March 11, 2022 • 42 mins
Leo Shane of Military Times discusses the community of reporting on the US Department of Veterans Affairs, the potential for medical center closures, and politics surrounding veterans issues.
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Leo Shane (00:01):
I know there will be VA is closed. We haven't as of
this taping, we don't have thenames yet, but they have talked
about building a few more VAmedical centers and closing four
or five, maybe even a few morewhat they're talking about
replacing these, these VAmedical centers with our
outpatient clinics arepartnerships with other local
(00:21):
clinics. So if you say we'regoing to close down to the
hospital, that's going to paniceverybody, if you say we're
going to build three moreoutpatient clinics all around
town, and it's going to beeasier for everybody to get
there. That's that's great forveterans.
Charlie Malone (00:36):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast, engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theexecutive director of policy.
That's Louis Celli. Today'sguest Leo Shane, an award
(00:56):
winning national reporterfocused on military and veterans
issues for Military Times.
Louis Celli (01:05):
So Mr. Secretary, big, big week for the Department
of Veterans Affairs, a lot ofannouncements. You know, we're
starting to come out of thepandemic. And it looks like
people are starting to wake upagain.
Dr. David Shulkin (01:17):
Yeah, and not not too soon with this beginning
of theirs commission process, Iwas really worried about VA not
having its appointees in place.
And that's going to be reallyimportant that the VA and
veterans be represented bypeople who know what they're
doing. So that this isn't acomplete political process, that
this really is one that makessense for veterans,
Louis Celli (01:42):
it really is refreshing a lot of the names
that came out on the nomineelists or names that that we're
familiar with in the community.
And that does give us a sense ofcomfort, to know that there are
folks that at least have workedin the community that are now
being tapped. But listen, morespecifically, the the
undersecretary for health, Imean, a position that that
hasn't been filled in quite along time as you as you well
know.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:04):
Yeah. And, you know, it's great to see that
the nominee is a person that Ihave such confidence in, he was
my White House fellow, which,which meant that he and I spent
every day together, you know,the way which I work with my
White House Fellows, my calendarwas theirs, they would get sit
(02:25):
in on all my meetings, and Igave them projects and really
tested the mountain. In fact, hewas such a good fellow that
after his year was over, hestayed at VA took on a position
and that really showed hiscommitment, it really showed my
confidence. And in doing that,and then he's since left VA to
(02:47):
go out and get great experienceas the Commissioner of Health of
the state of New Jersey, and nowcurrently the CEO of the
University Hospital in Newark,New Jersey, which is a large,
important underserved healthsystem that serves people
throughout Northern New Jersey,and to see that that experience
(03:08):
will all be accrued to thebenefit of VA and VA and
veterans I think is reallyterrific.
Louis Celli (03:15):
Well in and the nominee for the Under Secretary
of benefits Ray Jeffers. Great,I think that's a great pic great
nominees, oh, he's a wonderfulguy, and he's taking over a shop
that's fairly healthy. You know,Murphy has really, really held
things together quite well forhim. So it looks like veterans
are in pretty good shape now.
Dr. David Shulkin (03:35):
Yeah, I think so that doesn't mean that there
aren't significant challengesahead. And that the, you know,
wheels aren't squeaking a littlebit, just from from not having
leadership in place for sometime. And so I think that this
is, as you said, an opportunityto really get the
(03:55):
administration's agenda intogear. And, and to make sure that
not only no harm is done withwith, you know, the new
initiatives going on, but thatthere is a vision that's
implemented, and we can reallymake progress.
Louis Celli (04:13):
Well, I think this is an exciting podcast, I'm
really excited about thisepisode, because we we get to
take a look back at where, wherethe Department of Veterans
Affairs has been, where they'vecome from, you know, just over
the past 10 years, the the, thebudget has essentially doubled
$268 billion. And that's a lotof money. Right? So it's got to
(04:34):
be managed, and are we beinggood stewards of the people's
money? So, you know, as as welook at that, you know, we're
looking at folks that have beenin this community for a while
and who can walk through thiswith us? And I think Leo Shane
is probably really just one ofthe best people to do
Dr. David Shulkin (04:52):
that with.
Yeah, well, you know, I'vealways taken the position that
the problems of VA were neverdue to lack of money, and I
think it's easy in Washington tosay, if there's a problem, throw
money at it, I think that thishas always been an issue of
getting the getting thestructure, the vision, the the
focus of the organization in theright direction and making it
(05:13):
clear where this organization'sgoing. And quite frankly,
political turnover, VA, youknow, every two years changing
leadership, no organizationstays with a consistency and,
and, and is able to implementthat agenda in such a large
place with that constantturnover. So I'm hoping that, as
(05:34):
we talked about, we're nowseeing the team being put in
place and giving them the chanceto do their job. But Leo Shane,
who we're going to hear fromreal soon, I think is one of
those people who has the reallygood ability to understand these
issues, because of his length oftime covering these issues. He
(05:58):
is not afraid to tell you likeit is he is a fair guy, whether
you like his questions or not,are usually not coming with a
specific gotcha agenda. So Ithink that he is in a unique
position in Washington to beable to comment on this very
special time that we'rewatching.
Louis Celli (06:20):
Now, I think you're right, Leo is very well
respected in the industry. I'vebeen interviewed by him, you
know, a great number of times.
And there was one occasion whenI was I was young, in, in my
position over at the AmericanLegion. I've only been there for
a couple of months. And I wasalways studying an issue. And he
wanted to interview me on it.
And I was I was giving him thebest answer that, you know, that
(06:42):
I possibly could give him and hehad to stop and correct me. He's
like, Well, no, actually, thelaw says this. And I knew right
then in there, that, you know,if I was ever to speak to a
reporter, especially Leo, Shane,I better have my facts together
because he knows him. If not aswell, sometimes better than the
person he's interviewing does.
Dr. David Shulkin (06:58):
Yeah. And it will be fun to turn the tables,
napkins questions.
Louis Celli (07:03):
That's exactly right. I I think he's looking
forward to it as well. And he'ssuch a great sport, too.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:09):
Yeah. So why don't we get him in here? I
can't wait.
Louis Celli (07:21):
Leo, welcome to the policy. That's podcast. It is
really great to have you herewith us.
Leo Shane (07:25):
Thank you for the invite. You've been you've been
trying to get me on here for alittle while. And I've always
got some breaking news that I'mdealing with. So I appreciate
appreciate your patience.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:34):
But Leo, we're glad to have you on today.
And I think before we getstarted, you know, we've all
known each other for a while.
But why don't you tell ourlisteners how you started
focusing on veterans in thefirst place?
Leo Shane (07:48):
Yeah, I sort of I kind of wandered backwards into
it. Actually, I wish I had likethis inspiring story that I
always wanted to cover themilitary veterans but I, I moved
to a move to DC I had a politicscareer was looking for just
another reporting job andstarted to work at Stars and
Stripes, you know, convincedthem that they had never had a
(08:09):
congressional reporter before itconvinced them that I could do
that. Since they didn't havecongressional Reporter They
didn't know that. I didn't knowwhat I was doing yet. But I
learned on the job as much as Icould. And it fascinated me
covering the military community,how much people focused on the
active duty military and not theveteran side. So as I got to do
more of those stories, as I gotjust more welcomed in by the
(08:30):
veterans community, it became anatural segue to focus on those
stories focus on the stories ofthe folks after they came back
and, and really just just honein on those issues.
Louis Celli (08:40):
Well, and to be fair, I mean, you've been you've
been recognized pretty much asan expert in this area. I mean,
other news agencies and andoutlets invite you on to tell
them about veterans issues is isa kind of weird, you know,
helping them with their newsstories. When when you're
reporting yourself. It's
Leo Shane (08:59):
It's terrifying.
Whenever anybody says thatyou're an expert on this, I'm
like, There must there must besomebody who knows more. I know
there are people who know morethan me so not like it's it's
it's a it's a blessing in thesense that I think that it's
tough for a lot of newsorganizations to cover veterans
issues. I think that they don'talways think about it until
there's some terrible breakingnews until there's some issue,
(09:20):
you know, burn pits is now thebig issue. I don't think I heard
from several news organizationswho said they didn't know
anything about this issue. Theyhaven't been covering it. So to
be able to share what I'velearned from the community be
able to share what I've writtenon it's great to feel that that
thing Yeah, it's it's weird. I'mused to being on this side. I'm
(09:40):
used to being on the side whereI'm asking the questions and,
and you know, I get to poke youand ask what's going on. So
it's, it's odd to be on theother side, but it's also I feel
like I've got a comfort level tosay I'm just relaying what you
would what you would hear if youcovered the veterans community
better.
Dr. David Shulkin (09:59):
Well leave Sometimes I think that you fill
a really needed void, becausethe department itself always
doesn't make itself available tocomment on these issues. They
sort of aren't out therefilling, you know, speaking on
these topics, they they are muchquieter in some cases. And
you've been following theDepartment of Veteran Affairs
(10:22):
and veterans issues for so long.
Do you see major changes in theway that the political
appointees make themselvesavailable to the media in
different administrations? Orhave you worked with different
secretaries or or press officersthat are much easier to work
with than others? Does it changea lot? Or is it been pretty
(10:44):
consistent?
Leo Shane (10:46):
So this is this is where I would turn it back
around and get you on these onsome of these questions. If we
were in a different, different?
