September 6, 2023 • 42 mins
In this episode, we're chatting with Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable. We're discussing how to make money podcasting, and the best way to go about getting started with it. Enjoy the show!
Bryan's Links
-- Website: https://soundsprofitable.com/
-- Twitter: https://twitter.com/soundsprofnews
-- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/sounds-profitable/
-- Podcasts: https://soundsprofitable.com/podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey everyone, Ashley here with RSS.com.
(00:19):
In today's episode, we're chatting with Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable.
We'll be discussing how to monetize your podcast and the best way to get started with it.
Enjoy the show.
So let's just get into it.
(00:41):
First of all, let's just jump right in and tell me a little bit about what it is that
you do, even though I know that's a very, very loaded question.
What is it that you do?
So first off, my favorite part about that is we have podcast movement coming up in August,
about a month away from now.
And I love when I get to interact with people who know what we do.
And then they introduce us to other people because they're just like, they take a shot
(01:03):
at it.
And I just sit back and I was like, what's their favorite part about what we do?
So I'm Brian Barletta.
I've been working in ad tech about 14 years.
I am a failed college, like a history teacher.
I did not succeed in that path.
I fell into advertising, mobile advertising originally, and got to be involved in the
initial specs of advertising and mobile apps.
It was a lot of fun.
(01:24):
Halfway through my career, I ended up working in podcasting.
We were an attribution company as a subset of an ad company called Ad Theory.
And we split off the team, Barometric.
I was one of the founding members there.
And we eventually sold to Claretos.
We were the first attribution company in podcasting.
And it was an absolute blast.
I stayed through the acquisition for a little bit.
(01:46):
And then I went over to Megaphone where I was the senior product manager of data and
monetization.
I was hired to help rewrite the ad server and improve flow.
They got an awesome opportunity to sell to Spotify.
I don't know if you know this, but it's incredibly difficult to sell a house when someone's ripping
up the carpet.
So we parted ways in August 2020 because they couldn't easily tell me that they were trying
to sell and I'm not great at taking hints.
(02:07):
What happened then was I had the opportunity, thanks to James Cridlin, to start writing
a little bit about podcasting.
I realized that the space had grown so massively.
And I think it was four or five years at that point that I've been working in it.
And there were people who didn't understand a download, a listen or stream and why the
three of those were different.
So James platformed us.
We ended our relationship with them earlier this year.
(02:28):
So two great years working together and we started writing.
Well, I should say I started writing.
It was a weekly newsletter all about podcasts, more focused on ad tech, but grew into the
business of podcasting, which is what it is today.
And so now today, which when is this episode going to air?
Maybe I can.
I believe it's going to air in September.
Okay.
(02:49):
Well, now today we have a Wednesday newsletter and a Friday newsletter.
The Wednesday is more of a thought piece, things to grow the whole space, educate you
on what's going on, give you material to work with and think through how we all collaboratively
lift the industry.
Friday is a recap, what we call the download.
And that is three articles basically that we've expanded on and some quick hits for
(03:13):
what you need to know to stay informed in the business of podcasting.
But considering this episode is coming out in September on August 2nd, we're watching
our daily newsletter.
We're recording this in July, by the way, for everybody out there keeping chronological
order.
Our newsletter is going to come out Monday through Thursday.
It's going to come out around three or four PM Eastern.
And the intent is for it to be an ad free newsletter, coalescing everything about the
(03:39):
business of podcasting that happened that day.
So really focus on advertising, content and marketing, all these key things.
And not only just what's happening in podcasting, but like what's happening in YouTube, right?
Currently right now, there's a huge issue about viewability in YouTube.
It's a closed market.
Everybody's telling people in podcasting today, you need to get into YouTube because that's
(04:02):
where additional monetization is additional discovery.
But YouTube's got its own problems.
The grass is always greener.
So we're trying to arm people with very quick explanations of what the article is and how
it relates to podcasting so people can share it, copy and paste it, or they can read it
and they can use it with clients.
It's very, it's a very thin newsletter, right?
It's like five to 10 points, a data point, and then there you go.
(04:25):
And that's our goal is to respect everybody's time and empower them.
But sounds probably has been so much more than written content.
We do podcast versions of all that.
We do live events every quarter.
Tom Webster left 18 years at Edison Research to come be my business partner.
And now we do quarterly live research.
All of that is freely available.
And we work really, really hard to just drive the industry forward.
(04:46):
So we have, as of right now, over 140 partners and we kind of fashion ourselves as a trade
association.
We provide them with consulting every month and access to our Slack channels and a little
bit more granular stuff.
People who are enterprising and are looking to just learn from everything we have out
there or ask us questions, we're here for it.
(05:06):
And we encourage everybody to do that.
But we price our structure and how we have 140 partners is sometimes people just need
to ask a really direct, unique question to them.
Sometimes they need help with a project.
And we are very, very thankful for everybody's support and growing our ability to help improve
this industry.
Well, and one of the things that struck me recently is, you mentioned that you like to
(05:28):
empower podcasters.
And that is so accurate because you guys just released an awesome glossary of terms.
And when you did that, it was just like, oh my goodness, these are things that I spout
off some of these terms all the time.
But a new person coming in, hearing all this jargon, it can get overwhelming.
And so that's just one of those things that I like the website because of all the things
(05:49):
that you guys share that actually helps a podcaster become more knowledgeable.
And so one of the things that comes up a lot of times whenever we start talking about monetization
is, you know, they're asking for, what are your click-through rates?
They're asking for, what are your downloads?
They're asking for all these numbers, you know, when sponsors are coming to you or you're
going to them.
How in the world does a podcaster, the little guy that just got his microphone, how does
(06:13):
he or she begin the crazy world of monetizing a podcast?
What would you say to them?
Well, let's first divide it, right?
If this is intended to be a career and to earn revenue and you to quit your job, you
to treat it like starting a business.
If somebody told me that they had zero investment and investment can be money or time and they
(06:34):
were going to start like a clothing business, I don't know how I would respond to them.
So when someone tells me that they've recorded 10 podcast episodes and they want to know
Brian, how do I quit my job?
I don't have feedback, right?
Because that's a big, that's a grand canyon of a jump you have to make there.
Referencing back to our road tripping and hiking stuff.
(06:54):
I think that people really need to separate it.
If you're doing podcasting because you love it, just do it, right?
It's a killer art form.
It's a great way to connect with people.
It's a great way to have fun.
If 20, there was a quote on Reddit at one point, like what would 20 or 30 people in
your living room look like?
That's a, that's a big crowd.
So be happy with it.
Our podcast only gets 300 downloads an episode and I'm not even remotely stressed about that.
(07:20):
Monetization there's so many different avenues.
If it's going to be valuable to you, you need to really just kind of figure out your priority.
Todd Cochran from blueberry said something that really, I really latched onto a long
time ago, which was, is it going to earn you burger money, car payment money or mortgage
money, right?
Like the three levels, if you think about it and you need to just determine how much
(07:43):
effort burger money is worth because advertising can be jumping through a lot of hoops.
So that's all to say that like, let's, we'll talk through a bunch of models here.
If you want me to dig into it, like all the different ways people can monetize.
But the thing I want to say is like, when you're small, the best thing you can do is
direct bundled relationships, right?
(08:04):
It is, there are shows out there that have a thousand listeners per episode that talks
specifically to incredibly important IT individuals at major companies.
And that podcast might earn half a million dollars a year because all the advertising
needs to do is close one sale to make a million dollars.
So half a million dollars to land a million dollar client for some in advertising, like
(08:28):
the margins there for that.
So when you come up with that, when what your content is, if you can figure out advertisers
that make sense there, but approach them, offer them something, make sure that that
dollar amount works for you, try and back it into a CPM to understand their value of
it.
If you believe you have an audience that can convert or that can provide them value that
is uniquely positioned, take your shot.
(08:50):
That's my first suggestion there.
The second is I think it's very smart to have ways for people to pay you directly.
I don't know why, but I got bit with the bug of learning more about what was happening
to Britney Spears during her trial.
And I found the toxic podcast and I binge listened to every episode and I would have killed for
(09:13):
like a buy me a coffee or something in their episode descriptions because I found easily
10 or $20 worth of value of that.
And I wasn't given the opportunity to do that.
I couldn't even subscribe to their podcast and Apple or directly.
There was nothing available or nothing in my face for me to say here is money.
And while I'm not a fan of like the Patreon model necessarily the monthly reoccurring
(09:35):
to do like a one time, right?
Just pick the $20 option, do one time and then cancel future months.
I think giving people the options to pay you is really smart.
I think that can be a real quick way to get support and to find your audience and then
not compromise on your values.
I mean, if you think about sounds profitable, well, the 140 partners that we work with help
finance our ability to speak our mind.
(09:56):
They have no editorial impact on our content.
So that's very similar there.
That Patreon that subscription is someone saying, keep doing this, please.
It entertains me and has value.
They may want to add free.
I don't necessarily think you need to go that way if you're big enough to have ads, but
they want to support you and they kind of just want to be included, right?
