June 28, 2021 • 25 mins
We talk to Posture Ellie, who is a Postural Alignment Therapist trained in The Egoscue Method (and a 200hr Yoga Teacher). She works with her clients (of all ages and with all sorts of conditions) to improve their posture and restore a greater range of movement through each joint in the body.
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Episode Transcript
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James Crow (00:00):
H ey everybody, its James. Thanks so much for coming
(00:02):
back to the Posture Starspodcast. Today we're gonna be
speaking to Posture Ellie, whois a postural alignment
therapist trained in the Egoscuemethod and also a 200 hour yoga
teacher. She works with clientsof all ages and all sorts of
conditions to improve theirposture and restore a greater
range of movement through eachjoint in the body. Hello, Ellie,
(00:24):
thanks so much for coming ontoday. You're in the UK like
myself? Are you down Southsomewhere?
Posture Ellie (00:29):
Well, depends on what you call down south. But
for you probably. I'm inWorcester, which is kind of half
an hour further south inBirmingham.
James Crow (00:38):
I know the place I was on the chair training day,
not too far from there in Yatewith the Ergochair training
people, well worth going on.
They're a really, really nicebunch if you're interested in
chairs. And let's face it, likemy listeners, no one is. So I've
asked you to come on, becauseI've seen you a lot on Instagram
at Posture Ellie and I knowyou've got a great website as
(01:00):
well, which has evolved quite alot over the last few months I
can see. And you work intenselywith posture?
Posture Ellie (01:09):
I work intensely with posture, I think intensely
about posture, I'm alwaysthinking about posture. But
yeah, it is pretty much my breadand butter, helping people with
their posture.
James Crow (01:21):
It is the curse of the posture work isn't it, that
whenever you see somebody you'rejust thinking, hmmmm!
Posture Ellie (01:27):
Yes, exactly. I know so many of my clients are
like that as well, you startpointing out the things with
them in their appointment andthey're like, "Now that you've
told me I can't unsee it, I justsee it in everybody" and I'm
like "Welcome to my world!"
James Crow (01:43):
Do you do a thing after a couple of sessions, with
my clients, I sort of take themto one side and I say "Now that
you can see it in other people,just don't nag anybody because
they won't thank you for it.
Don't nag your partner becausethey won't have had sessions and
they will be able to change it!"
Posture Ellie (01:57):
Yeah, they're like, "I just don't understand
why people don't do anythingabout it." And you just think
when their time is ready, theywill come, they will find it
when they are ready to find it.
And then they will come and findtheir way to me.
James Crow (02:10):
And to be fair, I think more and more that's going
to be happening in the nearfuture because loads of people
have been working from home.
There's also a big switchtowards well-being as well,
which is fantastic. And I thinkposture is going to become much
more in people's thinking,particularly as we move towards,
in social media, people being inview more, people being judged
(02:30):
more. I think they're going toworry about their posture. I
don't know whether that's a goodthing or a bad thing. Whether
whether it's a good thing, thatthey're made more aware of it or
a bad thing that it's becomemore visual.
Posture Ellie (02:42):
I mean, my opinion on that would be that
the aesthetics of it are not apositive thing. I don't do this
for myself, and I don't sort ofwork with my clients. From my
perspective at all, for thisoutcome of how you look, it is
an outcome of how you feel, howyou move, how much energy you
have, the level, you know, beingpain, free living into old age,
(03:06):
this is nothing aboutaesthetics. For me, it is about
how you feel within your body.
So, you know, it's good, butit's coming more into, I guess,
common rhetoric and people areunderstanding perhaps a little
bit more about what posture isand what it isn't. But I don't
like the fact that it might bemaking people feel more self
conscious, because it's nothingabout that, you know, it's it's
about trying to get peoplefeeling good, not not looking
(03:28):
good and looking good is abyproduct of good posture, but
it's certainly not the goal forgood posture. Not from my
perspective anyway.
James Crow (03:37):
Yeah, I'm totally with you. When I when I first
started working in this in thisarea, what I was trying to think
how can I sell this to peopleand I was really clear that it
would improve their appearance.
And then after a while, I kindof cut a lot of that out where
I've seen it in what I'm saying.
Because well also you know, youcan improve your posture
immensely and still haveostensibly, on the outside, what
(04:01):
would look to someone else likenot good posture. You know, if
you if you're born with with anissue, that you're never going
to be fully upright, then that'sthe case, you know?
Posture Ellie (04:10):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that I think very few
people are actually born withpostural defects or genetic
issues. But I think you get intomurky waters where people have
no memory of a time before themhaving bad posture. So they
attribute their bad posture,sorry, their bad posture to
their genetics, but actually,it's the way that they were
(04:32):
born. It's the way that theywere kept in a chair for too
long as a baby, it's the waythey weren't given enough time
crawling. And all of thesethings will then dictate
someone's early childhoodposture, but actually that's not
genetics, that's environmentaland it can be changed. Because
most people it is environmental.
There are a few people that dohave things that are "wrong with
them" when they are born, butmost people it's absolutely
(04:56):
environmental and it can bechanged, which is Empowering and
wonderful, but can maybe makepeople a little bit defensive
because the narrative that theyhave told themselves or that
other people have told themtheir whole lives is actually,
in my opinion, sometimes quitewrong. But you know, they do
have the power to changesomething, if they do the right
things in order to do it.
James Crow (05:18):
I have it the same with some of my clients that
they've sort of said, "Oh, well,you know, life is life has made
me into this shape and itslifestyle." And then suddenly,
they realise that they don'thave to accept that and that
they can make positive change.
And it's like a veil's liftedfrom them. And they think "Oh,
gosh, I can actually makeimprovements in myself, and it
doesn't have to be other peopledoing it 'to or at' me." Do you
(05:38):
see it that way?
