February 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Rockie talks about why the new podcast namespace excites her, and how to grow podcasting by making it simpler.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Pod News Weekly Review with Buzzsprout.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We've got a power supporter joining us.
Her name's Rocky Thomas.
She is the Chief StrategyOfficer over at Soundstack.
Rocky hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I'm doing well.
I'm very excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of what you guysdo, so thank you for having me
to be here.
I'm a big fan of what you guysdo, so thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Thank you Now, rocky.
I want to start off with a fewbasic questions.
Okay, so, who or what isSoundstack?
Let's start there.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Soundstack is what we call afull stack audio and service
provider.
We really focus on everythingfrom linear streaming to podcast
creators.
We provide hosting, analytics,ad tech, distribution.
We even have our own contentmanagement solution for
podcasters.
We love all audio, so we doeverything from end to end spec.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So how long have you been with Soundstack?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So I started out with Soundstack in 2018.
Prior to that, I was one of thefirst employees at AdsWiz, and
then I've been in this industrystreaming since 1998.
And I always like to joke I was10 when I started doing this
and actually my first I guess myexperience with streaming was
streaming some local radiostations on Mark Cuban's company
(01:23):
back in the day.
Oh yeah, broadcastcom made melearn how to hate the real media
server, kodak.
And then, through my entirecareer, I started doing ad
insertion client side in 2000with a company called Silicon
Valley and really have been inthe tech side of the audio
business, did a stint in TV forfour years during the recession,
(01:43):
realized I'm not quite prettyenough or speak slow enough for
that industry, so I came backover to audio.
So it's been a great career.
What I love about digital audiois I have a music degree and it
just really speaks to me.
So it's great when one of yourpassions is also a career for
you, and I love how much itchanges.
(02:05):
I know it drives a lot ofpeople crazy, but it is
constantly iterating, whichmakes it really exciting.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Now you mentioned AdWords, but you also worked
with the IAB in the early daysas well.
What were you doing there?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So that's kind of a funny story.
So I started out with the audiocommittees and really trying.
I'm a big fan of creatingstandards in the industry
because I think when we allspeak the same language and
nomenclature it just makes it alot easier for people to buy,
people to understand what'sgoing on and how we could really
develop this industry.
And so it was funny becauseSarah Van Mosel and I decided to
(02:38):
approach the IEB to startpodcasting committees and kind
of branch off a little bit fromthe audio side.
And so she took the businessside and she's like you're geeky
, go take the tech labs.
And I'm like oh, this will begreat.
After two years of a lot ofgreat discussion between a lot
of the people who are still inthere, we finally came to a
consensus of our first standard.
And wow, it was tough Becauseit wasn't that anybody was
(03:02):
really doing anything wrong.
It's that we all were justmeasuring like uniques and
everything just slightlydifferent, which made it really
hard and everyone had a reallygood reason of why they were
doing it this way.
So we launched out our firststandard and honestly I thought
for sure it was going to be likea short-term deal because we
started seeing dynamic adinsertion kind of really start
coming to the forefront, and themajor reason we are having
(03:24):
those download measurementstandards at the IEB Tech Labs
is so we can count ads that areembedded within the download.
So I just thought it was goingto be a short-term issue.
Fast forward about 10 years.
We are still talking about it,and I think that there's a lot
of challenges with an audio.
One is that it's prettyindependent.
(03:44):
Still, even on the streamingside, we have a lot of different
ways to approach problems, froma coding to open and closed
gardens, and then also, I think,the other challenges,
everything from content taxonomylike are we all going to just
use Apple forever?
How are we going to be able todefine this?
I mean, there are so manyinherent kind of challenges that
(04:08):
IAB are trying to overcome.
Then you add layers ofprogrammatic, and that makes it
even a little bit morechallenging.
What is interesting, though, isthat we're seeing that we have
a really we're very similar toCTV, which at first I kind of
bristled against because I'mlike I don't want to be like CTV
, but the nice thing is thatwhen you have similarities with
(04:30):
a very large part of theindustry, it does make it easier
for buyers to understand thenomenclature that we're talking
about, so their challenges aresometimes ours, which is not bad
.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Now that's one thing that you and James, when you
were in Venice, were talkingabout was the problem with the
way that podcasting and buyingof media is probably talking
Swahili.
The two parts are not talkingright.
So what do we need to do inpodcasting to make media buying
(05:01):
easier?
Because Tom Webster recentlysaid that you know, or it was
the media leader that said thatpodcasts have a $74 billion
opportunity in advertising, butwe're only getting about 0.2% of
all ad spend, although we areseeing the growth rapidly of
more and more people coming intothe podcasting space as
listeners.
So we've got more listeners,we've got more engagement, and
(05:25):
yet we are still getting a micro, micro amount of the
advertising spend.
What can we do to change, rocky?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You're right, it's so shocking I like to say.
You know, podcasting is themost popular and one of the most
consumed, underbought modernmedias I've ever run across and
it's really frustrating.
And I said that in Venice.
I'm like it's just it's toohard to buy, and some people
took a little bit of bristle tothat.
I'm like, well, let me rephraseit, it's too hard to buy at
scale for large brands.
(05:54):
And I think one of thechallenges is what we're just
talking about is consistentmeasurement across the side.
So today we're getting bought,basically because you know we're
getting bought basicallybecause we're getting the extra
10% buys that are happening atthe buy level and we're not
actually part of what we callsales planning right now.
And that's just not podcasting,that's actually digital audio
(06:16):
as well if you look at it from astreaming standpoint, and we're
never going to get more thanour 5% or 10% afterthought until
we are actually part of themedia plant's initial planning
time, when they're looking attheir year-long strategy.
We're talking millions uponmillions of dollars and right
now, what we're focused on andwe are working with partnerships
which will probably be comingout in the next couple months of
(06:38):
how to get a measurement intothose platforms so then those
buyers can actually identify allright, how many like old school
stuff, like gross rating points, which some of them still use.
You know how, if I have 10 GRPsin New York, how can I bring
podcasts in there to basicallytarget those listeners within
New York and how can webasically keep on expanding it?
Because at the end of the day,I don't, I don't, I don't blame
(07:00):
the demand or the advertisingside.
It's really hard to beswivel-chairing.
I call between a whole bunch ofdifferent platforms to buy a
very large media spend and so Ithink really gosh, it's not like
a broken record.
But it comes back tomeasurement.
I mean, I would say that ourbiggest challenge and our
biggest opportunity in thisindustry right now is
measurement and I would say onthe publisher side is also
(07:23):
making sure we're consistentlypassing the correct signals to
those buyers.
And that can mean everythingfrom the type of content it is.
I would say brand safety is notso much of an issue, and I say
that just because most of thepodcasts out there are pretty
brand safe and if a podcast useris going to go listen to that
(07:43):
certain type of podcast, it's auser-initiated action.
So I kind of look at it as ifyou want if an advertiser wants
to target that, that's whatthey're going to get, and also
dynamic ad insertion plays intothat as well.
So really my goal this year isto figure out how we can get a
measurement of podcasts into theplanning tools that buyers are
using today podcast into theplanning tools that buyers are
(08:06):
using today.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Okay, so we have to change on our side, but they
have to understand the platformsas well and get the tools for
it.
