If you're a postpartum provider, you know the juggle: supporting new moms while often navigating your own intense motherhood journey, battling burnout, and feeling stretched thin. This episode gets real with midwife Corina Fitch & Maranda who share their deeply personal struggles with postpartum mental health – from depression to bipolar disorder – and how those experiences completely shifted their approach to holistic postpartum care. If you're a doula, midwife, or any birth worker focused on maternal wellness and improving our current system, you'll want to hear this. They explore how understanding and embracing matrescence is crucial not just for your clients to thrive, but for you as well.
Check out this episode on the blog HERE.
Key time stamps:
- 0:43 Postpartum recovery is a multi-year transformation, not just weeks
- 2:13 Corina's own postpartum depression fueled her passion for maternal wellness
- 4:00 Even birth professionals face their own postpartum struggles
- 10:48 Personal healing ignited innovative holistic maternal support programs
- 17:05 Postpartum University grew from provider demand for root-cause healing for moms
- 19:58 Many moms turn to alternative support after traditional healthcare fails them
- 22:43 Postpartum University addresses the gap in provider education
- 27:19 New laws push for extended, comprehensive postpartum care plans
- 31:33 Pregnancy causes immediate brain changes & motherhood's lifelong impact.
Connect with Corina:
Corina Fitch is a Certified Professional Midwife and Neonatal Intensive Care nurse with over 27 years of experience in the field of maternal health. She is also a Certified Feminine Power Transformational Facilitator and has been leading women’s circles and ceremonies for over 2 decades. Corina has three daughters, each one bringing deeper meaning to her work. In 2017, after experiencing postpartum depression following the birth of her third daughter, Corina founded MotherFly, an organization dedicated to supporting maternal wellness and thriving.
NEXT STEPS:
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🔔Sign up for the Postpartum Nutrition Certification Waitlist
👍Rate, REVIEW & share the podcast
📱Connect on Instagram!
📚Get a Copy of the BOOK: Reclaiming Postpartum Wellness
🧠Perinatal Mental Health Certificate Training & Additional Courses for Providers & Postpartum Professionals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer, and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelongwell-being.
So today we're going to dosomething a lot different than
what we have normally done, andso if you're listening into the
Postpartum University podcast,you know me.
(00:43):
I'm Miranda Bauer, and I havebeen doing this work for many,
many years, teaching and servingpostpartum providers and
mothers for quite some time over15 years and really supporting
them and understanding thesephysiological and psychological
changes that are occurring inthe postpartum period, and by
(01:03):
postpartum, of course, we're nottalking about the first few
weeks or even months, but theseveral years that it takes to
really be in this space in thisseason, and I'm here today
chatting with Karina Finch,who's been on the Postpartum
University podcast before, andshe had shared her story and her
(01:27):
journey into having threedaughters and her mental health
battle and being a midwifethrough all of that.
It's actually one of our mostpopular episodes, and so I
highly recommend listening tothat and I'll link it in the
postpartum university podcast.
But we're also going to havethis recording on Karina's
(01:49):
podcast and so I'm going to lether come in now and introduce
herself and her podcast and allthe things and we're just going
to have a beautiful chat aboutour origin stories and where
we've been through andmatrescence and all of these
things and how interconnectedthey are.
So I'm going to stop talking.
(02:10):
I'm going to let you come innow.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you, miranda.
I'm really excited that we'redoing this this way.
Where we were each going to beguests on each other's podcast,
we decided to do a combinedversion.
So I'm Karina Fitch and I am amidwife of 25 years.
I have three daughters and I,after the birth of my third
daughter, I experienced severepostpartum depression and
(02:35):
anxiety, which later morphedinto bipolar disorder.
I actually worked with Mirandaand her program, which was
really helpful for me in workingon the nutritional aspect of my
journey.
But that led me to become verypassionate about maternal
wellness and empowerment,because I didn't want any mother
(02:56):
to experience what I wentthrough, and so I started a new
organization called Motherflywhich is in service to maternal
wellness and empowerment, and Inow I have programs for pregnant
mamas and seasoned mothers tohelp support them to shift out
of survival mode and burnout andoverwhelm and into thriving.
(03:19):
And also, what I'm reallyinterested in and supporting is
and what I see and witness overand over again in my work is how
, when mothers thrive, ummatrescence actually becomes an
enrichment program and it'sactually a portal to our most
powerful, potent selves, to ourfullest, fully expressed selves,
(03:41):
and it's actually designed toup-level us, but without the
right kinds of support, it canfeel and be traumatic, and so
I'm really excited to be in thisconversation about matrescence
with Miranda, who is somebodythat I deeply admire and am
inspired by.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Thank you.
That is so beautiful.
Our stories are so similarbecause I just released on the
podcast my story throughpostpartum bipolar and you were
just sharing with me before westarted recording.
Like how different our storiesare, but the same, the same
thing, right?
And I'm curious because you'vebeen a midwife for many, many
years before children, right?
(04:20):
How did having children changeyour midwifery practice?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So I had been practicing as a midwife for
seven years before I had myfirst daughter and that birth
process, as most first births go, was long and challenging and
extremely humbling for me.
I remember my clients at thattime were like, oh, are you?
You're not going to have amidwife, right, you're just
(04:47):
going to do it on your own?
And I was like, are you kiddingme?
Of course I'm going to have amidwife, like just because I
know things.
And in fact, because I knowthings, it can.
I think it actually made itharder.
So I feel like what I got out ofthat experience was was really
understanding what I meant whenI said for so many years, it's
the woman that does the hardwork, because a lot of times
(05:10):
people like to say, oh, um, youknow, you delivered my baby or
whatever, and it's like, no,actually you delivered your baby
, I was just there supportingyou.
Um, but what it also taught menot so much, uh, just the birth,
but the, the, the motheringpart, the postpartum journey was
how essential self-care was insupporting myself as a mother.
(05:35):
I was a single mom, I was amidwife and with midwifery,
you're on call 24-7, 365.
And same with being a mom,you're on call all the time, so
it was I.
It was very easy to burn outand I started to really weave
into my prenatal teachings thisidea that self-care is the
foundation for motherhood and ifwe don't take care of ourselves
(05:58):
, then we really are not goingto be able to offer much to our
children to be able to offermuch to our children.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I feel that really deeply because I was in the very
beginning stages after Istarted my work, after having
kids, it was actually like thething that fueled me I was
always really interested in, inscience and birth and all things
woman, womanly, like, womanrelated, and I became a doula
after having my, my son, andagain it's like you're on call
all the time, 24, seven, 365.
(06:31):
And it was a lot of of work.
To you know, I was strugglingwith depression and I became a
single mom and I was trying tonavigate like this whole world
of like the things that I knew,because I was deeply embedded in
all of the knowledge and youknow, the studies and everything
(06:51):
, and then trying to work onmyself and also trying to like
grow my business and supportothers.
And that was really hard.
And you just said somethingthat really caught me.
You said being a midwife likeof course you'd have a midwife
because things would be harder,like it's often harder.
(07:12):
I I have to point that outbecause I feel that so deeply I
feel like being I was achildbirth educator for many
years a coach, you know I'vebeen in this field for 15 years
only like half the time you butI just like I felt like I knew
all the things and then I gotcaught up in my head so much and
(07:34):
like dismissed so much of myown emotional, physical needs
because I thought, but you knowall the science, like I had so
much going on in my head, right,I remember giving birth to my
second and I specificallyremember going through
contractions and telling myselfyou need to suck it up.
(07:57):
Yeah, this is hard, but you'rein the very early stages, like
you're you know, just now havingbloody show.
Like you're maybe four or fivecentimeters, suck it up.
I gave birth to her fiveminutes later.
Wow, which number baby was that?
That was number two.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but I thought I kneweverything right and I was
(08:20):
already in my head and I hadbeen doing this work for years
at this point in time, and so itwas so funny how and not so
funny like I didn't treat myselfvery well, like that was not an
okay thing for me to, to betelling myself but it was
because I was so in my head,rather than taking a step back
and like really feeling where amI in this journey?
(08:41):
And yeah, I, just I relate tothat.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's so interesting .
It's like for me with my first,my midwife mind really got in
my way.
I was overthinking my labor.
I was convinced that I wascause.
I stalled at six centimetersfor about seven hours and my
cervix got swollen.
And I remember I was convincedthat my midwives were on the
couch plotting my transport tothe hospital.
(09:06):
And then, with my seconddaughter, my midwifery skills
came in handy.
I was able to check my owncervix and it felt amazing to
feel with my midwife fingers,like the dilation, but also know
what it felt like on the insideof to have a cervix that open
and a head that low, and it wasjust a completely different
(09:29):
experience.
They're they're all so unique.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I love that.
I did that too with my fourth,to just be able to feel like
what was happening and Iremember on my fourth I had a
very fast labor, it was only 55minutes but to be able to like
feel the whole process.
And at one point I ended upsticking around in the bathroom
because when I put my my handsin I could feel the whole bag of
(09:53):
waters just hanging out of meand like this big bulbous, you
know, and I was like, oh, that'sgoing to burst here real soon,
you know, like I'm just going tohold tight and be in this space
that's going to be able tocapture it, rather than on my
floor and carpet.
It was, it was.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It was something that came in handy, but it was also
something that took a long timefor that to happen you know
Right, it's like cultivating thewisdom to know when that comes
in handy and when to be just inyour intuitive, laboring body
and mind as a woman.
(10:32):
You know that's what I like.
Nahama's birth, my first.
It took me so far outside ofwhat I knew as a midwife and so
deep inside of myself as a womanthat I was transformed woman
that I was transformed.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I love that.
The last time that I spoke withyou, you had Motherfly going
and you were working so hard onlike bringing this, this
business, to life, and thingshave shifted dramatically.
I haven't talked to you in sometime but you have recently kind
of like brought togethermidwifery and dance, which is a
huge part of your work andcoaching, and and like this
transformative work into what itis that you're doing now and
(11:13):
I'd love to hear more about likehow that all transpired and how
was that like birthed into theworld by your experiences?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, it's been.
It's been a journey and it'sbeen.
You know, I always I love thelabyrinth as a metaphor for
birth and postpartum and justany journey of transformation,
and it's certainly been alabyrinthine pathway because of
the mental health stuff thatI've been traversing.
