June 10, 2025 • 34 mins
As a postpartum provider or professional, it can feel like the standard "bounce back" narrative after birth just doesn't quite capture the profound shifts your clients are experiencing and you sense a deeper transformation happening beyond postpartum depression and anxiety. Get ready to have your understanding of motherhood completely reframed with Jessie Harrold as she shared the concept of matrescence – the essential and often overlooked developmental transition into motherhood. Forget the outdated idea of simply "recovering"; this conversation unveils how becoming a mother is a radical rewiring on biological, psychological, social, and even spiritual levels, a journey that can take years and demands a whole new level of support and understanding. This is critical postpartum education for all who work with new mothers.
Check out this episode on the blog HERE.
Key Time Stamps:
- 02:19: Diving into the definition and significance of matrescence.
- 05:02: Comparing matrescence to adolescence
- 07:20: "losing yourself" as a necessary part of mother becoming.
- 10:52: The growth and reprioritization during matrescence.
- 13:20: The normative matrescence experiences & postpartum depression.
- 15:39: Matrescence as a developmental model
- 16:48: Grieving pre-baby identities.
- 21:52: Connecting matrescence to adult development
- 23:37: Mindfulness when navigating postpartum changes.
- 24:42: The importance of community and tradition in the healing process
- 25:40: Exploring "mother powers" as during this transition
- 27:38: The challenges of building community in modern motherhood
Connect with Jessie:
Jessie Harrold is a coach and doula who has been supporting women through radical life transformations and other rites of passage for over fifteen years. Jessie specializes in matrescence, or the transition to motherhood. She's the founder of the internationally acclaimed matrescence support program MotherSHIFT and The Village. She is the author of Mothershift: Reclaiming Motherhood as a Rite of Passage. Website | IG
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelong wellbeing.
Okay, friends, before we divein today's incredible episode, I
have to tell you something.
I made a total mistake in thisconversation and, instead of
(00:43):
editing it out and pretending itdidn't happen, I'm leaving it
in because as providers, asleaders and humans, we make
mistakes, and owning thesemoments, laughing through them
and learning from them, that iswhere the real power lies.
So let this be a reminderPerfection is not the goal.
(01:03):
Authenticity is, and let's getinto it.
Hello, hello, welcome everyoneto the podcast Miranda Bauer.
Here and today I have JesseHarreld, who is a coach and a
doula, who has been supportingwomen through radical life
(01:25):
transformations and other ritesof passage for over 15 years.
She specializes inmatri-science, or the transition
to motherhood, and we are goingto get into that topic hard and
fast today.
I have so many things I want toask her that I want to share
with all of you.
She is the founder of theinternationally acclaimed major
(01:46):
science support program, motherShift and it's sister program
for postpartum professionals ofthe village.
She's the author of MotherShift reclaiming motherhood as a
rite of passage, I almost saidmy book Reclaiming Postpartum
Wellness, because similar titleshere and she's the editor of
the upcoming anthology MotherBecoming Explorations of Major
(02:10):
Science.
I am so glad that you are here.
Thank you so much for being apart of this.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I want you to dive into everything related to major
science.
What is major science?
Because I'm hearing this wordhappen more and more in the
online space and maybe noteverybody is familiar with it,
because I know so many of us,especially as providers, are not
trained in this.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
No, totally.
So the word is matrescence, andmatrescence sounds like
adolescence.
It is, and I'll kind of getinto that in a moment, but it
was coined by a socialanthropologist back in 1975.
His name was Dr Dana Raphael.
She actually also coined theterm doula, which is pretty cool
(03:01):
.
And then you know, she wrotethis beautiful, you know, kind
of body of work and she saidmatrescence is the time of
mother becoming.
It's this transition tomotherhood.
It doesn't happen automaticallyand it needs more study.
And then, you know, as with somany things, so many areas of
research and exploration aroundmothers and women's experiences,
(03:24):
that kind of went undergroundfor a long time and nobody
actually gave matrescence thatfurther study that Dana Raphael
said we so deeply needed untilprobably about 10 years ago when
the term started getting used alittle bit more, started
getting studied a little bitmore, and in the last five or
(03:44):
six years it's really hit themainstream quite a lot.
And you see it, you knowthere's a hashtag.
There's lots of people talkingabout matrescence online.
I guess, depending on thecircles you travel in, but I bet
you, the circles we travel inwe're hearing about it more and
more.
And so matrescence is the wordthat we use to describe the
(04:07):
transition to motherhood, andthat transition is, of course,
biological, it's psychological,it's social, it's economic, it's
sometimes spiritual.
It really is, as I like to say,one of those changes that
changes everything.
And in my work and kind of theresearch that I've done around
(04:31):
this, I posit that matrescencetakes about two to three years.
So we're used to talking aboutmaybe that first six weeks
postpartum, maybe we're used totalking about the fourth
trimester now, thank goodnesswe're talking about that but
when we're talking aboutmatricence we're talking about
something a lot deeper and a lotmore.
(04:54):
I guess it just impacts everyarea of our lives and you know,
matricence like adolescence.
So the sort of the kind of mostimportant thing to kind of note
about matricence is that it'sconsidered to be a developmental
shift, just like adolescence is.
And you know we think ofadolescence as a time that lasts
(05:18):
quite a number of years.
We think of it as being kind ofan awkward and sometimes
challenging and sometimes evenpainful time in our lives as we
sort of awkwardly figure out whowe're becoming, and we overall
look at adolescence as a goodthing.
You know, you're becoming moremature, you're becoming an adult
(05:40):
, you are, you know,contributing to the wider world
in a different way.
And though kind of don't love itwhen adolescents bounce back,
I'm going to use that term,borrow it from sort of the way
we think about and talk aboutmotherhood in our culture.
We, you know, if adolescentsstart talking or start behaving
(06:01):
like children again, we think ofthat as a pretty bad thing,
right, we want them to grow upand grow older and grow mature
and go through thisdevelopmental transformation and
come out the other side evenmore themselves, even more
mature than they were.
And, interestingly, likematricence is also a
developmental shift.
(06:22):
But in our culture we're prettycaught up with the idea that
actually changing in motherhoodat all is something to be
avoided.
You know we're encouraged tobounce back.
