SquadCast acquired by Descript and IPFS podcasting

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Cridland (00:00):
It's Friday, the 18th of August 2023.

(00:04):
The last word in podcasting news.
This is the Pod News WeeklyReview with James Cridland and
Sam Sethi.

I'm James Cridland, the editor of Pod News
, and I'm Sam Sethi, the CEO ofPodFounds In the chapters.
Today, glenn Beck censored byApple, or was he Descript has
purchased Squadcast.
There's a new version ofDescript 2, and Ainsley Costello
earned 1 million sats on WaveLake Also this is Jay LeBuff
from Descript.

Jay Le Boeuf (00:33):
I'm going to be on later to talk about our
acquisition of Squadcast a lotof new AI features and Descript
on the web.
Hi, I'm Rock and I'm Zach.

Zach Moreno (00:41):
And we're from Squadcast.

Rock Felder (00:43):
And now actually part of Descript and coming up
on the show.
We're going to talk all aboutthe acquisition.

Alecks Gates (00:47):
Hi, I'm Alex Gates .
I'll be on later to talk aboutall the different podcasts and
two-point announcements I'veworked on, Hi this is Cameron
from IFUF's podcasting, and Iwill be on later to talk about
hosting over.

IPFS, they will.
This podcast is sponsored andhosted by Buzzsprout.
Last week, 3,056 people starteda podcast with Buzzsprout.
Podcast hosting made easy withpowerful tools and remarkable
customer support, and now AI tohelp you publish your show.
They'll be a podcast movementand by Pod News Live in London
this September.

(01:18):
Tickets are available right nowat podnewsnet.
Slash live.
From your daily newsletter, thePod News Weekly Review.

Sam Sethi (01:26):
OK, James, let's crack on with the show.
This week You've got a storyhere about Glenn Beck.
His show's been censored byApple.
Tell me more.

Yes.
Well, according to Glenn Beck,that's the case.
Anyway, he popped onto a socialmedia post earlier on in the
week this is me trying not tosay Twitter, social media post.
If ever you read that, thenyou'll know, because I'm not
saying X and I'm not sayingTwitter, because that would be
wrong.
So there we are.
Anyway, he popped onto socialmedia and he said that Apple

(01:57):
Podcast has removed the GlennBeck program.
He says it's politicalcensorship by Apple.
Except it's not.
We have learned at Pod Newsthat the issue was actually just
a trademark dispute from athird party and the Glenn Beck's
organization was sent an emailthey hadn't replied, and Apple's
emails, because I've got one ofthese emails from Apple from

(02:20):
when I made a trademark disputewith somebody else, and the
email is just basically say ifyou don't come back to us within
five working days, then we'lltake your show off.
And that's exactly whathappened, apparently.
So there we are.
So the tip for the top is,regardless of if you're Glenn
Beck or if you're somebody else,make sure that the email you

(02:41):
use in Apple Podcasts Connect isan email that you actually read
and make sure that you reply tothe email, otherwise you'll get
taken off.
So yeah, censorship no, not atall.

Sam Sethi (02:52):
So there you go, that's that story done, so the
title of it is actually GlennBeck's show removed for the lack
of admin.
That's it.

Yes, well done Glenn.
Yes, well done Glenn Beck.
He looks very old doesn't he?

Sam Sethi (03:07):
A big week for a couple of companies.
Descript has acquired Squadcast.
I mean, that's a big thing initself.
The editing tool Descriptpurchased Squadcast earlier this
week and we basically had achance to talk to both parties
Before we do.
What I thought was reallyinteresting about this
announcement, james, is thatSquadcast is going to be free

(03:31):
for all Descript users.

Yes, squadcast free for all Descript users, and
on the other side, if you're aSquadcast customer, you get to
use Descript too, to get itsediting capabilities at no
additional cost.
So it's good news on both sides.
It makes perfect sense.
A decent editing tool buying adecent remote recording service.
Squadcast, of course, weresponsors of this very show in

(03:54):
the dim and distant past, andyou ended up having a chat with
them.

Sam Sethi (03:59):
I did indeed, so I asked the Zack and Rock what it
liked to be working with.

Descript on them.
So yeah, squadcast is now apart of Descript.
You'll see when you log in toSquadcast it's going to say
Squadcast by Descript and rightnow they're operating as two
separate entities, if you will.
They're one company but twoseparate products.
But over time we'll beintegrating it into the fold of
Descript and it'll be one placewhere you can edit, record,

(04:25):
publish, do all the things inone place, and it's going to
really empower all creators ofall kinds, but especially
podcaster.

Sam Sethi (04:32):
Okay, zack.
When did the knock on the doorhappen?
You know?

who picked up the phone to who.
I think it's been a developing,deepening relationship over time
.
We've gotten to know the team atDescript for the last few years
now, since the early days ofSquadcast, and I think in that
first conversation we had withAndrew, we kind of talked about
something like this and thatalways struck me because we

(04:58):
always had so much like visionand you know where we wanted to
take Squadcast as its own thingthat you know it's hard to kind
of take something like thatseriously when your company is
like in beta and v1.
It's like no, we're trying toget to, like, you know, v20.
And it felt like there was alot of potential to realize the
on the Descript app and theSquadcast app and kind of

(05:19):
product journeys to eventuallyyes, seven years later, we just,
you know, kept the relationshipgoing, continued to build out
our API, descript's API, so thatwe can do cool things like the
edit and Descript integrationthat we launched a little bit
over a year ago now, madeimprovements there and got to
know the teams as part of thatjourney and, yeah, things

(05:43):
developed.
So there wasn't really likethis definitive moment and we've
kind of discussed this on andoff over time so I always felt
you know Descript were closefriends of ours and now we've
kind of made that official islike how I would love to have
been a fly in the wall when youtwo sat down over a beer went.

Sam Sethi (05:59):
you know what mate they want to buy us.
What should we do?
Our conversation would havebeen fun and you would have gone
.
Enough zeros on the end of thecheck.
Yeah, there's enough, let's doit.
Let's do it.

It would have been nice to have you there, not
going to lie you know it's notall, it's not the most fun
experience, but it's.
It is an experience that wewill never forget and I'm glad
that I got to go through.
It was that.

Yeah, same here, and making sure we're looking
out for the customer number one.
You know, is this a win?
Win Like I think it checks allthose boxes.
That's what I'm most proud of.

Sam Sethi (06:28):
I think it's a win.
Win certainly because you arenow free as part of Descript, as
a service, so that's great.
So for anyone who's a Descriptcustomer gets the complete value
of using squadcast and viceversa.
I guess if you, if you'recurrently there Now I've gone
through the upgrade I assumethat's what you're calling it
where I've connected both myaccounts and for you know,

(06:51):
transparency have been a longtime user of Descript and a long
time user of squadcast.
So you know I was very happyand in fact, as you said earlier
, zach, there was a basicintegration previously and what
I'm pleased to say is theintegration now has gone deeper.
I wouldn't say it's seamlessyet, but it's gone much deeper.
So I just did a recording withsomebody else and since I

(07:14):
finished, a little hover buttonappeared.
I clicked on edit in Descript.
It went straight over it.
Transcribe Bang.
It all works, so beautiful.
And it went to the Descript webbeta, not the app, but I had
the choice actually, which wasvery nice of opening the app as
well.
So you've done a lot of work,even prior to the acquisition.

(07:35):
This isn't something you didyesterday over you know, last
night's, you know in your sleep,so you know again how long has
this conversation been going on,how long has this work been
going on?

A few months.
A single startup on its own iskind of a roller coaster time
machine, but then you know tworoller coaster time machines at
once feels like a really strangetime warp.
So to me it feels like it'sbeen a few months that we've
been working this out like froma from like a legal perspective.
You know a bunch of boringstuff behind the scenes but a

(08:07):
lot of hard work by a lot ofsmart people to help get us here
.
And then of course, there's theproduct side right, the
customer experience, and that'sreally where you know I'm super
proud of both of our teams.
Our team now having to correctmyself, you know it's feels like
squad cast has always been, youknow, kind of lean and mean

(08:27):
approach to how our team andcompany of structure.
Now you know we've gained allthese resources of like 120
other people who are super smartand work very hard to serve the
creators who were also serving.
So that has been really greatto bring this to light and make
our products really shinetogether, bring the value
forward.
Here there's the experience youjust described, but also the

(08:50):
that that edit and descript kindof moving your files from squad
cast into Descript that youmentioned that also didn't use
any of your transcription time,which is another value out here
that we worked out with the,with the Descript product team,
to make sure that you're notlike paying for hours and two
places.
And you know there's a strongincentive to use squad cast for

(09:11):
your remote recordings, where ifyou're bringing in recordings
from zoom or elsewhere, thoseare going to use your
transcription time.
So if you're recording withsquad cast, that's kind of an, I
think, one of the biggestbenefits here.

Sam Sethi (09:21):
Rock, looking at some of the financials.
Obviously you're not going totell me how much you were
required for that's fine, I getthat.
But were you seed investedwhere you have you got other
shareholders?
I mean, how does that work?

Yeah, so we're a bootstrap company, so Zach and I
and our founding team is whatwe like to call them that
everybody that's that startedthis thing.
It's become squad cast.
We had the majority stake.
We did have some otherinvestors, some of our advisors
and the accelerator rejoin tinyseed has had a few slices of the
pie, but the majority was ourteam, and there's some
tremendous benefits with that alot of independence and decision

(09:57):
making, which is what Ipersonally love about being a
founder.
I love having that pressure andhaving to solve those difficult
problems and, you know, nohiding that's the other thing I
like is you can't.
There's no one to blame this on.
It's on us, and I think that isa great forcing function to
bring out the best in all of us,and so, yeah, it's nice, though
, to have all these resources.
It's like a new world.

(10:17):
It's very cool where we feltconfident that this was going to
be an incredible partnership,marriage, whatever you want to
call it, but operationally Iwasn't sure how things were
going to go, how we would allfit in.
I mean, we're used to beingthis team of like 10 folks that
know what everybody's doing andeverybody can help out and
contribute in some meaningfulway, where now we're a little

(10:39):
bit separated as far as thesquad cast team goes, but the
way that the sense of urgencyand the passion and ambition
that is that squad cast is at Dscript and that's been an
incredible experience.

Sam Sethi (10:50):
Yeah, and look, I think, knowing both camps as I
do, I think you're going to makea great fit together.
I mean, jay's a great guy,kevin's great.
I know a lot of the team overthere, so I think it'll be a
good fit.
Now, on your roadmap, you'vetalked about things like
supporting 4k and other things.
I mean you can accelerate someof that roadmap.
I guess now Is that somethingthat's you know, front and

(11:11):
center of your mind, now thatthe acquisitions happened?
I know it's only yesterday, butnow that it's happened can you
get onto the fun stuff of thetech roadmap?

Yeah, I love living in the future.
So I think that there's a lotto look forward to and hard work
to be done.
But yeah, I think 4k will be apretty fast follow.
After yesterday's announcement,we've already done a bunch of
the legwork to make that skateand for our customers who have
4k, and we've unofficially, ifyour camera is locked at 4k,

(11:45):
like some of these devices are,they don't like gracefully
degrade to 1087, 20.
There's a little bit of anunofficial loophole in squadcast
where we see those 4krecordings come through and we
render them and upload them justfine.
So this is something if youhave a particular device, it'll,
it'll, you can get 4k todayactually and just kind of

(12:06):
opening that up to everybody.
So that's the big one that'snext up on the squadcast side.
But then there's, as you canimagine, the work to be done to
put these two apps more togetherand that's really where it's
nice to have kind of opened theopened up to the world about
this, this partnership,collaboration, joining forces,
because we're both big on ourcultures, big on listening.

(12:28):
So now we can talk to peoplelike yourself and and our, our
customers who are using both andsay you know how do you want
that to show up.
We don't.
If we tried to like guess atall that stuff, we'd probably
get a lot of things wrong andit's not our process for how we
make our products.
So you know, we felt confidentto do this kind of initial

(12:49):
integration of like linking andsyncing and making squadcast
bundled as part of your descriptsubscription for probably
cheaper.
That is what we've done.
We felt confident to kind ofmake happen without talking to
people.
But the rest of it, yeah, wewant to be collaborative and
conversational and we like toship here.
We like to move fast.
So I'm really looking forwardto.

