March 18, 2022 • 46 mins
MajGen (Ret.) Kelly McKeague, the Director of the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency speaks to the incredible work of recovery, remains, and identification that the DoD goes through to ensure no one is left behind.
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Episode Transcript
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Kelly McKeague (00:02):
every set of remains that comes into through
our doors hopefully will beassociated with an individual,
an American who made theultimate sacrifice. And for a
scientists, they connect withthese remains because again,
they are there to hopefully usetheir talent, their passion
(00:26):
toward identifying, and moreimportantly providing answers to
families.
Charlie Malone (00:36):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy that's
podcast engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theexecutive director of policy
that's Lou Celli. Today's guestKelly McKay, the director of the
(00:57):
defense pow Mia accountingagency.
Louis Celli (01:03):
Mr. Secretary, when you were a VA, I mean, you had
an opportunity to travel. Imean, all over the all over the
country. Did you ever get achance to to go to the defense
pow Mia, accounting agency outin Honolulu?
Dr. David Shulkin (01:17):
No, it's one of the things I never got a
chance to do. I knew about thegreat work that they're doing
with all verb commitment inMemorial affairs, but I never
got a chance to see that.
Louis Celli (01:29):
Yeah, many of the veteran service organizations do
an annual tour with with theirwith their leadership that comes
through every year. And one ofthe places where they stop as a
defense pow Mia accountingagency, and they do that in
conjunction with Pearl HarborDay. It's a moving event, you
know, Pearl Harbor Day, but thenhaving that visit, it just it
(01:50):
really brings home theimportance of reproof,
repatriating the, you know, thethe heroes that they gave their
lives in defense of this nationand seeing really the
devastation of the ship that wasbombed on the day that Pearl
Harbor was attacked. It reallyis. It's just immense.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:12):
I think one of the reasons I'm so glad we're
gonna do this podcast today, Louis because so many people don't
realize the efforts that takeplace behind the scenes. The
people who work in the DPAaren't well known by most
Americans, they don't understandwhat they're doing every day.
But this commitment to honorrespect, never to forget, to
(02:36):
continue to never give up onanybody, I think is what makes
the American military andfrankly, the culture or comfort
of our country so strong. And sohearing about what these people
do, and why they do it is is areally important story that
needs to be told.
Louis Celli (02:55):
And what's really fascinating as is as technology
improves our ability, not justto do this faster and better.
But to do this with suchprecision. So recently, and I
think we may hear this from fromour guests today. They went and
recovered all of the remainsfrom the graveyard that was
(03:18):
established right after thebombing of Pearl Harbor called
the called the Punchbowl, whichis a huge mass graveyard, right
there at Pearl Harbor. And itwas it was all of the remains of
the sailors and all of thebodies that they just couldn't
(03:38):
identify. They had no way oftelling who they were. And they
and they buried them rightthere. And recently, with all of
the advanced equipment that theyhave now they went through and
they recovered all those andnotified all those families.
Dr. David Shulkin (03:50):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think that I
think that the technology hasreally helped the DPA do a much
better job, especially sincetheir origins and Vietnam and
Korea. And when you get tounderstand how much better we
(04:11):
are, and making sure thateverybody's accounted for in our
more recent conflicts, I thinkpeople will be both surprised
and really pleased to hear aboutthe current state of affairs.
Louis Celli (04:23):
I know that a lot of our military history buffs
will already know this. Butwe've had conflicts all over the
world, Africa, Asia, and we'velost service members that, you
know, we're going back eventoday and still recovering. And
it's an important mission, andit's a mission that the United
States has taken seriously andcontinues to take seriously.
Dr. David Shulkin (04:46):
Well, I'm looking forward to hearing from
the director and I think peopleare going to be really
interested to hear what he hasto say.
Louis Celli (04:54):
Yeah, and I think there are a few people more
qualified to do this job. KellyMcKeague not only is the
director of DPA and has been hasbeen there since I think 2017.
But his last military assignmentspent 34 years in the Air Force
he he retired as a majorgeneral. And his last two
assignments were working at theDPA. So I think the agency is in
(05:14):
good hands, and I can't wait tobring them in.
Dr. David Shulkin (05:16):
Great. Let's get started.
Louis Celli (05:24):
General McKee, welcome to the policy. That's
podcast. Thanks so much forjoining us today.
Kelly McKeague (05:28):
Low it's a privilege for me to be part of
policy vets podcasts. Moreportly, congratulations to you
and Secretary Shulkin, for thetremendous success response that
your podcast gets, again, it'san honor and a privilege. Well,
Dr. David Shulkin (05:42):
thanks so much. And, you know, we're
really delighted to have you onour podcast today that DPA has
really done some amazing workover the past couple of years,
we know that you've been thedirector since 2017. But we want
to get your, your understandingyour sort of description of what
(06:03):
the DPA is and how it became afederal program in the first
place.
Kelly McKeague (06:08):
Mr. Secretary, it goes back to after the
Vietnam War, where this nationrecognize that there needed to
be a commitment toward findingits POWs, and Mia s. And since
then, it's expanded to theKorean War, the Cold War, as
well as World War Two, which wasadded in 2010. And over the
(06:30):
years, this commitment, nationalcommitment performed by the
Department of Defense has reallybeen emblematic of the values
that we as Americans share, thathere we are decades later, still
searching, still finding, andmore importantly, still
identifying missing Americanswho made the supreme sacrifice.
(06:54):
So our mission is bounded byWorld War Two, and Operation
Iraqi Freedom.
Louis Celli (06:59):
Kelly, you know, first of all, I've always wanted
a chance to say thank you, I'vebeen fortunate enough to have
visited your facility out inHonolulu a couple of times. And,
you know, without a doubt thatpart of our trip was always the
most inspiring, the mostimpactful, your staff and
particularly the researchersreally embraced their mission,
as do you. The intensity andenthusiasm really are always
(07:22):
very, very high. Is it hard tokeep that up?
Kelly McKeague (07:25):
Lou, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad
you saw that firsthand. There isno more purposeful mission, and
as a result for the privileged,military and civilian personnel
that are part of DPA. And theycome from all different skill
sets. We have scientists who areanthropologists and
archaeologists. We havehistorians, we have analysts,
(07:48):
Intel analysts, linguists,military EOD technicians, Navy
Corpsman, all coming together inthis very purposeful, very
unique mission for theDepartment of Defense. I've
never met more talented, moreprofessional, more passionate
individuals in my entire careerthan these men and women that
(08:11):
work for DPA. And so absolutelyis is not difficult to sustain,
if not advance the intensity andthe passion, the enthusiasm for
this mission.
Dr. David Shulkin (08:24):
Well tell us a little bit about these staff.
They do sound like amazingpeople. How many people are
they? Are they civilian? Arethey active duty? Are they
volunteers? How does it work?
Kelly McKeague (08:35):
Mr. Secretary, there are actually 725
individuals that work at DPAspread across the globe to
laboratories, one in Nebraska,one in Hawaii. About 55% are
civilian 45% are military. Themilitary come from the Army,
Navy, Air Force and MarineCorps. We also have contractors
(08:59):
that come from academia. Theseare scientists, these are
historians that augment the workat DPA. And then when we're
actually performing work in thefield, we go out to your
European Command into PacificCommand for what we call short
term individual augment tees.
And this is where there is agreat opportunity for us to
(09:22):
again reach out and augment thetalent these are particularly
high demand, low density careerfields, like Explosive Ordnance
Disposal divers, linguists, andthey come from all six services.
We even had our first space,Space Force individual that
(09:43):
helped us on a particularmission in I believe Southeast
Asia. And we've also had CoastGuard divers that have helped us
on underwater missions in theSouth Pacific. We also have
volunteers. These areindividuals whether they be
Former service members or evenveterans and civilians who
(10:04):
volunteer their time and talentsto contribute to this mission.
Louis Celli (10:11):
Well, DPA does a variety of things. And we're
gonna get into that. But, youknow, one of the things that I
found fascinating while I wasthere is that, you know, in
addition to your militarymission, you also help law
enforcement. Can you talk alittle bit about that?
