Episode 4
We interview Steve Chambers, Urban Planning and Transport expert on the importance of:
- selling yourself as an expert
- saving time for self promotion
- investing in yourself
- finding your own way in, and
- creating success in new opportunities.
Steve is an advocate for charities of all sizes involved in the built environment and sustainable transport sectors. Whilst leading policy and campaigning roles, his portfolio career also includes being a lecturer and media spokesperson.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:12):
Welcome to the fourth episode of Portfolio
Cast. Today we're speaking withSteve Chambers. He is an
advocate of charities of allsizes involved in the built
environment and sustainabletransport sectors. Whilst
leading policy and campaigningroles, he has also been a
subject matter expert, which hasled to a portfolio career that
(00:33):
includes being a lecturer and amedia spokesperson. Welcome,
Steve.
Steve Chambers (00:37):
Hello,
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:38):
Hi. So in my introduction, I've just given
a flavour of what you do, andhave done, in your working
career. And the roles have beenmany and varied. I'd like to
jump in with a question on howyou have made your choices, what
has driven your portfolio careeralong this path?
Steve Chambers (00:57):
Okay, there's a couple of different things to
kind of balance in a portfoliocareer. For me personally,
although there's been a lot ofdifferent kinds of roles, doing
different things, being acampaigner, being an advisor,
being a lecturer, I've stuck totwo niche areas really: built
environment, urban planning, andsustainable transport. And I've
(01:18):
sold myself as an expert inthose areas, I haven't spread
that part to thin. Where I'vebeen super flexible is with what
the doing actually is. Andthat's where I've actually found
myself coming into roles that atthe beginning, I didn't
anticipate something I knew Iwanted to I wanted to become a
lecturer I wanted to do that. Ididn't know I wanted to be a
campaigner at the beginning thatthat kind of evolved that
(01:41):
presented itself. But all, andthis is a crucial thing, I
think, based on that subjectknowledge that I held myself to.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (01:48):
Yeah, and that specialism and we see it
again, again. And we actuallyadvise on that, during our
Catapult course, for example, isfind your specialism. Because
there are a lot of people in theworld, there are a lot of people
probably in your market unlessyou are specifically very niche.
But finding that specialism isgoing to be your strength,
right?
Steve Chambers (02:07):
I have, as my career's moved on, I've
identified areas that I thoughtwere useful for me to get into
because of where I wanted to goand I have broadened out. But it
was a very gradual evolution, itwasn't just spreading myself too
thin in terms of those things.
And kind of the reason I thinkI've had the reason of sticking
to that niche area is partlyit's easier to explain yourself
(02:28):
and promote yourself that way.
But what I think is moreimportant in choices, and more,
something you don't really see,if you look at someone's CV.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (02:38):
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (02:39):
You don't see two things, you don't see the
rate and you don't see thereliability of that work. And
actually, a lot of the choicesthat I've made have been about
the one thing I think is veryimportant for a portfolio career
is to have a bread and butterjob, something that's reliable,
it's maybe one or two days aweek that work's could probably
gonna be there for quite awhile, it's maybe at a lower
(03:00):
rate, but that's going to paythe bills. And it might not be
the thing that you're most into,don't do things you don't want
to do, but it might not be thething you're most into. And then
you can use your other days forthings that are higher rate,
because they're less secure.
They may be the more passionprojects for you. So you don't
see that when you look at acareer of a portfolio career
(03:21):
person, but those decisions areactually as important as where
is this taking me? What am Igoing to be doing?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (03:29):
Yeah, that balance between stability and
passion is something that wereally have to strive for.
Right? Because often it's yourpassion driving us. Also you
have that fear with stability,right? You go out to lots of
different roles and you say yes,a lot, especially in the
beginning, but that can lead youdown a path, which is harder to
(03:50):
maintain, perhaps.
Steve Chambers (03:51):
Yeah, I mean, well, the trouble is saying yes,
a lot and filling your time withwork is that may prevent you and
this is something I've learned,prevent you from having time to
promote yourself to look for newwork. The way I do it now,
because I've actually had twostints and a portfolio career -
I did it once, I went back intofull time for about two years
(04:12):
and came back out again - what Ido differently now is I only
programme four days of work. Thefifth day is self promotion, it
is looking for new business. Youthink about it, you're your
sales person, you're sellingyourself, you need to maintain
this level of work. And if I'mreally honest, what I did before
- I didn't programme five daysof work, I just took work and
(04:33):
did it. And I realised now thatwas a mistake. Very fortunate
that I enjoy what I do, but thatcan also be a curse because you
can be ending up working sevendays a week. By having that day
that is not working for clients,it's working for yourself -
making sure you have a goodwebsite - it gives you the
opportunity to do... for mepersonally, I will do media
(04:55):
appearances, not for client butjust presenting myself as an
expert that will generateinterest. Blogging just for me
not for clients that havesparked interest as well. And
just recording things that I'mdoing and presenting that to the
world. I use Twitter a lot. ButI started moving some of that
sort of personal update stuffaway from Twitter and onto my
(05:15):
own website. Because socialmedia, the way things surface, I
started spending time toactually update my own website,
to keep a record of that, tokeep a record of achievements,
of things I've been writing hereand there. I don't know how
common it is, for people today'sbut for me personally, it really
works to have one day a weekwhere I am promoting myself, and
(05:36):
I'm needing to then get what Ineed for my income for the other
four days. And that's no badthing. I think,
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (05:43):
I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
I think that's really greatadvice. Definitely something
that I found quite difficult, Ialways go back over trying to
find that balance, is that lifeadmin, and also that promotion
stuff is so key, but often getspushed down to the bottom of the
pile, it's almost too late. Butyou've then you've got a rush,
then you've got to pushyourself.