Posture Ellie (05:41):
Yes, I completely hear that. And that's why, for
me, so many clients, I think,find me in the end. I am
admittedly, I think, a kind oflast chance saloon for lots of
people. They've done that roundof the surgeons and the physios
and the massage and the osteo,and all that kind of stuff. And
they haven't found the solutionthat they're looking for. And
(06:04):
the people that - it's not aquestion of not gelling with me,
but the people that we want thesame things out of this process,
I guess, is the people that wantto put that power and work back
into their hands. They're sickof spending money on people that
are doing something to them,which changes things
temporarily. But it doesn'tchange the movement patterns
(06:24):
that have caused that in thefirst place. They want to take
charge of their movementpatterns. And from my
perspective, I don't want myclients seeing me forever. I
have wonderful, lovely clients,lots of them, I will count as
friends. But I see it as a signof not succeeding, if they are
dependent on me regularly. Iwant it to be that they are like
my fledglings, and I'm, youknow, they have a few sessions,
(06:45):
they start understanding what'sgoing on, and then they fly
free. And then they have thatpower to look after themselves
for the rest of their lives.
That's very much what I'm allabout.
James Crow (06:53):
Yeah, totally, I'm with you on that. As I say in my
first session, my job is to makemyself redundant. But then I put
in a caveat and say it'd be niceto see you four times a year
afterwards. And if life is somuch better just give me 2% of
all future earnings. Know howmany times that's happened?
(07:13):
Never, never!
Posture Ellie (07:16):
Yeah, it's one of those things where what I want
for my clients is not for themto be pain free, which might
sound weird. My goal with myclients is not for them to be
pain free. My goal for myclients is their body to be as
functional as it can be. So youcan be pain free. But bordering
(07:36):
on that edge of it just takesone wrong move, it takes one
fall in the street, it takes onebending over in the shower, and
you know, your back going orsomething like that. I say that
because that always tends to besomething that comes up quite a
lot with my clients. I'm notaiming to get my clients pain
free, I'm aiming to get them asfunctional as they can be. So
this doesn't ever end, not in away of I want to have sessions
(07:59):
with them every week for therest of their lives. But you
becoming pain free isn't the endgoal, that's part of the
process. The process ismaintaining that function for
the rest of your life. So toyour point, there is an argument
for saying come back four timesa year because it is like seeing
a personal trainer, you've justgot to keep mixing it up,
adapting the exercises the bodyand making sure that your body
(08:20):
hasn't changed in another way.
You know, your posture sixmonths ago will be different to
your posture now and you'redifferent with your posture in
another six months, eithernegatively or positively. You
might be doing really good workand improving things. Or you
could becoming more and moresedentary in a kind of
compensatory spiral of pain andproblems that things are getting
worse. But posture is verydynamic.
James Crow (08:40):
Totally yes, posture is a process rather than a
position. Anyone can adopt animproved position and say,
"Look, my posture is better."But how are they going to empty
the dishwasher with thatposition, or take the beans off
the top shelf? Well, I thinkwe're into the realm of my very
first question.
Posture Ellie (08:56):
I've answered, everything already!
James Crow (08:58):
No, it's perfect. So here we go. What is posture?
Posture Ellie (09:02):
So I was thinking about this. And it's so hard, I
think, for me to put my fingeron something and it's almost
easier to say what postureisn't. Posture is not pulling
your shoulders back and sittingup straight, that is not
posture. Posture is not a yogapose. Posture is a result of
(09:23):
your movement patterns. And youhave different postures for
different situations. You have asitting posture, standing
posture, walking posture, youknow, everything you do is a
posture, but the way in whichyou perform that movement is a
result of how functional themuscles in your body are. So
(09:44):
there is no good thing as a goodposture. It is all the work that
you're doing outside of theactivities that you do, that
will enable your body to holditself in this strength
alignment balance with "goodposture", but without you even
thinking about it. So it's not,it's just not a conscious thing
(10:05):
that you do, it is a result ofeverything else that you were
doing with your body. And, youknow, the fact of the matter is,
is that not even 200 years ago,the world well, not even 30
years ago, 10 years ago, theworld was very different place.
But in the last 250 years, theworld has changed beyond
recognition, you know, ourprimal human bodies that are
(10:26):
animalistic bodies that are keptfit and healthy through constant
varied movement, challenge,stress, worry, you know,
physical stress, all that sortof stuff. That's how the human
body keeps itself healthy. Andmovement is just being stripped
away from us year on year onyear because of advancements in
technology. So it is a result ofmovement patterns, and people
(10:47):
are getting increasingly badposture. Because the environment
that we live in is so noxiouswhen it comes to lack of
movement. Childhood development,schooling, universities, we are
just sat in a chair from themoment we are four years old,
and then we wonder why we can'tdo anything else but sit in
chairs comfortably. And itsenvironment. Sorry, impassioned
(11:08):
rant there!
James Crow (11:09):
No, I'm with you, I'm as as passionate about it,
as well. It's incredible that somuch of the things that we buy,
that are supposed to improve ourquality of life are actually
having a negative effect on ourlife. Apart from the washing
machine!
Posture Ellie (11:24):
Yeah, I would agree. I would definitely agree
with that, as well.
James Crow (11:27):
Nowadays people are becoming so much more sedentary.
I think it's overstated, thatsitting is the new smoking. But
sitting constantly, certainlyis, it's a terrible, terrible
way to spend your time.
Posture Ellie (11:39):
And on paper, in principle, there is nothing
wrong with sitting, sitting isno more negative for you than
any other position that you dofor 8, 10, 12 hours of the day.
That's what it comes down to.
You could be stretching yourhips for 12 hours, that wouldn't
be good. You could be sittingsitting in a squat for 12 hours,
that wouldn't be good. You couldbe walking for 12 hours, that
(12:00):
wouldn't be good. You know, it'snot sitting that's the problem.
It's anything that we do forlong periods of time. So one of
the things I think is really,people are kind of losing that
disconnect between, I don'tknow. They sit all day. And then
they try and take these wonky,stiff compensating bodies to
these aggressive forms of highintensity exercise, that their
(12:24):
bodies are frankly not capableof doing. It's like taking the
kind of battered up, you know,1960s beetle or something to an
elite marathon or something.
