February 26, 2021 • 21 mins
We talk to Lorna Taylor, a Physiotherapist who specialises in helping teachers and schoolchildren. Lorna was so dismayed by the state of teacher's posture that she developed her own range of products to help, including the popular Jolly Back chair. Listen in as we discuss the hard times teachers have, and how they can be helped.
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James Crow (00:00):
Hey everybody, its James from Posture Stars. Thanks
(00:02):
for tuning in. Today we'retalking to Lorna Taylor,
physiotherapist and founder ofJolly Back. Lorna has been a
children's physiotherapist forover 15 years, and is now
specialising in occupationalhealth and ergonomics. I'm going
to talk to her about posture inteachers and schools, which is a
massive subject right now.
Hello, Lorna.
Lorna Taylor (00:23):
Hi, James. Thanks for having me on today.
James Crow (00:26):
Oh, thanks so much for coming on. I've been really
looking forward to speaking toyou. You've got a real interest
in the moment in teacher'sposture. Tell me what's going on
there.
Lorna Taylor (00:35):
So I guess my interest in teacher's posture
came about from when I wasworking in schools in Derby
city, going in looking at kidsposture because more and more
children are coming through withback problems now. And it was
whilst in, that the teachers, assoon as people know you're a
physio, would often come up tome with the back, the hip, the
(00:56):
knee problems.
James Crow (00:57):
Oh are you a physio?
Can I talk to you about my backproblem, Lorna?
Lorna Taylor (01:01):
Of course, after this James. I'm really
interested in it. But yeah, someteachers lying on classroom
floors during break time tostretch their back out and
thinking that's perfectlyacceptable and normal whilst at
work. So when we looked at theirworking practices in primary
schools, there's low heightworking everywhere, we're never
(01:22):
going to escape big peopleworking with the little people,
there will always be that heightdifference. Sitting in kids
chairs, bending over tables,washing h ands in those sinks,
you name it. They're stoopingover a lot of the day. It was
then that I thought that Ireally need to be able to help a
bit more here. And with myknowledge as a physio of
ergonomics, I thought if we canimprove the way they're sitting,
(01:46):
that will help a little bit. Sothat's when I came up with the
idea of the jolly back chair,just as a wedge seat, height,
adjustable backrest on wheels,handles so they don't have to
bend or move it or pick it up.
So safer for children becausechairs aren't being lifted
overhead. And it went fromthere really, but I realise
that's a very reactive way totreat the problem. And so I do a
(02:07):
lot more proactive, trying toraise awareness about teachers
back health and workingconditions. And it's just gone
from there really.
James Crow (02:17):
I can't believe how bad a time teachers have of it.
In my private practice, maybeone fifth of my clients are
eachers. I have a fifth of theare physios and massage t
erapists because physios are aways getting broken, and a fi
th are teachers. Is it becausthere are that many teac
ers in the country? Or isit because they're having these
oor working practices and thin
Lorna Taylor (02:38):
Yeah, really interesting. You see a lot of
teachers and I suspect a lot arecoming in their own time and
paying, self funding theirtreatments. We did some research
with the University of Derby,looking at the incidence of
musculoskeletal pain in teachersover five years ago now. Just to
try and identify the need.
Anecdotally, as you say, andothers, you speak to teachers,
(03:00):
they often say, "Oh, yeah, myback hurts at end of the day, or
I hang off a doorframe",somebody says, "to have a
stretch out". If you've gotkids, you'll know if you've been
in a parent, same thing when youleave parents evening from the
little chairs, how uncomfortablethat feels. So teachers are
aware, but they are veryaccepting that it's part of the
job, and they don't really knowwhat else to do about it. And I
(03:20):
think the other factor amongstthis is teachers are very well
meaning and everything's aboutthe children. And when they say
they're going to work, they'renot really saying "when I'm at
work", it's more "when I'm atschool". So I sometimes think
that teachers don't think thatgoing to school is work. And
(03:41):
maybe if that concept of themgoing to work was more ingrained
within them, they might thinkactually hang on sitting on a
kid's hard plastic chair that's35 centimetres high as my work
chair, they might think that,you know, that isn't acceptable.
I've even had teachers that havesaid, they've had to sign
disclaimers when they're workingin primary in case the chair
(04:03):
breaks because they're notweight tested for adults. So
rather than sort of say, "Well,what should I sit on?", they
just sign a disclaimer. It'sreally tough for teachers. It's
accepted. It will take change,but I'm hoping certainly after
the pandemic, well-being will beup there more so and schools,
any organisation, is only asgood as its staff and its
(04:26):
employees. And if we think aboutschools, the output of schools
is children's education. So Ireally think there should be a
massive shift to recognising theimportance of teachers health
and well-being and actually havethat investment in staff. And
hopefully then when it's not sotaboo that "oh my back's sore"
(04:46):
it will be talked about and thenideally prevented before before
they need to come and see youJames!
