May 1, 2025 • 49 mins
💩 Welcome to the Poultry Nerds Podcast — where no question is too weird and no topic too gross to cover… especially when it comes to poop!
In this explosively informative episode, we're joined by the legendary Jeff Mattocks, poultry nutrition expert and feed formulator, to answer the #1 mystery in backyard poultry: "What the crap is wrong with my bird?"
Jeff breaks down:
- What normal vs. abnormal chicken manure looks like
- Signs of mycotoxins in poultry feed and droppings
- The truth about wet feed, fermentation, and feed spoilage
- How to recognize Clostridium, coccidiosis, and nutritional imbalances
- Why apple cider vinegar is not the enemy
- The power of Redmond Conditioner and natural mycotoxin binders
- Secrets to interpreting color, texture, and smell of poultry poop
- Why poop tells the story of your flock’s health
We also laugh through talk of pigs, turkeys, ducks, and why raising poultry is just like raising kids — only more rewarding.
📌 Whether you're a backyard poultry keeper, show bird enthusiast, or just curious about what your chicken’s poop is telling you — this is one you do not want to miss.
✅ Subscribe to Poultry Nerds Podcast for more poultry education, expert interviews, and hilarious deep dives into the science of birds, feed, health, and more.
chicken poop analysis, poultry mycotoxins, Jeff Maddox poultry, abnormal chicken droppings, what chicken poop means, coccidiosis in chickens, mycotoxins in feed, Redmond conditioner poultry, duck poop explained, Clostridium chickens, chicken health tips, chicken feed safety, poultry manure signs, backyard chicken care, interpreting poultry poop, apple cider vinegar chickens
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carey (00:01):
All right everybody, we are back with an exciting
episode and this is gonna be onethat we're going to try our best
to describe to you what itshould look like.
'cause we know that y'all arelistening, not watching.
But we have the infamous JeffMaddox on today and he is going
(00:22):
to talk about in this episodethe exciting.
World of manure.
Y'all asked what's wrong with mybird?
And several people have laughedat me when I said, can you send
me a picture of their crap andtheir feed tag?
(00:43):
We're gonna have Jeff on hereand we're gonna let him explain
what different crap looks like,what we're looking for and how
to do it.
Jeff, how are you today?
I'm good.
You?
I'm good.
You ready to tell us aboutmycotoxins and all those good
(01:04):
indicators that let people knowwhat the crap is wrong with
their chicken when they look attheir crap?
Jeff (01:11):
Yeah, you can tell a lot by looking at the droppings.
So let's do, what is themycotoxin.
A mycotoxin, and that's in theearly slides that we have, but
nobody's gonna see that, but amycotoxin.
So when you have a mold or afungus or okay, so penicillin,
(01:35):
because it is the byproduct of abread mold.
It is.
Could be considered a mycotoxin.
So it is what is left behindafter a bacteria or a fungus has
lived and expired and died.
So it's a secondary metabolite,right?
(01:55):
So it's the chemical compoundIt.
This is a show about poop.
So it is basically the poop offungus and bacteria.
There's the easy way to say it.
So it's what's left behind aftermolds and tox or after molds and
fungis have lived and died.
(02:17):
That's the easiest way to sayit.
That's pretty simple's a lotcomplex and chemical.
Yeah.
That's the easiest way to thinkabout it, and now if a PhD that
has a degree in microbiologywatches this show or listens to
this show, they're gonna belike, that's not what it is.
Okay.
Yeah.
(02:37):
At the end of the day, that'sreally what it is.
Okay.
Jennifer (02:40):
All right, so why are they important?
Jeff (02:43):
Because if you actually go to the bio website you'll find
that 80% of all the grainsamples that they pull in and do
random testing all over theworld, not just here in the
grand old United States.
All test positive formycotoxins.
(03:04):
Okay?
These organisms actually live inthe soil and they're waiting for
a prime opportunity.
Whether it's weather, stress,too much rain, not enough rain,
whatever.
If the plant's under stress,then these molds are fungus.
We will start growing on theplant, and so they're gonna be
(03:26):
there, but.
Because of our agriculturalsystem being bigger, faster or
whatever.
And they say better, but it'sreally not.
And the the theory of no-tillfarming where you just go out
there and spray it and kill it,and you plant right into
whatever's left, you actuallyleave behind enough crop residue
(03:49):
from the previous crop to keepthose spores.
Alive for the different moldsand fungus.
So we're seeing a higher andhigher contamination rate.
And so yeah.
So when the plant is reallysmall, when it's a seedling just
coming out of the ground, if weget a heavy rain, it'll splash
(04:13):
dirt.
Or manure or whatever they usedup onto the tissue of the plant,
right?
So it's high enough up on theplant that dirt residue will,
that dirt residue will remain asthe plant matures.