Kelly McKeague (10:24):
Right, Lou, so as part of the defense support
to civil authorities, wheneverthere's a, an entity, government
entity that request assistancefrom the Department of Defense,
we a DPA are no different. Andthe two that readily come to
mind is after 911, we providedscientists who were
anthropologists, as well asotologist, forensic dentist to
(10:47):
assist the New York PoliceDepartment, as well as the New
York City medical examiner inthat noble work of searching for
and finding the remains of thosewho were killed in that tragic
in that tragedy. Later on, weassisted the government of
Indonesia, when there was thattsunami, whereby, again, because
(11:11):
of the tremendous loss of life,we were called upon to send
scientists, againanthropologists and otologist to
help the government ofIndonesia, in that humanitarian
response. We also have thecapability, in fact agreements
with the National TransportationSafety Board, that should there
be a mass casualty accident, weagain, would supply and provide
(11:37):
the scientists to help in thoserecovery and identification
efforts.
Dr. David Shulkin (11:43):
That certainly that certainly makes a
lot of sense. And it's terrificto know that those resources are
shared and made available. Iwant to go back to you had
mentioned in describing sort ofthe origins of the DPA about
Vietnam. And of course, thatprobably still is an a, you
(12:04):
know, time in history that mostpeople think about prisoners of
war and people missing anaction. Are there still
opportunities to do additionalrecoveries from Vietnam? And is
it possible that there stillcould be here who are people
that are being held there thatwe don't know about?
Kelly McKeague (12:26):
Mr. Secretary, when it comes to the Vietnam
War, it's the conflict thatwe've had the most research
done, the most that we knowabout the historical archives
that we have had access to. Andit's because we've been working
with Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia10 years after the war ended,
and those relationships havegrown over time. Right now with
(12:50):
Vietnam, we're working on our 36year. And it's something where
we normally have four JointField activities a year with
Vietnam. We have five with Laos.
In fact, cooperation on thismission by Vietnam predated the
reestablishment of diplomaticrelations between the United
(13:11):
States and Vietnam by 10 years.
And so again, we had have hadthe most experience most
research accomplish in Vietnam.
toward your question aboutcurrent p are their current
POWs, everything we have foundeverything we have seen
everything we have researchpoints to no credible evidence
(13:31):
of POWs in Vietnam or even inKorea, because that question
often comes up that are therestill prisoners of war from the
Korean War. And again, there hasbeen no credible evidence lended
leading us to believe that thereare live POWs that we do know of
both from the Korean War andVietnam War of defectors
(13:56):
deserters. And we do know thatthere are some of those and the
services. were tracking and havebeen tracking those individuals.
Dr. David Shulkin (14:07):
Now, you mentioned Vietnam and Laos. What
about North Korea? Is there anycooperation to try to find
these, the same type of, youknow, missing in action? And
would the North Koreans workwith us?
Kelly McKeague (14:28):
Secretary Shulkin This is probably the
biggest disappointment, at leastfor us in DPA and affect the
entire United States government.
There are 46 countries that wework with that cover the entire
globe. All of them readilycooperate with the United
States. In fact, many of themlook at this as a privilege to
(14:48):
cooperate on the United Stateswith the United States on this
humanitarian effort.
Regrettably, North Korea is theone outlier and It's vexing for
us from the standpoint that ofthe 7500 Mia is from the Korean
War 5700 are in North Korea. Andregrettably, this is something
(15:16):
that is affected by the vagariesof politics, geopolitics. And
more importantly, theintransigence of the North
Korean regime. In the early1990s, North Korea actually
turned over 208 boxes that theyhad recovered over the years. We
(15:37):
are still identifyingindividuals from those 208
boxes, it ended up turning outto be over 600 different
individuals, their DNA in those208 boxes. But this went on for
four years. And finally, we theUnited States government
approached the North Koreansback in the mid 1990s, and
asked, Can we cooperate can wework together on joint field
(16:02):
activities, and they allowed usin fact, we worked with North
Korea, the North Korean army for10 years from 1996 to 2005. And
in those 10 years, we found andidentified a number of service
members that were missing.
Regrettably, that was the lastfield activity in North Korea
(16:23):
that we have had. And so whenPresident Trump and Chairman Kim
met at the Singapore summit in2018, we were highly encouraged
by the fact that one of the fourcommitments made was the
repatriation as well as therecovery of missing Americans
from the Korean War. Thatresulted in 55 boxes, you may
(16:46):
recall that North Korea turnedover to United States, we have
identified 82 of thoseindividuals, we believe there
are 250 separate DNA sequencesin those 55 boxes, and of the
82. In addition to the 82 thatwe've identified, we all have
(17:08):
also repatriated 80 remains tothe South Koreans that we
believe to be of South Koreanorigin. We were allowed by the
United States government toengage directly with a North
Korean army. We did so on twooccasions, actually at the DMZ.
And again, regrettably, the lastcommunication we have had with
(17:30):
North Korea was in March of2019. We always looked at it as
a humanitarian endeavor. Theyall regrettably, have looked at
it as wanting, knowing that thiswas important to the United
States wanting something inreturn, which our government
rightfully was not willing togive.
Louis Celli (17:53):
Let's talk a little bit about how you, in fact,
identify remains. I mean, I've,again, I've been to your
facility, I've seen how they layeverything out, and I was I was
just amazed at some of theequipment, I'm going to get it
wrong. It was like a gasspectrometer or something, just,
you know, ways of identifyingDNA. I know a lot of our
listeners watch things like theForensic Files and CSI and, you
(18:16):
know, that type of cutting edgetechnologies. Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Kelly McKeague (18:19):
It's interesting you say that, Lou, because for
us in DPA, we would welcome theopportunity to solve some of
these cases as CSI analysts andscientists do in the 50 minute
program. But regrettably, someof these cases take months if
not years to resolve because theremains have been exposed to the
elements. In some cases, they'vebeen treated with formaldehyde
(18:42):
for those unknowns that we arealso privileged to be able to
exude, and more importantly, tryto identify. Our scientists are
extremely talented. In fact,they're world renowned. They
come from various lines ofspecialties. I mentioned
anthropology, I mentionedarchaeology. But we also have
(19:05):
forensic dentist and we havematerial evidence specialists
and these individuals worklooking for seven lines of
evidence. DNA is one thatreadily comes to mind. They
utilize three sets of DNA,different DNA, and then we work
hand in glove with our partnersat the Armed Forces DNA
(19:26):
identification laboratory atDover Air Force Base. They're
the ones who actually usecutting edge technology. And
they are well world renowned,having patented several
techniques and technologies overthe years. But our scientists
also use dental comparisons.
They use chest X rays, yourclavicle is as unique as a
(19:47):
fingerprint. And if they have aclavicle that we have recovered,
they can take a picture of thatand compare it against the X ray
The service member had when hefirst entered the service. And
so these various seven lines ofevidence all work together
toward what we hope to be theidentification of a missing
(20:10):
service members service member.
And because of that, we spare noexpense in terms of advancing
the technology. We also startedusing something called isotope
testing, and analysis. And whatthis is, is what you eat and
(20:31):
drink as a as a baby, or even asa young as a young adult, marks
you for the rest of your life.
And with the isotope analysis,if we were to take an isotope
sample, compare it against whatwe call ice escapes, which are
isotope maps, we can literallydifferentiate where you grew up.
(20:52):
And whether that be the Midwest,the northeast, or even a foreign
country. We can ascertain whereyou were growing up, in which
case, this becomes notnecessarily line of evidence,
but it becomes a what we call anexclusionary point where we can
exclude certain individuals, andthen focus on the more
(21:15):
expensive, more time consumingDNA testing.
Dr. David Shulkin (21:20):
Do you think there's ever going to be a time
that DPA can say that they havefound or they know a reasonable
explanation for everyone who'smissing an action? Or do you
think that this mission is onethat just is going to continue
forever?
Kelly McKeague (21:37):
Mr. Secretary?
Regrettably, the short answer isno. From the standpoint that our
two biggest enemies are time andnumbers time from the standpoint
that 66 decades seven eightdecades or have passed, and
these remains again exposed tothe elements are degrading in
some cases dependent upon thesoil conditions. But numbers is
(21:59):
our biggest enemy. From thestandpoint that of the
81,000 81,000 Emi as from WorldWar Two through Operation Iraqi
Freedom, we estimate 38,000 tobe recoverable. What I mean by
that is for those deepwater, andthis when I say deepwater,
(22:20):
beyond 1000, foot depth, ships,aircraft, submarines, those are
we considered non recoverablebecause, again, we don't we lack
the technology with which to beable to find, and more
importantly, recover thoseremains. But the 38,000 is a
daunting number, particularlyfrom the standpoint that our
(22:45):
capacity and capabilitycurrently allows us to identify
around 200 a year. And you cansee that at 200 a year trying to
get to 38,000. It is a steephill to climb. But one that we
are not daunted. We are notdeterred by one that allows us
(23:07):
to again, still focus on theabilities and capabilities, we
have to be able to bring answerslong sought answers to families
that have waited for decades.
