy (01:09):
So Justin, to kick off this series in episode 1, we
want to zoom out and take a lookat the kind of large lay of the
land when it comes to the showsthat submitted data for this
report. And, you know, downloadsare the thing that's on
everybody's mind. And to dothis, we're gonna look at, an
idea called the Power Law Curve,which, I'm not sure. Is this is
(01:29):
this something that you've comeacross before that you have any
idea what it is?
Justin (01:32):
Okay. I'm gonna give you an example that I have in my
mind that I think representsthis. If I search for something
on Google, my guess is that thetop results on that page get
most of the clicks. So if peopleare searching for "cabanas in
Mexico," my guess is whateverthe top three results are on
(01:53):
that page, my guess is they getmost of the website visitors. Is
it kinda like that?
Jeremy (01:59):
It is actually exactly like that. Okay. Wouldn't you
know it? And so I've actuallygot the data here from found in
Google itself from the Googlesearch results. We're getting
super meta here. So from thisblog post from Backlinko, they
mentioned a few data points herethat kind of demonstrate how the
Power Law Curve works. And sothey say that the number one
(02:20):
result in Google's organicsearch results tend to have an
average click through rate of27.6%. So the top one page and
if you think about this for asecond, you search in for
whatever your "cabanas inMexico," whatever your search
phrase is, and you notice thatlittle, like, that little of all
(02:44):
those gazillions of searchresults, the top one gets over a
quarter of all the clicks. Sothat is kind of the classic
example of the power law curvewhere in any kind of, like,
dataset, all especially online.This is a very... (it probably
happens out in the the wildtoo), but it's a very prevalent
phenomenon online.
The top few results, or in ourcase top shows, tend to get most
(03:07):
of the benefits, in this case,listeners and downloads.
Justin (03:10):
Got it. And so for podcasters, maybe thankfully,
there's only maybe 3 or4 million podcasts out there, so
not as much competition. Whatdoes this mean for podcasters?
What does the data say? What'sthe Power Law Curve for
podcasters?
Jeremy (03:27):
So okay. This is the one of the first charts that we have
here in the podcast marketingtrends report. And what we
found, this is kind of,reflective of some of the other
data that's come out inpodcasting. I think this dataset
in particular is more kind ofestablished podcasters who are
actively creating, it's notcounting a bunch of dead shows
like some of the the largerecosystem, research, sometimes
(03:49):
has. And so what we see here isthat the top 10% of our
respondents, these were theshows that were getting
consistently around 10,000downloads an episode or more,
whereas the bottom 90% ofepisodes, so almost all the
shows, we're getting less than10,000 downloads an episode, and
it kinda drops off pretty,precipitously after that.
And so our top entry here wasjust shy of 60,000 downloads an
(04:13):
episode. And the next one afterthat is around, you know, 47,000
, and then we go down to 30,000.And pretty quickly, we get down
to, you know, most of the showsare less than 10,000 downloads
an episode, and and really themajority of them are less than a
1000 downloads an episode. Andso, this is kind of the the
classic phenomenon when we'rethinking about the power law
curve is that the winners getricher, and, they keep on
(04:35):
winning, and the rest ofeverybody else is kind of, like,
really struggling to get abovethat average mark.
Justin (04:40):
Yeah. Yeah. And folks can check out this report
themselves by going topodcastmarketingtrends.com/2023
. And you really see, at the topend of this curve, there's just
a few people, and then as itgoes down; it goes down really
fast. And then the longdistribution of folks are in
that that lower range.
What what was the median, by theway? What's the median show
(05:03):
getting in terms of downloads?
Jeremy (05:05):
Yeah. So the median show or what we can think of as the
kind of the typical show herewas getting around 421 downloads
an episode, which, is a littlebit better than some of the
other industry data that's comeup before, which I think it
says, like, it's it's around 200and something, but, again,
that's counting a lot of showsthat aren't actually active or
might have only had 3 or 4episodes.
Justin (05:23):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you said the average was around
550 downloads?
Jeremy (05:27):
Something like that.
Justin (05:28):
So we're looking at a you know, the average show gets
about 500 downloads per episode.And one thing I think about when
I'm looking at this this charthere: each of the respondents on
this graph has a story. It'seasy to just look at this as
general data, but each of therespondents have a whole history
(05:51):
of things they've done. Some arefamous. Some are not famous.
Some are in this niche. Othersare in this niche. Some are
trying to get advertisers.Others are just really happy to
have 50 people listening totheir show. And so there is just
an abundance of human beings andstories and expectations behind
(06:12):
these numbers that we don't see.Right?
Jeremy (06:14):
Yeah.