And what I appreciated a lotabout your episode on the
(11:45):
bipolar was what, how you weresaying, you know, on the, on the
days that you were manic, youwere like getting shit done and
like laying stuff out and andthat's what I've had to learn to
do is like be very productivein my, in my higher times, which
I naturally am it's like I,it's easy for me, I wake up, I
(12:08):
have energy, I do all myself-care, Um, and I'm currently
in a business program right nowto uh for supporting holistic
coaches and healers and it'svery robust, and so I have lots
of support and I'm just gettingall the stuff done.
And right now what I'm doingalso is putting hiring people to
(12:29):
be my support when I hit what Icall them dips, when I hit a
depressive dip, because whenthat happens, everything comes
to a screeching halt and I'mlike I'm not on social media I
despise social media in thosemoments and I'm just not doing
the things that I need to do tomove the business forward.
So I'm getting an apprenticefor my membership group.
(12:51):
I have a, an ongoing membershipgroup that started four years
ago.
We just celebrated our fourthyear together um this past
weekend and it's called thematrescent circle and that's for
moms with um, with children ofany age.
We have some people with babiesand other people with adult
children and it's just a reallybeautiful community where we
(13:14):
explore different aspects ofmatrescence and there's that
giving and receiving of supportthat creates really a rich
container for transformationwhen you have a community like
that.
And then I have my MotherThrive program, which used to be
called Mother Birth and it wasoriginally designed for pregnant
(13:37):
women to basically midwife theprocess of mother birth Like we,
we prepare for childbirth butwe don't really prepare for
mother birth and mother birth isactually a lot more complex and
transformational andlife-changing than you know.
Childbirth, which is, you know,a few hours or maybe a few days
(13:59):
of your life if you have a longbirth.
So, but I opened it up tomothers with children of any age
because I realized that mostmoms have not had a guide like a
matrescence midwife, a guide tohelp them navigate all of the
complex changes.
And and I use tools fromFeminine Power.
(14:20):
I'm a certified Feminine Powerfacilitator and I use the dance
um, I just had a group, aprenatal group, yesterday where
we did some belly dance and um,and then I just use, uh, various
tools that I've learned alongmy own personal journey of being
a spiritual seeker and and, ofcourse, my journey through
(14:41):
mental health.
Um, so those are the main twoofferings that I have right now
and along with my podcast, whichI didn't say the name in the
beginning but it's called MotherTongue and it is a space where
I interview moms who are workingto empower mothers in some way,
(15:02):
shape or form, and it's reallyabout removing the patriarchy
from motherhood, from theinstitution of motherhood,
through each conversation.
A hot topic, yeah, yeah, Iactually kind of linked that
together.
After I went a few, severalyears back, I went to a ketamine
(15:23):
clinic to help with as anothertool for the mental health and
in my sessions the therapistthat was with me mentioned the
book Burnout.
Are you familiar with that book?
I've heard of it.
Yeah, it helped, really helpedme to clarify that connection in
(15:46):
my work, just with in in my ownpersonal journey as, as a woman
, um, how, like dismantling thepatriarchy is part of my healing
.
And then that's actually whatI'm doing with mothers.
Um, and I know you.
When I, when I worked with you,you were your focus was working
one-on-one with moms as a coach, and now that's shifted to the
(16:09):
postpartum university, where youare teaching doctors and
midwives and nurses aboutnutrition and hormones, right Is
that?
Yeah, yeah, you want to sharemore about that.
Yeah, yeah, you want to sharemore about that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I loved working with moms, like that was, that was my
thing for so many years, somany years.
And I noticed that so many likethis, this was the
transformation for me as I I wasgoing through my own issues and
I felt like I had to find.
You know, I was going to allthese providers getting the
(16:45):
support that I needed, likenobody knew, or I would just
walk away with some newdiagnosis, like really that's
what happened.
I've had so many diagnoses.
(17:06):
It's unbelievable, and I neverfelt like I was getting any help
.
So I mean, that's that's reallywhere my education kind of
dived into was how am Isupporting myself?
How am I healing my body?
What is even possible here?
And there's a lot ofgenerational work that happened
in there.
There was a lot of physicalwork, nutritional, psychological
(17:27):
, and kind of just putting itall together with my, my
background in science andbiology and really just kind of
like honed in and like foundspecific certifications that
would work with me and peoplethat would, that would have kind
of walked this path before, andalso working alongside the
(17:48):
mothers that I was serving andseeing their questions, seeing
their journeys and put I put somany pieces together.
It was just like mind blowing,and I I don't share this enough,
but I often feel like my workis not my work, this is God's
work.
This is a higher powers work.
It is just coming through me,and I know that sounds weird.
(18:11):
I'm not like trying to say thatI'm like a God's gift or
anything of the nature.
I'm just saying that I have hadlike some really horrific
experiences and they have servedsuch a beautiful purpose and I
have witnessed how much I havebeen able to assimilate certain
information and not even as aprovider I'm not a doctor, I'm
(18:33):
not a midwife and to be able totake this and cohesively give it
over to someone else who isable to therefore use it for
themselves and help their ownbodies heal.
And then, when I was doing thatfor years and a lot of women
were walking away feelingimmensely different in their
(18:54):
bodies, so much better, right,they were getting off
medications for thyroid,antidepressants, anti-anxiety
meds, and of course, they were,you know, working with their
providers to do all of this andit was a beautiful thing.
But their, their doctors, werecoming to me and saying what
were you doing?
Like how, how are you?
How are you doing this?
Like I've been working withthis client for four years or
(19:15):
five years and that's the truth.
Like so many of the women that Iwas coming to and I actually
I've never shared this before,I'll share this here, but a lot
of the women that were coming tome, I kind of built a
reputation for the good thingsthat I was doing for women and I
would have them come to me andsay, miranda, nobody's been able
(19:36):
to help me.
I've seen four or five, sixproviders.
I've been on all thesupplements I've done.
You know all the diets, all thefads.
I've done, all I've seen.
You know the chiropractor andthe acupuncturist and I've done
everything.
You have no idea and I don'tthink that I can continue doing
this.
If you don't help me, I don'tknow where else I can go.
(20:01):
And I felt like this immenseresponsibility of holding space
for these women and like if theydon't get the healing that they
need from me, then I havefailed them and I don't know
what's going to happen, becausethey're they're telling me that
their mental health is not okayand I can work alongside other
providers, but they're tellingme that their counselor, their
third counselor, whomever youknow, is not working and I felt
(20:25):
so much fear and so muchresponsibility and I didn't know
how to handle that.
I'm not a medical provider.
Like this is not.
Like I'm just going to code,I'm just going to give you the
tools that I have and I'm goingto help walk you through it and
hold your hand.
And yeah, it got.
It got really hard for that.
And I kept thinking to myself,like this is this is not okay.
(20:48):
Like they're going to theirprovider first and they're
feeling like that's failedimmensely, so much so that many
of the women that I've workedwith were telling me that if I,
you know, don't help, then thiswas the end of the road for them
.
Or they would go through myentire program and then tell me
and I actually have a couple ofrecordings on the podcast of
(21:11):
women saying if this didn't workfor me, you know, by the end of
the session, like thankfully itworked, but I didn't tell you
that I was going to end my life,and it didn't matter how much
screening I did for this right,like you could do all of the
screenings and everything, andthere's some things that you'll
just never pick up.
Yeah, anyway, it was.
(21:31):
It was really hard, and so Ithink that was the big shift for
me is when I had I hadproviders in my inbox all the
time Will you do a training, canyou?
Can you call me, you know?
And then I had this pressure onthis other side.
You know these moms who werestruggling immensely and not
getting the support from theproviders and then thinking I
was their last ditch effort andI was like no, no, no, no, no,
(21:53):
this has got to change.
And if they were wanting thisinformation then I guess I'll be
the person to share it.
And that's basically whathappened.
I launched a, a betacertification program for my
nutrition, which is what I wasreally famous for at the time,
and it sold out like three timesin a row and it was just like
(22:14):
wow, it was amazing.
And I was like, okay, this isit, and I guess this is where
we'll go, and it just it'sreally transformed over the last
several years to what it istoday and I'm grateful for it.
It's taken a lot of pressureoff of me for one and two.
(22:36):
I'm really getting to help momsat the root, where they need to
be supported and held, you know, where the system is already
right.
And then I'm also working ondismantling the patriarchy and
other ways to help redefine andreshift the system that we work
in.
That will never fully be themodel of care that we women need
(23:01):
to heal, but what we've beengiven at the time and so yeah,
that's that's the story, wow,amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Um, and how have the like the physicians were they?
Did they have any resistance toyou because you weren't a
doctor or some other type of?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
practice, healthcare practice oh, I've, I've had
everything I've had you know themost.
Like, how come nobody's evertaught me this?
Or I have got multitude ofdegrees and certifications and
I've never heard of this.
And so, like and and like I,I'm upset with my education.
I've spent so much money andyou've taught me more than ever,
right, and I've gotten that.
(23:41):
And then I've also gotten fromthe general public, like, who do
you think you are?
You're?
You're not a doctor, you haveno reason to be here.
I've, I had one if I I won'tshare the name publicly, but
there's one provider who'sfairly big.
She has her own podcast, she'sgot 30 plus books, like she's
(24:04):
been in women's health for formany, many, many eons.
And somebody that I looked upto and I had actually joined her
program for an herbal course.
Herbs, or something that I'vejust have connected me to mother
nature and the earth.
And being in Alaska on 40 acres, like, I have a lot I forage
all the time and my own backyard.
(24:24):
I'm very blessed with that.
But I I've just used herbs.
All of you know my adult lifeand I use it in my, my practice
as well.
So I thought, ah, this would besuch a beautiful thing for me to
go through when I applied and Iwas accepted and then it was at
the time that my bookReclaiming Postpartum Wellness
was coming out and I asked herto review it and we sent it to
(24:49):
her.
She said she had said yes, goton our mailing list.
I was so thrilled, right, likeshe was such this famous person,
and then all of a sudden, likeI can't access the course
anymore, and it was.
It was a big ordeal.