James Crow (04:57):
Yes, before they need to come and see me and say
"Oh my god back, I'm anotherteacher, come on fix me!" What a
nightmare. Certainly in privateindustry, employers have a duty
of care to look after theirstaff. Is that not the case in
schools? Is it different?
Lorna Taylor (05:12):
It is the case in schools. Absolutely. And there
are practices in schools that,quite frankly, are illegal, but
people don't want to raise afuss. And in nurseries I've been
into I've had people in tears,saying they've spent 400 on
private treatment, and mentionedit to their manager and have
(05:35):
just been told that they can bereplaced. So workplace culture
is huge. And there are a lot ofpressures on head teachers,
nursery owners, nurserymanagers. I also think many that
come into those positions or gotpromoted to those positions have
been teachers themselves, andmaybe haven't had the leadership
(05:56):
experience and their knowledgeand awareness of knowing the
benefits of investing in staff,and the outputs you can get from
well-being an occupationalhealth initiatives. So it's not
necessarily a blame, but it'sdefinitely something, a huge
area that needs tackling. Youlook on ergonomics websites, and
it's to do with construction andhealthcare, manufacturing, but
(06:19):
but rarely see anything abouteducation. Yeah, that's
something that I'm keen tochange.
James Crow (06:23):
Well you're doing a great job of working on it. I
really hope that you start tomake inroads in this. To me,
it's really depressing when Isee what's happening with
teachers, and particularly atthe moment in early 2021,
teachers getting a great deal ofpraise and support for how hard
they're working. And yet on theback end, the actual
infrastructure supporting themhas been terrible, if not
(06:46):
negligent?
Lorna Taylor (06:47):
Yeah, when you say, negligent, you look at
teacher well-being posts onFacebook, Instagram, that type
of thing, looking at their homeworking environments. Now, it's
not only a home workingenvironment for a teacher, they
are actually having to teach.
And some of them are sitting onsofas with laptops on their lap,
trying desperately hard to propup a whiteboard behind them, so
(07:09):
they display a board to teach.
And I'd just be reallyinterested to know what heads
and school leaders have checkedin, and how frequently with
these teachers. Because thereare solutions to this, there are
products that can help, there isadvice and awareness that can
help. But when you see teacher'sworking environments, they're
(07:29):
sitting at dining room tableswith cushions stuffed in their
back, some working on an ironingboard, great that they're
standing up, but are they usingthat in a way to stand up or
because there's no other space?
And yet you look at othercompanies, where they are
authorising standing desks forthat their staff working at
home, or they've been able totake home, the DSE equipment
(07:51):
because they're not in theoffice, whereas teachers, I
don't know, I honestly thinkthey've just have to get on and
deal with it themselves. I don'tknow if that's because the heads
are unaware of the legislationand the guidance of what they
need to provide. I don't knowwhy they're not providing it,
I'm only thinking it's becausethey're not aware of what they
(08:13):
need to do and how to do it.
Rather than that they're notcarrying off their staff.
James Crow (08:19):
When you said DSC equipment, then what that means
is display screen equipment. Andwhen these guidelines were set
up, these were specifically forpeople using desk based CRT
monitors. But teachers now a lotof their that display screen
equipment may be a handheldmobile phone or a tablet propped
up on something. Are thoseguidelines sufficient at the
(08:42):
moment?
Lorna Taylor (08:42):
I don't think the guidelines that were already in
place are known about inschools. From a DSE point of
view, you've got teachers thatwill be using their laptops, or
technology for more than an houra day, but they won't have how
to do a DSE equipmentassessment, which is, as we
know, illegal. So I think if wehaven't got that level of
(09:03):
awareness and procedure,pre-COVID, it's unlikely to be
happening during the pandemic. Iguess the important thing is
what happens after and certainlyraising awareness for staff
about what they can do now. Andthere's plenty we you can do as
we both know about improvingyour workstation, whilst you're
(09:26):
at home with equipment thatyou've got at home. I think key
is getting up and moving. But Ithink it's really, really
important that teachers contacttheir manager or their lead or
their health and safety lead,occupational health if they are
uncomfortable or struggling athome or at school, because if
(09:47):
they are struggling, theircolleagues will be too and that
often does help teachers becausethey think by saying something,
they won't be able to work andthen it'll put more strain and
pressure on their colleagues.
They're very well meaning Butactually, if teachers are
themselves experiencing theseproblems, so will their
colleagues So in other words,maybe if you don't want to do it
for you, and you should you'reentitled to, and you need to be
(10:09):
responsible for your own healthand well being. But if it's
easier to think I'm raising thisas an issue to help my
colleagues and future teacherscoming through, then do it that
way. But do let someone know,because no problem can be solved
unless somebody knows about.
