Ever wonder if what a new mom is feeling is just "mom worry" or something more like postpartum anxiety?
Maranda and Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and perinatal mental health specialist, Kathryn Lopez, break it down in this episode. We're diving into how to tell the difference between those normal "mama" worries and when it might be postpartum anxiety – think physical feelings, constant unease, and those "what if" thoughts that feel way out of control.
We're tackling those sometimes scary intrusive thoughts that pop into a new mom's head – are they normal, or something to pay closer attention to? And what about feeling down about your old life? Is that just part of becoming a mom, or could it be something more? We even chat about that surprising link between postpartum rage and anxiety. If you're a postpartum pro, you need to hear this to help the moms you work with feel understood and supported.
Check out the episode on the blog: https://postpartumu.com/podcast/how-to-differentiate-between-postpartum-anxiety-vs-normal-motherly-worries-kathryn-lopez-ep-215/
Key Time Stamps:
- 01:58: What is Normal Mother Worry? Understanding Postpartum Anxiety vs. Typical Worry
- 03:38: When Does Mother Worry Become a Problem? Recognizing Unhealthy Postpartum Stress
- 05:47: How to Differentiate Postpartum Anxiety Symptoms from Normal Maternal Concerns?
- 09:36: Understanding Intrusive Thoughts Are They Normal or a Sign of PPA?
- 12:08: The Intent Behind Intrusive Thoughts in Postpartum
- 15:50: Is It Postpartum Depression or Grief? Understanding Loss in Early Motherhood
- 16:52: The Grief of Old Life in Postpartum
- 21:00: How Does the Nervous System Impact Postpartum Anxiety? Understanding Hyperarousal
- 25:48: Connection with Postpartum Rage and Anxiety
- 29:43: The Sleep Deprivation Cycle and Postpartum Mental Health
Connect with Kathryn:
Kathryn Lopez is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and Life Coach who specializes in perinatal mental health and sex and intimacy therapy. She helps individuals and couples navigate the emotional and relational shifts of parenthood, from conception and pregnancy to birth, postpartum, and beyond. Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelong wellbeing.
Hello, hello everyone.
Today we are going to be talkingabout mother worry versus
postpartum anxiety and how tounderstand the difference, and
today we have Catherine Lopez.
(00:44):
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and a life
coach who specializes inperinatal mental health and sex
and intimacy therapy.
Hallelujah, she is helpingindividuals and couples really
navigate the emotional andrelational shifts of parenthood,
from conception and pregnancyto birth and postpartum and
(01:04):
beyond, and she is such a warmth, just brings so much warmth,
and such an integrative approachand a safe space for clients to
really explore these evolvingidentities and relationships and
self-care.
So, just to note, catherine isaccepting new clients for online
(01:25):
therapy in California andFlorida and offers life coaching
worldwide.
Welcome, I'm so glad that youare here today, because this
topic needs more depth and moreunderstanding and you were just
the person to share it.
Thank you so much, miranda.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So tell us a little bit about why worry.
I think the understanding isthat it's such a natural and
even protective part ofmotherhood.
But when?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
does it cross into something that's more concerning
?
Yes, it's really important tobe able to you know, understand
and distinguish between thesetwo, because worry, as you
mentioned, does serve abiological protective function,
right.
It has a very important purposethat we often don't think about
.
There's a reason that mama bearis such a popular term.
(02:19):
So there we have something inour minds, after becoming a mom,
called the survival biasedtowards worry, and so I like to
kind of unpack that in in sayingit's better to assume that a
stick is a snake and overreactthan to assume that a snake is a
(02:41):
stick and underreact.
Right, that might cause harmfor you and your baby, but if
you overreact, then it ensuresmore survival of the species.
So that's a little bit ofsomething that is just helpful,
I think, for moms and for myclients to understand that
propensity to.
(03:01):
You know, maybe feel morehypervigilance, right.
Maybe have more worry than theydid before, and it can also
help to normalize, feeling verydifferent than they did, you
know, mentally and physically,than before having baby.
So, in terms of distinguishingthe difference between the two,
(03:24):
I like to break it down to that.
Not all stress is bad, right.
I've heard you talk about thistoo, in your various other
podcasts.
But I you know all there'sstress that is positive stress
or even good stress.
So this is what I will refer toas like normal maternal worry
is when we have, if you think ofa graph, it's kind of like a
(03:48):
sharp spike up and then it comesdown pretty quickly.
So it's short, lasting stressresponse that lasts up to about
20 minutes and then subsides.
So this challenges our brainand body for short intervals to
respond to something that's hardto do or an external stimuli
(04:10):
right, that's very important tomaybe overreact to or just react
to.
This could be, for example,studying for a test, kind of
that stress you might feel oh, Ineed to get you know, studying
for this test.
Or if you're driving in a carand a car in front of you steps
on the brakes, you have torespond quickly.
So this is a really good andhealthy stress response and
(04:34):
actually it's good for you tohave these stress responses.
It can improve your immunesystem, it can prevent dementia,
it improves blood sugar levels.
So it's very healthy to havethese positive or good stress
responses.
Now, when it shifts intounhealthy or negative stress
(04:55):
responses is when it's more of apattern of worry or an ongoing
chronic worry bit.
So if you think of a graphagain, instead of a spike up and
then down, it's more like asquiggly line.
It just goes up and down and upand down, uh, where there's not
one identifiable threat thatyou're responding to, and then
(05:18):
you come back down to baseline,rather a constant state of worry
, and so we're not meant to bein a constant state of worry.
This is where it's not good forus anymore.
So you know, this could looklike, for example, reading the
news and then a coworker is madat you and you get not a great
text, and then you forget to paya bill and you remember it and
(05:40):
you're just under kind of thisconstant feeling of stress.
Other ways, you know.