Read their name at the end of the episode.
(10:17):
Final one is ads.
You know, there's so many different ways to go about it.
It is harder when you're smaller, right?
If you have 250 downloads an episode and you have four ad impressions or ad insertion points
available, so four ads, and let's say you are just a rock star, you sold out at $25
CPM all four ad reads, that is a hundred dollars for that episode, right?
(10:42):
That's four different clients that you're having conversations with.
That's four different ad reads that you're getting approved, that you're providing them
reporting to at the end of it.
And each of them are only paying you $25.
Like for me, I don't think I could handle, I don't think it could justify a hundred dollars
to work with four people through email.
I think that that very quickly eats into your time.
So as you get bigger, there are more advertising opportunities, but I really push people to
(11:05):
explore the other ones, right?
The way to ask for money from the audience, the way to do sponsorship instead of advertising.
And I really want to differentiate.
Sponsorship is in the benefit of the publisher creating a bundle that someone, an advertiser
buys into.
Advertising is a CPA or CPM like a, or CPC, CPA, whatever.
Cost per thousand is cost per million is CPM.
(11:27):
Cost per acquisition is CPA.
Cost per click is CPC.
I always skip over them.
So I want to make sure I explain them there.
Advertisers like to work in that model because then they can buy across thousands or tens
of thousands of shows.
And that's how they buy everywhere.
So it is in a publisher's best interest to explore sponsorship.
Absolutely.
(11:47):
And one of the things that you said that really struck me is you said that with all of your
partners, none of them have an impact on your editorial.
And I think that's an important point to stress is I see far too many content creators.
They will let the sponsorship money influence what it is that they are creating about.
And this actually just came up recently because, you know, I was telling my husband we're working
(12:10):
on starting a food blog and I was saying that I can't stand lemon flavored anything.
And you know, one of the jokes was, well, what if a lemon company wanted to come and
sponsor me?
What would I do?
And I can't say that I would just be like, oh, well, let me just start writing about
lemon flavored everything because that's not authentic.
And so will you speak to me a little bit about what it's like to have a sponsor come on and
(12:33):
work with you, but not let it impact what it is you're saying?
So that's, I mean, like the lemon example is really fun.
If you look at some of the great bigger names and they can only do this because they've
established themselves or whatnot.
Like there are podcasters out there who could say like, I hate lemons, but this lemon company
has paid us to talk about lemons.
(12:54):
I know lemons won't kill you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat them.
But maybe you should because that, you know what I mean?
That people can have fun with it.
There are so many interesting ways to go about it.
It's very different than like an oil company wanting to sponsor a podcast about the environment,
you know, the lines are there.
It's not easy.
Like it's, it's really not easy.
I think the truth is, is the podcast advertisers don't expect you to change your content, especially
(13:18):
if you're smaller, they're buying into you because of what you have and they're trying
to see if it works, right?
They've either proven out that category or your archetyped, like, you know, female hosted
sports podcasts, right?
They know that those convert well for them or audiences that do really well with the
drive a lot of adult women listeners because they have more disposable income or all these
(13:40):
different things, right?
I don't think a lot of them are going to challenge you on your content, but I think it's incredibly
important for publishers to also be listeners or podcasters to also be listeners of their
show.
I, I don't know.
I mean, there's a handful of shows that I, I really want to listen to that just have
too many ads.
Like the team at iHeart does some really great stuff, but I think, you know, they're a little
(14:04):
bit on the, like we joke about how many ads are in an iHeart podcast, right?
It's usually four insertion points of three to four ads each.
Some of those ads are over a minute each, right?
I think this year I called it being whams when you're washing the dishes and you end
up in an, like an iHeart ad break, because what do you do?
You can skip it.
You got to be a listener to your show too.
(14:25):
You got to, you got to determine what's like, what's going to stop your momentum.
Momentum is the most important thing.
I mean, we have, there are a handful of people who are partners now, who, when we started
three years ago, likely passed on partnership because I didn't offer them anything editorial.
But now because we've become so neutral and valuable, they understand that by working
(14:46):
with us and talking to me and my subject matter is related to them, the more we spend time
together, the more I can reference them and bring them up and promote them organically
because I find the value in it, not because I was paid to do it.
So I think momentum is the key there.
I think that if you do not feel like you have enough momentum to, to skip that advertiser
(15:09):
and keep growing to get the advertisers you want, if you can't take that little bit of
a drought, it's probably not a good business model.
Well speaking of, you know, you were talking about how like you can't skip the ad.
What do you think about the podcasters who are opting for, they'll have the, you know,
the traditional RSS feed where it has all the ads on it, all the sponsorship things.
(15:31):
But then if you want a ad free version, you pay a little bit extra and you get it directly.
What do you think about those?
So I love bonus content.
I listened to a lot of actual play Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role playing game
podcasts.
And then I also listened to a bunch of kids podcasts.
So whenever someone's like, have you listened to the really cool pop culture one?
I was like, no idea, man.
(15:52):
Like I listened to, I listened to junk and I love it.
One of the ones I listened to did something really cool.
They have their bonus feed, which is paid for only has their bonus content.
It doesn't contain their ad free version of their main show.
And then you have to still subscribe to their main feed in the podcast directories.
The reason why I think this is so clever is that if you like another one, I was to do
(16:16):
Dungeons and Daddies puts everything in the Patreon feed.
That means that Apple and Spotify and wherever else I would listen doesn't recognize me listening
to the directory listing.
So their ranking isn't benefited by how rabbit of a fan I am.
I, they get my money, they get my attention, but their, their discoverability is hurt.
So this one world beyond numbers, it, uh, worlds beyond numbers, it, you still have
(16:39):
to listen to the main feed to get the show.
And then the, the, uh, subscription feed only gives you the bonus content.
My suggestion is follow that model.
Absolutely.
If someone's interested enough in paying you, they're happy to have two of your feeds in
the library.
It also gives you two options to be visible when people are scanning through things.
And I think that the thing to keep in mind is that the people who are willing to pay
(17:03):
for your content are also your most engaged audience.
I think it is generally a bad idea to go ad free with them.
I think people should do sponsorship models with that.
Um, back in the day when Hulu started, one of the things they did was you could, and
maybe they still do it.
Uh, you can watch like a seven minute ad at the beginning, or you could watch 17 minutes
(17:23):
of ads throughout the show.
And I'd be like, yeah, seven minute ad and I'll walk away.
Sponsored, like when you buy that feed, right?
When you buy into the ad free feed, if we, if the episode started off saying this episode
is brought to you ad free by state farm, I love my safe farm rep.
They've saved my life multiple times.
Check it out with this promo code.
Now back to the uninterrupted show.
(17:45):
Thanks to state farm.
It's kind of a, you know, an easy way to make sure that you are still getting to that audience
without really violating that trust.
And so I'm, I'm all for it.
I listened.
Let's see.
What do I subscribe to?
I think I'm going to subscribe to the
(18:05):
one.
Dory plus kids.
Oh, my wife subscribes to one Dory plus kids because even though we have Amazon music,
she does not want to listen to podcasts anywhere, but Apple music, Apple podcasts, Apple podcasts.
Wow.
What, why is that?
This is a fun one.
I think that podcast players are like browsers and not like streaming video destinations.
(18:26):
I think Spotify spent millions of dollars to prove that to us in the course of a year
that people are not really interested in having multiple podcast players or multiple music
players on their phone.
I have Amazon prime video, Netflix, Hulu.
I think I have paramount, uh, max Disney plus I have all of those because half the other
(18:49):
things that I pay for give me one of those three.
Oh, Apple TV.
Right.
But those are destinations.
They're not browsers.
I stubbornly use Safari.
We're on Chrome right now so we can record on Riverside, but it doesn't work very well
on Safari.
But like, I will stop going to certain websites because it doesn't work well with Safari because
I have a browser.
(19:10):
I like the performance.
How I like, I use it that way.
That's what I think podcast players are.
That's where I think, you know, when people are upset about how much Spotify damage quote
unquote Spotify did to this face.
No, I think they bought us five years of knowledge real early.
It's interesting because some people say like the opposite that Spotify is ruining podcasting.
So it's an interesting take.
(19:31):
I never thought of it that way.
I guess they bought that a little bit more.
I guess they're not a try.
Like just, just imagine that we also focus with Spotify too much on the content, right?
Like sure.
They've made some wild content plays.
They inflated the price.
They convinced production companies that they also needed to do growth and sales and all
these things.
People with not enough business acumen, we did their business plans during that boom
(19:54):
saying that this 10 X growth we saw can last for five more years.
That was bad, but they bought, uh, with it, they bought anchor huge, right?
They bought megaphone, whooshka, um, uh, pod sites, chartable.
Their ad tech game is on point.
Megaphone was one of the best ad sellers in podcasting period.
(20:14):
I mean, they used to be Pina.
They used to be a production company.
And then by getting further into ad sales and building a hosting platform or acquiring
rather, um, they, they pivoted the entire company away from production because in one
quarter they made what Pina made in the previous year.
