Sari Azout from Podcast Magic, TikTok and Netflix’s Audio Bet, And The Real Value Of Video

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:00):
The Pod news Weekly Review uses chapters.
The last word in podcastingnews.
This is the Pod news WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.

James Cridland (00:11):
I'm James Cridland, the editor of Pod
news.

Sari Azout (00:16):
Knowing what moments resonate is very valuable.
And so it seems like there's aninteresting way in which
podcast magic can help identifythose interesting moments.

Sari Azut on Podcast Magic, Sublime App, and
Attention Data.
Plus, TikTok gets intopodcasting.
And is video worth it?
This podcast is sponsored byBuzzSprout with the tools,
support, and community to ensureyou keep podcasting.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting with BuzzSprout.com.

Announcer (00:45):
From your daily newsletter, the Pod News Weekly
Review.

Sam Sethi (00:50):
Everyone's jumping on the bandwagon, it feels like.
And the latest to jump on thebandwagon is TikTok.
It seems it was only a matterof time before they launched a
podcast network, and they'vedone it with iHeartMedia.

Yes, in a uh incredible uh coincidence, they
announced this on the day thatuh iHeartMedia released its uh
financial report.
Who would have thought it?
But TikTok is coming topodcasting with the announcement
of the TikTok podcast network.
They are working withiHeartMedia.
iHeartMedia are apparentlymaking some studios uh for them

(01:22):
uh in LA, in New York, and inAtlanta as well.
There's also radio stations andlive events.
Interestingly, we've had aTikTok radio station here in
Australia for the last uh sevenor eight years, I think.
And it seems to, you know,trundle along and seems to be
quite good.
So there's a thing.
But clearly, you know, TikTokgetting all excited about

(01:43):
podcasting.

Sam Sethi (01:44):
Yes, but I'm a little bit sceptical.
Is this going to be TikTokclips, full episodes?
Given the ownership currentlyof who owns it, will it be
censored?
Because the algorithm isheavily censored now.
So I'm not a very big fan ofthis at all.
Gosh.
No, I think TikTok is now apolitical pawn that's owned by

(02:07):
certain people, and I think thisnetwork is going to be heavily
censored.

Wow.
Well, of all of the things thatI thought you were going to be
upset about, TikTok gettinginvolved in podcasting was not
on my scorecard.
So my understanding of whatthey're doing is they've
basically got some TikTokcreators.
They are going to be making, itsays here, up to 25 new shows,
so somewhere in the region of 20new shows by some of the big

(02:34):
TikTok creators.
I'm not quite sure quite how,because if you are a creator on
TikTok, then presumably, youknow, just like any other
platform, TikTok gets your IPjust for the stuff that they can
do on TikTok and nothing else.
So I'm presuming that, youknow, I don't know, maybe iHeart
gets the email addresses ofthese TikTok creators and then

(02:56):
does deals with them.
I I don't really understand howthat bit works.
But yeah, I mean, there areclearly some TikTok names on
there.
They could clearly do a verygood podcast, maybe, and
certainly a podcast that willget listeners.
And so presumably that's howthat's going to work.
I mean, I think it'sinteresting.
The radio station that we'vegot here, which you can have a

(03:19):
listen to online, I'm sure, fromanywhere in the world, is very
interesting in that it is uh allof the jingles are voiced by
the TikTok lady, you know, thatslightly weird Canadian robotic
voice that uh comes on.

Tik Tok Lady (03:32):
This TikTok voice, this one.

It's done with people who are doing actual
shows, but all of the shows areTikTok creators, but basically
doing radio links, talking aboutwhat they've been doing, and
it's quite a good listen, to behonest.
It's all it's all pre-recordedand all, you know, nicely
produced and everything else.
So if that's what they're doingin terms of podcasting, and
certainly in terms of radiostations, I think it's quite a

(03:56):
smart thing.
But I would come back to theyannounced this on the day that
they announced their financialinformation, and their financial
information basically said thatyou know the revenue is down
yet again for all of their radiostations.
It's only podcasting which isuh really growing in the
company, but podcasting is stillpretty small.

(04:17):
So it's from memory somewherein the region of 11 or 12
percent in terms of in terms ofthe total revenue coming into
that coming into that company.
So it may just be a little bitof a financial smokescreen of,
oh, look over there, we've justdone a deal with with uh TikTok.
So uh maybe that's the way tohave a look at it.

Sam Sethi (04:37):
I think there are some positives.
Okay, like I uh have a lot ofnegatives on that platform, but
the positives are the TikTokshop is doing really well.
Amazon should have boughtTikTok really in this round, and
I think it's a threat sometimesto Amazon.
And I can see from what YouTubeannounced a couple of weeks
back where you could have linkswithin the podcast or the video

(04:58):
which would be available withinthe YouTube app.
And then we saw Apple withtimed links that we talked about
last week.
So I can see more and morepeople beginning to use
e-commerce or third-party linksout to you know make affiliate
purchases or whatever it may be.
And I think TikTok with theTikTok shop with a podcast

(05:19):
layered over the top of it couldwork well.
The other thing that I foundinteresting is one of the
mentions was they were going tobe talking about the music
tracks.
Now, TikTok's been really goodat music discovery, and a lot of
young artists, unlike onSpotify, are putting their stuff
up on TikTok and findingthey're getting hits and making
their content available to othercontent creators so that they

(05:42):
can use it as the backing track.
And so there's been severaltracks that have gone very viral
by making their contentavailable for other creators,
and so the radio stations, fromwhat I understand, are going to
allow you to do what I thinkAdam Curry was trying to do with
Booster Ground Ball, which iscreate a podcast with music in

(06:03):
it and maybe even a sell ticketsor link to the music to
download.
So I think it'll beinteresting.
Whether they can make a dentinto YouTube and Spotify will be
interesting.
Yeah, but I'm not a big fan ofthe platform anymore.

No, well, I've never used I've never used it.
It's it just looks annoying tome, so I've never bothered.
But but but but you know, Imean, if if there's one thing to
be said, I think that it willturn on a new audience to
podcasting.
And if that's a good thing,then that's a great thing.

(06:38):
You know, if you if you followa particular creator on TikTok
that then starts talking abouttheir podcast, this is the
important thing.
The podcast won't be on TikTok,the podcast will be on anywhere
that you get your podcasts, andpresumably the iHeart player.
So therefore, that that's wherethat's where you will have a
listen, and I think that's goodnews.
So from that point of view,great.

(07:00):
The more people making showsand pushing people towards the
Apple Podcasts app and otherapps also exist, then uh
fantastic.

Sam Sethi (07:09):
Okay, well, let's talk about the the platform of
the moment that seems to get alot of airtime, Netflix.
We've covered the fact thatit's you know looking to put
podcasts they've put a bit moremeat on the deal now.
The platform's looking to buildnumbers of around 200 podcasts,
they're looking to licenseother content and they're

(07:30):
looking for originals as well.
The one thing that stood outfrom the Bloomberg report that I
read was they're looking tomake changes to the interface to
better highlight these shows,which again, I don't know if
that's a good or a bad thing,but it shows that they
understand that it can't bebusiness as usual.

Yeah, I think that bit was interesting.
The other bit that wasinteresting in Soundbite from
Ashley Carmen, friend of theshow, is that these deals are
just one year long.
They are not deals that arelengthy, and quite a lot of this
seems to me to be Netflixdipping their toe in the water
and going, I wonder if this isgoing to work.

(08:09):
And we may well see at the endof next year, all of the
podcasts, or as I call them,cheap TV shows, because they're
not podcasts, but all of thecheap TV shows coming off
Netflix because nobody's reallyw watching them there, and all
of the creators getting gettingparticularly upset because
they're behind a paywall onNetflix, which means that

(08:31):
they're not reaching a bunch ofpeople that they used to reach
for free on YouTube.
Because, of course, you know,part of all of this deal is you
have to take the full show offYouTube.
So I think it's gonna befascinating to watch.
They seem to be talking to allmanner of exciting people now,
but we will see which cheap TVshows they end up buying.

Sam Sethi (08:52):
For a hundred million, James, I'll take us off
YouTube.
You know, we'll go exclusive onNetflix probably.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
And that's the point, isn't it?
Really?
Those shows that are gonna goexclusive will be paid a big
chunk of money.
Some of them won't care aboutthe fact that they've lost
audience and they'll go and dowhat Joe Rogan did, just go back
onto YouTube, post the money inthe bank, and say, Yeah, happy

(09:16):
days, we moved on again.
Yeah, no, indeed.
Now, moving on from that, therewas a report out this week from
Chris Stone saying thatpublishing video clips to social
does not drive podcast listens.
What was he talking about,James?

Yeah, so he's done quite a lot of research
into uh because he works at theNew Statesman during the day,
which is quite a large magazinein the UK, a bit like uh Time, I
guess, or something like that.
And the New Statesman had theirbest ever week of over a
million social video views.
But then when you have a lookat the podcasts that these

(09:53):
social videos were coming from,they've seen pretty well no
change in the amount ofconsumption.
And so he says that actuallythese things don't drive podcast
listens directly, and thensays, and I'm not sure I go with
it, but he says something like,But they're really important to
put up there because peoplewill begin to understand what

(10:14):
your brand is about, and maybein the future that they will
start to consume all this stuff.
Yeah, dunno.
But um, from you know, it's itis interesting seeing basically
people turning around andsaying, Yeah, just putting video
on doesn't necessarily meanthat your podcasts get a bunch
more audience.