Now, bumper, which I love it'sa lovely agency came out of
Pacific Content.
They talk about a download notbeing a listen and a listen
being how long, right?
So James and I talk about veryconsistently, listen time,
percent completed, as twometrics that need to be done in
podcasting.
Is that what the buyers want?
(08:31):
Because that's what Spotify andYouTube can give them.
First party data which says,yes, rocky listened to this
episode for 18 minutes, which is42% of that podcast.
Right, and Rocky's based here,here and here.
Female gender, demographicright, and Rocky's based here,
here and here female gender,demographic right, and that's
what the buyers want.
So what has to change?
Because at the moment, nothingseems to change.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, I kind of look at the buy industry for podcasts
in two different buckets.
So the buyers are going to bebuying at scale or typically be
transacting programmatically,and that's not just you, not
just open bidding.
That's what we callprogrammatic guarantee, which is
essentially just like executingan insertion order you still do
a handshake, you stillnegotiate the rates, it's just
(09:14):
you're not the one who'strafficking in it.
The demand side, or theadvertiser, is actually
trafficking that, and that'sgoing to be fueled by dynamic ad
insertion and when you get that, you're going to get the
impression counting, you'regoing to see the completion,
you're going to have portals,all the loveliness that they
absolutely want.
I am still a huge fan of what wecall baked in or personal
(09:34):
endorsements, or live reads orfake reads, or that whole
category of direct advertising,or I'd even say within the
representation firms that areout there that represent those
podcasters.
Because the reason is is thatdirect really does work, because
you're able to really craftthat creative.
And when I first I sold radioin my career, I sold air, and so
(09:54):
I didn't have a list, and backthen all you had was yellow
pages and you used to takecategories, and so my shtick was
that I would interview everyon-air primetime, on-air talent,
find out where the eight slept,lived, and then I would go to
those places and do personalendorsements.
I find that when they'realready passionate about the
brand, it's crazy and reallywe're getting to an area because
(10:17):
of all the privacy issues andthe data issues the trend right
now and it's pro and con.
I'm not sure if I stand in onecamp or other.
It's really about outcomes andI think the advertisers are
truly looking at the outcomes oftheir advertising, which really
bodes well for podcasts,because we've been so DR direct
respond focused for so long.
It's really trying to tie thosetwo together For many years.
(10:38):
I tried to launch a programmaticmarketplace at AdsWiz called
Podwave 10 years ago and I hadnational public media.
I had great advertisers readyto go.
I could not get the podcastpublishers to come on board yet.
It was just way, way too soon,and now I'm seeing the inverse.
I think a lot of podcastersthink that programmatic should
be 100% of their advertising andsometimes that could work.
(11:00):
When I say programmatic, I'mtalking more open, not really
programmatic guarantee, and Ibelieve that you should always
try to have a direct or arepresentation business working
with a podcaster and then theprogrammatic if it's open
bidding, it's kind of like it'sthe extra fill, the yield
optimization you should be doing.
It's symbiotic.
They should really try not tobe one or the other and I think
(11:20):
that we have to think of it likethat, especially as new
opportunities come up.
And I think that we have tothink of it like that especially
as new opportunities come upwith I'm a big fan of possible
hyper-local coming up here and Ithink there's great
opportunities across the boundsfor podcasters.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, given your radio background and radio, I think,
has 15 minutes in the hour ofads, you know saturation, we're
not there with podcasting.
Now again, tom Webster's talkedabout three ads per podcast, an
hour podcast.
Do you see, in 2025, peopleupping that to five, six and
(11:52):
competing with the saturation ofradio?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
I do and I wish they wouldn't.
And I am a hobby economistbecause I'm not trained, but I
do.
That's my thing is.
I like to research economicsand I think we're kind of doing
a slight disservice when youkeep on adding more spots to an
ad break.
The problem is that you'readding more supply.
(12:17):
My old local sales manager isin the back of my head saying
you know, basically constrictthe supply so you can increase
the rate on the demand side ofit.
I know that's easier said thandone when everybody else is
opening up all their spot setsand they're getting more money.
But I think what happens is andI'm noticing it more myself as I
listen to such a wide varietyof podcasts across the whole
ecosystem is that it is going toimpact how people are going to
(12:40):
want to listen and when theyknow that you have a two-minute
spot break, they're going totake out their phone and they're
going to skip, versus having a30 or a 60-second spot break.
What is going to be yourinfluence of pain?
Are you going to go ahead andopen it up?
And I think when we keep thebreaks tight, I'm a big fan of a
15-second ad.
I know that's really tight, butI find that we really have an
(13:02):
ADHD transactional brainnowadays and I think that people
really like to have concisemessaging and I think that's one
of my biggest challenges withsome endorsement or live reads
is the guys don't hold tight tolike a clock when they're doing
their reads, and I've heard liketwo minute Casper ads.
Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh,guys, you've got to keep it
(13:23):
tight.
And then also hearing the samebullet point creatives going
over and over.
The beautiful thing about livereads is they're not supposed to
burn out on creative andthey're starting to burn out and
that's where I think it's anopportunity to mix up the
creative, have a differentchallenge, find out the first
demo, the second demo, thetertiary demo.
Make sure you're making amessage towards that, just
(13:43):
because, at the end of the day,it increases your outcome, which
is going to increase theability for you to get bought
again.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Do you see AI ads being a better way of then
staying within those boundaries?
Create the script, have it AIdriven, change the voices, make
it a little bit different, butyou don't have the fallibility
of humans who are going to thendrift over in your amount.
You said that Casper mattressad goes from 15 seconds to two
minutes.
That's a bad ad, but an AI isnever going to drift, so do you
(14:10):
go back to that format?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, I think the way I look at AI voicing because I
almost call it like dynamic,creative to some extent is I
think there's great applicationsfor it for certain types of
advertisers and certain types ofoutcomes that people want.
I'm never a person who's goingto be like I'm cut and dry on it
.
I think every situation isdifferent.
I do think that we should betesting it because I'm curious.
(14:33):
And then also, how do peoplefeel if it's the announcers or
the talent's voice beingsynthesized into AI?
I also look at it from adifferent point of view.
Would it be exciting if you hada global brand that you could
actually switch to the correctlanguage for that listener?
I think that could be possiblyexciting.
Again, it'd have to definitelybe a larger global brand or
(14:55):
brand that's in that country,but I think there's definitely
applications for it.
I don't think we should be toomyopic to say that, oh, it's
going to kill the talent.
I don't know.
I think there's room.
We're such an emerging stillindustry.
I think right now we need to betesting and seeing what's
really working the best forserving not only the publishers
but also in creators as well asthe advertisers in demand.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, we will see what happens.
Now one of the other areas whyare you against it?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I'm kind of curious what's your view on it, sam yeah
.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I think one of the trust points of podcasting is
the host.
You tune into the regular hostand you build I think Alberto
from rsscom call it parasocial aone-way relationship with the
host, because you hear so muchabout their life through the
form of the podcast, but youthen form a picture around that
(15:43):
person, but they don't know whoyou are as a listener.
