April 9, 2025 • 40 mins
Join us on the Poultry Nerds Podcast as we sit down with Bronwen Brune w/Queen B Farm in Missouri to discuss her incredible journey from accidental backyard chicken keeper to dedicated breeder of Black Mottled Brahmas. Bronwyn shares her experiences, from dealing with aggressive roosters to mastering complex poultry genetics to create a new, stunning variety. Learn about chicken math, breeding strategies, genetics of mottled feathers, overcoming common poultry challenges, and the reality of creating show-quality birds from scratch. Perfect for both backyard enthusiasts and serious breeders aiming for poultry excellence!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer (00:00):
Welcome to Poultry Nerds.
We are here today with BronwynBruney from Queen Bee Farm, and
I have already asked her middlename does not start with a B
'cause that would be tooconvenient.
Bronwen (00:15):
So welcome, Bronwyn.
How are you?
I am doing great.
Thank you guys so much forhaving me.
I appreciate it.
Jennifer (00:22):
Sure.
So tell us about your farm,where you are.
All the good stuff.
Bronwen (00:26):
Yeah, so we are middle-ish, Missouri.
More towards between Columbiaand St.
Louis, Missouri is where weland.
We just started all of thisshenanigans about 2017 or so
whenever we moved out ofsuburbia and got our little
patch of dirt.
It started with hey, thatoutbuilding would make a great
(00:49):
chicken coop.
Carey (00:52):
Oh God.
Bronwen (00:53):
And my husband was like yeah, I can do that.
And then like several yearslater I was like, you know what
else would make a good chickencoop?
Jennifer (01:00):
chickens did you start with in that little one
building?
Bronwen (01:03):
Yeah.
Probably 15 ish, I feel is theright answer.
Okay.
And then chicken math took over.
It was on accident.
I didn't mean it.
Carey (01:13):
what happened was it was
Bronwen (01:16):
definitely legitimately not on purpose.
I had no intention of beingwhere I am.
I more or less just.
Went with what circumstancesprovided me and ran with it.
But it was definitely not myintent.
I had some poultry background.
I grew up on a farm.
We didn't have poultry.
(01:37):
Okay, so do you guys know ElmiraDuff, the little cartoon on the
Looney Tunes, who likes to loveand hug and squeeze everything.
Yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
So whenever I was little andgrandma had chickens, and of
course they were just,production chickens.
I was like, these birds looklike they have a hunk of ham on
their head.
And also they won't let me catchthem and squeeze them and love
(01:59):
them.
So I really didn't have anyinterest.
I was more of a kitten barn, catbeagle puppy.
Kind of kid growing up, I was,used to these birds.
They don't like me.
They don't allow me to squeezethem.
So I didn't really have anyinterest.
So fast forward to now, I had noidea that this would ever be
anything that interests me orthat I would even enjoy.
(02:20):
So yeah.
And then.
Next thing you know,
Jennifer (02:25):
here we are.
So growing up we had I, Ithought for the longest time
that they were laggards, butthen dad told me one day they
were white rocks, but it doesn'tmatter.
They were just maniacs thattried to eat me all the time.
Yes, I swore once I left home, Iwould never.
Have chickens again.
Bronwen (02:44):
Yeah.
Mom and dad had some geese atone point in time and scared the
daylights outta me and theywould chase me out of the barn.
I was trying to feed the cowsand couldn't.
I was little and my dad finallystood behind me and was like,
you are going to walk into thatbar.
Did I remember crying my faceoff?
I was so scared of'em.
I was like, I'm never having anykind of poultry,
Carey (03:03):
but like geese bite
Bronwen (03:04):
there.
Carey (03:05):
had him bite me on the leg when I was a kid.
Bronwen (03:08):
when you're only three feet tall, they are very scary.
Carey (03:12):
Yeah.
Bronwen (03:13):
Yeah.
I never thought like I said, I'ma barn cat beagle, puppy cow
kind of girl.
Grew up as a poultry person, soI didn't have this on my Bingo
card.
So what kind of animals do youhave now?
so we dabbled in ducks for a hotsecond and that was also not on
purpose.
And I don't really have aceiling for the number of
chickens I can maintain, but Iabsolutely have a ceiling for
(03:36):
how many ducks I wanna have.
I just don't have the setup,right?
Like I don't have a naturalwater source.
So it was constantly, flippingout kitty pools and all that
mess with keeping up with them.
And I only had two or three.
And even that was.
Way enough.
So we passed on the ducks.
So just chickens right now.
We have dogs, we have cats.
The list is still incomplete.
(03:59):
I need to retire before we canexpand.
Jennifer (04:03):
Please do it in the mean, I know
Bronwen (04:06):
just live on
Carey (04:06):
the edge.
Who needs sleep?
Bronwen (04:08):
I don't know how that goat got in the.
That's weird.
So that's how this whole thinghas evolved.
But yeah, so far just dogs,cats, and the birds outside.
Jennifer (04:18):
Alright, so the reason why we brought you on today was
because you are creating modeledbras from scratch.
Bronwen (04:29):
Yes.
I did that.
Carey (04:31):
a, that is a science project.
Isn't it?
I need to know how that works.
How do you get that?
Okay.
So
Bronwen (04:37):
it started with a mean rooster that was really the
catalyst for all of this.
When we were picking out ourfirst flock, my daughter and her
best friend were sitting downand they were flipping through
the hatchery catalog My onlyrequest was that it was Missouri
Tiger themed.
So I want black and goldchickens.
That's it.
Get black ones, get gold ones,get black and gold ones.
That was my only requirement.
And so they picked out amenagerie of birds.
(05:00):
Everything was good and theywere like, we need to pick a
rooster.
I was like, yeah, we need topick a rooster.
So then eeny miny mo landed on arooster, picked it, everything
was fine.
He was a little bit of a spazzgrowing up.
And then he got mean just likemost hatchery roosters do.
I'm not even gonna say the breed'cause it's not even important,
but.
He was a menace.
And for a year or two.
My mom had a flock at thispoint.
(05:22):
She got birds just a few yearsbefore I did, and she got
several breeds, but she got somebuff braas.
And I was completely in love.
My inner Elmira duff was allabout these birds.
Like I could just scoop'em upand kiss'em and hug them.
And my 30 something year oldself was so happy.
I was like, this is it.
(05:43):
So I was like, I definitelywanna get more of those.
So that's what hooked me intobras.
And I definitely included themin my black and gold menagerie.
And then this mean rooster, mymom had a mix or something mean
rooster.
And so I just assumed that's howit is.
Like they're just jerks and youjust have to go out with the
tennis racket and that's howit's,
Carey (06:02):
one way to do it.
Bronwen (06:04):
And so then I was like my friends down the road got a
large foul black coachin.
And so again, my inner Elmiraduff was like,
Jennifer (06:14):
oh,
Bronwen (06:15):
I need that in my life.
And so I went on the search fora large foul achin.
Just because I wanted a nicerooster'cause he was nice and
found a lady in Columbia,Missouri actually that raises
modeled large foul black cos,which is pretty hard to find
unless you're Jamie Mats or someof his folks.
And I was like, yes, I will takehim.
(06:35):
So literally I only wanted him'cause he was sweet and she.
She said, he is modeled.
I was like, cool.
'cause I don't even know whatthat means.
Carey (06:42):
he was like, okay,
Bronwen (06:44):
that's nice.
Is he big?
Yes.
Is he black?
Yep.
Cool.
Check.
I'll take him.
So I bring him home.
He's the sweetest thing ever.
He is like a front porch dog.
I was in love and the RottenRooster.
I was like, oh, that isabsolutely enough of you and
nobody needs to tolerate thisactually.
And I made it like my mission.
To make sure everyone knows thatnice roosters exist.
(07:05):
That was like my whole thing.
Like I am going to cross thisbig sweet boy with my buff
brass, which I love so much, andI'm just gonna create giant,
heavily feathered sweet birds.
That was my absolute goal afterMizzou tiger themed birds.
And so when I, whenever I askedquestions about it, I was like
(07:26):
what color will they be?
And someone told me.
Chicken colors are like meltingcrayons.
So if you take a black crayonand you melt it with a yellow
crayon, you're gonna get blackbirds.
I was like, oh, okay.
So sure enough, when we bredthem together, we had black
chicks and I was like, P worksjust like melting crayons.
(07:47):
No big deal.
So that's how that firstgeneration.
Started, they were solid black.
All of them.
They had vulture hawks.
I didn't know what that means.
They were split to modeling.
I didn't know.
I didn't know what that means.
Some of them had leakage.
I didn't know what that means.
I didn't care.
It wasn't my goal.
And so in the meantime, I'm likejust perpetuating these sweet
(08:08):
birds, speckling'em across thecounties next to me and a family
from Illinois comes and theysaid we would love some hatching
eggs.
I was like, sure.
'cause they fell in love withBucky, who was the large foul
modeled coach, and they're like,oh man, we would love his
babies.
I'm like, everybody wants hisbabies.
I know he's the best.
So they took hatching eggs, theyhatched them.
(08:29):
In the meantime, she's keepingup with me, she's sending me
pictures and she sends me apicture of a buff bird that has
modeling.
And I was like that doesn't makesense because I thought it was
like melting crayons and all ofthese birds are black, and so
tell me how black birds madethis bird.