(13:10):
You mentioned descripts web beta.
You know it doesn't have arecorder right now.
I don't know if you know, ifyou click on record it takes you
back to the desktop, so you can, of course, record in descript.
It's just that the web is itsown special environment and
that's really what our team hasa ton of background and
experience of building not just,you know, single player

(13:33):
recording but, like we're doingright now, multiplayer recording
.
So that's really where I thinkit's unclear exactly how these
things will show up in thedescript product.
But I also think anybody who'sused both products can really
see how okay.
Both apps are supercollaborative.
Both apps are focused on audioand video.
Both apps are focused on veryhigh quality, making it fun and

(13:55):
fast, you know, havingultimately less work for the
creators that we serve because,like like you know, sam, it's
like it's a media startup tohave a podcast and you're going
to have like 10 jobs withprobably just one person.
So that is the reality for mostcreators that we serve and
we're very mindful of that inboth of our products and we
don't want to add an 11th or12th job.

(14:16):
We want to take it down to,like you know, something more
manageable one or two.

Sam Sethi (14:21):
Yeah, I mean one of James, and I have talked about
this before and no one in theworld, by the way, uses what I'm
about to tell you because it'sjust in my head.
Okay, so don't take this as ausable framework, but I call it
the five P's.
So pre production, production,post production, profit
maximization and, you know,promotion, right.

(14:41):
And I put everything intolittle buckets because, as you
just said, zach, one man bandproducing your podcast.
I have all five tasks to do,right?
Not only do I have to book theguests, I have to then record
the guests, then I have to editthe guests, then I have to
promote the guests.
I have to make some money fromthis, right?
Otherwise we get pod fade,which is the six one, but we're
not talking about that.

(15:01):
So so when I see what you guyshave done, you know, between
squad cars and D script, I putyou in the two P buckets.
You know, now they've gotproduction, they got post
production, right.
And I then look at the otherthree buckets and go, well, will
you do things like integration?
I know, zach, you're going totell me that, not Zach Rock, you
said it yesterday.

(15:22):
So I'll let you tell me how youintegrate with Zappia.
But you know, booking incalendar would be one thing
which pre production, whichcaptivate, does.
As an example, how do I do postpromotion?
You know AI, clearly D scriptusers, ai.
They've been sponsored by openAI or invested in heavily.
You know Usher and the bussprout do post production

(15:45):
promotion.
So you then suddenly get AI forthings like putting out
transcripts or tweets orwhatever.
Or is that?
Are they X's?
Now I don't know what we'resupposed to call them.

I don't know.

Sam Sethi (15:57):
Where do you, if anywhere, at the moment, do you
see yourself extending alongthat horizontal line Rock?

I think promotion makes a lot of sense, like
making it easy to take thiscontent and easily distributed
on social media platforms.
I think there's somecapabilities that D script
already offers to help folks inthat realm, but I do think
making it much more streamlinedand automated and integrated
into one platform makes a ton ofsense to me.

Sam Sethi (16:28):
And do you see?
I mean you know I think we'vespoken offline before together
about how StreamYard's done somegood things with you know
screen labeling and livecapabilities.
Is that something that you know?
You see yourselves now doingwith squad cast?

Yes, but in an unexpected.
So I'll leave you with acliffhanger on that.
You know, anybody who's beenfollowing our work for a long
time will know we are.
We're about innovation andcreating things, new things.
So I mean, I'm not going to goand just like build another
StreamYard.
That would be a waste of mytime, a waste of my customer's

(17:09):
time, like you StreamYard, ifthat's what you're into.
But you know, I think there's.
We focus on what's different.
You only get different bybuilding something new.
So, yeah, we think about thatquite a lot and I think there is
something that StreamYard hascaptured, but in their audience.
But I think they're making abunch of sacrifices in quality

(17:31):
and experience to be able toprovide that.
We think we can do something alittle more high quality and
better experience.
So, yeah, I think that's reallyinteresting to think about.
But at the same time, the flipside is we're very mindful to
not like line, extend and createthese, like you know, anchors
models.
Only going to work for anchor, Iguess, is a way that I'll say

(17:51):
it.
We've seen some others in ourcategory kind of follow that
path and we'll see where itleads them.
I think you should focus onsolving the problem that you're
really good at, not just likecreating like a suite of things
for the sake of creating a suiteof things.
That's certainly somethingwhere we have more resources and
capabilities to be able tothink about it From bigger

(18:12):
picture.
But one thing I'll say, onemore thing I'll say, is that
both Descript and Squadcast havealways been focused on the
actual creator experience beforeyou hit publish, right,
everything before you hitpublish, I guess, is part of the
creator experience, and theneverything that your three other
piece those are on like theconsumption side, from the
perspective of the creator.

(18:33):
So, yeah, we like to focusupstream of the publish button
and I think that's probably agood guidepost for us, like
where we should focus.

Sam Sethi (18:42):
Now Rock.
You mentioned yesterday thatyou've got new titles.
What are your titles?
Let's get those out of the way.

Yeah, so my title is financial operations manager,
so I get to really specializein areas that I'm extremely
interested in and stuff that Igot to work on at Squadcast, so
it doesn't feel completelyunfamiliar to me now at Descript
.
But working with the financeand sales teams, those are
things that I look forward tospecializing in and growing in
and I think it will make me abetter professional and founder.

(19:11):
Like I said, I'll miss a lot ofthe things about being a
founder, but there are somethings like payroll and taxes
and a bunch of other heavytopics that are extremely
important.
Yeah, that too.
Well, I don't know about that.
We're still getting it, butless hats to wear, I will say
and, zach, I'll let you sayyours.

Yeah, I'm the engineering manager on the
recorder team here at Descriptand that includes, yeah, like
Squadcast, but also the surfacesin the Descript app.
There's an existing team for us, so we're growing together as
one team and that's been reallygreat because there's a lot of

(19:54):
knowledge here and a lot of waysthat the recorder shows up in
the Descript experience.
That, frankly, like atSquadcast, we have never focused
on what an individual recordingexperience should be like Just
you recording by yourself.
We have always been focused onsolving the problem of multiple
people, collaborative recording,and I think it's really

(20:16):
interesting like the differencesand similarities.
It's non trivial.
I think that there's like a lotof things that we bring to the
table when it comes to likemultiplayer recording.
You know from all over theworld and on the web.
You know Descript'shistorically been a desktop app,
so them moving up to the web asa first class experience I

(20:40):
think is also a really importantpart of this story that we're
excited to contribute more to.

Sam Sethi (20:46):
Yeah, I think.
As I said earlier, I think it'sgoing to be an acquisition of
equals.
I don't think it's a one sizefits all Now.
Last thing then really, wherecan guys go and girls go to find
out more about what thisacquisition means?
Where's the info?

All of the socials at Descript or at Squadcast, fm,
of course, both on pages, bothapps.
It should be hard to miss, Iwould say Now on that point very
quickly.

Sam Sethi (21:10):
I mean it's already on the app.
It says, you know, squad costby Descript.
I mean no offense, guys, butyou know, will the squad cost
brand survive or is it going toquietly wither on the vine?
What's going to happen with it?

It's a good question.
Yeah, it'll fade.
I think we'll have a.
We'll have an informal,informal ceremony to put it to
rest.
But, yeah, I think that I thinkto them being two apps is just
a side effect of them being twoapps before and having, you know
, multiple mountains of work todo to get them to be one app.

(21:46):
But I'm also optimistic abouthow quickly we can show up and
make that happen.
So it's unclear exactly how longit'll take.
It's going to be the case.
Right now.
The answer is for a long timeprobably.
We then we expect, but there'salso multiple paths we can take
here.
So I think choosing that pathis still something that that

(22:07):
we're doing and that's wherelistening to our customers as to
which path you know they thinkwould make the most sense here.
And then, yeah, I love thesquad cast brand name and you
know logo iconography.
Shout out to our OG designer,alec, for creating both
generations of our branding,because we updated it at a point

(22:27):
to to make refinements and theAlex saw both of those through
to to success.
So, yeah, I'll be sat as adesigner to see the brand go to
rest, but I'm thinking aboutgetting it tattooed on me
somewhere.

Sam Sethi (22:39):
Or you could rename the company.
How about D cost?
Go and have a chat with Adam.
I'm sure he'll be happy to.

Cameron (22:49):
Yeah, I'll pick it.

Sam Sethi (22:50):
Thanks, guys, you take care.
Speak to you soon.

Zach and Rock at Squadcast.
Many congratulations to them,because, of course, this ties in
with a brand new version ofDescript as well.
Right, sam?

Sam Sethi (23:02):
It does, in fact.
What's quite interesting isthey must have been working on
this for several months.
I said they did because whatyou've got now is a new version
of Squadcast that's got deeperintegration to Descript and, of
course, descript have launchedtheir new version.
They've also launched their webversion, so no longer do you

(23:22):
need to download an app to useit.
And, of course, the nice thingabout it is when I was
interviewing Zach and Rock, Iactually then finished the
interview and clicked one buttonthat's now new in Squadcast,
called Edit to Descript, and itinstantly put it straight into
Descript, transcribed it and hadthe names of the people
attached to it as well.

(23:43):
It was very cool.
Integration.
That's the first part of thenew version of Descript.
They've added some new tools aswell, james.
What have they added?

Yeah.
So they've added a regenerationtool which, basically, if I say
a word, but I managed to dropmy pencil or something while I'm
saying the words banana, thenwhat you can basically do is you
can get the Descript tool torebuild me saying the word
banana without the noise of thepencil dropping, which is very

(24:14):
clever, so you can use thosesorts of things to cover up for
bad edits or glitches.
There's a thing called EyeContact, which edits video to
keep your eyes on the camera ifyou're producing video as well,
and Replace Selection lets youchange a part of the audio or
video you're working on withoutmessing the timings up of

(24:36):
everything else, and goodness,that's a useful tool.
There's also a web interface aswell, and you've not just
caught up with Squadcast, butyou've caught up with Descript
as well.

Sam Sethi (24:48):
Yeah, the wonderful Jayla Berth, who's head of
development, and I asked himabout any acquisition, but also
why and what's going on withDescript's new version.

We have acquired the number one battle tested
remote recording solution,probably the best gift for
podcasters we could possibly get.

Sam Sethi (25:07):
And we're using it right now.
Now, I've been a long user ofboth Descript and of Squadcast,
so I'm very pleased as a user toget any other role in my life.
I literally went in and watchedthe whole of the video
presentation and the Q&A wentstraight over to my Squadcast
and Descript apps and instantlythere was another level of

(25:29):
integration.
So congratulations on that.
It's seamless.
We'll talk about what the plansare coming forward, but let's
take a step back.
When did you sit down with theexec team and say you know what?
We need to go and acquire avideo recording company?
When did that happen?

Well, something we've been talking about since
as long as I've been there,which is a very beginning of
2020, we need a remote recordingsolution.
We need to find a way forpeople to get their high quality
recordings and bring them intoDescript for the editing
experience.
And once the pandemic hit, oncewe got into 2020, everybody's
on Zoom.
All the time.
People realized that the magicof just being able to hit record

(26:10):
on Zoom.
But therein came all theproblems.
We were getting from customerssaying, hey, can you split out
multiple video streams, becauseI only recorded the single one.
Or hey, do you have anythingthat can make video quality
better?
Because it's glitchy or droppedout or it just it isn't making
us look good.
So from that moment on, werealized, you know, podcasters
needed a better solution and, ofcourse, podcasters had already

(26:32):
found solutions.
Squadcast existed as a companybefore Descript and they had
already done a lot of the hardwork in solving the hard
problems.
If you think about remoterecording, like what we're doing
right now, this is like, inmany ways you'd think who would
want to get into this businessLike because if it fails, it's
catastrophic.
If it fails, there's a lot ofswearing, there's a lot of like

(26:53):
contacting support.
It's very urgent and the higheryour production budget, the
higher your VIP level on yourguest, the higher the stakes.
And whenever we startedexperimenting with this,
squadcast was clearly the mostreliable.
We were on different Facebookgroups and Discord.
Everybody was talking about howreliable it was, how it
corrected for audio drift thatmost other solutions don't

(27:15):
correct, for how it doesprogressive upload, so you don't
have to sit around and wait for10 minutes at the end of the
session for everything to comeup.
So, as a company, as atechnology, it seemed rock solid
.
It seemed like a really goodplace to go.
Also, around 2020, I was reallytrying to learn who the key
players were in the podcastingspace and I met the founders,

(27:37):
zach and Rock, at podcastmovement evolutions and we
started talking at conferences,doing Zoom calls.
They're over in Oakland.
I'm in San Francisco.
We're just getting to know eachother and that was another key
part of this.
Companies don't acquirecompanies, people at companies
acquire people and technology atcompanies.
So that relationship that ourcompanies have had really since

(27:58):
2020 has been pretty strong.
Now, to directly answer yourquestion, once a year since 2020
, we really think about how arewe going to address this and
what are some differentapproaches we could try.
Last summer Descript users willremember we had a big launch
for edit in Descript, which wasa new API that allowed people to
take the content that they hadin remote recording tools like

(28:22):
Squadcast and Riverside andRestream and also podcasts
they'd published in Captivateand with one click they can
bring those directly intoDescript.
You can look back on that asyou know what we thought that
might be a good way to solve theproblem at the time, and that
was us like dipping our toes inand realizing that we actually
need a more comprehensivesolution.

