March 31, 2025 • 25 mins
Edison Research Vice President Megan Lazovic joins us to unpack key findings from the Infinite Dial 2025 report and explore the growing phenomenon of podcast fandom.
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Announcer (00:00):
The Pub News Weekly Review.
With Buzzsprout Podcast hostingmade easy.
Sam Sethi (00:07):
I'm joined today by a friend of the show.
Her name's Megan Lazovic.
She is the Edison Research VicePresident.
You may have seen her recentlyhosting the Infinite Dial 2025
with James Cridland.
Megan, hello, how are you?
Megan Lazovick (00:21):
Hi, sam, I'm great Thanks for having me.
Sam Sethi (00:24):
What a great job.
Well done to you and to Jameson the presentation.
It was really insightful, andwhat I'd love to do today is now
start to unpack some of that.
Now you've had time todecompress, I guess, from having
to put it out there.
It'd be lovely to go throughsome of the highlights with you
and get your further thoughtsreally.
So, first of all, let's startoff with Infinite Dial.
(00:46):
How long has it been going?
Megan Lazovick (00:48):
So it is the 27th year of the study and it
was started by Edison President,larry Rosen and the team back
then.
And I actually gave a shout outto Pierre Bovard who is, with
Cumulus, one of the sponsors ofthe report, but he really is the
one who came to Larry way backthen to talk about internet
(01:09):
radio and they wanted to get asense of how Americans are using
it.
And we're so lucky that we'vebeen able to find sponsors for
the studies for 27 years sowe've been able to measure that
growth over time and all of thedigital audio consumption and
other consumer behaviors overthat time.
Sam Sethi (01:28):
You've also grown the infinite dial to be in other
countries as well.
Where are the infinite dials?
Megan Lazovick (01:34):
We have many different infinite dials, not
necessarily consistent everyyear in every country.
We've done Germany, we've doneSouth Africa, australia.
That one is coming up actually.
I don't know if We've doneSouth Africa, australia.
That one is coming up actually.
I don't know if we'veofficially announced it, but you
can look for that one this year.
We've done New Zealand, manyyears ago, I think, we did
(01:54):
Ireland, uk.
So really we're trying to getit anywhere we can.
Ideally we can get to a placewhere we're doing it every
single year in every country.
So we can get the same benefitsthat we do with the US study,
where we see year after yearconsistency and we're able to
see how habits have grown.
Sam Sethi (02:14):
But it's also nice if we can only do the study every
two years to look at consumerbehaviors that way, so the study
highlights critical insightsinto podcast consumption, online
audio trends, in-car audiousage, smart speaker usage,
social media behaviours andother digital media.
Now, what was the big highlightOne that James, I think,
(02:37):
highlighted on Pod News Dailywas that podcasting has gone
mainstream.
Over 50% of people now areconsuming or listening to a
podcast.
Is that the big takeaway foryou from the report, or was
there something else that youthought?
No, that was not the bigtakeaway, James.
This is what the big takeawayis.
Megan Lazovick (02:57):
Well, the big takeaway is up.
Things are up.
Digital consumption is up, butespecially podcast consumption
is up, and that's the thing thateveryone is holding their
breath for every single year.
You know I have reportersmessaging me.
Can you just tell me, is itgoing to be up?
You don't have to give me thenumber Is it going to be up?
(03:17):
So that was the great news, thatevery year we've previously
reported podcast listening.
That podcast listening is nowup 70% of Americans have
listened to a podcast.
That's up from previous years.
And of course, the exciting bitof this year is that we didn't
just measure listening, we alsoasked about watching podcasts,
(03:39):
and 51% of Americans havewatched a podcast.
So you know the majority ofAmericans are consuming podcasts
through video.
And then when you sort of rollup that information and look at
the combined consumption figures, we have an even higher jump
73% of Americans have consumed apodcast either through audio or
video.
(03:59):
So it's pretty much up any wayyou look at it.
If you're just looking at audio, we see increase.
If you roll in those videonumbers, you see even more of an
increase, which is exciting foreveryone in the space.
They want to be able to saylook how much we've grown.
Sam Sethi (04:13):
Yeah, and one of the things in the report is that
YouTube is a service used mostoften to listen to podcasts,
which, again, given that they'veonly gone into the market, that
was also a staggering standoutfor me.
Megan Lazovick (04:26):
Well, of course, podcasts have been on YouTube
for many years.
And actually, sam, I shouldtell you I know that you're
looking at it from the tech sideI'm always looking at it from
the consumer side.
While I do work with thesurveys and the quantitative
research, I spend a lot of mytime in qualitative research,
where I'm talking to real peopleabout their consumption.
(04:47):
And you ask a real person abouttheir consumption to podcasts,
they say, oh, yeah, I've beenlistening to podcasts or I've
been watching this podcast onYouTube for years.
So the consumers don'tnecessarily think about the tech
and the networks and all ofthat.
They don't see it the same waythat people in the industry do.
So we say, oh, youtube just gotin the space, or they finally
(05:10):
just talked about it in theiryearly meeting.
But no, they've been in thespace because that's where
people are.
They're heavily using YouTubefor so many different parts of
their life, so it makes sensethat they're also consuming
podcast content through YouTube.
Sam Sethi (05:25):
So I love the fact that everything's up.
But looking back over the lastsix, seven months, maybe even
the last couple of years, wetalk about a number of
redundancies within the industry.
We talk about the fact thatadvertising revenue is not going
across that 2 billion threshold.