(08:51):
And so for the next like sixmonths amongst chasing kids
around ball fields and all thethings, I was like, what in the
world?
How the heck did I do this?
How is this even possible?
And he grew and I was like, whatin the world?
So finally I figured out how Idid it, why I did it, the
genetics behind how it happened.
I.
And I don't know, I sent herwith like a dozen, 18 maybe
(09:13):
something like that.
Eggs, just backyard mutts.
And she only had one that lookedlike him.
She would not sell him back tome.
And so I was like if I did itonce, I can do it again, right?
so then I was like, I still haveall the birds that made him, so
I'll just do it again.
So that set in motion my.
Short walk off the deep end.
(09:35):
And so at this point I'm liketrying to figure out how I'm
going to turn eggs in the middleof the night and a styrofoam
incubator that's still air.
And I'm like doing all thesedumb things and asking stupid
questions and face planting andlearning and all the things.
And I finally figured out.
That this was actually prettyhard and that one bird that was
(09:56):
hatched out of those 12 or 18eggs was a unicorn.
And going forward, this wasgonna be pretty miserable to try
to repeat that, but I was justdetermined and dumb and so I was
like, I'll just keep going.
So that second generation, Ihatched just a bonkers load of
birds trying to find another.
(10:16):
Buff bird that was modeled.
So basically all of these birdswere black, but since they were
a cross between a black and abuff, they were still carrying
all of those genetics.
They were all split to modeled.
So now I know I only had a 25%chance of getting any modeled
birds out of that cross in thefirst place, which was low.
And then on top of that, evenless that would be.
(10:39):
Buff modeled.
And on top of that, even less,that wouldn't have vulture
hawks.
'cause at that point I realizedif I'm gonna raise Brams, I need
to extinguish the vulture hawks.
'cause that's a dq.
So really we're talking likesingle digit percentages on what
I would actually produce thatfell within my criteria.
Carey (10:59):
Nothing major.
Bronwen (11:00):
Yeah, no big deal.
Like I'm just.
Carrying along, like sprinklingbirds across everybody's
backyard.
Nope, this one won't work.
But during that process, duringthat second generation, I was
producing some number of blackmodeled without vulture hawks.
And I initially, I was justdiscarding them.
'cause I was like, that's not mygoal.
(11:21):
And then eventually I was like,you know what, maybe I could
just use these second generationblack modeled as a byproduct of
this effort, trying to getMillie flour and split off
another project.
Like I'm creating them.
They're sitting right in frontof me.
They don't have vulture Hawks,they're black.
They're fully modeled.
Maybe I can use that.
(11:43):
So at that second generation iswhen I split and was like, okay,
there's the Millie Flo effort,which is.
Abysmal and long and hard andmakes me feel like a failure
most days.
And then there's the modeled.
And so I was like, okay.
And so at that point, I only atthat second generation, I only
had two pulls out of, I don'tknow, probably 200 birds.
(12:07):
I hatched outta that secondgeneration.
It was a lot that were fullymodeled.
Black, no leakage, visibleAnyway.
No vulture hawks.
And so those two girls are whatcatapulted the entire model
project.
So that was So
Jennifer (12:25):
can I ask a question?
Bronwen (12:26):
Yeah.
Jennifer (12:27):
So the coaching was the male, what was the hens that
you were using?
Bronwen (12:32):
Buff Braas.
And they were hatchery qualitybuff bras.
Looking back like they'reterrible.
They were not good stock.
They were like hatchery, butmaybe just a little below
hatchery quality.
There's other hatchery qualitybuff braas that look definitely
better than what I started outwith, for sure.
Jennifer (12:51):
Okay, so you've got, now you're at the end of this.
Second generation and you've gottwo pulls and you still got your
male.
Bronwen (13:00):
Yeah, so I decided not to go back to him because my
girls, even though they'regranddaughters of his, they're
still favoring a decent amountof coaching type.
And I was like, Ugh, I need tosomehow get away from the
coaching type.
Their cushions were a littlewonky, there's still some
things, they didn't have vulturehawks, but they certainly didn't
(13:22):
reflect the proper braa type.
So I reached out to Beach Bumdown in Florida, and Amy was
like.
I was like, what do you have formales?
And she gave me the rundown.
I'm like, my girls need this.
They need a better top line.
They need longer legs.
They need obviously a better pcomb'cause we're still working
through that.
I'm like, but they have decentleg feathering from the coach
(13:43):
and influence.
But these are the things I need.
And Amy was like, I think I havethe guy for you.
So she picked what I was lookingfor to compliment my girl's
shortcomings and she sent thisblue mail up.
Which at that point I was like,I'll take black or blue.
Like it doesn't really matter.
But because she sent me a bluenow that diversified what I
have.
(14:04):
She sent him up.
I used him to produce that thirdgeneration.
They were of course all splits.
I went heavy cuing on type.
Didn't care obviously.
'cause they weren't showing anymodeling in that third
generation.
I guess I feel like we're maybe.
I could have done differently ifI'm hindsight's 2020 if I
would've known what I know now.
(14:26):
Back in that first generation,some of those girls probably had
better type that I wasn'tfocusing on at the time.
At that point, those F1 blackgirls I was just looking for.
Big, heavy leaf feathered, biggirls.
I wasn't focusing on any kind oftype.
So had I focused on that earlyon, I probably would've made
bigger gains later on.
(14:47):
But I was just living my elmiraduff life.
I just want sweet birds.
So at the point that these thirdgeneration birds were produced,
then I was really dialing in andI really focused hard on
recessive genes.
Whether it is eliminaterecessive jeans or whether I
need to, promote recessivejeans.
(15:09):
One of my biggest things I hearpeople say all the time, it
drives me bonkers, is, you gottabuild the barn before you paint
it.
Oh, that's nice and all, buthave you ever actually done this
from scratch?
Because if you have ever donethis from the absolute bottom
up, you cannot follow thatmantra.
You cannot.
Paint a barn white.
If you are not bringing thewhite bucket along with you as
(15:31):
you go, you can't get there.
You'll never get there.
So whenever, like yellow shanks,for example, obviously these are
black birds and or blue birds.
Now at this point.
They don't wanna have yellowskin.
They don't want to.
It is very hard to promote thatyellow skin on a black bird.
(15:52):
So that was hard.
if I let go of yellow shanks,because it's a color attribute,
if we're gonna go with that, andI'm just looking at type and I
only select for type.
I'm gonna lose that yellowshank.
If I never select for modeling,I'm never gonna have a modeled
bird, so it's not a one sizefits all statement, in my
(16:14):
opinion.
It is a balance between type andcolor when you are working like
this from the bottom up.
When you don't have exhibitionquality to start, when you're
trying to claw for every littleattribute you can with each
generation, you're.
Crossing a bird with a beautifulskull to a bird with a crow
head, hoping that somehowsomebody gets long legs out of
(16:36):
the bed.
Like you're really in thetrenches of that.
And it's just not a one sizefits all statement in those
cases.
I understand why people say it,but, okay.
Let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
Jennifer (16:47):
The modeling gene?
Yes.
Is that a recessive?
Bronwen (16:50):
It is.
Jennifer (16:52):
Okay.
do the male and the female bothcarry it?
Bronwen (16:55):
You got it.
It is not sex linked.
it actually doesn't inhibit orpromote or do anything with any
other color or pattern.
It is literally a standalonegene that performs or doesn't
perform based on whether it'shomozygous or not.
So your
Jennifer (17:09):
third gener, you said your, was it your third
generation?
Yep.
Wasn't showing any model at all.
Yep.
They were all splits.
So everybody was heterozygous.
Bronwen (17:16):
You got it?
And I knew, say
Jennifer (17:18):
threat there.
Bronwen (17:19):
It had to be because my two girls were homozygous.
Okay.
And my boy didn't carry anymodeling genetics from Florida
at all.
So the girls gave every singleone of their babies one copy.
Wow.
So keeping records has ofcourse, been a thing.
(17:40):
You can definitely get somewherewith carriers, so you can make
progress with heterozygousbirds, whether it's
heterozygous, lavender,heterozygous, modeled, whatever
the gene is that you want topromote, you can get.
There with heterozygous birds,but you've gotta really keep
tight records, especially withlavender.
I don't even talk about thatbecause I don't even have
lavender on the farm'cause it'sI, but like modeling, at least
(18:03):
modeling, there's an advantagethere to other recessive genes.
With modeling, you can see ifthey are a carrier when they're
chicks.
So you can see that chick downand that juvenile feather
pattern.
You can see whether they carrymodeling or whether they don't
have any modeling.
You can see it.
Jennifer (18:24):
What are you looking for?
Bronwen (18:25):
So sometimes they just have tiny little white tips on
their feet, or their wings aremaybe on their head, but it's a
certain snapshot in time thatgives you that data.
So as babies and as juveniles,you can see it, but the minute
they start.
To feather out into their adultfeathering, it's gone.
And you will never know thatthey carry modeling ever again
(18:48):
unless you have them banded andfor certain, as chicks they
showed it.
'cause it'll be gone in theiradult feathers.
Jennifer (18:54):
So Jamie told me one time that in their armpits, if
they have white feathers intheir armpits, they carry the
model gene.
Bronwen (19:00):
Yeah, That could be.
I've not found that to be thecase.
