When "I'm Fine" Isn't Fine: Recognizing the Hidden Signs of Abuse

What does safety really mean when you're trapped in an abusive relationship? For forty years, Genesis Women's Shelter & Support has been answering this question through action, evolving from a seven-room emergency shelter into a comprehensive support system that recognizes both physical and emotional dimensions of safety.

In this revealing conversation, Genesis CEO Jan Langbein and Chief Residential Officer Jordyn Lawson take us through the history of domestic violence services in America—a journey that began long before shelter doors opened, tracing back to women's suffrage and the fight against laws that once permitted husbands to beat their wives legally. They share how Genesis has continuously adapted to meet survivor needs, from adding transitional housing to legal services to innovative occupational therapy for traumatized children.

The most dangerous misconception about domestic violence? That victims are safe once they leave. In reality, 75% of women murdered by partners are killed after separation. This stark reality explains why "just leaving" isn't simple, especially when abusers use isolation, financial control, and threats as weapons. Lawson expertly dismantles our understanding of abuse, explaining how controlling behaviors combined with any physical aggression represent the highest risk for homicide, while strangulation increases murder risk elevenfold.

Perhaps most importantly, Langbein and Lawson offer practical guidance for everyone who suspects someone might be suffering. "Trust your gut," they urge, explaining that even when victims deny abuse initially, simply knowing someone cares enough to ask can become a lifeline. Whether you're concerned about someone you know or working in a position to help survivors, this episode provides the knowledge to recognize warning signs that media sensationalism often obscures.

Ready to be part of the solution? Genesis offers 24/7 support at 214-946-HELP. Because as this episode reminds us: abuse won't stop until abusers stop abusing—but we can all help create pathways to safety.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The subject matter of this podcast will address
difficult topics multiple formsof violence, and identity-based
discrimination and harassment.
We acknowledge that thiscontent may be difficult and
have listed specific contentwarnings in each episode
description to help create apositive, safe experience for
all listeners.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
In this country, 31 million crimes 31 million crimes
are reported every year.
That is one every second.
Out of that, every 24 minutesthere is a murder.
Every five minutes there is arape.
Every two to five minutes thereis a sexual assault.
Every nine seconds in thiscountry, a woman is assaulted by
someone who told her that heloved her, by someone who told

(00:43):
her it was her fault, by someonewho tries to tell the rest of
us it's none of our business andI am proud to stand here today
with each of you to call thatperpetrator a liar.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women.
I'm Maria McMullin.
Throughout history, thetreatment of women has often
been fraught with inferiority,oppression and violence,
primarily bred out of the needfor complete power and control.
There are numerous periods intime where women were treated as
property, allowed to be beatenwith anything that was no wider

(01:13):
than a man's thumb, denied theright to wear pants, to work
outside of the home, to serve inclergy or to vote.
Moreover, domestic violenceagainst women was perceived
simply as a family issue whichresulted in little to no
intervention, or the violencewas disregarded as a man
justifiably handling a domesticproblem.

(01:34):
Fortunately, much has changedsince those times.
Women now serve in the highestechelons of government, military
and law enforcement, as well aswithin corporate and nonprofit
spheres.
Along with this progress,domestic violence prevention,
intervention and response hasalso significantly improved,
which has helped women achievesafety, healing and independence

(01:57):
.
Because of these advances, onecould imagine that women would
be able to extricate themselvesfrom an abusive relationship,
especially women who have bothmoney and means.
Unfortunately, due to therelentless use of abusive
tactics by offenders, society'slack of awareness and cultural
biases, and multiple gaps insystemic response, women of all

(02:17):
walks of life and backgroundscontinue to experience abuse and
or violence and are subject todeath by their abuser.
Today, joined by Jan Langbein,ceo of Genesis Women's Shelter
and Support, along with ChiefResidential Officer Jordan
Lawson, will review the historyof domestic violence services in
the United States, how Genesishas helped to shape the course

(02:38):
of that history, discuss thefuture of domestic violence
services that could betteraccommodate the needs of
survivors and provide bestpractices for law enforcement
practitioners and others whosupport victims of domestic
violence.
Jan Langbein is the CEO ofGenesis Women's Shelter and
Support, who, for 34 years, hasbeen an activist in efforts to

(02:58):
end violence against women.
As the CEO, ms Langbeinoversees internal and external
operations, as well as fundingand community education.
Under her leadership, genesishas grown from a seven-room
emergency shelter to afull-service response for
survivors of domestic violenceand maintained its unique status
as one of the few victimservice programs that

(03:20):
accomplishes sustainabilitywithout government funding.
In 2009, ms Langbein concludeda presidential appointment as
Senior Policy Advisor to theDirector of the United States
Department of Justice Office onViolence Against Women.
As Senior Policy Advisor, janLangbein served as Chief
Strategist of OVW.
She is also a recognizednational expert on domestic

(03:43):
violence and conducts trainingand workshops across the United
States.
Additionally, in partnershipwith the Dallas Police
Department and the FBI, msLangbein co-founded the annual
International Conference onCrimes Against Women.
Jordan Lawson is a licensedclinician and LPC supervisor who
currently serves as the chiefresidential officer at Genesis

(04:04):
Women's Shelter and Support.
Ms Lawson supervises both theemergency shelter and Annie's
House Transitional LivingProgram.
Services within these twolocations include a 24-hour
helpline, on-site school for Kthrough 6th grade, on-site
daycare and children's services,advocacy services and
counseling services.
Previously, ms Lawson was theassistant clinical director at

(04:27):
Genesis and provided individualand group therapy to women and
children for over eight years.
She has worked in the field ofdomestic violence and trauma
recovery for over 16 years.
Jan and Jordan welcome back tothe show.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Thank you so much.
I'm glad to be here.
I know you are.
Yes, thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
I'm glad to be here too, because we all work
together at Genesis Women'sShelter and Support, and I know
you both as champions for thecause to combat domestic
violence, provide shelter andservices to victims and
survivors and fight to holdoffenders accountable
accountable.
Jan, we want to start with youin this conversation, and we

(05:06):
have a lot of ground to coverwhen we are talking about the
history of domestic violenceservices, where we are today
with those services and a wholelot more.
Perhaps you can share with ushow Genesis started and how far
it has come in terms of serviceprovision or wraparound services
to include things likeoccupational therapy.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Absolutely.
As you all know, this yearwe're celebrating our 40th
anniversary of Genesis Women'sShelter and Support and when I
think back to where we've beenand how far we've come, I'm
amazed.
I really am.
The beginning of Genesis.
The Genesis of Genesis actuallystarted in the basement of the
Stew Pot Soup Kitchen in thebasement of First Presbyterian

(05:44):
Church, where an Episcopalpriest, father Jerry Hill, was
working with the chronicallyhomeless.
He met a woman who was actuallyliving in her suburban, feeding
her children at the stewpotbecause it was not safe to be at
home.
Recognizing that she was notchronically homeless but
situationally homeless, whichmany women become as they flee
to safety, he began thinkingwell, where can we find a safe

(06:08):
bed in a shelter?
And on that day the closestavailable bed was Jacksonville,
florida.
So some leaders of thePresbyterian Church and the
Episcopalian Diocese cametogether and said that's not
okay and the dream of Genesisrose up out of the basement of
that church.
I think about that woman allthe time.
I wish I knew who she was.

