June 24, 2025 • 29 mins
Ever had a gut feeling that your client's postpartum depression or anxiety wasn't just about hormones? What if the real root is an unspoken birth experience, a wound that's been hiding in plain sight? This episode is a must-listen for anyone in perinatal mental health, functional health, or holistic postpartum care. Dr. Maya Weir peels back the layers of birth trauma, exploring its deep neurological effects, how it secretly shows up in the postpartum period, and why therapy alone often don't work. Transform how you support your postpartum clients, understand maternal trauma at its core, and add powerful somatic healing techniques to your toolbox.
Check out the episode on the blog HERE.
Key Time Stamps
- 1:47 Redefining birth trauma as more than just emergencies
- 3:00 Why grief is often at the heart of the trauma
- 5:38 Trauma vs. mourning: Recognizing the deep emotional layers
- 8:33 The surprising physiological & neurological signs of birth trauma
- 10:17 Common hidden symptoms of living with unresolved birth trauma
- 12:04 Misdiagnosing PPD/Anxiety when it's actually birth trauma
- 13:54: Why talk therapy often falls short for birth trauma healing
- 14:43 How somatic work helps the brain process trauma + bilateral stimulation and resourcing
- 16:41 Exploring intergenerational healing and ancestral connections
- 18:59 Why past traumas resurface intensely in postpartum
- 20:10 Healing in parenthood
- 21:27 Cultural wisdom about maternal healing and family patterns
- 25:07 Integrating family constellation work
- 26:09: A powerful somatic practice for any birth provider: 10-tap regulation.
Connect with Dr. Maya Weir
Dr. Maya Weir is a clinical psychologist specializing in birth trauma treatment and the emotional landscape of early parenthood. Her own experience of becoming a parent revealed how physically, emotionally, and psychologically intense the transition can be. She helps parents make sense of their journey, heal from birth trauma, and find more grounded, connected ways to move forward. Website | IG
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelongwell-being.
Hey, hey, everyone, welcome tothe podcast Miranda.
Here and today I have Dr MayaWeir, who is a clinical
psychologist specializing inbirth trauma treatment and the
(00:44):
emotional landscape of earlyparenthood, and her own
experience of becoming a parentrevealed just how intense and
disorienting that transition canbe physically, emotionally and
psychologically.
She also recognizes how littlespace our culture offers to
process the full impact of thoseearly parenting experiences,
(01:09):
and so today she is helping usparents make better sense of our
journey from healing birthtrauma and finding more grounded
and well-connected ways to moveforward.
Maya, thank you so much forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, thank you, Miranda.
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So we often think of birth trauma as something that
only happens in extreme cases,like emergencies, cesareans loss
, violence.
Can you talk about how traumacan show up in more subtle or
even quote quote unquote normalbirth experiences?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think
birth trauma is one of thosethings that's really
under-recognized.
So it's.
You know, even a few years agoI didn't really even hear people
talking so much about birthtrauma, which is, I think, one
of the ways that a lot ofpeople's experiences get
minimized, because what birthtrauma is can vary so much.
(02:10):
And in the work I do, what Ireally try to do is expand the
definition of what birth traumais.
So I'm not only supportingpeople with the birthing
experience itself, but sometimeswe're also looking at
conception, pregnancy, thebirthing experience and then
postpartum.
So it's very vast.
(02:30):
For example, with conception,you know if someone went through
fertility issues, that that canbe a traumatic kind of thing.
Or if there was a lot ofconflict between partners at the
time of conception, that can bepart of it.
And then during pregnancy,there's all different diagnoses
(02:52):
that can come at that time andthat can really prime the body
with a lot of fear.
So that can also translate intothe birth experience.
In the birth experience itself,what I want to say is that it's
not so much what happened, likewhat intervention, like a
C-section or this or that, but alot of the times the birthing
(03:12):
person has an idea of what thebirth will look like and then
it's very different and thegrief around that is really at
the heart of what I would callthe trauma, is really at the
heart of what I would call thetrauma and reconciling what they
wished and hoped and dreamedfor versus what happened.
(03:32):
It's usually very powerful whenwe're able to recognize that and
make space for the grief.
That's a big part of the work.
And then in postpartum and Isee postpartum as a very lengthy
, I'm not talking six weeks, I'mtalking years but there's
different things you know howthey thought they would feed
(03:53):
their child and then how itactually goes, what they thought
it would be like to be a parent.
If the birth was difficult forthem, there can be a lot of
feelings of I failed, I didn'tdo it right.
They can translate into howthey feel about being a parent
and then also with the birthtrauma piece, sometimes that can
impact bonding with the baby.
(04:15):
So there's really a lot to whatbirth trauma can be, and I
think a lot of it is about howsomeone experiences what
happened to them, versus justthe facts of what happened.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I feel like we almost need to expand the term birth
trauma to not be birth anymore,but maybe maternal trauma,
because that is more of anencompassing term and maybe
that's not even the right term.
But I feel like if we say birthtrauma, people think of trauma
that happened in the birth room.
We're not thinking about all ofthe other areas of trauma that
(04:51):
may be present.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Definitely I love that Maternal trauma, parenthood
trauma like, yes, thedifficulties of what it means to
become a parent thedifficulties of what it means to
become a parent.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Okay, so I have to go back to this idea of trauma
versus mourning or feeling as ifour experiences didn't quite go
as we had intentioned or inplanned for them to go.
