PortfolioCast from The Portfolio Collective: Ep.6 with Wellbeing & Business Consultant Cara de Lange
November 14, 2020 • 29 mins
Episode 6
We interview Cara de Lange, on:
- creating your own schedule to avoid burnout
- lockdown and the acceptance commitment method
- getting perspective on loneliness
- dialling your career up and down
- and how it takes a tribe.
With her career foundations in business administration for global organisations including Google, Cara has taken her Mental Health advocacy to the next level, continuing her portfolio career as a wellbeing and business consultant, founder, author, and change maker.
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Episode Transcript
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Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:10):
Welcome to the sixth episode of
PortfolioCast. Today we'respeaking with Cara de Lange.
We've had career foundations inbusiness administration for
global organisations, includingGoogle, Cara has taken her
mental health advocacy to thenext level, continuing her
portfolio career, as well as awellbeing and business
consultant, founder, author, andChangemaker. Welcome, Cara.
Cara de Lange (00:34):
Thank you, Lexi.
I'm really excited to be heretoday.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:37):
Brilliant.
So you've taken the skills thatyou've learned along what many
would see as a traditionalcareer path within business
administration, to pivotyourself as a mental health
advocate, and expert in yourportfolio career. If we may,
let's start with what promptedyou to move towards this new
(00:58):
career path?
Cara de Lange (00:59):
Yes, well, I've always been interested, I guess
in what gets people stressed,and what's the psychology behind
it and why we sort of all arebusy, busy, busy and rush, rush,
rush and goal focus. It wasn'treally until I went through a
burnout to myself, quite a fewyears ago now, that it
completely changed my life andmy outlook on life. And I just
(01:22):
got even more curious. And notonly had I gone through this
thing, I started to look around,and I saw other people as well.
So this led me to research. Andthat actually then also led me
to write my book, SofterSuccess, for which is helping
people prevent burnout, findbalance and redefine their
success. And I think, really,what came is that I just so
(01:44):
passionately cared about otherpeople not going through the
same thing that I had gonethrough and burnout, it can
absolutely be prevented. And nowI work with thousands of people
and help them prevent it. Butit's quite a sort of long build
up, and we don't always see itcoming. And that's really where
I like to help people and say,Look, this is what can happen,
these are the things to look outfor. And you know, looking after
(02:07):
our mental health is just asimportant as looking after our
physical health. And yeah,suddenly, with that came other
things. I found myself on thisportfolio career path that sort
of came by accident really. Theburnout happened, I started
writing the book that then ledme to set up my business in
wellbeing consultancy and thenother things have come I started
(02:29):
writing children's books andchildren's stories all about
kindness and mental health. It'sall sort of pivoting in
different areas. I guess thefact that I went through a
horrible, burnout was my maincatalyst for completely changing
things and wanting to helppeople live a more peaceful,
balanced life.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (02:48):
Yeah, I'm really interested in about how -
you know, I've had my own mentalhealth struggles and - to be
able to change that to be ableto pivot on the fact that you've
experienced that yourself, andthen you want to go into
prevention for others, is reallyinteresting. But obviously,
you've got to dig even deeperwithin yourself, right? To be
able to kind of peel back theonion layers to work out how it
(03:10):
happened for you, or why ithappened, then help other
people.
Cara de Lange (03:13):
Absolutely. And that was the hard part, right? I
had to peel off all these onionlayers, I had to understand and
really go into myperfectionistic self, and
understand, you know, how I gotthere, and what I needed to do
to change. And that was noteasy, because you're face up to
some facts that the way that youare may not have been the right
(03:35):
way. And by then I'd had somekids as well. And I wanted to
show them a good example, Iguess I was trying to do
everything too well, you know,that's what we try and strive
and and then this burnouthappened. And you're so right,
it's about going into all ofthose layers, and then facing
your fears. Right? I was reallyfearful of discovering what I
(03:59):
could find there, but also aboutwhat I wanted to do to help
people. Like I was super afraidof standing up and talking in
front of people. And in thebeginning, almost a bit
embarrassed about sharing myexperience.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:14):
Yeah.
Cara de Lange (04:14):
And then in the end, I ended up writing, now
it's in blogs. And it's almostthe more that I shared what had
happened. And I could see how itwas also helping people, the
easier it got, if that makessense?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:28):
Yeah.
Cara de Lange (04:28):
This is facing your fears, your biggest fears,
turning them into a successreally.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:34):
Yeah, I think certainly with regards
portfolio careers, there's anelement of it where you do have
to face your fears. And you alsohave to own your story and that
whole thing about understandingyour story and understanding who
you are and what you want to beand owning that and showing all
of yourself and there is a levelof vulnerability that comes with
(04:54):
having a portfolio careerbecause you're not carrying on
down a perhaps more "normal"route that is often seen, or a,
a kind of a perfect way ofworking?
Cara de Lange (05:06):
Absolutely. I mean, I do, I think it may
become the norm that portfoliocareers I think are probably
heading towards the norm. Andactually, I also think that it
was very easy for me to maybecontinue in a corporate world
and life. But inside, I felt Iwas different. There was just
this feeling coming out ofwanting to help others and I
(05:27):
needed to act on it. But it'staking a leap of faith, right,
and the balance as well, theportfolio career, you know, you
did different things andchallenges that come with it. So
far, I love it.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (05:41):
We talk about perfectionism, and and
that's often tied up with how weview our success. And what is
success? And I wondered, how didyou previously define success?
And how do you define it? Orrather, how have you redefined
Cara de Lange (05:56):
Yeah, so I wrote about that in my book. And it
it now?
was that was really importantfactor for me to explore.
Because success, for me before,was very much about meeting my
goals. I wanted the perfect job,the next promotion, I wanted to
earn the right money, haveeverything, good health, you
know, very goals focused. And Irealised that now that's not
(06:19):
being successful for me. Sobeing successful is being
healthy and well, and livingmore of a values focused life.
So I still have got goals. But Iam enjoying the way to get
there. I guess I'm curious, I'musing my creativity more, making
still time to have fun and selfcare. And the fact that I've got
(06:42):
a portfolio career and a fairlybusy life doesn't mean that I
can't go out and have joyfulmoments and not just work all
the time. No, it's aboutenjoying the journey and living
a values based life. I guessthat's what does success is for
me being healthy and well,because ultimately, right? If
we're not healthy, and feelingwell, physically and emotionally
(07:04):
and mentally, how are we goingto be able to enjoy our success?