And so we don't see this missionending as much as it is
(23:28):
continuing from the standpointof working to provide the
fullest possible accounting tofamilies and more importantly,
their their loved one. And forus, this fullest possible
accounting takes differentforms. Obviously, the ultimate
answer is the identification andrepatriation of a set of remains
(23:50):
to a family. But in some cases,our scientists are historians
may reach a point where we'vedone everything humanly
possible, and there is noevidence of that individual
being at that particular site.
In that case, that analyticaldetermination is what reaches
the fullest possible accounting,not the answer that they want.
(24:11):
But one that they know that thisgovernment, this United States,
our nation, did everythingpossible to try to find their
loved one? Well,
Louis Celli (24:21):
in order to do that, your team doesn't just go
to, you know, to Laos and toVietnam. You go all over the
world, isn't that right?
Kelly McKeague (24:30):
Absolutely. Lou, I mentioned earlier that we work
with 46 countries, countries inEurope, countries in all over
Asia, as well as the SouthPacific, essentially wherever an
American fell in combat pain,the ultimate sacrifice for his
nation. And so, again, we sentteams to the sub Himalayan
(24:53):
altitudes of India. We sentteams to the jungles of Vietnam,
the beaches Have Tarawa in theisland nation of cure Bosch, and
even the battlefields of Europe.
This very day, we have a team inSicily, working at a BT 24 crash
site. We have a team inThailand. And we even have a
(25:14):
team in the Northern Marianas USterritory on an underwater
mission. So again, these men andwomen deploy for 45 to 60 days,
depending upon the complexity ofthe case. I mentioned earlier
that we augment our teams withindividual augment tees from all
(25:35):
six services that contributecritical skill sets to help us
execute an investigation orrecovery.
Dr. David Shulkin (25:45):
Do our allies and their governments have
efforts that are similar to theDPA? Or is this unique American
commitment?
Kelly McKeague (25:56):
Mr. Secretary, it's almost unique. One would
think that countries that weshare western values would have
a similar scope and magnitude ofeffort. But for countries like
the United Kingdom, Australia,Canada, theirs is a reactive
posture, from the standpointthat they do have small
(26:19):
elemental units, that shouldsomeone tell them that they
found what they believe to bethe remains of that particular
country, then they will sendthis small element the nettle
Netherlands is probably one thatcomes to mind from the
standpoint of, of having verygood capability. But again, in a
more reactive posture. TheRepublic of Korea, South Korea
(26:43):
comes close to the United Statesin terms of its commitment, its
breath and depth of this missionfor the South Koreans. They're
still looking for 300,000Missing South Koreans from the
Korean War. They came to us backin 2001 asked us to help them
set up a similar capability.
We've done that. And it isreally eye watering to see what
(27:07):
the South Koreans have done isprobably not probably it is our
most robust joint partnershipthat we have with our South
Korean counterparts. We conductjoint missions, investigations
and recoveries, they have foundAmericans over the years we have
found South Koreans, we'verepatriated our war dead to each
other. And then the other onethat's interesting is Japan.
(27:32):
Japan actually uses nongovernmental organizations and
they scour the battlefields ofthe South Pacific, and Asia,
Japan is still looking for600,000 of its missing service
members. And what's unique aboutJapan is until recently, if
Japan found remains that theybelieve to be of Japanese
(27:56):
origin, they would cremate theremains on site, and then take
the ashes back to Japan.
problematic for us from thestandpoint that if there are
Kollek colocated losses, wewould not want the inadvertent
destruction of American remains.
So we have worked closely withthe Japanese Government for
1015 15 years actually, andfinally got a law changed. That
(28:20):
now requires them their teams tohave forensic reviews
accomplished at the recoverysite, before the remains are
cremated, which is a hugechange. But once again, that
speaks to the noble intentionsand mission that finding our
(28:41):
respective war did has.
Dr. David Shulkin (28:46):
I just wanted to ask you about some of these
46 countries. Obviously, many ofour listeners are very
interested in the more recentcountries where we've had
conflict in Iraq and Afghanistanin particular, are we able to
have active efforts underway andboth of those countries
Kelly McKeague (29:07):
Secretary Shulkin This is actually a good
news story from the standpointthat we over the years have
improved what we termed to bepersonnel recovery. This is
where we actually recover thefallen soldier, sailor, airman
or marine after the battle. Now,the numbers drop precipitously
(29:30):
from the standpoint that 72,000missing from World War Two,
Korea 7500 As I mentioned,Vietnam 1600 and it drops even
further after that. For currentconflicts, relatively current
conflicts. There are only sixindividuals that are missing
(29:52):
from Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Few contractors as well asservice members Here's what's I
think this is absolutelyphenomenal, Operation Enduring
Freedom. In Afghanistan, whenyou consider 20 years of
conflict, in far flung places inremote places, the number of
(30:13):
missing inaction from OperationEnduring Freedom is zero. Not a
single American is Mia, from theAfghanistan War, which is
absolutely incredible. Butagain, it speaks to the
service's commitment towardcombat search and rescue, toward
(30:35):
personnel recovery, to ensurethat no matter what the cost, no
matter what the circumstances,no American servicemembers lost
in Afghanistan was left behind,I find that absolutely
incredible. I want
Louis Celli (30:54):
to take you back for a minute to to the North
Korea and the 55 bucks as aremains, because that was a bit
of a watershed moment at, youknow, at the moment, at the time
that they were transferred overto the United States. And And
this speaks, I think, directlyto the skill set of your team,
being able to identify not onlythe fact of whether it's a human
(31:18):
remain or not, but what regionthat the, you know, that the
deceased lived in what theirdiet was, can and can you talk a
little bit about what wasactually in those boxes? And is
there anything left still yet todiscover?
Kelly McKeague (31:33):
Right, Lou, so you know, as I mentioned, the 55
boxes was a watershed event, andone that we thought would
reinvigorate our relationshipwith North Korea, but more
importantly, re starting, ourability to recover remains
inside North Korea. 55 boxesactually turned out to be the
(31:57):
DNA of 250 individuals. Therewere no complete skeletons in
the boxes, they consisted ofindividual bones, I think the
the most that we had for anindividual was for bones
associated with that particularindividual. But our scientists
were and were able to sortthrough all the remains, and
(32:20):
differentiate, again, throughDNA testing, isotope analysis,
the fact that they represented250 separate individuals. As I
mentioned earlier, werepatriated 80 of those remains
to the South Koreans. But here'swhat's, what's fascinating about
(32:40):
this work, is the fact thatevery single set of those
remains and to date we haveidentified at to represent an
American represent an Americanwho made the supreme sacrifice,
and also a family whose grievingwere was exacerbated by years of
(33:00):
uncertainty. There was only one,what we call material evidence
that was associated, in otherwords, a personal effect that
was associated with anindividual and this happened to
be a set of dog tags. Now theremains when our scientists
actually flew into North Korea,on a C 17. To take possession of
(33:21):
those 55 boxes. The NorthKoreans were actually did this
very well, they actually had oneach box where the remains were
recovered from. And it Thisturned out to be when are
historians compared? What thescientists determined to be a
particularly individual that itwas where the North Korean said
(33:44):
that they recovered it from butI mentioned the the unique
stories that every one of thesemissing Americans have. I
remember the firstidentification made from those
boxes. It turned out the mastersergeant who actually was a
veteran of World War Two, MasterSergeant Charles McDaniel, who
was from Indiana. He had twosons, who were, I believe, two
(34:04):
and five, when their dad wentmissing in North Korea. And he
was a medic, Army medic, when weidentify Charles McDaniel, and
again, he was the first from the55 boxes. The one material
evidence that was related to himassociated with him was his dog
tags. And wouldn't you know, hisoldest son was a army retired
(34:29):
Army chaplain. And it was, itwas so gratifying for us because
here's this retired Armychaplain who told us, you know,
for years he was the one counts,consoling families who lost
loved ones in Iraq andAfghanistan. And now he was
being consoled. Absolutelyphenomenal when you think about
(34:53):
the fact that this nation doeswhat it does to the degree that
it does, and does it so well.