And in the final stages ofripening off where you have,
(04:34):
highly condensed starches andenergies, right?
You get another rain or you getthat stress event and.
It gets a chance to grow.
Like fusarium, on a wheat cropor a barley crop or something
like that.
It's actually looks pretty pink.
Yeah, you can go after and youcan see it, and then eventually
(04:55):
it'll go to this black blackishgray kind of musty looking.
But in the early stages, it'sgot a kind of a pretty purplish
pink Q to it.
Some are blue, but most of themare pink.
Carey (05:18):
So what room goes silent?
Yeah.
Like I'm just thinking, you knowthe difference.
Jeff (05:26):
Let me wind up the cat
Carey (05:27):
again.
So now let me ask this.
That all happens when the grainsare still in the ground or in
the fields or wherever they'reat.
If you, I saw this recently onone of the groups.
Somebody got a bag of feed wetand they're like, what's the
(05:48):
best way to dry it out?
If my okay if I have a bag offeed that gets soaked in the
rain.
How much time do I have beforethat crap becomes toxic and
starts growing mold?
Jeff (06:06):
You have about 24 hours.
It depends on the feed, if it'swhole grain or if it's, if we're
talking like mash and pellets.
You've got.
24 hours.
Okay.
If I had greens, like someonewas trying to ferment it, I
could probably sneak that alongfor, maybe two days.
And here's the thing, as soon asthat bag, if it gets really wet
(06:28):
inside birds like wet feet,there's no doubt about that.
They like wet clumpy feet.
So if you feed it soon enough,right?
You catch it, you've seen it,right?
You can open that bag up and youcan get it out there in front of
as many birds as possible,right?
And get through it that first 12to 24 hours, you really don't
(06:48):
have a problem.
Okay?
Everything after that 24 hourmark is a gamble on what's
grown.
So a lot of those seeds are, alot of those seeds still have
active spores on them.
And that's why you've heard meand I discourage people from
doing the fermented feed thing.
(07:10):
It really bothers me because Idon't know.
How many active mold or fungusspores are still alive and
viable in that bag of feed theybought, whether it's pellet,
crumble, whole grain, whatever.
Okay.
Carey (07:27):
And that's just because you don't know the source.
You don't know if it's, whatkind of pesticides they sprayed
on it.
You don't know any of that.
I dunno, either.
I don't know.
None of that, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so let
Jennifer (07:39):
me back up for just a minute.
So you were talking about howthe plant grows and then the
water's splashing up and that'swhere the stuff the mycotoxins
come from.
So now we're translating thatinto the bag of feed.
And when you get it wet, that'swhat takes off the day.
Makes it bad,
Jeff (07:56):
right?
Okay.
So when the plant is still aseedling, right?
When it's down in what they callthe flag stage, where it's one
or two leafs out of the ground,right?
And depending on your weather,like I said, if you get a heavy
thunderstorm, a really heavydownpour, it's going to splash
soil particles up off the groundonto the plant tissue.
(08:21):
Okay.
And they're gonna stay there aslong as the plant grows,
especially, okay.
We've all seen a young plant,right?
It comes up and it makes a v.
Carey (08:30):
Okay.
Jeff (08:31):
So if that dirt or that soil I hate to call it dirt, it
soil's a living creature.
But if you splash some of thatsoil up into that crown or that
opening between those twoleaves, okay, it's gonna stay
there forever, right?
And it's gonna grow with theplant and every, and it's gonna
feed on the moisture of theplant.
(08:51):
And every time you get rain, youknow it, it lives there and it's
gonna be viable.
So throughout the lifecycle ofthe plant, no matter what crop
we're talking about, that, it'sgonna, it's gonna transfer right
through, it's gonna keep ongoing, and then when that plant
decides to ripen off, right?
(09:13):
When it makes its grain and itsets fruit, whatever, however
you wanna refer to it, now youhave that high carbohydrate,
high starch environment.
That's really, it's a perfect.
Breeding ground or growingground for that fungus or that
bacteria, to do something tocontinue its lifecycle, right?
It's trying to live too, justlike the plane.
(09:37):
So it's gonna, and in the south,where you all are.
We tend to see more likeaflatoxin and some mycotoxins,
in the north.
We don't have the heat stressusually, so we don't usually, we
don't have an extended period ofheat stress, so we don't fight
(09:57):
as much aflatoxin, which is adifferent category, but it's
still part of the mycotoxinfamily.
So there's a bunch of differentmycotoxins out there.
Most labs will test for 11 or 12different types or strains.
It's not a cheap test.
Last time I looked it was about88 bucks to do a mycotoxin test,
(10:18):
but you got bad feed, you canlose$88 in a hurry, if you've
got a breeding flock or you'vegot high dollar birds, show
birds, whatever.
