September 19, 2024 • 39 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carey (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the Poultry Nerds podcast, where
feathers meet fun.
Your podcast hosts are CareyBlackmon and Jennifer Bryant.
Together they work hard to bringyou the latest news and
information from the excitingworld of poultry.
Sit back and get ready for someeggciting interviews and some
(00:20):
foul facts on this episode ofPoultry Nerds.
Thanks for tuning in.
Jennifer (00:31):
The D-E-C-V-A-A, what is that?
Dr. Hopster (00:34):
That means that I have a European specialization
in veterinary anesthesia.
So I I went to vet school inGermany where I'm from and
that's the DMV.
It's.
Doctor of veterinary medicine orDr.
Medved.
And then then I decided to focuson the academic side of academia
(01:02):
with a stronger focus onteaching a small focus on
research and a quite small focuson clinics.
That is the PD.
So that's a three year programthat is comparable to a master's
in education.
It's quite specific for Germanspeaking countries.
And then and then my specializedtraining in veterinary
(01:24):
anesthesia, that is the DECVAAand which means a Diplomat of
the European College ofVeterinary Anesthesia and
Analgesia.
And then the PhD is a regularPhD.
Jennifer (01:39):
Oh, that's just normal.
Just run of the mill stuff, huh?
And then you made the mistake ofsending me an email with your
big long signature on the emailand I tackled you for a podcast
Dr. Hopster (01:50):
interview.
That is correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I reached out because we figuredwe couldn't figure out why they
were not laying.
Jennifer (02:00):
Are they doing well now?
Dr. Hopster (02:01):
They are doing incredibly well.
And I'm really impressed ontheir dependence on the game
bird's layers feed.
Because we did what yourecommended, right?
We changed their light regimen.
And so we changed coop positiona tiny little bit and switched
the food and it took about aweek and they started laying
really well an egg a day perquail.
And and then.
(02:22):
After, I would say, two months,maybe, there was a switch up
when we ordered the food and wegot not the game bird layer
feed, but normal game bird feed,which we didn't really realize
and And the only reason we didrealize this switch in food is
because they stopped layingafter about 10 days.
Jennifer (02:43):
Interesting.
You got them straightened backout now though?
Dr. Hopster (02:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We switched food and now theyare back in the game.
Jennifer (02:52):
Yeah.
I don't, I know.
I never recommend the game birdlayer for the Coturnix.
It seems like it always causesissues, but I do have it for the
button quail because they needit, that high metabolism, they
need it.
I didn't bring you here to talkabout your quail, necessarily.
So we we asked you to be here totalk about just the birds
(03:15):
respiratory system so you canget a better idea of how it
works and why it's differentfrom ours.
So can you overview that forpeople who are new to birds?
Dr. Hopster (03:27):
Yeah, I can have to say that the respiratory system
of birds is it's from anevolutionary perspective quite
impressive.
Their gas exchange design issubstantially more effective
than ours.
The only species that might bemaybe a little bit more
(03:48):
effective in that regards arefish.
Which is likely because theylive in a really low oxygen
environment.
But what birds can do due totheir very special on a,
anatomical design of therespiratory system is they can
make gas exchange and they canuptake oxygen during inspiration
(04:09):
and during expiration.
And that makes them twice aseffective as us.
Just Just as a reminder, right?
The way we breathe is we inhaleand then our lungs expand from
the negative pressure that ourchest develops during
inspiration, right?
When we do this deep breath in.
(04:29):
So the lung expands, which if wewant to simplify, it looks a
little bit like one big balloon.
So this balloon expands, oxygenenters and then We make gas
exchange, which is the transferof oxygen from the air into the
blood.
And then we exhale.
And during exhalation, we exhalethe gas now that has not much
(04:51):
oxygen left and a little bit ofCO2.
So our oxygen uptake is when youlook In the respiratory cycle
quite short out of one minute,it's about 10 to 12 seconds that
be effectively take oxygen intoour blood.
And that seems to work quitewell for us.
So what birds do in contrast isthey have and.
(05:15):
Some people might have heardthat, right?
They have a set of so called airsacs, a total of nine that is
pretty similar amongst allbirds.
So they have nine air sacs andand so four in the front and
then one at the side and thenfour in the back.
And what happens duringinspiration is the gas, um,
(05:38):
enters the lungs like it wouldwith us and it enters all air
sacs.
And during inspiration, it flowsby a tubing system.
So birds lungs are not a bigballoon.
They are more tubes.
And while it flows by thesetubes we, they do gas exchange,
right?
So there's blood in the onedirection, there's one tube and
(06:01):
air in the other direction.
That's the other tube.
And while they basically pass byeach other, oxygen transfers
from the air into the blood.
And as I mentioned, so all airsacs get filched during
inspiration, but the back airsacs, the caudal ones.
They basically get all the airthat bypasses the lungs.
(06:22):
Whereas the front air sacs, theyget all the fresh air that is
not that has not bypassed thelungs.
So at the end of Inspirationwhere the bird already did some
gas exchange via this tubularsystem, there is now one set of
air that is filling the caudalair sacs that is basically used.
(06:42):
And there's a fresh set of airthat is filling the cranial, the
frontal air sacs that is stillfresh.
And then during expiration, thegas from the caudal air sacs
gets exhaled, and the gas fromthe frontal air sacs again
bypasses the lung while it'sgetting exhaled.
So the bird is abled, with thisvery special and quite
(07:04):
fascinating anatomical design,to to fill the lung with fresh
air and make gas exchange anduptake oxygen during inspiration
as we would, but also duringexpiration.
So they basically constantlyhave fresh air bypassing the
blood and they can constantlyuptake oxygen.
Jennifer (07:23):
Super interesting.
I followed all of that.
Carey (07:27):
I caught myself taking notes!
Jennifer (07:30):
So the reason for the air sacs is what?
Dr. Hopster (07:34):
So the main reason for the air sacs is a, it cools
the birds down, right?
There's always air, which is atbest room temperature.
So it cools the birds down.
And the other reason for the airsacs is it's basically a
constant reservoir of freshoxygen.
And these are the two mainmechanisms of the air sacs.
Jennifer (07:56):
Does it have anything to do with their ability to fly
like their buoyancy or anythinglike that?
Or no,
Dr. Hopster (08:04):
no.
Okay.
A bird could fly without thiscomplex air sacs system.
That, that is purely mechanicsand their wings.
So the air sacs really do thesetwo main things.
Which is a huge advantage whenit comes to oxygen uptake, and
to meet their high metabolicneeds, because it's a quite
(08:25):
energy consuming event, flying.
It comes with disadvantages aswell, right?
Because people could ask if theyare such.
such a strong evolutionaryadvantage of having this kind of
lung or respiratory system, whywouldn't all animals have that?
And things that the birds can'tdo with their lungs, for
(08:46):
example, is filter as preciselyas we can do that with our very
complex airway system.
That's why we are much morerobust when it comes to upper
airway contamination, whichmight be something we want to
touch later, right?
Aspergillosis, for example.
We have a much, much betterdeveloped airway immune system.
(09:09):
The way our airways are builtthey become very small.
And the airflow really drops.
from fast to really slow, whichhelps filtering all these
particles out.
So that is one big advantage ofour airway system in contrast to
birds.
That's why they sometimes don'tdo well if they fly and have
really extensive gas exchange.
And another reason what we dowith our lungs that birds, for
(09:32):
example, can't do, and that isrelevant for me as an
anesthesiologist is we use ourlungs to metabolize things.
drugs to get rid of them, forexample, propofol, a quite
popular or well knownanesthetic.
