August 14, 2025 • 40 mins
James and Sam are away this week, so time for an interview in more detail than we normally would. Norma-Jean Belenky discusses her new podcast PodBiz, which explores the various ways podcasters monetize their content through transparent conversations with industry professionals.
• PodBiz aims to answer the question "where's the money in podcasting?" through interviews with experts in advertising, subscriptions, and alternative revenue models
• Some independent creators with just 1,200 downloads per episode are making six-figure incomes from their podcasts
• Advertising remains strong, but subscription models are gaining significant traction across the industry
• Organizations like AIR (Association of Independent Radio Professionals) publish rate cards to promote fair compensation for podcast production roles
• Quality podcast production requires adequate labor and resources – "good work takes labor"
• Value-for-value models and cryptocurrency-based micropayments remain niche but have potential for growth
• Event hosting, merchandise, and packaging content across multiple platforms are effective additional revenue streams
• Podcasters are building communities through newsletters and events to strengthen audience relationships
• AI tools help reduce labor-intensive aspects of production but raise questions about transparency and disclosure
• The podcast industry faces potential regulatory challenges as governments implement content restrictions and age verification
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:04):
The last word in podcasting news.
This is the Pod News WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.
James Cridland (00:14):
Hello, I'm James Cridland.
I'm the editor of Pod News.
Sam and I are away this week,but we don't want to leave you
empty handed, so we thought we'dgive you this.
This is a great interview withNorma Jean Belenke, who Sam
caught up with last week.
She's just launched a newpodcast called Podbiz all about
how podcasts make money, andit's a great listen.
(00:36):
Enjoy it.
This podcast is sponsored byBuzzsprout, with the tools,
support and community to ensureyou keep podcasting.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting with buzzsproutcom.
Sam Sethi (00:48):
Hello and welcome back to Pod News Weekly Review.
We have a friend of the showhere.
Her name's Norma Jean Belenki.
She is based over in Portugalat the moment.
You wouldn't guess that by heraccent.
Norma hello, how are you?
Norma Jean Belenky (01:00):
Hi Sam, it's a pleasure to be here.
I'm doing great.
Now, you've just launched a newpodcast called Podbiz.
Tell me more about Podbiz.
Yes, podbiz is here to answerone big question when is the
money in podcasting Show?
Sam Sethi (01:15):
me the money Exactly.
Norma Jean Belenky (01:22):
Show me the money.
Show me the money Exactly.
So we're really excited to haveconversations.
I partnered with a formercolleague, john Kiernan from the
Podhouse Productions, and whatPodbiz is really here to do is
to have transparentconversations on monetization
within the podcasting industry.
So everybody's first thought isads and of course, we have all
the ads folks on.
We're here to talk about ads.
We're here to talk with all thead nerds.
We're here to talk about allthe acronyms, and then we've
(01:45):
also had a lot of really amazingguests talking about salary
transparency and podcasting,talking about how they package
their podcast and theirofferings for clients, what the
strategy is.
Around that, we've hadindependent creators come on who
are getting, on average, 1200downloads an episode, who are
making six figures from theirpodcast.
We have some incredibleepisodes coming up.
We've just launched, but wehave quite a few in the can.
(02:07):
So I'm trying not to talk abouteverybody who's been on the show
but whose episode isn't out yet, because it's just too exciting
.
It's one of those things whereyou just want everyone to know
all the things that you know,and we've been so lucky.
Everyone has been reallygenerous with their time.
Everyone we've asked has saidyes, and I think we all really
want to have these conversationsand hear these conversations.
Right, how much are you making?
What's a fair salary to ask forIf you are a production editor
(02:31):
or a story editor?
How much are people makingwithin the podcasting software
space?
How much are ads running forand what's the gold standard in
ads?
And I think that people reallywant to have these conversations
and sometimes people are reallyshy to admit what they don't
know, and I have a history interms of my previous experience
of asking all the dumb questions, so other people don't have to,
(02:51):
even when I know the answer.
It's really important to makethings accessible and inclusive
within podcasting because we arean open medium and there is
room for everybody.
Sam Sethi (02:59):
I've got so many questions off the back of that
already, right?
So let's break this down offthe back of that already, right?
So let's break this down.
First of all, stephen Colberthad 200 staff making his show,
the Late Late Show, and it cost100 million and he was losing 40
million, and so none of that'ssustainable, right?
The old TV gatekeepers, I think, are going to go away.
I think we are seeing the riseof YouTube-based podcasts, and
(03:23):
so, in terms of what's anacceptable size?
When you look at somebody likeStephen Bartlett with Diary of a
CEO roughly, I don't know, he'sgot a staff of anywhere between
20 and 50, depends who you askwhat is an acceptable size for a
hit team, then what would yousay?
You know the team should be.
What's the acceptable paymentlevels?
Norma Jean Belenky (03:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, how long is a piece ofstring?
Number one I think it's reallyimportant to make sure that your
team is equitably compensatedfor the work that they do.
I think sometimes, if it's yourface on it or you're the one
selling it or it's your businessand your name on the door,
people have a bit of anentitlement around that, which
is important, right.
And also, as the industryemerges, that rising tide is
(04:08):
here to lift all boats, and sowe had an opportunity to speak
to Aaron from AIR, theAssociation of Independent Radio
Professionals, and they publisha rate card every year of what
those jobs should be paid, andso I think that that's a really
important statistic fortransparency in our industry.
I'm not going to tell you whatthey are because I want you to
(04:28):
listen to the episode teaser,and I also think you know in
terms of the staff of a show,it's important to make profit
plague of creators, either atsmall production companies or
independent one man bandcreators get so overwhelmed by
(04:49):
trying to do everything, and Ithink everybody listening has
seen that trend where, whensocial media came out 15 years
ago and started to be importantand profitable for companies,
they let the intern do it allthe social media all the time.
And now, running social mediais depending on what kind of
company you work for.
One person can run severalaccounts, or one person can run
(05:11):
one account, or many people canrun one account, depending on
the size of your account,depending on the kind of content
you're putting out.
I think that flight studio isdoing a tremendous job, and the
thing that is important, insteadof the number of people on
their staff, is that the qualityis consistent.
The reason people want to watchtheir shows is because they're
(05:32):
excited, they want to hear whatthe guests have to say.
The clips are eye-grabbing,ear-grabbing, catching your
attention at every juncture.
And while that can seem likeit's super easy to do, that
formula takes labor.
It takes time to test andthey're really known for testing
media.
They know, hey, we're actuallygoing to come at this with a
(05:54):
curious mindset and we're notgoing to come at this pretending
we know.
We're going to actually let themarket and the data show us
what works, and so that can takepeople power, and I think it's
something where we can all sayhow many people are you keeping
on staff?
Did it a revenue?
And, at the same time, goodwork takes labor.
Sam Sethi (06:12):
Yeah, it does.
And the secret to the eclipseis I heard it from Stephen
Bartlett which is they've got apanel who listened to the show
before it goes out and they hitthe space bar at the thing they
find most interesting and thenthey look at the histogram from
the whole panel and the peak iswhere they put the clips out.
So it's really interesting howthey do that.
Norma Jean Belenky (06:32):
Yeah, and that data.
The time to do that researchfor each episode is labor
intensive.
He's got a team doing that andit pays off.
Sam Sethi (06:39):
Yeah, it does.
Three million daily views now.
So, yeah, they're doing verywell.
Now, advertising One of thetrends that I think I'm
observing and maybe you can tellme whether I'm crazy or not is
I'm seeing more content goingbehind paywalls, quality content
going to Substack to Patreon,which means that there's less
(06:59):
advertising.
We've also seen that Spotifyand YouTube have asked for DAI
to be removed out of episodes sothey can inject their own, so
creators are now putting contentup and putting it behind
paywalls and, as you said, joeBudden, I think is making a
million dollars a month fromPatreon.
Going to struggle Is theaverage rate.
(07:28):
The CPM dropping Is what JamesCridland sometimes has said.
Those people that can affordthe subscription pay for no ads
and those people that can't earads.
So if you're listening to ads,it's only because you're not
either paying or you can'tafford to not have ads, and
isn't that the people that theadvertisers don't want to reach?
And isn't the people who canpay the people that the
(07:49):
advertisers do want to reach?
Norma Jean Belenky (07:51):
You know, I think if you're McDonald's you
want to reach everybody, and soI think that there is a market
for every advertiser.
It just really depends on theproduct and the placement fit.
I do see trends of that splitbetween subscriber and free base
of listeners, and I think thatthe industry is evolving in that
(08:12):
direction.
I was really surprised by thenumber of people who came onto
Podbiz and just went hard onsubscriptions, people who you'd
think like talk about adsspecifically.
I mean we just had BrianBarletta on and I was thinking
Brian would just go on an adstangent and he really talked a
lot about subscriptions, and soI think we're seeing the direct
monetization models work and soanytime you have that kind of
(08:33):
industry disruption, there'sgonna be a ripple effect toward
other monetization models.
Are ads going anywhere?
No, not at all.
Sam Sethi (08:42):
So from your perspective, then, you're saying
that there's still a goodbalance between ad supported
podcasting and subscriptionsupported podcasting.
Norma Jean Belenky (08:50):
I think we're currently seeing a good
balance.