(06:29):
I'd love to thank her.
Because of her courage and herdetermination she really changed
the way that Dallas looks atthe issue of domestic violence.
I keep envisioning in my mindher children, who probably
probably are now, you know,45-year-old men.
But that is how we started, andthe first efforts that these

(06:50):
gentlemen made was actually anemergency shelter they found.
The city of Dallas was able todonate an old, abandoned
firehouse, and those became thefirst seven bedrooms of Genesis
Shelter became the first sevenbedrooms of Genesis Shelter.
Now, since then, of course, werecognize over and over again
the services that are necessaryfor women who are trying to flee
to safety, and certainly aseven-bedroom shelter isn't

(07:13):
enough.
We have made an addition on theback, doubling the occupancy
capabilities.
We also know that an eight-weekstay in a shelter isn't long
enough, and so we have builttransitional housing.
We know that lack of access tocivil legal representation can
mean defeat, and so we haveadded a legal clinic, we've
added child care, we have addedpreschool and school, elementary

(07:36):
school, and as each of theseroadblocks would sort of rear
its ugly head, the amazing teamat Genesis would say, okay, what
can we do about it?
How can we fix that?
And so what we have today is afull service response,
wraparound services forsurvivors of domestic violence,
women and children who aresurvivors of domestic violence.

(07:56):
One of the things that I'm soexcited about is relatively new
for us.
My clinical team would come tome and say we need an
occupational therapist on siteand I'd be like, oh no, that's
not what we do.
And they'd come back and they'dsay we need an occupational
therapist on site.
And as we started lookingaround, we realized more and
more kiddos who had experiencedthe trauma and watched and

(08:18):
listened or experienced physicaltrauma themselves that were
coming in on the autism spectrum.
They were coming in with severeADHD.
These neurodivergent issues arenow covered over with complex
trauma where it's happened againand again and again.
And so, as it worked out, wewere able to find the funding

(08:39):
for an occupational therapist.
We were building out a sensoryroom, which was a problem in
itself because I didn't knowwhat goes in a sensory room.
I don't know, and we couldn'tfind another program like ours
that had occupationaltherapeutic assistance.
And so we put one foot in frontof the other once again, and I
think we were the first that wecould find that actually has

(09:00):
incorporated occupationaltherapy, and it is amazing the
difference it makes.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, and all of these things, as you point out,
happened over four decades.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Right, I said it in four minutes, I think, but it
took 40 years to do.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
It did take 40 years to do and they were building
blocks for Genesis and learningopportunities for Genesis and
the community about whatdomestic violence is.
And the movement has evenchanged over the course of those
40 years.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, I think the amazing thing about Genesis is
its ability to really be attunedto our clients and see what is
it that they're really currentlystruggling with, like, what's
the like you said, the roadblockto being able to seek safety
and stability, and that's thespace where we go okay, well,
let's create a service for that.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Right and I know that's what you've done in these
40 years is just constantlyread what's the next thing she
needs help overcoming and how dowe add that and you know when,
when I started and you alltaught me this as clinicians
when we started out, wedefinitely used a medical model.
You know what's wrong with you.
Take this pill, get aprotective order and come back
and see me.
But our approach now, with thistrauma, informed, everything,

(10:09):
is so amazing because it's notwhat's wrong with you, it's
what's happened to you and youknow this incredible team walks
beside her in those, in thoseefforts.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, so it's changed a lot.
I do think OT, though, is goingto be the next big change from
medical model to trauma-informedit has been that OT is really
the thing that can bridge thegaps between clinical and
advocacy and clinical advocacyand legal.
Ot is kind of the services thatcan stand between all three of

(10:38):
those and really connecteverything.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
And it's been a learning process for us.
We've been working on this forseveral years now and it's been

(11:05):
a learning process for us.
We've been working on this forseveral years now and from time
to time we even bring movement,and why that information is
crucial to the work you're doingtoday.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, I'd love to jump in on that.
I think when we think of the DVmovement, we have to even go
back farther, because it was thefight for the right to vote for
women is really what began toaddress the issues of the
violence against us in 1848.
A group of women got togetherand they started talking about
what wasn't right, and at thattime their husbands had legal

(11:34):
power over them.
They could beat them, and itwas not against the law.
Women couldn't get an education, they were banned from
professions like law or medicine.
They couldn't participate inchurch affairs, they couldn't
work or if they did, it was onlya fraction of what men made at
that time.
But it all depended on thisvote.

(11:54):
The women wanted the right tovote.
Unfortunately, even though the19th Amendment was introduced to
Congress in 1878, 1878, so thatis 30 years after the first
conversations about it but after1878, it was not ratified for
42 more years, 1920.
And what's not interesting?

(12:15):
It's interesting, but it's notinteresting is the fact that the
19th Amendment gave women theright to vote, but really, in
practice, only white women,women of color, really did not
get the freedom, not just theright to vote, but really, in
practice, only white women,women of color, really did not
get the freedom not just theright but the freedom to vote
until Voting Rights Act passedin 1965.
So it's been a hard road, evenand I know I've been married a

(12:37):
long time.
But in my married life Icouldn't get a credit card
without my husband's signatureon it, I couldn't get birth
control, I couldn't go to an IvyLeague school, I couldn't go
abroad without his permission, Icouldn't open my own bank
account.
I could be refused on that.
And I know that we've come along way.
But we look at the domesticviolence movement that went in

(12:59):
parallel with the suffrage, therights to vote, and yeah, we've
come a long way, but we arehanging on tightly to it.
We stand on the shoulders ofwomen who were force fed and
imprisoned and ridiculed and,you know, worked 50 years to get
this right.
And I want so desperately forparticularly women, but all

(13:21):
people, to be willing to, youknow, stand up and march on and
sit in on whatever it takes,that we don't lose what they did
for us.
We don't give it away, we don't.
It just doesn't disappear.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
On top of all of that , there were other things
happening then in the 1970s,like these consciousness raising
groups that women were involvedin and who began to really have
the conversations aboutbattered women, which is what
domestic violence was calledback in the day, and the
movement that sprang out of thatwas more or less bricks and
mortar.
So it was more or less ashelter bed movement, and at the

(13:58):
time that was really the onlyviable recourse for women
fleeing an abusive relationship.
So, jordan, what have you foundto be some of the stigmas
associated with the word shelter, and how have those
stigmatizations prevented womenfrom seeking help?

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, I think a lot of times the greatest stigma is
just this belief system thatit's only for homeless women,
only for the down and out whocan't take care of herself.
There's this sort of implicationthat if you have to go to
shelter it's because you're in avery bad place.
You've done, you've made somereally poor choices and, and you
know, if you have a job, youshouldn't go to shelter.
If you um, and so I think thestigma really is that having to

(14:37):
go to shelter really is shamefuland that it shows that it's my
fault, right, right.
Whereas what we know is that alot of times, the first and most
common tactic in an abusiverelationship is isolation, to
isolate somebody away fromresources, whether that be
finances, whether that betransportation, whether that be

(14:57):
employment, or it might besupportive individuals like
family and friends, and so then,when it comes down to literally
needing to leave to stay alive,a lot of times she's been so
isolated away from all of thatsupport that really we want
people to know the shelter'sthere because it's the safest
place for her to go.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
So when we talk about safety, then the word safe
means different things todifferent people, which explains
why people respond to domesticviolence in different ways, to
include how they help others ina domestic violence situation.
So just Jordan again.
What does the word safe mean toGenesis, and how has that
definition helped women freethemselves from an abusive
relationship?

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, I really appreciate the question, because
the truth is is that you know,we're very intentional about
language, as Genesis, because somany words have specific
meaning for our clients, for oursurvivors, right?
So many of them haveexperienced certain words that
were used against them or weretwisted to be used against them.
And so, the truth is is thatsafe is a really hard word for a

(15:58):
lot of our clients.
What does it mean to feel safewhen I've been in a relationship
for a year, three years, sevenyears, 20 years, where every
single day, I'm in this place oftrying to stay ahead of what's
going to happen next?
When is he going to get madagain?
What's he going to get madabout again?
And so there's just been thisconstant lack of emotional
safety, let alone physicalsafety, and so we are really

(16:20):
careful with the word and whatwe mean when we talk about
safety is a prioritized physicalsafety.
The reality of domestic violenceis that women are killed by
their abusive partner everysingle day, and so we have to
take very seriously her physicalsafety and we have to be really
direct in talking about how areyou physically safe?
Talk to me about theexperiences at home.
What's the history of physicalabuse, potentially.