Steve Chambers (06:04):
It's infrastructure as well. It's
boring things like you know,having a really good email
system, having your cloudstorage sorted. Yeah, these are
the sorts of things you do onthat day, spending time to make
sure you have the rightequipment that you need. All of
this kind of stuff is aninvestment in yourself. And it
takes time, I don't want to bedoing it in the gaps of time I
have between other things andnot making good choices. And
(06:26):
going back to what are youselecting for the work that
you're going to do? If you'redoing that without time to
really think about it, thenyou're probably not going to
make the greatest choices. Andif you're fully programmed with
work, and maybe you made choiceswhere the rate isn't so high,
and you're unable to take on newwork and you think, "Oh, well,
I'm happy with what I've got, Idon't let this client down." If
(06:47):
you're creating that cushion oftime, that you have that much
more flexibility you can go forand get better work.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (06:54):
Absolutely.
We've spoken about passion. Andobviously being an advocate for
charities is a real passion ofyours. And I know from
experience of giving tocharities where it may be seen
as unreciprocated. However, Ioften get so much more from it
than others expect. What's thegreatest reward for you from
this kind of work?
Steve Chambers (07:16):
The work I'm doing is advocating for policy
change, trying to get governmentto do things differently. The
big rewards are few and farbetween that you do see that you
make change. So two years ago, Iproduced a report highlighting
the lack of funding for busservices outside of London,
great bit of timing, getting infront of the right people. My
(07:36):
report was cited at PrimeMinister's question time by the
leader of the opposition,incredible to see that
recognition. And then later downthe line, idt was a success, we
secured funding good so that busservices could be maintained and
improve. And I enjoy the wholeprocess of that the whole
process of producing research,getting coverage, do a lot of
(08:00):
media work, getting our storyout there. And then ultimately,
because that's the destination,is to make change, make change
in the world. And to see that isincredibly rewarding to me.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (08:13):
As you say, you often do a lot of media
work. And as an expert in yourfield, you're called upon for
this and whether that's whetheryou're speaking or whether
you're on TV or whether you'relecturing, what advice would you
give to someone who is lookingto create more of a presence
from speaking as part of theirportfolio career?
Steve Chambers (08:31):
Okay, I knew I wanted to become a lecturer,
media spokesperson, as anopportunity came up. But for the
being a lecturer, I know what todo it. I didn't know, however,
that I had all the skills Ineeded for it. So I invested in
myself is what I'm saying. I putmyself on a PGCE course for two
(08:54):
years, which is a teachertraining course. You can
actually be a lecturer with notraining whatsoever. But I
wanted to be the best I could beat doing that. And there was an
element of pragmatism, thegovernment were paying money at
the time for you to do thiscourse it was it made a lot of
sense. This was coming out ofthe 2008 financial crisis. So
that was when my portfoliocareer began. was one piece of
(09:16):
advice on getting a crisis is aperfectly good time to start a
portfolio career.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (09:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Steve Chambers (09:22):
And it was an opportunity that came up. I knew
I wanted to do it. I knew Iwanted to come in and do this
role, and I didn't want to berubbish at it. I wanted to be as
best I could be. And for me theway to do that was to invest in
myself. And I'm always learningin one way or another but that's
what I did at the time. I taughtsociology in sixth form college
or further education college inWest London in Ealing, and I got
(09:43):
my PGCE and I felt superconfident then going into
university. I'd had some offersto do teaching work at that
point by actually turned themdown. I need to have this
investment in myself. I want todo it right, I don't want to do
this and not you know not be sogreat at it. In my head teaching
with something I thought I wasgoing to do very much towards
the end of my career.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (10:02):
Okay,
Steve Chambers (10:03):
I'm thinking very much like a year has six
months, whatever. But I'm alsothink down the line, we're going
to work into what is normallyretirement. And we need to be
mindful of that, there's lots ofreasons for that not all
financial. If we're going to beactive for all this period of
time, we might want to actually,you know, do something. So I
thought this would be somethingI would do, then I had, but
obviously, I wanted to get allthe tools under my belt, I
(10:25):
wanted to have a have a stab atit, opportunities came up again,
I started teaching, and I lovedit. And I loved it because I was
doing really well at it. And Ifelt very confident about doing
it. My kind of advice there forthat is invest in yourself. Same
for the media stuff. As soon asit became apparent that I would
be called on to do that. I didmedia training. It's affordable,
(10:49):
I think for an individual toinvest in themselves. I think
that is absolutely 100% worthdoing. It was just a one day
course. But it taught meeverything that I needed to know
about that already had a littlebit of experience. And that kind
of helped. So yeah, my answer tothat is, is invest in yourself.
Yeah. And you will find thatthose two roles, a lecturer and
(11:12):
media spokesman or anything likethat will just be so much
easier, easy on yourself.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (11:18):
So moving on from lecturing, would you
recommend anybody doingsomething like media training,
to advance themselves or to, asyou say, invest in themselves,
to take themselves to the nextlevel, I guess,
I think if there's a real chancethat you're going to be doing
media inquiries, or if youalready started to do them, I
(11:39):
think that's the perfect time todo it. So when I did it, I only
just started doing it, it becameapparent I would be doing more.
And that training, it lasted aday, I was able to connect with
experiences that I'd alreadyhad. So I'd say that's the
moment to do it. But my thingwith training to teach and also
with the media is this wassomething that I didn't feel
(12:00):
super confident about it. Sothat for me was the time that I
knew I needed to do training,some people just can go off and
kind of do this, and be superconfident, happy with it, that's
fine, they have an innate thingfor it. But these experiences
for me anyway, tend towardsbeing nerve wracking,
potentially kind of experiences.
If you've got all your toolssorted, that's going to make
things a hell of a lot easierand remove a lot of that
(12:23):
pressure. So if you're someonewho does get nervous, or in
those kind of situations, doyourself a favour and do that
king of training set. And I'msure that's true for many other
high pressure, things like that.
make life easier on yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I think often, wemake that assumption that we
should know and should asterrible as we know, but we
(12:46):
should know how to do it. Firsttime off the bat. Whereas as you
say, like taking that time toactually invest in yourself is
so key. I'd like to go back abit and talk about how you
started your career because youstarted your career in
marketing, not yet withspecialism of town planning and
sustainable transport. How didyou get from there to here?