How do we equate the two,between a growing audience
that's listening and yet adeclining industry in terms of
(05:49):
the number of people?
So where do we balance thosetwo parts of the conversation?
Megan Lazovick (05:54):
I mean there's an ebb and flow in every part of
business and adjustment,readjustment, and I'm sorry I
can't necessarily speak to allof that again because I'm so in
the consumer world.
But we do know the opportunityis there and hopefully having
these new numbers can help theindustry prove their case, prove
(06:16):
that people are consuming, thatpeople are getting the
messaging and that it's reallyvaluable messaging.
And one of the other studies Iknow we'll get to later the
fandom phenomenon does talkabout the amazing relationship
that listeners have withpodcasts and how much they value
messaging through thosepodcasts.
(06:36):
So the opportunity isabsolutely there and it's
growing because more and morepeople are entering the space
every day.
So how the industry harnessesthat, I can't help you there,
I'm sorry.
The opportunity is there.
That's what you guys have tofigure out.
Sam Sethi (06:51):
Okay Now, one of the other things that's quite
interesting was car audiocontinues to grow.
Why is that?
Are we all coming out of COVID?
Is this just going back towhere it was pre-COVID, or is
this a growth beyond what wasthere before?
Megan Lazovick (07:03):
So I think it has less to do with COVID and
more to do with the adoption oftechnology in the car.
Infinite Dial has been showinggrowth in digital audio usage
year after year after year, very, very fast on mobile devices et
cetera, but the car environmentmoves so much slower.
People own their car for 10years, so even though that
(07:25):
technology is out there, they'renot adopting it as quickly as
they do in other parts of theirlives.
So the exciting part here thatwe're seeing in some of the data
points about automotive phoneintegration system is that we're
finally reaching a tippingpoint where more than a third of
Americans have these systemsand use these systems in their
(07:47):
cars.
So people are hooking theirphone into Apple CarPlay, into
Android Auto.
That is changing consumptionbehaviors in the car and it's
making so much easier for themto take their behaviors
listening to their podcasts,listening to their music
services that they wouldnormally do outside and bringing
that into the car.
Sam Sethi (08:06):
Are we then seeing when you talk about audio
consumption overall, are we thenseeing people's attention and
time that they have availableincreasing with podcasting, but
does that mean they'redecreasing with radio?
Megan Lazovick (08:19):
Radio is still very strong in the car and the
study, infinite Dial, did notmeasure it in that way, so I
can't answer that question.
But our Cherivere studymeasures overall habits and time
spent listening.
Infinite Dial is more about thereach how many people are doing
these behaviors.
Cherivere talks about theamount of time that people are
spending and so that definitelysubscribers have answers to all
(08:43):
of those questions both insideand out of the car.
Sam Sethi (08:47):
So when will the next share of ear report drop?
Megan Lazovick (08:50):
So Share of Ear is a quarterly subscription
study from Edison Research, soall of our subscribers have
access all of the time and getupdates on that data every
quarter.
But we do release tidbits foreveryone else every now and then
.
If you subscribe to Edison'sWeekly Insights that's our
(09:11):
weekly newsletter that drops onWednesdays we often provide free
data from Share of Year, so itisn't one report per se.
But subscribe to Edison WeeklyInsights and you'll get data on
Share of Year, and actually Ithink we do have an in-car Share
of Year tidbit coming.
So subscribe now and maybeyou'll see something soon.
Sam Sethi (09:33):
Now this is, as you said, the overall consumption in
audio as well, not just purelyin podcasting.
But you're also looking atsocial media.
You're looking at TV.
You know YouTube have talkedabout their primary platform is
now going to be TV, which is forme very weird because I've
never really looked at YouTubeon a TV.
Again, that's what people aretelling you.
(09:54):
But social media itself?
Where are you seeing thechanges occurring there?
What's happening with people'sbehaviours?
Megan Lazovick (10:03):
Well, can I tell you just related to Infinite
Dial, anecdotally, we used tohave lots of live conversation
on Twitter.
Everyone used to watch InfiniteDial and use the hashtag and
talk on Twitter and social mediausage has been a lot more
disjointed.
You know, there's a big loss tothe X platform.
(10:24):
People have moved to otherplatforms and for the webinar
itself it was great.
All of our viewers wereactually chatting in the Zoom
platform to each other becausethere wasn't one platform that
we were all together.
So it was nice for the webinar.
I enjoyed seeing everyonechatting, but it's also
frustrating that there doesn'tseem to be one platform that we
(10:47):
were all on.
Of course there's the metaplatforms Facebook, instagram.
They're really dominating thespace.
But Infinite Dial and, I think,the podcast world when we're
talking about more businessstuff where has that landed?
I'm not necessarily postingabout Infinite Dial on my
Facebook, so it's veryinteresting.
(11:07):
The space and the Infinite Dialdoes show all of the changes
and where people have left, whatplatforms are growing.
And actually my favoritequestion from that section was
about TikTok, because we werefielding the study in early
January when everyone thoughtTikTok was going to go away and
we wondered what would happen.
Where would people go?
So we actually added thatquestion in the study.
(11:30):
If TikTok were to be banned inthe US, which one social network
service would you use mostoften?
So we got to that hypotheticalanswer and most people said that
they would go to Instagram orFacebook.
But it did vary by age.
So the younger people were morelikely to choose Instagram,
older people were more likely tochoose Facebook.
(11:51):
But there was a good cohortacross all generations that said
they would use YouTube andYouTube Shorts.