(16:42):
But then we also get intotalking about emotional safety.
Right, what does it feel liketo be in your home?
I always explain to people thatthe truth is, yes, abuse is
specific to certain behaviors,but domestic violence is really
that pattern of power andcontrol, that diminishment of a
woman in her home, and so that'sthat repetitive experience of

(17:03):
behaviors that make her feelintimidated or afraid.
The truth is, any behaviorcould be abusive if it makes her
feel intimidated or afraid oruneasy about what's going to
happen next.
And so when we talk aboutsafety, we explain that
emotional safety thing.
One, because if she doesn'tfeel emotionally safe, there's a
good chance it's a huge redflag that abuse is going on.

(17:26):
And two, there are some thingsthat we can do to increase her
emotional safety, to help her,educate her on what, the
dynamics of things that aregoing on, and help her
understand why, when he doesthis, it makes her feel this way
and that's why it's actuallynot okay and not healthy.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Can you just maybe I missed it, but can you just give
an example of emotional safetyor what it feels to be, what
it's like to be unsafeemotionally?

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, I'll give an example, so, um, kind of a.
I use it to be relatablebecause, you know, pretty much
everybody around me does have asibling.
But do you have a sibling,maria?
I do, you do?
Yeah, so I have a little sister.
We're very close with eachother.
She's very important to me andwe have a history of being
emotionally safe with each otherNot 100% perfect, never had

(18:12):
conflict in our relationship,but we're safe with each other.
And so the example I give isthat there are times where we do
get mad at each other, we getirritated with each other.
We've even argued before andI'll tell you that in an
argument we have called eachother names before.
So let's say, me and my sisterin an argument and all of a
sudden I get mad and I yell youbitch at my sister.

(18:32):
There is a high likelihood thatshe's going to be hurt,
offended, sad, right.
I want to be really clear.
It's an unhealthy relationshipbehavior calling names because
it could really affect ourrelationship in that moment.
But because we have thispattern of safety, because
typically she feels I respecther boundaries and she respects
my boundaries, I comfort her asmuch as she comforts me.

(18:56):
I encourage her and sheencourages me, and so we have
this pattern of equalness andthis power of openness and being
able to be who we are andaccepted with each other.
I'm emotionally safe in thisrelationship.
She's not going to be afraid ofme when I call her that name
right again, not okay to callher the name, but it doesn't

(19:17):
necessarily cross the line intodomestic violence or into abuse
because she doesn't feel afraidof me.
On the contrary, if I'm drivingaround with my husband, who's
larger than me, got a reallyloud voice, a really deep voice,
let's say we're in an argumentand we're kind of going back and
forth, all of a sudden he yellsyou bitch.
If in that moment I go oh wow,this is getting really escalated

(19:40):
, this is getting really serious, we need to calm down, and I
sort of feel concern aboutwhat's going to happen next or
about him being mad andcontinuing to get madder, in
that moment I'm not emotionallysafe.
I might not be physically safeeither, depending on the pattern
of my relationship, but I'm notemotionally safe in that moment
because I'm fearful.

(20:02):
I'm fearing of what could happennext and whether or not I could
get hurt next, and so now I'min a place of protection and
it's in that place of protectionwhere I'm sort of doing
whatever it takes to calm thingsdown, for us to be okay and be
chill.
That's where my partner couldpotentially really take
advantage of it and assert powerand control over me.

(20:22):
So when we talk about emotionalsafety, we talk about being in
a space where you have the rightto disagree with your partner
and not be punished for it,where you have the right to be
upset and not be punished forbeing upset.
Right?
A lot of times, my clients willtalk about only being able to
express good feelings, becauseany sort of bad feelings
frustration, anger, sadness ismet with blame and shame.

(20:45):
Right, they're wrong forfeeling that way, they're wrong
for experiencing that, and soit's not emotionally safe
because if they feel that orexpress that or experience that,
they actually might be punishedfor having that.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Thank you so much for providing all of that
background, because and I feellike I've heard this song before
I think we had this exactconversation on this show one
day where you gave me thatexample, so but it's perfect
example for what we're talkingabout today, because I think
there are elements of domesticviolence that people don't
understand, they don't recognize, they don't consider them abuse
and they don't realize thatthey could lead to like really

(21:19):
serious consequences.
And you also touched onsomething about how shelter is
one option for a personexperiencing domestic violence,
but it's not the only option.
What other remedies areavailable to women to not only
be safe but feel secure, embracehealing and gain independence?

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, I think we have to stop and think that the
shelter isn't the only answer.
It is an answer, but it may noteven be the best answer.
There may not be room in theshelter.
The eight-week stay in theshelter isn't long enough, and
so we rely on other resourcesall the time.
I think and Jordan, you may wantto talk about our
non-residential services but ifsomebody is going to feel safe

(22:01):
and secure, it just can't bewhen she walks into the shelter
in a non-disclosed location.
What about how safe is shegoing to feel?
Safe and secure?
It just can't be when she walksinto the shelter in a
non-disclosed location.
What about how safe is shegoing to feel when she goes to
court?
How safe is she going to feelwhen she has to look for a job
or change her job, or look forhousing or you know all these
things that have to happen asshe's trying to gain
independence.
It's really, really difficult.

(22:22):
So our staff, Jordan and herteam, work really hard at
collecting these other remediesand sort of laying them out in a
smorgasbord fashion to whereour clients can see what is best
for her.
How can we, how can she changeher life?
But I don't think you can healif you can't afford to feed your
children.
I don't think you can heal ifyou're afraid of the exchange

(22:45):
when you're doing custodyexchange.
So what we've tried to do isremove those fears.
And one of the things when youwere talking about safety, I
love the fact that when wesafety plan, we have sliced it
and diced it so thinly that wetalk about being safe in the
home when the fighting starts.
We talk about being safe whenyou do go to court or at your

(23:08):
job.
We talk about phone safety.
We talk about when you'releaving, about to leave, how to
do that and not get killed,Because 75% of all women who are
killed are killed after theyhave left, not really while
they're in it.
So that's a very scary, unsafeplace to be.
But then also, so they come.

(23:29):
Let's say they come to Genesisand they feel a safe place to
sleep.
But how do I get on a bus andhow do I go to a job and how do
I, you know, go open a bankaccount or close out another?
I mean, there's so many layersof this and I love this about
the Genesis, the Genesis staff,the teams over there that look
beyond the shelter safety to allthe other layers and needs.

(23:52):
Yeah, and we've done that overthe years.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting when you
apply it to the conversation wewere just having about the
history of the DV movement.
Right, the reality is is thatin the beginning, in the infancy
, of being able to get domesticviolence as something that was
determined to be illegal, it wasphysical abuse that they were
talking about, right, it wasonly physical abuse that was
really recognized and so,because of that, places like

(24:17):
shelter or emphasis on legalaction, like criminality
punishments, that would be likereal time in prison and stuff,
that was really the focus.
But as our society has changed,as our economies changed, as
earnings between men and womenhave changed and things, we have
seen and really had to addressthe really kind of intricate
tactics of abusers that gobeyond just physical abuse,

(24:41):
right, and so I think that's whyit's important to go beyond
just shelter, right, if somebodyneeds to be physically safe
tonight to stay alive, shelterhas to exist and we will exist.
Our phone will always beanswered 24 hours a day, 365
days a year, because,unfortunately, women are in
danger, right, but the realityis, majority of our clients are
experiencing emotional abuse andverbal abuse than are

(25:05):
experiencing physical abuse.
The truth is, every single 100%of victims of domestic violence
are experiencing emotionalabuse and verbal abuse.
For a lot of our clients whoare only experiencing emotional
or verbal abuse, they are notyet noticing physical abuse.
I say not yet because of course, unfortunately, things could
escalate and they could becomephysically abusive or dangerous.