The older ones of us mightremember Michael Jackson and the
propofol incident.
So our lungs help usmetabolizing propofols.
(09:56):
Birds can't do that.
So they are much more sensitiveto certain drugs that require
pulmonary metabolism.
And then the third big thingthat our lungs do is they store
a lot of blood.
It's basically a blood reservoirin case that we have to
mobilize.
And that is something that thebirds also can't do.
(10:16):
So it's a trade, right?
We decided we have lessermetabolic needs.
But we have a more robust immunesystem.
We have a little bit of bloodstorage and a little bit of
metabolism.
Whereas the bird to the side Ineed oxygen all the time.
And there is only 21 percent inthe ambient air.
So I need to do whatever ittakes to make my gas exchange as
(10:36):
effective as possible.
Jennifer (10:39):
Okay.
So two questions come to mind.
One, I see people with birdsthat have enlarged air sacs and
they use a needle to deflatethem.
Is that.
What is that?
And should you use a needle todeflate them?
Dr. Hopster (10:58):
Yeah, so sometimes air can be entrapped.
For example, if we know thisfrom ourselves, if we have
chronic respiratory diseasesthen over time our airways
become lesser patent, lesserelastic, and then it can, And
then birds can develop so calledair trapping, which can inflate
their air sacs a little bit.
(11:20):
If that is the case justdeflating the air sacs is make
it make Yeah, might give somerelief in the moment, but it's
not really a treatment of theissue.
And usually that's redevelopsquite quickly.
Another thing that people needto be quite careful with is if
you use a normal needle and nota special medical needle that is
(11:43):
hollow Therefore allows the gasto basically leave the bird.
If you just poke a hole in theair sac, you might you might
risk emphysema development,meaning that the air might leave
the air sac, but it's stilltrapped in the bird.
So it is usually best to to usespecial equipment.
(12:03):
If they are doing, if they arevery calm and very quiet.
You can try to do it yourself,but usually these birds do best
if they are at least mildlysedated or well restrained
because entering and exitingwith a needle, we always think
it might cause a small hole, butif you actually enter a very
(12:27):
inflated balloon with a needle,you will see that they erupt.
And worst case scenario, you canactually burst the air sac.
And that might be a deathsentence for this bird.
Because then during inhalation,it would just entrap more and
more air until they couldn'tbreathe anymore.
Jennifer (12:45):
Okay, if you did nothing, could the bird
eventually fix this inflated airsac itself?
Dr. Hopster (12:52):
Yeah, if it's not severe and you find the
reasoning for this inflated airsac, for example a respiratory
issue and you treat thatrespiratory issue Okay.
Then there's a very good chancethat the secondary symptom or
problem, right?
The inflated air sag thismeteorism would then resolve
once the underlying issue isresolved.
Jennifer (13:15):
We're not sticking to my outline.
You've got me, like, allsidetracked and I'm having to
think.
Dr. Hopster (13:20):
Yeah, I realize that.
Carey (13:22):
This the show is called Poultry Nerds and this is
actually really bringing out thegeek inside of me and I'm really
getting into learning about thisand I didn't, I did, I would
have never imagined that a birdbreathing has nine air sacs and
it's such a, they're taking inand they're inhaling and
(13:43):
exhaling at the same time.
I would have never thought that.
Dr. Hopster (13:47):
It is.
The concept is brilliant.
Yeah, sorry.
Go ahead.
Jennifer (13:52):
I was reading a paper last night as I was trying to
wrap my brain around talking toyou, and it said they actually
inhaled twice.
For the exhale.
So the second
Dr. Hopster (14:03):
inhalation is a little bit longer.
That's why they have this thisuneven number of air sacs,
right?
So in the, they can make theinspiratory period very long and
the expiratory period a littlebit shorter, which is quite the
opposite of how we breathe.
If you I always tell my studentsNot now because now everyone is
at alert, but during the nextlecture, when some of them have
forgotten, they should casuallyobserve in a non creeping way,
(14:25):
their neighbor.
and see how they breathe.
And they will realize thatexhalation takes a really long
time.
And then there's the pause,right?
Then we do a brief inhalation ora deep breath, and then a long
exhalation.
And the bird is much morelinear, constantly breathing
with a nice ratio of one and ahalf to one, right?
With constant airflow, constantoxygen uptake, which is super
(14:49):
effective.
That's why they do so well,still quite well, right?
At high altitudes.
When the barometric pressuredrops, we might still have 21
percent oxygen, but we have somuch lesser oxygen particles,
right?
If you go up to Mount Everestthat's why we only go up there
with an oxygen bottle, right?
When the barometric pressuredrops.
(15:09):
By 40 percent or so, wetheoretically have 40 percent
less oxygen available, which isa problem for us, but not for a
bird.
They do incredibly well in lowoxygen environments because they
are so incredibly effective.
Jennifer (15:24):
Super interesting.
Carrie is just like grinningfrom ear to ear on the nerdy
stuff here.
Carey (15:29):
I can't help it.
It's very interesting because,as he's sitting here talking
about how They breathe fasterand stuff.
I think I'm real bad about goingout and sitting in the yard
where my birds are.
I have chickens and quail and,I'll watch the quail and they
breathe extremely fast and mychickens do too.
(15:52):
And, I just never really thoughtabout why but, now I realize
that it's a lot more efficient.
And it works.
Yeah, it does.
Jennifer (16:05):
I have to attribute the question then before we move
on to my next set of questions.
So would a hummingbird breathefaster than say a big old
turkey?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
So one last question on thispart of it.
So we have a diaphragm, whichsqueezes our lungs, right?
So we don't have a diaphragm.
So what's squeezing that air inand out?
(16:27):
The chest itself,
Dr. Hopster (16:29):
the chest movement.
And it's usually really wellsynchronized.
It's usually really wellsynchronized with their wing
movement.
Particularly during flying.
That is something that manyanimals do a horse, for example,
when it gallops.
It synchronizes, its breathingto its strides, and the bird
does the same because it's veryenergy efficient, right?
(16:50):
They use the movement anywayseither to fly or to move
forward.
Why not using the movement alsoto move gas in and out?
So they do this with with theirchest movement quite
extensively.
And because they don't have thediaphragm as their main
respiratory muscle.
Which is an advantage from anfrom a body cavity perspective,
(17:11):
right?
Because therefore they have muchmore space for the air sacs, but
it is a disadvantage.
For example, when when they havesome kind of lacerations or
wounds, if we have a, if we havea wound and it involves our
abdomen, we can still breathe.
We will have other problems, butbreathing is not altered because
the chest is still a veryenclosed space.
(17:32):
If that happens to a bird, theywill start struggling with
breathing.
We will see this.
Even small wounds a bite wound,for example they will start
struggling with breathing.
much more than we would.
Jennifer (17:46):
Interesting.
Okay.
So now let's talk about likerespiratory infections, colds,
that kind of stuff.
So mammals have tonsils and allother, I don't know, all the
anatomy stuff that's all up inthere to gather dust and keep
it, keep our lungs clean.
(18:08):
So how do birds keep that stuffout of their lungs and air sacs
I guess?
Dr. Hopster (18:15):
Yeah.
And and that, that is for birdsa little bit more tricky, right?
They have a lesser fine andlesser advanced developed immune
system, but also pure cleaningsystem.
So the first thing that birds dois when the air enters rise
through the nostrils and thenose into the trachea, because
that is something that a birdhas like we have that too.