So I don't know.
I think we're really hard on Spotify because it's easy to post, uh, point to archetypes
or Joe Rogan or, you know, call me daddy or call her daddy.
(20:37):
And like that, yeah, that's what my mom reads about.
But when I read about pod sites being acquired and attribution being free and podcasting,
it's a big deal.
Hmm.
Yeah, I guess I really do need to think about that a little bit more.
Fast.
It's okay to have someone.
Yeah, but if you want to have a demon, have a demon, have somebody to blame, it's super
(20:58):
okay.
Like it doesn't, I don't think if it drives people to be better and motivate themselves,
it's great.
But yeah, I mean, this was pirate radio.
This was podcasting hit 20 years and now at the 20 year point, like we've been disrupted
by major money in this space.
We're held hostage by the podcast players who won't give us more data, won't send us
any additional signals about listens and or agree on what a listen is between them.
(21:22):
It's a yeah, it can be really overwhelming, but there's no other channel like this.
Like I guess I can self host videos on my website, but if it's not on YouTube, no one's
going to watch it or tick tock or anything like that.
What other like besides a blog or a newsletter really, this is the most animated medium I'd
say that can exist on an open channel.
(21:46):
I guess my big fear was that like they'd wake up one day and be like, Oh, well podcasting
is not profitable.
Let's just kill it.
Cause they have, there's such a numbers game people.
Sure.
I think it costs them very little to support podcasting in their app.
I think that it's revenue positive.
And I think that worst case scenario, the podcast, uh, it, it gets them out of royalties
(22:07):
and it gets them away, uh, gets them more types of audio to sell.
So I think Spotify is a solid sales house.
I think there are a lot of people who just spend in audio on Spotify and I think they'll
continue to have options there.
Do I expect them to innovate at the same rate that they were before?
Um, not in ways that I'm excited about their, their visions around AI and what they could
(22:28):
do there are terrifying to me.
Um, but you know, uh, I don't think, I don't think they're going to wake up and turn it
off.
I also don't think that they have the engineering resources to just pull it out without damaging
the whole app at this point.
Well that's at least good news.
So now you had mentioned burger money or mortgage money.
(22:49):
Um, with the whole business plan thing, do you think podcasters need a business plan
in order to get there?
Well I don't have a business plan and I'm three years into this and just kind of winging
it.
Um, I don't know.
I mean, I think that if it is a business and your goal and it's a competitive market, like
what we started, there wasn't anybody else doing it.
So I'm trying to figure it out.
(23:10):
I'm trying to find peers in other industries and I'm still struggling on that end.
Um, I think in podcasting you have tons of peers, you have millions of peers.
And I don't think that it's any different than book publishing or, uh, you know, creating
YouTube content.
So I think that you should have a strategy and you should have benchmarks.
You should have a bare minimum that you're willing to do even if the number is zero or
(23:31):
negative and then you got to have lines.
You have to have a reassess it.
It is absolutely okay.
Three months into it to go, this is no longer fun.
And I'm negative money from it, but you need to determine like, how do you keep it fun?
How do you keep it light on the money?
I think, you know, uh, recently, maybe recently, maybe about a year ago, Aaron Manke of lore
(23:52):
remastered his first episode, like re-edited the whole thing, redid it.
And it was astounding the difference between the two.
And if you listen to his recent stuff, it's so great.
And it's of the same caliber.
If you went back to the original, like, you know, it's, it's a sign of its times.
It's not a negative, but I think, I think perfection is the enemy of good.
I think, uh, I think momentum matters a lot more than anything else.
(24:17):
And I think that people just need to be realistic.
I think commitment is the most important thing.
So it sounds like to you done is better than perfect.
Oh yeah.
Where are we right now?
I'm literally using AirPods using the Mac book microphone, which I'm incredibly embarrassed
about in what looks like basically a gray dungeon closet at a co-working space because
(24:39):
I wanted to record this with you.
I wanted to make sure that we could get this out here and I won't be back at my very nice
studio setup until the last week in August.
So to me, it's really, really important to take advantage of what you can own your shortcomings
and then figure out how you fix it.
Or maybe that's just part of your style.
Yeah.
(25:00):
Wow.
That this is fantastic.
So far.
I've taken, I've taken more notes than I care to admit, but, uh, I do have to ask you.
So when it comes to, like I said, the, the person who's just started, if they wanted
to get to that mortgage money, what's the very, very, very first thing that you would
say to them other than like, okay, yeah, you have your goal, but where would you tell them
(25:21):
to start?
Because the big thing is so many people like the, we froze.
You said if they want to get to that and then it froze everything out, if they want to get
to that mortgage money, if they want to get that mortgage money, you want to start your
part over again on that?
Sure.
Sure.
So we've talked about a lot and I've taken a lot of notes and I'm super, super excited
about everything that you've said, because everything you said has been gold so far.
(25:41):
But I kind of want to go back to, you know, the people that come to us, they're scared.
They're just beginning.
They're nervous about, you know, going up and try and get their first sponsor because,
you know, like, like you were saying, you know, if you, if you don't have any track
record, if you don't have any episodes in the hopper, how do you begin getting towards
that mortgage money?
But you know what, like how do you, how do you get there so you can get out of that day
(26:05):
job and do this full time?
You know, so first thing I would say is like, here's a great example.
Let's talk about your story for a second here.
You're working with RSS.com, right?
Yes.
Okay.
How many other podcasts do you have?
One right now.
Okay.
And it's bloggy friendship.
How many more do you want?
(26:25):
I would love to do a bunch more, but I don't know what I mean by that because I have all
these ideas and that it's figuring out the execution of all of it.
Does working with RSS enable you to work on your own podcasts and have fun with it?
Yes.
Yes.
So Evo Terra at the last podcast Academy Awards or whatever it is, like the podcast Hall of
(26:50):
Fame, I think it was.
Evo Terra has, Evo Terra said something really interesting that the best way to earn money
in podcasting is get a job in podcasting.
And so if you want to be close to the action, let me tell you the business side, we need
tons of people.
We need people who understand content.
We need people who want to learn more about advertising, all of that.
There's always jobs available and tons of opportunity there.
(27:13):
The FU money, I don't know if it exists.
I think like today for someone to have that, I would say that they would have to have been
an established creator somewhere and have the following to drop something and it just
explode, right?
I think that's the only way to get there from like zero to 60 real quick.
(27:33):
I think that the most important thing is that if you're not having fun, I think Justin Jackson
or of Transistor shared this or something, if you're not having fun, your audience isn't
likely not having fun consuming it.
So that's really important.
You need to create something really good and it can be the same as everybody else.
(27:54):
There's a handful of stuff that my wife consumes that I consume as well, but we consume it
from different creators because we like how they present it, right?
That's really important.
Like it is okay to not make something unique, but if your passion is there and people can
buy into it, it'll build, but it's a slow build, right?
It's like trying to build a snowman over the course of several years.
(28:17):
You roll that ball bigger, bigger, bigger.
You try your best to keep it from melting.
You hope that the winter is good next year and you keep trying to build it and build
it and build it.
And I think that at a certain point it becomes weather resistant.
So I think the biggest thing is consistency.
I think that if my true advice would be not to monetize for a year unless someone comes
(28:38):
to you and if you are so excited and so having so much fun and naturally marketing it and
people are talking word of mouth and an advertiser comes to you, yeah, sell your soul, sign
away, whatever, do whatever you're going to do, right?
If they say they want to license your podcast and it's enough to quit your job, do it.
If they say they want you to do brand new content that gives you a three month runway
(28:58):
to quit your job, do it.
But I think that the next set of dollars in this space are either going to be people who
know how to create, who have a track record, people who build something net new, interesting.
I mean, everyone's talking about the Who's Chat on the Floor at My Wedding podcast.
(29:19):
And that podcast has gotten a lot of attention, right?
It's such a neat new thing that everyone's like, wow, I got to try that out.
I think going those routes, like I think that that's the way to go.
I think be a creator and then let it happen.
There's so many interesting people out there.
Jay Klaus, I read a lot of his stuff.
(29:39):
He talks candidly about how much money he makes every month as a creator and how it
is gone from like he easily had years where he was like eating ramen, right?
And then now he's like at half a million a year and he's killing it.
And that's phenomenal.
These things aren't easy.
They don't happen overnight.
And the people who are looking to spend money are looking for your track record.
(29:59):
Yeah, it's the, what is it?
The 15 year overnight success story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's like literally people are like, wow, Brian, you got you lucked out with this
and sounds profitable.
And look, I think luck is opportunity plus preparedness.
There was a hole.
There was room for us to do that.
I also have 13 years of like causing substantial ad tech damage in other industries.
(30:23):
And so I messed up.
It's not that I know the successes of it.
I know we're not to mess up again.
So it's like fail until you win.
I think so.
I just keep moving forward.
Well, speaking of one of the things that kind of amused me is earlier in our conversation,
you said that you were a failed history teacher.
And a little known fact about me is I was actually on track to be a social studies teacher
(30:45):
myself and then I took a class on beginning reporting and changed my major to mass comm
and I never looked back.
