Insurgent Hunter - Jack Treadway Interview

We recently did an episode on Insurgency in pop culture, but this week, we’re going to dive a little deeper with a man who spent a lot of blood, sweat and tears hunting for them in Iraq: Jack Treadway. His new book, Insurgent Hunter is out now.

JACK TREADWAY served as a Navy SEAL with SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team Two and SEAL Team Five, where he became a sniper. He was also a BUDS instructor. Later he earned his commission in the air force and served as a federal agent in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI). He investigated a sexual assault case that resulted in national coverage before he ran other operations such as narcotics. Next, he was assigned to an expeditionary detachment in Iraq, running confidential informants and conducting counterinsurgency operations—hunting insurgents.

To wrap up the episode, Jack tries his hand at a game called "This Quiz Will Make You (I)Raq Your Brains."

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/pop-culture-field-manual--5956105/support.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
In town, in time. There'sa got to follow to make it true.
Welcome back, everybody to the PopCulture Field Manual podcast. I am
happy to be back with you.I'm Israel as always with Cam and today

(00:30):
we've got a very special episode.We recently did an episode if you heard
it, on insurgencies in pop cultureor portrayals of insurgency in pop culture.
But this week we're gonna do alittle bit of a deeper dive with a
man who spent a lot of blood, sweat and tears actually hunting for insurgents
in Iraq, Jack Treadway. He'sgot a new book out, Insurgent Hunter,

(00:52):
that you can check out wherever youread or listen to books. Actually,
I don't know if we have anaudiobook just yet at the time of
this recording. But Jack, thereis, there is there is Okay,
good, all right, that's goodnews for you, Cameron, right,
yeah, I'm all over it man. But Jack, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, good morning, goodmorning, good morning, and well

(01:15):
Jack, you know your your biois extremely impressive. You know, coming
from individuals is he and I withmilitary backgrounds, you know, you're what
we call a cut above the Youknow the rest of us. So I
just wanted to kind of hear fromthe man himself kind of about your background.
What, uh you know, whatinspired you to join? Where did

(01:38):
you what units did you go to? Uh? Yeah, the floor is
yours. My JA appreciate it.Uh. First, I wouldn't uh,
I wouldn't say cut above guys.I know what you guys were through and
what you guys. You know,got buddies from seventh group. I had
a few beers with some Ranger Backguys, So yeah, uh not means
like eight right if you're drinking withRanger Back ays right right? Yeah,

(02:05):
Hey they were buying that night,So I wasn't planning of course, right.
Yeah. So myself originally right outof high school, I was wanting
to be a Ranger and go sF. I actually went to MEPs and
I had the whole thing started withthe Army and I was all about it.

(02:30):
I got in trouble a little bitmy junior year and my father at
the time was a single parent,and he was like, look, he
said, uh, I don't carewhat you do, but when you graduate
high school, your dinner plate isbroken. So that I was on my
own. He said you might wantto pick a branch. So I went
downstarted the process, and I cameback home proud to tell him, and

(02:53):
he said, hey, boy,don't you know the baddest man that walked
the face of the earth or U. D. T. Seals. I'm
like, what the hell is that? So the reason why he was he
felt so strongly is because he wasa sub mariner and he do lock in
lockouts with him. I was like, all right, the old man's impressed.
I'll go check this out. SoI saw that they were stationed primarily

(03:20):
at the beach Man Coronado in aVirginia beach. I'm like, that's for
me, especially if I can stayin California. And then back then,
you know, there wasn't any Internet. There wasn't much literature on so I
had to scrap to find stuff.I mean, I went to like,
you know, the city public libraryand found the old World War two picture

(03:43):
of frogmen locking out and that's all. I get the microfiche, get the
micro fish. Yeah. So Iwent down to talk to the recruiter and
then he gave me about a fivepage pamphlet and he said the attritionary.
It was about eighty and I waslike, all right, what am I
getting myself into here? So themore I read about it and some of

(04:09):
the stuff I thought I could accomplish, So I went ahead and switched over.
And uh, I didn't want totell any of my friends about it
because if I bombed out, youknow how that goes, right, I'm
sure it'd be laughing stock. Sothat's what I did. Man. I
was two weeks out of high schooland I wasn't even shaven yet, and
uh I was in basic training anduh uh back then, they didn't have

(04:30):
They got a pretty complicated pipeline now, which I think is for the better
products and better prepared candidates. Butthey just showed up and said, hey,
man, this is our video.Who wants to do it? So
I already knew I wanted to doit before I got there, and I
was kind of getting out of shapewhen I showed up to get to basic.
We're picks into it. So allthese guys thought it was cool,

(04:53):
and all of a sudden everybody wantedto do it. I was like,
holy shit, And they threw tous all on the pool and that during
the swim test. Man, everybody'sin my away. I'm like you idiots.
Man, I'm trying to do thisfor the rest of my life and
you guys are in a way.So it was like it was like a
soup in there. So got throughit. They got us into the locker

(05:13):
room and they sat down and thatthat's when they went over everybody's as BAB
scores. And after they went throughthe asbab scores and swim, there's two
of us still sitting there. Sure, and then uh and me and and
me and the other guy were thesmallest guys out of the whole group.
So we went from there. Hehad to go you know, saving your
guys kind of assessments. Had todo pull ups, push ups, and

(05:35):
sit ups. Next we did thepush ups and sit ups, and then
we did the pull ups and theother guy couldn't get the pull ups,
and then I got the pull ups. And I remember the uh, the
frog man that was testing us.I mean he was your typical uh about

(05:55):
six two, probably about two twentypreakating the guy they sent to represent the
teams. Yeah looking guy. Yeah, yeah, the gold yosemite sam mustache.
And I was like, yeah,I guess that's what I'm you know,
attaining to be tatted out and uhafter the pull ups, it was
just me left. So we wentout there and you do it with a

(06:16):
steel toe boondockers and the old dunkdams that you had to wear those denim
jean bell bottoms, yeah, anda T shirt. So went out there
and did the run and that wasit. Man had my orders to go
to BUDS. Wow. So theymade you do the assessment for BUDS in
basic training correct. Wow. Yeah, that's like the opposite of my experience.