(18:37):
There's a very small they arevery small cilia, right?
Little They look a little bitlike, like very small feathers
that that are all over themucosa of the trachea and they
are in constant movement.
And usually what happens whenyou inhale quite fast and fast
inhalation, when it enters anarrow space or a narrow tube
(18:59):
like the bird's airway becomesvery turbulent.
So you go from a low to a highpressure.
That's a little bit like agarden hose phenomenon, right?
When you have the same amount ofwater and you just narrow the
garden hose, you just increasethe pressure.
the pressure.
Same happens here.
So you increase the pressure.
This increase in pressure thenhits the trachea wall and starts
(19:22):
to become really turbulent.
And this turbulence is quitehelpful.
Because it leads to the airhaving a lot of contact time
with the with the airway wallwhile it's traveling downwards,
in a spiral.
And then all the rough dirt anddust, some microbes and some
very small particles.
(19:44):
Are then caught by these ciliathat are along the trachea wall
and they, they move constantlyin waves and the wave and the
wave like movement of the ciliaalways goes towards the nose.
So these small and dust andparticles are then caught.
And the cilia, while moving,move them back upwards, and then
(20:06):
at the end for us that will besnot is something that the bird
can then cough out and that isreally that is really important
to keep the air that then entersthe lung as clean as possible.
Because the air sacs themselveshave only very limited capacity
to for defense against eithersmaller particles or even
(20:28):
bacteria microbes or virusesthat enter air sacs.
So the most effective way forthe airway to basically clean
itself up is it's a wash outeffect of fresh air.
Therefore it is important,right?
For birds to either have a lotof access to fresh air so that
(20:49):
they can constantly breathe.
And that is why birds That canmove more, right?
That are not contained in smallin small spaces, but can either
move or if they are supposed tofly, that they can fly or run a
little bit to really actuallyactivate their breathing system.
That's why they usually do Dosubstantially better.
And then the last thing that isis really important for the
(21:13):
immune and defense mechanism ofthe airway of of alien lungs.
Is they have a very speciallymphatic system that that if
there should be any kind oftransfer of particles or
microorganisms that thislymphatic system immediately
filters that and transports itaway before it can cause any
(21:34):
kind of systematic or systemicdamage.
Jennifer (21:38):
Does it put it out as an exhale or filter it through
the liver and?
Yeah, if it's,
Dr. Hopster (21:45):
once it enters, it would be filtered through
through liver and kidneys andthen excreted either via the
bile and then with the feces,right?
Or as giving that birds don'thave a lot of urine.
Jennifer (21:59):
Okay.
I'm wrapping my brain aroundeverything.
Come on, Carey.
You got a question.
Carey (22:07):
1 of my questions involves avian influenza.
Yes, I know that is a huge thingthat hits a lot of different
areas.
And I have always wondered if abird's nutrition did not help
build their immune system and ifit was possible for them to not
(22:29):
get sick because they had areally good immune system.
Or how, what's the sciencebehind all that?
How does that work?
And is there anything that canbe done?
To help prevent or is it justone of those things
Dr. Hopster (22:45):
That is a fantastic question.
And will require a little bitbroader answer.
Because avian influenza right isa viral infection that mainly
affects the airways.
And this question is a brilliantquestion when it comes to viral
infections that affect theairways, right?
And now that we just barely lefta pandemic with with a strong
(23:09):
association to airwayinfections, I think this topic
is is really broad, incrediblyimportant.
And to answer it, particularlyfor avian influenza and and It's
target species, birds.
Yes, we can do certain dietarymeasures to improve immune
function.
In general, and in particular,when it comes to the pulmonary
(23:31):
immune function, we can'tprevent fully infection just by
nutrition.
But as it is with us thehealthier the individual the
better we treat ourselves andour bodies, the more likely it
is That that we will either beable to, to immune fight the
(23:51):
infection if the viral load islow enough and allows that if
the viral load is too high andexposure is just too aggressive
good nutrition will still helpyou to if you're an overall good
health, you might still have amuch better chance to to to not
become severely sick and maybehave a have lesser severe
(24:12):
symptoms, the faster recoverytime and a few specifics when it
comes to immune function, right?
So some vitamins and someminerals essential for a
functioning immune system.
Vitamin a, for example it'squite crucial when it comes to
overall maintaining healthymucosal surfaces.
(24:33):
And that is in these kinds ofproblems, that's mainly the
airway mucosa, right?
There's active cilia movementsthat these are all healthy and
doing well.
That would also be thegastrointestinal tract when we
will, when we would look atother diseases.
So making sure that the, thatthese animals are well supported
then what we likely know vitaminE, it's a very important
(24:55):
antioxidant that that supportsthe immune function and that
helps keeping immune cellshealthy.
Healthy and active.
It prevents a little bit immunecell degeneration.
Same would be true for selenium.
Then zinc is It's something thatthat can support cell healing
(25:17):
and cell function and thereforetheoretically also wound
healing, right?
If you just look at the immunesystem and vitamin and mineral
support But also, as wediscussed earlier an appropriate
protein and energy level isreally important, right?
If you want to maintain ahealthy flock or healthy
individual birds that they arethat they are in good shape,
(25:40):
that they have enough energy tofight off infections, that they
have enough energy to regenerateproper.
If it comes to any kind of otherdiseases and then because most
of our organ systems are linked,um, it is also not unimportant
to to think about other organsystems, like for example the
gastrointestinal system, and guthealth and and then and then
(26:04):
overall.
despite good nutrition is thengood housing.
If you are concerned if yourbirds show any kind of symptoms,
that you have a stress flip or alow stress environment, that
they have time to properlygenerate.
We can oftentimes translate alot from us and our health to
healthcare of animals, when weare not feeling well.
(26:25):
It helps us to stay in bed,right?
Proper regenerate, have a lowstress low energy environment
now and then get some fresh air,right?
My, my grandma always said toair out your lungs, which is
certainly true, right?
The older I get, the more Irealized I should have listened
even more to what these smartpeople had to say.
(26:48):
And that is something that youcan.
Absolutely.
Apply to to your birds as well.
Jennifer (26:54):
Wow.
Okay.
So I would like to ask you acouple of questions from a new
chicken keepers point of view.
If chickens are sneezing orcoughing a little bit, or just
sound a little bit raspy.
I know what I do, but what wouldyou suggest that they do first
(27:17):
before they start to panic?
Dr. Hopster (27:18):
The last time I had a problem with my chickens and
it's likely that I would do thesame again, I would reach out to
an experienced to an experiencedchicken keeper.
I believe that I can say that,giving that I am in that
profession.
I think that that many of mycolleagues as great as they are,
right.
And as fantastic as they workand as well trained as they are.
(27:41):
oftentimes just lack this lastpiece of experience, right?
The true self experience that isoftentimes needed to a identify
a problem proper.
And then also to realize when isit appropriate to react and
respond?
And when is it appropriate,which kind of problems can I sit
out and wait out?
And back to my grandma, thereare oftentimes a few household
(28:05):
tips that are.
That carry much lesser sideeffects as effective and maybe
cause substantially lesserstress for your birds, because
The scenario that I'm alwaysafraid of is right.
So I have a, I have a.
I have a quail and this quailhas maybe a little bit of nasal
(28:26):
discharge or maybe breathe thisa little bit different than the
other quails.
And if I now overreact and catchthis bird and take it out of its
used environment and away fromits friends and drag it to a
place and then there's, and thenthere's Then there is
diagnostics may be done, right?