Would that period of mourningor sadness or frustration be
considered trauma, or are wesometimes feeling as if those
(05:32):
things are our trauma in itself,like, can you share a little
bit more about that?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
it's interesting because I feel like most of the
people who come to me, a lot ofthe times they're not even
recognizing to themselves orknowing themselves that they
went through a birth trauma.
And you know, like I facilitatefree workshops about birth
trauma and then, oh, that seemsinteresting.
And then they'll come and belike, oh, that's me.
(05:59):
And so the reason I'm sayingthis is because I think a lot of
times the initial feelings arethose of kind of the grief or
disappointment, like people knowthat that's there.
They don't necessarily think,oh, I'm a birth trauma survivor,
so there can be bothexperiences simultaneously.
(06:20):
But what people recognize tothemselves tends to be more of
the I'm sad about this, I'mdisappointed about this.
Those are the things thatsurface in a very natural way.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Is there a difference between somebody who's maybe
have those feelings about adifficult experience versus
someone who actually has trauma?
Because trauma almost feelslike a very heavy big word and I
know a lot of women and a lotof families will actually
downplay their experiencesbecause, well, so-and-so had a
(06:57):
much harder time.
Or I know somebody else who hadgone through this and I didn't
go through that, so I should begrateful.
Or my baby's okay, so obviouslyI shouldn't feel baby's okay,
so obviously I shouldn't feel.
You know, my, my story is maybenot you know, quote unquote
traumatic, but it was stilldifficult.
(07:17):
Is there a difference betweenthe two or are they all kind of
lumped together in the way youwork with, with moms and
families?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
For me there isn't a difference, and I'll tell you
why because birth is such anepically huge experience, one of
the most life-changing, intensethere's almost nothing like it.
So what I see is that havingthe space to process it can be
so important and even forsomeone where the birth went
(07:43):
like amazing, this was great.
Oftentimes, processing it canbe really helpful.
And, of course, those are notthe people that come to me as
often right, it's more when somethings went badly.
But I see quite a range ofpeople, right, I see someone who
you know had an emergencyC-section, or someone who even
(08:05):
lost their child, which thosetwo things are obviously very
different, but making a spacefor any of the types of things I
see as tremendously importantin healing and, yeah, it's just
super, super important.
So it doesn't matter too muchto me if it's trauma, difficult,
(08:28):
whatever we want to call it.
I still think there's suchjuiciness in processing it.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, that's so true, and I feel at the same time
like when we look at what isoccurring within the brain and
the physiological aspects ofbirth and things that are maybe
deemed difficult or hard ortrauma, they all kind of show up
as the same symptoms.
(08:55):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Totally.
Totally, I mean on the bodylevel.
I think part of what we knownow so much with trauma,
research and the nervous systemis how much the nervous system
gets dysregulated by thesetrauma, bad experience, whatever
we want to call it.
And pregnancy and birth andpostpartum is such a bodily
(09:18):
experience right, it's one ofthe most intimate bodily things
that can happen.
So of course that the body isimplicated in that, and the
nervous system and the brain andour, our whole being and our
whole system in that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
What does it actually look like when somebody is
living with birth trauma?
Are there symptoms or patternsthat might be typical of these
symptoms?
And then, what might besurprising to providers or
professionals who are in thefield, or even moms themselves?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, so there's quite a few types of symptoms
that we could see.
Overall, what I would say isthat any reminders of the birth
experience will be coming out astriggers.
So let's say, you drive by thehospital where you gave birth
and then your heart startsbeating fast.
You're triggered by that or anyother reminders of the birth
(10:21):
can be really triggering.
So I think that that's oneelement of it overall, but it
can manifest in a lot of waysfeeling really anxious, feeling
really depressed.
Being very preoccupied withyour baby's health is a big one.
Sleep issues and I don't meanthe kind that are connected to
your baby not sleeping, which isjust normal, but like even if
(10:42):
the baby's sleeping, you cannotsleep wide awake that kind of
thing Difficulties bonding withthe baby or feeling connected
with your child A lot of times.
I also see relationship issuescoming up after it, especially
when the couple hasn't been ableto process what happens.
It can create some disconnector if there's anger or
(11:04):
resentment about how a partnershowed up in the birth, and then
there can also be a lot ofself-critic and inner critic,
especially the birthing person.
I failed, I didn't do thisright, I should have done this.
I could have done that.
There can be a lot of that typeof thing lingering.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's so true and I feel like oftentimes for many
providers and professionals,this is not something that we're
trained to talk about or toeven address in the least bit.
You know, if you go see your OB, they're not going to ask you
so how was that birth?
Like that just rarely everhappens, and so oftentimes one
thing that I see, and maybe yousee as well, is like maybe a lot
(11:45):
of these women are coming inwith a diagnosis of depression
or anxiety and postpartum, whenreally they have birth trauma.
Oh yeah, and that's totallydifferent, right?
Like this is not something thatwe treat the same way, it's
treated completely different.
Is that accurate, totally?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And I mean big time once I got cause.
I was not initially trained inbirth trauma, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I had a practice, nobody is right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And then now it's like if someone tells me that
postpartum depression.
First question how was thebirth?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Always, always, yeah, yeah, and it's not just like
there's so much more that wehave to use in terms of
treatment tools and support.
That is way different, and Ithink it's one of the biggest
things that we are lacking inour care for moms.
So thank you for bringing thatup.
