September 28, 2023 • 30 mins
Google Podcasts to close; too soon?
Plus Melissa Kiesche, Senior Vice President at Edison Research, who unveils the meticulous process behind gathering listener data, providing us with a fresh perspective on the US and UK podcast charts and some exclusive data.
And, we'll take a sobering look at the potential dangers linked to headphone usage - a topic every podcaster should be aware of.
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- Fediverse: @james@bne.social and @samsethi@podcastindex.social
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Cridland (00:01):
It's Friday, the 29th of September.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The last word in podcasting news.
This is the Pod News WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.
James Cridland (00:13):
I'm James Cridland, the editor of Pod News
in London.
Sam Sethi's off this week Inthe chapters.
Today we take a look at the newEdison podcast metrics data for
the UK and we've exclusive datafrom it Plus.
Are you listening to this onheadphones?
They can be bad for yourhearing.
We speak to the broadcaster,who's warned them for 50 years.
This podcast is sponsored byBuzzsprout.
(00:35):
Last week, 3,347 people starteda podcast with Buzzsprout.
Podcast hosting made easy withpowerful tools, free learning
materials and remarkablecustomer support From your daily
newsletter, the Pod News WeeklyReview.
But first Google Podcasts is toclose.
The company announced theclosure of its third attempt of
(00:58):
a podcast app in emails tocreators and to audiences, as
well as in a blog post, but it'snot closing yet.
In fact, it's closing later in2024.
Whatever that's supposed tomean, the email promotes YouTube
music as an alternative, butthat doesn't yet have podcasts
in it in many countries,especially all of Europe, and it
(01:20):
doesn't yet support RSS feedseither, although apparently
that's coming soon, they say.
Now to me it might have been alittle bit better if they had
announced the closure once theyactually had a product that's
capable of replacing it, whichthey don't yet.
So the effect will be to harmYouTube music as people perhaps
find a better replacement sooner.
(01:40):
And that better replacement, bythe way, is either AntennaPod,
which is a free and open app, orPocketcasts, which is a
freemium app with lots of greatfeatures, or, you know, spotify.
Now to move on, the Edisonpodcast ranker UK was released.
Joe Rogan was number one, buthe was quite the outlier, with
(02:00):
the majority of the chart beingproper British content.
But how is it compiled and whatelse does it say?
I managed to get some exclusivedata out of the person in
charge.
Melissa Kiesche (02:12):
I'm Melissa Kishi and I'm a senior vice
president at Edison Research andI do a lot of things at Edison,
but the thing that is mostrelevant to what we're talking
about today is that I lead theEdison podcast metrics
subscription product both in theUS and now in the UK.
James Cridland (02:29):
Yes, and the UK numbers came out over the
weekend.
What are you measuring inEdison podcast metrics UK and
how do you compile that list?
Melissa Kiesche (02:38):
Sure.
So what we are ultimatelymeasuring is in order to do our
rankers is the weekly reachamong weekly podcast listeners.
So each quarter we are in thefield every single day.
We're interviewing at least2,000 weekly podcast listeners
each quarter.
So that means about 20 or 30listeners are participating in
(02:59):
the study each day.
And in the study itself, themain question that we're asking
people is to list all of thepodcasts that they've listened
to in the past week, and it's anopen-ended question.
There's no insane drop-downmenu.
That would be very cumbersomeand certainly probably very
biased if we had some sort of adrop-down menu.
And the question itself it'sactually a multi-step question
(03:21):
because we really want to makesure that people are considering
all of the places that they'redoing their listening.
We don't want them to justconsider what they might have on
their phone.
We want them to consider apps,websites, social media, youtube
all of the possibilities forwhere they might be consuming
podcasts.
James Cridland (03:40):
So it's not just asking them what podcast you
remember listening to last week.
It's a bit more focused.
Melissa Kiesche (03:46):
It's a bit more focused and we know that there
are still going to be somerecency things here.
The things that people listento or enjoy the most they may
think of first, but they'regiven these instructions on how
to actually access the listeninghistories in all of the places
that they do do their listening,so that that reporting is
really comprehensive, andthey're considering sources that
(04:07):
they may only accessoccasionally.
So that helps it to be prettycomprehensive and all-inclusive.
James Cridland (04:13):
So why do you do it that way and not just
talking to companies like Triton, talking to companies and
getting their log files and allthat kind of stuff?
Why do it as a survey?
Melissa Kiesche (04:25):
Well, we wanted comprehensiveness.
We wanted this to beall-inclusive.
We didn't want any service orshow or anything to be left out.
As you know, triton andPowTrack, the way they do their
download listing or theirdownload tracking, is based on
downloads and it's an opt-inprocess.
So only those companies thatare interested in kind of paying
to play are going to be listedin those rankers.
(04:48):
So we wanted the ability to puteverybody on the same playing
field and be able to rank allshows and then eventually all
networks in the same space.
James Cridland (04:58):
So you put together the list and the top 25
.
Was there anything thatsurprised you about the shows
that were in there?
Melissa Kiesche (05:08):
You know, I would say after four years of
putting out the US Ranker, Ithink I was just most pleasantly
surprised to see so muchUK-grown content.
I think there was this,unfortunately, this
American-ness in me that assumedthat there would be a lot more
in the top 25 that would havebeen coming out of the US, and
of course you see Joe Rogan atthe top.
(05:29):
There's a handful of other USshows, the daily stuff you
should know, impulsive, butreally everything else is just
like a testament to how uniqueBritish culture is and then I
think, ultimately how it's goingto impact the industry as a
whole.
I really hope that the Rankerencourages people outside the UK
to actually check out some ofthese titles and maybe we'll
(05:51):
start to see some of thesetitles up on our list as well in
the US.
James Cridland (05:55):
Yeah, I was curious as to whether or not you
saw any differences between thetypes of shows that are in the
top 25 in the US versus thetypes of shows that are in the
UK.
Melissa Kiesche (06:05):
Absolutely so.
Miranda points this out to someextent.
But the UK top 25, it's just awider range of subjects than we
see in the US.
Even with a standalone seriesformat, true crime is way more
prevalent in the US charts.
In fact I don't think there areany true crime shows in the top
25 in the UK and in the UnitedStates six of the top 25
(06:30):
actually fall into that category.