It's just people's bodies arenot fit for the purposes in
which they're trying to use themfor. Because they are being
told, sitting is the newsmoking. You have to go and do
(12:48):
this exercise and all your freespare time and like get your
heart rate going and all thisstuff. And when I see people
running, like probably 96% ofpeople that I see running down
the street, I'm just hands overeyes clawing at my face, like
what is happening. How does thisperson think it's a good idea?
You can see it in their feet, inthe movement of their hips,
(13:08):
their pelvis, the roundingforward of the shoulders, often
rotation. We are trying tobatter our bodies to be healthy.
And actually it needs to bestripped way, way, way back. And
high intensity exercise for mostpeople does not suit them,
layered on top of theirsedentary lifestyle that they're
leading. Sedentary lifestyleneeds a gentle approach to
(13:28):
corrective exercises to get thebuilding blocks of movement in
place before that body is thenready to do the crazy things
that they are trying to do withit.
James Crow (13:37):
Yeah, and everybody is at the moment just jumping
into the crazy stuff after we'rejust coming out of sort of
lockdown periods at the moment.
The physio clinics, I work outat the moment, I've got people
queuing outside who've been satdown for a year to a year and a
half. And then suddenly they'vethey've gone to the gym and
thrown themselves at it, as ifsuddenly, within one week,
they're going to be Superman andor Superman. So how do you help
(13:58):
people with with their posturethen Ellie?
Posture Ellie (14:02):
So the way that I help people with their posture
is through corrective exercisesthat are suitable for them. So
one of the things I get askedwhen I'm doing, I want to say
media, but then if I say that,that sounds bad. But if I do a
magazine article, and they askor comment or something, they
say, "What's the best exercise,you know, give us an exercise
(14:23):
that we could give to people?"And the answer is there is no
universal exercise that suitseverybody because it completely
boils down to your owncompensations and dysfunctions.
So for some people, they mightnot be able to move their
shoulders, that is theirdysfunction. For other people.
They might be so stiff in theirankles, that's their
dysfunction. Other people, theycan't flex their hips, that's
(14:46):
their dysfunction. So dependingon the body in front of you, the
way in which I prescribe theexercises is very, very
different. And obviously it willcome down to confidence levels,
mobility levels, severity ofpain where you're starting off
from. But the answer is always aseries of corrective exercises
suited to that person that isworking on expanding that
(15:09):
person's range of movement atthe joints in their body at a
pace that they can handle. Somost people that come and see me
will not be able to do themassively crazy difficult
exercises that I have within mysoftware that I don't even like
doing myself. Because theychallenge me too much. Most
people it's going to be, like Imentioned earlier, very basic
building blocks. Let's justreduce some of that pelvic
(15:31):
rotation, let's reduce some ofthat thoracic rotation, let's
get your hips rotating. Let'ssee how poorly your feet move.
Which, you know, is somethingthat I'm constantly dealing
with, is how dysfunctionalpeople are on their feet. And I
feel very passionately aboutfeet. But the way in which I
help people is giving peoplethis pathway towards moving in a
(15:52):
better way, which ultimately, asa byproduct, will create less
and less pain as time goes on.
So it's not a magic, you know,sort of magic cure. It's not a
magic pill, it's not going tohappen overnight. But slowly but
surely, we unwind these years,decades of movement problems,
and start sort of re patentinghow that person wants to move.
And I'm not focusing on theirpain, because the area of the
(16:14):
body that hurts is most oftenthe area of the body that is
bearing too much load oroverworking, it's compensating.
The area that hurts doesn't tellme anything helpful. Other than
that's why that person has cometo me. I don't care about the
knee pain, I don't care aboutthe hip pain. What I care about
is what else do we need to wakeup in the body that will take
(16:34):
that knee pain down or take thathip pain down? So yeah, when I'm
with this, it's people are kindof motivated to come to me
because they're in pain. Butlike I said earlier, it's about
movement and getting peoplemoving better. And that's what
the corrective exercises do.
James Crow (16:49):
You're the first person who said to me that you
wake stuff up in people. And mybrain honed in on that and
thought "Nobody's ever said thatbefore!" So can you tell me a
bit more about that?
Posture Ellie (17:01):
So as an example, one of the most common
dysfunctions that I'm dealingwith is an inability of the hips
to flex within the hip socket.
So the iliopsoas muscle, theprimary hip flexor, is the
muscle that's supposed to bringthe knee towards the torso, you
know, when we're walking,lifting the leg, most people are
so abdominal dominant, so quaddominant, because of various
(17:26):
exercise modalities that tellthem to aggressively squeeze
their core and tuck their pelvisunder. Again, another rant I
could talk about. So because ofthis kind of locking on within
that sort of core region, theylose the ability to wake up
their hips. So for most peoplethat I see, I would go so far as
to say that the underlying issueis that their hips don't work
(17:48):
properly. That's really what itboils down to, for most people.
And when I say about wakingstuff up, I have the person in
front of me on zoom. And I'll besaying, "Where do you feel this,
what muscle is waking up?" We'retrying to wake up. I know, they
should be feeling this at thefront of the hip, a kind of deep
burn within the hip socket, thattells me that that person is
woke up their their iliopsoas.
(18:11):
And so I say where do you feelit and they're like, "Oh, my
quads, my abs, my glutes," andI'm thinking "this person is
compensating, they're notfeeling it in the right place.
This is one of the reasons whythey have their pain." And then
when they hit that spot, when wegive them the right exercise, I
just carry on a bit longer, andthey get that burn, deep in the
hips because I'll say to them,"when this happens, you're gonna
(18:31):
know that it's happening becauseyou're gonna get a really strong
cramp in your hip, because itkicked into play for the first
time in 20 30 40 years." Andthen it happens. And they're
like, "Oh, you know, all of thistime, I thought my legs were
working as they should dobecause I could feel that I have
muscles there, but the wrongmuscles were doing the job." So
(18:52):
when I say wake stuff up, it isabout waking up the
dysfunctional stuff that hasfallen asleep, that doesn't hurt
because it's fallen asleep, butthe other stuff around it or not
even close to it, far away, mayhurt, because they're taking a
load, due to that dysfunction.