I still have my F1 girls here, ahandful of them that are still
toddling around and they are jetblack to tip.
there's not a single speck ofwhite on them at all.
Yeah, it is tricky.
So the modeling was, I don'twanna say fall off a log easy,
(19:21):
but like the modeling was nottoo terrible.
The Millie floor has been.
Like I said, extremelychallenging and abysmal and at
least the modeling has takenoff.
So at the point that those fthrees were hatched and I was
able to then, because they wereonly carriers for modeling that
F generation back to that wholepaint the barn or, build the
barn before you paint it.
Jennifer (19:42):
And
Bronwen (19:42):
that F three generation, I really did focus
on type only because there wasnothing to focus on color.
They were only heterozygous forit.
it had worked out that everyother generation I was focusing
on one or the other to keep themmoving forward.
So that third generation, Ireally hammered down pretty hard
on type.
And then in that fourthgeneration, I was back to the
(20:05):
original where, I was only gonnaproduce 25% that were modeled.
And so again, that fourthgeneration was a ton of chicks
to hatch.
I really dialed in hard on thebirds that reflected the best
type and that were alsohomozygous modeled.
I could have kept back others,but I really wanted to call hard
(20:25):
and get there.
And so at that point then I knewlike I can stop worrying about
modeling because it'sperpetuated now everybody's
homozygous and I don't need toworry about it, So basically
from generation four on now,it's all about building the barn
because my bucket of white painthas followed me all along the
way, and I haven't lost it orleft it along the way.
(20:46):
But yeah I think one of thebiggest struggles for bras and
projects is.
we only have three acceptedvarieties.
There's not a lot out there to,you only have just a select
small genetic pool of genes thatyou can use to create anything.
And so it becomes tricky withthis particular breed to create
(21:07):
anything novel without outcrossing.
Same thing that Bumble LowHollow Farm said, they get a lot
of comments about those aren'treal bras and these aren't
purebred and all the things.
And I was like, do you guysthink a stork came and dropped
these birds with all thesecolors on it?
What do you think?
How do you think that we gothere?
Like of course that's the onlyway to do it.
Jennifer (21:26):
You have to really understand genetics.
So are you still getting singlecombs?
Bronwen (21:32):
Oh, absolutely.
Last year I got a lot of singlecombs.
Jennifer (21:35):
So
Bronwen (21:37):
I made
Jennifer (21:37):
single combs are recessive yes.
You have the two copies formedto show.
Yes.
Now I have coachings.
I don't know if you knew that ornot.
Yes.
Bronwen (21:46):
Okay.
Big old sweet boys and girls.
I know.
I love them.
Jennifer (21:50):
So the, where you were talking about, we were just
gonna expand on some of thethings you brought up.
So the yellow skin.
Yes.
The black pigment of thefeathers wants to leak into the
skin and dull the yellow.
It sure does.
So it's very important To payattention to those, any bitty
tiny details.
Bronwen (22:11):
got it.
Jennifer (22:12):
So on the coachings, you look at the pads of their
feet.
'cause those are the firstthings that kind of gray out.
Bronwen (22:17):
Gotcha.
Yeah, I've, I found that in thatthird generation, when I was
really dialed in on type, I waspicking apart my leg color
pretty hard in that generationand calling out any of those
grays.
I just know, you've got twothings working against you.
Number one, it's recessive, butnumber two, exactly like you
(22:37):
said, the black feather pigmentdoes not want to be yellow.
I learned at that point thatit's not necessarily sex linked.
But it is sex expressed.
So Ty, I was finding my malesare nice and bright yellow
compared to their sisters, forexample.
The girls are really strugglingwith that pigment, but the males
in that same hatch group look,decently bright.
(23:00):
And it's not a sex linked trait,but it is sex express.
So at that point I was like,gotcha.
Okay.
In that case.
All of my males must have yellowthat has to happen.
And the girls, I gave a littlebit more grace to if their leg
color wasn't quite as brightjust because I knew that was
gonna be a harder road to hoe toget them there.
(23:22):
But yeah, you're exactly right.
It is tough on any blackbirdthat requires yellow shanks.
Jennifer (23:27):
modeled bras, you want yellow skin.
Bronwen (23:31):
You got it.
That's the standard for bras.
Yep.
Jennifer (23:35):
And then on the center and the outer toe.
You got it.
What about on the brams?
Bronwen (23:39):
Same.
So they should not have vulturehawks, which I know is a big,
sometimes there's a lot ofconversation about whether cos
have vulture hawks or not.
The definition of vulture hawks,if we're talking milli, the du
clays which have, or thesultans, which have the really
stiff.
Vulture hawks versus the cos,which have a much softer curl to
their leg.
Feathering.
It's a combination of genes thatcreates vulture hawks and in the
(24:04):
cos it's a softer culmination ofthose feathers.
But when you cross a cochin to abra.
And the Brahma has no vulturehawks.
You 100% get chicks with vulturehawks.
So it's that combination ofjeans that heavily feathered
skirt that the cos have, and thefact that their feather quality
is so soft.
(24:24):
Yeah it, every single one of myfirst generation birds had
vulture hawks and I had to weedit out with that second
generation push.
Jennifer (24:32):
So Abra is a harder feathered bird.
Bronwen (24:34):
It should be, yes.
Jennifer (24:36):
So you're, how are you gonna move from a soft feather
to a harder feather?
Bronwen (24:40):
keep on going.
I've definitely seen in my birdsover the years a much fluffier
cushion, if you will.
So that speaks to that softerfeather, and it just speaks to
the overall type for sure.
The cushion has been something,and I think it's not unique to
me.
I think it's unique to mostproject birds.
(25:00):
That cushion is really a bear toget, like if you think about a
light braa in that beautifulclean sweep that they see that
nice flat sweep.
And then you think, like you seesome of these project birds
where their wings are tucking inand they have a waist and then
poof out comes their cushion.
I had the same issue, so I wentto the Ohio National and
exhibited for the first time inNovember, which was fantastic.
(25:23):
I've been to one poultry showbefore that, so this was my
second poultry show, and I wentto the Ohio National, brought 11
birds again, that short walk offthe deep end part.
And so I was like, I'm doing it.
So I went and I was so excited.
I was so nervous getting all mybirds tucked into their cages,
like a mom with their kid goingto school on kindergarten or
something.
And then finally when I stopped.
(25:45):
Looked around me at the otherBrahmas that were in the cages
around me.
I was like, oh dang, I
Jennifer (25:52):
have a
Bronwen (25:53):
long way to go.
Oh my gosh.
And I, you think your birds lookgreat, and then you look up and
you're like, oh no.
Yeah, they're trash.
Okay.
Gosh, there's just so much.
And that rigidity of feather,the feather quality, being thin
versus, a thicker featherquality.
All of those things.
(26:14):
Once I got my hands on otherexhibitors, birds, of course,
with her permission and they onmine, I was like, okay, yeah, I
see what y'all are talking aboutnow.
Yeah.
Such a eye-opening experiencewonderful.
Of course.
But yeah, it was a lot to takein for sure.
Carey (26:30):
I saw your birds at the Ohio National and they stood up
pretty well to the ones next to'em.
Bronwen (26:39):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
But I.
The ones that I brought wereyoung.
I think there are other birdsthat were puls in the exhibit
hall were also the same age, andthey just were not the right
size.
So I, when I went home, I waslike, okay, we gotta get serious
about amping up the size ofthese suckers.
We've gotta get bigger and we'vejust gotta get there.
(27:02):
the birds that I exhibited werejust my fifth generation.
in my first and secondgeneration, once I decided that
this is what I was gonna do, Iwas like, get there in what?
A couple years blind ambition.
Jennifer (27:14):
I, as you're trying to get rid of some of the coaching
stuff, and transform it over myodd question.
I'm just wondering how long, howmany generations before you got
rid of the beetle brow.
Bronwen (27:27):
So bra are
Jennifer (27:28):
bras don't have that right.
Bronwen (27:29):
They are supposed to have it
Jennifer (27:33):
as heavy as a coaching.
Bronwen (27:34):
I'm probably the last person to answer that question
specifically, but yeah, they aredefinitely supposed to be like
resting Brahma face angry.
Speed brow.
Like they're definitely supposedto have that, heavy wide
Carey (27:49):
resting Brahma face.
That's it.
That's what we're calling it.
Bronwen (27:52):
They're definitely supposed to have that heavy
brow.
Some of the exhibition lightsare so heavy, real similar to
the coachings.
I think maybe you don't see itas often in the exhibit halls
because you're not seeing asmany.
Quality bras that have thatattribute.
But yeah, they really aresupposed to have that.
Big old knobby bonker head likethey're can't see.
Jennifer (28:14):
So if somebody doesn't know what a beetle brow is,
that's like, where it like thatwas that guy from Dennis the
menace.
His eyebrows were really heavyand they hung down.
Yeah.
So like on my coachings, if youcome up above them, like they're
standing at your feet and youcome down on them, they cannot
see you.
Yes.
Their brow is.
So heavy.
Yes.
(28:34):
Like they're blind.
They up looking up, they should
Bronwen (28:37):
look like the red angry bird.
Yes, exactly.
So yeah they, that's how theyshould look.
So in that respect, that shouldbe something we perpetuate
through the line.