Sam Sethi (11:56):
Yeah, james was laughing about Mastodon didn't
really get a mention in there.
It was like at the bottom,bringing it all up, is Mastodon?
Yeah, I think it's verytechnical and very geeky and
that's where we all hang out.
But I think Blue Sky seems, formy anecdotal friends, to be the
one that everyone seems to benow regravitating towards.
And then the other one I wonderwhether you would do it next
(12:18):
time you do a report, whetheryou would do it on YouTube with
the live chat, because I've beenwatching a lot of political
podcasts and a lot of sportspodcasts are using the YouTube
platform to do live video andusing the super chats and the
chats down the side as theirmechanism of getting their
(12:39):
community to gravitate and talk.
Megan Lazovick (12:41):
Yeah, we probably should dig more into
YouTube next year, but I willsay this is why this research is
so important because peopleforget how their world is so
different from others.
In your space, everyone isusing blue sky.
I'm on blue sky too, but whenwe looked at the data, we saw
(13:04):
that it was very different.
We looked at Republicans versusDemocrat and blue sky was way
heavier among Democrats than itwas Republicans.
So it's like everyone has theirlittle bubbles.
If it was called red sky, theRepublicans would have gone
Democrats than it wasRepublicans.
So it's like everyone has theirlittle bubbles.
Sam Sethi (13:16):
If it was called Red Sky, the Republicans would have
gone there.
Because it was called Blue Sky,the Republicans couldn't go
there.
Megan Lazovick (13:22):
I didn't even make that connection, but very
funny.
Sam Sethi (13:25):
So will you be doing this same presentation at
Podcast Movement in a couple ofweeks time, or even next week?
Gosh, next week.
Megan Lazovick (13:33):
No Infinite Dial lives on the internet for all
to see however many times they'dlike, but I will be presenting
the fandom phenomenon.
That's a study that we didjointly with Wondery and Zensu,
and I'm really excited to talkabout how much people love
podcasting and how muchpodcasting loves them back, what
(13:57):
it gives to them in their lives, and all of the different ways
that podcast enhances people'slives.
Sam Sethi (14:03):
Well, let's talk about that report.
I was really interested in theoutcome of that report.
You sort of touched on it thatthere is a parasocial
relationship between the fan andthe creator.
Is this something that wasunexpected, or do we not know
this already?
And if we know now that thereis that relationship, how can
(14:23):
the creator enhance thatrelationship with their fan then
so no, it was not a surprise.
Megan Lazovick (14:28):
We already knew that there was something really
special about the connectionbetween a podcast consumer and
the show.
We already knew that there wasthis level of fandom out there
and from previous research weknew that people were more
likely to trust the messagingthat came from a host if they
(14:49):
were a fan.
So we already knew somethingwas special there.
But the intention of the studywas to really break it apart and
understand it a little bit more, to understand all of the
different ways that fandomenhances a person's life.
People talk about fandom in somany different ways fans of
artists, fans of sports, wherepeople have this crazy love for
(15:10):
something, where it's not just,oh, I like it.
It's like becomes a part oftheir personality, it becomes a
way that they see themselves,and that exists in podcasts too.
Sam Sethi (15:23):
So is it a funnel effect?
Is it that you start off with atangential relationship you
might have just heard of thispodcast.
Then you take five or sixepisodes to gain a relationship
with this podcast and then youmove down the funnel.
You now are fully engaged.
So is it a state of mind thatyou become a fandom?
(15:44):
Is it a badge of honor that youreach, or is it day one you can
be in the fandom?
Megan Lazovick (15:49):
It's not necessarily a certain path for
everyone.
Everyone has their own path tofandom.
You know, some people become asuper fan of a podcast because
they already love the topic orthey already love the
personality.
Actually, you know, amy Poehlerjust came out with her podcast
and I've loved her forever.
She's released three episodes.
(16:10):
I'm already a fan of herpodcast.
So there are different pathsand there are sort of and that's
one of the things that we triedto do with this study sort of
understanding how listenersbecome fans.
There are kind of fourdifferent end points.
There's sort of the connectionthat stems from feeling like
they're friends with the host.
71% of fans say that they feellike they're friends with the
(16:34):
host.
So it's connection-driven.
It could also beidentity-driven.
One of the people we conducted,in addition to a survey, we
also conducted in-personinterviews.
One of the people we spoke tosaid I think podcasts helped me
see myself more clearly.
They've helped me understandmyself.
So there's this underlyingconnection with identity with
podcasts.
(16:54):
They can also become a fanthrough emotional connection.
Someone said podcasts help mebe more productive, they help me
regulate my attitude.
So or they make me laugh.
They 71% said.
Of the fans, 71% said they arefans because podcasts help them
escape real life.
(17:15):
So there's like this emotionalconnection.
And then, finally, there's thesense of community.
That's also one of the fourprimary drivers for fandom 62%
are fans because they help themfeel like they're a part of
something bigger than themselves.
So I am a fan of this podcastcalled.
Sam Sethi (17:35):
You were about to say Pod News Weekly, weren't you?
Megan Lazovick (17:37):
Pod News Weekly.
Yes, when I meet another PodNews Weekly fan, we go crazy
because we're like, oh my gosh,you listen to Sam and James too.
You know there is that sense.
It's not just you, it's biggerthan you.
So those are four differentexamples, four different touch
points that get people intofandom, that sort of drive, the
(17:59):
fandom.