James Crow (19:08):
Sometimes when I go to the gym, I see people who are
so front dominated, and they'realmost curled over like a
ladybird or a pill bug.
Posture Ellie (19:18):
If your whole goal is to look like that, you
are bypassing function, you aretoo focused on having big pecs
and big biceps and strong abs,that you're forgetting about
that kind of nuance of movementthat is available to you at ev
ry joint, which if you focuseon that as much as you did the
ind of the big superficial mucle players that everyone can
(19:41):
ee. If you focused on all the oher kind of unsexy stuff that's
too deep for you to see and dosn't give you that aesthetic
oal, you will have this wholebody balance. But unfortunat
ly, I think too much in the gymn the fitness world is about
ow you look. It's not about howou move or how you feel. It's j
st, again, it comes bacto aesthetics. That's all wr
James Crow (19:59):
Okay. So You've told us what you think posture is and
how you work with posture. Andthen in the midst of how you
work with posture, you'dmentioned that no one specific
exercises is really applicableor suitable to all people, which
kind of stymmies me for my thirdquestion, which is always, if
you were to give our listenersone piece of advice, right now,
(20:20):
what would that be?
Posture Ellie (20:22):
I mean, I can give advice. I'm not going to
give an exercise, but I can giveadvice. I could give advice all
day. I think if I was going togive people one piece of advice,
it would be listen to your body,for goodness sake, listen to
your body. If you are trying todo something, and it hurts you,
you are extremely lucky that youare able to receive that message
(20:44):
from your body is your body'sway of saying, Please stop doing
this. I'm in danger, I need youto stop. And if you carry on,
I'm going to say runners becauseit my experience my runners and
my most kind of belligerentclients who won't stop running.
But if you are continuing to dosomething that causes you pain,
you are going to feel worse,like this should be so simple.
(21:05):
But in a world of no pain, nogain, this is probably the
hardest thing I have to getacross to my clients. It's like
you gritting your teeth, holdingyour breath, squeezing all that
tension. And fighting throughpain is not the way out. The way
out is through teaching breath,relaxation of the neck or
(21:25):
wherever it is the person'sholding tension. The way out is
through teaching your body to bemore comfortable and relaxed, so
that we can turn off this flightor fight mode. And we can
actually start digging into thebits of your body that don't
work. Your body is gritting itsteeth and fighting through
something. You are just movingyourself towards injury, you
know, moving, working,continuing to push through pain
will never get you out of pain.
And like I said, you would notthink that that would have to be
(21:48):
something I would need to say. Ineed to hit that home, every
class that I do, I hit that homebecause people don't get it.
They think that every singleother person in the class is
experiencing that low level necktension, or that shoulder pain
or that knee pain. And I don'thave any pain anywhere in my
body. That's what being painfree is. Being pain free, is not
having some tension in yourbody, because that is on that
(22:11):
spectrum of your body is tellingyou something so please stop
doing that thing. Don't fightthrough pain, listen to your
body and do more of the thingsthat make you feel good
afterwards. Follow that body'sintuition.
James Crow (22:24):
You've mentioned twice now runners, I live right
next to a country park in in abig urban area. And we see a lot
of runners there. And when youmentioned fight or flight, you
reminded me of thatstartle-pattern response with
people's shoulders raising andthe neck tightening. And so many
of the runners I see are in thatfight or flight startle pattern
as they run. And it just can'tbe comfortable. And I look at
(22:48):
them and I turn to my my longsuffering wife. And I say, see
that person, they're 'doing'running, they're not having a
run, they're not enjoying a run,they're 'doing' running. And you
can see the displeasure on theirfaces. It's some form of
self-flagellation or punishment.
I've got myself into thisphysical state. And unless I
punish myself, I can't get outof it.
Posture Ellie (23:11):
Yeah. And I think, you know, I completely
get it. Because running isreally pleasurable. You know,
it's very meditative. I wouldnever do more than a half
marathon. But I've done a halfmarathon before. And I get it,
that kind of high that you getwhen you're in that flow state,
and everything's knocked out.
And that's wonderful. But I justthink that, like you said, it's
it's kind of self punishment, Ithink it's because we're fed
(23:31):
this thing of, if it's not hard,you're not doing it properly,
you know. It shouldn't be thathaving run, going for run is a
struggle, or that you have pain.
It should be that it is apleasurable, relaxed, fluid
experience. And then, you know,they get themselves into these
spirals where they're justlooking at what orthotics they
(23:53):
can put in their shoes, howfluffy their shoes can be, let's
put a knee brace on. All ofthese things are just Band Aid
solutions to a global problem.
You know, if your footscollapsing in, it's not just
your foot, it's how your hipsare interacting with your foot
is what the shoulders are doingabove that. And if only they
would take a step back, leavethe running for few months do
this type of work set their bodyup for success and efficiency
(24:15):
and function. And then theirrunning would feel completely,
completely different. But Icompletely agree with you. I see
sometimes people just they lookpained, they just look, it
doesn't look like that kind ofeasy flowing run that you see
when you see that some of thereally ultra marathon runners,
that just make it look like adance. Don't they look
incredible?
James Crow (24:34):
Yeah. And we can't be all as amazing as them but we
can certainly enjoy exerciserather than making it a
punishment or damaging to us.
Posture Ellie (24:41):
Exactly, exactly.
James Crow (24:43):
Okay, well that's all fantastic advice. And I'm
sure our listeners I've gotloads out of that. What do they
do if they want to find you,where are you?
Posture Ellie (24:52):
They can get in touch with me through my
website, www.posture-ellie.comor my Instagram or my Youtube
@posture.ellie, both of thoseplatforms, have got loads of
videos and stuff that people canwatch and interact with. And if
they like what they see and itresonates with them, then do
check out my website and you canhave a look at that kind of
(25:14):
process about becoming a one toone client of mine if you're
interested.
James Crow (25:17):
There you go, folks.
So thanks so much for coming on,Ellie. It's been a pleasure to
speak to you. You've maintaineda really nice open upright
posture as we've talked throughthe whole process!