Look, I think it changes from itchanges from Secretary to
Secretary. So I felt that thatyou were very open personally,
during during youradministration there. I know
there were constraints with theWhite House, after you left, we
had almost no communication withwith senior leadership over at
(11:11):
VA and that has turned arounddramatically under this
administration, we do have amuch more, much more open, we're
having monthly pressconferences, there's a lot more
communication. Is it always 100%truthful? Is it always
everything I want? No, there'salways a push and pull. But but
there is a there is a feel as wego along. You know, even even
Secretary Shinseki, you know,back when in the beginning of
(11:35):
the Obama ministration. He wassomeone who I respected greatly,
but was not media savvy all thetime was someone who was very
reluctant to engage with themedia. So you know, there's
there's this continual change.
And that's that I think that'salways been the Achilles heel of
the Department of VeteransAffairs, there are great
stories, there are importantstories, this is a this is a
(11:58):
agency that has a very bigbudget that takes care of
millions of veterans thatprovides a critical backbone of
support for veterans, whether ornot the department wants to, it
needs to be talking about this,not just to me, not just the
veterans community, but to theAmerican public, the public
needs to know what veterans howveterans are being taken care
of, and when they're not andwhat else their needs are. So.
(12:19):
So it's it's something that canalways be improved. I have seen
under this administration, somereally big steps forward. And I
hope that this is just the startof that.
Dr. David Shulkin (12:28):
Leo, I think that's really good to hear that
you're getting that type ofopenness right now in this
administration, because I dothink that's important. And I
think you made some really goodpoints that it probably does
depend upon how comfortable theSecretary or other political
appointees are in terms of theirown ability to speak to the
(12:50):
media, but you know, regardless,but I always felt as secretary,
that I had an obligation that ifI took a job that represented my
fellow, you know, Americans andand I was doing this with
taxpayer dollars, that whether Iwanted to or not that I had an
obligation to make myselfavailable to the media to ask
(13:12):
questions that needed to beanswered.
Leo Shane (13:14):
And it's, it's a, it's a philosophical approach to
it. I mean, I always I always,we had plenty of times that we
sparred on things, but I alwaysfelt like you were available.
And you were not reluctant totalk to the media. It was
exactly how John McCain operatedon Capitol Hill, John McCain,
there were plenty of times hewould come over. And he would
curse out reporters because hedidn't like what they were
asking. But he always made sureto come over because he said
(13:35):
part of my job is communicatingto the public. There's there's a
trend with, with conservativesnow and even some some members
Democratic Party that I cancommunicate with voters, I can
communicate with the public onmy own, I don't need the media,
I don't need to answer. And, youknow, as a reporter, that's
disheartening. Because my goalis not to tear someone down. My
goal is not to, you know, pushan agenda. My goal is to inform
(13:59):
the public. And I know we have alot of veterans and military
members who are reading us whojust want to know what's going
on. So. So even if you're notgiving me an answer that I like,
all the time, I just I care thatyou're giving me an answer.
Louis Celli (14:12):
You know, you've brought up some things about
the, you know, about theenvironment, about the the
political environment, about thepersonnel, and we're going to
talk about that a little bitlater. And one of the things I'd
like to like to get yourperspective on is because you've
been doing this a while, whatare some of the biggest changes
you've seen over the VA and inthis, you know, in this
community over the past, say 10years?
Leo Shane (14:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's people
caring. I think like, I rememberwhen I started covering these
issues I had, I had folks fromthe Veteran Service Organization
saying no one will no one willtalk about us. No one will talk
about our issues. And especiallywhen I started at Stars and
Stripes, this was back in youknow, 405 it was the height of
(14:52):
the the Iraq War, theAfghanistan wars. Everything was
focused on the the currentoperations and the active duty
stuff. There was very littlethought given to what happens to
these folks when they come home.
Very little thought given to allthe folks who'd already come. I
mean, when people hear how longthe agent orange fight has been
going on, when your averagecivilian hears that they're
astounded that, that that wasn'ttaken care of sometime in the
(15:15):
80s, or even the 90s. That, youknow, as late as the 2000 10s,
we're still dealing with some ofthese health conditions and
learning about it. So. So thereis a there is just a more
cultural awareness. Some of thatis the size of the VA budget VA
budget was $40 billion back in2000. It's $270 billion dollars.
Now. I mean, that's, that's agigantic sum of money. There
(15:37):
should be more reporterstracking that money. It
shouldn't just be me. I'm happyto get all the stories that I
can. But there should be someother folks who are who are
digging in as well.
Dr. David Shulkin (15:47):
Are you saying that you don't have
colleagues and peers thatthere's not, there's not a group
of you who meets togethersecretly for breakfast that
follows all the VA, you knowthat the the lease arrives from
the bank will not
Leo Shane (16:02):
reveal any of the names on our secret VA Chatlin
on this podcast, but there thereis a very healthy VA press
corps. Now, I think I think youknow, you remember from your
time, there's a few regularsthat you saw, but you're really
talking about three or fourfolks whose whose face you saw,
were probably closer to 10 or12. Folks, when you look at the
(16:24):
DOD, there is a cadre of about70 people who are regularly
covering every aspect of thatdepartment. And it's I am not
taking anything away from it.
It's a major department, it is amajor part of America, it needs
to be covered. But so does VAthere's like there are major
papers that that have had peoplepart timing this that people
(16:44):
sort of wandering in and out onon different issues. And
unfortunately, I've seen somegreat colleagues who have done
great VA work just sort of fadeoff because their papers don't
don't support them. So luckily,Military Times, this is a core
audience for us. We you know,they're not going to take me off
the veterans beat but but it's atough sell. Even though every
(17:05):
community in America hasveterans, everybody's got
veterans, everybody should careabout this. It'll be interesting
to see with with this, and maybewe'll get into this. But this
upcoming asset andinfrastructure review, when we
start to see some facilitiesbeing closed down, we start to
see some facilities being built,is that going to have more of a
local community effort, peopleare going to all of a sudden
say, wait, wait, what is? Whatis VA doing? What does it mean
(17:28):
to have a VA hospital in mybackyard? Is that just is that
just another landmark? Or isthat actually reflective of the
number of veterans and thenumber of veterans needs in this
area?
Dr. David Shulkin (17:39):
All right.
Well, you mentioned there'scommission so you know, you
brought it on? Why don't youtell us whether you think that
there really are going to be VAsthat are going to be closed,
Leo Shane (17:51):
I know there will be VAs closed, we haven't as of
this taping, we don't have thenames yet, but they have talked
about building a few more VAmedical centers and closing four
or five, maybe even a few more.
It's it's a it's gonna be aninteresting restructuring. We've
already heard some of theleadership pitch this but look
VA needs to evolve to there areother health clinics out there,
(18:13):
what they're talking aboutreplacing these, these VA
medical centers with ouroutpatient clinics are
partnerships with other localclinics. So if you say we're
going to close down a VAhospital, that's going to panic.
But if you say we're going tobuild three more outpatient
clinics all around town, andit's going to be easier for
everybody to get there. That'sthat's great for veterans. And
(18:35):
that's this gets to the inherentaccess issues of all the
complaints I've heard about VAover the years are not the
quality of care or not the care,the actual sincerity of care
people, the veterans, I talkedto love their VA doctors, they
love going to see them, it's amatter of whether or not they
can get in and if they've got athree hour drive to get there.
So so does does, you know, inplaces like Ohio, and places
(18:58):
like upstate New York, do, theyneed to have these large VA
facilities when there's not thedemand there. And conversely,
then they need to have likeseven VA hospitals in Arizona,
because everybody in the worldis moving down there. And
they've got all these veteransthat need care,
Louis Celli (19:13):
you bring up a really good point about
interview one of the few peoplethat cover this and you're happy
to get all the stories, but youknow, you get caught up in the
emotional rollercoaster of eachissue and report as an advocate
spent a lot of time trying toforecast and predict like, what
the announcements will be aboutand who the nominees will be
whether someone will beresigning or getting fired. And
(19:33):
you know, it's a fast movingtrain, is it is it hard to keep
up with all that?
Leo Shane (19:38):
It's it's a lot and it's, you know, part of part of
the job is figuring out what'sworth highlighting and what's
not. Well, I mean, I tell I tellpeople who aren't reporters all
the time you don't. The part youdon't understand is that why I
don't write certain stories andwhy I can't get to certain
stories, how you prioritizethings. So And from my
(19:59):
perspective, It's a differentpriority than a lot of a lot of
folks perspectives are gettinggetting back to the earlier idea
of VA doing a better job talkingto reporters marketing
themselves. I want to writestories about PTSD pilot
programs and about educationand, you know, job training
programs that are out there.
Those are things that I know theWashington Post can't cover,
because there's just not theconcentration of interest on
(20:21):
that. But but for me, for myaudience, for military veterans,
audience, those are those arehuge things. They want to know
if there's a this this programthat's going to help 15,000
veterans, okay, I understand whythe New York Times can't cover
that. But like, please talk tome about that. Please let me get
that out there. So and as yousaid, there's there's always, at
the heart of all this is is theveterans themselves. So I get I
(20:44):
get emails, several emails a dayof folks, I lost my benefits, my
caregiver benefits are indanger. I have this question
about burn pits. I will tell youthat the the most rewarding
thing I've done in my careerwhen people ask me what's what's
my favorite story was, was backwhen the when the post 911 GI
bill first passed when I was atStars and Stripes, we we just
(21:08):
did a mailbag. We just did amailbag of people sending in
questions, we did our best toanswer all of them. And I felt
like I was helping veterans allover the world, figure out their
education plans for the next 10years, potentially changing
their whole life. And I can't, Ican't point to a single person
and say, I know because you readmy story, you got this career
and your life's better. But Isure hope those folks are out
(21:30):
there because I poured a lot oftime and effort into doing that.