James Crow (10:27):
Yeah, someone's got to say something. Yeah. And
often, it's a tip of the icebergthing for every one person who
who has raised awareness there'sanother 10 or 12 people behind
them, who haven't or who won't,
Lorna Taylor (10:37):
Yeah, and they're willing for someone just to take
them. Yeah. And it isn't a caseof school having to spend 1000s
on height adjustable desks andsuch. It isn't that at all. And
it can be something you know,improving the working
environment, looking up the airquality, and the temperature and
the lighting and the design ofthe actual space and their
(11:00):
setup. So to have better postureand health and well being isn't
a case, always of spendingmoney. But actually, if you
value your staff, you need toinvest in them. And ultimately,
they will be more productive.
Teachers, I did have a casestudy with a school, once a
member of staff had rheumatoidarthritis or chronic pain, and
(11:22):
occupational health recommendeda Jolly Back chair so we put
that in. And the businessmanager could not believe the
difference in the member ofstaff. She used to be a member
of staff, shall we say, maybenot shouty is the right word.
But she understandably was quiteimpatient with 30 4 year old
children in a class if she wasin pain, and you are more
(11:46):
irritated. She said, since she'dhad a chair and was more aware
of her working set up, that noparent had been in to say, "she
was a bit short with my child".
And she said the behaviourmanagement was improved no end.
And that's something that Ididn't fully realise. But
(12:09):
actually, it makes sense ifpeople are comfortable and not
in pain, they can concentrate onthe job and they feel happier
themselves.
James Crow (12:14):
So better posture in teachers means happier teachers,
means happier, better educatedkids.
Lorna Taylor (12:20):
Yeah. And posture to me isn't just about standing
up straight, it is integral.
James Crow (12:27):
Well Lorna its funny, you should say "posture
for me isn't about" because Ihave a question for you, which
is my first question that I askall of my podcast people, which
is "what is posture?"
Lorna Taylor (12:39):
Well, to me it's an integral part of health. And
I don't believe we can be fullyhealthy in terms of our physical
and mental health withouthealthy posture. For me, it's
more about the self awareness ofour bodies interacting with the
environment, it improves ourdigestion, our circulation, our
(13:04):
whole sense of well being. Sothat is his posture. To me, it's
a dynamic word. It isn't justabout let's slump over and let's
sit up straight. It's integralto our physical and emotional
health.
James Crow (13:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's an ongoing input into whoand what we are as human beings
and how we get through life.
Very holistic of you Lorna!
Lorna Taylor (13:29):
Well, it is, I think there's lots of different
camps isn't there, and everyonehas their own opinion. And
that's great. Differentopinions, help create more
ideas. And that's brilliant. ButI think we should try and get
away from compartmentalizingdifferent aspects of posture and
(13:49):
ergonomics and mental health. Itis one thing, it is joined up,
one thing affects the other
James Crow (13:55):
One great big chunk of well-being isn't it, at the
end of the day?
Lorna Taylor (13:57):
Yeah. So in a way, if it's like a win-win, isn't
it? If you're thinking aboutyour posture and awareness of
your body, it's gonna havebenefits in other areas. So why
wouldn't you?
James Crow (14:10):
Yeah, totally. I challenge our listeners.
Totally. I challenge ourlisteners to come up with one
reason why they wouldn't wantbetter posture. I'm struggling
to find any. Maybe get morepestered by people thinking
they're more attractive also,that's probably the only the
only downside.
Lorna Taylor (14:26):
Yeah, I'm not thinking about more attractive
but yeah, I guess you would beif you're more aware and happy
with yourself. Yeah. shine more.
James Crow (14:34):
Yeah, shining.
People shine when they're happyin themselves, and their posture
reflects that. And thenimproving their posture can, as
with your teacher colleague, canchange how they are in
themselves as well, theirpersonality. Oh, that's lovely.
So my second question is, how doyou improve people's posture?
What do you do?
Lorna Taylor (14:55):
Well I guess for me, because posture is
multifactorial, and I'm a hugeadvocate for moving, moving,
moving, moving. So, to not sitdown too long to know, you know,
every 20 minutes properly get upand move for 20 minutes. But in
(15:15):
that as well, make sure,certainly in these times, to
look after your eyes as well. Soyou gaze 20 metres into the
distance for 20 seconds. Sothinking of this 20 20 20,
because it's much easier, we arecreatures of looking for the
path of least resistance. It'smuch easier if we have points to
(15:36):
remember. So just think every 20minutes, I've got to move and
look in the distance. So I thinkmovement is fundamental, knowing
that we can work in differentpositions, we haven't just got
to be sat at a desk and chair,we can stand up, we can lie
down, we can sit cross legged,or one leg up in your chair -
just just to move. So I'm veryconscious of that, I bring to
(16:02):
how can we people's posture,I've obviously developed the
Jolly Back chair and also nowfortunate to be in a position to
develop a range of otherproducts to help teachers,
focusing on the health andwell-being, the safety of
themselves and the childrenthey're working with. And just
trying to raise awarenessthrough working with the
University of Derby, the EarlyYears Alliance, that actually,
(16:26):
the health and well-being ofteachers will benefit the
children you're teaching andcaring for and trying to go down
that angle, because teachers andpeople working with children are
so well meaning and the childrenare everything. But actually
trying to say that you can'tgive if you aren't, well, fit
yourself. So that's the kind ofthing I'm doing to hopefully
(16:49):
help people.