Posture Ellie (25:29):
I hadn't noticed it's so natural for me now,
James. I'm joking! Thank you somuch for having me, James. It's
been great coming on.
H ey everybody, its James. Thanks so much for coming
(00:02):
back to the Posture Starspodcast. Today we're gonna be
speaking to Posture Ellie, whois a postural alignment
therapist trained in the Egoscuemethod and also a 200 hour yoga
teacher. She works with clientsof all ages and all sorts of
conditions to improve theirposture and restore a greater
range of movement through eachjoint in the body. Hello, Ellie,
(00:24):
thanks so much for coming ontoday. You're in the UK like
myself? Are you down Southsomewhere?
Posture Ellie (00:29):
Well, depends on what you call down south. But
for you probably. I'm inWorcester, which is kind of half
an hour further south inBirmingham.
James Crow (00:38):
I know the place I was on the chair training day,
not too far from there in Yatewith the Ergochair training
people, well worth going on.
They're a really, really nicebunch if you're interested in
chairs. And let's face it, likemy listeners, no one is. So I've
asked you to come on, becauseI've seen you a lot on Instagram
at Posture Ellie and I knowyou've got a great website as
(01:00):
well, which has evolved quite alot over the last few months I
can see. And you work intenselywith posture?
Posture Ellie (01:09):
I work intensely with posture, I think intensely
about posture, I'm alwaysthinking about posture. But
yeah, it is pretty much my breadand butter, helping people with
their posture.
James Crow (01:21):
It is the curse of the posture work isn't it, that
whenever you see somebody you'rejust thinking, hmmmm!
Posture Ellie (01:27):
Yes, exactly. I know so many of my clients are
like that as well, you startpointing out the things with
them in their appointment andthey're like, "Now that you've
told me I can't unsee it, I justsee it in everybody" and I'm
like "Welcome to my world!"
James Crow (01:43):
Do you do a thing after a couple of sessions, with
my clients, I sort of take themto one side and I say "Now that
you can see it in other people,just don't nag anybody because
they won't thank you for it.
Don't nag your partner becausethey won't have had sessions and
they will be able to change it!"
Posture Ellie (01:57):
Yeah, they're like, "I just don't understand
why people don't do anythingabout it." And you just think
when their time is ready, theywill come, they will find it
when they are ready to find it.
And then they will come and findtheir way to me.
James Crow (02:10):
And to be fair, I think more and more that's going
to be happening in the nearfuture because loads of people
have been working from home.
There's also a big switchtowards well-being as well,
which is fantastic. And I thinkposture is going to become much
more in people's thinking,particularly as we move towards,
in social media, people being inview more, people being judged
(02:30):
more. I think they're going toworry about their posture. I
don't know whether that's a goodthing or a bad thing. Whether
whether it's a good thing, thatthey're made more aware of it or
a bad thing that it's becomemore visual.
Posture Ellie (02:42):
I mean, my opinion on that would be that
the aesthetics of it are not apositive thing. I don't do this
for myself, and I don't sort ofwork with my clients. From my
perspective at all, for thisoutcome of how you look, it is
an outcome of how you feel, howyou move, how much energy you
have, the level, you know, beingpain, free living into old age,
(03:06):
this is nothing aboutaesthetics. For me, it is about
how you feel within your body.
So, you know, it's good, butit's coming more into, I guess,
common rhetoric and people areunderstanding perhaps a little
bit more about what posture isand what it isn't. But I don't
like the fact that it might bemaking people feel more self
conscious, because it's nothingabout that, you know, it's it's
about trying to get peoplefeeling good, not not looking
(03:28):
good and looking good is abyproduct of good posture, but
it's certainly not the goal forgood posture. Not from my
perspective anyway.
James Crow (03:37):
Yeah, I'm totally with you. When I when I first
started working in this in thisarea, what I was trying to think
how can I sell this to peopleand I was really clear that it
would improve their appearance.
And then after a while, I kindof cut a lot of that out where
I've seen it in what I'm saying.
Because well also you know, youcan improve your posture
immensely and still haveostensibly, on the outside, what
(04:01):
would look to someone else likenot good posture. You know, if
you if you're born with with anissue, that you're never going
to be fully upright, then that'sthe case, you know?
Posture Ellie (04:10):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that I think very few
people are actually born withpostural defects or genetic
issues. But I think you get intomurky waters where people have
no memory of a time before themhaving bad posture. So they
attribute their bad posture,sorry, their bad posture to
their genetics, but actually,it's the way that they were
(04:32):
born. It's the way that theywere kept in a chair for too
long as a baby, it's the waythey weren't given enough time
crawling. And all of thesethings will then dictate
someone's early childhoodposture, but actually that's not
genetics, that's environmentaland it can be changed. Because
most people it is environmental.
There are a few people that dohave things that are "wrong with
them" when they are born, butmost people it's absolutely
(04:56):
environmental and it can bechanged, which is Empowering and
wonderful, but can maybe makepeople a little bit defensive
because the narrative that theyhave told themselves or that
other people have told themtheir whole lives is actually,
in my opinion, sometimes quitewrong. But you know, they do
have the power to changesomething, if they do the right
things in order to do it.
James Crow (05:18):
I have it the same with some of my clients that
they've sort of said, "Oh, well,you know, life is life has made
me into this shape and itslifestyle." And then suddenly,
they realise that they don'thave to accept that and that
they can make positive change.
And it's like a veil's liftedfrom them. And they think "Oh,
gosh, I can actually makeimprovements in myself, and it
doesn't have to be other peopledoing it 'to or at' me." Do you
(05:38):
see it that way?