(28:42):
We thought we had taken theproblem maybe halfway, but at
the end of the day, we need tojust provide these tools and
make them totally integratedinto the app to get the
experience we want.
So we really get to know themdeeply, doing co-marketing and
the technical integration lastsummer and that's at the stage
for the acquisition this summer.

Sam Sethi (29:01):
I'll ask.
I know the answer, but I'll askhow much was it?

We're not disclosing the terms, but all of
the value from the deal isprovided directly to Descript
and Squadcast users.
The most common question I'vebeen answering and no one seems
to believe me, sam is that ifyou're a Descript customer, it's
free.
You get remote recording now.

Sam Sethi (29:20):
I know that's amazing , it's really good.
Again, just talk me through.
You've acquired it.
It has a value.
You've taken it on board, didyou not think?
Because most companies wouldnaturally think, oh, I know what
we'll do, we'll create the proversion and that's what we're
going to put the video into, butthat's what naturally most
people do.
So again, talk me through thethinking in the company when you

(29:42):
went nah, you know what, we'rejust going to include it.

I mean, there is a lot of thought involved and,
hey, we're all trying to runcompany they're profitable here
and we're also trying to runcompanies that solve real user
pain points.
So we get to the point where weidentified remote recording is
actually something that shouldbe part of our stack of work, in
the same way that we keepadding AI functionality.

(30:07):
That's making the editingexperience better and we're not
going to charge more for thatediting functionality.
It's just part of thefoundation level of how you get
work done.
So that remote recording, thatcollaboration you know,
descript's always been acollaborative app where you and
I can be in the app at the sametime and we can edit, and now we
can edit together on the web.
So we should be able to, withone button, invite a guest,

(30:31):
invite a collaborator to yoursession.
They join your session.
Well, we've always had recordingtoo.
So you can take a few stepsinto where we're going with this
, and there's a world where itjust is such a natural part of
our stack and right now,squadcast is a separate tool.
We're keeping it as a separatetool and building this like rich
integration layer.
That's just phase one.
Phase two is it's one Descript,it's built in.

(30:54):
So, therefore, how could wecharge for something that's
going to be built in anyway?

Sam Sethi (30:59):
Okay, well, everyone else does.
When they call it a feature,that's what they charge.

That's true.

Cameron (31:04):
That's true.

Sam Sethi (31:04):
Okay, so let's take a step forward.
Now I talk about somethingcalled the five P's.
Again, I hasten to add, no oneelse in the marketer Well, no
one else in the world does, butI just.
I'm simple.
So I have pre-production,production, post-production,
privatization and publicity rate, basically those five boxes
where my head sits in theworkflow of producing a podcast

(31:28):
and what Descript was was alwaysmy post-production tool and
Squadcast was my production toolitself.
So where will you in the?
Will you go horizontally withfurther integration?
Now, will you do things likecalendly integration so I can
book a guest?
Will you do I don't knowsnippets from using AI, you know
, so that I can post stuff about, or or put video clips onto

(31:52):
Tickton and X, as we have to nowcall it?
I mean, what may be in thepipeline?
Can you give us a little hint?

Yeah.
So let's talk about a fewthings.
First off, we do see ourselvesas an all in one, very
horizontal product.
So we actually want to be ableto have someone in Descript for
as much of the process aspossible.
And with Squadcast we now addin the recording part which, as
a single player, you couldalways record.

(32:19):
Before, or there were ways tokind of coax other recordings in
live into Descript, but now younatively record into Descript.
Now the squadcast team actuallyhas a suite of APIs that do
allow for that Calendlyintegration.
So there are APIs with Calendly, with Zapier, where you can
automate getting guests intoyour squadcast a little sooner.

(32:41):
So that's that's a prettyexciting part of it.
That's something that I knowZach in particular is very proud
of the work they've done there,and a lot of studios that we
work with, like ESPN for example, will use that functionality as
part of their whole likemanagement process.
On the Descript side, contentcomes in.
You do all your editing there.
We have a suite of publishingintegrations so you can publish

(33:05):
natively to YouTube and withYouTube it will carry over the
chapter markers that you'vecreated in Descript.
It'll bring over the transcript, it'll bring the SRT
automatically, so you don't haveto like download it and re
upload it.
So these are some of the thingswe have on the publishing
integration side, the AIsummarization pieces.
One could imagine being backedby open AI, that we might have

(33:28):
an interest in things like that.
But those are announcements.
Now you have to come on what wedo and how we choose to.

Sam Sethi (33:34):
I'm not asking you to a pre-announce product that you
can't do but we can talk abouta new version of Descript.
You've launched a new versionwith tools like regenerate eye
contact, replace selection andalso the new web interface.
Is it out of beta?
Is it now fully available or isit still in beta?

Yeah.
So depending on what day of theweek people listen to this, my
answer will be more or lesstruthy.
So Descript is out of the web,so let me explain what that
means for people that are veryconfused.
Descript historically has beena desktop app for Mac and
Windows, and it always kind ofworked in the web.

(34:15):
It was like this fun partytrick that you could pull it up
on an iPad in Safari orsomething and see that your
Descript project would open.
You could see everything, butyou couldn't make edits.
The only thing you could reallydo with it is comment, and so
what we did is we wanted toactually have a fully native
version of Descripts that ran inany web browser.

(34:36):
So now in any Chrome tab youcan go to webdescriptcom.
It'll show you the same viewyou have as your desktop app.
In fact, it looks completelyidentical.
It is fully identical.
There's a few features we'restill trying to get working.
So the recorder, for example,if you do use the video recorder
or the audio recorder native toDescript, that won't work quite

(34:59):
yet, but Squadcast kind ofsolves that problem and right
now you can open any project youhave, play it back, add new
files, transcribe and do someediting there and where that's
actually useful for customers isa lot of us are collaborating
with people and they don'tnecessarily want to have to
download but a new desktop appAlso a lot of you listen to this
might know Descript for thedialogue we have in the bottom

(35:22):
right, which is a new update, isavailable.
Well, on a desktop app, youhave no choice.
When we have new features, whenwe have bug fixes, when we have
performance improvements, wehave to do that, and so really
every week, if not every fewdays, we're pushing out a new
version of the app that has allthe latest improvements.
On the web version, you don'thave to worry about that anymore
.
It's just always there.
So you know we're hoping, aseverybody collaborates with more

(35:43):
and more people on theirworkflows, the web version is
going to solve most of yourproblems.
For the highest performanceusers, you'll always want a
desktop app, just like we arewith our other productivity
tools.
Cool, so that's the Descript onthe web.

Sam Sethi (35:55):
Cool.
Now let's go through some ofthese functions.
What is Regenerate?

Yeah, All right.
So Regenerate is we think of itas our healing brush.
For those that know Photoshop,it is basically your magical
bandaid for an edit that doesn'tsound good and just needs
fixing.
Or for a speaker who's kind oftrailing off and you kind of

(36:19):
need them to pick up the pace alittle bit or fix what they said
.
Or the third instance of thinkof it when you want to like
studio sound, an errant sound inthe background.
So if a dog starts barkingwhile you are delivering your
killer line, you need that dogbark removed.
And so the way that we do it,it's all variations of using our

(36:41):
overdub technology.
So for that little snippet intime where either my voice
trails off and I forgot what Iwas going to say, or there's
just a really bad, unnaturalsounding edit, we can actually
regenerate that person's voice,saying that one or two words.
So we're not saying entirelynew sentences, entirely new

(37:02):
paragraphs, just that one or twowords to make the edit sound
seamless.

Sam Sethi (37:07):
Cool.
Now you talk about overdub andthat was the one of the amazing
first product features that Iremember from Descript and it's
got better over time.
Where is it now?
Because you know the firstversion was half an hour to
train, then it's down to fiveminutes to train and I noticed I
can train it while it's lookingat my existing transcription.

(37:28):
So, in terms of voice qualityand in terms of accuracy, where
do you believe you are now onthe curve?

Yeah.
So voice cloning and text tospeech is one of the most
rapidly evolving spaces in allof generative AI.
The good side is that westarted doing this before
anybody else.
We've been doing it five, sixyears.
The Lyrebird team was the onesthat actually pioneered this,
going back to like 2017, 2018.

(37:56):
So we continue to make a ton ofimprovements.
I still feel like we are thebest.
I think it sounds the mostnatural.
The amount of training materialthat you mentioned just is
smaller and smaller.
You don't have to read a scriptanymore.
Anybody can train their ownvoice, and it's that type of
technology which is making notonly longer form audio text to

(38:16):
speech just better, but makesthings like regenerate even
possible.

Sam Sethi (38:21):
No, and that's great, and I sometimes use it, as you
say, for corrective nature.
One of the other thingsobviously we talked about a
little while back open AIinvesting into Descript, and one
of the things you told me inthat interview was that there
will be a point at which openAI's whisper replaces Rev.
When, or has that happenedalready?

It is actively in progress.
So to support a lot of ourusers, whisper is behind the
scenes for many Firsttranscription users not all and
so it's something that'scurrently rolling out, and our
goal is to provide the highestquality transcription, and your
typical user really doesn't carewho their transcription

(39:03):
provider is.
They just want the best qualityresults.
So we're in the process ofrolling that out right now.

Sam Sethi (39:07):
Okay, cool.
Now the other features that youare in the process of launching
is one's called eye contact,which I saw Andrew Mason do a
video of which is kind of spookybut kind of clever.
And what eye contact is.

First of all, have you tried it?

Sam Sethi (39:22):
No, I haven't.
No, I need to.

No, I need to try it's no, there are several
things that I will never forgethaving seen for the first time,
one of which was the first timeI got a glimpse at GPT-4.
We had access to it very earlyon and I asked it a question and
I saw the result and my mindwas blown Up.
There in that top five list ofthings I will never kind of

(39:46):
unsee is the first time I got ademo of the eye gaze correction,
or eye contact.
So even as we're doing thisinterview, I'm kind of torn
between well, do I look at thecamera or do I look at you,
which is like about two inchesoff?
But we're very perceptive oneye contact, and both for
podcasters that might be doingan intro reading off of a script

(40:06):
for a certain section, for alot of our business users that
are going to just be talking offa script most of the time.
Even teleprompter work, readingoff a teleprompter is a skill
and you can still see somebody'seyes tracking back and forth.
So with this eye contactcorrection, basically it looks
at your eye and it I don't knowhow rotates it in its socket, so

(40:32):
that way you are staringstraight at the camera and when
you blink, it blinks when youlook too far off access.
You know, when I look down tothe ground, it's not trying to
like artificially make myeyeball come out of my forehead,
it's totally fine.
It is one of those things, thatkind of like studio sound, where
it just, in my opinion, justalways makes your audio sound

(40:53):
better, and it's a creative tool.
You can choose to use it or youcannot.
We are using iContact onincreasingly more of our stuff.
We see it as one of the mostpopular effects that people are
now trying out, because thereare times, especially during the
intro segment, maybe Maybedon't keep it on for the full
hour of your recording, butduring the intro segment your
viewers really need to see youduring that time, during a

(41:16):
social clip that you're going topost, turn it on.
I would encourage everybody toexperiment with it.
That is still in beta.
We're trying to make it evenbetter, even faster, and we want
to learn, so send me yourfeedback.

Sam Sethi (41:27):
You know what I'm doing straight off this, don't
you?

You're going to record something, Read it.
Open your favorite website andjust read directly off of it and
then see what happens.

Sam Sethi (41:36):
That's pretty much I needed this in 2019, when I was
trying to read Cara Swishes bioand I'm like looking like this
slightly off camera, yeah.

Yeah.

Sam Sethi (41:43):
Trying to keep contact with it.
So, yes, that would have beenhelpful.
Now, other features that are inthis new version.
The last one is replaceselection.
What's that?

Replace selection .
So you're recording off of ascript and you rarely get the
script down the first time.
It usually starts with thewritten version.
First of okay, let me type outwhat I'm going to say.
We're seeing peopleincreasingly use dScript for
pre-production, for putting down.
Here's what the script is thatI want to say.