And that brings me to anotherpoint, too is that oftentimes,
(12:45):
you know, not only do we nothave trained providers, not only
are we not talking about birthtrauma, but also traditional
talk therapy is often really notenough when it comes to healing
from birth trauma, and I'd loveto hear your take on this,
because there's so much more,including somatic healing, which
I know you do quite a bit of aswell.
(13:07):
So can you just like open upand share a lot about this topic
?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, definitely.
So I mean, that was myexperience as a provider too,
where I was trained initially asa psychodynamic relational
therapist, which I still do andI love and I love talk therapy.
So no shade about talk therapy.
But what I was noticing in mypractice so my practice is all
focused on early parenthood, Iwork exclusively with parents,
(13:33):
so that's just the bread andbutter of everything I'm in and
what I was noticing is that whenit came to birth trauma,
talking really wasn't enough.
And then, just by coincidence,I met Gina McCarthy, who
developed the model which Ipracticed, the somatic model,
and it was one of those perfecttiming things where I was like,
yes, I want to get trained inthis somatic amazing.
(13:55):
And so what I do with peoplewhen they're coming to me with
birth trauma is that they're.
We combine bilateral stimulation, which I'll explain in a second
, and somatic resourcing.
So this is very different thantraditional talk therapy.
The bilateral stimulation isbasically tapping, like doing
alternating taps, and thesomatic resourcing is that we
(14:18):
visualize different figures.
So the figures that wevisualize for this treatment are
the protector figure, thesupport figure and the
compassion figure, and thereason these are so important in
birth trauma is usually theperson needed more protection
than they got, more support thanthey got.
And for the inner critic pieceswe were talking about earlier,
(14:39):
where there's a lot ofself-judgment, the compassion
figure really helps.
So basically, when they'recoming to me they're going to be
tapping the whole time.
They tell the story and we do alot of check-ins about what's
going on with sensation in thebody and so the tapping really
helps on a lot of differentlevels.
It helps with the brainprocessing, so we get to process
(15:03):
at this deeper bodily levelprocessing, so we get to process
at this deeper bodily level.
And it's kind of cool, likewhen I do the thing, when I'm
doing this with people, it'salmost a little bit like a kind
of trance state where people canbypass some of their defenses
that they would have if theywere just talking and get into
the deeper level of things.
Because oftentimes, like whenthere's a feeling that they're
(15:25):
describing describing either abodily sensation or feeling like
, you know, sad or disappointedor alone these feelings predate
the birth trauma.
They're actually about a traumathat happened earlier in life
and so when we heal up that,then it heals up the birth
trauma part two, because who weare in birth is a mirror of what
(15:47):
we actually brought in beforethat in terms of who we are.
So there's this reallybeautiful parallel that can
happen with the tapping in termsof healing other traumas as
well.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Even intergenerationally.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sometimes we go back to the birth of ancestors.
It's not only about whathappened, know what happened
here, or early childhoodexperiences or stuff like that.
So, yeah, the tapping and theresourcing really works at this
beautiful body, brain level.
And the most amazing thing isthat when people initially come
(16:20):
to me, they're very activatedand triggered by the experience
and by the time they leavethey're not.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I think it's so profound, like such a beautiful
thing, that you are doing andhelping these moms and and all
of this, and you said so manythings that I'm like, wait a
second, we got to stop, we gotto go back.
You talked about tapping.
You talked about these, zach,you talked about tapping, you
talked about these role-playingand things like that.
I'm also curious about EMDR.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, so the person who developed this model.
It's very similar to EMDR, butEMDR, I think, would be using
eye movements as the bilateralstimulation, where I'm using
tapping as the bilateralstimulation.
So they're similar and I'm nottrained in EMDR so I can't speak
about it in an expert kind ofway.
But I do think what I'mdescribing is very similar to
(17:12):
EMDR and can have very similartypes of benefits.
I think another difference thatI know from a colleague is that
with EMDR the therapist wouldstart with the symptoms and what
with what I do?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I just go through the story, so we start with
conception or pregnancy and wework all the way through
postpartum the whole story itsounds like you're actually
working with the neurologicalchanges that are occurring in
the brain, like you areliterally rewiring at the brain
level the birth story Is thataccurate?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
That is accurate and the really cool thing is at the
brain level usually went withthe trauma.
Things get put into theimplicit memory.
So that's why they're comingout as these random little weird
triggers, and then what we'redoing through this process is
we're moving it to explicitmemory, which is where there's a
meaningful, coherent story thatsomeone can tell, and so that's
(18:11):
kind of how we maybe trackwhat's happening in the brain
through that process.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
You said something that just blew my mind and so I
was like throwing these littlequestions at you.
But I was saving the biggestfor last here, these little
questions at you, but I wassaving the biggest for last year
.
I noticed this quite frequentlyover the last 15 years of
working with moms, and not in aclinical sense in the least bit.
I mean stories of women whocome to me and said I'm
(18:37):
postpartum, I'm in the first sixmonths or the first few years,
and all of a sudden I'mremembering what my dad did,
what my uncle did, that timethat I went to that party when I
was 14.
And I snuck out of the houseand this thing happened and
these very traumatic events thecar accident, the house fire,
(19:01):
like all of these things thathappen and all of a sudden
become very focal or a focalpoint for a lot of postpartum
moms.
What is happening here?
Why are we remembering and notjust remembering but almost
remembering intensely thetraumas that we've experienced
(19:26):
before even having kids?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Ooh, I love this question.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And this is why I love working with parents in
early in the early parenthoodphase.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
This is so juicy.
