March 25, 2022 • 42 mins
Judge Halee Weinstein, an Administrative Judge for Baltimore City's District Court, discusses her role in Veteran Treatment Courts, which decrease recidivism and provide alternatives to the standard prosecution systems, while emphasizing mentorship and the special needs of veterans.
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Episode Transcript
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Halee Weinstein (00:01):
I presided often over a specialized docket
that we call the docket forhomeless persons and it's a
diversion program. And it wasfor people who were homeless and
were charged with minor crimesdrug possession, loitering,
disorderly conduct riding on thelight rail without paying for
(00:21):
things like that. And thepurpose of the court was to
connect them to services the thedefendants to services rather
than prosecute them.
Charlie Malone (00:33):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill the void in support ofPolicy Development for America's
veterans. With your host formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theExecutive Director of Policy
vets Lou Celli, today's guestjudge Halle Weinstein, an
(00:53):
administrative judge for theBaltimore City District Court.
Louis Celli (00:59):
Dr. Franklin, I really want to thank you for
stepping in. And being a guesthost today with with the
secretary out of town. And, youknow, I'd like for people to
hear a little bit about yourbackground, if they haven't
listened to the podcast that wedid with you a couple of months
back. So if you wouldn't mind,you tell people while you make
the perfect host today,
Keita Franklin (01:19):
thank you so much, you're too kind, I am just
thrilled to be here with you andto be able to get on the other
side of the microphone, if youwill. I'm a social worker by
training. My background is insuicide prevention and trauma.
But I've spent a full careerworking with the active duty in
the veteran population, tryingto make sure we're providing the
best care for these populations,where they work, live and
(01:40):
thrive. So that's why I'm heretoday. You've worked
Louis Celli (01:42):
with a variety of different agencies, you you were
the Suicide PreventionCoordinator for the Department
of Defense, and then VA came instole you away. So you know,
when people think about VA, theythey don't commonly think about
an institute of innovation. Canyou talk a little bit about
that?
Keita Franklin (01:59):
Well, I know, I think people do have this
tendency to think that the VA isthis big bureaucratic machine.
And that, you know, clearlyinnovation can't occur in a
government entity. But you know,that's absolutely not the case.
And lots of first innovativesort of things for health care.
And even in the field of mentalhealth care originated in the
VA, actually, the VA is like alarge institution that's able to
(02:21):
fund some of them. And I thinkwe'll hear more about that
today. When we talk to our whenwe talk to our judge about the
veteran treatment courts, thisis also appear a form of
innovation, if you will.
Louis Celli (02:29):
And it's interesting, I remember hearing
the term pack, you know, for apatient line care teams at the
VA long before I heard peopletalking about interdisciplinary
teams at, you know, non VA ornon military hospitals. So, VA
really is at the cutting edge ofbeing at the front of
innovation.
Keita Franklin (02:50):
Yeah, I think this idea when you're able to
embed mental health providersinto primary care settings, and
when you're able to bring crossdisciplinary approaches to some
of our most complex problems,whether that's PTSD or TBI, or
any number of healthcare issues,when you bring education and
nursing and physical health careand mental health care and, and
(03:10):
those sorts of disciplinestogether, you you get the best
solutions. I think
Louis Celli (03:14):
one of the reasons I'm excited to have our guests
today is because, you know,we're talking about different
ways to help veterans who are,you know, going through life and
experiencing, really, you know,just some, some changes from
their military service to, youknow, to what they find
themselves in the civilianworld. And, you know, you and I
(03:35):
had talked a little bit aboutthis earlier, but veteran
treatment courts are, you know,their unique way of dealing with
either substance abuse or, ormental health issues,
depression. And this is a fieldthat you're you're pretty well
versed in.
Keita Franklin (03:53):
Okay, so appreciate that we have these
veteran treatment courts. And Iknow we'll learn more about this
today. But this idea of aveteran having been through
quite a bit of trauma, whetherthat's wartime trauma, or pre
existing traumas before theyjoin the military, or even
sexual assault trauma, and theidea that that the trauma might
have contributed to theircurrent situation. And taking
(04:14):
that lens through these veterantreatment courts, I think allows
them to potentially have asecond chance, a second chance
on life and a chance to get backon track.
Louis Celli (04:22):
You know, I can tell you that the when I was at
Legion, we lobbied for veterantreatment courts at the federal
level, and that was really toestablish a grant program so
that the states and the in thecounties had money to start
these veteran treatment courts.
So, you know, when we talk aboutbeing able to have support
systems in place, I think it'sreally important to recognize
(04:43):
that it's a partnership betweenthe state and federal levels.
Keita Franklin (04:48):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, its state its
federal use, you hear aboutnonprofit sectors that need to
come to bear even, you know,public private folks working
together is really that sweetspot where where there's Where
the care actually can bedelivered in the best possible
way.
Louis Celli (05:03):
Our guest today is Judge Weinstein. She's an Army
veteran. She's got a reallyinteresting backstory who
spearheaded the veteran'streatment court in Baltimore.
Keita Franklin (05:11):
I know, I can't wait to talk to her because in
part, she's a woman. And it's,we, you know, we've been
celebrating a lot of womenlately, especially women
veterans, so I'm super excitedto hear more about her story.
Louis Celli (05:22):
Yeah. You know, Judge Weinstein was a lieutenant
in the army. And then she cameout as gay and and ended up
going to law school. But there'sa story in between there.
Keita Franklin (05:32):
Yeah. It'll be super interesting to hear. Also,
her father was a three star ArmyGeneral, the highest ranking
military intelligence officer inthe army. And I think it was he
that suggested she go to lawschool.
Louis Celli (05:42):
Yeah, it's it's a fascinating story, and I really
can't wait to get to it. Solet's hear all about it.
Terrific.
Judge Weinstein, welcome to thepolicy vets podcast. Hey, thank
you so much for taking the timeto join us today.
Halee Weinstein (06:03):
Thanks for inviting me. I'm really honored
to be able to be here and talkabout one of my favorite
subjects. And that's veteranstreatment courts.
Keita Franklin (06:11):
Yes, Judge Weinstein, we're really
interested in hearing about howthose veteran treatment courts
work. But before we get started,we know you're a veteran
yourself, right?
Halee Weinstein (06:19):
I am indeed a Veteran. I'm also a, I'm also an
army brat, which i i wear thatlabel proudly. So I grew up in
the army. At right I was in ROTCin college. And then I was
commissioned as a SecondLieutenant in the military
intelligence branch in 1984.
Louis Celli (06:39):
What I found extremely interesting when I
when I first started looking atsome of your background and your
history, and I was I was tryingto think about, you know, what
may have motivated you to startthis veteran's treatment court.
And one of the things thatyou're you've been vocal about
in the past, and you've you'vereally embraced is kind of your
own personal military journey,which, which is different than a
(07:02):
lot of the guests that we've hadhere. You know, not not
everybody comes away from themilitary with a positive
experience. And yours is quiteunique. If you don't mind, would
you share some of that with us?
Halee Weinstein (07:15):
Yeah, I sure will share it. Now, I would say
that my experience in the in thearmy was not positive. Much of
it was positive. I thinkprobably everybody's experience
is both positive and negative insome ways. So mine was, it was
(07:36):
life altering, I'll say that Istill am experiencing the trauma
from what I went through in thearmy. When I was in college. As
I said, I was in ROTC, I startedto realize that, that I might be
gay. I wasn't sure it was a veryconfusing time. And we have to
(08:01):
keep in mind that this was inthe early 1980s. So the times
were different than I and Ididn't, I didn't want to accept
that I was a lesbian. Iremember, you know, thinking or
praying, you know, Please, God,don't make me be gay. Because I
knew that. It would be adifficult time for me. And, you
(08:27):
know, when people are startingto come out, they're concerned
that they're going to lose theirfriends. They're, they're
concerned that their theirfamilies are going to disown
them. So it was difficult in bythat time, after I started to
question my sexuality. I hadalready basically committed to
the army because I had beenawarded an ROTC scholarship. I
(08:50):
tried in college to get out ofthat commitment. And I was told
that if I did that, it mightaffect my father's career. And
at that time, my father,I think he had his first star.
So he was a general in themilitary intelligence branch,
and so obviously didn't want todo anything to hurt his career.