Because you can get to thatpoint where you're like, well,
I've managed to do to get to thegoals and things I wanted to
reach, but I'm actually notfeeling really great. You know,
you want to be able to behealthy and well, and live a
values based life while workingtowards your goals.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (07:22):
Yeah,
Cara de Lange (07:22):
Yeah, balance is key.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (07:24):
Balance always a question that comes up.
And everybody sees it as ascale. Right? And you you've
tipped between work and life.
I've talked about with othersabout how you kind of integrate
work and life together, ratherthan balance it. How have you
found balancing your portfoliocareer, your family life, your
mental health? How have you goneabout that?
Cara de Lange (07:49):
Yeah, so obviously, I had to learn from
absolute scratch because Iwasn't looking after myself.
Well, before I went and had aburnout. Or actually I thought I
was, let's put it that way.
That's why I come in and talk tolots of people saying, well, you
may think that you're doing allthe right things and ticking off
the right boxes. But sometimes,there are other things we need
to do in order to preventburnout. And the way that I
(08:09):
balance it is, I make sure thatI'm running on my own schedule.
So even though I'm in aportfolio career, even when I
was post my burnout back, in theoffice, it's very easy to get
caught up against other peopleor stakeholders, clients, I want
you to do this and that anddeadlines. But making sure that
my own schedule is 100% clear.
(08:31):
And there are three ways that Ido that. So first of all, at the
end of the day, and I havealways a start and dedicated
finish time. But at the end ofthe day, my finish is that I've
as I close down my laptop, and Ialways check my schedule and
make sure that for the next day,I've got moments of joy planned
in and a moment to connect tomyself in the middle of the day.
(08:54):
And but at the end of the day, Iclosed down my laptop. And I
asked myself four questions. Sothe first one is what did I do
really well, today? What did notgo that well? Then what have I
learnt? This is this curiosity.
And who inspired me? So thereare four questions, takes about
two minutes. Then just before Igo to bed, and our subconscious
(09:15):
mind starts working on this, sojust before I go to bed, I set a
- it's like a bit of gratitudecombined with a positive
affirmation - so I'm alwayssaying something like, "I'm so
grateful for the day that I'vehad any challenges that I've
faced, I've handled, you know,effectively. And tomorrow I'm
looking forward to a peaceful,joyful and balanced day" or "I
(09:37):
will be peaceful, joyful andbalanced". So this is already
programmed in my brain. So themoment that I wake up, I
reiterate that and again, I havea few minutes of things that I'm
grateful for. So it's the end ofthe day, the start of the day in
the morning, just those twominutes when you wake up, and
then I always take time in themiddle of the day to just
recalibrate and connect tomyself. So get out of the head,
(10:00):
back into the body in whateverway. So that could be
meditation, I could go out for abike ride, I could simply if I'm
busy, just feel my palms andfeel my toes and wriggle my
toes. It could be somethingshort. But there's always a
moment that I take time toreconnect to myself. And I guess
(10:21):
those three things help me staybalanced and in control of my
own schedule.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (10:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's some
really good tips in there. Thankyou. Let's look at kind of
what's going on in the worldright now, as we're recording
this, UK has gone into lockdown.
And this isn't something that'sjust affecting the UK. It's,
it's worldwide as we know, andthere are many changes going on.
And I wonder what changes toyour own career or projects have
you seen or have had to makethis year?
Cara de Lange (10:54):
Well, I think like everybody, the beginning,
earlier on in this year was abit of a shock. I think we were
all trying to process it. And Iused it actually as a time for a
lot of self work and selfreflection. And then as a moment
to to reset, We use at SofterSuccess a lot of the Act
methods (11:12):
so the acceptance commitment method. And one thing
that I've noticed with clientsis that often when we're
resistant to something so allour wish that you know, there
wasn't the virus, I wish that wedidn't have to go into lockdown.
I'm feeling anxious, the morethat we wish, we don't want it,
the worse we can feel. So takinga step back and saying things
(11:33):
like "I noticed I'm anxiousabout going into another
lockdown" just gets you intothat sort of observer role. But
I think it's a wonderfulopportunity actually to pivot,
to reset. If you haven't got aportfolio career now's the
chance to set one up. I mean,there's a lot of change
happening. There are people thatare losing their jobs, which is
not great. But again, this is anopportunity to maybe start
(11:55):
something that you would reallylove. I mean, only yesterday, I
was talking to a lady who helpspeople with videos in YouTube,
and she's going to completelypivot and go into hypnotherapy.
So because she wants to help herson. So I think this is the
moment to accept what'shappening. Take a step back,
look after ourselves and see itas an opportunity for change.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (12:18):
Yeah. Have you found that these changes
have opened up moreopportunities for you? Or do you
see yourself moving in any otherdirections in the future?
Because I know you've had quitea big pivot from Business
Administration into the mentalhealth field.
Cara de Lange (12:31):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've started a whole bunch
of partnerships now. And I'verecently done a little bit of
work for the United Nations,which is really, really great.
And what I've seen is that sortof business is it goes in
bubbles. And I think that's partof being a portfolio career that
you know, you have your businessup, and then it's a bit medium
(12:52):
and then up. And you know, itgoes into kind of a flow like
that. And I'm wanting to helppeople prevent burnout and live
a more peaceful, balanced lifeand look after their well being
and mental health. So yeah,things are coming now.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (13:06):
Lockdown, especially for those of us who
don't work regularly withinteams - and certainly that's
something that I faced when Ifirst started freelancing, for
example, because I wasn't aregular member of a team - could
be facing a lot of lonelinessright now, what few things would
you recommend to those people inthis position?
Cara de Lange (13:23):
Yeah, you know, we have to look at how you are
as a person, right? Some peopleare extroverted and need to be
with other people in order tofunction and others are
introvert, and the introvertshave probably enjoyed more the
lockdown and being able to workfrom home. And loneliness is
really horrible. But what I liketo use, and what we use at
(13:44):
Softer Success is the haltmethod. So it's basically taking
a moment to stop during yourday, and asking yourself, "what
do I really need right now?" Andthen halt stands for hungry,
angry, lonely or tired? So couldsome feelings come up? Because
actually, you've been workingaway and you've not, you know,
(14:05):
had enough to eat or to drink.