Justin (06:15):
And the truth is that each of the folks listening
right now, they have their ownstory. They're trying to
accomplish something in theirlives too with their podcast.
And so, yeah, it'll beinteresting to contextualize
this for them and give the folkslistening some real actionable
takeaways from this data.
Jeremy (06:33):
Yeah. And to that point, I would imagine that many of the
people listening to this showactually filled out the survey,
and their show is one of thesedata points. And I I imagine
that it's no surprise that, youknow, given the fact that we
kind of teamed up to create thisreport and promoted it, that
we're also gonna be promotingthis podcast based on the same
thing. And so what would you sayto somebody who their data point
(06:55):
is actually on that graph rightnow? What do they look at this
chart and and how do they makesense better?
How would you approached that interms of : "What do I do with
this as a creator?"
Justin (07:05):
You and I talk a lot about expectations. When you're
making something, what are yourexpectations for it? It's
interesting to think aboutpodcasting in relation to other
mediums. Like, you've been inbands. And if you show up at a
bar, how many people does therehave to be in the audience to
make you happy? Is it 20... 30?
Jeremy (07:26):
Yeah. I remember shows I would say probably the typical
show had 30 to 50 people, so Iplayed in, like, hardcore, like,
punk and metal bands, in andafter high school and like yeah.
I lived in a small city inSaskatoon, Canada. It's about a
200,000 person city. That's nota huge scene there.
And so showing up andfortunately, it was a small
space a lot of times. So I'dlike it felt, you know, pretty
lively, pretty packed. And,yeah, you're just happy to,
(07:48):
like, play your music and havepeople there who were enjoying
it. And so a lot of times, like,yeah, I've done plenty of
creative pursuits where 30people was a great day out.
Justin (07:57):
Yeah. And I mean, even just think, like, if you put up
a bunch of posters and said,hey. I'm gonna be giving a 1
hour monologue at the library onTuesday at 6 PM. If 10 people
showed up, I think you would beecstatic. So contextualizing
these numbers, having anaudience that's interested in
anything you have to say isalready a win. If more than two
(08:21):
people show up, that's alreadypretty incredible if you think
about it.
But A lot of this will depend onwhat job is this podcasting
doing for you in your life. Isthis podcast to help you get
more business? Is this podcastto help you grow an audience? Is
this podcast to help you quicklymake a bunch of money?
(08:44):
You know, if your expectationsare going to podcasting and
you've got that perfect idea fora show that's gonna instantly
get you All sorts of advertisingdollars. Maybe the lesson is
that your expectations need tobe realigned.
Jeremy (09:00):
Yeah. So I love this conversation about expectations,
and this is something that,really from when I I first
started my podcast productionagency, I initially made the
mistake early on of not settingexpectations with clients. And
then as podcasting got harderand harder, it became this
necessary thing where I didn'twanna be, like, kind of doing a
bait and switch where, like,they thought they would start
their show and they'd have, youknow, 50,000 downloads an
(09:22):
episode within 3 months.
And so I would say to them,like, okay. If you're gonna do
this, I can help you produce agreat show. No matter how great
a show we create, likely, you'regonna have to stick at this for
3, 5 years before this reallystarts to pay off. And, you you
know, you're gonna see somegrowth over that span, but it's
not gonna be, like, right out ofthe gate, you're getting these
amazing results.
(09:42):
And actually, like, on thatnote, I remember one of my early
clients, this was probably inthe 1st year I was editing and
producing podcast. There's aguest on one of his shows, and
he had this quote that has stuckwith me for for years. I think
about it on a weekly basis,basically, at this point.
And there was something alongthe lines of: "The root of all
unhappiness is misalignedexpectations." And I heard this
(10:02):
quote in the moment. It's justthis, like, thunderbolt moment.
And I started thinking about,like, all the things that I
might have been unhappy about atsome point in my life. And I was
like, yeah, that was a 100%.Like, I expected something else
to happen than what I got, and Iwas unhappy about it.
And I just think it's such aprofound thought: that we all as
creators, I think we need toaccept it. And we are given
(10:22):
plenty of opportunities to beforced to accept that along the
way to to growth and success.
Justin (10:28):
Yeah. And and maybe that initial energy and inspiration,
like, when you get struck withan idea for a show and like,
"I'm gonna make this podcast.This is gonna be amazing. It's
gonna be so good." To keep thatenergy because you need it to
get started. Otherwise, you'dnever make anything.
But then to moderate it with aconversation, maybe with
(10:51):
yourself and your cohost orwhoever is making the show about
expectations (10:55):
"Okay. Let's be realistic here. This is about
people who do..." Wait, what do you call
it when you go to Comic Con andyou dress up?
Jeremy (11:03):
Cosplay.