So in the early parenthoodphase, once the baby is born and
in the first few yearspostpartum, all of the parents'
attachment issues are coming upbecause they're providing
attachment to their baby, and sothis is such a juicy time in
terms of what kind of healingcan happen.
Oftentimes the healing is nothappening because in this
(19:56):
culture, early parenthood is sounder supported, which is very
sad, um, but unconsciously,whatever age your child is at
will bring up what was happeningto you at that age, and so that
is why so many new memories,new experiences will come up.
And that's why I love doingthis work at this time period,
(20:20):
because I just feel like it'ssuch a potent time to work on
people's relational blueprintswhich are usually at the base of
their traumas, and so when wedo that, we can heal so, so
profoundly, and the beauty of ittoo is that it translates into
their relationship with theirchild, which can really help
future generations.
So there's this beautifulripple effect and beauty in why
(20:42):
those traumas get resurfaced atthat time.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I got goosebumps because I remember hearing about
so many cultures.
I did a lot of studies of othercultures around the world,
especially in relationship tobirth and postpartum, and one
thing that was clear is thatthis was a regular thing that
happened, like if you experiencesomething in your childhood
which almost all of us have atsome level, especially our
(21:06):
generation, then something isgoing to come up and you're
going to remember that traumaand it's not going to
necessarily feel good, but thereason why it comes up is
because you're being.
You're given an invitation toheal.
This is an invitation to healbecause women it is believed in
many of these cultures becauseof your connection, you're able
(21:47):
to heal your body deeper thananyone else would ever be, and
that's the gift of being amother.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yes, and you know, children are divinely tapped
into that knowledge or thatwisdom, right Like they are
closer to the source, becausethey're closer to you know the
beginning.
And so sometimes children willjust say the most amazing stuff
that brings the parents into aninvitation towards healing,
sometimes not in an easy wayeither.
(22:16):
And yeah, so there is thisreally beautiful invitation to
heal, and I think part of thattoo is in the after giving.
Well, giving birth splits uswide open to heal and I think
part of that too is in the aftergiving.
Well, giving birth splits uswide open to healing.
It can, and then afterwards, ifthere's nursing and sleep
deprivation, those things canreally like break down some of
(22:37):
our defenses in ways that aredifficult, but also in ways that
can also in a way promotehealing, because there isn't as
much of this like being in theintellect strong defendedness if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
there can be more of a softness to actually get into
things yeah, and I thinkoftentimes and I can speak for
myself, like I wore so manymasks of who I thought I was and
and what it meant to be a womanand what it meant to be a
mother and what it meant to be awife and you know all of these
things and when you havechildren, they really help you
(23:15):
process, like, what does itactually mean?
And is this really the truth?
And I think one of the mostbeautiful stories is, just, like
you know, we see this often forwomen who are, like you know,
maybe they're a little bit moreshy, and they go into their
labor experience and then all ofa sudden, they're like
stripping naked at, like youknow, because they're eight
(23:36):
centimeters or whatever, andthey're like, I don't even care
anymore, like you know, thisdoesn't matter to me, that it's,
it's off, right, and of course,that's a different part of your
brain and, and maybe a terribleexample, but I find it
oftentimes this is what occursin motherhood as well, where our
children just help us.
You know, they deliver a newstory, one that's closer to the
truth, that allows us to likeshed a lot of these stories that
(24:00):
have been playing out,sometimes generationally,
sometimes stories that don'teven belong to us.
Maybe they belong to our mother, maybe they belong to the way
in which we were birthed intothe world and that we didn't
even heal from Like.
There's so many differentlayers, which is so nice to have
the support person someone likeyourself to like help through
all of these different layers ofbeing, which I think is
(24:23):
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes, no, totally.
I mean I think we get thechildren we need to grow in the
way we need.
Like, my son is my biggestteacher.
I mean I can go on and on aboutthat.
He's just like he was meant tobe here to teach me so, so many
different things.
And I think sometimes also inthe work like what you're saying
, that we can do thisgenerational healing.
(24:45):
There's these ideas also in thework, like what you're saying,
that we can do this generationalhealing.
There's these ideas from familyconstellation work, which I
also integrate, love that work.
Yes, we can say thank you to youknow, thank you to my parent
for this, and I'm giving backwhat belongs to you.
Like, I make it specific to theperson, but, you know, I'm
giving you back the anxiety thatI don't need.
I'm giving you back the anxietythat I don't need.
(25:06):
I'm giving you back youranxiety about this.
Or I'm cutting the cord with,like you know, if there were
many generations of people whohad C-section but then some
woman wants to have a vaginalbirth, what does it mean to?
You know, I appreciate you,thank you to the previous
generations, but I'm cutting thecord because I'm ready to have
this different experience.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
As we wrap up today, what is one practice that you
wish every birth provider ortherapist or person of expertise
who's working with moms andfamilies, what do you wish they
had in their toolbox to helpclients who maybe had a really
difficult or traumatic birthexperience?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah, well, I think that the easiest one to explain
through a recording like this isthat I talked about ongoing
tapping earlier, but alsotapping just 10 times can have a
very regulating effect, like acalming effect, and that's
something I tell clients to doin between sessions when they're
(26:10):
feeling triggered by somethingis to imagine one of their
resources and tap only 10 times,and that's very simple but can
be very profound.
You know, think of a support,something that feels supportive,
like a supportive figure.
It could be a tree, a person,animal, spiritual figure,
whatever feels supportive to you, and then tap 10 times.