And it's great for podcastersto understand all of these
different endpoints, to betterunderstand what they're doing
well, and that's great forbrands, too, to sort of
understand the different waysthat they can connect with
consumers through podcasts.
Sam Sethi (18:17):
So you talked about connectivity and community.
You talked about fan-to-fancommunity and you talked about
even the Infinite Dial.
Used to use the back channel ofX for conversation, but you
couldn't do that.
So is it beholden to podcastapps now to provide better
community functions?
Because podcasting to me in thepodcasting 1.0 type arena, you
(18:40):
know the first iteration, it wasa very singular act of
listening to your podcast, toyour headphones, to your dog
walk, to your car drive, all itseems very singular.
But now, with fandom, you'retalking about expanding that out
to a community of people whoare associated to the single
podcast.
(19:00):
So is it apps need to do abetter job to give that peer to
peer communication?
Megan Lazovick (19:05):
Yeah, I think there's an opportunity there.
It has to be authentic to thepodcast, the podcast host.
If you tend to have fans,listeners, that are already
reaching out to you and eachother, then that's an
opportunity to interact withthem and give them more, because
we do know that those fans wantmore or appreciate more, but
(19:28):
every podcast is different andthey provide different things to
their consumers, so it has tomake sense for your product.
Sam Sethi (19:37):
I think again looking at YouTube, because you know,
it's one of those platforms thatI sort of dismissed when they
first announced they're doingpodcasts.
Oh, there we go.
And when I actually look atwhat they're doing, they're
doing a damn fine job because,as we talked about, live with
super chats, that's monetization, that's community fan to fan,
that is interaction with thehosts.
(19:58):
And then you look at the newversion they've released around
member access to exclusivecontent and they do merch.
Megan Lazovick (20:27):
They do merch.
I mean they especially ifpeople are already on the
platform people are usingYouTube, people are using
Spotify, et cetera thenproviding them those touch
points on the platform that theyalready use makes sense.
Sam Sethi (20:42):
Does okay.
So from a business point ofview now, does a fan or a super
fan generate significantly morerevenue for the creator?
Are they the people who buyyour t-shirts?
Are they the people who go toyour live concert?
Are they the people who will,in the podcasting 2.0 world,
give you a tip in micropayments?
(21:04):
Is that what we are trying toidentify, the super fans within
our fandom?
Megan Lazovick (21:11):
Well, yes, they absolutely are helping the show
in many ways.
Podcast fans are so emotionallyinvested in shows and hosts
they love that they often lookfor ways to engage with fandom
beyond just listening to thepodcast or watching the podcast.
43% of fans engage withpodcast-originated IP through
(21:34):
other media, so that couldinclude TV and books.
68% say they have followedtheir favorite pod on social
media.
So they are looking for thesetouch points outside of just
consuming the podcast.
Sam Sethi (21:49):
Cool.
So you said you're going to bepresenting this at Podcast
Movement.
What day are you presenting itso somebody can go along?
Megan Lazovick (21:58):
Yes, april 1st.
I probably should know my timeslot.
I think it's in the afternoonat some point.
You look that up for me, sam.
Sam Sethi (22:05):
Make sure it's after 12 o'clock, otherwise it's an
April Fool.
Yes.
Megan Lazovick (22:10):
Yes, I'm really excited the white paper is
already out, so if you'reinterested in this data, you can
look it up and review some ofthe stats.
But I'm especially excited toshow it at Podcast Movement
because I also have videos fromsome of our in-person
observational interviews toshare that were not a part of
(22:31):
the white paper.
This is actually it's been oneof my favorite studies over the
many years I've worked at EdisonResearch, because I got to hang
out with the fans andexperience super special live
podcast experiences with them.
I actually met a young boy inhis family His name was Fox in
New Jersey and he's a Wow in theWorld super fan.
(22:53):
So I met with him in themorning.
We ate breakfast together, heshowed me all of his Wow in the
World books and read all of hisfavorite Wow in the World facts
and I got to watch him play withWow in the World toys.
And then we got in the car,drove to New York City and went
to a Wow in the World live eventand just got to watch him with
(23:18):
awe watching his favorite hostson stage.
So it really was special towitness everything that the show
has done for this little boyand his family and then the
hundreds of families that werein the audience that also were
experiencing it too.
It was, you know.
It was just a great day, reallyexciting to to see that you
(23:42):
know again the fandom and how itgives back to the fans, the
podcast fans, in real time, andso I have a video from that
event and I will share that atPodcast Movement.
I'm so excited for everyone tosee it.
Sam Sethi (23:55):
Brilliant.
Now look, if everyone wants togo and find more about Edison
Research, go and find more aboutthe Infinite Dial or this
fandom report, where would theygo, megan?
Megan Lazovic (24:05):
Edisonresearchcom , and because social media is so
disjointed, look on everyplatform for us.
We're there.
Look for us.
Sam Sethi (24:14):
I think it's going to you know, like you have with
podcasting, wherever you getyour podcast, we have to have
wherever you get your socialmedia is the next state, right?
Megan Lazovick (24:23):
Right, yeah, find us on edisonresearchcom and
sign up for our weeklynewsletter.
You can find a link to sign upon edisonresearchcom and sign up
for our weekly newsletter.
You can find a link to sign upon edisonresearchcom as well,
because we really do make aneffort to deliver never before
seen data every Wednesday inyour inbox.
Sam Sethi (24:43):
Megan, thank you so much.
Thank you for the infinite dial.
Announcer (24:45):
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Get updated every day.