(42:14):
Maybe they assign either theirown overdub voice to it to kind
of read it out.
That's the workflow thatMalcolm Gladwell's team uses for
revisionist history, wherethey'll type out the scripts
that Malcolm should say, assignit to Malcolm's overdub voice,
and then what they would do isthey get to the next phase,
which is okay.
Now we need to actuallyre-record this thing.

(42:36):
Well, for people that are doinga lot of visuals so maybe the
revisionist history team has anepisode where they've already
chopped it into scenes andthey've already dropped in some
b-roll, they've dropped in someaudio clips you need a way to
take the real audio, the realMalcolm recording on his high
quality mic, and automaticallyalign it to the script, either

(42:58):
the text based script or evenjust like what you do is a
scratch track.
So what replace script actuallydoes is you can go in, you can
record, it will automaticallylook at what you just said and
stitch it in, line it up.
It doesn't have to be word forword.
You can have some extra fillerwords, you can have some improvs

(43:19):
in there, and what it will dois take your new audio, replace
your existing audio, but keepall of the visuals, keep all the
audio that you spotted and justallow you to go in at the last
minute and replace it with thehighest quality audio possible.
And it's like being able to, ifyou're a musician, go in and
just kind of like, do that lastsolo at the end.

(43:41):
You don't expect to do the soloat the end and then have to
re-record the whole track withthat, with a G-script.
Now you can do that.

Sam Sethi (43:47):
Nice.
There's a couple other thingsI've seen that you've added in
because I'm on the beta.
One is the fixing of thetranscription, which is quite
cool.
Is there anything else thatmight be popping out before it
goes live that I've forgotten?

The other thing that I would hope everybody has
noticed as well and if youhaven't noticed, that it's also
a sign of success is justquality improvements.
So we spent the first half ofthe year really focused on
listening to our users andgetting quality, so that way,
there's really no difference.
In fact, the version that wehad launched on which we had
code named Storyboard Storyboardis in use by like 98% of all

(44:25):
users Descript Classic.
It's being sunset very, very,very soon, and so everybody
should be using the latestversion of Descript, especially
with Descript on the web.
It's faster, much moreperformance, higher quality.
That's the other thing that Ithink we'd want to cover is it's
not just about adding all ofthese like newfangled AI

(44:46):
features for your workflow.
At the end of the day, we wantpeople using Descript day in and
day out, and with Squadcast,you now have yet another reason
to make this a tool that's adaily, active tool for a lot of
us that are content creators.

Sam Sethi (44:59):
Yeah, talking about a classic.
When you do sunset it, I meanobviously everything's labeled
classic or new version.
Will your classic versions justbe migrated over?

They'll be auto migrated over.
So there's no proactive stepsthat someone needs to take to go
back and find their classicversions.
That magical date when itarrives very soon, you'll just
see your project was autoconverted to a new project.
You'll open it up and it willjust work identical as before.

Sam Sethi (45:27):
Brilliant Jay.
Thank you so much.
Congratulations on theSquadcast acquisition.
Congratulations on the newreleases.
I look forward to talking toyou very soon.

Thanks for having me on Sam Jay LeBurf from
Descript and Squadcast.
I guess these days if you wantto go and see the larger team
then you'll find them a podcastmovement, booth number 700, it
says it's always very excitingwhen they say Booth number 700.
I will tell you exactly wherethat is.
That is opposite from the podnews stand.

(45:57):
So if you find the pod newsstand, then Descript is straight
opposite.
So I'll be waving to them allthe way through the entire show,
so that'll be fun.

Sam Sethi (46:08):
Cool Now.
We talked a couple of weeks agoabout Adam Curry's new Booster
Grand Ball podcast and why itwas quite unique in that it had
actually used the ability tohave live music and pay that
musician in real time.
Adam's been doing quite well.

(46:28):
He put out a post, didn't he,james, about how much he's paid
the artist so far.

Yes, he did, and this was only after publishing
the third edition of the BoosterGrand Ball, so pretty early
days.
But he has already sent over$1,100 to music artists not him,
of course, but the peoplelistening to that particular
show have already sent thatamount of money.

(46:55):
I worked it out that it's onlyhad 6,400 downloads so far,
which isn't a massive amount,but actually that makes the
$1,100 even more impressive,because that works out to be an
equivalent of $185 cost perthousand.
Now, if you bear in mind thatpodcast advertising is rather a

(47:17):
lot less than that, that's aparticularly good number.
Or indeed, if you look at itjust per download, it's 18 cents
per download, which is atremendous thing too.
So, yes, some really nicenumbers coming out of that, and
I think it does show that, whileit's still very, very early
days, there is definitelysomething in this, so very

(47:39):
exciting.

Sam Sethi (47:40):
Yes, and also one of the artists there, ainsley
Costello, has gone over the $1million satsmark now on Wave
Lake, which is again equallyimpressive.

Yes, no, it's fantastic news and Ainsley
Costello listening to this veryshow.
How do I know this?
Because you just wait untilBoostergram Corner later on.
But you have been talking aboutall of the technology that
makes this stuff possible,haven't you?

Sam Sethi (48:06):
Yes, We've been sort of, over the course of pod news,
been talking about things likepod ping, the medium tag,
alternative enclosures, remoteitems and the value time split.
These are some of thetechnology pieces in podcasting
2.0 that, when you put them alltogether, you end up with the
Boostergram Ball or James' musicshow, which you did as well.

(48:29):
So I mean you know how this allconnects together and all the
bits behind the scene that makeit work.
I mean, before we go into aninterview, would you say it was
easy, hard, I mean now thatyou've done it.

I mean, I think that clearly there needs to be
tools to make life much easier,and there are some tools
available out there.
I ended up doing what Inormally do, which is copy
somebody else's RSS feed andwork out what was in there and
fix it for myself.
So you know.
So it was certainly.

(49:04):
It was certainly, you know,easy enough once you understood
how the thing works.
But yeah, it's, you know, very,very early days and, I think,
very early days just in terms ofsupport from individual players
as well.
I know that some players hadproblems and some players will
continuing to have issues withsome of this stuff, but you know

(49:27):
, that's what this phase is forit's phase of bug fixing and
it's a phase of making sure thateverything works.

Sam Sethi (49:35):
So I thought I'd go and find out how this all really
works.
Though, James, there's a guycalled Sir Alligate.
He works alongside Adam andDave.
He's one of the people whodoesn't really come to the fore
and make a shout about what hedoes, but he's been heavily
involved in making most of thistechnology, so I thought I'd go
and find him and ask him abouthow this all works and where he

(49:56):
sees it all going as well.
A lot of the things that I getexcited about in the new
podcasting space.
Again, these are things thatyou've been working on, so let's
start off with a couple ofthings.
Let's start off with podping.
Explain what is podping first,before we go into why you
produced it.

Podping is a decentralized RSS feed update
notification system, and that'sreally all there is to it, but
what that allows us to do withit is basically stop polling and
also enable live streamnotifications.

Sam Sethi (50:32):
Yeah.
So, fundamentally, beforepodping, people with an app like
mine would sit there and pollor go to the host hey, any
update, any update, any update.
And then it would go no, no, no, no, no, no and eventually one
time it would go yes, and thenI'd pull the file.
But the problem was it wasprocessing and bandwidth and
cost.
So podping fixes that.

Yeah, Knowing when the host has actually changed
the feed.
It is a remarkable change inarchitecture fundamentally
across the entire ecosystem.

Sam Sethi (51:02):
Now is every host supporting this.

I think most have gotten on board yes, most of
them through podpingcloud, butthere are a few that are also
self-hosted.

Sam Sethi (51:12):
Okay, Now you said.
Something else that I thoughtwas really interesting was
notifications.
What do you mean by podpingnotifications?

Podping notifications are essentially an
indicator to end userapplications that something that
the user cares about knowing inreal time is changing the feed.
That's what enabled a lot ofthe live streams that we're
doing today, but we can even domore within the future.
Give me an example.
Well, right now it's simple,things like if you need to

(51:44):
update your value blocks in realtime because you've made a
mistake.
There's a podcast app, tillisand update that as they need.
But some of the future thingswe might be doing would be
notifying that the podcastapplication needs to update the
chapters.

Sam Sethi (51:59):
Okay.
So that was a fundamentalbuilding block in terms of
allowing apps to know whensomething had changed.
And then Lit, the live item tag, was built on top of that.
Tell me more about Lit.

Well, live item tag.
That was a collaborationbetween several of us who wanted
to solve a problem and I meanthat's not really that
complicated.
From the specification at theside of the house, that's
basically just an item, an RSSitem that tells the application
that there's a live streamhappening right now and it
reuses all those elements.

(52:35):
But, like a lot of the featuresthat we have today, it's been
hard for people to wrap theirheads around.
So it's been.
That's been two years in thework actually.

Sam Sethi (52:45):
Yeah, one of the things I mean.
Again, you know there's manyapps that support live item tag
fountain, podverse, cast of podfans, pod friend.
Many of the new podcasting 2.0tag apps support it.
The question I've got is whyare so few hosts providing the
interface for podcasters?

I think the user interface and the hosting side
isn't as simple as people wantto think.
It also requires extrainfrastructure, which is
additional cost, quite frankly.
So some of the ones that areallowed to do it right now on
the hosting side, like sovereignfeeds, that requires you bring
all your own pieces.
So I've added it to somethinglike peer tube, but that took

(53:27):
quite a bit of work and it'sstill I mean, the only thing you
have to bring there is your ownpodping key.

Sam Sethi (53:33):
So, as a host, I've often called it the technology
escalator.
Right, Hosting is now acommodity.
It's basically everyone's gotthe similar price.
You know, there's a free offer,there's a pro offer, there's an
advanced offer, whatever.
I would expect hosts to go ohokay, what's the next thing on
the technology escalator I canoffer as a value added service?

(53:54):
And it just seems to me thatoffering a live item service, so
a server that they couldactually broadcast with, that
could go into a configurationfield just on their RSS feed,
would seem a logical thing.
Now, the amount of people whomight take it up to begin with
is going to be small, but again,you might just price it in the

(54:16):
advanced section so that onlythose that are really interested
are going to try it.
Wouldn't that seem logical?

Yeah, I think pricing is one of the biggest
issues and we've heard from, Imean, one of the issues with a
successful podcast is a lot ofthe hosting pricing models
doesn't account for success,right?
So I think some of the hostsshould if they want to do live,
they should consider pricingchange.
If you do value for value andget the podcast or add them to
their split.

Sam Sethi (54:43):
Now you mentioned something called PeerTube.
Let's take a step about what isPeerTube first.

PeerTube is essentially a self-hostable
YouTube alternative that is kindof in the Federation, along
with Macedon, for example, soyou can follow PeerTube from
Macedon if you want.
But it also allows users tohelp share bandwidth, which has
traditionally been one of thebig problems with video.

Sam Sethi (55:07):
Yeah, and so you can spin up your own instance.
Is this the idea, then, that Icould record a podcast, like
we're doing now, and have thevideo element broadcast out, or
is it purely for live broadcast?
Is it pre-recorded or live, orboth?

It does both.
I think it's been traditionallydesigned for pre-recorded up
until now and as a PeerTube Ithink it's a 5.2.
You'll actually get a podcastfeed if you want to use with
that.
But live has been developing asTwitch has become more popular
and they've had their own issuestoo.

Sam Sethi (55:43):
So can I pay for live and PeerTube with Satoshi's?

Yeah, actually, if you install PeerTube and
there's something called thelightning plugin, you can add as
a host, you can add yourself asa, you can get a percentage
split which helps pay for theserver and service and
everything.
But you can also, as a podcast,or add your own value blocks in
there too.

Sam Sethi (56:08):
Right, so let's step back a second then.
So if I wanted to do a livebroadcast, I can go in and I can
configure probably manuallytoday because most hosts don't
support live.
So manually in my RSS feed Ican put a live item tag, I can
configure the URL to point to aPeerTube instance and I can also

(56:33):
put a value block inside ofthat would allow me to pay for
that hosting bandwidth, correct.

Yeah, if you want to do it with your own feed.
Yes, so for audio, you havelike the MP3 live stream in
YouTube.
It's just a different video URL.

Sam Sethi (56:49):
Now, one of the other tags that you helped bring to
life was called the alternativeenclosure tag.
First of all, explain what itis, and then I'll ask you a
follow-up question.