(26:33):
The same thing could be donewith a compassion figure, a
protector figure, and just thatsmall practice in the day-to-day
can really help offset some ofthe triggering that might come
as a result of a birth traumaexperience.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
This is beautiful.
Thank you so much for all ofyour wisdom and for sharing this
amazing work that you're doing.
Where can people learn moreabout you and find your work?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, so I have a website and if you go on the
website, you could sign up formy newsletter.
I send out birth trauma healingresources every month all
different types of stuff, so mywebsite is thrivingcacom.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Wonderful and of course, we're going to have that
link for you here as well.
So take a look at that in theshow notes and thank you so much
from the bottom of my heart forbeing here.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yes, thank you so much, miranda, bottom of my
heart for being here.
I appreciate you.
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Miranda, it was a blast.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
(27:52):
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelongwell-being.
Hey, hey, everyone, welcome tothe podcast Miranda.
Here and today I have Dr MayaWeir, who is a clinical
psychologist specializing inbirth trauma treatment and the
(00:44):
emotional landscape of earlyparenthood, and her own
experience of becoming a parentrevealed just how intense and
disorienting that transition canbe physically, emotionally and
psychologically.
She also recognizes how littlespace our culture offers to
process the full impact of thoseearly parenting experiences,
(01:09):
and so today she is helping usparents make better sense of our
journey from healing birthtrauma and finding more grounded
and well-connected ways to moveforward.
Maya, thank you so much forbeing here.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, thank you, Miranda.
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So we often think of birth trauma as something that
only happens in extreme cases,like emergencies, cesareans loss
, violence.
Can you talk about how traumacan show up in more subtle or
even quote quote unquote normalbirth experiences?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think
birth trauma is one of thosethings that's really
under-recognized.
So it's.
You know, even a few years agoI didn't really even hear people
talking so much about birthtrauma, which is, I think, one
of the ways that a lot ofpeople's experiences get
minimized, because what birthtrauma is can vary so much.
(02:10):
And in the work I do, what Ireally try to do is expand the
definition of what birth traumais.
So I'm not only supportingpeople with the birthing
experience itself, but sometimeswe're also looking at
conception, pregnancy, thebirthing experience and then
postpartum.
So it's very vast.
(02:30):
For example, with conception,you know if someone went through
fertility issues, that that canbe a traumatic kind of thing.
Or if there was a lot ofconflict between partners at the
time of conception, that can bepart of it.
And then during pregnancy,there's all different diagnoses
(02:52):
that can come at that time andthat can really prime the body
with a lot of fear.
So that can also translate intothe birth experience.
In the birth experience itself,what I want to say is that it's
not so much what happened, likewhat intervention, like a
C-section or this or that, but alot of the times the birthing
(03:12):
person has an idea of what thebirth will look like and then
it's very different and thegrief around that is really at
the heart of what I would callthe trauma, is really at the
heart of what I would call thetrauma and reconciling what they
wished and hoped and dreamedfor versus what happened.
(03:32):
It's usually very powerful whenwe're able to recognize that and
make space for the grief.
That's a big part of the work.
And then in postpartum and Isee postpartum as a very lengthy
, I'm not talking six weeks, I'mtalking years but there's
different things you know howthey thought they would feed
(03:53):
their child and then how itactually goes, what they thought
it would be like to be a parent.
If the birth was difficult forthem, there can be a lot of
feelings of I failed, I didn'tdo it right.
They can translate into howthey feel about being a parent
and then also with the birthtrauma piece, sometimes that can
impact bonding with the baby.
(04:15):
So there's really a lot to whatbirth trauma can be, and I
think a lot of it is about howsomeone experiences what
happened to them, versus justthe facts of what happened.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I feel like we almost need to expand the term birth
trauma to not be birth anymore,but maybe maternal trauma,
because that is more of anencompassing term and maybe
that's not even the right term.
But I feel like if we say birthtrauma, people think of trauma
that happened in the birth room.
We're not thinking about all ofthe other areas of trauma that
(04:51):
may be present.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Definitely I love that Maternal trauma, parenthood
trauma like, yes, thedifficulties of what it means to
become a parent thedifficulties of what it means to
become a parent.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Okay, so I have to go back to this idea of trauma
versus mourning or feeling as ifour experiences didn't quite go
as we had intentioned or inplanned for them to go.
Would that period of mourningor sadness or frustration be
considered trauma, or are wesometimes feeling as if those
(05:32):
things are our trauma in itself,like, can you share a little
bit more about that?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
it's interesting because I feel like most of the
people who come to me, a lot ofthe times they're not even
recognizing to themselves orknowing themselves that they
went through a birth trauma.
And you know, like I facilitatefree workshops about birth
trauma and then, oh, that seemsinteresting.
And then they'll come and belike, oh, that's me.
(05:59):
And so the reason I'm sayingthis is because I think a lot of
times the initial feelings arethose of kind of the grief or
disappointment, like people knowthat that's there.
They don't necessarily think,oh, I'm a birth trauma survivor,
so there can be bothexperiences simultaneously.
(06:20):
But what people recognize tothemselves tends to be more of
the I'm sad about this, I'mdisappointed about this.
Those are the things thatsurface in a very natural way.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Is there a difference between somebody who's maybe
have those feelings about adifficult experience versus
someone who actually has trauma?
Because trauma almost feelslike a very heavy big word and I
know a lot of women and a lotof families will actually
downplay their experiencesbecause, well, so-and-so had a
(06:57):
much harder time.