Subscribe to our newsletter atpodnewsnet.
Megan Lazovick (24:52):
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Sam Sethi (00:07):
I'm joined today by a friend of the show.
Her name's Megan Lazovic.
She is the Edison Research VicePresident.
You may have seen her recentlyhosting the Infinite Dial 2025
with James Cridland.
Megan, hello, how are you?
Megan Lazovick (00:21):
Hi, sam, I'm great Thanks for having me.
Sam Sethi (00:24):
What a great job.
Well done to you and to Jameson the presentation.
It was really insightful, andwhat I'd love to do today is now
start to unpack some of that.
Now you've had time todecompress, I guess, from having
to put it out there.
It'd be lovely to go throughsome of the highlights with you
and get your further thoughtsreally.
So, first of all, let's startoff with Infinite Dial.
(00:46):
How long has it been going?
Megan Lazovick (00:48):
So it is the 27th year of the study and it
was started by Edison President,larry Rosen and the team back
then.
And I actually gave a shout outto Pierre Bovard who is, with
Cumulus, one of the sponsors ofthe report, but he really is the
one who came to Larry way backthen to talk about internet
(01:09):
radio and they wanted to get asense of how Americans are using
it.
And we're so lucky that we'vebeen able to find sponsors for
the studies for 27 years sowe've been able to measure that
growth over time and all of thedigital audio consumption and
other consumer behaviors overthat time.
Sam Sethi (01:28):
You've also grown the infinite dial to be in other
countries as well.
Where are the infinite dials?
Megan Lazovick (01:34):
We have many different infinite dials, not
necessarily consistent everyyear in every country.
We've done Germany, we've doneSouth Africa, australia.
That one is coming up actually.
I don't know if We've doneSouth Africa, australia.
That one is coming up actually.
I don't know if we'veofficially announced it, but you
can look for that one this year.
We've done New Zealand, manyyears ago, I think, we did
(01:54):
Ireland, uk.
So really we're trying to getit anywhere we can.
Ideally we can get to a placewhere we're doing it every
single year in every country.
So we can get the same benefitsthat we do with the US study,
where we see year after yearconsistency and we're able to
see how habits have grown.
Sam Sethi (02:14):
But it's also nice if we can only do the study every
two years to look at consumerbehaviors that way, so the study
highlights critical insightsinto podcast consumption, online
audio trends, in-car audiousage, smart speaker usage,
social media behaviours andother digital media.
Now, what was the big highlightOne that James, I think,
(02:37):
highlighted on Pod News Dailywas that podcasting has gone
mainstream.
Over 50% of people now areconsuming or listening to a
podcast.
Is that the big takeaway foryou from the report, or was
there something else that youthought?
No, that was not the bigtakeaway, James.
This is what the big takeawayis.
Megan Lazovick (02:57):
Well, the big takeaway is up.
Things are up.
Digital consumption is up, butespecially podcast consumption
is up, and that's the thing thateveryone is holding their
breath for every single year.
You know I have reportersmessaging me.
Can you just tell me, is itgoing to be up?
You don't have to give me thenumber Is it going to be up?
(03:17):
So that was the great news, thatevery year we've previously
reported podcast listening.
That podcast listening is nowup 70% of Americans have
listened to a podcast.
That's up from previous years.
And of course, the exciting bitof this year is that we didn't
just measure listening, we alsoasked about watching podcasts,
(03:39):
and 51% of Americans havewatched a podcast.
So you know the majority ofAmericans are consuming podcasts
through video.
And then when you sort of rollup that information and look at
the combined consumption figures, we have an even higher jump
73% of Americans have consumed apodcast either through audio or
video.
(03:59):
So it's pretty much up any wayyou look at it.
If you're just looking at audio, we see increase.
If you roll in those videonumbers, you see even more of an
increase, which is exciting foreveryone in the space.
They want to be able to saylook how much we've grown.
Sam Sethi (04:13):
Yeah, and one of the things in the report is that
YouTube is a service used mostoften to listen to podcasts,
which, again, given that they'veonly gone into the market, that
was also a staggering standoutfor me.
Megan Lazovick (04:26):
Well, of course, podcasts have been on YouTube
for many years.
And actually, sam, I shouldtell you I know that you're
looking at it from the tech sideI'm always looking at it from
the consumer side.
While I do work with thesurveys and the quantitative
research, I spend a lot of mytime in qualitative research,
where I'm talking to real peopleabout their consumption.
(04:47):
And you ask a real person abouttheir consumption to podcasts,
they say, oh, yeah, I've beenlistening to podcasts or I've
been watching this podcast onYouTube for years.
So the consumers don'tnecessarily think about the tech
and the networks and all ofthat.
They don't see it the same waythat people in the industry do.
So we say, oh, youtube just gotin the space, or they finally
(05:10):
just talked about it in theiryearly meeting.
But no, they've been in thespace because that's where
people are.
They're heavily using YouTubefor so many different parts of
their life, so it makes sensethat they're also consuming
podcast content through YouTube.
Sam Sethi (05:25):
So I love the fact that everything's up.
But looking back over the lastsix, seven months, maybe even
the last couple of years, wetalk about a number of
redundancies within the industry.
We talk about the fact thatadvertising revenue is not going
across that 2 billion threshold.
How do we equate the two,between a growing audience
that's listening and yet adeclining industry in terms of
(05:49):
the number of people?
So where do we balance thosetwo parts of the conversation?