Carey (10:28):
See that's why when I saw them talking about.
I saw one person say, lay a tarpout and put a fan on it and
this, that, and the other.
And I was like, you're probablyat a$20 bag of feed and you're
risking that, like, how manybirds do you have?
(10:49):
Just go feed the crap out of'emand let'em.
Eat off of it, yeah.
Do something, but get rid of itover the next couple of days.
Again, that's one of the reasonswhy I like to have pigs on the
farm because,
Jeff (11:06):
okay.
Now wait.
Hold on.
You get some wet chicken feed?
No, hold on.
Because pigs have a lowertolerance for mycotoxins than
poultry do.
You start feeding moldy crap toto a pig, and you're gonna lose
pigs in a hurry.
Okay?
So again, the 12 to 24 hourmark.
(11:28):
But they have a lower thresholdor tolerance for most of those
mycotoxins that than a chickendoes.
And the big one that we weretalking about before, you know
the don ba toxin.
Take a really close look atthat.
At that name.
Vomit toxin.
You know how it got its name?
Because they discovered thatpigs a guy named Don Vomit.
(11:53):
No, that's the technical word,but it got the vomit toxin
because it will actually causepigs to vomit.
Jennifer (12:02):
I said, I thought you were saying, okay.
Jeff (12:05):
Yeah.
That's for real.
If.
Jennifer (12:09):
If the mycotoxins getting on the grain at the
plant stage, and let's justassume we don't water our bags
of feed on our daily basis.
Is it important?
Is the amount of mycotoxins inthe feed important or is there
anything we can do about it?
Jeff (12:25):
Look, all your big feed manufacturers doesn't matter
whether it's Tucker, whetherit's Comba, whether it's
Cargill, whether it's Purina, Idon't care.
You name one and every one ofthose is actually, if you read,
I know how, reading down throughthe ingredient list, I know how
to pick it apart and know.
You know what things are inthere for, but they're all
(12:46):
adding a mycotoxin binder or aprotective agent against those
mycotoxins.
Now, when you get the feed wet,all bets are off, right?
Because now you have just, puttoo much salt in the soup and
you can't back up at that point.
(13:08):
Yeah.
The best thing you can do, youget a wet bag of feed.
You feed as much of it as youcan in a 24 hour period, and the
rest of it goes to the compostpile.
Okay.
And that is your safest option,right?
Mix it in the compost pile.
Jennifer (13:24):
So outta curiosity, what's the binder called?
Jeff (13:29):
Yeah, give us some examples.
There's a bunch of them outthere.
There's like micro curb, there'sMicroban.
Most of'em will have a sodiumaluminum silicate in'em.
Some of'em break'em down and usetheir really long technical
name, which isn't coming to mindright now.
A bunch of'em, you'll see likeproponic acid in there as a
preservative.
(13:50):
Some use aquin as apreservative.
And I don't want nothing to dowith aquin.
They've got so many studies thatlink that to cancer and skin
disorders and dogs and cats.
It's and what?
When I read an ingredient listfor somebody.
As soon if I see Aquin orB-H-A-B-H-T in it, it's nope
(14:11):
that right there stops theconversation.
That we're done.
Jennifer (14:16):
Okay.
Writing that down.
B-H-A-B-H-T.
And what was the other ones?
Jeff (14:21):
Equin, E-T-H-O-X.
I screwed that up already.
E-T-H-O-X-Y-Q-U-I-N-E, I think
Jennifer (14:38):
any of those are on there.
Don't buy the feed.
Jeff (14:40):
I don't, I mean that I steer people away from'em,
right?
That's a quick red flag for me.
Why do I wanna put a carcinogeninto my animal that I intend to
eat the meat or eggs out of?
Okay.
And people dig around out thereand find, there is scientific
studies, not just Googleresponses from, Susie Housewife
(15:03):
that will tell you that, Aquinhas a lot it's a known
carcinogenic, right?
But it is the cheapest.
Probably the most effectiveantioxidant or slash
preservative that is availableto the feed industry.
(15:24):
Nobody in the horse or the petfood industry will touch it,
right?
It's not even, it's not even anoption, right?
Because those groups of people,equine people and pet owners.
They already, they're fullyaware of the negative side
effects of Ox Aquit.
Now, I shouldn't say nobody usesit.
There are still some pet foodcompanies that do.
(15:48):
But most of the time when I see,dogs with, the tumorous bumps on
'em and things like that, if Igo back, look at the feed that
they've been eating and so on,I'll usually find aquin or BHT
or BHA or one of those,eventually the liver just can no
longer filter that crap out.
(16:08):
Just.
The animals just bombarded withtoo many byproducts and chemical
components that, that just can'tdeal with it anymore.