Let's say so.
You have a trust relationshipwith that person.
So if you then break that trustrelationship with an AI, I
think that's going to sort ofjuxtapose against the listener.
Oh, that's not what I expected.
No, I'm not sure.
I'm comfortable, I don't know.
Again, I don't know either.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I think it's going to be interesting.
I think also that it reallydepends on the type of flavor of
your podcast, like I thinkcertain ads are, you know, more
accepted on certain types of howthe flavor and the flow of a
podcast is.
I think it's always reallyjarring when you're, you know,
having it's an interview.
It's very chilled and all of asudden a FanDuel ad comes in and
(16:22):
kind of yells at you.
So I think it really comes downto the tonality of the podcast.
So that's why I'm never reallycut and dry on everything and
some podcasts the hosts justdon't have that type.
They're more informational,they're more educational.
I'm thinking of some of myeconomic podcasts I listen to.
I don't feel like I have arelationship with the host as
much as I have a relationshipwith the content that they
(16:43):
provide and I have a respect forthe content they provide.
So it's a little different.
I think it's tough, right,because there's so many
different flavors of podcasts,right?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So the one thing and we won't be able to go into a
great deal of depth here becauseit's too out there for the
moment but one of my beliefs isthat the reason that users skip
ads and that's who theadvertiser wants to reach right
at the end of the day is becausetheir time and attention is not
valued by the ad that'sdelivered.
(17:13):
It's either contextually out ofsort or the ad is just not in
line with what the content isthat they're listening to and
actually most of the time you'regoing, actually I don't want to
listen to an ad at all and thepodcaster doesn't care because
they've been paid, but the onlyperson who's not getting the
value is the advertiser, whichis why I go back to how long did
(17:34):
the person listen to the ad andhow much did they complete the
ad.
So I built a model I'm notgoing to go into today for true
fans that actually measures howlong someone listens to an ad
and their engagement level, andthat's, I think, going to be a
much more powerful way.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
But, as I said so well, on the dynamic side we've
been counting quartiles for 10years, much like the video side,
so we're able to see whensomebody you know bails out 25,
50 or 75% within like a 30, 15or 60 second ad.
I would say that I think it'sexciting.
I think the challenge comes inis that you know, in our
(18:08):
openness that I look becausewe're very open web, we believe
in free media and open standardsand we always have been a sound
stack because we areindependent, we're bootstrapped,
we're not owned by a mediacompany.
We get to build whatever wewant to, which is challenging
and fun at the same time.
But I really think that it'salways tough when you don't have
control of the client.
I'll be honest with you.
That's why we started dynamicad insertion in the beginning,
(18:29):
because back in the day we hadto fire a banner ad to count the
audio ad impression, which isreally killing my soul because
it was like the advertiser wasgetting a two for one impression
at that time.
And so that's really where westarted doing server-side ad
insertion on that side so we canaccurately count, because we
didn't have control of Apple, wedidn't have control of the
client.
It's, I mean, it goes back tostreaming audio with Icecast,
(18:51):
shellcast, shellcast, yp, backin the day TuneIn.
I mean you can go through allthe aggregation apps, the
aggregation apps.
You just don't have controlover them.
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We've been playing around with those chapter tags.
So we'll see.
Okay, let's hit a couple ofquestions.
So, given you talked about open, given you talked about you
know what you're doing withchapters.
Where are you with podcastingto the O?
There was a podcast out todayfrom Mark Askwith which was
podcasting to the O has failed,and he openly admits that was
clickbait, but it was also avery interesting.
(19:23):
Okay, let's throw theconversation back open.
Has it succeeded?
Has it failed?
Has Soundstack adopted it?
And if they have, great.
And if they haven't, why not?
I mean, where do you sit asstrategy director on this?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I love a lot of the elements within Podcast 2.0.
I think the challenge withPodcast 2.0 is there are so many
options that you can do inthere and the way that we
approach it.
As Soundstack, we definitelyadopt some of the elements and
tags.
It really comes down to whatour publishers are asking us to
implement.
You literally have implementedalmost all of them, which is
(19:58):
incredibly impressive.
I have to say it's incrediblyimpressive.
I would say, obviously thetranscripts, the person, the
location ones, because thatmakes a lot of sense.
A lot of our publishers alsotend to be broadcasters or they
tend to be podcast networks.
And then also I wouldn't sayit's a secret, but actually it
kind of is we actually provide alot of the delivery for some
(20:18):
people who would be consideredcompetitive to soundstack.
That I can't talk about becausethat's how we've grown as a
company.
We actually provide deliveryand hosting for other companies.
But the one I'm excited about is, you know, the live item tag.
I mean that's the cause.
I see that as really like thecool thing about merging
possibilities between the linearas well as the on-demand and
(20:40):
and doing live events, and Imean this is like.
This is where it gets reallycool for like local sports and
just it's just.
This is like a kind of a geekaudio girl's dream come true,
and so I, to answer yourquestion, do I think the podcast
2.0 has failed?
No, I would say that it hasfailed in its focus, and when I
say that is that I think we'd bebetter served if we find a
(21:04):
couple of the tags that arereally going to help.
Either One's going to drivemonetization, maybe for more
transparency within what I callprogrammatic signals.
One's going to help maybe mergethe lit tag between linear and
on-demand.
Maybe one that helps out withmetrics, I think, really
focusing, taking elements of it,the value for value.
One and I know that recentlychanged and I'm still trying to
(21:26):
follow you guys on how, becausewe don't do too much of that
type.
Most of our clients areenterprise clients.
I understand the concept, tipjar and trying to get that in
there, but I'll be honest withyou, I still do the credit cards
with you guys, just because I'mon Pocket Cast, which is, I
feel, like a newer 2.0, but it'sdefinitely not like the True
Fans app or some other stuffthat we have on there.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think I'm equally giddy and excited about Lit as
you are.
One of my predictions for 2025was that it will go big.
Finally, adam and Dave do alive show every Friday night.
Todd Cochran and Rob Greenleedo a live show.
There are many that are doingit.
I think you've seen Netflix getinto NFL.
You've seen Amazon get intofootball and soccer in this
(22:09):
country.
You've seen RSScom nearly gotinto it fully.
They adopted the live tag, butthey didn't put a server
capability, an HLS server or anIcecast server into it, and I
think that's what's missingright now.
I think I've talked to Jamesabout the field construct for
the live item tag, start time,end time, name of URL for the
(22:32):
server.
All that is too geeky for theaverage user.
They need to just simply go toa host and go.
I want to go live a bit likeStreamYard did or a bit like
Riverside a host and go.
I want to go live a bit likestreamyard did or a bit like
riverside does.
Right, I want to go live, clickthat button and in the
background, it does all thegeeky stuff for you.
They don't need to know how todo that, and so I'm really
hoping hosts will start toprovide their clients, the
(22:55):
podcasters, with that one clickaccess to live, and then I think
you'll see more people adoptingit.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Well, and that's why I think that Soundstack is
really.
This is why we get real excitedabout it, because this is
really in our sweet spot,because we know the Icecast
Showcast.