Lonely? Do you need to callsomebody? Are you do you need to
process something? If you'reangry? Or are you tired? Do you
simply need to rest more. And Ijust want to share with you a
little story about lonelinessthat may help people as well. So
the Mount Sinai Hospital in NewYork did some research on
Prisoners of War from theVietnam War. And they they've
(14:27):
been Prisoners of War and they'dbeen kept in these tiny prison
cells for years. And these guysactually came out quite
resilient. And that Mount SinaiHospital was curious to find out
why. And they found out therewere three reasons why. And the
first one was is they'd madeconnections. You'll think, how
(14:48):
could they've made connections?
They couldn't talk. Theycouldn't see each other. They
were in cells on their own. Butguess what? They developed a
tapping mechanism. So a littlemechanism of communicating with
each other somehow on the walls.
And this helped them. Soconnections are really, really
important then what they alsodid is they accepted where they
(15:10):
were. So they, you know, theyhad to accept it. But they also
had this realistic optimism. Sothat's not your kind of,
everything's gonna be okay,optimism, but more like, this is
the situation we're in. Soacceptance, this is what we're
doing about it, we've developedthis tapping mechanism to make
connections to stay in touch,and we're helping each other
through, and we're gonna getthrough this. So I guess my
(15:32):
message here on loneliness is,we still are able to communicate
with each other. And we may notbe able to see people to give
them hugs, but if these guys cando it, and this the study on, on
ways of building resilience, sowe can totally do it by just
picking up the phone more often,and staying in touch with our
friends and family and ournearest and dearest and thank
(15:55):
goodness, we do have Zoom, wehave WhatsApp, we have all ways
to stay in touch, and also knowthat this is not going to be
forever.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (16:07):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the
hopeful thing, isn't it? It'snot going to be forever. And
there is smaller ways that wecan connect with one another.
Absolutely. That's brilliant.
Likewise, with loneliness inlockdown, there can also be a
lack of boundaries for anybodyworking from home, that kind of
split. And we kind of talkedabout balance, but that that
split between home and work lifeoften becomes blurred,
especially if you're working inthe same place that you're
(16:29):
living in, smaller spaces, etc.
might not have a dedicatedworking space. What would be
your top tip for avoidingburnout, while striving to meet
everybody's needs in a smallspace? Because we don't all have
big working spaces at home?
Cara de Lange (16:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, the biggest thing I cansay is please set boundaries
around technology. Oursmartphones are great, our
technology is great. But ourminds are being bombarded with
information all the time. Ifit's not work, it's news. It's
media, it's social media. And weneed a break from that. Because
what's happening is it'saffecting our concentration. I
(17:08):
see this time and time withclients. So I guess the biggest
tip is make sure you do a realrecharge and not a fake
recharge. So when I'm talkingabout a big recharges the client
that you know is like "Well, Iwas quite good." He said I
finished work at six and youknow, working from home. And
then I said what did you doafter that? Well, he said, well,
(17:29):
then I I just was scrolling onmy phone and I checked social
media. So how long did you dothat for? Oh up until about
8-8.30. And then I felt quitetired and hungry. And I went
well there you go! A whole lotof things that came up for him
not then more feelings ofisolation, because he wasn't
connecting in the right way. Hewas comparing himself with other
(17:49):
people. So this is sometimeswhat happens on social media.
And that's just his thing, itmay be different for everybody.
But really make sure that you'rerecharging and doing a real
recharge and not a fakerecharge. So put the phone away
unless you're using it formeditation or something, but
then put it away and go and dosomething else that really
(18:11):
recharges you, regularly.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (18:18):
If you've got any tricks that you go back
to, again, again, to ensure thatyou're balancing your
responsibilities and your mentalhealth?
Cara de Lange (18:28):
As I said, I work on the three steps. So I have a
very strong start and end of theday. So we're calming and
soothing my nervous system. Ihave a very positive start to
the day and I always make surethat I take time to recalibrate
and recharge in the middle ofthe day. And I guess another
(18:48):
thing that's come up for me interms of looking after my health
and that covers mental healthand physical health, has come up
even more during this time,where we you'd have to stay more
at home, is that I need to beout in nature. So as much fresh
air as possible. And that'sright there and we can still do
that. So at Softer Success wetalk about mind, body and soul
(19:12):
care. You know, I use positivereframing, positive affirmation
and meditation, body things likeexercise and other ways to
release stress from the body andmaking sure we sleep well and
there all kinds of things. Andthen finally soul care for me
the soul care is just being outin nature, grounding and
connecting with the trees. Sothat's I guess what works for
(19:34):
me.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (19:35):
My partner and I know when we haven't been
away for a while or haven't beenout and had a proper break and
got up to the mountains or gonewalking because you can you can
feel it in your body thathaven't had that reconnection
time. Working with some of thelargest global companies means
that you've seen what theso-called normal, or the
(19:57):
previous normal, maybe, careerpath can look like. What do you
see as the benefits to how youwork as a portfolio
professional?
Cara de Lange (20:06):
Yes, I've worked in big international companies
all over the world, actually. SoI know that that was the way of
working for me before. And itworked, until I pushed myself
into a burnout. And then Idecided I wanted to do things
differently. And I think thegreat thing about a portfolio
career is that you're not justfocused on one thing, there are
(20:29):
other things that you can do aswell, at the same time, and
sometimes they blend together.
Whereas in a company, you'reoften a little bit more bound to
your role, your title, thereare, you know, possibilities to
do extra projects and thingslike that. But you still have to
sort of keep on that title.
Whereas in a portfolio career,if you find that - and people
(20:49):
may be finding this now, right,during the reset in the time of
lockdown - that something theymay have been working on more in
their portfolio career, suddenlythat one is less, and then one
of the other parts is gone up.
You know, it's possible, right?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:03):
And you can dial up and down as needed,
right?
Cara de Lange (21:04):
You can dial up and down. Exactly. And I think
that's one of the greatadvantages of being in a
portfolio career. And Iactually, I like the combination
of working from home and beingout and seeing clients or not
right at the moment, but thecombination, so both things, it
works for me, but everyone'sdifferent.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:27):
Yeah. And who have you looked to as role
models throughout your career?