I think the market willdetermine what kind of balance
we have in the next 18 months.
You know, I think podcastingmoves in cyclical phases and
every 18 months there seems tobe new trends.
And currently the thing thateverybody's talking about
besides video is subscriptions,because we're starting to see
large platforms implement them.
(09:11):
Apple podcasts really came outof the gate and said hey, we've
integrated subscriptions.
They had a lot of hostingplatform partnerships enable
those subscriptions from thebackend.
So as an independent creator,you could just upload an episode
specific for your subscriptionbase.
Maybe that was an ad freeepisode, Maybe that was an
extended episode, a bonusepisode answering questions from
(09:31):
fans or subscribers, that kindof thing and so Apple Podcasts
really made it accessible fromthe platform side with their
platform partners, and then thatripple effect is what we're
seeing now, I believe.
Sam Sethi (09:41):
Now I'm going to ask you a couple of questions based
on stuff that I tend to work onand wonder if it's reached over
to Portugal and to NormaJean-Balenke yet.
So, in terms of making money,one of the areas that the
podcast in 2.0 community looksat is micropayments and Bitcoin
based micropayments, called Sats.
Is that something that you'rehearing from anybody?
(10:04):
Do you think that's anothermonetary stream or is it just
off the radar?
Norma Jean Belenky (10:09):
I mean, it's definitely something that has
crossed my path, but it's notcommonly mentioned, and I also
think these things are nicheuntil they're not.
People ask me all the time I'vebeen asked on several podcasts
about podcasting what my biggestregret is, and I have to tell
everybody I only allow myself toever have one regret at a time.
So if I give up my currentregret, I've got to have a
bigger one, and the one regretI've had for a good long chunk
(10:31):
of time is that I didn't buyBitcoin in 2012.
So I was like fake money,what's that crypto?
Huh?
And I think that crypto basedproducts, in terms of value for
value, really feed into theethos of that currency.
And I think that crypto-basedproducts, in terms of value for
value, really feed into theethos of that currency.
And I think, as time goes on,as we're seeing
subscription-based models andvalue for value grow because
we've also had a lot of guestscome on speaking about value for
(10:53):
value, which I know you know,true fans you guys are really
putting at the forefront.
I think we'll start to see thatmore and more.
Do I know the pace?
No, I think it would take acouple of larger creators who
have a fan base to specificallyelicit that call to action, to
get big movement at this stage.
Sam Sethi (11:13):
Yeah, I agree, I think you know I worked for
Netscape and I've always said itreminds me of when the browser
first came out and we tried toexplain the concept of what a
URL was, and HTTP and then WWW.
And I remember people lookingat me going and we tried to
explain the concept of what aURL was, and HTTP and then www.
And I remember people lookingat me going you're talking
Swahili, sam, I have no ideawhat you're talking about.
And of course now it's commonlexicon, but it's a wallet,
(11:35):
they're micropayments, they callsats.
They're not hard concepts, butthey are till you know what they
mean.
Norma Jean Belenky (11:41):
It's not even that they're hard concepts.
I think it's a behavioralquestion.
When is people's behavior?
Sam Sethi (11:52):
going to change, and how do you change the behavior
of many people at the same time?
So I think one of the thingsthat's interesting this week
Spotify has just increased thesubscription in Europe again.
They haven't done it in the USyet, but they have in Europe.
One of the reports that cameout from Edison Research was
there is about a $5 priceelasticity where people will
eventually say no, that's justtoo expensive and they will drop
(12:14):
off.
We haven't reached that pointyet, but I think that's the
tipping point where I hope andbelieve that people will then
look for alternative ways ofmonetizing their podcast or
listening to a podcast withmonetization, as opposed to
paying a ongoing subscription.
So let's say, spotify becomes$30 a month, would you pay that?
Norma Jean Belenky (12:36):
I probably would, to be honest, because I
have to look at it for myclients, right, so it's a
business expense for me.
I think Spotify has madethemselves indispensable because
they have incorporated manydifferent products into one app
Music, yes, podcasts, yes,audiobooks.
Now they're pushing real hard,and so I think you know the fact
(12:57):
that they are trying to competedirectly with YouTube.
They're not competing withother companies within the
podcasting space as much.
Many companies withinpodcasting, whether that's on
the software side and on thatplatform side or more on the
directory side, look up toSpotify, and Spotify is not
looking at us.
Spotify is looking at YouTube,I would assume.
Sam Sethi (13:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, they are so a wannabe YouTube right
now.
Shout out to the Spice Girls.
Now, beyond that, what do youthen see, based on all the
interviews you've done, where doyou think, in six months, 12
months, the monetization?
Where is the money?
Is it going to stay purely anad driven market, subscription
(13:37):
driven market?
Are you seeing other modelsthat people are talking about
then?
Norma Jean Belenky (13:41):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We're seeing a lot of variedmonetization.
It's interesting because adsnumber one I want to say
subscriptions from everybodythat I've talked to without you
know any significant likesurveys is the number two ways
people are talking aboutmonetization.
Other things that are coming upare value for value, which is
really big.
Events Merchandise is still inthe running, you know.
(14:04):
I think also, having additionalvalue for your listeners, in
whatever form that comes in, isstill important.
My media brand and their mediabrand is going to sell packages
(14:27):
across their socials that theyare boosting or that they're
putting a lot of energy andintention into, and that's going
to come across also in theirnewsletter.
I mean, obviously, newslettersare really big, but when we're
talking about monetization fromshows, it's looking like, you
know, apart from the big adfolks and the subscription folks
, it's looking at how can Ipackage this and what are the
(14:48):
different ways, how can I getcreative in what I'm selling and
how I'm providing value to thebusinesses that want my audience
and, as a result, can supportmy show.
Sam Sethi (14:59):
Yeah, and I think, with what you're saying there,
it's that multimodal capability,how to reach your fans.
So I'm looking at companieslike Substack, where I think
they do a really good job.
They give newsletters, livepodcasting, video.
Domain customization I thinkthis is the Achilles heel of
(15:19):
YouTube and Spotify, because ifI build my business brand around
Spotify, let's say I go all inand I want to be a Spotify.
Whatever video creator or I goto YouTube, I can't customize
the platform and I certainlycan't set a domain name that is
(15:42):
my own specific domain.
I liken going to Spotify andYouTube in the same way when you
had your own website or blog,going to Facebook and building
Facebook pages.
Right.
Norma Jean Belenky (15:47):
Absolutely.
It's an external platform thateverybody's on.
So I think it's this delicatebalance of the internet that's
mine versus the internet where Ican grab new people right or
grab attention, because not alot of people are hanging out on
Substack looking for newcreators to follow, but then
once you find somebody that youlike on Substack, substack
(16:08):
looking for new creators tofollow, but then once you find
somebody that you like onSubstack, you're subscribed,
you're in, and so it's thatmodel right Of algo based
attention versus directattention.
This is why newsletters are sobig and sorry.
Just also to mention eventslike we had Giancarlo Bizarro
from Crooked come on, he's theirVP of sales.
They just launched CrookedCon,they just launched their own
political podcast conference,and so I think we're seeing
(16:31):
people build out communities andthat's through direct
communication and widercommunication on the platforms
where everybody hangs out.
Sam Sethi (16:39):
I agree.
Now, at the London podcast show, you hosted a panel on AI as
well, so where does AI for youfit in, all of the things that
are going on within podcasting?
Norma Jean Belenky (16:51):
Great question and, yes, I did lead a
panel on AI.
I lead many things on manythings.
I think AI is a veryinteresting one because, as
human beings, we can stilldetect and kind of feel when
it's fake.
Right, you can tell when you'relistening to something or
you're reading a LinkedIn post.
That's just a little bit toorobotic.
And also, you know, not enoughpeople are experimenting with
(17:15):
their AI and training it in theway that they should.
A lot of people are using itlike you would Google, right and
so I think it's reallyimportant to evaluate your
relationship with the AI thatyou use, because it's also one
of those things where you knowyou can create something with AI
quickly, but does that meanit's good?
I think that that's a questionyou have to ask yourself and
(17:36):
that your audience will veryquickly help you discern.
Sam Sethi (17:39):
Do you think we'll get beyond the creepy line, as I
call it, where AI hosts?
Because right now AI is reallygood.
I mean, buzzsprout is oursponsor for Pod News Weekly
Review and they use AI to helpus with transcriptions and show
description titles and et cetera, which is laborious work.
Once you've done the fun audiorecording, it's that
(18:01):
post-production where you go oh,it'd be nice if someone can
help me do this part.
Oh, the AI can do quite a bitof it.
Great, so I see it comfortablyfitting there.
But there are companies who nowquite happily will put an AI
host voice.
Do you think that?
You know, would you feelcomfortable having a parasocial
(18:21):
relationship with an AI?
Would you feel comfortablelistening on a daily basis?
You know, could the Daily Beastbecome an AI host?
And would you feel comfortablelistening on a daily basis?
You know, could the Daily Beastbecome an AI host, and would
you feel comfortable?
Norma Jean Belenky (18:33):
I have to say you know there's a lot of
companies doing this.
Futuri has a product andfeature where radio stations can
create an AI DJ and some ofthose DJs have become popular
and have, you know, regularlistenership.
I think that it's a fine line.