She eventually responded backto me saying, yeah, we kicked
you out.
You're not qualified to teachwhat you teach and we don't.
(25:12):
You don't belong here.
And it was just like the mostyou know awful experience.
I just bawled my eyes out.
For a few days.
I actually had to hire a lawyerto get my money back from the
course.
It was, it was a disaster,right, somebody that I looked up
to and I really wanted to learnfrom.
And here she is telling me thatI'm not good enough, you know,
(25:35):
and that happens, it happens,and I think, no matter what it
is that we do, there's alwaysgoing to be those people in the
world Like if you put yourselfout there on social media,
you're going to get somethingright, like this is just the
something that I get, and I'mokay with that because I know
the value that I bring to thetable.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's where you really have to
sink into that value that youbring.
And you know, I mean you'vechanged, you're changing lives,
you've changed lives and I thinkit's beautiful to watch you
change your niche kind of fromthe moms to the providers.
Because that's something that Ikind of envision for the future
(26:14):
is to have a program that's forbirth workers whether they're
childbirth educators, midwives,doctors, lactation consultants
or anyone that's just passionateabout matrescence to have a
program that like a training tobecome a matrescence midwife,
where you're actually not justsupporting childbirth but you're
(26:34):
supporting the mother birth.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I love that and I think our world is shifting
significantly, to be in a spacethat I think allows that so much
more, because we're looking atso much change, especially in
the postpartum space, right, Ithink, and maybe just because
I'm inundated with it, but I dosee a lot of legislative work in
(27:00):
regard to postpartum care, andhere in the state of Alaska, a
new law has passed that allowsmidwives to care for women and
insurance cover it for the firstyear after having a baby, so no
longer the first six weeks,which is amazing, right, but
that's the perfect blend intothe matriarch sense.
(27:22):
I think midwives and providersthey don't have necessarily that
training to go that long, andso they're looking for, okay,
what do I do?
What's my protocols, what's my?
How do I get into this space?
How do I offer this?
There was a New Jersey alsopassed a law saying that all
postpartum moms have to have acare plan.
(27:42):
So they're all like scrambling,like what the heck is a care
plan and what do I do?
Right, that's great.
So I think that there's it's,it's like trickling in, but that
work that you do is so, so,incredibly beautiful, and I
think we're in a space now thatthat is going to become a thing
(28:06):
where women and providers aregoing to be seeking that out.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, unfortunately, it'staken us getting to such a low
point to to make folks realizethat we're actually in crisis.
With, you know, the maternalmental health being where it's
at and um, suicide being one ofthe leading causes of death for
mothers.
It's like, okay, if that's nota wake up call, then then I
(28:32):
don't know what it is.
And so, starting I and I andthat's why I'm also so
passionate about the wordmatrescence and the idea of
matrescence, which is somethingthat I learned maybe six years
ago, that word, and I've been inthe midwife for 25 years so,
like most people don't know whatthat word is.
And I feel, like you know, if we, if we don't, if we don't have
(28:56):
a name for something, then howcan we possibly support it
properly?
You know, with adolescents,everyone knows that word and we
do our best to support it.
We understand that.
You know, children at thatstage are going to be going
through different changes.
But matrescence is somethingthat is relatively it's an old
word, but it's a new concept formost people, and so one of my
(29:19):
missions is to make it ahousehold word, like adolescence
, that everybody knows about andunderstands that, like you know
, you wouldn't.
You wouldn't plan a weddingwithout a wedding planner,
without support, right.
So why would you take on, youknow, this transformation into
motherhood without a mentor orguide or a community?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I love that I was actually.
I have a podcast episode that Ijust recorded not too long ago
with Jesse Harold.
She wrote a book on matrescenceand I opened up that podcast
episode and it's not it'll beout in June but I was like tell
me about matri science.
And she was like, well,actually it's pronounced this
(30:07):
way.
And I was like, oh my God, Iactually had to coach myself
throughout the whole episode andI left everything in there, so
everybody will be able to hearme work through this.
But I think that I mean, I'vebeen in this field for 15 years
and I still am learning at likeI just learned how to pronounce
it correctly, like, yes, I'veread it, yes, I, I know of it,
(30:28):
but I am not I'm not an expertin this in this way, like, and I
know it'll be easy for me tolike flow into it once I know it
more deeply.
And I, of course, I've beenthrough it, I've experienced it
personally and all of thosethings.
But I think there's so muchthat's here to to learn, like
(30:50):
for us.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah.
One of the things that reallyfascinates me is how early the
brain changes happen, becauseyou can do an MRI and see that
somebody is pregnant before theycould pee on a stick and
discover they're pregnant, likethat's how immediate those
changes begin to happen and itreally, you know, it changes,
(31:14):
changes us completely and itlasts for years.
Changes us completely and itlasts for years.
Right, yeah, it's, I mean, I inmy mind it's, it's forever.
It's the rest of your life,because your children are
constantly going throughdifferent developmental stages,
so you, you as the mother, alsogoing right along with them.
And I'm, my oldest daughter,just turned 18.
And so I'm moving into, youknow, parenting an adult, and
(31:40):
and I and I've been thinkingabout how, like you know, really
our, our relationship, or wantthat to be with her, and I'm so
grateful that she, for whateverreason, has always stayed
(32:05):
connected to me and tells meeverything.
Like I was not like that withmy mother.
Once I hit puberty and I was inmy teen years, I did not share
things with my mother, but mydaughter shares everything with
me and it's, it's just reallysweet and I, I, yeah, I want to
keep those open lines ofcommunication as she continues.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful tale of
like how well you've done inthis whole journey and, yes,
there's been struggles, but youhave remained so connected
through the process as a motherlike that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, and I think you know,being a mother that has worked
through mental health stuff,that the guilt and the shame
that for me is like crushingwhen, when I'm in a dip, and I
just know that my my best as amother when I'm in a dip is
looks very, very different thanmy best when I'm feeling well,
(33:02):
and and I just like have allthis like anxiety about you know
what kinds of therapy they'regoing to need because of having
a mom that that suffers frombipolar disorder.
And, um, and I actually justshared with them the older one
knew, but the younger two I justtold them about my diagnosis a
couple months ago and, um, I waslike you know how sometimes mom
(33:25):
seems like she's really sad.
You know, this is what I, thisis what I ago, and I was like
you know how sometimes mom seemslike she's really sad.
You know, this is what I, thisis what I have, and and I think
it was good just to give themlike a framework or a context so
that they're not internalizingit as something that they're
doing.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That open communication again.
Yeah, my, my oldest is going tobe 16 here soon and he tells me
everything.
So, like I, my favorite momentsis when he he can just like
crawl in bed and he'll just sithere and just talk for hours of
like all the things and telljokes and crack you know all the
(34:02):
funny things and just also tellthe intimate stories of what's
happening in school, and he'svery easygoing.
And then I have my threedaughters and my oldest daughter
is 11 and things are not aseasy.
Like there's a lot of emotion,right, she's about to enter into
, you know, monarchy and likethat whole space and uh, I'm
(34:27):
very excited for for that andbeing there for her.
But I also recognize likethere's, I feel, like all the
different things, like I haven'tbeen through this with a girl
before and this way this is myfirst daughter and so, um, yeah,
I'm, I'm just trying to tryingto navigate all of that as a as
(34:47):
a mother, that not having thatas as a woman myself, like I was
not that person who had thatrelationship with my mom.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Right, yeah, and I think that's part of the work of
matrescence and this was, um.
What I brought forth in myprenatal group yesterday is this
that happens during pregnancy,but it's an ongoing process of
like psychological nesting.
When you're pregnant, whereyou're we?
We always hear about thephysical nesting that happens at
the end of pregnancy, but Ifeel like second trimester, when
(35:20):
you're more comfortable it'susually the most comfortable
time of the pregnancy there's akind of psychological nesting
where you're thinking about yourrelationship with your own
mother and what you want to takefrom that and what you want to
leave behind and what new thingsyou want to bring in into your
own identity as a mother.
And and that's really, like youknow, an ongoing work.
(35:43):
And I think one of the one ofthe things that we're all things
that came out kind of as atheme in the group yesterday is
how most of us were not raisedwith knowledge of emotional
intelligence and what that lookslike and how to hold space for
the so-called negative emotionsfear, anger, jealousy,
disappointment and for me it waslike I was a very sensitive
(36:09):
baby and child and I was madefun of for that and I was.
You know, there was thissuppression of those kind of the
anything that was not likepeace and love and happiness and
so, and I think that that is,you know, just culturally,
something that has gone on foryears, where toddlers and young
(36:30):
children are kind of notsupposed to have meltdowns or
not supposed to have these bigfeelings that they have, that
(36:51):
are here now, are really tryingto pivot from that and be able
to teach their children how todownregulate and that what
you're feeling is okay and it'svalid and let's see how we can
move through this.
But yeah, I think part of thework of matrescence is like
breaking the lineage for thingsthat are negative, that we don't
want to bring into our ownchildren and our relationship
(37:13):
with our children.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I love that that you had just mentioned that, because
that was actually aconversation that I had with my
mom right before Mother's Day.
Right before Mother's Day, andshe has a lot of guilt about how
she's raised us and she talksabout it openly, about the
things that have happened in mychildhood that she regrets or
feels guilty and she asks allthe time how did that affect you
, how did that change you?
(37:37):
And I was having a conversationwith her the other day and I
was like you know, mom, you knowshe's asking the questions
again and I was like, look, yourgeneration and the generation
before, like what happened withyour mom, and like that was not
a generation that was given anysort of coping skills, like you
were not taught how to do that.
And we're the first generation.
(37:58):
Really I feel like to say waita second, like what are my
coping skills?
To start normalizing thingslike therapy and counseling and
nervous system regulation, likethose were not terms that were
used and and things that wereacceptable in the generations
before.
And and that's how we're.
A lot of us are breaking thesegenerational traumas and and
(38:21):
things and you know how do wedeal with disappointment and
fear and shame and and all ofthose things.
And you know how do we dealwith disappointment and fear and
shame and all of those things.
And you know, and she there waslike such a sigh of relief when
I had said that to her and shewas like, yeah, yeah, I was
never taught that, I had no idea, my mom didn't know any of that
(38:42):
, and it was just like, wow,like you can hear the release
from her.