I, I, it's interesting that the paths we take.
I'm excited that you changed yours.
I just dragged out my student loans for an extra year taking BS classes and then then
just left and moved to New York to get into ad tech because I got the opportunity there.
(31:09):
So at least you finished your degree.
I am a five year college dropout.
Hey, I, you know, it's funny cause like going back, like if I could, if I could go back,
I don't know if I even would have graduated.
I would have just kept staying in school because when I said I was a student, I got more yeses
than when I graduated.
So it's, it's interesting the way that things work with that kind of stuff.
(31:31):
See for me, it's the food court and then access to the gym and the knowledge that I probably
should have worked out a little bit more in college.
Well not only that, all the discounts they give to students.
I mean, come on.
I mean, I've even often joked that I was going to go back to school just so I could tap into
some of those student.
Just get that ID, sign up for that Apple discount.
Exactly.
Just get that.
(31:52):
What is it?
It's like, Oh, you know, one class a semester, the one credit that you take and it's cheaper
than like your gym, your library, all the things.
100%.
100%.
Well, we've covered a lot, but is there anything in the advertising and marketing and not marketing,
advertising and monetization space that we haven't covered that you really want to make
sure we tell our listeners?
(32:14):
I mean, look, at the end of the day, just like, whew, someone comes and offers you something
and it's interesting and it's not going to hurt you and you can move away from it.
Do it.
Take the opportunity.
Don't get upset if you're trying to promote yourself and people are not willing to listen
to who you are.
Like just keep creating.
Like everybody talks about how your hobby should never become your job.
(32:38):
And that's it's true because if you start to hate your hobby, then your job suffers,
right?
Like if chasing advertisement and being able to quit your job is the only way you'll be
happy podcasting, I don't think that that's healthy.
I don't think that that's a good idea today.
There's so much content out there.
If I was an advertiser, I could use a number of tools out there to find shows from 50 downloads
(33:01):
to 500,000 downloads an episode a month, and I could spend money with them and figure that
out.
But the idea of your content is can't miss.
It's a long process.
And I mean, look, we're looking at a writer's strike and an actor's strike and, and all
of that.
A lot of that is about IP and ownership.
I honestly hope that podcasting receives the benefit of all that and that to the people
(33:24):
we're talking to that makes your job harder.
But if you love what you're doing at a minimum, like think about this, how do you, how do
you get enough value from your podcast to want to keep doing it?
If you're in sales and it's a B2B style podcast and you're able to have an interview with
someone that usually wouldn't take a sales call from you, that's huge, right?
(33:45):
Like being able to engage with that person in an environment that you make them look
good.
You help them market and build content and then you get to talk to them.
You've just expanded your circle.
That, that's worth it.
That costs money in a post.
Well, I mean, a still COVID world, a post lockdown world networks are smaller.
So if literally all your podcast does is allow you to expand your network pays off in spades
(34:09):
six years down the road when that person's looking for a job and you can help them out
or vice versa or some opportunity pops up and they remember how could you made them
look and feel like that's really it.
And as someone who has so many friends around the country that I don't spend enough time
with, we've thought about just starting a podcast so that we have consistent requirement
(34:31):
to hang out and engage with each other, even if we never publish it.
So I don't know.
I think, I think if you want to make money in podcasts and get a job like Ashley and
I have in the industry of podcasting and then also make podcasts, if you want to create
a small business, go for it.
But I think, I think that you should expect the barrier to be when you're doing that,
(34:53):
you're competing with every single person out there who calls themselves a creator in
a side of the industry that is still fighting for attention.
Such good stuff.
And you know, ironic that I'm about to say what I'm about to say considering this entire
episode is how to make money podcasting.
But to me, one of the big things is it's okay to not even make money podcasting.
(35:17):
It's okay for this to just be your hobby.
You know, one of my favorite mentors, Denise Duffield Thomas, she always says that she's
like, you're allowed to have hobbies.
You're allowed to have a hobby that doesn't make you any money at all.
And you know, just as something that's been coming through this entire interview, that
just keeps coming up in my mind is like, yeah, you could, you know, work on this and make
(35:38):
this your slow burn until you finally make money at it.
But at the same time, it's okay if you just, like you said, just want to get together with
some people and talk to them on camera as your, as your incentive to just hang out.
I like that.
I like that a lot actually.
Ray Palermo at Megaphone, one of the best like reps I've ever interacted with, the pleasure
(35:58):
working with her when I worked at Megaphone has at least one podcast under a different
name and she won't tell anybody about it.
She's been working in podcasting forever.
She loves it, but her podcast is hers and her listeners.
And it's not something she shares with potential clients or anything, anybody like that, but
it allows her to be in touch with the industry, get her points across and do the things she
(36:21):
wants to do, be creative and express it.
And they're two separate things.
And that love of the industry is visible in everything she does.
And like that, she is a shining example of that.
And so, you know, I just, I really hope just people have fun with it.
My oldest son is five years old.
I have recordings.
The first few episodes of the Sounds Profitable podcast, I would have him, when we did the
(36:43):
narrated articles, I would have him read, I would be like, Theo, can you say wrapping
it up?
And he'd say, wrapping it up.
But I have a recording where, what do we say?
I said, Theo, anything else you want to tell the audience?
And he says, tubes.
So what?
He goes, tubes in the bathtub, because we just got him like tubes to do like the water
stuff, where you pour water in the tubes.
And he was like three years old and he was over the moon to tell my 300 listeners, who
(37:06):
I'm often convinced is just my mom 300 times, you know, that he got this new thing.
And it's amazing.
I'll have that forever.
It's stuck on my phone, right?
Like it's-
It's like a little time capsule.
It's like, think of audio and all that stuff.
We, I just lost some family recently.
I think constantly about giving a microphone to my parents to have them read my kids' favorite
(37:28):
stories.
So when they have kids of my parents aren't around, their kids can hear their grandparents'
voice and or great grandparents' voice.
And I don't know, audio is amazing.
I, I just, I feel bad for the people that lose excitement in it because they can't make
the money they want and I encourage them to just find out what they love about it.
(37:49):
Because if you love it and it's visible, people listen, you grow a following and then it all
works out.
It's not perfect.
It doesn't happen for everybody, but I, I feel that that will work easily 75% more of
the time than a manufactured thing.
All right.
I refuse to let you get me emotional, but that was really beautiful.
All of that was, I'm fine.
(38:10):
I'm fine.
Everything's fine here.
So that was kind of deep.
I didn't intend for it to go that way, but some of the stuff you were saying just really
like struck a nerve.
And because, you know, we had to leave this year from Afros and Audios on recently and
he was talking about how, you know, his audio is like a time capsule.
(38:31):
It's, you know, that joke that's been going around, like my mom has a private podcast,
but it's really just her leaving me, you know, 45 minute voicemails.
But it's like, you kind of want to have that audio just so it's like a moment in time that
you can keep.
It's yours.
Yeah.
Yes.
Oh, this is so good.
So good.
(38:52):
Well, before I let you go, I have to ask you the one question I ask every guest before
I let them off.
And that is what is one question I didn't ask that you really wish I had.
Oh my God.
That's not- That's usually the response I get.
No, now, now the best part about this is I'm going to ask you to cut this long pause here,
but you're not going to do that because that would be unfair to everybody else.
(39:14):
I'm the one thing.
That's so unfair.
We didn't even touch about YouTube.
I think that's it.
And I'm not going to answer it.
You didn't ask me about my thoughts on YouTube.
And now, and folks, stay tuned for the part two where Ashley is now forced to bring me
(39:34):
back so we can talk about YouTube.
That was slick.
That is the most brilliant marketing I've had of any guests we've ever had.
Everybody take notes because that is brilliant.
I love it so much.
I can't even explain to you how much I love that.
I'm not even going to answer it.
I'm not going to force it at all.
I will bring you back for a part two.
We will definitely do this again.
(39:56):
And Brian, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and
everything you've shared.
Like I said, took a lot of notes.
Can't wait to look over all of them and definitely harass you down the line.
Please, anytime.
And listen, folks, anybody who is listening to this, soundsprofitable.com, you can subscribe
to all of our stuff for free.
Bryan at soundsprofitable.com.
I spell it with a Y.
(40:17):
I obviously set an alias to do it with an I.
Literally, if you hit reply to any of the newsletters and ask a question, it goes to
me.
You email me, it goes to me.
I would like all of you to succeed.
I would like this industry to be 10, 20 times the size it is right now.
We are not overwhelmed with the number of podcasts.
Look at the number of books.
Look at the number of YouTube channels.
Look at the number of blogs out there, right?
(40:39):
Don't let anybody get in your head.
I would like all of you to feel successful in whatever that means in podcasting.
And I'm here for it.
If I can't answer your question easily, I'll pass you to someone who can.
And you know, please reach out.
Do not suffer in silence.
We're here to help each other.
I love that so much.
Well, thank you again.
And I look forward to part two.