And maybe blood is taken andmaybe a radiograph, right?
As we usually tend to do that toever get a better idea of the
(28:48):
lungs.
And then and then I get theadvice to to apply fresh air a
little bit of supplements andvitamins.
Then I feel that, You might havenot only lost a substantial
amount of money, but the, butthis poor bird also substantial
amount of energy that it mighthave invested better into into
healing, right?
The risk is always if it's aninfectious disease you want to
(29:11):
catch that early and maybeseparate a little bit if you
have this opportunity, but myadvice will always be reach out
to to maybe your neighbor, yourfriend or if you are really
fresh chicken chicken father tothe person that you bought these
these chickens from and ask fortheir advice, right?
Describe it.
Have you seen that before aswell?
(29:32):
What did you do?
Did it work?
Because experience is soinvaluable.
And and if you get your birdsfrom the right people they will
help you.
They will follow up and theyknow what to do a hundred
percent.
Jennifer (29:46):
So just for your information if one of my birds
sneezes, I don't really even, Imay not even notice until maybe
a week later, if they're stilldoing it.
But all of my birds are outside.
They're on grass.
The chickens are fresh air undersunshades, open to the elements.
(30:07):
And I just, if one of them justdoesn't seem like he's feeling
all that well, I'll just throwthem out in the yard.
Here you go, sink or swim.
And almost 99 percent of thetime they swim because they just
needed that, the fresh air, thegrass, the sunshine, the, the
natural elements, yeah.
(30:28):
A little bit of
Dr. Hopster (30:28):
sun, a little bit of vitamin D, a little bit of
warmth.
Jennifer (30:32):
Yeah, I think people get so worried about predators
that they tend to lock them uptoo tight, and that's a
ventilation issue.
My coops are mostly hardwarecloth.
They actually have very littlesolid structure walls.
They're almost all hardwarecloth.
(30:54):
And people just freak out whenthey see them sometimes.
And, but I don't get sickchickens, you
Carey (31:00):
know,
Jennifer (31:00):
constantly, or they're in the cold air, they're in the
breeze.
They get wet when it rains, justlike they did, a thousand years
ago,
Carey (31:10):
that's how they get that vigor.
Dr. Hopster (31:13):
Yeah.
I think you are a hundredpercent right.
My sister has quails too.
She still lives in Germany.
They have about 40 quails.
And I, and I asked her what shedoes when it was so hot here in
Pennsylvania in July, I askedher what if, what she does if
she would move them to a shipinto the shade, into the cold or
a fan and said, no just leavethese poor birds alone.
(31:36):
Being birds.
She says they have a nice way toto get used to these temperature
changes, she says, and they willjust do fine much better than if
you now start moving them aroundand doing all kinds of things
and and try artificially toimprove their welfare.
Jennifer (31:52):
Yeah.
Just let them be a bird.
Dr. Hopster (31:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer (31:56):
All right.
So at what point then would yousuggest if somebody were to go
to the medical route at whatpoint would it be prudent to go
see a veterinarian?
Dr. Hopster (32:10):
I would, um, if it's, if you have a small flock
of birds because it's a hobbybird system, otherwise I would
recommend that you should see aveterinarian quite regularly,
right?
If this is if this is yourincome and you have thousands of
of layers, for example, like mybrother in law has, They have
they have a very nice layingfarm with, I think 28, 000
(32:32):
chickens and he has the vetthere every week.
And
Carey (32:35):
they
Dr. Hopster (32:39):
have a quite nice setup.
Because they they do this inNorth Germany and they, um,
they, they have these birds haveinside opportunities, but they
are all free range.
And he, they have the vet therequite regularly, for water
analysis.
And they do a brief walkthroughmaking sure that they are not
right next to each other.
(33:00):
Excessive amount of animalslooking dull or something like
that.
But but if I look at my my veryproud four quails my four golden
girls I would say if I would beable to identify, which is
tough, right?
Because they all feed from thesame area.
But if I would identify one thatis a true outlier dull not
(33:21):
wanting to move when I engagethem maybe in lateral
recumbency, excessive, veryweird breathing pattern for a
prolonged period of time, coupleof days, I think that I would
start seeking advice and maybesee a colleague of mine.
Jennifer (33:36):
Sounds reasonable.
Let's see.
Let me look at my outlinebecause we like totally went way
left.
We went
Dr. Hopster (33:45):
broke.
Jennifer (33:46):
We did.
How about, let's talk about acouple drugs then.
So some drugs most poultry drugsI think are off label.
And so people would say, theyguess, seven, 10 days egg
withdrawal.
Or don't eat that bird later on.
What's your thoughts on offlabel drug use and egg
(34:09):
withdrawal?
That kind of stuff.
Dr. Hopster (34:11):
Yeah, that is a great question.
So if again differentiatingbetween a large producer which
should follow restrictions andshould follow antimicrobial
guidelines And guidelines foranti inflammatory drugs, right?
And and anti fung fungides.
Um, but if it comes to if youhave a small again, if you have
(34:34):
a small flock, it's your Theseare your birds and your hobby.
I would say that when it comesto antimicrobials for whatever
reason you had to treat them,you should, and you did circle
back with your veterinarian, andyour veterinarian tells you I'm
not 100 percent sure.
I think with two or three weeksmax, you're always at a really
safe time frame.
(34:55):
Most of them are reallyeliminated quite rapidly.
The majority of them will begone after, after a very few
days.
And if you want to play it trulysafe, if you wait two or maybe
three weeks.
You are at a very good place.
You also need to keep in mind athat just because the
antimicrobials are maybe notfully eliminated, they are
(35:17):
mostly eliminated.
And then you need to always keepthe ratio in perspective, right?
The amount of antimicrobialsthat you will find in a quail.
Versus the amount ofantimicrobials that you would
need for yourself, right?
Giving that there's a quitesubstantial body rate, body
ratio difference.
One example that we always usewhen it comes to body mass and
(35:38):
effect, right?
Is It's the question my my dogate ate a mouse that might have
been poisoned.
Do I have to be concerned?
Sure, you should always be alittle bit concerned, right?
But But in this case the toxinand toxicity comes from the
dose, which will besubstantially lower for
yourself.
So for that, I would say betweentwo and three weeks, you are in
(35:59):
a really great place.
If for some reason you you weregiving anti inflammatory drugs,
they have a very fastelimination rate.
That is usually very few days.
And I wouldn't be concernedabout eating eggs or meat from
an animal after three or fourdays when it comes to anti
inflammatory drugs.
Jennifer (36:21):
Cool.
Sounds good.
Carey, you got anything else?
Carey (36:26):
No, that was really awesome though.
I will say it was great to meetyou.
And I enjoyed hearing thatexplanation of how the
respiratory system works onbirds.
Dr. Hopster (36:36):
Yeah, it was really fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer (36:39):
That was fascinating.
Actually, a lot more informationthan I expected.
Carey (36:43):
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Dr. Hopster (36:45):
Yes.
You're very welcome.
I hope you have a great evening.
And if I have ever a problemabout my quails, you can be sure
I will send you an email.
Carey (36:55):
Thank you for joining us this week.
Before you go, be sure tosubscribe to our podcast so that
you can receive the new episodesright when they are released.
Feel free to email us atpoultrynerds at gmail.
com and share your thoughtsabout the show.
Be sure to also give us a likeand a follow on Facebook.
Until next time, poultry pals,keep clucking, keep learning,
(37:19):
and keep it eggciting.
This is Carey signing off fromPoultry Nerds.
Feathers up, everyone.