(09:13):
So I kept, I kept going one footin front of the other. I was
commissioned. And then Iattended my officer basic
course, out at Fort Huachucawhen my father was the commander
of the intelligence school. Wow.
And then, yeah, I was literallythe generals daughter. So then I
(09:39):
graduated, and my firstassignment was at Fort Bragg and
the 5/19 in my battalion, in abrigade that my father had
commanded when I was in highschool, so I don't think I
really realized how, you knowhow many eyes were on me, but
clearly they were And at somepoint, a soldier, a Special
(10:04):
Forces captain, who was a friendof one of my roommates asked me
out on a date, I didn't go outwith him, I probably would have
I just didn't couldn't go outwith him when I had time,
because at this time, again,still didn't know what my
sexuality was. And then heclaiming to be concerned that
(10:25):
the Russians would wouldblackmail my father reported me
to dia, who then turned theinvestigation over to CID. So I
was I was pulled off a pre jumpin our battalion area. I was
told I needed to get to Cid, Iasked if I could do my jump that
(10:48):
day. They said no, if you don'tcome now, we'll send a car to
get you in that car won't, youwon't be able to get out of the
back seat of that car. So I was23 years old, brand new Second
Lieutenant went to Cid, theyread me my rights. They told me
I was being investigated forsodomy and conduct unbecoming an
officer. And I felt my worldcollapsing around me. I invoke
(11:15):
my fifth amendment right. And Ididn't ask any questions. And at
the time, my parents were TDY,in either South or Central
America. And I was told that thethe JAG corps would meet my
parents at National Airport whenthey got off the plane to brief
them about what was going on. Soat that point, my, you know, I
(11:38):
lost my clearance, I was pulledoff jump status. I wasn't I was
about to be promoted, I wasn'tpromoted. And so over the next
couple of months, the armyconducted a criminal
investigation much like, I'msure you've read about and heard
about the witch hunts that wenton during that period of time.
So they brought my friends incoworkers and interview them.
(12:02):
And when they didn't have enoughevidence to court martial me.
They move to administrativelydischarged me and so I ended up
resigning in lieu ofelimination. I got a general
discharge, and then I had tostart my life again.
Louis Celli (12:17):
So that that is an absolutely horrifying
experience. I personally, amsorry that you had to go through
that I'm I'm somewhat relievedthat the you know that the rules
are different now. That doesn't,that doesn't fix or repair what
what you had to go through. And,you know, as our listeners know,
(12:41):
you know, one of the things thatwe wanted to talk to you about
today was veterans treatments,veteran treatment courts. But if
you don't mind, I just wanted tofollow up a little bit on this,
just pull the thread just for asecond. I'm a little curious. At
what point did the military didthe military out you to your
parents or No, no, was that aconversation you were able to
(13:02):
have with them, and maybe theywere a little bit better
prepared to deal with it.
Halee Weinstein (13:06):
So you know, the army can be small world
organization, especiallymilitary intelligence. So my
brigade commander I had knownsince I was a child. He and his
wife lived across the streetfrom us when we were living in
Munich, Germany. And he and myfather knew each other very
well. And we're good friends andhad worked together. So and this
(13:30):
is something I've only learnedin the past few years. Colonel
Patterson was his name. One ofthe best people I've ever known
in my life. He and his wife arewonderful people they convinced
or Colonel Patterson convincedthe higher ups to let them drive
(13:50):
me from Fort Bragg up to FortMyer, Virginia, where my parents
were living, Colonel Pattersonwent in the house to tell my
parents and I'm going toapologize to you. And to the
folks listening. This is alwaysthe part when I cry when I tell
them a story. So ColonelPatterson went in the house and
(14:12):
his wife and I drove aroundArlington Cemetery. So she
could, she could visit somepeople she knew in the cemetery.
And then after a short period oftime, we went in the house. And
my parents asked me if it wastrue. And I said, Yes. I have
(14:33):
wonderful parents. Now, myfather's been gone for many
years, but a wonderful man in somany ways. They were very
supportive. They offered to hirean attorney for me. I already
had a Jag lawyer. I, I said theJaguar was fine. My father said
(14:54):
that he wished he could dosomething to help me. But one of
the things about my father Isthat, above all, he was a person
of integrity. He would never usehis position in a way that was
inappropriate. So they supportedme through through the
(15:16):
investigation. They helpedsupport me financially. When I
left the army. My fathereventually, as the years went
on, I believe he was on theadvisory board for
Servicemembers Legal DefenseNetwork after President Clinton,
then candidate Clinton hadpromised to lift the ban on gay
(15:43):
and lesbian people serving myfather lobbied he was he was
retired by then he lobbiedsenators and other people to
help convince them that the banshould be lifted
Louis Celli (15:59):
within a Weinstein.
Let me just say that, first ofall, it's an honor to have you
with us. It's it's, it's, it'sspecifically appropriate to have
you now during women VeteransHistory Month, I want to thank
you for your service. I want tothank you for joining us today.
And I want to thank you forsharing your story. I know how
(16:21):
difficult that that must havebeen for you. And thank you for,
for agreeing to speak with usnot only about veteran's
treatment courts, but reallyabout your journey and how you
ended up here.
Halee Weinstein (16:34):
I appreciate the opportunity to share my
story, and then hopefully, talkabout the veterans treatment
courts.
Keita Franklin (16:44):
Absolutely. And I think that's, you know, we'll
we'll roll right into that. Butyour story, I my best guess is
that it informs quite a bit ofyour work with the veteran
treatment courts. And you know,I'm a social worker by training
and have extensive knowledge ofthe importance of veteran
treatment courts, but I don'tthink everybody knows about
them. And so can we just startthere with you sort of sharing
with our audience? What exactlyis a veteran's treatment court?
Halee Weinstein (17:08):
Well, a veteran's Treatment Court is
what we call a problem solvingcourt. And I think a lot of
people have heard about drugtreatment courts. And so veteran
treatment courts are modeledafter veterans treatment courts.
In fact, the very first one wascreated in 2008, by Judge Robert
Russell in Buffalo, who was adrug treatment court judge. And
(17:30):
one day he had a veteran appearin front of him. And I think the
light bulb went off in his headabout, we need to do things a
little differently for veteranswho have substance use disorder,
or mental health disorders. And,you know, he reached out to
(17:51):
partners in the community to theDepartment of Veterans Affairs,
and he started the firstVeterans Treatment Court.
Keita Franklin (17:59):
Wow, I had no idea that that that that was the
early beginning. Yeah,
Halee Weinstein (18:03):
it that it was that long ago, and it's taken a
while for other states to adoptthe model of veterans treatment
courts. But when we started ourcourt in 2015, I think that
there were maybe 100 150, Iprobably have the number wrong.
(18:25):
But now I think there are wellover 400 of these courts across
the country.
Louis Celli (18:30):
So can you tell us a little bit about how you saw
the need for specializedintervention for veterans? I
mean, and how did you go aboutsetting it up? This is the only
one, you know, here in the inthis area. And it really it
wasn't something that the countyor the state wanted to implement
(18:50):
this something you wanted toimplement, and then you got
support for it?
Halee Weinstein (18:53):
Well, that's that is. A lot of what you just
said is correct. Let me let mejust correct a few things. And
that is, there were otherveterans treatment courts in the
area. In fact, Fairfax Countyhas one and involved in
Maryland, Prince George's CountyCircuit Court was actually the
(19:15):
first court Veterans TreatmentCourt to launch in the state of
Maryland. And they they launcheda couple months before we did so
our court is the first districtcourt veteran's treatment court
in the state of Maryland. And wealso have several others and
Arundel County has a districtcourt Veterans Treatment Court.
We have a regional VeteransTreatment Court on the eastern
(19:37):
shore, and I believe fourcounties have their veterans
participate in that court. So sowe were not the only one and in
fact, we were not the first onein Maryland. I need to, you
know, give a shout out to PrinceGeorge's County. Absolutely. So
I I presided often over aspecialized docket that we call
(20:02):
the docket for homeless persons,and it's a diversion program.
