March 17, 2025 • 49 mins
Annalise Nielsen shares her expert insights on YouTube's dominance in podcast consumption and why video strategy needs careful consideration rather than automatic implementation. She explains how different audiences require different approaches to content creation and platform distribution.
• YouTube is now the top platform for podcast consumption, but this doesn't mean video is right for every show
• Only about 30% of podcast consumption happens on YouTube, and much of this isn't active video watching
• Live podcasting is growing as a way to build audience interaction and deeper parasocial relationships
• Spotify's pivot to video seems disconnected from how users typically engage with the platform
• The "attention diet" concept helps creators understand where their target audience already spends time
• Podcast diversity is declining despite women controlling most purchasing decisions
• Different audience segments (executives vs. young consumers) require completely different format approaches
• Video podcast creation requires significant investment and means sacrificing some audio-only capabilities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Pod News Weekly Review with Buzzsprout.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We joined today by Annalise Nielsen.
Now she is Head of PodcastStrategy and Development at
Pacific Content.
Annalise hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So let's start off.
Last year, lower Street boughtPacific Content and you're at
Pacific Content.
You were there at PacificContent when it was purchased.
What's changed?
What's life been like now aspart of Lower Street, within the
Pacific Content bubble?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Well, in a lot of ways things are similar.
I would say like my role ispretty similar across both
companies, so I sit sort ofbetween marketing and sales, I
put together proposals forclients, I write our newsletter,
I do a lot of thoughtleadership kind of content and
(01:00):
plan events for Lower Street.
So that's maybe somethingthat's new for me at Lower
Street, but still sort of withinthe same wheelhouse as what I
was doing at Pacific Content.
And I would say, like thedifference between the two
companies or like where we're atnow.
You know, pacific Content waspreviously owned by a very large
(01:20):
media conglomerate, so thatdefinitely impacted sort of day
to day business and now part ofa scrappy startup.
So there's a lot moreflexibility that comes with that
.
We are also a global team, sothere are people all over the
world across lots of differenttime zones, which is pretty cool
, and we all work remotely andso, yeah, those are the main
sort of differences.
(01:41):
I would say Lower Street also,like with the acquisition of
Pacific Content, has much moreof a broad offering, I would say
, than Pacific Content did.
Pacific Content was known for avery specific type of project,
whereas Lower Street, you know,we sort of run the gambit in
what we can offer to differentclients.
So those are, I would say, themain differences, but overall a
(02:05):
lot of similarities.
A lot of my colleagues fromPacific content came over to
Laura street as well, so a lotof familiar faces where I am too
.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Now I was going through LinkedIn and I saw you
writing about YouTube and, ofcourse, youtube is now the
flavor of the month.
Everyone's talking about itallegedly being the place that
podcasting should be, andeveryone's going to it, but, of
course, the big thing in 25 isabout video, video, video, video
video.
That's all you seem to hearabout Now.
(02:35):
You wrote a report recentlywhich was all about YouTube and
video content, so I thought I'dpick your brains.
Really.
What are your initial thoughts?
Where is youtube in the podcastlandscape and where is video,
more importantly, within thatpodcast landscape as well?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
so I think those are sort of two different questions.
I think that, in a lot of ways,we conflate video with youtube,
and I don't necessarily thinkthat those are the same thing,
but, to start to level set, alot of the conversation around
YouTube started when it becameclear that YouTube was now the
number one platform that peopleare using to consume podcasts.
So YouTube beat out Spotify andApple podcasts for the first
(03:12):
time, and that was a huge deal.
It is a huge deal.
We should definitely bethinking about that data.
The reality, though, is thatit's YouTube, and then there's
every other podcast platformthat exists out there, and, for
the most part, YouTube is theonly platform that people are
using to watch video.
Now, I know that there'sexceptions there.
I know that Spotify is pivotingtowards video.
I know that Apple has videocapabilities.
(03:33):
I know that lots of podcasts,like Podcast 2.0, there's lots
of video watching capabilities.
Most people don't even knowthat they can watch video
podcasts across these otherplatforms, particularly Apple,
which has always had videopodcasts across these other
platforms, particularly Apple,which has always had video
podcasts, and so, for themajority of the video podcast
consumption, that's happening onYouTube.
And then the other thing I willsay is like YouTube still only
(03:55):
makes up about 30% of thepodcast consumption that we see.
So yes, it's more than Spotify,it's more than Apple Still
about a third of the consumption.
So if we sort of take all ofthose things together then we
can say like video consumptionprimarily happening on YouTube,
(04:15):
that's really still only about athird of the consumption that's
happening.
I also would say that out of allof the consumption that's
happening on YouTube, not all ofthat is video, actually video
watching.
A lot of that is consumption ofpodcasts that were published on
YouTube but don't have a videocomponent.
So this is like, you know,podcasts that are published with
just a static image, orpodcasts that are published on
(04:38):
YouTube music without a videocomponent.
So that's a big part of that aswell.
And then there's also you knowthe consumption that happens
where there is a video elementof the podcast but people aren't
actually watching that.
They're minimizing theirscreens.
I think we know now a hugeamount of YouTube consumption is
happening on people'stelevisions, so they're putting
it on and then they're doingother things in the background.
(04:59):
This is a huge trend that wesee with YouTube now and
YouTube's really leaning intothat.
You know there was a recentreport that they're beating out
traditional television forconsumption on televisions, and
that's.
You know that consumption makesa lot of sense.
It's something to put on in thebackground.
Does that mean that people arewatching those entire videos,
those entire you know one, two,three hour long episodes?
(05:21):
They're not right, it'ssomething that's on in the
background.
So I think all of those thingsare important for us to think
about when we think about ourvideo strategy.
When it comes to podcasts, Ithink you know there's a lot of
nuance in this conversation thatI think we're missing.
When we just look at this dataof you know, YouTube is winning
podcasts and we all need topivot to video Like maybe maybe
(05:44):
video makes the most sense foryour podcast project, Maybe it
doesn't make the most sense foryour podcast project.
Video comes with a lot ofadditional costs the majority of
the time, and to do it rightespecially, um, there's a lot of
costs involved and there's alsoa lot of sacrifices involved in
making a video podcast, becauseit means that you're
sacrificing the ability to dothings that you can do with
audio only projects.
So that's sort of the basics ofmy thoughts on youtube yeah, no
(06:09):
, I, I I can see the trend.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Um, I think what we're seeing is the high-end
podcasts that have significantbudget or significant teams that
can afford to have both anaudio and video strategy are
going.
Okay, we'll put our videostrategy onto YouTube, but we
will also have an audio strategythat goes onto other platforms.
(06:33):
We're also seeing a lot of thevideo, as you said, in the
pocket, but you have to be asubscriber, right?
If you try and put a video inyour pocket, you you'll get ad
interruptions.
You will get the YouTube appnot liking it and glitching in
your pocket.
It won't minimize.
So they're driving you down apaid subscription model in order
to have that capability.
(06:54):
So one of the things that I'venoticed recently, though, with
the high-end podcasts is thatthey are moving to live as a
core strategy.
So, if you look at podcastslike the news agent or the rest
is politics, or even zateo or umrest is politics, usa, some of
(07:16):
the politics podcast I'vewatched, so you know now what I
listen to or watch, right, butthey've gone live.
Why do you think they are alsomoving to live?
I get the lean back model of tv.
My teenage or early 20sdaughters will have a video on
not watching it, but will listenand then lean into watch
(07:38):
something if it grabs theirattention.
So I can see how that all works.
But live seems to be anothertrend that's coming.
So we've gone strangely fromApple Spotify to YouTube.
We've then gone strangely fromaudio to video and it feels like
we're now going video, livevideo.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I see what you're saying and I do see that trend
as well.
I don't know.
I think that there's alwaysbeen a bit of a live element in
podcasting.
It's just that we had a lotmore live in-person events back
in the day Before COVID.
That was a huge business linefor a lot of podcasts.
Right Like my Favorite, murderwould have massive tours that
they would do of live shows.
(08:20):
Criminal still does likemassive live show tours.
They feel like they'reconstantly on tour.
So I think that's kind ofalways been there as a bit of an
element.
I think the difference is nowit's just moved to being more of
a digital experience ratherthan an in-person live
experience.
I think probably part of thiscomes from a desire, I think
(08:42):
from the audience, to interactmore with podcasters.
You have this like very deepparasocial relationship that
builds between a listener and apodcaster.
You know we know that likepodcasting is very it's cliche
to say now, but it's a veryintimate medium.
You're listening to them byyourself, usually with
headphones on, although maybethat's changing now with the
rise of YouTube and peopleputting it on in the background
(09:03):
on their TVs on, although maybethat's changing now with the
rise of YouTube and peopleputting it on in the background
on their TVs.
But for the most part, you know, that's what's sort of been.
A strength of the medium issort of this relationship that
builds between the listener andthe podcaster.
And I think, you know, mostpodcast platforms do not really
support interactivity in the waythat a lot of other platforms,
a lot of other digital mediadoes.
Right Like, social media reallyis built on that interactivity
(09:27):
that's what it's for is for usto have that, you know,
connection to somebody and beingable to go back and forth with
them.
And YouTube also reallyprioritizes interactivity
between the creator and theaudience.
And I would say that, you know,a live event affords that type
of interactivity in a way thatwe don't really get in other
(09:49):
spaces in podcasting.
So maybe that's where part ofthis is coming from and also
maybe that's part of the push onYouTube.
Right Like, youtube has acomment section that is usually
very robust and oftentimescreators are in that comment
section responding to people.
It's more of a conversationcompared to a lot of other
(10:09):
podcast platforms.
I know that there are lots ofother podcast platforms that do
have the ability to allow peopleto leave comments or to leave
reviews, but that type ofinteractivity is not something
that's been prioritized oremphasized across other podcast
platforms, so maybe that's partof it.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I think there are three elements.
Live gives you that feeling ofbeing in the room with the
people, even if you're not.
I think YouTubers, you said,have comments, but I think the
chat live chat actually takes itone stage further, and I think
super chats give you thatmonetization that you can gain
from those live events.
Overall, though, if you weretalking to a client for Pacific
(10:50):
Content or Lower Street, whatwould you be saying, right?
Would you be saying yes, 100%,you have to have a YouTube
strategy.
You cannot miss out becauseit's now the dominant platform.
Or would you say horses, for,for courses, you're a crime
thriller, don't really need tosee the video, because that's
then tv, because that becomes amuch bigger thing.
So is it just a talking headsplatform for podcasters, right?
(11:14):
What's your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I would say first of all, yes, always.
Youtube.
Having a youtube strategy isalways part of the conversation,
regardless doesn't matter whothe client is or what the type
of project is.
There needs to be some strategyaround YouTube.
So that could be that we just,you know, are publishing on
YouTube music.
That could be that we have astatic image and we're
publishing episodes there.
(11:37):
Sometimes the YouTube strategylike, as you said, if it's a
true crime show, we're notproducing full-length video
episodes necessarily.