(13:07):
So I kind of went as far as Ithink I was gonna go in
marketing, basically. And I knewI wanted to do something
different. I wasn't quite surewhen I wanted to do looking
back. Now I know the structureof nine to five wasn't right for
me. But at the time, I was morefocused on the idea that I was
in the wrong profession. So Iwent back to university, I went
(13:29):
back to university at 29, I didan undergraduate degree. I
learned through theundergraduate degree, which was
social policy, that I wasinterested in urban issues,
things about the builtenvironment and transport. I did
a dissertation specialising onthat areas within the social
policy degree. And that meant Icould go on to do a master's
degree in urban planning. So Iused the master's degree as a
(13:50):
fine tuning tool, graduated fromthat out of into the financial
crisis. That meant that a lot ofoptions were less viable, full
time employment was less viable.
Because I been going down thatkind of specialism route.
Already at that point, you cansee the fine tuning of my
interests and my subject area. Iwas blogging, I was blogging
(14:13):
then. I was going to events, Iwas talking, invited to speak at
events because I was identified,even at that stage as a
researcher as having a subjectspecialism. And so I was self
promoting then invited to speakat things and then opportunities
came up, but they were parttime, they were advisors, they
were consultancy. Soeffectively, I started my
(14:35):
consultancy around 2010. Andthen as I said before, I knew I
wanted to get somewhere and Iwanted to I wanted to be doing
teaching. I wanted to be auniversity lecturer. And that's
how I spent some of my time, ineducation. I think I was using
the portfolio career as a meansto support educating myself.
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (14:56):
And then coming out of the PGCE and kind of
moving forward why I found isthe work that I've been doing.
So I was a consultant advisor. Isaw a campaigning job advertised
in my specialism area, veryniche in my specialism in
particular transport. And Inever thought of myself as
(15:16):
campaigner. But I read it andwas like, well, that's what I
do. This are myskills, you know,the communications, I already
have that for my marketingcareer. So even that career that
I abandoned has had value. And Irefer to it when it's useful.
And subject knowledge inparticular, because this is this
world, I'm talking about policychange, well, to change policy
needs to know policy. And Iapplied for it. And it was a two
(15:38):
day a week job, I got it, andthen I became a campaigner, then
the teaching opportunities cameup, and I was doing more. And so
that was maybe a three waysplit, lecturer, campaigner,
consultant advisor, which ispretty much what I am now. And
that's, that's how I got there.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (15:56):
Yeah, that's fantastic to hear. And
what I love about talking aboutpeople's journeys, is the fact
that a portfolio career neverreally is fixed. It can be what
you need it to be at whatevertime for example, you know,
supporting you through youreducation, but that's part of
your portfolio career, and thenlater, being able to get three
way split. And we've talked abit about it, obviously,
(16:17):
balancing your week, by havingthe opportunity and taking that
time to reinvest in yourself.
But how do you find balance andprioritise between your roles
between your responsibilities,whilst also creating that
work/life balance?
Steve Chambers (16:31):
Yeah, that can be difficult because clients
often like your availabilityevery day for them, rather than
setting aside "this is Monday,I'm going to work for you and
what I'm not gonna check emailsfor a week?"
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (16:41):
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (16:42):
They kind of bleed into each other. But that
is something that's really kindof valued. I think technology is
the answer. I use multiple emailaddresses, individual email
addresses for clients. So stuffis sorted that way, and
different cloud storage,ensuring that they don't bleed
into each other is what I'msaying.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (17:03):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (17:03):
I really keep them kind of separate. I'm not
quite sure how I juggler. I feellike just leaving enough time
and not having too much workreally helps. Because if I was
answering this question before,like the previous time, I was, I
was working like this. It waschaos if I'm really honest. I
did work, deadlines were due, Iwas going from one thing to
(17:24):
another, I was doing incrediblylong days. I was earning less as
well. That's the thing, I reallycannot stress that enough. If
you make better choices, youwill you will earn more. So you
know, working like that, havingtoo much work is just not a good
recipe. Finding it verydifficult to take holidays as
well, because of that kind of,you know, organising like that.
Now I'm much more disciplined.
I'm not especially setting asidedays of individual clients. I do
(17:48):
work, I will work for multipleclients across the time. Some
things have to happen at aparticular time - lecturing,
obviously, you know, you're inthe room at that time.
Interestingly, in the COVID era,I'm travelling less. And that
helps, I feel like I have moretime. So when I was like going
between clients and going tolecturing, wherever a lot of
(18:09):
time was spent travelling, notfrom you know, meals grabbed,
while travelling feels like thetheme of how my life was, and
there's less of that now. I'mtravelling a bit more for work,
which is lovely, but it's not.
It's not racing betweenmeetings. So that's helped. I
mean, honestly, I think theanswer I'm saying is don't give
yourself too much to do. Beorganised. I use very basic, a
(18:33):
Trello style, sort of taskmanagement. I think that works
works for me. But yeah, I reallydo think that the number one
thing is just don't overloadyourself.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (18:43):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's
really great advice. Andespecially for people who are
facing making that jump towardsa portfolio career. Is there any
advice that you would give, forsomebody trying to make the
decision of, should I stay mynine to five, or should I
actually make this jump? I meanthere's a lot of people at the
moment who are facingredundancy, or are on furlough
(19:06):
and not sure what's coming up oreven just not happy in what
they're doing? And I've realisedafter being stuck in it, and not
having, feeling not feeling likethey have a way out? What would
that advice be?
Steve Chambers (19:17):
Well, I've kind of got recent experience of
that. As I said, I went back tofull time work for two years, I
had two experiences where Ithought "Actually, this isn't
the right thing for me, I'mgonna go back to a portfolio
career." And it's really hard toset one up from scratch or while
you're in that employment fulltime. If you can, and I've seen
people do this. And this mightbe a good way if you can
(19:38):
negotiate going down to fourdays for a while and use the
fifth day, almost like I do tostart up, get your first client
and do something else. Whatever.