Alternative enclosure developed as a way to
re-host the same content indifferent codecs.
Essentially, If you have an MP3, but you want to offer a
smaller file size in Opus, forexample, you could do that.
Or if you want to support AC,you can also offer that, which
I'm kind of amazed.
Apple doesn't support thatright now, and then it also

(57:22):
allows you to.
If you have like a torrentversion or an IPFS version of an
MP3, you can add that in thesame way.

Sam Sethi (57:31):
Okay, could I have a situation where I have my audio
as my main feed and thealternative enclosure is a
PeerTube instance?

Yeah, you can.
I don't know if any apps thatwould support it, but it's
definitely doable.

Sam Sethi (57:46):
The next part of what I wanted to talk about before
we get onto what I really amexcited about, which is remote
item and value time splits.
But at the moment, there seemsto be a lack of end user tools
or podcast creator tools toallow people to easily set up a
live item tag, to easily set upthe alternative enclosure or to

(58:07):
easily do what we're going tocome on to talk about.
You know, the value time split.
Is this just a time waitingbetween you and Dave and Adam
coming up with all thistechnology and running with
scissors and with steel as welland people like Oscar and Mitt
and Mardov and others producingthe tools that are end user

(58:30):
friendly?
Is that where we are now inthat gap?

Yeah, I think in a lot of the applications, like
you mentioned, have already donea lot of this.
I think a lot of it's on thehosting and software side and
that's I mean we haven't had newfeatures in so long.
It's kind of understandablethat some of the stuff is taking
time to implement, but it'salso so.
It's almost a paradigm shift.

(58:54):
We're not used to having realtime things in RSS and I think
people are still getting used tothat.

Sam Sethi (59:01):
Okay Now with Adam and again he seems to you know
we talked about it on pod news afew weeks back created a
milestone in history with thebooster grand ball podcast that
he released, which was the firstpodcast to contain legal music
played within it.
But, more excitingly, it wasnot just legal music, but it was

(59:22):
legal music that was actuallyhaving the listener pay the
artist in real time.
Now that's using somethingcalled the remote item tag and
will come on to the value timesplit.
But, stepping back, we use theremote item tag to create
something called a pod role.
Explain what a pod role isfirst and explain what the right

(59:42):
item tag does, if you don'tmind, please.

This is one of the few things I actually had no
involvement in, but, as Iunderstand it, pod role is a
link to other podcasts that thepodcast recommends, and it uses
that by looking to the feed good, and so the RSS feed itself.
So if you reference a podcast,you don't have to file the new
feed every time you want yourrecommending changes hosts.

Sam Sethi (01:00:08):
So this is something that is a unique identifier,
isn't it for a podcast and foran episode as well?

Alecks Gates (01:00:15):
Yeah, so the podcast good tag, which I also
helped to kind of make, and thatbasically the podcast good is
once you have a good assignmentto your podcast, you bring that
with you wherever you go.
So it's not guaranteed to beunique, but I mean nothing else.
We've always kind of likeworked together, as with hosts
and apps, to make sure thatwe're all playing ball.

Sam Sethi (01:00:37):
Okay, and so, again, one of the things I'm quite
frustrated with is the lack ofsupport from hosts for something
as simple as the pod role.
I think that may change.
Dave this week implemented anew GUID, resolver, and that's
what I understand he's done, andhe's come out with some
endpoints for it, so it shouldallow hosts now to provide a

(01:01:00):
simple UI for podcast creatorsto go oh right, I want to create
a pod role here's, here's mythree or four podcasts I want to
link to, and they don't have toknow the GUID.
They could just look up thename of the podcast, like in a
basic search, and then it wouldactually store it correctly
within the RSS.
That seems to be a simple wayforward, doesn't it?

Yes, I know I can understand your reluctance to
not want to depend on thepodcast index for a lot of the
stuff.
I'll be honest yet we have along way to go to make sure GUID
is more reliable for everyone,and relying on the podcast index
to resolve it is definitelyproblematic.
So we have some ideas to makethat easier for everyone, and
that might be to work withsomething like podping to make

(01:01:44):
it a little more decentralized.

Sam Sethi (01:01:45):
Oh, okay, all right.
Well, watch this space.
Using that fundamental buildingblock, the remote item, you
came up with something newcalled the value time split.
So let's go into what is thevalue time split?

The value time split is essentially the
combination of our mode.
I, like we mentioned, and maybea soundbite or a clip.
It takes the remote referenceconcept and ties it together
with the time concept and tellsthe application hey, at this
time I want to reference thispodcast and use their value

(01:02:22):
blocks for this amount ofSatoshi's.

Sam Sethi (01:02:26):
Okay, so again, adam used that capability within the
BoosterGround Ball show andJames did something very similar
as well for a music show hecreated, and that's brilliant.
I then realized sorry, beforewe move on, one other thing is
you have splits in there as well, so for payments, don't you?

(01:02:46):
So you can set the amount ofstreaming sats that are being
diverted to the artist, correct?

Yes, it's not 100% one way or the other, because
obviously Adam still does a lotof work in producing his own
podcast, so I think he sends 95%to the artist.

Sam Sethi (01:03:05):
Very generous man, very generous, okay.
So I understand how that works.
I mean, it takes a little bitof time for people to get their
head round, but I can see whereyou've been building from, alex.
You've taken popping live itemtag, you've then taken remote
item, alternative enclosure andnow the value time split.
So it's all fitted in and Iguess, as I said, booster grand

(01:03:28):
ball was the pinnacle of all ofthat being brought together.
But the one other thing withinthat, then, is it dawned on me
the other day that a soundbitewhich is a user podcast
generated clip or a clip whichis a user generated clip is
actually the same thing as theway that we are treating music.

(01:03:48):
So for a clip, it has a starttime, it has a duration, and for
a soundbite, exactly the sameas start time and duration, and,
in fact, chapters are juststart times with a duration.
So it dawned on me the otherday that, actually, if I wanted
to take a clip of, let's say,adam's show with Dave and I
wanted to put that into pod news, I could actually use the

(01:04:10):
remote item with a FIDID Googlelookup and a duration and a
split, and I can actually payfor the audio clip that I
include within my own show.
That would work.

Yeah, and we have to be careful about just
plugging in any feed we want.
So this kind of I like to backup a bit and actually go in the
medium, because medium is kindof what I helped helps an
application and the hostidentify what an RSS feed is
intended to be and not just acategory, right?
So that's how we're doing musictoday.
That's what allows it.

(01:04:45):
If you search the podcast andextra music, you get music feeds
and that's what the medium is.
We also have list mediums likeplaylists basically, and that
allows us to do not only playwith some music or place a
podcast, but it allows you tobasically, as an app or user, to
host your own RSS feed andcreate clips of shows that you

(01:05:10):
listen to, and they're notnecessarily I mean, we're not
saying these are on the samelevel as first party clips.
So if a podcast or maybe wantsto opt out of user-generated
clips, we can go down that route, but it essentially makes it so
you can have cross-app clipsand fountain and podverse could
generate this on behalf of theusers.

Sam Sethi (01:05:32):
So one of the things I was thinking about is you
could have an export standardand an import standard around
that, which would be promoteitem, with a number of GUID and
start time, duration, splits, etcetera.
So you could actually create afile similar to what we had with
OPML, but updated now topodcasting 2.0, which could be

(01:05:54):
an export of a playlist that youcould import to another app or
export from another app.

You wouldn't even need that.
An application could starthosting RSS feeds for the users.
The beautiful thing about thatis they don't need to host the
audio, they just need to hostthe playlist that references the
other podcasts.

Sam Sethi (01:06:11):
Okay, I hadn't thought of it that way, nice.
The last thing that I'm lookingat well, two parts that I had a
question, which I'm glad youwere here to answer, is, first
and foremost, is the CreativeCommons license that we have as
a field within podcasting 2.0.

(01:06:31):
There is no license that Ilooked at that says the nearest
is Creative Commons share, like4.0, which is, yeah, you can
share my content and remix it,but there isn't a license to
share my content, remix it andpay me.
Is there?

Yeah, not that I'm aware of.
That's kind of just been thedefault in podcasting is 2.0.
I mean, there's a lot of murkyarea when you get a downloading
stuff right, but that's kind ofthe whole point of value.
Value is it pay what you want,not pay what I tell you to.

Sam Sethi (01:07:05):
Okay, and that may be the answer.
Maybe set your podcastinglicense Creative Commons license
to share a like and then justsimply assume the person who's
sharing your clip or taking apiece of your audio to share as
a clip will remunerate youthrough V for V.

Yeah, we still have some work to do, maybe even
some new specifications to say,hey, if you make a clip of this
, you could take 1%, orsomething like that.
We're still talking about thatnow.

Sam Sethi (01:07:36):
That's not a standard .
Okay, so that's a lot of stuff,alex, you've been working on.
Is there stuff on the cuttingroom floor or stuff in the alpha
that you aren't talking about?
I mean, what's coming down thetrack?

Yeah, I'm still one of the primary maintainers
for the podcasting writer thatwe use, with a special Dave in
the podcast index, and I'malways coming up with new ideas
as needed there.
So there's some possibleadditions that we might have
there, and that's a fundamentalthing, like whenever we want a
new medium or something.
If something that we don't knowabout came out, we would add

(01:08:10):
support to podping first sopeople could use it, and I'm
also thinking about ways to makepodping notifications easier
for standalone applications, forexample, antenna pod and
Android, maybe even some webapplications that don't have
servers.
That's going to be a big dealfor independent live streams

(01:08:31):
that don't have applicationsthat don't have infrastructure.

Sam Sethi (01:08:35):
I mean, one of the ones I thought about was radio
as a medium with a continuouscapability as the setting.
So Adams talked about, I think,a radio station, holland, that
wants to use the live item tankwith the capability to have a
schedule around shows, and Ijust thought, ah, set the medium

(01:08:55):
to radio and then set the timeto continuous.
Therefore you don't have astart and end time.

Yeah, that's one of the things.
I think Adam would say thatpodcasting is radio.
It's hard because the live itemis designed for the content
being played and not necessarilythe stream, so we're getting
some metadata issues there.
My feeling is that if you wanta 247 live stream, you could do

(01:09:29):
that, but today I think we're at100% retro, as an existing
example, and that just updatesthe new live item every time.
But we do have some issues withgoing from one live item to
another, which I think wesuddenly do address.

Sam Sethi (01:09:42):
OK, so last question, I guess, of all the tags that
you've worked on, which was theone that you would want most
hosts to adopt?

next, I would say I mean, they all kind of fit
together right.
Medium is fundamental becauseif you're a band and you want to
upload an album, that wouldallow, because right now a lot
of artists are either trying toself-host or going to Wave like
right, but medium is what allowsyou to have an album.

(01:10:11):
So if you wanted to self-hostan album and add value for value
, that would be the easiest wayto do it.
It's actually not that big of ashift.
But after that, I think valueand value time split are
probably the biggest ones.

Sam Sethi (01:10:26):
Again, I think I'll go back to what I said earlier.
I think we are lacking toolsfor non-technical musicians, as
an example, to create the feedsthat we would need to ingest
into apps.
I guess they will come, but Ican't quite work out who's going
to produce them.
Is it going to be a host?
I can't see that right now.

(01:10:47):
I don't think they're advancedenough yet.
I mean, they're not adoptingsome of the earlier tags, so I
can't see them adopting thevalue time split for a while,
and apps generally aren't goingto do that.
So people like Steven B, who isproducing standalone apps,
maybe the only way forward.

Yeah, stand-alone apps and maybe even some open
source solutions.
So, for example, I run PeerTubebut there's an existing
equivalent called Don't Laugh.
It's called Funkoil.
It allows you to host your ownmusic and the Fediverse.
And if we could add podcastsand two point out of that, that
would be a great alternativethat you can self-host or host
your community.

Sam Sethi (01:11:26):
Well, all I can say is Alex Gates, thank you so much
for all the hard work you do.
You do hide your light under abushel.
You don't really step forwardtoo much, but where can people
find you if they do want to findyou?

I think the easiest way to be.
I have a blog where I havelinks, so it would be
writedigatesio.
I'm also on the Fediverse, butit's a whole different domain
and everything.
So you can go to the podcastindex at social and you'll be
able to.
If you ask me there you'll findme.

Sam Sethi (01:11:54):
Alex, thank you so much for everything you do.
Thank you.

James Cridland (01:11:57):
Sir Alex Gates.
Is he a real sir?

Sam Sethi (01:11:59):
No, I think it's the sir of podcasting 2.0.
So, yes, I see, I don't getthis, but it's an in-joke, so he
wanted to be called it, but Ileft it in.
So there you go.

Absolutely.
That's what respecting thecurator does.
So you've been sort of having alittle look at this sort of
thing, haven't you?