Many of us have to, you know,return to work immediately
afterwards or, you know, don'thave adequate childcare or other
supports.
So we kind of end up beingforced back into this pre-baby
(06:46):
life and we say that losingyourself in motherhood is the
worst thing.
So we're really denying mothersthe possibility and potential
that also exists in thisdevelopmental transition into
motherhood.
So that's long story short,short story long about
matrescence.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I love this so much, and I first have to address the
fact that I called itmatri-science rather than matri
I'm still gonna mess it up.
Matrescence, matrescence, yeah,and I think that just speaks to
one.
The fact that how, how littleI've heard this word and many
others maybe are like how couldyou have gotten that wrong?
(07:28):
But I'm gonna leave that herefor everyone to see that I am a
imperfect, perfect human beingand will always get things wrong
, and it's totally fine, and soI just wanna leave everyone with
that.
But you said something superprofound and I wanna address
this.
You said that and I capturedthis from some other things that
(07:48):
you are, you've been writingand working on and I'm so
excited to get your book.
But you said that losingyourself in motherhood isn't the
problem but the point, and thatis such a bold, beautiful
statement.
Can you kind of unpack whatthat means, especially for
providers who are kind oftrained to you know, quote
(08:09):
unquote bring moms back intothemselves.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, totally, totally.
There's a bit of nuance here soI will dive into that.
But but I'll start with, yeah,that when we become mothers we
become new.
There's no turning back, youknow.
And the thing is is that everylife transition we go through,
(08:34):
whether it's that transitioninto motherhood or something
else, asks us to let go of whowe are no longer so that we can
fully step into who we'rebecoming.
And I think this is a prettyunusual kind of statement in our
wider culture, because hand inhand with that means that we
(08:54):
might have feelings about that.
Specifically, we might be kindof sad about that, or grieve
that loss of self.
And you know, in a culture thathas quite sort of a dearth of
grief literacy, it can feelreally scary to imagine that you
(09:17):
might feel sad feelings and notknow what to do with them, or
that that might look poorly onyou, upon as a mother, for
example.
So we kind of try and avoid allof these more complex and messy
and nuanced feelings that weall feel in motherhood, but
maybe don't talk about as much.
So, yeah, the thing is, youknow, when we talk about losing
(09:40):
yourself in motherhood, you know, as a practitioner I've been
supporting mothers for like 17years now, and here's what I see
.
I see mothers either trying tokind of scramble back to the way
things were, to the pre-babygenes, to the way their
partnership felt like beforehaving a baby, to you know,
(10:01):
whatever you name it and andthere's often a lot of suffering
with that, because they arejust different, we are different
and or I see mothers kind oflike pushing through to the next
thing, like trying really hardto find the new normal, you know
and and and you know, trying tokind of bypass all of this
(10:22):
really messy like who am I now?
Stuff right, because it'suncomfortable and that actually
kind of limits the potential andpossibility that also exists
when we are able to kind of letgo of that pre-motherhood
identity and consider forourselves you know what?
Who am I really?
Who am I now?
(10:43):
Who am I now that I'm a mother?
You know what actually would.
Am I really?
Who am I now?
Who am I now that I'm a mother?
You know what actually would Ilove to let go of?
You know, I'm sure you see thisin your practice.
I see a lot of mothers who getlaser clear on their priorities
and let go of things that aren'tserving them anymore.
That can be a part of losingyourself in motherhood and you
(11:03):
know I like to say that youcan't do the growth without the
grief.
So we need to actually feelthese tough feelings, to
consider what we're letting goof and, you know, get support
with that, of course, but thatthere's a lot of power and
potential that's also availableto us.
What we forget to say is thatyou find someone completely new
(11:28):
and there's a good chance thatshe's more of who you are and
that she is more aligned withwhat matters most to you, what
your values are.
Now I do want to kind of invitethe nuance here, in the sense
that you know we live in aculture that you know has a lot
(11:50):
of messaging and norms and kindof uh, you know, really toxic,
actually toxic messages formothers that can pull us away
from who we truly are and canpull us out of what would
otherwise potentially be areally empowering experience.
So you know, yes, some of usmight lose ourselves in
(12:10):
motherhood because we haveinadequate childcare or because,
you know, inadequate maternityleaves or you name it, the
number of injustices thatmothers experience, and that's
not the.
You know the full truth of it,that's part of it.
But also, you know, motherhoodhas always changed us since the
beginning of time, and it'salways meant to, it's always
(12:32):
meant to have been a rite ofpassage, and I think that's
really what we're kind ofmissing in our culture.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
As I'm hearing, you share all of this.
I'm wondering and I know thatI've experienced this in my own
birthing and growing humanbeings and also witnessing it in
a multitude of my clientssometimes this confusion between
the grief and the letting goand then what we've almost
(13:03):
normalized as postpartumdepression, which is a real
problem in our world, do you seethat sometimes those two kind
of either go together or getconfused?
Or, you know, do you haveanything that you can share on
that in particular?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, totally, and I'm going to invite us all to
just hold a lot of nuance herebecause there is a lot of nuance
to this.
But there are many reproductivepsychologists and psychiatrists
now who are positing thatbecause we don't have a lot of
ways to talk about thepostpartum time, aside from when
(13:41):
it is really challenging andinvolves like a diagnosis of
postpartum time aside from whenit is really challenging and
involves like a diagnosis ofpostpartum mental health
challenges, because we don'thave much of a rubric for that.
When we see a mother who'sgoing through big challenges,
who's experiencing grief andsadness, for example or anger
can be part of that sort ofspectrum of emotion we so these
(14:10):
kind of these folks, these whoare sort of witnessing that in
their mental health professions,are positing that we're perhaps
labeling what is actually anormative experience of the
transition to motherhood as apostpartum mood disorder, when
in fact motherhood as apostpartum mood disorder, when
in fact it may actually be partof this normal experience.
So it's super nuanced,obviously, but because we kind
(14:32):
of lack those skills to, youknow, support us through grief
and loss, because we kind oflack this language, we we think
that we're supposed to bounceback.
And if we don't bounce back,there's something wrong with us.
We think we're supposed to lovemotherhood 100% of the time and
if we don't, there's somethingwrong with us, right?