That's one way of doing it. Buthonestly, starting a portfolio
career is like someone who saysthey're gonna go on around the
world trip, and the hardestthing for them is to just buy
the ticket. Buy yourself theticket. And there's a lot of
(19:59):
anxiety about, you know,earnings and all that kind of
stuff. I mean, not everyone'sgonna be able to do this, I
know. But if you can try andfind a way to get your finances
sorted, so you could live withreduced income for six months.
And maybe not up to the levelwhere you really want to be for
(20:20):
a year, but six months of like,you know, really reduced income,
then maybe another six months ofnot quite where you want to be.
Allowing for that. That willactually help you. Because
you'll remove the anxiety andyou won't make bad decisions, so
you'll end up earning moreanyway, because you will make
better choices, you won't pickup work, and then not be able to
do the better thing becauseyou've, you've picked up
(20:41):
something else. But really, ifyou can get that six months
organised, if you're already inthat employment, maybe you need
to put some money aside, I knoweveryone can't do that. I know
it's incredibly privileged thingto be able to do that. But if
you can, it will remove thatanxiety, and you'll just enjoy
it more. It's not fun doing itwith anxious feel awkward,
(21:02):
because but because you lookterrible.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:10):
You absolutely do. Absolutely.
Steve Chambers (21:13):
And also one bit of advice I had recently which
which is good for everyone in aportfolio career, but especially
at the start. If you are notembarrassed, asking for your
rate then it's set too low. Andyou know, it's a marketing,
right, it's a starting point forconversation. If you're not
embarrassed, embarrassed askingfor this amount of money, then
(21:33):
you set it too low. You reallydon't sell you, I mean, let's be
honest, at the beginning of aportfolio career, you might make
choices that are not the same aslater on, you want to get some
work, you want to be in theworld you need to be in. Going
back to that idea of things thatare more stable, but maybe not
so well paid. Also look at whatis this organisation like, who's
(21:54):
in it, what's their network,networking is one of those
powerful things in a portfoliocareer. You might choose a gig
that gives you access to people,who, you know, projects that
might have an extended kind ofgovernance that has, you know,
influential people in aparticular area. That's good to
(22:15):
be part of, you know, so youmight make some decisions,
again, for a lower rate that arearound, not just stability, but
like, you know, where could I goon to next from this role? So I
really, really advise and verycareful choices around that
juggle these different - youneed to eat! But also, you know,
(22:37):
kind of where, where am I goingto go? Where could this bring me
on to next?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how do you
have a side hustle can work inso many different ways. And if
you can, like reduce your hoursdown to four days a week, and
then have that day to explore?
That's a brilliant option.
That's great advice. I founddoing work in the evenings and
the weekends to start my sidehustles and start my portfolio
(23:02):
career that way, worked for me.
Steve Chambers (23:04):
Yeah.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:06):
You do work long hours and long days. And
it's not sustainable. And that'sa great place to start. But
don't do it forever, because youget very tired. I guess that's
that's a piece of advice that Iwould give myself if I was to
restart my career at any point.
But is there anything that youwould do differently if you had
a chance to restart anywherealong your career path really?
Steve Chambers (23:31):
Yes. So the one thing as I say that I have done
differently is having that daykind of self promotion for new
business, I think, or a periodof time programming and having
that kind of in there. Again,the second time I did go back, I
was I was more chill aboutfinding work. I guess I know,
because I've done it before, andit only you know, it will work
(23:52):
out then. And you know what, Ithought it would take much
longer to get back where I wasbefore. It took six months.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:58):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (23:59):
It took six months to get back and earning
more than I was before, betterquality gigs, more respected and
in a lot of these, really valuedfor my contribution. It took me
six months.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:12):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (24:13):
I thought I gave myself a year. In my head I was
thinking this could take a year,you got to you know, prepare for
that. It didn't. So yeah, tryand be chill. You know, you've
got to be you will make badchoices if you're kind of
anxious. So that's that's onething I definitely did
differently. Being hotter on theself promotion, I was saying no
more. Some people might findthat a problem. But sometimes
(24:36):
you do have to say no, or, youknow, working out a way that
something is going to work foryou. And if it's not, then it's
not the right sort ofopportunity.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:44):
Yeah, that mean that's really important. If
you're not saying no then areyou saying how does this
actually work for me? So often,we just say yes, and then
realise it's not the right thinglater down the line, don't we?
Finally, and this is a questionthat I go back to again, again,
but it is something that a lotof people look to and
everybody's looking for the, forthe answer on how to succeed.
(25:08):
Naturally, that looks differentfor all of us. How do you define
success? where you are in yourcareer now? And does that look
any different to how it did inthe past?
Steve Chambers (25:21):
How do I define success? I'm thinking a lot
about where I'm going next now.
So one thing I've gotten intorecently is I've started
exploring directorships of likeorganisations and I looked for
things that I wanted to kind ofexpand into, that were useful
for me, or I could bringsomething there. So success for
me now is kind of what newopportunities are being yielded
(25:45):
by my work.
Yeah,I get bored quickly. So that's
something I've learned aboutmyself. That's why I'm in a
portfolio career. And I'veactually learned that I need to
start very early thinking aboutthe next thing because heaven
help me if I get to to aposition where I am - okay, I'm
really bored now - becausethat's disastrous. So having
that kind of thing, a bitearlier, thinking about that...
I'm very lucky, opportunities docome to me, I'm actually a
(26:09):
quite...where I talk about selfpromotion, that's marketing -
I'm actually quite lazysalesman, I'm not great about
going out there. I like whenopportunities come to me. I
should do more in that area. Butyou know, we are where we are.
But for me, it is about lookingat the opportunities that I have
coming in and are - and are theywhere I want to be? Is it going
to be interesting for me? Is itcan be fairly remunerated? That
(26:31):
to me is success, because I'menjoying the steps on the way
and I want to be doing things infuture that are enjoyable, that
success for me, I think really,keeping it going in that way.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (26:46):
Yeah, that's, that's really good
advice. And this wholeconversation, thank you so much
for your time, because there'sbeen so many snippets of
brilliant advice that I thinkit's going to help so many
people who are already in aportfolio career but looking to
maybe restart one or get intoone now. So yeah, thank you so
much for your time. I thinkwe're gonna wrap up there. But I
(27:07):
wish you every success with allyour next ventures.