So you have Crime Junkie,dateline, nbc Morbid Serial, my
Favorite, murder, mr Bollen.
Those are all true crime showsthat make our top 25.
And I know that there iscertainly a push to bring some
of these shows to a wideraudience, to a more global
audience.
So perhaps that will change aswe track things over the next
(06:51):
couple of quarters.
But for now the UK is much lessinto true crime than we are
here in the US.
James Cridland (06:59):
Hooray, I think that's a good thing being a Brit
, even though I don't alwayslive in the UK.
Well, I don't live in the UK.
But I think the other thingthat occurred to me when I was
looking down the list is thatthere's an awful lot more
specialism.
I think in the UK list thereare shows about personal finance
(07:20):
.
There are shows about science.
It's a much more.
I think the US top 25, there'san awful lot of entertainment in
there, I think.
Melissa Kiesche (07:33):
Entertainment and just general, A lot of kind
of interview over that.
Each show itself is quitedifferent.
It's not, like you said, not asfocused as you might see.
So yeah, and certainly we arestarting to see some nostalgia
type of podcasts on the US list.
You look at something likeOffice Ladies.
(07:55):
That kind of rewatch style ofpodcast is starting to appear a
lot in our lists.
James Cridland (07:59):
So you're not just putting this together for
fun, this chart for fun,although it is great fun reading
it.
I guess it's part of the Edisonpodcast metrics product that
you make available in the US.
I see you making that availablein the UK as well.
Melissa Kiesche (08:15):
Yes, absolutely .
So I think that you knowputting this in the observer
this weekend it was our firstchance in the UK we didn't do
this in the US to really put itin the mainstream media and make
podcasting more water cooler.
You know something thatquarterly people would actually
talk about what's in the top 25.
We haven't really done that inthe United States.
(08:35):
The focus has really been forour clients, for our subscribers
.
So, yes, we will continue tohave kind of this mainstream
push out of the top 25.
But then our subscribers it'savailable now.
So, in addition to being ableto look at the podcast ranker or
network rankers, subscribershave access to a lot of data in
(08:57):
general on weekly podcastlisteners.
James Cridland (09:00):
So data like what sort of thing?
Melissa Kiesche (09:02):
Yes.
So the main question obviouslyis what they listened to in the
past week, but we also ask a tonof demographic questions.
We ask about their usage ofmedia and technology, their
podcast listening habits, whattype of content they consume and
a bunch of sales targetingquestions like are you going to
purchase a car in the next 12months?
So that allows shows that havea large enough sample to have
(09:26):
really access to a full showprofile so they can look at
their show, all their listeners,and be able to look at the
results of all of thosequestions really extensive
demographic information.
In the United States,subscribers are using this data.
They're tracking podcastlistening quarter over quarter.
It's a report card that they'resharing with internal
(09:46):
stakeholders how is podcastingdoing?
How are we doing, how are ourcompetitors doing?
And then, on top of that,subscribers they have the
ability to ask custom questionseach quarter, which is really
fun to see what they come upwith to ask.
I mean, we've certainly seenpeople ask about their specific
shows or platforms.
They might say test thefamiliarity or the likability of
(10:10):
new or current talent.
But here in the UK we have2,000 weekly podcast listeners
to talk to every quarter andsubscribers can really ask them
anything that they want.
So seeing all differentutilizations of that.
James Cridland (10:23):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
So what kind of customers doyou have for the Edison podcast
metrics product?
Melissa Kiesche (10:30):
So we have a lot of publisher-sized clients.
When we first launched this in2019, that was really the push
was to provide our publishers,to provide producers, with
information about the state ofweekly podcast listeners, but
then also what their listenerslook like and what their
competitors' listeners lookedlike.
But then maybe we're coming upon a year.
(10:52):
We started having conversationsabout the benefit of using this
information in a sales sense,so our publishers were using
this information to help selltheir shows.
But now we're seeing it beingused on the agency side.
So back in January I think youcovered this in Pod News we
signed an exclusive partnershipwith Nielsen to actually sell
(11:13):
this to agencies, so this isstarting to be in quite a few
agencies' hands.
They're using the rankers toreally be able to look at what
are the top shows amongdifferent demographics.
We also have in the US andeventually in the UK, an
efficiency ranker which allowsyou to determine your target and
find the shows that are mostlike the target that you're
(11:35):
looking to seek.
So if I'm trying to find a showwith lots of women that have
children, I can set that targetand then it will tell me the
shows that have the greatestmakeup of women with children,
If I'm looking to sell diapersor some other sort of baby
product.
James Cridland (11:52):
Yeah, and I guess that's another one of the
big differences between the UKmodel and the US model in that
the UK at least you know part ofthe podcasts that are in those
top 25, the BBC don't have anyadvertising on them in the UK,
and so I guess you know it's adifferent conversation there,
where they will probably beinterested in learning a little
(12:13):
bit more about the types ofpeople who they're reaching.
Melissa Kiesche (12:16):
Yes, absolutely , and that is the case for all
publishers that are here.
Some people in the UnitedStates are really using it just
to understand how is theawareness of their network
changing over time.
You know, how are they doingwith different demographics,
with different subgroups.
If they're really, if they'vedecided that they really want to
push shows that are meeting acertain demographic, are these
(12:38):
new shows actually getting themthere?
Is it changing the demographicsof their network as they've
added shows or, you know,brought in acquisitions and
things like that?
So, yeah, that's definitelybeen a way that people have used
this.
James Cridland (12:50):
Yeah, really interesting More details on that
.
At EdisonResearchcom We've seenthe top 25.
I'm just sort of wonderingwhether is there anything else
that this study has unveiledabout podcasts listening in the
UK that you might be able totell us.
Melissa Kiesche (13:05):
Absolutely.
So I'll give you a couple oflittle things, James.
So one of the questions that weask is what is the service that
people use most often to listento podcasts?
And it's probably not asurprise that Spotify comes in
at number one in the US and boththe UK.
So 33% of people in the UK saythat they're using Spotify the
(13:28):
most often to listen to podcasts.
That's followed by YouTube at19% and then BBC sounds at 15%.
So BBC Sounds coming in atnumber three there Obviously we
don't have BBC Sounds on ourchart and then Apple coming in
fourth third on the US chart andfourth on the UK chart.
Here, Apple 13%, saying thatthey use that the most often.