And so I think, like the workthat we're doing now is not just
for our children.
You know our, our births andour journeys as mothers and the
ups and downs and everything inbetween.
We're also healing thegenerations before us and
(39:05):
they're witnessing of us,generations before us.
Yeah, and they're witnessing ofus and having these open
conversations.
It's a beautiful thing, wow.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I love that.
I've never thought of it likethat, thank you, yeah, I'm
curious what you do to balance,because you're a mom of four and
you're an entrepreneur, justlike myself and like so many of
the the moms that I serve, and Ialways like to ask about you
know, what you do to replenishyourself and how you kind of
(39:35):
juggle the two things, all thedifferent things yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
First off, I don't do it alone.
Like I think that's andforemost.
I have a husband who shows up110%, not 80%, not a hundred
percent.
Like he rearranges his workschedule to handle school
pickups and drop-offs and sportsand running errands to the
(40:05):
store and grocery shopping.
Like he handles a lot, he alsocooks a lot.
So I feel like I have a lot ofphysical and emotional support
from my husband when it comes toall things home related, you
know.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Which is a huge blessing.
You know, we've been marriedalmost 11 years and I thought
that was not possible.
I was a single mom for a reallylong time and I had sworn off
men.
I was like I cannot do thisanymore.
But I tell you they exist.
If anybody is in that space,you know, an amazing man is out
(40:45):
there and available.
Uh, and I and I, I have one um,I'm very, very grateful for him
.
And then I all have otherpeople in my life too.
I have an executive assistantin my in my business.
I have somebody else who doespodcast editing, I have a team,
I have several other people onmy team that helps me with my
business and and all of that.
So I think those, think thoseare set up.
(41:07):
And I also you know youmentioned and I was talking
about in my podcast too you knowthe ups and downs of bipolar.
Like you have these moments ofhigh where you feel like you
have all the energy and you cando all the things, and that
might last for some time.
And then you have these lows,and I also feel that in just
like the cyclical rhythm of thefemale body, and it's not
(41:31):
necessarily a low, I wouldn'tcall it like manic or depressive
or anything like that.
But there are times in ourcycle where we are more apt to
get more things done and feelenergized and ready to go, and
then there are times where it'slike I just don't have the
energy right now or this is notwhat.
This is not going to bring mejoy.
(41:52):
I just don't feel like this issomething for me right now, even
though I set it up a coupleweeks ago.
Like I now I want to say no,you know, and honoring a lot of
that in my life and recognizingmy cyclical rhythms as a female,
as a woman and my cycles andhow much they dictate my energy
(42:13):
in the best of ways, like thisis not.
I'm not talking about imbalance, I'm not talking about mental
health here, but I think reallyhonoring that and stepping into
that space.
I was having a conversation withsomebody not too long ago and
she was like how do you manageyour time?
Like, cause, you have so much.
(42:33):
I have 40 acres in Alaska ontop of it, so we're homesteading
and four kids and my daughter'sa competitive gymnast, my other
is a rodeo gal who does barrelracing and so it's all summer
long.
As horses I mean hours andhours a day, like how do we, how
do we do all of that?
And and I was like you knowwhat, if you just think of your
(42:58):
you're a queen, you're, you're aqueen, you're a damn queen you
show up in your life as a queen,you treat yourself like a queen
and you say yes to the thingsthat you know that belong in
your queendom and you say no tothe things that don't.
And I think when we honorourselves in that way even
though it sounds funny, like Isay it and I'm like it's kind of
(43:19):
it sounds a little silly, butat the same time it's like
there's immense relief thatcomes from that and like I am
important and I am valuable andwith it also comes a great
responsibility.
Right, a queen is not somebodywho's just like she works with
everyone right In her wholecommunity, but at the same time,
(43:40):
like there's this there'svaluing yourself and valuing
your time and valuing yourenergy and where you are in the
world.
And I think when we make that areality, then it's so much
easier to set up your system,set up your life, set up I don't
have additional things that Ihave to do for my health that
(44:02):
feel like, oh, I've got to do X,y, z or I got to add this in.
It just is that's part of mylife, right, because I've built
the systems around living ahealthy, abundant life, and that
has taken a really, really longtime.
There's a quote that I saw theother day.
It was like um I, I asked Godfor flowers and he gave me rain.
(44:27):
And it's like that's the firststep, right.
But oftentimes we look at therain and we're like, why did you
give me the rain?
Right, and it's the cleansing,it's the getting the soil ready,
and so sometimes you know thatwe can know what we want, but we
have to recognize that we haveto release and let go, and
(44:48):
that's a long, that's years ofwork.
Sometimes, you know, and beingokay with that release and the
shifts that come with it, now Iembrace them rather than fear
them.
And you know, maybe it'ssomething that has taken.
It's taken me 40 years.
I turned 40 this year, so youknow, we'll see yeah.
(45:10):
We'll see, we'll see where thatgoes, but yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
The first thing that came out of your mouth when I
asked you about you know,juggling it all, was that you
said you don't.
You don't do it alone, becauseI think that that's in my work.
I talk a lot about archetypesand the different archetypes for
motherhood.
So we have the martyr, who waslike the reigning archetype for
years and years and years,before women had any identity
outside of wife and mother.
And then, with the rise of thefirst wave of feminism, we got
(45:45):
the super mom.
And the super mom sounds, youknow, really glorious because
now she's got the freedom to,you know, have an identity
outside of a motherhood, have acareer, pursue higher education
and higher callings.
But ultimately we just addedmore to our plate because we
didn't take off the martyrdom,we didn't take off the
(46:06):
caregiving.
We're still, for the most part,the primary care providers and
now often we are the primaryfinancial providers for the
family.
And the super mom Also the, the,the super mom is expected to do
it all alone because she's a,she's a superhero and and she's
actually killing us Like that'swhy we see all the burnout and
(46:35):
the overwhelm and the depressionand anxiety is like this super
mom archetype and what I am, inmy work, trying to midwife into
being is what I call the motherfly.
And the mother fly is a motherwho is soaring, she's flying,
she's connected to her dreamsand her visions and she's
actually thriving in motherhood.
And there's three keycomponents to the mother fly.
Number one is the container.
(46:57):
I call the container, andthat's like, we're containers
for our children.
We hold space for them, wecreate a safe space where they
can be nurtured and developwithin, and so we have to create
a container for ourselves, andthat's made up of self-care and
self-compassion.
And I think the self-care oftendoesn't happen for moms because
(47:20):
the self-compassion piece ismissing and that's a whole other
thing that we could dive into.
But then there's the second keyis missing, and that's a whole
nother thing that we could diveinto.
But then there's the second keyis creativity, and creativity is
just, you know that, being intouch with our passions and our
dreams and really, ultimately,it's about our connection to the
(47:40):
divine, because when we'reconnected to the divine,
creativity just flows through us.
And then the third piece iscommunity, and that's where we
have to shift out of this, likeI have to do it alone and
recognize that you know, ittakes a village to raise a child
, but it also takes a village toraise a mother and we we really
need each other to to thrive.
(48:04):
And you know, when we think ofthe classic symbol of
transformation, you know wethink of the butterfly and the
caterpillar to the butterfly.
And what creates the safe spacefor that caterpillar to turn
into a butterfly because itactually has to literally
dissolve and turn into mush andthen reform as the butterfly
(48:25):
what makes that safe space isthe chrysalis.
And for mothers, the chrysalisis the village, it's the
community, and we can't get veryfar without that.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
I relate to this so much.
I was that super woman for areally long time I was actually.
I got pregnant with my fourthand I was not expecting a fourth
.
And I remember sitting down atthe table with my husband and I
was like I don't know how I can,I'm going to be able to do all
(49:00):
of this with another baby.
And he looked at me allchippery and he was like you can
do everything, you're superwoman.
And it it hit me in that moment.
It was like a fuse just wentoff and I stood up from the
table and I like my hands hitthe table and I was like I don't
want to be super woman.
(49:21):
I am done with Sue, like it waslike a whole thing.
And he was like what?
Like?
What's happening here?
You know, I was like I don'twant to be super woman.
This is not what I signed upfor.
I don't want to do everything.
Can I do everything?
Sure, but I'm going to.
You know, I'm like going off.
You know, having thisconversation.
He's like are you even talkingto me anymore?
(49:41):
But I was like no, I'm notgoing to do this because I'm
just going to burn out, and thenI'm going to do it again and
then I'm going to burn out andthat's why, you know, so many
women have, as you mentioned,like mental health disorders but
also autoimmune disease, andyou know I was like I can't, I
can't do that, I'm not going todo that to myself.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
And that was really a revelation for me and for him
too, and I think that was reallythe beginning of our shift in
our relationship, where he waslike okay, what do I need to do?
That's different.
And I had to communicate a lotmore to him, because it wasn't
(50:22):
always him just showing up anddoing all of the things.
It wasn't always him justshowing up and doing all of the
things.
I think that happened over timewhere it was like hey, no, this
is not where I am going to bethe martyr anymore and I need
support here, and I need supporthere and I need support here.
Is that going to be somethingyou do or is it someone we're
hiring?
Like what's the thing?
(50:43):
It wasn't a question of like oh, I really just need help, will
you help me.
It was like no, this is thethings that I'm no longer going
to be responsible for, and it'seither you or it's someone else,
cause it's not me.
And there was a lot of that backand forth and that's where we
are today and I like it's anongoing conversation.
(51:07):
It never ends Like we're alwayslike we're looking at summer.
Right now, I've got four kidsout of school, I work and he
works and it's like, okay, whatare we going to do?
How are we going to split thisso that we both get the time
that we need?
And you know it's ongoing wherewe're.
You know, scenarios are alwaysshifting and changing.
(51:30):
But yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Well, you could probably do a whole course on
how to, how to create that kindof transformation in your
partner.
I mean, that's pretty amazingthat that he, you know that you
had, he wasn't always like thatand he is now, and that, I think
, is a testament to you know,your, your queendom, and and how
you communicate and how youexpress your expectations.