(25:25):
But in those times it can bereally beneficial to focus on
our non-residential services, tohave sort of a longer runway to
leaving the abusive home ormore support to understand
exactly what's going on in thesevery manipulative dynamics or
the you know the things that aregoing on at home where she's
having just a really hard timepointing to.

(25:45):
I don't know exactly what he'sdoing that's wrong, but I know
that it doesn't feel safe, Iknow that I feel scared, I feel
like I'm on eggshells, I feellike I can't, you know, have my
needs met financially withoutpermission or you know some of
these things going on.
And so our non-residentialservices really came about from
helping women and really gettinginto the cracks and nuts and

(26:07):
bolts of the really intricatetactics that you know, the
manipulation and the ongoingabuse post-separation and the
use of the court system tocontinue abusing her during the
divorce proceedings.
And so I always say I am,ironically, the chief
residential officer who believesthat majority of victims of
domestic violence shouldn't cometo shelter.

(26:28):
They should start in ournon-residential services to
really get that individualizedsupport.
I appreciate you bringing upsafety planning, jan.
We've talked about this on thepodcast before, but I'd be a bad
advocate if I didn't say inthis moment, in this moment, you

(26:51):
know, safety planning ishelping her identify what she's
already doing to stay safe andthen sort of adding in the
details of other things shecould do to increase her safety.
But safety planning to yourpoint of the word safe, maria,
safety planning never impliesthat she can be safe.
We're never saying what are yougoing to do to get yourself
safe?
Right, because she can't be incontrol of whether or not he's
abusive.
He chooses to be abusive or not.
We can help her do some thingsto try to keep herself safer,
but we can't necessarily She'llnever be safe safe until he

(27:13):
chooses not to abuse.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, I heard I guess it wasAmy in our office the other day
say you know, if it were up towomen, we would have fixed this
Right.
If it were up to women, wewould have fixed this right.
If we could, we would haveright.
And so abuse won't stop untilabusers stop abusing.
I loved how you used the phrasea longer runway, and I've heard
you say so many times the shortstay in a shelter.

(27:36):
If he's cut up your driver'slicense and your credit card
that takes six to eight weeks tofind.
Well, you can't get a job, youcan't check out a library book,
you can't go to a motel or ahotel if you don't have ID and a
credit card.
So it's very, very strategicand I think we have to be
strategic in helping her be moresafe.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Can she ever be safe?
Yeah, yeah I think that's agreat way of putting it and
again, the focus individually onher and the time in which to
really go through that is reallywhere our non-residential
services shine and they'rereally able to get into that.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Because even if a client correct me if I'm wrong
but even if a client wants tomove, to get out and go to our
shelter, if they do have time toget a copy of that driver's
license, to sock away a littlebit of money, time to get a copy
of that driver's license, tosock away a little bit of money
to be sure that she's able toget out shot records and, you
know, birth certificates so thatit can help her on down the

(28:32):
line.
It's like a training camp forgetting out.
Now don't get me wrong.
If she needs to go, she needsto go, right, but if she does
have, I hear you say, four wallsand a roof, particularly
because we are full most all thetime.
Now, that's not to discouragepeople from calling us, but we
also, our helpline, has allthese other resources up their
sleeves that if we're full wehave access to other, you know,

(28:57):
facilities.
But yeah, it takes so much.
It's not just as easy as sayingwhy doesn't she just get out?
And of course that's my mostunfavorite question, because
just as easy as saying whydoesn't she just get out?
And of course that's my mostunfavorite question, because the
question ought to be why doeshe do it in the first place?
Why is this particular crime,this and sexual assault?
Why are those crimes, the twocrimes that the onus of ending

(29:17):
them is on her victim, rightyeah?

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, and I think that, like that, plays into the
conversation that you werebringing up.
Maria too of you know, intalking about shelter and
whether non-residential services, it does seem really important
for people to understand whatare those danger signs, because
there are a lot of those dangersigns that could be contributed
to risk factors for domesticviolence or concerns regarding

(29:43):
her safety, where shelter couldbe really necessary and an
immediate need, and our hotlineis trained at having those
conversations and talkingthrough what those different
risk factors are and being ableto see and then being able to go
.
You know, I hear that you werecalling to specifically ask
about shelter.
Would you be interested instarting with an advocacy intake

(30:04):
at our Lucas location or theflip side?
Right, they wanted an advocacyintake and saying absolutely,
and also we want you to knowthat when and if you need us and
you need shelter, this phonecall gets answered 24 hours a
day We'd really encourage you tocall back because we're
concerned for your safety,exactly.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
So up to this point, we've been talking about
domestic violence from an agencyor organization perspective, or
even the movement againstdomestic violence.
Let's switch now to talk aboutfirst responders and frontline
service providers.
Jan, help us understand theimportance of the domestic
violence high-risk team,multidisciplinary task forces

(30:43):
and domestic violence fatalityreview teams.
What are those teams and how dothey function?

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, well, each one of the ones that you mentioned
will function slightlydifferently, but the one thing
that is the common thread isthat it's bringing the different
systems together to focus in on, and hopefully better serve,
the clients that need us.
For example, the high-risk teamis actually a group of folks
that are you on the?

(31:08):
Do you go to that?
Our director of advocacy,Laurel, goes to that.
Yeah, a domestic violencehigh-risk team is grouped up,
professionals within differentsystems that come together and
help identify who is at the mostrisk, who is the most risk of
dying, who's the most risk ofrecidivism and who is at the
most risk, who is the most riskof dying, who's the most risk of
recidivism and who is thehighest risk offenders.
In fact, with that, thedomestic violence high-risk team

(31:34):
is followed by a high-riskoffenders court where these
perpetrators are identified andstronger holds are put on them.
It may be an ankle bracelet, itmay monitor.
It may be an ankle bracelet, itmay monitor.
It may be a stiffer sentence.
But it is the courts and theshelters and the DA's office and
the service providers that allcome together to see how can we

(31:58):
intersect here.
The Dallas County IntimatePartner Fatality Review Team is
an amazing group of people whocome together to honor a
victim's life by reviewing herdeath and at the end of the day,
we want to be able to say couldthat have been prevented, or
how do we prevent the next one?
And so to know what happened,how it happened.

(32:22):
Was there a history of domesticviolence?
Had she ever gone to thehospital?
Had she been seen in any of theshelters?
Had he been on probation?
And this whole group.
We go around the table and it'slike did you see her?
Did you see her?
Did school have anything to do?
Was CPS involved?
And what we found?
We've been going a little over10 years and what we found at

(32:42):
first was there was nointersection that with fatality
review team.
She didn't get a protectiveorder, she didn't go to a
shelter, she didn't disclose ata hospital, which was at first
just kind of overwhelming to mebecause I'm like we're talking
about this all the time.
We've been here for 40 years.
But then I kind of turned thathalf-empty glass into a

(33:03):
half-full one and realized thatwhere there is intersection she
doesn't die.
And so the teams come together,each with a little bit
different focus, whether it isreviewing the homicides or it is
pointing out who the high-riskoffenders.
The mayor has amultidisciplinary task force
that also can come together, andone of the things I do like

(33:26):
about that is we can absolutelyidentify some areas where we can
all go to work at thelegislative levels that you know
.
If we see the opportunity for anew bill or for not supporting
a bad bill, you know otherthings come out that can be a
resource to her in the long run.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
I always like when you talk about too, jan, about
how the fact that you know wedon't work in silos right that,
because there is a likelihoodthat she, or the hope is that
all of these different groupswould have contact with the
victim or the offender, that wewould all have an opportunity to
really support her offender,that we would all have an

(34:05):
opportunity to really supporther.
And so in being in thesemeetings, it also gives us the
chance to understand eachother's role, understand each
other's language, learn fromeach other, learn you know
different techniques that wecould do as far as things to say
that would be trauma-informedor supportive.
Provide that domestic violenceeducation.
Sometimes I know I, when I go,I learn something about the
legal world every single timeand exactly how that works.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
And I bet they learn more from you with the advocacy
role I really do.
But you know, some of theseteams sprang out of a lawsuit
here in Dallas In 1985, twobattered women actually sued the
city of Dallas.
They felt they had not receiveddue process and protection and
they won this out of courtsettlement.
But part of it was that we allhad to come around the table and

(34:49):
I was there and I remembereverybody kind of pointing at
everybody else saying, well, youjust hate women, well, you
don't do your job, and you knowthat kind of thing.
And what we realized severalyears later was that we can't
shelter enough unless the policemake an intervention there.
And it doesn't matter how manypeople the police arrest if in
fact you know, the courts arenot following through on legal

(35:12):
ramifications and accountability.
And so we again we don't workin a silo that we need police,
we need the city, we need eachother.
You know, I remember I'm kindof a competitive person, as you
may know, right, and when Istarted out we were the smallest
kid on the block and I rememberthinking, oh, someday, and why,
you know, but we don't haveenough beds to shelter.