I think it's important toexplain that if the sounds like
(18:57):
a person, a person, if it'smaybe an AI repair of your own
voice or you said the wrong date, you know, maybe like a
Descript, underlord situation, Ithink that's one thing.
But if you are creating apersona that is entirely
fabricated and portraying thatpersona as a real human beat and
(19:22):
say, hey, just FYI, this is AI.
I think currently, utilizing AIto reduce labor on things that
are going to cause a lot ofburnout within our podcasting
community, especially forindependent creators, is always
a good thing, right, that podfade is real and we see the
average creator get to sixepisodes and jump ship and we
really don't want that as anindustry.
(19:44):
Right?
How many great shows stop beingmade because somebody just kind
of got fatigue over editing,right, or got fatigue over
booking a guest or got fatigueover writing show notes?
Sam Sethi (19:56):
Yeah, so with the AI then you know, currently has a
nice place.
Should we be labeling, like wedo, explicit content in
podcasting?
Should we be labeling contentthat is AI generated?
Norma Jean Belenky (20:12):
That's an interesting question, you know.
I don't know what doesPodcasting 2.0 say about this
specifically?
Sam Sethi (20:21):
Well, at the moment there isn't a tag for it.
Within True Fans, my ownpodcast app, we do have an
option for creators that can saylook, this host is an AI
generated voice and label it andthen in the user settings you
can like you can, with explicit,say do not show me anything
that's explicit or do not showme anything that's AI hosted.
(20:43):
So we have built those options.
I'm hoping that they will beadopted, but not yet.
Norma Jean Belenky (20:49):
Yeah, I think it would be really nice to
have a tag that says AI, and Ialso think that the market's
going to determine that right.
I think it's going to be a freemarket moment of what are
people going to respond to.
I think we're already seeing iton social media, right On
TikTok and Instagram.
There's a lot of content outthere that's completely AI
generated and it still goesviral.
People still really enjoy itand watch it.
(21:11):
You know a lot of those likeReddit story rereads and a lot
of videos, I think, on TikTok,where you know a creator is just
green screening a video in thebackground and commenting on it.
A lot of those now are AI andthey're still getting views and
they're still, you know, beingable to perform, and so it's an
(21:31):
interesting landscape that we'rein.
Do I think we will eventuallymove toward regulation of some
sort, whether it'sself-regulation or external?
Yes, do I know what it willtake us to get there?
Sam Sethi (21:42):
No, Well, look, there's three stories I want to
cover with you now just get youropinion.
So the first one is the UKgovernment and to an extent, the
Australian government.
So in Australia they've nowrestricted under-16s access to
social media and in the UKthey've put age verification
bars now on content and soanything that's social media
(22:03):
driven pretty much.
Should podcasting now becomemore regulated?
I mean, it's been the wild wildwest of say what you want, do
what you want up until now.
And, yes, we have brand safetyadvocates who then, you know,
help brands say look, don't putyour ad against this podcast
because of whatever reason.
(22:23):
But the industry itself doesn'tself-police.
There's no limitation now withthese age verifications.
I was thinking, you know wetalked about ai and explicit
content but do we need to bemore granular?
Do we need to do like tv andfilm, so this is a u rating or
this is an r rating, or this isa plus 15 or whatever?
Should we be more granular now?
Norma Jean Belenky (22:46):
I think that that's a very complicated
question.
It sounds very straightforward,sam, but it's not, and I think
that's because podcasting well,podcasting is really one of the
last mediums that has completefree speech, for good or for bad
, right, and you know, as anAmerican, I have my thoughts on
free speech frequently from allover the world that talk about
(23:12):
how in their country, they'renot allowed to say certain
things, and how great is it thatwithin the US, but also within
podcasting as a medium, freespeech exists.
And so I think anytime you putlimitations on free speech, that
can be.
It can be complicated.
Do I think that the consumptionof media affects people's
(23:33):
brains, specifically youngpeople who have developing
brains?
Absolutely, there's beennumerous studies about this.
I believe there was also areport that was supposed to be
made classified that wasn't that.
I think TikTok, even one hour aday, can make you, you know,
more and more addicted andchange the chemistry of your
(23:55):
brain.
So I think you know when we'retalking about the actual
implications of it.
It can cause harm, and I thinkpodcasting is slightly different
because it's audio and you knowit is video too.
We can talk about that in asecond, but you know you're not
directly staring at a screen.
But that being said, humanbeings, on a biological level,
(24:15):
were not built to consume medialike this right.
We were not built to hear thevoices of many people we will
never meet many, many times aday and to have those voices
kind of impede our thoughts andcome at us at the same device or
through the same medium that wecommunicate with our loved ones
.
And so I think you know, whenwe're talking about the actual
(24:36):
use case of technology, that'sone thing, and when we're
talking about the actualregulation of it, that's another
.
Sam Sethi (24:42):
I only mentioned all of this because we know now,
with the advantage of hindsight,that social media was very
harmful to young people,especially to young women body
amorphism through falsefiltering of imagery,
self-harming and you knowFacebook knew this, they allowed
it, it was good for them, theymade money and we never
(25:05):
regulated them and they usedlobbying to get away with it to
a harmful and then we eventuallyregulated it.
Social media can be good but itcan have harm.
I think we know pornography isvery harmful to young men.
In the main it is, you know,again, putting false
expectations on.
You know the sexual nature ofrelationships, and I think we in
(25:28):
podcasting have some of that aswell.
I think we have people likeAndrew Tate who say things that
I think are very misogynisticand you know, and I go.
Should they be allowed to saywhat they say?
I mean, I've got a couple ofgodsons who, you know, have
thankfully corrected theiropinions on people like him, but
in their there are many youngmen who are incels, who believe
(25:54):
Andrew Tate, who take what hesays, and there's no regulation,
and so I don't like regulationand I don't like censorship and
I don't like the way that the UKgovernment is doing what it's
doing, but equally, I can seethe other side of the coin is we
can't allow another MarkZuckerberg, facebook,
unregulated social media harmfulplatform that takes a decade
(26:17):
before we all wake up to theharm that it's causing.
Norma Jean Belenky (26:21):
Absolutely.
I mean, I have to say I'mprobably on the inverse several
people explaining theirperspective of how they came
from countries that did not havefree media.
For me to be a little bit moreopen about speech that could
potentially be harmful, it's avery slippery slope.
I also think when you institutecontrols based on age, then
(26:45):
you're looking at people's ID,then you're looking at people's
data, and so in the digitalworld, it's a very fine line.
I also think when we're talkingabout youth, there's a parental
component that needs to beaddressed as well.
I remember when I was a kid,like you, had to obviously get
into the movie that was rated R,rated PG-13 or whatever, but
even if the ticker taker didn'tcare, that day, a lot of kids I
(27:06):
knew their parents said no andthey respected that, and so I
think it's very interesting tosee that fine line, and I also,
if I had my way, of course,harmful speech would not be
accessible to people who wouldbe harmed by it.
I also wonder about speech thatbenefits but isn't convenient,
maybe for organizations withinauthority.
It's a very fine line.
(27:27):
I do agree on the aggregatelevel.
I think that is probably morepopulation harming than not, and
it would be great to institutemore regulation, but at what
point does that affect anonymitywithin the medium?
Sam Sethi (27:39):
Yeah, and also, I'd say, deplatforming of people who
don't fit the current politicalparty's thinking, wherever you
may be.
Norma Jean Belenky (27:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's a slippery slope, it's a
slippery slope, it's a slipperyslope.
Sam Sethi (27:52):
Look, I don't have an answer, I just you know it's an
interesting question.
Norma Jean Belenky (27:55):
No, no, no.
It makes me nervous.
I mean, I also met some peopleat podcast show that I spoke
with that have a podcast withina specific ethnic community on
domestic violence and they havea lot of listenership and not a
lot of subscribers, and I thinkthat tells a story.
I think podcasting is maybe oneof the few ways that women
within their particular culturalcommunity can access domestic
(28:15):
violence resources.
Nobody knows they're listening,they're not subscribed, and so
I think that that anonymitystill has value.
At what cost, I don't think weknow yet.
Sam Sethi (28:25):
The last thing on this point is the young gay
community.
I've got a few gay friends mygodson's gay and I've spoken to
him about this and he said whenhe could not come out as a young
man, when he was in his 13, 14,15, and he was confused
accessing gay content wasimportant to him and being able
(28:45):
to talk to people in thatcommunity was important to him.
And I think in Australia, forexample, by gatekeeping
under-16s to content and again,age verification and that
self-identification if you haveto access that content, that
removes that anonymity.
I think these are the thingsthat we will see as the side
(29:06):
effects of what governmentsthink to do to regulate.
Norma Jean Belenky (29:10):
Yeah, I mean I think it'll be interesting.
Let's see what happens whenthey institute the policy.
Hopefully it won't affectLGBTQIA youth that are very at
risk because of a lack ofsupport.
And also, as a straight person,I've never had to come out of
the closet Right, and so I thinkthat just being different in
any way in society can causeadditional pressure, and so I
think it's very important foreverybody to have resources, and
(29:31):
also we are seeing the harms,so it's an interesting time.
Sam Sethi (29:35):
I've come out of a closet but that's only because I
was sleepwalking drunk andwalked into one.
But anyway, that's anotherstory.