And I, I know, just from theresponse, I got that a lot of
people were appreciative, justbe able to say, thank you. I
just I just needed thesequestions answered at a time
when VA setting up stuff, andit's a hard bureaucracy, and you
could just get down to helpingsome individual folks understand
what was going on.
Dr. David Shulkin (21:52):
So Leo, I have to go back to your
predictions on the errorsCommission and the restructuring
of the system. Because, youknow, you make it sound easy.
You make it sound rational. Itseems like it's in the best
interest of everyone. But you'vebeen covering this long enough
to know that that isn't alwaysthe way the story gets written
(22:15):
in Washington. And so why don'tyou see the IRS commission
really deteriorating into apolitical battleground? You
know, this is typically been theissue that has divided, you
know, Congress on where and whatthe VA should look like and
should be structured. And isthis really simply another
(22:40):
stalking horse to downgrade theVAs capabilities?
Leo Shane (22:44):
Yeah. And that, look, you're right, this is going to
be a massive fight over the nextyear, I guess, I guess my my
perspective on this is I have Ihave covered base closing
rounds, way back in the day.
They were always contentious,they were always a mess. But
they did ultimately go through.
So there is a level of you know,we've seen the commissioners who
(23:05):
are named to the to thecommission. Now, there's a level
of, you know, Carl Blake's onthere, Pat Murphy's on, there's
a bunch of names of folks who Iknow are connected, who I know
are really going to listen tothe veterans community. You
know, without without puttingmyself too far out there, I have
some faith that they'll at leastbe able to put together some
intelligent consensus stepsforward. And if they can really
(23:28):
make a convincing argument as towhy closing a few VA Medical
Centers is beneficial if it'sreplaced by these other things
that so what we know right nowis that a total the number of VA
medical facilities is going toincrease by about 100. So that
means that there will be morepartnerships, more building. So
(23:49):
if they are successful, they'llsell it as we are providing more
care, even if we're seeing someindividual buildings go out. But
you're right. This is for folksin South Dakota, if they closed
down that hotsprings. Va, it'sgoing to be messy, it's going to
be a very angry situation. Andthey're going to need to justify
it. If they code Chillicothe,Ohio and they say that VA is
gone. That's going to be messyfor the entire Ohio delegation,
(24:11):
there's going to be a big fightthere. So you know, of course,
Congress is always rational andcalm and has no emotional
outbursts. So I can't imagineCongress will, will take apart
like, it's, it's politics, andit comes down to politics to
come down to how well they howwell they pitch some of this,
(24:32):
but there's going to becommunities that are hurt by
this. The question is, in theaggregate, is it going to be
better for veterans as a whole?
Dr. David Shulkin (24:40):
Well, you know, Leo, I love this where I
get to ask you questions insteadof the other way around.
Leo Shane (24:45):
Very uncomfortable.
Dr. David Shulkin (24:46):
Yeah, but it's so much easier, I'll tell
you. But listen, you say thatthe commissioners have been
named to the heirs commission.
That's not exactly true. TheDemocratic commissioners have
been there The chair of thecommission has been named but
the Republicans,
Leo Shane (25:04):
that one Republican has been named, the Republicans
still are waiting on the otherone. And that is that is a bad
sign that is a sign that this isalready becoming politicized.
We're supposed to have that namea year ago, almost a year ago.
Right? You have to wonder if,and I have heard, you know, the
groups involved. I've heard fromquite a few groups who are
already saying, the Democratshave ruined the purpose of this,
(25:27):
the purpose of this was to trimdown VA, the purpose of this was
to push more care into thecommunity and McDonogh is not
doing that McDonald instead isbuilding up VA, and this is all
going to be a disaster. So youknow, look, the Congress is
probably going to switch handsin the fall. So this is probably
going to be a decision to bemade to be made by a Republican
(25:48):
controlled Congress around thistime next year, whether or not
to accept these recommendations.
And that could be a real big hotpotato. I do wonder if even even
with those ideas, if VA isproposed, while while there is
an overarching feeling on theRepublican side that VA needs to
scale down, and it needs to pushmore care into the community. If
(26:10):
VA comes to Kansas and sayswe're building 10 More VA
facilities there is is JerryMoran going to say, No, I won't
support this, or is Jerry Morangonna say? Well, it's really
good for Kansas, I wish youwould do a better job. But it's
really good for Kansas, it'sreally good for Arizona, it's
really good for Texas, likethere are certainly places that
(26:32):
that as much as they say inthis, this gets back to the
whole thing. Everyone wants itto be down grid, it's just not
in their own backyard. Everyonewants the extra VA facilities
for them. So
Dr. David Shulkin (26:44):
the funny thing hearing you talk about
this, of course, when I used togo before Congress, the last
thing they wanted was for VA tobuild anything because it was
after the Denver debacle of a $4billion construction, you know,
fiasco and I used to, you know,they used to say to me
privately, VA should not be inthe construction building
(27:08):
process. We don't want toauthorize anything for you. And
so that's times are changing.
Leo Shane (27:13):
Well, that's also where the devils in the details
here, because they again, wehaven't explained everything
yet. But if they're talkingabout outpatient clinics that
are partnerships with withlocal, you know, civilian
doctors, then is that buildingis that just sending some
doctors over here are there arethere ways to do partnerships
that are lower impact, but havemore reach, but also,
(27:35):
fundamentally, just just makesure that veterans are being
taken care of and veterans havehave lower, lower drive times
and more access.
Louis Celli (27:43):
And it was interesting to hear you talk
about the IRS commission andwhat some of the groups were,
were sharing with you that whatthey thought that the purpose
was, and I can tell you I was inthe room when that was being
negotiated. And that was not thepurpose of purpose was not by
the group to push care out intothe community. It was to take a
(28:04):
responsible look at VA and findout where there is over capacity
where there's under capacitywith a with a bright knowledge
of it could conceivably includebuilding more facilities. And
it's interesting now that thatwas that was a bit of a partisan
wrangling when we werenegotiating the mission act,
(28:25):
actually. And now one of thevery first announcements to come
out was in as you said, SouthDakota and you know, Senator
Thune very powerful, you know,very powerful senators, one of
the first ones come out and say,Well, no, you're not closing
anything here. So, you know,what, what is it that you see
coming out of this?
Leo Shane (28:43):
I see a very interesting year long discussion
about what VAs role is and whatVAs footprint should be. And to
be honest, if that's all thatcomes out of it. That's that's
probably good for the countrythere. I mean, that is at its
heart. That was one of theissues here. As you said, a lot
of this falls in the eye of thebeholder. I remember plenty of
(29:05):
folks saying, Look, we couldbuild more facilities. I also
remember plenty of folks in theTrump administration saying,
Yeah, I guess we could buildsome more facilities. But
really, this is about closing.
So it's, it was what part of thesentence did you want to yell?
And what part of the sentencedid you want to whisper? So but
look, this is eyes, as we'veheard from from, I think the
last four or five secretaries ina row now and I know I know,
(29:25):
Secretary Shulkin, you weretalking about this. VA has a has
a aging infrastructure. There isthere is no debate over that
many of these facilities, thereneeds to be a hard look of, are
we going to close them down? Arewe going to demolish them and
replace them? Are we going toupgrade them and if we don't
upgrade them? How? Howdisrespectful is that to the
(29:45):
needs of younger veterans, theneeds of women veterans who
there's not facilities in someof these places for them. How do
we address that? So if thisbecomes a at its at its best,
this is a year long. publicconversation not just in the
veterans community but withlocal communities about what's
the importance of VA medicalfacilities? What role does it
(30:07):
play in America right now? Andwhere do they need to go? That's
the best case scenario and itsworst case scenario. It's a
partisan fight overprivatization and, and
outsourcing, VA is mission andeveryone just yells at each
other. And we're back to squareone. And we end up with a
handful of VA facilities thatare a year older and with no
(30:27):
real plan for upgrading them.
Dr. David Shulkin (30:31):
So Leo, you know, these are these are
complex issues come healthcareis complex alone. But when you
interface the needs of veterans,the political aspects, you know,
what the future of healthcareholds, and whether you need
these facilities, it gets verycomplex. And it's even more
(30:53):
complex when there hasn't beenan undersecretary for health
since February of 2000. The
Leo Shane (31:00):
last one of those, I'm trying to remember the last
guy who had that job, who wasSenate confirmed, I think he
went on to some other jobs.
Dr. David Shulkin (31:07):
Yeah. But you know, Leo, it's been more than
five years, and you haven'treally covered that issue in
terms of how can you haverespect for our nation's
veterans, and have theessentially the CEO of the
health system position open forfive years? And you know, who is
(31:29):
going to make these complexdecisions? Of course, there's
the Secretary, but the Secretaryhas a lot of things on their
plate. But, you know, so thatnow finally, yesterday, there's
a nomination for a newundersecretary, which, of
course, I think is great newsfor VA, they still have to get
(31:49):
confirmed, of course. But that'swhat we need. We need somebody
who's in that chair, who canhelp oversee and guide some of
these decisions.