(51:53):
And and I just wanted to say Iknow we have to close soon, but
those old archetypes the martyrand the super mom the thing
about them is that they'repatriarchal and they come from
you know, this idea of, like,the rugged individual which is,
which is the symbol of power inin this, in this country, um,
which is very patriarchal, it's,it's very like, uh,
(52:15):
hierarchical and um, and yeah,not relationship based, and the
motherfly is very much aboutrelationship to to self, to the
divine and to others.
And we get there throughthrough conversations like these
and we get there throughcircles and communities and I
(52:35):
I'm just so thankful for thepeople in my life that have
supported me and the communitiesthat I'm a part of, without
which I would, I would have whoknows I might not be here,
without which I would, I wouldhave who knows I might not be
here.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Likewise, I feel the exact same way.
I probably would not be herewithout the community or like
those, those small, thoseindividuals, coming at the right
time.
You know we're here for areason Both of us.
Such a beautiful conversation.
Thank you so much for your time.
Like I can't believe, it'staken years to make this happen.
(53:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yeah, it's been lovely and I'm glad that we did
it combined.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yes, so good, so good .
All right, thanks everyone.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
(53:35):
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer, and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelongwell-being.
So today we're going to dosomething a lot different than
what we have normally done, andso if you're listening into the
Postpartum University podcast,you know me.
(00:43):
I'm Miranda Bauer, and I havebeen doing this work for many,
many years, teaching and servingpostpartum providers and
mothers for quite some time over15 years and really supporting
them and understanding thesephysiological and psychological
changes that are occurring inthe postpartum period, and by
(01:03):
postpartum, of course, we're nottalking about the first few
weeks or even months, but theseveral years that it takes to
really be in this space in thisseason, and I'm here today
chatting with Karina Finch,who's been on the Postpartum
University podcast before, andshe had shared her story and her
(01:27):
journey into having threedaughters and her mental health
battle and being a midwifethrough all of that.
It's actually one of our mostpopular episodes, and so I
highly recommend listening tothat and I'll link it in the
postpartum university podcast.
But we're also going to havethis recording on Karina's
(01:49):
podcast and so I'm going to lether come in now and introduce
herself and her podcast and allthe things and we're just going
to have a beautiful chat aboutour origin stories and where
we've been through andmatrescence and all of these
things and how interconnectedthey are.
So I'm going to stop talking.
(02:10):
I'm going to let you come innow.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you, miranda.
I'm really excited that we'redoing this this way.
Where we were each going to beguests on each other's podcast,
we decided to do a combinedversion.
So I'm Karina Fitch and I am amidwife of 25 years.
I have three daughters and I,after the birth of my third
daughter, I experienced severepostpartum depression and
(02:35):
anxiety, which later morphedinto bipolar disorder.
I actually worked with Mirandaand her program, which was
really helpful for me in workingon the nutritional aspect of my
journey.
But that led me to become verypassionate about maternal
wellness and empowerment,because I didn't want any mother
(02:56):
to experience what I wentthrough, and so I started a new
organization called Motherflywhich is in service to maternal
wellness and empowerment, and Inow I have programs for pregnant
mamas and seasoned mothers tohelp support them to shift out
of survival mode and burnout andoverwhelm and into thriving.
(03:19):
And also, what I'm reallyinterested in and supporting is
and what I see and witness overand over again in my work is how
, when mothers thrive, ummatrescence actually becomes an
enrichment program and it'sactually a portal to our most
powerful, potent selves, to ourfullest, fully expressed selves,
(03:41):
and it's actually designed toup-level us, but without the
right kinds of support, it canfeel and be traumatic, and so
I'm really excited to be in thisconversation about matrescence
with Miranda, who is somebodythat I deeply admire and am
inspired by.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Thank you.
That is so beautiful.
Our stories are so similarbecause I just released on the
podcast my story throughpostpartum bipolar and you were
just sharing with me before westarted recording.
Like how different our storiesare, but the same, the same
thing, right?
And I'm curious because you'vebeen a midwife for many, many
years before children, right?
(04:20):
How did having children changeyour midwifery practice?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So I had been practicing as a midwife for
seven years before I had myfirst daughter and that birth
process, as most first births go, was long and challenging and
extremely humbling for me.
I remember my clients at thattime were like, oh, are you?
You're not going to have amidwife, right, you're just
(04:47):
going to do it on your own?
And I was like, are you kiddingme?
Of course I'm going to have amidwife, like just because I
know things.
And in fact, because I knowthings, it can.
I think it actually made itharder.
So I feel like what I got out ofthat experience was was really
understanding what I meant whenI said for so many years, it's
the woman that does the hardwork, because a lot of times
(05:10):
people like to say, oh, um, youknow, you delivered my baby or
whatever, and it's like, no,actually you delivered your baby
, I was just there supportingyou.
Um, but what it also taught menot so much, uh, just the birth,
but the, the, the motheringpart, the postpartum journey was
how essential self-care was insupporting myself as a mother.
(05:35):
I was a single mom, I was amidwife and with midwifery,
you're on call 24-7, 365.
And same with being a mom,you're on call all the time, so
it was I.
It was very easy to burn outand I started to really weave
into my prenatal teachings thisidea that self-care is the
foundation for motherhood and ifwe don't take care of ourselves
(05:58):
, then we really are not goingto be able to offer much to our
children to be able to offermuch to our children.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I feel that really deeply because I was in the very
beginning stages after Istarted my work, after having
kids, it was actually like thething that fueled me I was
always really interested in, inscience and birth and all things
woman, womanly, like, womanrelated, and I became a doula
after having my, my son, andagain it's like you're on call
all the time, 24, seven, 365.
(06:31):
And it was a lot of of work.
To you know, I was strugglingwith depression and I became a
single mom and I was trying tonavigate like this whole world
of like the things that I knew,because I was deeply embedded in
all of the knowledge and youknow, the studies and everything
(06:51):
, and then trying to work onmyself and also trying to like
grow my business and supportothers.
And that was really hard.
And you just said somethingthat really caught me.
You said being a midwife likeof course you'd have a midwife
because things would be harder,like it's often harder.
(07:12):
I I have to point that outbecause I feel that so deeply I
feel like being I was achildbirth educator for many
years a coach, you know I'vebeen in this field for 15 years
only like half the time you butI just like I felt like I knew
all the things and then I gotcaught up in my head so much and
(07:34):
like dismissed so much of myown emotional, physical needs
because I thought, but you knowall the science, like I had so
much going on in my head, right,I remember giving birth to my
second and I specificallyremember going through
contractions and telling myselfyou need to suck it up.
(07:57):
Yeah, this is hard, but you'rein the very early stages, like
you're you know, just now havingbloody show.
Like you're maybe four or fivecentimeters, suck it up.
I gave birth to her fiveminutes later.
Wow, which number baby was that?
That was number two.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but I thought I kneweverything right and I was
(08:20):
already in my head and I hadbeen doing this work for years
at this point in time, and so itwas so funny how and not so
funny like I didn't treat myselfvery well, like that was not an
okay thing for me to, to betelling myself but it was
because I was so in my head,rather than taking a step back
and like really feeling where amI in this journey?
(08:41):
And yeah, I, just I relate tothat.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's so interesting .
It's like for me with my first,my midwife mind really got in
my way.
I was overthinking my labor.
I was convinced that I wascause.
I stalled at six centimetersfor about seven hours and my
cervix got swollen.
And I remember I was convincedthat my midwives were on the
couch plotting my transport tothe hospital.
(09:06):
And then, with my seconddaughter, my midwifery skills
came in handy.
I was able to check my owncervix and it felt amazing to
feel with my midwife fingers,like the dilation, but also know
what it felt like on the insideof to have a cervix that open
and a head that low, and it wasjust a completely different
(09:29):
experience.
They're they're all so unique.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I love that.
I did that too with my fourth,to just be able to feel like
what was happening and Iremember on my fourth I had a
very fast labor, it was only 55minutes but to be able to like
feel the whole process.
And at one point I ended upsticking around in the bathroom
because when I put my my handsin I could feel the whole bag of
(09:53):
waters just hanging out of meand like this big bulbous, you
know, and I was like, oh, that'sgoing to burst here real soon,
you know, like I'm just going tohold tight and be in this space
that's going to be able tocapture it, rather than on my
floor and carpet.
It was, it was.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It was something that came in handy, but it was also
something that took a long timefor that to happen you know
Right, it's like cultivating thewisdom to know when that comes
in handy and when to be just inyour intuitive, laboring body
and mind as a woman.
(10:32):
You know that's what I like.
Nahama's birth, my first.
It took me so far outside ofwhat I knew as a midwife and so
deep inside of myself as a womanthat I was transformed woman
that I was transformed.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I love that.
The last time that I spoke withyou, you had Motherfly going
and you were working so hard onlike bringing this, this
business, to life, and thingshave shifted dramatically.
I haven't talked to you in sometime but you have recently kind
of like brought togethermidwifery and dance, which is a
huge part of your work andcoaching, and and like this
transformative work into what itis that you're doing now and
(11:13):
I'd love to hear more about likehow that all transpired and how
was that like birthed into theworld by your experiences?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, it's been.
It's been a journey and it'sbeen.
You know, I always I love thelabyrinth as a metaphor for
birth and postpartum and justany journey of transformation,
and it's certainly been alabyrinthine pathway because of
the mental health stuff thatI've been traversing.
And what I appreciated a lotabout your episode on the
(11:45):
bipolar was what, how you weresaying, you know, on the, on the
days that you were manic, youwere like getting shit done and
like laying stuff out and andthat's what I've had to learn to
do is like be very productivein my, in my higher times, which
I naturally am it's like I,it's easy for me, I wake up, I
(12:08):
have energy, I do all myself-care, Um, and I'm currently
in a business program right nowto uh for supporting holistic
coaches and healers and it'svery robust, and so I have lots
of support and I'm just gettingall the stuff done.
And right now what I'm doingalso is putting hiring people to
(12:29):
be my support when I hit what Icall them dips, when I hit a
depressive dip, because whenthat happens, everything comes
to a screeching halt and I'mlike I'm not on social media I
despise social media in thosemoments and I'm just not doing
the things that I need to do tomove the business forward.
So I'm getting an apprenticefor my membership group.
(12:51):
I have a, an ongoing membershipgroup that started four years
ago.