So we kind of pathologize someof the challenges in this
(14:55):
process and what matrescence is.
I've kind of referred to it as adevelopmental model.
So a developmental model kindof says, like, when we go
through a period of growth ofany kind, you know, there's
actually kind of a Venn diagramwhere this work overlaps with
post-traumatic growth research.
Anytime we go through a bigchange, we have lots of
(15:19):
challenge and we grapple withthat and we get help and
whatever else is needed and wehave lots of possibility.
And so you know, like I usedthe example of adolescence, it's
the same thing happening here,and so I think it's important to
still have these, you know,conversations about postpartum
(15:39):
mood disorders and the like, thereally complex array of things
that impact those, not least ofwhich is the culture within
which we're raising our childrenand becoming mothers.
But we can also have aconversation about what's normal
or what's normative in thisexperience, but challenging but
(16:03):
also kind of filled withpossibility when well supported.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I love this so much and I can share a little bit
about my experience.
To kind of give everyone anexample, I remember having my
second and I had created.
I was a single mom for my firstand in order to survive that
single motherhood, I had createdthis entire image of what it
would be like with just me andmy son, because there was no way
(16:28):
that I would ever have anotherkid.
That was just something that Ihad created in my mind, and so I
had this beautiful version ofmy life in my head that I lived
by that it was just me and myson, and this is what's going to
be our beautiful life, and Iwas going to create that
beautiful life.
And then, of course, they metmy husband and we have a
(16:51):
beautiful relationship.
And then I had a baby.
And then, after having mydaughter second baby now I was
like whoa, of course I've beenin it, I've, I've, you know, met
my husband and we've goingthrough this and clearly there's
no more of my son and me.
But it wasn't until thatpostpartum period came where
that story that was playing inmy head became challenged and I
(17:15):
was like this is no longer mylife, and that was such a
beautiful thing that I hadcreated, that I lived by, that,
I thrived in, that.
I made sure that my son andmyself were like it was just
like this, you know, beautifulspace that I was created, and
now it's no longer, because nowI have my partner and now I have
(17:38):
another baby who I equally carefor, and so there was this
whole grieving that took placeof that story and and then I had
to ask myself wait a second,this, this felt really similar.
It felt really similar to whathad happened when I had my first
and that grieving process andalthough it wasn't the same
(18:01):
grieving process, I in my first,it was like that life and that,
the freedom that I had feltbefore and and now I'm having
this kid who relies on me, 24,seven, and not being able to to
do the things that I had, youknow, done and my body's
different and you know mourningthose aspects of myself, but the
feeling was very much the sameand it was a whole new
(18:23):
perspective for me that thatdeveloped from that.
And, of course, I felt it indifferent iterations, with kid
number three and kid number four, and I've also seen it so many,
so many other times as well inthe women that I've supported.
And it's just.
It is, you know, finding thatbalance between what is this
normal?
You know, finding that balancebetween what is this normal, you
(18:47):
know, normative process that weall go through that is
challenging, yet beautiful inthe same breath.
Right Again, all of thosenuances that are a part of this,
which kind of makes postpartuma little challenging to study.
But I do have a question foryou.
There's this emerging researchthat shows that knowing, just
like simply knowing aboutmatricence can be protective
(19:16):
against postpartum depressioncan be protective against
postpartum depression.
Can you speak to that connectionand how providers can really
integrate that understandinginto their client work?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, totally so.
There's a kind of a verypreliminary early study that
shows that when mothers see thisexperience as well, this study
actually looked at as apotentially spiritually
enriching experience, but alsoone that offers a lot of
personal growth and developmentwhen mothers see this process in
(19:58):
that way and so are justinvited to see that way, just
like we're talking about itright now.
You know, for so many mothersjust hearing this word
matrescence and knowing thatit's a thing and that they're
not normal, it's like all ittakes right.
But this research shows that itactually, within this study
group, lowered the rates ofpostpartum depression or the
(20:20):
risk of postpartum depressionfor the entire first postpartum
year.
So that is really interestingand promising.
And then we can pull also, as Imentioned, from some of the
post-traumatic growth researchand some other like very
preliminary studies, that kindof use that alongside positive
psychology to sort of say, hey,there are a lot of things that
(20:44):
in and amongst the challengesthat we face also occur.
So a lot of mothers are able tohold nuance just as we're
talking about nuance and paradoxmore easily.
You know, as you and I probablyboth know, and most of the
people listening, when youbecome a mother like everything
it's not black and white anymore, right, like everything is sort
(21:06):
of you're able to kind of holdthe both and a little bit more.
A lot of mothers experience anincrease in their intuition, a
sense of presence andmindfulness.
That's different than what,when you know pre-baby they were
able to experience, baby, theywere able to experience.
There's like this experiencewhere so in my research I've
(21:33):
kind of overlapped the adultdevelopment psychology research.
One of my favorite researchersis Dr Robert Keegan at Harvard
University, and he studies thekind of development of the adult
mind and way of thinking, sortof similar to the way that we
talk about our children'smilestones.
We actually have adultmilestones, and one of the
things he talks about is thisability to be self-authoring.
(21:54):
So rather than kind of lookingto everyone else and kind of you
know, copying what they'redoing or like using a lot of
social referencing to decide whowe are and how we should be in
the world, we start to authorour own lives and we start to
kind of be a little bit moresovereign and be a little bit
more kind of able to access asense of authenticity.
(22:17):
So all of these things areactually markers of mature adult
development.
So there's just this reallyincredible stuff that's also
happening for mothers whilewe're going through these
challenges and like, maybebecause we're going through
these challenges right andthat's not to say that I don't
want you know the conditionsunder which we mother to improve
(22:41):
drastically, please you knowbut that there's a lot more than
just the challenges and justthe oppression and just the
pathology that we tend to focuson because it deserves our
attention.
But there's more.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's so interesting.
There was a recent study and Ijust shared this in a newsletter
and it was about traitmindfulness, and so they took
over 600 postpartum women andthey had found that mindfulness
had a greater impact ondepression outcomes than
resiliency and self-efficacy,and actually that when someone
(23:19):
was more mindful and they hadit's a it's a beautiful study
and they they break down exactlywhat they mean by that.