Sam Sethi (01:12:20):
Yeah, look, I want to understand it as well.
In fact, sadly, I was playingwith putting a show together
yesterday, so you may find a sad20-minute DJ show as well for
me coming out soon.
But Excellent, excellent, nowait till you hear it.
Other than that, while I wasaway, I was thinking about how

(01:12:43):
the remote item works and howvalue time switch works.
Look, and it dawned on me,rightly or wrongly, that a clip
is just a time with a duration,a chapter is a time with a
duration.
So if everything is a time andduration, you could actually put
that within a remote item andcreate a value split.

(01:13:04):
Now, if you could do thatsuddenly, if we you and I wanted
to include a clip of Adam andDave from a Friday night show at
the moment we just take it, wejust go, yay, we'll go over
there, we'll grab the clip andwe'll put it into our show and
job done.
But actually, a bit like themusic, we could actually put

(01:13:25):
that into a value time split.
We could put a split and anystreaming sats coming through
now to this show would thendivert over to that clip.
So suddenly you've got thisability to take and remix audio,
not just music, and actuallythen allow that clip that you've
taken to get sats paymentswhile you're actually playing

(01:13:49):
your show.
So no longer do you have tosteal content, you can actually
reward the content owner.

So that's what I was thinking about.
Yeah, no, and I think thatthat's really interesting.
So at the moment, we're using,you know, fair use.
You can grab little clips, andparticularly fair use is
particularly helpful when youare talking about news reporting
, which this show is, but Icouldn't steal an entire
interview, because that reallywould be stealing.
But if we were using the value,the remote value item, then we

(01:14:16):
could certainly do that.
So that's a really interesting,interesting thought.
It's some some way into thefuture, though, isn't it?

Sam Sethi (01:14:24):
It is, and it goes back to what you said.
There needs to be.
Tools are made available.
Now I have had a look at thisand you know, obviously, stephen
B.
He's got split kit and he's gotsovereign fees and that's
probably the only tools around.
I think it will be beholden onwhether it's the host or the

(01:14:46):
apps to produce better tools,and I suspect it's going to be a
hybrid of those.
In fact, it won't be a host,because when we look at some of
the things that hosts areworking on, I think you know
RSScom has included an Albiwallet and split capabilities,
but there are other hosts whohaven't even started to include

(01:15:08):
wallets yet.
So, let alone now includingremote items and value time
splits and all this stuff.
I can't see hosts doing thisfor a while.
So it may be that, you know,fountain or myself or Mitch will
produce a tool that allows usto enable podcasters to create

(01:15:30):
content somehow.
I don't know that it's nevergoing to.
I can't see hosts going downthis road in the next six to 12
months.
So if we're to make this moveforward and tools are to be made
available, then someonesomewhere is going to have to do
it, and I don't know if it'sgoing to be the app providers as
well.

No, indeed.
Now, Boosterground Ball isinteresting for a number of
different reasons.
Firstly, it's interestingbecause of the value time split,
so you can pay the artists thatyou're listening to but it's
also interesting because it'susing a thing called IPFS, isn't
it?

Sam Sethi (01:16:03):
Yeah, now, I was really intrigued by IPFS a
couple of years back and Ithought, oh, here we go Back to
the roots of the web.
You know Skype, limewire,napster, this peer-to-peer
distributed system and I thought, great.
And then it just never seemedto go anywhere.
And then, out of nowhere, itappeared, adam just announced

(01:16:26):
that, yes, he's using this onthe IPFS network and I was like,
oh, that's amazing.
And then you did a trial withPod News Daily as well on there,
and someone had managed tocreate a payment gateway using
Sats for this IPFS net, whichthen meant you could put splits
back into your value block andsuddenly listeners were paying

(01:16:50):
for your hosting.
I think that's how it works,james.

Yeah, it's a really interesting model where a
podcast, instead of beinghosted in one place, gets hosted
in many different places and ifyou are hosting, then you get
to share in some of the Satsthat that particular podcast is
paid, which is all very cool.
So you spoke with a man calledCameron who lives in the woods

(01:17:16):
somewhere and you asked about Itracked him down and you asked
about IPFS and you asked aboutwhat it means for hosting in the
future.

Cameron (01:17:28):
Interplanetary file system.
It's a protocol for sharingfiles over the internet.
Okay, concur it to BitTorrent,where you share chunks of files
with other nodes.

Sam Sethi (01:17:41):
So I've always been a little bit confused.
I'm going to ask an expert likeyou Is it segments of data on
different nodes or is it a copyof the same file on different
nodes?

Cameron (01:17:53):
Every node has a full copy, but it does break it up
into segments and the chunks.
I think 256K is the default.
So when someone retrieves thefile, you might only give it a
chunk, Even though you have thewhole thing.
You might just give it aportion of the file and then
everybody else sends a differentportion.
So that's why it speeds it up alot faster when you're

(01:18:16):
downloading from multiple nodesinstead of trying to get the
file from a single node.

Sam Sethi (01:18:22):
Now, one of the things that you've done very
cleverly is you've added anability for Satoshi Micro
payments for people who arerunning a node to get paid.
Is that correct?

Cameron (01:18:35):
Yeah, yeah, I did that.
It's kind of tricky, but usingthe value for value system.
You know, if someone, if apodcaster, provides a split for
IPFS, I'll receive that, andthen, since my system knows
where the files are, I can sendout pieces of that payment to

(01:18:56):
all the nodes who are hostingthe content.
So basically, I divide up whatI get and turn around and send
it back to the nodes who havelightning.

Sam Sethi (01:19:03):
Okay, so let's take a step back.
So you've created a mechanismthat says you know podcasters
value block.
Give me a split.
I think it's 5% of the moment.
People are saying more thoughit could be.
You know people can give youmore.

Cameron (01:19:19):
Yeah, I'm curious what happens.
We started with 5% but you know, if a podcaster wants to give
more, they probably they mightget more nodes supporting their
show and if they give less, thenpeople might.
You know, it's a free market.

Sam Sethi (01:19:32):
Value for value.
Give me a little bit more, I'llgive you value.
Give me a little bit less, I'llgive you less value.
No, the thing that's I thinkreally exciting about this is
Adam and James have put theirpodcast up, so they went to IPFS
podcastingnet, which is yoursite.
They registered their RSS withyou and then that put that on to

(01:19:52):
the nodes.
Is that how it works?

Cameron (01:19:55):
Yeah, it's pretty much.
When you submit your feed toIPFS podcastingnet, I'll start
watching for new shows.
So I'm listening to PodPain.
You know the other anotherpodcasting to go into the future
.
When a show comes out, it'llnotify me and then I'll take
that show and notify the nodesand say, hey, there's a new show

(01:20:16):
out, so the nodes are going todownload that show.
And then they start sharing.

Sam Sethi (01:20:23):
And then?
So the podcaster now hasregistered their feed on your
IPFS net.
They then put the split intotheir podcast value block and
then when an app plays it, itlooks to an IPFS address to pull
the file from, as opposed topulling the file previously from

(01:20:45):
a host.
Is that again correct?
I'm just trying to get my headaround this.

Cameron (01:20:49):
Yes, so the podcaster has their own host.
But now we've got I've got anIPFS prefix, kind of like those
tracking prefixes for podcasters, where they give you stats.
Instead, the player will ask meyou know, can I do you have the
show in IPFS?
And if I do, then I'll turnaround and send them to the IPFS

(01:21:10):
network, and if they don't,then it goes back to the regular
host, the podcast host.

Sam Sethi (01:21:16):
Okay, so my question in there, cameron, was if the
IPFS doesn't have the file, howdoes it go back to the host?
Does it store the original hostin the alternative enclosure,
or how does it work?

Cameron (01:21:31):
Of the main enclosure you would put like a regular
podcast.
You just have your host andyour file wherever that is and
then in that same main enclosureif you use an IPFS podcast and
you can put a prefix in front ofyour pure out.
So if I don't have it, I'llsend it back to wherever your
original host is.

Sam Sethi (01:21:53):
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
And now, on the flip side ofthis, if I wanted to participate
as a node provided for storagein the IPFS network, how could I
do that?

Cameron (01:22:05):
You can run a node.
You go to the website.
I've written apps for umbralnodes and the start nine labs as
nodes.
You can just download the appand run it and you're pretty
much.
You're already in for kind ofanonymous hosting if you just do
that far.
But then you can create anaccount on the website if you

(01:22:26):
want to specifically say Ireally like this podcast and I
want to host all their shows orI want to host the shows from
now into the future.
So then you can kind ofconfigure your node via the
website on which shows or whichpodcast you want to host.

Sam Sethi (01:22:43):
Okay, so there's a capability to do that.
Is there a capability to say,actually I want to be the
default node that gets playedfirst, or how does the system
know which node to go to first?

Cameron (01:22:57):
That's all up to IPFS.
That's the protocol.
So all I can do, all I do issay it's out there.
So I send the player to an IPFSgateway to get the file and
then the gateway to set looksfor nodes out there who have the
file and it might find yournode or someone else's node.

(01:23:17):
You know you can't prioritizeyourself over anybody else.
Okay, so it's more cases, speedand yeah, if you have a better
connection, you're more likelyto post the file probably.

Sam Sethi (01:23:31):
Okay, so this is great.
This is changing again.
Adam, when he did boosterground ball, then he put it on
IPFS net and then, you know, inone week or one weekend, we were
seeing payments for artiststhrough SAP payments and we're
seeing hosting payments nowthrough IPFS.
Now I think this is such anexciting inflection point in

(01:23:54):
where we are with podcasting too, but where do you see it going
next?

Cameron (01:23:59):
That's a good question We've got to get.
We're trying to figure out howto use the gateways better.
Right now everything is goingthrough the IPFS gateway, which
is run by IPFS labs.
So ideally we want to run ourown gateways as a group.
You know, like, if we can getAdam to run a gateway and you

(01:24:22):
know Alberta at RSScom, you knowthese bigger pipes that can
handle it then they can serve upthe files to the players.
But they can also get the filesfrom these individual nodes
that everybody's running, sothey don't have to host the
files, they just have to streamit from the nodes.

Sam Sethi (01:24:42):
Okay, so they're like a cloudflare CDN in effect.

Cameron (01:24:46):
Yes, yeah, pretty close .

Sam Sethi (01:24:48):
Okay, so one of the things that James pointed out to
me I think it was in the termsand conditions was that it
wasn't for commercial use yet.
Is that simply a case of wedon't want Joe Rogan on here, it
will just kill the wholenetwork, or is it a case of no?
This is really not a commercialoperation.
This is just fun testing.

(01:25:10):
Where are we between the AlphaBeta, early testing, and getting
some sort of commercial, stableIPFS network that people can
rely on?

Cameron (01:25:20):
Yeah, I understand that too.
I see everyone using thegateways.
It's hard to tell what'sdevelopment and what isn't.
People back up their websiteson IPFS and they run through the
gateways to browse that way,and the Brave browser has an
option for IPFS, where they'verun you through that same
gateway.
So I started using it.
But yeah, technically, on theirdisclaimer they say, hey, this

(01:25:44):
is for development use.
We don't want to be hosting theentire internet through our
bandwidth, so ideally, we wouldwant to run our own gateways.
The IPFS podcasting networkcould run gateways and send
players to that instead of usingthe IPFS official gateway In
Cloudflare.
Cloudflare has a gateway.

(01:26:05):
I think there's maybe 20 or 30different gateways out there
that people run, and a lot ofthem are open.
A lot of them, though, it's fortheir customers only, so they
don't allow you to use them.
So I think that's the idea isthat we have to run our own
gateway as a group.

Sam Sethi (01:26:25):
Okay.
One question I did ask ofAlberto actually, was you have
your own IPFS network, you havethe largest node and it's based
in Italy.
Fundamentally, though, is thisa threat to host because, as you
said, you can go register yourfeed on IPFS podcastingnet and
then it will serve it from thenodes as opposed to from the

(01:26:47):
host Right.
I guess eventually, if itworked and you were convinced
that the nodes wouldn't go downand the whole network was stable
, you would say oh well, why amI paying $12 a month to host
with ex-host right?
Right, I could just put it onthere.

Cameron (01:27:04):
Right.

Sam Sethi (01:27:05):
So is it a threat to hosts?

Cameron (01:27:07):
Not technically.
Your files still have to existon the internet somewhere.
Like IPFS podcasting, the nodesread the file from a host to
get it onto the IPFS network.
So if you don't have itanywhere, you got to start out
somewhere.
But they could put it on theirown website or a Dropbox or

(01:27:28):
something like that if they wantto try to self-host and then
from there, once it's on IPFS,the files will come up.
Ipfs.