Megan Lazovick (05:54):
I mean there's an ebb and flow in every part of
business and adjustment,readjustment, and I'm sorry I
can't necessarily speak to allof that again because I'm so in
the consumer world.
But we do know the opportunityis there and hopefully having
these new numbers can help theindustry prove their case, prove
(06:16):
that people are consuming, thatpeople are getting the
messaging and that it's reallyvaluable messaging.
And one of the other studies Iknow we'll get to later the
fandom phenomenon does talkabout the amazing relationship
that listeners have withpodcasts and how much they value
messaging through thosepodcasts.
(06:36):
So the opportunity isabsolutely there and it's
growing because more and morepeople are entering the space
every day.
So how the industry harnessesthat, I can't help you there,
I'm sorry.
The opportunity is there.
That's what you guys have tofigure out.
Sam Sethi (06:51):
Okay Now, one of the other things that's quite
interesting was car audiocontinues to grow.
Why is that?
Are we all coming out of COVID?
Is this just going back towhere it was pre-COVID, or is
this a growth beyond what wasthere before?
Megan Lazovick (07:03):
So I think it has less to do with COVID and
more to do with the adoption oftechnology in the car.
Infinite Dial has been showinggrowth in digital audio usage
year after year after year, very, very fast on mobile devices et
cetera, but the car environmentmoves so much slower.
People own their car for 10years, so even though that
(07:25):
technology is out there, they'renot adopting it as quickly as
they do in other parts of theirlives.
So the exciting part here thatwe're seeing in some of the data
points about automotive phoneintegration system is that we're
finally reaching a tippingpoint where more than a third of
Americans have these systemsand use these systems in their
(07:47):
cars.
So people are hooking theirphone into Apple CarPlay, into
Android Auto.
That is changing consumptionbehaviors in the car and it's
making so much easier for themto take their behaviors
listening to their podcasts,listening to their music
services that they wouldnormally do outside and bringing
that into the car.
Sam Sethi (08:06):
Are we then seeing when you talk about audio
consumption overall, are we thenseeing people's attention and
time that they have availableincreasing with podcasting, but
does that mean they'redecreasing with radio?
Megan Lazovick (08:19):
Radio is still very strong in the car and the
study, infinite Dial, did notmeasure it in that way, so I
can't answer that question.
But our Cherivere studymeasures overall habits and time
spent listening.
Infinite Dial is more about thereach how many people are doing
these behaviors.
Cherivere talks about theamount of time that people are
spending and so that definitelysubscribers have answers to all
(08:43):
of those questions both insideand out of the car.
Sam Sethi (08:47):
So when will the next share of ear report drop?
Megan Lazovick (08:50):
So Share of Ear is a quarterly subscription
study from Edison Research, soall of our subscribers have
access all of the time and getupdates on that data every
quarter.
But we do release tidbits foreveryone else every now and then
.
If you subscribe to Edison'sWeekly Insights that's our
(09:11):
weekly newsletter that drops onWednesdays we often provide free
data from Share of Year, so itisn't one report per se.
But subscribe to Edison WeeklyInsights and you'll get data on
Share of Year, and actually Ithink we do have an in-car Share
of Year tidbit coming.
So subscribe now and maybeyou'll see something soon.
Sam Sethi (09:33):
Now this is, as you said, the overall consumption in
audio as well, not just purelyin podcasting.
But you're also looking atsocial media.
You're looking at TV.
You know YouTube have talkedabout their primary platform is
now going to be TV, which is forme very weird because I've
never really looked at YouTubeon a TV.
Again, that's what people aretelling you.
(09:54):
But social media itself?
Where are you seeing thechanges occurring there?
What's happening with people'sbehaviours?
Megan Lazovick (10:03):
Well, can I tell you just related to Infinite
Dial, anecdotally, we used tohave lots of live conversation
on Twitter.
Everyone used to watch InfiniteDial and use the hashtag and
talk on Twitter and social mediausage has been a lot more
disjointed.
You know, there's a big loss tothe X platform.
(10:24):
People have moved to otherplatforms and for the webinar
itself it was great.
All of our viewers wereactually chatting in the Zoom
platform to each other becausethere wasn't one platform that
we were all together.
So it was nice for the webinar.
I enjoyed seeing everyonechatting, but it's also
frustrating that there doesn'tseem to be one platform that we
(10:47):
were all on.
Of course there's the metaplatforms Facebook, instagram.
They're really dominating thespace.
But Infinite Dial and, I think,the podcast world when we're
talking about more businessstuff where has that landed?
I'm not necessarily postingabout Infinite Dial on my
Facebook, so it's veryinteresting.
(11:07):
The space and the Infinite Dialdoes show all of the changes
and where people have left, whatplatforms are growing.
And actually my favoritequestion from that section was
about TikTok, because we werefielding the study in early
January when everyone thoughtTikTok was going to go away and
we wondered what would happen.
Where would people go?
So we actually added thatquestion in the study.
(11:30):
If TikTok were to be banned inthe US, which one social network
service would you use mostoften?
So we got to that hypotheticalanswer and most people said that
they would go to Instagram orFacebook.
But it did vary by age.
So the younger people were morelikely to choose Instagram,
older people were more likely tochoose Facebook.
(11:51):
But there was a good cohortacross all generations that said
they would use YouTube andYouTube Shorts.
Sam Sethi (11:56):
Yeah, james was laughing about Mastodon didn't
really get a mention in there.
It was like at the bottom,bringing it all up, is Mastodon?