Hello, and welcome to the Poultry Nerds podcast, where
feathers meet fun.
Your podcast hosts are CareyBlackmon and Jennifer Bryant.
Together they work hard to bringyou the latest news and
information from the excitingworld of poultry.
Sit back and get ready for someeggciting interviews and some
(00:20):
foul facts on this episode ofPoultry Nerds.
Thanks for tuning in.
Jennifer (00:31):
The D-E-C-V-A-A, what is that?
Dr. Hopster (00:34):
That means that I have a European specialization
in veterinary anesthesia.
So I I went to vet school inGermany where I'm from and
that's the DMV.
It's.
Doctor of veterinary medicine orDr.
Medved.
And then then I decided to focuson the academic side of academia
(01:02):
with a stronger focus onteaching a small focus on
research and a quite small focuson clinics.
That is the PD.
So that's a three year programthat is comparable to a master's
in education.
It's quite specific for Germanspeaking countries.
And then and then my specializedtraining in veterinary
(01:24):
anesthesia, that is the DECVAAand which means a Diplomat of
the European College ofVeterinary Anesthesia and
Analgesia.
And then the PhD is a regularPhD.
Jennifer (01:39):
Oh, that's just normal.
Just run of the mill stuff, huh?
And then you made the mistake ofsending me an email with your
big long signature on the emailand I tackled you for a podcast
Dr. Hopster (01:50):
interview.
That is correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I reached out because we figuredwe couldn't figure out why they
were not laying.
Jennifer (02:00):
Are they doing well now?
Dr. Hopster (02:01):
They are doing incredibly well.
And I'm really impressed ontheir dependence on the game
bird's layers feed.
Because we did what yourecommended, right?
We changed their light regimen.
And so we changed coop positiona tiny little bit and switched
the food and it took about aweek and they started laying
really well an egg a day perquail.
And and then.
(02:22):
After, I would say, two months,maybe, there was a switch up
when we ordered the food and wegot not the game bird layer
feed, but normal game bird feed,which we didn't really realize
and And the only reason we didrealize this switch in food is
because they stopped layingafter about 10 days.
Jennifer (02:43):
Interesting.
You got them straightened backout now though?
Dr. Hopster (02:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We switched food and now theyare back in the game.
Jennifer (02:52):
Yeah.
I don't, I know.
I never recommend the game birdlayer for the Coturnix.
It seems like it always causesissues, but I do have it for the
button quail because they needit, that high metabolism, they
need it.
I didn't bring you here to talkabout your quail, necessarily.
So we we asked you to be here totalk about just the birds
(03:15):
respiratory system so you canget a better idea of how it
works and why it's differentfrom ours.
So can you overview that forpeople who are new to birds?
Dr. Hopster (03:27):
Yeah, I can have to say that the respiratory system
of birds is it's from anevolutionary perspective quite
impressive.
Their gas exchange design issubstantially more effective
than ours.
The only species that might bemaybe a little bit more
(03:48):
effective in that regards arefish.
Which is likely because theylive in a really low oxygen
environment.
But what birds can do due totheir very special on a,
anatomical design of therespiratory system is they can
make gas exchange and they canuptake oxygen during inspiration
(04:09):
and during expiration.
And that makes them twice aseffective as us.
Just Just as a reminder, right?
The way we breathe is we inhaleand then our lungs expand from
the negative pressure that ourchest develops during
inspiration, right?
When we do this deep breath in.
(04:29):
So the lung expands, which if wewant to simplify, it looks a
little bit like one big balloon.
So this balloon expands, oxygenenters and then We make gas
exchange, which is the transferof oxygen from the air into the
blood.
And then we exhale.
And during exhalation, we exhalethe gas now that has not much
(04:51):
oxygen left and a little bit ofCO2.
So our oxygen uptake is when youlook In the respiratory cycle
quite short out of one minute,it's about 10 to 12 seconds that
be effectively take oxygen intoour blood.
And that seems to work quitewell for us.
So what birds do in contrast isthey have and.
(05:15):
Some people might have heardthat, right?
They have a set of so called airsacs, a total of nine that is
pretty similar amongst allbirds.
So they have nine air sacs andand so four in the front and
then one at the side and thenfour in the back.
And what happens duringinspiration is the gas, um,
(05:38):
enters the lungs like it wouldwith us and it enters all air
sacs.
And during inspiration, it flowsby a tubing system.
So birds lungs are not a bigballoon.
They are more tubes.
And while it flows by thesetubes we, they do gas exchange,
right?
So there's blood in the onedirection, there's one tube and
(06:01):
air in the other direction.
That's the other tube.
And while they basically pass byeach other, oxygen transfers
from the air into the blood.
And as I mentioned, so all airsacs get filched during
inspiration, but the back airsacs, the caudal ones.
They basically get all the airthat bypasses the lungs.
(06:22):
Whereas the front air sacs, theyget all the fresh air that is
not that has not bypassed thelungs.
So at the end of Inspirationwhere the bird already did some
gas exchange via this tubularsystem, there is now one set of
air that is filling the caudalair sacs that is basically used.
(06:42):
And there's a fresh set of airthat is filling the cranial, the
frontal air sacs that is stillfresh.
And then during expiration, thegas from the caudal air sacs
gets exhaled, and the gas fromthe frontal air sacs again
bypasses the lung while it'sgetting exhaled.
So the bird is abled, with thisvery special and quite
(07:04):
fascinating anatomical design,to to fill the lung with fresh
air and make gas exchange anduptake oxygen during inspiration
as we would, but also duringexpiration.
So they basically constantlyhave fresh air bypassing the
blood and they can constantlyuptake oxygen.
Jennifer (07:23):
Super interesting.
I followed all of that.
Carey (07:27):
I caught myself taking notes!
Jennifer (07:30):
So the reason for the air sacs is what?
Dr. Hopster (07:34):
So the main reason for the air sacs is a, it cools
the birds down, right?
There's always air, which is atbest room temperature.
So it cools the birds down.
And the other reason for the airsacs is it's basically a
constant reservoir of freshoxygen.
And these are the two mainmechanisms of the air sacs.
Jennifer (07:56):
Does it have anything to do with their ability to fly
like their buoyancy or anythinglike that?
Or no,
Dr. Hopster (08:04):
no.
Okay.
A bird could fly without thiscomplex air sacs system.
That, that is purely mechanicsand their wings.
So the air sacs really do thesetwo main things.
Which is a huge advantage whenit comes to oxygen uptake, and
to meet their high metabolicneeds, because it's a quite
(08:25):
energy consuming event, flying.
It comes with disadvantages aswell, right?
Because people could ask if theyare such.
such a strong evolutionaryadvantage of having this kind of
lung or respiratory system, whywouldn't all animals have that?
And things that the birds can'tdo with their lungs, for
(08:46):
example, is filter as preciselyas we can do that with our very
complex airway system.
That's why we are much morerobust when it comes to upper
airway contamination, whichmight be something we want to
touch later, right?
Aspergillosis, for example.
We have a much, much betterdeveloped airway immune system.
(09:09):
The way our airways are builtthey become very small.
And the airflow really drops.
from fast to really slow, whichhelps filtering all these
particles out.
So that is one big advantage ofour airway system in contrast to
birds.
That's why they sometimes don'tdo well if they fly and have
really extensive gas exchange.
And another reason what we dowith our lungs that birds, for
(09:32):
example, can't do, and that isrelevant for me as an
anesthesiologist is we use ourlungs to metabolize things.
drugs to get rid of them, forexample, propofol, a quite
popular or well knownanesthetic.