Justin (11:04):
This podcast is for people who do cosplay but with
their pets. You know, it's likea very small niche. What is are
a realistic expectation for theshow. And often, you won't know
until you've released 1 episodeand then 2 episodes and then 10,
and then maybe a 100 episodes.And the truth about podcasting
(11:25):
and really any creative endeavoris it can take time.
But to modify your expectations,keep that inspiration so that
you actually do the show, butmodify your expectations. Be
realistic about what you'remaking and what you can expect
in terms of downloads.
Jeremy (11:41):
Yeah. So I wanna bring in another data point here that
we we asked people who wentthrough the survey, like, what
is the primary goal for yourshow? Like, why are you doing
this in the first place? And Oh,that's interesting. People told
us was only 16% of people fromthis audience in particular
might not be representative ofall of podcasting.
16% of people were doing this asa strictly as a hobby. And there
(12:03):
were some other types ofreasoning in there, but I would
say most of the other reasons inthere, other there's 1, 6% was
to educate people, and it seemedlike that was separate from a
business. So we could maybe saythat, like, 22% of people were
doing their shows not for anybusiness purpose, but the
remaining, you know, 4 5ths ofthe audience, almost 80%, was
(12:26):
had some kind of businessintention around it. And so it
could be to build an audience,which I assume people wanna do
because they wanna monetize itin some way, it could be to grow
their personal brand andauthority. Those 2 were were
number 1.
Actually, they were tied fornumber 1. And then there's a
bunch of other stuff in terms ofconverting clients, growing
their network, increasing brandaffinity, increasing brand
awareness. And so it seems likethis set of podcasters is very
(12:49):
much thinking about, like, okay.I want my show to serve my
business in some way, whichultimately, if we take that all
the way to the end, it'sprobably like there's some kind
of monetization or revenue atsome point. So when we're
thinking about it in thatcontext where most of the people
here do want to monetize, whatdo they do with this data here
where, like, okay, the vastmajority of people are less than
a 1000 downloads an episode.
(13:11):
Is that realistic? How shouldthey set their expectations
around that?
Justin (13:14):
Yeah. It really depends, doesn't it? It depends on what
they so, for example, if wecould give an example of a top
10% show. One show on Transistorthat I know is a top 10% show is
this show called the mindsetmile. And I love the the premise
of the show.
It's we'll help you build betterhabits by making a small mindset
(13:35):
shift and walking or running amile a day for 30 days. So the
premise is, hey. Do you wannaget out and get some exercise
every day? Yes. Do you need someinspiration?
Do you want to improve yourmindset? Yes. Well, we are using
the podcast as a deliverymechanism to get you outside
(13:56):
every day, improve your mindset,And that promise is so
compelling and so unique. Youcan see, oh, I could see a lot
of people wanting that show. Shereleased it right around New
Year's when people are, youknow, have New Year's
resolutions.
And so that show has done verywell with that premise. And she
(14:17):
monetizes it different ways,advertising, her own courses,
things like that. An example ofa show at the bottom 90% where
the folks are still really happyto be doing the show is we have
a number of real estatebusinesses on Transistor, and,
you know, they get a 150downloads per episode, and
(14:37):
they'll email me and they'llsay, this show is killing it.
It's getting us so many leads.It's like the best business
decision we made.
We're so happy we're doing it.And, you know, for some people,
a 150 downloads would be a hugedisappointment, but for them,
it's perfect because it'sachieving what they want the
show to do for them. So that's 2things I think of is
(15:01):
contextualizing it going, oh,yeah. Okay. This is what a 90 a
top 10% show looks like.
This is what an bottom 90% showlooks like.
Jeremy (15:08):
Yeah. So I love that point. And I think the other
thing that this makes me thinkof is that assuming the majority
of people listening to this andcertainly, the majority of
people who completed the survey,they wanted their show to serve
their business in some way or tocreate a business around their
show. What that essentiallymeans is you need to understand
what is the business model thatI am pursuing here. Mhmm.
(15:30):
And that is going to dictate tosome extent how you should
construct your show. And so ifyou are pursuing what would be
thought of as a publishingbusiness model, which is
essentially, like, I'm going tocreate an asset that has a lot
of eyeballs or ear holes on it,and people will want to
advertise on that platform thatI have built. So the job that
I'm doing for other people isbuilding a collection of people
(15:52):
that these advertisers wannareach. This is there's even some
nuance here whereas if you'resaying like, okay. I want to get
sponsors like HelloFresh okay.
Well, they wanna work with showsthat have a large audience
already. They're trying to gofor mass appeal. It's a generic
kind of product. And so theyjust want as many people as
possible to hear it. And so ifthat's the goal that you want,
which you may have your reasonsfor wanting that, that's totally
(16:13):
fine.