James Crow (16:50):
So if any of our listeners at home, have been sat
down for more than 20 minutes.
Yeah, just get out of yourchair. Now. Turn this nonsense
off and go and have a walk andcome back and turn it on again.
Lorna Taylor (17:03):
Well actually, listen to this nonsense and walk
around the house or if you'reable to walk around, move, just
move however you can.
James Crow (17:10):
Yeah, and give your eyes a rest as well, go and be
nosy and see what the neighboursare doing. Yeah, it's healthy to
be nosy about your neighbors.
Lorna Taylor (17:17):
Go and look for a healthy snack in the fridge.
James Crow (17:20):
Yeah, just don't have peanut butter on toast like
I did before this this podcast,or you will still be suffering
like I am. Okay so you'rehelping people, teachers, in
particular, with their postureby providing products and
resources for them as well.
Lorna Taylor (17:37):
Yes, we also, thinking about that off the top
of my head as well, we found arange of manual handling
trainers, because the othercrazy thing is a lot of
undergraduates and teachers andcertainly, nursery workers
training are going to work withchildren, but yet they're not
shown how to safely move andcarry children for their health
(18:01):
and also for the child's health.
So we've got a range of manualhandling advisors around the
country that will offerpractical advice on how best to
carry children therapeutically,position them for play, that you
can access through the JollyBack website as well.
James Crow (18:18):
That sounds fantastic that's jollyback.com
It's an interesting name.
Lorna Taylor (18:26):
I thought at the time, I was on maternity leave
going slightly mad with thethird one when I had the idea,
doing my schools work prior tomaternity. And my eldest
daughter was five at the time.
And we were thinking of ideasfor names and she had the idea
of Jolly Back because she saidthey were learning Jolly phonics
at school, and it's kind ofhappy and fun. And so that's
where the name came fromactually.
James Crow (18:49):
I have to say, since I ever first heard the name,
I've never forgotten it, whichcan't be said of a lot of
products out there. So it is itis easy to remember.
Lorna Taylor (18:57):
Thank you.
James Crow (18:57):
My third question is, and we might have answered
this already, for our listenersat home, if you had to do one
thing right now to improve yourposture. What would that be,
Lorna?
Lorna Taylor (19:08):
It would be to be self aware of the posture that
you're currently in, theposition you're currently in,
and think about how you canimprove it. Can you move to a
different position? Just beaware of your body and your your
posture when you're movingaround.
James Crow (19:25):
There are loads of ways you can improve body
awareness peeps, you can dovarious modalities, physical
stuff like yoga, Pilates,Alexander Technique. Mindfulness
is a nice way of becoming moreaware of your posture, listening
to podcasts, from Posture Stars,and subscribing to our mailing
list is a great way to ensurethat your posture is permanently
at the top of your mind. So manyways. We mentioned kids and
(19:46):
moving in school and I'd reallylike to do another podcast where
we talk about kids posture inschool and also when kids are
doing their homework workingfrom home. Is that something
that we'd be able to work with?
Lorna Taylor (19:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
James happily helped with that.
There's lots of advice thatparents and carers can do with
the children at home using theequipment that they've got,
right up to looking atworkstations for children and
such, like. So again, it'spretty endless. And I think as
parents, we are a lot moreconscious of our children,
(20:21):
hunching over devices andworking for hours in recent
months. And although they willbe back to school very soon,
hopefully, home working and homestudying will continue for all
the years they're in education.
And I think, importantly, weshould be setting our kids up
with early habits as they gointo the workforce. There's
(20:41):
quite a lot of work coming outof Europe at the minute looking
at the future generation,because a lot of young people
are entering the workplace withpre existing back and neck
problems. And also, that'sobviously not great for the
individual, but actually quitecostly for employers. So they're
wanting to look at health ofyounger people in schools as
(21:02):
well.
James Crow (21:04):
This is terrible because these these are the kids
who are going to be paying formy pension in retirement, so I'm
not having them taken time offwork with bad backs and bad
necks, we need to get working onit. Thanks for that, Lorna.
Okay, so Lorna Taylor of JollyBack, that has been really
informative. We've learned a lotabout teachers and the problems
(21:25):
they're having with theirposture. And I'm sure to have
you back and we'll discuss kidsposture as well both at school
and importantly for parents whenthey're doing their homework.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I've really enjoyed our timetogether.