The older ones of us mightremember Michael Jackson and the
propofol incident.
So our lungs help usmetabolizing propofols.
(09:56):
Birds can't do that.
So they are much more sensitiveto certain drugs that require
pulmonary metabolism.
And then the third big thingthat our lungs do is they store
a lot of blood.
It's basically a blood reservoirin case that we have to
mobilize.
And that is something that thebirds also can't do.
(10:16):
So it's a trade, right?
We decided we have lessermetabolic needs.
But we have a more robust immunesystem.
We have a little bit of bloodstorage and a little bit of
metabolism.
Whereas the bird to the side Ineed oxygen all the time.
And there is only 21 percent inthe ambient air.
So I need to do whatever ittakes to make my gas exchange as
(10:36):
effective as possible.
Jennifer (10:39):
Okay.
So two questions come to mind.
One, I see people with birdsthat have enlarged air sacs and
they use a needle to deflatethem.
Is that.
What is that?
And should you use a needle todeflate them?
Dr. Hopster (10:58):
Yeah, so sometimes air can be entrapped.
For example, if we know thisfrom ourselves, if we have
chronic respiratory diseasesthen over time our airways
become lesser patent, lesserelastic, and then it can, And
then birds can develop so calledair trapping, which can inflate
their air sacs a little bit.
(11:20):
If that is the case justdeflating the air sacs is make
it make Yeah, might give somerelief in the moment, but it's
not really a treatment of theissue.
And usually that's redevelopsquite quickly.
Another thing that people needto be quite careful with is if
you use a normal needle and nota special medical needle that is
(11:43):
hollow Therefore allows the gasto basically leave the bird.
If you just poke a hole in theair sac, you might you might
risk emphysema development,meaning that the air might leave
the air sac, but it's stilltrapped in the bird.
So it is usually best to to usespecial equipment.
(12:03):
If they are doing, if they arevery calm and very quiet.
You can try to do it yourself,but usually these birds do best
if they are at least mildlysedated or well restrained
because entering and exitingwith a needle, we always think
it might cause a small hole, butif you actually enter a very
(12:27):
inflated balloon with a needle,you will see that they erupt.
And worst case scenario, you canactually burst the air sac.
And that might be a deathsentence for this bird.
Because then during inhalation,it would just entrap more and
more air until they couldn'tbreathe anymore.
Jennifer (12:45):
Okay, if you did nothing, could the bird
eventually fix this inflated airsac itself?
Dr. Hopster (12:52):
Yeah, if it's not severe and you find the
reasoning for this inflated airsac, for example a respiratory
issue and you treat thatrespiratory issue Okay.
Then there's a very good chancethat the secondary symptom or
problem, right?
The inflated air sag thismeteorism would then resolve
once the underlying issue isresolved.
Jennifer (13:15):
We're not sticking to my outline.
You've got me, like, allsidetracked and I'm having to
think.
Dr. Hopster (13:20):
Yeah, I realize that.
Carey (13:22):
This the show is called Poultry Nerds and this is
actually really bringing out thegeek inside of me and I'm really
getting into learning about thisand I didn't, I did, I would
have never imagined that a birdbreathing has nine air sacs and
it's such a, they're taking inand they're inhaling and
(13:43):
exhaling at the same time.
I would have never thought that.
Dr. Hopster (13:47):
It is.
The concept is brilliant.
Yeah, sorry.
Go ahead.
Jennifer (13:52):
I was reading a paper last night as I was trying to
wrap my brain around talking toyou, and it said they actually
inhaled twice.
For the exhale.
So the second
Dr. Hopster (14:03):
inhalation is a little bit longer.
That's why they have this thisuneven number of air sacs,
right?
So in the, they can make theinspiratory period very long and
the expiratory period a littlebit shorter, which is quite the
opposite of how we breathe.
If you I always tell my studentsNot now because now everyone is
at alert, but during the nextlecture, when some of them have
forgotten, they should casuallyobserve in a non creeping way,
(14:25):
their neighbor.
and see how they breathe.
And they will realize thatexhalation takes a really long
time.
And then there's the pause,right?
Then we do a brief inhalation ora deep breath, and then a long
exhalation.
And the bird is much morelinear, constantly breathing
with a nice ratio of one and ahalf to one, right?
With constant airflow, constantoxygen uptake, which is super
(14:49):
effective.
That's why they do so well,still quite well, right?
At high altitudes.
When the barometric pressuredrops, we might still have 21
percent oxygen, but we have somuch lesser oxygen particles,
right?
If you go up to Mount Everestthat's why we only go up there
with an oxygen bottle, right?
When the barometric pressuredrops.
(15:09):
By 40 percent or so, wetheoretically have 40 percent
less oxygen available, which isa problem for us, but not for a
bird.
They do incredibly well in lowoxygen environments because they
are so incredibly effective.
Jennifer (15:24):
Super interesting.
Carrie is just like grinningfrom ear to ear on the nerdy
stuff here.
Carey (15:29):
I can't help it.
It's very interesting because,as he's sitting here talking
about how They breathe fasterand stuff.
I think I'm real bad about goingout and sitting in the yard
where my birds are.
I have chickens and quail and,I'll watch the quail and they
breathe extremely fast and mychickens do too.
(15:52):
And, I just never really thoughtabout why but, now I realize
that it's a lot more efficient.
And it works.
Yeah, it does.
Jennifer (16:05):
I have to attribute the question then before we move
on to my next set of questions.
So would a hummingbird breathefaster than say a big old
turkey?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
So one last question on thispart of it.
So we have a diaphragm, whichsqueezes our lungs, right?
So we don't have a diaphragm.
So what's squeezing that air inand out?
(16:27):
The chest itself,
Dr. Hopster (16:29):
the chest movement.
And it's usually really wellsynchronized.
It's usually really wellsynchronized with their wing
movement.
Particularly during flying.
That is something that manyanimals do a horse, for example,
when it gallops.
It synchronizes, its breathingto its strides, and the bird
does the same because it's veryenergy efficient, right?
(16:50):
They use the movement anywayseither to fly or to move
forward.
Why not using the movement alsoto move gas in and out?
So they do this with with theirchest movement quite
extensively.
And because they don't have thediaphragm as their main
respiratory muscle.
Which is an advantage from anfrom a body cavity perspective,
(17:11):
right?
Because therefore they have muchmore space for the air sacs, but
it is a disadvantage.
For example, when when they havesome kind of lacerations or
wounds, if we have a, if we havea wound and it involves our
abdomen, we can still breathe.
We will have other problems, butbreathing is not altered because
the chest is still a veryenclosed space.
(17:32):
If that happens to a bird, theywill start struggling with
breathing.
We will see this.
Even small wounds a bite wound,for example they will start
struggling with breathing.
much more than we would.
Jennifer (17:46):
Interesting.
Okay.
So now let's talk about likerespiratory infections, colds,
that kind of stuff.
So mammals have tonsils and allother, I don't know, all the
anatomy stuff that's all up inthere to gather dust and keep
it, keep our lungs clean.
(18:08):
So how do birds keep that stuffout of their lungs and air sacs
I guess?
Dr. Hopster (18:15):
Yeah.
And and that, that is for birdsa little bit more tricky, right?
They have a lesser fine andlesser advanced developed immune
system, but also pure cleaningsystem.
So the first thing that birds dois when the air enters rise
through the nostrils and thenose into the trachea, because
that is something that a birdhas like we have that too.