Sam Sethi (10:34):
I think we've had interviews from the guys who own
Patreon talking about thefunnel, you know, and the
algorithm algorithms within thefunnel.
So create TikToks, createreels, create uh, you know,
short clips, attract them intoyour brand, get them to go to
Spotify or YouTube for thealgorithmic discovery, and

(10:55):
eventually bring them onto yourown platform, something like
Substack.
And that that sort of path tocommunity ownership and
monetization is where we thinkyou know people are going.
I I was speaking to, I met upwith a friend in London who runs
a big publishing creator for uhpodcasts, video podcasts, and

(11:16):
he he's saying, you know, look,we do four days work with a
client and we build them theclips and we do everything to
flood the zone.
That was his words.
Yeah, of course.
Flood the zone.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, I think thatthat's where we we're getting
to, right?
You know, where clips areimportant.
I think most people say theydon't listen to Stephen Bartlett

(11:37):
or Joe Rogan for the full threehours.
No, but they listen to theirclips.

No.
And of course, as a productioncompany, he can charge for
making those clips.
Let's not forget that, becausethat's another important part of
the of the deal here.
But yeah, you know, I mean,clearly, you know, clips work.
Clearly, we know that audioitself, very unit's very
unlikely for audio ever to goviral.

(12:02):
Clearly, we know that.
And so we have seen that videoclips seem to go more viral
because of products like TikTokand other ones.
So, you know, I mean, I I Iwould certainly agree that it's
a very useful tool to get morenew listeners to find your
stuff, as is, by the way,YouTube.
I mean, YouTube has very highnumbers for people consuming,

(12:26):
but very low numbers for actualconsuming, if you see what I
mean.
So, yeah, so people will findthe podcast on YouTube, but then
they will probably actuallyonly only consume it on the
podcast player of their of theirchoice.

Sam Sethi (12:41):
So, another question I've got then, James, is one of
the tags from the podcasting 2.0namespace is the soundbite tag.
Just my observation, there'sbeen very poor adoption of it by
creators uh and limited supportby hosts.

unknown (12:57):
Yeah.

Why is that?
Because I think that thesoundbite tag was it's one of
those proposals that was puttogether without really talking
to creators.
And I think all the soundbitetag is, is it basically says
from the podcast audio, choosefrom here to here, and here's a

(13:19):
title.
So all it will give you is itwill give you a little clip of
audio, which we know doesn't goviral.
Clips of audio don't go viral.
There's no way currently in theSoundBite tag of linking to a
video file, and so actually it'snot that useful.
Uh, it's one of those, youknow, it's one of the things

(13:41):
that podcasting, you know, 2.0has made up as a proposal that
nobody's really using, becauseactually, at the end of the day,
it doesn't really tick anyboxes in terms of a useful
feature.
Hence why there are two podcastapps that support it, Podverse
and TrueFans, because obviously.
And uh in terms of obviouslyand in terms of hosting tools, I

(14:05):
mean Headliner supports it,which is brilliant, as you would
expect.
But you know, the the hostingtools, I mean, BuzzBrow, our
sponsor, do support it and morepower to them for doing that.
But then you've got Blueberry,RSS.com, and then quite a few of
the quite small ones.
So, you know, I I think it'sjust a problem that actually if

(14:29):
the soundbite tag was looked atso that you could also link to
you could also link to video,uh, then maybe that's the way of
actually fixing that.
So that you've got both a starttime and duration, but you've
also got, and here's the URL ofthe video version, if you want
to end up doing that.
Oh, and by the way, this is youknow, this is landscape or this

(14:51):
is portrait video, I guess youwould you would also need.
But yeah, but at the moment wedon't necessarily have any of
that stuff.
It's uh it's you know, it it'sone of those, you know, this is
we'll get on to Marco Armentlater from Overcast.
But this is one of those, youknow, proposals and ideas that I
don't think ticks all of theboxes.

(15:13):
The the podcast standardsproject uh hasn't gone anywhere
near it, and I don't think it'sreally what anybody needs.
Sorry.

Sam Sethi (15:22):
So, James, let's move on.
Threads has come out and saidthat it's going to be supporting
podcasting links.
What are they doing now?

Well, this is very exciting, except is it?
So, Threads, if you don't know,it's Facebook's Twitter-like
clone.
I refuse to call them Meta.
So it's Facebook's Twitter-likeclone and uh refuse to call it
X as well.
It's called Threads, verylovely, and they have announced
a test that is support forlinking to podcasts.
Now, you can actually link to apodcast on Threads perfectly

(15:54):
happily by sharing the URL ofyour podcast website.
Buzz Sprout, our sponsor, willgive you a beautiful podcast
website, weekly.podnews.net iswhere to have a look at that.
So you you can do that anyway.
But uh what threads haveannounced is if you mention that
you have a podcast in yourprofile, then it will stay in

(16:15):
the profile all the time.
And if you link to your episodeon Spotify, then it will look
slightly nicer because it onlysupports Spotify, because of
course it does.
So, I mean, it looks a littlebit nicer, and that's basically
the extent of the support forthreads.
You clearly can't listen to theshow within threads, it will

(16:38):
kick you out to and open yourSpotify app.
But you know, we shouldn'tprobably forget that Threads
apparently have 400 monthlyactive users, so you know,
anything that makes links betterfor people is a good thing.
But I I think I I saw lots ofpodcasters getting very excited
about threads, and and it waskind of well, well, what what

(16:59):
what are they really doing here?
They're not really doing verymuch at all, so but you know,
but you know, good on them, Iguess.

Sam Sethi (17:06):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things I've done with
TrueFans is we've created theability to auto-publish your
activity, both as a podcaster orcreator to social web
endpoints.
But what we've found is anabsolute nightmare in ability.
So with Mastodon, it's a realpainful way.

(17:26):
We had to run our own server inorder to post.
With Blue Sky, it doesn'tsupport OEMbed, Threads doesn't
support O Embed.
And again, do we do TikTok?
Do you know how many otherendpoints do you do?
I don't I and one of the thingsI find myself now doing is not
using the social web because Ithink it's become so fragmented.
I don't really want to go andstart collecting my own social

(17:49):
graph again and again and againon every new network.
I'm just bored of it all,really, if I'm in truth be
known.

Yeah, no, and and I think you and quite a lot
of other people.
I certainly, you know, I useMastodon a lot.
I occasionally go on to BlueSky because weirdly I get more
interest on Blue Sky for some ofthe broadcasting stuff that I
write about than I do onMastodon, but that's kind of it,
really.
So yeah, I can I completelyagree with you.

(18:18):
I mean, it's weird that soOIMBed, if you're a listener
that doesn't know, then firstly,many congratulations on having
a life.
And secondly, um, it's a way ofit's a way of embedding a
player or a piece of mediacontent in a standard way.
It's supported by things likemedium, so you just paste in a a
URL and it automatically makesa nice player out of it, but

(18:41):
none of the podcast, none of theuh social media services really
support it anymore.
So yeah, it'd be nice if ifthey did.
There have been a few sort offiddling around with linking
from Spotify to WhatsApp, Ithink the Spotify to Discord as
well.
If you're a 12-year-old kid wholikes playing a lot of computer
games, um, then that's fine foryou.

(19:03):
So there's a little bit of thatsort of thing.
I believe that Spotify also haslinks into TikTok as well,
which will let you, you know,share music and therefore
presumably podcasts as well.
But that's about as far as we,you know, as far as it goes.
And there's very littleevidence that um many people end
up using these sorts of things.
So um, yeah.

Sam Sethi (19:25):
I do, I do think they had the potential to be very
useful for discovery.
I mean, I still I still thinkthe soundbite tag is something
that we should look at again uhand enhance rather than just you
know put it on the scrap heap.

Oh yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
But if you remember a year ago,everybody was up in arms about
the idea of enhancing a tag andchanging the spec.
Everybody was up in arms aboutthat.
Now that we've actually seentwo examples of that, firstly
the podcast location tag, whichwill always be a slow burn
because it's not really forpodcast apps, and then you've

(20:02):
got the other one, which is thepodcast images tag.
Or is it podcast image now?
Anyway, it's one of those imagewithout an S.
It's one of those where youwhere you needed to nuke it from
orbit and start again.
I think the Soundbites tagwould be really easy to enhance
in the same way that thelocation tag was enhanced,
breaks nothing for the threepeople who are using it.
But now you can add a wholeheap of other things.

(20:25):
So yeah, I th I think I thinkthere's nothing wrong with that.
And I think now at least we'vegot the precedent of being able
to show that we can do that, andit doesn't, you know, and the
world won't end if we changesome of the specs as we move
forward.

Sam Sethi (20:40):
Now, moving on, James, video and podcasting can
really work well together,according to new research from
Sounds Profitable and Owl andCo., which is the Hernan Lopez
company.
What are they talking about?

What are they talking about?
Well, they so firstly, thispiece of research in Sounds
Profitable was talking aboutthose companion podcasts.
So a podcast for, you know, theuh the only murders in the
building or whatever it'scalled, only murders in the
building, isn't it?
And then the companion show,which is produced by Rob Walsh
of Libsin, I discover.

(21:14):
Wow.
Yeah, and so and so apparentlykeep himself busy with
something.
And so apparently these thingswork very well together.
So 16% of podcast listenershave actually bought a streaming
subscription after hearingabout a show that they want to
watch.
Forty-four percent of listenersto a podcast about a TV show or

(21:35):
a movie talk to their friendsabout the TV show, which I guess
you might kind of expectbecause they're invested enough
to listen to a podcast about it.
But uh, yeah, you know, I mean,clearly the UK has seen some
cheap TV in terms of trade uh interms of traitors uncloaked,
which called itself a podcastbut wasn't actually ever
available on a podcast platform,but yet won lots of podcast

(21:56):
awards.
Who knows how that works?
But anyway, you know, and andand and clearly we're seeing
Apple TV Plus doing a lot ofthese things, or is it Apple TV
these days?
I don't know.
But we're seeing a lot ofcompanion podcasts going on in
that way.
Fun fact Netflix makescompanion podcasts for its TV
shows.