Posture Ellie (05:41):
Yes, I completely hear that. And that's why, for
me, so many clients, I think,find me in the end. I am
admittedly, I think, a kind oflast chance saloon for lots of
people. They've done that roundof the surgeons and the physios
and the massage and the osteo,and all that kind of stuff. And
they haven't found the solutionthat they're looking for. And
(06:04):
the people that - it's not aquestion of not gelling with me,
but the people that we want thesame things out of this process,
I guess, is the people that wantto put that power and work back
into their hands. They're sickof spending money on people that
are doing something to them,which changes things
temporarily. But it doesn'tchange the movement patterns
(06:24):
that have caused that in thefirst place. They want to take
charge of their movementpatterns. And from my
perspective, I don't want myclients seeing me forever. I
have wonderful, lovely clients,lots of them, I will count as
friends. But I see it as a signof not succeeding, if they are
dependent on me regularly. Iwant it to be that they are like
my fledglings, and I'm, youknow, they have a few sessions,
(06:45):
they start understanding what'sgoing on, and then they fly
free. And then they have thatpower to look after themselves
for the rest of their lives.
That's very much what I'm allabout.
James Crow (06:53):
Yeah, totally, I'm with you on that. As I say in my
first session, my job is to makemyself redundant. But then I put
in a caveat and say it'd be niceto see you four times a year
afterwards. And if life is somuch better just give me 2% of
all future earnings. Know howmany times that's happened?
(07:13):
Never, never!
Posture Ellie (07:16):
Yeah, it's one of those things where what I want
for my clients is not for themto be pain free, which might
sound weird. My goal with myclients is not for them to be
pain free. My goal for myclients is their body to be as
functional as it can be. So youcan be pain free. But bordering
(07:36):
on that edge of it just takesone wrong move, it takes one
fall in the street, it takes onebending over in the shower, and
you know, your back going orsomething like that. I say that
because that always tends to besomething that comes up quite a
lot with my clients. I'm notaiming to get my clients pain
free, I'm aiming to get them asfunctional as they can be. So
this doesn't ever end, not in away of I want to have sessions
(07:59):
with them every week for therest of their lives. But you
becoming pain free isn't the endgoal, that's part of the
process. The process ismaintaining that function for
the rest of your life. So toyour point, there is an argument
for saying come back four timesa year because it is like seeing
a personal trainer, you've justgot to keep mixing it up,
adapting the exercises the bodyand making sure that your body
(08:20):
hasn't changed in another way.
You know, your posture sixmonths ago will be different to
your posture now and you'redifferent with your posture in
another six months, eithernegatively or positively. You
might be doing really good workand improving things. Or you
could becoming more and moresedentary in a kind of
compensatory spiral of pain andproblems that things are getting
worse. But posture is verydynamic.
James Crow (08:40):
Totally yes, posture is a process rather than a
position. Anyone can adopt animproved position and say,
"Look, my posture is better."But how are they going to empty
the dishwasher with thatposition, or take the beans off
the top shelf? Well, I thinkwe're into the realm of my very
first question.
Posture Ellie (08:56):
I've answered, everything already!
James Crow (08:58):
No, it's perfect. So here we go. What is posture?
Posture Ellie (09:02):
So I was thinking about this. And it's so hard, I
think, for me to put my fingeron something and it's almost
easier to say what postureisn't. Posture is not pulling
your shoulders back and sittingup straight, that is not
posture. Posture is not a yogapose. Posture is a result of
(09:23):
your movement patterns. And youhave different postures for
different situations. You have asitting posture, standing
posture, walking posture, youknow, everything you do is a
posture, but the way in whichyou perform that movement is a
result of how functional themuscles in your body are. So
(09:44):
there is no good thing as a goodposture. It is all the work that
you're doing outside of theactivities that you do, that
will enable your body to holditself in this strength
alignment balance with "goodposture", but without you even
thinking about it. So it's not,it's just not a conscious thing
(10:05):
that you do, it is a result ofeverything else that you were
doing with your body. And, youknow, the fact of the matter is,
is that not even 200 years ago,the world well, not even 30
years ago, 10 years ago, theworld was very different place.
But in the last 250 years, theworld has changed beyond
recognition, you know, ourprimal human bodies that are
(10:26):
animalistic bodies that are keptfit and healthy through constant
varied movement, challenge,stress, worry, you know,
physical stress, all that sortof stuff. That's how the human
body keeps itself healthy. Andmovement is just being stripped
away from us year on year onyear because of advancements in
technology. So it is a result ofmovement patterns, and people
(10:47):
are getting increasingly badposture. Because the environment
that we live in is so noxiouswhen it comes to lack of
movement. Childhood development,schooling, universities, we are
just sat in a chair from themoment we are four years old,
and then we wonder why we can'tdo anything else but sit in
chairs comfortably. And itsenvironment. Sorry, impassioned
(11:08):
rant there!
James Crow (11:09):
No, I'm with you, I'm as as passionate about it,
as well. It's incredible that somuch of the things that we buy,
that are supposed to improve ourquality of life are actually
having a negative effect on ourlife. Apart from the washing
machine!
Posture Ellie (11:24):
Yeah, I would agree. I would definitely agree
with that, as well.
James Crow (11:27):
Nowadays people are becoming so much more sedentary.
I think it's overstated, thatsitting is the new smoking. But
sitting constantly, certainlyis, it's a terrible, terrible
way to spend your time.
Posture Ellie (11:39):
And on paper, in principle, there is nothing
wrong with sitting, sitting isno more negative for you than
any other position that you dofor 8, 10, 12 hours of the day.
That's what it comes down to.
You could be stretching yourhips for 12 hours, that wouldn't
be good. You could be sittingsitting in a squat for 12 hours,
that wouldn't be good. You couldbe walking for 12 hours, that
(12:00):
wouldn't be good. You know, it'snot sitting that's the problem.
It's anything that we do forlong periods of time. So one of
the things I think is really,people are kind of losing that
disconnect between, I don'tknow. They sit all day. And then
they try and take these wonky,stiff compensating bodies to
these aggressive forms of highintensity exercise, that their
(12:24):
bodies are frankly not capableof doing. It's like taking the
kind of battered up, you know,1960s beetle or something to an
elite marathon or something.
It's just people's bodies arenot fit for the purposes in
which they're trying to use themfor. Because they are being
told, sitting is the newsmoking. You have to go and do
(12:48):
this exercise and all your freespare time and like get your
heart rate going and all thisstuff. And when I see people
running, like probably 96% ofpeople that I see running down
the street, I'm just hands overeyes clawing at my face, like
what is happening. How does thisperson think it's a good idea?