(18:37):
There's a very small they arevery small cilia, right?
Little They look a little bitlike, like very small feathers
that that are all over themucosa of the trachea and they
are in constant movement.
And usually what happens whenyou inhale quite fast and fast
inhalation, when it enters anarrow space or a narrow tube
(18:59):
like the bird's airway becomesvery turbulent.
So you go from a low to a highpressure.
That's a little bit like agarden hose phenomenon, right?
When you have the same amount ofwater and you just narrow the
garden hose, you just increasethe pressure.
the pressure.
Same happens here.
So you increase the pressure.
This increase in pressure thenhits the trachea wall and starts
(19:22):
to become really turbulent.
And this turbulence is quitehelpful.
Because it leads to the airhaving a lot of contact time
with the with the airway wallwhile it's traveling downwards,
in a spiral.
And then all the rough dirt anddust, some microbes and some
very small particles.
(19:44):
Are then caught by these ciliathat are along the trachea wall
and they, they move constantlyin waves and the wave and the
wave like movement of the ciliaalways goes towards the nose.
So these small and dust andparticles are then caught.
And the cilia, while moving,move them back upwards, and then
(20:06):
at the end for us that will besnot is something that the bird
can then cough out and that isreally that is really important
to keep the air that then entersthe lung as clean as possible.
Because the air sacs themselveshave only very limited capacity
to for defense against eithersmaller particles or even
(20:28):
bacteria microbes or virusesthat enter air sacs.
So the most effective way forthe airway to basically clean
itself up is it's a wash outeffect of fresh air.
Therefore it is important,right?
For birds to either have a lotof access to fresh air so that
(20:49):
they can constantly breathe.
And that is why birds That canmove more, right?
That are not contained in smallin small spaces, but can either
move or if they are supposed tofly, that they can fly or run a
little bit to really actuallyactivate their breathing system.
That's why they usually do Dosubstantially better.
And then the last thing that isis really important for the
(21:13):
immune and defense mechanism ofthe airway of of alien lungs.
Is they have a very speciallymphatic system that that if
there should be any kind oftransfer of particles or
microorganisms that thislymphatic system immediately
filters that and transports itaway before it can cause any
(21:34):
kind of systematic or systemicdamage.
Jennifer (21:38):
Does it put it out as an exhale or filter it through
the liver and?
Yeah, if it's,
Dr. Hopster (21:45):
once it enters, it would be filtered through
through liver and kidneys andthen excreted either via the
bile and then with the feces,right?
Or as giving that birds don'thave a lot of urine.
Jennifer (21:59):
Okay.
I'm wrapping my brain aroundeverything.
Come on, Carey.
You got a question.
Carey (22:07):
1 of my questions involves avian influenza.
Yes, I know that is a huge thingthat hits a lot of different
areas.
And I have always wondered if abird's nutrition did not help
build their immune system and ifit was possible for them to not
(22:29):
get sick because they had areally good immune system.
Or how, what's the sciencebehind all that?
How does that work?
And is there anything that canbe done?
To help prevent or is it justone of those things
Dr. Hopster (22:45):
That is a fantastic question.
And will require a little bitbroader answer.
Because avian influenza right isa viral infection that mainly
affects the airways.
And this question is a brilliantquestion when it comes to viral
infections that affect theairways, right?
And now that we just barely lefta pandemic with with a strong
(23:09):
association to airwayinfections, I think this topic
is is really broad, incrediblyimportant.
And to answer it, particularlyfor avian influenza and and It's
target species, birds.
Yes, we can do certain dietarymeasures to improve immune
function.
In general, and in particular,when it comes to the pulmonary
(23:31):
immune function, we can'tprevent fully infection just by
nutrition.
But as it is with us thehealthier the individual the
better we treat ourselves andour bodies, the more likely it
is That that we will either beable to, to immune fight the
(23:51):
infection if the viral load islow enough and allows that if
the viral load is too high andexposure is just too aggressive
good nutrition will still helpyou to if you're an overall good
health, you might still have amuch better chance to to to not
become severely sick and maybehave a have lesser severe
(24:12):
symptoms, the faster recoverytime and a few specifics when it
comes to immune function, right?
So some vitamins and someminerals essential for a
functioning immune system.
Vitamin a, for example it'squite crucial when it comes to
overall maintaining healthymucosal surfaces.
(24:33):
And that is in these kinds ofproblems, that's mainly the
airway mucosa, right?
There's active cilia movementsthat these are all healthy and
doing well.
That would also be thegastrointestinal tract when we
will, when we would look atother diseases.
So making sure that the, thatthese animals are well supported
then what we likely know vitaminE, it's a very important
(24:55):
antioxidant that that supportsthe immune function and that
helps keeping immune cellshealthy.
Healthy and active.
It prevents a little bit immunecell degeneration.
Same would be true for selenium.
Then zinc is It's something thatthat can support cell healing
(25:17):
and cell function and thereforetheoretically also wound
healing, right?
If you just look at the immunesystem and vitamin and mineral
support But also, as wediscussed earlier an appropriate
protein and energy level isreally important, right?
If you want to maintain ahealthy flock or healthy
individual birds that they arethat they are in good shape,
(25:40):
that they have enough energy tofight off infections, that they
have enough energy to regenerateproper.
If it comes to any kind of otherdiseases and then because most
of our organ systems are linked,um, it is also not unimportant
to to think about other organsystems, like for example the
gastrointestinal system, and guthealth and and then and then
(26:04):
overall.
despite good nutrition is thengood housing.
If you are concerned if yourbirds show any kind of symptoms,
that you have a stress flip or alow stress environment, that
they have time to properlygenerate.
We can oftentimes translate alot from us and our health to
healthcare of animals, when weare not feeling well.
(26:25):
It helps us to stay in bed,right?
Proper regenerate, have a lowstress low energy environment
now and then get some fresh air,right?
My, my grandma always said toair out your lungs, which is
certainly true, right?
The older I get, the more Irealized I should have listened
even more to what these smartpeople had to say.
(26:48):
And that is something that youcan.
Absolutely.
Apply to to your birds as well.
Jennifer (26:54):
Wow.
Okay.
So I would like to ask you acouple of questions from a new
chicken keepers point of view.
If chickens are sneezing orcoughing a little bit, or just
sound a little bit raspy.
I know what I do, but what wouldyou suggest that they do first
(27:17):
before they start to panic?
Dr. Hopster (27:18):
The last time I had a problem with my chickens and
it's likely that I would do thesame again, I would reach out to
an experienced to an experiencedchicken keeper.
I believe that I can say that,giving that I am in that
profession.
I think that that many of mycolleagues as great as they are,
right.
And as fantastic as they workand as well trained as they are.
(27:41):
oftentimes just lack this lastpiece of experience, right?
The true self experience that isoftentimes needed to a identify
a problem proper.
And then also to realize when isit appropriate to react and
respond?
And when is it appropriate,which kind of problems can I sit
out and wait out?
And back to my grandma, thereare oftentimes a few household
(28:05):
tips that are.
That carry much lesser sideeffects as effective and maybe
cause substantially lesserstress for your birds, because
The scenario that I'm alwaysafraid of is right.
So I have a, I have a.
I have a quail and this quailhas maybe a little bit of nasal
(28:26):
discharge or maybe breathe thisa little bit different than the
other quails.
And if I now overreact and catchthis bird and take it out of its
used environment and away fromits friends and drag it to a
place and then there's, and thenthere's Then there is
diagnostics may be done, right?