And so, yeah, like that's oftenthe case, I would say probably
the majority of the time, we'repushing people towards that as a
strategy.
But YouTube needs to be part ofthe story, no matter what.
I think you would be foolish tomiss out on.
You know a third of listenerspotentially discovering your
(12:00):
show that way, and we know likeYouTube is much more robust for
discoverability.
So I think it would be badadvice to say to ignore YouTube
altogether.
That being said, as you say,like some podcast formats don't
lend themselves to full lengthvideo episodes.
Sometimes it makes sense tomake video clips instead of full
(12:22):
length video episodes.
You know you can still recordvideo for all of your interviews
.
You just maybe aren't editingit together as a full-length
episode.
Maybe you're just releasing,you know, a portion of an
interview or like a segment ofthe episode or just a clip
that's being used on TikTok andon YouTube Shorts.
That's also a legitimate andreally good strategy.
For a lot of our clients itdoes really depend.
(12:45):
I would say a big factor indeciding how we approach this
would be who's your targetaudience and what is their
consumption habits.
For example, when it comes toLower Street, we produce a lot
of B2B content.
A lot of the time, that contentis targeting CEOs and
executives.
We know that CEOs andexecutives are listening and
(13:07):
they're consuming podcasts farless on YouTube than the average
population.
They're very busy.
They're multitasking.
They're listening to podcastswhile they're exercising or
while they're traveling or whilethey're in the car or on plane
rides.
They don't have time to sitdown and watch full length video
episodes on plane rides.
They don't have time to sitdown and watch full length video
episodes.
So does it make sense to producethese like pretty costly full
(13:27):
length video episodes when yourtarget audience isn't going to
be sitting down and watchingthem?
It doesn't really make sense.
That's not that that strategymaybe isn't the best strategy
here and actually we should beproducing shows that are maybe a
little bit more tightly edited,because we know that these
people don't have a lot of timeand we want to respect their
time, and that also doesn't lenditself to full-length video
episodes.
So in that case I would say wewould steer them away from
(13:50):
producing full-length videoepisodes.
On the other hand, if I wasworking with a client who was
making a B2C podcast and theirtarget audience was 18 to
25-year-old men, I woulddefinitely be thinking about
producing a full-length videopodcast, you know, a more chat
style show, because that's kindof content that they're familiar
(14:11):
with.
That's what they recognize as apodcast.
You know there's going to bebetter opportunities for cross
promotion with other podcastswith a show like that.
So these are all things that wewould think about and
discussions we would have in theearly days to sort of decide on
the strategy there.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I fully agree with your thought process around
shorts, reels, tiktoks, becausethere was a great report out
recently about, fundamentally,the follow model is maybe not
the model that we should belooking at now, because early
discovery from algorithmsYouTube's algorithm and also
(14:49):
TikTok's algorithm means thatnew content is being delivered
to people even if you're not afollower, and you're getting
great discovery in thatmechanism.
Now, look, let's get offYouTube.
Enough YouTube, let's move onto the other beast, spotify.
Now they recently came outsaying they want to do video.
We all know that and Daniel Xhas been very bullish on it.
The numbers have started to comeout around how they're going to
(15:11):
monetize video content.
So we know that if you uploadvideo to your audio RSS account,
they will replace the audioepisode with the video episode
and then you can't go back tothe audio.
They both YouTube and Spotifyask you to remove dynamic ad
insertions, so we know thatthat's no longer so.
(15:34):
We've seen now that some peopleare coming out and I know you
reshared one of the posts aswell I think that's how I
discovered it, actually whichwas a person telling their
client they've lost a thousanddollars because they didn't get
anything from the Spotify adnetwork, but they were getting
money from the video side, so isit just early days or is it
(15:56):
something that we should beaware of that?
Actually, the amount of moneythat you may gain from a video
strategy on Spotify is alwaysgoing to be lower than their
audio driven strategy.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, I don't know that it's always going to be
lower.
I think it is fair to say thatit is early days.
You know, like to be fair toSpotify it is, it is early days.
It will take time foradvertisers to jump in and for
them to be able to fill all ofthe inventory that they have
available to them.
You know advertising you couldopt into advertising through
(16:33):
anchor and there was a goodperiod of time where their
inventory was going empty or itwas like mostly being filled
with ads for anchor um internalads from Spotify.
So you know it takes time foradvertisers to jump on board and
for them to sell through all ofthat inventory and I think that
that's fair.
I guess my bigger concern withSpotify's strategy this is going
(16:54):
to be pretty critical ofSpotify, but it kind of goes
twofold.
So I would say that I haveconcerns about the fact that
this pivot to video is beingtied to Spotify's recent
positive earnings reports thathave come out.
I think that that's a hugemistake to correlate the two and
(17:16):
to conflate the two.
I don't see them as beingrelated.
Spotify had huge cuts and theylet go of a lot of people and
they made really big, drasticdecisions on their spending and
that, I think, has impactedtheir overall bottom line
drastically.
But because it's happened sortof at the same time as this
pivot to video, the two are sortof being connected and that's
the narrative.
(17:37):
We're being told that, likethis is the right strategy for
Spotify to lean into video.
I'm not seeing that.
I'm just not.
I'm not seeing that in people'sconsumption day to day.
I don't know anyone whoconsumes video on Spotify, so I
struggle with that beingcorrelated.
The second thing that I wouldsay about Spotify that I have
concerns around is I thinkSpotify is really, rather than
(18:01):
listening to creators andhearing what the concerns are
for creators and then addressingthose needs, they're constantly
chasing somebody else andcopying other people's models.
You know, like we saw this withtheir pivot to short form video
.
They wanted to start doingshort form video to compete with
TikTok.
That has been pretty much aflop.
(18:22):
I think it's fair to say Ahundred percent yeah.
Yeah, people have not consumedthat kind of content within
Spotify.
You know we've seen this with,I mean you could argue, even
podcasting in general.
Spotify, like getting into thepodcasting game in general, was
trying to copy somebody else'smodel and they have, overall,
(18:42):
not really proven to be able topull it off because they're not,
they're not really looking tofix a problem that already
exists, they're just copyingsomebody else's model.
I think that there'sopportunity to fix problems that
exist within podcasting onpodcast platforms.
I think if we you know where Isee Spotify having a lot of
(19:03):
opportunity would be amarketplace and being able to
sell ads for creators, forsmaller creators, so smaller
creators can opt in and thenthey fill their inventory with
ads automatically.
You know Spotify could reallytake the reins and do that for
on the audio ad side.
So the Spotify podcast adnetwork, like I see there's a
huge amount of potential therebecause that's gap, that's in
(19:24):
the industry that we have.
You know that's an area thatthere's not a lot of other
opportunities for that forcreators.
But I mean, on the video side,it's like you're so far behind
where YouTube is, like why eventry to become the new YouTube?
I don't know, it just seemslike there are other problems
(19:45):
and gaps in the industry thatthey could be filling.
For creators, and it would bemuch faster to be able to
accelerate their growth if theywere to fill those gaps rather
than just chasing the you knowwhat's popular now.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things in there I
agree with and a couple Iprobably disagree with.
So the first thing I think isthat Spotify had to go and find
new revenue streams.
I think you're right Conflatingthe two.
Returning to profitability mayhave been through cuts, but I
think they also know that ifthey're going to beat the market
, they have to find new revenuestreams I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I I also would say their audiobooks have that.
That pivot has been prettysuccessful, I think, for them.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You know, I think a lot of people are listening to
audiobooks and, well, maybe notrevenue wise yeah, I don know if
the numbers to back that up,but, again, with the audiobook
strategy, I believe that thatwas a separate revenue stream
that they were bringing to theplay Totally.
That was different to the musicrevenue stream, and, again,
they were hoping that podcaststhe ad revenue stream would be
another revenue stream.
(20:47):
I think video is just anotherrevenue stream, and I think
video is just another revenuestream, and I think, like we
talked about YouTube, live,james and I believe that Spotify
will get into live in a big way, but I think live more with
music concerts being able to goand see the Bruno Mars concert
because it's sold out, but youcan watch it online, or guess
what you can watch?
(21:07):
You know, the weekend I can'tget to Canada, but I can watch
them from the UK, right, so Ithink that could be a big
marketplace.
One of the things I often say,though, is if you remove the
music element from Spotify,would it make a good podcast
platform?
Would it be a standalone, goodapp?
What do you think?
No, no, exactly.
I don't think it's a greatclient, right.
(21:29):
And that, I think, is theirproblem.
I think they haven't got a goodui.
I think they're stuck withtheir music ui that they've
tried to adapt to a podcast, uithat they're trying to adapt to
a video, ui.
Um, I think it's too expensivein not well, it's not too
expensive.
They've got enough money, butit's too risky for them to do a
complete ui change and I thinkthey've bolted it.
(21:50):
But I think the one thing theyhave to do is they have to try
and go after these new revenuestreams.
I think they have to go aftervideo.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I do agree with you.
I don't agree that it needs tobe video.
I agree that they need todiversify their revenue streams.
I think the chase to video isnot.
I think that's not how peopleconsume things on Spotify.
It's not how people think ofSpotify.
So I think that's not howpeople consume things on Spotify
.
It's how people think ofSpotify.
So I think it's too vast of apivot for it's not considering
(22:20):
user behavior and userconsumption.
I think that when you weretalking about the UI for
podcasts, it's funny because Ithink actually Spotify had a lot
of opportunities withpodcasting to make that into
something really great.
Like Spotify became such a hugeapp for music because they have
a lot of strengths that couldthen be applied to podcasting.
You know, for example,spotify's algorithms and
(22:41):
recommendation tools were far,far, far ahead of everybody else
, at least back in the day maybenot so much nowadays, but back
in the day and they were usingAI for recommendations like far
before everybody else.
They were like way advanced onthose things and that hasn't
translated into podcasting.
Like we don't see really greatrecommendations coming for
(23:03):
podcast listening on Spotify'sapp.
Actually, I think it's gonedown in quality.
I think it used to be evenbetter than it is now.
You used to get like prettygood recommendations on the
podcast homepage on Spotify andI think it used to be even
better than it is now.
You used to get like prettygood recommendations on the
podcast homepage on Spotify andI think it was human curated at
one time and now it's now it'snot.
I don't know, and I think itdiffers from country to country
too.
I think in the States it'sbetter than it is in Canada
probably, and probably betterthan it is in the UK.
(23:24):
But why hasn't there been anykind of effort put into
discoverability for podcasts onthe Spotify app?
Because that is something thatthey are known for and we're
we're known to be very, verygood at and it's a big problem
in podcasting.
Like, if you could solve thatproblem, you know, then you
could, you could really make acase for why people should be
(23:46):
using Spotify to listen topodcasts, but there's been no
effort put into that.
So I don't know.
I I do agree with you on thediversifying thing.
Like they did need to diversify.
You can't just stick to music.
I get that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I'm not sure that that video is the way to do that
necessarily I think the problemthey've got is and I've said it
on uh on news weekly with jameson several occasions they have
a pricey elasticity problem.