(06:40):
Yeah. I remember they just saidthe Ranger recruiters walked in and that
was the same story as you enlistedwith the contract and I knew I was
going in and that's what I wasdoing, and uh yeah. The Rangers
just walked in with their awesome tambareason and they were also behemoths of men,
right and uh yeah, and theywere just like who has who can
do this stuff? And also isthis smart? And yeah, and then

(07:02):
they took us all and let usfigure it out? Right. Yeah.
For my for my basic training class, I was like, there was like
fifty of us. I'm only twomanaged to get to the actual unit,
which is myself and my buddy Coo. Yeah. But that's yeah, dude,
I completely yeah what you're saying absolutely. Yeah. You know, Jack,

(07:23):
you talk about the the training pipelinehave if you've kept up with any
of it that you said, it'sevolved since that you said it's gotten better.
Would you say in terms of likehow they get guys in there and
the and the kind of the trainingpipeline they have. Yeah, they it's
they've turned it into almost like amission. Now. I worked with some

(07:44):
guys that used to outreach. Theyhave something called a Seal Switch Scout Team.
And what the guys do is theythey they go to different areas and
go to colleges and they go tohigh schools and you know, they promoted
and they show the guys what theydo and uh, from there, once
they recruit them some guys that mightbe close to the local areas, they'll

(08:05):
pull them in and train them onswimming and PT and and stuff like that.
And then I was just talking toa chief the other day and he
was out on the West Coast wherethey run like a mini Hello week for
some future officers. Yeah, andthen I guess when they go to basic.
Now I don't know if they're stilldoing it, but they have like
a separate pipeline within Basic or rightafter Basic where they keep the guys that

(08:31):
are going E O D or arescue swimmer or or swig or the teams
and they and they and they workthem out there before they actually get their
orders the Buds. Yeah, no, I've heard about that too. It's
it's it's crazy to hear the differencesbetween you know, back in the day
and then today. There's a lotof emphasis onlike because obviously this is an

(08:52):
amazing job, right like, andit's hard to get there, so they
want to make sure that they're creatinga product, which I think is great.
But then again, you know,different personality types nowadays. But we're
not talking about that. This isthis isn't intended. We're talking about your
book, and obviously your books titledInsurgency Hunter Insurgent Hunter, and you talk

(09:13):
about how what you just said,you know, your your journey to BUDS
and then how you became an AirForce OSI agent and you know, we're
all over Iraq and the Middle East, so can you kind of talk about
that transition. You know, obviouslyyou went seals because they're the best of
the best, and you had alot of influence from your old man,
which is extremely respectable. Where Igot to make the old man proud first

(09:35):
and foremost right. But what kindof triggered that switch? Was in an
event in the seals that made yougo and want to commission where you over
the enlisted life. Tell me alittle bit about that. Yeah, no,
so I think I did it morefor health and family reasons than I

(09:56):
bore what my heart wanted to do. You know. Uh, even the
teams was like breaking up with thehottest girl you've ever dated, you know
what I mean? It was tough. I mean, and and not just
because of the job, but becauseof the camaraderie. I mean the stuff
you guys, You guys know it. You know when you when you're working
with guys as that have experienced thesame things you have and they can perform

(10:18):
at the same level as you,it's it's just a whole different type of
camaraderie. You know. Yeah,you missed the clowns, not the circus,
right, you know. I Ireally, you know, I really
enjoyed my experience in the teams.But I had broken my back and then
I had my left knee reconstructed,and I just wasn't the same after that.

(10:41):
And then the other thing too isyou know you get off work in
the teams, and you know Iwould stuck around either peteed or I would
go shoot or something to make myselfbetter and faster. You know, I'm
always competing with somebody that was inmy platoon that might be a bit better
than I wanted to pass. Andand that was my life. And if
I wasn't doing that, I wasout with the boys, you know,
spending my paycheck on grounds. Yeah, but uh, you know, when

(11:05):
you you start a family and thenuh, you know when I when I
got hurt, I got set tobuzz. It's an instructor to heal up.
And my wife, you know,we we we had a second kid
while I was at buds and uh, I don't for what reason, but
I was grocery shopping with her oneday and I think I was an E

(11:26):
six at the time. I waslike, yeah, you know, big
chest and frog man, you know, you're proud. And then she's pulling
this stuff out for wick, youknow, free milk or deductive price uh
uh, dairy products and stuff,and I'm like, what the hell is
that? And she's like, well, this is what it is. I'm

(11:48):
like, we don't need to dothat. D She's like, oh,
yeah, we do. I'm like, what the hell. So I'm in
line and I feel kind of small, you know, and I'm like,
Jesus, I thought I was doingpretty good. M hm. So at
the time when I was at BUDSas an instructor, I was the like
the second senior and listed guy indie phase. They call it an LPO

(12:11):
leading petty officer. It's kind oflike the frontline supervisor, you know.
But you know, it's not atough it's not a tough job because the
guys are just so squared away andthey're on me. But everybody was there
for either injured or they were thinkingabout transitioning to get out, so but

(12:33):
still with the right mindset, like, hey, you know, these guys
that I'm training are going to bestanding with my buddies that I just left
not too long ago, So makesure we turn out the best product possible.
But anyways, so everybody except forone guy and all the die face,
we had about twenty guys in there, including a couple of controllers and

(12:54):
a couple Special Forces guys. Wehad three Special Forces guys We got a
corman who I'm still friends with today, seventh group guy. And then we
had another seventh group guy and stillbuddies with him. He fought. We
went to the Air Force together,you know. Yeah, and then we

(13:15):
had a couple of different uh GreenRay officers that rotated out. All good
dudes. Great experience. But anyways, Uh, we were all going to
college at nights, and since Imade the schedule, I had guys put
one nights they had college and itworked out almost evenly where we can color

(13:37):
the night dives, you know,for each other. So everybody was knocking
out their degrees. We had guysleaving to different agencies. We had guys
joined police departments, you know,anything tactical that they could put their two
guys. We had FBI, hr T guys coming through that we were
training, you know, we hadguys interested in that. That's a good

(14:00):
group of guys, a bunch offormer military guys. It seems like all
of HRT is military. Yeah,they're pretty cool. They were all salt
and pepper hair at the time.I still uh, they were still getting
after it. But that was agood experience, and so I was thinking,
Okay, I'm getting my degree.I'm not quite what I was used
to be, but I still lovethis type of work and I got to

(14:24):
make some more money. You know. It wasn't about me anymore. Yeah,
So I put in an application withthe DEA, and I put in
an application and I came in thedoor one day and one of the Air
Force guys was putting in a packageand he's like, hey, man,
just copy mine. We've got thesame training. So basically that's what I
did. Me and in the GreenBeret, and we caught up his package

(14:46):
and we all got picked up,you know. Yeah, so we got
picked up so quick. It waslike, oh, now what do we
do? Are we really going todo this? You know? So we
made the transition and that was priorto nine to eleven. Wow, okay,