And it was for people who werehomeless and were charged with
minor crimes, drug possession,loitering, disorderly conduct,
riding on the light railwithout, without paying for
things like that. And thepurpose of the court was to
(20:25):
connect them to services the thedefendants to services rather
than prosecute them. And so aslong as they engaged in services
for a period of time, then thisstate's attorney, which is our
prosecutor's office, we callthem State's Attorney, some
jurisdictions refer to them asdistrict attorneys, then the
(20:46):
State's Attorneys would dismisstheir cases. And while I was
presiding over that court, Inoticed that a number of the
defendants were veterans. Thiswas in 2014. And, and even
though it was not a problemsolving court, the docket for
homeless persons had a lot ofcommunity partners, Health Care
(21:11):
for the Homeless, the United Wayof Central Maryland. homeless
persons representation project,service providers would actually
be in the courtroom. So wedidn't have to have the
defendants sent somewhere totalk to somebody because we
often lose people when we askthem to go somewhere after court
(21:31):
is over. And so after adopted, Ijust called up the state
attorney, the public defender,and one of the service providers
and I said, Hey, why don't whydon't we start a veterans
docket? Having no idea at allabout the story I just told you
about Judge Robert Russell. Wow.
In Buffalo, I didn't know thatthere were formal veteran's
(21:54):
treatment courts. And you know,it was kind of funny, because
nobody wants to correct a judge.
So we would we were going alongwith these meetings, and I
would, you know, say, Hey, howabout this idea? And how about
that idea? And then finally,somebody said, why don't we look
on the justice for vets website.
So justice for vets is thenational organization that
(22:16):
supports veterans treatmentcourts and provides training
opportunities. So so we startedmeeting, we brought on the
Department of Veterans Affairs,we brought on service providers,
the United Way was instrumentalin coordinating the service
providers, parole and probation,Department of Public Safety and
(22:38):
Correctional Services, which isour our our division of
correction. And we startedplanning for the Veterans
Treatment Court. And I, youknow, I like to boast about
this. From our first meeting inDecember of 2014, we officially
officially launched in Octoberof 2015. So less than a year,
(23:02):
and with no extra money,everybody volunteered their time
their agencies, let them be partof this program. You know, I
like to advocate, please, allover the country start these
courts. And I just want peopleto know it's not easy,
especially in smallerjurisdictions where you don't
(23:23):
have a lot of extra you don'thave extra judges or extra
docket time. And you don't havea lot of money, but you can get
started without those things.
Although it's better to have, itis better to have grant money if
you if you can get it to fundpositions, which we do have now.
Keita Franklin (23:45):
Yeah, it sounds like it's like an all hands on
deck approach when it comes tothis need for interdisciplinary
teams. Do you have I mean, whatelse would you share for folks
about how the teams have to worktogether across government,
private sector, public sector?
How does all that come together?
Halee Weinstein (23:59):
Right, it's absolutely an interdisciplinary
team. So it's comprised theteam, the treatment team, is the
judge, the prosecutor, defenseattorneys, case managers, parole
and probation, the VeteransJustice Outreach specialists
from the VA and some otherservice providers. Those are the
(24:20):
core treatment team members andwe absolutely coordinate we meet
before every docket, we oftencommunicate between dockets if,
you know, we're trying to getsomebody into treatment or
somebody we know somebody ishaving a particularly hard time.
We we talk about that, you know,on days other than docket days.
(24:44):
And, and in Baltimore, we're,we're lucky to be in a city
because we have the VA hospitalright there. We're close to
parry point, which hasresidential beds. We have been
able to send some of ourveterans to Martinsburg so we
are very lucky about that. Butwe also have a lot of local
(25:07):
agencies who provide substanceuse disorder treatment. to
veterans. We have the MarylandCenter for veterans education
and treatment and training.
Sorry, we have project playsBaltimore station. We also
partner with the Warrior Canineconnection. And they actually
(25:29):
bring their, their service dogsin training their their older
puppies, to the courthouse intothe courtroom. And before the
docket starts our veterans helptrain those future service dogs
that will hopefully one day goto a wounded warrior or their
(25:51):
family.
Louis Celli (25:54):
It's okay to talk to a lot about the
interdisciplinary teams and howimportant they are. You talked a
little bit about the partners.
How important are your partnersand is it a big network,
Halee Weinstein (26:04):
the partners are critical to the success of
veterans treatment courts, andwe have so many partners
federal, state and localpartners. As part of the
Baltimore City VeteransTreatment Court. I've already
mentioned a few of them. MC vetHealthcare for the Homeless. I
talked about how important theUnited Way of Central Maryland
is. Warrior Canine connection.
Easterseals asked to be apartner and they help with
(26:28):
providing resumes and jobtraining and helping veterans
get jobs. The University ofBaltimore School of Law, they
have a veterans clinic, theirstudent attorneys actually
represent the veterans in theircases and veterans treatment
courts in the criminal cases.
(26:48):
And they also represent veteransin their civil legal matters,
for example, appealing thedenial of benefits or trying to
get their ratings increased. TheAmerican Red Cross is involved
in our program, we just starteda community service opportunity
with them that our veterans inorder to earn community service
(27:11):
hours, write letters to otherveterans through the American
Red Cross, we have to localorganizations, Sharp Dressed Man
and dress for success that willprovide a suit to the graduates
both both men and women. The sixbranch is a local community
(27:32):
service organization or a localorganization in Baltimore city
that was founded by veterans,it's run by veterans, and they
do community service projects inEast Baltimore. So our veterans
can earn community service hoursby working with the six branch.
So it is truly a collaborationand a team effort.
Louis Celli (27:56):
I'm absolutely sure that that veterans are caught
off guard when they recognize,you know, what a comprehensive
team is working with them in asituation where they thought
that maybe they were facing ajudge and either getting a fine
or, you know, possibly going tojail. I wonder how are cases
referred to the veteran'streatment court? How what's the
(28:17):
screening criteria?
Halee Weinstein (28:18):
Well, I'm also really proud of this. And I
think this is one of the thingsthat's unique to Baltimore City
is, you know, I had been aprosecutor before I became a
judge. And I knew a lot ofpeople from, you know, from my
prior life, as a prosecutor, forexample, I was I had a good
working relationship with thewarden of our local central
(28:42):
booking facility. And what Iwanted to do is to try to get
veterans identified at the timeof arrest at the time of
booking. And I wanted to be ableto see them as soon as I
possibly could. We had visitedFairfax County, which also has
an excellent Veterans TreatmentCourt, their population is a
(29:05):
little bit different. So, forexample, we went our team went
to watch how they did things.
And they had, I think, fourveterans on Well, three veterans
and actually an active dutyofficer on their docket. So they
had a retired general, I think,a retired colonel, an active
duty colonel, and a senior NCO.
(29:30):
We don't I'm I've never seen ageneral or a colonel in my
Veterans Treatment Court. And wehave a much more serious
substance use problem inBaltimore City. So I wanted to
see them as soon as possible. Ididn't want to ask them to try
to apply to our court, which alot of courts do and I
(29:54):
understand why they do it. So Idon't want to sound like I'm
criticizing them in any way. Sowhat happens is the booking
officers ask everybody who'sarrested? Not if they're a
veteran, right? Because we allknow that people even if they
are veterans don't identifythemselves as veterans. They
think they have to vote right,be retired for 20 years have
(30:15):
served in combat, and doctor,you know, be a male and be a
male. Right. And I was going tosay that we know that women
answer that question in thenegative at a much higher rate
than men do. So we asked thebooking officers to ask Have you
ever served in the military, inthe Army, Navy, Marine Corps,
(30:37):
Air Force, Coast Guard, NationalGuard. Now this is a little
funny tidbit, we also learnedthat we had to ask them to say,
Have you ever served in theUnited States military, because
we had somebody arrested who hadbeen in a foreign military, so
they actually mark the paperworkwith a V. And then those
(31:00):
veterans if they're charged witha misdemeanor, because the in in
Maryland, the district courtshandles misdemeanor crimes,
they're set in front of me on anarraignment docket within two
weeks of their arrest. And so weaccomplish a few things. That
way, I see them quickly, we canget them refer to treatment much
(31:20):
more quickly, if they want toparticipate in the program. But
on that day, their attorneyexplains to them the program,
it's completely voluntary, theymake a decision about whether
they want they think they wantto come into the program. But if
they don't, we have the VJ, O,sitting in the courtroom. And if
(31:41):
if we know that they're eligiblefor health care through the VA,
she can start the process forgetting them registered. Or even
if they're already registered,and they haven't been receiving
their treatment at the VA, shecan help link them to treatment
at the VA, whether they comeinto the program or not. So that
(32:02):
that is a couple reasons that itwas important to me to see the
defense of the defendants, theveteran defendants as soon as
possible. And then we we want totry to make the criteria as
broad as possible. So really,the the only veterans that we
(32:22):
don't accept are our veteranswho are charged with a sex
offense. And otherwise, if wecan we offer them the ability to
participate in our VeteransTreatment Court.