There is a point, a snap point,at which the price for their
subscription will becomedetrimental to renewal.
(24:19):
So if I said to you, are youhappy to pay 19.99, are you
happy to pay 25.99, 35.99, 50quid, right, there will be a
point which you go, I'm notreally that sure I want to pay
that anymore.
So I don't know where thatpoint is.
But because they're taking thevideo revenue that they give to
creators out of thatsubscription model.
If they are to give creators agreater revenue share, then they
(24:44):
have to increase that priceelasticity and their
subscription costs.
So I don't know what's going tohappen.
And in that sense, the one thingthat's missing from all the
detail and data that they giveus is how much do you pay?
Is it a per minute watchingpayment?
Is it a percentage completedpayment?
So if you watch a video, is it10, 50?
(25:07):
Do you have to watch 100 beforea payment is made?
We don't know.
Know, for example, I think it's30 seconds or more is
considered a music play, andthen that goes to their data mix
right, and that's what formspart of the payment to musicians
, but we don't know if that'strue with podcasting.
Yet we don't know Becausethey're not paying for the
podcast, which would be lovely,but they're paying for the video
(25:30):
element of the podcast, whichwould be lovely, but they're
paying for the video element ofthe podcast.
So it's very weird.
And I think also with YouTube,you know, they came out with
this one billion plays and Jamesand I looked at the numbers and
John McDermott, a friend of theshow, also looked at the
numbers and there was a numberof.
We're not quite sure.
That's quite good because it's.
You know how long is a playbefore it gets registered?
Is it a logged in, logged outplay?
(25:57):
So there's lots of things.
Okay, look, annalise, giventhat you're not a betting lady,
I'm assuming, but if you were abetting lady, would you say that
spotify or youtube, by the endof 2025 is going to be the
biggest player?
Who's going to win?
I think it'll be youtube and isthat your podcast client of
choice yourself?
That wouldn't be my choice.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
No, Well, personally I use Pocket Casts.
I like supporting a smallerpodcast player.
I have used Spotify in the past, particularly when they had
gated podcasts.
I did listen to a lot of Gimletshows on Spotify back in the
day.
That was also when I paid forSpotify premium, so I was in
there a lot more.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I don't pay for Spotify premium anymore so I
don't use spotify basically atall.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean, you're not in your parents account like every
other, every other young personmy parents don't even pay for
spotify, they use like googlemusic or so I don't know right
it doesn't exist anymore,something like that.
Um no, I use Tidal now, actually, which I chose them because
they have a higher payout tocreators, so that's why I
switched to Tidal and it's thesame price also, I would say,
(27:02):
and it has the same music, and Ididn't like the UI for
listening to podcasts on Spotifyanyways, so I didn't feel bad
about leaving that behind.
I did use Apple Podcasts for along time as well and I liked
Apple podcasts.
I do like Apple podcasts.
I like the homepage of Applepodcasts and that there's
editorial recommendations onApple and I actually find those
to be much more they're humanedited.
(27:24):
I know Pocket Cast is similarly, there's a human doing the
editorial decisions, but it'sApple, is country specific, so I
find I get a lot morerecommendations that are more
specific to me in Apple, which Ilike.
So I use Apple Podcasts on mydesktop and I check it pretty
regularly for new shows andthat's how I discover a new
(27:45):
podcast a lot of the time.
But for day-to-day playing Iuse Pocket Casts, because I
found Apple was really glitchy.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Okay, nice.
Now look one of the otherthings that day-to-day playing,
I use pocket casts because Ifound apple was really glitchy.
Okay, nice.
Now look one of the otherthings that you've been sharing
and talking about is somethingcalled an attention diet.
Now, I think that came from afriend of pacific ex-pacific,
actually steven pratt, friend ofthe show.
What is an attention diet andwhy do we need one?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, this was Steve's idea and the basic
framework is he was recommendingthat we all think about our
attention diet, sort of like youthink about your, your food
diet, your daily, you know foodpyramid.
What are you?
What are you eating every day?
Are you getting enoughvegetables?
Are you getting enough grains?
Are you getting enough protein?
So basically, the idea is hewas recommending we think about
(28:32):
the health of our attention diet.
So do we have a healthyattention diet?
Are we spending our time onthings that are actually helping
us to grow or are we, you know,mindlessly scrolling for hours
on TikTok?
I am very guilty of that, so Ishould probably try to build a
healthier attention diet.
So that was sort of the conceptthat he had.
He was recommending, you know,we start tracking our
(28:52):
consumption of, and where we'regiving our attention to, and
think about how we can turn thatinto something that might be a
little bit more healthy for forus in terms of our consumption,
the idea that we sort of tookfrom that.
So my colleague Hannah, who ishead of audience development at
Lower Street, she saw thisarticle and really liked it and
then had the idea to think abouthow we can apply this to our
(29:14):
clients and their needs thatthey might have and think about
it in the framework of like,what is our listeners attention
diet?
So every time we go to launch anew project, we spend a good
amount of time thinking aboutthe listener profile of that
we're trying to target.
And that includes thinkingabout you know what are their
habits, what are their.
You know challenges that theymight have Thinking about.
(29:35):
You know what are their habits,what are their.
You know challenges that theymight have.
Obviously, some demographic,any demographic insights we
could pull, but a big piece ofthat puzzle that we need to
start thinking about even moreis what is their attention diet,
what are they spending theirtime with already?
And we do this a little bitalready.
We have done this in the past alittle bit already when we
think about what other podcastsare they listening to.
So we would do like sort of acompetitive analysis of you know
(29:56):
what other podcasts are maybetargeting this audience, what?
What are they spending theirtime listening to already?
And the goal there is to makesomething that is both unique
but also familiar, so somethingthat is going to be filling a
gap in in the market If you justgo to market with the same show
that's already out there, thenwhy would anybody pivot and
switch to listen to your show?
(30:17):
Right, it doesn't make sense.
Um, but you also want to makesomething that feels familiar
enough that they're going towant to click play.
It's kind of like when we weretalking about, you know, the
YouTube strategy.
If I'm making a show for 18year old men, I'm probably going
to make a video podcast,because I know that that's what
they recognize as a podcast andso that can help us to figure
(30:38):
out like a marketing strategyand develop a show altogether.
So, yeah, so we were alreadyusing that sort of mentality,
but then applying this idea ofan attention diet sort of
broadens it even further,because then we're thinking
about things like you know, arethey spending a lot of time
watching Netflix?
Is this a demographic that isstill reading Forbes every day?
(31:02):
Is this a group of people whospends a lot of time listening
to music and do they subscribeto a paid Spotify account?
All of those things are reallyhelpful for thinking about, not
just you know, what is the showthat we're going to build, but
also how can we get our podcastin front of this audience.
You know, would it be helpfulto have a feature in Forbes to
(31:23):
promote the podcast?
Um?
Is that going to get in frontof this audience?
Is it helpful to you know,build a show that is easy to put
on in the background on YouTube, on your TV?
Um, because we know that thisaudience has their TV on.
You know they there may be,like I know we used to.
We always say like two screens,but I know now we're talking
about like three screenaudiences.
(31:44):
Maybe they're like a threescreen zoomer, and we want to
have something that they can puton in the background on their
TV.
Those are, all you know,important things to consider
when we're developing a show andfiguring out how to market it.
So, yeah, so that's how we'veapplied this idea of this
attention diet to our ourpodcast process with our clients
.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Nice, nice Now.
You were in New York recently.
You were on Airfest Um.
What were your takeaways?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Um, so I think probably my big you know it's
funny cause, like, after theseconferences, people like to sort
of get a gauge for, like, arethings feeling positive or are
things feeling negative in theindustry?
I would say that for once, Idon't think I walked away
feeling either way about it.
(32:31):
If I'm totally honest, I gotthe impression that in New York
City right now, peoplepodcasting is not their priority
.
People have a lot of otherthings on their mind and are
maybe a little checked out ofpodcasting right now.
So that's the vibe in Americathat I was picking up on anyway
In terms of conversations that Iwas having around podcasting,
(32:53):
though I would say that, like Ithink that amongst people who
work in the industry, there is abit of a frustration with this
constant push towards video.
That's not because people arenot thinking about video or
they're not willing to pivot tovideo or they're not willing to
explore video or anything likethat.
There's a frustration thatpodcasting is becoming
synonymous with a video talkshow, because there is so many
(33:19):
other formats that a podcastcould take and it could be so
much more creative and so muchmore interesting than that, and
I think people are feeling sortof a lack of creativity in the
industry right now and that'svery frustrating.
The other conversation that Iwas having a lot was around
video clips and the value ofvideo clips, and I would say
like I think that there's sortof an understanding amongst most
(33:41):
of the people that I spoke tothat video clips are worth it.
Because of what you said aboutyou know, discoverability and
the algorithm putting them infront of people who have never,
who don't follow you, who havenever been connected to you at
all, who don't follow you or whonever been connected to you at
all.
I think that there's a lot ofvalue there and also, a lot of
times, video clips don'tnecessarily lead to new
(34:02):
downloads, but they serve sortof another purpose and that
people can consume clips withoutever going to listen to full
length episodes of the podcastand that that's still valuable
and that's still okay.
Think, like, when I look at myown consumption, that's
definitely the case, that that'sstill valuable and that's still
okay.
I think like I, when I look atmy own consumption, that's
definitely the case, likethere's a lot of podcasts where
I love seeing their clips showup on my for you page.
(34:24):
I will never go listen to thefull length episode of that
podcast.
It's just not the type ofpodcast that I would typically
consume and I don't want tolisten to like a whole two,
three hour long episode of it.
But I really love the clips andit introduced me to new
creators and I still you know,I'm introduced to this world of
the podcast Um, and I wouldfollow them on social media.
(34:45):
But like I'm not interested inlistening to the full length
episodes, I think there's a lotof value there still, and so if
we only measure it in terms oflike as a, as a discoverability
tool or as a marketing tool, Idon't know that clips have a
whole lot of value in terms ofthat.
I don't think that theynecessarily generate a lot of
downloads, but I still do thinkthat they do hold a lot of value
(35:06):
for creators and for brands andfor podcasters.
So that was another sort oftakeaway, I guess, from from
that time.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I think shorts do help with brand awareness
because I think it's throughosmosis over time.
I think if you're repetition,repetition, repetition, you
eventually get oh, maybe I'llclick and listen.
I don't think it's an immediatedownload return.
I also think that you know inthe world that we are.
I think what you've saidthrough the whole of this
(35:35):
interview, which has been quiteinteresting, is discoverability
is being a big issue and itstill always is.
I mean, james thinks I believethat there isn't a big
discoverability issue.
I think there is.
That's where we differ and Ithink we're learning that shorts
are a great way for a newcustomer discoverability,
(35:55):
introduction to somethingthrough an algorithm.
But I think we're seeingyoutube's algorithm as another
form of good discoverability andwhether whether we can build
community from the shortsleading to long form podcasts,
leading to community, sorepeatable customers.