(35:35):
We have to work together.
My tone has totally changedinto yeah, we all have to be
working in the same directionQuality over quantity right,
yeah, but I think too, the casewhere where they sued am I wrong
in in knowing that?

Speaker 3 (35:50):
um, they sued because there was this idea that that
the police officers were nottaking the, the calls seriously,
they were not providing thesupport.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
It was just sort of that like spend the night away
from each other and thenwhatever worse than that, we
have stories of police officerswalking into the house, putting
his hand on his badge and sayingyou all are divorced now.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Or I've heard of ones where it's, you know, back in
the day of it being.
You know, if you call thepolice again, I'm going to
arrest you.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
First call shame on him.
Second call shame on you.
So these so these table.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
You know these meetings really came about to
work together, but it was alsothe space to be like, hey, you
know, to maria I can't help butkeep going back to it, you know
again, if she doesn't have ahuge black eye in the moment
really helping police officersunderstand, or er nurses
understand, or cps workersunderstand, like what is it that
they should be looking for andwhy should that that thing

(36:43):
matter, right?
Why should you walk in and andsee two people arguing and not
just write it off as a maritaldispute?
Like what should you be lookingfor to be those, those warning
signs, right?
I?

Speaker 2 (36:53):
remember, and I learned it from a client.
I've learned so much fromamazing staff, but I've learned,
I learned from a client.
Um, she was being interviewedby the morning news, I think or
some, and I sat in with her justso she wasn't there by herself
and you know, they asked abouther physical abuse and she goes.
No, he never hit me.
And I was thinking I know yourstory.

(37:16):
He would stand on her feet andhe'd grab her by her hair and
he'd shake her like this, andyou know it was.
He was incredibly abusive, buteven she didn't.
She goes.
I wish I could point to a blackeye, then I could show the
whole world what he does to me,but unfortunately, even the
victim didn't realize howabusive that was.
Now, this is way back and uh.

(37:36):
But I learned at that momentthat just because he didn't hit
her, it's not that he didn'thurt her Right, but also the
intentionality behind abusers tonot hit her.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
It's not that he didn't hurt her right, but also
the intentionality behindabusers to not hit her so that
she can't prove it in a placewhere it doesn't show, or yeah?
Absolutely so having that,those conversations about what
to you know, look for and whatto notice and why his behavior
versus her behavior couldpotentially show you well one
person's calm because they'renot scared right.
One person's freaking outbecause they're terrified.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
And how does that look to a rookie cop who goes
out to that house and she isjust flipping around, just like
you know?
Like you say, that's becauseshe's scared, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
I really appreciate learning that.
Was it 10 years, you know, whenyou guys started with fatality
review?

Speaker 2 (38:18):
it's from the fatality review meetings that
screenings within ERs started tooccur, right Well hopefully
they were occurring, because theJoint Commission on Hospital
Accreditation requires you tohave a DV protocol in place, but
it was in a notebook on a shelffor many, many of those
facilities.
And so what we started doing isat fatality review, when we saw

(38:39):
cases where she went from oneER to another ER, to another ER
and nobody asked her, nobodysaid, are you safe in your own
home?
And then, of course,understanding why, she might say
absolutely yes, I'm fine, don'tworry about anything.
But we then turned that into aneffort within the medical
communities of when to ask, howto ask, what to ask, and I think

(39:03):
, yeah, there's several thingsthat have come out of those
fatality reviews or even themayor's task force that have
changed legislation.
Dallas police have to issue.
Well, throughout the state, allpolice must issue a
notification to adult survivorsof domestic violence.
Where it's a little blue cardis what we call it here in
Dallas, because it's a blue cardbut on it lists Genesis and

(39:24):
Family Place and Mosaic and someof these other resources.
But we started monitoringthrough our helpline.
Did you get a blue card andstart calling the substations as
to why they're not passing themout when they go out on these
calls.
So, yeah, it really matters.
And back to your point, mariawhat's the point of all of these
?
Each one has its own agenda,but the things that have come

(39:45):
out of it have been really,really amazing.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
I think there's some really important background
about these teams and how theyfunction and how they were
founded.
I want to remind listeners thatwe did an episode several
months ago with DetectiveBrandon Wooten about domestic
violence high-risk teams.
You can find that in ourpodcast library.
It gives you a lot ofinformation about how they work
and function and all the goodthat they can do for your

(40:09):
community.
And as valuable as all of theseteams are, women are still
being murdered by their partners.
It stands to reason that someof the contributing factors may
be that interventionopportunities are being missed
by formal and informal serviceproviders.
So to these points, I haveseveral questions and, jan, I'm

(40:29):
going to start with you.
Are referrals being made toagencies regardless if a third
party called police?

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Right, right, if a neighbor calls the police, or a
pastor or priest calls thepolice, or a witness, or a
witness, absolutely, a witness.
Absolutely the police willrespond.
They're supposed to respond andduring the interview with the
victim and with the perpetrator,they are given the information
about Genesis and some of theother local resources.

(40:58):
Yeah, absolutely, it doesn'thave to be the victim that calls
, it doesn't have to be theperpetrator.
And, even more important, ifyou are a bystander, if you are
a witness, if you suspectsomething, you need to do
something.
I've had many friends call meand say you know, I hear this
screaming across the alley and Idon't know what to do.
And I'm like you don't knowwhat to do.
How do you not know what to do?

(41:20):
If you heard somebody torturingan animal back there, you would
definitely call the police orSPCA or something.
But I don't understand that.
I don't.
I don't understand it because Iwouldn't do it this way, but
there are people who I don't.
Should I get involved?
Should I not say anything?

Speaker 1 (41:35):
What if it becomes a moral debate.
Yes, you should say something.
Yeah, you should.
Yeah, you should.
Let's talk about screenings andreferral opportunities.
How can those take place atlocations or businesses that the
victim is likely to visit, suchas their salon, their hair
salon, right?

Speaker 3 (41:52):
I think.
So the thing that we alwaysencourage is that people just
become aware of what are some ofthe warning signs, what are
some of the things that a victimmight say or how she might
contradict herself or how shemight present in her behavior.
That would just cue you thatsomething may be going on.
We're not expecting the generalpublic to become experts on

(42:12):
domestic violence.
We just, like you were sayingabout witnesses and everything
we just want people to taketheir gut seriously.
If you're talking to a friendor a customer, or if you're an
ER nurse and you're talking andsomething in your gut is telling
you that there's something here, first of all, we want you to
just really boldly ask like areyou feeling unsafe in your home?

(42:35):
Is anybody making you feelafraid?
Because if they are, I justwant you to know that you're not
alone and I know somebody whocould help you Right.
And so just boldly asking thequestion.
And even if that person deniesbecause again, we've talked
about this many times on thepodcast denial is a very normal
coping strategy and protectivestrategy in domestic violence.
So it's very likely that she'sgoing to deny.