Steve Chambers (27:10):
Thank you.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (27:11):
Thanks very much.
Welcome to the fourth episode of Portfolio
Cast. Today we're speaking withSteve Chambers. He is an
advocate of charities of allsizes involved in the built
environment and sustainabletransport sectors. Whilst
leading policy and campaigningroles, he has also been a
subject matter expert, which hasled to a portfolio career that
(00:33):
includes being a lecturer and amedia spokesperson. Welcome,
Steve.
Steve Chambers (00:37):
Hello,
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:38):
Hi. So in my introduction, I've just given
a flavour of what you do, andhave done, in your working
career. And the roles have beenmany and varied. I'd like to
jump in with a question on howyou have made your choices, what
has driven your portfolio careeralong this path?
Steve Chambers (00:57):
Okay, there's a couple of different things to
kind of balance in a portfoliocareer. For me personally,
although there's been a lot ofdifferent kinds of roles, doing
different things, being acampaigner, being an advisor,
being a lecturer, I've stuck totwo niche areas really: built
environment, urban planning, andsustainable transport. And I've
(01:18):
sold myself as an expert inthose areas, I haven't spread
that part to thin. Where I'vebeen super flexible is with what
the doing actually is. Andthat's where I've actually found
myself coming into roles that atthe beginning, I didn't
anticipate something I knew Iwanted to I wanted to become a
lecturer I wanted to do that. Ididn't know I wanted to be a
campaigner at the beginning thatthat kind of evolved that
(01:41):
presented itself. But all, andthis is a crucial thing, I
think, based on that subjectknowledge that I held myself to.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (01:48):
Yeah, and that specialism and we see it
again, again. And we actuallyadvise on that, during our
Catapult course, for example, isfind your specialism. Because
there are a lot of people in theworld, there are a lot of people
probably in your market unlessyou are specifically very niche.
But finding that specialism isgoing to be your strength,
right?
Steve Chambers (02:07):
I have, as my career's moved on, I've
identified areas that I thoughtwere useful for me to get into
because of where I wanted to goand I have broadened out. But it
was a very gradual evolution, itwasn't just spreading myself too
thin in terms of those things.
And kind of the reason I thinkI've had the reason of sticking
to that niche area is partlyit's easier to explain yourself
(02:28):
and promote yourself that way.
But what I think is moreimportant in choices, and more,
something you don't really see,if you look at someone's CV.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (02:38):
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (02:39):
You don't see two things, you don't see the
rate and you don't see thereliability of that work. And
actually, a lot of the choicesthat I've made have been about
the one thing I think is veryimportant for a portfolio career
is to have a bread and butterjob, something that's reliable,
it's maybe one or two days aweek that work's could probably
gonna be there for quite awhile, it's maybe at a lower
(03:00):
rate, but that's going to paythe bills. And it might not be
the thing that you're most into,don't do things you don't want
to do, but it might not be thething you're most into. And then
you can use your other days forthings that are higher rate,
because they're less secure.
They may be the more passionprojects for you. So you don't
see that when you look at acareer of a portfolio career
(03:21):
person, but those decisions areactually as important as where
is this taking me? What am Igoing to be doing?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (03:29):
Yeah, that balance between stability and
passion is something that wereally have to strive for.
Right? Because often it's yourpassion driving us. Also you
have that fear with stability,right? You go out to lots of
different roles and you say yes,a lot, especially in the
beginning, but that can lead youdown a path, which is harder to
(03:50):
maintain, perhaps.
Steve Chambers (03:51):
Yeah, I mean, well, the trouble is saying yes,
a lot and filling your time withwork is that may prevent you and
this is something I've learned,prevent you from having time to
promote yourself to look for newwork. The way I do it now,
because I've actually had twostints and a portfolio career -
I did it once, I went back intofull time for about two years
(04:12):
and came back out again - what Ido differently now is I only
programme four days of work. Thefifth day is self promotion, it
is looking for new business. Youthink about it, you're your
sales person, you're sellingyourself, you need to maintain
this level of work. And if I'mreally honest, what I did before
- I didn't programme five daysof work, I just took work and
(04:33):
did it. And I realised now thatwas a mistake. Very fortunate
that I enjoy what I do, but thatcan also be a curse because you
can be ending up working sevendays a week. By having that day
that is not working for clients,it's working for yourself -
making sure you have a goodwebsite - it gives you the
opportunity to do... for mepersonally, I will do media
(04:55):
appearances, not for client butjust presenting myself as an
expert that will generateinterest. Blogging just for me
not for clients that havesparked interest as well. And
just recording things that I'mdoing and presenting that to the
world. I use Twitter a lot. ButI started moving some of that
sort of personal update stuffaway from Twitter and onto my
(05:15):
own website. Because socialmedia, the way things surface, I
started spending time toactually update my own website,
to keep a record of that, tokeep a record of achievements,
of things I've been writing hereand there. I don't know how
common it is, for people today'sbut for me personally, it really
works to have one day a weekwhere I am promoting myself, and
(05:36):
I'm needing to then get what Ineed for my income for the other
four days. And that's no badthing. I think,
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (05:43):
I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
I think that's really greatadvice. Definitely something
that I found quite difficult, Ialways go back over trying to
find that balance, is that lifeadmin, and also that promotion
stuff is so key, but often getspushed down to the bottom of the
pile, it's almost too late. Butyou've then you've got a rush,
then you've got to pushyourself.
Steve Chambers (06:04):
It's infrastructure as well. It's
boring things like you know,having a really good email
system, having your cloudstorage sorted. Yeah, these are
the sorts of things you do onthat day, spending time to make
sure you have the rightequipment that you need. All of
this kind of stuff is aninvestment in yourself. And it
takes time, I don't want to bedoing it in the gaps of time I
have between other things andnot making good choices. And
(06:26):
going back to what are youselecting for the work that
you're going to do? If you'redoing that without time to
really think about it, thenyou're probably not going to
make the greatest choices. Andif you're fully programmed with
work, and maybe you made choiceswhere the rate isn't so high,
and you're unable to take on newwork and you think, "Oh, well,
I'm happy with what I've got, Idon't let this client down." If
(06:47):
you're creating that cushion oftime, that you have that much
more flexibility you can go forand get better work.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (06:54):
Absolutely.