(13:51):
Then I will also give you wewere looking at the top shows
among women, so the top fiveshows among women change a
little bit from the top ingeneral.
So Rogan totally drops evenoutside of the top 15 among
(14:12):
women.
Wow really.
Yeah, so that means that hisnumber one position in the UK
it's almost entirely motivatedby male listening, whereas in
the United States Rogan is stillnumber two among women.
So that was pretty shocking forus to see that, to see it to
drop all the way down.
But the top five among womenDiary of a CEO Shagged, married,
(14:32):
annoyed, off Menu with EdGamble and James Acaster, which
are the three that are on themain list.
But what hops up among women inthe fourth and fifth place is
newlyweds, formerly callednearlyweds, and then number five
is happy place.
So certainly more female gearedcontent in the fourth and fifth
place there.
James Cridland (14:52):
That's really interesting, really interesting.
And how fascinating that Rogancompletely drops out of that
list.
That's fascinating stuff.
Excellent.
It's always nice to have anexclusive, so that's a great
thing.
When do we get the next roundof data, and will you be
releasing things like thepublisher charts as well at some
(15:14):
point?
Melissa Kiesche (15:14):
So we just finished feeling or actually I
guess we have a few more days inthe field for quarter three.
It takes us about a month toprocess the data.
While we are able to code a lotof the open-ended question
algorithmically, there is stilla ton, especially since it's new
in the UK, that we do need todo by hand.
So we need to kind of gothrough and determine if a show
(15:36):
is correctly listed and then ifit is properly attributed to the
producer and then the publisher, the network.
So we will probably release thenext one I would say early
November is the goal to put thatout and we will definitely
continue with the top 25 shows.
We will probably add network atthat point.
(15:56):
At minimum we will see topgenres, which will be
interesting to see to how thattracks against the UK if we see
true crime kind of falling downbased on what we see in the
ranker itself.
James Cridland (16:08):
Yeah, yeah, really, really fascinating.
Well, melissa, thank you somuch for your time and, as a
Brit, it is wonderful.
After so many failed attemptsto get a proper ranker for
podcasting, it's really nice toactually see one.
So thank you for that and, yeah, and I'm looking forward to
(16:30):
seeing how the figures change.
Melissa Kiesche (16:32):
Awesome.
I appreciate it, James.
We'll talk soon.
James Cridland (16:34):
Melissa Kishi from Edison Research.
Now are you listening to thisshow on headphones?
You might want to check thevolume because they could be too
loud.
Here's someone who's cranked upthe volume for 50 years.
Shelli Sonstein (16:50):
Shelly Sunstein and I am the cohost of the Jim
Kerr rock and roll morning showon America's most listened to
rock station, Q104.3.
James Cridland (17:03):
Yes, so you started in radio on WMMR in
Philadelphia 50 years ago thisyear and now working, as you say
, for Q104.3, new York's classicrock.
You've been working in radiofor half of its entire history.
You must have seen a lot ofchanges.
Shelli Sonstein (17:20):
Of course, of course.
But you know, I'm happy thatI'm still here doing what I love
, but I mean, the changes arejust extraordinary over the
years.
Some are good, some are bad,but I think you have to adapt.
Look, there's only one thingyou can count on in life other
(17:40):
than taxes, and that is change.
So you have to go for the flow.
There's no going backward,there's only moving forward, and
that's what I do.
James Cridland (17:50):
I got my job in radio because I could edit reel
to reel tape Some people say Ilearned.
Shelli Sonstein (17:56):
I learned on a block, you know, with the razor
blade and I'm not with my hands.
But, I was good with the sound.
James Cridland (18:06):
Yeah, it was.
It was a great skill to have,back in the day, completely
useless skill.
Now Some people say thatradio's best days are behind us.
What do you think?
Shelli Sonstein (18:17):
Absolutely not.
First of all, in an emergency,we are all you have left.
Computers go down, TV signalsgo down.
During Superstorm Sandy, whichwas sort of hurricane-ish here a
few years back, we were alifeline.
(18:39):
We were the only way peoplecould get instructions or
information, and that continuesto this day.
James Cridland (18:49):
Yeah, it's a big thing.
I live in Australia normallyI'm in London today but
Australia again incrediblyimportant in terms of bushfires,
in terms of floods, you know,and everything else.
So radio is a real lifeline, Ithink.
In terms of that, I think oneof the big changes for radio
these days is that there arecameras in studios.
(19:10):
Now I saw a TikTok of youexplaining to Trevor what
chocolate milk was.
How have cameras changed whatyou do?
Shelli Sonstein (19:20):
You know, it just broadens our audience.
I think I am fine with it.
I mean, I would be fine withhaving our entire show on camera
.
My co-host doesn't agreebecause that would include
behind the scenes, but I'm allabout.
You know, just pull the curtainapart.
I think it would be fascinating.
(19:40):
But not everybody agrees withme.
But I am absolutely fine withthe use of the camera.
I'm in favor of expanding ourplatform any way we can, and the
camera is one part of that.
This is one of the beauties ofbroadcasting and the changes of
broadcasting.
We learn as we go along.
(20:01):
You know what's working, what'snot working.
It's always a surprise and it'sa revelation to me.
James Cridland (20:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I think there are certain things
about radio.
I was with Valarie Geller, whoI'm sure that you know, a very
big radio consultant, and thereare things that work with radio
that have always worked in termsof radio.
You know, telling the truth,making it matter, never be
boring, all that kind of stuff.
But there are also lots ofthings that are changing in
terms of radio as well.
(20:30):
Right Now you've been sent myway because of something which
is important, which is ourhearing, and when we work in
radio or when we work inpodcasting, we're wearing
headphones a lot and quite oftenwe've got them quite loud a
little bit too loud, I wouldguess.
Shelli Sonstein (20:48):
Right, and that's what I have hearing loss.
It's not profound hearing loss,but it's hearing loss that I've
noticed more over the last fewyears.
I did not notice it on airbecause, as you say, james, we
wear.
We wear hearing aids, we'rewearing headphones so we can
(21:10):
amplify the sound.
But that said, since I've beenin rock radio and country radio
a little bit for my entirecareer, when you hear a song,
you, like you, crank it up and Icreated hearing damage.