(22:17):
And here's a more fun fact youcan't actually consume those
podcasts on Netflix.
Well, that's maybe why they'removing into podcasting terms.
I mean, come on.
That's probably it.
But uh yeah, so that's sort ofone sort of side, but I think
also some really interestingstuff coming out of radio

(22:40):
stations and radio companiesagain getting excited about
podcasting, but also helpingadvertisers to buy both.
So iHeart's CEO, Bob Pittman,ended up crowing about the
podcast revenue for the lastquarter.
He said this.

Bob Pittman (22:57):
We believe we have the most profitable podcasting
business in the United States.
In Q3, approximately 50% of ourpodcasting revenue is generated
by our local sales force, upfrom about 11% in Q3 of 2020,
demonstrating the uniqueadvantage of having what we
believe is the largest localsales force in media with a
presence across 160 markets inaddition to our strong national

(23:19):
sales force.

Bob Pittman, you can you can take a radio person
away from the radio microphone,but my goodness, you can't take
the voice away.
Wow, what a thing.
Anyway, one of the interestingthings I thought there is what
he's just said, half of iHeart'spodcast advertising revenue
came from their local salesforce.
So that's a big thing thatiHeart have, that Spotify

(23:41):
doesn't have, that many of theseother companies don't have, is
actually a ton of local salesteams running around talking to
individual people.
So that was very interesting.
And very interesting as wellwas to combine it with their
multi-platform group, which isthe part of the company that
owns the radio stations.
Their revenue went down 5%, andthere will be more job cuts to

(24:06):
go.
They're wanting to save another$50 million next year.
Who would work in a radiostation these days?
But yeah, no, I thought thatwas really interesting seeing
iHeart's um iHeart's financials.

Sam Sethi (24:18):
Yeah, I think hyperlocal advertising is the
way forward, and I know AdamCurry and Dave Jones think that
with their godcaster platform.
No, I think one of the thingsgoing back to the Sounds Profit
all report, so we're saying, orthey're saying, that a companion
podcast has a resulting effectto go and watch the actual TV

(24:41):
show.
And I go back to the clips.
So we don't think though,according to what was said
earlier by the new statesman,that clips generate actual
podcast listening increases.
So how can one short clip notlead to the other?
But one companion podcast canlead to a successful watch of a

(25:02):
TV show.
I I don't get why one leads toone, one lead doesn't lead to
the other.

Well, and you're the person talking about uh
talking about attention time allall the time.
And it and it is just purelythat, isn't it?
It's if I'm if I'm going to sitand listen to a 30-minute show
about friends, for example, thatwill remind me then to go and
watch Friends as well and watchit back on the on the TV too.

(25:27):
I think it's just purely theamount of time that we're
actually uh spending with thissort of thing, which is why you
know branded podcasting works sowell as well.
And moving on, we we'veactually seen, talking about
radio, we've actually seen twoother things, which is just
interesting just to keep an eyeon.
JET is the UK radio tradingsystem that uh everybody buys

(25:48):
radio advertising uh through.
That has just added podcasts inthere as well.
So if you want to buy men age35, but but you want to buy them
on a podcast as well as on theradio, then you can do that with
Jet.
What Jet doesn't do is itdoesn't let you buy individual
shows, but you wouldn't kind ofexpect to do that anyway.

(26:08):
So it's interesting seeingradio in the UK getting very
into programmatic advertisingfor podcasts, and the reverse
happening in the US, withiHeartMedia now allowing
advertisers who are buying intopodcasts to also buy onto live
radio as well.
A company called StackAdaptintroducing an integration with

(26:32):
them.
So there's clearly two sets ofyou know media which are
colliding right now, podcastingand live radio.
And lest we forget, live radiois still absolutely massive in
the US.
64% of all daily ad-supportedaudio listening is to AM FM
radio, and podcasting is lessthan 20%.

(26:54):
So it's um it's stillabsolutely massive in terms of
uh reaching audiences, althoughreaching quite a lot of older
audiences these days.

Sam Sethi (27:04):
So in the report card, where would you put live
podcasting these days?

I mean, I think it's it's not really a thing
yet.
I know that there are a few ofthem, but I don't think it's
necessarily a thing that that isparticularly large right now.
You know, I wish it was larger.
I wish that more people weredoing it, and I wish that um
more podcast apps and thingslike that supported it.

(27:31):
But right now, yeah, you know,I mean I I think it's a sleeping
giant one day, yeah.

Sam Sethi (27:37):
I I because I I my my opinion is the FMAM D A B
transmitter is very expensive.
The content is the content isthe content, whether it was
transmitted across FM or web.
And I suspect that with closingdown of local radio stations
and the costs live should be thenew radio.

(27:58):
But it as you say, adoption isvery slow, right?

Yeah, adoption is very slow, and I think things
like Godcaster, which sort ofmerges the idea of on-demand
content and live content,there's you you know you can
tune into what to all intentsand purposes is a live stream in
that, but it's a live stream ofon-demand shows in in most
cases.
I think that's absolutely theway, uh the way that we're

(28:22):
going.
And I would suspect that moreradio companies are going to be
having a look at that.
The one thing I would saythough is FM or DAB transmission
is actually that there's athere's a sort of there's a
point at where it becomesincredibly cheap.
So, and it really depends onhow many people you have

(28:42):
consuming.
If you're a radio station withover with over 100,000 people
tuning in at the same time, thatis very expensive in terms of
streaming and can be done verycheaply in terms of an FM, you
know, transmitter.
So it's really it's reallyknowing where you're headed
there.
But most radio stations don'thave that sort of audience at

(29:04):
the same time.
So yeah, so it's uh it's aninteresting thing, isn't it?
Moving on now.

Sam Sethi (29:09):
Look, there's a product that we we've been
nudging about called PodcastMagic for the last few weeks.
I haven't really had a chanceto look at it, but you have,
James.
What's going on?

Yes, I have.
We mentioned it a little bitlast week, and this week I
thought I would reach out to theCEO of Podcast Magic and also
of Sublime App, which is a verysmart thing.
She's called Sari Azut.

Sari Azout (29:37):
I am the founder of Sublime.app and Podcast Magic,
and we make personal knowledgemanagement tools for knowledge
workers and creativeprofessionals.

So, Sari, you you launched Podcast Magic, I
think, last week.
Tell us what that is, first ofall.

Sari Azout (29:53):
Yeah, so podcast magic is the easiest way to
capture insights from podcasts.
It comes from a compulsivelistener of podcasts that wanted
to have the Kindle highlightingequivalent of her podcast.
Anything else that I look at orsee online, I can mark when it
comes to podcasts, sharing thepodcast episode doesn't feel

(30:18):
like it captures like this onemoment that really truly
resonated.
And you know, the the solutionsto this stuff, if you're really
eager for, you know, after therun, which is you know, where
listening to podcasts, I run tomy computer, I find a way to get
the transcript, and I copypaste it to my app of choice.

(30:38):
Or there are some likededicated apps, but they're not
platform agnostic, so it's likea more cumbersome process.
And so we just wanted to do themore natural things that people
already do, which is take ascreenshot and then use AI to go
from that screenshot toextracting the text and
generating an eclipse.

(30:59):
And I mean, really, it solvesfor people the ability to retain
more of what they listen to,right?
If you're spending severalhours a week listening to
podcasts and you can't remembera lot of what you listen, then a
lot of that is lost.
So there's that sort ofretaining of information.
There's also the sharing piece.
Sometimes I'm listening to apodcast, and there's an

(31:22):
incredible insight I want toshare with my team.
I know they're not going tolisten to the full two-hour
episode.
How can I best share this onemoment?
So that's really kind of theproblem space that we're after.
And we found as we've put itout there that there's a sort of
like separate parallel problemset for podcasters that we're
excited to dive into as well.

(31:43):
And I'm happy to talk about.

So, in terms of how you use it, you literally
just take a screenshot of thepodcast as it's playing, and
then and then you just email itthrough to you.
Is that that that's basicallyhow it works?

Sari Azout (31:56):
Yeah, you are listening to a podcast on any
platform.
It really works on Apple,Podcast, Spotify, Overcast, and
you just take a screenshot whenyou hear something you love.
It could be from the lockscreen or the podcast player
page.
As long as there's a visibletimestamp and a partial sort of

(32:17):
podcast title or an episodename, that's all we need.
And then you just email thatscreenshot to podcastmagic at
sublime.app.
And then within 30 seconds,you've got an email with the
transcript of the moment and avideo clip that you can share
across any platform.
And then, of course, it syncsto your Sublime library

(32:38):
optionally, where you can smartsearch all of your podcast clips
using AI search.
You can also click into anypodcast clip and see what
related clips people are saving.
So there's that downstreamstuff.
But the basic thing is justtake a screenshot.
Now we do have an iOS shortcut.
So what I do now is I just sayhey theory podcast magic.
So if I'm cooking, that when Isay hey theory podcast magic, it

(33:02):
just triggers a shortcut.
Nice.
It takes a screenshot and emailthen.
So for the power users, there'sa hands-free way to do that as
well.

Nice.
Uh that's it.
That's uh that's always aalways a plan.
Yeah.
So what's the the the businessmodel for this?