But they trying to solve oneproblem
Jennifer (16:19):
by creating another.
Jeff (16:22):
Exactly.
Jennifer (16:23):
All right, so how does all of this go to manure?
Jeff (16:29):
All right, so early indications of mycotoxins.
So when you have when you'reseeing a mycotoxin, if it's a
mycotoxin and there's otherproblems with manure, but
mycotoxin will tend to be you'regonna start to see looser.
Okay?
The bird's gonna drink more andeat less.
So this is actually prettyimportant for all poultry owners
(16:52):
to understand, is we need a wayto monitor how much feed the
bird ate and how much water thebird drank, right?
Even if we do it at a flocklevel.
So if you feed 25 pounds offeed, which is enough for a
hundred chickens, right?
And you, they should consume 50pounds of water.
(17:12):
Okay.
It's not really that hard to do,right?
So even if you wanna look at itfrom a five gallon bucket
standpoint, five gallons ofwater is 43 pounds.
Okay?
So that should be pretty closeto, they consume 20 pounds of
feed.
Anytime that ratio getssignificant, severely outta
(17:34):
line, right?
Then we have to start lookingfor some sort of health issue.
And I really think mycotoxintype issues are being
misdiagnosed by a large amountof poultry keepers out there.
And they start thinking they gotco acidosis or they got worms.
Next thing I know, they'regrabbing CID or they're
(17:56):
grabbing, I have a neck, orthey're doing something and they
don't really know what they had.
Somebody said, oh, that's CoxIDs.
You better give cord.
You can get loose manure from awhole bunch of things, right?
It's not always co acidosis andit's rarely worms, but that's
the easy thing to do.
And everybody's scared.
So mycotoxins are gonna give youloose manure.
(18:19):
I'll tell you what, you feed toomany table scraps to your
chickens, too many greens,whether it's lettuce, carrot
tops beet tops, whatever.
They're gonna get loose manure.
And it's not a mycotoxin, it'sthey consumed more fluid that
day.
They drank more water that day,which caused that manure to be
(18:41):
runny.
It's probably gonna stick totheir back end, right?
Again, another big red flag,people think, oh, I got coi.
The manure's sticking to theirback end.
No, you don't have coy.
You probably fed'em somethingthey weren't used to.
And you know they got theHershey squirts.
So just don't get excited if youdon't see blood in the manure,
(19:02):
you don't have, COI
Carey (19:04):
ain't happening.
See, like I, I had somebodywanna argue with me the other
day because they were trying tofigure out what they could grow
for their birds to eat.
And this specific question wasabout quail.
And I was like, why?
Why don't you just feed themgame bird starter, grower layer
(19:26):
pellet?
Like, why don't you just feedthem that because you know you
shouldn't feed them plants?
And they're like that's whatthey eat in the wild, so why
can't they eat that here?
And I'm like,
Jeff (19:41):
you didn't redirect them to me.
You didn't redirect them to meso I could have fun with that.
That was one of those enjoyablemoments for me.
Carey (19:49):
Unfortunately, io specifically, I think
Jeff (19:52):
that I may have actually got kicked outta a Facebook
group.
Ah, goodo Koil are Insect andSea des.
Okay.
That's exactly what they do inthe wild, before we turn them
into what they are today.
Before we screwed'em up theywould really aid a high level of
(20:13):
insects, so they spent themajority of their day looking
for insects, but they didn'tturn down, a grass seed or a
native seed.
They like beach nuts.
They like small acorns, they canreally get down some pretty big
pieces if you let'em.
Carey (20:29):
I just asked a simple question.
When was the last time you sawquail out in the wild?
'cause people will typicallyhatch'em out and grow'em in a
barn, and there's a lady thathatches out hundreds of
thousands of'em a year just sohunters can buy'em at hunting
clubs and.
Yeah, they can shoot them.
So she must be doing Bob White?
(20:50):
Yeah, she, that lady does BobWhite.
But you know that you don'treally see them in the wild
where they hatch.
'cause quail don't really getBrody.
So that was part of my wholeargument with the whole thing
and their crap will look likecrap.
And.
(21:11):
Yeah, you don't feed'em spinach'cause that's not what they
want.
Jeff (21:17):
But that's what I want'em to eat.
It's like feeding a dogvegetarian diet.
It's that's, I can't believethey make vegan dog.
They can, they make vegan dogfood for real.
That's,
Jennifer (21:27):
Sorry if you're vegan.
Anyway.
Crazy anyway.
So if you're feeding your indoorcoil layer pellets and you have
that lime green poo, what doesthat tell you?
Jeff (21:40):
So usually like a lime green.
Okay.
And the color really makes adifference.
So if I see lime green for oneday, if I see, a spot here or
there on a day on a given day.