(41:00):
I don't know when we'll record it, but we will definitely make it out.
Yeah.
Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this
episode.
To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to rss.com backslash
(41:22):
blog.
And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started for free with
your first episode on us.
Thanks for tuning in.
Hey everyone, Ashley here with RSS.com.
(00:19):
In today's episode, we're chatting with Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable.
We'll be discussing how to monetize your podcast and the best way to get started with it.
Enjoy the show.
So let's just get into it.
(00:41):
First of all, let's just jump right in and tell me a little bit about what it is that
you do, even though I know that's a very, very loaded question.
What is it that you do?
So first off, my favorite part about that is we have podcast movement coming up in August,
about a month away from now.
And I love when I get to interact with people who know what we do.
And then they introduce us to other people because they're just like, they take a shot
(01:03):
at it.
And I just sit back and I was like, what's their favorite part about what we do?
So I'm Brian Barletta.
I've been working in ad tech about 14 years.
I am a failed college, like a history teacher.
I did not succeed in that path.
I fell into advertising, mobile advertising originally, and got to be involved in the
initial specs of advertising and mobile apps.
It was a lot of fun.
(01:24):
Halfway through my career, I ended up working in podcasting.
We were an attribution company as a subset of an ad company called Ad Theory.
And we split off the team, Barometric.
I was one of the founding members there.
And we eventually sold to Claretos.
We were the first attribution company in podcasting.
And it was an absolute blast.
I stayed through the acquisition for a little bit.
(01:46):
And then I went over to Megaphone where I was the senior product manager of data and
monetization.
I was hired to help rewrite the ad server and improve flow.
They got an awesome opportunity to sell to Spotify.
I don't know if you know this, but it's incredibly difficult to sell a house when someone's ripping
up the carpet.
So we parted ways in August 2020 because they couldn't easily tell me that they were trying
to sell and I'm not great at taking hints.
(02:07):
What happened then was I had the opportunity, thanks to James Cridlin, to start writing
a little bit about podcasting.
I realized that the space had grown so massively.
And I think it was four or five years at that point that I've been working in it.
And there were people who didn't understand a download, a listen or stream and why the
three of those were different.
So James platformed us.
We ended our relationship with them earlier this year.
(02:28):
So two great years working together and we started writing.
Well, I should say I started writing.
It was a weekly newsletter all about podcasts, more focused on ad tech, but grew into the
business of podcasting, which is what it is today.
And so now today, which when is this episode going to air?
Maybe I can.
I believe it's going to air in September.
Okay.
(02:49):
Well, now today we have a Wednesday newsletter and a Friday newsletter.
The Wednesday is more of a thought piece, things to grow the whole space, educate you
on what's going on, give you material to work with and think through how we all collaboratively
lift the industry.
Friday is a recap, what we call the download.
And that is three articles basically that we've expanded on and some quick hits for
(03:13):
what you need to know to stay informed in the business of podcasting.
But considering this episode is coming out in September on August 2nd, we're watching
our daily newsletter.
We're recording this in July, by the way, for everybody out there keeping chronological
order.
Our newsletter is going to come out Monday through Thursday.
It's going to come out around three or four PM Eastern.
And the intent is for it to be an ad free newsletter, coalescing everything about the
(03:39):
business of podcasting that happened that day.
So really focus on advertising, content and marketing, all these key things.
And not only just what's happening in podcasting, but like what's happening in YouTube, right?
Currently right now, there's a huge issue about viewability in YouTube.
It's a closed market.
Everybody's telling people in podcasting today, you need to get into YouTube because that's
(04:02):
where additional monetization is additional discovery.
But YouTube's got its own problems.
The grass is always greener.
So we're trying to arm people with very quick explanations of what the article is and how
it relates to podcasting so people can share it, copy and paste it, or they can read it
and they can use it with clients.
It's very, it's a very thin newsletter, right?
It's like five to 10 points, a data point, and then there you go.
(04:25):
And that's our goal is to respect everybody's time and empower them.
But sounds probably has been so much more than written content.
We do podcast versions of all that.
We do live events every quarter.
Tom Webster left 18 years at Edison Research to come be my business partner.
And now we do quarterly live research.
All of that is freely available.
And we work really, really hard to just drive the industry forward.
(04:46):
So we have, as of right now, over 140 partners and we kind of fashion ourselves as a trade
association.
We provide them with consulting every month and access to our Slack channels and a little
bit more granular stuff.
People who are enterprising and are looking to just learn from everything we have out
there or ask us questions, we're here for it.
(05:06):
And we encourage everybody to do that.
But we price our structure and how we have 140 partners is sometimes people just need
to ask a really direct, unique question to them.
Sometimes they need help with a project.
And we are very, very thankful for everybody's support and growing our ability to help improve
this industry.
Well, and one of the things that struck me recently is, you mentioned that you like to
(05:28):
empower podcasters.
And that is so accurate because you guys just released an awesome glossary of terms.
And when you did that, it was just like, oh my goodness, these are things that I spout
off some of these terms all the time.
But a new person coming in, hearing all this jargon, it can get overwhelming.
And so that's just one of those things that I like the website because of all the things
(05:49):
that you guys share that actually helps a podcaster become more knowledgeable.
And so one of the things that comes up a lot of times whenever we start talking about monetization
is, you know, they're asking for, what are your click-through rates?
They're asking for, what are your downloads?
They're asking for all these numbers, you know, when sponsors are coming to you or you're
going to them.
How in the world does a podcaster, the little guy that just got his microphone, how does
(06:13):
he or she begin the crazy world of monetizing a podcast?
What would you say to them?
Well, let's first divide it, right?
If this is intended to be a career and to earn revenue and you to quit your job, you
to treat it like starting a business.
If somebody told me that they had zero investment and investment can be money or time and they
(06:34):
were going to start like a clothing business, I don't know how I would respond to them.
So when someone tells me that they've recorded 10 podcast episodes and they want to know
Brian, how do I quit my job?
I don't have feedback, right?
Because that's a big, that's a grand canyon of a jump you have to make there.
Referencing back to our road tripping and hiking stuff.
(06:54):
I think that people really need to separate it.
If you're doing podcasting because you love it, just do it, right?
It's a killer art form.
It's a great way to connect with people.
It's a great way to have fun.
If 20, there was a quote on Reddit at one point, like what would 20 or 30 people in
your living room look like?
That's a, that's a big crowd.
So be happy with it.
Our podcast only gets 300 downloads an episode and I'm not even remotely stressed about that.
(07:20):
Monetization there's so many different avenues.
If it's going to be valuable to you, you need to really just kind of figure out your priority.
Todd Cochran from blueberry said something that really, I really latched onto a long
time ago, which was, is it going to earn you burger money, car payment money or mortgage
money, right?
Like the three levels, if you think about it and you need to just determine how much
(07:43):
effort burger money is worth because advertising can be jumping through a lot of hoops.
So that's all to say that like, let's, we'll talk through a bunch of models here.
If you want me to dig into it, like all the different ways people can monetize.
But the thing I want to say is like, when you're small, the best thing you can do is
direct bundled relationships, right?
(08:04):
It is, there are shows out there that have a thousand listeners per episode that talks
specifically to incredibly important IT individuals at major companies.
And that podcast might earn half a million dollars a year because all the advertising
needs to do is close one sale to make a million dollars.
So half a million dollars to land a million dollar client for some in advertising, like
(08:28):
the margins there for that.
So when you come up with that, when what your content is, if you can figure out advertisers
that make sense there, but approach them, offer them something, make sure that that
dollar amount works for you, try and back it into a CPM to understand their value of
it.
If you believe you have an audience that can convert or that can provide them value that
is uniquely positioned, take your shot.
(08:50):
That's my first suggestion there.
The second is I think it's very smart to have ways for people to pay you directly.
I don't know why, but I got bit with the bug of learning more about what was happening
to Britney Spears during her trial.
And I found the toxic podcast and I binge listened to every episode and I would have killed for
(09:13):
like a buy me a coffee or something in their episode descriptions because I found easily
10 or $20 worth of value of that.
And I wasn't given the opportunity to do that.
I couldn't even subscribe to their podcast and Apple or directly.
There was nothing available or nothing in my face for me to say here is money.
And while I'm not a fan of like the Patreon model necessarily the monthly reoccurring
(09:35):
to do like a one time, right?
Just pick the $20 option, do one time and then cancel future months.
I think giving people the options to pay you is really smart.
I think that can be a real quick way to get support and to find your audience and then
not compromise on your values.
I mean, if you think about sounds profitable, well, the 140 partners that we work with help
finance our ability to speak our mind.
(09:56):
They have no editorial impact on our content.
So that's very similar there.
That Patreon that subscription is someone saying, keep doing this, please.
It entertains me and has value.
They may want to add free.
I don't necessarily think you need to go that way if you're big enough to have ads, but
they want to support you and they kind of just want to be included, right?
Read their name at the end of the episode.
(10:17):
Final one is ads.
You know, there's so many different ways to go about it.
It is harder when you're smaller, right?