That's an interesting part andI think we're seeing a bigger
(36:18):
push towards people talk aboutcommunity.
We talk about fandoms, we talkabout monetization of fandoms
and how that can happen now.
So I think that's where I thinkwe are in 25.
And I think I find Spotify maybe in the squeezed middle.
I think they could be thesqueezed middle, which is
they're not YouTube and they'renot really video, but they're
(36:39):
not really shorts.
As we said, they didn't reallyhave a TikTok strategy that
worked.
I think, as you said, purpose ofSpotify for most users is music
, not podcasting.
For some reason, there isn't.
I think there was supposed tobe an easy transition between if
you talk about the attentiondiet I'm listening to music, I'm
now going to switch over to mypodcast.
I'm now going to go back to myaudio book.
(37:01):
Now I'm going to go and watch alive event, if they did that.
Now I'm going to do somethingelse and staying within the
garden wall of Spotify.
But I don't feel that that'shappening.
I do feel that Apple is missingin action.
I just feel that they're justlost.
I have no idea what Apple isdoing.
Hello Apple, 164,000 of you.
I don't know what you're alldoing, but someone wake up the
(37:22):
donut because no one's at home.
I really don't know whatApple's doing and they hate me
for saying that, but generally Ijust believe they're missing
every opportunity and I don'tknow what they're doing.
But okay, look the last part Iwanted to cover.
(37:42):
It's international women inpodcasting, right, and what does
that mean?
What does that mean for you asa woman.
What does that mean for us asan industry?
Where do men fit within thatconversation?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
So let me go back to one of the points that you made.
That was around discoverability, that you said that you think
that there is a problem andJames said that there isn't, and
I think I agree with you that Ido think discoverability is a
problem.
I think it's always been aproblem in podcasting and we
haven't solved that problem yet,but I think that it used to be
the case that discoverabilitywas the issue and that if people
(38:11):
took a little extra time to dig, you could find really, really
amazing, great content.
I'm not saying that that's nottrue today.
I know that there's a lot ofamazing podcasts being made, but
I think that we are slippinginto a space where there is also
a content problem.
The quality of the content thatI'm seeing come out today it's
not the same as it was fiveyears ago.
It's just not.
We've seen like huge budgetcuts.
(38:35):
We've seen pivots towardsquantity over quality, really
because there's an understandingthat if I can just throw a
bunch of ad markers into thispodcast and pump out content
every other day, that I'm goingto make more money than I would
if I were to invest in qualitycontent that got a lot more
downloads over a much fewerepisodes and I think that, like
(38:56):
when I I talk to, when I havefriends, that friends reach out
all the time and are like whatare you listening to?
What should I listen to?
I don't have recommendationslike I used to have for them.
So I think that there's a realrisk in that and I bring this up
now because I think with thathas sort of come there's there's
a huge diversity problem inpodcasting.
That it's always been thereagain, but it is getting much
(39:19):
worse.
And being in New York, I thinkthat was really highlighted for
me.
I think there are definitely onthe gender side of things.
Podcasting has always been muchmore male dominated, you know
there was it sort of started aslike a tech product and it was
definitely gated and verydifficult to get into if you
(39:42):
were a woman.
Back, even when I startedgetting into podcasting about 10
years ago, it was very hard tofind anybody who would help me
to learn in the space as a woman.
There wasn't a lot of welcomespaces for me.
There was a lot of jargon thatwas being thrown around without
any sort of, you know, attemptto sort of let me into that
(40:03):
space, and it took a lot ofpersistence to really push
through it, to even figure outhow to set up an RSS feed,
frankly, which is crazy backthen.
So you know, I think there'salways been that sort of as a
through line in podcasting andthat's something we should be
working towards fixing for sure.
I think we've come a long way.
(40:23):
I think podcasting has gotten alot more accessible for women.
But if we zoom out beyond justour industry and see how people
perceive us, they perceivepodcasting as being a space for
for white dudes sitting around amicrophone right, that's what
podcasting is to a lot of people.
That's, that's problematic.
And I would say, like, beyondwomen, like there is a huge lack
(40:44):
of people of color who are onmicrophones right now and
podcasting and it's.
It's alarming to me, like at OnAir Fest, I really felt that
I'm not.
This isn't a dig.
At On Air Fest, it's just'sjust.
You know, looking around theroom, um, it's gotten worse,
we're going in the wrongdirection.
I would say, um, and that isalarming.
And I think again, I think thatcomes with the lack of budgets,
(41:07):
um, huge budget cuts,unfortunately.
You end up with women andpeople of color.
Their shows get cut from thosebudgets.
So, yeah, I think that's partof the problem.
I also I would say, like, asI'm saying this, I think that
there's a little bit of amisconception too, that you know
, when you have the people incharge be primarily white men
(41:28):
who are making these decisions,they view podcasts that are
hosted by women and are aboutwomen's issues as being niche or
like not scalable, and that'swhy they get cut early on or
they never get made in the firstplace, and that's just not the
case at all.
So, yeah, I think there's alsoprobably a little bit of that
(41:49):
happening.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I think budgets has a role to play.
I think the market opportunity,as you said, for the female-led
podcasts or people of colorpodcasts.
But there are more women thanmen in the world.
That that is.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
That is a known fact also, women make all of the
purchasing decisions for theirfamilies, but women are the
primary consumers.
So if we're talking about likepotential for revenue, I mean,
for god's sakes, how many brandsare targeting women primarily,
especially millennial women, uh,who are taking care of their
children and their parents atthis stage?
They're the sandwich generationand they're making all of the
(42:26):
purchasing decisions for notjust themselves, but for their
children and for their parents.
So when you talk about who ismost monetizable, it's women as
consumers.
So it's a huge missedopportunity from a revenue
perspective.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And also podcasts are wonderful for multitasking,
right.
So the audio podcast capabilitylook, I'm doing the shopping,
I'm at the gym, I'm picking upthe kids, I'm whatever they may
be and I don't mean to bestereotypical on my way to work
as well, right?
So let's not just say it'sthose roles, but those are
opportunity times where audio inthe ear works very well, where
(43:03):
video does not work very wellbecause you haven't got the time
to sit and watch.
I think the other thing, thoughand again I think it's a gender
thing that I've observed, Imean in my time, you know, as a
young boy, a boy will put hishand up in class when a girl
won't.
A young boy will climb thattree.
(43:23):
When a girl won't, or is notwon't, is told not to even right
, let alone won't.
So my daughter will tell mewell, you know, I wanted to
climb the tree, but I was toldnot to climb the tree because
I'm a girl, and so those thingshappen.
So I wonder whether sittingbehind a mic is that typical
male bravado.
Yeah, I'll just do it.
(43:43):
I don't know if I'm good or bad, I don't really care, I have no
issue, whereas the femalepodcaster may think more
carefully about that I do know.
For example, men will go forjobs when they're underqualified
and qualify into the job,whereas women will wait till
they're overqualified for a jobbefore they take it as an
example.
So I don't know if thosestereotypes play into podcasting
(44:06):
.
I think video plays worse intoit because, again, the
expectation on the female is tobe made up to have, you know,
her makeup, her hair andeverything else done.
I could rock up half beardedand nobody would probably care,
right?
So, although I'd like to pointout to those people who can't
see, I am fully clean shaventoday, just in case.
(44:28):
But I think those, those arethe things.
And then again, you know it'sdifficult, but does
International Women's Day, goingback to the question, does that
help raise the bar?
Do you find that you're gettingmore female voices now because
of the awareness?
Because it's been going for afew years now, it's not just
(44:49):
this year.
So do you think, from theconversations you might have had
with some of your friends, thatit's been a positive thing?
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Big question I think all of your points I totally
agree with.
I don't know, I mean, I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
Big question I think all ofyour points are I totally agree
with.
I don't know, I mean, I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
No, no, it's not a bad thing.
Look, raising the awareness isnot a bad thing.
But my, my question is look, wecan talk about black lives
matter, and I think black livesmatter doesn't make any
difference, Right?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I just don't.
I think, at the end of the day,you can have DEI, black Lives
Matter and many otherinitiatives and I don't.
I don't know that it makes ahuge difference, but at the same
time, it is one time a yearwhere you do have to like.
For example, I was puttingtogether a playlist of podcasts
that we one of the blog posts Iwrote recently was like podcasts
that we want to recommend toour clients that they listen to.
We want to recommend to ourclients that they listen to.
In putting together that list,because of some of these
initiatives like DEI and likeyou know, because we have these
(46:05):
conversations about, you know,why don't we have enough women
in power, why don't we haveenough people of color in
positions of power.
Because of that I'm I'm hyperaware of like.
I don't want to put together alist of a bunch of white dudes
talking.
I'd like a list that has alittle bit more diversity, that
represents and also thatrepresents more than just my
listening right Like thatrepresents podcasts that are
(46:26):
targeted towards other people aswell and might not be made for
me specifically, but in makingthat list, it was really hard to
find podcasts that are made bynon-white people Harder than I
would say it ever has been.
My listening has gotten likefar less diverse than it used to
be.
Um, and and I think having thatawareness is like kind of the
(46:48):
first step to fixing the problemlike I don't know how, unless
you're aware of that and you'rethinking about those things, are
you making efforts to sort offix it?
Because, like, as you said,because so often it is the boys
that are the first to jump inand the first to sort of like
volunteer to be the hosts, andit might take a little extra
(47:10):
work to find a woman who is, hasthe confidence to step up to
the mic and wants to do that andwants to take on that role.
And it might take a little.
You know, maybe you have totake a chance on somebody who
has a little less experience, ormaybe you have to, you know, do
a little extra training to makethat happen.
And if you don't, if youweren't aware of these things,
if you weren't like seeking itout actively, then how do you
(47:32):
fix it?
You know, like I just feel likewe'll just fall back into the
same cycles over and over again.
So I know what you mean and Idon't totally disagree with you.
Like I, you know InternationalWomen's Day kind of comes around
every year and like I agreethat I don't see it making a
huge difference.
Like a lot of it is sort oflike silly corporate bullshit.
(47:54):
Frankly, that's like notactually moving the needle.
But at the same time, if itdoes, kind of if trying to put
together your list forInternational Women's Day of
inspiring women that you'regoing to post on LinkedIn just
to get some likes and show thatyou're, you know, holier than
thou because you care aboutwomen.
If, in putting together thatlist, you realize that it's
really hard to find women tohighlight because there aren't
(48:17):
enough in these positions or youdon't have enough in your
company, maybe that's a wake upcall that you need to then
actively try to fix that, youknow.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, Maybe it's an awareness day Just to bring that
awareness to light to theconversation.
Annalise, I think we could talklots more, but I think the time
will go on and James will beediting this very heavily.
Anyway, Look, thank you so much.
Thank you for your insightsinto the thoughts on YouTube,
Spotify, short form brandedcontent, lots that we covered,
(48:50):
so thank you very much.