Other things I like to point outin terms of a healthy worry
versus more of an anxietysensation is that worry tends to
reside in our minds versusanxiety affects both our body
(06:00):
and mind.
Worry is very specific aboutone thing versus anxiety is more
general and can be vague.
Worry is grounded in realityoften, while anxiety is marked
by catastrophic thinking.
Worry is also quite temporary,right?
Whereas anxiety is more longlasting.
(06:21):
Right, whereas anxiety is morelong lasting.
And then, lastly, worry doesn'timpair our function, whereas
anxiety does, and so these arepieces to make note of and to
reflect upon your experience.
And then the last thing aroundhow to distinguish between the
(06:45):
two that I do want to point outis a good way to kind of
decipher this is if you'retrying to make a decision and
you're wondering am I comingfrom a worried state that's
useful and serving me, oractually an anxious state is
pausing for a moment, gettingcurious about where's this
coming from, and then thennoticing am I trying to set a
(07:08):
healthy boundary with somethingwhich is more indicative of
worry, right, such as, maybeyou're worried to cross the
street without holding yourchild's hand, so you're gonna
hold their hand because it feelssafe to you, and then the worry
away?
Or is your decision being mademore from an avoidance
standpoint?
(07:28):
Right, that's more indicativeof anxiety driving that decision
.
So these are just some piecesto think about when trying to
decipher the difference.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
There's so much to unpack here.
I am so grateful for thisconversation because it seems
like to me, you know, anxietyseems to kind of fly under the
radardiagnosed.
Because?
Is it because of thismisunderstanding of the
(08:09):
difference between worry andactual anxiety?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a good question.
You know, they often say thatpostpartum anxiety is the little
cousin to postpartum depression.
Right, I think postpartumdepression or postpartum OCD has
gotten a lot more hype, a lotmore attention, whereas I think
it's been challenging for somepeople to differentiate.
Is this just normal maternalworry?
(08:36):
A lot of more anxioustendencies in postpartum, I find
, get incorrectly normalized,right?
It's that that dynamic betweenis something common or is it
normal?
And very often, when workingwith clients, they'll think that
certain you know, anxioustendencies and feelings that are
(08:59):
interfering with their qualityof life are just normal when
they're not.
But they are very common in ourculture and in this day and age
, when, for me, I really see itcome back to a lack of support
for new moms, right, and when itall lands on them and when they
believe and see, especiallythrough social media, that the
(09:21):
norm is do it all and be perfectat it, and if you're not,
something's wrong.
So I think there's been anincorrect kind of example put
out there and I think thatcontributes a lot to it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I'm really glad that you said this, because I talk
about, you know, the differencebetween commonality and what's
normal in our society all thetime, and I wasn't expecting to
ask you this.
But I'm really curious becausethat falls under the same line
of intrusive thoughts.
Right Over 80% of women in theUS experience gut-wrenching,
(10:00):
awful intrusive thoughts thatfeel so out of control.
What is your take on that andhow does that fit into this
conversation?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, take on on that.
And how does that fit into thisconversation?
Yes, so intrusive thoughts areone of those things that I think
is very important to unpackwhen working with your clients,
especially during postpartum, itcan be something.
So there is an element ofintrusive thoughts that are
(10:32):
normal for new moms to feelbecause of that, you know
hormones shifting drastically,often sleep deprivation,
unfortunately.
But then those neurologicalshifts right, the pruning that's
happening with the prefrontalcortex and and making space for
the bonding and attachment withbaby and that protective
function of the negativity biastowards worry.
(10:56):
There's a piece of if you haveintrusive thoughts that are
occasional and fleeting, that'snormal and that makes sense to
keep your baby safe and healthyand responding to them Right.
But it's when, when they becomemore associated and connected
(11:16):
with anxiety is when thefrequency and the distress of
them is so intense that it'sinterfering with your daily life
and sometimes even triggersintense fear or physical anxiety
symptoms like racing heart,nausea, panic I hear these
(11:39):
things come up in regards tointrusive thoughts.
This is when it's important toyou know, seek help to work on
that more.
So it's really to work on thatmore so it's really once again
turning inward and gettingcurious with if you're the new
mom or if you're a professionalworking with new moms, exploring
(12:00):
what's underneath theseintrusive thoughts.
Where are they coming from?
How intense are they?
How frequent are they?
Another piece that I rarely hearbeing talked about regarding
intrusive thoughts is around theintentionality behind them.
Right, so there's ego-syntonicintrusive thoughts, which means
(12:25):
the intrusive thoughts are inalignment with what you want to
do and in alignment with whatyou want to do and you know your
beliefs.
This is a big red flag, right?
If a new mom is talking aboutintrusive thoughts and that you
know they're kind of appealingin a in a weird way and she
doesn't understand that, that'ssomething to really you know,
(12:45):
get clear about and help her getfurther help.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Is this?
Is this still like for thoseand I've seen this fairly
frequently and I'm not trying tocall out anybody, but I see
those who have like Instagramposts where they're they develop
a whole persona around beingthis mom who experiences X, y, z
and they're they become reallyattached to it.
Is that very, very similar?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I'm not quite sure.
I haven't seen that myself, butthat sounds like something I
would definitely if that was myclient.
I'd want to explore further.
Right, like is the response tothat?
Helping them and serving them,or is it coming from this kind
of anxious place?
Is it interfering with theirquality of life?
(13:32):
It's a good, good indicator.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Usually what I've seen in that is like these moms
and I've seen so many over thelast years of you know, 15 years
plus working with moms,especially in social media and
all of the things and they havelike, well, this is what I'm
experiencing and nobody's gonnahelp me.
I'm in it all by myself.
This is what I'm experiencingand nobody's going to help me.
I'm in it all by myself.