We just launched our own streamserver with HLS and we're still
iterating and developing onstreaming protocols and we just
look at it as for efficiency andhow we can balance out our own
(23:21):
network that we own.
And so we get excited becausewe're finally seeing that we
could really help out theindustry, because we are those
people who are independent whowant to help out creators who
actually have incredible deepknowledge on streaming protocols
.
And I was listening to I thinkit was maybe a podcast 2.0 or
one of them with those guys andI could feel their frustration
(23:43):
of figuring out metadata withinIcecast or Shoutcast.
And you're right, people thinkdigital audio is all the same.
It's not.
It's audio, but the deliverymechanisms are so different.
And how can we at Soundstackhelp bridge that gap a little
bit is something that I'm reallyexcited about and where I'm
working on, because I've been onrevenue forever and I love
making revenue and I love, uh,and I love making publisher
(24:06):
success.
I like paying publishers, I likeand I like seeing them continue
to grow because, I'll be honestwith you, they're the heroes.
If we, if we don't supportpublishers, we don't really have
an industry anymore, and Idon't think people kind of think
about that.
We can have an industry that'sbasically driven by the mega
companies and we'll be back towhere radio was, you know, circa
1996.
And I don't think we reallywant that.
(24:26):
I think we want to keepindependent voices thriving and
that's something that we'reexcited about too, because we
want to help out the industrywith our knowledge.
We actually really understandthat and I would say we probably
need a little bit more podcast2.0 people to kind of work with
us so we can figure out how wecan help make it easier because,
you're right, it is deep, geekyyeah, given where sound stack
(24:46):
is, with its radio backgroundand with its podcasting.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So are you saying that you are going to enable
those radio stations to usemedium equals radio for being a
little bit techie for a second,but fundamentally they will then
have another channel to market?
So, as I said, when I had myown radio station, we would do
DAB, but we would do web.
Alexa and lit wasn't around,but we had a shoutcast server
(25:13):
that would broadcast throughthose channels, and all I'm
hoping is that radio stationsand people who run them, like
yourselves, go.
Yeah, no, don't worry, we'regoing to add one more
distribution channel for you.
It's going to be called apodcasting 2.0 or it's going to
be called, just you know, liveitem tag or whatever you want to
call it, and you don't need todo anything.
You need to broadcast whatyou're doing today, your shows,
(25:35):
and we'll distribute it for you.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
That's exactly.
That's exactly.
And then, conversely, we thinkit's really exciting that we've
already done beta tests withpodcast networks of stacking
their content in a linear form.
So not only is it the abilityto go full streaming when you
are going live, but also how canyou archive that.
So I have a lean backexperience.
So and this is not going towork for all podcast creators
Some of them have great,evergreen content that I could
(26:03):
probably listen to how stuffworks for two years and not have
a repeat of their content.
I mean, how gasoline is madedoes not change that much, so I
mean, I think that it reallydepends on it.
But I think it's also reallyexciting because I can start
seeing verticalization.
Then we even know how can wetake music stations.
We have 4500 music uhpublishers on live 365.
(26:23):
How can we get, possibly,podcast content shows within
that streaming, which and thissounds familiar, sam it should,
because it's how radio has beenrunning no, it's what I've been
shouting about.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It's like itication.
Yes, it's like if the contentdoesn't have to be live live, it
can be live schedule, but itcan be recorded into the live
schedule and it's so basic.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
We, we are we are very much the fans of create
something really cool once andlet us help you distribute it as
many different ways as youpossibly can.
I mean it does it's.
I would say that it's not thatfar to think that you know Barn
Talk.
You know, like a podcast group.
It should be in a countrystation on a syndicated time
period, I don't know eighto'clock on a Friday night on the
(27:08):
East Coast.
I mean, it's just like the oldradio tricks that we used to
have for syndicated content.
Why would we not do that?
It's kind of cool.
I would say that probably thatlistener would probably enjoy a
15-minute segment on this, thatprobably that listener would
probably enjoy a 15-minutesegment on this.
So that's why we get realexcited about this, because we
just see it as a way ofcross-pollinating content.
It's not going to be foreverybody and we understand that
.
We're really trying to innovateand iterate on cool things and
(27:31):
we're like, wow, that'd bereally cool.
And people are like, is thatwhat radio used to?
Yeah, it is, but I think theyforgot about this, so we're
going to bring it back up.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, and I think Adam and Dave are very right,
the hyperlocal, as well, isgoing to come back into fashion.
I think that's going to bethrough live item tag.
Yeah, I think there's a lot ofopportunity.
No, I think it's exciting andthen think about the kids.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
We can get involved in this, and that's where I kind
of geek out, because it's likethe Gen Z and Alpha is the ones
that are quite young.
It is really about puttingtheir.
They're almost like microbroadcasters now.
I mean, that's essentially whatTikTok and social is.
So how can we really graspthose people to become the new,
like journalists and like theproducers of the future?
(28:11):
Because I mean, I'm not gettingany younger.
I don't know about you, sam,but it's like that's.
We got to get those folks andthose young people really
excited, and I think you'realways starting to see
excitement.
That's what's so great aboutpodcasting it really does target
younger folks, and so now wejust got to get them creating
and, you know, possiblyparticipate more in our industry
, which will be really fun.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Awesome, I could talk to you all day with Rocky.
Now, look, we'll geek out afterthis show.
Now, rocky, if somebody wantsto find out more about
Soundstack, where would they go?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Soundstackcom.
We're obviously on LinkedIn andall the other social places.
Anyone can reach out to me atRocky R-O-C-K-I-E.
Like the mountains, Rocky atSoundstackcom, and love
collaboration, love talkingabout the industry.
I believe there's really notany one answer.
I think it's all about makingsure that we're all kind of
(29:00):
figuring out the best way pathforward, and I'm excited about
it.
It's a great time to be in thisindustry right now.
We have our challenges, butit's interesting because, just
on the final thought, it's funnybecause everybody you know
wanted to be, you know, reallypopular and mainstream in
podcasts and now that it'shappened, we're having a little
bit of a challenge dealing withour new popularity, which is a
(29:21):
really great problem to have ifyou look at it, you know.
So it's nice to know what yourparents do when you say
podcasting, so it's cool.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I remember when I was an army officer my mom was so
proud and then I said I was anentrepreneur.
One day she was like what thehell's an entrepreneur?
And if she was still alive andI said it was a podcaster, she'd
lose it.
She'd still alive and I said itwas a podcaster, I should lose
it.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
You should have no idea what I did.
Rocky, will we see you inLondon at the London Podcast
Show?
Will we see you in Chicago?
Where are you going to be?
So, yes and yes.
So I am doing a panel or afireside chat with Larry Rosen
from Edison Research, and thenalso I just booked my ticket
yesterday for London, so I willbe in London, which I'm quite
excited about.
Soundsec has been there thepast couple of years.
We're bringing about seven oreight people this year to that
show as well, so that'll beexciting.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Nice, we'll catch up then properly.
Rocky Thomas, thank you so much.
It's been wonderfulinterviewing you.
I had to wait a while, but itwas worth the wait.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Same here.