Now are you going to be atChicago for podcast movement?
Are you going to be in Londonfor the London podcast show?
Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
So I would love to be at both of those, those, but
actually I am heading off onmaternity leave as a
congratulations.
So thank you very much.
So, yeah, I will be on a bit ofa break from about a year, but
I will be back in full swingagain 2026.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
So yeah, well, look congratulations and look when
you come back.
I look forward to meeting upwith you.
Thanks a lot.
The Pod News Weekly Review with Buzzsprout.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We joined today by Annalise Nielsen.
Now she is Head of PodcastStrategy and Development at
Pacific Content.
Annalise hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So let's start off.
Last year, lower Street boughtPacific Content and you're at
Pacific Content.
You were there at PacificContent when it was purchased.
What's changed?
What's life been like now aspart of Lower Street, within the
Pacific Content bubble?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Well, in a lot of ways things are similar.
I would say like my role ispretty similar across both
companies, so I sit sort ofbetween marketing and sales, I
put together proposals forclients, I write our newsletter,
I do a lot of thoughtleadership kind of content and
(01:00):
plan events for Lower Street.
So that's maybe somethingthat's new for me at Lower
Street, but still sort of withinthe same wheelhouse as what I
was doing at Pacific Content.
And I would say, like thedifference between the two
companies or like where we're atnow.
You know, pacific Content waspreviously owned by a very large
(01:20):
media conglomerate, so thatdefinitely impacted sort of day
to day business and now part ofa scrappy startup.
So there's a lot moreflexibility that comes with that
.
We are also a global team, sothere are people all over the
world across lots of differenttime zones, which is pretty cool
, and we all work remotely andso, yeah, those are the main
sort of differences.
(01:41):
I would say Lower Street also,like with the acquisition of
Pacific Content, has much moreof a broad offering, I would say
, than Pacific Content did.
Pacific Content was known for avery specific type of project,
whereas Lower Street, you know,we sort of run the gambit in
what we can offer to differentclients.
So those are, I would say, themain differences, but overall a
(02:05):
lot of similarities.
A lot of my colleagues fromPacific content came over to
Laura street as well, so a lotof familiar faces where I am too
.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Now I was going through LinkedIn and I saw you
writing about YouTube and, ofcourse, youtube is now the
flavor of the month.
Everyone's talking about itallegedly being the place that
podcasting should be, andeveryone's going to it, but, of
course, the big thing in 25 isabout video, video, video, video
video.
That's all you seem to hearabout Now.
(02:35):
You wrote a report recentlywhich was all about YouTube and
video content, so I thought I'dpick your brains.
Really.
What are your initial thoughts?
Where is youtube in the podcastlandscape and where is video,
more importantly, within thatpodcast landscape as well?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
so I think those are sort of two different questions.
I think that, in a lot of ways,we conflate video with youtube,
and I don't necessarily thinkthat those are the same thing,
but, to start to level set, alot of the conversation around
YouTube started when it becameclear that YouTube was now the
number one platform that peopleare using to consume podcasts.
So YouTube beat out Spotify andApple podcasts for the first
(03:12):
time, and that was a huge deal.
It is a huge deal.
We should definitely bethinking about that data.
The reality, though, is thatit's YouTube, and then there's
every other podcast platformthat exists out there, and, for
the most part, YouTube is theonly platform that people are
using to watch video.
Now, I know that there'sexceptions there.
I know that Spotify is pivotingtowards video.
I know that Apple has videocapabilities.
(03:33):
I know that lots of podcasts,like Podcast 2.0, there's lots
of video watching capabilities.
Most people don't even knowthat they can watch video
podcasts across these otherplatforms, particularly Apple,
which has always had videopodcasts across these other
platforms, particularly Apple,which has always had video
podcasts, and so, for themajority of the video podcast
consumption, that's happening onYouTube.
And then the other thing I willsay is like YouTube still only
(03:55):
makes up about 30% of thepodcast consumption that we see.
So yes, it's more than Spotify,it's more than Apple Still
about a third of the consumption.
So if we sort of take all ofthose things together then we
can say like video consumptionprimarily happening on YouTube,
(04:15):
that's really still only about athird of the consumption that's
happening.
I also would say that out of allof the consumption that's
happening on YouTube, not all ofthat is video, actually video
watching.
A lot of that is consumption ofpodcasts that were published on
YouTube but don't have a videocomponent.
So this is like, you know,podcasts that are published with
just a static image, orpodcasts that are published on
(04:38):
YouTube music without a videocomponent.
So that's a big part of that aswell.
And then there's also you knowthe consumption that happens
where there is a video elementof the podcast but people aren't
actually watching that.
They're minimizing theirscreens.
I think we know now a hugeamount of YouTube consumption is
happening on people'stelevisions, so they're putting
it on and then they're doingother things in the background.
(04:59):
This is a huge trend that wesee with YouTube now and
YouTube's really leaning intothat.
You know there was a recentreport that they're beating out
traditional television forconsumption on televisions, and
that's.
You know that consumption makesa lot of sense.
It's something to put on in thebackground.
Does that mean that people arewatching those entire videos,
those entire you know one, two,three hour long episodes?
(05:21):
They're not right, it'ssomething that's on in the
background.
So I think all of those thingsare important for us to think
about when we think about ourvideo strategy.
When it comes to podcasts, Ithink you know there's a lot of
nuance in this conversation thatI think we're missing.
When we just look at this dataof you know, YouTube is winning
podcasts and we all need topivot to video Like maybe maybe
(05:44):
video makes the most sense foryour podcast project, Maybe it
doesn't make the most sense foryour podcast project.
Video comes with a lot ofadditional costs the majority of
the time, and to do it rightespecially, um, there's a lot of
costs involved and there's alsoa lot of sacrifices involved in
making a video podcast, becauseit means that you're
sacrificing the ability to dothings that you can do with
audio only projects.
So that's sort of the basics ofmy thoughts on youtube yeah, no
(06:09):
, I, I I can see the trend.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Um, I think what we're seeing is the high-end
podcasts that have significantbudget or significant teams that
can afford to have both anaudio and video strategy are
going.
Okay, we'll put our videostrategy onto YouTube, but we
will also have an audio strategythat goes onto other platforms.
(06:33):
We're also seeing a lot of thevideo, as you said, in the
pocket, but you have to be asubscriber, right?
If you try and put a video inyour pocket, you you'll get ad
interruptions.
You will get the YouTube appnot liking it and glitching in
your pocket.
It won't minimize.
So they're driving you down apaid subscription model in order
to have that capability.
(06:54):
So one of the things that I'venoticed recently, though, with
the high-end podcasts is thatthey are moving to live as a
core strategy.
So, if you look at podcastslike the news agent or the rest
is politics, or even zateo or umrest is politics, usa, some of
(07:16):
the politics podcast I'vewatched, so you know now what I
listen to or watch, right, butthey've gone live.
Why do you think they are alsomoving to live?
I get the lean back model of tv.
My teenage or early 20sdaughters will have a video on
not watching it, but will listenand then lean into watch
(07:38):
something if it grabs theirattention.
So I can see how that all works.
But live seems to be anothertrend that's coming.
So we've gone strangely fromApple Spotify to YouTube.
We've then gone strangely fromaudio to video and it feels like
we're now going video, livevideo.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I see what you're saying and I do see that trend
as well.
I don't know.
I think that there's alwaysbeen a bit of a live element in
podcasting.
It's just that we had a lotmore live in-person events back
in the day Before COVID.
That was a huge business linefor a lot of podcasts.
Right Like my Favorite, murderwould have massive tours that
they would do of live shows.
(08:20):
Criminal still does likemassive live show tours.
They feel like they'reconstantly on tour.
So I think that's kind ofalways been there as a bit of an
element.
I think the difference is nowit's just moved to being more of
a digital experience ratherthan an in-person live
experience.
I think probably part of thiscomes from a desire, I think
(08:42):
from the audience, to interactmore with podcasters.
You have this like very deepparasocial relationship that
builds between a listener and apodcaster.
You know we know that likepodcasting is very it's cliche
to say now, but it's a veryintimate medium.
You're listening to them byyourself, usually with
headphones on, although maybethat's changing now with the
rise of YouTube and peopleputting it on in the background
(09:03):
on their TVs on, although maybethat's changing now with the
rise of YouTube and peopleputting it on in the background
on their TVs.
But for the most part, you know, that's what's sort of been.
A strength of the medium issort of this relationship that
builds between the listener andthe podcaster.
And I think, you know, mostpodcast platforms do not really
support interactivity in the waythat a lot of other platforms,
a lot of other digital mediadoes.
Right Like, social media reallyis built on that interactivity
(09:27):
that's what it's for is for usto have that, you know,
connection to somebody and beingable to go back and forth with
them.
And YouTube also reallyprioritizes interactivity
between the creator and theaudience.
And I would say that, you know,a live event affords that type
of interactivity in a way thatwe don't really get in other
(09:49):
spaces in podcasting.
So maybe that's where part ofthis is coming from and also
maybe that's part of the push onYouTube.
Right Like, youtube has acomment section that is usually
very robust and oftentimescreators are in that comment
section responding to people.
It's more of a conversationcompared to a lot of other
(10:09):
podcast platforms.
I know that there are lots ofother podcast platforms that do
have the ability to allow peopleto leave comments or to leave
reviews, but that type ofinteractivity is not something
that's been prioritized oremphasized across other podcast
platforms, so maybe that's partof it.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I think there are three elements.
Live gives you that feeling ofbeing in the room with the
people, even if you're not.
I think YouTubers, you said,have comments, but I think the
chat live chat actually takes itone stage further, and I think
super chats give you thatmonetization that you can gain
from those live events.
Overall, though, if you weretalking to a client for Pacific
(10:50):
Content or Lower Street, whatwould you be saying, right?
Would you be saying yes, 100%,you have to have a YouTube
strategy.
You cannot miss out becauseit's now the dominant platform.
Or would you say horses, for,for courses, you're a crime
thriller, don't really need tosee the video, because that's
then tv, because that becomes amuch bigger thing.
So is it just a talking headsplatform for podcasters, right?
(11:14):
What's your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I would say first of all, yes, always.
Youtube.
Having a youtube strategy isalways part of the conversation,
regardless doesn't matter whothe client is or what the type
of project is.
There needs to be some strategyaround YouTube.
So that could be that we just,you know, are publishing on
YouTube music.
That could be that we have astatic image and we're
publishing episodes there.
(11:37):
Sometimes the YouTube strategylike, as you said, if it's a
true crime show, we're notproducing full-length video
episodes necessarily.
And so, yeah, like that's oftenthe case, I would say probably
the majority of the time, we'repushing people towards that as a
strategy.
But YouTube needs to be part ofthe story, no matter what.
I think you would be foolish tomiss out on.
You know a third of listenerspotentially discovering your
(12:00):
show that way, and we know likeYouTube is much more robust for
discoverability.
So I think it would be badadvice to say to ignore YouTube
altogether.