Dr. David Shulkin (35:00):
That is amazing. Thank you,
Louis Celli (35:01):
we're getting ready to run out of time. Before we
go, I think what's reallyimportant to share for our
listeners who haven't had thehonor of being able to visit
your facility, is you walkthrough the hallways, you know,
just the hallways where yourscientists work and walk back
and forth to the break room. Andin and out of the building. Up
(35:22):
on the wall, there are someposters, and they've got names
and faces. And can you tell us alittle bit about those?
Kelly McKeague (35:27):
Sure. So you know, Louis, this is something
that that seizes every singleone of us from the standpoint
that we know that every set ofremains that comes into through
our doors, hopefully will beassociated with an individual,
an American who made theultimate sacrifice. And for
(35:51):
scientists, they connect withthese remains, because again,
they are there to hopefully usetheir talent, their passion,
toward identifying, and moreimportantly, providing answers
to families. So they becomeclose. And so you know, the
(36:12):
poster you're referring to wasone of from the battle of
Tarawa. So we have an activeproject in Tarawa, where it was
a bloody battle where theMarines lost hundreds of
individuals, and there are stilla number of them still missing.
So our scientists put together aposter and on the poster is a
(36:35):
picture wartime picture of everysingle missing marine or sailor
from the battle of Tarawa. Andwhen they're identified, that
creates such a joy, such arelief, that they recognize that
identification on this poster.
One that comes to mind is one ofthe early identifications from
(36:56):
from Tarawa was LieutenantAlexander bondman, who was a
recipient of the CongressionalMedal of Honor. Tenant Bonnie
Minh was from Knoxville,Tennessee. He had a daughter,
who was one year old when hewent off to combat and was lost
in the Battle of Tarawa. Hisdaughter actually, is her name.
(37:18):
She's named after her fatherAlexandra. And she actually came
out to Hawaii, she actuallylived on Maui. And so when these
remains were brought back fromTarawa, there were 34 of them.
And Lieutenant Bonnie man hadvery, very unique dental work,
(37:39):
and so are scientists whorecovered him knew who he was,
but he wasn't formallyidentified. And so here are 34
transfer cases, all draped withthe American flag. Laying in a
hangar at Hickam Air Force Basein Honolulu. We knew who which
(38:00):
of the 34 belong to LieutenantBonnie men. And so after the
ceremony that the Marine Corpsran, we told Alexandra, this is
your dad, at what a heartwrenching heart warming
opportunity to see her she had alay. And she placed the lay on
her father's transfer case.
(38:24):
Didn't remember her fatherbecause she was one year old.
But again, it just speaks to howpassionate how incredibly
enthusiastic dedicated. Anyoneassociated with this mission can
be an is because of stories likethat.
Charlie Malone (38:40):
General mcag I hope you don't mind the
interruption. Charlie Malonehere, I'm just in the
background. I'm wondering as aretired naval officer about Davy
Jones locker is that 1000 footdepth limit really
insurmountable.
Kelly McKeague (38:54):
Charlie, our limit right now because of
technology is about 150 feet.
And so any ship or any submarineor even aircraft beyond that is
is outside of our reach. Now,having said that, we do have a
case here coming up in thesummer, in off the coast of Papa
New Guinea, where we areactually diving because the Navy
(39:18):
actually has a capability calledsaturation dive. And this
capability allows them thedivers to reach depths of 1000
feet, and more importantly, staydown below for hours and not
have to worry aboutdecompression. And so we're very
excited about what this mightdo. And so it's a it's a bomber
(39:40):
called heaven can wait. It isagain 1000 feet depth, and one
that we're hopeful that shouldthis mission succeed. It surely
opens up and expands our reachour capability and more
important our opportunity tolook for aircraft ships
(40:01):
submarines at lower depths, youfind it interesting that we
actually are going to have tolook at this with with the Navy
because for the Navy, and youknow this, they look at this as
their final resting place. Andso every time we come across a
(40:22):
Navy vessel, whether it be aship or submarine or aircraft,
we always need permission fromthe Navy to do this. And so we
had done this on a Corsair. Thatwas an airman naval aviator who
was part of President Bush'ssquadron that flew off the San
Jacinto. And he, we actuallyfound his remains. But again,
(40:48):
that was about 125 feet. But thesaturation dive mission that's
coming up. We're very excitedabout it, because there are 11,
airman, US Army Air Forces,airmen that are missing on
heaven can wait, bomber. And sowe're hopeful that they'll find
something and more portly, openup the capabilities and
(41:09):
opportunities.
Dr. David Shulkin (41:11):
Kelly, it's really amazing the work that
you're doing, and you talk aboutthe motivation for this, but
behind every person that youidentify is a story. These are
real people with people who careabout them and love them. So can
you tell us about anybody inparticular, a certain example of
(41:34):
where this work really wasimpactful to you,
Kelly McKeague (41:37):
Mr. Secretary, you hit the nail on the head.
Every one of these missingAmericans has such a unique
story. And those stories arepassed down from generation to
generation. I mentioned earlierabout the story of Master
Sergeant McDaniel, and how histwo sons received the ultimate
answer from their father goingmissing when they're young boys.
Another one that comes to mindand there are literally
(41:59):
hundreds, but one that comes tomind is a story of Captain
Lawrence Dixon, who was aTuskegee Airman, and a member of
the famed unit that fought inWorld War Two. He was a p 38.
Mustang pilot. He was from theBronx, New York when he went off
to combat. He was on his secondto the last mission. Before he
(42:24):
was completing his tour ofcombat, to come back to the
United States and crashed andwas missing for many years. Due
to the help of some localhistorians who got together with
our historians, we were able topinpoint the site turned out to
be a crash site near theAustrian Italian border. And so
(42:50):
we have partner privatepartnerships. In fact, we have
115 of them with universitiesand non governmental
organizations throughout theworld. We worked with the
University of New Orleans withthe University of Innsbruck on a
field school, an actualexcavation using graduate
students of anthropology. Andwouldn't you know, not only do
(43:11):
they find remains, but they findhis wedding ring, and they find
his harmonica. He was anaccomplished jazz musician, and
obviously could not take his histrumpet into the P 38. Mustang.
But he had a harmonica. And sohis daughter Marlo was two years
(43:32):
old when her dead, went off tocombat and did not come home.
Marla now is a mother has fourchildren of her own adult
children. I just distinctlyremember being at the funeral at
Arlington National Cemetery forthis Tuskegee Airmen, the first
of 27 that we recovered andidentified and Marla wouldn't
(43:53):
you know, had her dad's weddingring around her neck on a
necklace. Absolutely motionalabsolutely gratifying and more
importantly, joyful for theDixon Andrews family. But more
importantly for the Army, AirCorps, Tuskegee Airmen and the
nation. But again, just oneexample of hundreds
Louis Celli (44:16):
general monkey I can't thank you enough for being
here. This. This is really animportant episode. I think our
listeners are going to be bevery riveted to to listening
about the mission of the DPA.
Thank you so much for being herethat that's about all the time
that we have for today. Is thereanything that we may have missed
that you'd like to say before weleave
Kelly McKeague (44:37):
low Secretary Shulkin thank you again for the
opportunity to be a part of yourpodcasts. What you're doing for
veterans and keeping themapprised informed is
extraordinary. And it's also agratifying for us and DPA that
you took the time and moreportly allowed us to talk about
this mission. I would just sayone thing that This national
(45:01):
commitment is one that speaks toAmerica's values. It's one that
is symbolized by as you know,the iconic black and white pow
Mia flag, which flies with thewords you are not forgotten, and
that you are not forgotten isexactly why this nation through
(45:24):
this department of defense doeswhat it does every single day to
ensure that families areprovided answers, but more
importantly, that our servicemembers who are missing are
afforded that opportunity to befound, and more portly, to
return home. Thank you again toboth of you.
Louis Celli (45:43):
Great, thank you.
Goodbye. And that is it. That'sall the time that we have for
this week. Join us next week.
We've got a really interestingepisode with Judge Haley
Weinstein. She's a circuit ShortCircuit Judge out of Baltimore
who started a veteran'streatment court. You're going to
want to hear her journey, howshe got there, and what's
happening now. We'll see younext week.