That would go way above andbeyond this episode but that it
actually increased resiliencyand self-efficacy and so women
were able to navigate all ofthese changes a little bit more
(23:39):
fluidly without having to.
And I and I'm I'm seeing thatand and what I just shared, and
like hearing you and likeputting all of those pieces
together.
And you're right, we need somany more changes in this world
that supports women but alsosupports women so that they can
go through this shift.
(24:00):
I love that you have a programcalled Mother Shift and your
book Mother Shift ReclaimingMotherhood as a Rite of Passage,
and these are so deeply rootedin community and tradition,
which I think is oftentimes kindof an afterthought or something
that we don't necessarily getto pay too much attention to,
(24:24):
especially because you know inour world of when we go seek
help as moms, we tend to go to aprovider who's got only a
couple of minutes of their timeand we can't necessarily find
community and tradition in thosespaces.
But what can we do to find thatcommunity and that tradition
and bring that into ourselvesfor healing, for that experience
(24:49):
, and to bring about more healthand well-being within us and
therefore within our communityas a whole?
Yeah, this is a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
One of the things that I talk about in the book
are these things that I call themother powers, and the mother
powers are these kind of skillsand capacities that we have
access to during this time ofmatricence, and it's not only
people who go through matricencethat have access to these
things, but we kind of get likea rocket boost and also they can
(25:20):
support us through matrescence,and they're also extremely
counter-cultural in our timesand so in my mind, as we're
learning these things as newmothers, we're also bringing
them to the wider world.
Community is one of the motherpowers.
Also ritual self-tending, whichis a different way to think of
(25:41):
self-care, embodiment, earthconnection, inner knowing and
creativity, and so these arekind of the tools and resources
that I support mothers to pullon and grow capacity around, and
they already are, because theyseem to be a really like an
almost inherent part of ourtransition to motherhood for so
(26:02):
many of us.
So community I mean this is aquestion that I'm grappling with
ongoingly in my own lifebecause we live in a really
hyper individualistic society,and the reason why community is
a mother power is that, you know, among these kind of traits of
adult development that we kindof grow in motherhood is this
(26:25):
ability to be moreinterdependent.
And because we have to be right, because all of a sudden, like
you talked about you know,especially with your first child
, you go from being thisautonomous human being to all of
a sudden having another littleperson that you are fully you
know being this autonomous humanbeing, to all of a sudden
having another little personthat you are fully, you know,
interdependent with, and so weget this kind of crash course in
(26:47):
what it is to show up foranother person.
And so I think there's a lot ofpotential there when it comes
to our ability to buildcommunity.
And then this horrible ironythat I think like community, and
then this horrible irony that Ithink like so many of us are
stretched thin in motherhoodthese days and like the last
thing we have the kind of youknow, spoons to do those are
(27:09):
spot to do is to reach out andsay, hey, do you want to go for
coffee?
Or like, meet up with someone,or make someone a batch of your
homemade granola and take itover, right, but I don't know if
there's a hack for this.
Like I feel like we need to,kind of, you know, start showing
up in our own way, in the waythat we would want to receive
(27:29):
support and have thoseconversations with the people
around us about reciprocity.
I think asking for help is ahuge community building move,
and it's one that so many of usare uncomfortable with.
But I always like to thinkabout, and share this with the
mothers that I work with, thateveryone that I know loves to
(27:51):
help other people.
Like that is a source of greatmeaning in our lives, and so you
know we can think of our askfor help as a gift to the other
person, as a as an opportunityfor them to help and to know
that they're being of assistance.
This is my new trick Whenever Ioffer help to someone, rather
than saying like, hey, let meknow if you need anything, I'll
(28:13):
say if you would let me bringover dinner tomorrow night, you
would make me so happy.
I would love to do that for you, would you?
Let me do that for you, andit's so different than you know.
Let me know if you needanything.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I love that so much.
That is such a beautiful thingbecause you're right, we do want
to help and I feel like sooften we have.
You know, everybody comes overafter baby is born and
everybody's so excited.
But if you ask them to actuallydo something, like they're
going to be quick to do it right, like they're like, yeah, sure,
you need your laundry done.
(28:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'll take care ofthat.
You know, like the excitementis there.
I think we've just forgotten howto take care of mothers.
And here we are the generationhaving babies and supporting
women and families in havingbabies, and expanding our
communities with this.
And we have to make that shiftand that change so that our
(29:13):
children can experience that somuch more better, so much more
beautifully than we had theopportunity to.
So you know, know that when youare asking for that help and
this is something that hashelped me tremendously is
knowing that I am training thisnext generation to be able to
feel comfortable doing the exactsame or be in a position where
(29:36):
maybe they don't have to ask forhelp because it's already
provided, because we remembered,because we remembered.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Oh yes, let's send that one up as a big hope for
the future.
Definitely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I feel like I can sit here and have a conversation
with you forever.
I'm just like sitting in hereand going over our conversation
in our head and I feel likethere's such a calm presence to
you and I just want toacknowledge that for one and two
, to really invite people toyour space.
(30:13):
Do you have anything coming up?
Do you have?
Where can people find you andyour books and everything that
you, you, have got to share?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, thank you so much.
That's really sweet to hear.
I have a website,jessieheraldcom, and lots of
kind of information blogs, apodcast on there called the
Becoming Podcast, and a monthlynewsletter that I send out
called Imaginalia, for anyonegoing through any kind of life
transition.
And you mentioned earlier Ihave a couple of programs.
(30:43):
So Mothershift is a supportprogram, three months long
program for new mamas, and Ialso have the Village, which is
a six months long matricenceapprenticeship program for
perinatal professionals.
So that's that, and then I hangout on Instagram for the most
part.
So if you're on the gram, headover and visit me over there.
Yeah, thank you so much.
(31:05):
Oh, my book, right?
Yes, most important thing, yes,my book is mother shift,
reclaiming motherhood as a riteof passage, and it is available
anywhere books are sold.
Do do us a favor and like, askfor it at your local bookstore
and maybe avoid the big aretailer.
(31:26):
Yeah, I feel that one.
Yeah, so I would love it ifpeople are interested in what I
have to say.
There's lots and lots more inthe book, so matriarch sense.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I'm gonna say I.
I am going to practice thisword after we hang up, but I
wanted to say it correctly onthe show for the first time.