And maybe blood is taken andmaybe a radiograph, right?
As we usually tend to do that toever get a better idea of the
(28:48):
lungs.
And then and then I get theadvice to to apply fresh air a
little bit of supplements andvitamins.
Then I feel that, You might havenot only lost a substantial
amount of money, but the, butthis poor bird also substantial
amount of energy that it mighthave invested better into into
healing, right?
The risk is always if it's aninfectious disease you want to
(29:11):
catch that early and maybeseparate a little bit if you
have this opportunity, but myadvice will always be reach out
to to maybe your neighbor, yourfriend or if you are really
fresh chicken chicken father tothe person that you bought these
these chickens from and ask fortheir advice, right?
Describe it.
Have you seen that before aswell?
(29:32):
What did you do?
Did it work?
Because experience is soinvaluable.
And and if you get your birdsfrom the right people they will
help you.
They will follow up and theyknow what to do a hundred
percent.
Jennifer (29:46):
So just for your information if one of my birds
sneezes, I don't really even, Imay not even notice until maybe
a week later, if they're stilldoing it.
But all of my birds are outside.
They're on grass.
The chickens are fresh air undersunshades, open to the elements.
(30:07):
And I just, if one of them justdoesn't seem like he's feeling
all that well, I'll just throwthem out in the yard.
Here you go, sink or swim.
And almost 99 percent of thetime they swim because they just
needed that, the fresh air, thegrass, the sunshine, the, the
natural elements, yeah.
(30:28):
A little bit of
Dr. Hopster (30:28):
sun, a little bit of vitamin D, a little bit of
warmth.
Jennifer (30:32):
Yeah, I think people get so worried about predators
that they tend to lock them uptoo tight, and that's a
ventilation issue.
My coops are mostly hardwarecloth.
They actually have very littlesolid structure walls.
They're almost all hardwarecloth.
(30:54):
And people just freak out whenthey see them sometimes.
And, but I don't get sickchickens, you
Carey (31:00):
know,
Jennifer (31:00):
constantly, or they're in the cold air, they're in the
breeze.
They get wet when it rains, justlike they did, a thousand years
ago,
Carey (31:10):
that's how they get that vigor.
Dr. Hopster (31:13):
Yeah.
I think you are a hundredpercent right.
My sister has quails too.
She still lives in Germany.
They have about 40 quails.
And I, and I asked her what shedoes when it was so hot here in
Pennsylvania in July, I askedher what if, what she does if
she would move them to a shipinto the shade, into the cold or
a fan and said, no just leavethese poor birds alone.
(31:36):
Being birds.
She says they have a nice way toto get used to these temperature
changes, she says, and they willjust do fine much better than if
you now start moving them aroundand doing all kinds of things
and and try artificially toimprove their welfare.
Jennifer (31:52):
Yeah.
Just let them be a bird.
Dr. Hopster (31:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer (31:56):
All right.
So at what point then would yousuggest if somebody were to go
to the medical route at whatpoint would it be prudent to go
see a veterinarian?
Dr. Hopster (32:10):
I would, um, if it's, if you have a small flock
of birds because it's a hobbybird system, otherwise I would
recommend that you should see aveterinarian quite regularly,
right?
If this is if this is yourincome and you have thousands of
of layers, for example, like mybrother in law has, They have
they have a very nice layingfarm with, I think 28, 000
(32:32):
chickens and he has the vetthere every week.
And
Carey (32:35):
they
Dr. Hopster (32:39):
have a quite nice setup.
Because they they do this inNorth Germany and they, um,
they, they have these birds haveinside opportunities, but they
are all free range.
And he, they have the vet therequite regularly, for water
analysis.
And they do a brief walkthroughmaking sure that they are not
right next to each other.
(33:00):
Excessive amount of animalslooking dull or something like
that.
But but if I look at my my veryproud four quails my four golden
girls I would say if I would beable to identify, which is
tough, right?
Because they all feed from thesame area.
But if I would identify one thatis a true outlier dull not
(33:21):
wanting to move when I engagethem maybe in lateral
recumbency, excessive, veryweird breathing pattern for a
prolonged period of time, coupleof days, I think that I would
start seeking advice and maybesee a colleague of mine.
Jennifer (33:36):
Sounds reasonable.
Let's see.
Let me look at my outlinebecause we like totally went way
left.
We went
Dr. Hopster (33:45):
broke.
Jennifer (33:46):
We did.
How about, let's talk about acouple drugs then.
So some drugs most poultry drugsI think are off label.
And so people would say, theyguess, seven, 10 days egg
withdrawal.
Or don't eat that bird later on.
What's your thoughts on offlabel drug use and egg
(34:09):
withdrawal?
That kind of stuff.
Dr. Hopster (34:11):
Yeah, that is a great question.
So if again differentiatingbetween a large producer which
should follow restrictions andshould follow antimicrobial
guidelines And guidelines foranti inflammatory drugs, right?
And and anti fung fungides.
Um, but if it comes to if youhave a small again, if you have
(34:34):
a small flock, it's your Theseare your birds and your hobby.
I would say that when it comesto antimicrobials for whatever
reason you had to treat them,you should, and you did circle
back with your veterinarian, andyour veterinarian tells you I'm
not 100 percent sure.
I think with two or three weeksmax, you're always at a really
safe time frame.
(34:55):
Most of them are reallyeliminated quite rapidly.
The majority of them will begone after, after a very few
days.
And if you want to play it trulysafe, if you wait two or maybe
three weeks.
You are at a very good place.
You also need to keep in mind athat just because the
antimicrobials are maybe notfully eliminated, they are
(35:17):
mostly eliminated.
And then you need to always keepthe ratio in perspective, right?
The amount of antimicrobialsthat you will find in a quail.
Versus the amount ofantimicrobials that you would
need for yourself, right?
Giving that there's a quitesubstantial body rate, body
ratio difference.
One example that we always usewhen it comes to body mass and
(35:38):
effect, right?
Is It's the question my my dogate ate a mouse that might have
been poisoned.
Do I have to be concerned?
Sure, you should always be alittle bit concerned, right?
But But in this case the toxinand toxicity comes from the
dose, which will besubstantially lower for
yourself.
So for that, I would say betweentwo and three weeks, you are in
(35:59):
a really great place.
If for some reason you you weregiving anti inflammatory drugs,
they have a very fastelimination rate.
That is usually very few days.
And I wouldn't be concernedabout eating eggs or meat from
an animal after three or fourdays when it comes to anti
inflammatory drugs.
Jennifer (36:21):
Cool.
Sounds good.
Carey, you got anything else?
Carey (36:26):
No, that was really awesome though.
I will say it was great to meetyou.
And I enjoyed hearing thatexplanation of how the
respiratory system works onbirds.
Dr. Hopster (36:36):
Yeah, it was really fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer (36:39):
That was fascinating.
Actually, a lot more informationthan I expected.
Carey (36:43):
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Dr. Hopster (36:45):
Yes.
You're very welcome.
I hope you have a great evening.
And if I have ever a problemabout my quails, you can be sure
I will send you an email.
Carey (36:55):
Thank you for joining us this week.
Before you go, be sure tosubscribe to our podcast so that
you can receive the new episodesright when they are released.
Feel free to email us atpoultrynerds at gmail.
com and share your thoughtsabout the show.
Be sure to also give us a likeand a follow on Facebook.
Until next time, poultry pals,keep clucking, keep learning,
(37:19):
and keep it eggciting.
This is Carey signing off fromPoultry Nerds.
Feathers up, everyone.
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