Charlie Malone (46:08):
Thanks for listening to the policy bits
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts. Go to policy. That'sdot org.
every set of remains that comes into through
our doors hopefully will beassociated with an individual,
an American who made theultimate sacrifice. And for a
scientists, they connect withthese remains because again,
they are there to hopefully usetheir talent, their passion
(00:26):
toward identifying, and moreimportantly providing answers to
families.
Charlie Malone (00:36):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy that's
podcast engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill a void in support of PolicyDevelopment for America's
veterans. With your host, formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theexecutive director of policy
that's Lou Celli. Today's guestKelly McKay, the director of the
(00:57):
defense pow Mia accountingagency.
Louis Celli (01:03):
Mr. Secretary, when you were a VA, I mean, you had
an opportunity to travel. Imean, all over the all over the
country. Did you ever get achance to to go to the defense
pow Mia, accounting agency outin Honolulu?
Dr. David Shulkin (01:17):
No, it's one of the things I never got a
chance to do. I knew about thegreat work that they're doing
with all verb commitment inMemorial affairs, but I never
got a chance to see that.
Louis Celli (01:29):
Yeah, many of the veteran service organizations do
an annual tour with with theirwith their leadership that comes
through every year. And one ofthe places where they stop as a
defense pow Mia accountingagency, and they do that in
conjunction with Pearl HarborDay. It's a moving event, you
know, Pearl Harbor Day, but thenhaving that visit, it just it
(01:50):
really brings home theimportance of reproof,
repatriating the, you know, thethe heroes that they gave their
lives in defense of this nationand seeing really the
devastation of the ship that wasbombed on the day that Pearl
Harbor was attacked. It reallyis. It's just immense.
Dr. David Shulkin (02:12):
I think one of the reasons I'm so glad we're
gonna do this podcast today, Louis because so many people don't
realize the efforts that takeplace behind the scenes. The
people who work in the DPAaren't well known by most
Americans, they don't understandwhat they're doing every day.
But this commitment to honorrespect, never to forget, to
(02:36):
continue to never give up onanybody, I think is what makes
the American military andfrankly, the culture or comfort
of our country so strong. And sohearing about what these people
do, and why they do it is is areally important story that
needs to be told.
Louis Celli (02:55):
And what's really fascinating as is as technology
improves our ability, not justto do this faster and better.
But to do this with suchprecision. So recently, and I
think we may hear this from fromour guests today. They went and
recovered all of the remainsfrom the graveyard that was
(03:18):
established right after thebombing of Pearl Harbor called
the called the Punchbowl, whichis a huge mass graveyard, right
there at Pearl Harbor. And itwas it was all of the remains of
the sailors and all of thebodies that they just couldn't
(03:38):
identify. They had no way oftelling who they were. And they
and they buried them rightthere. And recently, with all of
the advanced equipment that theyhave now they went through and
they recovered all those andnotified all those families.
Dr. David Shulkin (03:50):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think that I
think that the technology hasreally helped the DPA do a much
better job, especially sincetheir origins and Vietnam and
Korea. And when you get tounderstand how much better we
(04:11):
are, and making sure thateverybody's accounted for in our
more recent conflicts, I thinkpeople will be both surprised
and really pleased to hear aboutthe current state of affairs.
Louis Celli (04:23):
I know that a lot of our military history buffs
will already know this. Butwe've had conflicts all over the
world, Africa, Asia, and we'velost service members that, you
know, we're going back eventoday and still recovering. And
it's an important mission, andit's a mission that the United
States has taken seriously andcontinues to take seriously.
Dr. David Shulkin (04:46):
Well, I'm looking forward to hearing from
the director and I think peopleare going to be really
interested to hear what he hasto say.
Louis Celli (04:54):
Yeah, and I think there are a few people more
qualified to do this job. KellyMcKeague not only is the
director of DPA and has been hasbeen there since I think 2017.
But his last military assignmentspent 34 years in the Air Force
he he retired as a majorgeneral. And his last two
assignments were working at theDPA. So I think the agency is in
(05:14):
good hands, and I can't wait tobring them in.
Dr. David Shulkin (05:16):
Great. Let's get started.
Louis Celli (05:24):
General McKee, welcome to the policy. That's
podcast. Thanks so much forjoining us today.
Kelly McKeague (05:28):
Low it's a privilege for me to be part of
policy vets podcasts. Moreportly, congratulations to you
and Secretary Shulkin, for thetremendous success response that
your podcast gets, again, it'san honor and a privilege. Well,
Dr. David Shulkin (05:42):
thanks so much. And, you know, we're
really delighted to have you onour podcast today that DPA has
really done some amazing workover the past couple of years,
we know that you've been thedirector since 2017. But we want
to get your, your understandingyour sort of description of what
(06:03):
the DPA is and how it became afederal program in the first
place.
Kelly McKeague (06:08):
Mr. Secretary, it goes back to after the
Vietnam War, where this nationrecognize that there needed to
be a commitment toward findingits POWs, and Mia s. And since
then, it's expanded to theKorean War, the Cold War, as
well as World War Two, which wasadded in 2010. And over the
(06:30):
years, this commitment, nationalcommitment performed by the
Department of Defense has reallybeen emblematic of the values
that we as Americans share, thathere we are decades later, still
searching, still finding, andmore importantly, still
identifying missing Americanswho made the supreme sacrifice.
(06:54):
So our mission is bounded byWorld War Two, and Operation
Iraqi Freedom.
Louis Celli (06:59):
Kelly, you know, first of all, I've always wanted
a chance to say thank you, I'vebeen fortunate enough to have
visited your facility out inHonolulu a couple of times. And,
you know, without a doubt thatpart of our trip was always the
most inspiring, the mostimpactful, your staff and
particularly the researchersreally embraced their mission,
as do you. The intensity andenthusiasm really are always
(07:22):
very, very high. Is it hard tokeep that up?
Kelly McKeague (07:25):
Lou, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad
you saw that firsthand. There isno more purposeful mission, and
as a result for the privileged,military and civilian personnel
that are part of DPA. And theycome from all different skill
sets. We have scientists who areanthropologists and
archaeologists. We havehistorians, we have analysts,
(07:48):
Intel analysts, linguists,military EOD technicians, Navy
Corpsman, all coming together inthis very purposeful, very
unique mission for theDepartment of Defense. I've
never met more talented, moreprofessional, more passionate
individuals in my entire careerthan these men and women that
(08:11):
work for DPA. And so absolutelyis is not difficult to sustain,
if not advance the intensity andthe passion, the enthusiasm for
this mission.
Dr. David Shulkin (08:24):
Well tell us a little bit about these staff.
They do sound like amazingpeople. How many people are
they? Are they civilian? Arethey active duty? Are they
volunteers? How does it work?
Kelly McKeague (08:35):
Mr. Secretary, there are actually 725
individuals that work at DPAspread across the globe to
laboratories, one in Nebraska,one in Hawaii. About 55% are
civilian 45% are military. Themilitary come from the Army,
Navy, Air Force and MarineCorps. We also have contractors
(08:59):
that come from academia. Theseare scientists, these are
historians that augment the workat DPA. And then when we're
actually performing work in thefield, we go out to your
European Command into PacificCommand for what we call short
term individual augment tees.
And this is where there is agreat opportunity for us to
(09:22):
again reach out and augment thetalent these are particularly
high demand, low density careerfields, like Explosive Ordnance
Disposal divers, linguists, andthey come from all six services.
We even had our first space,Space Force individual that
(09:43):
helped us on a particularmission in I believe Southeast
Asia. And we've also had CoastGuard divers that have helped us
on underwater missions in theSouth Pacific. We also have
volunteers. These areindividuals whether they be
Former service members or evenveterans and civilians who
(10:04):
volunteer their time and talentsto contribute to this mission.
Louis Celli (10:11):
Well, DPA does a variety of things. And we're
gonna get into that. But, youknow, one of the things that I
found fascinating while I wasthere is that, you know, in
addition to your militarymission, you also help law
enforcement. Can you talk alittle bit about that?