And there are are, I will say,compelling reasons to pursue
other business models as welland other varieties of the
publishing business model. Butlet's just say that's year dream
is to get HelloFresh advertisingon your podcast and MeUndies and
Casper mattresses and all ofthe, you know, the ones that
we're all sick of hearing aboutso far. Although we love them as
sponsors, of course, you have aa certain kind of job set up for
(16:34):
yourself where it's like, okay,I need to get tens of thousands
of people listening to the show.And so now I know, okay, if I
need to get tens of thousands ofpeople listen to a show, what
type of show do tens ofthousands of people listen to?
And it's not every show.
There are certain formats thatare more likely to to have
higher listenership. We're gonnalook into some of those things
on future episodes. There arecertain topics, and so you
(16:54):
brought up the the idea of thethe Mindset Mile Show. And this
is a show that has very broadappeal. It is not niche, one one
makes it successful is that ithas a really unique format that
sure somebody could copy it, butbecause she's already done it,
it's kind of this likeintellectual property where it's
like, as soon as somebody elsecopies it, it's like, yeah.
I mean, she did it first. And sounless you've done it way better
(17:15):
or added some additional wrinkleon, probably, you're gonna have
a tough time kind of knockingher off her her perch or or
replicating her results. Yeah.And so I think that, like, when
you're aiming, your yourbusiness model will dictate the
show you need to create, andthen you can say, like, okay. Do
I wanna create a show like that?
And if you say no, then you cansay, like, okay. Well, are there
other business models that mightbetter align with what I wanna
(17:37):
create, and that's where you getinto, you know, real estate and
things like that, where maybeyou have a a high ticket,
product or service or somethinglike that. I've had clients who
are coaches. I had one client.She had, a show.
I think she had, like, 250downloads an episode, 300
downloads an episode, email listof, like, 300 people or
something like that. And she hada $300,000 launch based on this
tiny little audience. And it'slike, she had a high ticket
(17:58):
product. Her people loved her,and they, like, bought up
everything that she had to sellevery single time. And so this
is, I think, one of these ideaswhere it's like, okay.
What do I wanna get out of theshow? And and maybe what do I
need the show to do for me froma kind of sustenance perspective
in terms of finances? And thenhow do I kind of play with both
of those to kind of align themsomewhere in the middle.
Justin (18:19):
And you know what else this makes me think of is it
would be like if I said, hey,Jeremy. I wanna play basketball.
And you're like, oh, that soundsgreat. Like, some pickup games,
and I go, no. No.
No. No. I wanna play in the NBA.And I think your response would
be, Okay. Well, Justin, first ofall, do you realize how
competitive it is to get intothe NBA?
(18:40):
And second of all, you know,you're 5 foot 8. For me to get
into NBA, if I wanted to dothat, I would need to compete at
that level. And the same is truein podcasting. When you look at
this chart, There's not muchspace in the top 10%. The reason
there's less shows is that noteverybody can be in the top 10%.
There's only so many podcastlisteners. Those podcast
(19:03):
listeners only have so muchtime. And be realistic. Look at
your own podcast queue. Thereare tons and tons of unlistened
episodes in there.
You don't have enough time toget to all the episodes. So if
you're gonna compete in thatsphere, you gotta be ready. You
gotta be ready to competeagainst the big players, and
(19:25):
that means you're gonna have tomaybe take some of their
audience. How are you gonna dothat? Like, if that's where you
wanna compete, then be ready.
That's where you're going.Right? Whereas you can look at
the bottom 90%. It could okay.Well, what opportunities are
there here.
You know? We did a show when wewere starting Transistor, which
was just the story of usbuilding the product. Every day,
(19:49):
we've just every week, sorry, wewould just have a new report on
our struggles and the thingswe'd accomplished and what was
difficult. And There were agroup of people who were
interested in that journey, andthey came with us and we got,
you know, an average of maybe3,000 downloads per episode. And
that was perfect for us.
That accomplished what weneeded. We had all these fans
(20:12):
that were willing to help us. Wehad people supporting the show
on Patreon, And then many ofthose people became customers
and then also recommended us toothers because they were
invested in our story. Sothere's lots and lots of
opportunity in the bottom 90%. Alot of the media coverage
focuses on the top 10%, youknow, the Joe Rogans and all
(20:34):
that.
And the truth is is there's somuch you can do in the bottom
90% of this distribution that'sstill worth doing.
Jeremy (20:43):
Yeah. I I would say that if you were to look at, not
based on percentages, but just,like, total absolute number of
shows that were attached to 6 or7 or 8 figure businesses, the
vast majority of them wouldn'thave crazy download numbers. No.