Lorna Taylor (21:37):
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.
Hey everybody, its James from Posture Stars. Thanks
(00:02):
for tuning in. Today we'retalking to Lorna Taylor,
physiotherapist and founder ofJolly Back. Lorna has been a
children's physiotherapist forover 15 years, and is now
specialising in occupationalhealth and ergonomics. I'm going
to talk to her about posture inteachers and schools, which is a
massive subject right now.
Hello, Lorna.
Lorna Taylor (00:23):
Hi, James. Thanks for having me on today.
James Crow (00:26):
Oh, thanks so much for coming on. I've been really
looking forward to speaking toyou. You've got a real interest
in the moment in teacher'sposture. Tell me what's going on
there.
Lorna Taylor (00:35):
So I guess my interest in teacher's posture
came about from when I wasworking in schools in Derby
city, going in looking at kidsposture because more and more
children are coming through withback problems now. And it was
whilst in, that the teachers, assoon as people know you're a
physio, would often come up tome with the back, the hip, the
(00:56):
knee problems.
James Crow (00:57):
Oh are you a physio?
Can I talk to you about my backproblem, Lorna?
Lorna Taylor (01:01):
Of course, after this James. I'm really
interested in it. But yeah, someteachers lying on classroom
floors during break time tostretch their back out and
thinking that's perfectlyacceptable and normal whilst at
work. So when we looked at theirworking practices in primary
schools, there's low heightworking everywhere, we're never
(01:22):
going to escape big peopleworking with the little people,
there will always be that heightdifference. Sitting in kids
chairs, bending over tables,washing h ands in those sinks,
you name it. They're stoopingover a lot of the day. It was
then that I thought that Ireally need to be able to help a
bit more here. And with myknowledge as a physio of
ergonomics, I thought if we canimprove the way they're sitting,
(01:46):
that will help a little bit. Sothat's when I came up with the
idea of the jolly back chair,just as a wedge seat, height,
adjustable backrest on wheels,handles so they don't have to
bend or move it or pick it up.
So safer for children becausechairs aren't being lifted
overhead. And it went fromthere really, but I realise
that's a very reactive way totreat the problem. And so I do a
(02:07):
lot more proactive, trying toraise awareness about teachers
back health and workingconditions. And it's just gone
from there really.
James Crow (02:17):
I can't believe how bad a time teachers have of it.
In my private practice, maybeone fifth of my clients are
eachers. I have a fifth of theare physios and massage t
erapists because physios are aways getting broken, and a fi
th are teachers. Is it becausthere are that many teac
ers in the country? Or isit because they're having these
oor working practices and thin
Lorna Taylor (02:38):
Yeah, really interesting. You see a lot of
teachers and I suspect a lot arecoming in their own time and
paying, self funding theirtreatments. We did some research
with the University of Derby,looking at the incidence of
musculoskeletal pain in teachersover five years ago now. Just to
try and identify the need.
Anecdotally, as you say, andothers, you speak to teachers,
(03:00):
they often say, "Oh, yeah, myback hurts at end of the day, or
I hang off a doorframe",somebody says, "to have a
stretch out". If you've gotkids, you'll know if you've been
in a parent, same thing when youleave parents evening from the
little chairs, how uncomfortablethat feels. So teachers are
aware, but they are veryaccepting that it's part of the
job, and they don't really knowwhat else to do about it. And I
(03:20):
think the other factor amongstthis is teachers are very well
meaning and everything's aboutthe children. And when they say
they're going to work, they'renot really saying "when I'm at
work", it's more "when I'm atschool". So I sometimes think
that teachers don't think thatgoing to school is work. And
(03:41):
maybe if that concept of themgoing to work was more ingrained
within them, they might thinkactually hang on sitting on a
kid's hard plastic chair that's35 centimetres high as my work
chair, they might think that,you know, that isn't acceptable.
I've even had teachers that havesaid, they've had to sign
disclaimers when they're workingin primary in case the chair
(04:03):
breaks because they're notweight tested for adults. So
rather than sort of say, "Well,what should I sit on?", they
just sign a disclaimer. It'sreally tough for teachers. It's
accepted. It will take change,but I'm hoping certainly after
the pandemic, well-being will beup there more so and schools,
any organisation, is only asgood as its staff and its
(04:26):
employees. And if we think aboutschools, the output of schools
is children's education. So Ireally think there should be a
massive shift to recognising theimportance of teachers health
and well-being and actually havethat investment in staff. And
hopefully then when it's not sotaboo that "oh my back's sore"
(04:46):
it will be talked about and thenideally prevented before before
they need to come and see youJames!