I love this.
Thank you so much forwitnessing me and my humanness
and for everybody else who islistening in and also just
sharing such this, thisbeautiful, beautiful story, and
(32:01):
almost I feel like rewriting thepostpartum experience as we
know it.
So thank you for that.
We need that.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for the
amazing work that you weredoing as well so important
Thanks thanks so much for beinga part of this crucial
conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I know you're dedicated to advancing
postpartum care and if you'reready to dig deeper, come join
us on our newsletter, where Ishare exclusive insights,
resources and the latest toolsto help you make a lasting
impact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
(32:48):
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
The postpartum care system is failing, leaving
countless mothers strugglingwith depression, anxiety and
autoimmune conditions.
I'm Miranda Bauer and I'vehelped thousands of providers
use holistic care practices toheal their clients at the root.
Subscribe now and join us inaddressing what modern medicine
(00:22):
overlooks, so that you can giveyour clients real, lasting
solutions for lifelong wellbeing.
Okay, friends, before we divein today's incredible episode, I
have to tell you something.
I made a total mistake in thisconversation and, instead of
(00:43):
editing it out and pretending itdidn't happen, I'm leaving it
in because as providers, asleaders and humans, we make
mistakes, and owning thesemoments, laughing through them
and learning from them, that iswhere the real power lies.
So let this be a reminderPerfection is not the goal.
(01:03):
Authenticity is, and let's getinto it.
Hello, hello, welcome everyoneto the podcast Miranda Bauer.
Here and today I have JesseHarreld, who is a coach and a
doula, who has been supportingwomen through radical life
(01:25):
transformations and other ritesof passage for over 15 years.
She specializes inmatri-science, or the transition
to motherhood, and we are goingto get into that topic hard and
fast today.
I have so many things I want toask her that I want to share
with all of you.
She is the founder of theinternationally acclaimed major
(01:46):
science support program, motherShift and it's sister program
for postpartum professionals ofthe village.
She's the author of MotherShift reclaiming motherhood as a
rite of passage, I almost saidmy book Reclaiming Postpartum
Wellness, because similar titleshere and she's the editor of
the upcoming anthology MotherBecoming Explorations of Major
(02:10):
Science.
I am so glad that you are here.
Thank you so much for being apart of this.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I want you to dive into everything related to major
science.
What is major science?
Because I'm hearing this wordhappen more and more in the
online space and maybe noteverybody is familiar with it,
because I know so many of us,especially as providers, are not
trained in this.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
No, totally.
So the word is matrescence, andmatrescence sounds like
adolescence.
It is, and I'll kind of getinto that in a moment, but it
was coined by a socialanthropologist back in 1975.
His name was Dr Dana Raphael.
She actually also coined theterm doula, which is pretty cool
(03:01):
.
And then you know, she wrotethis beautiful, you know, kind
of body of work and she saidmatrescence is the time of
mother becoming.
It's this transition tomotherhood.
It doesn't happen automaticallyand it needs more study.
And then, you know, as with somany things, so many areas of
research and exploration aroundmothers and women's experiences,
(03:24):
that kind of went undergroundfor a long time and nobody
actually gave matrescence thatfurther study that Dana Raphael
said we so deeply needed untilprobably about 10 years ago when
the term started getting used alittle bit more, started
getting studied a little bitmore, and in the last five or
(03:44):
six years it's really hit themainstream quite a lot.
And you see it, you knowthere's a hashtag.
There's lots of people talkingabout matrescence online.
I guess, depending on thecircles you travel in, but I bet
you, the circles we travel inwe're hearing about it more and
more.
And so matrescence is the wordthat we use to describe the
(04:07):
transition to motherhood, andthat transition is, of course,
biological, it's psychological,it's social, it's economic, it's
sometimes spiritual.
It really is, as I like to say,one of those changes that
changes everything.
And in my work and kind of theresearch that I've done around
(04:31):
this, I posit that matrescencetakes about two to three years.
So we're used to talking aboutmaybe that first six weeks
postpartum, maybe we're used totalking about the fourth
trimester now, thank goodnesswe're talking about that but
when we're talking aboutmatricence we're talking about
something a lot deeper and a lotmore.
(04:54):
I guess it just impacts everyarea of our lives and you know,
matricence like adolescence.
So the sort of the kind of mostimportant thing to kind of note
about matricence is that it'sconsidered to be a developmental
shift, just like adolescence is.
And you know we think ofadolescence as a time that lasts
(05:18):
quite a number of years.
We think of it as being kind ofan awkward and sometimes
challenging and sometimes evenpainful time in our lives as we
sort of awkwardly figure out whowe're becoming, and we overall
look at adolescence as a goodthing.
You know, you're becoming moremature, you're becoming an adult
(05:40):
, you are, you know,contributing to the wider world
in a different way.
And though kind of don't love itwhen adolescents bounce back,
I'm going to use that term,borrow it from sort of the way
we think about and talk aboutmotherhood in our culture.
We, you know, if adolescentsstart talking or start behaving
(06:01):
like children again, we think ofthat as a pretty bad thing,
right, we want them to grow upand grow older and grow mature
and go through thisdevelopmental transformation and
come out the other side evenmore themselves, even more
mature than they were.
And, interestingly, likematricence is also a
developmental shift.
(06:22):
But in our culture we're prettycaught up with the idea that
actually changing in motherhoodat all is something to be
avoided.
You know we're encouraged tobounce back.
Many of us have to, you know,return to work immediately
afterwards or, you know, don'thave adequate childcare or other
supports.
So we kind of end up beingforced back into this pre-baby
(06:46):
life and we say that losingyourself in motherhood is the
worst thing.
So we're really denying mothersthe possibility and potential
that also exists in thisdevelopmental transition into
motherhood.
So that's long story short,short story long about
matrescence.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I love this so much, and I first have to address the
fact that I called itmatri-science rather than matri
I'm still gonna mess it up.
Matrescence, matrescence, yeah,and I think that just speaks to
one.
The fact that how, how littleI've heard this word and many
others maybe are like how couldyou have gotten that wrong?
(07:28):
But I'm gonna leave that herefor everyone to see that I am a
imperfect, perfect human beingand will always get things wrong
, and it's totally fine, and soI just wanna leave everyone with
that.