I think one of the harder thingsjust in brass in general is to
get that length of back.
And that's something I've reallystruggled with.
And that's just been a selectionthing over time.
(28:58):
Just keep picking the ones outthat are just a little bit wider
and a little bit longer, andover time you finally get to a
place I hope.
But yeah, I think that length ofback is really another thing.
I've got a, several with ashorter.
Maybe they have a nice sweep andmaybe they don't have that
pinched waist and that fluffycushion, but they certainly
(29:21):
still have a short back.
I think
Jennifer (29:23):
that's something that we work on a lot of breeds.
This year I'm, that's one of mypoints on the Orpingtons, and so
one of my mentors said that Ineed to put my hands on the
backs.
Of the boys and instead ofstanding to the side and looking
at their profile where, how longis their back?
(29:43):
You actually need to put yourhands on'em.
Feel their back and make surethat end of that bone continues
on and it's not just beingexasperated by the fluff, per
se.
Bronwen (29:56):
One of my mentors Lisa at the Ohio National, she had
her hands on mine as well, andshe let me when you.
Of course she was exhibitinghens, not puls, but at the same
time, like just the mass ofthese birds between the darks.
She and Scott were bothexhibiting darks at that time,
and just the mass on these birdswas just incredible.
She said, go into your coop andeither be blindfold or do it at
(30:19):
night so you're not biased,because I definitely have seen
myself over the time and overthe years.
Get coop blind and be biased tomy own.
I had someone come to my coopone time and they're like I
wouldn't use that one.
I was like, what?
What do you mean that one?
Why do you mean not that one?
it was one of my Millie floorpens, and she was like I think
he has a squirrel tail.
I was like, shut up.
(30:39):
He does has he been there thiswhole time?
What?
How did I not, yeah,
Jennifer (30:44):
but you do get coop blind.
Bronwen (30:45):
You do?
And Lisa recommended, she's gointo your coop.
With a blindfold or do it atnight and just feel them, touch
them, feel them.
So you are not biased on whoyou're touching and what, like
just then just make somedecisions based on what you're
feeling.
I was like, Ooh, that's a goodidea.
Yeah, because even still, yeah.
Jennifer (31:02):
So one of the orpingtons that I ended up
choosing to go in the breederpen, which actually went in a
couple days ago.
He was one that I had actuallythrown out to be put in the pot.
And he was out growing out andafter, you have these
conversations with your mentorson what to look for and stuff.
And I pulled up on the gator outto the barn and he's standing
(31:24):
there looking at me and I waslike, ha, that's what he was
talking about right there.
Yeah.
So he doesn't have a lot elsegoing for him, but I can use his
progeny.
For going forward.
Bronwen (31:41):
So I am super picky about my males.
I actually don't make anydecisions on my girls until I
have solidified my males becauseI find that it is so difficult.
To get the males.
I feel like you are covering thewhole pen.
Poof.
It's a lot of power in thatgenetic pool from your male.
And so since my girls, my F twogirls were only just a handful
(32:07):
of generations away from ablack, from a buff bra.
Even though they weren't show,my girls weren't showing any
leakage.
I knew they were packing it.
And so when I bred them to thebeach bum guy that third
generation, I got oodles ofleakage out of those progeny.
And so I was like, I'm not doingit.
I'm picking it all out.
So they were beautiful males,nice top lines, long legs,
(32:29):
beautiful combs.
I'm like, Do the pot.
Do the pot.
Do the pot.
You're leaking.
And out of that F threegeneration, I got two boys out
of all those babies that did notshow leakage.
one Black and happened to be oneblue.
And at that point I was like,okay, We're starting clans.
So that was clan one and clantwo, and the black ones type was
(32:49):
not good.
It was not good, but he wascrispy.
He had no leakage.
And I was like, we gotta work onthat'cause that's gonna be hard
to get rid of.
And I knew it was coming from mygirls.
At the end of the day, once I'veselected my males, I'm down to
just a handful that are notleaking, that have decent type
and all the things.
(33:10):
Then I circle up my girls andpick, who's gonna compensate
them.
So this year I've been able tostart a third clan.
So finally now I have threeclans going with clean mails.
I understand that the right wayto do it.
To get rid of leakage is singlemating.
Just, I'm just, I'm not in it.
(33:32):
I'm not in it.
So I can do it.
I don't know.
Have the space, time, energy,all the things.
I know it's the right thing todo and maybe someday.
But I don't know.
It's just a lot of girls insingle cages and I don't know.
I work outside the homefull-time.
This is just, this should be funfor me.
And I resonated so much withyour podcast with the United
(33:52):
Orpington.
Was she the present, Sarah?
Yeah.
I resonated so much with whatshe said and she was like, if
you don't like what you'refeeding out there, like you got,
I've said the same thing, likethe day that this is not fun for
me or enjoyable for me.
If this is not satisfying myinner elmira duff and I can't go
out there and scoop up thesebirds and squeeze them and hug
them, and maybe that makes meless.
(34:14):
Of a breeder because that'simportant to me.
I don't care.
It's fun for me.
And if the day that becomes notfun for me, like this is too
hard for this to not beenjoyable, like not around in
the winter and
Jennifer (34:26):
oh yeah.
All the things we have toremember sometimes remind
ourselves that this is our farmand this is our rules and we're
the only ones really that weneed to please.
Bronwen (34:36):
Yeah.
It's just a bird.
It's not that deep.
Yeah.
So I think if I had to go tosingle mating and I had to build
an infrastructure to supportthat, yes I could.
Would it be fun for me?
Probably not.
Oh man.
I'm just not there.
Maybe I will never be there.
I don't know.
So at any rate, I just try toselect the clean males and keep
(34:56):
like diluting out that leakage,I would say.
Now finally, I'm down to about10% of my boys.
Out of every hatch that areleaking.
So that's a far cry from where Iwas.
I was more like 85% at thebeginning.
So I don't know.
I'll just keep chipping away atit.
I'm not in a race.
(35:17):
I'm not winning anything.
I'm just here for trying toimprove, anyway, so let's wrap
Jennifer (35:22):
up a little
Bronwen (35:23):
bit.
Sure.
Jennifer (35:23):
where is this project in the a PA system?
Bronwen (35:28):
Nowhere.
Okay.
So that's the other thing.
This is the part that I waslike, man, I've been thinking
about it for several years.
I hear a lot of people say, ohgosh, your birds are great.
And all the things.
I'm like, thanks.
But there's imports out therethat are also black modeled.
So they obviously don't adhereto the a PA standard for Brams,
but what's gonna set me and myefforts apart from anyone else
(35:52):
who's been doing this I don'tknow, for me to let go of this
product and allow my birds to gosomewhere like I haven't allowed
exhibition or any kind ofquality, leave my farm.
I'm just not there yet.
I'm not ready, I don't wannaperpetuate, poor quality.
'cause there's already, we'realready struggling.
The Brams in general are justnot a super popular breed, so
(36:14):
they're already struggling as awhole.
I don't know.
I told Scott when he was workingon his golds, I was like, you go
first.
And I'm right behind you, buddy.
Good job.
I'm I think eventually I wouldreally like to partner with
breeders that are serious aboutmoving this.
Variety forward.
I don't know if it's a pipedream or if it's realistic,
(36:36):
maybe.
So where it goes from here, Idon't know.
The disadvantage to Brahmas andall the project colors that are
going is that there is nostandard that anyone is adhering
to for any of these projects,aside from like gold.
Of course, It's better now thanit was.
Three years ago, two years agoeven.
The community is growing, thesupport is growing.
(36:59):
We are in each other's backpockets, supporting and advising
and trying to get there.
But truly, all the way up untilthis point there's varieties all
over the place.
There's lace, there's, pencil,salmon, all kinds of things, but
there's no standard.
And if we're not promoting, somekind of a standard to draw
people to a middle ground, we'rejust willy-nilly making birds
(37:22):
left and right.
my goal would be to try to getthese guys approved, but man, I
just think it's such a stretchto even think that way.
But yeah, it would be great ifwe could.
It sure would be great if wecould.
Jennifer (37:35):
We have seriously enjoyed having you on today.
It was.
Very eye-opening.
Actually.
I never really thought aboutcreating a whole new variety
from scratch.
Bronwen (37:49):
Yeah.
It wasn't on purpose.
I there was actually.
During that second generationwhen I had a couple milli Flo
Birds that maybe, were, yeah,that pattern is just, that's a
whole nother topic.
But during that effort, theimports were starting to arrive
on shore and they were startingto really be sold out to
whomever and had pockets tospend and with no agenda and no
(38:12):
standard.
And people were just reproducingand producing and selling all
over the place.
And someone had told me like,it's not even gonna matter that
you're doing this because thesebirds are gonna be all over the
continent in a matter ofwhatever amount of time.
I was like, yeah, that may betrue, and that person was not
wrong.
But all of those birds are notbred to the standard.
(38:33):
And then that was the momentwhere when everyone went left
and we're like, we're gonna dothe import thing, I was like,
I'm going.
That's the only thing that'sgoing to make any of this
different than what you guyshave just gotten from across the
pond.
So that kind of catapulted intothis.
Like I said, short walk off thedeep end.
Jennifer (38:52):
There you go.
it takes somebody to start it.
Yeah.
Carey (38:56):
Yeah.