Or I know somebody else who hadgone through this and I didn't
go through that, so I should begrateful.
Or my baby's okay, so obviouslyI shouldn't feel baby's okay,
so obviously I shouldn't feel.
You know, my, my story is maybenot you know, quote unquote
traumatic, but it was stilldifficult.
(07:17):
Is there a difference betweenthe two or are they all kind of
lumped together in the way youwork with, with moms and
families?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
For me there isn't a difference, and I'll tell you
why because birth is such anepically huge experience, one of
the most life-changing, intensethere's almost nothing like it.
So what I see is that havingthe space to process it can be
so important and even forsomeone where the birth went
(07:43):
like amazing, this was great.
Oftentimes, processing it canbe really helpful.
And, of course, those are notthe people that come to me as
often right, it's more when somethings went badly.
But I see quite a range ofpeople, right, I see someone who
you know had an emergencyC-section, or someone who even
(08:05):
lost their child, which thosetwo things are obviously very
different, but making a spacefor any of the types of things I
see as tremendously importantin healing and, yeah, it's just
super, super important.
So it doesn't matter too muchto me if it's trauma, difficult,
(08:28):
whatever we want to call it.
I still think there's suchjuiciness in processing it.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, that's so true, and I feel at the same time
like when we look at what isoccurring within the brain and
the physiological aspects ofbirth and things that are maybe
deemed difficult or hard ortrauma, they all kind of show up
as the same symptoms.
(08:55):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Totally.
Totally, I mean on the bodylevel.
I think part of what we knownow so much with trauma,
research and the nervous systemis how much the nervous system
gets dysregulated by thesetrauma, bad experience, whatever
we want to call it.
And pregnancy and birth andpostpartum is such a bodily
(09:18):
experience right, it's one ofthe most intimate bodily things
that can happen.
So of course that the body isimplicated in that, and the
nervous system and the brain andour, our whole being and our
whole system in that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
What does it actually look like when somebody is
living with birth trauma?
Are there symptoms or patternsthat might be typical of these
symptoms?
And then, what might besurprising to providers or
professionals who are in thefield, or even moms themselves?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, so there's quite a few types of symptoms
that we could see.
Overall, what I would say isthat any reminders of the birth
experience will be coming out astriggers.
So let's say, you drive by thehospital where you gave birth
and then your heart startsbeating fast.
You're triggered by that or anyother reminders of the birth
(10:21):
can be really triggering.
So I think that that's oneelement of it overall, but it
can manifest in a lot of waysfeeling really anxious, feeling
really depressed.
Being very preoccupied withyour baby's health is a big one.
Sleep issues and I don't meanthe kind that are connected to
your baby not sleeping, which isjust normal, but like even if
(10:42):
the baby's sleeping, you cannotsleep wide awake that kind of
thing Difficulties bonding withthe baby or feeling connected
with your child A lot of times.
I also see relationship issuescoming up after it, especially
when the couple hasn't been ableto process what happens.
It can create some disconnector if there's anger or
(11:04):
resentment about how a partnershowed up in the birth, and then
there can also be a lot ofself-critic and inner critic,
especially the birthing person.
I failed, I didn't do thisright, I should have done this.
I could have done that.
There can be a lot of that typeof thing lingering.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's so true and I feel like oftentimes for many
providers and professionals,this is not something that we're
trained to talk about or toeven address in the least bit.
You know, if you go see your OB, they're not going to ask you
so how was that birth?
Like that just rarely everhappens, and so oftentimes one
thing that I see, and maybe yousee as well, is like maybe a lot
(11:45):
of these women are coming inwith a diagnosis of depression
or anxiety and postpartum, whenreally they have birth trauma.
Oh yeah, and that's totallydifferent, right?
Like this is not something thatwe treat the same way, it's
treated completely different.
Is that accurate, totally?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And I mean big time once I got cause.
I was not initially trained inbirth trauma, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I had a practice, nobody is right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And then now it's like if someone tells me that
postpartum depression.
First question how was thebirth?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Always, always, yeah, yeah, and it's not just like
there's so much more that wehave to use in terms of
treatment tools and support.
That is way different, and Ithink it's one of the biggest
things that we are lacking inour care for moms.
So thank you for bringing thatup.
And that brings me to anotherpoint, too is that oftentimes,
(12:45):
you know, not only do we nothave trained providers, not only
are we not talking about birthtrauma, but also traditional
talk therapy is often really notenough when it comes to healing
from birth trauma, and I'd loveto hear your take on this,
because there's so much more,including somatic healing, which
I know you do quite a bit of aswell.
(13:07):
So can you just like open upand share a lot about this topic
?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, definitely.
So I mean, that was myexperience as a provider too,
where I was trained initially asa psychodynamic relational
therapist, which I still do andI love and I love talk therapy.
So no shade about talk therapy.
But what I was noticing in mypractice so my practice is all
focused on early parenthood, Iwork exclusively with parents,
(13:33):
so that's just the bread andbutter of everything I'm in and
what I was noticing is that whenit came to birth trauma,
talking really wasn't enough.
And then, just by coincidence,I met Gina McCarthy, who
developed the model which Ipracticed, the somatic model,
and it was one of those perfecttiming things where I was like,
yes, I want to get trained inthis somatic amazing.
(13:55):
And so what I do with peoplewhen they're coming to me with
birth trauma is that they're.
We combine bilateral stimulation, which I'll explain in a second
, and somatic resourcing.