(15:07):
yeah, yeah, so I hadnine to eleven happened. I think
while we were all still there,we would have never even better than I.
You know, hm, what wasit? Like? What was the
what was the training or Air ForceOffice O S I? What was that?
Like? Yeah, I have toadmit I've never heard of this MS

(15:30):
before before we started deciding to dothe interview. Yeah, so I happened
either. At the time, theonly os I age you never heard of
was a six million dollar man.I don't know if you guys are old
enough to remember that. My god, he was an o s I guy.
Yeah, yeah, I'm not oldenough to remember that. So take
the reins. Yeah we can rebuildhim. We have the technology. Yeah

(15:54):
no, no, no, right, But there was a warrant officer,
Uh, pretty good dude. Hislocker was next to mine. We're instructors
at BUDS and uh, he wastalking to me about work he had done
with os I as a team guy. So I looked into it, and
basically, you're a you're a you'rea credentialed what they call a eighteen eleven

(16:18):
federal agent, and your your jobis to investigate, uh you know,
death investigations, rapes, espionage,counter intel. And they did some tactical
work. You know. It wasit was all about that. So,
uh, you know, I hadan application with the DEA. Everything came

(16:41):
back good with that, Everything cameback good with os I. So uh
os I route you go to,uh the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in
Glencoe, Georgia. It's like ahuge People asked me about it, you
know, because some people have arough time there. And when I was
asked, every time I was askedabout it, I was like, man,
that place was great, Like whatare you talking about? Are you

(17:04):
kidding? All you do is yougo there, you take classes about basically
the Fourth Amendment, the search andseizure. Yeah, and uh, and
you fight, you shoot, andyou drive cars fast all day and you
can take yeah yeah, yeah,And so I was like, are you

(17:25):
kidding? I love that, youknow. So, yeah, it was
a great school year there with allthe alphabet soups except for da FBI,
and uh, everybody else is trainingthere, all the other indenc's, n
c I s. There's actually ateam guys. Do want some of the
training down there? Okay? Righton? That would be a pretty cool

(17:48):
assignment there, nice little vacation.Yeah, yeah, it was. You
live right there for six months onthe campus and I just rode on bike
the class every day. It wasawesome. Let's let's transition. Don't want
to talk about your time in Iraqbecause that's obviously a big part of the
book. And then I was overthere. Cameron and I both have deployments.

(18:08):
I was in Iraq in two thousandand eight and then camera was in
Syria in twenty and fourteen seventeen.I was like, wow, I joined
the army and okay, I knewone of those numbers was significant, But
tell us about that, tell usabout how going over then, what that
was like? Yeah, So priorto getting over there, you know that

(18:30):
the primary reason I wanted to goon OSI was because I knew about their
downrange, their downrange mission. There'sstuff that they did overseas for counterintelligience that
I was really interested in when Igot there. Before before I got to
go, they put me in narcoticsfor a while. Interesting. I had

(18:51):
to learn how you had confidential informants. So I was cruising around on my
Harley with a flannel and a beardand hair on out and I had snitches
my ecstasy for me, you know. There you go, it's like Matthew
McConaughey and uh, true Detective Igot hopefully not that bad, not that
bad. I just the first episodeof that this week then, so I

(19:15):
don't that's yet. So anyways,you got to learn how to you know,
work war work informance, you know, and uh, you know,
test them and and and vet themand all that stuff. Before you put
them to work. My bosses andthe States do That's what I wanted to
do. So that's what they hadme do before they set me. So
when I got through, that wasour mission. When you when you got

(19:37):
on the ground, uh, primarilyyou're you're trying to protect everybody on that
base. You know, when Ballagewas a joint base, a lot of
Army Air Force Marine contingent would comethrough from time to time. Funniest thing
I saw this young kid with afifty cowsion niper rifle going to the movie

(19:57):
theater there with us, took hisrifle in the theater. I'm like,
you don't see that every day.Yeah. So but you get there and
we were like a ten man team. We had uh we had a commander,

(20:18):
we had a senior n c O. We had an analyst, we
had interpreters, and then we wouldhave eight collectors agents that worked out of
the bullten that's what we called it. And our job was to uh basically

(20:38):
put target packages together for for foryou know, unit's like you guys is
to touch action. Yeah, Imean you've got a little bit of experience
for building target packages. While you'rein the seal teams, right, because
I have a couple of seal buddiesand that's all they talk about, is
like building target packages when they're overseasto hit. Yeah. So the cool

(20:59):
thing about that, as I hadno experience out with the team, sometimes
the information or the intel they wouldbring us on like where the hell is
this come from? You know?So it was it was a perfect transition
because when you're putting the target packagetogether, you know, you you know
little things like where's the guys squirtto, what's the house made out of?

(21:19):
How many levels are their guards ortheir dogs, where's the l Z
at if you want to pull thatroute if you're going to go in by
a convoy or hum Vy you knowI E DS. You know, you
want to know all that ship.So, uh, that's that's what we

(21:41):
put together. And I remember gettinga phone call from one time from uh
some some green Berets I think hada bag dad Charlie Company, I've heard
I've heard of Charlie Company before andthen and another time works with Tenth Group.

(22:02):
But both those guys were like hey. They would call me like,
hey, who the hell are you? I'm like, what do you mean?
Did you put this target package together. I was like, yeah,
They're like, what's your background,man, because this is this is stuff
we need, and so I toldhim and it was interested because, uh,
the tenth Group guys actually knew guysthat I knew back at Team five,
So there was a lot of trustright away. Yeah. So yeah,

(22:26):
and the cool thing was is,uh, I'd say more times than
not, you know, they lookat you and you give them the intel
and you give them the package andthey look at you like you're coming with
us ship check and I bring myturk and that's what they want to hear.
Yeah. So so yeah, thosewere those were two different missions.