We've spoken about passion. Andobviously being an advocate for
charities is a real passion ofyours. And I know from
experience of giving tocharities where it may be seen
as unreciprocated. However, Ioften get so much more from it
than others expect. What's thegreatest reward for you from
this kind of work?
Steve Chambers (07:16):
The work I'm doing is advocating for policy
change, trying to get governmentto do things differently. The
big rewards are few and farbetween that you do see that you
make change. So two years ago, Iproduced a report highlighting
the lack of funding for busservices outside of London,
great bit of timing, getting infront of the right people. My
(07:36):
report was cited at PrimeMinister's question time by the
leader of the opposition,incredible to see that
recognition. And then later downthe line, idt was a success, we
secured funding good so that busservices could be maintained and
improve. And I enjoy the wholeprocess of that the whole
process of producing research,getting coverage, do a lot of
(08:00):
media work, getting our storyout there. And then ultimately,
because that's the destination,is to make change, make change
in the world. And to see that isincredibly rewarding to me.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (08:13):
As you say, you often do a lot of media
work. And as an expert in yourfield, you're called upon for
this and whether that's whetheryou're speaking or whether
you're on TV or whether you'relecturing, what advice would you
give to someone who is lookingto create more of a presence
from speaking as part of theirportfolio career?
Steve Chambers (08:31):
Okay, I knew I wanted to become a lecturer,
media spokesperson, as anopportunity came up. But for the
being a lecturer, I know what todo it. I didn't know, however,
that I had all the skills Ineeded for it. So I invested in
myself is what I'm saying. I putmyself on a PGCE course for two
(08:54):
years, which is a teachertraining course. You can
actually be a lecturer with notraining whatsoever. But I
wanted to be the best I could beat doing that. And there was an
element of pragmatism, thegovernment were paying money at
the time for you to do thiscourse it was it made a lot of
sense. This was coming out ofthe 2008 financial crisis. So
that was when my portfoliocareer began. was one piece of
(09:16):
advice on getting a crisis is aperfectly good time to start a
portfolio career.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (09:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Steve Chambers (09:22):
And it was an opportunity that came up. I knew
I wanted to do it. I knew Iwanted to come in and do this
role, and I didn't want to berubbish at it. I wanted to be as
best I could be. And for me theway to do that was to invest in
myself. And I'm always learningin one way or another but that's
what I did at the time. I taughtsociology in sixth form college
or further education college inWest London in Ealing, and I got
(09:43):
my PGCE and I felt superconfident then going into
university. I'd had some offersto do teaching work at that
point by actually turned themdown. I need to have this
investment in myself. I want todo it right, I don't want to do
this and not you know not be sogreat at it. In my head teaching
with something I thought I wasgoing to do very much towards
the end of my career.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (10:02):
Okay,
Steve Chambers (10:03):
I'm thinking very much like a year has six
months, whatever. But I'm alsothink down the line, we're going
to work into what is normallyretirement. And we need to be
mindful of that, there's lots ofreasons for that not all
financial. If we're going to beactive for all this period of
time, we might want to actually,you know, do something. So I
thought this would be somethingI would do, then I had, but
obviously, I wanted to get allthe tools under my belt, I
(10:25):
wanted to have a have a stab atit, opportunities came up again,
I started teaching, and I lovedit. And I loved it because I was
doing really well at it. And Ifelt very confident about doing
it. My kind of advice there forthat is invest in yourself. Same
for the media stuff. As soon asit became apparent that I would
be called on to do that. I didmedia training. It's affordable,
(10:49):
I think for an individual toinvest in themselves. I think
that is absolutely 100% worthdoing. It was just a one day
course. But it taught meeverything that I needed to know
about that already had a littlebit of experience. And that kind
of helped. So yeah, my answer tothat is, is invest in yourself.
Yeah. And you will find thatthose two roles, a lecturer and
(11:12):
media spokesman or anything likethat will just be so much
easier, easy on yourself.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (11:18):
So moving on from lecturing, would you
recommend anybody doingsomething like media training,
to advance themselves or to, asyou say, invest in themselves,
to take themselves to the nextlevel, I guess,
I think if there's a real chancethat you're going to be doing
media inquiries, or if youalready started to do them, I
(11:39):
think that's the perfect time todo it. So when I did it, I only
just started doing it, it becameapparent I would be doing more.
And that training, it lasted aday, I was able to connect with
experiences that I'd alreadyhad. So I'd say that's the
moment to do it. But my thingwith training to teach and also
with the media is this wassomething that I didn't feel
(12:00):
super confident about it. Sothat for me was the time that I
knew I needed to do training,some people just can go off and
kind of do this, and be superconfident, happy with it, that's
fine, they have an innate thingfor it. But these experiences
for me anyway, tend towardsbeing nerve wracking,
potentially kind of experiences.
If you've got all your toolssorted, that's going to make
things a hell of a lot easierand remove a lot of that
(12:23):
pressure. So if you're someonewho does get nervous, or in
those kind of situations, doyourself a favour and do that
king of training set. And I'msure that's true for many other
high pressure, things like that.
make life easier on yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I think often, wemake that assumption that we
should know and should asterrible as we know, but we
(12:46):
should know how to do it. Firsttime off the bat. Whereas as you
say, like taking that time toactually invest in yourself is
so key. I'd like to go back abit and talk about how you
started your career because youstarted your career in
marketing, not yet withspecialism of town planning and
sustainable transport. How didyou get from there to here?