Sam Sethi (01:27:37):
So, cameron, if I've got my podcast already hosted
with Buzzsprout, then what's thebenefit of me hosting it as
well on IPFSnet?

Cameron (01:27:49):
Yeah for the cloud distribution, for the crowd
hosting concept of it, myoriginal concept.
When I created it, I was seeinga lot of people getting
de-platformed and kicked off asplatforms.
So with this, your fans arehosting your content instead of
a host that can shut you downwhich I'm not saying Buzzsprout

(01:28:11):
or anybody would do that butit's more of a sovereign system
where you're running, you'rebeing hosted by your fans.

Sam Sethi (01:28:21):
So I'm still a little confused.
So if the nodes have got a copyof my file, once they have a
copy of that file, then the hostisn't serving it.
It's coming from the nodes.
So is the issue that theoriginal file has to be uploaded
somewhere to begin with?
Is that the problem?

Cameron (01:28:40):
Yes, before it gets on IPFS.
As far as the IPFS podcastingsystem, it's got to be somewhere
for the nodes to download it,so you've got to put it on your
own host somewhere.

Sam Sethi (01:28:53):
Yeah, could you not build a upload capability
directly?
So I'm not trying to put thehost out of business, that's not
my job.
But for example, when we useBuzzsprout, who are our sponsors
and great people, we put itstraight to Buzzsprout and then

(01:29:13):
we manipulate it from there andthen they send it out to the
directories.
Is a capability to just uploadthat same file directly to you
on the IPFS network?

Cameron (01:29:27):
It could be, but you wouldn't be uploading it to me,
you would be uploading it as anode.
You'd have to run your own nodeto get it on the network.
And then there's the issue withother nodes connecting to you
to get that file.
So if your node isn't very goodor they'll have a problem

(01:29:48):
downloading that file from youto get it going, the more nodes
you have, the better theperformance.
So if you see shows on actuallyon IPFS, podcasts and net, you
can look at episodes or shows.
They might only have one or twonodes and they're really slow
on the playback.
They might not play at allbecause those nodes might have
disappeared at the time for amoment or they might be real and

(01:30:08):
bad ISP connection.
So I don't know.
That's the benefit of, I guess,having a host as your back,
your backbone, your back end, todraw from Until you get enough
nodes posting your content.

Sam Sethi (01:30:25):
I mean, it just sounds like we're in very, very
early days, then, which is great.
I mean, it's just a proof ofconcept, more than it is a rock
solid.
Here's where you can just relyon this.
Going back to the commercialissue, it's not ready for Rogan,
right?
Right, it's an example.
So, given that, what is thenext evolution then?

(01:30:47):
Is it just simply more nodesmake the network better?
Is it more features on thefront end that you have to build
?
What's next?

Cameron (01:30:55):
Yeah, more nodes helps a lot.
Like you said, we're stillbuilding and still in beta kind
of.
So there's a lot of work I haveto do on the back end for the
selection algorithm, because I'mkeeping track of all the nodes,
who has the file when a newshow comes out, who should get
it.
So that is still being workedon.
I'm constantly trying to handfudge things to fix them, so I

(01:31:19):
got to fix that code.
Yeah, future stuff I think thebig thing would be to get run
IPFS podcasting gateways so youcan get off of the official IPFS
IOL gateway and share thebandwidth among the IPFS
gateways.
Right now we're sharing thestorage among all the nodes and

(01:31:40):
some of the bandwidth, but whenthe player plays a file, they're
grabbing it from an HTTPgateway because players can't
talk IPFS right now.
An IPFS native player would bevery helpful, but I don't know
if I'm capable of putting out aplayer that can do IPFS.
There's hope that the playerpeople would work on that.

Sam Sethi (01:32:01):
Maybe they will, you never know.
Look, cameron, thank you somuch for this first step.
I think it's exciting.
I think I know James with thePod News Daily is running it the
moment.
It looks like actually thosepodcasts that are self-hosted,
like Adam and James, would getthe benefit of the IPFS network
for delivery and the bandwidthcosts.

(01:32:23):
I think if you're alreadyhosted and you're not
self-hosted, then I think rightnow it's an interesting thing to
play with more than it is aI'll get rid of one cost for
another.
You're actually just supportingyou more than you are actually
trying to remove or eliminatethe original hosting cost.

(01:32:44):
But that's fine.
I think people will understandthat.

Cameron (01:32:47):
Right.
I think if the hostingcompanies wanted to get into it,
they could also reduce theirhosting costs.
They had help from fans andlisteners and people running
nodes.
They wouldn't have to host somuch.

Sam Sethi (01:33:05):
Yeah, that could be, and they could be the gateways
as well, eventually, Right, theycould share the load with the
other hosts.
That would be an interestingoption, cameron, thank you so
much.
Look, we're holding thisnetwork together.
I'm not going to risk it muchfurther.
Cameron, thanks so much.
Where can remind people wherethey can go to find out more

(01:33:28):
about how to get involved?

Cameron (01:33:30):
Pretty much ipfspodcastingnet.
If you go right to thathomepage, you can either submit
your feed if you're a podcasterand want to test it out, or if
you want to run a node.
There's a link to run a nodeand they give you instructions
how to set up a computer to dothat.

Cameron, a man in the woods somewhere talking
about IPFS.
Of course, adam Curry very keenabout IPFS and you can learn
more in the extended version ofthe interview that we had a
couple of weeks ago with Adam.
You'll find that in the PodNews Extra podcast available

(01:34:04):
wherever you got this one.

Sam Sethi (01:34:06):
So, James, why don't we go around the world and have
a look at what's happening?

Yes, that's a good idea.
So outside Amazon's offices inNew York last week, the fiction
podcasters, the WGA AudioAlliance, highlighted their
efforts to unionise.
Basically, they want Amazon toenter into negotiations with
podcast writers.
Some podcast companies, ofcourse, have done this and some
haven't yet, and so that'sworthwhile keeping an eye on.

(01:34:33):
In the UK, the Audio ProductionAwards has announced a Pay.
What you Can scheme it'ssponsored by Amazon Music and
Wonder is kind of a little bitlike Value for Value, isn't it?
I suppose it is yes.

Sam Sethi (01:34:46):
They call it Pay what you Can.
We call it Value for Value.

And in Australia , podcasts spend up by 64% year
on year.
According to ARN's I HeartRadio Australia and Magellan AI,
the top three advertisers wereHealth Insurance Company NIB,
macas or McDonald's, as youprobably know it, and Amazon

(01:35:09):
Stuff going on around the worldand it's always good to have a
peak at other countries otherthan America, always helpful In
terms of job news.
There's a job going at LemonadaMedia for Vice President of
Sales and Partnerships.
If you want to go and get that,podnewsnet slash jobs is where

(01:35:30):
to find that.
Acast has also announced anumber of new appointments in
the US.
Lots of names and folk joiningthem, including Ricardo Netto
from Spotify, greg Glenday,who's joining from Lightbox, and
a very interesting one, stevenSmick, who has joined ACAST's US

(01:35:50):
Advisory Board.
He had been at Veritone Onesince the acquisition of
Performance Bridge where he wasCEO.
So there's some really bignames that ACAST have made over
there, and I think it'sinteresting that Greg Glenday is
Chief Business Officer forACAST globally and will be based
in New York, so worthwhilekeeping an eye on that.

(01:36:13):
And ACAST, of course, makingother announcements as well over
the last 24 hours, includingthe one that it will no longer
accept new campaigns that useSpotify's ad analytics.
They basically turned aroundand said no, we're only going to
work with people that share ourview about an open and

(01:36:34):
transparent environment, which Ithought was an interesting move
.

Sam Sethi (01:36:40):
Well, you'd be glad to know.
We'll be talking to Glenday ina couple of weeks time.

Well, that's an excellent thing If you're
looking for a job.
Podnews is podcasting jobsacross the industry and across
the world on podcasting'slargest jobs board.
They're free to post as well.
Just takes two minutes.
Podnewsnet slash jobs.

(01:36:56):
The tech stuff.
Tech stuff On the Pod NewsWeekly Review.

Yes, it's the stuff you'll find every Monday
in the Pod News newsletter.
Here's where we do all of thetech talk.
What have you spotted over thelast week or so, Sam?

Sam Sethi (01:37:09):
Well, there's a lot of me toos coming out.
We've got a podstache.
There's a new ARI website thatlets you turn any link into a
short podcast using chatGBT, andwe've got podshorty.
We'll turn any YouTube videointo an AI summarized podcast.
Joining many and many othersdoing very similar audio

(01:37:30):
summaries using AI.
Yes, there's a lot of them outthere.

Yes, there's a ton of that, some ad tech news
out there as well Blueberryunveiling an update simplifying
mid-roll ad insertion forpodcasters, so you can stick an
ad in the middle of your show inthe right place and that'll
work quite nicely.
Red Circle as well, sharingtheir host red scripts
management tool stuff whichenables much easier purchases of

(01:37:59):
host red scripts and stuff likethat.
But what they've also announcedis that in the first half of
the year its host red adplatform revenue more than
doubled, which is really goodnews.
But even better news, I suspect, for them is that quarter two
was a profitable quarter for thecompany and they plan to invest

(01:38:21):
further in their platform lateron in the year.
Red Circle will be hidden awayat the podcast movement thing as
well Booth 604, in case youwant to go and see them not too
far away from the pod news booth.

(01:38:41):
So worthwhile taking a peek atthem too.
Podcast events on the Pod NewsWeekly Review.
Yes, well, events.
Obviously lots of excitementabout podcast movement 2023.
I may have an exclusive for you, sam, about something that's
happening at podcast movement2023.

Sam Sethi (01:39:04):
Oh, oh yes, do tell, or are you going to hold us in
suspense for a few more minutes?

No, I will tell you right now.
So I mentioned a little bitearlier on that Pod News will
have a stand there, stand 801,if you want to come and see us
Opposite the Descript stand.
Well, we're not quite oppositethe Descript stand.
We're opposite the Puppies.
We're opposite Sam, the PodNews Puppies.
I can exclusively reveal thatPod News is sponsoring the

(01:39:33):
Puppies.
They are puppies from a properpuppy rehabilitation place.
It's all above board.
It's all good news.
But the Pod News Puppies willbe there at podcast movements.
So if you fancy some strokesand some tickling under the

(01:39:58):
tummy and all of that, Leave.

Sam Sethi (01:39:59):
James alone.
You're not allowed to strokehim.
He doesn't like it.

Do not stroke, james, and I believe that the
puppies are there in theafternoons and you can come and
see if I'm actually at the stand, which I may be or I may not be
.
I've still got to buy thingslike some Australian candy for
the stand and various otherthings, and so that's going to

(01:40:28):
be fun.
Come and see the Pod NewsTablecloth, because apparently
we're getting a bespoketablecloth.
Who knew Other things going onat podcast movement, which I'm
actually quite pleased about,even though it starts with bad
news.
Kai Chuck from YouTube is nolonger answering questions at
podcast movement, which he wasdown to do.

(01:40:49):
I was quite excited by that.
Sorry, can?

Sam Sethi (01:40:52):
I just point out, James, he's never answered any
questions yet so far.
So what's changed?

Why start now?
Actually, I'm delighted aboutthat Because he was said to be a
speaker and of course he didn'tsay an awful lot at podcast
movement evolutions a couple ofyears ago.
The good news is that his placeis being taken by the product
lead of podcasting at Google,steve MacLendon.

(01:41:18):
Now Steve knows all about theYouTube stuff because he was
involved in the launch ofpodcasts on YouTube, so he will
easily answer all of thosequestions.
But he was a former co-founderof 60DB, which was purchased by
Google a long, long time ago,and he also looks after Google
podcasts.
So if there's the right personto get to talk from all of

(01:41:41):
Google about what they're doingin the podcasting space, then
Steve MacLendon is your man.
So very much looking forward tothat.
Of course, he's been put on inone of the smaller rooms, aurora
Sea, but Wednesday 2.30 in theafternoon If I can squeeze in
there then I'm looking forwardto ending up doing that.
The session is sponsored byOSHA as well, so that should be

(01:42:04):
good.
You won't be at podcastmovement, will you?
Sam?
You have a feeble excuse.

Sam Sethi (01:42:11):
Yeah, I have a feeble excuse.
I've got a lunch date.

That's it, is it ?

Sam Sethi (01:42:17):
Okay, who is?
I'm going for lunch with Tomand Jason over at the podcast
show, so yeah, so I won't be inpodcast movement, but yes.