Now that is more widespread thanever because of everybody using
(21:33):
earbuds and, just again,cranking it up.
We're seeing hearing loss inkids.
So you don't have any shamewearing glasses, I wear glasses,
you wear glasses, you know, youjust hear.
Oh, when you're over 40 chancesor you're gonna need glasses,
(21:55):
you would never say, oh, I'm notgoing to an eye doctor because
I you know that's a handicap andI'd be ashamed of that.
No, it's the same thing withhearing loss.
Everyone should go to a hearingdoctor and get their ears
tested.
Parents, if you're listening,you know, test your kids.
(22:15):
Your kids are cranking up theearbuds, you're not ashamed.
Yet there is this oh, I'm oldif I need hearing aids.
James Cridland (22:26):
I have to say I went to get my hearing checked
last year and they said thatI've got a little bit of hearing
loss, but frankly not that much, and I was so delighted because
I didn't want to feel old.
So you're absolutely right.
Shelli Sonstein (22:39):
But it has nothing to do with being old and
also we're so used to peoplewearing earbuds.
I mean, with my Widex hearingaids, it's just a coolness
factor now it's and they're notlike your parents or your
grandparents' hearing aids.
A lot of what you can do withthe hearing aids is through an
(23:01):
app on the phone I can streamwhen I am FaceTiming my
grandkids.
I can finally hear them becauseI'm hearing them not through
the phone but through my hearingaids, because it's paired to my
phone, which is it's like alittle miracle for me because
(23:23):
instead of kind of being afraidto jump on a FaceTime call with
them, now I can hear them.
James Cridland (23:30):
Well, so you noticed your hearing was going
and you tried some hearing aids,and I guess there are good
headphones and bad headphones.
Radio presenters get veryannoyed when the chief engineer
at the radio station changes theheadphones because headphones
sound a particular way, and Iguess that there are good
hearing aids and bad hearingaids as well.
Lother.
Shelli Sonstein (23:50):
Right now here, just like I thought you go to,
and for getting your eyes tested, you get a pair of glasses.
They work, but not all hearingaids are created equal, so I had
tried one and whereas it was animprovement, I was really,
really dissatisfied.
(24:11):
So I was really happy withWidex because it has pure
natural sound and that'ssomething that's so important
when audio is the way you makeyour living.
I mean, there are certainsounds that I just love hearing.
(24:33):
It sounds really strange, butif you're in like an auditorium,
I remember when I was a littlekid and we were in an auditorium
in public school and everybodywas supposed to be quiet but I
would love the sound of peoplegoing through their backpacks,
just those sounds that I canhear.
Again, it sounds really strange, but that was one of my
(24:56):
favorite sounds Hearing peoplego through like their purses and
their backpacks.
Just who knew that I was gonnago into radio or audio was my
living.
That and hearing the song ofthe birds when I'm out hiking
with my dog, and even hearing acrunchy leaf I can hear it hit
(25:19):
the ground.
I couldn't hear that before andthese are little things that
everybody takes for grantedbecause if that's just part of
your life, but when it's gone,oh my God, you really really
appreciate it when it's back.
The other thing that was reallyan issue was I would absolutely
(25:43):
dread going to restaurants withmy husband and friends because
in a noisy restaurant andthey're pumping the music I
couldn't hear.
I couldn't hear theconversations.
Widex actually has an externalmic, so I will place that in my
husband's pocket.
(26:03):
Nobody knows it's there, butwhen I hear him, I don't have to
just kind of look at him andsmile through the meal.
I mean, I would smile at himanyway.
James Cridland (26:15):
Of course, of course.
Shelli Sonstein (26:17):
I mean, imagine dreading a social situation.
You don't have to.
You don't have to.
You can go to a hearing doctor,find out if there's hearing
loss and then check out theWidex hearing aids.
James Cridland (26:33):
So what's your advice to podcasters and indeed
people in radio who wearheadphones a lot?
Shelli Sonstein (26:40):
Try to not crank them up like I did over
the years.
And you know what?
I'm probably still doing itanyway and I'm thinking to
myself oh, I could be, you know,exacerbating my hearing loss,
but no, I remember the day.
James Cridland (26:55):
I remember the day when somebody from health
and safety came to the radiostation that I was working on
and they insisted on putting amaximum volume level on the
headphones, which was far tooquiet for anybody.
Nobody liked it.
It was probably a good thing.
So the advice is to watch thevolume, I guess.
Shelli Sonstein (27:15):
Absolutely.
I wish there was like anotation for this should be your
max, and there isn't.
Frankly, there isn't in mystudio where I work.
I shouldn't be doing it.
James Cridland (27:31):
Well, there you go, but it's good to hear that
you found the solution with yourWidex hearing aids and, shelly,
I really appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
Shelli Sonstein (27:42):
Thank you, james, and best of luck to you.
James Cridland (27:44):
Shelly Sonstein speaking to me from her home
studio, with a PR person for acertain hearing aid company
listening in, but I reckon it'ssound advice, regardless of the
heavy plug that she managed todo.
Boostergram corner, corner,corner on the Pod News Weekly
Review.
Yes, it's our favorite time ofthe week.
(28:05):
2,222 sats from Gene Bean.
He says my two cents.
A remote item playlist shouldshow up like any other podcast
in an app.
He's, of course, talking tosomething we were talking about
last week, sam and I, talkingabout how a remote item playlist
(28:25):
should appear, and I wouldentirely agree with you, gene
Bean.
Thank you for the Row of Ducks.
Double two, two sats Also.
He sent another Row of Ducks alittle bit later saying happy
belated birthday, sam.
He'll be delighted.
And Kyren from the MereMotalspodcast also sent a Row of Ducks
.
It seems to be the fan he saysboosting for a great show, with
(28:49):
an emoji of now, what's that?
That's somebody wearing a hatand celebrating something.
Anyway, kyren, thank you somuch.
Sam and I share everything fromthis show.
We really appreciate yoursupport.
You can become a powersupporter at weeklypodnewsnet
(29:10):
armed with your credit card, oryou can send a boost in your
podcast app, like Podfans orFountain maybe.
Podfans, of course, is justgone into beta, so if you want
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Sam has been busy working onthat, and Sam and I have had
also a busy week with Pod NewsLive, which was held on
(29:32):
Wednesday, which is why thisshow sounds a little bit
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We're back to normal next week,though.