Sari Azout (33:15):
Yeah, so it's important for us to make it
super simple.
And I think the reason we wentwith no app, meaning it's just
an email, no login, meaning youdon't need to remember your
email or password to add tothese clips, and no subscription
is because people hatedownloading new apps and they
hate subscriptions, recurringsubscriptions.

(33:36):
So it's a one-time $20 paymentfor unlimited moments, and the
first three moments are free.
So the idea is fall in love,let us prove that it works, and
then if it does, pay a one-time$20 fee for unlimited moments.

Now you you've been mentioning Sublime App in
all of this.
What what's Sublime App then?

Sari Azout (33:57):
Yeah, so Sublime App is a way to collect and connect
anything interesting you comeacross.
So it goes beyond podcasts.
It becomes your sort of beaconbrain with your podcast clips,
it connects to your Kindlehighlights, your Twitter
bookmarks, your Instagrambookmarks, and then we have a
browser extension where you cansee anything from anywhere.
So Sublime is like a digitalhole for your mind.

(34:18):
All of the interesting contentyou come across is smartly
searchable, connected.
And so you don't you can usepodcast magic without Sublime,
but if you don't want thesepodcast clips to just live in
your email, and you they canjust sync directly to to
Sublime.
And I think a lot of people arefinding that handy.
And and just for context, theidea behind Podcast Magic came

(34:42):
about because we were seeingpeople add a Spotify link to
their Sublime library and thenhad a note saying, you know,
minute 1114, James is speakingabout, you know, future of radio
or whatever.
And so we were like, peoplereally want to capture this one
moment, not just the the fullepisode.
So that's sort of where thislike pain point was born.

Yeah.
And so I guess part of the partof the plan here is to get more
people using using the wholesuite of um of of uh tools as
well.
Uh it's it sounds like abookmark, a bookmark system for
life.

Sari Azout (35:18):
Yes.
I mean, podcast magic isindependent, but we do think of
it as part of the sublimeecosystem, and we're hoping that
it can become an on-ramp toSublime if people would like.
But but the product worksindependently of Sublime as
well.
And I suspect some people willwant to only want the podcast
solution.

(35:38):
What's interesting aboutpodcast magic is that we've
partnered with a few podcastersthat are sharing the tool with
their listeners.
And what we're finding is thatfor them, knowing what moments
resonate is very valuable,especially because there's a
whole industry around clippingfor distribution purposes and
having to kind of, you know,after recording, cut it out into

(36:00):
like bite-sized clips forsharing.
And so it seems like there's aninteresting way in which
podcast magic can help identifythose interesting moments.
There's also one of the thingswe've heard is that it's very
hard for podcasters to get firstparty data, like just emails of
who is listening to my podcast.

(36:21):
And so this is this is uhpodcast magic is an idea, maybe
it's still very nascent, butwe're excited as we roll this
out to solve pain points forpodcasters so they can help us
in turn distribute this tool.

Yeah.
So you so you could see afuture where a podcaster can
sign up to know when people areinterested in what they hear,
but also potentially be able tocontact those people directly
with their permission, I'mguessing.
And and that would then, youknow, enable all kinds of
conversations to start on thereas well.

Sari Azout (36:55):
Yeah, I mean, I my sort of view is informed by the
fact that I've been writing aself-stack newsletter for five
years and I've experiencedfirsthand the value of an email
address.
And for podcasters, like theydon't they can't reach those
listeners directly.
So I don't, you know, I can't,I don't, I won't make any
promises.
There are some kind of privacyissues and it will evolve, but I

(37:16):
do think it's very interestingto I mean, I'm obsessed with the
best ideas traveling for,right?
And you know, ideas are whatmove me in general.
And so in the case of podcastmagic, that means helping
podcasters identify those ideas,helping listeners share those
ideas more widely, return tothose ideas in their life and

(37:39):
work.
And yeah, and I think you know,to the extent that we can,
we're actually already doingthis where we have about 2,000
people that have used the toolsso far.
Pretty, pretty new.
We can see what people areclipping, and we send emails to
podcasters saying, Hey, by theway, you know, here's like a

(38:00):
dashboard of what people areclipping from your podcast.
And we don't share the emailsjust yet, but I can imagine or
I'm seeing enough interest frompodcasters in and saying, like,
wow, this is interesting.
It's cool to see that somebodylike sent a screenshot and took
time of their day to say likethis was interesting.

Next, potentially, you know, quite a
few of those of those tools.
Where have you where have youcome from?
You're clearly a podcastlistener yourself, but have you
been working on the Sublime appfor a long, long time?
Or what what's a bit of yourbackground?

Sari Azout (38:33):
Yeah, so I I've I've been sort of like in the tech,
like a bit of tech, so workingin startups, in venture capital,
in strategy roles in a lot oftech startups.
I also love writing.
Like writing has been sort oflike something I've I've done
always in my career.
So I've had a substantialnewsletter for many years.

(38:55):
And yeah, I would say likeSublime was just born from this
pain point I had of I want tohave a better relationship to
the internet and to the ideas.
I consume it's so easy to justbe a passive consumer and
scroller on the internet andjust everything and and and

(39:15):
constantly just be consuming.
And I think for me, sublime isactually the thing that helps
and inspires me to createbecause the more I can curate
ideas, the more inspired I am tocreate.
So yeah, I sort of like droppedeverything in my life and I
said, in order to like the nextleg of my life and my journey is
downstream of me being able tocontrol my attention and my

(39:37):
information diet.
And yeah, Sublime is sort of asandbox to experiment with those
ideas.

So if people want to learn more, where
whereabouts do they go?

Sari Azout (39:46):
Yeah, so sublime.f to try sublime, podcastmagic.f
to get a refresher on theinstructions.
And then we write a weeklynewsletter at
sublimeinternet.substack.com.

I shall sign up.
Thank you so much for yourtime.
I appreciate it.

Sari Azout (40:03):
Thanks so much, James.
Delighted to chat with you.

Amazing thing, a free daily newsletter about
podcasting.
It's called Pod News.
Subscribe now at podnews.net.
Everybody is doing it.
If you don't subscribe, you'reso sketchy.

Announcer (40:19):
The Pod News Weekly Review with BuzzStrozzrout.
Start podcasting, keeppodcasting.

Sam Sethi (40:28):
James, measured by the cost of an hour of
attention, there's a report outthat says producing video as
well as audio for your podcastcosts are whacking great big 77%
more than audio alone.
Now we we thought audioproduction was fine, we thought
video production was much moreexpensive, but I never put a 77%
lift in in doing it.

Yeah, well it's a 77% additional cost, but
that's only an additional costif you look at it in terms of
cost per attention.
Because if you add video, youdo get more people consuming
your stuff.
I mean, that much is very clearfrom all of the from all of the
data.
Now what we do know, though, isthat when you are producing

(41:13):
when you are producing video, itcosts significantly more.
It costs 3.6 times more toproduce a video show than it
does to produce an audio show.
But more people consume it.
So in total, you end up withthat 77% figure, which is
significantly lower than 360%,which is what the actual costs

(41:37):
are.
It's a really good piece ofdata put together by the
podcastmarketingacademy.com,Jeremy Enns with the finest
beard in podcasting, apart fromStephen Robles, of course.
Let's not forget him.
But it's a really good piece ofuh data.
He ended up talking to over 300podcast creators who are making

(41:58):
both audio and making video.
Got lots of information backfrom it, and it's uh well worth
a read.
But if you're wondering whetheror not it's worthwhile to do
video and whether or not youwill get more money if you do
video than if you just do audio,the quick answer is probably
not, but it's probably quiteworthwhile.

Sam Sethi (42:20):
Okay, now this is a report that you had in Pod News
Daily from AliToo that Iactually, when I saw it, sort of
put my brakes on a little bit.
85% of indie podcasters aren'tmaking money, according to the
Independent Podcaster reportthat AliToo put out this week.
That sounds awful.

Well, if you remember Todd Cochran, when he
was talking about this, he wouldsay it's 95% plus of indie
podcasters are not makingappreciable amounts of cash.
So you might make 10 bucks, butyour podcast hosting might be
15 bucks, and so in which caseyou are still not making money
out of it.
So 85% of indie podcastersaren't making money, according

(43:04):
to the Independent PodcasterReport 2025.
Is this bad?
Well, no, not really, becauseactually only 9% of indie
podcasters actually want to makemoney anyway.
You know, they're in it forother things, they're not just
in it for the money.
So I don't think it's aconcern.
I think it's a concern if theonly reason that people get into
podcasting is the money.

(43:25):
That that's certainly aconcern, but it turns out that
really, for 91% of people,that's not why they're in
podcasting anyway.
If they make some money, thengreat.
But actually they're inpodcasting for other reasons.
So I'm not too concerned aboutit, to be honest.

Sam Sethi (43:40):
Yeah, I look, I I had a thought, which was the reason
True Fans was called True Fanswas after Kevin Kelly's 1,000
True Fans blog post.
And it was the idea in the day,he wrote, stop chasing a
million followers and focus ongetting a thousand people who
might pay you ten dollars.
And that was the seminal momentfor me when he wrote that years

(44:03):
and years and years ago.
Now, I looked at this and Iwent, is it because most people
don't qualify for advertising orsponsorship because the number
of listeners is so low ordownloads?
And it's probably true, but howor when or when will we get
people to understand there areother ways of monetising?

(44:24):
I think we're gonna talk a lotmore about it when we talk about
overcast, but how are we gonnaget to the point, James?
Or will we ever get to thepoint where wallets work, where
micropayments work, where peoplecan get paid directly by their
fans, they can get comments,they can get donations, they can
get Patreon-like premium RSSfeeds.