That being said, as you say,like some podcast formats don't
lend themselves to full lengthvideo episodes.
Sometimes it makes sense tomake video clips instead of full
(12:22):
length video episodes.
You know you can still recordvideo for all of your interviews
.
You just maybe aren't editingit together as a full-length
episode.
Maybe you're just releasing,you know, a portion of an
interview or like a segment ofthe episode or just a clip
that's being used on TikTok andon YouTube Shorts.
That's also a legitimate andreally good strategy.
For a lot of our clients itdoes really depend.
(12:45):
I would say a big factor indeciding how we approach this
would be who's your targetaudience and what is their
consumption habits.
For example, when it comes toLower Street, we produce a lot
of B2B content.
A lot of the time, that contentis targeting CEOs and
executives.
We know that CEOs andexecutives are listening and
(13:07):
they're consuming podcasts farless on YouTube than the average
population.
They're very busy.
They're multitasking.
They're listening to podcastswhile they're exercising or
while they're traveling or whilethey're in the car or on plane
rides.
They don't have time to sitdown and watch full length video
episodes on plane rides.
They don't have time to sitdown and watch full length video
episodes.
So does it make sense to producethese like pretty costly full
(13:27):
length video episodes when yourtarget audience isn't going to
be sitting down and watchingthem?
It doesn't really make sense.
That's not that that strategymaybe isn't the best strategy
here and actually we should beproducing shows that are maybe a
little bit more tightly edited,because we know that these
people don't have a lot of timeand we want to respect their
time, and that also doesn't lenditself to full-length video
episodes.
So in that case I would say wewould steer them away from
(13:50):
producing full-length videoepisodes.
On the other hand, if I wasworking with a client who was
making a B2C podcast and theirtarget audience was 18 to
25-year-old men, I woulddefinitely be thinking about
producing a full-length videopodcast, you know, a more chat
style show, because that's kindof content that they're familiar
(14:11):
with.
That's what they recognize as apodcast.
You know there's going to bebetter opportunities for cross
promotion with other podcastswith a show like that.
So these are all things that wewould think about and
discussions we would have in theearly days to sort of decide on
the strategy there.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I fully agree with your thought process around
shorts, reels, tiktoks, becausethere was a great report out
recently about, fundamentally,the follow model is maybe not
the model that we should belooking at now, because early
discovery from algorithmsYouTube's algorithm and also
(14:49):
TikTok's algorithm means thatnew content is being delivered
to people even if you're not afollower, and you're getting
great discovery in thatmechanism.
Now, look, let's get offYouTube.
Enough YouTube, let's move onto the other beast, spotify.
Now they recently came outsaying they want to do video.
We all know that and Daniel Xhas been very bullish on it.
The numbers have started to comeout around how they're going to
(15:11):
monetize video content.
So we know that if you uploadvideo to your audio RSS account,
they will replace the audioepisode with the video episode
and then you can't go back tothe audio.
They both YouTube and Spotifyask you to remove dynamic ad
insertions, so we know thatthat's no longer so.
(15:34):
We've seen now that some peopleare coming out and I know you
reshared one of the posts aswell I think that's how I
discovered it, actually whichwas a person telling their
client they've lost a thousanddollars because they didn't get
anything from the Spotify adnetwork, but they were getting
money from the video side, so isit just early days or is it
(15:56):
something that we should beaware of that?
Actually, the amount of moneythat you may gain from a video
strategy on Spotify is alwaysgoing to be lower than their
audio driven strategy.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, I don't know that it's always going to be
lower.
I think it is fair to say thatit is early days.
You know, like to be fair toSpotify it is, it is early days.
It will take time foradvertisers to jump in and for
them to be able to fill all ofthe inventory that they have
available to them.
You know advertising you couldopt into advertising through
(16:33):
anchor and there was a goodperiod of time where their
inventory was going empty or itwas like mostly being filled
with ads for anchor um internalads from Spotify.
So you know it takes time foradvertisers to jump on board and
for them to sell through all ofthat inventory and I think that
that's fair.
I guess my bigger concern withSpotify's strategy this is going
(16:54):
to be pretty critical ofSpotify, but it kind of goes
twofold.
So I would say that I haveconcerns about the fact that
this pivot to video is beingtied to Spotify's recent
positive earnings reports thathave come out.
I think that that's a hugemistake to correlate the two and
(17:16):
to conflate the two.
I don't see them as beingrelated.
Spotify had huge cuts and theylet go of a lot of people and
they made really big, drasticdecisions on their spending and
that, I think, has impactedtheir overall bottom line
drastically.
But because it's happened sortof at the same time as this
pivot to video, the two are sortof being connected and that's
the narrative.
(17:37):
We're being told that, likethis is the right strategy for
Spotify to lean into video.
I'm not seeing that.
I'm just not.
I'm not seeing that in people'sconsumption day to day.
I don't know anyone whoconsumes video on Spotify, so I
struggle with that beingcorrelated.
The second thing that I wouldsay about Spotify that I have
concerns around is I thinkSpotify is really, rather than
(18:01):
listening to creators andhearing what the concerns are
for creators and then addressingthose needs, they're constantly
chasing somebody else andcopying other people's models.
You know, like we saw this withtheir pivot to short form video
.
They wanted to start doingshort form video to compete with
TikTok.
That has been pretty much aflop.
(18:22):
I think it's fair to say Ahundred percent yeah.
Yeah, people have not consumedthat kind of content within
Spotify.
You know we've seen this with,I mean you could argue, even
podcasting in general.
Spotify, like getting into thepodcasting game in general, was
trying to copy somebody else'smodel and they have, overall,
(18:42):
not really proven to be able topull it off because they're not,
they're not really looking tofix a problem that already
exists, they're just copyingsomebody else's model.
I think that there'sopportunity to fix problems that
exist within podcasting onpodcast platforms.
I think if we you know where Isee Spotify having a lot of
(19:03):
opportunity would be amarketplace and being able to
sell ads for creators, forsmaller creators, so smaller
creators can opt in and thenthey fill their inventory with
ads automatically.
You know Spotify could reallytake the reins and do that for
on the audio ad side.
So the Spotify podcast adnetwork, like I see there's a
huge amount of potential therebecause that's gap, that's in
(19:24):
the industry that we have.
You know that's an area thatthere's not a lot of other
opportunities for that forcreators.
But I mean, on the video side,it's like you're so far behind
where YouTube is, like why eventry to become the new YouTube?
I don't know, it just seemslike there are other problems
(19:45):
and gaps in the industry thatthey could be filling.
For creators, and it would bemuch faster to be able to
accelerate their growth if theywere to fill those gaps rather
than just chasing the you knowwhat's popular now.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things in there I
agree with and a couple Iprobably disagree with.
So the first thing I think isthat Spotify had to go and find
new revenue streams.
I think you're right Conflatingthe two.
Returning to profitability mayhave been through cuts, but I
think they also know that ifthey're going to beat the market
, they have to find new revenuestreams I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I I also would say their audiobooks have that.
That pivot has been prettysuccessful, I think, for them.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You know, I think a lot of people are listening to
audiobooks and, well, maybe notrevenue wise yeah, I don know if
the numbers to back that up,but, again, with the audiobook
strategy, I believe that thatwas a separate revenue stream
that they were bringing to theplay Totally.
That was different to the musicrevenue stream, and, again,
they were hoping that podcaststhe ad revenue stream would be
another revenue stream.
(20:47):
I think video is just anotherrevenue stream, and I think
video is just another revenuestream, and I think, like we
talked about YouTube, live,james and I believe that Spotify
will get into live in a big way, but I think live more with
music concerts being able to goand see the Bruno Mars concert
because it's sold out, but youcan watch it online, or guess
what you can watch?
(21:07):
You know, the weekend I can'tget to Canada, but I can watch
them from the UK, right, so Ithink that could be a big
marketplace.
One of the things I often say,though, is if you remove the
music element from Spotify,would it make a good podcast
platform?
Would it be a standalone, goodapp?
What do you think?
No, no, exactly.
I don't think it's a greatclient, right.
(21:29):
And that, I think, is theirproblem.
I think they haven't got a goodui.
I think they're stuck withtheir music ui that they've
tried to adapt to a podcast, uithat they're trying to adapt to
a video, ui.
Um, I think it's too expensivein not well, it's not too
expensive.
They've got enough money, butit's too risky for them to do a
complete ui change and I thinkthey've bolted it.
(21:50):
But I think the one thing theyhave to do is they have to try
and go after these new revenuestreams.
I think they have to go aftervideo.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I do agree with you.
I don't agree that it needs tobe video.
I agree that they need todiversify their revenue streams.
I think the chase to video isnot.
I think that's not how peopleconsume things on Spotify.
It's not how people think ofSpotify.
So I think that's not howpeople consume things on Spotify
.
It's how people think ofSpotify.
So I think it's too vast of apivot for it's not considering
(22:20):
user behavior and userconsumption.
I think that when you weretalking about the UI for
podcasts, it's funny because Ithink actually Spotify had a lot
of opportunities withpodcasting to make that into
something really great.
Like Spotify became such a hugeapp for music because they have
a lot of strengths that couldthen be applied to podcasting.
You know, for example,spotify's algorithms and
(22:41):
recommendation tools were far,far, far ahead of everybody else
, at least back in the day maybenot so much nowadays, but back
in the day and they were usingAI for recommendations like far
before everybody else.
They were like way advanced onthose things and that hasn't
translated into podcasting.
Like we don't see really greatrecommendations coming for
(23:03):
podcast listening on Spotify'sapp.
Actually, I think it's gonedown in quality.
I think it used to be evenbetter than it is now.
You used to get like prettygood recommendations on the
podcast homepage on Spotify andI think it used to be even
better than it is now.
You used to get like prettygood recommendations on the
podcast homepage on Spotify andI think it was human curated at
one time and now it's now it'snot.
I don't know, and I think itdiffers from country to country
too.
I think in the States it'sbetter than it is in Canada
probably, and probably betterthan it is in the UK.
(23:24):
But why hasn't there been anykind of effort put into
discoverability for podcasts onthe Spotify app?
Because that is something thatthey are known for and we're
we're known to be very, verygood at and it's a big problem
in podcasting.
Like, if you could solve thatproblem, you know, then you
could, you could really make acase for why people should be
(23:46):
using Spotify to listen topodcasts, but there's been no
effort put into that.
So I don't know.
I I do agree with you on thediversifying thing.
Like they did need to diversify.
You can't just stick to music.
I get that.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I'm not sure that that video is the way to do that
necessarily I think the problemthey've got is and I've said it
on uh on news weekly with jameson several occasions they have
a pricey elasticity problem.
There is a point, a snap point,at which the price for their
subscription will becomedetrimental to renewal.
(24:19):
So if I said to you, are youhappy to pay 19.99, are you
happy to pay 25.99, 35.99, 50quid, right, there will be a
point which you go, I'm notreally that sure I want to pay
that anymore.
So I don't know where thatpoint is.