This show uses clean feed.
Our voice server is Sheila Dee,our music is by Studio
Dragonfly, and we're hosted andsponsored by Buzzsprout.
Podcast hosting made easy.
It's Friday, the 29th of September.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The last word in podcasting news.
This is the Pod News WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.
James Cridland (00:13):
I'm James Cridland, the editor of Pod News
in London.
Sam Sethi's off this week Inthe chapters.
Today we take a look at the newEdison podcast metrics data for
the UK and we've exclusive datafrom it Plus.
Are you listening to this onheadphones?
They can be bad for yourhearing.
We speak to the broadcaster,who's warned them for 50 years.
This podcast is sponsored byBuzzsprout.
(00:35):
Last week, 3,347 people starteda podcast with Buzzsprout.
Podcast hosting made easy withpowerful tools, free learning
materials and remarkablecustomer support From your daily
newsletter, the Pod News WeeklyReview.
But first Google Podcasts is toclose.
The company announced theclosure of its third attempt of
(00:58):
a podcast app in emails tocreators and to audiences, as
well as in a blog post, but it'snot closing yet.
In fact, it's closing later in2024.
Whatever that's supposed tomean, the email promotes YouTube
music as an alternative, butthat doesn't yet have podcasts
in it in many countries,especially all of Europe, and it
(01:20):
doesn't yet support RSS feedseither, although apparently
that's coming soon, they say.
Now to me it might have been alittle bit better if they had
announced the closure once theyactually had a product that's
capable of replacing it, whichthey don't yet.
So the effect will be to harmYouTube music as people perhaps
find a better replacement sooner.
(01:40):
And that better replacement, bythe way, is either AntennaPod,
which is a free and open app, orPocketcasts, which is a
freemium app with lots of greatfeatures, or, you know, spotify.
Now to move on, the Edisonpodcast ranker UK was released.
Joe Rogan was number one, buthe was quite the outlier, with
(02:00):
the majority of the chart beingproper British content.
But how is it compiled and whatelse does it say?
I managed to get some exclusivedata out of the person in
charge.
Melissa Kiesche (02:12):
I'm Melissa Kishi and I'm a senior vice
president at Edison Research andI do a lot of things at Edison,
but the thing that is mostrelevant to what we're talking
about today is that I lead theEdison podcast metrics
subscription product both in theUS and now in the UK.
James Cridland (02:29):
Yes, and the UK numbers came out over the
weekend.
What are you measuring inEdison podcast metrics UK and
how do you compile that list?
Melissa Kiesche (02:38):
Sure.
So what we are ultimatelymeasuring is in order to do our
rankers is the weekly reachamong weekly podcast listeners.
So each quarter we are in thefield every single day.
We're interviewing at least2,000 weekly podcast listeners
each quarter.
So that means about 20 or 30listeners are participating in
(02:59):
the study each day.
And in the study itself, themain question that we're asking
people is to list all of thepodcasts that they've listened
to in the past week, and it's anopen-ended question.
There's no insane drop-downmenu.
That would be very cumbersomeand certainly probably very
biased if we had some sort of adrop-down menu.
And the question itself it'sactually a multi-step question
(03:21):
because we really want to makesure that people are considering
all of the places that they'redoing their listening.
We don't want them to justconsider what they might have on
their phone.
We want them to consider apps,websites, social media, youtube
all of the possibilities forwhere they might be consuming
podcasts.
James Cridland (03:40):
So it's not just asking them what podcast you
remember listening to last week.
It's a bit more focused.
Melissa Kiesche (03:46):
It's a bit more focused and we know that there
are still going to be somerecency things here.
The things that people listento or enjoy the most they may
think of first, but they'regiven these instructions on how
to actually access the listeninghistories in all of the places
that they do do their listening,so that that reporting is
really comprehensive, andthey're considering sources that
(04:07):
they may only accessoccasionally.
So that helps it to be prettycomprehensive and all-inclusive.
James Cridland (04:13):
So why do you do it that way and not just
talking to companies like Triton, talking to companies and
getting their log files and allthat kind of stuff?
Why do it as a survey?
Melissa Kiesche (04:25):
Well, we wanted comprehensiveness.
We wanted this to beall-inclusive.
We didn't want any service orshow or anything to be left out.
As you know, triton andPowTrack, the way they do their
download listing or theirdownload tracking, is based on
downloads and it's an opt-inprocess.
So only those companies thatare interested in kind of paying
to play are going to be listedin those rankers.
(04:48):
So we wanted the ability to puteverybody on the same playing
field and be able to rank allshows and then eventually all
networks in the same space.
James Cridland (04:58):
So you put together the list and the top 25
.
Was there anything thatsurprised you about the shows
that were in there?
Melissa Kiesche (05:08):
You know, I would say after four years of
putting out the US Ranker, Ithink I was just most pleasantly
surprised to see so muchUK-grown content.
I think there was this,unfortunately, this
American-ness in me that assumedthat there would be a lot more
in the top 25 that would havebeen coming out of the US, and
of course you see Joe Rogan atthe top.
(05:29):
There's a handful of other USshows, the daily stuff you
should know, impulsive, butreally everything else is just
like a testament to how uniqueBritish culture is and then I
think, ultimately how it's goingto impact the industry as a
whole.
I really hope that the Rankerencourages people outside the UK
to actually check out some ofthese titles and maybe we'll
(05:51):
start to see some of thesetitles up on our list as well in
the US.
James Cridland (05:55):
Yeah, I was curious as to whether or not you
saw any differences between thetypes of shows that are in the
top 25 in the US versus thetypes of shows that are in the
UK.
Melissa Kiesche (06:05):
Absolutely so.
Miranda points this out to someextent.
But the UK top 25, it's just awider range of subjects than we
see in the US.
Even with a standalone seriesformat, true crime is way more
prevalent in the US charts.
In fact I don't think there areany true crime shows in the top
25 in the UK and in the UnitedStates six of the top 25
(06:30):
actually fall into that category.
So you have Crime Junkie,dateline, nbc Morbid Serial, my
Favorite, murder, mr Bollen.
Those are all true crime showsthat make our top 25.
And I know that there iscertainly a push to bring some
of these shows to a wideraudience, to a more global
audience.