(44:44):
Will we ever get there, or isthis just uh, you know,
something that we keep pushingthe rock up the hill hoping it
will go down the other side, butmaybe we'll never get there?

Well, yeah, I mean, I I mean I think that
there are a couple of thingsthere.
I think one of the things isthat realistically these days,
there is no limit to how smallyour podcast can be before you
make money from it.
There are a bunch of people outthere who uh will actually
share some money with you, evenif you've only got, you know, a

(45:15):
tiny amount of of peopleconsuming your show.
You won't make an awful lot ofmoney, let's be fair, but in
terms of the amount of, youknow, in terms of the amount of
uh of uh money that you'll make,you'll you'll you'll make a
small amount of money, and thatmight be enough to cover your
podcast hosting costs.
Or it might be enough to, youknow, take the wife out for a

(45:37):
nice a nice meal.
It's probably likely to be thewife, given some of the other
numbers that we've seen thisthis uh week.
So, I mean, you know, as anexample, I've got a podcast on
rss.com where I'm an advisor,and I have seen over the last 90
days, Sam, this podcast hasseen 1,125 downloads.

(45:58):
Woo! Look at me, 1,125downloads.
And I've made, in terms ofadvertising, $2.39, which is
nice.
No, in fact, $3.47.
Oh, you can stretch response tonow, can you?

Sam Sethi (46:14):
Wow.

If I can do my if I can do my maths correctly,
because because I've actuallytaken some money out.
So it's not it's not an awfullot of money, but on the other
hand, it's not an awful lot ofdownloads either.
So you can actually see prettyclearly the amount of money that
I'm making cost per thousand.
Yeah, and and it's early daysfor that service as well.
Right.
Uh it's a it's a product calledpaid.

(46:35):
So so I think that that's oneside.
The other side is the is themicropayments.
And you know, I don't want tobe Debbie Downer.
We're never going to get thereif the only thing that we focus
on is Bitcoin.
But right now, that is the onlything we can focus on, and
there will be a percentage, itmight be five percent, of all
podcast consumers that might getinto the whole Bitcoin thing

(46:58):
and be able to share that.
It might it may be considerablymore with services like uh true
fans that hide all of that forfor the audience.
But but I think I think youknow the big change will happen
when we start talking aboutApple Pay, when we start start
talking about you know GoogleWallet and all of that kind of
thing.
Obviously, you know, TrueFans wwhisks all of that away so that

(47:23):
you don't have to worry aboutany of that.
But sadly, TrueFans isn't quiteyet the size of Apple or
Spotify, although I know thatyou're working on it.

Sam Sethi (47:32):
Yeah, don't don't hold your breath, but we are
doing our best.
Yes.
No, I I I I wrote a piecerelated to this report that you
put out, which was highlightingthe five different ways.
I I just don't think people areaware.
I I I went to the CityUniversity Podcast Gold event,
which had a lot of the Britishpodcast winners there, and you

(47:54):
know, talking to them aboutanything, I mean their level of
knowledge was so disappointing,I think that's the word I'd say.
You know, disappointing as tothey're still talking about
downloads, they're still talkingabout advertising based on a
download number, nothing haschanged.
And I go, I I sort of shrug myshoulders, go, shall I explain

(48:16):
it?
And then I go, No, I'm notgoing to, because it it's just
going to go over their heads andthey're not going to do
anything with it anyway.
Yeah, yeah.

No, it's um I think it's I think it's hard
right now, and yeah, it would.
I mean, I think that there areother ways, but let's talk about
that when we get to the thingabout overcast, assuming that I
don't edit it out.

Sam Sethi (48:37):
Now, stand by for action.
Tune in has been acquired byCanadian podcaster Stingray, and
I just had to say F-A-B Scotts.

We are about to launch Stingray!

Sam Sethi (48:47):
It's a ridiculous name, isn't it?
Yeah.

Music (48:52):
Stingray!

Sam Sethi (48:53):
Who is this Canadian broadcaster Stingray?
More importantly, why have theybought it?

It started in 2007.
It operates a hundred radiostations in uh Canada.
It bought Newcap in 2018, andNewcap was the big, you know,
the big radio company that itended up buying.
But it also owns um TV channelsas well, called uh Stingray as
well.
Anyway, the the they havejumped in, and I think this is

(49:19):
actually really good news forTuneIn, because Stingray have
jumped in, they've realized thatthey are beholden to uh TuneIn
in many cases because TuneInoperates the radio databases in
Apple Music, the radio databasesfor your Google Smart Speaker
or for your Amazon Echo orwhatever it is that you have,

(49:40):
the radio databases forstreaming in most of the cars
that you end up driving.
It's a really big and reallyimportant gateway.
It's also got podcasts inthere, although it hasn't really
done very much with podcastsover the last couple of years.
And so I think this is reallygood news for radio as a whole,
but also for podcasting.

(50:00):
For TuneIn to have been boughtby somebody who clearly has
plans for that product.
I'm slightly surprised that theCEO, Richard Stern, is still
going to be working for TuneIn.
My my suspicion is that he willleave relatively quickly once
he's being told what uh what todo, but you know, but we'll see

(50:21):
how that works.
But yeah, I I think that that'sa pretty good pretty good news
for audio, really.

Sam Sethi (50:27):
Related to that though, Bower Media has also
done a deal with TuneIn as well.
What have they done?

Yeah, they sell the advertising in TuneIn uh in
some parts of uh Europe,including Poland, Slovakia, and
Portugal, they have a productwhich I'm reliably informed is
pronounced Audio XI.
So there's the thing.
I asked somebody at Bowerbecause Audio XI, how on earth
are you supposed to?
Audio 11?
I don't know.
But anyway.

(50:52):
Ask Elon Musk, he nameseverything.
But the company that uh sellsthe advertising, at least right
now in the Americas, is iHeart.
Now that is interesting becauseStingray is a competitor to
iHeart in Canada, because Bellowned the iHeart brand in
Canada.
So not quite sure what's goingto happen there, but uh that'll

(51:12):
be interesting to uh take a lookat.
But I think good news in termsof uh tune in being owned by
somebody.
Now we've also heard big newsfrom ACAST, who have excitedly
said that they will now betrading on NASDAQ, NASDAQ stock
home, that is, from November the20th.
Sam Sethi, why should I care?

Sam Sethi (51:35):
Why should you care?
You shouldn't care at all.
But the the employees and theemployees and the investors are
gonna be very happy.
Um we when we interviewed youinterviewed Greg Glenday, we we
had heard rumors that they weregonna list, we thought they were
gonna list on the US Nasdaq,uh, didn't realise it was gonna
be the Stockholm Nasdaq.
So what they've done is they'vegone from their early IPO on

(51:57):
what was First North, whichagain is an early listing.
So a bit like AIM in the UK,the alternative investment
market, where the rules of whatyou do and the governance around
what you do are not as strict.
Going onto the NASDAQ in willmean that they'll get access to
much more investment.
They'll be traded differently.

(52:19):
The regulatory rules will bemuch more stringent on them, but
it means that they couldprobably raise more money.
It also means their shares willbe traded, but also might mean
that the investors, the originalinvestors, will be able to exit
out.
That often happens when you doa listing, they'll get
preferential exit on the firstday of trading because the
trading will have a securedvaluation.

(52:43):
It'll be underwritten byseveral banks.
So I'm assured that theyprobably are going to be able to
take money out.
If they're not going to takemoney out, I'm certain that the
employees will see an uplift inthe amount of their equity, so
their stock options possibly.
So there's lots and lots ofgood stuff that will come out of
it, and I think it just makesit a grown-up company.

Yeah, and I and I mean certainly their their
their uh press release suggeststhat it will strengthen the
company's credibility,increasing opportunities to
retain and attract creators,advertisers, listeners, key
employees, and other partners,as well as broadening the
investor base.
And certainly, if you're tradedon Nasdaq, on whatever Nasdaq,
then I suspect that you aretaken rather more seriously than

(53:29):
if you're trading on somethingthat nobody has really heard of.
So Greg Glenday said in in thestatement, it positions ACAST
for the next chapter, wherewe'll continue to focus on
profitable growth, expanding ourunique global position, and
boosting our appeal to strategicpartners, international
investors, and the top talentand the creator economy.
He does a good quote.

(53:49):
So uh yes, many congratulationsto ACAST.
How exciting.

Sam Sethi (53:53):
Yeah, it does put them under a lot of pressure,
though.
Of course, we've seen this withLibsyn, where they didn't hit
their numbers on a regularbasis.
So by not doing that, they hadto delist.
So again, you're gonna belooking at those quarterly
reports very closely now.
Profitability is gonna have tobe hit quite significantly, and

(54:13):
they're gonna have to makefuture assessments to the market
about their profitability,otherwise, the share price will
drop.

Announcer (54:20):
People news on the Pod News Weekly Review.

Lots of people leaving all over the place.
So Stephen Robles has leftRiverside.
He is the uh face that you seewhenever you go to the Riverside
platform on that video thatOtto plays as soon as you go
there.
He is becoming a full-timeYouTuber.
Many congratulations to him.
He also co-hosts PrimaryTechnology, which is a top 10

(54:48):
tech show in the US.
He also runs the shortcutscommunity.
He is the man about Apple iOSshortcuts and indeed on macOS
these days as well.
So many congratulations toStephen for that.
Lots of um people leavingleaving companies.
Uh Christiana Kromer leaving DScripts.