But you said something superprofound and I wanna address
this.
You said that and I capturedthis from some other things that
(07:48):
you are, you've been writingand working on and I'm so
excited to get your book.
But you said that losingyourself in motherhood isn't the
problem but the point, and thatis such a bold, beautiful
statement.
Can you kind of unpack whatthat means, especially for
providers who are kind oftrained to you know, quote
(08:09):
unquote bring moms back intothemselves.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, totally, totally.
There's a bit of nuance here soI will dive into that.
But but I'll start with, yeah,that when we become mothers we
become new.
There's no turning back, youknow.
And the thing is is that everylife transition we go through,
(08:34):
whether it's that transitioninto motherhood or something
else, asks us to let go of whowe are no longer so that we can
fully step into who we'rebecoming.
And I think this is a prettyunusual kind of statement in our
wider culture, because hand inhand with that means that we
(08:54):
might have feelings about that.
Specifically, we might be kindof sad about that, or grieve
that loss of self.
And you know, in a culture thathas quite sort of a dearth of
grief literacy, it can feelreally scary to imagine that you
(09:17):
might feel sad feelings and notknow what to do with them, or
that that might look poorly onyou, upon as a mother, for
example.
So we kind of try and avoid allof these more complex and messy
and nuanced feelings that weall feel in motherhood, but
maybe don't talk about as much.
So, yeah, the thing is, youknow, when we talk about losing
(09:40):
yourself in motherhood, you know, as a practitioner I've been
supporting mothers for like 17years now, and here's what I see
.
I see mothers either trying tokind of scramble back to the way
things were, to the pre-babygenes, to the way their
partnership felt like beforehaving a baby, to you know,
(10:01):
whatever you name it and andthere's often a lot of suffering
with that, because they arejust different, we are different
and or I see mothers kind oflike pushing through to the next
thing, like trying really hardto find the new normal, you know
and and and you know, trying tokind of bypass all of this
(10:22):
really messy like who am I now?
Stuff right, because it'suncomfortable and that actually
kind of limits the potential andpossibility that also exists
when we are able to kind of letgo of that pre-motherhood
identity and consider forourselves you know what?
Who am I really?
Who am I now?
(10:43):
Who am I now that I'm a mother?
You know what actually would.
Am I really?
Who am I now?
Who am I now that I'm a mother?
You know what actually would Ilove to let go of?
You know, I'm sure you see thisin your practice.
I see a lot of mothers who getlaser clear on their priorities
and let go of things that aren'tserving them anymore.
That can be a part of losingyourself in motherhood and you
(11:03):
know I like to say that youcan't do the growth without the
grief.
So we need to actually feelthese tough feelings, to
consider what we're letting goof and, you know, get support
with that, of course, but thatthere's a lot of power and
potential that's also availableto us.
What we forget to say is thatyou find someone completely new
(11:28):
and there's a good chance thatshe's more of who you are and
that she is more aligned withwhat matters most to you, what
your values are.
Now I do want to kind of invitethe nuance here, in the sense
that you know we live in aculture that you know has a lot
(11:50):
of messaging and norms and kindof uh, you know, really toxic,
actually toxic messages formothers that can pull us away
from who we truly are and canpull us out of what would
otherwise potentially be areally empowering experience.
So you know, yes, some of usmight lose ourselves in
(12:10):
motherhood because we haveinadequate childcare or because,
you know, inadequate maternityleaves or you name it, the
number of injustices thatmothers experience, and that's
not the.
You know the full truth of it,that's part of it.
But also, you know, motherhoodhas always changed us since the
beginning of time, and it'salways meant to, it's always
(12:32):
meant to have been a rite ofpassage, and I think that's
really what we're kind ofmissing in our culture.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
As I'm hearing, you share all of this.
I'm wondering and I know thatI've experienced this in my own
birthing and growing humanbeings and also witnessing it in
a multitude of my clientssometimes this confusion between
the grief and the letting goand then what we've almost
(13:03):
normalized as postpartumdepression, which is a real
problem in our world, do you seethat sometimes those two kind
of either go together or getconfused?
Or, you know, do you haveanything that you can share on
that in particular?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, totally, and I'm going to invite us all to
just hold a lot of nuance herebecause there is a lot of nuance
to this.
But there are many reproductivepsychologists and psychiatrists
now who are positing thatbecause we don't have a lot of
ways to talk about thepostpartum time, aside from when
(13:41):
it is really challenging andinvolves like a diagnosis of
postpartum time aside from whenit is really challenging and
involves like a diagnosis ofpostpartum mental health
challenges, because we don'thave much of a rubric for that.
When we see a mother who'sgoing through big challenges,
who's experiencing grief andsadness, for example or anger
can be part of that sort ofspectrum of emotion we so these
(14:10):
kind of these folks, these whoare sort of witnessing that in
their mental health professions,are positing that we're perhaps
labeling what is actually anormative experience of the
transition to motherhood as apostpartum mood disorder, when
in fact motherhood as apostpartum mood disorder, when
in fact it may actually be partof this normal experience.
So it's super nuanced,obviously, but because we kind
(14:32):
of lack those skills to, youknow, support us through grief
and loss, because we kind oflack this language, we we think
that we're supposed to bounceback.
And if we don't bounce back,there's something wrong with us.
We think we're supposed to lovemotherhood 100% of the time and
if we don't, there's somethingwrong with us, right?
So we kind of pathologize someof the challenges in this
(14:55):
process and what matrescence is.
I've kind of referred to it as adevelopmental model.
So a developmental model kindof says, like, when we go
through a period of growth ofany kind, you know, there's
actually kind of a Venn diagramwhere this work overlaps with
post-traumatic growth research.
Anytime we go through a bigchange, we have lots of
(15:19):
challenge and we grapple withthat and we get help and
whatever else is needed and wehave lots of possibility.
And so you know, like I usedthe example of adolescence, it's
the same thing happening here,and so I think it's important to
still have these, you know,conversations about postpartum
(15:39):
mood disorders and the like, thereally complex array of things
that impact those, not least ofwhich is the culture within
which we're raising our childrenand becoming mothers.
But we can also have aconversation about what's normal
or what's normative in thisexperience, but challenging but
(16:03):
also kind of filled withpossibility when well supported.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I love this so much and I can share a little bit
about my experience.