You gotta start somewhere.
Jennifer (38:58):
We have seriously enjoyed having you today and
hope you come back.
Bronwen (39:01):
I would be happy to come back.
Thanks so much for having me.
This has been great.
I really appreciate it.
All right.
Talk to you soon.
Okay.
Carey (39:08):
Bye.
Welcome to Poultry Nerds.
We are here today with BronwynBruney from Queen Bee Farm, and
I have already asked her middlename does not start with a B
'cause that would be tooconvenient.
Bronwen (00:15):
So welcome, Bronwyn.
How are you?
I am doing great.
Thank you guys so much forhaving me.
I appreciate it.
Jennifer (00:22):
Sure.
So tell us about your farm,where you are.
All the good stuff.
Bronwen (00:26):
Yeah, so we are middle-ish, Missouri.
More towards between Columbiaand St.
Louis, Missouri is where weland.
We just started all of thisshenanigans about 2017 or so
whenever we moved out ofsuburbia and got our little
patch of dirt.
It started with hey, thatoutbuilding would make a great
(00:49):
chicken coop.
Carey (00:52):
Oh God.
Bronwen (00:53):
And my husband was like yeah, I can do that.
And then like several yearslater I was like, you know what
else would make a good chickencoop?
Jennifer (01:00):
chickens did you start with in that little one
building?
Bronwen (01:03):
Yeah.
Probably 15 ish, I feel is theright answer.
Okay.
And then chicken math took over.
It was on accident.
I didn't mean it.
Carey (01:13):
what happened was it was
Bronwen (01:16):
definitely legitimately not on purpose.
I had no intention of beingwhere I am.
I more or less just.
Went with what circumstancesprovided me and ran with it.
But it was definitely not myintent.
I had some poultry background.
I grew up on a farm.
We didn't have poultry.
(01:37):
Okay, so do you guys know ElmiraDuff, the little cartoon on the
Looney Tunes, who likes to loveand hug and squeeze everything.
Yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
So whenever I was little andgrandma had chickens, and of
course they were just,production chickens.
I was like, these birds looklike they have a hunk of ham on
their head.
And also they won't let me catchthem and squeeze them and love
(01:59):
them.
So I really didn't have anyinterest.
I was more of a kitten barn, catbeagle puppy.
Kind of kid growing up, I was,used to these birds.
They don't like me.
They don't allow me to squeezethem.
So I didn't really have anyinterest.
So fast forward to now, I had noidea that this would ever be
anything that interests me orthat I would even enjoy.
(02:20):
So yeah.
And then.
Next thing you know,
Jennifer (02:25):
here we are.
So growing up we had I, Ithought for the longest time
that they were laggards, butthen dad told me one day they
were white rocks, but it doesn'tmatter.
They were just maniacs thattried to eat me all the time.
Yes, I swore once I left home, Iwould never.
Have chickens again.
Bronwen (02:44):
Yeah.
Mom and dad had some geese atone point in time and scared the
daylights outta me and theywould chase me out of the barn.
I was trying to feed the cowsand couldn't.
I was little and my dad finallystood behind me and was like,
you are going to walk into thatbar.
Did I remember crying my faceoff?
I was so scared of'em.
I was like, I'm never having anykind of poultry,
Carey (03:03):
but like geese bite
Bronwen (03:04):
there.
Carey (03:05):
had him bite me on the leg when I was a kid.
Bronwen (03:08):
when you're only three feet tall, they are very scary.
Carey (03:12):
Yeah.
Bronwen (03:13):
Yeah.
I never thought like I said, I'ma barn cat beagle, puppy cow
kind of girl.
Grew up as a poultry person, soI didn't have this on my Bingo
card.
So what kind of animals do youhave now?
so we dabbled in ducks for a hotsecond and that was also not on
purpose.
And I don't really have aceiling for the number of
chickens I can maintain, but Iabsolutely have a ceiling for
(03:36):
how many ducks I wanna have.
I just don't have the setup,right?
Like I don't have a naturalwater source.
So it was constantly, flippingout kitty pools and all that
mess with keeping up with them.
And I only had two or three.
And even that was.
Way enough.
So we passed on the ducks.
So just chickens right now.
We have dogs, we have cats.
The list is still incomplete.
(03:59):
I need to retire before we canexpand.
Jennifer (04:03):
Please do it in the mean, I know
Bronwen (04:06):
just live on
Carey (04:06):
the edge.
Who needs sleep?
Bronwen (04:08):
I don't know how that goat got in the.
That's weird.
So that's how this whole thinghas evolved.
But yeah, so far just dogs,cats, and the birds outside.
Jennifer (04:18):
Alright, so the reason why we brought you on today was
because you are creating modeledbras from scratch.
Bronwen (04:29):
Yes.
I did that.
Carey (04:31):
a, that is a science project.
Isn't it?
I need to know how that works.
How do you get that?
Okay.
So
Bronwen (04:37):
it started with a mean rooster that was really the
catalyst for all of this.
When we were picking out ourfirst flock, my daughter and her
best friend were sitting downand they were flipping through
the hatchery catalog My onlyrequest was that it was Missouri
Tiger themed.
So I want black and goldchickens.
That's it.
Get black ones, get gold ones,get black and gold ones.
That was my only requirement.
And so they picked out amenagerie of birds.
(05:00):
Everything was good and theywere like, we need to pick a
rooster.
I was like, yeah, we need topick a rooster.
So then eeny miny mo landed on arooster, picked it, everything
was fine.
He was a little bit of a spazzgrowing up.
And then he got mean just likemost hatchery roosters do.
I'm not even gonna say the breed'cause it's not even important,
but.
He was a menace.
And for a year or two.
My mom had a flock at thispoint.
(05:22):
She got birds just a few yearsbefore I did, and she got
several breeds, but she got somebuff braas.
And I was completely in love.
My inner Elmira duff was allabout these birds.
Like I could just scoop'em upand kiss'em and hug them.
And my 30 something year oldself was so happy.
I was like, this is it.
(05:43):
So I was like, I definitelywanna get more of those.
So that's what hooked me intobras.
And I definitely included themin my black and gold menagerie.
And then this mean rooster, mymom had a mix or something mean
rooster.
And so I just assumed that's howit is.
Like they're just jerks and youjust have to go out with the
tennis racket and that's howit's,
Carey (06:02):
one way to do it.
Bronwen (06:04):
And so then I was like my friends down the road got a
large foul black coachin.
And so again, my inner Elmiraduff was like,
Jennifer (06:14):
oh,
Bronwen (06:15):
I need that in my life.
And so I went on the search fora large foul achin.
Just because I wanted a nicerooster'cause he was nice and
found a lady in Columbia,Missouri actually that raises
modeled large foul black cos,which is pretty hard to find
unless you're Jamie Mats or someof his folks.
And I was like, yes, I will takehim.
(06:35):
So literally I only wanted him'cause he was sweet and she.
She said, he is modeled.
I was like, cool.
'cause I don't even know whatthat means.
Carey (06:42):
he was like, okay,
Bronwen (06:44):
that's nice.
Is he big?
Yes.
Is he black?
Yep.
Cool.
Check.
I'll take him.
So I bring him home.
He's the sweetest thing ever.
He is like a front porch dog.
I was in love and the RottenRooster.
I was like, oh, that isabsolutely enough of you and
nobody needs to tolerate thisactually.
And I made it like my mission.
To make sure everyone knows thatnice roosters exist.
(07:05):
That was like my whole thing.
Like I am going to cross thisbig sweet boy with my buff
brass, which I love so much, andI'm just gonna create giant,
heavily feathered sweet birds.
That was my absolute goal afterMizzou tiger themed birds.
And so when I, whenever I askedquestions about it, I was like
(07:26):
what color will they be?
And someone told me.
Chicken colors are like meltingcrayons.
So if you take a black crayonand you melt it with a yellow
crayon, you're gonna get blackbirds.
I was like, oh, okay.
So sure enough, when we bredthem together, we had black
chicks and I was like, P worksjust like melting crayons.
(07:47):
No big deal.
So that's how that firstgeneration.
Started, they were solid black.
All of them.
They had vulture hawks.
I didn't know what that means.
They were split to modeling.
I didn't know.
I didn't know what that means.
Some of them had leakage.
I didn't know what that means.
I didn't care.
It wasn't my goal.
And so in the meantime, I'm likejust perpetuating these sweet
(08:08):
birds, speckling'em across thecounties next to me and a family
from Illinois comes and theysaid we would love some hatching
eggs.
I was like, sure.
'cause they fell in love withBucky, who was the large foul
modeled coach, and they're like,oh man, we would love his
babies.
I'm like, everybody wants hisbabies.
I know he's the best.
So they took hatching eggs, theyhatched them.
(08:29):
In the meantime, she's keepingup with me, she's sending me
pictures and she sends me apicture of a buff bird that has
modeling.
And I was like that doesn't makesense because I thought it was
like melting crayons and all ofthese birds are black, and so
tell me how black birds madethis bird.
(08:51):
And so for the next like sixmonths amongst chasing kids
around ball fields and all thethings, I was like, what in the
world?
How the heck did I do this?
How is this even possible?
And he grew and I was like, whatin the world?
So finally I figured out how Idid it, why I did it, the
genetics behind how it happened.
I.