(55:10):
She'd been with them for nearlyfour years.
Uh Grant Tottill has left SEA'slistener.
He joined a company in 2002,and he has been the big cheese
in terms of podcasting there.
My suspicion is with that onethat that is just a cost saving
because they're merging with abig TV company here as well.
Chloe Straw leaving Audio UK,friend of the show.

(55:33):
She's been on a couple oftimes.
She is she is a force for goodin the audio business, and I'm
sure that she will appearsomewhere else relatively
shortly.
There's it says something inthat press release about where
she's going, but it's basically,you know, she's going somewhere
really nice.
And when we can talk about it,then we will.
So we'll see what happensthere.

(55:54):
And then finally, we mentionedfeed closing last week.
Rob Walsh is doing his ownpodcast now, which I would
heartily recommend.
It's called Podcasting.
No, it's not.
It's called Podcast 411.
And uh he's already publishedanother episode this week
interviewing somebody important,and I can't quite remember uh
who that important person was.
But doubtless I will find outand stick it in the uh show

(56:17):
notes.
So that's definitely worth apeek.
And uh it's emerged that one ofthe reasons why, probably, is
that Elsie Escobar, the co-host,and indeed officially the host
of the feed, has announced thatshe has left Libsyn.
Uh, she'd worked for Libsin foralmost 19 years, and she says
that uh she feels immensegratitude and pride for the

(56:40):
people, the lessons, and thelegacy that we co-cre that we
co-created.
So, congratulations to Elsiefor your next uh step, whatever
that next step is going to be.

Sam Sethi (56:51):
Yeah, she was interviewed by Martin Quibel
this week.
And yeah, she said that she'slooking for a new opportunity.
So uh yeah, she's not retiring,that's for certain.

Yeah, no, indeed.
Colin Campbell has been hiredby Apple, which is exciting.
He was the senior vicepresident of NPR's podcast
strategy and franchisedevelopment, although he didn't
necessarily be at NPR forparticularly long, but he has
now gone to Apple.
Not very clear what exactlyhe's going to be doing at Apple.

(57:25):
I don't see a uh job title inany of the uh coverage of it,
but yeah, it's uh it'll beinteresting to see quite what
Colin is doing at um at uhApple.
I'm presuming.

Announcer (57:37):
Hey, idiot.
You covered it on Thursdaynight.
He's going to work at AppleNews as director of audio.
Pay attention so I don't haveto edit this stupid podcast
further.
The tech stuff on the Pod NewsWeekly Review.

It's the stuff you'll find every Monday in the
Pod News newsletter.
Here's where Sam talkstechnology.
Exciting news for fans ofOvercast, Sam.
Indeed.

Sam Sethi (57:59):
Hat tip to Dave Jones.
I saw it last night.
Probably you did as well,James.
Overcast finally has adoptedsome of the podcast namespace.
They've adopted the season andepitope episode tags, which are
going to be supported in thecurrent beta.
And they're going to look atsupporting the person, chapters,
and transcripts.
So wow, hell has frozen over orthrough thawed over.

(58:22):
Don't know what's the rightexpression.
Hell has thawed over.
I don't know.
But he has done the first stepin it supporting the podcast
namespace.
But, but, but, but he is notvery positive about the rest of
the podcast namespace either.

No, he's not.
I mean, he says, uh, you know,I'd like to set expectations
here.
There are some tags that adduseful metadata in many
contexts, but I don't see enoughbenefit or a viable path to
publisher adoption to justifysupporting many of the tags or
the mechanisms.
He says I have no plans tosupport their cryptocurrency
features.
More broadly, I do have a bitof a philosophical pushback on

(59:01):
any pressure to adopt Podcasting2.0's proposals.
This was not a standards body,collaborating with podcasters,
podcast app makers, and podcastlisteners to get widespread
agreement on a set of proposals.
It's some people who had someideas and published them.
And what I would say to thatis, yes, that's exactly how it

(59:21):
worked.
Nobody wanted lots of meetings.
If you want lots of meetings,Marco, you you have lots of
meetings.
That's absolutely fine.
But yes, it was.
It was some people who had someideas and published them.
He then moved on.
They gave it a name, Podcasting2.0, that suggests a level of
authority and inevitability thatI do not agree with.
I would probably agree.
I would I'll adopt the partsthat make sense for Overcast to

(59:45):
adopt, and there are some goodones there.
But podcasting two point zerois not a standard that anyone is
obligated to adopt.
It's a list of proposals.
And I totally agree.
Totally agree.
It is.
It's a list of proposals, andyou can pick and choose from
whichever of these tags you wantto implement in your own thing.

(01:00:08):
And I'm very excited to seeMarco going for the person tag,
which I think is brilliant.
Going for the chapters tagbecause Apple has, and so why
not?
And going for the chapter forthe and going for the transcript
tag because Apple has, and sotherefore why not?
I think that that is absolutelythe right thing to be doing.
So many congratulations, Marco.
The one thing I would like tosee, to be fair, is the funding

(01:00:31):
tag.
It was based on Marco's ideaanyway.
So we might as well use it.
So I think from that point ofview, that's fine.
And I would totally agree withhim.
There's lots of ideas, there'slots of proposals for tags.
Many of them aren't supportedby very many people.
We were talking about thesoundbite tag earlier on, and

(01:00:54):
it's absolutely up to him as towhich he goes for.
He doesn't like the name, uh,you know, whatever.
But I think, you know, if hedoesn't want to do the funding
tag or the soundbite tag or thetrailer tag, you know, I don't
really kind of understand why,but that's absolutely fine.
If he doesn't want to do those,then that's absolutely cool

(01:01:15):
with me.

Sam Sethi (01:01:15):
So when's a standard not a standard?
How do you become how do youget a standard, James?

James Cridland (01:01:20):
Well, so Justin Jackson, Justin Jackson has um
commented to Marco and said thepodcast standards project takes
these, I mean, essentially whatJustin has said is the podcast
standards project takes theseproposals and considers which we
want to actually put into astandard.
And I think, you know, thatthat's always been my

(01:01:42):
understanding of how thatorganization works.
And I think that that'sabsolutely fine.
I would love to see Marcoinvolved in that because I think
he would be really useful, youknow, in terms of that.
He doesn't, again, he doesn'tneed to support everything, but
you know, it'd be great if hewas if he was involved.
If he wants to be involved in,you know, a whole set of

(01:02:02):
meetings and you know,collaboration with podcasters
and podcast app makers andpodcast listeners, if he wants
to be involved in that, thengreat.
And the podcast anders projectis the place to go, I think from
my point of view.
But yeah, the podcasting, youknow, the podcasting 2.0 is a,
you know, as I've said before,it's a whole set of tags.

(01:02:24):
Some of them are brilliant,some of them work absolutely
great, and some of them franklydon't work at all.
But that's great.
That's exactly what it shouldbe.
And then we have the podcaststandards project to move some
of those things on.
So hurrah for Marco for movingsome of those things on.
I suspect it's because ofApple, but hurrah for Marco
anyway.
And yeah, and I think it's agreat, it's a great step

(01:02:46):
forward.
What say you, Mr.
Sethy?

Sam Sethi (01:02:48):
Well, I I I I'm happy that he's done it.
Okay, it brings another playerto the party.
We've talked about TikTok,Netflix, we've talked about
Apple doing things.
It's all great news, right?
For the podcasting community.
Hurrah.
And and it's justification forthe hard work that a lot of
people have put in for the lastthree years.
Like Dave Winery doesn't likepodcasting titto, couldn't give

(01:03:09):
a damn what he thinks.
Couldn't give a damn.
But personally, I've beenaround this when we saw HTML 345
and iterations in between.
There was no standard, and thenit eventually went to die with
a standard called the W3C andnever saw the light of day
again.
We saw that with activitystreams, we saw that with CSS.
You go to those big bodies likethe IETF and the W3C, and it

(01:03:33):
becomes a committee of nobodieswho run it to death.
And I think hurrah to thepeople who have worked really
hard, Adam Curry, Dave Jones,uh, Stephen B, Alex, Nathan,
many, many others, right?
They've they've taken time outto to push podcasting, and they
got the proof of their hard workbecause Apple adopted it.

(01:03:56):
Now, Marco is a follower, not aleader, and this is sheep-like
mentality, and I think thecriticism is unjustified.
I think, you know, what whatwhat does he want to call it?
Podcasting 1.0, Adam Currydidn't do it, Dave Winer made
everything.
I don't know.
I just I find it reallyfrustrating.
I'm glad he's adopting stuffbecause it makes sense, and

(01:04:17):
he'll adopt other stuff when itmakes sense.
Great.
I I just don't see why he hasto dig his heels in, and and as
you said, I think it's onlybecause Apple's done it.
He would never have done itotherwise.
And he's it's the same with RobWalsh.

You know, I would say though, I would say he
has Marco is saying that he'sgoing to support the person tag.
Apple do not support the persontag, yet Marco is going to
support it.
I think that's a good thing.
Okay.
And I think we should giveMarco the credit for realizing
that actually the person tag isa really useful tool here.

(01:04:52):
And it will be great to seebecause Marco is easily the
largest podcast app who would besupporting that particular tag
and that particular uh featurebecause Pocket Cast doesn't
support it.
I don't think Antennapodsupports it.
So it would be great to get thefeedback from Marco of okay,

(01:05:12):
this is what works in the persontag, this is what doesn't work
in the person tag, and andfantastic.
So I'm I'm I'm quite I'm quite,you know, I I think that the
wrong thing to do is to turnaround and say, you know, and
and after giving him a slap forso long for not involving him
himself at all in podcasting2.0, now to give him a slap

(01:05:36):
because he's only he's onlyputting three in, two of two of
which are, or five in, two ofwhich are supported by Apple.
I think we should probably givehim the benefit of the doubt.