So perhaps that will change aswe track things over the next
(06:51):
couple of quarters.
But for now the UK is much lessinto true crime than we are
here in the US.
James Cridland (06:59):
Hooray, I think that's a good thing being a Brit
, even though I don't alwayslive in the UK.
Well, I don't live in the UK.
But I think the other thingthat occurred to me when I was
looking down the list is thatthere's an awful lot more
specialism.
I think in the UK list thereare shows about personal finance
(07:20):
.
There are shows about science.
It's a much more.
I think the US top 25, there'san awful lot of entertainment in
there, I think.
Melissa Kiesche (07:33):
Entertainment and just general, A lot of kind
of interview over that.
Each show itself is quitedifferent.
It's not, like you said, not asfocused as you might see.
So yeah, and certainly we arestarting to see some nostalgia
type of podcasts on the US list.
You look at something likeOffice Ladies.
(07:55):
That kind of rewatch style ofpodcast is starting to appear a
lot in our lists.
James Cridland (07:59):
So you're not just putting this together for
fun, this chart for fun,although it is great fun reading
it.
I guess it's part of the Edisonpodcast metrics product that
you make available in the US.
I see you making that availablein the UK as well.
Melissa Kiesche (08:15):
Yes, absolutely .
So I think that you knowputting this in the observer
this weekend it was our firstchance in the UK we didn't do
this in the US to really put itin the mainstream media and make
podcasting more water cooler.
You know something thatquarterly people would actually
talk about what's in the top 25.
We haven't really done that inthe United States.
(08:35):
The focus has really been forour clients, for our subscribers
.
So, yes, we will continue tohave kind of this mainstream
push out of the top 25.
But then our subscribers it'savailable now.
So, in addition to being ableto look at the podcast ranker or
network rankers, subscribershave access to a lot of data in
(08:57):
general on weekly podcastlisteners.
James Cridland (09:00):
So data like what sort of thing?
Melissa Kiesche (09:02):
Yes.
So the main question obviouslyis what they listened to in the
past week, but we also ask a tonof demographic questions.
We ask about their usage ofmedia and technology, their
podcast listening habits, whattype of content they consume and
a bunch of sales targetingquestions like are you going to
purchase a car in the next 12months?
So that allows shows that havea large enough sample to have
(09:26):
really access to a full showprofile so they can look at
their show, all their listeners,and be able to look at the
results of all of thosequestions really extensive
demographic information.
In the United States,subscribers are using this data.
They're tracking podcastlistening quarter over quarter.
It's a report card that they'resharing with internal
(09:46):
stakeholders how is podcastingdoing?
How are we doing, how are ourcompetitors doing?
And then, on top of that,subscribers they have the
ability to ask custom questionseach quarter, which is really
fun to see what they come upwith to ask.
I mean, we've certainly seenpeople ask about their specific
shows or platforms.
They might say test thefamiliarity or the likability of
(10:10):
new or current talent.
But here in the UK we have2,000 weekly podcast listeners
to talk to every quarter andsubscribers can really ask them
anything that they want.
So seeing all differentutilizations of that.
James Cridland (10:23):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
So what kind of customers doyou have for the Edison podcast
metrics product?
Melissa Kiesche (10:30):
So we have a lot of publisher-sized clients.
When we first launched this in2019, that was really the push
was to provide our publishers,to provide producers, with
information about the state ofweekly podcast listeners, but
then also what their listenerslook like and what their
competitors' listeners lookedlike.
But then maybe we're coming upon a year.
(10:52):
We started having conversationsabout the benefit of using this
information in a sales sense,so our publishers were using
this information to help selltheir shows.
But now we're seeing it beingused on the agency side.
So back in January I think youcovered this in Pod News we
signed an exclusive partnershipwith Nielsen to actually sell
(11:13):
this to agencies, so this isstarting to be in quite a few
agencies' hands.
They're using the rankers toreally be able to look at what
are the top shows amongdifferent demographics.
We also have in the US andeventually in the UK, an
efficiency ranker which allowsyou to determine your target and
find the shows that are mostlike the target that you're
(11:35):
looking to seek.
So if I'm trying to find a showwith lots of women that have
children, I can set that targetand then it will tell me the
shows that have the greatestmakeup of women with children,
If I'm looking to sell diapersor some other sort of baby
product.
James Cridland (11:52):
Yeah, and I guess that's another one of the
big differences between the UKmodel and the US model in that
the UK at least you know part ofthe podcasts that are in those
top 25, the BBC don't have anyadvertising on them in the UK,
and so I guess you know it's adifferent conversation there,
where they will probably beinterested in learning a little
(12:13):
bit more about the types ofpeople who they're reaching.
Melissa Kiesche (12:16):
Yes, absolutely , and that is the case for all
publishers that are here.
Some people in the UnitedStates are really using it just
to understand how is theawareness of their network
changing over time.
You know, how are they doingwith different demographics,
with different subgroups.
If they're really, if they'vedecided that they really want to
push shows that are meeting acertain demographic, are these
(12:38):
new shows actually getting themthere?
Is it changing the demographicsof their network as they've
added shows or, you know,brought in acquisitions and
things like that?
So, yeah, that's definitelybeen a way that people have used
this.
James Cridland (12:50):
Yeah, really interesting More details on that
.
At EdisonResearchcom We've seenthe top 25.
I'm just sort of wonderingwhether is there anything else
that this study has unveiledabout podcasts listening in the
UK that you might be able totell us.
Melissa Kiesche (13:05):
Absolutely.
So I'll give you a couple oflittle things, James.
So one of the questions that weask is what is the service that
people use most often to listento podcasts?
And it's probably not asurprise that Spotify comes in
at number one in the US and boththe UK.
So 33% of people in the UK saythat they're using Spotify the
(13:28):
most often to listen to podcasts.
That's followed by YouTube at19% and then BBC sounds at 15%.
So BBC Sounds coming in atnumber three there Obviously we
don't have BBC Sounds on ourchart and then Apple coming in
fourth third on the US chart andfourth on the UK chart.
Here, Apple 13%, saying thatthey use that the most often.
(13:51):
Then I will also give you wewere looking at the top shows
among women, so the top fiveshows among women change a
little bit from the top ingeneral.
So Rogan totally drops evenoutside of the top 15 among
(14:12):
women.
Wow really.