We just celebrated our fourthyear together um this past
weekend and it's called thematrescent circle and that's for
moms with um, with children ofany age.
We have some people with babiesand other people with adult
children and it's just a reallybeautiful community where we
(13:14):
explore different aspects ofmatrescence and there's that
giving and receiving of supportthat creates really a rich
container for transformationwhen you have a community like
that.
And then I have my MotherThrive program, which used to be
called Mother Birth and it wasoriginally designed for pregnant
(13:37):
women to basically midwife theprocess of mother birth Like we,
we prepare for childbirth butwe don't really prepare for
mother birth and mother birth isactually a lot more complex and
transformational andlife-changing than you know.
Childbirth, which is, you know,a few hours or maybe a few days
(13:59):
of your life if you have a longbirth.
So, but I opened it up tomothers with children of any age
because I realized that mostmoms have not had a guide like a
matrescence midwife, a guide tohelp them navigate all of the
complex changes.
And and I use tools fromFeminine Power.
(14:20):
I'm a certified Feminine Powerfacilitator and I use the dance
um, I just had a group, aprenatal group, yesterday where
we did some belly dance and um,and then I just use, uh, various
tools that I've learned alongmy own personal journey of being
a spiritual seeker and and, ofcourse, my journey through
(14:41):
mental health.
Um, so those are the main twoofferings that I have right now
and along with my podcast, whichI didn't say the name in the
beginning but it's called MotherTongue and it is a space where
I interview moms who are workingto empower mothers in some way,
(15:02):
shape or form, and it's reallyabout removing the patriarchy
from motherhood, from theinstitution of motherhood,
through each conversation.
A hot topic, yeah, yeah, Iactually kind of linked that
together.
After I went a few, severalyears back, I went to a ketamine
(15:23):
clinic to help with as anothertool for the mental health and
in my sessions the therapistthat was with me mentioned the
book Burnout.
Are you familiar with that book?
I've heard of it.
Yeah, it helped, really helpedme to clarify that connection in
(15:46):
my work, just with in in my ownpersonal journey as, as a woman
, um, how, like dismantling thepatriarchy is part of my healing
.
And then that's actually whatI'm doing with mothers.
Um, and I know you.
When I, when I worked with you,you were your focus was working
one-on-one with moms as a coach, and now that's shifted to the
(16:09):
postpartum university, where youare teaching doctors and
midwives and nurses aboutnutrition and hormones, right Is
that?
Yeah, yeah, you want to sharemore about that.
Yeah, yeah, you want to sharemore about that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I loved working with moms, like that was, that was my
thing for so many years, somany years.
And I noticed that so many likethis, this was the
transformation for me as I I wasgoing through my own issues and
I felt like I had to find.
You know, I was going to allthese providers getting the
(16:45):
support that I needed, likenobody knew, or I would just
walk away with some newdiagnosis, like really that's
what happened.
I've had so many diagnoses.
(17:06):
It's unbelievable, and I neverfelt like I was getting any help
.
So I mean, that's that's reallywhere my education kind of
dived into was how am Isupporting myself?
How am I healing my body?
What is even possible here?
And there's a lot ofgenerational work that happened
in there.
There was a lot of physicalwork, nutritional, psychological
(17:27):
, and kind of just putting itall together with my, my
background in science andbiology and really just kind of
like honed in and like foundspecific certifications that
would work with me and peoplethat would, that would have kind
of walked this path before, andalso working alongside the
(17:48):
mothers that I was serving andseeing their questions, seeing
their journeys and put I put somany pieces together.
It was just like mind blowing,and I I don't share this enough,
but I often feel like my workis not my work, this is God's
work.
This is a higher powers work.
It is just coming through me,and I know that sounds weird.
(18:11):
I'm not like trying to say thatI'm like a God's gift or
anything of the nature.
I'm just saying that I have hadlike some really horrific
experiences and they have servedsuch a beautiful purpose and I
have witnessed how much I havebeen able to assimilate certain
information and not even as aprovider I'm not a doctor, I'm
(18:33):
not a midwife and to be able totake this and cohesively give it
over to someone else who isable to therefore use it for
themselves and help their ownbodies heal.
And then, when I was doing thatfor years and a lot of women
were walking away feelingimmensely different in their
(18:54):
bodies, so much better, right,they were getting off
medications for thyroid,antidepressants, anti-anxiety
meds, and of course, they were,you know, working with their
providers to do all of this andit was a beautiful thing.
But their, their doctors, werecoming to me and saying what
were you doing?
Like how, how are you?
How are you doing this?
Like I've been working withthis client for four years or
(19:15):
five years and that's the truth.
Like so many of the women that Iwas coming to and I actually
I've never shared this before,I'll share this here, but a lot
of the women that were coming tome, I kind of built a
reputation for the good thingsthat I was doing for women and I
would have them come to me andsay, miranda, nobody's been able
(19:36):
to help me.
I've seen four or five, sixproviders.
I've been on all thesupplements I've done.
You know all the diets, all thefads.
I've done, all I've seen.
You know the chiropractor andthe acupuncturist and I've done
everything.
You have no idea and I don'tthink that I can continue doing
this.
If you don't help me, I don'tknow where else I can go.
(20:01):
And I felt like this immenseresponsibility of holding space
for these women and like if theydon't get the healing that they
need from me, then I havefailed them and I don't know
what's going to happen, becausethey're they're telling me that
their mental health is not okayand I can work alongside other
providers, but they're tellingme that their counselor, their
third counselor, whomever youknow, is not working and I felt
(20:25):
so much fear and so muchresponsibility and I didn't know
how to handle that.
I'm not a medical provider.
Like this is not.
Like I'm just going to code,I'm just going to give you the
tools that I have and I'm goingto help walk you through it and
hold your hand.
And yeah, it got.
It got really hard for that.
And I kept thinking to myself,like this is this is not okay.
(20:48):
Like they're going to theirprovider first and they're
feeling like that's failedimmensely, so much so that many
of the women that I've workedwith were telling me that if I,
you know, don't help, then thiswas the end of the road for them
.
Or they would go through myentire program and then tell me
and I actually have a couple ofrecordings on the podcast of
(21:11):
women saying if this didn't workfor me, you know, by the end of
the session, like thankfully itworked, but I didn't tell you
that I was going to end my life,and it didn't matter how much
screening I did for this right,like you could do all of the
screenings and everything, andthere's some things that you'll
just never pick up.
Yeah, anyway, it was.
(21:31):
It was really hard, and so Ithink that was the big shift for
me is when I had I hadproviders in my inbox all the
time Will you do a training, canyou?
Can you call me, you know?
And then I had this pressure onthis other side.
You know these moms who werestruggling immensely and not
getting the support from theproviders and then thinking I
was their last ditch effort andI was like no, no, no, no, no,
(21:53):
this has got to change.
And if they were wanting thisinformation then I guess I'll be
the person to share it.
And that's basically whathappened.
I launched a, a betacertification program for my
nutrition, which is what I wasreally famous for at the time,
and it sold out like three timesin a row and it was just like
(22:14):
wow, it was amazing.
And I was like, okay, this isit, and I guess this is where
we'll go, and it just it'sreally transformed over the last
several years to what it istoday and I'm grateful for it.
It's taken a lot of pressureoff of me for one and two.
(22:36):
I'm really getting to help momsat the root, where they need to
be supported and held, you know, where the system is already
right.
And then I'm also working ondismantling the patriarchy and
other ways to help redefine andreshift the system that we work
in.
That will never fully be themodel of care that we women need
(23:01):
to heal, but what we've beengiven at the time and so yeah,
that's that's the story, wow,amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Um, and how have the like the physicians were they?
Did they have any resistance toyou because you weren't a
doctor or some other type of?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
practice, healthcare practice oh, I've, I've had
everything I've had you know themost.
Like, how come nobody's evertaught me this?
Or I have got multitude ofdegrees and certifications and
I've never heard of this.
And so, like and and like I,I'm upset with my education.
I've spent so much money andyou've taught me more than ever,
right, and I've gotten that.
(23:41):
And then I've also gotten fromthe general public, like, who do
you think you are?
You're?
You're not a doctor, you haveno reason to be here.
I've, I had one if I I won'tshare the name publicly, but
there's one provider who'sfairly big.
She has her own podcast, she'sgot 30 plus books, like she's
(24:04):
been in women's health for formany, many, many eons.
And somebody that I looked upto and I had actually joined her
program for an herbal course.
Herbs, or something that I'vejust have connected me to mother
nature and the earth.
And being in Alaska on 40 acres, like, I have a lot I forage
all the time and my own backyard.
(24:24):
I'm very blessed with that.
But I I've just used herbs.
All of you know my adult lifeand I use it in my, my practice
as well.
So I thought, ah, this would besuch a beautiful thing for me to
go through when I applied and Iwas accepted and then it was at
the time that my bookReclaiming Postpartum Wellness
was coming out and I asked herto review it and we sent it to
(24:49):
her.
She said she had said yes, goton our mailing list.
I was so thrilled, right, likeshe was such this famous person,
and then all of a sudden, likeI can't access the course
anymore, and it was.
It was a big ordeal.
She eventually responded backto me saying, yeah, we kicked
you out.
You're not qualified to teachwhat you teach and we don't.
(25:12):
You don't belong here.
And it was just like the mostyou know awful experience.
I just bawled my eyes out.
For a few days.
I actually had to hire a lawyerto get my money back from the
course.
It was, it was a disaster,right, somebody that I looked up
to and I really wanted to learnfrom.
And here she is telling me thatI'm not good enough, you know,
(25:35):
and that happens, it happens,and I think, no matter what it
is that we do, there's alwaysgoing to be those people in the
world Like if you put yourselfout there on social media,
you're going to get somethingright, like this is just the
something that I get, and I'mokay with that because I know
the value that I bring to thetable.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's where you really have to
sink into that value that youbring.
And you know, I mean you'vechanged, you're changing lives,
you've changed lives and I thinkit's beautiful to watch you
change your niche kind of fromthe moms to the providers.