Sam Sethi (01:05:46):
I'm popping a cork, right?
I'm very happy that he's joinedthe party.
Very good for you.
Absolutely.
What I'm what I'm saying is,why did he have to do it through
gritted teeth?
Why couldn't he have just said,yeah, that's great.
I'm really excited about this,and I might consider some in the
future.
Why did he have to slam it onthe way in?
You know, I'm adopting it, butI'm doing it through gritted

(01:06:06):
teeth, and I don't really wantto do this, and I don't think
most of it works, and I don'tthink this is a standard, and I
don't think this, and I don'tthink that.
It's like bugger off.
Don't do it then.
Right?
Just don't do it.
I'd rather you didn't do itthan do it through gritted
teeth.

No, I would probably I'll probably agree
with some of that at least.

Sam Sethi (01:06:22):
Yeah.

So yes.

Sam Sethi (01:06:24):
But anyway, look, it's good.
And we're gonna talk about someof the other apps and what
they're up to in a minute aswell.
But going back to one of thebig sticking points that Marco
did say, and I and I I again Ido agree with him on this one,
is micropayments and adoption ofwallets and all of that stuff
is super, super hard.
Yeah.

(01:06:44):
Don't know if we're pushing therock up the hill.
I often say that when I used tohave to talk about HTTP, it's a
URL, starts www.
Most people looked at me andwent, You're talking Swahili,
Sam, it'll never catch on.
And that was the web, and weknow that it caught on.
And I think when I say topeople it's a wallet, they're
just micropayments and they'repeer-to-peer transferred.

(01:07:05):
Oh, okay, got it.
And now with Alan address,yeah, what's my wallet address?
Oh, it's just samatgetallby.com or James at
strike.me.

Yeah.

Sam Sethi (01:07:14):
I think the technical complexity is beginning to get
hidden.
And so maybe in a year or twoyears you might see Marco adopt
it.
But I think we have to see moremass adoption from the other
apps who are leading the chargebefore you get to the likes of
the level.

It just needs to be easier, it needs to be, you
know, as as we keep on saying,but also it will be nice if when
we build something, peopledon't pull the rug from
underneath us and change all ofthe technology, which is what
has basically happened and whystreaming payments have you know
have become much less of athing than they were.
It would be nice if thatdoesn't happen.

(01:07:53):
So hopefully we can get we canget it right with ln address as
a good start.
Talking about that, we we seemto be moving over to LN Address
now, which is good.
Sovereign Feeds now hassomething basically built into
it that says you shouldn't beusing node addresses anymore,
you should be using lnaddresses.
I was banging my head againstthe steering wheel when I was

(01:08:14):
listening to the podcasting 2.0show because they've because
they've idiotically chosenpodcast index at getalbi.com as
their LN address.
They're idiots.
What they should have done.

Sam Sethi (01:08:30):
Friday night's gonna be fun.

What they should have done is to set up an alias
of podcast index atpodcastindex.org, which by the
way works, so that they don'thave to change everybody once
they stop using Albi in uh in acouple of years' time because
Albi pulls the rug and you knowfrom us all over again.

(01:08:54):
We we we've had whining andmoaning for the last four or
five years about everythingneeds to be sovereign.
We we shouldn't be having anyany uh you know centralized
thing.
And then all of a sudden we getthem turning around and saying,
okay, you need to change yournode address to r to reference
getalbi.com.
What utter idiots, what fools.

(01:09:16):
Their idea is that that's gonnabe in 20,000 different shows
because they all want their 1%splits from those 20,000
different shows.
We're all gonna change to agetalbi.com address, get real.
Why do we bother talking aboutmaking sure that nobody owns
this space and then we hand allof the payments to get Albi?

(01:09:38):
What new what fools, idiots.

Sam Sethi (01:09:42):
This bit's not getting cut.
Please do not cut this bit.

What fools.
Having said that, yes, uh, youOscar is doing a very good job
uh of doing a little bit of workin terms of uh how we get the
metadata back.
One of the things that we havehad to do is uh as we move quite
fast to get rid of nodeaddresses and move over to LN
addresses for streamingpayments.

(01:10:09):
That has essentially ruinedsome of the metadata that we get
of people sending messages.
And so what Oscar has done ishe's done a very good and very
nicely transparent standard,which is the RSS payments.

Sam Sethi (01:10:23):
Don't call it a standard.

Proposal.
Proposal.
Uh which is which is which isthis metadata idea, and all it
is essentially, there are bitsof it that I don't understand,
I'll be I'll be frank with you,but all of it essentially is a
nice JSON URL which is sent sothat you can actually see all of
the information and it worksquite nicely as well.

Sam Sethi (01:10:45):
So they've adopted uh or they've hijacked the
description field so to put themetadata within it, which is
very clever.
Sadly, Oscar and I were due tomeet this week, but Oscar hasn't
returned any of my calls.
Oscar, call me.
You didn't want to catch acold.
I'm ghosted of you.
I know, I know what it feelslike.
But yeah, we we were talkingbefore the show about you

(01:11:09):
weren't getting any true fansmetadata, i.e., boosts within
the results.
You were getting the paymentresults, but you weren't.
So we've adopted Alan addressthe the model so we understand
that you are James Gridland atstrike.me and the amount we need
to send you and the splits, butwe don't understand how to send
you the metadata.

(01:11:29):
So this is what Oscar's putforward.
I'm gonna look at it.
I'm a little bit busy onsomething else right now, Oscar.
Just a little.
But yes, as soon as we can, wewill.
And it seems like a verysensible solution.
I think this will be then thestake in the ground that we can
then start to build forward fromrather than have to change
again and again.

Yeah, indeed.
Podcast Guru working onsomething similar.
I hope that they are working onthe same spec.
It would be foolish if theyweren't.
Also, things going on.
Castomatic has a brand new,beautiful looking beta, which is
available on test flight rightnow and apparently looks uh
rather excellent.
So that's worth a peek.
Metacast has made someadditional changes.

(01:12:12):
They are a fascinating company,don't do very much with
podcasting 2.0, but they're areally fascinating sort of you
know, super podcast app if youwant to learn more about what
you're listening to.
So worth a peek there.
And yeah, lots of other thingsgoing on.
The only other thing that Iwould mention in the in the tech
stuff is XSLT is going away.

(01:12:34):
That is the rather complicatedway that you can currently make
a RSS feed look halfway decentif you click on it by mistake.
But uh Google has basicallysaid we're taking that out of
Chrome, and Firefox has said,whatever you say, Mr.
Google, and so it's going to bepulled out of both Chrome and
Firefox.
Safari is never supportedviewing uh RSS feeds anyway.

(01:12:58):
So that's going in the next 12months.
The good news is that RSS feedsalso can use CSS, and you can
just do a very nice, simple,you're looking at the wrong
thing, you need to go here inCSS, and that works absolutely
fine.
So if you want to work out howthat works, you'll find it in
Monday's Pod News newsletter.
You can copy my code if youlike, that's absolutely fine.

(01:13:20):
And that is the way of doingthat stuff in the future.
So at some point, everybodywill need to add that XSLT stuff
and take that out of the RSSfeed.

Announcer (01:13:31):
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Yes, so many different ways of getting in
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Fan mail by using the link inour show notes, super comments
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Thank you uh so much to themany people uh this week who
have been boosting and uhstreaming sats and all of that
kind of stuff.
Here is where I slightlyembarrassingly say that my
umbral fell over at the end oflast week, and I have it's still

(01:14:08):
in the process of coming backto life.
It should be back to life whenyou are hearing this.
So apologies for that.
That means that I can't readanything.
So so the only information thatI can currently see is um a
little bit of information aboutwho may have been streaming the
uh show.

(01:14:28):
So thank you for that.
It will come back to normalnext week.
You can, of course, use the fanmail link, which you'll find in
our uh show notes to get amessage to us.
That's lovely.
And also thank you for the forthe power supporters as well.
Many people who are supportingus every single month with their
credit card, people like JohnSpurlock, he of uh OP3 fame,

(01:14:50):
people like John McDermott, heof Calaroga Shark Media fame,
and people like uh RachelCorbett, she of
rachelcorbett.com.au fame.
She runs uh Nova's podcastingand uh does all kinds of other
things as well.
Uh thank you uh to all of you.
Weekly.podnews.net is the placeto go for that.
Oh, and by the way, we areputting together a special show

(01:15:13):
at the end of this year, whichis ideas for next year.
Well what's the what's thephrase we use?
Predictions.
Predictions, yes, yes.
That's the phrase I'm lookingfor.
Yes, yes, and you don't get onif you're not a power supporter.
So if you want to get on andgive us your predictions, then
then uh certainly in the powersupporter section, then
weekly.podnews.net is where youcan become a power supporter and

(01:15:37):
share your predictions with theworld.

Sam Sethi (01:15:40):
Like it.
Okay, limited.
Good.
Yes, now I'll be reaching outto a number of people to get the
audio from them very shortly.

Yes, no, that should be good.
So, what's been happening foryou this week, Sam?

Sam Sethi (01:15:51):
Well, I thought I had a uh a giggle on LinkedIn when
a friend of the show, LiamHefner, put out, Have I got pod
news for you?
as a new show idea for me andyou, James.
I don't know if you saw that.

Yes, yes, I saw that.
And I was curious as to workout who the posh one was that
was slightly out of touch withthe world.
Uh and and uh who the who theman of the people was.
Uh and I couldn't work out, Icouldn't work out because I
think we're both the posh ones.