It's actually the bile ductconnected to the liver that is,
(22:00):
it's just recycling itself,right?
So when that bile duct emptiesout, you're gonna see that lime
green, almost fluorescent greenkind of coloration, and then
that poop, and it usually won'tcontinue, for more than a day.
Okay?
It should be extremely spottyand rare.
Now I realize you got, a hundredquail in a pen or more, but, so
(22:24):
you might see two or three in aday.
If it was feed related or if itwas disease related, you'd see
50% of that daily poo, showingup like that.
It's just part of the naturalcycle, right?
They're gonna do that andwhether it's chickens, no matter
what foul it is, right?
(22:44):
That bile duct is gonnaregenerate itself and it's gonna
dump out the old bile, andyou're gonna, it's gonna rebuild
new.
Now, under some stressconditions, they may dump that
out.
Okay?
I don't wanna see it repeatedly,for more than, a whole bunch of
days in a row.
But, like I said, if it's threeor four out of a hundred, five
(23:08):
out of a hundred on a given day.
And it's nothing that I getconcerned about.
All right.
Really I'm looking for when youget a drastic color in your poo
and you didn't change the feed,right?
You're feeding the same feed,you feed them every day, and all
of a sudden, you know it, whatthe colors I'm worried about
are, like when it goes all whiteor if it goes all yellow.
(23:33):
Rusty colored, right?
That's a warning sign thatsomething in the digestive tract
is not functioning correctly.
Okay?
So whether they've been exposedto some sort of outside
bacteria, basically giving thema stomach flu.
Or something like food poisoningand, if you've ever had food
(23:53):
poisoning, you know what it'slike, right?
You eat something four hourslater, you don't want to be more
than about 10 steps from atoilet.
And that can happen to ouranimals as well.
And it's often misdiagnosed.
Like that wet feed you weretalking about, Gary.
If I kept that and I fed throughthat for three days, yeah.
I'm gonna I'm gonna see, a wholebunch of food poisoning going on
(24:16):
in those birds.
Got it.
And then it's gonna, again, it'sgonna end up being misdiagnosed,
which, can be annoying.
It is annoying actually.
But we're ha we're doing this sopeople are.
Better educated and moreinformed.
So hopefully, more quail won'tdie from the overuse of court.
Jennifer (24:37):
So what is yellow, loose, runny stool?
Jeff (24:42):
So actually when it's that, so sulf free yellow like
that bright yellow kind ofcolor.
Daffodil yellow, if that's abetter, correlation for you.
That's actually a sign that thebird probably hasn't eaten for
quite a while.
And the digestive tract is emptyand the last thing that pushes
(25:03):
out is that yellow.
And,'cause that's theaccumulation.
So the bird's kind of feeding onitself and in the gut.
There's no feed for the bacteriato feed on.
So it'll build up that brightyellow sulfur looking, slime
manure, slimy poop.
And then that's what it'll, soit's a, it's really a sign of an
(25:25):
empty digestive tract and thebird is not eating, and then we
have to figure out why.
Okay.
Do they have a fever?
Is it stress related?
Try and figure out again, if Isee one in a hundred, I don't
get overly excited.
If I see 10% or more, then Ireally start getting excited.
(25:45):
First thing I would do is changeout.
Get a different, bag of feedjust to make sure that it wasn't
the feed.
I'd get a fresh bag.
Jennifer (25:53):
The one I'm envisioning is more like baby
poop yellow, where that, I don'tknow how to describe it.
I don't know okay.
So
Jeff (26:02):
there's one that's a little bit more there's one
that's a little bit more to anorange color.
Jennifer (26:07):
Yeah.
Jeff (26:07):
Yeah.
Jennifer (26:08):
That
Jeff (26:08):
similar to Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
So when it leans a little bitmore to the orange versus the
bright fluorescent yellow.
That is a Clostridium most ofthe time that's a Clostridium
bacteria gut infection.
So the bird is eaten somethingthat is spoiled probably off the
ground or corner of the feederor, this is a prime example of
(26:32):
when feed gets wet.
Especially if it's in acompacted area, like in the
corner of the feeder and thatgets any moisture and clumps.
I don't know if you ever seeclumps of feed coming out of the
feeders like when you clean thefeeders.
All right.
So the clumps have a reducedamount of oxygen content because
the, it's all congealed togetherand clumpy.
(26:54):
And it's a great growingenvironment for Clostridium.
Okay.
So to me that is most often, notalways, nothing in life is
always Exactly.
So there's no perfect answer.
But that's most of the timetends to be a Clostridium
infection, where they've eaten.
(27:15):
And the weird thing aboutClostridium in those clumps.
Next time you pull one of thoseclumps out, they have this
uniquely, almost like sickening,sweet smell to'em.