To kind of give everyone anexample, I remember having my
second and I had created.
I was a single mom for my firstand in order to survive that
single motherhood, I had createdthis entire image of what it
would be like with just me andmy son, because there was no way
(16:28):
that I would ever have anotherkid.
That was just something that Ihad created in my mind, and so I
had this beautiful version ofmy life in my head that I lived
by that it was just me and myson, and this is what's going to
be our beautiful life, and Iwas going to create that
beautiful life.
And then, of course, they metmy husband and we have a
(16:51):
beautiful relationship.
And then I had a baby.
And then, after having mydaughter second baby now I was
like whoa, of course I've beenin it, I've, I've, you know, met
my husband and we've goingthrough this and clearly there's
no more of my son and me.
But it wasn't until thatpostpartum period came where
that story that was playing inmy head became challenged and I
(17:15):
was like this is no longer mylife, and that was such a
beautiful thing that I hadcreated, that I lived by, that,
I thrived in, that.
I made sure that my son andmyself were like it was just
like this, you know, beautifulspace that I was created, and
now it's no longer, because nowI have my partner and now I have
(17:38):
another baby who I equally carefor, and so there was this
whole grieving that took placeof that story and and then I had
to ask myself wait a second,this, this felt really similar.
It felt really similar to whathad happened when I had my first
and that grieving process andalthough it wasn't the same
(18:01):
grieving process, I in my first,it was like that life and that,
the freedom that I had feltbefore and and now I'm having
this kid who relies on me, 24,seven, and not being able to to
do the things that I had, youknow, done and my body's
different and you know mourningthose aspects of myself, but the
feeling was very much the sameand it was a whole new
(18:23):
perspective for me that thatdeveloped from that.
And, of course, I felt it indifferent iterations, with kid
number three and kid number four, and I've also seen it so many,
so many other times as well inthe women that I've supported.
And it's just.
It is, you know, finding thatbalance between what is this
normal?
You know, finding that balancebetween what is this normal, you
(18:47):
know, normative process that weall go through that is
challenging, yet beautiful inthe same breath.
Right Again, all of thosenuances that are a part of this,
which kind of makes postpartuma little challenging to study.
But I do have a question foryou.
There's this emerging researchthat shows that knowing, just
like simply knowing aboutmatricence can be protective
(19:16):
against postpartum depressioncan be protective against
postpartum depression.
Can you speak to that connectionand how providers can really
integrate that understandinginto their client work?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, totally so.
There's a kind of a verypreliminary early study that
shows that when mothers see thisexperience as well, this study
actually looked at as apotentially spiritually
enriching experience, but alsoone that offers a lot of
personal growth and developmentwhen mothers see this process in
(19:58):
that way and so are justinvited to see that way, just
like we're talking about itright now.
You know, for so many mothersjust hearing this word
matrescence and knowing thatit's a thing and that they're
not normal, it's like all ittakes right.
But this research shows that itactually, within this study
group, lowered the rates ofpostpartum depression or the
(20:20):
risk of postpartum depressionfor the entire first postpartum
year.
So that is really interestingand promising.
And then we can pull also, as Imentioned, from some of the
post-traumatic growth researchand some other like very
preliminary studies, that kindof use that alongside positive
psychology to sort of say, hey,there are a lot of things that
(20:44):
in and amongst the challengesthat we face also occur.
So a lot of mothers are able tohold nuance just as we're
talking about nuance and paradoxmore easily.
You know, as you and I probablyboth know, and most of the
people listening, when youbecome a mother like everything
it's not black and white anymore, right, like everything is sort
(21:06):
of you're able to kind of holdthe both and a little bit more.
A lot of mothers experience anincrease in their intuition, a
sense of presence andmindfulness.
That's different than what,when you know pre-baby they were
able to experience, baby, theywere able to experience.
There's like this experiencewhere so in my research I've
(21:33):
kind of overlapped the adultdevelopment psychology research.
One of my favorite researchersis Dr Robert Keegan at Harvard
University, and he studies thekind of development of the adult
mind and way of thinking, sortof similar to the way that we
talk about our children'smilestones.
We actually have adultmilestones, and one of the
things he talks about is thisability to be self-authoring.
(21:54):
So rather than kind of lookingto everyone else and kind of you
know, copying what they'redoing or like using a lot of
social referencing to decide whowe are and how we should be in
the world, we start to authorour own lives and we start to
kind of be a little bit moresovereign and be a little bit
more kind of able to access asense of authenticity.
(22:17):
So all of these things areactually markers of mature adult
development.
So there's just this reallyincredible stuff that's also
happening for mothers whilewe're going through these
challenges and like, maybebecause we're going through
these challenges right andthat's not to say that I don't
want you know the conditionsunder which we mother to improve
(22:41):
drastically, please you knowbut that there's a lot more than
just the challenges and justthe oppression and just the
pathology that we tend to focuson because it deserves our
attention.
But there's more.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's so interesting.
There was a recent study and Ijust shared this in a newsletter
and it was about traitmindfulness, and so they took
over 600 postpartum women andthey had found that mindfulness
had a greater impact ondepression outcomes than
resiliency and self-efficacy,and actually that when someone
(23:19):
was more mindful and they hadit's a it's a beautiful study
and they they break down exactlywhat they mean by that.
That would go way above andbeyond this episode but that it
actually increased resiliencyand self-efficacy and so women
were able to navigate all ofthese changes a little bit more
(23:39):
fluidly without having to.
And I and I'm I'm seeing thatand and what I just shared, and
like hearing you and likeputting all of those pieces
together.
And you're right, we need somany more changes in this world
that supports women but alsosupports women so that they can
go through this shift.
(24:00):
I love that you have a programcalled Mother Shift and your
book Mother Shift ReclaimingMotherhood as a Rite of Passage,
and these are so deeply rootedin community and tradition,
which I think is oftentimes kindof an afterthought or something
that we don't necessarily getto pay too much attention to,
(24:24):
especially because you know inour world of when we go seek
help as moms, we tend to go to aprovider who's got only a
couple of minutes of their timeand we can't necessarily find
community and tradition in thosespaces.