James Crow (04:57):
Yes, before they need to come and see me and say
"Oh my god back, I'm anotherteacher, come on fix me!" What a
nightmare. Certainly in privateindustry, employers have a duty
of care to look after theirstaff. Is that not the case in
schools? Is it different?
Lorna Taylor (05:12):
It is the case in schools. Absolutely. And there
are practices in schools that,quite frankly, are illegal, but
people don't want to raise afuss. And in nurseries I've been
into I've had people in tears,saying they've spent 400 on
private treatment, and mentionedit to their manager and have
(05:35):
just been told that they can bereplaced. So workplace culture
is huge. And there are a lot ofpressures on head teachers,
nursery owners, nurserymanagers. I also think many that
come into those positions or gotpromoted to those positions have
been teachers themselves, andmaybe haven't had the leadership
(05:56):
experience and their knowledgeand awareness of knowing the
benefits of investing in staff,and the outputs you can get from
well-being an occupationalhealth initiatives. So it's not
necessarily a blame, but it'sdefinitely something, a huge
area that needs tackling. Youlook on ergonomics websites, and
it's to do with construction andhealthcare, manufacturing, but
(06:19):
but rarely see anything abouteducation. Yeah, that's
something that I'm keen tochange.
James Crow (06:23):
Well you're doing a great job of working on it. I
really hope that you start tomake inroads in this. To me,
it's really depressing when Isee what's happening with
teachers, and particularly atthe moment in early 2021,
teachers getting a great deal ofpraise and support for how hard
they're working. And yet on theback end, the actual
infrastructure supporting themhas been terrible, if not
(06:46):
negligent?
Lorna Taylor (06:47):
Yeah, when you say, negligent, you look at
teacher well-being posts onFacebook, Instagram, that type
of thing, looking at their homeworking environments. Now, it's
not only a home workingenvironment for a teacher, they
are actually having to teach.
And some of them are sitting onsofas with laptops on their lap,
trying desperately hard to propup a whiteboard behind them, so
(07:09):
they display a board to teach.
And I'd just be reallyinterested to know what heads
and school leaders have checkedin, and how frequently with
these teachers. Because thereare solutions to this, there are
products that can help, there isadvice and awareness that can
help. But when you see teacher'sworking environments, they're
(07:29):
sitting at dining room tableswith cushions stuffed in their
back, some working on an ironingboard, great that they're
standing up, but are they usingthat in a way to stand up or
because there's no other space?
And yet you look at othercompanies, where they are
authorising standing desks forthat their staff working at
home, or they've been able totake home, the DSE equipment
(07:51):
because they're not in theoffice, whereas teachers, I
don't know, I honestly thinkthey've just have to get on and
deal with it themselves. I don'tknow if that's because the heads
are unaware of the legislationand the guidance of what they
need to provide. I don't knowwhy they're not providing it,
I'm only thinking it's becausethey're not aware of what they
(08:13):
need to do and how to do it.
Rather than that they're notcarrying off their staff.
James Crow (08:19):
When you said DSC equipment, then what that means
is display screen equipment. Andwhen these guidelines were set
up, these were specifically forpeople using desk based CRT
monitors. But teachers now a lotof their that display screen
equipment may be a handheldmobile phone or a tablet propped
up on something. Are thoseguidelines sufficient at the
(08:42):
moment?
Lorna Taylor (08:42):
I don't think the guidelines that were already in
place are known about inschools. From a DSE point of
view, you've got teachers thatwill be using their laptops, or
technology for more than an houra day, but they won't have how
to do a DSE equipmentassessment, which is, as we
know, illegal. So I think if wehaven't got that level of
(09:03):
awareness and procedure,pre-COVID, it's unlikely to be
happening during the pandemic. Iguess the important thing is
what happens after and certainlyraising awareness for staff
about what they can do now. Andthere's plenty we you can do as
we both know about improvingyour workstation, whilst you're
(09:26):
at home with equipment thatyou've got at home. I think key
is getting up and moving. But Ithink it's really, really
important that teachers contacttheir manager or their lead or
their health and safety lead,occupational health if they are
uncomfortable or struggling athome or at school, because if
(09:47):
they are struggling, theircolleagues will be too and that
often does help teachers becausethey think by saying something,
they won't be able to work andthen it'll put more strain and
pressure on their colleagues.
They're very well meaning Butactually, if teachers are
themselves experiencing theseproblems, so will their
colleagues So in other words,maybe if you don't want to do it
for you, and you should you'reentitled to, and you need to be
(10:09):
responsible for your own healthand well being. But if it's
easier to think I'm raising thisas an issue to help my
colleagues and future teacherscoming through, then do it that
way. But do let someone know,because no problem can be solved
unless somebody knows about.