You can see it in their feet, inthe movement of their hips,
(13:08):
their pelvis, the roundingforward of the shoulders, often
rotation. We are trying tobatter our bodies to be healthy.
And actually it needs to bestripped way, way, way back. And
high intensity exercise for mostpeople does not suit them,
layered on top of theirsedentary lifestyle that they're
leading. Sedentary lifestyleneeds a gentle approach to
(13:28):
corrective exercises to get thebuilding blocks of movement in
place before that body is thenready to do the crazy things
that they are trying to do withit.
James Crow (13:37):
Yeah, and everybody is at the moment just jumping
into the crazy stuff after we'rejust coming out of sort of
lockdown periods at the moment.
The physio clinics, I work outat the moment, I've got people
queuing outside who've been satdown for a year to a year and a
half. And then suddenly they'vethey've gone to the gym and
thrown themselves at it, as ifsuddenly, within one week,
they're going to be Superman andor Superman. So how do you help
(13:58):
people with with their posturethen Ellie?
Posture Ellie (14:02):
So the way that I help people with their posture
is through corrective exercisesthat are suitable for them. So
one of the things I get askedwhen I'm doing, I want to say
media, but then if I say that,that sounds bad. But if I do a
magazine article, and they askor comment or something, they
say, "What's the best exercise,you know, give us an exercise
(14:23):
that we could give to people?"And the answer is there is no
universal exercise that suitseverybody because it completely
boils down to your owncompensations and dysfunctions.
So for some people, they mightnot be able to move their
shoulders, that is theirdysfunction. For other people.
They might be so stiff in theirankles, that's their
dysfunction. Other people, theycan't flex their hips, that's
(14:46):
their dysfunction. So dependingon the body in front of you, the
way in which I prescribe theexercises is very, very
different. And obviously it willcome down to confidence levels,
mobility levels, severity ofpain where you're starting off
from. But the answer is always aseries of corrective exercises
suited to that person that isworking on expanding that
(15:09):
person's range of movement atthe joints in their body at a
pace that they can handle. Somost people that come and see me
will not be able to do themassively crazy difficult
exercises that I have within mysoftware that I don't even like
doing myself. Because theychallenge me too much. Most
people it's going to be, like Imentioned earlier, very basic
building blocks. Let's justreduce some of that pelvic
(15:31):
rotation, let's reduce some ofthat thoracic rotation, let's
get your hips rotating. Let'ssee how poorly your feet move.
Which, you know, is somethingthat I'm constantly dealing
with, is how dysfunctionalpeople are on their feet. And I
feel very passionately aboutfeet. But the way in which I
help people is giving peoplethis pathway towards moving in a
(15:52):
better way, which ultimately, asa byproduct, will create less
and less pain as time goes on.
So it's not a magic, you know,sort of magic cure. It's not a
magic pill, it's not going tohappen overnight. But slowly but
surely, we unwind these years,decades of movement problems,
and start sort of re patentinghow that person wants to move.
And I'm not focusing on theirpain, because the area of the
(16:14):
body that hurts is most oftenthe area of the body that is
bearing too much load oroverworking, it's compensating.
The area that hurts doesn't tellme anything helpful. Other than
that's why that person has cometo me. I don't care about the
knee pain, I don't care aboutthe hip pain. What I care about
is what else do we need to wakeup in the body that will take
(16:34):
that knee pain down or take thathip pain down? So yeah, when I'm
with this, it's people are kindof motivated to come to me
because they're in pain. Butlike I said earlier, it's about
movement and getting peoplemoving better. And that's what
the corrective exercises do.
James Crow (16:49):
You're the first person who said to me that you
wake stuff up in people. And mybrain honed in on that and
thought "Nobody's ever said thatbefore!" So can you tell me a
bit more about that?
Posture Ellie (17:01):
So as an example, one of the most common
dysfunctions that I'm dealingwith is an inability of the hips
to flex within the hip socket.
So the iliopsoas muscle, theprimary hip flexor, is the
muscle that's supposed to bringthe knee towards the torso, you
know, when we're walking,lifting the leg, most people are
so abdominal dominant, so quaddominant, because of various
(17:26):
exercise modalities that tellthem to aggressively squeeze
their core and tuck their pelvisunder. Again, another rant I
could talk about. So because ofthis kind of locking on within
that sort of core region, theylose the ability to wake up
their hips. So for most peoplethat I see, I would go so far as
to say that the underlying issueis that their hips don't work
(17:48):
properly. That's really what itboils down to, for most people.
And when I say about wakingstuff up, I have the person in
front of me on zoom. And I'll besaying, "Where do you feel this,
what muscle is waking up?" We'retrying to wake up. I know, they
should be feeling this at thefront of the hip, a kind of deep
burn within the hip socket, thattells me that that person is
woke up their their iliopsoas.
(18:11):
And so I say where do you feelit and they're like, "Oh, my
quads, my abs, my glutes," andI'm thinking "this person is
compensating, they're notfeeling it in the right place.
This is one of the reasons whythey have their pain." And then
when they hit that spot, when wegive them the right exercise, I
just carry on a bit longer, andthey get that burn, deep in the
hips because I'll say to them,"when this happens, you're gonna
(18:31):
know that it's happening becauseyou're gonna get a really strong
cramp in your hip, because itkicked into play for the first
time in 20 30 40 years." Andthen it happens. And they're
like, "Oh, you know, all of thistime, I thought my legs were
working as they should dobecause I could feel that I have
muscles there, but the wrongmuscles were doing the job." So
(18:52):
when I say wake stuff up, it isabout waking up the
dysfunctional stuff that hasfallen asleep, that doesn't hurt
because it's fallen asleep, butthe other stuff around it or not
even close to it, far away, mayhurt, because they're taking a
load, due to that dysfunction.
James Crow (19:08):
Sometimes when I go to the gym, I see people who are
so front dominated, and they'realmost curled over like a
ladybird or a pill bug.