Leo Shane (31:59):
It is it is astounding to me that we are two
years into a global pandemicwhere VA was called on to
implement its fourth mission toact as the backbone to America's
health system, to reach out helpvaccinate all sorts of federal
workers on top of all theveterans and family members they
had to do. And we did all ofthat without a Senate confirmed
(32:21):
head of the Veterans HealthAdministration like I, again,
you you were the last one toserve in this job as Senate
confirmed, there have been folkswho have have done admirable
work and acting jobs in theinterim. But but this is this is
not just another throwawayPentagon position where you're
making you're pushing somestuff. This has been very key
(32:42):
health care decisions, very key,you know, guidance for where
what, what should be thepriority for medical care for
how things should operate forsetting up vaccination
priorities for all sorts ofstuff, and it's all been done on
on an interim basis. That isthat is mind boggling. I cannot
I cannot imagine the DoD gettingaway with this the same way the
(33:04):
VA did. I cannot imagine therewouldn't be just a front page
stories on major newspapers.
I've written quite a lot aboutthis. They've had candidates
things have fallen apart, youprobably know more behind the
scenes on some of these than Ido. But but it's been it's it's
been a point of frustration forfor the veterans groups been a
point of frustration for for,frankly, the media to know,
(33:25):
again, not to diminish theSecretary's vote at all. But
you're you're supposed to havesomebody who's your right hand
man answering these medicalquestions for you, or right hand
woman and there's been a righthand, nobody this whole time. So
it's astounding. It's justastounding that that now so it
would not surprise me if this isa record for one of the quickest
confirmations and Senate historybecause I know lawmakers have
(33:46):
been dying to get someone inthere. So if if they if they
call him up next week and sayyour confirmations on Thursday,
and the votes on Friday, goodstuff in here. I wouldn't I
wouldn't shock me.
Louis Celli (33:59):
Well, let's let's talk a little bit about the
pandemic. You mentioned it. Andyou know, the nation has
essentially gone undercover fora couple of years. So have you
know, so have many of thedepartments VA is no different.
And now we're starting to see aswe emerge out of the pandemic,
what does the infrastructure ofVA look like? I mean, with
regard to employees, employeescoming back to work, the amount
(34:22):
that have stayed the amount, thethe amount of left, you know,
caregiver support caregivers nowis, as you know, is starting to
heat up and become an issue.
There's a lot EHR modernization,there are just so many major
projects that have kind ofeither gone to sleep, or we just
haven't heard much about them.
What are we looking at comingout of this? Yeah, it's
Leo Shane (34:41):
it's gonna be interesting, because on top of
all those things you mentioned,there's just the the issue of
the deferred care, too. I mean,it's not just that VA has to
return to normal operations.
You've got to return to supernormal operations where all of
those all those cancerscreenings, all of those just
routine appointments and thosecheckups never I think they all
have to be made up for now. Andthere's going to be health
(35:02):
complications that come inthere. So there, again, it
changes from administration toadministration, this
administration seems veryfocused on building up VA more.
They're not talking aboutreducing folks, but they are
talking about a more, I guess, amore pro worker environment.
They're talking about moretelework capabilities, talking
(35:23):
about more telehealthcapabilities to talking about
maybe not the, the oldestablished thing. And I think,
you know, just a few years ago,these were these were kind of
unthinkable actions, not justnot just because of, you know,
stodgy old policies, but becauseof the technology available,
because what people know, Imean, you know, that the idea of
doing major, major corporatemeetings on Zoom was was unheard
(35:45):
of three years ago. And now it'scommonplace. So, you know, to
get the multiplier of moretelehealth to be able to say to
benefits processors, hey, Idon't know if I care if you come
in every day, but just come inon Friday and get your work
done. Maybe that creates more,maybe that creates more
efficiency. Maybe it doesn't.
And maybe we find a year fromnow that folks who could come
(36:07):
back yeah, just wanted to stayhome because they're feeling
lazier, it gets back to thatoversight. And as you know, VA
is not an easy, not an easydepartment have oversight, we're
talking 400,000 plus employees,we're talking about taking care
of, of 9 million veterans,that's before we get into all
the benefits and all the moneythat goes out the door. This is
just a massive unappreciatedagency, for most of the public,
(36:32):
and I, you know, as much as wetalk about it as much as the
VSOs scream about it. I don'tknow what it's going to take for
the public to start viewing VAthe same way it views DoD the
same way of views the Departmentof Education in terms of its
importance to the core ofAmerica,
Louis Celli (36:50):
well, we're coming up, kind of on the end of our
time, but I mean, there are somany issues that I want to make
sure that we touch on realquick, like some of the big
issues like, you know, burn pitsand the expansion of community
care, you know, where do you seethese things? Is there going to
be a huge fight over how much VAhas spent historically now on
community care, as opposed toeven three, four or five years
(37:11):
ago? And, you know, are we goingto need legislation for burn
pits? Or is VA just going tosolve it with administrative,
you know, decision making, How'sthat look?
Leo Shane (37:21):
Now we're gonna need legislation on burn pits. I
mean, that's, that seems clear,just just looking at the past,
VA will, will take some steps,but there's some stuff they're
going to have to be forced intouncomfortably. And, frankly,
there's cover and legislationand decisions that have to be
made this burn pits is going tobe the big issue this year. And
that's largely thanks toPresident Biden putting it in
the State of the Union address.
This is something that MilitaryTimes was writing about as far
(37:43):
back as 2008. Before my timewith company, we've all known
it's a problem. We all know, thehealth issues, the country is
finally going to have I believethe country is finally going to
have a good reckoning on thisthis year. And we'll see if that
means legislation on communitycare. That's going to be wrapped
up a lot. I think in the thecommission, I think that we'll
have some really interestingconversations about what does it
(38:05):
mean to co locate VA doctorswith private doctors? How does
this relationship work? How isthe money actually being spent?
You know, there's, there's avery big conversation to be had
about what are the standards toit's not just enough to say,
well, we need VA doctors to dothis. But if you go to a private
doctor, they can do whatever. SoCongress and VA have to come to
terms with how are they going toset standards for what care is
(38:28):
available? What are the accessstandards, one of the wait times
for private care so so they'reones and the other one that you
didn't mention, but I knowyou're thinking of his
caregivers, that's that's goingto be a nasty fight this year.
There's a lot of caregivers thatare being dropped off the VAs
program this fall, or actually,they won't be dropped off till
next year. But as we talk aboutthe burn pits issue, as we talk
(38:48):
about military families, Iexpect there to be a lot of
conversation about caregivers toexpect Congress to get involved
at some point and try and reinin some of the changes that are
being made to that program.
Dr. David Shulkin (39:01):
Hey, I think Leo, your predictions, your
thoughts, your yourunderstanding these issues are
really helpful. We reallyappreciate you being with us.
I'm gonna just wrap up with onefinal question. And that is this
invasion of Russia into Ukraine,I think has the potential for
(39:22):
changing everything in Americanpolitics and issues. Do you see
coming out of this, that theAmerican public is going to have
a renewed interest in themilitary, the US military and
veterans and that this will helpgalvanize some of that interest
that you've talked about intreating our veterans the right
(39:42):
way? Understanding that Americacan't retreat from the world
stage.
Leo Shane (39:48):
Yeah, let me let me put my my veterans community hat
on and say, Yes, I believe thatthat country will and will, you
know, there there'll be the youknow, this is obviously this is
this is a Conflict, like wehaven't seen in quite some time.
And there is, you know, it'sit's so connected to what the
world could be. And people areseeing horrible images for
(40:09):
Ukraine. So this, of course, isgoing to be something that gets
people more invested moreinvolved in the military and
more aware of the veteranscommunity. Let me take off my
veterans community hat and putmy reporter hat on and say no, I
mean, I, you know, we've seenthis before we've seen it's,
it's so like, I, the thing Ialways come back to with with
(40:29):
veterans issues is I know, theydon't affect a lot of folks
outside the veterans community.
But there's veterans living onyour street right now and
affects them that, you know,people this affects, and there
is a there is an empathy inthere. So I, you know, if if US
troops aren't directly involvedin Ukraine, I wonder if it will
amplify any message for the USmilitary, I actually think that
(40:52):
the burn pits issue may bebigger in terms of people
refocusing on what the militaryhas done, what the sacrifice has
been, then Ukraine, that's, ofcourse, being very hopeful that
US troops aren't pulled into thesituation Ukraine, and with
Russia acting as erratically asit is. That's the fear, right?
That's the fear. There's athere's 100,000 US troops in
(41:13):
Europe, there's very sensitiveareas, there's some folks that
are very close to the frontlinesof the fighting. Now, without
actually being in Ukraine. Itdoesn't take a lot of mistakes
for us all of a sudden to slideinto a world war. And God
forbid, I don't, as much as Ilove covering veterans, I don't
want to be creating more combatveterans with more wounds to
cover I want to be talking abouthow to fix all the ones that we
(41:34):
haven't dealt with yet andhopefully, lead to a future
where we're just dealing with,with old issues and folks coming
out of a peacetime militarywhere I can talk about those
education and those job trainingprograms that I'd like to write
about
Louis Celli (41:49):
Leo, as you drop the mic there. That's a perfect
place to end and I just, I can'tthank you enough for taking the
time to join us. This is reallythis has been one of our one of
our greater podcasts, and weappreciate having you on. And
that really is all the time thatwe have for this week. So
listen, join us next week. We'vegot a great podcast coming up.
(42:12):
We've got Kelly McKeague, thedirector of the defense pow Mia
accounting agency DPAA you'renot gonna want to miss this.
We'll see you next week.