Because that's something that Ikind of envision for the future
(26:14):
is to have a program that's forbirth workers whether they're
childbirth educators, midwives,doctors, lactation consultants
or anyone that's just passionateabout matrescence to have a
program that like a training tobecome a matrescence midwife,
where you're actually not justsupporting childbirth but you're
(26:34):
supporting the mother birth.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I love that and I think our world is shifting
significantly, to be in a spacethat I think allows that so much
more, because we're looking atso much change, especially in
the postpartum space, right, Ithink, and maybe just because
I'm inundated with it, but I dosee a lot of legislative work in
(27:00):
regard to postpartum care, andhere in the state of Alaska, a
new law has passed that allowsmidwives to care for women and
insurance cover it for the firstyear after having a baby, so no
longer the first six weeks,which is amazing, right, but
that's the perfect blend intothe matriarch sense.
(27:22):
I think midwives and providersthey don't have necessarily that
training to go that long, andso they're looking for, okay,
what do I do?
What's my protocols, what's my?
How do I get into this space?
How do I offer this?
There was a New Jersey alsopassed a law saying that all
postpartum moms have to have acare plan.
(27:42):
So they're all like scrambling,like what the heck is a care
plan and what do I do?
Right, that's great.
So I think that there's it's,it's like trickling in, but that
work that you do is so, so,incredibly beautiful, and I
think we're in a space now thatthat is going to become a thing
(28:06):
where women and providers aregoing to be seeking that out.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, unfortunately, it'staken us getting to such a low
point to to make folks realizethat we're actually in crisis.
With, you know, the maternalmental health being where it's
at and um, suicide being one ofthe leading causes of death for
mothers.
It's like, okay, if that's nota wake up call, then then I
(28:32):
don't know what it is.
And so, starting I and I andthat's why I'm also so
passionate about the wordmatrescence and the idea of
matrescence, which is somethingthat I learned maybe six years
ago, that word, and I've been inthe midwife for 25 years so,
like most people don't know whatthat word is.
And I feel, like you know, if we, if we don't, if we don't have
(28:56):
a name for something, then howcan we possibly support it
properly?
You know, with adolescents,everyone knows that word and we
do our best to support it.
We understand that.
You know, children at thatstage are going to be going
through different changes.
But matrescence is somethingthat is relatively it's an old
word, but it's a new concept formost people, and so one of my
(29:19):
missions is to make it ahousehold word, like adolescence
, that everybody knows about andunderstands that, like you know
, you wouldn't.
You wouldn't plan a weddingwithout a wedding planner,
without support, right.
So why would you take on, youknow, this transformation into
motherhood without a mentor orguide or a community?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I love that I was actually.
I have a podcast episode that Ijust recorded not too long ago
with Jesse Harold.
She wrote a book on matrescenceand I opened up that podcast
episode and it's not it'll beout in June but I was like tell
me about matri science.
And she was like, well,actually it's pronounced this
(30:07):
way.
And I was like, oh my God, Iactually had to coach myself
throughout the whole episode andI left everything in there, so
everybody will be able to hearme work through this.
But I think that I mean, I'vebeen in this field for 15 years
and I still am learning at likeI just learned how to pronounce
it correctly, like, yes, I'veread it, yes, I, I know of it,
(30:28):
but I am not I'm not an expertin this in this way, like, and I
know it'll be easy for me tolike flow into it once I know it
more deeply.
And I, of course, I've beenthrough it, I've experienced it
personally and all of thosethings.
But I think there's so muchthat's here to to learn, like
(30:50):
for us.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah.
One of the things that reallyfascinates me is how early the
brain changes happen, becauseyou can do an MRI and see that
somebody is pregnant before theycould pee on a stick and
discover they're pregnant, likethat's how immediate those
changes begin to happen and itreally, you know, it changes,
(31:14):
changes us completely and itlasts for years.
Changes us completely and itlasts for years.
Right, yeah, it's, I mean, I inmy mind it's, it's forever.
It's the rest of your life,because your children are
constantly going throughdifferent developmental stages,
so you, you as the mother, alsogoing right along with them.
And I'm, my oldest daughter,just turned 18.
And so I'm moving into, youknow, parenting an adult, and
(31:40):
and I and I've been thinkingabout how, like you know, really
our, our relationship, or wantthat to be with her, and I'm so
grateful that she, for whateverreason, has always stayed
(32:05):
connected to me and tells meeverything.
Like I was not like that withmy mother.
Once I hit puberty and I was inmy teen years, I did not share
things with my mother, but mydaughter shares everything with
me and it's, it's just reallysweet and I, I, yeah, I want to
keep those open lines ofcommunication as she continues.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful tale of
like how well you've done inthis whole journey and, yes,
there's been struggles, but youhave remained so connected
through the process as a motherlike that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, and I think you know,being a mother that has worked
through mental health stuff,that the guilt and the shame
that for me is like crushingwhen, when I'm in a dip, and I
just know that my my best as amother when I'm in a dip is
looks very, very different thanmy best when I'm feeling well,
(33:02):
and and I just like have allthis like anxiety about you know
what kinds of therapy they'regoing to need because of having
a mom that that suffers frombipolar disorder.
And, um, and I actually justshared with them the older one
knew, but the younger two I justtold them about my diagnosis a
couple months ago and, um, I waslike you know how sometimes mom
(33:25):
seems like she's really sad.
You know, this is what I, thisis what I ago, and I was like
you know how sometimes mom seemslike she's really sad.
You know, this is what I, thisis what I have, and and I think
it was good just to give themlike a framework or a context so
that they're not internalizingit as something that they're
doing.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That open communication again.
Yeah, my, my oldest is going tobe 16 here soon and he tells me
everything.
So, like I, my favorite momentsis when he he can just like
crawl in bed and he'll just sithere and just talk for hours of
like all the things and telljokes and crack you know all the
(34:02):
funny things and just also tellthe intimate stories of what's
happening in school, and he'svery easygoing.
And then I have my threedaughters and my oldest daughter
is 11 and things are not aseasy.
Like there's a lot of emotion,right, she's about to enter into
, you know, monarchy and likethat whole space and uh, I'm
(34:27):
very excited for for that andbeing there for her.
But I also recognize likethere's, I feel, like all the
different things, like I haven'tbeen through this with a girl
before and this way this is myfirst daughter and so, um, yeah,
I'm, I'm just trying to tryingto navigate all of that as a as
(34:47):
a mother, that not having thatas as a woman myself, like I was
not that person who had thatrelationship with my mom.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Right, yeah, and I think that's part of the work of
matrescence and this was, um.
What I brought forth in myprenatal group yesterday is this
that happens during pregnancy,but it's an ongoing process of
like psychological nesting.
When you're pregnant, whereyou're we?
We always hear about thephysical nesting that happens at
the end of pregnancy, but Ifeel like second trimester, when
(35:20):
you're more comfortable it'susually the most comfortable
time of the pregnancy there's akind of psychological nesting
where you're thinking about yourrelationship with your own
mother and what you want to takefrom that and what you want to
leave behind and what new thingsyou want to bring in into your
own identity as a mother.
And and that's really, like youknow, an ongoing work.
(35:43):
And I think one of the one ofthe things that we're all things
that came out kind of as atheme in the group yesterday is
how most of us were not raisedwith knowledge of emotional
intelligence and what that lookslike and how to hold space for
the so-called negative emotionsfear, anger, jealousy,
disappointment and for me it waslike I was a very sensitive
(36:09):
baby and child and I was madefun of for that and I was.
You know, there was thissuppression of those kind of the
anything that was not likepeace and love and happiness and
so, and I think that that is,you know, just culturally,
something that has gone on foryears, where toddlers and young
(36:30):
children are kind of notsupposed to have meltdowns or
not supposed to have these bigfeelings that they have, that
(36:51):
are here now, are really tryingto pivot from that and be able
to teach their children how todownregulate and that what
you're feeling is okay and it'svalid and let's see how we can
move through this.
But yeah, I think part of thework of matrescence is like
breaking the lineage for thingsthat are negative, that we don't
want to bring into our ownchildren and our relationship
(37:13):
with our children.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I love that that you had just mentioned that, because
that was actually aconversation that I had with my
mom right before Mother's Day.
Right before Mother's Day, andshe has a lot of guilt about how
she's raised us and she talksabout it openly, about the
things that have happened in mychildhood that she regrets or
feels guilty and she asks allthe time how did that affect you
, how did that change you?
(37:37):
And I was having a conversationwith her the other day and I
was like you know, mom, you knowshe's asking the questions
again and I was like, look, yourgeneration and the generation
before, like what happened withyour mom, and like that was not
a generation that was given anysort of coping skills, like you
were not taught how to do that.
And we're the first generation.
(37:58):
Really I feel like to say waita second, like what are my
coping skills?
To start normalizing thingslike therapy and counseling and
nervous system regulation, likethose were not terms that were
used and and things that wereacceptable in the generations
before.
And and that's how we're.
A lot of us are breaking thesegenerational traumas and and
(38:21):
things and you know how do wedeal with disappointment and
fear and shame and and all ofthose things.
And you know how do we dealwith disappointment and fear and
shame and all of those things.
And you know, and she there waslike such a sigh of relief when
I had said that to her and shewas like, yeah, yeah, I was
never taught that, I had no idea, my mom didn't know any of that
(38:42):
, and it was just like, wow,like you can hear the release
from her.
And so I think, like the workthat we're doing now is not just
for our children.
You know our, our births andour journeys as mothers and the
ups and downs and everything inbetween.
We're also healing thegenerations before us and
(39:05):
they're witnessing of us,generations before us.
Yeah, and they're witnessing ofus and having these open
conversations.
It's a beautiful thing, wow.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I love that.
I've never thought of it likethat, thank you, yeah, I'm
curious what you do to balance,because you're a mom of four and
you're an entrepreneur, justlike myself and like so many of
the the moms that I serve, and Ialways like to ask about you
know, what you do to replenishyourself and how you kind of
(39:35):
juggle the two things, all thedifferent things yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
First off, I don't do it alone.
Like I think that's andforemost.
I have a husband who shows up110%, not 80%, not a hundred
percent.
Like he rearranges his workschedule to handle school
pickups and drop-offs and sportsand running errands to the
(40:05):
store and grocery shopping.
Like he handles a lot, he alsocooks a lot.