You you get talking with a lotof people and it's like they
have small shows. They're kindof like, you know, less than
10000 downloads an episode,maybe 1 to 5 somewhere, who are
(21:04):
just doing incredible thingswith their businesses.
And I think what that speaks tofor me is that they know role
that their show plays in theirbusiness, and they focus on
that, and they don't try to asktheir show to do all these other
things. It's not trying to bethe top of their funnel and the
middle of their funnel and thebottom of their funnel and
trying to, like, both getattention and also, like,
convert people into clients andcustomers. The this client that
I mentioned before, her show,she basically created it
(21:27):
entirely to serve her existingcustomers at her lower tier
products and to just, like,spend more time with them. And
that was the the result. She hadkind of a membership community
at the time.
And she just made this podcastfor her membership community
almost as, like, an add on. And,like, people could find it, you
know, publicly and people did.But, really, she was like, I'm
just gonna use this to createbonus extra content, answer
questions that are coming up inmy community. And as a result,
(21:49):
like, they just grew closer andcloser and closer to her. And so
when she came up with this muchhigher ticket offer, they're
already a 100% sold on it basedon these previous months or, you
know, year or something likethat of time that they spent
with her.
Justin (22:01):
Yeah. I think we also need to have realistic
expectations about the medium ofpodcasting itself. I love this
idea. There's 2 types ofplatforms or channels, there are
discovery platforms, and thereare relationship platforms.
Jeremy (22:18):
So that are to a friend friend of the show, Jay Klaus
here, perhaps?
Justin (22:22):
Jay yes. Jay Clouse, I believe is the first person I
heard talking about this. Youknow, YouTube, TikTok, Google.
Those are discovery platforms.People all day are discovering
new content, new creators, newbusinesses.
But podcasting, emailnewsletters, blog posts, these
(22:42):
are formats that deepen arelationship with an audience.
And so if you're starting withno audience, maybe podcasting
isn't the right medium for you.It might still be worth trying
it out, and there areopportunities we're gonna talk
about further in the series, butbe realistic about what
podcasting is gonna get for you.If you're used to seeing other
(23:03):
creators on TikTok get 3,000,000views per TikTok well, you're
not gonna get that inpodcasting. It's different.
You know, we have these are longformat pieces of content, And
it's a relationship buildingplatform primarily, not a
discovery platform.
Jeremy (23:19):
Yeah. And I think the the add on to that to think
about that isn't always obviousearly on. The more time you
spend on these variousplatforms, the more you realize,
like, every platform has a biastowards something. Like, it is
designed to get people to take acertain action on that platform,
and sometimes these areaccidental. I don't know that
people when Adam Curry developedpodcasting and all of this,
(23:41):
like, I don't think he said,like, I want this to be really
hard for people to be able to,like, find new shows and all
these things.
That wasn't, like, intentionallybuilt in, but there are some
limitations of the platform thatmake it difficult for people to
find new shows, to sample newshows. I think about this all
the time, like, all the frictionthat if you're posting about
your show on social media, forsomebody to actually get through
(24:03):
an episode, and and I mean, wecan even, like, go way before
that. Just listened to the firsttwo minutes of an episode. Then
they're in, like, 30 secondmode. I mean, not even 30 second
mode.
You look at some peoplescrolling through Instagram, and
it's just, like, half a secondper post, people are not in a,
like, I'm gonna considerspending the next 45 minutes
potentially listening to theshow right now. They're like,
onto the next thing, onto thenext thing. And so you have to
(24:25):
get people. You have to be socompelling to break that cycle,
that mode that Instagram haskind of instilled in them, and
get them to pause. Beinteresting enough to get them
to click through to the showaway from the platform.
Yeah. And then they gotta, like,look through your episode titles
and see, like, is there anythinghere that interests me that
really grabs my attention? Andthen, you know, click play on an
episode and listen through.Like, this there's a lot of
(24:45):
friction in getting a newpodcast listener, and I think
that that's not something peoplereally think about. And there's
there's things you can do to getaround that and mitigate that,
but it helps to know, like, whatare we up against as podcasters
and what can we expect of thisthis medium.
Justin (24:59):
Totally. The other thing that made me think of is when I
look at this chart, there's justa big group of people that are
in the sub a 1000 downloadsgroup. Yep. The average
podcaster is getting 400 to 500downloads, at least in this
survey set. Yep.
The other thing it makes methink of is, okay. Well, how
(25:21):
could I be above average? Yeah.If most shows are average And
there's all this kinda noise andcompetition. What are some
things that I could do to bebetter than just okay?
There's just a lot of shows thatare just like, that's okay.
Would you listen again? Probablynot. It's like, okay. Well, what
can you do?