Now, moving on the other storythat I'd love your opinion and
thoughts on are Wondery.
Now I talk about Apple beingslow as a snail in terms of
evolving with new feature andfunction.
And then you go to Amazon and Ithink they're rigor mortis dead
(29:58):
half the time.
They literally have a podcastplatform, but Amazon Music
doesn't mention the word podcast.
Audible is part of Amazon, butmost people may or may not know
that.
And then you've got Wondery,which is also part of Amazon,
and I just think, and I've that.
And then you've got Wondery,which is also part of Amazon,
and I just think, and I've saidit before, it's mini-thiefdoms,
those corporate directors oftheir little thiefdoms who never
(30:19):
the twain shall meet.
Yo, I'm going to run my littleempire, you run your empire, and
it's an internal, outwardstrategy.
We do not come across as asingle platform.
So do you think now, withwhat's happened, wondery is now
becoming part of Audible, genSargent has been let go what are
(30:40):
Amazon doing?
I mean, what is their thoughtprocess here?
Norma Jean Belenky (30:46):
Gosh, I'd love to see an internal memo.
Sam Sethi (30:49):
I'd love to see the Epstein list.
I'll see that before I see theinternal memo Interesting.
Norma Jean Belenky (30:56):
You know, I think that Amazon specifically
had a very unique strategy ofrunning in the red for many,
many years by spending a lot ofmoney on growth and acquisition.
And when you grow that quicklyand you acquire many companies
that quickly, the integration isgoing to maybe be more
segmented or take more time forthe dust to settle.
You see a trend, you acquireright.
(31:17):
It's build, bury or buy, and soI think when you're that big a
company, you really have themeans to do that.
So I think you know Amazon'saudio strategy as a whole has
never been cohesive.
We're looking at that from thatstandpoint, if we, if we look
back on it in hindsight and whenwe look at Wondry, you know
(31:39):
that acquisition was made at atime of acquisitions.
That was a time where if theydidn't buy Wondry, somebody else
probably would.
Sam Sethi (31:46):
And they bought it pretty cheap, actually $300
million.
Norma Jean Belenky (31:51):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
But I mean you look at what wasgoing on at that time and you
know, I think it's veryinteresting to see, now that
we're in this post-acquisitionbubble, what's happening with a
lot of these companies.
Maybe they're not seeing thekind of profit they want.
Maybe, you know, wondry isn'thaving the kind of subscriber
base that they wanted it to haveand that's either through the
(32:12):
market dictating or, you know,lack of resources on their end.
We'll never know.
You know, obviously everybody'shearts go out to the 110 people
who are looking for work now.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing as an industry.
I've seen so many posts.
This just happened in the lastlike what?
36 hours, and so Ashley Carmen,I think, had the scoop on that
and I think once that came out,you know there's been nothing
(32:35):
but a flood of.
If I can help, let me know.
If anybody from Wondery seesthis and, you know, can reach
out, you know, let me know ifthere's any way I can help.
I think that that's reallyimportant as an industry that
we're seeing, and so that'sreally positive and great to
hear.
I think that really good worktakes time and labor and it's
not always celebrity interview.
(32:56):
You know quick to record, quickto come out content and it may
make just as much money or lessmoney or more money than that
celebrity less expensiveproduction makes.
And so when you're looking atstrict ROI, you know these are
the kind of conversations andcuts as an industry we're going
to see from large companies whomaybe are in podcasting for ROI.
Sam Sethi (33:21):
I wonder whether it's that Stephen Colbert thing.
Maybe the team's got too bigand fat because we said, you
know, Patreon and Substack andsubscription-based monetization
is the way forward, I think, andWondery Plus seems to be
already in that ballpark of asubscription-based model.
So I'm surprised.
Norma Jean Belenky (33:39):
I mean yes and no.
Yes, I just have to say thisreally quick, though when you're
talking about Patreon andSubstack, those are
creator-driven platforms.
Yeah, was Wondery Plus acreator-driven platform?
Sam Sethi (33:49):
I don't know, but it was.
It was its own subscriptionbased model, and so if you want
to, but, but, but.
Norma Jean Belenky (33:55):
But the shows that were on Wondery
weren't?
Hey, follow me on Wondery,follow me on Wondery.
Follow the way that if you havea sub stack and you're an
independent creator, you willnever shut up about that sub
stack.
Right, I hadn't.
I mean, I saw the occasionallike oh, listen to us on Wondry
Plus, but I didn't see the kindof evangelism that those other
creator subscriptionmonetization platforms have.
Sam Sethi (34:17):
Yeah, and I think that there's a difference there.
I'd say, if it was you or Iwho's created our own media
channel on Substack, we are theowner, and I think Wondry, being
a corporate within a corporatewithin a corporate, is basically
not that bothered about it.
Oh yeah, we got the platform,but kind of if you want to be
(34:37):
there, and I think they wouldn'thave pushed it as hard as if
you were an individual creator,so maybe that's it.
Ok.
Look, let's move on fromWondery.
Let's look at a couple of otherthings that I know you've got
some knowledge in, given yourbackground.
Riverside just announced thatthey're going to do hosting.
Now, you came from a hostingbackground, so I'm hoping that
(34:58):
you have the answer and theinsight that we're all looking
for, which is why are Riversidegetting into hosting?
Norma Jean Belenky (35:05):
Oh, I mean.
To me it makes total sense.
That's a very natural next step.
For them, hosting is a reallyfun game because once you get a
hosting subscriber it is veryeasy to keep them subscribed and
keep their money.
Migrating from one hostingplatform to the next is tedious
and inefficient.
So that's number one.
Sam Sethi (35:23):
Number two by design, by the way.
Norma Jean Belenky (35:25):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Sure, of course, by design,nobody wants to give up a
subscriber.
I mean, pay me 120 bucks a year, forever, please.
And also when you look at theirproduct I love Riverside.
We record pod biz on Riverside.
So shout out to Kendall and theteam we love them.
It's a great platform.
I think that it's a very naturalnext step.
(35:46):
When you look at that companyand how it's growing, you know,
it appears to me they've taken alot of VC money.
They have a lot of new rolesthat they've released.
Usually, when a company gets achunk of VC money, they're going
to hire, and so they're in thatphase, and so they're going to
grow and they're going to keepgrowing and keep hiring until
they profit or run out of runway.
(36:07):
I think that that's how itworks when you take VC money,
and so we're seeing that growthright now.
Considering how easy it is torecord and edit a podcast and to
create marketing assets forthat podcast within their
platform, it makes a lot ofsense that the next natural step
would be hosting.
It's a very easy add onmonetization, wise, right.
(36:30):
You say okay, for an extracouple of bucks a month, you can
also host with us.
And you're thinking, oh, I canjust have more stuff in one
place, and I think all peopleare inherently lazy and so the
more things you can have in oneplace, the better.
And they have built a followingof users for their recording
platform and I'm sure many ofthose users maybe it's for a new
(36:52):
show, maybe it's for new userswill be excited about that
product.
It's a really smart move ontheir part for sure.
Sam Sethi (37:01):
I'm sure Descript will follow suit.
So what does this mean forhosts?
I mean, I talk about thetechnology escalator where, you
know, hosting five, 10 years agowas at the bleeding edge of
technology, with Libsyn comingout first with it and now
RSScom's co-founder, albertoBotella, said hosting is just a
commodity, pretty much, and it'sthe services around hosting
(37:23):
that we make our money from.
Are we going to see?
Look, spotify has made hostingfree anyway, because you have to
put your subscribed version ofyour podcast with Apple.
So they are a host by default,right?
They just don't want to say it.
And YouTube, in many ways, isdoing the same.
So what does it mean for hosts?
(37:44):
Are they going to be able tocompete if everyone's going to
eat their lunch and become ahost?
Norma Jean Belenky (37:55):
I think we're seeing this as the
industry develops.
Hosting is all about features.
I think Alberto is very correctand on the money with that.
He's also coming up on the show.
He'll be on the show in acouple of months, but it's
definitely something weabsolutely, absolutely and a big
fan of rsscom as well.
Alberto and Ben are both great.
I do think that when people askme like, oh, I'm going to start
a podcast, where do I go?
You know, my mind goes to whatfeatures does the hosting
(38:19):
platform have that this personwants, and so I think we really
are in the land of features.
Some of those really earlyhosting companies have been able
to establish great features andbuild in things like
directories, like editing, likeAI, and so you're seeing
features that really enhance thecreator experience.
Like you said, spotify is madehosting free, which is not
(38:40):
entirely free.
It's like free to a point,minimally free, free with
limitations, and so I think it'ssomething where you know, when
we're talking about hosting,it's the value that the
podcaster is getting.
Do they have multiple shows?
Do they need a network plan?
A lot of hosts don't offer that.
(39:00):
What are their downloads like?
Do they want AI built in?
These are all questions, and Ithink that when you're looking
for a podcast host, that's whatyou're going to ask yourself.
If somebody told you hey, ifyou're going to make a podcast,
use Riverside.
And then you go to Riversideand they're like, hey, we also
have hosting, that's an easysell for Riverside.
That's like shooting fish in abarrel.
It's a very smart natural stepfor them, for sure, because they
(39:22):
already have the feature ofhaving an incredible recording
platform.