Charlie Malone (42:24):
Thanks for listening to the policy. That's
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts. Go to policy. That'sdot org.
I know there will be VA is closed. We haven't as of
this taping, we don't have thenames yet, but they have talked
about building a few more VAmedical centers and closing four
or five, maybe even a few morewhat they're talking about
replacing these, these VAmedical centers with our
outpatient clinics arepartnerships with other local
(00:21):
clinics. So if you say we'regoing to close down to the
hospital, that's going to paniceverybody, if you say we're
going to build three moreoutpatient clinics all around
town, and it's going to beeasier for everybody to get
there. That's that's great forveterans.
Charlie Malone (00:36):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast, engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theexecutive director of policy.
That's Louis Celli. Today'sguest Leo Shane, an award
(00:56):
winning national reporterfocused on military and veterans
issues for Military Times.
Louis Celli (01:05):
So Mr. Secretary, big, big week for the Department
of Veterans Affairs, a lot ofannouncements. You know, we're
starting to come out of thepandemic. And it looks like
people are starting to wake upagain.
Dr. David Shulkin (01:17):
Yeah, and not not too soon with this beginning
of theirs commission process, Iwas really worried about VA not
having its appointees in place.
And that's going to be reallyimportant that the VA and
veterans be represented bypeople who know what they're
doing. So that this isn't acomplete political process, that
this really is one that makessense for veterans,
Louis Celli (01:42):
it really is refreshing a lot of the names
that came out on the nomineelists or names that that we're
familiar with in the community.
And that does give us a sense ofcomfort, to know that there are
folks that at least have workedin the community that are now
being tapped. But listen, morespecifically, the the
undersecretary for health, Imean, a position that that
hasn't been filled in quite along time as you as you well
know.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:04):
Yeah. And, you know, it's great to see that
the nominee is a person that Ihave such confidence in, he was
my White House fellow, which,which meant that he and I spent
every day together, you know,the way which I work with my
White House Fellows, my calendarwas theirs, they would get sit
(02:25):
in on all my meetings, and Igave them projects and really
tested the mountain. In fact, hewas such a good fellow that
after his year was over, hestayed at VA took on a position
and that really showed hiscommitment, it really showed my
confidence. And in doing that,and then he's since left VA to
(02:47):
go out and get great experienceas the Commissioner of Health of
the state of New Jersey, and nowcurrently the CEO of the
University Hospital in Newark,New Jersey, which is a large,
important underserved healthsystem that serves people
throughout Northern New Jersey,and to see that that experience
(03:08):
will all be accrued to thebenefit of VA and VA and
veterans I think is reallyterrific.
Louis Celli (03:15):
Well in and the nominee for the Under Secretary
of benefits Ray Jeffers. Great,I think that's a great pic great
nominees, oh, he's a wonderfulguy, and he's taking over a shop
that's fairly healthy. You know,Murphy has really, really held
things together quite well forhim. So it looks like veterans
are in pretty good shape now.
Dr. David Shulkin (03:35):
Yeah, I think so that doesn't mean that there
aren't significant challengesahead. And that the, you know,
wheels aren't squeaking a littlebit, just from from not having
leadership in place for sometime. And so I think that this
is, as you said, an opportunityto really get the
(03:55):
administration's agenda intogear. And, and to make sure that
not only no harm is done withwith, you know, the new
initiatives going on, but thatthere is a vision that's
implemented, and we can reallymake progress.
Louis Celli (04:13):
Well, I think this is an exciting podcast, I'm
really excited about thisepisode, because we we get to
take a look back at where, wherethe Department of Veterans
Affairs has been, where they'vecome from, you know, just over
the past 10 years, the the, thebudget has essentially doubled
$268 billion. And that's a lotof money. Right? So it's got to
(04:34):
be managed, and are we beinggood stewards of the people's
money? So, you know, as as welook at that, you know, we're
looking at folks that have beenin this community for a while
and who can walk through thiswith us? And I think Leo Shane
is probably really just one ofthe best people to do
Dr. David Shulkin (04:52):
that with.
Yeah, well, you know, I'vealways taken the position that
the problems of VA were neverdue to lack of money, and I
think it's easy in Washington tosay, if there's a problem, throw
money at it, I think that thishas always been an issue of
getting the getting thestructure, the vision, the the
focus of the organization in theright direction and making it
(05:13):
clear where this organization'sgoing. And quite frankly,
political turnover, VA, youknow, every two years changing
leadership, no organizationstays with a consistency and,
and, and is able to implementthat agenda in such a large
place with that constantturnover. So I'm hoping that, as
(05:34):
we talked about, we're nowseeing the team being put in
place and giving them the chanceto do their job. But Leo Shane,
who we're going to hear fromreal soon, I think is one of
those people who has the reallygood ability to understand these
issues, because of his length oftime covering these issues. He
(05:58):
is not afraid to tell you likeit is he is a fair guy, whether
you like his questions or not,are usually not coming with a
specific gotcha agenda. So Ithink that he is in a unique
position in Washington to beable to comment on this very
special time that we'rewatching.
Louis Celli (06:20):
Now, I think you're right, Leo is very well
respected in the industry. I'vebeen interviewed by him, you
know, a great number of times.
And there was one occasion whenI was I was young, in, in my
position over at the AmericanLegion. I've only been there for
a couple of months. And I wasalways studying an issue. And he
wanted to interview me on it.
And I was I was giving him thebest answer that, you know, that
(06:42):
I possibly could give him and hehad to stop and correct me. He's
like, Well, no, actually, thelaw says this. And I knew right
then in there, that, you know,if I was ever to speak to a
reporter, especially Leo, Shane,I better have my facts together
because he knows him. If not aswell, sometimes better than the
person he's interviewing does.
Dr. David Shulkin (06:58):
Yeah. And it will be fun to turn the tables,
napkins questions.
Louis Celli (07:03):
That's exactly right. I I think he's looking
forward to it as well. And he'ssuch a great sport, too.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:09):
Yeah. So why don't we get him in here? I
can't wait.
Louis Celli (07:21):
Leo, welcome to the policy. That's podcast. It is
really great to have you herewith us.
Leo Shane (07:25):
Thank you for the invite. You've been you've been
trying to get me on here for alittle while. And I've always
got some breaking news that I'mdealing with. So I appreciate
appreciate your patience.
Dr. David Shulkin (07:34):
But Leo, we're glad to have you on today.
And I think before we getstarted, you know, we've all
known each other for a while.
But why don't you tell ourlisteners how you started
focusing on veterans in thefirst place?
Leo Shane (07:48):
Yeah, I sort of I kind of wandered backwards into
it. Actually, I wish I had likethis inspiring story that I
always wanted to cover themilitary veterans but I, I moved
to a move to DC I had a politicscareer was looking for just
another reporting job andstarted to work at Stars and
Stripes, you know, convincedthem that they had never had a
(08:09):
congressional reporter before itconvinced them that I could do
that. Since they didn't havecongressional Reporter They
didn't know that. I didn't knowwhat I was doing yet. But I
learned on the job as much as Icould. And it fascinated me
covering the military community,how much people focused on the
active duty military and not theveteran side. So as I got to do
more of those stories, as I gotjust more welcomed in by the
(08:30):
veterans community, it became anatural segue to focus on those
stories focus on the stories ofthe folks after they came back
and, and really just just honein on those issues.
Louis Celli (08:40):
Well, and to be fair, I mean, you've been you've
been recognized pretty much asan expert in this area. I mean,
other news agencies and andoutlets invite you on to tell
them about veterans issues is isa kind of weird, you know,
helping them with their newsstories. When when you're
reporting yourself. It's
Leo Shane (08:59):
It's terrifying.
Whenever anybody says thatyou're an expert on this, I'm
like, There must there must besomebody who knows more. I know
there are people who know morethan me so not like it's it's
it's a it's a blessing in thesense that I think that it's
tough for a lot of newsorganizations to cover veterans
issues. I think that they don'talways think about it until
there's some terrible breakingnews until there's some issue,
(09:20):
you know, burn pits is now thebig issue. I don't think I heard
from several news organizationswho said they didn't know
anything about this issue. Theyhaven't been covering it. So to
be able to share what I'velearned from the community be
able to share what I've writtenon it's great to feel that that
thing Yeah, it's it's weird. I'mused to being on this side. I'm
(09:40):
used to being on the side whereI'm asking the questions and,
and you know, I get to poke youand ask what's going on. So
it's, it's odd to be on theother side, but it's also I feel
like I've got a comfort level tosay I'm just relaying what you
would what you would hear if youcovered the veterans community
better.
Dr. David Shulkin (09:59):
Well leave Sometimes I think that you fill
a really needed void, becausethe department itself always
doesn't make itself available tocomment on these issues. They
sort of aren't out therefilling, you know, speaking on
these topics, they they are muchquieter in some cases. And
you've been following theDepartment of Veteran Affairs
(10:22):
and veterans issues for so long.
Do you see major changes in theway that the political
appointees make themselvesavailable to the media in
different administrations? Orhave you worked with different
secretaries or or press officersthat are much easier to work
with than others? Does it changea lot? Or is it been pretty
(10:44):
consistent?
Leo Shane (10:46):
So this is this is where I would turn it back
around and get you on these onsome of these questions. If we
were in a different, different?