So I feel like I have a lot ofphysical and emotional support
from my husband when it comes toall things home related, you
know.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Which is a huge blessing.
You know, we've been marriedalmost 11 years and I thought
that was not possible.
I was a single mom for a reallylong time and I had sworn off
men.
I was like I cannot do thisanymore.
But I tell you they exist.
If anybody is in that space,you know, an amazing man is out
(40:45):
there and available.
Uh, and I and I, I have one um,I'm very, very grateful for him
.
And then I all have otherpeople in my life too.
I have an executive assistantin my in my business.
I have somebody else who doespodcast editing, I have a team,
I have several other people onmy team that helps me with my
business and and all of that.
So I think those, think thoseare set up.
(41:07):
And I also you know youmentioned and I was talking
about in my podcast too you knowthe ups and downs of bipolar.
Like you have these moments ofhigh where you feel like you
have all the energy and you cando all the things, and that
might last for some time.
And then you have these lows,and I also feel that in just
like the cyclical rhythm of thefemale body, and it's not
(41:31):
necessarily a low, I wouldn'tcall it like manic or depressive
or anything like that.
But there are times in ourcycle where we are more apt to
get more things done and feelenergized and ready to go, and
then there are times where it'slike I just don't have the
energy right now or this is notwhat.
This is not going to bring mejoy.
(41:52):
I just don't feel like this issomething for me right now, even
though I set it up a coupleweeks ago.
Like I now I want to say no,you know, and honoring a lot of
that in my life and recognizingmy cyclical rhythms as a female,
as a woman and my cycles andhow much they dictate my energy
(42:13):
in the best of ways, like thisis not.
I'm not talking about imbalance, I'm not talking about mental
health here, but I think reallyhonoring that and stepping into
that space.
I was having a conversation withsomebody not too long ago and
she was like how do you manageyour time?
Like, cause, you have so much.
(42:33):
I have 40 acres in Alaska ontop of it, so we're homesteading
and four kids and my daughter'sa competitive gymnast, my other
is a rodeo gal who does barrelracing and so it's all summer
long.
As horses I mean hours andhours a day, like how do we, how
do we do all of that?
And and I was like you knowwhat, if you just think of your
(42:58):
you're a queen, you're, you're aqueen, you're a damn queen you
show up in your life as a queen,you treat yourself like a queen
and you say yes to the thingsthat you know that belong in
your queendom and you say no tothe things that don't.
And I think when we honorourselves in that way even
though it sounds funny, like Isay it and I'm like it's kind of
(43:19):
it sounds a little silly, butat the same time it's like
there's immense relief thatcomes from that and like I am
important and I am valuable andwith it also comes a great
responsibility.
Right, a queen is not somebodywho's just like she works with
everyone right In her wholecommunity, but at the same time,
(43:40):
like there's this there'svaluing yourself and valuing
your time and valuing yourenergy and where you are in the
world.
And I think when we make that areality, then it's so much
easier to set up your system,set up your life, set up I don't
have additional things that Ihave to do for my health that
(44:02):
feel like, oh, I've got to do X,y, z or I got to add this in.
It just is that's part of mylife, right, because I've built
the systems around living ahealthy, abundant life, and that
has taken a really, really longtime.
There's a quote that I saw theother day.
It was like um I, I asked Godfor flowers and he gave me rain.
(44:27):
And it's like that's the firststep, right.
But oftentimes we look at therain and we're like, why did you
give me the rain?
Right, and it's the cleansing,it's the getting the soil ready,
and so sometimes you know thatwe can know what we want, but we
have to recognize that we haveto release and let go, and
(44:48):
that's a long, that's years ofwork.
Sometimes, you know, and beingokay with that release and the
shifts that come with it, now Iembrace them rather than fear
them.
And you know, maybe it'ssomething that has taken.
It's taken me 40 years.
I turned 40 this year, so youknow, we'll see yeah.
(45:10):
We'll see, we'll see where thatgoes, but yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
The first thing that came out of your mouth when I
asked you about you know,juggling it all, was that you
said you don't.
You don't do it alone, becauseI think that that's in my work.
I talk a lot about archetypesand the different archetypes for
motherhood.
So we have the martyr, who waslike the reigning archetype for
years and years and years,before women had any identity
outside of wife and mother.
And then, with the rise of thefirst wave of feminism, we got
(45:45):
the super mom.
And the super mom sounds, youknow, really glorious because
now she's got the freedom to,you know, have an identity
outside of a motherhood, have acareer, pursue higher education
and higher callings.
But ultimately we just addedmore to our plate because we
didn't take off the martyrdom,we didn't take off the
(46:06):
caregiving.
We're still, for the most part,the primary care providers and
now often we are the primaryfinancial providers for the
family.
And the super mom Also the, the,the super mom is expected to do
it all alone because she's a,she's a superhero and and she's
actually killing us Like that'swhy we see all the burnout and
(46:35):
the overwhelm and the depressionand anxiety is like this super
mom archetype and what I am, inmy work, trying to midwife into
being is what I call the motherfly.
And the mother fly is a motherwho is soaring, she's flying,
she's connected to her dreamsand her visions and she's
actually thriving in motherhood.
And there's three keycomponents to the mother fly.
Number one is the container.
(46:57):
I call the container, andthat's like, we're containers
for our children.
We hold space for them, wecreate a safe space where they
can be nurtured and developwithin, and so we have to create
a container for ourselves, andthat's made up of self-care and
self-compassion.
And I think the self-care oftendoesn't happen for moms because
(47:20):
the self-compassion piece ismissing and that's a whole other
thing that we could dive into.
But then there's the second keyis missing, and that's a whole
nother thing that we could diveinto.
But then there's the second keyis creativity, and creativity is
just, you know that, being intouch with our passions and our
dreams and really, ultimately,it's about our connection to the
(47:40):
divine, because when we'reconnected to the divine,
creativity just flows through us.
And then the third piece iscommunity, and that's where we
have to shift out of this, likeI have to do it alone and
recognize that you know, ittakes a village to raise a child
, but it also takes a village toraise a mother and we we really
need each other to to thrive.
(48:04):
And you know, when we think ofthe classic symbol of
transformation, you know wethink of the butterfly and the
caterpillar to the butterfly.
And what creates the safe spacefor that caterpillar to turn
into a butterfly because itactually has to literally
dissolve and turn into mush andthen reform as the butterfly
(48:25):
what makes that safe space isthe chrysalis.
And for mothers, the chrysalisis the village, it's the
community, and we can't get veryfar without that.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
I relate to this so much.
I was that super woman for areally long time I was actually.
I got pregnant with my fourthand I was not expecting a fourth
.
And I remember sitting down atthe table with my husband and I
was like I don't know how I can,I'm going to be able to do all
(49:00):
of this with another baby.
And he looked at me allchippery and he was like you can
do everything, you're superwoman.
And it it hit me in that moment.
It was like a fuse just wentoff and I stood up from the
table and I like my hands hitthe table and I was like I don't
want to be super woman.
(49:21):
I am done with Sue, like it waslike a whole thing.
And he was like what?
Like?
What's happening here?
You know, I was like I don'twant to be super woman.
This is not what I signed upfor.
I don't want to do everything.
Can I do everything?
Sure, but I'm going to.
You know, I'm like going off.
You know, having thisconversation.
He's like are you even talkingto me anymore?
(49:41):
But I was like no, I'm notgoing to do this because I'm
just going to burn out, and thenI'm going to do it again and
then I'm going to burn out andthat's why, you know, so many
women have, as you mentioned,like mental health disorders but
also autoimmune disease, andyou know I was like I can't, I
can't do that, I'm not going todo that to myself.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
And that was really a revelation for me and for him
too, and I think that was reallythe beginning of our shift in
our relationship, where he waslike okay, what do I need to do?
That's different.
And I had to communicate a lotmore to him, because it wasn't
(50:22):
always him just showing up anddoing all of the things.
It wasn't always him justshowing up and doing all of the
things.
I think that happened over timewhere it was like hey, no, this
is not where I am going to bethe martyr anymore and I need
support here, and I need supporthere and I need support here.
Is that going to be somethingyou do or is it someone we're
hiring?
Like what's the thing?
(50:43):
It wasn't a question of like oh, I really just need help, will
you help me.
It was like no, this is thethings that I'm no longer going
to be responsible for, and it'seither you or it's someone else,
cause it's not me.
And there was a lot of that backand forth and that's where we
are today and I like it's anongoing conversation.
(51:07):
It never ends Like we're alwayslike we're looking at summer.
Right now, I've got four kidsout of school, I work and he
works and it's like, okay, whatare we going to do?
How are we going to split thisso that we both get the time
that we need?
And you know it's ongoing wherewe're.
You know, scenarios are alwaysshifting and changing.
(51:30):
But yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Well, you could probably do a whole course on
how to, how to create that kindof transformation in your
partner.
I mean, that's pretty amazingthat that he, you know that you
had, he wasn't always like thatand he is now, and that, I think
, is a testament to you know,your, your queendom, and and how
you communicate and how youexpress your expectations.
(51:53):
And and I just wanted to say Iknow we have to close soon, but
those old archetypes the martyrand the super mom the thing
about them is that they'repatriarchal and they come from
you know, this idea of, like,the rugged individual which is,
which is the symbol of power inin this, in this country, um,
which is very patriarchal, it's,it's very like, uh,
(52:15):
hierarchical and um, and yeah,not relationship based, and the
motherfly is very much aboutrelationship to to self, to the
divine and to others.
And we get there throughthrough conversations like these
and we get there throughcircles and communities and I
(52:35):
I'm just so thankful for thepeople in my life that have
supported me and the communitiesthat I'm a part of, without
which I would, I would have whoknows I might not be here,
without which I would, I wouldhave who knows I might not be
here.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Likewise, I feel the exact same way.
I probably would not be herewithout the community or like
those, those small, thoseindividuals, coming at the right
time.
You know we're here for areason Both of us.
Such a beautiful conversation.
Thank you so much for your time.
Like I can't believe, it'staken years to make this happen.
(53:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yeah, it's been lovely and I'm glad that we did
it combined.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yes, so good, so good .
All right, thanks everyone.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
(53:35):
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
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