And I don't know, I sent herwith like a dozen, 18 maybe
(09:13):
something like that.
Eggs, just backyard mutts.
And she only had one that lookedlike him.
She would not sell him back tome.
And so I was like if I did itonce, I can do it again, right?
so then I was like, I still haveall the birds that made him, so
I'll just do it again.
So that set in motion my.
Short walk off the deep end.
(09:35):
And so at this point I'm liketrying to figure out how I'm
going to turn eggs in the middleof the night and a styrofoam
incubator that's still air.
And I'm like doing all thesedumb things and asking stupid
questions and face planting andlearning and all the things.
And I finally figured out.
That this was actually prettyhard and that one bird that was
(09:56):
hatched out of those 12 or 18eggs was a unicorn.
And going forward, this wasgonna be pretty miserable to try
to repeat that, but I was justdetermined and dumb and so I was
like, I'll just keep going.
So that second generation, Ihatched just a bonkers load of
birds trying to find another.
(10:16):
Buff bird that was modeled.
So basically all of these birdswere black, but since they were
a cross between a black and abuff, they were still carrying
all of those genetics.
They were all split to modeled.
So now I know I only had a 25%chance of getting any modeled
birds out of that cross in thefirst place, which was low.
And then on top of that, evenless that would be.
(10:39):
Buff modeled.
And on top of that, even less,that wouldn't have vulture
hawks.
'cause at that point I realizedif I'm gonna raise Brams, I need
to extinguish the vulture hawks.
'cause that's a dq.
So really we're talking likesingle digit percentages on what
I would actually produce thatfell within my criteria.
Carey (10:59):
Nothing major.
Bronwen (11:00):
Yeah, no big deal.
Like I'm just.
Carrying along, like sprinklingbirds across everybody's
backyard.
Nope, this one won't work.
But during that process, duringthat second generation, I was
producing some number of blackmodeled without vulture hawks.
And I initially, I was justdiscarding them.
'cause I was like, that's not mygoal.
(11:21):
And then eventually I was like,you know what, maybe I could
just use these second generationblack modeled as a byproduct of
this effort, trying to getMillie flour and split off
another project.
Like I'm creating them.
They're sitting right in frontof me.
They don't have vulture Hawks,they're black.
They're fully modeled.
Maybe I can use that.
(11:43):
So at that second generation iswhen I split and was like, okay,
there's the Millie Flo effort,which is.
Abysmal and long and hard andmakes me feel like a failure
most days.
And then there's the modeled.
And so I was like, okay.
And so at that point, I only atthat second generation, I only
had two pulls out of, I don'tknow, probably 200 birds.
(12:07):
I hatched outta that secondgeneration.
It was a lot that were fullymodeled.
Black, no leakage, visibleAnyway.
No vulture hawks.
And so those two girls are whatcatapulted the entire model
project.
So that was So
Jennifer (12:25):
can I ask a question?
Bronwen (12:26):
Yeah.
Jennifer (12:27):
So the coaching was the male, what was the hens that
you were using?
Bronwen (12:32):
Buff Braas.
And they were hatchery qualitybuff bras.
Looking back like they'reterrible.
They were not good stock.
They were like hatchery, butmaybe just a little below
hatchery quality.
There's other hatchery qualitybuff braas that look definitely
better than what I started outwith, for sure.
Jennifer (12:51):
Okay, so you've got, now you're at the end of this.
Second generation and you've gottwo pulls and you still got your
male.
Bronwen (13:00):
Yeah, so I decided not to go back to him because my
girls, even though they'regranddaughters of his, they're
still favoring a decent amountof coaching type.
And I was like, Ugh, I need tosomehow get away from the
coaching type.
Their cushions were a littlewonky, there's still some
things, they didn't have vulturehawks, but they certainly didn't
(13:22):
reflect the proper braa type.
So I reached out to Beach Bumdown in Florida, and Amy was
like.
I was like, what do you have formales?
And she gave me the rundown.
I'm like, my girls need this.
They need a better top line.
They need longer legs.
They need obviously a better pcomb'cause we're still working
through that.
I'm like, but they have decentleg feathering from the coach
(13:43):
and influence.
But these are the things I need.
And Amy was like, I think I havethe guy for you.
So she picked what I was lookingfor to compliment my girl's
shortcomings and she sent thisblue mail up.
Which at that point I was like,I'll take black or blue.
Like it doesn't really matter.
But because she sent me a bluenow that diversified what I
have.
(14:04):
She sent him up.
I used him to produce that thirdgeneration.
They were of course all splits.
I went heavy cuing on type.
Didn't care obviously.
'cause they weren't showing anymodeling in that third
generation.
I guess I feel like we're maybe.
I could have done differently ifI'm hindsight's 2020 if I
would've known what I know now.
(14:26):
Back in that first generation,some of those girls probably had
better type that I wasn'tfocusing on at the time.
At that point, those F1 blackgirls I was just looking for.
Big, heavy leaf feathered, biggirls.
I wasn't focusing on any kind oftype.
So had I focused on that earlyon, I probably would've made
bigger gains later on.
(14:47):
But I was just living my elmiraduff life.
I just want sweet birds.
So at the point that these thirdgeneration birds were produced,
then I was really dialing in andI really focused hard on
recessive genes.
Whether it is eliminaterecessive jeans or whether I
need to, promote recessivejeans.
(15:09):
One of my biggest things I hearpeople say all the time, it
drives me bonkers, is, you gottabuild the barn before you paint
it.
Oh, that's nice and all, buthave you ever actually done this
from scratch?
Because if you have ever donethis from the absolute bottom
up, you cannot follow thatmantra.
You cannot.
Paint a barn white.
If you are not bringing thewhite bucket along with you as
(15:31):
you go, you can't get there.
You'll never get there.
So whenever, like yellow shanks,for example, obviously these are
black birds and or blue birds.
Now at this point.
They don't wanna have yellowskin.
They don't want to.
It is very hard to promote thatyellow skin on a black bird.
(15:52):
So that was hard.
if I let go of yellow shanks,because it's a color attribute,
if we're gonna go with that, andI'm just looking at type and I
only select for type.
I'm gonna lose that yellowshank.
If I never select for modeling,I'm never gonna have a modeled
bird, so it's not a one sizefits all statement, in my
(16:14):
opinion.
It is a balance between type andcolor when you are working like
this from the bottom up.
When you don't have exhibitionquality to start, when you're
trying to claw for every littleattribute you can with each
generation, you're.
Crossing a bird with a beautifulskull to a bird with a crow
head, hoping that somehowsomebody gets long legs out of
(16:36):
the bed.
Like you're really in thetrenches of that.
And it's just not a one sizefits all statement in those
cases.
I understand why people say it,but, okay.
Let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
Jennifer (16:47):
The modeling gene?
Yes.
Is that a recessive?
Bronwen (16:50):
It is.
Jennifer (16:52):
Okay.
do the male and the female bothcarry it?
Bronwen (16:55):
You got it.
It is not sex linked.
it actually doesn't inhibit orpromote or do anything with any
other color or pattern.
It is literally a standalonegene that performs or doesn't
perform based on whether it'shomozygous or not.
So your
Jennifer (17:09):
third gener, you said your, was it your third
generation?
Yep.
Wasn't showing any model at all.
Yep.
They were all splits.
So everybody was heterozygous.
Bronwen (17:16):
You got it?
And I knew, say
Jennifer (17:18):
threat there.
Bronwen (17:19):
It had to be because my two girls were homozygous.
Okay.
And my boy didn't carry anymodeling genetics from Florida
at all.
So the girls gave every singleone of their babies one copy.
Wow.
So keeping records has ofcourse, been a thing.
(17:40):
You can definitely get somewherewith carriers, so you can make
progress with heterozygousbirds, whether it's
heterozygous, lavender,heterozygous, modeled, whatever
the gene is that you want topromote, you can get.
There with heterozygous birds,but you've gotta really keep
tight records, especially withlavender.
I don't even talk about thatbecause I don't even have
lavender on the farm'cause it'sI, but like modeling, at least
(18:03):
modeling, there's an advantagethere to other recessive genes.
With modeling, you can see ifthey are a carrier when they're
chicks.
So you can see that chick downand that juvenile feather
pattern.
You can see whether they carrymodeling or whether they don't
have any modeling.
You can see it.
Jennifer (18:24):
What are you looking for?
Bronwen (18:25):
So sometimes they just have tiny little white tips on
their feet, or their wings aremaybe on their head, but it's a
certain snapshot in time thatgives you that data.
So as babies and as juveniles,you can see it, but the minute
they start.
To feather out into their adultfeathering, it's gone.
And you will never know thatthey carry modeling ever again
(18:48):
unless you have them banded andfor certain, as chicks they
showed it.
'cause it'll be gone in theiradult feathers.
Jennifer (18:54):
So Jamie told me one time that in their armpits, if
they have white feathers intheir armpits, they carry the
model gene.
Bronwen (19:00):
Yeah, That could be.
I've not found that to be thecase.
I still have my F1 girls here, ahandful of them that are still
toddling around and they are jetblack to tip.
there's not a single speck ofwhite on them at all.
Yeah, it is tricky.
So the modeling was, I don'twanna say fall off a log easy,
(19:21):
but like the modeling was nottoo terrible.
The Millie floor has been.