But what can we do to find thatcommunity and that tradition
and bring that into ourselvesfor healing, for that experience
(24:49):
, and to bring about more healthand well-being within us and
therefore within our communityas a whole?
Yeah, this is a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
One of the things that I talk about in the book
are these things that I call themother powers, and the mother
powers are these kind of skillsand capacities that we have
access to during this time ofmatricence, and it's not only
people who go through matricencethat have access to these
things, but we kind of get likea rocket boost and also they can
(25:20):
support us through matrescence,and they're also extremely
counter-cultural in our timesand so in my mind, as we're
learning these things as newmothers, we're also bringing
them to the wider world.
Community is one of the motherpowers.
Also ritual self-tending, whichis a different way to think of
(25:41):
self-care, embodiment, earthconnection, inner knowing and
creativity, and so these arekind of the tools and resources
that I support mothers to pullon and grow capacity around, and
they already are, because theyseem to be a really like an
almost inherent part of ourtransition to motherhood for so
(26:02):
many of us.
So community I mean this is aquestion that I'm grappling with
ongoingly in my own lifebecause we live in a really
hyper individualistic society,and the reason why community is
a mother power is that, you know, among these kind of traits of
adult development that we kindof grow in motherhood is this
(26:25):
ability to be moreinterdependent.
And because we have to be right, because all of a sudden, like
you talked about you know,especially with your first child
, you go from being thisautonomous human being to all of
a sudden having another littleperson that you are fully you
know being this autonomous humanbeing, to all of a sudden
having another little personthat you are fully, you know,
interdependent with, and so weget this kind of crash course in
(26:47):
what it is to show up foranother person.
And so I think there's a lot ofpotential there when it comes
to our ability to buildcommunity.
And then this horrible ironythat I think like community, and
then this horrible irony that Ithink like so many of us are
stretched thin in motherhoodthese days and like the last
thing we have the kind of youknow, spoons to do those are
(27:09):
spot to do is to reach out andsay, hey, do you want to go for
coffee?
Or like, meet up with someone,or make someone a batch of your
homemade granola and take itover, right, but I don't know if
there's a hack for this.
Like I feel like we need to,kind of, you know, start showing
up in our own way, in the waythat we would want to receive
(27:29):
support and have thoseconversations with the people
around us about reciprocity.
I think asking for help is ahuge community building move,
and it's one that so many of usare uncomfortable with.
But I always like to thinkabout, and share this with the
mothers that I work with, thateveryone that I know loves to
(27:51):
help other people.
Like that is a source of greatmeaning in our lives, and so you
know we can think of our askfor help as a gift to the other
person, as a as an opportunityfor them to help and to know
that they're being of assistance.
This is my new trick Whenever Ioffer help to someone, rather
than saying like, hey, let meknow if you need anything, I'll
(28:13):
say if you would let me bringover dinner tomorrow night, you
would make me so happy.
I would love to do that for you, would you?
Let me do that for you, andit's so different than you know.
Let me know if you needanything.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I love that so much.
That is such a beautiful thingbecause you're right, we do want
to help and I feel like sooften we have.
You know, everybody comes overafter baby is born and
everybody's so excited.
But if you ask them to actuallydo something, like they're
going to be quick to do it right, like they're like, yeah, sure,
you need your laundry done.
(28:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'll take care ofthat.
You know, like the excitementis there.
I think we've just forgotten howto take care of mothers.
And here we are the generationhaving babies and supporting
women and families in havingbabies, and expanding our
communities with this.
And we have to make that shiftand that change so that our
(29:13):
children can experience that somuch more better, so much more
beautifully than we had theopportunity to.
So you know, know that when youare asking for that help and
this is something that hashelped me tremendously is
knowing that I am training thisnext generation to be able to
feel comfortable doing the exactsame or be in a position where
(29:36):
maybe they don't have to ask forhelp because it's already
provided, because we remembered,because we remembered.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Oh yes, let's send that one up as a big hope for
the future.
Definitely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I feel like I can sit here and have a conversation
with you forever.
I'm just like sitting in hereand going over our conversation
in our head and I feel likethere's such a calm presence to
you and I just want toacknowledge that for one and two
, to really invite people toyour space.
(30:13):
Do you have anything coming up?
Do you have?
Where can people find you andyour books and everything that
you, you, have got to share?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, thank you so much.
That's really sweet to hear.
I have a website,jessieheraldcom, and lots of
kind of information blogs, apodcast on there called the
Becoming Podcast, and a monthlynewsletter that I send out
called Imaginalia, for anyonegoing through any kind of life
transition.
And you mentioned earlier Ihave a couple of programs.
(30:43):
So Mothershift is a supportprogram, three months long
program for new mamas, and Ialso have the Village, which is
a six months long matricenceapprenticeship program for
perinatal professionals.
So that's that, and then I hangout on Instagram for the most
part.
So if you're on the gram, headover and visit me over there.
Yeah, thank you so much.
(31:05):
Oh, my book, right?
Yes, most important thing, yes,my book is mother shift,
reclaiming motherhood as a riteof passage, and it is available
anywhere books are sold.
Do do us a favor and like, askfor it at your local bookstore
and maybe avoid the big aretailer.
(31:26):
Yeah, I feel that one.
Yeah, so I would love it ifpeople are interested in what I
have to say.
There's lots and lots more inthe book, so matriarch sense.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I'm gonna say I.
I am going to practice thisword after we hang up, but I
wanted to say it correctly onthe show for the first time.
I love this.
Thank you so much forwitnessing me and my humanness
and for everybody else who islistening in and also just
sharing such this, thisbeautiful, beautiful story, and
(32:01):
almost I feel like rewriting thepostpartum experience as we
know it.
So thank you for that.
We need that.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for the
amazing work that you weredoing as well so important
Thanks thanks so much for beinga part of this crucial
conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I know you're dedicated to advancing
postpartum care and if you'reready to dig deeper, come join
us on our newsletter, where Ishare exclusive insights,
resources and the latest toolsto help you make a lasting
impact on postpartum health.
Sign up at postpartumu theletter ucom which is in the show
notes, and if you found today'sepisode valuable, please leave
(32:48):
a review to help us reach moreproviders like you.
Together, we're building afuture where mothers are fully
supported and thriving.
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