Yeah, so that means that hisnumber one position in the UK
it's almost entirely motivatedby male listening, whereas in
the United States Rogan is stillnumber two among women.
So that was pretty shocking forus to see that, to see it to
drop all the way down.
But the top five among womenDiary of a CEO Shagged, married,
(14:32):
annoyed, off Menu with EdGamble and James Acaster, which
are the three that are on themain list.
But what hops up among women inthe fourth and fifth place is
newlyweds, formerly callednearlyweds, and then number five
is happy place.
So certainly more female gearedcontent in the fourth and fifth
place there.
James Cridland (14:52):
That's really interesting, really interesting.
And how fascinating that Rogancompletely drops out of that
list.
That's fascinating stuff.
Excellent.
It's always nice to have anexclusive, so that's a great
thing.
When do we get the next roundof data, and will you be
releasing things like thepublisher charts as well at some
(15:14):
point?
Melissa Kiesche (15:14):
So we just finished feeling or actually I
guess we have a few more days inthe field for quarter three.
It takes us about a month toprocess the data.
While we are able to code a lotof the open-ended question
algorithmically, there is stilla ton, especially since it's new
in the UK, that we do need todo by hand.
So we need to kind of gothrough and determine if a show
(15:36):
is correctly listed and then ifit is properly attributed to the
producer and then the publisher, the network.
So we will probably release thenext one I would say early
November is the goal to put thatout and we will definitely
continue with the top 25 shows.
We will probably add network atthat point.
(15:56):
At minimum we will see topgenres, which will be
interesting to see to how thattracks against the UK if we see
true crime kind of falling downbased on what we see in the
ranker itself.
James Cridland (16:08):
Yeah, yeah, really, really fascinating.
Well, melissa, thank you somuch for your time and, as a
Brit, it is wonderful.
After so many failed attemptsto get a proper ranker for
podcasting, it's really nice toactually see one.
So thank you for that and, yeah, and I'm looking forward to
(16:30):
seeing how the figures change.
Melissa Kiesche (16:32):
Awesome.
I appreciate it, James.
We'll talk soon.
James Cridland (16:34):
Melissa Kishi from Edison Research.
Now are you listening to thisshow on headphones?
You might want to check thevolume because they could be too
loud.
Here's someone who's cranked upthe volume for 50 years.
Shelli Sonstein (16:50):
Shelly Sunstein and I am the cohost of the Jim
Kerr rock and roll morning showon America's most listened to
rock station, Q104.3.
James Cridland (17:03):
Yes, so you started in radio on WMMR in
Philadelphia 50 years ago thisyear and now working, as you say
, for Q104.3, new York's classicrock.
You've been working in radiofor half of its entire history.
You must have seen a lot ofchanges.
Shelli Sonstein (17:20):
Of course, of course.
But you know, I'm happy thatI'm still here doing what I love
, but I mean, the changes arejust extraordinary over the
years.
Some are good, some are bad,but I think you have to adapt.
Look, there's only one thingyou can count on in life other
(17:40):
than taxes, and that is change.
So you have to go for the flow.
There's no going backward,there's only moving forward, and
that's what I do.
James Cridland (17:50):
I got my job in radio because I could edit reel
to reel tape Some people say Ilearned.
Shelli Sonstein (17:56):
I learned on a block, you know, with the razor
blade and I'm not with my hands.
But, I was good with the sound.
James Cridland (18:06):
Yeah, it was.
It was a great skill to have,back in the day, completely
useless skill.
Now Some people say thatradio's best days are behind us.
What do you think?
Shelli Sonstein (18:17):
Absolutely not.
First of all, in an emergency,we are all you have left.
Computers go down, TV signalsgo down.
During Superstorm Sandy, whichwas sort of hurricane-ish here a
few years back, we were alifeline.
(18:39):
We were the only way peoplecould get instructions or
information, and that continuesto this day.
James Cridland (18:49):
Yeah, it's a big thing.
I live in Australia normallyI'm in London today but
Australia again incrediblyimportant in terms of bushfires,
in terms of floods, you know,and everything else.
So radio is a real lifeline, Ithink.
In terms of that, I think oneof the big changes for radio
these days is that there arecameras in studios.
(19:10):
Now I saw a TikTok of youexplaining to Trevor what
chocolate milk was.
How have cameras changed whatyou do?
Shelli Sonstein (19:20):
You know, it just broadens our audience.
I think I am fine with it.
I mean, I would be fine withhaving our entire show on camera
.
My co-host doesn't agreebecause that would include
behind the scenes, but I'm allabout.
You know, just pull the curtainapart.
I think it would be fascinating.
(19:40):
But not everybody agrees withme.
But I am absolutely fine withthe use of the camera.
I'm in favor of expanding ourplatform any way we can, and the
camera is one part of that.
This is one of the beauties ofbroadcasting and the changes of
broadcasting.
We learn as we go along.
(20:01):
You know what's working, what'snot working.
It's always a surprise and it'sa revelation to me.
James Cridland (20:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I think there are certain things
about radio.
I was with Valarie Geller, whoI'm sure that you know, a very
big radio consultant, and thereare things that work with radio
that have always worked in termsof radio.
You know, telling the truth,making it matter, never be
boring, all that kind of stuff.
But there are also lots ofthings that are changing in
terms of radio as well.
(20:30):
Right Now you've been sent myway because of something which
is important, which is ourhearing, and when we work in
radio or when we work inpodcasting, we're wearing
headphones a lot and quite oftenwe've got them quite loud a
little bit too loud, I wouldguess.
Shelli Sonstein (20:48):
Right, and that's what I have hearing loss.
It's not profound hearing loss,but it's hearing loss that I've
noticed more over the last fewyears.
I did not notice it on airbecause, as you say, james, we
wear.
We wear hearing aids, we'rewearing headphones so we can
(21:10):
amplify the sound.
But that said, since I've beenin rock radio and country radio
a little bit for my entirecareer, when you hear a song,
you, like you, crank it up and Icreated hearing damage.
Now that is more widespread thanever because of everybody using
(21:33):
earbuds and, just again,cranking it up.
We're seeing hearing loss inkids.
So you don't have any shamewearing glasses, I wear glasses,
you wear glasses, you know, youjust hear.