Like I said, extremelychallenging and abysmal and at
least the modeling has takenoff.
So at the point that those fthrees were hatched and I was
able to then, because they wereonly carriers for modeling that
F generation back to that wholepaint the barn or, build the
barn before you paint it.
Jennifer (19:42):
And
Bronwen (19:42):
that F three generation, I really did focus
on type only because there wasnothing to focus on color.
They were only heterozygous forit.
it had worked out that everyother generation I was focusing
on one or the other to keep themmoving forward.
So that third generation, Ireally hammered down pretty hard
on type.
And then in that fourthgeneration, I was back to the
(20:05):
original where, I was only gonnaproduce 25% that were modeled.
And so again, that fourthgeneration was a ton of chicks
to hatch.
I really dialed in hard on thebirds that reflected the best
type and that were alsohomozygous modeled.
I could have kept back others,but I really wanted to call hard
(20:25):
and get there.
And so at that point then I knewlike I can stop worrying about
modeling because it'sperpetuated now everybody's
homozygous and I don't need toworry about it, So basically
from generation four on now,it's all about building the barn
because my bucket of white painthas followed me all along the
way, and I haven't lost it orleft it along the way.
(20:46):
But yeah I think one of thebiggest struggles for bras and
projects is.
we only have three acceptedvarieties.
There's not a lot out there to,you only have just a select
small genetic pool of genes thatyou can use to create anything.
And so it becomes tricky withthis particular breed to create
(21:07):
anything novel without outcrossing.
Same thing that Bumble LowHollow Farm said, they get a lot
of comments about those aren'treal bras and these aren't
purebred and all the things.
And I was like, do you guysthink a stork came and dropped
these birds with all thesecolors on it?
What do you think?
How do you think that we gothere?
Like of course that's the onlyway to do it.
Jennifer (21:26):
You have to really understand genetics.
So are you still getting singlecombs?
Bronwen (21:32):
Oh, absolutely.
Last year I got a lot of singlecombs.
Jennifer (21:35):
So
Bronwen (21:37):
I made
Jennifer (21:37):
single combs are recessive yes.
You have the two copies formedto show.
Yes.
Now I have coachings.
I don't know if you knew that ornot.
Yes.
Bronwen (21:46):
Okay.
Big old sweet boys and girls.
I know.
I love them.
Jennifer (21:50):
So the, where you were talking about, we were just
gonna expand on some of thethings you brought up.
So the yellow skin.
Yes.
The black pigment of thefeathers wants to leak into the
skin and dull the yellow.
It sure does.
So it's very important To payattention to those, any bitty
tiny details.
Bronwen (22:11):
got it.
Jennifer (22:12):
So on the coachings, you look at the pads of their
feet.
'cause those are the firstthings that kind of gray out.
Bronwen (22:17):
Gotcha.
Yeah, I've, I found that in thatthird generation, when I was
really dialed in on type, I waspicking apart my leg color
pretty hard in that generationand calling out any of those
grays.
I just know, you've got twothings working against you.
Number one, it's recessive, butnumber two, exactly like you
(22:37):
said, the black feather pigmentdoes not want to be yellow.
I learned at that point thatit's not necessarily sex linked.
But it is sex expressed.
So Ty, I was finding my malesare nice and bright yellow
compared to their sisters, forexample.
The girls are really strugglingwith that pigment, but the males
in that same hatch group look,decently bright.
(23:00):
And it's not a sex linked trait,but it is sex express.
So at that point I was like,gotcha.
Okay.
In that case.
All of my males must have yellowthat has to happen.
And the girls, I gave a littlebit more grace to if their leg
color wasn't quite as brightjust because I knew that was
gonna be a harder road to hoe toget them there.
(23:22):
But yeah, you're exactly right.
It is tough on any blackbirdthat requires yellow shanks.
Jennifer (23:27):
modeled bras, you want yellow skin.
Bronwen (23:31):
You got it.
That's the standard for bras.
Yep.
Jennifer (23:35):
And then on the center and the outer toe.
You got it.
What about on the brams?
Bronwen (23:39):
Same.
So they should not have vulturehawks, which I know is a big,
sometimes there's a lot ofconversation about whether cos
have vulture hawks or not.
The definition of vulture hawks,if we're talking milli, the du
clays which have, or thesultans, which have the really
stiff.
Vulture hawks versus the cos,which have a much softer curl to
their leg.
Feathering.
It's a combination of genes thatcreates vulture hawks and in the
(24:04):
cos it's a softer culmination ofthose feathers.
But when you cross a cochin to abra.
And the Brahma has no vulturehawks.
You 100% get chicks with vulturehawks.
So it's that combination ofjeans that heavily feathered
skirt that the cos have, and thefact that their feather quality
is so soft.
(24:24):
Yeah it, every single one of myfirst generation birds had
vulture hawks and I had to weedit out with that second
generation push.
Jennifer (24:32):
So Abra is a harder feathered bird.
Bronwen (24:34):
It should be, yes.
Jennifer (24:36):
So you're, how are you gonna move from a soft feather
to a harder feather?
Bronwen (24:40):
keep on going.
I've definitely seen in my birdsover the years a much fluffier
cushion, if you will.
So that speaks to that softerfeather, and it just speaks to
the overall type for sure.
The cushion has been something,and I think it's not unique to
me.
I think it's unique to mostproject birds.
(25:00):
That cushion is really a bear toget, like if you think about a
light braa in that beautifulclean sweep that they see that
nice flat sweep.
And then you think, like you seesome of these project birds
where their wings are tucking inand they have a waist and then
poof out comes their cushion.
I had the same issue, so I wentto the Ohio National and
exhibited for the first time inNovember, which was fantastic.
(25:23):
I've been to one poultry showbefore that, so this was my
second poultry show, and I wentto the Ohio National, brought 11
birds again, that short walk offthe deep end part.
And so I was like, I'm doing it.
So I went and I was so excited.
I was so nervous getting all mybirds tucked into their cages,
like a mom with their kid goingto school on kindergarten or
something.
And then finally when I stopped.
(25:45):
Looked around me at the otherBrahmas that were in the cages
around me.
I was like, oh dang, I
Jennifer (25:52):
have a
Bronwen (25:53):
long way to go.
Oh my gosh.
And I, you think your birds lookgreat, and then you look up and
you're like, oh no.
Yeah, they're trash.
Okay.
Gosh, there's just so much.
And that rigidity of feather,the feather quality, being thin
versus, a thicker featherquality.
All of those things.
(26:14):
Once I got my hands on otherexhibitors, birds, of course,
with her permission and they onmine, I was like, okay, yeah, I
see what y'all are talking aboutnow.
Yeah.
Such a eye-opening experiencewonderful.
Of course.
But yeah, it was a lot to takein for sure.
Carey (26:30):
I saw your birds at the Ohio National and they stood up
pretty well to the ones next to'em.
Bronwen (26:39):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
But I.
The ones that I brought wereyoung.
I think there are other birdsthat were puls in the exhibit
hall were also the same age, andthey just were not the right
size.
So I, when I went home, I waslike, okay, we gotta get serious
about amping up the size ofthese suckers.
We've gotta get bigger and we'vejust gotta get there.
(27:02):
the birds that I exhibited werejust my fifth generation.
in my first and secondgeneration, once I decided that
this is what I was gonna do, Iwas like, get there in what?
A couple years blind ambition.
Jennifer (27:14):
I, as you're trying to get rid of some of the coaching
stuff, and transform it over myodd question.
I'm just wondering how long, howmany generations before you got
rid of the beetle brow.
Bronwen (27:27):
So bra are
Jennifer (27:28):
bras don't have that right.
Bronwen (27:29):
They are supposed to have it
Jennifer (27:33):
as heavy as a coaching.
Bronwen (27:34):
I'm probably the last person to answer that question
specifically, but yeah, they aredefinitely supposed to be like
resting Brahma face angry.
Speed brow.
Like they're definitely supposedto have that, heavy wide
Carey (27:49):
resting Brahma face.
That's it.
That's what we're calling it.
Bronwen (27:52):
They're definitely supposed to have that heavy
brow.
Some of the exhibition lightsare so heavy, real similar to
the coachings.
I think maybe you don't see itas often in the exhibit halls
because you're not seeing asmany.
Quality bras that have thatattribute.
But yeah, they really aresupposed to have that.
Big old knobby bonker head likethey're can't see.
Jennifer (28:14):
So if somebody doesn't know what a beetle brow is,
that's like, where it like thatwas that guy from Dennis the
menace.
His eyebrows were really heavyand they hung down.
Yeah.
So like on my coachings, if youcome up above them, like they're
standing at your feet and youcome down on them, they cannot
see you.
Yes.
Their brow is.
So heavy.
Yes.
(28:34):
Like they're blind.
They up looking up, they should
Bronwen (28:37):
look like the red angry bird.
Yes, exactly.
So yeah they, that's how theyshould look.
So in that respect, that shouldbe something we perpetuate
through the line.
I think one of the harder thingsjust in brass in general is to
get that length of back.
And that's something I've reallystruggled with.
And that's just been a selectionthing over time.
(28:58):
Just keep picking the ones outthat are just a little bit wider
and a little bit longer, andover time you finally get to a
place I hope.
But yeah, I think that length ofback is really another thing.