If you have 250 downloads an episode and you have four ad impressions or ad insertion points
available, so four ads, and let's say you are just a rock star, you sold out at $25
CPM all four ad reads, that is a hundred dollars for that episode, right?
(10:42):
That's four different clients that you're having conversations with.
That's four different ad reads that you're getting approved, that you're providing them
reporting to at the end of it.
And each of them are only paying you $25.
Like for me, I don't think I could handle, I don't think it could justify a hundred dollars
to work with four people through email.
I think that that very quickly eats into your time.
So as you get bigger, there are more advertising opportunities, but I really push people to
(11:05):
explore the other ones, right?
The way to ask for money from the audience, the way to do sponsorship instead of advertising.
And I really want to differentiate.
Sponsorship is in the benefit of the publisher creating a bundle that someone, an advertiser
buys into.
Advertising is a CPA or CPM like a, or CPC, CPA, whatever.
Cost per thousand is cost per million is CPM.
(11:27):
Cost per acquisition is CPA.
Cost per click is CPC.
I always skip over them.
So I want to make sure I explain them there.
Advertisers like to work in that model because then they can buy across thousands or tens
of thousands of shows.
And that's how they buy everywhere.
So it is in a publisher's best interest to explore sponsorship.
Absolutely.
(11:47):
And one of the things that you said that really struck me is you said that with all of your
partners, none of them have an impact on your editorial.
And I think that's an important point to stress is I see far too many content creators.
They will let the sponsorship money influence what it is that they are creating about.
And this actually just came up recently because, you know, I was telling my husband we're working
(12:10):
on starting a food blog and I was saying that I can't stand lemon flavored anything.
And you know, one of the jokes was, well, what if a lemon company wanted to come and
sponsor me?
What would I do?
And I can't say that I would just be like, oh, well, let me just start writing about
lemon flavored everything because that's not authentic.
And so will you speak to me a little bit about what it's like to have a sponsor come on and
(12:33):
work with you, but not let it impact what it is you're saying?
So that's, I mean, like the lemon example is really fun.
If you look at some of the great bigger names and they can only do this because they've
established themselves or whatnot.
Like there are podcasters out there who could say like, I hate lemons, but this lemon company
has paid us to talk about lemons.
(12:54):
I know lemons won't kill you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat them.
But maybe you should because that, you know what I mean?
That people can have fun with it.
There are so many interesting ways to go about it.
It's very different than like an oil company wanting to sponsor a podcast about the environment,
you know, the lines are there.
It's not easy.
Like it's, it's really not easy.
I think the truth is, is the podcast advertisers don't expect you to change your content, especially
(13:18):
if you're smaller, they're buying into you because of what you have and they're trying
to see if it works, right?
They've either proven out that category or your archetyped, like, you know, female hosted
sports podcasts, right?
They know that those convert well for them or audiences that do really well with the
drive a lot of adult women listeners because they have more disposable income or all these
(13:40):
different things, right?
I don't think a lot of them are going to challenge you on your content, but I think it's incredibly
important for publishers to also be listeners or podcasters to also be listeners of their
show.
I, I don't know.
I mean, there's a handful of shows that I, I really want to listen to that just have
too many ads.
Like the team at iHeart does some really great stuff, but I think, you know, they're a little
(14:04):
bit on the, like we joke about how many ads are in an iHeart podcast, right?
It's usually four insertion points of three to four ads each.
Some of those ads are over a minute each, right?
I think this year I called it being whams when you're washing the dishes and you end
up in an, like an iHeart ad break, because what do you do?
You can skip it.
You got to be a listener to your show too.
(14:25):
You got to, you got to determine what's like, what's going to stop your momentum.
Momentum is the most important thing.
I mean, we have, there are a handful of people who are partners now, who, when we started
three years ago, likely passed on partnership because I didn't offer them anything editorial.
But now because we've become so neutral and valuable, they understand that by working
(14:46):
with us and talking to me and my subject matter is related to them, the more we spend time
together, the more I can reference them and bring them up and promote them organically
because I find the value in it, not because I was paid to do it.
So I think momentum is the key there.
I think that if you do not feel like you have enough momentum to, to skip that advertiser
(15:09):
and keep growing to get the advertisers you want, if you can't take that little bit of
a drought, it's probably not a good business model.
Well speaking of, you know, you were talking about how like you can't skip the ad.
What do you think about the podcasters who are opting for, they'll have the, you know,
the traditional RSS feed where it has all the ads on it, all the sponsorship things.
(15:31):
But then if you want a ad free version, you pay a little bit extra and you get it directly.
What do you think about those?
So I love bonus content.
I listened to a lot of actual play Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role playing game
podcasts.
And then I also listened to a bunch of kids podcasts.
So whenever someone's like, have you listened to the really cool pop culture one?
I was like, no idea, man.
(15:52):
Like I listened to, I listened to junk and I love it.
One of the ones I listened to did something really cool.
They have their bonus feed, which is paid for only has their bonus content.
It doesn't contain their ad free version of their main show.
And then you have to still subscribe to their main feed in the podcast directories.
The reason why I think this is so clever is that if you like another one, I was to do
(16:16):
Dungeons and Daddies puts everything in the Patreon feed.
That means that Apple and Spotify and wherever else I would listen doesn't recognize me listening
to the directory listing.
So their ranking isn't benefited by how rabbit of a fan I am.
I, they get my money, they get my attention, but their, their discoverability is hurt.
So this one world beyond numbers, it, uh, worlds beyond numbers, it, you still have
(16:39):
to listen to the main feed to get the show.
And then the, the, uh, subscription feed only gives you the bonus content.
My suggestion is follow that model.
Absolutely.
If someone's interested enough in paying you, they're happy to have two of your feeds in
the library.
It also gives you two options to be visible when people are scanning through things.
And I think that the thing to keep in mind is that the people who are willing to pay
(17:03):
for your content are also your most engaged audience.
I think it is generally a bad idea to go ad free with them.
I think people should do sponsorship models with that.
Um, back in the day when Hulu started, one of the things they did was you could, and
maybe they still do it.
Uh, you can watch like a seven minute ad at the beginning, or you could watch 17 minutes
(17:23):
of ads throughout the show.
And I'd be like, yeah, seven minute ad and I'll walk away.
Sponsored, like when you buy that feed, right?
When you buy into the ad free feed, if we, if the episode started off saying this episode
is brought to you ad free by state farm, I love my safe farm rep.
They've saved my life multiple times.
Check it out with this promo code.
Now back to the uninterrupted show.
(17:45):
Thanks to state farm.
It's kind of a, you know, an easy way to make sure that you are still getting to that audience
without really violating that trust.
And so I'm, I'm all for it.
I listened.
Let's see.
What do I subscribe to?
I think I'm going to subscribe to the
(18:05):
one.
Dory plus kids.
Oh, my wife subscribes to one Dory plus kids because even though we have Amazon music,
she does not want to listen to podcasts anywhere, but Apple music, Apple podcasts, Apple podcasts.
Wow.
What, why is that?
This is a fun one.
I think that podcast players are like browsers and not like streaming video destinations.
(18:26):
I think Spotify spent millions of dollars to prove that to us in the course of a year
that people are not really interested in having multiple podcast players or multiple music
players on their phone.
I have Amazon prime video, Netflix, Hulu.
I think I have paramount, uh, max Disney plus I have all of those because half the other
(18:49):
things that I pay for give me one of those three.
Oh, Apple TV.
Right.
But those are destinations.
They're not browsers.
I stubbornly use Safari.
We're on Chrome right now so we can record on Riverside, but it doesn't work very well
on Safari.
But like, I will stop going to certain websites because it doesn't work well with Safari because
I have a browser.
(19:10):
I like the performance.
How I like, I use it that way.
That's what I think podcast players are.
That's where I think, you know, when people are upset about how much Spotify damage quote
unquote Spotify did to this face.
No, I think they bought us five years of knowledge real early.
It's interesting because some people say like the opposite that Spotify is ruining podcasting.
So it's an interesting take.
(19:31):
I never thought of it that way.
I guess they bought that a little bit more.
I guess they're not a try.
Like just, just imagine that we also focus with Spotify too much on the content, right?
Like sure.
They've made some wild content plays.
They inflated the price.
They convinced production companies that they also needed to do growth and sales and all
these things.
People with not enough business acumen, we did their business plans during that boom
(19:54):
saying that this 10 X growth we saw can last for five more years.
That was bad, but they bought, uh, with it, they bought anchor huge, right?
They bought megaphone, whooshka, um, uh, pod sites, chartable.
Their ad tech game is on point.
Megaphone was one of the best ad sellers in podcasting period.
(20:14):
I mean, they used to be Pina.
They used to be a production company.
And then by getting further into ad sales and building a hosting platform or acquiring
rather, um, they, they pivoted the entire company away from production because in one
quarter they made what Pina made in the previous year.
So I don't know.
I think we're really hard on Spotify because it's easy to post, uh, point to archetypes
or Joe Rogan or, you know, call me daddy or call her daddy.