Keita Franklin (32:39):
Now, I appreciate your talking about
just the urgency of getting themin and the fact that there it
sounds a little bit like fasttracked right into the veteran
treatment court, in part alsofrom from my perspective is just
this need for if a veteran is incrisis, because they are
involved in some sort of a legaltrouble crisis is like the ripe
opportunity for change, and forperhaps them to begin to ask for
(33:00):
help and receive help and, anduse crisis as an opportunity to
get their lives on track. Andthe fact that you're willing to
do it as quickly as possibleafter the sort of crisis occurs,
I think also plays into theirtheir I suspect plays into their
willingness to receive servicesand get the help they need. So I
think kudos as well, like justsort of being able to fast track
(33:22):
it and so that there's nodowntime or complacency after
the the legal the crisis, if youwill, but can you share some of
your just generally speaking,lessons learned since you've
stood it up? Like what isshocked you the most? Or? Or
what are some of the biggestlessons for somebody that
doesn't know about veteran'streatment court to learn about?
Halee Weinstein (33:39):
Well, I think the the biggest lesson is that
veterans treatment courts aresuccessful. And and, you know,
success is defined in manydifferent ways. You know, it's
it can be defined statistically.
Which is important, right. But,but I think that we also have to
define success in other ways.
(34:04):
So, you know, some of the peoplewho have come in in the court
have very serious mental healthissues, have, they have issues
in that they don't have stablehousing. So for somebody who
has, or serious medical issues,for example, like a stroke, and
so cognitively, they have areally hard time following all
(34:27):
the rules of the VeteransTreatment Court because they
can't keep track of sure theyhave to go to court or or when
their hearing is, but if we canget that veteran in HUD VASH
housing, to me, that's asuccess, because we have taken
somebody without stable housingand been able to get them in
(34:48):
stable housing. Sostatistically, I would say we
have a very, very low recidivismrate in our Veterans Treatment
Court. And so that I think isanother way to look at how these
programs are successful, and Ithink and you know, somebody,
again, like justice for vets whothey have all the information on
(35:10):
all the courts across thecountry, but I think
statistically, veteranstreatment courts have a much
lower recidivism rate than otherproblem solving courts, and
certainly from defendants whohave not gone through problem
solving court.
Louis Celli (35:29):
Yeah, no, I think you're right is matter of fact,
I was I was reading a study byNIH back in 2018, that that
supports a lot of thosefindings. One of the things that
I'm curious about is, is there acategory for your veterans who
have completed the programsuccessfully? Do you do you
consider them alumni? Do theycome back and and volunteer
(35:51):
other receptions? Late? I mean,I don't know how does this work?
Halee Weinstein (35:54):
Well, we don't we consider all the graduates to
be alumni. And we even say, tothe people who haven't
successfully completed, which isa very small number, we are
here, the second, third andfourth Tuesday of every month,
if you need help you come backto us. So we do have people who
have graduated and or who havenot graduated, come back. But
(36:18):
when somebody graduates we have,you know, a little ceremony, and
I present them with a speciallydesigned challenge coin. They
also present a challenge coin totheir mentor. And right, so we
need to talk about mentors. Andso if if you've heard anything
about veterans court, I'm sureyou've heard the term that
(36:41):
mentors are the secret sauce ofveterans treatment courts,
because every veteran when theystand before me in the
courtroom, they have a volunteerveteran mentor. And it's like
they have a battle buddy, thementors can talk to them before
court after court, some of themtalk to them on on, you know,
(37:05):
the off weeks. Sometimes, if ifa veteran I know is not being
particularly honest with me, Iwill have the mentor, take them
out in the hallway and have aconversation with them as if
they're their squad leader, aconversation that I can't have
(37:25):
with them as a judge sitting onthe bench. So anyway, so they
also present their mentor with achallenge coin, to thank them
for helping them get through theprogram.
Keita Franklin (37:38):
Well, this is true to military culture,
though, like you're leveragingthe pre existing goodness of
military culture I on thischallenge coin piece.
Halee Weinstein (37:45):
Absolutely. And the other thing that we do, and
I have to tell you that most ofthese ideas we stole from other
courts at at the annualconference. So we have we have
all the service flags. In thecourtroom, we also have a POW,
flag. Wow. Okay. And everyveteran who graduates, our
(38:08):
mentor coordinators, mothermakes them a streamer with their
name and their date ofgraduation. And we hang that on
their service flag. So if therewere Marine, it's it's gold, the
streamers gold, and it goes onthe Marine Corps flag, right.
Keita Franklin (38:24):
It's a bit of a celebration, if you will. It is
a it is a bit of Yeah,absolutely. This leverages peer
support. Like in my field, wetalk a lot about the power peer
support, and the idea thatmilitary and veterans can often
get the most help from one oftheir own. And you're also
leveraging that, too. So I thinkthat's pretty incredible.
Louis Celli (38:42):
So you talked a little bit about mentors, and
I'm just curious that I mean, ifa veteran if I write were
interested in in volunteering tobecome a mentor for the program,
Halee Weinstein (38:51):
how does that work? Well, specifically, in our
program, our mentor coordinatoris actually an employee of the
United Way of Central Maryland.
And that is, if I may, that'ssomething else. That's, I think,
a little unique to our program.
And instead of the courtcoordinator, and the case
(39:12):
manager and the mentorcoordinator, being court
employees, the court gives theUnited Way, a grant, and then
the United Way, hires thosepeople for us or pays those
folks. So they're actuallyUnited Way employees. That way,
we didn't have to wait for aposition in in in the state
(39:33):
courts to hire those folks. Soanyway, in Baltimore City, you
would email Justin McNabb at theUnited Way, in other courts. I'm
sure there's a way you cangoogle those those courts and
volunteer and we absolutely needmentors in Baltimore City. Every
court needs mentors. And thosefolks, we have mentors who are
(39:57):
Vietnam veterans, we havementors, who are post 911.
Veterans, we have mentors inbetween we have mentors who are
in recovery, who have been soberfor 30 years, and they can
really talk the talk with withthe veterans.
Louis Celli (40:16):
We're just about a time. But before we go, one of
the things that we that wealways want to make sure that we
do is we give our guests reallythe the opportunity to wrap up
anything or to bring backanything we may have missed. And
we want to make sure we give youthe last word. So is there
anything that that you'd like tobring up about the veteran
treatments courts that wehaven't touched on yet?
Halee Weinstein (40:37):
Well, if I may, I just I want to say that I am a
veteran. Most of these veteranstreatment courts are started by
judges who are veterans, butthey don't have to be you know,
it, can it be better maybebecause veterans understand the
language, we speak the samelanguage, we have a connection.
(40:57):
But I would much rather apassionate, committed judge get
a veteran's treatment courtsstarted in their jurisdiction,
even if they're not a veteran.
So I do what I do. Because, youknow, what I learned from my
father is you have to lovesoldiers. And if you take care
of soldiers, your soldiers willtake care of the mission. And
(41:22):
the mission of the veterans inour program is their recovery.
And our mission is to providesort of wraparound services to
them, to help them by having allthe tools in place that they
need to be successful in theirrecovery.
Louis Celli (41:43):
Josh Weinstein, I just want to thank you again for
joining us on the policy. That'spodcast. Thank you so much.
Halee Weinstein (41:49):
Thank you very much for letting me be here
today.
Louis Celli (41:55):
And that is it.
That's all the time that we havefor this week. So join us next
week as we wrap up womenVeterans History Month, with
PBA, National Vice PresidentTammy Jones, and PVA national
director and Robinson, Tammy andand lead PBAs and Anita Blum,
women Veterans Committee. Theseare two women who are going to
be able to shed some light onwhat it takes to be a woman in
(42:16):
the military and some of thethings that they face. You're
not going to want to miss thisepisode. We'll see you next
week.