(22:48):
The one with the tenth Group guys. We were going after this guy that
they've been trying to get before Igot there, so he happened to be
We divided in the agents. Wedivided the area of operations around the base
into sectors. So if you orderedrocketed or someone got ambush or hit an

(23:08):
ied in that sector, it wasthose agents responsibility. Yeah, so that's
how we divided it up, andthat's how you took accountability instead of just
writing a munch of damn intel reportsand actually having something actionable, making a
difference on the battlespace. So guystook a lot of pride in that,
and gals, we had female agentsas well, took a lot of pride

(23:30):
in it, running your sources andstuff. So the guy that I wanted
to get after, these these SFguys were they were out of a fob
and I didn't even know that theywere out there. But I was working
with a first calv operations officer andhe's like, Hey, if you want
to really get this guy, theseare probably the guys you want to talk

(23:51):
to you to get after him.So we sent them my package and the
next thing you know, I'm upthere with these guys and the guy we
were going after man we called himKaiser. So's because every time we go
to catch him, he was gone. You'd find a hot suit bowl or
a cigarette still lit it and hewas gone, you know. And so,

(24:15):
uh, I think the first timewe were going to get him,
I had an informant near his villageand I had one outside of his village,
and these guys didn't know that Iwas working with both of them,
because that's the way he wanted todo it, so you could validate your
your intel. These guys decided like, yeah, yeah, we're going to

(24:36):
go in. We had an lZ to use some sixties to go in,
and we knew where the guys squirtedto the first time. The first
day of the mission was going togo down. I got a vote.
I got intel saying that there wasone of the bugger readers got killed there.
So they were having a funeral andI'm like, well, that's going
to be ugly because that's going tobring about three hundred botoger readers to the

(24:57):
funeral. And that's so about thetime I'm going to call the major of
the eighteen the phone rings and it'shim and he's like, hey, man,
are you hearing this. I'm like, uh, yeah, I am.
He's like, yeah, we don'tdo funerals anymore. I said,
check, you know another day.So we still ran around. The guy

(25:18):
had a pattern of life watching forhim. Where I wanted to get him
was there was this bridge that hewent to every Friday at noon and he
had he had to go over thebridge to go to his church. She
went to church every Friday at noonand he always had a bodyguard with him.
And that's where I wanted to gethim was on that bridge. I
was like, damn it. IfI was back in the teams and I

(25:40):
could take my sniper buddy out withme and a couple other guys for security,
we can just take care of businessright there. But it was a
kill or capture. Yeah, thatwasn't going to happen, right, Yeah,
it's pretty you know, it's likea ninety ten on that one.
So before before putting that package togethercompleting it, I actually also got introduced

(26:08):
to a j TACK Joint Tactical AirController tac PS, I guess Air Force,
and he was yeah, I couldn'tbelieve the ability he had. So
what happened was is we had wehad like a dozen predators on the base.
Well I never you know, Isaw him used a few times,
you know with the hell fire rockets, which was pretty cool. But this

(26:32):
guy was sitting there and he wouldcontrol them for a couple hours before they
landed. So they sat me withhim and all that pek on that you
would do, you know on anRNs team, you know that would take
you about three days. We didit about an hour. I was,
holy shit, are you kidding me? We're watching it like on video taking
pictures and coordinatess and everything else buildingthis package. So got that to the

(26:57):
guys and we said, okay,this day we're going. This is a
tough call for me because uh,we had the third I D. We
convoyed up with them. So wecleared our building of all our agents,
took everybody. We had three homev's that fell into their convoys, and

(27:21):
we went all the way up tothe fob that the special forces team was
at, and uh, everybody staysoutside. And then they also picked up
a bunch of Iraqi soldiers but didn'ttell them where we were going or what
we were doing, because you justyou didn't know who was who, right,
go inside, man, And itwas kind of intimidating. There was
the whole, the whole. Ateam was sitting at a table like it

(27:45):
was a staff meeting. I walkin with my turf and my other agent,
and they've got, uh, they'vegot some kind of a drone up.
We've got a predator up. Igot my I got two snitches on
the ground. We got COMMSS withone of them, so everything's looking good.
We've got black hawks are supposed tocome down from a base called Spiker.

(28:07):
They're supposed to pick us up andtake us over there. And I
guess the third idea, guys weregonna be the blocking force and we were
going in to the to the LZto get this guy. And guess what
it was Friday, right before church, right, so yeah, So so
like this is awesome, you know, and then all of a sudden,

(28:30):
we can't. We don't have contactwith my with my informant anymore. He's
gone. And then the helicopters areheld up from a sandstorm. Come out
a spiker to pick us up ontime. So I'm like fuck. And
then the next thing is I geta call from the j Tax saying,
hey, man, about three carsjust pulled up and a bunch of dudes

(28:53):
with ak ak's got out and somepeople came out of the house and got
in and they left. And I'mlike, well, crap, did you
follow him? Like yeah, wekind of, they followed. It was
a few miles away that they wentto. But I know nothing about that
spot. So I'm looking at themajor, uh, the the eight,

(29:15):
the A team boss, and he'slike, I'm He's like, what do
you want to do? Man,it's you're up. I'm like, son,
little bitch, there no pressure.Yeah. Yeah. So I'm looking.
Half of the team is looking atme like, let's go, man,
let's go. The other half islike, you know, the the
teams are just like, don't burnyour source, man, you know.
So I went back and I askedhim if where his comms were. He

(29:38):
took me in this room and theyhave all kinds of comms. Man.
I mean, it was like ahorseshoe around me. It's like Jesus,
which one do I pick? Youknow, to talk to my guys back
at the base. So I takenall the information. We've even got some
signette going on, right, andthe phone's there, and I'm like,

(30:00):
uh, I can't. I can'tgo and put these guys in harm's way
for a damn phone. Yeah,you know. So I walk out and
I feel like I'm giving a boardmission on a jump, you know what
I mean? Yeah, all theboys are ready if I go, and
you're just you do ye. SoI walk in and half the teams is

(30:21):
kind of like frustrated, and theother half team is like a good call.
And I look at the the eighteenboss and he's looking at me.
He's got kind of a smile onhis face like he's kind of relieved,
you know, like he's happy Imade that call. But I go outside.
Man, my team's pissed. They'reall ready to go, and I'm
like, look, man, andthey're talking to our intel sources to back

(30:42):
back at the home base, andI'm like, I'm not. I'm not,
you know, I'm not going torisk everybody's lives or something like that.
Man. I mean, this guy'sguy's a bad dude, no telling
me what he's got set up there. So everybody's pissed off at me.
And then the next morning they allmy intel's confirmed that yeah he came and

(31:03):
was picked up and taking away toanother place he wasn't there. Well,
so sounded like a good call inthe end there. Yeah, what a
what a stressful encounter. I mean, you know, from Izzy and MAI's
perspective, you know, we're ourperspective is from those guys sitting in the
teams right just waiting for the greenlight, like always the word, the

(31:26):
infamous word, you know that we'realways waiting for. So we have minimal
experience on your side, you know, building these target packs is the the
intel side of it. What wasthe most challenging thing about it. And
you know, in my experience,it seems like your experience by cutting this
down and you know, picking pickingthe the high road here, you know,

(31:47):
not uh not sending guys you know, to their to their death essentially
or possibly what's the hardest that thatop seems like it's more of a norm
than not. What was the mostchallenging thing about you know, trying to
get of the intel side, likegetting all these intel working with working with
snitches. You know, it seemslike there's a lot of moving pieces here.