Yeah, I think it's verytechnical and very geeky and
that's where we all hang out.
But I think Blue Sky seems, formy anecdotal friends, to be the
one that everyone seems to benow regravitating towards.
And then the other one I wonderwhether you would do it next
(12:18):
time you do a report, whetheryou would do it on YouTube with
the live chat, because I've beenwatching a lot of political
podcasts and a lot of sportspodcasts are using the YouTube
platform to do live video andusing the super chats and the
chats down the side as theirmechanism of getting their
(12:39):
community to gravitate and talk.
Megan Lazovick (12:41):
Yeah, we probably should dig more into
YouTube next year, but I willsay this is why this research is
so important because peopleforget how their world is so
different from others.
In your space, everyone isusing blue sky.
I'm on blue sky too, but whenwe looked at the data, we saw
(13:04):
that it was very different.
We looked at Republicans versusDemocrat and blue sky was way
heavier among Democrats than itwas Republicans.
So it's like everyone has theirlittle bubbles.
If it was called red sky, theRepublicans would have gone
Democrats than it wasRepublicans.
So it's like everyone has theirlittle bubbles.
Sam Sethi (13:16):
If it was called Red Sky, the Republicans would have
gone there.
Because it was called Blue Sky,the Republicans couldn't go
there.
Megan Lazovick (13:22):
I didn't even make that connection, but very
funny.
Sam Sethi (13:25):
So will you be doing this same presentation at
Podcast Movement in a couple ofweeks time, or even next week?
Gosh, next week.
Megan Lazovick (13:33):
No Infinite Dial lives on the internet for all
to see however many times they'dlike, but I will be presenting
the fandom phenomenon.
That's a study that we didjointly with Wondery and Zensu,
and I'm really excited to talkabout how much people love
podcasting and how muchpodcasting loves them back, what
(13:57):
it gives to them in their lives, and all of the different ways
that podcast enhances people'slives.
Sam Sethi (14:03):
Well, let's talk about that report.
I was really interested in theoutcome of that report.
You sort of touched on it thatthere is a parasocial
relationship between the fan andthe creator.
Is this something that wasunexpected, or do we not know
this already?
And if we know now that thereis that relationship, how can
(14:23):
the creator enhance thatrelationship with their fan then
so no, it was not a surprise.
Megan Lazovick (14:28):
We already knew that there was something really
special about the connectionbetween a podcast consumer and
the show.
We already knew that there wasthis level of fandom out there
and from previous research weknew that people were more
likely to trust the messagingthat came from a host if they
(14:49):
were a fan.
So we already knew somethingwas special there.
But the intention of the studywas to really break it apart and
understand it a little bit more, to understand all of the
different ways that fandomenhances a person's life.
People talk about fandom in somany different ways fans of
artists, fans of sports, wherepeople have this crazy love for
(15:10):
something, where it's not just,oh, I like it.
It's like becomes a part oftheir personality, it becomes a
way that they see themselves,and that exists in podcasts too.
Sam Sethi (15:23):
So is it a funnel effect?
Is it that you start off with atangential relationship you
might have just heard of thispodcast.
Then you take five or sixepisodes to gain a relationship
with this podcast and then youmove down the funnel.
You now are fully engaged.
So is it a state of mind thatyou become a fandom?
(15:44):
Is it a badge of honor that youreach, or is it day one you can
be in the fandom?
Megan Lazovick (15:49):
It's not necessarily a certain path for
everyone.
Everyone has their own path tofandom.
You know, some people become asuper fan of a podcast because
they already love the topic orthey already love the
personality.
Actually, you know, amy Poehlerjust came out with her podcast
and I've loved her forever.
She's released three episodes.
(16:10):
I'm already a fan of herpodcast.
So there are different pathsand there are sort of and that's
one of the things that we triedto do with this study sort of
understanding how listenersbecome fans.
There are kind of fourdifferent end points.
There's sort of the connectionthat stems from feeling like
they're friends with the host.
71% of fans say that they feellike they're friends with the
(16:34):
host.
So it's connection-driven.
It could also beidentity-driven.
One of the people we conducted,in addition to a survey, we
also conducted in-personinterviews.
One of the people we spoke tosaid I think podcasts helped me
see myself more clearly.
They've helped me understandmyself.
So there's this underlyingconnection with identity with
podcasts.
(16:54):
They can also become a fanthrough emotional connection.
Someone said podcasts help mebe more productive, they help me
regulate my attitude.
So or they make me laugh.
They 71% said.
Of the fans, 71% said they arefans because podcasts help them
escape real life.
(17:15):
So there's like this emotionalconnection.
And then, finally, there's thesense of community.
That's also one of the fourprimary drivers for fandom 62%
are fans because they help themfeel like they're a part of
something bigger than themselves.
So I am a fan of this podcastcalled.
Sam Sethi (17:35):
You were about to say Pod News Weekly, weren't you?
Megan Lazovick (17:37):
Pod News Weekly.
Yes, when I meet another PodNews Weekly fan, we go crazy
because we're like, oh my gosh,you listen to Sam and James too.
You know there is that sense.
It's not just you, it's biggerthan you.
So those are four differentexamples, four different touch
points that get people intofandom, that sort of drive, the
(17:59):
fandom.
And it's great for podcastersto understand all of these
different endpoints, to betterunderstand what they're doing
well, and that's great forbrands, too, to sort of
understand the different waysthat they can connect with
consumers through podcasts.
Sam Sethi (18:17):
So you talked about connectivity and community.