You may not really like it, butit does okay.
Because it has that partiallyfermented, wants to try to go to
that alcohol wet mash type smellfor those who like to make their
(27:36):
own moonshine.
And it has a little bit of anaddicting or attracting smell to
it, and the birds will eat itand.
They like it it makes'em feel alittle euphoric at first.
So they come back and they keepeating it, right?
Keep digging at that clump andthey keep eating it.
And eventually you end up, aftertwo or three days you end up
(27:57):
with poop like that.
Jennifer (27:59):
Does it just work itself out the system?
Jeff (28:03):
You can have mortality from it if you if those clumps
don't disappear and they don'tget back on.
'cause like I said, it's habitfarming, right?
And you know that those birdsare gonna go back to eating and
because they like it, they'regonna go back there and keep
eating it.
So if they eat it for a week,you probably would start seeing
(28:23):
mortality out of it.
It takes about three days to seethat kind of color poop.
And
Jennifer (28:30):
so the reason why I was bringing that up is in the
Turkey pen every once in awhile, often enough that I
notice it, but not.
Like a daily thing that I seethat yellow poop, but nobody's
died and nobody seems sick.
They just keep going.
But I have a hanging feeder, sothat may be what it is.
(28:50):
They're clumping up some food inthere from the moisture in the
air
Jeff (28:55):
when you start talking about larger foul, when we get
away from quail where they haveopportunity to eat other places.
So like your large foul and yourturkeys?
What I start looking for are thepotholes.
They like to, they'll find aspot that's all kind of capped
over and clumped, and thenthey'll start digging a hole in
(29:15):
it, right?
And they like to get down inthere and they want to scratch
and eat what's down below thatcapped off area.
And those potholes are usually,I call'em potholes'cause that's
what they remind me of.
But those potholes are usuallythe place that's holding those
pathogenic bacteria.
So you wanna try and break upclumps.
(29:36):
You don't want to let things getcapped over with bedding, manure
and feeds, spillage, and, so foroutdoor, like your turkeys I
would encourage you to move thatfeeder to a new location every
three to four days.
But for this is gonna blow yourmind, Jennifer, so just hang
(29:57):
onto your sheet.
Okay.
Fully matured or large turkeyshonestly prefer to eat.
Out of a five gallon bucket, youwill be much further ahead to
feed them straight out of a fivegallon bucket and putting feed
in the feeder for a Turkey.
Jennifer (30:16):
How are they gonna get down in there?
They're not that big.
I.
Jeff (30:20):
Like your adult, they're bourbon reds.
They're your adult bourbon Redswill be able to eat halfway
down.
So here's the cycle, right?
They'll eat about halfway downthat bucket, okay?
They can reach down in there andthey'll enjoy it.
Okay?
And then the next day, or whenyou get to that halfway mark and
you come out with, you know thatmuch feed in a bucket and you
(30:43):
put yesterday's feed on top of.
What you just carried out thereand you just keep that rotation
going right, and that's how youkeep it.
But a farmer friend of mine upin northeastern Ohio.
He went out to tend his turkeysone day.
And he's, he got so tired offighting them to put the feed in
the feeder.
(31:03):
And one day he sat down all ofhis four, five gallon buckets
that he took off of his, gatoror whatever, four wheeler and.
He was emptying out the feedersand moving them around and
getting'em where he wanted them.
He turned around and every oneof his turkeys were standing
there eating right out of thetop of the five gallon bucket,
and they was just the happiestturkeys ever.
(31:24):
And he had the epiphany, why amI put, why am I fighting this?
To put feed in a feeder if theyprefer the bucket?
Anyway, so he went to feedingout of a five gallon bucket.
And you can start this whenyou're younger, like you can get
the one gallon buckets.
When they're, six, eight weeksold, and as they get bigger,
then you can go to the twogallon bucket, three gallon, you
(31:45):
can step'em up as they getolder.
They have so much more funeating out of a bucket.
Why we put it into a feed troughor a hanging feeder is beyond
me.
They don't care.
Jennifer (31:57):
No, they don't.
And then, and actually thatmakes sense for my, my grow outs
when I have'em in thesummertime.
I generally use one of thosedeep flex black flex bowls, and
I just mound it up because they,by the time I get the gate
locked, they've eaten half of itanyway.
Carey (32:15):
Yeah.
Jennifer (32:16):
If y'all don't have turkeys, they eat more than
pigs, I swear.
They do.
They eat a lot of feed.
Yeah.
Jeff (32:26):
Turkeys and pigs are my two favorite farm animals, so
we're not gonna pick on them.
Carey (32:31):
Oh, I love that they're the only
Jeff (32:32):
two animals.
Yeah.
They're the only two animalsthat really care.
If you show up every day,they're happy to seed.