(20:37):
And like that, yeah, that's what my mom reads about.
But when I read about pod sites being acquired and attribution being free and podcasting,
it's a big deal.
Hmm.
Yeah, I guess I really do need to think about that a little bit more.
Fast.
It's okay to have someone.
Yeah, but if you want to have a demon, have a demon, have somebody to blame, it's super
(20:58):
okay.
Like it doesn't, I don't think if it drives people to be better and motivate themselves,
it's great.
But yeah, I mean, this was pirate radio.
This was podcasting hit 20 years and now at the 20 year point, like we've been disrupted
by major money in this space.
We're held hostage by the podcast players who won't give us more data, won't send us
any additional signals about listens and or agree on what a listen is between them.
(21:22):
It's a yeah, it can be really overwhelming, but there's no other channel like this.
Like I guess I can self host videos on my website, but if it's not on YouTube, no one's
going to watch it or tick tock or anything like that.
What other like besides a blog or a newsletter really, this is the most animated medium I'd
say that can exist on an open channel.
(21:46):
I guess my big fear was that like they'd wake up one day and be like, Oh, well podcasting
is not profitable.
Let's just kill it.
Cause they have, there's such a numbers game people.
Sure.
I think it costs them very little to support podcasting in their app.
I think that it's revenue positive.
And I think that worst case scenario, the podcast, uh, it, it gets them out of royalties
(22:07):
and it gets them away, uh, gets them more types of audio to sell.
So I think Spotify is a solid sales house.
I think there are a lot of people who just spend in audio on Spotify and I think they'll
continue to have options there.
Do I expect them to innovate at the same rate that they were before?
Um, not in ways that I'm excited about their, their visions around AI and what they could
(22:28):
do there are terrifying to me.
Um, but you know, uh, I don't think, I don't think they're going to wake up and turn it
off.
I also don't think that they have the engineering resources to just pull it out without damaging
the whole app at this point.
Well that's at least good news.
So now you had mentioned burger money or mortgage money.
(22:49):
Um, with the whole business plan thing, do you think podcasters need a business plan
in order to get there?
Well I don't have a business plan and I'm three years into this and just kind of winging
it.
Um, I don't know.
I mean, I think that if it is a business and your goal and it's a competitive market, like
what we started, there wasn't anybody else doing it.
So I'm trying to figure it out.
(23:10):
I'm trying to find peers in other industries and I'm still struggling on that end.
Um, I think in podcasting you have tons of peers, you have millions of peers.
And I don't think that it's any different than book publishing or, uh, you know, creating
YouTube content.
So I think that you should have a strategy and you should have benchmarks.
You should have a bare minimum that you're willing to do even if the number is zero or
(23:31):
negative and then you got to have lines.
You have to have a reassess it.
It is absolutely okay.
Three months into it to go, this is no longer fun.
And I'm negative money from it, but you need to determine like, how do you keep it fun?
How do you keep it light on the money?
I think, you know, uh, recently, maybe recently, maybe about a year ago, Aaron Manke of lore
(23:52):
remastered his first episode, like re-edited the whole thing, redid it.
And it was astounding the difference between the two.
And if you listen to his recent stuff, it's so great.
And it's of the same caliber.
If you went back to the original, like, you know, it's, it's a sign of its times.
It's not a negative, but I think, I think perfection is the enemy of good.
I think, uh, I think momentum matters a lot more than anything else.
(24:17):
And I think that people just need to be realistic.
I think commitment is the most important thing.
So it sounds like to you done is better than perfect.
Oh yeah.
Where are we right now?
I'm literally using AirPods using the Mac book microphone, which I'm incredibly embarrassed
about in what looks like basically a gray dungeon closet at a co-working space because
(24:39):
I wanted to record this with you.
I wanted to make sure that we could get this out here and I won't be back at my very nice
studio setup until the last week in August.
So to me, it's really, really important to take advantage of what you can own your shortcomings
and then figure out how you fix it.
Or maybe that's just part of your style.
Yeah.
(25:00):
Wow.
That this is fantastic.
So far.
I've taken, I've taken more notes than I care to admit, but, uh, I do have to ask you.
So when it comes to, like I said, the, the person who's just started, if they wanted
to get to that mortgage money, what's the very, very, very first thing that you would
say to them other than like, okay, yeah, you have your goal, but where would you tell them
(25:21):
to start?
Because the big thing is so many people like the, we froze.
You said if they want to get to that and then it froze everything out, if they want to get
to that mortgage money, if they want to get that mortgage money, you want to start your
part over again on that?
Sure.
Sure.
So we've talked about a lot and I've taken a lot of notes and I'm super, super excited
about everything that you've said, because everything you said has been gold so far.
(25:41):
But I kind of want to go back to, you know, the people that come to us, they're scared.
They're just beginning.
They're nervous about, you know, going up and try and get their first sponsor because,
you know, like, like you were saying, you know, if you, if you don't have any track
record, if you don't have any episodes in the hopper, how do you begin getting towards
that mortgage money?
But you know what, like how do you, how do you get there so you can get out of that day
(26:05):
job and do this full time?
You know, so first thing I would say is like, here's a great example.
Let's talk about your story for a second here.
You're working with RSS.com, right?
Yes.
Okay.
How many other podcasts do you have?
One right now.
Okay.
And it's bloggy friendship.
How many more do you want?
(26:25):
I would love to do a bunch more, but I don't know what I mean by that because I have all
these ideas and that it's figuring out the execution of all of it.
Does working with RSS enable you to work on your own podcasts and have fun with it?
Yes.
Yes.
So Evo Terra at the last podcast Academy Awards or whatever it is, like the podcast Hall of
(26:50):
Fame, I think it was.
Evo Terra has, Evo Terra said something really interesting that the best way to earn money
in podcasting is get a job in podcasting.
And so if you want to be close to the action, let me tell you the business side, we need
tons of people.
We need people who understand content.
We need people who want to learn more about advertising, all of that.
There's always jobs available and tons of opportunity there.
(27:13):
The FU money, I don't know if it exists.
I think like today for someone to have that, I would say that they would have to have been
an established creator somewhere and have the following to drop something and it just
explode, right?
I think that's the only way to get there from like zero to 60 real quick.
(27:33):
I think that the most important thing is that if you're not having fun, I think Justin Jackson
or of Transistor shared this or something, if you're not having fun, your audience isn't
likely not having fun consuming it.
So that's really important.
You need to create something really good and it can be the same as everybody else.
(27:54):
There's a handful of stuff that my wife consumes that I consume as well, but we consume it
from different creators because we like how they present it, right?
That's really important.
Like it is okay to not make something unique, but if your passion is there and people can
buy into it, it'll build, but it's a slow build, right?
It's like trying to build a snowman over the course of several years.
(28:17):
You roll that ball bigger, bigger, bigger.
You try your best to keep it from melting.
You hope that the winter is good next year and you keep trying to build it and build
it and build it.
And I think that at a certain point it becomes weather resistant.
So I think the biggest thing is consistency.
I think that if my true advice would be not to monetize for a year unless someone comes
(28:38):
to you and if you are so excited and so having so much fun and naturally marketing it and
people are talking word of mouth and an advertiser comes to you, yeah, sell your soul, sign
away, whatever, do whatever you're going to do, right?
If they say they want to license your podcast and it's enough to quit your job, do it.
If they say they want you to do brand new content that gives you a three month runway
(28:58):
to quit your job, do it.
But I think that the next set of dollars in this space are either going to be people who
know how to create, who have a track record, people who build something net new, interesting.
I mean, everyone's talking about the Who's Chat on the Floor at My Wedding podcast.
(29:19):
And that podcast has gotten a lot of attention, right?
It's such a neat new thing that everyone's like, wow, I got to try that out.
I think going those routes, like I think that that's the way to go.
I think be a creator and then let it happen.
There's so many interesting people out there.
Jay Klaus, I read a lot of his stuff.
(29:39):
He talks candidly about how much money he makes every month as a creator and how it
is gone from like he easily had years where he was like eating ramen, right?
And then now he's like at half a million a year and he's killing it.
And that's phenomenal.
These things aren't easy.
They don't happen overnight.
And the people who are looking to spend money are looking for your track record.
(29:59):
Yeah, it's the, what is it?
The 15 year overnight success story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's like literally people are like, wow, Brian, you got you lucked out with this
and sounds profitable.
And look, I think luck is opportunity plus preparedness.
There was a hole.
There was room for us to do that.
I also have 13 years of like causing substantial ad tech damage in other industries.
(30:23):
And so I messed up.
It's not that I know the successes of it.
I know we're not to mess up again.
So it's like fail until you win.
I think so.
I just keep moving forward.
Well, speaking of one of the things that kind of amused me is earlier in our conversation,
you said that you were a failed history teacher.
And a little known fact about me is I was actually on track to be a social studies teacher
(30:45):
myself and then I took a class on beginning reporting and changed my major to mass comm
and I never looked back.
I, I, it's interesting that the paths we take.
I'm excited that you changed yours.