James Cridland (39:24):
Norma Jean Belenke.
An excellent interview wouldhave lasted a little bit longer.
We used a slightly differentrecording platform to record
that and it managed to lose thelast 10 minutes.
Ah well, there you go, normaJean.
Thank you so much for takingpart in that, and Sam as well.
That's it for this week.
You can support the show bystreaming sats.
You can give us feedback usingthe Buzzsprout fan mail link in
(39:46):
our show notes.
You can send us a super commentor become a power supporter,
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(40:08):
Tell your friends and grow theshow and support us, and support
us.
The Pod News Weekly.
Review will return next week.
Keep listening.
The last word in podcasting news.
This is the Pod News WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.
James Cridland (00:14):
Hello, I'm James Cridland.
I'm the editor of Pod News.
Sam and I are away this week,but we don't want to leave you
empty handed, so we thought we'dgive you this.
This is a great interview withNorma Jean Belenke, who Sam
caught up with last week.
She's just launched a newpodcast called Podbiz all about
how podcasts make money, andit's a great listen.
(00:36):
Enjoy it.
This podcast is sponsored byBuzzsprout, with the tools,
support and community to ensureyou keep podcasting.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting with buzzsproutcom.
Sam Sethi (00:48):
Hello and welcome back to Pod News Weekly Review.
We have a friend of the showhere.
Her name's Norma Jean Belenki.
She is based over in Portugalat the moment.
You wouldn't guess that by heraccent.
Norma hello, how are you?
Norma Jean Belenky (01:00):
Hi Sam, it's a pleasure to be here.
I'm doing great.
Now, you've just launched a newpodcast called Podbiz.
Tell me more about Podbiz.
Yes, podbiz is here to answerone big question when is the
money in podcasting Show?
Sam Sethi (01:15):
me the money Exactly.
Norma Jean Belenky (01:22):
Show me the money.
Show me the money Exactly.
So we're really excited to haveconversations.
I partnered with a formercolleague, john Kiernan from the
Podhouse Productions, and whatPodbiz is really here to do is
to have transparentconversations on monetization
within the podcasting industry.
So everybody's first thought isads and of course, we have all
the ads folks on.
We're here to talk about ads.
We're here to talk with all thead nerds.
We're here to talk about allthe acronyms, and then we've
(01:45):
also had a lot of really amazingguests talking about salary
transparency and podcasting,talking about how they package
their podcast and theirofferings for clients, what the
strategy is.
Around that, we've hadindependent creators come on who
are getting, on average, 1200downloads an episode, who are
making six figures from theirpodcast.
We have some incredibleepisodes coming up.
We've just launched, but wehave quite a few in the can.
(02:07):
So I'm trying not to talk abouteverybody who's been on the show
but whose episode isn't out yet, because it's just too exciting
.
It's one of those things whereyou just want everyone to know
all the things that you know,and we've been so lucky.
Everyone has been reallygenerous with their time.
Everyone we've asked has saidyes, and I think we all really
want to have these conversationsand hear these conversations.
Right, how much are you making?
What's a fair salary to ask forIf you are a production editor
(02:31):
or a story editor?
How much are people makingwithin the podcasting software
space?
How much are ads running forand what's the gold standard in
ads?
And I think that people reallywant to have these conversations
and sometimes people are reallyshy to admit what they don't
know, and I have a history interms of my previous experience
of asking all the dumb questions, so other people don't have to,
(02:51):
even when I know the answer.
It's really important to makethings accessible and inclusive
within podcasting because we arean open medium and there is
room for everybody.
Sam Sethi (02:59):
I've got so many questions off the back of that
already, right?
So let's break this down offthe back of that already, right?
So let's break this down.
First of all, stephen Colberthad 200 staff making his show,
the Late Late Show, and it cost100 million and he was losing 40
million, and so none of that'ssustainable, right?
The old TV gatekeepers, I think, are going to go away.
I think we are seeing the riseof YouTube-based podcasts, and
(03:23):
so, in terms of what's anacceptable size?
When you look at somebody likeStephen Bartlett with Diary of a
CEO roughly, I don't know, he'sgot a staff of anywhere between
20 and 50, depends who you askwhat is an acceptable size for a
hit team, then what would yousay?
You know the team should be.
What's the acceptable paymentlevels?
Norma Jean Belenky (03:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, how long is a piece ofstring?
Number one I think it's reallyimportant to make sure that your
team is equitably compensatedfor the work that they do.
I think sometimes, if it's yourface on it or you're the one
selling it or it's your businessand your name on the door,
people have a bit of anentitlement around that, which
is important, right.
And also, as the industryemerges, that rising tide is
(04:08):
here to lift all boats, and sowe had an opportunity to speak
to Aaron from AIR, theAssociation of Independent Radio
Professionals, and they publisha rate card every year of what
those jobs should be paid, andso I think that that's a really
important statistic fortransparency in our industry.
I'm not going to tell you whatthey are because I want you to
(04:28):
listen to the episode teaser,and I also think you know in
terms of the staff of a show,it's important to make profit
plague of creators, either atsmall production companies or
independent one man bandcreators get so overwhelmed by
(04:49):
trying to do everything, and Ithink everybody listening has
seen that trend where, whensocial media came out 15 years
ago and started to be importantand profitable for companies,
they let the intern do it allthe social media all the time.
And now, running social mediais depending on what kind of
company you work for.
One person can run severalaccounts, or one person can run
(05:11):
one account, or many people canrun one account, depending on
the size of your account,depending on the kind of content
you're putting out.
I think that flight studio isdoing a tremendous job, and the
thing that is important, insteadof the number of people on
their staff, is that the qualityis consistent.
The reason people want to watchtheir shows is because they're
(05:32):
excited, they want to hear whatthe guests have to say.
The clips are eye-grabbing,ear-grabbing, catching your
attention at every juncture.
And while that can seem likeit's super easy to do, that
formula takes labor.
It takes time to test andthey're really known for testing
media.
They know, hey, we're actuallygoing to come at this with a
(05:54):
curious mindset and we're notgoing to come at this pretending
we know.
We're going to actually let themarket and the data show us
what works, and so that can takepeople power, and I think it's
something where we can all sayhow many people are you keeping
on staff?
Did it a revenue?
And, at the same time, goodwork takes labor.
Sam Sethi (06:12):
Yeah, it does.
And the secret to the eclipseis I heard it from Stephen
Bartlett which is they've got apanel who listened to the show
before it goes out and they hitthe space bar at the thing they
find most interesting and thenthey look at the histogram from
the whole panel and the peak iswhere they put the clips out.
So it's really interesting howthey do that.
Norma Jean Belenky (06:32):
Yeah, and that data.
The time to do that researchfor each episode is labor
intensive.
He's got a team doing that andit pays off.
Sam Sethi (06:39):
Yeah, it does.
Three million daily views now.
So, yeah, they're doing verywell.
Now, advertising One of thetrends that I think I'm
observing and maybe you can tellme whether I'm crazy or not is
I'm seeing more content goingbehind paywalls, quality content
going to Substack to Patreon,which means that there's less
(06:59):
advertising.
We've also seen that Spotifyand YouTube have asked for DAI
to be removed out of episodes sothey can inject their own, so
creators are now putting contentup and putting it behind
paywalls and, as you said, joeBudden, I think is making a
million dollars a month fromPatreon.
Going to struggle Is theaverage rate.
(07:28):
The CPM dropping Is what JamesCridland sometimes has said.
Those people that can affordthe subscription pay for no ads
and those people that can't earads.
So if you're listening to ads,it's only because you're not
either paying or you can'tafford to not have ads, and
isn't that the people that theadvertisers don't want to reach?
And isn't the people who canpay the people that the
(07:49):
advertisers do want to reach?
Norma Jean Belenky (07:51):
You know, I think if you're McDonald's you
want to reach everybody, and soI think that there is a market
for every advertiser.
It just really depends on theproduct and the placement fit.
I do see trends of that splitbetween subscriber and free base
of listeners, and I think thatthe industry is evolving in that
(08:12):
direction.
I was really surprised by thenumber of people who came onto
Podbiz and just went hard onsubscriptions, people who you'd
think like talk about adsspecifically.
I mean we just had BrianBarletta on and I was thinking
Brian would just go on an adstangent and he really talked a
lot about subscriptions, and soI think we're seeing the direct
monetization models work and soanytime you have that kind of
(08:33):
industry disruption, there'sgonna be a ripple effect toward
other monetization models.
Are ads going anywhere?
No, not at all.
Sam Sethi (08:42):
So from your perspective, then, you're saying
that there's still a goodbalance between ad supported
podcasting and subscriptionsupported podcasting.
Norma Jean Belenky (08:50):
I think we're currently seeing a good
balance.
I think the market willdetermine what kind of balance
we have in the next 18 months.
You know, I think podcastingmoves in cyclical phases and
every 18 months there seems tobe new trends.
And currently the thing thateverybody's talking about
besides video is subscriptions,because we're starting to see
large platforms implement them.
(09:11):
Apple podcasts really came outof the gate and said hey, we've
integrated subscriptions.
They had a lot of hostingplatform partnerships enable
those subscriptions from thebackend.
So as an independent creator,you could just upload an episode
specific for your subscriptionbase.