Charlie Malone (42:25):
Thanks for listening to the policy bets
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts, go to policy. That'sdot org.
I presided often over a specialized docket
that we call the docket forhomeless persons and it's a
diversion program. And it wasfor people who were homeless and
were charged with minor crimesdrug possession, loitering,
disorderly conduct riding on thelight rail without paying for
(00:21):
things like that. And thepurpose of the court was to
connect them to services the thedefendants to services rather
than prosecute them.
Charlie Malone (00:33):
Welcome to Season Two of the policy vets
podcast engaging with leaders,scholars and strong voices to
fill the void in support ofPolicy Development for America's
veterans. With your host formerSecretary of Veterans Affairs,
Dr. David Shulkin. And theExecutive Director of Policy
vets Lou Celli, today's guestjudge Halle Weinstein, an
(00:53):
administrative judge for theBaltimore City District Court.
Louis Celli (00:59):
Dr. Franklin, I really want to thank you for
stepping in. And being a guesthost today with with the
secretary out of town. And, youknow, I'd like for people to
hear a little bit about yourbackground, if they haven't
listened to the podcast that wedid with you a couple of months
back. So if you wouldn't mind,you tell people while you make
the perfect host today,
Keita Franklin (01:19):
thank you so much, you're too kind, I am just
thrilled to be here with you andto be able to get on the other
side of the microphone, if youwill. I'm a social worker by
training. My background is insuicide prevention and trauma.
But I've spent a full careerworking with the active duty in
the veteran population, tryingto make sure we're providing the
best care for these populations,where they work, live and
(01:40):
thrive. So that's why I'm heretoday. You've worked
Louis Celli (01:42):
with a variety of different agencies, you you were
the Suicide PreventionCoordinator for the Department
of Defense, and then VA came instole you away. So you know,
when people think about VA, theythey don't commonly think about
an institute of innovation. Canyou talk a little bit about
that?
Keita Franklin (01:59):
Well, I know, I think people do have this
tendency to think that the VA isthis big bureaucratic machine.
And that, you know, clearlyinnovation can't occur in a
government entity. But you know,that's absolutely not the case.
And lots of first innovativesort of things for health care.
And even in the field of mentalhealth care originated in the
VA, actually, the VA is like alarge institution that's able to
(02:21):
fund some of them. And I thinkwe'll hear more about that
today. When we talk to our whenwe talk to our judge about the
veteran treatment courts, thisis also appear a form of
innovation, if you will.
Louis Celli (02:29):
And it's interesting, I remember hearing
the term pack, you know, for apatient line care teams at the
VA long before I heard peopletalking about interdisciplinary
teams at, you know, non VA ornon military hospitals. So, VA
really is at the cutting edge ofbeing at the front of
innovation.
Keita Franklin (02:50):
Yeah, I think this idea when you're able to
embed mental health providersinto primary care settings, and
when you're able to bring crossdisciplinary approaches to some
of our most complex problems,whether that's PTSD or TBI, or
any number of healthcare issues,when you bring education and
nursing and physical health careand mental health care and, and
(03:10):
those sorts of disciplinestogether, you you get the best
solutions. I think
Louis Celli (03:14):
one of the reasons I'm excited to have our guests
today is because, you know,we're talking about different
ways to help veterans who are,you know, going through life and
experiencing, really, you know,just some, some changes from
their military service to, youknow, to what they find
themselves in the civilianworld. And, you know, you and I
(03:35):
had talked a little bit aboutthis earlier, but veteran
treatment courts are, you know,their unique way of dealing with
either substance abuse or, ormental health issues,
depression. And this is a fieldthat you're you're pretty well
versed in.
Keita Franklin (03:53):
Okay, so appreciate that we have these
veteran treatment courts. And Iknow we'll learn more about this
today. But this idea of aveteran having been through
quite a bit of trauma, whetherthat's wartime trauma, or pre
existing traumas before theyjoin the military, or even
sexual assault trauma, and theidea that that the trauma might
have contributed to theircurrent situation. And taking
(04:14):
that lens through these veterantreatment courts, I think allows
them to potentially have asecond chance, a second chance
on life and a chance to get backon track.
Louis Celli (04:22):
You know, I can tell you that the when I was at
Legion, we lobbied for veterantreatment courts at the federal
level, and that was really toestablish a grant program so
that the states and the in thecounties had money to start
these veteran treatment courts.
So, you know, when we talk aboutbeing able to have support
systems in place, I think it'sreally important to recognize
(04:43):
that it's a partnership betweenthe state and federal levels.
Keita Franklin (04:48):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, its state its
federal use, you hear aboutnonprofit sectors that need to
come to bear even, you know,public private folks working
together is really that sweetspot where where there's Where
the care actually can bedelivered in the best possible
way.
Louis Celli (05:03):
Our guest today is Judge Weinstein. She's an Army
veteran. She's got a reallyinteresting backstory who
spearheaded the veteran'streatment court in Baltimore.
Keita Franklin (05:11):
I know, I can't wait to talk to her because in
part, she's a woman. And it's,we, you know, we've been
celebrating a lot of womenlately, especially women
veterans, so I'm super excitedto hear more about her story.
Louis Celli (05:22):
Yeah. You know, Judge Weinstein was a lieutenant
in the army. And then she cameout as gay and and ended up
going to law school. But there'sa story in between there.
Keita Franklin (05:32):
Yeah. It'll be super interesting to hear. Also,
her father was a three star ArmyGeneral, the highest ranking
military intelligence officer inthe army. And I think it was he
that suggested she go to lawschool.
Louis Celli (05:42):
Yeah, it's it's a fascinating story, and I really
can't wait to get to it. Solet's hear all about it.
Terrific.
Judge Weinstein, welcome to thepolicy vets podcast. Hey, thank
you so much for taking the timeto join us today.
Halee Weinstein (06:03):
Thanks for inviting me. I'm really honored
to be able to be here and talkabout one of my favorite
subjects. And that's veteranstreatment courts.
Keita Franklin (06:11):
Yes, Judge Weinstein, we're really
interested in hearing about howthose veteran treatment courts
work. But before we get started,we know you're a veteran
yourself, right?
Halee Weinstein (06:19):
I am indeed a Veteran. I'm also a, I'm also an
army brat, which i i wear thatlabel proudly. So I grew up in
the army. At right I was in ROTCin college. And then I was
commissioned as a SecondLieutenant in the military
intelligence branch in 1984.
Louis Celli (06:39):
What I found extremely interesting when I
when I first started looking atsome of your background and your
history, and I was I was tryingto think about, you know, what
may have motivated you to startthis veteran's treatment court.
And one of the things thatyou're you've been vocal about
in the past, and you've you'vereally embraced is kind of your
own personal military journey,which, which is different than a
(07:02):
lot of the guests that we've hadhere. You know, not not
everybody comes away from themilitary with a positive
experience. And yours is quiteunique. If you don't mind, would
you share some of that with us?
Halee Weinstein (07:15):
Yeah, I sure will share it. Now, I would say
that my experience in the in thearmy was not positive. Much of
it was positive. I thinkprobably everybody's experience
is both positive and negative insome ways. So mine was, it was
(07:36):
life altering, I'll say that Istill am experiencing the trauma
from what I went through in thearmy. When I was in college. As
I said, I was in ROTC, I startedto realize that, that I might be
gay. I wasn't sure it was a veryconfusing time. And we have to
(08:01):
keep in mind that this was inthe early 1980s. So the times
were different than I and Ididn't, I didn't want to accept
that I was a lesbian. Iremember, you know, thinking or
praying, you know, Please, God,don't make me be gay. Because I
knew that. It would be adifficult time for me. And, you
(08:27):
know, when people are startingto come out, they're concerned
that they're going to lose theirfriends. They're, they're
concerned that their theirfamilies are going to disown
them. So it was difficult in bythat time, after I started to
question my sexuality. I hadalready basically committed to
the army because I had beenawarded an ROTC scholarship. I
(08:50):
tried in college to get out ofthat commitment. And I was told
that if I did that, it mightaffect my father's career. And
at that time, my father,I think he had his first star.
So he was a general in themilitary intelligence branch,
and so obviously didn't want todo anything to hurt his career.
(09:13):
So I kept, I kept going one footin front of the other. I was
commissioned. And then Iattended my officer basic
course, out at Fort Huachucawhen my father was the commander
of the intelligence school. Wow.