(13:07):
So I kind of went as far as Ithink I was gonna go in
marketing, basically. And I knewI wanted to do something
different. I wasn't quite surewhen I wanted to do looking
back. Now I know the structureof nine to five wasn't right for
me. But at the time, I was morefocused on the idea that I was
in the wrong profession. So Iwent back to university, I went
(13:29):
back to university at 29, I didan undergraduate degree. I
learned through theundergraduate degree, which was
social policy, that I wasinterested in urban issues,
things about the builtenvironment and transport. I did
a dissertation specialising onthat areas within the social
policy degree. And that meant Icould go on to do a master's
degree in urban planning. So Iused the master's degree as a
(13:50):
fine tuning tool, graduated fromthat out of into the financial
crisis. That meant that a lot ofoptions were less viable, full
time employment was less viable.
Because I been going down thatkind of specialism route.
Already at that point, you cansee the fine tuning of my
interests and my subject area. Iwas blogging, I was blogging
(14:13):
then. I was going to events, Iwas talking, invited to speak at
events because I was identified,even at that stage as a
researcher as having a subjectspecialism. And so I was self
promoting then invited to speakat things and then opportunities
came up, but they were parttime, they were advisors, they
were consultancy. Soeffectively, I started my
(14:35):
consultancy around 2010. Andthen as I said before, I knew I
wanted to get somewhere and Iwanted to I wanted to be doing
teaching. I wanted to be auniversity lecturer. And that's
how I spent some of my time, ineducation. I think I was using
the portfolio career as a meansto support educating myself.
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (14:56):
And then coming out of the PGCE and kind of
moving forward why I found isthe work that I've been doing.
So I was a consultant advisor. Isaw a campaigning job advertised
in my specialism area, veryniche in my specialism in
particular transport. And Inever thought of myself as
(15:16):
campaigner. But I read it andwas like, well, that's what I
do. This are myskills, you know,the communications, I already
have that for my marketingcareer. So even that career that
I abandoned has had value. And Irefer to it when it's useful.
And subject knowledge inparticular, because this is this
world, I'm talking about policychange, well, to change policy
needs to know policy. And Iapplied for it. And it was a two
(15:38):
day a week job, I got it, andthen I became a campaigner, then
the teaching opportunities cameup, and I was doing more. And so
that was maybe a three waysplit, lecturer, campaigner,
consultant advisor, which ispretty much what I am now. And
that's, that's how I got there.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (15:56):
Yeah, that's fantastic to hear. And
what I love about talking aboutpeople's journeys, is the fact
that a portfolio career neverreally is fixed. It can be what
you need it to be at whatevertime for example, you know,
supporting you through youreducation, but that's part of
your portfolio career, and thenlater, being able to get three
way split. And we've talked abit about it, obviously,
(16:17):
balancing your week, by havingthe opportunity and taking that
time to reinvest in yourself.
But how do you find balance andprioritise between your roles
between your responsibilities,whilst also creating that
work/life balance?
Steve Chambers (16:31):
Yeah, that can be difficult because clients
often like your availabilityevery day for them, rather than
setting aside "this is Monday,I'm going to work for you and
what I'm not gonna check emailsfor a week?"
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (16:41):
Yeah.
Steve Chambers (16:42):
They kind of bleed into each other. But that
is something that's really kindof valued. I think technology is
the answer. I use multiple emailaddresses, individual email
addresses for clients. So stuffis sorted that way, and
different cloud storage,ensuring that they don't bleed
into each other is what I'msaying.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (17:03):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (17:03):
I really keep them kind of separate. I'm not
quite sure how I juggler. I feellike just leaving enough time
and not having too much workreally helps. Because if I was
answering this question before,like the previous time, I was, I
was working like this. It waschaos if I'm really honest. I
did work, deadlines were due, Iwas going from one thing to
(17:24):
another, I was doing incrediblylong days. I was earning less as
well. That's the thing, I reallycannot stress that enough. If
you make better choices, youwill you will earn more. So you
know, working like that, havingtoo much work is just not a good
recipe. Finding it verydifficult to take holidays as
well, because of that kind of,you know, organising like that.
Now I'm much more disciplined.
I'm not especially setting asidedays of individual clients. I do
(17:48):
work, I will work for multipleclients across the time. Some
things have to happen at aparticular time - lecturing,
obviously, you know, you're inthe room at that time.
Interestingly, in the COVID era,I'm travelling less. And that
helps, I feel like I have moretime. So when I was like going
between clients and going tolecturing, wherever a lot of
(18:09):
time was spent travelling, notfrom you know, meals grabbed,
while travelling feels like thetheme of how my life was, and
there's less of that now. I'mtravelling a bit more for work,
which is lovely, but it's not.
It's not racing betweenmeetings. So that's helped. I
mean, honestly, I think theanswer I'm saying is don't give
yourself too much to do. Beorganised. I use very basic, a
(18:33):
Trello style, sort of taskmanagement. I think that works
works for me. But yeah, I reallydo think that the number one
thing is just don't overloadyourself.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (18:43):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's
really great advice. Andespecially for people who are
facing making that jump towardsa portfolio career. Is there any
advice that you would give, forsomebody trying to make the
decision of, should I stay mynine to five, or should I
actually make this jump? I meanthere's a lot of people at the
moment who are facingredundancy, or are on furlough
(19:06):
and not sure what's coming up oreven just not happy in what
they're doing? And I've realisedafter being stuck in it, and not
having, feeling not feeling likethey have a way out? What would
that advice be?
Steve Chambers (19:17):
Well, I've kind of got recent experience of
that. As I said, I went back tofull time work for two years, I
had two experiences where Ithought "Actually, this isn't
the right thing for me, I'mgonna go back to a portfolio
career." And it's really hard toset one up from scratch or while
you're in that employment fulltime. If you can, and I've seen
people do this. And this mightbe a good way if you can
(19:38):
negotiate going down to fourdays for a while and use the
fifth day, almost like I do tostart up, get your first client
and do something else. Whatever.
That's one way of doing it. Buthonestly, starting a portfolio
career is like someone who saysthey're gonna go on around the
world trip, and the hardestthing for them is to just buy
the ticket. Buy yourself theticket. And there's a lot of
(19:59):
anxiety about, you know,earnings and all that kind of
stuff. I mean, not everyone'sgonna be able to do this, I
know. But if you can try andfind a way to get your finances
sorted, so you could live withreduced income for six months.