James Crow (10:27):
Yeah, someone's got to say something. Yeah. And
often, it's a tip of the icebergthing for every one person who
who has raised awareness there'sanother 10 or 12 people behind
them, who haven't or who won't,
Lorna Taylor (10:37):
Yeah, and they're willing for someone just to take
them. Yeah. And it isn't a caseof school having to spend 1000s
on height adjustable desks andsuch. It isn't that at all. And
it can be something you know,improving the working
environment, looking up the airquality, and the temperature and
the lighting and the design ofthe actual space and their
(11:00):
setup. So to have better postureand health and well being isn't
a case, always of spendingmoney. But actually, if you
value your staff, you need toinvest in them. And ultimately,
they will be more productive.
Teachers, I did have a casestudy with a school, once a
member of staff had rheumatoidarthritis or chronic pain, and
(11:22):
occupational health recommendeda Jolly Back chair so we put
that in. And the businessmanager could not believe the
difference in the member ofstaff. She used to be a member
of staff, shall we say, maybenot shouty is the right word.
But she understandably was quiteimpatient with 30 4 year old
children in a class if she wasin pain, and you are more
(11:46):
irritated. She said, since she'dhad a chair and was more aware
of her working set up, that noparent had been in to say, "she
was a bit short with my child".
And she said the behaviourmanagement was improved no end.
And that's something that Ididn't fully realise. But
(12:09):
actually, it makes sense ifpeople are comfortable and not
in pain, they can concentrate onthe job and they feel happier
themselves.
James Crow (12:14):
So better posture in teachers means happier teachers,
means happier, better educatedkids.
Lorna Taylor (12:20):
Yeah. And posture to me isn't just about standing
up straight, it is integral.
James Crow (12:27):
Well Lorna its funny, you should say "posture
for me isn't about" because Ihave a question for you, which
is my first question that I askall of my podcast people, which
is "what is posture?"
Lorna Taylor (12:39):
Well, to me it's an integral part of health. And
I don't believe we can be fullyhealthy in terms of our physical
and mental health withouthealthy posture. For me, it's
more about the self awareness ofour bodies interacting with the
environment, it improves ourdigestion, our circulation, our
(13:04):
whole sense of well being. Sothat is his posture. To me, it's
a dynamic word. It isn't justabout let's slump over and let's
sit up straight. It's integralto our physical and emotional
health.
James Crow (13:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's an ongoing input into whoand what we are as human beings
and how we get through life.
Very holistic of you Lorna!
Lorna Taylor (13:29):
Well, it is, I think there's lots of different
camps isn't there, and everyonehas their own opinion. And
that's great. Differentopinions, help create more
ideas. And that's brilliant. ButI think we should try and get
away from compartmentalizingdifferent aspects of posture and
(13:49):
ergonomics and mental health. Itis one thing, it is joined up,
one thing affects the other
James Crow (13:55):
One great big chunk of well-being isn't it, at the
end of the day?
Lorna Taylor (13:57):
Yeah. So in a way, if it's like a win-win, isn't
it? If you're thinking aboutyour posture and awareness of
your body, it's gonna havebenefits in other areas. So why
wouldn't you?
James Crow (14:10):
Yeah, totally. I challenge our listeners.
Totally. I challenge ourlisteners to come up with one
reason why they wouldn't wantbetter posture. I'm struggling
to find any. Maybe get morepestered by people thinking
they're more attractive also,that's probably the only the
only downside.
Lorna Taylor (14:26):
Yeah, I'm not thinking about more attractive
but yeah, I guess you would beif you're more aware and happy
with yourself. Yeah. shine more.
James Crow (14:34):
Yeah, shining.
People shine when they're happyin themselves, and their posture
reflects that. And thenimproving their posture can, as
with your teacher colleague, canchange how they are in
themselves as well, theirpersonality. Oh, that's lovely.
So my second question is, how doyou improve people's posture?
What do you do?
Lorna Taylor (14:55):
Well I guess for me, because posture is
multifactorial, and I'm a hugeadvocate for moving, moving,
moving, moving. So, to not sitdown too long to know, you know,
every 20 minutes properly get upand move for 20 minutes. But in
(15:15):
that as well, make sure,certainly in these times, to
look after your eyes as well. Soyou gaze 20 metres into the
distance for 20 seconds. Sothinking of this 20 20 20,
because it's much easier, we arecreatures of looking for the
path of least resistance. It'smuch easier if we have points to
(15:36):
remember. So just think every 20minutes, I've got to move and
look in the distance. So I thinkmovement is fundamental, knowing
that we can work in differentpositions, we haven't just got
to be sat at a desk and chair,we can stand up, we can lie
down, we can sit cross legged,or one leg up in your chair -
just just to move. So I'm veryconscious of that, I bring to
(16:02):
how can we people's posture,I've obviously developed the
Jolly Back chair and also nowfortunate to be in a position to
develop a range of otherproducts to help teachers,
focusing on the health andwell-being, the safety of
themselves and the childrenthey're working with. And just
trying to raise awarenessthrough working with the
University of Derby, the EarlyYears Alliance, that actually,
(16:26):
the health and well-being ofteachers will benefit the
children you're teaching andcaring for and trying to go down
that angle, because teachers andpeople working with children are
so well meaning and the childrenare everything. But actually
trying to say that you can'tgive if you aren't, well, fit
yourself. So that's the kind ofthing I'm doing to hopefully
(16:49):
help people.