(32:10):
Yeah, the big the big wordin this field is called synergy.
You know, you gotta have communicationfrom the guys that are going to action
it all the ways to the othertypes of intelligence that you're putting together.
Uh, just to finish up onthat guy. That is how bad that
dude was that Charlie for the onesthat called me up and said, hey

(32:34):
man, we're going up here tograb this one dude, and we saw
your target packaging. We're gonna passby, We're gonna grab that dude on
the way back home. I'm like, it's not gonna be that easy,
man. He's like, oh no, we do this all the time.
Don't worry about it. I'm like, I'm not gonna need that. We're
not gonna be I'm like, doyou need support from us at all?
He's like, no, No,we got this. We got this.
I'm like, all right, man, And you know, he asked me

(32:58):
questions about the target package and whyI was and all that stuff too,
and Uh, next morning I'm comingout of the gym and I got two
agents rolling up, going, heyman, they went after susday last night.
I guess they had junior scouts anduh that went in with him,
and I guess one of those guysgot shot in the chest, but he

(33:19):
got Kevin Laura and then one ofthe SF operators got his MBG shot off
by my gun and they Uh,he sword it out into the field that
I always told him that he goesout to, and then our base uh
set up a couple of fighters anddropped two five hundred pounders on him.
A right later. Three weeks later, that son of aficial turned up.

(33:45):
No where's that guy made? FreakingkeV Laren iron Man? Yeah, yeah,
so esus So Yeah, what number? Oh sorry, buddy, what
number packet were you guys on forhim? What was it like, what
were you calling him kaiser? Wasyah? Was it like Kaiser sixteen kays

(34:07):
are twenty twenty two? So Idon't even know what kaiser still the means.
I just know we titled that fromthe movie. Was it usually the
usual suspects? Yeah, the greatdouble over playing on anybody. You know,
it's yeah, convincing we didn't exist. Yeah, he's gone yeah,
yeah, And I had I hadhands on his we you know, it

(34:30):
cuffed up his his uh, hiscousins. I've questioned his, his wives,
his kids, and he taught themall how to lie. Man.
They all said the same thing.Mm hmmm. That was another thing,
you know. That's that's an interestingthing with with my team, Like I
because I was the junior guy,I was not privy to a lot of

(34:52):
the intel meetups and stuff because wehad sources, We had people that were
handed off to us from the previousteam. And so it's kind of like
when you like when the president firstgets in, you have to do like
a tour of all the agencies.Like when we first got into country,
I was at kr O West kindof in the north or you know,
north of our or Baghdad, uhand then so we'd have to do like
a tour. We'd have to goaround to the mook tars, we have

(35:14):
to meet all our sources. Andit was like a couple of weeks of
us getting handed off from the previousteam to like, hey, we're out
of here, but these guys arejust like us. This is the next
team. That's then you can trustthem, right, And so you had
to kind of like, you know, rebuild that rapport and that trust and
and hopefully have that trust a lotof these guys. I remember my team
started and said, you like,we're gonna we're gonna use these guys,

(35:37):
but we don't. It's hard totrust these guys, you know what I
mean, Like you could trust themas far as you could throw them,
uh, you know, absolutely.Yeah. And that's something we had to
worry about too, is agents gettingtoo close to some of our informants.
In fact, right before I left, the senior n CEO and the commander

(35:59):
we're thinking about doing a shake upand switching sources around on everybody mm hmm,
just just so nobody gets yeah,nobody gets too close, nobody gets
too comfortable or too familiar, rightright, Yeah, And some of those
guys over there were professional informants,man. I mean after our guys got
killed, we had some guys thatcame over OS. I has this team.

(36:22):
I don't know if they still haveit, but it was a it
was a great resource. They werecalled UH Anti Terrorism Specialty Team and they
they looked a lot like the HRTguys. Man. They were all UH,
probably early to mid thirties, allmature guys, all had in various

(36:42):
backgrounds, but all tactical and theyare Actually that team was started and trained
by a by a former s Fguy who came over US. I Mmm,
yeah, I think he was aUH. I think he left.
I think he left the special Coursesas a major and went over to OSI.
But he started that team up likeway before. I was in OSI.

(37:07):
But those guys came over to backfill. And these guys were solid,
man. I mean when we rolledout in the streets in Iraq, it
was like they were there, justthere yesterday. On the first op that
I went with him, I rememberwe were clearing this building and this this
kid comes across the street. Iguess he might have been in his early

(37:29):
twenties and he's yelling. One ofmy one of our ast guys' names,
and he's like, yeah, man, he's like, I can't talk to
you. You need to get outof here. He's like, my contact
information is still sad. But hewas one of his informants from a couple
of years prior. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing you had

(37:50):
to worry about too was as soonas and she is playing games against each
other. Yeah, they're always atwar. Yeah, tribes versus tribes stepping
on the screw each other over.Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah.
I mean the Middle East was justkind of, in my opinion, a
soup sandwich going over there. Likewhen I was in Syria, it was
like we weren't just fighting one warhere, oh wow, no, no,

(38:13):
oh yeah, it was like sixwars all happening. You talk about
you know, you talk about synergy, that place is absolute synergy of war
birds, ices, Shia, yeah, Russians, US Yeah. Yeah,
the courage, Yeah, all thosepeople. Ethnically speaking, they're all spread
out. But border wise, yougo over a border, you go they

(38:37):
go from being the good guys tothe bad guys, you know, because
they're just now we're in a differentcountry and you know, they're fighting,
they're fighting somebody over here while thereare allies over here. That was the
four curs. I felt so badfor the Curtis, especially what Turkey did
to them. Oh yeah, Andyou're like they're fighting, they're fighting for
the SDF and they're like, yeah, you'll get your land if you fight

(38:58):
for us. And you just inthe back of your mind you're looking at
him. You're like, dude,not getting anything. Yeah, wow,
you know one part of the onejust one thing, just kind of jumping
around a little bit. Uh.In the book, you talk about early
in your work with O s Iyou back here in the States. Uh,

(39:19):
somebody named Deveri Lane Taylor. OhGod, can you tell us a
little bit about that? Yeah,So hopefully he's still in prison, hopefully
justice. Yeah, it's terrible.Yeah, I want to hear about it.
Another reason it can't see my faceright now. Right he's in a
suit on him. I mean,there's other guys like him that hopefully are
still well, they're probably out,but Jesus. So you know when when