(13:55):
No matter what you do, nomatter what you give me for free
, I will not accept, becausethis is who I am and this is how
I've built my entire identityand how I connect with other
people.
Like it's a whole thing.
And so when you said that, that, that egocentric kind of aspect
, it really made me think ofthat, and, of course, I feel
(14:15):
like that's definitely notalways the case.
Obviously, it's a very minuteum, uh, you know population but
I also believe that like we haveto be careful and watchful of
things like this.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
We do.
And it's interesting you talkabout that identity piece
because another component thatis a big part of my work with
clients and new moms is aroundthat identity shift into new
motherhood Every single time youhave a new baby of matricence
right, it's the signal it's,it's like adolescence but in a
shorter amount of time, whereyou have intense hormone,
(14:52):
physical, mental, emotional,neurological shifts that are
happening and there's kind ofmaybe if some people are
identifying with this newversion of themselves right, a
(15:17):
mother is born when a baby isborn as well, and kind of take
it and run to try to feel asense of control or mastery over
it.
Yes, yeah, it can be very nervewracking and feel like you're
kind of floating and alone andwho am I now?
And that is something thattakes time and postpartum I'd
(15:39):
say at least a year, if not two,to get to know the new you and
to grieve the old you that is nolonger here.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, let's talk about grief.
Did not expect to talk aboutthis.
You know a lot, a lot of thetimes when I was working with
moms back in the day.
There was a very subtle yetdistinct difference between I'm
experiencing postpartumdepression and I'm experiencing
(16:12):
the process of grieving,grieving my relationship with my
partner that is now different.
Grieving the fact that I am notable to enjoy the things that I
used to now because I have ababy and it's harder to go to,
you know, photography class orharder to go paint, or, you know
(16:32):
, whatever the case may begrieving.
You know your old life and whoyou felt you were before as you
made this transition intomotherhood.
Can you speak a little bitabout the difference between the
two?
Like, let's unpack this.
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yes, me too.
No, it's very important.
So grief is not only veryhealthy and important for us to
do, it is a natural process,right, of growth and change.
And you knowhood, becoming amom, whether it's the first time
(17:14):
or another time, you know,second, third time it's a new
phase of life where the phasethat you were coming out of is
done right.
With anything, there's abeginning, a middle and an end,
and it's hard for us to feelthat, right, it's hard to
experience these, the change.
(17:36):
Um.
So, but to answer your question, more, around postpartum
depression, I think I reallylook for a sense of hopelessness
.
That sense of hopelessness isoften very thick within
postpartum depression.
It's not just grief I wouldn'tsay is necessarily indicative of
(17:59):
postpartum depression, right,grief is, it can correlate and
it can lead to if it's notprocessed correctly.
But grief is important to makespace for and it takes as long
as it takes, right, and it'sincredibly common for moms to
(18:22):
grieve their old life, to grieve, oh man, on a Friday night at 9
PM, I used to be doingdifferent things than burping
the baby at home.
Right, and that's okay, right,but really coming to peace with
that being a process of being amom is, in my opinion, to be
(18:43):
expected.
You know it's more for some thanothers, and that's okay.
But it is a healthy phenomenon.
That doesn't mean that you havepostpartum depression at all.
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You the letter ucom slashmasterclass and it sounds like
hopelessness is kind of thething that we want to look for
to kind of help ourselvesdifferentiate between the two,
(19:58):
because I really do.
I see so many moms who strugglewith oh my gosh, I'm, I'm crying
a lot, I I feel frustrated, I Ifeel like I'm thinking about my
old life and it makes me wonderif, why am I being, why am I a
mom, and is this really what Iwanted?
And then they start there's andI see this too with intrusive
thoughts.
Right, all of a sudden, there'sthese thought patterns that
(20:21):
emerge and these questions thatwe were asking.
And then, all of a sudden,those additional thoughts that
we have to it.
Is this really what I wanted?
Am I even really a I wanted?
Am I, am I even really a goodmom?
Maybe I wasn't cut out for this?
Uh I, I really miss my old life.
And then you start to panic alittle bit.
Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'masking myself these questions.
(20:44):
And then you, what happens isthat nervous system starts to go
into overdrive, right.
And the same thing happens withintrusive thoughts.
You're like oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve.
I just had that thought I'm aterrible human being, how in the
world?
And then it just spirals out ofcontrol.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I think it does spiral out of control, and
partially because we're not moms.
Don't hear about these piecesthat are a part of motherhood.
Right, it's not necessarilysunshine and rainbows which is
often the picture that's painted, and if it's not sunshine and
rainbows, something's gotta bewrong.
No, I would say that elementsof intrusive thoughts and grief
(21:23):
whether it's a small amount orintense, or questioning did I
make the right decision?
This is so intense, Can I dothis?
That's all to be expected, andI see that come up more than
less.
And one thing with that I thinkit connects back into the
importance of having support,whether that's from your family
(21:44):
and the women in your family, orfriends or mother's groups.
I have found to be so helpfulto just sit with other moms who
are going through these samephases of new motherhood and
matrescence and navigating it.
You know, seemingly it feelslike you're blind navigating
through it because it hasn'tbeen normalized and talked about
(22:07):
enough, right?
So if you can surround yourselfby people who've done it before
, who are in it with you, oreven you can just help lighten
the load of all the newresponsibilities and roles that
you are doing, the better.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Hmm, isn't it interesting how I feel like from
new moms, we kind of paint thispicture of like, oh, this is
going to be such a beautifulperiod and, you know, enjoy it
while it lasts and motherhood isfabulous.
And then you get into thethroes of motherhood and you're
like, whoa, how come no one hadtold me I'm feeling all of these
things.
(22:45):
And then it's kind of like agotcha now, like, and
everybody's, everybody's like,yeah, of course.
Well, you're a mother, you canexpect to feel like crap.