Posture Ellie (19:18):
If your whole goal is to look like that, you
are bypassing function, you aretoo focused on having big pecs
and big biceps and strong abs,that you're forgetting about
that kind of nuance of movementthat is available to you at ev
ry joint, which if you focuseon that as much as you did the
ind of the big superficial mucle players that everyone can
(19:41):
ee. If you focused on all the oher kind of unsexy stuff that's
too deep for you to see and dosn't give you that aesthetic
oal, you will have this wholebody balance. But unfortunat
ly, I think too much in the gymn the fitness world is about
ow you look. It's not about howou move or how you feel. It's j
st, again, it comes bacto aesthetics. That's all wr
James Crow (19:59):
Okay. So You've told us what you think posture is and
how you work with posture. Andthen in the midst of how you
work with posture, you'dmentioned that no one specific
exercises is really applicableor suitable to all people, which
kind of stymmies me for my thirdquestion, which is always, if
you were to give our listenersone piece of advice, right now,
(20:20):
what would that be?
Posture Ellie (20:22):
I mean, I can give advice. I'm not going to
give an exercise, but I can giveadvice. I could give advice all
day. I think if I was going togive people one piece of advice,
it would be listen to your body,for goodness sake, listen to
your body. If you are trying todo something, and it hurts you,
you are extremely lucky that youare able to receive that message
(20:44):
from your body is your body'sway of saying, Please stop doing
this. I'm in danger, I need youto stop. And if you carry on,
I'm going to say runners becauseit my experience my runners and
my most kind of belligerentclients who won't stop running.
But if you are continuing to dosomething that causes you pain,
you are going to feel worse,like this should be so simple.
(21:05):
But in a world of no pain, nogain, this is probably the
hardest thing I have to getacross to my clients. It's like
you gritting your teeth, holdingyour breath, squeezing all that
tension. And fighting throughpain is not the way out. The way
out is through teaching breath,relaxation of the neck or
(21:25):
wherever it is the person'sholding tension. The way out is
through teaching your body to bemore comfortable and relaxed, so
that we can turn off this flightor fight mode. And we can
actually start digging into thebits of your body that don't
work. Your body is gritting itsteeth and fighting through
something. You are just movingyourself towards injury, you
know, moving, working,continuing to push through pain
will never get you out of pain.
And like I said, you would notthink that that would have to be
(21:48):
something I would need to say. Ineed to hit that home, every
class that I do, I hit that homebecause people don't get it.
They think that every singleother person in the class is
experiencing that low level necktension, or that shoulder pain
or that knee pain. And I don'thave any pain anywhere in my
body. That's what being painfree is. Being pain free, is not
having some tension in yourbody, because that is on that
(22:11):
spectrum of your body is tellingyou something so please stop
doing that thing. Don't fightthrough pain, listen to your
body and do more of the thingsthat make you feel good
afterwards. Follow that body'sintuition.
James Crow (22:24):
You've mentioned twice now runners, I live right
next to a country park in in abig urban area. And we see a lot
of runners there. And when youmentioned fight or flight, you
reminded me of thatstartle-pattern response with
people's shoulders raising andthe neck tightening. And so many
of the runners I see are in thatfight or flight startle pattern
as they run. And it just can'tbe comfortable. And I look at
(22:48):
them and I turn to my my longsuffering wife. And I say, see
that person, they're 'doing'running, they're not having a
run, they're not enjoying a run,they're 'doing' running. And you
can see the displeasure on theirfaces. It's some form of
self-flagellation or punishment.
I've got myself into thisphysical state. And unless I
punish myself, I can't get outof it.
Posture Ellie (23:11):
Yeah. And I think, you know, I completely
get it. Because running isreally pleasurable. You know,
it's very meditative. I wouldnever do more than a half
marathon. But I've done a halfmarathon before. And I get it,
that kind of high that you getwhen you're in that flow state,
and everything's knocked out.
And that's wonderful. But I justthink that, like you said, it's
it's kind of self punishment, Ithink it's because we're fed
(23:31):
this thing of, if it's not hard,you're not doing it properly,
you know. It shouldn't be thathaving run, going for run is a
struggle, or that you have pain.
It should be that it is apleasurable, relaxed, fluid
experience. And then, you know,they get themselves into these
spirals where they're justlooking at what orthotics they
(23:53):
can put in their shoes, howfluffy their shoes can be, let's
put a knee brace on. All ofthese things are just Band Aid
solutions to a global problem.
You know, if your footscollapsing in, it's not just
your foot, it's how your hipsare interacting with your foot
is what the shoulders are doingabove that. And if only they
would take a step back, leavethe running for few months do
this type of work set their bodyup for success and efficiency
(24:15):
and function. And then theirrunning would feel completely,
completely different. But Icompletely agree with you. I see
sometimes people just they lookpained, they just look, it
doesn't look like that kind ofeasy flowing run that you see
when you see that some of thereally ultra marathon runners,
that just make it look like adance. Don't they look
incredible?
James Crow (24:34):
Yeah. And we can't be all as amazing as them but we
can certainly enjoy exerciserather than making it a
punishment or damaging to us.
Posture Ellie (24:41):
Exactly, exactly.
James Crow (24:43):
Okay, well that's all fantastic advice. And I'm
sure our listeners I've gotloads out of that. What do they
do if they want to find you,where are you?
Posture Ellie (24:52):
They can get in touch with me through my
website, www.posture-ellie.comor my Instagram or my Youtube
@posture.ellie, both of thoseplatforms, have got loads of
videos and stuff that people canwatch and interact with. And if
they like what they see and itresonates with them, then do
check out my website and you canhave a look at that kind of
(25:14):
process about becoming a one toone client of mine if you're
interested.
James Crow (25:17):
There you go, folks.
So thanks so much for coming on,Ellie. It's been a pleasure to
speak to you. You've maintaineda really nice open upright
posture as we've talked throughthe whole process!
Posture Ellie (25:29):
I hadn't noticed it's so natural for me now,
James. I'm joking! Thank you somuch for having me, James. It's
been great coming on.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!