Kelly McKeague (10:24):
Right, Lou, so as part of the defense support
to civil authorities, wheneverthere's a, an entity, government
entity that request assistancefrom the Department of Defense,
we a DPA are no different. Andthe two that readily come to
mind is after 911, we providedscientists who were
anthropologists, as well asotologist, forensic dentist to
(10:47):
assist the New York PoliceDepartment, as well as the New
York City medical examiner inthat noble work of searching for
and finding the remains of thosewho were killed in that tragic
in that tragedy. Later on, weassisted the government of
Indonesia, when there was thattsunami, whereby, again, because
(11:11):
of the tremendous loss of life,we were called upon to send
scientists, againanthropologists and otologist to
help the government ofIndonesia, in that humanitarian
response. We also have thecapability, in fact agreements
with the National TransportationSafety Board, that should there
be a mass casualty accident, weagain, would supply and provide
(11:37):
the scientists to help in thoserecovery and identification
efforts.
Dr. David Shulkin (11:43):
That certainly that certainly makes a
lot of sense. And it's terrificto know that those resources are
shared and made available. Iwant to go back to you had
mentioned in describing sort ofthe origins of the DPA about
Vietnam. And of course, thatprobably still is an a, you
(12:04):
know, time in history that mostpeople think about prisoners of
war and people missing anaction. Are there still
opportunities to do additionalrecoveries from Vietnam? And is
it possible that there stillcould be here who are people
that are being held there thatwe don't know about?
Kelly McKeague (12:26):
Mr. Secretary, when it comes to the Vietnam
War, it's the conflict thatwe've had the most research
done, the most that we knowabout the historical archives
that we have had access to. Andit's because we've been working
with Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia10 years after the war ended,
and those relationships havegrown over time. Right now with
(12:50):
Vietnam, we're working on our 36year. And it's something where
we normally have four JointField activities a year with
Vietnam. We have five with Laos.
In fact, cooperation on thismission by Vietnam predated the
reestablishment of diplomaticrelations between the United
(13:11):
States and Vietnam by 10 years.
And so again, we had have hadthe most experience most
research accomplish in Vietnam.
toward your question aboutcurrent p are their current
POWs, everything we have foundeverything we have seen
everything we have researchpoints to no credible evidence
(13:31):
of POWs in Vietnam or even inKorea, because that question
often comes up that are therestill prisoners of war from the
Korean War. And again, there hasbeen no credible evidence lended
leading us to believe that thereare live POWs that we do know of
both from the Korean War andVietnam War of defectors
(13:56):
deserters. And we do know thatthere are some of those and the
services. were tracking and havebeen tracking those individuals.
Dr. David Shulkin (14:07):
Now, you mentioned Vietnam and Laos. What
about North Korea? Is there anycooperation to try to find
these, the same type of, youknow, missing in action? And
would the North Koreans workwith us?
Kelly McKeague (14:28):
Secretary Shulkin This is probably the
biggest disappointment, at leastfor us in DPA and affect the
entire United States government.
There are 46 countries that wework with that cover the entire
globe. All of them readilycooperate with the United
States. In fact, many of themlook at this as a privilege to
(14:48):
cooperate on the United Stateswith the United States on this
humanitarian effort.
Regrettably, North Korea is theone outlier and It's vexing for
us from the standpoint that ofthe 7500 Mia is from the Korean
War 5700 are in North Korea. Andregrettably, this is something
(15:16):
that is affected by the vagariesof politics, geopolitics. And
more importantly, theintransigence of the North
Korean regime. In the early1990s, North Korea actually
turned over 208 boxes that theyhad recovered over the years. We
(15:37):
are still identifyingindividuals from those 208
boxes, it ended up turning outto be over 600 different
individuals, their DNA in those208 boxes. But this went on for
four years. And finally, we theUnited States government
approached the North Koreansback in the mid 1990s, and
asked, Can we cooperate can wework together on joint field
(16:02):
activities, and they allowed usin fact, we worked with North
Korea, the North Korean army for10 years from 1996 to 2005. And
in those 10 years, we found andidentified a number of service
members that were missing.
Regrettably, that was the lastfield activity in North Korea
(16:23):
that we have had. And so whenPresident Trump and Chairman Kim
met at the Singapore summit in2018, we were highly encouraged
by the fact that one of the fourcommitments made was the
repatriation as well as therecovery of missing Americans
from the Korean War. Thatresulted in 55 boxes, you may
(16:46):
recall that North Korea turnedover to United States, we have
identified 82 of thoseindividuals, we believe there
are 250 separate DNA sequencesin those 55 boxes, and of the
82. In addition to the 82 thatwe've identified, we all have
(17:08):
also repatriated 80 remains tothe South Koreans that we
believe to be of South Koreanorigin. We were allowed by the
United States government toengage directly with a North
Korean army. We did so on twooccasions, actually at the DMZ.
And again, regrettably, the lastcommunication we have had with
(17:30):
North Korea was in March of2019. We always looked at it as
a humanitarian endeavor. Theyall regrettably, have looked at
it as wanting, knowing that thiswas important to the United
States wanting something inreturn, which our government
rightfully was not willing togive.
Louis Celli (17:53):
Let's talk a little bit about how you, in fact,
identify remains. I mean, I've,again, I've been to your
facility, I've seen how they layeverything out, and I was I was
just amazed at some of theequipment, I'm going to get it
wrong. It was like a gasspectrometer or something, just,
you know, ways of identifyingDNA. I know a lot of our
listeners watch things like theForensic Files and CSI and, you
(18:16):
know, that type of cutting edgetechnologies. Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Kelly McKeague (18:19):
It's interesting you say that, Lou, because for
us in DPA, we would welcome theopportunity to solve some of
these cases as CSI analysts andscientists do in the 50 minute
program. But regrettably, someof these cases take months if
not years to resolve because theremains have been exposed to the
elements. In some cases, they'vebeen treated with formaldehyde
(18:42):
for those unknowns that we arealso privileged to be able to
exude, and more importantly, tryto identify. Our scientists are
extremely talented. In fact,they're world renowned. They
come from various lines ofspecialties. I mentioned
anthropology, I mentionedarchaeology. But we also have
(19:05):
forensic dentist and we havematerial evidence specialists
and these individuals worklooking for seven lines of
evidence. DNA is one thatreadily comes to mind. They
utilize three sets of DNA,different DNA, and then we work
hand in glove with our partnersat the Armed Forces DNA
(19:26):
identification laboratory atDover Air Force Base. They're
the ones who actually usecutting edge technology. And
they are well world renowned,having patented several
techniques and technologies overthe years. But our scientists
also use dental comparisons.
They use chest X rays, yourclavicle is as unique as a
(19:47):
fingerprint. And if they have aclavicle that we have recovered,
they can take a picture of thatand compare it against the X ray
The service member had when hefirst entered the service. And
so these various seven lines ofevidence all work together
toward what we hope to be theidentification of a missing
(20:10):
service members service member.
And because of that, we spare noexpense in terms of advancing
the technology. We also startedusing something called isotope
testing, and analysis. And whatthis is, is what you eat and
(20:31):
drink as a as a baby, or even asa young as a young adult, marks
you for the rest of your life.
And with the isotope analysis,if we were to take an isotope
sample, compare it against whatwe call ice escapes, which are
isotope maps, we can literallydifferentiate where you grew up.
(20:52):
And whether that be the Midwest,the northeast, or even a foreign
country. We can ascertain whereyou were growing up, in which
case, this becomes notnecessarily line of evidence,
but it becomes a what we call anexclusionary point where we can
exclude certain individuals, andthen focus on the more
(21:15):
expensive, more time consumingDNA testing.
Dr. David Shulkin (21:20):
Do you think there's ever going to be a time
that DPA can say that they havefound or they know a reasonable
explanation for everyone who'smissing an action? Or do you
think that this mission is onethat just is going to continue
forever?
Kelly McKeague (21:37):
Mr. Secretary?
Regrettably, the short answer isno. From the standpoint that our
two biggest enemies are time andnumbers time from the standpoint
that 66 decades seven eightdecades or have passed, and
these remains again exposed tothe elements are degrading in
some cases dependent upon thesoil conditions. But numbers is
(21:59):
our biggest enemy. From thestandpoint that of the
81,000 81,000 Emi as from WorldWar Two through Operation Iraqi
Freedom, we estimate 38,000 tobe recoverable. What I mean by
that is for those deepwater, andthis when I say deepwater,
(22:20):
beyond 1000, foot depth, ships,aircraft, submarines, those are
we considered non recoverablebecause, again, we don't we lack
the technology with which to beable to find, and more
importantly, recover thoseremains. But the 38,000 is a
daunting number, particularlyfrom the standpoint that our
(22:45):
capacity and capabilitycurrently allows us to identify
around 200 a year. And you cansee that at 200 a year trying to
get to 38,000. It is a steephill to climb. But one that we
are not daunted. We are notdeterred by one that allows us
(23:07):
to again, still focus on theabilities and capabilities, we
have to be able to bring answerslong sought answers to families
that have waited for decades.