You, you know, expect to feelawful.
Isn't it such an interestingshift that we have in our
society where it's like, onceyou're in it now, it's like, oh,
of course, this is just normaland how motherhood goes.
(23:05):
But before it is, it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful thing
and you're going to love it.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I know, I know it's.
I think that is a greatdisservice to people and that's
a big reason I love to be ableto have the opportunity to work
with you.
Know, expecting moms or couplesduring pregnancy or even
preconception.
Right, Thinking about familyplanning to really demystify
those ideas.
(23:32):
Right To talk about, you know,the good, bad and ugly or
different experiences that manypeople have.
Right To speak to that, becausethen it's less of a shock.
Another piece, though, thatcomes up while you were saying
that is the paradoxical natureof parenth shock.
Another piece, though, thatcomes up while you were saying
that is the paradoxical natureof parenthood right, there's so
(23:55):
often it is so beautiful andamazing and there are pieces
that are sunshine and rainbowsand simultaneously it is so hard
and so messy and so raw and wejust want to break right.
But it's that both, and almostall the time, almost all of it,
at least in my experience.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yes, yes, that is motherhood.
And also, I think, you know, ifI look back at life in general
and the things that I havethought and experienced and have
gone through, and what otherpeople have as well, Like, I
think it's a sign of maturity tobe able to hold two opposites
(24:36):
in one space.
Right, and we use that as ameans of um determining whether
or not somebody is mature and ina professional sense.
Right, Like, and I think itjust motherhood, like takes that
(24:58):
level of and that ability to,to weigh above and beyond what
we have ever been, you know,used to in the past.
So I have a quick question foryou, because I know this, it
comes up so often and you know,as providers, like we are very
well aware of how much rage isconnected to anxiety.
Can you tell us what'shappening here?
(25:19):
Why are those two so connected?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yes, so postpartum rage isn't always indicative of
anxiety, but when rage stemsfrom chronic stress,
hypervigilance and a constantsense of overwhelm, it's a good
indicator that it is connectedright.
So it's really important to kindof unpack where is this coming
(25:43):
from?
When is it triggered?
So, for example, when someoneis feeling constantly on edge
and easily triggered by smallthings, right, that's something
I I noticed comes up when I'mworking with clients who are
struggling with postpartum rage.
It's like they snap so kind of,they feel so easily right and
(26:04):
so quickly where it doesn't seemto match what's going on or a
strong need for control thatwhen they feel out of control it
leads to frustration whenthings aren't going as planned,
things right, or even racingthoughts and a difficulty to
(26:29):
calm down where it can justescalate and escalate and become
so overwhelming that you knowjust kind of your lid bursts,
right, that feeling.
And then postpartum rage alsocan.
There can be physical symptomsthe racing heart, shortness of
breath, muscle tension, right,all these pieces.
So, yeah, it's often a reactionto feeling overstimulated,
(26:53):
under supported or out ofcontrol.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.
I remember distinctly havingthis experience myself.
I remember being in the kitchenand I was listening to music
and I was actually having like areally good time.
And so I thought I was having areally good time and you know
just like life was happening,and I was cooking a great meal
and then my toddler spilt agiant cup of water that somebody
(27:22):
left on the floor next to atoddler Right, and I lost my
mind and it felt so out ofcontrol I I didn't know how to
stop myself.
And then, of course, the guiltand the shame that comes from.
You know, after going throughthat experience of rage, I think
that was a really definingmoment in my motherhood of
(27:44):
recognizing okay, it's time thatI need to do something about
this.
This is not okay when I'maffecting my entire family.
You know, and I and I know somany moms who've experienced
things that are very similar,and one thing that I recognized
through that process is that,although I felt like everything
was fine, it was because mynervous system was already so
(28:07):
heightened that I couldn't eventell that it was so heightened
because that was a normal statefor me, that that was like a
constant.
I'm operating with my nervoussystem on edge so much that I
don't even understand that thereis a level below that and more
peace and ease and and rest thatcomes after that.
(28:30):
Um, and it's interesting, likewhen we're so stressed and we
that becomes a normal in ourlife that it's hard to
understand what it means to notbe stressed, that we think we're
not stressed when really we arejust like we are on edge, right
right, and then, as new moms,the the propensity, the the
(28:56):
ability to be more on edge ormore stressed is greater.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Right, because those pieces of hyper vigil, it's that
kind of negativity bias towardsworry.
It has that biological functionthat back in the day it served
us very well, but in this dayand age we have to be very
careful that that doesn't kindof take over, right?
(29:22):
So being very mindful of youknow, while having a good day
and feeling I'm feeling normal,I'm feeling good, and then it
can just hit you right Fromseemingly nowhere, yeah, right,
it.
Also, when you were saying thatit makes me think of something
I like to provide a lot ofpsycho education around with my
(29:42):
clients is around the sleepdeprivation cycle.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yes, tell us all deprivation cycle?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yes, tell us all, because that's one thing that
you know.
Within new motherhood and theearly days with a baby, it's so
challenging with feeding baby,changing diapers, all these
pieces, with getting enoughsleep.
But when we miss, when we misssleep, we don't get adequate
sleep.
Our body increases alert orstress hormones, like adrenaline
and cortisol, to be able tocarry us through the next day
(30:14):
right, not fall asleep on thejob.
But that gives us then aheightened sense of agitation,
which then can just feel normalwhen we have day after day or
night after night withoutadequate sleep.
It's that kind of wired feelingor over caffeinated feeling
where you know you're notfeeling great but you're
managing right and you can getthrough.
(30:36):
This.
Like increased alert hormonescan cause insomnia, whether
that's a difficult time fallingasleep that next night or
staying asleep that next night,right.
So you have often a startleresponse that really clicks on
quite easily.