And how did they influence you?
Because, obviously, we take alot from our community, we take
a lot from our network. But Iwonder whether there was people
in the beginning that reallyinfluenced you or people that
really influenced you right now?
Cara de Lange (21:43):
There was actually an I remember
distinctly a lady, and I was inone of my first or second jobs.
And there was this lady whoalready had a portfolio career.
And this was, you know, 20 oddyears ago. So she worked in the
business where I was working,but she worked there part time,
(22:04):
right, so she did two and a halfdays there. Then she had
something that she did, she wason consulting. And then on the
side, she had a beauty salon.
And I remember thinking, wow!And she managed it all so
beautifully. And there was suchan air of enjoyment and balance
about her. I think this stuck inmy in my mind. Yeah. I think she
(22:26):
was a great inspiration.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (22:31):
It's really important to have those people
who show you that other thingsare possible, right?
Cara de Lange (22:35):
Absolutely. And I think we all have them. If we if
we go back into our careers andthe work that we've done, there
will have been people that willhave inspired us. That's why
again, I like to end the dayalways and still think of
somebody that's inspired me inwhatever way because we can keep
finding them. She was my biginspiration all those years ago
(22:57):
that I thought this is amazingto have a career like this.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:01):
Yeah. This is a question we often end on.
Was there anything that you didwhen you first started your
portfolio career that you wouldavoid if you were to start over?
Cara de Lange (23:13):
A couple of things, because I just threw
myself into it without muchguidance. And when setting up my
website, I went through a guythat had been recommended by a
fellow author via fiverr.com.
The issue I found, though, thatworking with fiverr that
everything had to go through theplatform, and then there were
(23:34):
crushes on the site, orproblems, I would email this
guy. And basically, I'd have towait days for him to get back to
me because he was just really,really slow. And so I think that
was probably a mistake, becauseit meant that for a while my
website was just unstable. Ireally learned from that right?
(23:55):
And I've learned from from lotsof different things, because
I've never set up a businessbefore. And now I've got a
couple but right from thebeginning, I had to learn how am
I reconciling expenses? Where amI going to find an accountant?
How do I set myself up? Whatkind of content? How am I
writing out the content to go onmy site... social media... you
(24:16):
know, everything that sort ofcame with that. And I'm, you
know, I write content now myselfbecause I started writing books,
but at the time, it was like,whew. Now, now we need to find
the right editor. So it's just awhole bunch of things that we
need to think of. But I thinkthat was probably the biggest
mistake that I made in terms ofnot protecting my website. So I
(24:39):
would probably recommend ifyou're starting on a portfolio
career, make sure that you getthe ownership to your website
and do it in a way that you canhave access to the people that
are managing it.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:53):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so
many things that within aportfolio career isn't just
about how you would do or howyou can do it, you might not
have the skills and there'snothing wrong with that, you
often need a tribe to makesomething happen. And you do
need the support and yournetwork and your community are
really important. But of course,that takes trial and tribulation
(25:13):
to find the right people to workin a way that works for you.
Cara de Lange (25:18):
I've learned from that, I think that's the great
thing is I now know how to do alot of things myself. For me, it
was just great in terms oflearning. So I fell, but I also
learned and you know, I guessthat's all part of it. We need a
team of people that can help us,but you may not necessarily want
to straightaway hire thosepeople. Those can all be through
(25:40):
different platforms. But justmake sure that you're and the
website, make sure that youprotect that.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (25:47):
Yeah, absolutely. If somebody was
looking to start up theirportfolio tomorrow, or they're
sat here, facing redundancy orfacing another lockdown, where
they're put on furlough, whatwould your advice be to them
right now? Where can they start?
Unknown (26:06):
I would actually start with, maybe not the
practicalities, but digging downdeep and writing out what they
see as their portfolio careerbecause the brain needs to
understand what it's going to befor you. And often that needs to
be, you know, written out. Itdoesn't have to be an official
(26:27):
proper business plan, but justsomething that's written out so
that you're, you'reunderstanding the way that you
want to go, and then just start.
So there's a wonderful ladycalled Gosia Gorna, who, who
wrote a book called TheExpansion Games about turning
your biggest fears into yourbiggest successes. So the thing
that you're most fearful about,that's the thing that you just
need to start doing? And it maynot be perfect, but just start
(26:51):
and see how it goes.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (26:55):
Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly how
we start off the Catapult courseis, what are your skills? And
where do you want to go with it?
And sometimes you do need tohave that reflection, because we
so often are just in our lanes,and you need a little time to
expand out of that.
Cara de Lange (27:11):
Absolutely. I knew that in order to do the
work that I do. And to helppeople I would also have to be
talking to people and standingup in front of them. And that
was a huge fear for me. So I wasso worried about doing that. And
but after the first time I didit, I actually thought this
wasn't as bad as I thought, youknow. And I really, now I love
(27:34):
it. I'm missing it. So I'mactually I do use virtual
sessions, which I love. But Ijust also really love being in
front of people talking.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (27:42):
Yeah, there's definitely something
about portfolio careers thatallows you to find these new
skills or find these new lovesthat you didn't even realise you
liked doing until you try themout and have that time to
experiment.
Cara de Lange (27:56):
Yeah. And what about you? Lexi's? I'm just
curious, what was your big thingthat you learned?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:03):
The biggest thing that I learnt with
hindsight, I wish I'd had TPCaround when I first started
freelancing because I had anamazing network that I could
lean upon. And were verysupportive, which definitely
helped me and they were mycommunity to begin with, but I
have certainly been very strongbase to my community. However,
that was a lot of reaching outthat I had to do and a lot of
(28:25):
standing up and saying, I don'tknow how to do this. Can
somebody help? Which is, likeyou said, it's a big scary thing
to do. But yeah, some handholding would have been lovely.
And I'm learning stuff as well.
Now, you know, even working withTPC, I'm learning more and more.
This has been a reallyinteresting chat. And thank you
so much for joining us
Cara de Lange (28:44):
Thank you
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:45):
I'm going to wrap it up there, but I wish
you all the best with all yourfuture endeavours.