That's the opportunity. What canyou do to be so compelling from
(25:46):
the very beginning, like, fromthe moment they first hear about
the podcast to then going andchecking it out on Spotify, what
can you do in your packaging?What can you do in your
description, your title, yourtrailer? What can you do in the
little video clips you'reposting? What can you do in
terms of the structure of theshow, how interesting it is,
microphone technique?
(26:07):
You know, there's so manydynamics that you could leverage
to make your show above average.And that's the part that kind of
gets me fired up. It's like,okay. Wow. Look at the crowd.
The crowd is right here. Whatcould I do to rise above the
noise? What can I do to be thestandout show in my niche, in my
(26:27):
genre, in my format, and there'sa lot of opportunity there
because I think most shows arejust okay? Yeah.
Jeremy (26:35):
And I think, like, that's something that I think a
lot of people in podcastingwouldn't really say out loud,
but I think we could alsoprobably universally agree that
if you were to just get arandomly generated podcast of
the several million that existright now, and you just click
play on that, there is a betterthan likely chance that you
probably would not stick throughlistening with that show very
long, even if you were maybeinterested in that topic or open
(26:55):
to it. And so I really like thatthat idea, I think that in in
everything, like, yeah, it'sit's one thing to say, like,
this is what the average show isdoing, but it's also another
thing to say, like, okay, if theaverage show is doing this,
that's my, like, bottom,baseline of where I wanna be.
And so I need to look at, like,what are these other shows here,
and how can I be a little bitbetter than that?
And I think the the thing thatyou mentioned there about, you
know, being the standout show inyour niche or in your industry,
(27:19):
I think that's a much morereasonable goal to have, I think
if you look at, like, okay, I'mlooking at this whole dataset.
There's 500 shows here and thisthe top one has, you know,
60,000 downloads an episode. Andhere, I'm at a 120 downloads an
episode. Like, I don't even knowhow I get from here to there.
But if you say, okay, there's 10shows in my niche. Maybe only
like 5 of those are activelyproducing episodes right now.
(27:40):
I feel like most shows, if theyset the goal for themselves
within 6 months to a year, couldprobably objectively create the
best show in their space. And Ithink that's, like, a really
great goal to have because youcan, like it's a small enough
dataset that you can actuallylisten to the other shows. You
can say, like, oh, this is kindof interesting about that show,
but, you know, it doesn't dothis, which I really wish it did
or, you know, they're focusedmore on this side of things. I
(28:00):
don't like the tone of this one,whatever. And you can kinda say
like, okay.
I see where I can be better thansome of these other shows and
where I can be different in acompelling way than the other
shows. It's not always aboutjust being the absolute best
because that's gonna besubjective to your listeners.
But a lot of times, like,picking the small pool, doing a
a bit of research, and saying,like, okay. Like, what can I do
a little bit better than allthese other shows that would
(28:21):
make my show somebody in thisspace is like their absolute
favorite show?
Justin (28:26):
That's right. And that point of view is so important.
If if you're just starting acomedy podcast because you think
you're funny and that's it,that's not enough. You gotta go
out and listen to 10 comedypodcasts and see what you're up
against. And if while you'relistening to those shows, You're
listening with a critical earand it's firing you up.
(28:47):
You're like, you know what? I'mfunnier than these people. I
really am. I I know what I coulddo to make my show more
compelling. These folks aretheir intro is too long.
There's too many ads, and theirmicrophone technique is off. I I
can't hear it. It's like you'vegot a list now that should fire
you up about the things you'regonna do to stand out from the
(29:08):
crowd, the things you're gonnado to be above average.
Jeremy (29:12):
And the you know, the I think there's a lot of
opportunities there. I thinkwhat I've seen a lot, from a lot
of shows that I've worked withand as well as newer shows that
are coming into spaces and andthey're competing with these
bigger shows that have beenaround a while is that a lot of
times, some of the big shows,they built big audiences based
on being early to the game. AndMhmm. Not because their show is
particularly good. And so Ithink there is a ton of
(29:35):
opportunity.
We see this in every, you know,industry. There's this natural
cycle where, you know, techcompanies or shows or whatever
it is, like, anything that growsbig, it accumulates all this
kind of, like, we would say insoftware, tech debt I say we
even though I'm not even insoftware, but I just spend so
much time, like, in that world.Yeah. But there's all these
things that actually end upholding you back where it's like
Yeah. You built something intoyour framework that was built
(29:55):
around a certain era or wherelistener expectations were
different, and now that'schanged and it's really hard for
you to adapt.
And so newer shows often have amuch easier time by kind of
tapping into what people aredoing now and what listeners are
wanting right now, what'spopular and being able to kind
of really shoot past a lot ofthose other shows.