Jay Le Boeuf (01:42:28):
Now.

Sam Sethi (01:42:28):
I genuinely got my dates wrong.
We were in Greece last week.
I thought we were going to bein Greece next week.
So there you go and I didn'tbook anything.
That's the real reason.

Well, there you go.
Other events going on the Afrosand Audio Podcast Festival,
which is October the 21st inBaltimore, and also online.
And friend of the show, rebeccaSananez is hosting a month-long
weekly online workshop andnetwork to develop and grow your
podcasting craft and career.

(01:42:59):
You can go and register forthat now.
You'll find a link in the shownotes, probably, if I remember
to put it in, it startsSeptember the 12th and if
there's one person that knowsher onions, it's Rebecca Sananez
.
Is that a phrase?
It is now.

Sam Sethi (01:43:16):
I don't think so.

Yeah, I think we'll find out.
And Pod News Live, which ishappening in London on the 27th
of September.
I've had a number of emailsthis week saying where is it and
what is your recommendedairport.
That's always a good start, somy recommended airport for
London is Heathrow, Although,frankly, you'll be coming into

(01:43:38):
Heathrow unless you're a realcheapskate.
So therefore it's a good thing.
But where are we, Sam?
Where is Pod News Live going tobe?
It's at your old Haunt James.

Sam Sethi (01:43:50):
It's at the old BBC Media Centre in White City.
So it's at Soho House in WhiteCity, which is a lovely, lovely
venue.
I've done an event there before.
So if you're really bored witheverything we're saying, you can
go around the corner to theWestgate.
There's a big shopping centrethere.

Yes, westfield, yes, yes, because of course, as
we all know, westfield is thebest field.
So, yes, so that'll beworthwhile doing.
It's actually in the oldtelevision centre, which is
where this morning comes from.
So if you're really lucky,you'll catch a glimpse of Holly
Willoughby, but you won't catcha glimpse of Phillips Gofield
anymore.

Sam Sethi (01:44:25):
No.

Oh dear.
The day after, of course,september 28th, is the British
podcast awards as well, whichI'm looking forward to, and you
know I've heard a bunch of coolpeople who are coming to Pod
News Live, which is veryexciting, so he'll be hidden
away in the audience.
Chris from Hindenburg said thathe might be coming and he said

(01:44:48):
you know, the flight that I willbe catching leaves again at
eight o'clock in the evening,unless you're going to a pub, in
which case I'll stay the nightand I've said we're going to a
pub.
I've got no idea where the pubis, but nevertheless we're going
to the pub.
So, yes, so that's what we'redoing.
It'll be good to to end upseeing him as well.

(01:45:10):
And there are more events, bothpaid for and free, at Pod News,
of course virtual events orevents in a place with people.
If you're organizing something,tell the world about it.
It's free to be listed.
Podnewsnet slash events.
Boostergram, boostergram,corner, corner, corner On the
Pod.
News Weekly Review.
Oh, it's our favorite time ofthe week, sam, and it's a

(01:45:31):
Boostergram corner, and we'vegot the stars listening now,
haven't we?
We've got this person, but I'lltear yourself for the less you
made, but I'll leave it out,your honor, it's tear your soul.
Oh yes, it's Ainsley Costellowith the Wave Lake Number One.
Is she still Wave Lake NumberOne?
I'm sure that she probably is.

Sam Sethi (01:45:50):
She is yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's storming it
out there.
I don't think we're going toshift her.
Actually, personally now Ithink yeah, no.
Actually I have to be honestand say the track's actually
very good, irrelevant of whatall the publicity she's had for
free, and the track is reallygood as well.
I've listened to a couple ofher other tracks, so she's
actually very good a singer.

Yes, it's a bit of an earworm.
It's going round and round andround in my head and I'm trying
not to listen to it, and then,of course, I have to play
another little clip of it.
Hey, just to remind us aboutwhat it was.
She sent in something to Kyren,my co-host last week, saying
thank you, just thought I'dupdate Yoll.
She's American Yoll.
It's well over $400 now thatshe's earned.

(01:46:31):
Thank you so much, she says, toeverybody for supporting me.
I've always been reluctant toput my stuff behind a paywall.
I think my experience this weekwith Wave Lake and Adam Curry
has proven why, or how,lightning changes the game for
all creators.
Thanks, kyren.
So yeah, that was super good.

Sam Sethi (01:46:49):
Yeah, talking of Kyren, he asked me on James was
such a blast.
Look forward to Sam's return.
You have great chemistrytogether.
Yeah, we've only met twice,that's great.
Twice, three times yeah, we areso close.

Yeah, we've met three times.
It'll be the fourth time inLondon, I think.

Sam Sethi (01:47:11):
So, yes, yes, yes, yes, he's tall, and the funny
thing is, James is so muchtaller than you think.
That's the thing.
That was the thing.
Conversely, James is probablygoing.
He's so much shorter than Ithought.

Says little Sam.
Neil McFaerd, long timelistener.
He says first time caller,actually he says over due for
the beers in Vegas.
Keep up the great work, guys.
Yes, this was Neil from Podium,who became a pod news supporter
this week, who was there at thebeers in Vegas in the Brew Dog

(01:47:46):
there, and he's given us atremendous amount 150,000 sats.
He earns one of these.
Oh, yes, so, neil, thank you somuch.
I gather that Neil will be atpodcast movement, so I will see
him again and looking forward,obviously, to all three of us to
be in the same room at somepoint.

Sam Sethi (01:48:07):
And also we had the real coach, andy.
He said good to hear you guysagain.
Thanks for the news, guys, andhe sent us 100 sats.
Thank you so much.

Yes, and he may be real coach Andy or real Coke
handy, who knows?
Ah, yes, but if you get valuefrom what we do the Pod News
Weekly Review is separate fromPod News Sam and I share
everything from it.
We really appreciate yoursupport so we can continue
making this show.
You can become a powersupporter with your actual money

(01:48:36):
pounds, dollars, shillings,pence, weeklypodnewsnet or you
can support us with sats byhitting the boost button in your
podcast app.
If you don't have one,podnewsnet slash new podcast
apps will help you find a newapp.
Now, what's happened for youthis week, sam?

Sam Sethi (01:48:54):
Well, after you reported on in Canada somebody
getting a tattoo, I thought Ishould really show my support
for this show.
So I've gone and got a tattoofor Pod News while I was in
Greece.

Ha, ha, ha, ha ha.

Sam Sethi (01:49:07):
Oh, I hate to ask where it is no, no, it never to
be revealed, does it actually?

say pod, and then only later you can actually
see the rest of the.

Sam Sethi (01:49:22):
All I'll say is the O's missing.
That's all you need to know.

Ha ha ha.
That's even worse.
That's even worse.
You have this too.

Sam Sethi (01:49:33):
No, no, as I say to my children when you've got a
Bentley, why would you stick acar sticker on it?
There you go.

Oh dear, what else has gone on for you then?

Sam Sethi (01:49:42):
Well, actually very, very kindly.
I'm looking forward to this.
I'm going for lunch with Jasonand Tom from the podcast show
the Big Event in London.
It's more to do, actually,genuinely with feedback that we
got when we were at the showfrom Ian Forrester saying he
wanted a more technical threadgoing through the show, and
Jason and Tom and I are going tobe sitting down looking at that

(01:50:04):
and seeing what we can puttogether for next year's show.

Yeah, yeah.
Well, I had a good catch upwith Jason and Tom a couple of
days ago, earlier on in the week, and it's really nice actually
hearing from a company that isreally keen to get feedback and
to get information to learn howthey can become better for next
year.

(01:50:27):
So that was super good, so verymuch enjoyed chatting with them
.
They didn't buy me lunch,though, I will point out, so
Very hard over a Skype call or avideo call Skype.

Sam Sethi (01:50:42):
Well, yes, indeed, I didn't even mention.

Skype Skype grandad.

Sam Sethi (01:50:46):
Yes, I don't, yes, I know God, yeah, wow, where did
that come from?
And then the last thing was mydaughter got her place at Bath
University, so I'm very chuffedfor that.

Excellent, Excellent.
Well, that's a lovely thing.
It's a wonderful place.
His bath, it seems a very niceplace to be.
What with your old Romanbuildings and everything else,
it seems a very nice place.
So that's a good thing.
James, come on.
What's happened for you?

Sam Sethi (01:51:14):
while I was away.

Well, this morning, this morning I was
invited to an event all about AIand there's nothing that makes
you feel more valued as ajournalist than being
deliberately lied to about theopening time so that you turn up
after the speaker that didn'twant a member of the press there
.
So you turn out halfway throughand you go, oh shit, I'm late,

(01:51:38):
why am I late?
And then they say, oh, yes, yes, the bloke from Microsoft, he
didn't want any press there andyou know, in case, microsoft got
negative press Microsoft.
So so yeah.
But the person who I did go tosee from Adobe was really
interesting, talking aboutgenerative AI, talking about how

(01:52:01):
Adobe is using AI for video andfor pictures and for all kinds
of stuff some really amazingthings that Adobe is doing in
the picture world.
I did ask when they're going tobe making any announcements
around podcasting and the answeris possibly around IBC, which
is September, a big trade showin September in Amsterdam.

(01:52:26):
I think it's September is whenit normally is.
So yeah, so that should beinteresting to find out,
although probably they'll behaving a look at these scripts
and going, oh wow, gosh, whatare we going to do there?
And the other thing I've beendoing is packing, because,
obviously, heading off to sunnyDenver on Saturday, I'm doing

(01:52:48):
the two hour flight fromBrisbane to Sydney, then the 15
hour 45 minute flight to Dallasand then the two hour flight
from Dallas to Denver.
So imagine how fragrant I'mgoing to be when I get into
Denver on Saturday evening, butstill.
But there we are.
But Sunday I'm seeing a friendof mine who lives in Denver

(01:53:11):
these days and I'm going to goshooting what's he giving you?

Sam Sethi (01:53:15):
A big SLR or you know a little nine millimetre
browning.
What's he giving you James?

Well, we're going to a shooting range.
And I think they look as if theylook as if they're proper
rifles.
So, yes, so we don't.
We don't want any of that, butthat should be.
That's the proper Americanthing, isn't it?
Go to America and shoot a gun,yes, so that's what I'm going to
be doing on Sunday and quitelooking forward to to a little

(01:53:43):
bit of that, but, yeah, verymuch looking forward to next
week at podcast movement.
I think it's going to beanother one of those very long
weeks, but I've got some goodfolk already booked into the
diary who I'm seeing and talkingto.
So if you do see me around, youmay or may not see me on the on

(01:54:04):
the stand Quite a lot of thetime.
You'll just see a little noticeon the stand because I won't be
there, but it'll be good to endup seeing you and come and see
the pod news puppies.
That's all I can say.
And remember, do not strokeJames.

Sam Sethi (01:54:18):
Do not stroke James.

Yes, yes, especially stroke, James Strokes
on the tummy.
I don't want any of that,although snacks snacks are
absolutely fine.
They can give me some snacks,those are absolutely fine.
Next week, on this very show,it's going to be a little bit of
a different sounding showbecause we will be coming from
the exhibitor Hall, we will bethis show and the new media show

(01:54:43):
will be joining forces, as Ibelieve the phrase that we have
to say joining forces next week.
So we'll come out slightlylater next week from the, from
the exhibitor hall.
You'll be able to hear lots ofpeople around us drinking beer
and Todd and Rob and otherguests and me.

(01:55:03):
That's right, todd, we'll betalking using Nemono.
You know those, thosefearsomely expensive Nemono.
You know the little cordlessmicrophone, so we'll be using
those.
So if you don't understand aword of next week's show, that's
why.
But looking forward to that.

(01:55:25):
And then a normal show thefollowing week, including an
interview with Nathan Gaithrightfrom Transcribe FM, which I'm
looking forward to hearing fromhim.
And that's it for this week.

Sam Sethi (01:55:39):
You can give feedback to James Rye by using email to
weekly at podnewsnet or send usa boostergram.
Or, if your podcast doesn'tsupport boosting, grab a new one
from podnewsnet.
Forward slash new podcast apps.

And one of those , of course, is podfans, which
you should be on podfansfm.
Our music is from StudioDragonfly, our voiceover is
Sheila Dee, and we're hosted andsponsored by Pod News Live and
Buzzsprout podcast hosting madeeasy Get updated every day.
Subscribe to our newsletter atpodnewsnet.

Jay Le Boeuf (01:56:14):
Tell your friends and grow the show and support
us, and support us.
The Pod News Weekly Review willreturn next week.
Keep listening.

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