Cara de Lange (28:50):
Thank you so much, Lexi. I really enjoyed
chatting to you today and hopeto see you soon at The Portfolio
Collective.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:56):
Brilliant.
Thanks very much, Cara.
Cara de Lange (28:58):
Thank you.
Welcome to the sixth episode of
PortfolioCast. Today we'respeaking with Cara de Lange.
We've had career foundations inbusiness administration for
global organisations, includingGoogle, Cara has taken her
mental health advocacy to thenext level, continuing her
portfolio career, as well as awellbeing and business
consultant, founder, author, andChangemaker. Welcome, Cara.
Cara de Lange (00:34):
Thank you, Lexi.
I'm really excited to be heretoday.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (00:37):
Brilliant.
So you've taken the skills thatyou've learned along what many
would see as a traditionalcareer path within business
administration, to pivotyourself as a mental health
advocate, and expert in yourportfolio career. If we may,
let's start with what promptedyou to move towards this new
(00:58):
career path?
Cara de Lange (00:59):
Yes, well, I've always been interested, I guess
in what gets people stressed,and what's the psychology behind
it and why we sort of all arebusy, busy, busy and rush, rush,
rush and goal focus. It wasn'treally until I went through a
burnout to myself, quite a fewyears ago now, that it
completely changed my life andmy outlook on life. And I just
(01:22):
got even more curious. And notonly had I gone through this
thing, I started to look around,and I saw other people as well.
So this led me to research. Andthat actually then also led me
to write my book, SofterSuccess, for which is helping
people prevent burnout, findbalance and redefine their
success. And I think, really,what came is that I just so
(01:44):
passionately cared about otherpeople not going through the
same thing that I had gonethrough and burnout, it can
absolutely be prevented. And nowI work with thousands of people
and help them prevent it. Butit's quite a sort of long build
up, and we don't always see itcoming. And that's really where
I like to help people and say,Look, this is what can happen,
these are the things to look outfor. And you know, looking after
(02:07):
our mental health is just asimportant as looking after our
physical health. And yeah,suddenly, with that came other
things. I found myself on thisportfolio career path that sort
of came by accident really. Theburnout happened, I started
writing the book that then ledme to set up my business in
wellbeing consultancy and thenother things have come I started
(02:29):
writing children's books andchildren's stories all about
kindness and mental health. It'sall sort of pivoting in
different areas. I guess thefact that I went through a
horrible, burnout was my maincatalyst for completely changing
things and wanting to helppeople live a more peaceful,
balanced life.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (02:48):
Yeah, I'm really interested in about how -
you know, I've had my own mentalhealth struggles and - to be
able to change that to be ableto pivot on the fact that you've
experienced that yourself, andthen you want to go into
prevention for others, is reallyinteresting. But obviously,
you've got to dig even deeperwithin yourself, right? To be
able to kind of peel back theonion layers to work out how it
(03:10):
happened for you, or why ithappened, then help other
people.
Cara de Lange (03:13):
Absolutely. And that was the hard part, right? I
had to peel off all these onionlayers, I had to understand and
really go into myperfectionistic self, and
understand, you know, how I gotthere, and what I needed to do
to change. And that was noteasy, because you're face up to
some facts that the way that youare may not have been the right
(03:35):
way. And by then I'd had somekids as well. And I wanted to
show them a good example, Iguess I was trying to do
everything too well, you know,that's what we try and strive
and and then this burnouthappened. And you're so right,
it's about going into all ofthose layers, and then facing
your fears. Right? I was reallyfearful of discovering what I
(03:59):
could find there, but also aboutwhat I wanted to do to help
people. Like I was super afraidof standing up and talking in
front of people. And in thebeginning, almost a bit
embarrassed about sharing myexperience.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:14):
Yeah.
Cara de Lange (04:14):
And then in the end, I ended up writing, now
it's in blogs. And it's almostthe more that I shared what had
happened. And I could see how itwas also helping people, the
easier it got, if that makessense?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:28):
Yeah.
Cara de Lange (04:28):
This is facing your fears, your biggest fears,
turning them into a successreally.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (04:34):
Yeah, I think certainly with regards
portfolio careers, there's anelement of it where you do have
to face your fears. And you alsohave to own your story and that
whole thing about understandingyour story and understanding who
you are and what you want to beand owning that and showing all
of yourself and there is a levelof vulnerability that comes with
(04:54):
having a portfolio careerbecause you're not carrying on
down a perhaps more "normal"route that is often seen, or a,
a kind of a perfect way ofworking?
Cara de Lange (05:06):
Absolutely. I mean, I do, I think it may
become the norm that portfoliocareers I think are probably
heading towards the norm. Andactually, I also think that it
was very easy for me to maybecontinue in a corporate world
and life. But inside, I felt Iwas different. There was just
this feeling coming out ofwanting to help others and I
(05:27):
needed to act on it. But it'staking a leap of faith, right,
and the balance as well, theportfolio career, you know, you
did different things andchallenges that come with it. So
far, I love it.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (05:41):
We talk about perfectionism, and and
that's often tied up with how weview our success. And what is
success? And I wondered, how didyou previously define success?
And how do you define it? Orrather, how have you redefined
Cara de Lange (05:56):
Yeah, so I wrote about that in my book. And it
it now?
was that was really importantfactor for me to explore.
Because success, for me before,was very much about meeting my
goals. I wanted the perfect job,the next promotion, I wanted to
earn the right money, haveeverything, good health, you
know, very goals focused. And Irealised that now that's not
(06:19):
being successful for me. Sobeing successful is being
healthy and well, and livingmore of a values focused life.
So I still have got goals. But Iam enjoying the way to get
there. I guess I'm curious, I'musing my creativity more, making
still time to have fun and selfcare. And the fact that I've got
(06:42):
a portfolio career and a fairlybusy life doesn't mean that I
can't go out and have joyfulmoments and not just work all
the time. No, it's aboutenjoying the journey and living
a values based life. I guessthat's what does success is for
me being healthy and well,because ultimately, right? If
we're not healthy, and feelingwell, physically and emotionally
(07:04):
and mentally, how are we goingto be able to enjoy our success?