Look, I think it changes from itchanges from Secretary to
Secretary. So I felt that thatyou were very open personally,
during during youradministration there. I know
there were constraints with theWhite House, after you left, we
had almost no communication withwith senior leadership over at
(11:11):
VA and that has turned arounddramatically under this
administration, we do have amuch more, much more open, we're
having monthly pressconferences, there's a lot more
communication. Is it always 100%truthful? Is it always
everything I want? No, there'salways a push and pull. But but
there is a there is a feel as wego along. You know, even even
Secretary Shinseki, you know,back when in the beginning of
(11:35):
the Obama ministration. He wassomeone who I respected greatly,
but was not media savvy all thetime was someone who was very
reluctant to engage with themedia. So you know, there's
there's this continual change.
And that's that I think that'salways been the Achilles heel of
the Department of VeteransAffairs, there are great
stories, there are importantstories, this is a this is a
(11:58):
agency that has a very bigbudget that takes care of
millions of veterans thatprovides a critical backbone of
support for veterans, whether ornot the department wants to, it
needs to be talking about this,not just to me, not just the
veterans community, but to theAmerican public, the public
needs to know what veterans howveterans are being taken care
of, and when they're not andwhat else their needs are. So.
(12:19):
So it's it's something that canalways be improved. I have seen
under this administration, somereally big steps forward. And I
hope that this is just the startof that.
Dr. David Shulkin (12:28):
Leo, I think that's really good to hear that
you're getting that type ofopenness right now in this
administration, because I dothink that's important. And I
think you made some really goodpoints that it probably does
depend upon how comfortable theSecretary or other political
appointees are in terms of theirown ability to speak to the
(12:50):
media, but you know, regardless,but I always felt as secretary,
that I had an obligation that ifI took a job that represented my
fellow, you know, Americans andand I was doing this with
taxpayer dollars, that whether Iwanted to or not that I had an
obligation to make myselfavailable to the media to ask
(13:12):
questions that needed to beanswered.
Leo Shane (13:14):
And it's, it's a, it's a philosophical approach to
it. I mean, I always I always,we had plenty of times that we
sparred on things, but I alwaysfelt like you were available.
And you were not reluctant totalk to the media. It was
exactly how John McCain operatedon Capitol Hill, John McCain,
there were plenty of times hewould come over. And he would
curse out reporters because hedidn't like what they were
asking. But he always made sureto come over because he said
(13:35):
part of my job is communicatingto the public. There's there's a
trend with, with conservativesnow and even some some members
Democratic Party that I cancommunicate with voters, I can
communicate with the public onmy own, I don't need the media,
I don't need to answer. And, youknow, as a reporter, that's
disheartening. Because my goalis not to tear someone down. My
goal is not to, you know, pushan agenda. My goal is to inform
(13:59):
the public. And I know we have alot of veterans and military
members who are reading us whojust want to know what's going
on. So. So even if you're notgiving me an answer that I like,
all the time, I just I care thatyou're giving me an answer.
Louis Celli (14:12):
You know, you've brought up some things about
the, you know, about theenvironment, about the the
political environment, about thepersonnel, and we're going to
talk about that a little bitlater. And one of the things I'd
like to like to get yourperspective on is because you've
been doing this a while, whatare some of the biggest changes
you've seen over the VA and inthis, you know, in this
community over the past, say 10years?
Leo Shane (14:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's people
caring. I think like, I rememberwhen I started covering these
issues I had, I had folks fromthe Veteran Service Organization
saying no one will no one willtalk about us. No one will talk
about our issues. And especiallywhen I started at Stars and
Stripes, this was back in youknow, 405 it was the height of
(14:52):
the the Iraq War, theAfghanistan wars. Everything was
focused on the the currentoperations and the active duty
stuff. There was very littlethought given to what happens to
these folks when they come home.
Very little thought given to allthe folks who'd already come. I
mean, when people hear how longthe agent orange fight has been
going on, when your averagecivilian hears that they're
astounded that, that that wasn'ttaken care of sometime in the
(15:15):
80s, or even the 90s. That, youknow, as late as the 2000 10s,
we're still dealing with some ofthese health conditions and
learning about it. So. So thereis a there is just a more
cultural awareness. Some of thatis the size of the VA budget VA
budget was $40 billion back in2000. It's $270 billion dollars.
Now. I mean, that's, that's agigantic sum of money. There
(15:37):
should be more reporterstracking that money. It
shouldn't just be me. I'm happyto get all the stories that I
can. But there should be someother folks who are who are
digging in as well.
Dr. David Shulkin (15:47):
Are you saying that you don't have
colleagues and peers thatthere's not, there's not a group
of you who meets togethersecretly for breakfast that
follows all the VA, you knowthat the the lease arrives from
the bank will not
Leo Shane (16:02):
reveal any of the names on our secret VA Chatlin
on this podcast, but there thereis a very healthy VA press
corps. Now, I think I think youknow, you remember from your
time, there's a few regularsthat you saw, but you're really
talking about three or fourfolks whose whose face you saw,
were probably closer to 10 or12. Folks, when you look at the
(16:24):
DOD, there is a cadre of about70 people who are regularly
covering every aspect of thatdepartment. And it's I am not
taking anything away from it.
It's a major department, it is amajor part of America, it needs
to be covered. But so does VAthere's like there are major
papers that that have had peoplepart timing this that people
(16:44):
sort of wandering in and out onon different issues. And
unfortunately, I've seen somegreat colleagues who have done
great VA work just sort of fadeoff because their papers don't
don't support them. So luckily,Military Times, this is a core
audience for us. We you know,they're not going to take me off
the veterans beat but but it's atough sell. Even though every
(17:05):
community in America hasveterans, everybody's got
veterans, everybody should careabout this. It'll be interesting
to see with with this, and maybewe'll get into this. But this
upcoming asset andinfrastructure review, when we
start to see some facilitiesbeing closed down, we start to
see some facilities being built,is that going to have more of a
local community effort, peopleare going to all of a sudden
say, wait, wait, what is? Whatis VA doing? What does it mean
(17:28):
to have a VA hospital in mybackyard? Is that just is that
just another landmark? Or isthat actually reflective of the
number of veterans and thenumber of veterans needs in this
area?
Dr. David Shulkin (17:39):
All right.
Well, you mentioned there'scommission so you know, you
brought it on? Why don't youtell us whether you think that
there really are going to be VAsthat are going to be closed,
Leo Shane (17:51):
I know there will be VAs closed, we haven't as of
this taping, we don't have thenames yet, but they have talked
about building a few more VAmedical centers and closing four
or five, maybe even a few more.
It's it's a it's gonna be aninteresting restructuring. We've
already heard some of theleadership pitch this but look
VA needs to evolve to there areother health clinics out there,
(18:13):
what they're talking aboutreplacing these, these VA
medical centers with ouroutpatient clinics are
partnerships with other localclinics. So if you say we're
going to close down a VAhospital, that's going to panic.
But if you say we're going tobuild three more outpatient
clinics all around town, andit's going to be easier for
everybody to get there. That'sthat's great for veterans. And
(18:35):
that's this gets to the inherentaccess issues of all the
complaints I've heard about VAover the years are not the
quality of care or not the care,the actual sincerity of care
people, the veterans, I talkedto love their VA doctors, they
love going to see them, it's amatter of whether or not they
can get in and if they've got athree hour drive to get there.
So so does does, you know, inplaces like Ohio, and places
(18:58):
like upstate New York, do, theyneed to have these large VA
facilities when there's not thedemand there. And conversely,
then they need to have likeseven VA hospitals in Arizona,
because everybody in the worldis moving down there. And
they've got all these veteransthat need care,
Louis Celli (19:13):
you bring up a really good point about
interview one of the few peoplethat cover this and you're happy
to get all the stories, but youknow, you get caught up in the
emotional rollercoaster of eachissue and report as an advocate
spent a lot of time trying toforecast and predict like, what
the announcements will be aboutand who the nominees will be
whether someone will beresigning or getting fired. And
(19:33):
you know, it's a fast movingtrain, is it is it hard to keep
up with all that?
Leo Shane (19:38):
It's it's a lot and it's, you know, part of part of
the job is figuring out what'sworth highlighting and what's
not. Well, I mean, I tell I tellpeople who aren't reporters all
the time you don't. The part youdon't understand is that why I
don't write certain stories andwhy I can't get to certain
stories, how you prioritizethings. So And from my
(19:59):
perspective, It's a differentpriority than a lot of a lot of
folks perspectives are gettinggetting back to the earlier idea
of VA doing a better job talkingto reporters marketing
themselves. I want to writestories about PTSD pilot
programs and about educationand, you know, job training
programs that are out there.
Those are things that I know theWashington Post can't cover,
because there's just not theconcentration of interest on
(20:21):
that. But but for me, for myaudience, for military veterans,
audience, those are those arehuge things. They want to know
if there's a this this programthat's going to help 15,000
veterans, okay, I understand whythe New York Times can't cover
that. But like, please talk tome about that. Please let me get
that out there. So and as yousaid, there's there's always, at
the heart of all this is is theveterans themselves. So I get I
(20:44):
get emails, several emails a dayof folks, I lost my benefits, my
caregiver benefits are indanger. I have this question
about burn pits. I will tell youthat the the most rewarding
thing I've done in my careerwhen people ask me what's what's
my favorite story was, was backwhen the when the post 911 GI
bill first passed when I was atStars and Stripes, we we just
(21:08):
did a mailbag. We just did amailbag of people sending in
questions, we did our best toanswer all of them. And I felt
like I was helping veterans allover the world, figure out their
education plans for the next 10years, potentially changing
their whole life. And I can't, Ican't point to a single person
and say, I know because you readmy story, you got this career
and your life's better. But Isure hope those folks are out
(21:30):
there because I poured a lot oftime and effort into doing that.