I say all this because it canbe a vicious cycle that can
(30:59):
repeat itself again and againand kind of unknowingly put a
lot of moms into a deeper holeof sleep deprivation and of
heightened agitation and canlead to more postpartum rage
behaviors.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Right, yes, yes, yes, thank you.
Thank you for this.
This has been such a beautifulconversation and I am so
grateful for you.
Where can people reach out andfind you?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Of course.
Yes, my website is the bestplace to find me.
It's katherinelopeztherapycom,and Catherine is spelled
K-A-T-H-R-Y-N, and I have acontact sheet on there, so
that's the best place to find meat this time.
And you know, I love workingwith individuals and couples
(31:50):
going through the postpartumperiod, whether it's
preconception, pregnancy, rightaround birth or even postpartum
Um.
So, whether it's just for a fewsessions or longer term, I
really support new moms andfamilies to talk to people
because we're social beings.
Right, we need that support.
(32:11):
We need that help.
So I hope to be a support toanyone out there who is feeling
that need.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, miranda.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
(32:42):
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
(33:03):
Thank you.
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelong wellbeing.
Hello, hello everyone.
Today we are going to be talkingabout mother worry versus
postpartum anxiety and how tounderstand the difference, and
today we have Catherine Lopez.
(00:44):
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and a life
coach who specializes inperinatal mental health and sex
and intimacy therapy.
Hallelujah, she is helpingindividuals and couples really
navigate the emotional andrelational shifts of parenthood,
from conception and pregnancyto birth and postpartum and
(01:04):
beyond, and she is such a warmth, just brings so much warmth,
and such an integrative approachand a safe space for clients to
really explore these evolvingidentities and relationships and
self-care.
So, just to note, catherine isaccepting new clients for online
(01:25):
therapy in California andFlorida and offers life coaching
worldwide.
Welcome, I'm so glad that youare here today, because this
topic needs more depth and moreunderstanding and you were just
the person to share it.
Thank you so much, miranda.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So tell us a little bit about why worry.
I think the understanding isthat it's such a natural and
even protective part ofmotherhood.
But when?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
does it cross into something that's more concerning
?
Yes, it's really important tobe able to you know, understand
and distinguish between thesetwo, because worry, as you
mentioned, does serve abiological protective function,
right.
It has a very important purposethat we often don't think about
.
There's a reason that mama bearis such a popular term.
(02:19):
So there we have something inour minds, after becoming a mom,
called the survival biasedtowards worry, and so I like to
kind of unpack that in in sayingit's better to assume that a
stick is a snake and overreactthan to assume that a snake is a
(02:41):
stick and underreact.
Right, that might cause harmfor you and your baby, but if
you overreact, then it ensuresmore survival of the species.
So that's a little bit ofsomething that is just helpful,
I think, for moms and for myclients to understand that
propensity to.
(03:01):
You know, maybe feel morehypervigilance, right.
Maybe have more worry than theydid before, and it can also
help to normalize, feeling verydifferent than they did, you
know, mentally and physically,than before having baby.
So, in terms of distinguishingthe difference between the two,
(03:24):
I like to break it down to that.
Not all stress is bad, right.
I've heard you talk about thistoo, in your various other
podcasts.
But I you know all there'sstress that is positive stress
or even good stress.
So this is what I will refer toas like normal maternal worry
is when we have, if you think ofa graph, it's kind of like a
(03:48):
sharp spike up and then it comesdown pretty quickly.
So it's short, lasting stressresponse that lasts up to about
20 minutes and then subsides.
So this challenges our brainand body for short intervals to
respond to something that's hardto do or an external stimuli
(04:10):
right, that's very important tomaybe overreact to or just react
to.
This could be, for example,studying for a test, kind of
that stress you might feel oh, Ineed to get you know, studying
for this test.
Or if you're driving in a carand a car in front of you steps
on the brakes, you have torespond quickly.
So this is a really good andhealthy stress response and
(04:34):
actually it's good for you tohave these stress responses.
It can improve your immunesystem, it can prevent dementia,
it improves blood sugar levels.
So it's very healthy to havethese positive or good stress
responses.
Now, when it shifts intounhealthy or negative stress
(04:55):
responses is when it's more of apattern of worry or an ongoing
chronic worry bit.
So if you think of a graphagain, instead of a spike up and
then down, it's more like asquiggly line.
It just goes up and down and upand down, uh, where there's not
one identifiable threat thatyou're responding to, and then
(05:18):
you come back down to baseline,rather a constant state of worry
, and so we're not meant to bein a constant state of worry.
This is where it's not good forus anymore.
So you know, this could looklike, for example, reading the
news and then a coworker is madat you and you get not a great
text, and then you forget to paya bill and you remember it and
(05:40):
you're just under kind of thisconstant feeling of stress.
Other ways, you know.
Other things I like to point outin terms of a healthy worry
versus more of an anxietysensation is that worry tends to
reside in our minds versusanxiety affects both our body
(06:00):
and mind.
Worry is very specific aboutone thing versus anxiety is more
general and can be vague.
Worry is grounded in realityoften, while anxiety is marked
by catastrophic thinking.
Worry is also quite temporary,right?
Whereas anxiety is more longlasting.
(06:21):
Right, whereas anxiety is morelong lasting.
And then, lastly, worry doesn'timpair our function, whereas
anxiety does, and so these arepieces to make note of and to
reflect upon your experience.
And then the last thing aroundhow to distinguish between the
(06:45):
two that I do want to point outis a good way to kind of
decipher this is if you'retrying to make a decision and
you're wondering am I comingfrom a worried state that's
useful and serving me, oractually an anxious state is
pausing for a moment, gettingcurious about where's this
coming from, and then thennoticing am I trying to set a
(07:08):
healthy boundary with somethingwhich is more indicative of
worry, right, such as, maybeyou're worried to cross the
street without holding yourchild's hand, so you're gonna
hold their hand because it feelssafe to you, and then the worry
away?