Because you can get to thatpoint where you're like, well,
I've managed to do to get to thegoals and things I wanted to
reach, but I'm actually notfeeling really great. You know,
you want to be able to behealthy and well, and live a
values based life while workingtowards your goals.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (07:22):
Yeah,
Cara de Lange (07:22):
Yeah, balance is key.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (07:24):
Balance always a question that comes up.
And everybody sees it as ascale. Right? And you you've
tipped between work and life.
I've talked about with othersabout how you kind of integrate
work and life together, ratherthan balance it. How have you
found balancing your portfoliocareer, your family life, your
mental health? How have you goneabout that?
Cara de Lange (07:49):
Yeah, so obviously, I had to learn from
absolute scratch because Iwasn't looking after myself.
Well, before I went and had aburnout. Or actually I thought I
was, let's put it that way.
That's why I come in and talk tolots of people saying, well, you
may think that you're doing allthe right things and ticking off
the right boxes. But sometimes,there are other things we need
to do in order to preventburnout. And the way that I
(08:09):
balance it is, I make sure thatI'm running on my own schedule.
So even though I'm in aportfolio career, even when I
was post my burnout back, in theoffice, it's very easy to get
caught up against other peopleor stakeholders, clients, I want
you to do this and that anddeadlines. But making sure that
my own schedule is 100% clear.
(08:31):
And there are three ways that Ido that. So first of all, at the
end of the day, and I havealways a start and dedicated
finish time. But at the end ofthe day, my finish is that I've
as I close down my laptop, and Ialways check my schedule and
make sure that for the next day,I've got moments of joy planned
in and a moment to connect tomyself in the middle of the day.
(08:54):
And but at the end of the day, Iclosed down my laptop. And I
asked myself four questions. Sothe first one is what did I do
really well, today? What did notgo that well? Then what have I
learnt? This is this curiosity.
And who inspired me? So thereare four questions, takes about
two minutes. Then just before Igo to bed, and our subconscious
(09:15):
mind starts working on this, sojust before I go to bed, I set a
- it's like a bit of gratitudecombined with a positive
affirmation - so I'm alwayssaying something like, "I'm so
grateful for the day that I'vehad any challenges that I've
faced, I've handled, you know,effectively. And tomorrow I'm
looking forward to a peaceful,joyful and balanced day" or "I
(09:37):
will be peaceful, joyful andbalanced". So this is already
programmed in my brain. So themoment that I wake up, I
reiterate that and again, I havea few minutes of things that I'm
grateful for. So it's the end ofthe day, the start of the day in
the morning, just those twominutes when you wake up, and
then I always take time in themiddle of the day to just
recalibrate and connect tomyself. So get out of the head,
(10:00):
back into the body in whateverway. So that could be
meditation, I could go out for abike ride, I could simply if I'm
busy, just feel my palms andfeel my toes and wriggle my
toes. It could be somethingshort. But there's always a
moment that I take time toreconnect to myself. And I guess
(10:21):
those three things help me staybalanced and in control of my
own schedule.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (10:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's some
really good tips in there. Thankyou. Let's look at kind of
what's going on in the worldright now, as we're recording
this, UK has gone into lockdown.
And this isn't something that'sjust affecting the UK. It's,
it's worldwide as we know, andthere are many changes going on.
And I wonder what changes toyour own career or projects have
you seen or have had to makethis year?
Cara de Lange (10:54):
Well, I think like everybody, the beginning,
earlier on in this year was abit of a shock. I think we were
all trying to process it. And Iused it actually as a time for a
lot of self work and selfreflection. And then as a moment
to to reset, We use at SofterSuccess a lot of the Act
methods (11:12):
so the acceptance commitment method. And one thing
that I've noticed with clientsis that often when we're
resistant to something so allour wish that you know, there
wasn't the virus, I wish that wedidn't have to go into lockdown.
I'm feeling anxious, the morethat we wish, we don't want it,
the worse we can feel. So takinga step back and saying things
(11:33):
like "I noticed I'm anxiousabout going into another
lockdown" just gets you intothat sort of observer role. But
I think it's a wonderfulopportunity actually to pivot,
to reset. If you haven't got aportfolio career now's the
chance to set one up. I mean,there's a lot of change
happening. There are people thatare losing their jobs, which is
not great. But again, this is anopportunity to maybe start
(11:55):
something that you would reallylove. I mean, only yesterday, I
was talking to a lady who helpspeople with videos in YouTube,
and she's going to completelypivot and go into hypnotherapy.
So because she wants to help herson. So I think this is the
moment to accept what'shappening. Take a step back,
look after ourselves and see itas an opportunity for change.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (12:18):
Yeah. Have you found that these changes
have opened up moreopportunities for you? Or do you
see yourself moving in any otherdirections in the future?
Because I know you've had quitea big pivot from Business
Administration into the mentalhealth field.
Cara de Lange (12:31):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've started a whole bunch
of partnerships now. And I'verecently done a little bit of
work for the United Nations,which is really, really great.
And what I've seen is that sortof business is it goes in
bubbles. And I think that's partof being a portfolio career that
you know, you have your businessup, and then it's a bit medium
(12:52):
and then up. And you know, itgoes into kind of a flow like
that. And I'm wanting to helppeople prevent burnout and live
a more peaceful, balanced lifeand look after their well being
and mental health. So yeah,things are coming now.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (13:06):
Lockdown, especially for those of us who
don't work regularly withinteams - and certainly that's
something that I faced when Ifirst started freelancing, for
example, because I wasn't aregular member of a team - could
be facing a lot of lonelinessright now, what few things would
you recommend to those people inthis position?
Cara de Lange (13:23):
Yeah, you know, we have to look at how you are
as a person, right? Some peopleare extroverted and need to be
with other people in order tofunction and others are
introvert, and the introvertshave probably enjoyed more the
lockdown and being able to workfrom home. And loneliness is
really horrible. But what I liketo use, and what we use at
(13:44):
Softer Success is the haltmethod. So it's basically taking
a moment to stop during yourday, and asking yourself, "what
do I really need right now?" Andthen halt stands for hungry,
angry, lonely or tired? So couldsome feelings come up? Because
actually, you've been workingaway and you've not, you know,
(14:05):
had enough to eat or to drink.