I really enjoy it.
Thank you for your time andyour support.
The Pod News Weekly Review with Buzzsprout.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We've got a power supporter joining us.
Her name's Rocky Thomas.
She is the Chief StrategyOfficer over at Soundstack.
Rocky hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I'm doing well.
I'm very excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of what you guysdo, so thank you for having me
to be here.
I'm a big fan of what you guysdo, so thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Thank you Now, rocky.
I want to start off with a fewbasic questions.
Okay, so, who or what isSoundstack?
Let's start there.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Soundstack is what we call afull stack audio and service
provider.
We really focus on everythingfrom linear streaming to podcast
creators.
We provide hosting, analytics,ad tech, distribution.
We even have our own contentmanagement solution for
podcasters.
We love all audio, so we doeverything from end to end spec.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So how long have you been with Soundstack?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So I started out with Soundstack in 2018.
Prior to that, I was one of thefirst employees at AdsWiz, and
then I've been in this industrystreaming since 1998.
And I always like to joke I was10 when I started doing this
and actually my first I guess myexperience with streaming was
streaming some local radiostations on Mark Cuban's company
(01:23):
back in the day.
Oh yeah, broadcastcom made melearn how to hate the real media
server, kodak.
And then, through my entirecareer, I started doing ad
insertion client side in 2000with a company called Silicon
Valley and really have been inthe tech side of the audio
business, did a stint in TV forfour years during the recession,
(01:43):
realized I'm not quite prettyenough or speak slow enough for
that industry, so I came backover to audio.
So it's been a great career.
What I love about digital audiois I have a music degree and it
just really speaks to me.
So it's great when one of yourpassions is also a career for
you, and I love how much itchanges.
(02:05):
I know it drives a lot ofpeople crazy, but it is
constantly iterating, whichmakes it really exciting.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Now you mentioned AdWords, but you also worked
with the IAB in the early daysas well.
What were you doing there?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So that's kind of a funny story.
So I started out with the audiocommittees and really trying.
I'm a big fan of creatingstandards in the industry
because I think when we allspeak the same language and
nomenclature it just makes it alot easier for people to buy,
people to understand what'sgoing on and how we could really
develop this industry.
And so it was funny becauseSarah Van Mosel and I decided to
(02:38):
approach the IEB to startpodcasting committees and kind
of branch off a little bit fromthe audio side.
And so she took the businessside and she's like you're geeky
, go take the tech labs.
And I'm like oh, this will begreat.
After two years of a lot ofgreat discussion between a lot
of the people who are still inthere, we finally came to a
consensus of our first standard.
And wow, it was tough Becauseit wasn't that anybody was
(03:02):
really doing anything wrong.
It's that we all were justmeasuring like uniques and
everything just slightlydifferent, which made it really
hard and everyone had a reallygood reason of why they were
doing it this way.
So we launched out our firststandard and honestly I thought
for sure it was going to be likea short-term deal because we
started seeing dynamic adinsertion kind of really start
coming to the forefront, and themajor reason we are having
(03:24):
those download measurementstandards at the IEB Tech Labs
is so we can count ads that areembedded within the download.
So I just thought it was goingto be a short-term issue.
Fast forward about 10 years.
We are still talking about it,and I think that there's a lot
of challenges with an audio.
One is that it's prettyindependent.
(03:44):
Still, even on the streamingside, we have a lot of different
ways to approach problems, froma coding to open and closed
gardens, and then also, I think,the other challenges,
everything from content taxonomylike are we all going to just
use Apple forever?
How are we going to be able todefine this?
I mean, there are so manyinherent kind of challenges that
(04:08):
IAB are trying to overcome.
Then you add layers ofprogrammatic, and that makes it
even a little bit morechallenging.
What is interesting, though, isthat we're seeing that we have
a really we're very similar toCTV, which at first I kind of
bristled against because I'mlike I don't want to be like CTV
, but the nice thing is thatwhen you have similarities with
(04:30):
a very large part of theindustry, it does make it easier
for buyers to understand thenomenclature that we're talking
about, so their challenges aresometimes ours, which is not bad
.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Now that's one thing that you and James, when you
were in Venice, were talkingabout was the problem with the
way that podcasting and buyingof media is probably talking
Swahili.
The two parts are not talkingright.
So what do we need to do inpodcasting to make media buying
(05:01):
easier?
Because Tom Webster recentlysaid that you know, or it was
the media leader that said thatpodcasts have a $74 billion
opportunity in advertising, butwe're only getting about 0.2% of
all ad spend, although we areseeing the growth rapidly of
more and more people coming intothe podcasting space as
listeners.
So we've got more listeners,we've got more engagement, and
(05:25):
yet we are still getting a micro, micro amount of the
advertising spend.
What can we do to change, rocky?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You're right, it's so shocking I like to say.
You know, podcasting is themost popular and one of the most
consumed, underbought modernmedias I've ever run across and
it's really frustrating.
And I said that in Venice.
I'm like it's just it's toohard to buy, and some people
took a little bit of bristle tothat.
I'm like, well, let me rephraseit, it's too hard to buy at
scale for large brands.
(05:54):
And I think one of thechallenges is what we're just
talking about is consistentmeasurement across the side.
So today we're getting bought,basically because you know we're
getting bought basicallybecause we're getting the extra
10% buys that are happening atthe buy level and we're not
actually part of what we callsales planning right now.
And that's just not podcasting,that's actually digital audio
(06:16):
as well if you look at it from astreaming standpoint, and we're
never going to get more thanour 5% or 10% afterthought until
we are actually part of themedia plant's initial planning
time, when they're looking attheir year-long strategy.
We're talking millions uponmillions of dollars and right
now, what we're focused on andwe are working with partnerships
which will probably be comingout in the next couple months of
(06:38):
how to get a measurement intothose platforms so then those
buyers can actually identify allright, how many like old school
stuff, like gross rating points, which some of them still use.
You know how, if I have 10 GRPsin New York, how can I bring
podcasts in there to basicallytarget those listeners within
New York and how can webasically keep on expanding it?
Because at the end of the day,I don't, I don't, I don't blame
(07:00):
the demand or the advertisingside.
It's really hard to beswivel-chairing.
I call between a whole bunch ofdifferent platforms to buy a
very large media spend and so Ithink really gosh, it's not like
a broken record.
But it comes back tomeasurement.
I mean, I would say that ourbiggest challenge and our
biggest opportunity in thisindustry right now is
measurement and I would say onthe publisher side is also
(07:23):
making sure we're consistentlypassing the correct signals to
those buyers.
And that can mean everythingfrom the type of content it is.
I would say brand safety is notso much of an issue, and I say
that just because most of thepodcasts out there are pretty
brand safe and if a podcast useris going to go listen to that
(07:43):
certain type of podcast, it's auser-initiated action.
So I kind of look at it as ifyou want if an advertiser wants
to target that, that's whatthey're going to get, and also
dynamic ad insertion plays intothat as well.
So really my goal this year isto figure out how we can get a
measurement of podcasts into theplanning tools that buyers are
using today podcast into theplanning tools that buyers are
(08:06):
using today.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Okay, so we have to change on our side, but they
have to understand the platformsas well and get the tools for
it.