And then, yeah, I was literallythe generals daughter. So then I
(09:39):
graduated, and my firstassignment was at Fort Bragg and
the 5/19 in my battalion, in abrigade that my father had
commanded when I was in highschool, so I don't think I
really realized how, you knowhow many eyes were on me, but
clearly they were And at somepoint, a soldier, a Special
(10:04):
Forces captain, who was a friendof one of my roommates asked me
out on a date, I didn't go outwith him, I probably would have
I just didn't couldn't go outwith him when I had time,
because at this time, again,still didn't know what my
sexuality was. And then heclaiming to be concerned that
(10:25):
the Russians would wouldblackmail my father reported me
to dia, who then turned theinvestigation over to CID. So I
was I was pulled off a pre jumpin our battalion area. I was
told I needed to get to Cid, Iasked if I could do my jump that
(10:48):
day. They said no, if you don'tcome now, we'll send a car to
get you in that car won't, youwon't be able to get out of the
back seat of that car. So I was23 years old, brand new Second
Lieutenant went to Cid, theyread me my rights. They told me
I was being investigated forsodomy and conduct unbecoming an
officer. And I felt my worldcollapsing around me. I invoke
(11:15):
my fifth amendment right. And Ididn't ask any questions. And at
the time, my parents were TDY,in either South or Central
America. And I was told that thethe JAG corps would meet my
parents at National Airport whenthey got off the plane to brief
them about what was going on. Soat that point, my, you know, I
(11:38):
lost my clearance, I was pulledoff jump status. I wasn't I was
about to be promoted, I wasn'tpromoted. And so over the next
couple of months, the armyconducted a criminal
investigation much like, I'msure you've read about and heard
about the witch hunts that wenton during that period of time.
So they brought my friends incoworkers and interview them.
(12:02):
And when they didn't have enoughevidence to court martial me.
They move to administrativelydischarged me and so I ended up
resigning in lieu ofelimination. I got a general
discharge, and then I had tostart my life again.
Louis Celli (12:17):
So that that is an absolutely horrifying
experience. I personally, amsorry that you had to go through
that I'm I'm somewhat relievedthat the you know that the rules
are different now. That doesn't,that doesn't fix or repair what
what you had to go through. And,you know, as our listeners know,
(12:41):
you know, one of the things thatwe wanted to talk to you about
today was veterans treatments,veteran treatment courts. But if
you don't mind, I just wanted tofollow up a little bit on this,
just pull the thread just for asecond. I'm a little curious. At
what point did the military didthe military out you to your
parents or No, no, was that aconversation you were able to
(13:02):
have with them, and maybe theywere a little bit better
prepared to deal with it.
Halee Weinstein (13:06):
So you know, the army can be small world
organization, especiallymilitary intelligence. So my
brigade commander I had knownsince I was a child. He and his
wife lived across the streetfrom us when we were living in
Munich, Germany. And he and myfather knew each other very
well. And we're good friends andhad worked together. So and this
(13:30):
is something I've only learnedin the past few years. Colonel
Patterson was his name. One ofthe best people I've ever known
in my life. He and his wife arewonderful people they convinced
or Colonel Patterson convincedthe higher ups to let them drive
(13:50):
me from Fort Bragg up to FortMyer, Virginia, where my parents
were living, Colonel Pattersonwent in the house to tell my
parents and I'm going toapologize to you. And to the
folks listening. This is alwaysthe part when I cry when I tell
them a story. So ColonelPatterson went in the house and
(14:12):
his wife and I drove aroundArlington Cemetery. So she
could, she could visit somepeople she knew in the cemetery.
And then after a short period oftime, we went in the house. And
my parents asked me if it wastrue. And I said, Yes. I have
(14:33):
wonderful parents. Now, myfather's been gone for many
years, but a wonderful man in somany ways. They were very
supportive. They offered to hirean attorney for me. I already
had a Jag lawyer. I, I said theJaguar was fine. My father said
(14:54):
that he wished he could dosomething to help me. But one of
the things about my father Isthat, above all, he was a person
of integrity. He would never usehis position in a way that was
inappropriate. So they supportedme through through the
(15:16):
investigation. They helpedsupport me financially. When I
left the army. My fathereventually, as the years went
on, I believe he was on theadvisory board for
Servicemembers Legal DefenseNetwork after President Clinton,
then candidate Clinton hadpromised to lift the ban on gay
(15:43):
and lesbian people serving myfather lobbied he was he was
retired by then he lobbiedsenators and other people to
help convince them that the banshould be lifted
Louis Celli (15:59):
within a Weinstein.
Let me just say that, first ofall, it's an honor to have you
with us. It's it's, it's, it'sspecifically appropriate to have
you now during women VeteransHistory Month, I want to thank
you for your service. I want tothank you for joining us today.
And I want to thank you forsharing your story. I know how
(16:21):
difficult that that must havebeen for you. And thank you for,
for agreeing to speak with usnot only about veteran's
treatment courts, but reallyabout your journey and how you
ended up here.
Halee Weinstein (16:34):
I appreciate the opportunity to share my
story, and then hopefully, talkabout the veterans treatment
courts.
Keita Franklin (16:44):
Absolutely. And I think that's, you know, we'll
we'll roll right into that. Butyour story, I my best guess is
that it informs quite a bit ofyour work with the veteran
treatment courts. And you know,I'm a social worker by training
and have extensive knowledge ofthe importance of veteran
treatment courts, but I don'tthink everybody knows about
them. And so can we just startthere with you sort of sharing
with our audience? What exactlyis a veteran's treatment court?
Halee Weinstein (17:08):
Well, a veteran's Treatment Court is
what we call a problem solvingcourt. And I think a lot of
people have heard about drugtreatment courts. And so veteran
treatment courts are modeledafter veterans treatment courts.
In fact, the very first one wascreated in 2008, by Judge Robert
Russell in Buffalo, who was adrug treatment court judge. And
(17:30):
one day he had a veteran appearin front of him. And I think the
light bulb went off in his headabout, we need to do things a
little differently for veteranswho have substance use disorder,
or mental health disorders. And,you know, he reached out to
(17:51):
partners in the community to theDepartment of Veterans Affairs,
and he started the firstVeterans Treatment Court.
Keita Franklin (17:59):
Wow, I had no idea that that that that was the
early beginning. Yeah,
Halee Weinstein (18:03):
it that it was that long ago, and it's taken a
while for other states to adoptthe model of veterans treatment
courts. But when we started ourcourt in 2015, I think that
there were maybe 100 150, Iprobably have the number wrong.
(18:25):
But now I think there are wellover 400 of these courts across
the country.
Louis Celli (18:30):
So can you tell us a little bit about how you saw
the need for specializedintervention for veterans? I
mean, and how did you go aboutsetting it up? This is the only
one, you know, here in the inthis area. And it really it
wasn't something that the countyor the state wanted to implement
(18:50):
this something you wanted toimplement, and then you got
support for it?
Halee Weinstein (18:53):
Well, that's that is. A lot of what you just
said is correct. Let me let mejust correct a few things. And
that is, there were otherveterans treatment courts in the
area. In fact, Fairfax Countyhas one and involved in
Maryland, Prince George's CountyCircuit Court was actually the
(19:15):
first court Veterans TreatmentCourt to launch in the state of
Maryland. And they they launcheda couple months before we did so
our court is the first districtcourt veteran's treatment court
in the state of Maryland. And wealso have several others and
Arundel County has a districtcourt Veterans Treatment Court.
We have a regional VeteransTreatment Court on the eastern
(19:37):
shore, and I believe fourcounties have their veterans
participate in that court. So sowe were not the only one and in
fact, we were not the first onein Maryland. I need to, you
know, give a shout out to PrinceGeorge's County. Absolutely. So
I I presided often over aspecialized docket that we call
(20:02):
the docket for homeless persons,and it's a diversion program.