(39:45):
you when you're a new agent,you're going to do the typical uh,
death investigations and rapes, you know, sexual assaults and stuff like that.
Yeah. So I'm I live onthe base at Aglin, so I live
close to the hospital. So eventhough I'm not the agent on call,

(40:06):
somebody shows up at the hospital,they call me because I'm right down on
the street. Yeah. So Igot all those and a lot of times,
you know, it would be alot of our sexual assaults. For
a while, there were like somebodygot caught messing around on their husbands,
so all of a sudden, it'sa sexual assault and they're just like,

(40:27):
oh man, here we go again. You know, we're putting all these
hours in another jody in the military. My god, right. Yeah.
So I go down and I walkin and it's a it's it's a it's
a rape victim that they're telling me. So I'm expecting to see, you
know, you know, a dishoveleda woman. And I walk in and

(40:52):
it's a guy about my size,maybe bigger, and I'm like, holy
shit, and he's disheveled and he'supset. I'm oh man, as as
you should be. Yeah, ohman. Yeah. So the worst part
is is he's he's he's he's notactive duty. He's either guard or reserve

(41:14):
I can't remember. But he's alsohe's also a federal agent. I'm not
gonna say what agency, you know, but he's a he's a gun carrying
credential agent. But anyways, he'dbeen drugged and then driven someplace. Yeah.

(41:35):
So yeah, so it was itwas a bad scene all around.
I felt really bad. The bigthing I had to worry about is this
guy, you know, coming backonce I found out who was getting on
a plane and coming back with hisgun and his badge, because he can
get on a plane like that andcoming back there in business himself, you
know. So yeah, I hadto really talk to this guy like,
hey, man, just just letme do my job. Okay. I

(41:58):
know I can't imagine what you're goingthrough at all, but you know,
you got a family. Let's notmake it worse, you know, just
trust me. Yeah. So afterdigging into this for a little bit,
and this was all like no hightech stuff here, man, this is
all like gumshoe interviewing. And Imean I went down to getting a credit

(42:19):
card regime, a good old oldfashioned police work, yeah, getting statements
and stuff, and uh. Ittook me about a week and a half,
and different agents were rotating with mebecause they're like oh, you're never
going to find this guy. Butsome of them, you know, they
were they just hung with me justbecause you know, they're good teammates,

(42:43):
you know. Hm. So abouta week and a half into it,
you know, I narrow it downto this place and I finally get a
name. So I go back andI run his name and a picture comes
up and the agent with me hewas he was funny ship with anyway.
So he was always clowning around andscrewing with guys. And he took the

(43:05):
picture and he made it a screensaver on one of our civilian agents computer.
Yeah, because he did not hedidn't look right. I mean,
if you look, if he sawhis picture, he just didn't look right,
all right. So he comes backinto work and he looks at his
screen. He's like, Hey,what's Deby's picture doing on my computer screen?

(43:29):
And we're like, whoa this guy? So, come to find out
they've been you know, Yeah,he went to school with this guy,
to an officer school. Just sometimeswe send our civilians to these officers schools.
He went to school with this guy. So, come to find out
he's in our jurisdiction. He's nota civilian he's captain in the Air Force.

(43:52):
Oh man. Yeah. So wego and we get this guy and
I had to work with a localPDX. We wanted to arrest him out
in town and we get him in. Uh. First of all, they
didn't think I was gonna be ableto get a resta warrant for him.

(44:14):
And the judge that signed the arrestwarrant, she signed as fast as she
read it. She's like, forget this guy. You all right?
So we went out, we gotthe guy, we brought him in,
and then then me and this detectivethat we're going to interview him. You
know, back then it was stilldon't ask, don't tell the type thing.

(44:36):
So it was a fine line wehad to walk. It was such
a fine line that I had twoexperienced agents and two I think a DA
and a JAG and then that precinctslieutenant. We're all watching the interview on
video while we're in the room withthis guy. The guy go in with.

(44:58):
You know, OSI agents are purposepretty professional, pretty professional before they
do interviews. Eight, we havea plan before we go in kind of
dissect the mind of this person we'regetting ready to interview and figure out what's
the best way and had I hada female partner at the time, and
we were a great team because guysalways wanted to impress her, and I'm
like, I would be the badguy and then I'd let them tear into

(45:19):
me and then she'd make me looklike I was the stooge and they'd open
up to her. It worked great. So we had this guy, but
I had to do this interview witha one of the police detectives. And
this guy was old school man.I mean, like I don't know,
like the old seventies detective shows.And I was like trying to game plan

(45:40):
with him. He was like,yeah, right, whatever, We're just
gonna go in there, put somecigarette out, and we go and we
sit down. I'm like, uhshit, okay, here we go.
The tricky part was we had toread his rights, the Article thirty one
rights the military's rights, and heeaten the civilian rights member basically, your
your your your Miranda right, yeah, And what we don't want the guy

(46:06):
to do is lawyer up. Hmm. This guy. I'm gonna go out
guys soft, and this guy wantsto go out and hard right out of
the gate. And I'm like,son of a bitch, I'm never gonna
get this guy to to agree toto speak with us. But I was
able to land on my feet evenafter that. You know, got the
guy intrigued enough. You know,I kind of like, uh, pumped

(46:28):
him up a little bit. Youknow about who he was. He was
company Great Officer of the year.Oh my god. At the hospital that
I went and got that, Iwent to where the where the victim was,
he was company Great Officer of theYear. Yeah, so sorry,
terrible joking coming. At least youdon't need to get a mug shot for
him, just take his off thewall there for an officer. Yeah.

(46:52):
Yeah. So so anyways, wewe go through it and basically I tell
them we have more evidence than Ireally do, and he buys it hook
line and seeker, but I tellhim I'm on his side, and I
try to make it sound first hefirst first he denies, denies, and
eyes, and then I try tomake it sound consensual and he's all in.