The rest of them really don'tcare.
Carey (32:41):
And that they
Jeff (32:41):
both have great personalities.
Carey (32:43):
Since getting turkeys or since getting pigs.
I've noticed that if they see meor hear me, they start making
that noise and they'll come tothe fence and they're like,
where you at?
What you got?
Did you bring me something toeat?
Jennifer (33:02):
They laugh your jokes.
Carey (33:04):
Yeah, they do.
They do.
And if turkeys are close enoughto you while you're talking to
the pigs, the turkeys are makingthat little.
It is almost like a littlechirp, high pitched chirping,
sound like they're trying totalk and they're like, what are
you talking about?
Are you gonna come see me?
What do you, what are youbringing to me?
(33:26):
I like that I, if I could get mykids to do that, I'd like them
more, or,
Jeff (33:32):
I hate to tell you this, but raising pigs is better than
raising kids every day of theweek.
Carey (33:38):
I've got.
I got a lot.
So I do have more kids inturkeys or pigs, even combined.
So I could agree with that.
Jennifer (33:48):
The ducks talk to you the most, but they can talk to
you.
So if you want them to shut up,they talk a lot okay.
I like them all.
I have them all.
That's why I like them.
So what about duck poop?
What makes it so wet?
And all the time, like it comesout all the time.
(34:09):
Is it from all the water filterfeeding?
Jeff (34:12):
It's partly that, but also your waterfowl are better
grazers, so they're going toconsume more greenery than any
chicken ever will.
Okay.
Turkeys are good.
Turkeys are better thanchickens.
Chickens are okay at eatinggrass, but they're, it's not
really what they want.
They'll eat some.
About 5% of their diet is aboutall you're gonna get a chicken
(34:35):
to eat.
Turkeys can be up to 10%, butnow ducks, you can get up into
that 20% range if you've gotreally good grazing for'em and
they're happy.
And then geese can be evenhigher than that.
If you've got the right, ifyou've got the right range for
'em out there, forages ducks canget 30%.
(34:55):
Off of what they're eating, outthere ranging around, but it's
gotta be the right stuff, right?
Jennifer (35:03):
So when I got out of all this technical stuff that
you gave us is to pay attentionto what they're eating and then
look at their poop and see ifit's changed.
So if you fed them, say a bunchof watermelon, it's probably
gonna be a lot runnier than itwas before.
Jeff (35:20):
It's gonna be a lot run here because I used to do that.
Yeah, you're dead on right therebecause, I had a grumpy old
neighbor and he always just, hepissed and moaned about
everything he could think about.
Right?
And, one day he'd come over andhe was complaining about my cat
digging up the fish he had inthe garden.
He buried fish to grow hisplants.
(35:41):
And he was complaining about mycat and blah, blah, blah.
And one day I walked over and Ijust, I gave him two dozen eggs,
right?
And he just, he didn't know whatto say.
A couple days later, he ran alittle fruit stand alongside the
road.
A couple days later, theunsalable, cantaloupe or
watermelon started showing up onmy porch for the chickens.
(36:02):
And I, every now and then I'dgive him a dozen eggs and he was
happy.
Never, he never complained aboutmy cats again, ever.
And, but yeah.
When you crack open awatermelon, I don't wanna get 25
to 30 chickens in the backyardfor eggs for us and mom and, a
few friends, but they couldclean up 25 chickens can clean
up a watermelon in no time.
(36:23):
I don't know where they put it.
Oh
Carey (36:24):
God.
They can,
Jennifer (36:26):
they just leave that green skin.
That's all that's left.
Carey (36:29):
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
In the summertime when it'sgonna be a hundred plus.
I'll get a watermelon and I'llput like a huge chunk in my grow
out pen and then I'll cut uplittle sections and put in my
breeding pens and they just gonuts.
But it's a lot of hydration.
Jeff (36:53):
No nutrition.
No nutrition.
All you did is gave'em pinkwater.
Okay,
Carey (36:59):
That's fine.
Just know that I feed them.
I feed them Bougie feed.
Jennifer (37:05):
Okay.
So there's really nothing we cando at this point about
mycotoxins except keep our feeddry, right?
Jeff (37:11):
You can, I know I you didn't ask me that question.
You said what are we doing aboutit?
So there are some excellentproducts on the market.
The one I stand behind is aproduct called Redmond
Conditioner.
It is made by Redmond Mineralsand Redmond, Utah.
Okay.
That's how it got its name.
It's not a person.
(37:32):
So that's a lot of Redmond.
That's a lot of Redmond.
So it's actually a volcanic ashdeposit from whenever, the
continents, the continentalshift or whatever happened out
there in Utah.
And it they just go, scrape itoff the top, and.
It has excellent toxin bindingeffects, for pretty much all
(37:55):
animals, right?