But because they're taking thevideo revenue that they give to
creators out of thatsubscription model.
If they are to give creators agreater revenue share, then they
(24:44):
have to increase that priceelasticity and their
subscription costs.
So I don't know what's going tohappen.
And in that sense, the one thingthat's missing from all the
detail and data that they giveus is how much do you pay?
Is it a per minute watchingpayment?
Is it a percentage completedpayment?
So if you watch a video, is it10, 50?
(25:07):
Do you have to watch 100 beforea payment is made?
We don't know.
Know, for example, I think it's30 seconds or more is
considered a music play, andthen that goes to their data mix
right, and that's what formspart of the payment to musicians
, but we don't know if that'strue with podcasting.
Yet we don't know Becausethey're not paying for the
podcast, which would be lovely,but they're paying for the video
(25:30):
element of the podcast, whichwould be lovely, but they're
paying for the video element ofthe podcast.
So it's very weird.
And I think also with YouTube,you know, they came out with
this one billion plays and Jamesand I looked at the numbers and
John McDermott, a friend of theshow, also looked at the
numbers and there was a numberof.
We're not quite sure.
That's quite good because it's.
You know how long is a playbefore it gets registered?
Is it a logged in, logged outplay?
(25:57):
So there's lots of things.
Okay, look, annalise, giventhat you're not a betting lady,
I'm assuming, but if you were abetting lady, would you say that
spotify or youtube, by the endof 2025 is going to be the
biggest player?
Who's going to win?
I think it'll be youtube and isthat your podcast client of
choice yourself?
That wouldn't be my choice.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
No, Well, personally I use Pocket Casts.
I like supporting a smallerpodcast player.
I have used Spotify in the past, particularly when they had
gated podcasts.
I did listen to a lot of Gimletshows on Spotify back in the
day.
That was also when I paid forSpotify premium, so I was in
there a lot more.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I don't pay for Spotify premium anymore so I
don't use spotify basically atall.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean, you're not in your parents account like every
other, every other young personmy parents don't even pay for
spotify, they use like googlemusic or so I don't know right
it doesn't exist anymore,something like that.
Um no, I use Tidal now, actually, which I chose them because
they have a higher payout tocreators, so that's why I
switched to Tidal and it's thesame price also, I would say,
(27:02):
and it has the same music, and Ididn't like the UI for
listening to podcasts on Spotifyanyways, so I didn't feel bad
about leaving that behind.
I did use Apple Podcasts for along time as well and I liked
Apple podcasts.
I do like Apple podcasts.
I like the homepage of Applepodcasts and that there's
editorial recommendations onApple and I actually find those
to be much more they're humanedited.
(27:24):
I know Pocket Cast is similarly, there's a human doing the
editorial decisions, but it'sApple, is country specific, so I
find I get a lot morerecommendations that are more
specific to me in Apple, which Ilike.
So I use Apple Podcasts on mydesktop and I check it pretty
regularly for new shows andthat's how I discover a new
(27:45):
podcast a lot of the time.
But for day-to-day playing Iuse Pocket Casts, because I
found Apple was really glitchy.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Okay, nice.
Now look one of the otherthings that day-to-day playing,
I use pocket casts because Ifound apple was really glitchy.
Okay, nice.
Now look one of the otherthings that you've been sharing
and talking about is somethingcalled an attention diet.
Now, I think that came from afriend of pacific ex-pacific,
actually steven pratt, friend ofthe show.
What is an attention diet andwhy do we need one?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, this was Steve's idea and the basic
framework is he was recommendingthat we all think about our
attention diet, sort of like youthink about your, your food
diet, your daily, you know foodpyramid.
What are you?
What are you eating every day?
Are you getting enoughvegetables?
Are you getting enough grains?
Are you getting enough protein?
So basically, the idea is hewas recommending we think about
(28:32):
the health of our attention diet.
So do we have a healthyattention diet?
Are we spending our time onthings that are actually helping
us to grow or are we, you know,mindlessly scrolling for hours
on TikTok?
I am very guilty of that, so Ishould probably try to build a
healthier attention diet.
So that was sort of the conceptthat he had.
He was recommending, you know,we start tracking our
(28:52):
consumption of, and where we'regiving our attention to, and
think about how we can turn thatinto something that might be a
little bit more healthy for forus in terms of our consumption,
the idea that we sort of tookfrom that.
So my colleague Hannah, who ishead of audience development at
Lower Street, she saw thisarticle and really liked it and
then had the idea to think abouthow we can apply this to our
(29:14):
clients and their needs thatthey might have and think about
it in the framework of like,what is our listeners attention
diet?
So every time we go to launch anew project, we spend a good
amount of time thinking aboutthe listener profile of that
we're trying to target.
And that includes thinkingabout you know what are their
habits, what are their.
You know challenges that theymight have Thinking about.
(29:35):
You know what are their habits,what are their.
You know challenges that theymight have.
Obviously, some demographic,any demographic insights we
could pull, but a big piece ofthat puzzle that we need to
start thinking about even moreis what is their attention diet,
what are they spending theirtime with already?
And we do this a little bitalready.
We have done this in the past alittle bit already when we
think about what other podcastsare they listening to.
So we would do like sort of acompetitive analysis of you know
(29:56):
what other podcasts are maybetargeting this audience, what?
What are they spending theirtime listening to already?
And the goal there is to makesomething that is both unique
but also familiar, so somethingthat is going to be filling a
gap in in the market If you justgo to market with the same show
that's already out there, thenwhy would anybody pivot and
switch to listen to your show?
(30:17):
Right, it doesn't make sense.
Um, but you also want to makesomething that feels familiar
enough that they're going towant to click play.
It's kind of like when we weretalking about, you know, the
YouTube strategy.
If I'm making a show for 18year old men, I'm probably going
to make a video podcast,because I know that that's what
they recognize as a podcast andso that can help us to figure
(30:38):
out like a marketing strategyand develop a show altogether.
So, yeah, so we were alreadyusing that sort of mentality,
but then applying this idea ofan attention diet sort of
broadens it even further,because then we're thinking
about things like you know, arethey spending a lot of time
watching Netflix?
Is this a demographic that isstill reading Forbes every day?
(31:02):
Is this a group of people whospends a lot of time listening
to music and do they subscribeto a paid Spotify account?
All of those things are reallyhelpful for thinking about, not
just you know, what is the showthat we're going to build, but
also how can we get our podcastin front of this audience.
You know, would it be helpfulto have a feature in Forbes to
(31:23):
promote the podcast?
Um?
Is that going to get in frontof this audience?
Is it helpful to you know,build a show that is easy to put
on in the background on YouTube, on your TV?
Um, because we know that thisaudience has their TV on.
You know they there may be,like I know we used to.
We always say like two screens,but I know now we're talking
about like three screenaudiences.
(31:44):
Maybe they're like a threescreen zoomer, and we want to
have something that they can puton in the background on their
TV.
Those are, all you know,important things to consider
when we're developing a show andfiguring out how to market it.
So, yeah, so that's how we'veapplied this idea of this
attention diet to our ourpodcast process with our clients
.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Nice, nice Now.
You were in New York recently.
You were on Airfest Um.
What were your takeaways?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Um, so I think probably my big you know it's
funny cause, like, after theseconferences, people like to sort
of get a gauge for, like, arethings feeling positive or are
things feeling negative in theindustry?
I would say that for once, Idon't think I walked away
feeling either way about it.
(32:31):
If I'm totally honest, I gotthe impression that in New York
City right now, peoplepodcasting is not their priority
.
People have a lot of otherthings on their mind and are
maybe a little checked out ofpodcasting right now.
So that's the vibe in Americathat I was picking up on anyway
In terms of conversations that Iwas having around podcasting,
(32:53):
though I would say that, like Ithink that amongst people who
work in the industry, there is abit of a frustration with this
constant push towards video.
That's not because people arenot thinking about video or
they're not willing to pivot tovideo or they're not willing to
explore video or anything likethat.
There's a frustration thatpodcasting is becoming
synonymous with a video talkshow, because there is so many
(33:19):
other formats that a podcastcould take and it could be so
much more creative and so muchmore interesting than that, and
I think people are feeling sortof a lack of creativity in the
industry right now and that'svery frustrating.
The other conversation that Iwas having a lot was around
video clips and the value ofvideo clips, and I would say
like I think that there's sortof an understanding amongst most
(33:41):
of the people that I spoke tothat video clips are worth it.
Because of what you said aboutyou know, discoverability and
the algorithm putting them infront of people who have never,
who don't follow you, who havenever been connected to you at
all, who don't follow you or whonever been connected to you at
all.
I think that there's a lot ofvalue there and also, a lot of
times, video clips don'tnecessarily lead to new
(34:02):
downloads, but they serve sortof another purpose and that
people can consume clips withoutever going to listen to full
length episodes of the podcastand that that's still valuable
and that's still okay.
Think, like, when I look at myown consumption, that's
definitely the case, that that'sstill valuable and that's still
okay.
I think like I, when I look atmy own consumption, that's
definitely the case, likethere's a lot of podcasts where
I love seeing their clips showup on my for you page.
(34:24):
I will never go listen to thefull length episode of that
podcast.
It's just not the type ofpodcast that I would typically
consume and I don't want tolisten to like a whole two,
three hour long episode of it.
But I really love the clips andit introduced me to new
creators and I still you know,I'm introduced to this world of
the podcast Um, and I wouldfollow them on social media.
(34:45):
But like I'm not interested inlistening to the full length
episodes, I think there's a lotof value there still, and so if
we only measure it in terms oflike as a, as a discoverability
tool or as a marketing tool, Idon't know that clips have a
whole lot of value in terms ofthat.
I don't think that theynecessarily generate a lot of
downloads, but I still do thinkthat they do hold a lot of value
(35:06):
for creators and for brands andfor podcasters.
So that was another sort oftakeaway, I guess, from from
that time.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I think shorts do help with brand awareness
because I think it's throughosmosis over time.
I think if you're repetition,repetition, repetition, you
eventually get oh, maybe I'llclick and listen.
I don't think it's an immediatedownload return.
I also think that you know inthe world that we are.
I think what you've saidthrough the whole of this
(35:35):
interview, which has been quiteinteresting, is discoverability
is being a big issue and itstill always is.
I mean, james thinks I believethat there isn't a big
discoverability issue.
I think there is.
That's where we differ and Ithink we're learning that shorts
are a great way for a newcustomer discoverability,
(35:55):
introduction to somethingthrough an algorithm.
But I think we're seeingyoutube's algorithm as another
form of good discoverability andwhether whether we can build
community from the shortsleading to long form podcasts,
leading to community, sorepeatable customers.
That's an interesting part andI think we're seeing a bigger
(36:18):
push towards people talk aboutcommunity.
We talk about fandoms, we talkabout monetization of fandoms
and how that can happen now.
So I think that's where I thinkwe are in 25.
And I think I find Spotify maybe in the squeezed middle.