Now, bumper, which I love it'sa lovely agency came out of
Pacific Content.
They talk about a download notbeing a listen and a listen
being how long, right?
So James and I talk about veryconsistently, listen time,
percent completed, as twometrics that need to be done in
podcasting.
Is that what the buyers want?
(08:31):
Because that's what Spotify andYouTube can give them.
First party data which says,yes, rocky listened to this
episode for 18 minutes, which is42% of that podcast.
Right, and Rocky's based here,here and here.
Female gender, demographicright, and Rocky's based here,
here and here female gender,demographic right, and that's
what the buyers want.
So what has to change?
Because at the moment, nothingseems to change.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, I kind of look at the buy industry for podcasts
in two different buckets.
So the buyers are going to bebuying at scale or typically be
transacting programmatically,and that's not just you, not
just open bidding.
That's what we callprogrammatic guarantee, which is
essentially just like executingan insertion order you still do
a handshake, you stillnegotiate the rates, it's just
(09:14):
you're not the one who'strafficking in it.
The demand side, or theadvertiser, is actually
trafficking that, and that'sgoing to be fueled by dynamic ad
insertion and when you get that, you're going to get the
impression counting, you'regoing to see the completion,
you're going to have portals,all the loveliness that they
absolutely want.
I am still a huge fan of what wecall baked in or personal
(09:34):
endorsements, or live reads orfake reads, or that whole
category of direct advertising,or I'd even say within the
representation firms that areout there that represent those
podcasters.
Because the reason is is thatdirect really does work, because
you're able to really craftthat creative.
And when I first I sold radioin my career, I sold air, and so
(09:54):
I didn't have a list, and backthen all you had was yellow
pages and you used to takecategories, and so my shtick was
that I would interview everyon-air primetime, on-air talent,
find out where the eight slept,lived, and then I would go to
those places and do personalendorsements.
I find that when they'realready passionate about the
brand, it's crazy and reallywe're getting to an area because
(10:17):
of all the privacy issues andthe data issues the trend right
now and it's pro and con.
I'm not sure if I stand in onecamp or other.
It's really about outcomes andI think the advertisers are
truly looking at the outcomes oftheir advertising, which really
bodes well for podcasts,because we've been so DR direct
respond focused for so long.
It's really trying to tie thosetwo together For many years.
(10:38):
I tried to launch a programmaticmarketplace at AdsWiz called
Podwave 10 years ago and I hadnational public media.
I had great advertisers readyto go.
I could not get the podcastpublishers to come on board yet.
It was just way, way too soon,and now I'm seeing the inverse.
I think a lot of podcastersthink that programmatic should
be 100% of their advertising andsometimes that could work.
(11:00):
When I say programmatic, I'mtalking more open, not really
programmatic guarantee, and Ibelieve that you should always
try to have a direct or arepresentation business working
with a podcaster and then theprogrammatic if it's open
bidding, it's kind of like it'sthe extra fill, the yield
optimization you should be doing.
It's symbiotic.
They should really try not tobe one or the other and I think
(11:20):
that we have to think of it likethat, especially as new
opportunities come up.
And I think that we have tothink of it like that especially
as new opportunities come upwith I'm a big fan of possible
hyper-local coming up here and Ithink there's great
opportunities across the boundsfor podcasters.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, given your radio background and radio, I think,
has 15 minutes in the hour ofads, you know saturation, we're
not there with podcasting.
Now again, tom Webster's talkedabout three ads per podcast, an
hour podcast.
Do you see, in 2025, peopleupping that to five, six and
(11:52):
competing with the saturation ofradio?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
I do and I wish they wouldn't.
And I am a hobby economistbecause I'm not trained, but I
do.
That's my thing is.
I like to research economicsand I think we're kind of doing
a slight disservice when youkeep on adding more spots to an
ad break.
The problem is that you'readding more supply.
(12:17):
My old local sales manager isin the back of my head saying
you know, basically constrictthe supply so you can increase
the rate on the demand side ofit.
I know that's easier said thandone when everybody else is
opening up all their spot setsand they're getting more money.
But I think what happens is andI'm noticing it more myself as I
listen to such a wide varietyof podcasts across the whole
ecosystem is that it is going toimpact how people are going to
(12:40):
want to listen and when theyknow that you have a two-minute
spot break, they're going totake out their phone and they're
going to skip, versus having a30 or a 60-second spot break.
What is going to be yourinfluence of pain?
Are you going to go ahead andopen it up?
And I think when we keep thebreaks tight, I'm a big fan of a
15-second ad.
I know that's really tight, butI find that we really have an
(13:02):
ADHD transactional brainnowadays and I think that people
really like to have concisemessaging and I think that's one
of my biggest challenges withsome endorsement or live reads
is the guys don't hold tight tolike a clock when they're doing
their reads, and I've heard liketwo minute Casper ads.
Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh,guys, you've got to keep it
(13:23):
tight.
And then also hearing the samebullet point creatives going
over and over.
The beautiful thing about livereads is they're not supposed to
burn out on creative andthey're starting to burn out and
that's where I think it's anopportunity to mix up the
creative, have a differentchallenge, find out the first
demo, the second demo, thetertiary demo.
Make sure you're making amessage towards that, just
(13:43):
because, at the end of the day,it increases your outcome, which
is going to increase theability for you to get bought
again.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Do you see AI ads being a better way of then
staying within those boundaries?
Create the script, have it AIdriven, change the voices, make
it a little bit different, butyou don't have the fallibility
of humans who are going to thendrift over in your amount.
You said that Casper mattressad goes from 15 seconds to two
minutes.
That's a bad ad, but an AI isnever going to drift, so do you
(14:10):
go back to that format?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, I think the way I look at AI voicing because I
almost call it like dynamic,creative to some extent is I
think there's great applicationsfor it for certain types of
advertisers and certain types ofoutcomes that people want.
I'm never a person who's goingto be like I'm cut and dry on it
.
I think every situation isdifferent.
I do think that we should betesting it because I'm curious.
(14:33):
And then also, how do peoplefeel if it's the announcers or
the talent's voice beingsynthesized into AI?
I also look at it from adifferent point of view.
Would it be exciting if you hada global brand that you could
actually switch to the correctlanguage for that listener?
I think that could be possiblyexciting.
Again, it'd have to definitelybe a larger global brand or
(14:55):
brand that's in that country,but I think there's definitely
applications for it.
I don't think we should be toomyopic to say that, oh, it's
going to kill the talent.
I don't know.
I think there's room.
We're such an emerging stillindustry.
I think right now we need to betesting and seeing what's
really working the best forserving not only the publishers
but also in creators as well asthe advertisers in demand.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, we will see what happens.
Now one of the other areas whyare you against it?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I'm kind of curious what's your view on it, sam yeah
.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I think one of the trust points of podcasting is
the host.
You tune into the regular hostand you build I think Alberto
from rsscom call it parasocial aone-way relationship with the
host, because you hear so muchabout their life through the
form of the podcast, but youthen form a picture around that
(15:43):
person, but they don't know whoyou are as a listener.