You talked about fan-to-fancommunity and you talked about
even the Infinite Dial.
Used to use the back channel ofX for conversation, but you
couldn't do that.
So is it beholden to podcastapps now to provide better
community functions?
Because podcasting to me in thepodcasting 1.0 type arena, you
(18:40):
know the first iteration, it wasa very singular act of
listening to your podcast, toyour headphones, to your dog
walk, to your car drive, all itseems very singular.
But now, with fandom, you'retalking about expanding that out
to a community of people whoare associated to the single
podcast.
(19:00):
So is it apps need to do abetter job to give that peer to
peer communication?
Megan Lazovick (19:05):
Yeah, I think there's an opportunity there.
It has to be authentic to thepodcast, the podcast host.
If you tend to have fans,listeners, that are already
reaching out to you and eachother, then that's an
opportunity to interact withthem and give them more, because
we do know that those fans wantmore or appreciate more, but
(19:28):
every podcast is different andthey provide different things to
their consumers, so it has tomake sense for your product.
Sam Sethi (19:37):
I think again looking at YouTube, because you know,
it's one of those platforms thatI sort of dismissed when they
first announced they're doingpodcasts.
Oh, there we go.
And when I actually look atwhat they're doing, they're
doing a damn fine job because,as we talked about, live with
super chats, that's monetization, that's community fan to fan,
that is interaction with thehosts.
(19:58):
And then you look at the newversion they've released around
member access to exclusivecontent and they do merch.
Megan Lazovick (20:27):
They do merch.
I mean they especially ifpeople are already on the
platform people are usingYouTube, people are using
Spotify, et cetera thenproviding them those touch
points on the platform that theyalready use makes sense.
Sam Sethi (20:42):
Does okay.
So from a business point ofview now, does a fan or a super
fan generate significantly morerevenue for the creator?
Are they the people who buyyour t-shirts?
Are they the people who go toyour live concert?
Are they the people who will,in the podcasting 2.0 world,
give you a tip in micropayments?
(21:04):
Is that what we are trying toidentify, the super fans within
our fandom?
Megan Lazovick (21:11):
Well, yes, they absolutely are helping the show
in many ways.
Podcast fans are so emotionallyinvested in shows and hosts
they love that they often lookfor ways to engage with fandom
beyond just listening to thepodcast or watching the podcast.
43% of fans engage withpodcast-originated IP through
(21:34):
other media, so that couldinclude TV and books.
68% say they have followedtheir favorite pod on social
media.
So they are looking for thesetouch points outside of just
consuming the podcast.
Sam Sethi (21:49):
Cool.
So you said you're going to bepresenting this at Podcast
Movement.
What day are you presenting itso somebody can go along?
Megan Lazovick (21:58):
Yes, april 1st.
I probably should know my timeslot.
I think it's in the afternoonat some point.
You look that up for me, sam.
Sam Sethi (22:05):
Make sure it's after 12 o'clock, otherwise it's an
April Fool.
Yes.
Megan Lazovick (22:10):
Yes, I'm really excited the white paper is
already out, so if you'reinterested in this data, you can
look it up and review some ofthe stats.
But I'm especially excited toshow it at Podcast Movement
because I also have videos fromsome of our in-person
observational interviews toshare that were not a part of
(22:31):
the white paper.
This is actually it's been oneof my favorite studies over the
many years I've worked at EdisonResearch, because I got to hang
out with the fans andexperience super special live
podcast experiences with them.
I actually met a young boy inhis family His name was Fox in
New Jersey and he's a Wow in theWorld super fan.
(22:53):
So I met with him in themorning.
We ate breakfast together, heshowed me all of his Wow in the
World books and read all of hisfavorite Wow in the World facts
and I got to watch him play withWow in the World toys.
And then we got in the car,drove to New York City and went
to a Wow in the World live eventand just got to watch him with
(23:18):
awe watching his favorite hostson stage.
So it really was special towitness everything that the show
has done for this little boyand his family and then the
hundreds of families that werein the audience that also were
experiencing it too.
It was, you know.
It was just a great day, reallyexciting to to see that you
(23:42):
know again the fandom and how itgives back to the fans, the
podcast fans, in real time, andso I have a video from that
event and I will share that atPodcast Movement.
I'm so excited for everyone tosee it.
Sam Sethi (23:55):
Brilliant.
Now look, if everyone wants togo and find more about Edison
Research, go and find more aboutthe Infinite Dial or this
fandom report, where would theygo, megan?
Megan Lazovic (24:05):
Edisonresearchcom , and because social media is so
disjointed, look on everyplatform for us.
We're there.
Look for us.
Sam Sethi (24:14):
I think it's going to you know, like you have with
podcasting, wherever you getyour podcast, we have to have
wherever you get your socialmedia is the next state, right?
Megan Lazovick (24:23):
Right, yeah, find us on edisonresearchcom and
sign up for our weeklynewsletter.
You can find a link to sign upon edisonresearchcom and sign up
for our weekly newsletter.
You can find a link to sign upon edisonresearchcom as well,
because we really do make aneffort to deliver never before
seen data every Wednesday inyour inbox.
Sam Sethi (24:43):
Megan, thank you so much.
Thank you for the infinite dial.
Announcer (24:45):
Of course, thanks.
Get updated every day.
Subscribe to our newsletter atpodnewsnet.
Megan Lazovick (24:52):
Tell your friends and grow the show and
support us, and support us.
The Pod News.
Announcer (24:57):
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