And it was for people who werehomeless and were charged with
minor crimes, drug possession,loitering, disorderly conduct,
riding on the light railwithout, without paying for
things like that. And thepurpose of the court was to
(20:25):
connect them to services the thedefendants to services rather
than prosecute them. And so aslong as they engaged in services
for a period of time, then thisstate's attorney, which is our
prosecutor's office, we callthem State's Attorney, some
jurisdictions refer to them asdistrict attorneys, then the
(20:46):
State's Attorneys would dismisstheir cases. And while I was
presiding over that court, Inoticed that a number of the
defendants were veterans. Thiswas in 2014. And, and even
though it was not a problemsolving court, the docket for
homeless persons had a lot ofcommunity partners, Health Care
(21:11):
for the Homeless, the United Wayof Central Maryland. homeless
persons representation project,service providers would actually
be in the courtroom. So wedidn't have to have the
defendants sent somewhere totalk to somebody because we
often lose people when we askthem to go somewhere after court
(21:31):
is over. And so after adopted, Ijust called up the state
attorney, the public defender,and one of the service providers
and I said, Hey, why don't whydon't we start a veterans
docket? Having no idea at allabout the story I just told you
about Judge Robert Russell. Wow.
In Buffalo, I didn't know thatthere were formal veteran's
(21:54):
treatment courts. And you know,it was kind of funny, because
nobody wants to correct a judge.
So we would we were going alongwith these meetings, and I
would, you know, say, Hey, howabout this idea? And how about
that idea? And then finally,somebody said, why don't we look
on the justice for vets website.
So justice for vets is thenational organization that
(22:16):
supports veterans treatmentcourts and provides training
opportunities. So so we startedmeeting, we brought on the
Department of Veterans Affairs,we brought on service providers,
the United Way was instrumentalin coordinating the service
providers, parole and probation,Department of Public Safety and
(22:38):
Correctional Services, which isour our our division of
correction. And we startedplanning for the Veterans
Treatment Court. And I, youknow, I like to boast about
this. From our first meeting inDecember of 2014, we officially
officially launched in Octoberof 2015. So less than a year,
(23:02):
and with no extra money,everybody volunteered their time
their agencies, let them be partof this program. You know, I
like to advocate, please, allover the country start these
courts. And I just want peopleto know it's not easy,
especially in smallerjurisdictions where you don't
(23:23):
have a lot of extra you don'thave extra judges or extra
docket time. And you don't havea lot of money, but you can get
started without those things.
Although it's better to have, itis better to have grant money if
you if you can get it to fundpositions, which we do have now.
Keita Franklin (23:45):
Yeah, it sounds like it's like an all hands on
deck approach when it comes tothis need for interdisciplinary
teams. Do you have I mean, whatelse would you share for folks
about how the teams have to worktogether across government,
private sector, public sector?
How does all that come together?
Halee Weinstein (23:59):
Right, it's absolutely an interdisciplinary
team. So it's comprised theteam, the treatment team, is the
judge, the prosecutor, defenseattorneys, case managers, parole
and probation, the VeteransJustice Outreach specialists
from the VA and some otherservice providers. Those are the
(24:20):
core treatment team members andwe absolutely coordinate we meet
before every docket, we oftencommunicate between dockets if,
you know, we're trying to getsomebody into treatment or
somebody we know somebody ishaving a particularly hard time.
We we talk about that, you know,on days other than docket days.
(24:44):
And, and in Baltimore, we're,we're lucky to be in a city
because we have the VA hospitalright there. We're close to
parry point, which hasresidential beds. We have been
able to send some of ourveterans to Martinsburg so we
are very lucky about that. Butwe also have a lot of local
(25:07):
agencies who provide substanceuse disorder treatment. to
veterans. We have the MarylandCenter for veterans education
and treatment and training.
Sorry, we have project playsBaltimore station. We also
partner with the Warrior Canineconnection. And they actually
(25:29):
bring their, their service dogsin training their their older
puppies, to the courthouse intothe courtroom. And before the
docket starts our veterans helptrain those future service dogs
that will hopefully one day goto a wounded warrior or their
(25:51):
family.
Louis Celli (25:54):
It's okay to talk to a lot about the
interdisciplinary teams and howimportant they are. You talked a
little bit about the partners.
How important are your partnersand is it a big network,
Halee Weinstein (26:04):
the partners are critical to the success of
veterans treatment courts, andwe have so many partners
federal, state and localpartners. As part of the
Baltimore City VeteransTreatment Court. I've already
mentioned a few of them. MC vetHealthcare for the Homeless. I
talked about how important theUnited Way of Central Maryland
is. Warrior Canine connection.
Easterseals asked to be apartner and they help with
(26:28):
providing resumes and jobtraining and helping veterans
get jobs. The University ofBaltimore School of Law, they
have a veterans clinic, theirstudent attorneys actually
represent the veterans in theircases and veterans treatment
courts in the criminal cases.
(26:48):
And they also represent veteransin their civil legal matters,
for example, appealing thedenial of benefits or trying to
get their ratings increased. TheAmerican Red Cross is involved
in our program, we just starteda community service opportunity
with them that our veterans inorder to earn community service
(27:11):
hours, write letters to otherveterans through the American
Red Cross, we have to localorganizations, Sharp Dressed Man
and dress for success that willprovide a suit to the graduates
both both men and women. The sixbranch is a local community
(27:32):
service organization or a localorganization in Baltimore city
that was founded by veterans,it's run by veterans, and they
do community service projects inEast Baltimore. So our veterans
can earn community service hoursby working with the six branch.
So it is truly a collaborationand a team effort.
Louis Celli (27:56):
I'm absolutely sure that that veterans are caught
off guard when they recognize,you know, what a comprehensive
team is working with them in asituation where they thought
that maybe they were facing ajudge and either getting a fine
or, you know, possibly going tojail. I wonder how are cases
referred to the veteran'streatment court? How what's the
(28:17):
screening criteria?
Halee Weinstein (28:18):
Well, I'm also really proud of this. And I
think this is one of the thingsthat's unique to Baltimore City
is, you know, I had been aprosecutor before I became a
judge. And I knew a lot ofpeople from, you know, from my
prior life, as a prosecutor, forexample, I was I had a good
working relationship with thewarden of our local central
(28:42):
booking facility. And what Iwanted to do is to try to get
veterans identified at the timeof arrest at the time of
booking. And I wanted to be ableto see them as soon as I
possibly could. We had visitedFairfax County, which also has
an excellent Veterans TreatmentCourt, their population is a
(29:05):
little bit different. So, forexample, we went our team went
to watch how they did things.
And they had, I think, fourveterans on Well, three veterans
and actually an active dutyofficer on their docket. So they
had a retired general, I think,a retired colonel, an active
duty colonel, and a senior NCO.
(29:30):
We don't I'm I've never seen ageneral or a colonel in my
Veterans Treatment Court. And wehave a much more serious
substance use problem inBaltimore City. So I wanted to
see them as soon as possible. Ididn't want to ask them to try
to apply to our court, which alot of courts do and I
(29:54):
understand why they do it. So Idon't want to sound like I'm
criticizing them in any way. Sowhat happens is the booking
officers ask everybody who'sarrested? Not if they're a
veteran, right? Because we allknow that people even if they
are veterans don't identifythemselves as veterans. They
think they have to vote right,be retired for 20 years have
(30:15):
served in combat, and doctor,you know, be a male and be a
male. Right. And I was going tosay that we know that women
answer that question in thenegative at a much higher rate
than men do. So we asked thebooking officers to ask Have you
ever served in the military, inthe Army, Navy, Marine Corps,
(30:37):
Air Force, Coast Guard, NationalGuard. Now this is a little
funny tidbit, we also learnedthat we had to ask them to say,
Have you ever served in theUnited States military, because
we had somebody arrested who hadbeen in a foreign military, so
they actually mark the paperworkwith a V. And then those
(31:00):
veterans if they're charged witha misdemeanor, because the in in
Maryland, the district courtshandles misdemeanor crimes,
they're set in front of me on anarraignment docket within two
weeks of their arrest. And so weaccomplish a few things. That
way, I see them quickly, we canget them refer to treatment much
(31:20):
more quickly, if they want toparticipate in the program. But
on that day, their attorneyexplains to them the program,
it's completely voluntary, theymake a decision about whether
they want they think they wantto come into the program. But if
they don't, we have the VJ, O,sitting in the courtroom. And if
(31:41):
if we know that they're eligiblefor health care through the VA,
she can start the process forgetting them registered. Or even
if they're already registered,and they haven't been receiving
their treatment at the VA, shecan help link them to treatment
at the VA, whether they comeinto the program or not. So that
(32:02):
that is a couple reasons that itwas important to me to see the
defense of the defendants, theveteran defendants as soon as
possible. And then we we want totry to make the criteria as
broad as possible. So really,the the only veterans that we
(32:22):
don't accept are our veteranswho are charged with a sex
offense. And otherwise, if wecan we offer them the ability to
participate in our VeteransTreatment Court.