And I, I know, just from theresponse, I got that a lot of
people were appreciative, justbe able to say, thank you. I
just I just needed thesequestions answered at a time
when VA setting up stuff, andit's a hard bureaucracy, and you
could just get down to helpingsome individual folks understand
what was going on.
Dr. David Shulkin (21:52):
So Leo, I have to go back to your
predictions on the errorsCommission and the restructuring
of the system. Because, youknow, you make it sound easy.
You make it sound rational. Itseems like it's in the best
interest of everyone. But you'vebeen covering this long enough
to know that that isn't alwaysthe way the story gets written
(22:15):
in Washington. And so why don'tyou see the IRS commission
really deteriorating into apolitical battleground? You
know, this is typically been theissue that has divided, you
know, Congress on where and whatthe VA should look like and
should be structured. And isthis really simply another
(22:40):
stalking horse to downgrade theVAs capabilities?
Leo Shane (22:44):
Yeah. And that, look, you're right, this is going to
be a massive fight over the nextyear, I guess, I guess my my
perspective on this is I have Ihave covered base closing
rounds, way back in the day.
They were always contentious,they were always a mess. But
they did ultimately go through.
So there is a level of you know,we've seen the commissioners who
(23:05):
are named to the to thecommission. Now, there's a level
of, you know, Carl Blake's onthere, Pat Murphy's on, there's
a bunch of names of folks who Iknow are connected, who I know
are really going to listen tothe veterans community. You
know, without without puttingmyself too far out there, I have
some faith that they'll at leastbe able to put together some
intelligent consensus stepsforward. And if they can really
(23:28):
make a convincing argument as towhy closing a few VA Medical
Centers is beneficial if it'sreplaced by these other things
that so what we know right nowis that a total the number of VA
medical facilities is going toincrease by about 100. So that
means that there will be morepartnerships, more building. So
(23:49):
if they are successful, they'llsell it as we are providing more
care, even if we're seeing someindividual buildings go out. But
you're right. This is for folksin South Dakota, if they closed
down that hotsprings. Va, it'sgoing to be messy, it's going to
be a very angry situation. Andthey're going to need to justify
it. If they code Chillicothe,Ohio and they say that VA is
gone. That's going to be messyfor the entire Ohio delegation,
(24:11):
there's going to be a big fightthere. So you know, of course,
Congress is always rational andcalm and has no emotional
outbursts. So I can't imagineCongress will, will take apart
like, it's, it's politics, andit comes down to politics to
come down to how well they howwell they pitch some of this,
(24:32):
but there's going to becommunities that are hurt by
this. The question is, in theaggregate, is it going to be
better for veterans as a whole?
Dr. David Shulkin (24:40):
Well, you know, Leo, I love this where I
get to ask you questions insteadof the other way around.
Leo Shane (24:45):
Very uncomfortable.
Dr. David Shulkin (24:46):
Yeah, but it's so much easier, I'll tell
you. But listen, you say thatthe commissioners have been
named to the heirs commission.
That's not exactly true. TheDemocratic commissioners have
been there The chair of thecommission has been named but
the Republicans,
Leo Shane (25:04):
that one Republican has been named, the Republicans
still are waiting on the otherone. And that is that is a bad
sign that is a sign that this isalready becoming politicized.
We're supposed to have that namea year ago, almost a year ago.
Right? You have to wonder if,and I have heard, you know, the
groups involved. I've heard fromquite a few groups who are
already saying, the Democratshave ruined the purpose of this,
(25:27):
the purpose of this was to trimdown VA, the purpose of this was
to push more care into thecommunity and McDonogh is not
doing that McDonald instead isbuilding up VA, and this is all
going to be a disaster. So youknow, look, the Congress is
probably going to switch handsin the fall. So this is probably
going to be a decision to bemade to be made by a Republican
(25:48):
controlled Congress around thistime next year, whether or not
to accept these recommendations.
And that could be a real big hotpotato. I do wonder if even even
with those ideas, if VA isproposed, while while there is
an overarching feeling on theRepublican side that VA needs to
scale down, and it needs to pushmore care into the community. If
(26:10):
VA comes to Kansas and sayswe're building 10 More VA
facilities there is is JerryMoran going to say, No, I won't
support this, or is Jerry Morangonna say? Well, it's really
good for Kansas, I wish youwould do a better job. But it's
really good for Kansas, it'sreally good for Arizona, it's
really good for Texas, likethere are certainly places that
(26:32):
that as much as they say inthis, this gets back to the
whole thing. Everyone wants itto be down grid, it's just not
in their own backyard. Everyonewants the extra VA facilities
for them. So
Dr. David Shulkin (26:44):
the funny thing hearing you talk about
this, of course, when I used togo before Congress, the last
thing they wanted was for VA tobuild anything because it was
after the Denver debacle of a $4billion construction, you know,
fiasco and I used to, you know,they used to say to me
privately, VA should not be inthe construction building
(27:08):
process. We don't want toauthorize anything for you. And
so that's times are changing.
Leo Shane (27:13):
Well, that's also where the devils in the details
here, because they again, wehaven't explained everything
yet. But if they're talkingabout outpatient clinics that
are partnerships with withlocal, you know, civilian
doctors, then is that buildingis that just sending some
doctors over here are there arethere ways to do partnerships
that are lower impact, but havemore reach, but also,
(27:35):
fundamentally, just just makesure that veterans are being
taken care of and veterans havehave lower, lower drive times
and more access.
Louis Celli (27:43):
And it was interesting to hear you talk
about the IRS commission andwhat some of the groups were,
were sharing with you that whatthey thought that the purpose
was, and I can tell you I was inthe room when that was being
negotiated. And that was not thepurpose of purpose was not by
the group to push care out intothe community. It was to take a
(28:04):
responsible look at VA and findout where there is over capacity
where there's under capacitywith a with a bright knowledge
of it could conceivably includebuilding more facilities. And
it's interesting now that thatwas that was a bit of a partisan
wrangling when we werenegotiating the mission act,
(28:25):
actually. And now one of thevery first announcements to come
out was in as you said, SouthDakota and you know, Senator
Thune very powerful, you know,very powerful senators, one of
the first ones come out and say,Well, no, you're not closing
anything here. So, you know,what, what is it that you see
coming out of this?
Leo Shane (28:43):
I see a very interesting year long discussion
about what VAs role is and whatVAs footprint should be. And to
be honest, if that's all thatcomes out of it. That's that's
probably good for the countrythere. I mean, that is at its
heart. That was one of theissues here. As you said, a lot
of this falls in the eye of thebeholder. I remember plenty of
(29:05):
folks saying, Look, we couldbuild more facilities. I also
remember plenty of folks in theTrump administration saying,
Yeah, I guess we could buildsome more facilities. But
really, this is about closing.
So it's, it was what part of thesentence did you want to yell?
And what part of the sentencedid you want to whisper? So but
look, this is eyes, as we'veheard from from, I think the
last four or five secretaries ina row now and I know I know,
(29:25):
Secretary Shulkin, you weretalking about this. VA has a has
a aging infrastructure. There isthere is no debate over that
many of these facilities, thereneeds to be a hard look of, are
we going to close them down? Arewe going to demolish them and
replace them? Are we going toupgrade them and if we don't
upgrade them? How? Howdisrespectful is that to the
(29:45):
needs of younger veterans, theneeds of women veterans who
there's not facilities in someof these places for them. How do
we address that? So if thisbecomes a at its at its best,
this is a year long. publicconversation not just in the
veterans community but withlocal communities about what's
the importance of VA medicalfacilities? What role does it
(30:07):
play in America right now? Andwhere do they need to go? That's
the best case scenario and itsworst case scenario. It's a
partisan fight overprivatization and, and
outsourcing, VA is mission andeveryone just yells at each
other. And we're back to squareone. And we end up with a
handful of VA facilities thatare a year older and with no
(30:27):
real plan for upgrading them.
Dr. David Shulkin (30:31):
So Leo, you know, these are these are
complex issues come healthcareis complex alone. But when you
interface the needs of veterans,the political aspects, you know,
what the future of healthcareholds, and whether you need
these facilities, it gets verycomplex. And it's even more
(30:53):
complex when there hasn't beenan undersecretary for health
since February of 2000. The
Leo Shane (31:00):
last one of those, I'm trying to remember the last
guy who had that job, who wasSenate confirmed, I think he
went on to some other jobs.
Dr. David Shulkin (31:07):
Yeah. But you know, Leo, it's been more than
five years, and you haven'treally covered that issue in
terms of how can you haverespect for our nation's
veterans, and have theessentially the CEO of the
health system position open forfive years? And you know, who is
(31:29):
going to make these complexdecisions? Of course, there's
the Secretary, but the Secretaryhas a lot of things on their
plate. But, you know, so thatnow finally, yesterday, there's
a nomination for a newundersecretary, which, of
course, I think is great newsfor VA, they still have to get
(31:49):
confirmed, of course. But that'swhat we need. We need somebody
who's in that chair, who canhelp oversee and guide some of
these decisions.