Let's say so.
You have a trust relationshipwith that person.
So if you then break that trustrelationship with an AI, I
think that's going to sort ofjuxtapose against the listener.
Oh, that's not what I expected.
No, I'm not sure.
I'm comfortable, I don't know.
Again, I don't know either.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I think it's going to be interesting.
I think also that it reallydepends on the type of flavor of
your podcast, like I thinkcertain ads are, you know, more
accepted on certain types of howthe flavor and the flow of a
podcast is.
I think it's always reallyjarring when you're, you know,
having it's an interview.
It's very chilled and all of asudden a FanDuel ad comes in and
(16:22):
kind of yells at you.
So I think it really comes downto the tonality of the podcast.
So that's why I'm never reallycut and dry on everything and
some podcasts the hosts justdon't have that type.
They're more informational,they're more educational.
I'm thinking of some of myeconomic podcasts I listen to.
I don't feel like I have arelationship with the host as
much as I have a relationshipwith the content that they
(16:43):
provide and I have a respect forthe content they provide.
So it's a little different.
I think it's tough, right,because there's so many
different flavors of podcasts,right?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So the one thing and we won't be able to go into a
great deal of depth here becauseit's too out there for the
moment but one of my beliefs isthat the reason that users skip
ads and that's who theadvertiser wants to reach right
at the end of the day is becausetheir time and attention is not
valued by the ad that'sdelivered.
(17:13):
It's either contextually out ofsort or the ad is just not in
line with what the content isthat they're listening to and
actually most of the time you'regoing, actually I don't want to
listen to an ad at all and thepodcaster doesn't care because
they've been paid, but the onlyperson who's not getting the
value is the advertiser, whichis why I go back to how long did
(17:34):
the person listen to the ad andhow much did they complete the
ad.
So I built a model I'm notgoing to go into today for true
fans that actually measures howlong someone listens to an ad
and their engagement level, andthat's, I think, going to be a
much more powerful way.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
But, as I said so well, on the dynamic side we've
been counting quartiles for 10years, much like the video side,
so we're able to see whensomebody you know bails out 25,
50 or 75% within like a 30, 15or 60 second ad.
I would say that I think it'sexciting.
I think the challenge comes inis that you know, in our
(18:08):
openness that I look becausewe're very open web, we believe
in free media and open standardsand we always have been a sound
stack because we areindependent, we're bootstrapped,
we're not owned by a mediacompany.
We get to build whatever wewant to, which is challenging
and fun at the same time.
But I really think that it'salways tough when you don't have
control of the client.
I'll be honest with you.
That's why we started dynamicad insertion in the beginning,
(18:29):
because back in the day we hadto fire a banner ad to count the
audio ad impression, which isreally killing my soul because
it was like the advertiser wasgetting a two for one impression
at that time.
And so that's really where westarted doing server-side ad
insertion on that side so we canaccurately count, because we
didn't have control of Apple, wedidn't have control of the
client.
It's, I mean, it goes back tostreaming audio with Icecast,
(18:51):
shellcast, shellcast, yp, backin the day TuneIn.
I mean you can go through allthe aggregation apps, the
aggregation apps.
You just don't have controlover them.
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We've been playing around with those chapter tags.
So we'll see.
Okay, let's hit a couple ofquestions.
So, given you talked about open, given you talked about you
know what you're doing withchapters.
Where are you with podcastingto the O?
There was a podcast out todayfrom Mark Askwith which was
podcasting to the O has failed,and he openly admits that was
clickbait, but it was also avery interesting.
(19:23):
Okay, let's throw theconversation back open.
Has it succeeded?
Has it failed?
Has Soundstack adopted it?
And if they have, great.
And if they haven't, why not?
I mean, where do you sit asstrategy director on this?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I love a lot of the elements within Podcast 2.0.
I think the challenge withPodcast 2.0 is there are so many
options that you can do inthere and the way that we
approach it.
As Soundstack, we definitelyadopt some of the elements and
tags.
It really comes down to whatour publishers are asking us to
implement.
You literally have implementedalmost all of them, which is
(19:58):
incredibly impressive.
I have to say it's incrediblyimpressive.
I would say, obviously thetranscripts, the person, the
location ones, because thatmakes a lot of sense.
A lot of our publishers alsotend to be broadcasters or they
tend to be podcast networks.
And then also I wouldn't sayit's a secret, but actually it
kind of is we actually provide alot of the delivery for some
(20:18):
people who would be consideredcompetitive to soundstack.
That I can't talk about becausethat's how we've grown as a
company.
We actually provide deliveryand hosting for other companies.
But the one I'm excited about is, you know, the live item tag.
I mean that's the cause.
I see that as really like thecool thing about merging
possibilities between the linearas well as the on-demand and
(20:40):
and doing live events, and Imean this is like.
This is where it gets reallycool for like local sports and
just it's just.
This is like a kind of a geekaudio girl's dream come true,
and so I, to answer yourquestion, do I think the podcast
2.0 has failed?
No, I would say that it hasfailed in its focus, and when I
say that is that I think we'd bebetter served if we find a
(21:04):
couple of the tags that arereally going to help.
Either One's going to drivemonetization, maybe for more
transparency within what I callprogrammatic signals.
One's going to help maybe mergethe lit tag between linear and
on-demand.
Maybe one that helps out withmetrics, I think, really
focusing, taking elements of it,the value for value.
One and I know that recentlychanged and I'm still trying to
(21:26):
follow you guys on how, becausewe don't do too much of that
type.
Most of our clients areenterprise clients.
I understand the concept, tipjar and trying to get that in
there, but I'll be honest withyou, I still do the credit cards
with you guys, just because I'mon Pocket Cast, which is, I
feel, like a newer 2.0, but it'sdefinitely not like the True
Fans app or some other stuffthat we have on there.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think I'm equally giddy and excited about Lit as
you are.
One of my predictions for 2025was that it will go big.
Finally, adam and Dave do alive show every Friday night.
Todd Cochran and Rob Greenleedo a live show.
There are many that are doingit.
I think you've seen Netflix getinto NFL.
You've seen Amazon get intofootball and soccer in this
(22:09):
country.
You've seen RSScom nearly gotinto it fully.
They adopted the live tag, butthey didn't put a server
capability, an HLS server or anIcecast server into it, and I
think that's what's missingright now.
I think I've talked to Jamesabout the field construct for
the live item tag, start time,end time, name of URL for the
(22:32):
server.
All that is too geeky for theaverage user.
They need to just simply go toa host and go.
I want to go live a bit likeStreamYard did or a bit like
Riverside a host and go.
I want to go live a bit likestreamyard did or a bit like
riverside does.
Right, I want to go live, clickthat button and in the
background, it does all thegeeky stuff for you.
They don't need to know how todo that, and so I'm really
hoping hosts will start toprovide their clients, the
(22:55):
podcasters, with that one clickaccess to live, and then I think
you'll see more people adoptingit.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Well, and that's why I think that Soundstack is
really.
This is why we get real excitedabout it, because this is
really in our sweet spot,because we know the Icecast
Showcast.