Keita Franklin (32:39):
Now, I appreciate your talking about
just the urgency of getting themin and the fact that there it
sounds a little bit like fasttracked right into the veteran
treatment court, in part alsofrom from my perspective is just
this need for if a veteran is incrisis, because they are
involved in some sort of a legaltrouble crisis is like the ripe
opportunity for change, and forperhaps them to begin to ask for
(33:00):
help and receive help and, anduse crisis as an opportunity to
get their lives on track. Andthe fact that you're willing to
do it as quickly as possibleafter the sort of crisis occurs,
I think also plays into theirtheir I suspect plays into their
willingness to receive servicesand get the help they need. So I
think kudos as well, like justsort of being able to fast track
(33:22):
it and so that there's nodowntime or complacency after
the the legal the crisis, if youwill, but can you share some of
your just generally speaking,lessons learned since you've
stood it up? Like what isshocked you the most? Or? Or
what are some of the biggestlessons for somebody that
doesn't know about veteran'streatment court to learn about?
Halee Weinstein (33:39):
Well, I think the the biggest lesson is that
veterans treatment courts aresuccessful. And and, you know,
success is defined in manydifferent ways. You know, it's
it can be defined statistically.
Which is important, right. But,but I think that we also have to
define success in other ways.
(34:04):
So, you know, some of the peoplewho have come in in the court
have very serious mental healthissues, have, they have issues
in that they don't have stablehousing. So for somebody who
has, or serious medical issues,for example, like a stroke, and
so cognitively, they have areally hard time following all
(34:27):
the rules of the VeteransTreatment Court because they
can't keep track of sure theyhave to go to court or or when
their hearing is, but if we canget that veteran in HUD VASH
housing, to me, that's asuccess, because we have taken
somebody without stable housingand been able to get them in
(34:48):
stable housing. Sostatistically, I would say we
have a very, very low recidivismrate in our Veterans Treatment
Court. And so that I think isanother way to look at how these
programs are successful, and Ithink and you know, somebody,
again, like justice for vets whothey have all the information on
(35:10):
all the courts across thecountry, but I think
statistically, veteranstreatment courts have a much
lower recidivism rate than otherproblem solving courts, and
certainly from defendants whohave not gone through problem
solving court.
Louis Celli (35:29):
Yeah, no, I think you're right is matter of fact,
I was I was reading a study byNIH back in 2018, that that
supports a lot of thosefindings. One of the things that
I'm curious about is, is there acategory for your veterans who
have completed the programsuccessfully? Do you do you
consider them alumni? Do theycome back and and volunteer
(35:51):
other receptions? Late? I mean,I don't know how does this work?
Halee Weinstein (35:54):
Well, we don't we consider all the graduates to
be alumni. And we even say, tothe people who haven't
successfully completed, which isa very small number, we are
here, the second, third andfourth Tuesday of every month,
if you need help you come backto us. So we do have people who
have graduated and or who havenot graduated, come back. But
(36:18):
when somebody graduates we have,you know, a little ceremony, and
I present them with a speciallydesigned challenge coin. They
also present a challenge coin totheir mentor. And right, so we
need to talk about mentors. Andso if if you've heard anything
about veterans court, I'm sureyou've heard the term that
(36:41):
mentors are the secret sauce ofveterans treatment courts,
because every veteran when theystand before me in the
courtroom, they have a volunteerveteran mentor. And it's like
they have a battle buddy, thementors can talk to them before
court after court, some of themtalk to them on on, you know,
(37:05):
the off weeks. Sometimes, if ifa veteran I know is not being
particularly honest with me, Iwill have the mentor, take them
out in the hallway and have aconversation with them as if
they're their squad leader, aconversation that I can't have
(37:25):
with them as a judge sitting onthe bench. So anyway, so they
also present their mentor with achallenge coin, to thank them
for helping them get through theprogram.
Keita Franklin (37:38):
Well, this is true to military culture,
though, like you're leveragingthe pre existing goodness of
military culture I on thischallenge coin piece.
Halee Weinstein (37:45):
Absolutely. And the other thing that we do, and
I have to tell you that most ofthese ideas we stole from other
courts at at the annualconference. So we have we have
all the service flags. In thecourtroom, we also have a POW,
flag. Wow. Okay. And everyveteran who graduates, our
(38:08):
mentor coordinators, mothermakes them a streamer with their
name and their date ofgraduation. And we hang that on
their service flag. So if therewere Marine, it's it's gold, the
streamers gold, and it goes onthe Marine Corps flag, right.
Keita Franklin (38:24):
It's a bit of a celebration, if you will. It is
a it is a bit of Yeah,absolutely. This leverages peer
support. Like in my field, wetalk a lot about the power peer
support, and the idea thatmilitary and veterans can often
get the most help from one oftheir own. And you're also
leveraging that, too. So I thinkthat's pretty incredible.
Louis Celli (38:42):
So you talked a little bit about mentors, and
I'm just curious that I mean, ifa veteran if I write were
interested in in volunteering tobecome a mentor for the program,
Halee Weinstein (38:51):
how does that work? Well, specifically, in our
program, our mentor coordinatoris actually an employee of the
United Way of Central Maryland.
And that is, if I may, that'ssomething else. That's, I think,
a little unique to our program.
And instead of the courtcoordinator, and the case
(39:12):
manager and the mentorcoordinator, being court
employees, the court gives theUnited Way, a grant, and then
the United Way, hires thosepeople for us or pays those
folks. So they're actuallyUnited Way employees. That way,
we didn't have to wait for aposition in in in the state
(39:33):
courts to hire those folks. Soanyway, in Baltimore City, you
would email Justin McNabb at theUnited Way, in other courts. I'm
sure there's a way you cangoogle those those courts and
volunteer and we absolutely needmentors in Baltimore City. Every
court needs mentors. And thosefolks, we have mentors who are
(39:57):
Vietnam veterans, we havementors, who are post 911.
Veterans, we have mentors inbetween we have mentors who are
in recovery, who have been soberfor 30 years, and they can
really talk the talk with withthe veterans.
Louis Celli (40:16):
We're just about a time. But before we go, one of
the things that we that wealways want to make sure that we
do is we give our guests reallythe the opportunity to wrap up
anything or to bring backanything we may have missed. And
we want to make sure we give youthe last word. So is there
anything that that you'd like tobring up about the veteran
treatments courts that wehaven't touched on yet?
Halee Weinstein (40:37):
Well, if I may, I just I want to say that I am a
veteran. Most of these veteranstreatment courts are started by
judges who are veterans, butthey don't have to be you know,
it, can it be better maybebecause veterans understand the
language, we speak the samelanguage, we have a connection.
(40:57):
But I would much rather apassionate, committed judge get
a veteran's treatment courtsstarted in their jurisdiction,
even if they're not a veteran.
So I do what I do. Because, youknow, what I learned from my
father is you have to lovesoldiers. And if you take care
of soldiers, your soldiers willtake care of the mission. And
(41:22):
the mission of the veterans inour program is their recovery.
And our mission is to providesort of wraparound services to
them, to help them by having allthe tools in place that they
need to be successful in theirrecovery.
Louis Celli (41:43):
Josh Weinstein, I just want to thank you again for
joining us on the policy. That'spodcast. Thank you so much.
Halee Weinstein (41:49):
Thank you very much for letting me be here
today.
Louis Celli (41:55):
And that is it.
That's all the time that we havefor this week. So join us next
week as we wrap up womenVeterans History Month, with
PBA, National Vice PresidentTammy Jones, and PVA national
director and Robinson, Tammy andand lead PBAs and Anita Blum,
women Veterans Committee. Theseare two women who are going to
be able to shed some light onwhat it takes to be a woman in
(42:16):
the military and some of thethings that they face. You're
not going to want to miss thisepisode. We'll see you next
week.
Charlie Malone (42:25):
Thanks for listening to the policy bets
podcasts. For more informationabout projects and other
podcasts, go to policy. That'sdot org.
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