Leo Shane (31:59):
It is it is astounding to me that we are two
years into a global pandemicwhere VA was called on to
implement its fourth mission toact as the backbone to America's
health system, to reach out helpvaccinate all sorts of federal
workers on top of all theveterans and family members they
had to do. And we did all ofthat without a Senate confirmed
(32:21):
head of the Veterans HealthAdministration like I, again,
you you were the last one toserve in this job as Senate
confirmed, there have been folkswho have have done admirable
work and acting jobs in theinterim. But but this is this is
not just another throwawayPentagon position where you're
making you're pushing somestuff. This has been very key
(32:42):
health care decisions, very key,you know, guidance for where
what, what should be thepriority for medical care for
how things should operate forsetting up vaccination
priorities for all sorts ofstuff, and it's all been done on
on an interim basis. That isthat is mind boggling. I cannot
I cannot imagine the DoD gettingaway with this the same way the
(33:04):
VA did. I cannot imagine therewouldn't be just a front page
stories on major newspapers.
I've written quite a lot aboutthis. They've had candidates
things have fallen apart, youprobably know more behind the
scenes on some of these than Ido. But but it's been it's it's
been a point of frustration forfor the veterans groups been a
point of frustration for for,frankly, the media to know,
(33:25):
again, not to diminish theSecretary's vote at all. But
you're you're supposed to havesomebody who's your right hand
man answering these medicalquestions for you, or right hand
woman and there's been a righthand, nobody this whole time. So
it's astounding. It's justastounding that that now so it
would not surprise me if this isa record for one of the quickest
confirmations and Senate historybecause I know lawmakers have
(33:46):
been dying to get someone inthere. So if if they if they
call him up next week and sayyour confirmations on Thursday,
and the votes on Friday, goodstuff in here. I wouldn't I
wouldn't shock me.
Louis Celli (33:59):
Well, let's let's talk a little bit about the
pandemic. You mentioned it. Andyou know, the nation has
essentially gone undercover fora couple of years. So have you
know, so have many of thedepartments VA is no different.
And now we're starting to see aswe emerge out of the pandemic,
what does the infrastructure ofVA look like? I mean, with
regard to employees, employeescoming back to work, the amount
(34:22):
that have stayed the amount, thethe amount of left, you know,
caregiver support caregivers nowis, as you know, is starting to
heat up and become an issue.
There's a lot EHR modernization,there are just so many major
projects that have kind ofeither gone to sleep, or we just
haven't heard much about them.
What are we looking at comingout of this? Yeah, it's
Leo Shane (34:41):
it's gonna be interesting, because on top of
all those things you mentioned,there's just the the issue of
the deferred care, too. I mean,it's not just that VA has to
return to normal operations.
You've got to return to supernormal operations where all of
those all those cancerscreenings, all of those just
routine appointments and thosecheckups never I think they all
have to be made up for now. Andthere's going to be health
(35:02):
complications that come inthere. So there, again, it
changes from administration toadministration, this
administration seems veryfocused on building up VA more.
They're not talking aboutreducing folks, but they are
talking about a more, I guess, amore pro worker environment.
They're talking about moretelework capabilities, talking
(35:23):
about more telehealthcapabilities to talking about
maybe not the, the oldestablished thing. And I think,
you know, just a few years ago,these were these were kind of
unthinkable actions, not justnot just because of, you know,
stodgy old policies, but becauseof the technology available,
because what people know, Imean, you know, that the idea of
doing major, major corporatemeetings on Zoom was was unheard
(35:45):
of three years ago. And now it'scommonplace. So, you know, to
get the multiplier of moretelehealth to be able to say to
benefits processors, hey, Idon't know if I care if you come
in every day, but just come inon Friday and get your work
done. Maybe that creates more,maybe that creates more
efficiency. Maybe it doesn't.
And maybe we find a year fromnow that folks who could come
(36:07):
back yeah, just wanted to stayhome because they're feeling
lazier, it gets back to thatoversight. And as you know, VA
is not an easy, not an easydepartment have oversight, we're
talking 400,000 plus employees,we're talking about taking care
of, of 9 million veterans,that's before we get into all
the benefits and all the moneythat goes out the door. This is
just a massive unappreciatedagency, for most of the public,
(36:32):
and I, you know, as much as wetalk about it as much as the
VSOs scream about it. I don'tknow what it's going to take for
the public to start viewing VAthe same way it views DoD the
same way of views the Departmentof Education in terms of its
importance to the core ofAmerica,
Louis Celli (36:50):
well, we're coming up, kind of on the end of our
time, but I mean, there are somany issues that I want to make
sure that we touch on realquick, like some of the big
issues like, you know, burn pitsand the expansion of community
care, you know, where do you seethese things? Is there going to
be a huge fight over how much VAhas spent historically now on
community care, as opposed toeven three, four or five years
(37:11):
ago? And, you know, are we goingto need legislation for burn
pits? Or is VA just going tosolve it with administrative,
you know, decision making, How'sthat look?
Leo Shane (37:21):
Now we're gonna need legislation on burn pits. I
mean, that's, that seems clear,just just looking at the past,
VA will, will take some steps,but there's some stuff they're
going to have to be forced intouncomfortably. And, frankly,
there's cover and legislationand decisions that have to be
made this burn pits is going tobe the big issue this year. And
that's largely thanks toPresident Biden putting it in
the State of the Union address.
This is something that MilitaryTimes was writing about as far
(37:43):
back as 2008. Before my timewith company, we've all known
it's a problem. We all know, thehealth issues, the country is
finally going to have I believethe country is finally going to
have a good reckoning on thisthis year. And we'll see if that
means legislation on communitycare. That's going to be wrapped
up a lot. I think in the thecommission, I think that we'll
have some really interestingconversations about what does it
(38:05):
mean to co locate VA doctorswith private doctors? How does
this relationship work? How isthe money actually being spent?
You know, there's, there's avery big conversation to be had
about what are the standards toit's not just enough to say,
well, we need VA doctors to dothis. But if you go to a private
doctor, they can do whatever. SoCongress and VA have to come to
terms with how are they going toset standards for what care is
(38:28):
available? What are the accessstandards, one of the wait times
for private care so so they'reones and the other one that you
didn't mention, but I knowyou're thinking of his
caregivers, that's that's goingto be a nasty fight this year.
There's a lot of caregivers thatare being dropped off the VAs
program this fall, or actually,they won't be dropped off till
next year. But as we talk aboutthe burn pits issue, as we talk
(38:48):
about military families, Iexpect there to be a lot of
conversation about caregivers toexpect Congress to get involved
at some point and try and reinin some of the changes that are
being made to that program.
Dr. David Shulkin (39:01):
Hey, I think Leo, your predictions, your
thoughts, your yourunderstanding these issues are
really helpful. We reallyappreciate you being with us.
I'm gonna just wrap up with onefinal question. And that is this
invasion of Russia into Ukraine,I think has the potential for
(39:22):
changing everything in Americanpolitics and issues. Do you see
coming out of this, that theAmerican public is going to have
a renewed interest in themilitary, the US military and
veterans and that this will helpgalvanize some of that interest
that you've talked about intreating our veterans the right
(39:42):
way? Understanding that Americacan't retreat from the world
stage.
Leo Shane (39:48):
Yeah, let me let me put my my veterans community hat
on and say, Yes, I believe thatthat country will and will, you
know, there there'll be the youknow, this is obviously this is
this is a Conflict, like wehaven't seen in quite some time.
And there is, you know, it'sit's so connected to what the
world could be. And people areseeing horrible images for
(40:09):
Ukraine. So this, of course, isgoing to be something that gets
people more invested moreinvolved in the military and
more aware of the veteranscommunity. Let me take off my
veterans community hat and putmy reporter hat on and say no, I
mean, I, you know, we've seenthis before we've seen it's,
it's so like, I, the thing Ialways come back to with with
(40:29):
veterans issues is I know, theydon't affect a lot of folks
outside the veterans community.
But there's veterans living onyour street right now and
affects them that, you know,people this affects, and there
is a there is an empathy inthere. So I, you know, if if US
troops aren't directly involvedin Ukraine, I wonder if it will
amplify any message for the USmilitary, I actually think that
(40:52):
the burn pits issue may bebigger in terms of people
refocusing on what the militaryhas done, what the sacrifice has
been, then Ukraine, that's, ofcourse, being very hopeful that
US troops aren't pulled into thesituation Ukraine, and with
Russia acting as erratically asit is. That's the fear, right?
That's the fear. There's athere's 100,000 US troops in
(41:13):
Europe, there's very sensitiveareas, there's some folks that
are very close to the frontlinesof the fighting. Now, without
actually being in Ukraine. Itdoesn't take a lot of mistakes
for us all of a sudden to slideinto a world war. And God
forbid, I don't, as much as Ilove covering veterans, I don't
want to be creating more combatveterans with more wounds to
cover I want to be talking abouthow to fix all the ones that we
(41:34):
haven't dealt with yet andhopefully, lead to a future
where we're just dealing with,with old issues and folks coming
out of a peacetime militarywhere I can talk about those
education and those job trainingprograms that I'd like to write
about
Louis Celli (41:49):
Leo, as you drop the mic there. That's a perfect
place to end and I just, I can'tthank you enough for taking the
time to join us. This is reallythis has been one of our one of
our greater podcasts, and weappreciate having you on. And
that really is all the time thatwe have for this week. So
listen, join us next week. We'vegot a great podcast coming up.
(42:12):
We've got Kelly McKeague, thedirector of the defense pow Mia
accounting agency DPAA you'renot gonna want to miss this.
We'll see you next week.
Charlie Malone (42:24):
Thanks for listening to the policy. That's
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts. Go to policy. That'sdot org.
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