Justin (30:12):
Yeah. Totally. So as we're closing out this episode,
what are some actionabletakeaways we can give the
listener who's listening rightnow. They're doing the dishes or
walking the dog or whatever. Andthey're like, okay.
This is great. I they're they'rebut give me something to do.
What are some things people cango away from this episode and do
to help grow their show? So I
Jeremy (30:33):
think the first thing for me is on that idea of
aligning expectations and justhaving a look at okay.
Regardless of where my show isright now, if I'm getting 10,000
downloads an episode or I'mgetting a 100 downloads an
episode, like, what do I expectfor my show? What do I need it
to do for it to be for me toconsider it a success? And
that's gonna be different foreveryone that might be growing
to a astronomical amount ofdownloads or that might be, you
(30:55):
know, creating one of these realestate shows where they got a
150 downloads an episode, and itjust brings in clients. And it's
like, hey.
This is the best thing we'veever done with our marketing.
And so I think getting tounderstand what you want to get
out of this show, and then Iwould say, do some research. And
can you find examples of othershows that are similar to yours?
They don't need to be identicalto the show that you're doing.
Hopefully, they're not.
But, like, can you find examplesof other shows that have done
(31:18):
what you wanna do. And so Ioften think about this in in how
I work with people as demandvalidation. And so it's looking
out and saying, like, is thereaudience demand and interest in
my topic that I can objectivelykind of see, like, okay, there
are other shows that have gotthis many downloads or they
build their audiences onInstagram or email list whatever
it might be, YouTube channelsthat have grown to the level
(31:39):
that I want for my show. And ifso, that's great. You can say,
like, okay, there's clearlyaudience interest in my topic.
I can find a way to tap intothat. And if you can't find
that, then and you do a bunch ofresearch, that might be a sign
that, like, okay, myexpectations might be misaligned
here. And if you find that out,then you kind of have a choice
to make. You're like, okay, do Ijust like creating this show
(32:01):
enough that I'm gonna say, like,okay. I thought I could get this
many downloads, but actually,maybe this is more realistic.
So am I okay with that? Yes.Great. I'm gonna keep doing the
show because I love doing Yeah.Or there's a lot of people and
I'm in this camp too, where Imight say, like, actually, I've
got, like, 37 podcast ideas andthis was just one of them.
And I actually have some otherideas that I think have a higher
ceiling on them that are goingto give me a better shot at
(32:23):
hitting that goal in particular.
Justin (32:25):
Mhmm.
Jeremy (32:25):
And so maybe I would be better moving on from this show
and starting up something thathas a bit more potential that I
can see, you know, there is an apath forward for me to reach
that goal that I have. So Yeah.That would be my kind of, like,
takeaway of, like, as you'relooking at the numbers, thinking
about where you're at, what oneof the next steps might be, and
just to see where you stack up.
Justin (32:41):
Yeah. What about on your side? What's some some
actionable steps that people cantake?
You know what that just made methink of is people can run this
experiment themselves. It wouldbe a little bit of work, but I
think it would be fascinating.Is On on Transistor, you can
start multiple shows on onepayment plan. And what I would
do is if I have multiple ideas,I would record a trailer episode
(33:01):
for each one. So I've got 5ideas, trailer episode for each
one, submit it to ApplePodcasts, Spotify, all the
players, all the discoverymechanisms, and just see what
happens.
Because maybe there's enoughsearch intent there. Maybe
there's enough interest thatpeople would just find your show
(33:23):
based on the keywords, or thetopic. Or maybe, you know, post
the link in one forum thatyou're interested in, a group of
people that you're like, oh, Iknow they're into the show. See
what the response is. And youcould even be honest.
Like, hey. I'm consideringmultiple show formats. Here's
one I'm excited about that Ithought you might be excited
about. I'm just posting in thisFacebook group to see what you
(33:45):
guys think. Would you listen toa show like this?
And just see what kind ofresponse you get. Put something
out there, actually do the work,release something, and then see
what happens. And maybe whatcomes back is, oh, wow. This
feels So much of this is basedon feel. This feels like the
kind of show that if I worked atit might get a 1,000 downloads
(34:07):
or 2,000 downloads.
So that'd be an interestingexperiment, I think, to run is
just to and you could do this ina smaller way. You could just
record a bunch of audio filesand just send it to friends And
just get their responses like,hey. I know you're super into
soccer. I just recorded thistrailer. Would you listen to
this podcast?
Hey. Here's a idea for a realestate show for the company.
(34:29):
Send it to your boss and say,what do you think about this
this idea? And just see whattheir response is. I think it's
it's really helpful to actuallydo something, put it out into
the wild, And see how peoplerespond before fully committing
to, I'm gonna do this show everyweek for the rest of my life.