Sam Sethi (01:16:21):
I think I think public schools united here, yes.

You were also at the City University Podcast
Gold Night during the week.

Sam Sethi (01:16:29):
Uh Brett and Sandy over there did a great job.
A lot of podcast winnerstalking about how they produced
their podcast and what uh the uhpotential was.
The winner kill list was there.
They were talking about how ittook them four years to get that
podcast out.
Four Jesus years.
I mean, like wow.

Uh and yeah, and and of course, you know, it's a
limited series show.
Yes, it's won awards, but it'sa limited series show, so it's
limited monetization, sadly.
So yeah, it's uh interesting.
Interesting.

Sam Sethi (01:17:03):
But so that was good, and then there's lots of
students there from the podcastMA that's done at City
University asking questions, sothat was quite nice.
And there's uh the guys fromAdoliticius were there and
Novell and a few other bigcompanies had turned up as well.
So it was well supported.

Very nice.
You are currently, you've saidthat you are currently working
on something.
That something is TrueFanshosting, uh, which is very
exciting.
Yes.
So uh yes, one step closer, andI can now see a exciting
looking.
Oh, you've got a new visuallanguage there.
Fancy, lots of exciting graphsand things for uh how the thing

(01:17:38):
works.

Sam Sethi (01:17:39):
Yeah, I mean we're taking it step by step, but the
the critical part for us wascould we move a podcast from
another host?
Yes, we've done that nowseveral times, and that's worked
seamlessly.
Could we then get that to playon multiple apps and get the
data back?
And we can, so we can we don'tdownload, we stream, and we do

(01:18:02):
that in six-second packets, andso we know exactly when you stop
streaming is your listen time.
So then we can aggregate thatback to you, the creator, as a
total listen time across allapps for your episode, but we
can also break that down by thenumber of plays and the listen
time on each app now.
So that's pretty cool, and ofcourse, obviously, we can then

(01:18:26):
roll that up into showing you alisten time for your podcast,
and if you've got multiplepodcasts, then we can show you a
listen time for those as well,aggregated.
So it's all working.
I'm very pleased.
We've done that in partnershipwith Russell Harrower.
I don't know if hosting as aservice, has is a new word or
not.
So we we are basically avirtual network on top of

(01:18:48):
Russell's network.
We weren't going to make theinvestment into CDNs and into
servers and all that.
That's a massive cost.
So thank you to Russell.
I'm sure that he's gonna reachout to you, James.
Actually, I was thinking itmight be nicer given that you're
both in Australia that youinterview him, because obviously
it would be fresh to you ratherthan me knowing everything

(01:19:09):
about.

Yes, because I will know nothing about it.
I will know nothing about it,and he's in Perth, so that's um
a couple of uh hours into thepast.
No, it's not hours into thefuture, isn't it?
Or is it how into the past?
That's how that's how it works.
So um, yes, so we should talkto Russell over the next couple
of weeks.
That would that would be fun.

Sam Sethi (01:19:28):
But if you want to get on the wait list, it's just
truefans.fm slash pricing.
And yeah, I think by the end ofthe month we'll have our first
customers on, and then we'lljust grow from there when and
how we do it, and hopefullyit'll be a success.
Yeah, very cool.
So, what's happened for you,James, this week?

I have been mostly trying to rebuild the
umbral.
I'm not quite sure why I'mrebuilding the umbral, to be
fair, but nevertheless, youknow, I felt that I ought to.
I've got no idea uh quite howmuch money I've lost, uh, given
that the umbral fell over.
I've got what I thought was aseed phrase for Bitcoin, which

(01:20:08):
turns out to be a seed phrasefor my lightning node.

Music (01:20:11):
Right.

So I'm not quite sure what I'm not quite sure
how I use that.
I'm waiting for the entireBitcoin um change to to
download.
So once that's finished, we'llsee if I've lost all of the
money that I had in in channelsand things like that.
Don't really understand how anyof that bit works.
And also, I uh you know I had avery small amount of Bitcoin on

(01:20:34):
that thing as well.
Not quite sure how to get thatback because I thought that I
had a seed phrase for theBitcoin node.
Turns out that I may not havedone.
So I may have uh said goodbyeto probably $30.
It wasn't a massive thing, butyeah, good job.
I moved it all over to uh to uhstrike really.
So so yes, never never let mein charge of in charge of tech,

(01:20:59):
uh, because that would be a thatwould be a fatal mistake.
So that's one thing, and theother thing that I have done
this week, I I do feel that thissection is now what James has
done on his on his homeassistant box.

Sam Sethi (01:21:12):
But new show title required, yes.

Yeah, but in case, in case, Gene, you're
interested in what I've donewith my home assistant box this
week, so I've got some NFC tags,some just some little stickers,
NFC stickers, and I've workedout now how to program that uh
to program those so that I justbrush my phone up against this
NFC sticker and it turns thelights off in the office, rather

(01:21:38):
than walking all the way backup the stairs to press some
buttons on a screen in theoffice.

Sam Sethi (01:21:43):
I can now just uh do that by uh standing next to the
front door and um so has itpassed the wife test because
when I did home automation andwe had switches, which my wife
knew how to work, and she istechnical, she would like get
really annoyed at me when I'dsay, No, it's automated, you
just walk into the room and theyturn on.
So don't turn the switch off.

I am uh no, I've been I've been very careful
with that.
So we've got and this is goingto sound very large, but so
we've got a swimming pool in thegarden.

Sam Sethi (01:22:12):
Now you know who the posh one is of the two of us.
Yeah, go.

I know, I know.
So we've got so we've got aswimming pool in the garden,
which is so fearsably expensive.
I wish that we didn't have it.
But one of the things that thatpool has in it is it's got some
very fancy blue lights.
So in the in the evening, if wewant it to, uh, we can turn on
those lights and you know,there's a sort of blue thing,

(01:22:36):
and it looks very, very fancy,right?
And we've not turned those onfor the last eight years because
why would why would you eversee if you can find the remote
control for the blue lights andthen hope that they'll actually
work and blah blah blah.
It's just a it's just anightmare.
What we now have, and the wifehas has just found this out, is

(01:22:56):
if you go out onto the deck oronto the or into the swimming
pool when it's dark outside, thelights automatically turn on.

Sam Sethi (01:23:06):
Okay.

That's all it's it's actually interfaced to the
security camera on the deck.
Right.
And the security camera goes,Oh, I I can see a human being,
and it won't be burglars.
So so it'll be clearly so it'llbe us.
So uh yeah, so that's whatwe've done.
But um, yes, it's all uh allvery, very complicated.
But anyway, it's been it's beenfun.

(01:23:30):
And and one one last piece oftediousness.
I now have so I'm I'm I'mwearing an Apple Watch, and I
now have a complication on theApple Watch, which tells me how
much battery I've got in thecar.
Uh oh God, you've justincreased your blood pressure by
no, it's fine, it's fine, butit's just it's just useful to

(01:23:51):
know whether it's charging ornot.
So I've got that now on there,so I'm feeling very clever in
terms of um how I've done all ofthis stuff.
But yes, lots of complicatedtail scale VPNs and everything
else.
So there we are, gosh.

Sam Sethi (01:24:04):
Anyway, I should I should get a life.
And a more interesting note,how is your application to be
the BBC's new DG?

Yes, gosh, yes, the BBC, eh?
Who would work there?
I mean, in all seriousness, whowould be the Director General,
who is essentially the CEO ofthe BBC?
Who would want to do that job?
I mean, Tim Davy has done itfor the last five years.
I've I've known Tim for quite along time, and he has visibly

(01:24:32):
aged in the last five years.
You know, it's a job that mustbe an incredible job.
It doesn't pay very much.
You get about half a millionpounds in terms of salary, which
is not very much in terms ofyou know looking after 23,000
people.
But and they just the stressand the hassle of doing that
job, you know, wow.

(01:24:52):
Who would want to do that?
That that's the real crisis.
That's the real crisis, is thatno one wants to work in the
public service anymore becauseyou don't get paid anything, and
it's just criticism againstcriticism against criticism.

Sam Sethi (01:25:08):
So yeah, it's gonna be fascinating.
It's become a hot potato,right?
Because it's a political potatonow, because everybody and
their dog says you're notimpartial.
Yeah.
We are sadly going down theAmerican route of bilateral
media.
So we've got the equivalent ofFox News, which is GB News,
which is the worst show ever,similar to Fox.

(01:25:29):
Ronald Reagan, I found out, wasthe person who destroyed
America's media when he removedthe build for impartiality.
And so then they went off ontheir own little routes of left
and right wing media, and neverthe twain shall meet.
And America's a split countryas we know now.
And I worry that that's gonnahappen in the UK if the BBC

(01:25:51):
doesn't exist and doesn't offersome form of impartiality
because one person'simpartiality is not another
person's, then I suspect we willend up with split media as
well, you know, people watchingleft-wing media or right wing
media.

Yeah, no, indeed.
Indeed.
It's gonna be uh, yeah, it'sit's absolutely fascinating
seeing what's going to happenthere.
Public media has already beenin real trouble without all of
this stuff happening.
So, yeah, there's a thing.
Anywho, that's it for thisweek.
All of our podcast stories, ofcourse, taken from the Pod News
Daily newsletter.
You'll find the Pod News Dailywherever you get your podcasts,

(01:26:29):
or you can subscribe to thenewsletter, which is better at
podnews.net.

Sam Sethi (01:26:33):
Oh, I don't know.
Hearing your voice is quitenice, doesn't it?
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