We just launched our own streamserver with HLS and we're still
iterating and developing onstreaming protocols and we just
look at it as for efficiency andhow we can balance out our own
(23:21):
network that we own.
And so we get excited becausewe're finally seeing that we
could really help out theindustry, because we are those
people who are independent whowant to help out creators who
actually have incredible deepknowledge on streaming protocols
.
And I was listening to I thinkit was maybe a podcast 2.0 or
one of them with those guys andI could feel their frustration
(23:43):
of figuring out metadata withinIcecast or Shoutcast.
And you're right, people thinkdigital audio is all the same.
It's not.
It's audio, but the deliverymechanisms are so different.
And how can we at Soundstackhelp bridge that gap a little
bit is something that I'm reallyexcited about and where I'm
working on, because I've been onrevenue forever and I love
making revenue and I love, uh,and I love making publisher
(24:06):
success.
I like paying publishers, I likeand I like seeing them continue
to grow because, I'll be honestwith you, they're the heroes.
If we, if we don't supportpublishers, we don't really have
an industry anymore, and Idon't think people kind of think
about that.
We can have an industry that'sbasically driven by the mega
companies and we'll be back towhere radio was, you know, circa
1996.
And I don't think we reallywant that.
(24:26):
I think we want to keepindependent voices thriving and
that's something that we'reexcited about too, because we
want to help out the industrywith our knowledge.
We actually really understandthat and I would say we probably
need a little bit more podcast2.0 people to kind of work with
us so we can figure out how wecan help make it easier because,
you're right, it is deep, geekyyeah, given where sound stack
(24:46):
is, with its radio backgroundand with its podcasting.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So are you saying that you are going to enable
those radio stations to usemedium equals radio for being a
little bit techie for a second,but fundamentally they will then
have another channel to market?
So, as I said, when I had myown radio station, we would do
DAB, but we would do web.
Alexa and lit wasn't around,but we had a shoutcast server
(25:13):
that would broadcast throughthose channels, and all I'm
hoping is that radio stationsand people who run them, like
yourselves, go.
Yeah, no, don't worry, we'regoing to add one more
distribution channel for you.
It's going to be called apodcasting 2.0 or it's going to
be called, just you know, liveitem tag or whatever you want to
call it, and you don't need todo anything.
You need to broadcast whatyou're doing today, your shows,
(25:35):
and we'll distribute it for you.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
That's exactly.
That's exactly.
And then, conversely, we thinkit's really exciting that we've
already done beta tests withpodcast networks of stacking
their content in a linear form.
So not only is it the abilityto go full streaming when you
are going live, but also how canyou archive that.
So I have a lean backexperience.
So and this is not going towork for all podcast creators
Some of them have great,evergreen content that I could
(26:03):
probably listen to how stuffworks for two years and not have
a repeat of their content.
I mean, how gasoline is madedoes not change that much, so I
mean, I think that it reallydepends on it.
But I think it's also reallyexciting because I can start
seeing verticalization.
Then we even know how can wetake music stations.
We have 4500 music uhpublishers on live 365.
(26:23):
How can we get, possibly,podcast content shows within
that streaming, which and thissounds familiar, sam it should,
because it's how radio has beenrunning no, it's what I've been
shouting about.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It's like itication.
Yes, it's like if the contentdoesn't have to be live live, it
can be live schedule, but itcan be recorded into the live
schedule and it's so basic.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
We, we are we are very much the fans of create
something really cool once andlet us help you distribute it as
many different ways as youpossibly can.
I mean it does it's.
I would say that it's not thatfar to think that you know Barn
Talk.
You know, like a podcast group.
It should be in a countrystation on a syndicated time
period, I don't know eighto'clock on a Friday night on the
(27:08):
East Coast.
I mean, it's just like the oldradio tricks that we used to
have for syndicated content.
Why would we not do that?
It's kind of cool.
I would say that probably thatlistener would probably enjoy a
15-minute segment on this, thatprobably that listener would
probably enjoy a 15-minutesegment on this.
So that's why we get realexcited about this, because we
just see it as a way ofcross-pollinating content.
It's not going to be foreverybody and we understand that
.
We're really trying to innovateand iterate on cool things and
(27:31):
we're like, wow, that'd bereally cool.
And people are like, is thatwhat radio used to?
Yeah, it is, but I think theyforgot about this, so we're
going to bring it back up.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, and I think Adam and Dave are very right,
the hyperlocal, as well, isgoing to come back into fashion.
I think that's going to bethrough live item tag.
Yeah, I think there's a lot ofopportunity.
No, I think it's exciting andthen think about the kids.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
We can get involved in this, and that's where I kind
of geek out, because it's likethe Gen Z and Alpha is the ones
that are quite young.
It is really about puttingtheir.
They're almost like microbroadcasters now.
I mean, that's essentially whatTikTok and social is.
So how can we really graspthose people to become the new,
like journalists and like theproducers of the future?
(28:11):
Because I mean, I'm not gettingany younger.
I don't know about you, sam,but it's like that's.
We got to get those folks andthose young people really
excited, and I think you'realways starting to see
excitement.
That's what's so great aboutpodcasting it really does target
younger folks, and so now wejust got to get them creating
and, you know, possiblyparticipate more in our industry
, which will be really fun.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Awesome, I could talk to you all day with Rocky.
Now, look, we'll geek out afterthis show.
Now, rocky, if somebody wantsto find out more about
Soundstack, where would they go?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Soundstackcom.
We're obviously on LinkedIn andall the other social places.
Anyone can reach out to me atRocky R-O-C-K-I-E.
Like the mountains, Rocky atSoundstackcom, and love
collaboration, love talkingabout the industry.
I believe there's really notany one answer.
I think it's all about makingsure that we're all kind of
(29:00):
figuring out the best way pathforward, and I'm excited about
it.
It's a great time to be in thisindustry right now.
We have our challenges, butit's interesting because, just
on the final thought, it's funnybecause everybody you know
wanted to be, you know, reallypopular and mainstream in
podcasts and now that it'shappened, we're having a little
bit of a challenge dealing withour new popularity, which is a
(29:21):
really great problem to have ifyou look at it, you know.
So it's nice to know what yourparents do when you say
podcasting, so it's cool.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I remember when I was an army officer my mom was so
proud and then I said I was anentrepreneur.
One day she was like what thehell's an entrepreneur?
And if she was still alive andI said it was a podcaster, she'd
lose it.
She'd still alive and I said itwas a podcaster, I should lose
it.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
You should have no idea what I did.
Rocky, will we see you inLondon at the London Podcast
Show?
Will we see you in Chicago?
Where are you going to be?
So, yes and yes.
So I am doing a panel or afireside chat with Larry Rosen
from Edison Research, and thenalso I just booked my ticket
yesterday for London, so I willbe in London, which I'm quite
excited about.
Soundsec has been there thepast couple of years.
We're bringing about seven oreight people this year to that
show as well, so that'll beexciting.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Nice, we'll catch up then properly.
Rocky Thomas, thank you so much.
It's been wonderfulinterviewing you.
I had to wait a while, but itwas worth the wait.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Same here.
I really enjoy it.
Thank you for your time andyour support.
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