Or is your decision being mademore from an avoidance
standpoint?
(07:28):
Right, that's more indicativeof anxiety driving that decision
.
So these are just some piecesto think about when trying to
decipher the difference.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
There's so much to unpack here.
I am so grateful for thisconversation because it seems
like to me, you know, anxietyseems to kind of fly under the
radardiagnosed.
Because?
Is it because of thismisunderstanding of the
(08:09):
difference between worry andactual anxiety?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a good question.
You know, they often say thatpostpartum anxiety is the little
cousin to postpartum depression.
Right, I think postpartumdepression or postpartum OCD has
gotten a lot more hype, a lotmore attention, whereas I think
it's been challenging for somepeople to differentiate.
Is this just normal maternalworry?
(08:36):
A lot of more anxioustendencies in postpartum, I find
, get incorrectly normalized,right?
It's that that dynamic betweenis something common or is it
normal?
And very often, when workingwith clients, they'll think that
certain you know, anxioustendencies and feelings that are
(08:59):
interfering with their qualityof life are just normal when
they're not.
But they are very common in ourculture and in this day and age
, when, for me, I really see itcome back to a lack of support
for new moms, right, and when itall lands on them and when they
believe and see, especiallythrough social media, that the
(09:21):
norm is do it all and be perfectat it, and if you're not,
something's wrong.
So I think there's been anincorrect kind of example put
out there and I think thatcontributes a lot to it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I'm really glad that you said this, because I talk
about, you know, the differencebetween commonality and what's
normal in our society all thetime, and I wasn't expecting to
ask you this.
But I'm really curious becausethat falls under the same line
of intrusive thoughts.
Right Over 80% of women in theUS experience gut-wrenching,
(10:00):
awful intrusive thoughts thatfeel so out of control.
What is your take on that andhow does that fit into this
conversation?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, take on on that.
And how does that fit into thisconversation?
Yes, so intrusive thoughts areone of those things that I think
is very important to unpackwhen working with your clients,
especially during postpartum, itcan be something.
So there is an element ofintrusive thoughts that are
(10:32):
normal for new moms to feelbecause of that, you know
hormones shifting drastically,often sleep deprivation,
unfortunately.
But then those neurologicalshifts right, the pruning that's
happening with the prefrontalcortex and and making space for
the bonding and attachment withbaby and that protective
function of the negativity biastowards worry.
(10:56):
There's a piece of if you haveintrusive thoughts that are
occasional and fleeting, that'snormal and that makes sense to
keep your baby safe and healthyand responding to them Right.
But it's when, when they becomemore associated and connected
(11:16):
with anxiety is when thefrequency and the distress of
them is so intense that it'sinterfering with your daily life
and sometimes even triggersintense fear or physical anxiety
symptoms like racing heart,nausea, panic I hear these
(11:39):
things come up in regards tointrusive thoughts.
This is when it's important toyou know, seek help to work on
that more.
So it's really to work on thatmore so it's really once again
turning inward and gettingcurious with if you're the new
mom or if you're a professionalworking with new moms, exploring
(12:00):
what's underneath theseintrusive thoughts.
Where are they coming from?
How intense are they?
How frequent are they?
Another piece that I rarely hearbeing talked about regarding
intrusive thoughts is around theintentionality behind them.
Right, so there's ego-syntonicintrusive thoughts, which means
(12:25):
the intrusive thoughts are inalignment with what you want to
do and in alignment with whatyou want to do and you know your
beliefs.
This is a big red flag, right?
If a new mom is talking aboutintrusive thoughts and that you
know they're kind of appealingin a in a weird way and she
doesn't understand that, that'ssomething to really you know,
(12:45):
get clear about and help her getfurther help.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Is this?
Is this still like for thoseand I've seen this fairly
frequently and I'm not trying tocall out anybody, but I see
those who have like Instagramposts where they're they develop
a whole persona around beingthis mom who experiences X, y, z
and they're they become reallyattached to it.
Is that very, very similar?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I'm not quite sure.
I haven't seen that myself, butthat sounds like something I
would definitely if that was myclient.
I'd want to explore further.
Right, like is the response tothat?
Helping them and serving them,or is it coming from this kind
of anxious place?
Is it interfering with theirquality of life?
(13:32):
It's a good, good indicator.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Usually what I've seen in that is like these moms
and I've seen so many over thelast years of you know, 15 years
plus working with moms,especially in social media and
all of the things and they havelike, well, this is what I'm
experiencing and nobody's gonnahelp me.
I'm in it all by myself.
This is what I'm experiencingand nobody's going to help me.
I'm in it all by myself.
(13:55):
No matter what you do, nomatter what you give me for free
, I will not accept, becausethis is who I am and this is how
I've built my entire identityand how I connect with other
people.
Like it's a whole thing.
And so when you said that, that, that egocentric kind of aspect
, it really made me think ofthat, and, of course, I feel
(14:15):
like that's definitely notalways the case.
Obviously, it's a very minuteum, uh, you know population but
I also believe that like we haveto be careful and watchful of
things like this.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
We do.
And it's interesting you talkabout that identity piece
because another component thatis a big part of my work with
clients and new moms is aroundthat identity shift into new
motherhood Every single time youhave a new baby of matricence
right, it's the signal it's,it's like adolescence but in a
shorter amount of time, whereyou have intense hormone,
(14:52):
physical, mental, emotional,neurological shifts that are
happening and there's kind ofmaybe if some people are
identifying with this newversion of themselves right, a
(15:17):
mother is born when a baby isborn as well, and kind of take
it and run to try to feel asense of control or mastery over
it.
Yes, yeah, it can be very nervewracking and feel like you're
kind of floating and alone andwho am I now?