Maybe that was an ad freeepisode, Maybe that was an
extended episode, a bonusepisode answering questions from
(09:31):
fans or subscribers, that kindof thing and so Apple Podcasts
really made it accessible fromthe platform side with their
platform partners, and then thatripple effect is what we're
seeing now, I believe.
Sam Sethi (09:41):
Now I'm going to ask you a couple of questions based
on stuff that I tend to work onand wonder if it's reached over
to Portugal and to NormaJean-Balenke yet.
So, in terms of making money,one of the areas that the
podcast in 2.0 community looksat is micropayments and Bitcoin
based micropayments, called Sats.
Is that something that you'rehearing from anybody?
(10:04):
Do you think that's anothermonetary stream or is it just
off the radar?
Norma Jean Belenky (10:09):
I mean, it's definitely something that has
crossed my path, but it's notcommonly mentioned, and I also
think these things are nicheuntil they're not.
People ask me all the time I'vebeen asked on several podcasts
about podcasting what my biggestregret is, and I have to tell
everybody I only allow myself toever have one regret at a time.
So if I give up my currentregret, I've got to have a
bigger one, and the one regretI've had for a good long chunk
(10:31):
of time is that I didn't buyBitcoin in 2012.
So I was like fake money,what's that crypto?
Huh?
And I think that crypto basedproducts, in terms of value for
value, really feed into theethos of that currency.
And I think that crypto-basedproducts, in terms of value for
value, really feed into theethos of that currency.
And I think, as time goes on,as we're seeing
subscription-based models andvalue for value grow because
we've also had a lot of guestscome on speaking about value for
(10:53):
value, which I know you know,true fans you guys are really
putting at the forefront.
I think we'll start to see thatmore and more.
Do I know the pace?
No, I think it would take acouple of larger creators who
have a fan base to specificallyelicit that call to action, to
get big movement at this stage.
Sam Sethi (11:13):
Yeah, I agree, I think you know I worked for
Netscape and I've always said itreminds me of when the browser
first came out and we tried toexplain the concept of what a
URL was, and HTTP and then WWW.
And I remember people lookingat me going and we tried to
explain the concept of what aURL was, and HTTP and then www.
And I remember people lookingat me going you're talking
Swahili, sam, I have no ideawhat you're talking about.
And of course now it's commonlexicon, but it's a wallet,
(11:35):
they're micropayments, they callsats.
They're not hard concepts, butthey are till you know what they
mean.
Norma Jean Belenky (11:41):
It's not even that they're hard concepts.
I think it's a behavioralquestion.
When is people's behavior?
Sam Sethi (11:52):
going to change, and how do you change the behavior
of many people at the same time?
So I think one of the thingsthat's interesting this week
Spotify has just increased thesubscription in Europe again.
They haven't done it in the USyet, but they have in Europe.
One of the reports that cameout from Edison Research was
there is about a $5 priceelasticity where people will
eventually say no, that's justtoo expensive and they will drop
(12:14):
off.
We haven't reached that pointyet, but I think that's the
tipping point where I hope andbelieve that people will then
look for alternative ways ofmonetizing their podcast or
listening to a podcast withmonetization, as opposed to
paying a ongoing subscription.
So let's say, spotify becomes$30 a month, would you pay that?
Norma Jean Belenky (12:36):
I probably would, to be honest, because I
have to look at it for myclients, right, so it's a
business expense for me.
I think Spotify has madethemselves indispensable because
they have incorporated manydifferent products into one app
Music, yes, podcasts, yes,audiobooks.
Now they're pushing real hard,and so I think you know the fact
(12:57):
that they are trying to competedirectly with YouTube.
They're not competing withother companies within the
podcasting space as much.
Many companies withinpodcasting, whether that's on
the software side and on thatplatform side or more on the
directory side, look up toSpotify, and Spotify is not
looking at us.
Spotify is looking at YouTube,I would assume.
Sam Sethi (13:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, they are so a wannabe YouTube right
now.
Shout out to the Spice Girls.
Now, beyond that, what do youthen see, based on all the
interviews you've done, where doyou think, in six months, 12
months, the monetization?
Where is the money?
Is it going to stay purely anad driven market, subscription
(13:37):
driven market?
Are you seeing other modelsthat people are talking about
then?
Norma Jean Belenky (13:41):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We're seeing a lot of variedmonetization.
It's interesting because adsnumber one I want to say
subscriptions from everybodythat I've talked to without you
know any significant likesurveys is the number two ways
people are talking aboutmonetization.
Other things that are coming upare value for value, which is
really big.
Events Merchandise is still inthe running, you know.
(14:04):
I think also, having additionalvalue for your listeners, in
whatever form that comes in, isstill important.
My media brand and their mediabrand is going to sell packages
(14:27):
across their socials that theyare boosting or that they're
putting a lot of energy andintention into, and that's going
to come across also in theirnewsletter.
I mean, obviously, newslettersare really big, but when we're
talking about monetization fromshows, it's looking like, you
know, apart from the big adfolks and the subscription folks
, it's looking at how can Ipackage this and what are the
(14:48):
different ways, how can I getcreative in what I'm selling and
how I'm providing value to thebusinesses that want my audience
and, as a result, can supportmy show.
Sam Sethi (14:59):
Yeah, and I think, with what you're saying there,
it's that multimodal capability,how to reach your fans.
So I'm looking at companieslike Substack, where I think
they do a really good job.
They give newsletters, livepodcasting, video.
Domain customization I thinkthis is the Achilles heel of
(15:19):
YouTube and Spotify, because ifI build my business brand around
Spotify, let's say I go all inand I want to be a Spotify.
Whatever video creator or I goto YouTube, I can't customize
the platform and I certainlycan't set a domain name that is
(15:42):
my own specific domain.
I liken going to Spotify andYouTube in the same way when you
had your own website or blog,going to Facebook and building
Facebook pages.
Right.
Norma Jean Belenky (15:47):
Absolutely.
It's an external platform thateverybody's on.
So I think it's this delicatebalance of the internet that's
mine versus the internet where Ican grab new people right or
grab attention, because not alot of people are hanging out on
Substack looking for newcreators to follow, but then
once you find somebody that youlike on Substack, substack
(16:08):
looking for new creators tofollow, but then once you find
somebody that you like onSubstack, you're subscribed,
you're in, and so it's thatmodel right Of algo based
attention versus directattention.
This is why newsletters are sobig and sorry.
Just also to mention eventslike we had Giancarlo Bizarro
from Crooked come on, he's theirVP of sales.
They just launched CrookedCon,they just launched their own
political podcast conference,and so I think we're seeing
(16:31):
people build out communities andthat's through direct
communication and widercommunication on the platforms
where everybody hangs out.
Sam Sethi (16:39):
I agree.
Now, at the London podcast show, you hosted a panel on AI as
well, so where does AI for youfit in, all of the things that
are going on within podcasting?
Norma Jean Belenky (16:51):
Great question and, yes, I did lead a
panel on AI.
I lead many things on manythings.
I think AI is a veryinteresting one because, as
human beings, we can stilldetect and kind of feel when
it's fake.
Right, you can tell when you'relistening to something or
you're reading a LinkedIn post.
That's just a little bit toorobotic.
And also, you know, not enoughpeople are experimenting with
(17:15):
their AI and training it in theway that they should.
A lot of people are using itlike you would Google, right and
so I think it's reallyimportant to evaluate your
relationship with the AI thatyou use, because it's also one
of those things where you knowyou can create something with AI
quickly, but does that meanit's good?
I think that that's a questionyou have to ask yourself and
(17:36):
that your audience will veryquickly help you discern.
Sam Sethi (17:39):
Do you think we'll get beyond the creepy line, as I
call it, where AI hosts?
Because right now AI is reallygood.
I mean, buzzsprout is oursponsor for Pod News Weekly
Review and they use AI to helpus with transcriptions and show
description titles and et cetera, which is laborious work.
Once you've done the fun audiorecording, it's that
(18:01):
post-production where you go oh,it'd be nice if someone can
help me do this part.
Oh, the AI can do quite a bitof it.
Great, so I see it comfortablyfitting there.
But there are companies who nowquite happily will put an AI
host voice.
Do you think that?
You know, would you feelcomfortable having a parasocial
(18:21):
relationship with an AI?
Would you feel comfortablelistening on a daily basis?
You know, could the Daily Beastbecome an AI host?
And would you feel comfortablelistening on a daily basis?
You know, could the Daily Beastbecome an AI host, and would
you feel comfortable?
Norma Jean Belenky (18:33):
I have to say you know there's a lot of
companies doing this.
Futuri has a product andfeature where radio stations can
create an AI DJ and some ofthose DJs have become popular
and have, you know, regularlistenership.
I think that it's a fine line.
I think it's important toexplain that if the sounds like
(18:57):
a person, a person, if it'smaybe an AI repair of your own
voice or you said the wrong date, you know, maybe like a
Descript, underlord situation, Ithink that's one thing.
But if you are creating apersona that is entirely
fabricated and portraying thatpersona as a real human beat and
(19:22):
say, hey, just FYI, this is AI.
I think currently, utilizing AIto reduce labor on things that
are going to cause a lot ofburnout within our podcasting
community, especially forindependent creators, is always
a good thing, right, that podfade is real and we see the
average creator get to sixepisodes and jump ship and we
really don't want that as anindustry.