This is like, okay. Slow down.Just why don't you try recording
(34:51):
a trailer episode first, puttingthat out and see how it feels?
Jeremy (34:55):
I love that. And, if you I think we actually had a
previous discussion another timeabout if you were a little bit
more, marketing savvy, you canalso do this with a pretty small
budget on Facebook ads. You cando, like, a $5 ad spend, and you
could split test cover art,landing pages, trailers, things
like that, which, if you wannago down into the the marketing
weeds, that's, certainly anoption that's available to you
Justin (35:17):
as well. Well, you know, another thing is Just do it as a
TikTok series or a real seriesto say, hey. My name's Justin,
and I'm considering 5 topics forpodcasts. Here's one of them.
And then you just do thetrailer.
And, you know, those algorithms,because their discovery
platforms, are really good atpicking up what people are
interested in. And so you coulddo 5 TikToks or 5 reels or 5
(35:41):
YouTube shorts and just see whatpeople pick up on. You've been
really intentional that youwanna make it a podcast, And
then you're gonna get all sortsof comments and, you know,
views, real life examples ofwhether people are compelled to
Listen. Right?
Jeremy (35:57):
I love that. So, I got the sense that that was not
actually gonna be your originaltakeaway. That is a fantastic
and super actionable takeaway.But did you have something else
in mind for looking at this thisidea of the power law and the
distribution of shows? Whatshould people do with that?
Justin (36:10):
One thing's been that's been really helpful for me is to
find some podcasting buddies.Get a group of people, a cohort,
a gang of people that are alsotrying to make shows. And in the
back channels, you can comparenumbers. And just having other
people who are doing somethingsimilar to me, show me how many
(36:31):
downloads they're getting andthen being able to interact with
them, like, what worked, whatdidn't work, how did you do
this, has been so helpful. And Ithink you can find these people
all over.
You can go to meetup groups. Ifa meetup group doesn't exist in
your town, you can start oneeither for podcasters or for
podcasters in your niche, go toconferences, start a Slack
(36:54):
group, start a Discord group,start a Telegram group, reach
out to people on Facebook orTwitter or whatever and say,
hey. It looks like you and I aretrying to do something similar.
I'm starting a little group.We're gonna meet once a week And
just talk about how we canimprove our show.
Having just a group of peoplethat you can share that
experience with makes such adifference. And to me, actually,
(37:18):
there's so so many numbers thatpeople won't talk about in
public, but they will in a smallgroup, find some podcasting
friends.
Jeremy (37:25):
Yeah. I love that. So I think that is wrapping up our
first episode here, but I feellike before we we close things
out, I would love to get somekind of, like, listener
interaction engagement going on.And the ideas on what we might
be able to do to, to be able tohelp some people out in a more
kind of, personal way.
Justin (37:44):
I mean, one thing that we've done in the past that I
think would be really cool hereis give people the opportunity
to submit their show that wecould then review on air and
just go, okay. Here's a show,and we'll just give practical
tips on how we would grow thatshow. I think that'd be a good
idea. And maybe people couldsubmit it in a review. They
(38:05):
could just leave us a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify and
just say, hey.
Love the podcast. Please reviewmy show and then just give us
the name of your show. And thenmaybe let's also put a link in
the show notes. We'll create aform that says, submit your
show, click on that, and, we'llpick those up there too. And
maybe we'll just focus on 1 perepisode.
Jeremy (38:25):
I love that. And, you know, part of the whole reason
for this report to exist andthis podcast to exist is
actually, you know, helpingpeople understand how to market
their shows better, how to growthem better. And so this feels,
you know, super in line withthat that kind of goal that
we've, stated as coming intothis.
Justin (38:40):
Yeah. You know what else? I'm also gonna put a
feedback link in our show notesbecause so often when I'm
listening to a show, I justwanna say something. And I think
it'd be cool if we had a littlevoice mailbox or something like
that
Jeremy (38:52):
Mhmm.
Justin (38:53):
Where people could just leave their thoughts, written
video, audio, whatever, becausewe wanna improve the show. We
wanna make it more helpful forpeople. We wanna know you're
thinking, we want this to be atwo way conversation. So submit
your show. We may choose toreview it on there.
And if you have feedback,thoughts, click the link in the
description, and we'll pickthose up too.
Jeremy (39:15):
Perfect. Would love to hear from you as a listener of
the show, and we will see you inthe next episode. And in the
meantime, you can check out thefull report, which this episode
and all the others are based onat podcastmarketingtrends.com/
2023. Justin, this has been ablast as always. Looking forward
to chatting with you again inthe next episode.
Justin (39:36):
Yeah. We'll see you then.
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