James Crow (16:50):
So if any of our listeners at home, have been sat
down for more than 20 minutes.
Yeah, just get out of yourchair. Now. Turn this nonsense
off and go and have a walk andcome back and turn it on again.
Lorna Taylor (17:03):
Well actually, listen to this nonsense and walk
around the house or if you'reable to walk around, move, just
move however you can.
James Crow (17:10):
Yeah, and give your eyes a rest as well, go and be
nosy and see what the neighboursare doing. Yeah, it's healthy to
be nosy about your neighbors.
Lorna Taylor (17:17):
Go and look for a healthy snack in the fridge.
James Crow (17:20):
Yeah, just don't have peanut butter on toast like
I did before this this podcast,or you will still be suffering
like I am. Okay so you'rehelping people, teachers, in
particular, with their postureby providing products and
resources for them as well.
Lorna Taylor (17:37):
Yes, we also, thinking about that off the top
of my head as well, we found arange of manual handling
trainers, because the othercrazy thing is a lot of
undergraduates and teachers andcertainly, nursery workers
training are going to work withchildren, but yet they're not
shown how to safely move andcarry children for their health
(18:01):
and also for the child's health.
So we've got a range of manualhandling advisors around the
country that will offerpractical advice on how best to
carry children therapeutically,position them for play, that you
can access through the JollyBack website as well.
James Crow (18:18):
That sounds fantastic that's jollyback.com
It's an interesting name.
Lorna Taylor (18:26):
I thought at the time, I was on maternity leave
going slightly mad with thethird one when I had the idea,
doing my schools work prior tomaternity. And my eldest
daughter was five at the time.
And we were thinking of ideasfor names and she had the idea
of Jolly Back because she saidthey were learning Jolly phonics
at school, and it's kind ofhappy and fun. And so that's
where the name came fromactually.
James Crow (18:49):
I have to say, since I ever first heard the name,
I've never forgotten it, whichcan't be said of a lot of
products out there. So it is itis easy to remember.
Lorna Taylor (18:57):
Thank you.
James Crow (18:57):
My third question is, and we might have answered
this already, for our listenersat home, if you had to do one
thing right now to improve yourposture. What would that be,
Lorna?
Lorna Taylor (19:08):
It would be to be self aware of the posture that
you're currently in, theposition you're currently in,
and think about how you canimprove it. Can you move to a
different position? Just beaware of your body and your your
posture when you're movingaround.
James Crow (19:25):
There are loads of ways you can improve body
awareness peeps, you can dovarious modalities, physical
stuff like yoga, Pilates,Alexander Technique. Mindfulness
is a nice way of becoming moreaware of your posture, listening
to podcasts, from Posture Stars,and subscribing to our mailing
list is a great way to ensurethat your posture is permanently
at the top of your mind. So manyways. We mentioned kids and
(19:46):
moving in school and I'd reallylike to do another podcast where
we talk about kids posture inschool and also when kids are
doing their homework workingfrom home. Is that something
that we'd be able to work with?
Lorna Taylor (19:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
James happily helped with that.
There's lots of advice thatparents and carers can do with
the children at home using theequipment that they've got,
right up to looking atworkstations for children and
such, like. So again, it'spretty endless. And I think as
parents, we are a lot moreconscious of our children,
(20:21):
hunching over devices andworking for hours in recent
months. And although they willbe back to school very soon,
hopefully, home working and homestudying will continue for all
the years they're in education.
And I think, importantly, weshould be setting our kids up
with early habits as they gointo the workforce. There's
(20:41):
quite a lot of work coming outof Europe at the minute looking
at the future generation,because a lot of young people
are entering the workplace withpre existing back and neck
problems. And also, that'sobviously not great for the
individual, but actually quitecostly for employers. So they're
wanting to look at health ofyounger people in schools as
(21:02):
well.
James Crow (21:04):
This is terrible because these these are the kids
who are going to be paying formy pension in retirement, so I'm
not having them taken time offwork with bad backs and bad
necks, we need to get working onit. Thanks for that, Lorna.
Okay, so Lorna Taylor of JollyBack, that has been really
informative. We've learned a lotabout teachers and the problems
(21:25):
they're having with theirposture. And I'm sure to have
you back and we'll discuss kidsposture as well both at school
and importantly for parents whenthey're doing their homework.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I've really enjoyed our timetogether.
Lorna Taylor (21:37):
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.
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