And maybe not up to the levelwhere you really want to be for
(20:20):
a year, but six months of like,you know, really reduced income,
then maybe another six months ofnot quite where you want to be.
Allowing for that. That willactually help you. Because
you'll remove the anxiety andyou won't make bad decisions, so
you'll end up earning moreanyway, because you will make
better choices, you won't pickup work, and then not be able to
do the better thing becauseyou've, you've picked up
(20:41):
something else. But really, ifyou can get that six months
organised, if you're already inthat employment, maybe you need
to put some money aside, I knoweveryone can't do that. I know
it's incredibly privileged thingto be able to do that. But if
you can, it will remove thatanxiety, and you'll just enjoy
it more. It's not fun doing itwith anxious feel awkward,
(21:02):
because but because you lookterrible.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:10):
You absolutely do. Absolutely.
Steve Chambers (21:13):
And also one bit of advice I had recently which
which is good for everyone in aportfolio career, but especially
at the start. If you are notembarrassed, asking for your
rate then it's set too low. Andyou know, it's a marketing,
right, it's a starting point forconversation. If you're not
embarrassed, embarrassed askingfor this amount of money, then
(21:33):
you set it too low. You reallydon't sell you, I mean, let's be
honest, at the beginning of aportfolio career, you might make
choices that are not the same aslater on, you want to get some
work, you want to be in theworld you need to be in. Going
back to that idea of things thatare more stable, but maybe not
so well paid. Also look at whatis this organisation like, who's
(21:54):
in it, what's their network,networking is one of those
powerful things in a portfoliocareer. You might choose a gig
that gives you access to people,who, you know, projects that
might have an extended kind ofgovernance that has, you know,
influential people in aparticular area. That's good to
(22:15):
be part of, you know, so youmight make some decisions,
again, for a lower rate that arearound, not just stability, but
like, you know, where could I goon to next from this role? So I
really, really advise and verycareful choices around that
juggle these different - youneed to eat! But also, you know,
(22:37):
kind of where, where am I goingto go? Where could this bring me
on to next?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how do you
have a side hustle can work inso many different ways. And if
you can, like reduce your hoursdown to four days a week, and
then have that day to explore?
That's a brilliant option.
That's great advice. I founddoing work in the evenings and
the weekends to start my sidehustles and start my portfolio
(23:02):
career that way, worked for me.
Steve Chambers (23:04):
Yeah.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:06):
You do work long hours and long days. And
it's not sustainable. And that'sa great place to start. But
don't do it forever, because youget very tired. I guess that's
that's a piece of advice that Iwould give myself if I was to
restart my career at any point.
But is there anything that youwould do differently if you had
a chance to restart anywherealong your career path really?
Steve Chambers (23:31):
Yes. So the one thing as I say that I have done
differently is having that daykind of self promotion for new
business, I think, or a periodof time programming and having
that kind of in there. Again,the second time I did go back, I
was I was more chill aboutfinding work. I guess I know,
because I've done it before, andit only you know, it will work
(23:52):
out then. And you know what, Ithought it would take much
longer to get back where I wasbefore. It took six months.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:58):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (23:59):
It took six months to get back and earning
more than I was before, betterquality gigs, more respected and
in a lot of these, really valuedfor my contribution. It took me
six months.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:12):
Yeah,
Steve Chambers (24:13):
I thought I gave myself a year. In my head I was
thinking this could take a year,you got to you know, prepare for
that. It didn't. So yeah, tryand be chill. You know, you've
got to be you will make badchoices if you're kind of
anxious. So that's that's onething I definitely did
differently. Being hotter on theself promotion, I was saying no
more. Some people might findthat a problem. But sometimes
(24:36):
you do have to say no, or, youknow, working out a way that
something is going to work foryou. And if it's not, then it's
not the right sort ofopportunity.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:44):
Yeah, that mean that's really important. If
you're not saying no then areyou saying how does this
actually work for me? So often,we just say yes, and then
realise it's not the right thinglater down the line, don't we?
Finally, and this is a questionthat I go back to again, again,
but it is something that a lotof people look to and
everybody's looking for the, forthe answer on how to succeed.
(25:08):
Naturally, that looks differentfor all of us. How do you define
success? where you are in yourcareer now? And does that look
any different to how it did inthe past?
Steve Chambers (25:21):
How do I define success? I'm thinking a lot
about where I'm going next now.
So one thing I've gotten intorecently is I've started
exploring directorships of likeorganisations and I looked for
things that I wanted to kind ofexpand into, that were useful
for me, or I could bringsomething there. So success for
me now is kind of what newopportunities are being yielded
(25:45):
by my work.
Yeah,I get bored quickly. So that's
something I've learned aboutmyself. That's why I'm in a
portfolio career. And I'veactually learned that I need to
start very early thinking aboutthe next thing because heaven
help me if I get to to aposition where I am - okay, I'm
really bored now - becausethat's disastrous. So having
that kind of thing, a bitearlier, thinking about that...
I'm very lucky, opportunities docome to me, I'm actually a
(26:09):
quite...where I talk about selfpromotion, that's marketing -
I'm actually quite lazysalesman, I'm not great about
going out there. I like whenopportunities come to me. I
should do more in that area. Butyou know, we are where we are.
But for me, it is about lookingat the opportunities that I have
coming in and are - and are theywhere I want to be? Is it going
to be interesting for me? Is itcan be fairly remunerated? That
(26:31):
to me is success, because I'menjoying the steps on the way
and I want to be doing things infuture that are enjoyable, that
success for me, I think really,keeping it going in that way.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (26:46):
Yeah, that's, that's really good
advice. And this wholeconversation, thank you so much
for your time, because there'sbeen so many snippets of
brilliant advice that I thinkit's going to help so many
people who are already in aportfolio career but looking to
maybe restart one or get intoone now. So yeah, thank you so
much for your time. I thinkwe're gonna wrap up there. But I
(27:07):
wish you every success with allyour next ventures.
Steve Chambers (27:10):
Thank you.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (27:11):
Thanks very much.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com