(47:15):
So so we got him, youknow, once I found out after
that, I'm like, when Ibrought in, what was it? Something
came up. The agents were talkingin the hallway about a victim who had
came in about a month a monthand a half prior, and I wasn't

(47:37):
there, and I was listening totheir story and it sounded it's so similar
to the case that I was working, Like, I want to talk to
this guy. They're like, oh, you don't. And he was kind
of like that one of our youth, kind of like the CBS. It's
called the Red Horse in the AirForce, and these guys are really good
at what they do. And Igo, when I bring this guy in,

(47:59):
and I have a mug shot andback then you had to have like
I think it was six pictures,you know. And one of the agents
before I went in there to interview, was on the phone with our OSI
shrink, our psychologist, and Igo, hey, I want to talk

(48:20):
to him and tell him about thiscase real quick before you hang up.
So I talked to the psychologist.So I'm like, hey, I'm getting
ready to interview this guy. Andit's pretty traumatic. I guess it happened
a while ago, but I needhim to try to remember some stuff.
I think it's pretty traumatic for him. And he told me, he's like,
hey, well, you got togo back in that night before the
incident and make him start describing stuffin detail, so things have become more

(48:44):
vivid to him, and he remembersI said, okay, So I took
my six photo lineup and I'd alreadysent my sixth photo line about to the
other guy who positivity I died himthe federal agent who I did him.
We had to send it out tosome other OSI agents by where he would
and he ided him. So Ihad to worry about him coming back and
wanting to kill the guy. Andthen I'm interviewing this guy and I get

(49:07):
him going into details like the psychologisttold me me, and then I started
asking him to describe the suspect.And as he's got his eyes closed,
he's got his arms crossed, Islipped the picture of the six foto lineup
in front of him and he doesn'tknow it's there, and he opens up
his eyes and he falls out ofhis chair, and I'm like, what's

(49:28):
wrong, man? He goes,I just saw him, So I go,
oh, man, Yeah, SoI said, okay, if this
guy did this, you know,within a couple of months, how many
times has he done this before?Yeah? Dude. We put some feelers
out there and we went to thedifferent places that he was stationed. We
came back with twenty three victims.Oh my gosh. Yeah, m O.

(49:52):
He was like a repeat, youknow, same and everyone talk to
you. Man, it was thesame m O, the same every time.
Damn. That's absolutely crazy. Ifone thing watching Law and Order SVU
has top me is the MO isalways the same. Yeah. People don't
change, man. You see yougot this guy. Yeah, different because

(50:15):
a lot of these guys man,were like the same skin tone and building
as me. Oh he had likea type, he had his pipe.
Yeah, jesus, it was absolutelycrazy. Well hopefully, like you said
before telling the story, this guyis still locked up away fifty five years,
man, So fifty five fifty fiveyears and well hopefully somebody's doing it

(50:36):
to him in there. No,maybe he likes it. I don't know,
man, I don't know that dude'sdefinitely a top about it. Yeah,
he is definitely not a bottom ifhe's a top, right terms,
I didn't know the investigation bottle exactly. Yeah. My fiance loves uh drag
shows, so unfortunately I know allthese terms now, ye guilty bynociation.

(51:00):
But anyways, you know your book. One final question for you, because
you know this has been an amazingepisode and thanks again for being here.
Jack Kid. Your book, youknow, you talk about your Navy seal
experience, your os I, andthank you for sharing your you know,
your stories with us. But therewas one theme that seemed extremely evident,

(51:20):
and I think it's like the maintheme of the book, whether you intended
to or not, this is whatwe got and that's absolutely camaraderie. And
you've mentioned it in this podcast abouthow that's what you miss but you know,
me and Izzy being former military aswell, we talked about camaraderie a
lot. But you know, beforeyou go, we just wanted to ask,
like, what's your take on itand what camaraderie means to you.

(51:44):
Yeah, so it's it's when you'regoing to do something with people that you
trust, that you know that ifyou er, they got you and they
can trust you you that they knowyou have them. And I tell you

(52:05):
there's guys, you know, teammatesI worked with that know stuff about me
that nobody in the world ever willyou know. So it's hard, it's
hard to build. It's hard tobuild. But I think because of units,
like we belong to you guys,you know, you mean you do
bleed and sweat together, and youaccomplish things together even when it sucks.

(52:29):
When you come back to look ateach other and that's who you lean on.
And when it's great, you lookat each other. Then you buy
each other drinks. You know.It's Yeah, it's a certain kind of
bond that that comes with a certainpersonality, a combination of the personalities and
the circumstances that you go through together. It creates a certain type of bond
that you cannot duplicate, you can'treplicate anywhere else. Uh uh nope.

(52:52):
And that's yeah, that's that's thebiggest thing that I would miss is uh
is all that? But you know, you got some good memories. Yeah,
and you did some good man,You did some real you did some
real good like if only if onlyJefrey Lane was the only thing, you
know, like if that. Butobviously you got a lot of great examples
in the book. But you didsome good man, you did some good

(53:14):
out there. Appreciate it. Appreciateit. Sometimes sometimes it's better to be
lucky than good though. Yeah,I can, man, absolutely so.
Now you know, now you're teachingj RTC and out in North Carolina,
yep, you what kind of fulfillmentdoes that bring you? Because I know,
like doing the jobs, like yousaid, doing the jobs we've had,

(53:35):
we've had the camaraderie. We've gota lot of fulfillment out of that.
Do you do you get the samecamaraderie or I mean, excuse me,
do you get the same fulfillment outof teaching? Now? Then you
do actually doing the job. SoI'll tell you this, it was more
gratifying than I thought it would be. I mean, especially in the type

(53:57):
of school that I'm at. Opportunitiesto go to schools and more affluent areas,
but me, I work with anany any not right, And we
spend more time with each other thanwe do with our wives. I mean
our desk next to each other.So if we don't like each other,
it ain't gonna work, you know. Yeah. And we've been doing this

(54:19):
for quite a few years now.And you get these kids in here that
home life isn't good, have twonickels rubbed together. They're in trouble all
the time. But in the endyou go off and you see them accomplish
something huge, and they got apath and and and there are somebody and

(54:43):
they're contributing to society and they're proudof what they're doing. That's pretty gratifying.
Yeah, that's awesome, man,that's cool. That's absolutely It's like
you're like living a movie. Whatis it? Uh, it's like coach
Carter. You know, that's funny. You should say that. The guy
that I worked in here before meused to show that video to the kids.