(42:58):
It's more likely than not thatshe's going to say oh, no, no,
no, no, I'm fine, everything'sfine.
I always just really encouragepeople to follow it up with.
Well then, just know that I'mworried about you and when
you're ready or if you needanything, I'm here for you.
Again, because, like we talkedabout earlier, one of the most
common tactics in an abusiverelationship is that isolation,
the knowledge that a victimwould have, that somebody is out

(43:20):
there that she could call.
She went six months withouttalking to him.
If she needed to, she couldreach out to that one person.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
It's absolutely a safety factor but there are
other ways, like in the placesthat you were talking about.
If I owned a washitaria, itwould be all over the bulletin
board.
If I were an ob-gyn, I wouldhave where you sign in on the
time you arrived and that thatclipboard um, are you safe home?
If you want to speak with oneof our physicians, please know.
Or whatever.

(43:48):
At the hair salon, I remembergoing to a training when I was
with the Department of Justice.
We went up to Philadelphia to asalon training school, like a
hairdresser's school, and theywere teaching them about.
If you see a patch of hairmissing, have the nerve to say
and there are professions thattouch me, my manicurist, for
example them about.
If you see a patch of hairmissing, have the nerve to say
you know it's.
And there are professions thattouch me my manicurist, for
example we tell our nail salonand our hair salon people a lot

(44:12):
of stuff, right, and I think weneed to give them the tools
those, those professions, thetools to be able to say I'm
worried about you.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
We've also seen in restaurants and even in churches
, in the stalls, in the bathroom, even just something hung up
that has numbers and everything.
So I do think that education,or that you know, I also think
something that has improved overthe years is back in the day,
it was like a picture of a womanwith a giant black eye and
she's crying, and I think thereare ways in which there are
women who are activelyexperiencing abuse who would

(44:42):
look that picture and go, ohwell, that's not me, because I
don't have a black eye, like youwere saying a second ago.
And so I think a lot of theliterature and a lot of ways
that people are doing this isrecognizing those other signs or
putting out information in asmany areas in as many ways as
possible.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
You just brought up a second ago in restaurants and
we have one of our heroes, amember of our men's auxiliary, a
guy named Kevin Lillis who is ahospitality owner.
He's very well known in thehospitality industry and he
began the National Associationof Hospitality Against Domestic

(45:17):
Violence and so he actually inall his restaurants will have a
decal on the inside of the stallof the women's restroom saying
if you do not feel safe, call,and it has Genesis number here
in Dallas.
Or you can ask for the ShirleyTemple drink or the special
drink, or come up to the bar andask for Sheila.
They will get you out the backdoor.

(45:38):
So I'm envisioning somebodythat maybe is on a first date or
feeling, you know,uncomfortable, it isn't going so
well and you know uncomfortable, it isn't going so well and you
know she wants out and to beable to have to know you can
rely on somebody that'll get youout that back door and into a
Lyft or Uber or wherever youwant to go.
I just think if everybody didthat.
I spoke to a group last night.
It was a sorority group andthey were saying, well, what can

(46:01):
we do?
And I said, if we ever landed,think of us as a united group,
if we ever landed on an issuethat was incredibly important to
violence against women and all400,000 Cayamagas call their
elected officials on oneparticular day, I think we'd be
heard.
So I think it's everything fromlet your voice and your vote be

(46:22):
heard, to be willing to standup and take a stand and I've
done it well and I've done itpoorly where I've been in a
store and just say you know,tell me why you have that black
eye.
And it turned out to be not ablack eye, anyway.
So what have I lost?
Nothing.
I haven't lost anything.
But had it been somebody hadhurt her.

(46:45):
I was right there with thecards and the phone numbers and
the resources.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
I feel like the common theme thread here is the
taking it seriously.
Right, yeah, you feel likesomething's off.
Say something.
You were talking about thewitnesses calling the police.
You know it just continues tobe that see something, say
something, where we're trying togo in so many areas of our
society because for so long it'sbeen oh well, that's behind
closed doors, They'll handle it.

(47:11):
Don't kind of get in theirbusiness, kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
I can't encourage people enough to call their
elected officials.
I was sharing with a group lastnight how that first day when
there was an executive orderthat wiped out all funding for
nonprofits, any kind of services, rape crisis, on and on.
I immediately called ourSenator, senator Cornyn's office
, and, I promise you, I didn'teven tell him who I was, and the

(47:37):
chief of staff picked up thephone and said well, hi, jan, I
expected to hear from you today.
I'm like well good, yeah, wellgood, I'm on a speed dial, right
, so anyway.
Anyway, we all can do something.
This is not an issue that canbe left on the steps of a
fatality review or the steps ofthe police or the DA's office.
We all have to be prepared toturn each to the other and say

(47:58):
I'm scared for you, and there ishelp and hope.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Yeah there is a lot of layers here.
There are a couple of otherthings I want to get to before I
let you go, and one of them inparticular is the LAP Lethality
Assessment Protocol.
Are police departmentsconducting LAPs across the board
?
Let's just focus on DallasCounty?
Is that happening, or are theregaps in the chain of custody of

(48:21):
those documents?

Speaker 3 (48:22):
They are happening.
So we have a commitment fromthe Dallas Police Department to
be doing lethality assessmentson all domestic violence calls.
So if a 911 calls, it comes init's domestic violence.
The officer goes to the scene.
He's supposed to take thevictim through a series of
questions.
That's really assessing for therisk of really escalated and

(48:43):
severe violence or homicidewithin this situation.
And so we do.
There are other departments thatnot everybody across the state
is doing it.
We hear more and moredepartments taking it on and I
think that's such an incrediblething because you know it's
researched, it's standardized,it's evidence-based to
demonstrate a likelihood forfuture violence, a likelihood

(49:03):
for escalated violence andpotentially for this person to
be murdered right, and I thinkit's just so important, not only
because it means we're takingit seriously.
We're asking the question,we're saying very clearly are
you afraid?
Has this happened to you?
Do you need help?
But then we're able to reallylook at what are those risk
factors and take those riskfactors really seriously, even

(49:24):
if they're ones that are notnecessarily the very blunt,
obvious things like a black eye,like we've been talking about
Right, right, right, right, andit gives the next step, which is
the referral straight intoGenesis or the family place that
that call is made at the scene.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
You know, are there some women who don't want to
fill it out?
You bet.
There was an article in thepaper not long ago about how
some people took a sampling ofLAP forms and only they found
that 10% weren't being completedand they were sort of looking
to the police.
Well, they took a sample of 50and so there were five that

(50:02):
weren't complete.
Well, I would say that wasprimarily because somebody
didn't want to complete them.
It wasn't the downfall of theDallas police.
The chief of police is verydedicated to the lethality
assessment.
It can reduce homicide, so it'sa really important piece.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
We are really hopeful about, in always talking about
it, that it would increase thenumber of referrals.
Maria, we don't again.
We know that DPDs committed todoing them.
We know that they're being done.
We do feel like we want to justconstantly be affecting
positively the referral part ofit.
Right, that we can increase theamount of victims that are

(50:41):
getting in direct contact.
We were talking about fatalityreview earlier, jan and the you
were talking about the fact thatit previously we went around
the table and nobody had hadcontact with it.
Well, horrifically, that's kindof still happening and so we
are still having conversationsabout how do we increase those
referrals.
It's not that the referralsaren't being offered, but the

(51:02):
ability to really connect withher.
In that moment we just it's anexample of how we're always
looking for what's the spacethat we could be doing better,
what's the space that we couldbe doing more effectively?
That you know, in that momentit's important for people, for
victims, to understand that shedoesn't have to come into
shelter.
I think a lot of times she'safraid that if we're, if the

(51:22):
police officers, so what?
What happens is when they dothe assessment, if there is a
concern regarding the risk, theofficer will call Genesis or a
family place on the phone sothat the victim can talk to an
advocate immediately.
And we find that there's a lotof times where she's really
afraid that she's going to haveto do something right then.
Right that she's going to haveto come into shelter, right that