I just dragged out my student loans for an extra year taking BS classes and then then
just left and moved to New York to get into ad tech because I got the opportunity there.
(31:09):
So at least you finished your degree.
I am a five year college dropout.
Hey, I, you know, it's funny cause like going back, like if I could, if I could go back,
I don't know if I even would have graduated.
I would have just kept staying in school because when I said I was a student, I got more yeses
than when I graduated.
So it's, it's interesting the way that things work with that kind of stuff.
(31:31):
See for me, it's the food court and then access to the gym and the knowledge that I probably
should have worked out a little bit more in college.
Well not only that, all the discounts they give to students.
I mean, come on.
I mean, I've even often joked that I was going to go back to school just so I could tap into
some of those student.
Just get that ID, sign up for that Apple discount.
Exactly.
Just get that.
(31:52):
What is it?
It's like, Oh, you know, one class a semester, the one credit that you take and it's cheaper
than like your gym, your library, all the things.
100%.
100%.
Well, we've covered a lot, but is there anything in the advertising and marketing and not marketing,
advertising and monetization space that we haven't covered that you really want to make
sure we tell our listeners?
(32:14):
I mean, look, at the end of the day, just like, whew, someone comes and offers you something
and it's interesting and it's not going to hurt you and you can move away from it.
Do it.
Take the opportunity.
Don't get upset if you're trying to promote yourself and people are not willing to listen
to who you are.
Like just keep creating.
Like everybody talks about how your hobby should never become your job.
(32:38):
And that's it's true because if you start to hate your hobby, then your job suffers,
right?
Like if chasing advertisement and being able to quit your job is the only way you'll be
happy podcasting, I don't think that that's healthy.
I don't think that that's a good idea today.
There's so much content out there.
If I was an advertiser, I could use a number of tools out there to find shows from 50 downloads
(33:01):
to 500,000 downloads an episode a month, and I could spend money with them and figure that
out.
But the idea of your content is can't miss.
It's a long process.
And I mean, look, we're looking at a writer's strike and an actor's strike and, and all
of that.
A lot of that is about IP and ownership.
I honestly hope that podcasting receives the benefit of all that and that to the people
(33:24):
we're talking to that makes your job harder.
But if you love what you're doing at a minimum, like think about this, how do you, how do
you get enough value from your podcast to want to keep doing it?
If you're in sales and it's a B2B style podcast and you're able to have an interview with
someone that usually wouldn't take a sales call from you, that's huge, right?
(33:45):
Like being able to engage with that person in an environment that you make them look
good.
You help them market and build content and then you get to talk to them.
You've just expanded your circle.
That, that's worth it.
That costs money in a post.
Well, I mean, a still COVID world, a post lockdown world networks are smaller.
So if literally all your podcast does is allow you to expand your network pays off in spades
(34:09):
six years down the road when that person's looking for a job and you can help them out
or vice versa or some opportunity pops up and they remember how could you made them
look and feel like that's really it.
And as someone who has so many friends around the country that I don't spend enough time
with, we've thought about just starting a podcast so that we have consistent requirement
(34:31):
to hang out and engage with each other, even if we never publish it.
So I don't know.
I think, I think if you want to make money in podcasts and get a job like Ashley and
I have in the industry of podcasting and then also make podcasts, if you want to create
a small business, go for it.
But I think, I think that you should expect the barrier to be when you're doing that,
(34:53):
you're competing with every single person out there who calls themselves a creator in
a side of the industry that is still fighting for attention.
Such good stuff.
And you know, ironic that I'm about to say what I'm about to say considering this entire
episode is how to make money podcasting.
But to me, one of the big things is it's okay to not even make money podcasting.
(35:17):
It's okay for this to just be your hobby.
You know, one of my favorite mentors, Denise Duffield Thomas, she always says that she's
like, you're allowed to have hobbies.
You're allowed to have a hobby that doesn't make you any money at all.
And you know, just as something that's been coming through this entire interview, that
just keeps coming up in my mind is like, yeah, you could, you know, work on this and make
(35:38):
this your slow burn until you finally make money at it.
But at the same time, it's okay if you just, like you said, just want to get together with
some people and talk to them on camera as your, as your incentive to just hang out.
I like that.
I like that a lot actually.
Ray Palermo at Megaphone, one of the best like reps I've ever interacted with, the pleasure
(35:58):
working with her when I worked at Megaphone has at least one podcast under a different
name and she won't tell anybody about it.
She's been working in podcasting forever.
She loves it, but her podcast is hers and her listeners.
And it's not something she shares with potential clients or anything, anybody like that, but
it allows her to be in touch with the industry, get her points across and do the things she
(36:21):
wants to do, be creative and express it.
And they're two separate things.
And that love of the industry is visible in everything she does.
And like that, she is a shining example of that.
And so, you know, I just, I really hope just people have fun with it.
My oldest son is five years old.
I have recordings.
The first few episodes of the Sounds Profitable podcast, I would have him, when we did the
(36:43):
narrated articles, I would have him read, I would be like, Theo, can you say wrapping
it up?
And he'd say, wrapping it up.
But I have a recording where, what do we say?
I said, Theo, anything else you want to tell the audience?
And he says, tubes.
So what?
He goes, tubes in the bathtub, because we just got him like tubes to do like the water
stuff, where you pour water in the tubes.
And he was like three years old and he was over the moon to tell my 300 listeners, who
(37:06):
I'm often convinced is just my mom 300 times, you know, that he got this new thing.
And it's amazing.
I'll have that forever.
It's stuck on my phone, right?
Like it's-
It's like a little time capsule.
It's like, think of audio and all that stuff.
We, I just lost some family recently.
I think constantly about giving a microphone to my parents to have them read my kids' favorite
(37:28):
stories.
So when they have kids of my parents aren't around, their kids can hear their grandparents'
voice and or great grandparents' voice.
And I don't know, audio is amazing.
I, I just, I feel bad for the people that lose excitement in it because they can't make
the money they want and I encourage them to just find out what they love about it.
(37:49):
Because if you love it and it's visible, people listen, you grow a following and then it all
works out.
It's not perfect.
It doesn't happen for everybody, but I, I feel that that will work easily 75% more of
the time than a manufactured thing.
All right.
I refuse to let you get me emotional, but that was really beautiful.
All of that was, I'm fine.
(38:10):
I'm fine.
Everything's fine here.
So that was kind of deep.
I didn't intend for it to go that way, but some of the stuff you were saying just really
like struck a nerve.
And because, you know, we had to leave this year from Afros and Audios on recently and
he was talking about how, you know, his audio is like a time capsule.
(38:31):
It's, you know, that joke that's been going around, like my mom has a private podcast,
but it's really just her leaving me, you know, 45 minute voicemails.
But it's like, you kind of want to have that audio just so it's like a moment in time that
you can keep.
It's yours.
Yeah.
Yes.
Oh, this is so good.
So good.
(38:52):
Well, before I let you go, I have to ask you the one question I ask every guest before
I let them off.
And that is what is one question I didn't ask that you really wish I had.
Oh my God.
That's not- That's usually the response I get.
No, now, now the best part about this is I'm going to ask you to cut this long pause here,
but you're not going to do that because that would be unfair to everybody else.
(39:14):
I'm the one thing.
That's so unfair.
We didn't even touch about YouTube.
I think that's it.
And I'm not going to answer it.
You didn't ask me about my thoughts on YouTube.
And now, and folks, stay tuned for the part two where Ashley is now forced to bring me
(39:34):
back so we can talk about YouTube.
That was slick.
That is the most brilliant marketing I've had of any guests we've ever had.
Everybody take notes because that is brilliant.
I love it so much.
I can't even explain to you how much I love that.
I'm not even going to answer it.
I'm not going to force it at all.
I will bring you back for a part two.
We will definitely do this again.
(39:56):
And Brian, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and
everything you've shared.
Like I said, took a lot of notes.
Can't wait to look over all of them and definitely harass you down the line.
Please, anytime.
And listen, folks, anybody who is listening to this, soundsprofitable.com, you can subscribe
to all of our stuff for free.
Bryan at soundsprofitable.com.
I spell it with a Y.
(40:17):
I obviously set an alias to do it with an I.
Literally, if you hit reply to any of the newsletters and ask a question, it goes to
me.
You email me, it goes to me.
I would like all of you to succeed.
I would like this industry to be 10, 20 times the size it is right now.
We are not overwhelmed with the number of podcasts.
Look at the number of books.
Look at the number of YouTube channels.
Look at the number of blogs out there, right?
(40:39):
Don't let anybody get in your head.
I would like all of you to feel successful in whatever that means in podcasting.
And I'm here for it.
If I can't answer your question easily, I'll pass you to someone who can.
And you know, please reach out.
Do not suffer in silence.
We're here to help each other.
I love that so much.
Well, thank you again.
And I look forward to part two.
(41:00):
I don't know when we'll record it, but we will definitely make it out.
Yeah.
Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this
episode.
To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to rss.com backslash
(41:22):
blog.
And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started for free with
your first episode on us.
Thanks for tuning in.
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