I've got a, several with ashorter.
Maybe they have a nice sweep andmaybe they don't have that
pinched waist and that fluffycushion, but they certainly
(29:21):
still have a short back.
I think
Jennifer (29:23):
that's something that we work on a lot of breeds.
This year I'm, that's one of mypoints on the Orpingtons, and so
one of my mentors said that Ineed to put my hands on the
backs.
Of the boys and instead ofstanding to the side and looking
at their profile where, how longis their back?
(29:43):
You actually need to put yourhands on'em.
Feel their back and make surethat end of that bone continues
on and it's not just beingexasperated by the fluff, per
se.
Bronwen (29:56):
One of my mentors Lisa at the Ohio National, she had
her hands on mine as well, andshe let me when you.
Of course she was exhibitinghens, not puls, but at the same
time, like just the mass ofthese birds between the darks.
She and Scott were bothexhibiting darks at that time,
and just the mass on these birdswas just incredible.
She said, go into your coop andeither be blindfold or do it at
(30:19):
night so you're not biased,because I definitely have seen
myself over the time and overthe years.
Get coop blind and be biased tomy own.
I had someone come to my coopone time and they're like I
wouldn't use that one.
I was like, what?
What do you mean that one?
Why do you mean not that one?
it was one of my Millie floorpens, and she was like I think
he has a squirrel tail.
I was like, shut up.
(30:39):
He does has he been there thiswhole time?
What?
How did I not, yeah,
Jennifer (30:44):
but you do get coop blind.
Bronwen (30:45):
You do?
And Lisa recommended, she's gointo your coop.
With a blindfold or do it atnight and just feel them, touch
them, feel them.
So you are not biased on whoyou're touching and what, like
just then just make somedecisions based on what you're
feeling.
I was like, Ooh, that's a goodidea.
Yeah, because even still, yeah.
Jennifer (31:02):
So one of the orpingtons that I ended up
choosing to go in the breederpen, which actually went in a
couple days ago.
He was one that I had actuallythrown out to be put in the pot.
And he was out growing out andafter, you have these
conversations with your mentorson what to look for and stuff.
And I pulled up on the gator outto the barn and he's standing
(31:24):
there looking at me and I waslike, ha, that's what he was
talking about right there.
Yeah.
So he doesn't have a lot elsegoing for him, but I can use his
progeny.
For going forward.
Bronwen (31:41):
So I am super picky about my males.
I actually don't make anydecisions on my girls until I
have solidified my males becauseI find that it is so difficult.
To get the males.
I feel like you are covering thewhole pen.
Poof.
It's a lot of power in thatgenetic pool from your male.
And so since my girls, my F twogirls were only just a handful
(32:07):
of generations away from ablack, from a buff bra.
Even though they weren't show,my girls weren't showing any
leakage.
I knew they were packing it.
And so when I bred them to thebeach bum guy that third
generation, I got oodles ofleakage out of those progeny.
And so I was like, I'm not doingit.
I'm picking it all out.
So they were beautiful males,nice top lines, long legs,
(32:29):
beautiful combs.
I'm like, Do the pot.
Do the pot.
Do the pot.
You're leaking.
And out of that F threegeneration, I got two boys out
of all those babies that did notshow leakage.
one Black and happened to be oneblue.
And at that point I was like,okay, We're starting clans.
So that was clan one and clantwo, and the black ones type was
(32:49):
not good.
It was not good, but he wascrispy.
He had no leakage.
And I was like, we gotta work onthat'cause that's gonna be hard
to get rid of.
And I knew it was coming from mygirls.
At the end of the day, once I'veselected my males, I'm down to
just a handful that are notleaking, that have decent type
and all the things.
(33:10):
Then I circle up my girls andpick, who's gonna compensate
them.
So this year I've been able tostart a third clan.
So finally now I have threeclans going with clean mails.
I understand that the right wayto do it.
To get rid of leakage is singlemating.
Just, I'm just, I'm not in it.
(33:32):
I'm not in it.
So I can do it.
I don't know.
Have the space, time, energy,all the things.
I know it's the right thing todo and maybe someday.
But I don't know.
It's just a lot of girls insingle cages and I don't know.
I work outside the homefull-time.
This is just, this should be funfor me.
And I resonated so much withyour podcast with the United
(33:52):
Orpington.
Was she the present, Sarah?
Yeah.
I resonated so much with whatshe said and she was like, if
you don't like what you'refeeding out there, like you got,
I've said the same thing, likethe day that this is not fun for
me or enjoyable for me.
If this is not satisfying myinner elmira duff and I can't go
out there and scoop up thesebirds and squeeze them and hug
them, and maybe that makes meless.
(34:14):
Of a breeder because that'simportant to me.
I don't care.
It's fun for me.
And if the day that becomes notfun for me, like this is too
hard for this to not beenjoyable, like not around in
the winter and
Jennifer (34:26):
oh yeah.
All the things we have toremember sometimes remind
ourselves that this is our farmand this is our rules and we're
the only ones really that weneed to please.
Bronwen (34:36):
Yeah.
It's just a bird.
It's not that deep.
Yeah.
So I think if I had to go tosingle mating and I had to build
an infrastructure to supportthat, yes I could.
Would it be fun for me?
Probably not.
Oh man.
I'm just not there.
Maybe I will never be there.
I don't know.
So at any rate, I just try toselect the clean males and keep
(34:56):
like diluting out that leakage,I would say.
Now finally, I'm down to about10% of my boys.
Out of every hatch that areleaking.
So that's a far cry from where Iwas.
I was more like 85% at thebeginning.
So I don't know.
I'll just keep chipping away atit.
I'm not in a race.
(35:17):
I'm not winning anything.
I'm just here for trying toimprove, anyway, so let's wrap
Jennifer (35:22):
up a little
Bronwen (35:23):
bit.
Sure.
Jennifer (35:23):
where is this project in the a PA system?
Bronwen (35:28):
Nowhere.
Okay.
So that's the other thing.
This is the part that I waslike, man, I've been thinking
about it for several years.
I hear a lot of people say, ohgosh, your birds are great.
And all the things.
I'm like, thanks.
But there's imports out therethat are also black modeled.
So they obviously don't adhereto the a PA standard for Brams,
but what's gonna set me and myefforts apart from anyone else
(35:52):
who's been doing this I don'tknow, for me to let go of this
product and allow my birds to gosomewhere like I haven't allowed
exhibition or any kind ofquality, leave my farm.
I'm just not there yet.
I'm not ready, I don't wannaperpetuate, poor quality.
'cause there's already, we'realready struggling.
The Brams in general are justnot a super popular breed, so
(36:14):
they're already struggling as awhole.
I don't know.
I told Scott when he was workingon his golds, I was like, you go
first.
And I'm right behind you, buddy.
Good job.
I'm I think eventually I wouldreally like to partner with
breeders that are serious aboutmoving this.
Variety forward.
I don't know if it's a pipedream or if it's realistic,
(36:36):
maybe.
So where it goes from here, Idon't know.
The disadvantage to Brahmas andall the project colors that are
going is that there is nostandard that anyone is adhering
to for any of these projects,aside from like gold.
Of course, It's better now thanit was.
Three years ago, two years agoeven.
The community is growing, thesupport is growing.
(36:59):
We are in each other's backpockets, supporting and advising
and trying to get there.
But truly, all the way up untilthis point there's varieties all
over the place.
There's lace, there's, pencil,salmon, all kinds of things, but
there's no standard.
And if we're not promoting, somekind of a standard to draw
people to a middle ground, we'rejust willy-nilly making birds
(37:22):
left and right.
my goal would be to try to getthese guys approved, but man, I
just think it's such a stretchto even think that way.
But yeah, it would be great ifwe could.
It sure would be great if wecould.
Jennifer (37:35):
We have seriously enjoyed having you on today.
It was.
Very eye-opening.
Actually.
I never really thought aboutcreating a whole new variety
from scratch.
Bronwen (37:49):
Yeah.
It wasn't on purpose.
I there was actually.
During that second generationwhen I had a couple milli Flo
Birds that maybe, were, yeah,that pattern is just, that's a
whole nother topic.
But during that effort, theimports were starting to arrive
on shore and they were startingto really be sold out to
whomever and had pockets tospend and with no agenda and no
(38:12):
standard.
And people were just reproducingand producing and selling all
over the place.
And someone had told me like,it's not even gonna matter that
you're doing this because thesebirds are gonna be all over the
continent in a matter ofwhatever amount of time.
I was like, yeah, that may betrue, and that person was not
wrong.
But all of those birds are notbred to the standard.
(38:33):
And then that was the momentwhere when everyone went left
and we're like, we're gonna dothe import thing, I was like,
I'm going.
That's the only thing that'sgoing to make any of this
different than what you guyshave just gotten from across the
pond.
So that kind of catapulted intothis.
Like I said, short walk off thedeep end.
Jennifer (38:52):
There you go.
it takes somebody to start it.
Yeah.
Carey (38:56):
Yeah.
You gotta start somewhere.
Jennifer (38:58):
We have seriously enjoyed having you today and
hope you come back.
Bronwen (39:01):
I would be happy to come back.
Thanks so much for having me.
This has been great.
I really appreciate it.
All right.
Talk to you soon.
Okay.
Carey (39:08):
Bye.
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