(51:43):
second.
And there are women who do comeinto shelter right in that
moment and seek get safe rightin that moment.
But in a lot of times it's areally overwhelming moment.
There's high trauma, she islike exhausted and she's scared
about what's going to happennext.
And so the benefit of thatreferral and of that contact is
just knowing that we're thereand being able to say of that

(52:05):
referral and of that contact isjust knowing that we're there
and being able to say, whenyou're ready, we can sign you up
for we could schedule her anadvocacy intake or an illegal
intake or a counseling intakeright there on the phone, and it
not just be shelter, butsometimes that's even a little
too much in that moment, alittle too overwhelming, and so
we're just able to say here'swhat we can offer you when
you're ready.
And then we do see that thereare women who call back, who you

(52:26):
know I talked to you severalweeks ago with a police officer
and now I do want to schedulethat counseling appointment.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
I swear I remember this client who the husband was
still in the house, he hadn'tleft, but he was in the house
and they gave her theseresources and basically, right
in front of the police officer,she just ripped it up and just
threw it in his face.
And I'm sure it would have beenhuman nature for the cop to go
out and just say, well, that'syour problem, lady, right.

(52:52):
But I ask, why would she ripthat up, why would she destroy
that and throw it in the cop'sface, the police officer's face?
Well, the abuser's sittingright there.
It was safety planning and oneway she knew how and she threw
all those pieces of scrap away,except for 214-946-HELP.
She kept that number betweenthe lining and the sole of her

(53:15):
shoe and eventually came intoGenesis because that police
officer did what he or she wassupposed to do.
I'll never forget that clientbecause it really it doesn't
matter their reaction If you aska friend and they get mad at
you.
It doesn't matter theirreaction, it's about doing the
right thing.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
I think that's a really important reminder of the
responsibility of not just lawenforcement in these cases, but
also the rest of us.
So, family and friends, youpointed out there are specific
cases that we read about in themedia that we almost can't
believe that this woman wasmurdered by her husband or
intimate partner because theyhad the perfect life.

(53:52):
They defined success in Americaa successful marriage or
successful career, financiallyaffluent and so on and perhaps
in some of these cases no onethought to ask her are you safe?
Are you experiencing abuse?
Tell me what's happening withyou.

(54:14):
What can we say to her?
People who are listening, whomay be concerned about someone
but are afraid to say somethingto that woman or that individual
?
What resources can we give them?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Well, I haven't.
I've been involved with thefatality review for about five
years now and in the reviewing Ialways love how you say that,
jan, that we are honoring her bytrying to review what happened
and see like where where thingscould have been different.
There's no magic formula todetermining whether or not this
relationship is going to end inmurder and this one isn't.

(54:49):
But there there are these riskfactors and what I have heard
repeatedly within these meetingsis family and friends who,
after was discovered that shehad been murdered, popped up
pretty quickly saying, well, hedid do this weird thing, or
there was never any abuse, buthe was very financially

(55:09):
controlling, he got reallyjealous and didn't want her to
go to brunch with ourgirlfriends anymore.
And so there's just been thispattern for the last five years
and before, of course right, Iknow this to be true because of
the research in domesticviolence there's been this where
family and friends may say,well, we didn't have any
knowledge that there was abuse,but there were these things, and

(55:31):
I think that but is soimportant, and I think that but
is kind of maybe the point ofthis podcast of like that their
gut knew something was notnormal in this relationship was
not okay.
One time when I was on the standJan and I provide expert
testimony within court I wastestifying in a divorce trial
and so his attorney, theabuser's attorney I had

(55:54):
testified saying that the clienthad reported feeling afraid and
sad and hurt within hercounseling sessions.
And so the divorce attorneysaid well, you know they're
getting a divorce.
Isn't it normal to be upset?
And I said it's normal to besad.
It's not normal to be afraid.
It's not a normal feeling tofeel afraid of your partner, to
fear being punished by them.

(56:14):
And so I think it's imperativethat family and friends
recognize and again trust thatgut feeling of there's not,
there's something here that'snot normal.
I can't tell you that it means100% she's going to be murdered,
but I can tell you that there,if there's a 1% chance,
shouldn't we say something?
Shouldn't we say, hey, he'sdoing this and it does not seem

(56:36):
right, it doesn't seem okay thatyou're being treated this way.
Have you thought about talkingto somebody?
I'm always really careful tomake sure, maria, that I say
that I don't think it's fair toever um sound like family and
friends should become experts ondomestic violence.
Domestic violence iscomplicated.
It's contextual, it's a pattern, it's, it's got layers, like

(56:58):
you were saying earlier, and soI really think, like, leave the
expertise to Genesis, but justtake the risk of saying, hey,
you should go talk to Genesis.
And I do say take the riskbecause, like you said, jan, we
do hear a lot that people areafraid of upsetting the victim,
of upsetting the person.
They don't want them to be madthat they were judging their

(57:18):
relationship.
What I've found, especially in18 years of speaking to victims
of domestic violence and youknow we've had podcasts about
stages of change- we have yeahso we have victims who come in
and they don't identify asvictims of domestic violence,
but they're whoever told them,their CPS worker or their friend
, whoever said why don't you gotalk to those ladies at Genesis?

(57:38):
So she's sitting in front of mesaying, well, it's not that bad
, or sometimes he does this, butit's okay.
And so what I found is when Isay, from a genuine place of
care, even as a person who'sjust met her that day, hey, I
want you to hear me say I'm nothere to judge you, but I am
worried about you.
That has always been receivedreally in an appreciated way,

(57:59):
right, Nobody's ever.
Maybe there's this um,upsetness, because they're
really difficult words to hear.
She's actively trying toprotect herself from this
reality, right, um.
But the anger is not at me andyou said it earlier, so I can't
help but repeat it again.
I will gladly have her be madat me if it means she stays
alive, right, right.

(58:20):
And so I think to your point ofwhat are the referrals?
What are the things?
Genesis is absolutely thereferral.
Don't feel like you have to bean expert on the things, but
call us, call our hotline, andask questions.
What you know, my sister or myfriends going through this.
What do I say to her?
And we can answer some of thosequestions.
We actually have a friends andfamily group that we offer at
our Lucas location where peoplecan come in and get some of the

(58:43):
information on the dynamics ofdomestic violence and the
education so that maybe, if theydo want to be able to tell her
what is verbal abuse, they couldexplain that a little bit more
clearly.
So we have a lot of referrals.
We have a lot of education onour website, right.
A lot of referrals.
We have a lot of education onour website, right.

(59:04):
Genesis shelterorg has a lot ofeducation materials on there
that they could use um to beable to talk to her about it.
But I think the biggest one is,you know, again, if it feels
like there's something here, say, hey, this dynamic seems a
little off between you and yourhusband.
Have you ever felt afraid ofhim?
Like, ask the question.
And if the question is yes, Ifelt afraid of him, say I think

(59:24):
it'd be really important for youto talk to somebody.
It doesn't mean that we have toexpect her to change anything
immediately or do anything,because we don't want to put
pressure on her, but it doesmean that we can just be really
clear and it would be importantfor her to talk to someone.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
You know it's almost easier.
I was thinking while you weretalking about that that if it is
a friend, a girlfriend andyou're at lunch and you can talk
about, you know that seems alittle weird to me.
But raising two daughters I hadheard so many stories about.
When parents try to jump in onit, then you create the
star-crossed lovers that theworld is against us and your

(59:58):
parents don't like me and youknow, almost digging in and
supporting the abusive side ofit, protecting him in that
relationship, and so it's notalways, it doesn't always fall
on welcoming ears when you doreach out.
And again, I'm not worriedabout the checker and Kroger
being mad at me.
I always say I had to go to adifferent Kroger but I just