And that is something thattakes time and postpartum I'd
(15:39):
say at least a year, if not two,to get to know the new you and
to grieve the old you that is nolonger here.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, let's talk about grief.
Did not expect to talk aboutthis.
You know a lot, a lot of thetimes when I was working with
moms back in the day.
There was a very subtle yetdistinct difference between I'm
experiencing postpartumdepression and I'm experiencing
(16:12):
the process of grieving,grieving my relationship with my
partner that is now different.
Grieving the fact that I am notable to enjoy the things that I
used to now because I have ababy and it's harder to go to,
you know, photography class orharder to go paint, or, you know
(16:32):
, whatever the case may begrieving.
You know your old life and whoyou felt you were before as you
made this transition intomotherhood.
Can you speak a little bitabout the difference between the
two?
Like, let's unpack this.
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yes, me too.
No, it's very important.
So grief is not only veryhealthy and important for us to
do, it is a natural process,right, of growth and change.
And you knowhood, becoming amom, whether it's the first time
(17:14):
or another time, you know,second, third time it's a new
phase of life where the phasethat you were coming out of is
done right.
With anything, there's abeginning, a middle and an end,
and it's hard for us to feelthat, right, it's hard to
experience these, the change.
(17:36):
Um.
So, but to answer your question, more, around postpartum
depression, I think I reallylook for a sense of hopelessness
.
That sense of hopelessness isoften very thick within
postpartum depression.
It's not just grief I wouldn'tsay is necessarily indicative of
(17:59):
postpartum depression, right,grief is, it can correlate and
it can lead to if it's notprocessed correctly.
But grief is important to makespace for and it takes as long
as it takes, right, and it'sincredibly common for moms to
(18:22):
grieve their old life, to grieve, oh man, on a Friday night at 9
PM, I used to be doingdifferent things than burping
the baby at home.
Right, and that's okay, right,but really coming to peace with
that being a process of being amom is, in my opinion, to be
(18:43):
expected.
You know it's more for some thanothers, and that's okay.
But it is a healthy phenomenon.
That doesn't mean that you havepostpartum depression at all.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
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You the letter ucom slashmasterclass and it sounds like
hopelessness is kind of thething that we want to look for
to kind of help ourselvesdifferentiate between the two,
(19:58):
because I really do.
I see so many moms who strugglewith oh my gosh, I'm, I'm crying
a lot, I I feel frustrated, I Ifeel like I'm thinking about my
old life and it makes me wonderif, why am I being, why am I a
mom, and is this really what Iwanted?
And then they start there's andI see this too with intrusive
thoughts.
Right, all of a sudden, there'sthese thought patterns that
(20:21):
emerge and these questions thatwe were asking.
And then, all of a sudden,those additional thoughts that
we have to it.
Is this really what I wanted?
Am I even really a I wanted?
Am I, am I even really a goodmom?
Maybe I wasn't cut out for this?
Uh I, I really miss my old life.
And then you start to panic alittle bit.
Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'masking myself these questions.
(20:44):
And then you, what happens isthat nervous system starts to go
into overdrive, right.
And the same thing happens withintrusive thoughts.
You're like oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve.
I just had that thought I'm aterrible human being, how in the
world?
And then it just spirals out ofcontrol.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I think it does spiral out of control, and
partially because we're not moms.
Don't hear about these piecesthat are a part of motherhood.
Right, it's not necessarilysunshine and rainbows which is
often the picture that's painted, and if it's not sunshine and
rainbows, something's gotta bewrong.
No, I would say that elementsof intrusive thoughts and grief
(21:23):
whether it's a small amount orintense, or questioning did I
make the right decision?
This is so intense, Can I dothis?
That's all to be expected, andI see that come up more than
less.
And one thing with that I thinkit connects back into the
importance of having support,whether that's from your family
(21:44):
and the women in your family, orfriends or mother's groups.
I have found to be so helpfulto just sit with other moms who
are going through these samephases of new motherhood and
matrescence and navigating it.
You know, seemingly it feelslike you're blind navigating
through it because it hasn'tbeen normalized and talked about
(22:07):
enough, right?
So if you can surround yourselfby people who've done it before
, who are in it with you, oreven you can just help lighten
the load of all the newresponsibilities and roles that
you are doing, the better.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Hmm, isn't it interesting how I feel like from
new moms, we kind of paint thispicture of like, oh, this is
going to be such a beautifulperiod and, you know, enjoy it
while it lasts and motherhood isfabulous.
And then you get into thethroes of motherhood and you're
like, whoa, how come no one hadtold me I'm feeling all of these
things.
(22:45):
And then it's kind of like agotcha now, like, and
everybody's, everybody's like,yeah, of course.
Well, you're a mother, you canexpect to feel like crap.
You, you know, expect to feelawful.
Isn't it such an interestingshift that we have in our
society where it's like, onceyou're in it now, it's like, oh,
of course, this is just normaland how motherhood goes.
(23:05):
But before it is, it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful thing
and you're going to love it.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I know, I know it's.
I think that is a greatdisservice to people and that's
a big reason I love to be ableto have the opportunity to work
with you.
Know, expecting moms or couplesduring pregnancy or even
preconception.
Right, Thinking about familyplanning to really demystify
those ideas.
(23:32):
Right To talk about, you know,the good, bad and ugly or
different experiences that manypeople have.
Right To speak to that, becausethen it's less of a shock.
Another piece, though, thatcomes up while you were saying
that is the paradoxical natureof parenth shock.
Another piece, though, thatcomes up while you were saying
that is the paradoxical natureof parenthood right, there's so
(23:55):
often it is so beautiful andamazing and there are pieces
that are sunshine and rainbowsand simultaneously it is so hard
and so messy and so raw and wejust want to break right.