(19:44):
Right?
How many great shows stop beingmade because somebody just kind
of got fatigue over editing,right, or got fatigue over
booking a guest or got fatigueover writing show notes?
Sam Sethi (19:56):
Yeah, so with the AI then you know, currently has a
nice place.
Should we be labeling, like wedo, explicit content in
podcasting?
Should we be labeling contentthat is AI generated?
Norma Jean Belenky (20:12):
That's an interesting question, you know.
I don't know what doesPodcasting 2.0 say about this
specifically?
Sam Sethi (20:21):
Well, at the moment there isn't a tag for it.
Within True Fans, my ownpodcast app, we do have an
option for creators that can saylook, this host is an AI
generated voice and label it andthen in the user settings you
can like you can, with explicit,say do not show me anything
that's explicit or do not showme anything that's AI hosted.
(20:43):
So we have built those options.
I'm hoping that they will beadopted, but not yet.
Norma Jean Belenky (20:49):
Yeah, I think it would be really nice to
have a tag that says AI, and Ialso think that the market's
going to determine that right.
I think it's going to be a freemarket moment of what are
people going to respond to.
I think we're already seeing iton social media, right On
TikTok and Instagram.
There's a lot of content outthere that's completely AI
generated and it still goesviral.
People still really enjoy itand watch it.
(21:11):
You know a lot of those likeReddit story rereads and a lot
of videos, I think, on TikTok,where you know a creator is just
green screening a video in thebackground and commenting on it.
A lot of those now are AI andthey're still getting views and
they're still, you know, beingable to perform, and so it's an
(21:31):
interesting landscape that we'rein.
Do I think we will eventuallymove toward regulation of some
sort, whether it'sself-regulation or external?
Yes, do I know what it willtake us to get there?
Sam Sethi (21:42):
No, Well, look, there's three stories I want to
cover with you now just get youropinion.
So the first one is the UKgovernment and to an extent, the
Australian government.
So in Australia they've nowrestricted under-16s access to
social media and in the UKthey've put age verification
bars now on content and soanything that's social media
(22:03):
driven pretty much.
Should podcasting now becomemore regulated?
I mean, it's been the wild wildwest of say what you want, do
what you want up until now.
And, yes, we have brand safetyadvocates who then, you know,
help brands say look, don't putyour ad against this podcast
because of whatever reason.
(22:23):
But the industry itself doesn'tself-police.
There's no limitation now withthese age verifications.
I was thinking, you know wetalked about ai and explicit
content but do we need to bemore granular?
Do we need to do like tv andfilm, so this is a u rating or
this is an r rating, or this isa plus 15 or whatever?
Should we be more granular now?
Norma Jean Belenky (22:46):
I think that that's a very complicated
question.
It sounds very straightforward,sam, but it's not, and I think
that's because podcasting well,podcasting is really one of the
last mediums that has completefree speech, for good or for bad
, right, and you know, as anAmerican, I have my thoughts on
free speech frequently from allover the world that talk about
(23:12):
how in their country, they'renot allowed to say certain
things, and how great is it thatwithin the US, but also within
podcasting as a medium, freespeech exists.
And so I think anytime you putlimitations on free speech, that
can be.
It can be complicated.
Do I think that the consumptionof media affects people's
(23:33):
brains, specifically youngpeople who have developing
brains?
Absolutely, there's beennumerous studies about this.
I believe there was also areport that was supposed to be
made classified that wasn't that.
I think TikTok, even one hour aday, can make you, you know,
more and more addicted andchange the chemistry of your
(23:55):
brain.
So I think you know when we'retalking about the actual
implications of it.
It can cause harm, and I thinkpodcasting is slightly different
because it's audio and you knowit is video too.
We can talk about that in asecond, but you know you're not
directly staring at a screen.
But that being said, humanbeings, on a biological level,
(24:15):
were not built to consume medialike this right.
We were not built to hear thevoices of many people we will
never meet many, many times aday and to have those voices
kind of impede our thoughts andcome at us at the same device or
through the same medium that wecommunicate with our loved ones
.
And so I think you know, whenwe're talking about the actual
(24:36):
use case of technology, that'sone thing, and when we're
talking about the actualregulation of it, that's another
.
Sam Sethi (24:42):
I only mentioned all of this because we know now,
with the advantage of hindsight,that social media was very
harmful to young people,especially to young women body
amorphism through falsefiltering of imagery,
self-harming and you knowFacebook knew this, they allowed
it, it was good for them, theymade money and we never
(25:05):
regulated them and they usedlobbying to get away with it to
a harmful and then we eventuallyregulated it.
Social media can be good but itcan have harm.
I think we know pornography isvery harmful to young men.
In the main it is, you know,again, putting false
expectations on.
You know the sexual nature ofrelationships, and I think we in
(25:28):
podcasting have some of that aswell.
I think we have people likeAndrew Tate who say things that
I think are very misogynisticand you know, and I go.
Should they be allowed to saywhat they say?
I mean, I've got a couple ofgodsons who, you know, have
thankfully corrected theiropinions on people like him, but
in their there are many youngmen who are incels, who believe
(25:54):
Andrew Tate, who take what hesays, and there's no regulation,
and so I don't like regulationand I don't like censorship and
I don't like the way that the UKgovernment is doing what it's
doing, but equally, I can seethe other side of the coin is we
can't allow another MarkZuckerberg, facebook,
unregulated social media harmfulplatform that takes a decade
(26:17):
before we all wake up to theharm that it's causing.
Norma Jean Belenky (26:21):
Absolutely.
I mean, I have to say I'mprobably on the inverse several
people explaining theirperspective of how they came
from countries that did not havefree media.
For me to be a little bit moreopen about speech that could
potentially be harmful, it's avery slippery slope.
I also think when you institutecontrols based on age, then
(26:45):
you're looking at people's ID,then you're looking at people's
data, and so in the digitalworld, it's a very fine line.
I also think when we're talkingabout youth, there's a parental
component that needs to beaddressed as well.
I remember when I was a kid,like you, had to obviously get
into the movie that was rated R,rated PG-13 or whatever, but
even if the ticker taker didn'tcare, that day, a lot of kids I
(27:06):
knew their parents said no andthey respected that, and so I
think it's very interesting tosee that fine line, and I also,
if I had my way, of course,harmful speech would not be
accessible to people who wouldbe harmed by it.
I also wonder about speech thatbenefits but isn't convenient,
maybe for organizations withinauthority.
It's a very fine line.
(27:27):
I do agree on the aggregatelevel.
I think that is probably morepopulation harming than not, and
it would be great to institutemore regulation, but at what
point does that affect anonymitywithin the medium?
Sam Sethi (27:39):
Yeah, and also, I'd say, deplatforming of people who
don't fit the current politicalparty's thinking, wherever you
may be.
Norma Jean Belenky (27:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's a slippery slope, it's a
slippery slope, it's a slipperyslope.
Sam Sethi (27:52):
Look, I don't have an answer, I just you know it's an
interesting question.
Norma Jean Belenky (27:55):
No, no, no.
It makes me nervous.
I mean, I also met some peopleat podcast show that I spoke
with that have a podcast withina specific ethnic community on
domestic violence and they havea lot of listenership and not a
lot of subscribers, and I thinkthat tells a story.
I think podcasting is maybe oneof the few ways that women
within their particular culturalcommunity can access domestic
(28:15):
violence resources.
Nobody knows they're listening,they're not subscribed, and so
I think that that anonymitystill has value.
At what cost, I don't think weknow yet.
Sam Sethi (28:25):
The last thing on this point is the young gay
community.
I've got a few gay friends mygodson's gay and I've spoken to
him about this and he said whenhe could not come out as a young
man, when he was in his 13, 14,15, and he was confused
accessing gay content wasimportant to him and being able
(28:45):
to talk to people in thatcommunity was important to him.
And I think in Australia, forexample, by gatekeeping
under-16s to content and again,age verification and that
self-identification if you haveto access that content, that
removes that anonymity.
I think these are the thingsthat we will see as the side
(29:06):
effects of what governmentsthink to do to regulate.
Norma Jean Belenky (29:10):
Yeah, I mean I think it'll be interesting.
Let's see what happens whenthey institute the policy.
Hopefully it won't affectLGBTQIA youth that are very at
risk because of a lack ofsupport.
And also, as a straight person,I've never had to come out of
the closet Right, and so I thinkthat just being different in
any way in society can causeadditional pressure, and so I
think it's very important foreverybody to have resources, and
(29:31):
also we are seeing the harms,so it's an interesting time.
Sam Sethi (29:35):
I've come out of a closet but that's only because I
was sleepwalking drunk andwalked into one.
But anyway, that's anotherstory.
Now, moving on the other storythat I'd love your opinion and
thoughts on are Wondery.
Now I talk about Apple beingslow as a snail in terms of
evolving with new feature andfunction.
And then you go to Amazon and Ithink they're rigor mortis dead
(29:58):
half the time.
They literally have a podcastplatform, but Amazon Music
doesn't mention the word podcast.
Audible is part of Amazon, butmost people may or may not know
that.
And then you've got Wondery,which is also part of Amazon,
and I just think, and I've that.