So this is very different thantraditional talk therapy.
The bilateral stimulation isbasically tapping, like doing
alternating taps, and thesomatic resourcing is that we
(14:18):
visualize different figures.
So the figures that wevisualize for this treatment are
the protector figure, thesupport figure and the
compassion figure, and thereason these are so important in
birth trauma is usually theperson needed more protection
than they got, more support thanthey got.
And for the inner critic pieceswe were talking about earlier,
(14:39):
where there's a lot ofself-judgment, the compassion
figure really helps.
So basically, when they'recoming to me they're going to be
tapping the whole time.
They tell the story and we do alot of check-ins about what's
going on with sensation in thebody and so the tapping really
helps on a lot of differentlevels.
It helps with the brainprocessing, so we get to process
(15:03):
at this deeper bodily levelprocessing, so we get to process
at this deeper bodily level.
And it's kind of cool, likewhen I do the thing, when I'm
doing this with people, it'salmost a little bit like a kind
of trance state where people canbypass some of their defenses
that they would have if theywere just talking and get into
the deeper level of things.
Because oftentimes, like whenthere's a feeling that they're
(15:25):
describing describing either abodily sensation or feeling like
, you know, sad or disappointedor alone these feelings predate
the birth trauma.
They're actually about a traumathat happened earlier in life
and so when we heal up that,then it heals up the birth
trauma part two, because who weare in birth is a mirror of what
(15:47):
we actually brought in beforethat in terms of who we are.
So there's this reallybeautiful parallel that can
happen with the tapping in termsof healing other traumas as
well.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Even intergenerationally.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sometimes we go back to the birth of ancestors.
It's not only about whathappened, know what happened
here, or early childhoodexperiences or stuff like that.
So, yeah, the tapping and theresourcing really works at this
beautiful body, brain level.
And the most amazing thing isthat when people initially come
(16:20):
to me, they're very activatedand triggered by the experience
and by the time they leavethey're not.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I think it's so profound, like such a beautiful
thing, that you are doing andhelping these moms and and all
of this, and you said so manythings that I'm like, wait a
second, we got to stop, we gotto go back.
You talked about tapping.
You talked about these, zach,you talked about tapping, you
talked about these role-playingand things like that.
I'm also curious about EMDR.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, so the person who developed this model.
It's very similar to EMDR, butEMDR, I think, would be using
eye movements as the bilateralstimulation, where I'm using
tapping as the bilateralstimulation.
So they're similar and I'm nottrained in EMDR so I can't speak
about it in an expert kind ofway.
But I do think what I'mdescribing is very similar to
(17:12):
EMDR and can have very similartypes of benefits.
I think another difference thatI know from a colleague is that
with EMDR the therapist wouldstart with the symptoms and what
with what I do?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I just go through the story, so we start with
conception or pregnancy and wework all the way through
postpartum the whole story itsounds like you're actually
working with the neurologicalchanges that are occurring in
the brain, like you areliterally rewiring at the brain
level the birth story Is thataccurate?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
That is accurate and the really cool thing is at the
brain level usually went withthe trauma.
Things get put into theimplicit memory.
So that's why they're comingout as these random little weird
triggers, and then what we'redoing through this process is
we're moving it to explicitmemory, which is where there's a
meaningful, coherent story thatsomeone can tell, and so that's
(18:11):
kind of how we maybe trackwhat's happening in the brain
through that process.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
You said something that just blew my mind and so I
was like throwing these littlequestions at you.
But I was saving the biggestfor last here, these little
questions at you, but I wassaving the biggest for last year
.
I noticed this quite frequentlyover the last 15 years of
working with moms, and not in aclinical sense in the least bit.
I mean stories of women whocome to me and said I'm
(18:37):
postpartum, I'm in the first sixmonths or the first few years,
and all of a sudden I'mremembering what my dad did,
what my uncle did, that timethat I went to that party when I
was 14.
And I snuck out of the houseand this thing happened and
these very traumatic events thecar accident, the house fire,
(19:01):
like all of these things thathappen and all of a sudden
become very focal or a focalpoint for a lot of postpartum
moms.
What is happening here?
Why are we remembering and notjust remembering but almost
remembering intensely thetraumas that we've experienced
(19:26):
before even having kids?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Ooh, I love this question.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And this is why I love working with parents in
early in the early parenthoodphase.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
This is so juicy.
So in the early parenthoodphase, once the baby is born and
in the first few yearspostpartum, all of the parents'
attachment issues are coming upbecause they're providing
attachment to their baby, and sothis is such a juicy time in
terms of what kind of healingcan happen.
Oftentimes the healing is nothappening because in this
(19:56):
culture, early parenthood is sounder supported, which is very
sad, um, but unconsciously,whatever age your child is at
will bring up what was happeningto you at that age, and so that
is why so many new memories,new experiences will come up.
And that's why I love doingthis work at this time period,
(20:20):
because I just feel like it'ssuch a potent time to work on
people's relational blueprintswhich are usually at the base of
their traumas, and so when wedo that, we can heal so, so
profoundly, and the beauty of ittoo is that it translates into
their relationship with theirchild, which can really help
future generations.
So there's this beautifulripple effect and beauty in why
(20:42):
those traumas get resurfaced atthat time.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I got goosebumps because I remember hearing about
so many cultures.