But it's that both, and almostall the time, almost all of it,
at least in my experience.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yes, yes, that is motherhood.
And also, I think, you know, ifI look back at life in general
and the things that I havethought and experienced and have
gone through, and what otherpeople have as well, Like, I
think it's a sign of maturity tobe able to hold two opposites
(24:36):
in one space.
Right, and we use that as ameans of um determining whether
or not somebody is mature and ina professional sense.
Right, Like, and I think itjust motherhood, like takes that
(24:58):
level of and that ability to,to weigh above and beyond what
we have ever been, you know,used to in the past.
So I have a quick question foryou, because I know this, it
comes up so often and you know,as providers, like we are very
well aware of how much rage isconnected to anxiety.
Can you tell us what'shappening here?
(25:19):
Why are those two so connected?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yes, so postpartum rage isn't always indicative of
anxiety, but when rage stemsfrom chronic stress,
hypervigilance and a constantsense of overwhelm, it's a good
indicator that it is connectedright.
So it's really important to kindof unpack where is this coming
(25:43):
from?
When is it triggered?
So, for example, when someoneis feeling constantly on edge
and easily triggered by smallthings, right, that's something
I I noticed comes up when I'mworking with clients who are
struggling with postpartum rage.
It's like they snap so kind of,they feel so easily right and
(26:04):
so quickly where it doesn't seemto match what's going on or a
strong need for control thatwhen they feel out of control it
leads to frustration whenthings aren't going as planned,
things right, or even racingthoughts and a difficulty to
(26:29):
calm down where it can justescalate and escalate and become
so overwhelming that you knowjust kind of your lid bursts,
right, that feeling.
And then postpartum rage alsocan.
There can be physical symptomsthe racing heart, shortness of
breath, muscle tension, right,all these pieces.
So, yeah, it's often a reactionto feeling overstimulated,
(26:53):
under supported or out ofcontrol.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.
I remember distinctly havingthis experience myself.
I remember being in the kitchenand I was listening to music
and I was actually having like areally good time.
And so I thought I was having areally good time and you know
just like life was happening,and I was cooking a great meal
and then my toddler spilt agiant cup of water that somebody
(27:22):
left on the floor next to atoddler Right, and I lost my
mind and it felt so out ofcontrol I I didn't know how to
stop myself.
And then, of course, the guiltand the shame that comes from.
You know, after going throughthat experience of rage, I think
that was a really definingmoment in my motherhood of
(27:44):
recognizing okay, it's time thatI need to do something about
this.
This is not okay when I'maffecting my entire family.
You know, and I and I know somany moms who've experienced
things that are very similar,and one thing that I recognized
through that process is that,although I felt like everything
was fine, it was because mynervous system was already so
(28:07):
heightened that I couldn't eventell that it was so heightened
because that was a normal statefor me, that that was like a
constant.
I'm operating with my nervoussystem on edge so much that I
don't even understand that thereis a level below that and more
peace and ease and and rest thatcomes after that.
(28:30):
Um, and it's interesting, likewhen we're so stressed and we
that becomes a normal in ourlife that it's hard to
understand what it means to notbe stressed, that we think we're
not stressed when really we arejust like we are on edge, right
right, and then, as new moms,the the propensity, the the
(28:56):
ability to be more on edge ormore stressed is greater.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Right, because those pieces of hyper vigil, it's that
kind of negativity bias towardsworry.
It has that biological functionthat back in the day it served
us very well, but in this dayand age we have to be very
careful that that doesn't kindof take over, right?
(29:22):
So being very mindful of youknow, while having a good day
and feeling I'm feeling normal,I'm feeling good, and then it
can just hit you right Fromseemingly nowhere, yeah, right,
it.
Also, when you were saying thatit makes me think of something
I like to provide a lot ofpsycho education around with my
(29:42):
clients is around the sleepdeprivation cycle.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yes, tell us all deprivation cycle?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yes, tell us all, because that's one thing that
you know.
Within new motherhood and theearly days with a baby, it's so
challenging with feeding baby,changing diapers, all these
pieces, with getting enoughsleep.
But when we miss, when we misssleep, we don't get adequate
sleep.
Our body increases alert orstress hormones, like adrenaline
and cortisol, to be able tocarry us through the next day
(30:14):
right, not fall asleep on thejob.
But that gives us then aheightened sense of agitation,
which then can just feel normalwhen we have day after day or
night after night withoutadequate sleep.
It's that kind of wired feelingor over caffeinated feeling
where you know you're notfeeling great but you're
managing right and you can getthrough.
(30:36):
This.
Like increased alert hormonescan cause insomnia, whether
that's a difficult time fallingasleep that next night or
staying asleep that next night,right.
So you have often a startleresponse that really clicks on
quite easily.
I say all this because it canbe a vicious cycle that can
(30:59):
repeat itself again and againand kind of unknowingly put a
lot of moms into a deeper holeof sleep deprivation and of
heightened agitation and canlead to more postpartum rage
behaviors.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Right, yes, yes, yes, thank you.
Thank you for this.
This has been such a beautifulconversation and I am so
grateful for you.
Where can people reach out andfind you?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Of course.
Yes, my website is the bestplace to find me.
It's katherinelopeztherapycom,and Catherine is spelled
K-A-T-H-R-Y-N, and I have acontact sheet on there, so
that's the best place to find meat this time.
And you know, I love workingwith individuals and couples
(31:50):
going through the postpartumperiod, whether it's
preconception, pregnancy, rightaround birth or even postpartum
Um.
So, whether it's just for a fewsessions or longer term, I
really support new moms andfamilies to talk to people
because we're social beings.
Right, we need that support.
(32:11):
We need that help.
So I hope to be a support toanyone out there who is feeling
that need.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, miranda.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
(32:42):
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
(33:03):
Thank you.
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