And then you've got Wondery,which is also part of Amazon,
and I just think, and I've saidit before, it's mini-thiefdoms,
those corporate directors oftheir little thiefdoms who never
(30:19):
the twain shall meet.
Yo, I'm going to run my littleempire, you run your empire, and
it's an internal, outwardstrategy.
We do not come across as asingle platform.
So do you think now, withwhat's happened, wondery is now
becoming part of Audible, genSargent has been let go what are
(30:40):
Amazon doing?
I mean, what is their thoughtprocess here?
Norma Jean Belenky (30:46):
Gosh, I'd love to see an internal memo.
Sam Sethi (30:49):
I'd love to see the Epstein list.
I'll see that before I see theinternal memo Interesting.
Norma Jean Belenky (30:56):
You know, I think that Amazon specifically
had a very unique strategy ofrunning in the red for many,
many years by spending a lot ofmoney on growth and acquisition.
And when you grow that quicklyand you acquire many companies
that quickly, the integration isgoing to maybe be more
segmented or take more time forthe dust to settle.
You see a trend, you acquireright.
(31:17):
It's build, bury or buy, and soI think when you're that big a
company, you really have themeans to do that.
So I think you know Amazon'saudio strategy as a whole has
never been cohesive.
We're looking at that from thatstandpoint, if we, if we look
back on it in hindsight and whenwe look at Wondry, you know
(31:39):
that acquisition was made at atime of acquisitions.
That was a time where if theydidn't buy Wondry, somebody else
probably would.
Sam Sethi (31:46):
And they bought it pretty cheap, actually $300
million.
Norma Jean Belenky (31:51):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
But I mean you look at what wasgoing on at that time and you
know, I think it's veryinteresting to see, now that
we're in this post-acquisitionbubble, what's happening with a
lot of these companies.
Maybe they're not seeing thekind of profit they want.
Maybe, you know, wondry isn'thaving the kind of subscriber
base that they wanted it to haveand that's either through the
(32:12):
market dictating or, you know,lack of resources on their end.
We'll never know.
You know, obviously everybody'shearts go out to the 110 people
who are looking for work now.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing as an industry.
I've seen so many posts.
This just happened in the lastlike what?
36 hours, and so Ashley Carmen,I think, had the scoop on that
and I think once that came out,you know there's been nothing
(32:35):
but a flood of.
If I can help, let me know.
If anybody from Wondery seesthis and, you know, can reach
out, you know, let me know ifthere's any way I can help.
I think that that's reallyimportant as an industry that
we're seeing, and so that'sreally positive and great to
hear.
I think that really good worktakes time and labor and it's
not always celebrity interview.
(32:56):
You know quick to record, quickto come out content and it may
make just as much money or lessmoney or more money than that
celebrity less expensiveproduction makes.
And so when you're looking atstrict ROI, you know these are
the kind of conversations andcuts as an industry we're going
to see from large companies whomaybe are in podcasting for ROI.
Sam Sethi (33:21):
I wonder whether it's that Stephen Colbert thing.
Maybe the team's got too bigand fat because we said, you
know, Patreon and Substack andsubscription-based monetization
is the way forward, I think, andWondery Plus seems to be
already in that ballpark of asubscription-based model.
So I'm surprised.
Norma Jean Belenky (33:39):
I mean yes and no.
Yes, I just have to say thisreally quick, though when you're
talking about Patreon andSubstack, those are
creator-driven platforms.
Yeah, was Wondery Plus acreator-driven platform?
Sam Sethi (33:49):
I don't know, but it was.
It was its own subscriptionbased model, and so if you want
to, but, but, but.
Norma Jean Belenky (33:55):
But the shows that were on Wondery
weren't?
Hey, follow me on Wondery,follow me on Wondery.
Follow the way that if you havea sub stack and you're an
independent creator, you willnever shut up about that sub
stack.
Right, I hadn't.
I mean, I saw the occasionallike oh, listen to us on Wondry
Plus, but I didn't see the kindof evangelism that those other
creator subscriptionmonetization platforms have.
Sam Sethi (34:17):
Yeah, and I think that there's a difference there.
I'd say, if it was you or Iwho's created our own media
channel on Substack, we are theowner, and I think Wondry, being
a corporate within a corporatewithin a corporate, is basically
not that bothered about it.
Oh yeah, we got the platform,but kind of if you want to be
(34:37):
there, and I think they wouldn'thave pushed it as hard as if
you were an individual creator,so maybe that's it.
Ok.
Look, let's move on fromWondery.
Let's look at a couple of otherthings that I know you've got
some knowledge in, given yourbackground.
Riverside just announced thatthey're going to do hosting.
Now, you came from a hostingbackground, so I'm hoping that
(34:58):
you have the answer and theinsight that we're all looking
for, which is why are Riversidegetting into hosting?
Norma Jean Belenky (35:05):
Oh, I mean.
To me it makes total sense.
That's a very natural next step.
For them, hosting is a reallyfun game because once you get a
hosting subscriber it is veryeasy to keep them subscribed and
keep their money.
Migrating from one hostingplatform to the next is tedious
and inefficient.
So that's number one.
Sam Sethi (35:23):
Number two by design, by the way.
Norma Jean Belenky (35:25):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Sure, of course, by design,nobody wants to give up a
subscriber.
I mean, pay me 120 bucks a year, forever, please.
And also when you look at theirproduct I love Riverside.
We record pod biz on Riverside.
So shout out to Kendall and theteam we love them.
It's a great platform.
I think that it's a very naturalnext step.
(35:46):
When you look at that companyand how it's growing, you know,
it appears to me they've taken alot of VC money.
They have a lot of new rolesthat they've released.
Usually, when a company gets achunk of VC money, they're going
to hire, and so they're in thatphase, and so they're going to
grow and they're going to keepgrowing and keep hiring until
they profit or run out of runway.
(36:07):
I think that that's how itworks when you take VC money,
and so we're seeing that growthright now.
Considering how easy it is torecord and edit a podcast and to
create marketing assets forthat podcast within their
platform, it makes a lot ofsense that the next natural step
would be hosting.
It's a very easy add onmonetization, wise, right.
(36:30):
You say okay, for an extracouple of bucks a month, you can
also host with us.
And you're thinking, oh, I canjust have more stuff in one
place, and I think all peopleare inherently lazy and so the
more things you can have in oneplace, the better.
And they have built a followingof users for their recording
platform and I'm sure many ofthose users maybe it's for a new
(36:52):
show, maybe it's for new userswill be excited about that
product.
It's a really smart move ontheir part for sure.
Sam Sethi (37:01):
I'm sure Descript will follow suit.
So what does this mean forhosts?
I mean, I talk about thetechnology escalator where, you
know, hosting five, 10 years agowas at the bleeding edge of
technology, with Libsyn comingout first with it and now
RSScom's co-founder, albertoBotella, said hosting is just a
commodity, pretty much, and it'sthe services around hosting
(37:23):
that we make our money from.
Are we going to see?
Look, spotify has made hostingfree anyway, because you have to
put your subscribed version ofyour podcast with Apple.
So they are a host by default,right?
They just don't want to say it.
And YouTube, in many ways, isdoing the same.
So what does it mean for hosts?
(37:44):
Are they going to be able tocompete if everyone's going to
eat their lunch and become ahost?
Norma Jean Belenky (37:55):
I think we're seeing this as the
industry develops.
Hosting is all about features.
I think Alberto is very correctand on the money with that.
He's also coming up on the show.
He'll be on the show in acouple of months, but it's
definitely something weabsolutely, absolutely and a big
fan of rsscom as well.
Alberto and Ben are both great.
I do think that when people askme like, oh, I'm going to start
a podcast, where do I go?
You know, my mind goes to whatfeatures does the hosting
(38:19):
platform have that this personwants, and so I think we really
are in the land of features.
Some of those really earlyhosting companies have been able
to establish great features andbuild in things like
directories, like editing, likeAI, and so you're seeing
features that really enhance thecreator experience.
Like you said, spotify is madehosting free, which is not
(38:40):
entirely free.
It's like free to a point,minimally free, free with
limitations, and so I think it'ssomething where you know, when
we're talking about hosting,it's the value that the
podcaster is getting.
Do they have multiple shows?
Do they need a network plan?
A lot of hosts don't offer that.
(39:00):
What are their downloads like?
Do they want AI built in?
These are all questions, and Ithink that when you're looking
for a podcast host, that's whatyou're going to ask yourself.
If somebody told you hey, ifyou're going to make a podcast,
use Riverside.
And then you go to Riversideand they're like, hey, we also
have hosting, that's an easysell for Riverside.
That's like shooting fish in abarrel.
It's a very smart natural stepfor them, for sure, because they
(39:22):
already have the feature ofhaving an incredible recording
platform.
James Cridland (39:24):
Norma Jean Belenke.
An excellent interview wouldhave lasted a little bit longer.
We used a slightly differentrecording platform to record
that and it managed to lose thelast 10 minutes.
Ah well, there you go, normaJean.
Thank you so much for takingpart in that, and Sam as well.
That's it for this week.
You can support the show bystreaming sats.
You can give us feedback usingthe Buzzsprout fan mail link in
(39:46):
our show notes.
You can send us a super commentor become a power supporter,
like the 21 people have alreadyat weeklypodnewsnet.
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(40:08):
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