(01:00:20):
that's all right.
But when it's a child and you,you risk losing that child, but
still you say it because if youdon't, you really risk losing
that child.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
Well, but I'd argue that oftentimes in those
situations it's because insaying something to that child,
there was the you have to dothis.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
That's how you say it .
Right and apparent, thoughexactly that may be appropriate.
Right, that's how we operate.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Yeah, but in other situations.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
You're not telling them they have to do something,
but you are saying you're sortof being a mirror to.
There's something here that'sconcerning I'm worried about you
because you deserve to be safe.
I just want to clearly ask areyou okay, are you?
Is anybody hurting you?
Going back to the lethalityassessment, it's interesting
because the research behind thelethality assessment of course

(01:01:05):
determines that there are somethings that are really high risk
indicators for homicide, likestrangulation.
If a woman experiencesstrangulation one time, she's 11
times more likely to be killedby that person.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
And just to elaborate on that a little bit for
listeners, strangulation is morethan just being strangled to
death.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Right.
So strangulation.
The legal definition ofstrangulation is impeding breath
, and I always use that onebecause that means if anything
is done that even slightly makesit harder for you to breathe,
it's considered legalstrangulation.
So this could be squeezing you,it could be sitting on you, put
a pillow over your face,pushing you underwater, pushing
your face into the mattress,putting something over your head

(01:01:46):
.
We, a lot of our clients, willtalk about that.
Their partner held his hand upto their neck, didn't
necessarily squeeze, but held itin a way to demonstrate that he
could do that if he wanted to.
Dominance, yeah, I would evenconsider that strangulation for
the sake of this risk factor.
Right, right that if there'sanything in that realm, it's a
high indicator for a risk ofhomicide Physical abuse.

(01:02:09):
Of course, is a high riskfactor Alcohol or drug abuse in
the home guns being present.
We talked about this all thetime on the podcast Right Right.
But then there's other thingsthat are risk factors that maybe
people aren't so aware of.
One's like, if there is thepresence of a non-biological
child in the home, it actuallyincreases the risk factors of

(01:02:31):
homicide.
If there's financial abuse, 93to 99% of victims of domestic
violence report experiencingfinancial abuse.
So financial abuse is actuallya risk factor for homicide.
Controlling behavior so one ofthe things that there's been
ongoing research and one of therecent studies looked into, not
only just like physical abuse,but what was the physically

(01:02:54):
abusive behavior that maybedemonstrated the highest
likelihood of homicide?
Of course strangulation is thenumber one there, but it wasn't
a specific physically abusivebehavior.
It wasn't that slapping wasmore severe than pushing or
anything like that.
It was the presence of physicalabuse with controlling

(01:03:14):
behaviors, and I think that's amajor area that gets left off
all the time is well, he was,you know, I didn't know that he
was physically abusive, but I'veseen him be really controlling
to her.
And so I have just been talkinga lot about controlling
behaviors, that if you are awarethat your family or friend or
that somebody is experiencing alot of control within the

(01:03:35):
relationship, that that's athat's a risk factor of there
being some pretty serious abusehappening behind closed doors.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah, there's a lot here and a lot for people to
take in.
So if they weren't taking notesto your point, they should go
to our website,genesisshelterorg slash types of
abuse, and you can learn moreabout all the different types of
abuse that we've encounteredwith clients at Genesis Women's
Shelter and also find moreinformation, additional

(01:04:03):
resources, as well as thatnumber that Jan pointed out
214-946-HELP, 214-946-4357,where you can call us a loved
one, friend or a person whoreally cares about someone who
may be experiencing domesticviolence.
So, before I let you go, a lotof these cases are handled in

(01:04:24):
the media.
That's where we learn about.
You know, john killed Mary orMary was killed by John, as you
often point out, is asignificant headline.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Let's talk just for a minute about how the media is
portraying victims of domesticviolence as well as perpetrators
.
Well, I think that it continuesto have an emphasis on
sensationalism.
There can be five homicides inone day, but the one that the
media picks up is the guy whokilled her with a chainsaw.
So I find that in the mediathey still are trying to bring
out the absolute worst thingsthat somebody could kill

(01:05:05):
somebody with.
So the media isn't always ourfriend.
And if five were killed, andwe're talking about that one,
four went unnamed, they wentunserved, they went unhonored.
So correct me if you think I'mwrong on that, but I think the
media sensationalizes it, whichmakes it worse for somebody who
is wanting to leave, but they'reso afraid that that could be

(01:05:29):
them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Yeah, no, jen.
I think the point about mediasensationalizing things and the
way that we report them right, Ithink it's a really important
factor.
Think it's a really importantfactor, you know, in my
experience working with victimsof domestic violence again,
because the really common copingstrategy, survival, skill of
denial is really there andminimizing is a thing.
Oftentimes victims will look atthose headlines and go, oh well

(01:05:52):
, that's not me, because hehasn't done that thing.
And so in a lot of ways it'slike we have to be very careful
about how we talk about domesticviolence, because we don't want
to imply, and yet the media isimplying or straight up saying
that if it doesn't look likethis, then it's not domestic
violence, right, or it's notserious enough, it's not that
bad when the reality is.

(01:06:13):
Again, when I read thosearticles, I can go through and
hear financial abuse, emotionalabuse, jealousy, controlling
behaviors and go that's thedomestic violence, that's the
risk factors right there.
And so I think it's importantfor for not only the media to
take seriously in in how they'resaying these or or to be aware
of the sensationalism, becausevictims will read it and sort of

(01:06:35):
distance themselves from it inthat way.
But I think it's also importantbecause it just shows us that
just because you can't see theblack eye, just because you
can't see the violence, doesn'tmean that she's not a victim of
domestic violence.
Again, jan and I provide exportcourt testimony all the time
because we're oftentimes havingto explain how she's still a
victim of domestic violence justbecause she doesn't have a

(01:06:57):
black eye or pictures ofinjuries or, um, because a lot
of times the media has reallyput about this thing that like
you have to prove that you forsure, you have to have video of
him beating you, or there's noevidence.
And so then there's this spacewhere we're like, well, did it
really happen?
Was it really that bad for her?
So I think on both sides of itit's sort of this um, we

(01:07:19):
appreciate that they're talkingabout domestic violence?
Yes, we are, you know you and Ihave both done interviews on
financial abuse and on, so I dothink there's ways in which it
is getting better what they'retalking about and how they're
trying to put out informationabout domestic violence, but the
sensational headlines still arethe.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
They can be a problem .
Put on your counselor hat for asecond.
Don't you think all of us wantto think it's somebody else,
that this happens only to acertain group, and it doesn't
matter which group you'repointing to, it's just a group
other than mine, and somehowthat makes us feel safer, I
think.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
I know that we all avoid changing by avoiding and
we all avoid changing becausechanging is hard and you can't
change anything without losingsomething, even when you want to
change.
Even if I want to lose weightand that's the change I want to
do, well, then I lose thechocolate cake that I love,
right?
And so yeah, I think thatavoidance is a very normal

(01:08:13):
coping skill victim of domesticviolence is doing because she
doesn't want to lose her home,her neighborhood, her friends,
her job, her all the things thatshe might have to change in
order to get away from him,because he won't stop.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
But I heard a police officer say one time that, um,
you know it's harder for richwomen to get out because they
walk away from so much.
They walk away from everything.
And I said it doesn't matterwhat your net income is when you
walk away, you most often walkaway with nothing but the
clothes on your back.
And single moms are most.
Single moms live in poverty.

(01:08:51):
75% of single moms live inpoverty and that's whatever
status there was.
It drops immediately when shewalks out that front door.
But it doesn't matter the colorof your skin or where you went
to school or if you didn't go toschool.
This is what we refer to oftenas an equal opportunity epidemic
.
It knows no boundaries.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Jan and Jordan thank you for talking with me today.
Thanks for having us, Maria.
Thanks so much for listening.
Until next time, stay safe.