Oh, when you're over 40 chancesor you're gonna need glasses,
(21:55):
you would never say, oh, I'm notgoing to an eye doctor because
I you know that's a handicap andI'd be ashamed of that.
No, it's the same thing withhearing loss.
Everyone should go to a hearingdoctor and get their ears
tested.
Parents, if you're listening,you know, test your kids.
(22:15):
Your kids are cranking up theearbuds, you're not ashamed.
Yet there is this oh, I'm oldif I need hearing aids.
James Cridland (22:26):
I have to say I went to get my hearing checked
last year and they said thatI've got a little bit of hearing
loss, but frankly not that much, and I was so delighted because
I didn't want to feel old.
So you're absolutely right.
Shelli Sonstein (22:39):
But it has nothing to do with being old and
also we're so used to peoplewearing earbuds.
I mean, with my Widex hearingaids, it's just a coolness
factor now it's and they're notlike your parents or your
grandparents' hearing aids.
A lot of what you can do withthe hearing aids is through an
(23:01):
app on the phone I can streamwhen I am FaceTiming my
grandkids.
I can finally hear them becauseI'm hearing them not through
the phone but through my hearingaids, because it's paired to my
phone, which is it's like alittle miracle for me because
(23:23):
instead of kind of being afraidto jump on a FaceTime call with
them, now I can hear them.
James Cridland (23:30):
Well, so you noticed your hearing was going
and you tried some hearing aids,and I guess there are good
headphones and bad headphones.
Radio presenters get veryannoyed when the chief engineer
at the radio station changes theheadphones because headphones
sound a particular way, and Iguess that there are good
hearing aids and bad hearingaids as well.
Lother.
Shelli Sonstein (23:50):
Right now here, just like I thought you go to,
and for getting your eyes tested, you get a pair of glasses.
They work, but not all hearingaids are created equal, so I had
tried one and whereas it was animprovement, I was really,
really dissatisfied.
(24:11):
So I was really happy withWidex because it has pure
natural sound and that'ssomething that's so important
when audio is the way you makeyour living.
I mean, there are certainsounds that I just love hearing.
(24:33):
It sounds really strange, butif you're in like an auditorium,
I remember when I was a littlekid and we were in an auditorium
in public school and everybodywas supposed to be quiet but I
would love the sound of peoplegoing through their backpacks,
just those sounds that I canhear.
Again, it sounds really strange, but that was one of my
(24:56):
favorite sounds Hearing peoplego through like their purses and
their backpacks.
Just who knew that I was gonnago into radio or audio was my
living.
That and hearing the song ofthe birds when I'm out hiking
with my dog, and even hearing acrunchy leaf I can hear it hit
(25:19):
the ground.
I couldn't hear that before andthese are little things that
everybody takes for grantedbecause if that's just part of
your life, but when it's gone,oh my God, you really really
appreciate it when it's back.
The other thing that was reallyan issue was I would absolutely
(25:43):
dread going to restaurants withmy husband and friends because
in a noisy restaurant andthey're pumping the music I
couldn't hear.
I couldn't hear theconversations.
Widex actually has an externalmic, so I will place that in my
husband's pocket.
(26:03):
Nobody knows it's there, butwhen I hear him, I don't have to
just kind of look at him andsmile through the meal.
I mean, I would smile at himanyway.
James Cridland (26:15):
Of course, of course.
Shelli Sonstein (26:17):
I mean, imagine dreading a social situation.
You don't have to.
You don't have to.
You can go to a hearing doctor,find out if there's hearing
loss and then check out theWidex hearing aids.
James Cridland (26:33):
So what's your advice to podcasters and indeed
people in radio who wearheadphones a lot?
Shelli Sonstein (26:40):
Try to not crank them up like I did over
the years.
And you know what?
I'm probably still doing itanyway and I'm thinking to
myself oh, I could be, you know,exacerbating my hearing loss,
but no, I remember the day.
James Cridland (26:55):
I remember the day when somebody from health
and safety came to the radiostation that I was working on
and they insisted on putting amaximum volume level on the
headphones, which was far tooquiet for anybody.
Nobody liked it.
It was probably a good thing.
So the advice is to watch thevolume, I guess.
Shelli Sonstein (27:15):
Absolutely.
I wish there was like anotation for this should be your
max, and there isn't.
Frankly, there isn't in mystudio where I work.
I shouldn't be doing it.
James Cridland (27:31):
Well, there you go, but it's good to hear that
you found the solution with yourWidex hearing aids and, shelly,
I really appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
Shelli Sonstein (27:42):
Thank you, james, and best of luck to you.
James Cridland (27:44):
Shelly Sonstein speaking to me from her home
studio, with a PR person for acertain hearing aid company
listening in, but I reckon it'ssound advice, regardless of the
heavy plug that she managed todo.
Boostergram corner, corner,corner on the Pod News Weekly
Review.
Yes, it's our favorite time ofthe week.
(28:05):
2,222 sats from Gene Bean.
He says my two cents.
A remote item playlist shouldshow up like any other podcast
in an app.
He's, of course, talking tosomething we were talking about
last week, sam and I, talkingabout how a remote item playlist
(28:25):
should appear, and I wouldentirely agree with you, gene
Bean.
Thank you for the Row of Ducks.
Double two, two sats Also.
He sent another Row of Ducks alittle bit later saying happy
belated birthday, sam.
He'll be delighted.
And Kyren from the MereMotalspodcast also sent a Row of Ducks
.
It seems to be the fan he saysboosting for a great show, with
(28:49):
an emoji of now, what's that?
That's somebody wearing a hatand celebrating something.
Anyway, kyren, thank you somuch.
Sam and I share everything fromthis show.
We really appreciate yoursupport.
You can become a powersupporter at weeklypodnewsnet
(29:10):
armed with your credit card, oryou can send a boost in your
podcast app, like Podfans orFountain maybe.
Podfans, of course, is justgone into beta, so if you want
to have a play with that,podfansfm.
Sam has been busy working onthat, and Sam and I have had
also a busy week with Pod NewsLive, which was held on
(29:32):
Wednesday, which is why thisshow sounds a little bit
different this week.
We're back to normal next week,though.
This show uses clean feed.
Our voice server is Sheila Dee,our music is by Studio
Dragonfly, and we're hosted andsponsored by Buzzsprout.
Podcast hosting made easy.
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