Lonely? Do you need to callsomebody? Are you do you need to
process something? If you'reangry? Or are you tired? Do you
simply need to rest more. And Ijust want to share with you a
little story about lonelinessthat may help people as well. So
the Mount Sinai Hospital in NewYork did some research on
Prisoners of War from theVietnam War. And they they've
(14:27):
been Prisoners of War and they'dbeen kept in these tiny prison
cells for years. And these guysactually came out quite
resilient. And that Mount SinaiHospital was curious to find out
why. And they found out therewere three reasons why. And the
first one was is they'd madeconnections. You'll think, how
(14:48):
could they've made connections?
They couldn't talk. Theycouldn't see each other. They
were in cells on their own. Butguess what? They developed a
tapping mechanism. So a littlemechanism of communicating with
each other somehow on the walls.
And this helped them. Soconnections are really, really
important then what they alsodid is they accepted where they
(15:10):
were. So they, you know, theyhad to accept it. But they also
had this realistic optimism. Sothat's not your kind of,
everything's gonna be okay,optimism, but more like, this is
the situation we're in. Soacceptance, this is what we're
doing about it, we've developedthis tapping mechanism to make
connections to stay in touch,and we're helping each other
through, and we're gonna getthrough this. So I guess my
(15:32):
message here on loneliness is,we still are able to communicate
with each other. And we may notbe able to see people to give
them hugs, but if these guys cando it, and this the study on, on
ways of building resilience, sowe can totally do it by just
picking up the phone more often,and staying in touch with our
friends and family and ournearest and dearest and thank
(15:55):
goodness, we do have Zoom, wehave WhatsApp, we have all ways
to stay in touch, and also knowthat this is not going to be
forever.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (16:07):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the
hopeful thing, isn't it? It'snot going to be forever. And
there is smaller ways that wecan connect with one another.
Absolutely. That's brilliant.
Likewise, with loneliness inlockdown, there can also be a
lack of boundaries for anybodyworking from home, that kind of
split. And we kind of talkedabout balance, but that that
split between home and work lifeoften becomes blurred,
especially if you're working inthe same place that you're
(16:29):
living in, smaller spaces, etc.
might not have a dedicatedworking space. What would be
your top tip for avoidingburnout, while striving to meet
everybody's needs in a smallspace? Because we don't all have
big working spaces at home?
Cara de Lange (16:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, the biggest thing I cansay is please set boundaries
around technology. Oursmartphones are great, our
technology is great. But ourminds are being bombarded with
information all the time. Ifit's not work, it's news. It's
media, it's social media. And weneed a break from that. Because
what's happening is it'saffecting our concentration. I
(17:08):
see this time and time withclients. So I guess the biggest
tip is make sure you do a realrecharge and not a fake
recharge. So when I'm talkingabout a big recharges the client
that you know is like "Well, Iwas quite good." He said I
finished work at six and youknow, working from home. And
then I said what did you doafter that? Well, he said, well,
(17:29):
then I I just was scrolling onmy phone and I checked social
media. So how long did you dothat for? Oh up until about
8-8.30. And then I felt quitetired and hungry. And I went
well there you go! A whole lotof things that came up for him
not then more feelings ofisolation, because he wasn't
connecting in the right way. Hewas comparing himself with other
(17:49):
people. So this is sometimeswhat happens on social media.
And that's just his thing, itmay be different for everybody.
But really make sure that you'rerecharging and doing a real
recharge and not a fakerecharge. So put the phone away
unless you're using it formeditation or something, but
then put it away and go and dosomething else that really
(18:11):
recharges you, regularly.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (18:18):
If you've got any tricks that you go back
to, again, again, to ensure thatyou're balancing your
responsibilities and your mentalhealth?
Cara de Lange (18:28):
As I said, I work on the three steps. So I have a
very strong start and end of theday. So we're calming and
soothing my nervous system. Ihave a very positive start to
the day and I always make surethat I take time to recalibrate
and recharge in the middle ofthe day. And I guess another
(18:48):
thing that's come up for me interms of looking after my health
and that covers mental healthand physical health, has come up
even more during this time,where we you'd have to stay more
at home, is that I need to beout in nature. So as much fresh
air as possible. And that'sright there and we can still do
that. So at Softer Success wetalk about mind, body and soul
(19:12):
care. You know, I use positivereframing, positive affirmation
and meditation, body things likeexercise and other ways to
release stress from the body andmaking sure we sleep well and
there all kinds of things. Andthen finally soul care for me
the soul care is just being outin nature, grounding and
connecting with the trees. Sothat's I guess what works for
(19:34):
me.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (19:35):
My partner and I know when we haven't been
away for a while or haven't beenout and had a proper break and
got up to the mountains or gonewalking because you can you can
feel it in your body thathaven't had that reconnection
time. Working with some of thelargest global companies means
that you've seen what theso-called normal, or the
(19:57):
previous normal, maybe, careerpath can look like. What do you
see as the benefits to how youwork as a portfolio
professional?
Cara de Lange (20:06):
Yes, I've worked in big international companies
all over the world, actually. SoI know that that was the way of
working for me before. And itworked, until I pushed myself
into a burnout. And then Idecided I wanted to do things
differently. And I think thegreat thing about a portfolio
career is that you're not justfocused on one thing, there are
(20:29):
other things that you can do aswell, at the same time, and
sometimes they blend together.
Whereas in a company, you'reoften a little bit more bound to
your role, your title, thereare, you know, possibilities to
do extra projects and thingslike that. But you still have to
sort of keep on that title.
Whereas in a portfolio career,if you find that - and people
(20:49):
may be finding this now, right,during the reset in the time of
lockdown - that something theymay have been working on more in
their portfolio career, suddenlythat one is less, and then one
of the other parts is gone up.
You know, it's possible, right?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:03):
And you can dial up and down as needed,
right?
Cara de Lange (21:04):
You can dial up and down. Exactly. And I think
that's one of the greatadvantages of being in a
portfolio career. And Iactually, I like the combination
of working from home and beingout and seeing clients or not
right at the moment, but thecombination, so both things, it
works for me, but everyone'sdifferent.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (21:27):
Yeah. And who have you looked to as role
models throughout your career?
And how did they influence you?
Because, obviously, we take alot from our community, we take
a lot from our network. But Iwonder whether there was people
in the beginning that reallyinfluenced you or people that
really influenced you right now?