And so we don't see this missionending as much as it is
(23:28):
continuing from the standpointof working to provide the
fullest possible accounting tofamilies and more importantly,
their their loved one. And forus, this fullest possible
accounting takes differentforms. Obviously, the ultimate
answer is the identification andrepatriation of a set of remains
(23:50):
to a family. But in some cases,our scientists are historians
may reach a point where we'vedone everything humanly
possible, and there is noevidence of that individual
being at that particular site.
In that case, that analyticaldetermination is what reaches
the fullest possible accounting,not the answer that they want.
(24:11):
But one that they know that thisgovernment, this United States,
our nation, did everythingpossible to try to find their
loved one? Well,
Louis Celli (24:21):
in order to do that, your team doesn't just go
to, you know, to Laos and toVietnam. You go all over the
world, isn't that right?
Kelly McKeague (24:30):
Absolutely. Lou, I mentioned earlier that we work
with 46 countries, countries inEurope, countries in all over
Asia, as well as the SouthPacific, essentially wherever an
American fell in combat pain,the ultimate sacrifice for his
nation. And so, again, we sentteams to the sub Himalayan
(24:53):
altitudes of India. We sentteams to the jungles of Vietnam,
the beaches Have Tarawa in theisland nation of cure Bosch, and
even the battlefields of Europe.
This very day, we have a team inSicily, working at a BT 24 crash
site. We have a team inThailand. And we even have a
(25:14):
team in the Northern Marianas USterritory on an underwater
mission. So again, these men andwomen deploy for 45 to 60 days,
depending upon the complexity ofthe case. I mentioned earlier
that we augment our teams withindividual augment tees from all
(25:35):
six services that contributecritical skill sets to help us
execute an investigation orrecovery.
Dr. David Shulkin (25:45):
Do our allies and their governments have
efforts that are similar to theDPA? Or is this unique American
commitment?
Kelly McKeague (25:56):
Mr. Secretary, it's almost unique. One would
think that countries that weshare western values would have
a similar scope and magnitude ofeffort. But for countries like
the United Kingdom, Australia,Canada, theirs is a reactive
posture, from the standpointthat they do have small
(26:19):
elemental units, that shouldsomeone tell them that they
found what they believe to bethe remains of that particular
country, then they will sendthis small element the nettle
Netherlands is probably one thatcomes to mind from the
standpoint of, of having verygood capability. But again, in a
more reactive posture. TheRepublic of Korea, South Korea
(26:43):
comes close to the United Statesin terms of its commitment, its
breath and depth of this missionfor the South Koreans. They're
still looking for 300,000Missing South Koreans from the
Korean War. They came to us backin 2001 asked us to help them
set up a similar capability.
We've done that. And it isreally eye watering to see what
(27:07):
the South Koreans have done isprobably not probably it is our
most robust joint partnershipthat we have with our South
Korean counterparts. We conductjoint missions, investigations
and recoveries, they have foundAmericans over the years we have
found South Koreans, we'verepatriated our war dead to each
other. And then the other onethat's interesting is Japan.
(27:32):
Japan actually uses nongovernmental organizations and
they scour the battlefields ofthe South Pacific, and Asia,
Japan is still looking for600,000 of its missing service
members. And what's unique aboutJapan is until recently, if
Japan found remains that theybelieve to be of Japanese
(27:56):
origin, they would cremate theremains on site, and then take
the ashes back to Japan.
problematic for us from thestandpoint that if there are
Kollek colocated losses, wewould not want the inadvertent
destruction of American remains.
So we have worked closely withthe Japanese Government for
1015 15 years actually, andfinally got a law changed. That
(28:20):
now requires them their teams tohave forensic reviews
accomplished at the recoverysite, before the remains are
cremated, which is a hugechange. But once again, that
speaks to the noble intentionsand mission that finding our
(28:41):
respective war did has.
Dr. David Shulkin (28:46):
I just wanted to ask you about some of these
46 countries. Obviously, many ofour listeners are very
interested in the more recentcountries where we've had
conflict in Iraq and Afghanistanin particular, are we able to
have active efforts underway andboth of those countries
Kelly McKeague (29:07):
Secretary Shulkin This is actually a good
news story from the standpointthat we over the years have
improved what we termed to bepersonnel recovery. This is
where we actually recover thefallen soldier, sailor, airman
or marine after the battle. Now,the numbers drop precipitously
(29:30):
from the standpoint that 72,000missing from World War Two,
Korea 7500 As I mentioned,Vietnam 1600 and it drops even
further after that. For currentconflicts, relatively current
conflicts. There are only sixindividuals that are missing
(29:52):
from Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Few contractors as well asservice members Here's what's I
think this is absolutelyphenomenal, Operation Enduring
Freedom. In Afghanistan, whenyou consider 20 years of
conflict, in far flung places inremote places, the number of
(30:13):
missing inaction from OperationEnduring Freedom is zero. Not a
single American is Mia, from theAfghanistan War, which is
absolutely incredible. Butagain, it speaks to the
service's commitment towardcombat search and rescue, toward
(30:35):
personnel recovery, to ensurethat no matter what the cost, no
matter what the circumstances,no American servicemembers lost
in Afghanistan was left behind,I find that absolutely
incredible. I want
Louis Celli (30:54):
to take you back for a minute to to the North
Korea and the 55 bucks as aremains, because that was a bit
of a watershed moment at, youknow, at the moment, at the time
that they were transferred overto the United States. And And
this speaks, I think, directlyto the skill set of your team,
being able to identify not onlythe fact of whether it's a human
(31:18):
remain or not, but what regionthat the, you know, that the
deceased lived in what theirdiet was, can and can you talk a
little bit about what wasactually in those boxes? And is
there anything left still yet todiscover?
Kelly McKeague (31:33):
Right, Lou, so you know, as I mentioned, the 55
boxes was a watershed event, andone that we thought would
reinvigorate our relationshipwith North Korea, but more
importantly, re starting, ourability to recover remains
inside North Korea. 55 boxesactually turned out to be the
(31:57):
DNA of 250 individuals. Therewere no complete skeletons in
the boxes, they consisted ofindividual bones, I think the
the most that we had for anindividual was for bones
associated with that particularindividual. But our scientists
were and were able to sortthrough all the remains, and
(32:20):
differentiate, again, throughDNA testing, isotope analysis,
the fact that they represented250 separate individuals. As I
mentioned earlier, werepatriated 80 of those remains
to the South Koreans. But here'swhat's, what's fascinating about
(32:40):
this work, is the fact thatevery single set of those
remains and to date we haveidentified at to represent an
American represent an Americanwho made the supreme sacrifice,
and also a family whose grievingwere was exacerbated by years of
(33:00):
uncertainty. There was only one,what we call material evidence
that was associated, in otherwords, a personal effect that
was associated with anindividual and this happened to
be a set of dog tags. Now theremains when our scientists
actually flew into North Korea,on a C 17. To take possession of
(33:21):
those 55 boxes. The NorthKoreans were actually did this
very well, they actually had oneach box where the remains were
recovered from. And it Thisturned out to be when are
historians compared? What thescientists determined to be a
particularly individual that itwas where the North Korean said
(33:44):
that they recovered it from butI mentioned the the unique
stories that every one of thesemissing Americans have. I
remember the firstidentification made from those
boxes. It turned out the mastersergeant who actually was a
veteran of World War Two, MasterSergeant Charles McDaniel, who
was from Indiana. He had twosons, who were, I believe, two
(34:04):
and five, when their dad wentmissing in North Korea. And he
was a medic, Army medic, when weidentify Charles McDaniel, and
again, he was the first from the55 boxes. The one material
evidence that was related to himassociated with him was his dog
tags. And wouldn't you know, hisoldest son was a army retired
(34:29):
Army chaplain. And it was, itwas so gratifying for us because
here's this retired Armychaplain who told us, you know,
for years he was the one counts,consoling families who lost
loved ones in Iraq andAfghanistan. And now he was
being consoled. Absolutelyphenomenal when you think about
(34:53):
the fact that this nation doeswhat it does to the degree that
it does, and does it so well.