(55:07):
It's good, it's true. Imean that's the thing about pop culture
sometimes, you know, when wecan connect with it, it sends a
really good message. It's just likewhen I used to teach my guys break
contact and I show them the bankexiting break contact scene from Heat. Oh
yeah, it's so good. Thattripped me out when those guys were making

(55:29):
those calls and moving like like whatthe hell? Oh yeah, they had
really got a military advisor. Butin that bank scene, the black security
guard that's shot, yeah, youought to remember that he was actually one
of my instructors when I went throughbuds. Oh really yeah, there the
Hollywood seal. Huh. Yeah,that's amazing. Well, Jack, thank

(55:52):
you so much for your time,your stories. Uh, you know,
being busy. I feel like we'vebeen looking at each other now and then
we both are on the edge ofour seats when your picture is glowing because
obviously we can't show your face.But thank you again for being here.
Is there any last minute things youwant to mention inserted Hunter, your new
book coming out? Cameron, Cameron, hold on, hold on, hold

(56:15):
on. We got a game here, man, Oh we have a game.
Oh I didn't see it. Ithought I thought we were strictly business
on this one. All right,Well, well let me tell you Jack.
We we always do a game atthe end of every episode, and
we have a game we'd like toplay for you. It's gonna be It'll
be simple, man, It'll bea lot of fun, I think.
But it's called this quiz will makeyou I rack your brain. Okay,

(56:39):
we can blame Chris for that horribleflame, Chris for that name. Uh.
I'm gonna ask you about a song, movie, or a show,
and all you have to do istell me if it came out before or
after we invaded Iraq in two thousandand three. So it's fifty to fifty.
It's just boring before or after,before after your two choices. So
the warm up question, this isyour example, the matrix before or after

(57:02):
we invaded Iraq? Before before?It's correct. That came out nineteen ninety
nine. Matrix came out, Okay, remember I was a senior. Yeah.
I only guessed that because I thinkthe guys were watching it on video
when I got there. There yougot memories, use them all right?

(57:24):
Good, so you got you gotthe idea, man. So this first
one question number one is the Wire? The first season of the Wire.
When did it come out before orafter we invaded Iraq? Oh that's a
close one, man, because theywere watching that like daily when I got
there. Yeah, Jesus, soit was already on video. I was
there in two thousand and seven.That's going to be tight. I'm gonna

(57:47):
say before. That is correct.It came out the first season came out
in two thousand and two. Thatclose, so close the year before.
Okay. Next one, the albumChop Suey by System of a Down Before
or after? Hmm, all right. Those are the guys that had that

(58:12):
crazy video in the desert, rightthey had the Armenian Boys Yep, yep,
bike up. I'm just gonna sayafter, just because the other one
was before. Oh not quite.System of Down Chop Sue came out in
two thousand and one. Okay,okay, yeah, that's all right,

(58:34):
that's all right. Next one comingup, Shooter the movie starring Mark Wahlberg,
or Marine Snipers to come out beforeor after? I'll say before,
oh, not quite came out intwo thousand and seven. Shooter came out.
Oh my god. I can remember. There's a certain set of movies
between two thousand and five and twothousand and nine that I will always remember

(58:57):
because that was I was like,oh, I was in North Carolina during
that time. I was out incart Lewis of the time. So they
based off a Gunny Hascock, didthey? Did they? I think his
character was yeah, because he waslike, man, yeah, he was
like a Marine Corps sniper. Yeah. The Shoe too with Brian Phillippy for
a little while. It's kind ofit's the same premise basically. But all

(59:22):
right. Next question, gold Diggeralbum by Kanye West or the the song
gold Digger by Kanye West? Dida count before or after? I have
no idea, Man, I'm nota I got a buddy that says there's
something about every guy that's dated Kardashian. Then they go into a curse.

(59:42):
Out of the Kardashian curse. Youeither either become a woman or you get
hooked on drugs. You go insane. Yeah so before, oh, not
quite after. It came out oftwo thousand and five, two thousand Oh
not the best. Okay, that'sokay, we got two more. Here
we go. The first season ofBreaking Bad. Jesus, I just saw

(01:00:10):
that about two years ago. That'sgood. One of the shows on television
when it was on what years yousay that came out? Well, you
got a guess, did it beforeor after? I see he's trying to
do some good old policeman. Let'ssee. God, none, none of
them are saying before. So I'mgonna try before again. Oh no,

(01:00:34):
I came out and try a littleword of advice. If you tried to
play the ad the odd game whereyou're like, oh, well he hasn't
done this, Chris say, Ijust took my promotion tests. Man,
if you try to play the oddswith Chris's games, you will fail because
I do it all the time andhe's it's not working. It's not working.
Yeah. Break The first season BreakingBack came out in two thousand and

(01:00:55):
eight. Two thousand eight, wow. Okay, next one, the last
one here for you, Lord ofthe Rings, the two towers before Jesus
Good Gravy. It's a close one. Yeah, close one. That's one

(01:01:15):
of that that little bald guy witha couple of whisper hair that's real gray,
right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's where we first
see Gollum. I thought you thinkyou're talking about King Theodin because he was
when he was like under control ofGrima worm tongue, he was all like
gray and great out. You know. So my daughter's a little freaked out

(01:01:36):
with that little gray thing. SoI want to say by the time she
was able to I'll say after I'msorry, my friend, two thousand and
two. First one came out intwo thousand and one. Yeah, one
year after yeah, one right afterthe other. I only know that because
I'm autistically hooked on Lord of theRing. Yeah, it's his favorite franchis.

(01:01:58):
Yeah. Well, well, Jack, you didn't do so well on
the game, but you have donea great service to your country. Yeah.
So nobody's perfect, but we weappreciate you all the other services that
you have provided to your nation.About as good as that as I am
at Korean and Spanish. There yougo. That's okay, man. Well,

(01:02:21):
if you did well, we can'tgive you anything anyways, So in
this case, it does not payto be a winner, is right?
Well, Jack, thank you somuch for joining us. The book is
Insurgent Hunter. Is that right?Correct? And by the time you're listening
to this, folks, it'll beavailable everywhere, so please go out and

(01:02:44):
check it out. It's a really, really amazing story. It reads kind
of like a spy espionage like thriller. But yeah, it's it's it's,
it's all there. So Jack,is there any place people can get a
hold of anything you want to likeplug or talk about up before we sign
off? No, if you wantto know more about the book or the

(01:03:06):
writing of it, you can goto Steven Templan's social media Steven Teman Okay,
yeah, just spelt just like itsounds common spelling. But I actually
knew him from buds, all right, so that's how we met up.
So he's got a lot of booksout there and people are familiar with his

(01:03:27):
work, so perfect. Well,Jack, thank you so much for joining
us. We wish you all thebest going forward, and thank you for
your service to this great nation ofours and all the work that you did.
Same to you, guys. Iappreciate its a good time, I
appreciate it. Well. We hopeyou guys enjoyed this episode of the Pop
Culture Field Manual podcast. All thesame, make sure you check out our

(01:03:51):
YouTube our new content, the FirstFormation with is He, the Debrief with
Myself. Check out our Patreon ifyou're interested in getting some exclusive content and
joining us on a monthly movie night, and as always, we will see
you on next week's episode is He. Cue music