I think they could be thesqueezed middle, which is
they're not YouTube and they'renot really video, but they're
(36:39):
not really shorts.
As we said, they didn't reallyhave a TikTok strategy that
worked.
I think, as you said, purpose ofSpotify for most users is music
, not podcasting.
For some reason, there isn't.
I think there was supposed tobe an easy transition between if
you talk about the attentiondiet I'm listening to music, I'm
now going to switch over to mypodcast.
I'm now going to go back to myaudio book.
(37:01):
Now I'm going to go and watch alive event, if they did that.
Now I'm going to do somethingelse and staying within the
garden wall of Spotify.
But I don't feel that that'shappening.
I do feel that Apple is missingin action.
I just feel that they're justlost.
I have no idea what Apple isdoing.
Hello Apple, 164,000 of you.
I don't know what you're alldoing, but someone wake up the
(37:22):
donut because no one's at home.
I really don't know whatApple's doing and they hate me
for saying that, but generally Ijust believe they're missing
every opportunity and I don'tknow what they're doing.
But okay, look the last part Iwanted to cover.
(37:42):
It's international women inpodcasting, right, and what does
that mean?
What does that mean for you asa woman.
What does that mean for us asan industry?
Where do men fit within thatconversation?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
So let me go back to one of the points that you made.
That was around discoverability, that you said that you think
that there is a problem andJames said that there isn't, and
I think I agree with you that Ido think discoverability is a
problem.
I think it's always been aproblem in podcasting and we
haven't solved that problem yet,but I think that it used to be
the case that discoverabilitywas the issue and that if people
(38:11):
took a little extra time to dig, you could find really, really
amazing, great content.
I'm not saying that that's nottrue today.
I know that there's a lot ofamazing podcasts being made, but
I think that we are slippinginto a space where there is also
a content problem.
The quality of the content thatI'm seeing come out today it's
not the same as it was fiveyears ago.
It's just not.
We've seen like huge budgetcuts.
(38:35):
We've seen pivots towardsquantity over quality, really
because there's an understandingthat if I can just throw a
bunch of ad markers into thispodcast and pump out content
every other day, that I'm goingto make more money than I would
if I were to invest in qualitycontent that got a lot more
downloads over a much fewerepisodes and I think that, like
(38:56):
when I I talk to, when I havefriends, that friends reach out
all the time and are like whatare you listening to?
What should I listen to?
I don't have recommendationslike I used to have for them.
So I think that there's a realrisk in that and I bring this up
now because I think with thathas sort of come there's there's
a huge diversity problem inpodcasting.
That it's always been thereagain, but it is getting much
(39:19):
worse.
And being in New York, I thinkthat was really highlighted for
me.
I think there are definitely onthe gender side of things.
Podcasting has always been muchmore male dominated, you know
there was it sort of started aslike a tech product and it was
definitely gated and verydifficult to get into if you
(39:42):
were a woman.
Back, even when I startedgetting into podcasting about 10
years ago, it was very hard tofind anybody who would help me
to learn in the space as a woman.
There wasn't a lot of welcomespaces for me.
There was a lot of jargon thatwas being thrown around without
any sort of, you know, attemptto sort of let me into that
(40:03):
space, and it took a lot ofpersistence to really push
through it, to even figure outhow to set up an RSS feed,
frankly, which is crazy backthen.
So you know, I think there'salways been that sort of as a
through line in podcasting andthat's something we should be
working towards fixing for sure.
I think we've come a long way.
(40:23):
I think podcasting has gotten alot more accessible for women.
But if we zoom out beyond justour industry and see how people
perceive us, they perceivepodcasting as being a space for
for white dudes sitting around amicrophone right, that's what
podcasting is to a lot of people.
That's, that's problematic.
And I would say, like, beyondwomen, like there is a huge lack
(40:44):
of people of color who are onmicrophones right now and
podcasting and it's.
It's alarming to me, like at OnAir Fest, I really felt that
I'm not.
This isn't a dig.
At On Air Fest, it's just'sjust.
You know, looking around theroom, um, it's gotten worse,
we're going in the wrongdirection.
I would say, um, and that isalarming.
And I think again, I think thatcomes with the lack of budgets,
(41:07):
um, huge budget cuts,unfortunately.
You end up with women andpeople of color.
Their shows get cut from thosebudgets.
So, yeah, I think that's partof the problem.
I also I would say, like, asI'm saying this, I think that
there's a little bit of amisconception too, that you know
, when you have the people incharge be primarily white men
(41:28):
who are making these decisions,they view podcasts that are
hosted by women and are aboutwomen's issues as being niche or
like not scalable, and that'swhy they get cut early on or
they never get made in the firstplace, and that's just not the
case at all.
So, yeah, I think there's alsoprobably a little bit of that
(41:49):
happening.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I think budgets has a role to play.
I think the market opportunity,as you said, for the female-led
podcasts or people of colorpodcasts.
But there are more women thanmen in the world.
That that is.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
That is a known fact also, women make all of the
purchasing decisions for theirfamilies, but women are the
primary consumers.
So if we're talking about likepotential for revenue, I mean,
for god's sakes, how many brandsare targeting women primarily,
especially millennial women, uh,who are taking care of their
children and their parents atthis stage?
They're the sandwich generationand they're making all of the
(42:26):
purchasing decisions for notjust themselves, but for their
children and for their parents.
So when you talk about who ismost monetizable, it's women as
consumers.
So it's a huge missedopportunity from a revenue
perspective.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And also podcasts are wonderful for multitasking,
right.
So the audio podcast capabilitylook, I'm doing the shopping,
I'm at the gym, I'm picking upthe kids, I'm whatever they may
be and I don't mean to bestereotypical on my way to work
as well, right?
So let's not just say it'sthose roles, but those are
opportunity times where audio inthe ear works very well, where
(43:03):
video does not work very wellbecause you haven't got the time
to sit and watch.
I think the other thing, thoughand again I think it's a gender
thing that I've observed, Imean in my time, you know, as a
young boy, a boy will put hishand up in class when a girl
won't.
A young boy will climb thattree.
(43:23):
When a girl won't, or is notwon't, is told not to even right
, let alone won't.
So my daughter will tell mewell, you know, I wanted to
climb the tree, but I was toldnot to climb the tree because
I'm a girl, and so those thingshappen.
So I wonder whether sittingbehind a mic is that typical
male bravado.
Yeah, I'll just do it.
(43:43):
I don't know if I'm good or bad, I don't really care, I have no
issue, whereas the femalepodcaster may think more
carefully about that I do know.
For example, men will go forjobs when they're underqualified
and qualify into the job,whereas women will wait till
they're overqualified for a jobbefore they take it as an
example.
So I don't know if thosestereotypes play into podcasting
(44:06):
.
I think video plays worse intoit because, again, the
expectation on the female is tobe made up to have, you know,
her makeup, her hair andeverything else done.
I could rock up half beardedand nobody would probably care,
right?
So, although I'd like to pointout to those people who can't
see, I am fully clean shaventoday, just in case.
(44:28):
But I think those, those arethe things.
And then again, you know it'sdifficult, but does
International Women's Day, goingback to the question, does that
help raise the bar?
Do you find that you're gettingmore female voices now because
of the awareness?
Because it's been going for afew years now, it's not just
(44:49):
this year.
So do you think, from theconversations you might have had
with some of your friends, thatit's been a positive thing?
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Big question I think all of your points I totally
agree with.
I don't know, I mean, I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
Big question I think all ofyour points are I totally agree
with.
I don't know, I mean, I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
No, no, it's not a bad thing.
Look, raising the awareness isnot a bad thing.
But my, my question is look, wecan talk about black lives
matter, and I think black livesmatter doesn't make any
difference, Right?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I just don't.
I think, at the end of the day,you can have DEI, black Lives
Matter and many otherinitiatives and I don't.
I don't know that it makes ahuge difference, but at the same
time, it is one time a yearwhere you do have to like.
For example, I was puttingtogether a playlist of podcasts
that we one of the blog posts Iwrote recently was like podcasts
that we want to recommend toour clients that they listen to.
We want to recommend to ourclients that they listen to.
In putting together that list,because of some of these
initiatives like DEI and likeyou know, because we have these
(46:05):
conversations about, you know,why don't we have enough women
in power, why don't we haveenough people of color in
positions of power.
Because of that I'm I'm hyperaware of like.
I don't want to put together alist of a bunch of white dudes
talking.
I'd like a list that has alittle bit more diversity, that
represents and also thatrepresents more than just my
listening right Like thatrepresents podcasts that are
(46:26):
targeted towards other people aswell and might not be made for
me specifically, but in makingthat list, it was really hard to
find podcasts that are made bynon-white people Harder than I
would say it ever has been.
My listening has gotten likefar less diverse than it used to
be.
Um, and and I think having thatawareness is like kind of the
(46:48):
first step to fixing the problemlike I don't know how, unless
you're aware of that and you'rethinking about those things, are
you making efforts to sort offix it?
Because, like, as you said,because so often it is the boys
that are the first to jump inand the first to sort of like
volunteer to be the hosts, andit might take a little extra
(47:10):
work to find a woman who is, hasthe confidence to step up to
the mic and wants to do that andwants to take on that role.
And it might take a little.
You know, maybe you have totake a chance on somebody who
has a little less experience, ormaybe you have to, you know, do
a little extra training to makethat happen.
And if you don't, if youweren't aware of these things,
if you weren't like seeking itout actively, then how do you
(47:32):
fix it?
You know, like I just feel likewe'll just fall back into the
same cycles over and over again.
So I know what you mean and Idon't totally disagree with you.
Like I, you know InternationalWomen's Day kind of comes around
every year and like I agreethat I don't see it making a
huge difference.
Like a lot of it is sort oflike silly corporate bullshit.
(47:54):
Frankly, that's like notactually moving the needle.
But at the same time, if itdoes, kind of if trying to put
together your list forInternational Women's Day of
inspiring women that you'regoing to post on LinkedIn just
to get some likes and show thatyou're, you know, holier than
thou because you care aboutwomen.
If, in putting together thatlist, you realize that it's
really hard to find women tohighlight because there aren't
(48:17):
enough in these positions or youdon't have enough in your
company, maybe that's a wake upcall that you need to then
actively try to fix that, youknow.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, Maybe it's an awareness day Just to bring that
awareness to light to theconversation.
Annalise, I think we could talklots more, but I think the time
will go on and James will beediting this very heavily.
Anyway, Look, thank you so much.
Thank you for your insightsinto the thoughts on YouTube,
Spotify, short form brandedcontent, lots that we covered,
(48:50):
so thank you very much.
Now are you going to be atChicago for podcast movement?
Are you going to be in Londonfor the London podcast show?
Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
So I would love to be at both of those, those, but
actually I am heading off onmaternity leave as a
congratulations.
So thank you very much.
So, yeah, I will be on a bit ofa break from about a year, but
I will be back in full swingagain 2026.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
So yeah, well, look congratulations and look when
you come back.
I look forward to meeting upwith you.
Thanks a lot.
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