I did a lot of studies of othercultures around the world,
especially in relationship tobirth and postpartum, and one
thing that was clear is thatthis was a regular thing that
happened, like if you experiencesomething in your childhood
which almost all of us have atsome level, especially our
(21:06):
generation, then something isgoing to come up and you're
going to remember that traumaand it's not going to
necessarily feel good, but thereason why it comes up is
because you're being.
You're given an invitation toheal.
This is an invitation to healbecause women it is believed in
many of these cultures becauseof your connection, you're able
(21:47):
to heal your body deeper thananyone else would ever be, and
that's the gift of being amother.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yes, and you know, children are divinely tapped
into that knowledge or thatwisdom, right Like they are
closer to the source, becausethey're closer to you know the
beginning.
And so sometimes children willjust say the most amazing stuff
that brings the parents into aninvitation towards healing,
sometimes not in an easy wayeither.
(22:16):
And yeah, so there is thisreally beautiful invitation to
heal, and I think part of thattoo is in the after giving.
Well, giving birth splits uswide open to heal and I think
part of that too is in the aftergiving.
Well, giving birth splits uswide open to healing.
It can, and then afterwards, ifthere's nursing and sleep
deprivation, those things canreally like break down some of
(22:37):
our defenses in ways that aredifficult, but also in ways that
can also in a way promotehealing, because there isn't as
much of this like being in theintellect strong defendedness if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
there can be more of a softness to actually get into
things yeah, and I thinkoftentimes and I can speak for
myself, like I wore so manymasks of who I thought I was and
and what it meant to be a womanand what it meant to be a
mother and what it meant to be awife and you know all of these
things and when you havechildren, they really help you
(23:15):
process, like, what does itactually mean?
And is this really the truth?
And I think one of the mostbeautiful stories is, just, like
you know, we see this often forwomen who are, like you know,
maybe they're a little bit moreshy, and they go into their
labor experience and then all ofa sudden, they're like
stripping naked at, like youknow, because they're eight
(23:36):
centimeters or whatever, andthey're like, I don't even care
anymore, like you know, thisdoesn't matter to me, that it's,
it's off, right, and of course,that's a different part of your
brain and, and maybe a terribleexample, but I find it
oftentimes this is what occursin motherhood as well, where our
children just help us.
You know, they deliver a newstory, one that's closer to the
truth, that allows us to likeshed a lot of these stories that
(24:00):
have been playing out,sometimes generationally,
sometimes stories that don'teven belong to us.
Maybe they belong to our mother, maybe they belong to the way
in which we were birthed intothe world and that we didn't
even heal from Like.
There's so many differentlayers, which is so nice to have
the support person someone likeyourself to like help through
all of these different layers ofbeing, which I think is
(24:23):
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes, no, totally.
I mean I think we get thechildren we need to grow in the
way we need.
Like, my son is my biggestteacher.
I mean I can go on and on aboutthat.
He's just like he was meant tobe here to teach me so, so many
different things.
And I think sometimes also inthe work like what you're saying
, that we can do thisgenerational healing.
(24:45):
There's these ideas also in thework, like what you're saying,
that we can do this generationalhealing.
There's these ideas from familyconstellation work, which I
also integrate, love that work.
Yes, we can say thank you to youknow, thank you to my parent
for this, and I'm giving backwhat belongs to you.
Like, I make it specific to theperson, but, you know, I'm
giving you back the anxiety thatI don't need.
I'm giving you back the anxietythat I don't need.
(25:06):
I'm giving you back youranxiety about this.
Or I'm cutting the cord with,like you know, if there were
many generations of people whohad C-section but then some
woman wants to have a vaginalbirth, what does it mean to?
You know, I appreciate you,thank you to the previous
generations, but I'm cutting thecord because I'm ready to have
this different experience.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
As we wrap up today, what is one practice that you
wish every birth provider ortherapist or person of expertise
who's working with moms andfamilies, what do you wish they
had in their toolbox to helpclients who maybe had a really
difficult or traumatic birthexperience?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah, well, I think that the easiest one to explain
through a recording like this isthat I talked about ongoing
tapping earlier, but alsotapping just 10 times can have a
very regulating effect, like acalming effect, and that's
something I tell clients to doin between sessions when they're
(26:10):
feeling triggered by somethingis to imagine one of their
resources and tap only 10 times,and that's very simple but can
be very profound.
You know, think of a support,something that feels supportive,
like a supportive figure.
It could be a tree, a person,animal, spiritual figure,
whatever feels supportive to you, and then tap 10 times.
(26:33):
The same thing could be donewith a compassion figure, a
protector figure, and just thatsmall practice in the day-to-day
can really help offset some ofthe triggering that might come
as a result of a birth traumaexperience.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
This is beautiful.
Thank you so much for all ofyour wisdom and for sharing this
amazing work that you're doing.
Where can people learn moreabout you and find your work?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, so I have a website and if you go on the
website, you could sign up formy newsletter.
I send out birth trauma healingresources every month all
different types of stuff, so mywebsite is thrivingcacom.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Wonderful and of course, we're going to have that
link for you here as well.
So take a look at that in theshow notes and thank you so much
from the bottom of my heart forbeing here.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yes, thank you so much, miranda, bottom of my
heart for being here.
I appreciate you.
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Miranda, it was a blast.
Thanks so much for being a partof this crucial conversation.
I know you're dedicated toadvancing postpartum care and if
you're ready to dig deeper,come join us on our newsletter,
where I share exclusive insights, resources and the latest tools
to help you make a lastingimpact on postpartum health.
(27:52):
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
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