Dr. David Shulkin (35:00):
That is amazing. Thank you,
Louis Celli (35:01):
we're getting ready to run out of time. Before we
go, I think what's reallyimportant to share for our
listeners who haven't had thehonor of being able to visit
your facility, is you walkthrough the hallways, you know,
just the hallways where yourscientists work and walk back
and forth to the break room. Andin and out of the building. Up
(35:22):
on the wall, there are someposters, and they've got names
and faces. And can you tell us alittle bit about those?
Kelly McKeague (35:27):
Sure. So you know, Louis, this is something
that that seizes every singleone of us from the standpoint
that we know that every set ofremains that comes into through
our doors, hopefully will beassociated with an individual,
an American who made theultimate sacrifice. And for
(35:51):
scientists, they connect withthese remains, because again,
they are there to hopefully usetheir talent, their passion,
toward identifying, and moreimportantly, providing answers
to families. So they becomeclose. And so you know, the
(36:12):
poster you're referring to wasone of from the battle of
Tarawa. So we have an activeproject in Tarawa, where it was
a bloody battle where theMarines lost hundreds of
individuals, and there are stilla number of them still missing.
So our scientists put together aposter and on the poster is a
(36:35):
picture wartime picture of everysingle missing marine or sailor
from the battle of Tarawa. Andwhen they're identified, that
creates such a joy, such arelief, that they recognize that
identification on this poster.
One that comes to mind is one ofthe early identifications from
(36:56):
from Tarawa was LieutenantAlexander bondman, who was a
recipient of the CongressionalMedal of Honor. Tenant Bonnie
Minh was from Knoxville,Tennessee. He had a daughter,
who was one year old when hewent off to combat and was lost
in the Battle of Tarawa. Hisdaughter actually, is her name.
(37:18):
She's named after her fatherAlexandra. And she actually came
out to Hawaii, she actuallylived on Maui. And so when these
remains were brought back fromTarawa, there were 34 of them.
And Lieutenant Bonnie man hadvery, very unique dental work,
(37:39):
and so are scientists whorecovered him knew who he was,
but he wasn't formallyidentified. And so here are 34
transfer cases, all draped withthe American flag. Laying in a
hangar at Hickam Air Force Basein Honolulu. We knew who which
(38:00):
of the 34 belong to LieutenantBonnie men. And so after the
ceremony that the Marine Corpsran, we told Alexandra, this is
your dad, at what a heartwrenching heart warming
opportunity to see her she had alay. And she placed the lay on
her father's transfer case.
(38:24):
Didn't remember her fatherbecause she was one year old.
But again, it just speaks to howpassionate how incredibly
enthusiastic dedicated. Anyoneassociated with this mission can
be an is because of stories likethat.
Charlie Malone (38:40):
General mcag I hope you don't mind the
interruption. Charlie Malonehere, I'm just in the
background. I'm wondering as aretired naval officer about Davy
Jones locker is that 1000 footdepth limit really
insurmountable.
Kelly McKeague (38:54):
Charlie, our limit right now because of
technology is about 150 feet.
And so any ship or any submarineor even aircraft beyond that is
is outside of our reach. Now,having said that, we do have a
case here coming up in thesummer, in off the coast of Papa
New Guinea, where we areactually diving because the Navy
(39:18):
actually has a capability calledsaturation dive. And this
capability allows them thedivers to reach depths of 1000
feet, and more importantly, staydown below for hours and not
have to worry aboutdecompression. And so we're very
excited about what this mightdo. And so it's a it's a bomber
(39:40):
called heaven can wait. It isagain 1000 feet depth, and one
that we're hopeful that shouldthis mission succeed. It surely
opens up and expands our reachour capability and more
important our opportunity tolook for aircraft ships
(40:01):
submarines at lower depths, youfind it interesting that we
actually are going to have tolook at this with with the Navy
because for the Navy, and youknow this, they look at this as
their final resting place. Andso every time we come across a
(40:22):
Navy vessel, whether it be aship or submarine or aircraft,
we always need permission fromthe Navy to do this. And so we
had done this on a Corsair. Thatwas an airman naval aviator who
was part of President Bush'ssquadron that flew off the San
Jacinto. And he, we actuallyfound his remains. But again,
(40:48):
that was about 125 feet. But thesaturation dive mission that's
coming up. We're very excitedabout it, because there are 11,
airman, US Army Air Forces,airmen that are missing on
heaven can wait, bomber. And sowe're hopeful that they'll find
something and more portly, openup the capabilities and
(41:09):
opportunities.
Dr. David Shulkin (41:11):
Kelly, it's really amazing the work that
you're doing, and you talk aboutthe motivation for this, but
behind every person that youidentify is a story. These are
real people with people who careabout them and love them. So can
you tell us about anybody inparticular, a certain example of
(41:34):
where this work really wasimpactful to you,
Kelly McKeague (41:37):
Mr. Secretary, you hit the nail on the head.
Every one of these missingAmericans has such a unique
story. And those stories arepassed down from generation to
generation. I mentioned earlierabout the story of Master
Sergeant McDaniel, and how histwo sons received the ultimate
answer from their father goingmissing when they're young boys.
Another one that comes to mindand there are literally
(41:59):
hundreds, but one that comes tomind is a story of Captain
Lawrence Dixon, who was aTuskegee Airman, and a member of
the famed unit that fought inWorld War Two. He was a p 38.
Mustang pilot. He was from theBronx, New York when he went off
to combat. He was on his secondto the last mission. Before he
(42:24):
was completing his tour ofcombat, to come back to the
United States and crashed andwas missing for many years. Due
to the help of some localhistorians who got together with
our historians, we were able topinpoint the site turned out to
be a crash site near theAustrian Italian border. And so
(42:50):
we have partner privatepartnerships. In fact, we have
115 of them with universitiesand non governmental
organizations throughout theworld. We worked with the
University of New Orleans withthe University of Innsbruck on a
field school, an actualexcavation using graduate
students of anthropology. Andwouldn't you know, not only do
(43:11):
they find remains, but they findhis wedding ring, and they find
his harmonica. He was anaccomplished jazz musician, and
obviously could not take his histrumpet into the P 38. Mustang.
But he had a harmonica. And sohis daughter Marlo was two years
(43:32):
old when her dead, went off tocombat and did not come home.
Marla now is a mother has fourchildren of her own adult
children. I just distinctlyremember being at the funeral at
Arlington National Cemetery forthis Tuskegee Airmen, the first
of 27 that we recovered andidentified and Marla wouldn't
(43:53):
you know, had her dad's weddingring around her neck on a
necklace. Absolutely motionalabsolutely gratifying and more
importantly, joyful for theDixon Andrews family. But more
importantly for the Army, AirCorps, Tuskegee Airmen and the
nation. But again, just oneexample of hundreds
Louis Celli (44:16):
general monkey I can't thank you enough for being
here. This. This is really animportant episode. I think our
listeners are going to be bevery riveted to to listening
about the mission of the DPA.
Thank you so much for being herethat that's about all the time
that we have for today. Is thereanything that we may have missed
that you'd like to say before weleave
Kelly McKeague (44:37):
low Secretary Shulkin thank you again for the
opportunity to be a part of yourpodcasts. What you're doing for
veterans and keeping themapprised informed is
extraordinary. And it's also agratifying for us and DPA that
you took the time and moreportly allowed us to talk about
this mission. I would just sayone thing that This national
(45:01):
commitment is one that speaks toAmerica's values. It's one that
is symbolized by as you know,the iconic black and white pow
Mia flag, which flies with thewords you are not forgotten, and
that you are not forgotten isexactly why this nation through
(45:24):
this department of defense doeswhat it does every single day to
ensure that families areprovided answers, but more
importantly, that our servicemembers who are missing are
afforded that opportunity to befound, and more portly, to
return home. Thank you again toboth of you.
Louis Celli (45:43):
Great, thank you.
Goodbye. And that is it. That'sall the time that we have for
this week. Join us next week.
We've got a really interestingepisode with Judge Haley
Weinstein. She's a circuit ShortCircuit Judge out of Baltimore
who started a veteran'streatment court. You're going to
want to hear her journey, howshe got there, and what's
happening now. We'll see younext week.
Charlie Malone (46:08):
Thanks for listening to the policy bits
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts. Go to policy. That'sdot org.
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