Cara de Lange (21:43):
There was actually an I remember
distinctly a lady, and I was inone of my first or second jobs.
And there was this lady whoalready had a portfolio career.
And this was, you know, 20 oddyears ago. So she worked in the
business where I was working,but she worked there part time,
(22:04):
right, so she did two and a halfdays there. Then she had
something that she did, she wason consulting. And then on the
side, she had a beauty salon.
And I remember thinking, wow!And she managed it all so
beautifully. And there was suchan air of enjoyment and balance
about her. I think this stuck inmy in my mind. Yeah. I think she
(22:26):
was a great inspiration.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (22:31):
It's really important to have those people
who show you that other thingsare possible, right?
Cara de Lange (22:35):
Absolutely. And I think we all have them. If we if
we go back into our careers andthe work that we've done, there
will have been people that willhave inspired us. That's why
again, I like to end the dayalways and still think of
somebody that's inspired me inwhatever way because we can keep
finding them. She was my biginspiration all those years ago
(22:57):
that I thought this is amazingto have a career like this.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (23:01):
Yeah. This is a question we often end on.
Was there anything that you didwhen you first started your
portfolio career that you wouldavoid if you were to start over?
Cara de Lange (23:13):
A couple of things, because I just threw
myself into it without muchguidance. And when setting up my
website, I went through a guythat had been recommended by a
fellow author via fiverr.com.
The issue I found, though, thatworking with fiverr that
everything had to go through theplatform, and then there were
(23:34):
crushes on the site, orproblems, I would email this
guy. And basically, I'd have towait days for him to get back to
me because he was just really,really slow. And so I think that
was probably a mistake, becauseit meant that for a while my
website was just unstable. Ireally learned from that right?
(23:55):
And I've learned from from lotsof different things, because
I've never set up a businessbefore. And now I've got a
couple but right from thebeginning, I had to learn how am
I reconciling expenses? Where amI going to find an accountant?
How do I set myself up? Whatkind of content? How am I
writing out the content to go onmy site... social media... you
(24:16):
know, everything that sort ofcame with that. And I'm, you
know, I write content now myselfbecause I started writing books,
but at the time, it was like,whew. Now, now we need to find
the right editor. So it's just awhole bunch of things that we
need to think of. But I thinkthat was probably the biggest
mistake that I made in terms ofnot protecting my website. So I
(24:39):
would probably recommend ifyou're starting on a portfolio
career, make sure that you getthe ownership to your website
and do it in a way that you canhave access to the people that
are managing it.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (24:53):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so
many things that within aportfolio career isn't just
about how you would do or howyou can do it, you might not
have the skills and there'snothing wrong with that, you
often need a tribe to makesomething happen. And you do
need the support and yournetwork and your community are
really important. But of course,that takes trial and tribulation
(25:13):
to find the right people to workin a way that works for you.
Cara de Lange (25:18):
I've learned from that, I think that's the great
thing is I now know how to do alot of things myself. For me, it
was just great in terms oflearning. So I fell, but I also
learned and you know, I guessthat's all part of it. We need a
team of people that can help us,but you may not necessarily want
to straightaway hire thosepeople. Those can all be through
(25:40):
different platforms. But justmake sure that you're and the
website, make sure that youprotect that.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (25:47):
Yeah, absolutely. If somebody was
looking to start up theirportfolio tomorrow, or they're
sat here, facing redundancy orfacing another lockdown, where
they're put on furlough, whatwould your advice be to them
right now? Where can they start?
Unknown (26:06):
I would actually start with, maybe not the
practicalities, but digging downdeep and writing out what they
see as their portfolio careerbecause the brain needs to
understand what it's going to befor you. And often that needs to
be, you know, written out. Itdoesn't have to be an official
(26:27):
proper business plan, but justsomething that's written out so
that you're, you'reunderstanding the way that you
want to go, and then just start.
So there's a wonderful ladycalled Gosia Gorna, who, who
wrote a book called TheExpansion Games about turning
your biggest fears into yourbiggest successes. So the thing
that you're most fearful about,that's the thing that you just
need to start doing? And it maynot be perfect, but just start
(26:51):
and see how it goes.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (26:55):
Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly how
we start off the Catapult courseis, what are your skills? And
where do you want to go with it?
And sometimes you do need tohave that reflection, because we
so often are just in our lanes,and you need a little time to
expand out of that.
Cara de Lange (27:11):
Absolutely. I knew that in order to do the
work that I do. And to helppeople I would also have to be
talking to people and standingup in front of them. And that
was a huge fear for me. So I wasso worried about doing that. And
but after the first time I didit, I actually thought this
wasn't as bad as I thought, youknow. And I really, now I love
(27:34):
it. I'm missing it. So I'mactually I do use virtual
sessions, which I love. But Ijust also really love being in
front of people talking.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (27:42):
Yeah, there's definitely something
about portfolio careers thatallows you to find these new
skills or find these new lovesthat you didn't even realise you
liked doing until you try themout and have that time to
experiment.
Cara de Lange (27:56):
Yeah. And what about you? Lexi's? I'm just
curious, what was your big thingthat you learned?
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:03):
The biggest thing that I learnt with
hindsight, I wish I'd had TPCaround when I first started
freelancing because I had anamazing network that I could
lean upon. And were verysupportive, which definitely
helped me and they were mycommunity to begin with, but I
have certainly been very strongbase to my community. However,
that was a lot of reaching outthat I had to do and a lot of
(28:25):
standing up and saying, I don'tknow how to do this. Can
somebody help? Which is, likeyou said, it's a big scary thing
to do. But yeah, some handholding would have been lovely.
And I'm learning stuff as well.
Now, you know, even working withTPC, I'm learning more and more.
This has been a reallyinteresting chat. And thank you
so much for joining us
Cara de Lange (28:44):
Thank you
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:45):
I'm going to wrap it up there, but I wish
you all the best with all yourfuture endeavours.
Cara de Lange (28:50):
Thank you so much, Lexi. I really enjoyed
chatting to you today and hopeto see you soon at The Portfolio
Collective.
Lexi Radcliffe-Hart (28:56):
Brilliant.
Thanks very much, Cara.
Cara de Lange (28:58):
Thank you.
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