So yeah, we can add this to thefeed.
Usually add it at about 1%, sofour ounces for every 25 pounds
of feed, and that does a reallynice job.
And I'd much rather see peopleusing that versus, looking for
chemicals to try and killsomething or.
Jennifer (38:17):
So that will bind up the mycotoxin so it doesn't
affect the birds,
Jeff (38:23):
right?
So most of the mycotoxins are.
Positively charged ions.
Now we're gonna get into somedifferent kind of chemistry
stuff here, and I don't wannalose people, so let's just,
we're gonna keep this as basicas I can make it.
So clay particles, those ashparticles are negatively charged
(38:46):
and.
Most mycotoxins are positivelycharged, so those clay particles
will attach, just like when weplayed with magnets in grade
school, okay?
They're going to attract andattach and they don't allow them
to be entered to be absorbed orenter into the bloodstream, and
(39:09):
they'll come out the backside ofthe chicken.
And we have now, it will make adry, it'll also dry up poop.
So if the poop is a little toorunny it's a great way to
recondition the gut.
Even if you don't havemycotoxins, it'll recondition
that gut and it'll get your poopback to normal moisture levels
(39:30):
or viscosity.
It's really an excellentproduct.
Jennifer (39:36):
Okay.
Is just for the sake ofconversation, is there anything
else like you might have aroundyour house that would do the
same thing?
Jeff (39:46):
Not really.
Not that I can think of.
Carey (39:48):
Okay.
Jeff (39:49):
Nothing.
Pop trick, unless you're keepingactivated charcoal.
You could and you can getactivated charcoal quicker,
'cause you can get it at prettymuch any pharmacy.
So if you weren't prepared andsomething hit your flock, you
could run down and get a couplepounds of activated charcoal.
But by the time you buy it atWalgreens CVS or wherever you
(40:09):
go, it's pretty expensive atthat point.
You could, nah, Jennifer, you'reone of those people.
You could make your own biochar,which is activated to charcoal
and you could keep some on handall the time, right?
So that would work for you.
Not everybody's gonna makebiochar, but biochar would be
(40:31):
almost as good at buffering outthe toxins.
Okay.
And actually, for if people wantto actually start making
biochar, I'm all in for lettingpeople, free choice it, don't
mix it in the feed you just likeyou do with your grit and your
oyster shelf kinda thing.
If you wanted some biochar outthere and let the, an, the birds
(40:55):
self dose on it, they know theycan figure it out.
We don't need to, we don't needto choke'em with it.
And they, as long as it's easyto find they'll find it.
Jennifer (41:08):
Cool.
Is there anything else we needto know before we wrap it up for
the day?
Jeff (41:16):
There's lot.
Carey (41:17):
I gotta know something.
There's
Jeff (41:18):
lots I can talk about poop forever.
Carey (41:21):
Will apple cider vinegar kill your birds in the
summertime?
Jeff (41:25):
I have, I'm on my 29th year and I have never ever seen
that happen, right?
I have only seen positiveeffects with the apple cider
vinegar, but.
Where they're coming up with,I've seen those posts and I've
seen people talk about it and Ihave no idea how they come up to
that conclusion that it's gonnacause some sort of acidosis or
(41:51):
something and cause it increasedthe heat stress on the bird.
I've never seen that.
And apple cider vinegar combinedwith other things, has been used
for.
More than 500 years as anelectrolyte replacement, for
farmers for pretty mucheverything.
Carey (42:12):
And I was gonna say don't commercial poultry houses, buy
it either in the 55 gallon drumor in the 275 gallon tote and
inject it into their water.
Some do all the time.
Jeff (42:28):
Yeah, some do.
Yeah, they're running it, at 200to one or a hundred to one,
something like that.
It gets expensive on thecommercial level, and they're
targeting certain windows ofopportunity, when they may run
into necrotic enteritis or COCCacidosis.
They also know that acidifyingchicken's gut the digestive
(42:50):
track of poultry.
Actually increases feedefficiency and keeps'em
healthier, right?
So they're less likely to getpathogenic bacteria, co
acidosis, things like that.
So it's a pretty goodpreventative.
Like I said, I have no ideawhere that post came from.
(43:11):
I've only seen it once, And Ihaven't tracked it back, but.
Where people are talking aboutapple cider vinegar will deplete
calcium from their bones, isanother one that I hear.
It's if your feed has thecorrect amount of calcium in it.
No, it's not gonna do that.
So people also don't understandthat even though you feed
(43:32):
dietary calcium to your birdsto, for the eggshells there's
always a transfer of calciumfrom the bloodstream to the
bone, and then from the bone tomake an egg.
So it is part of the normalroutine.
All the calcium for an egg doesnot come out of the digestive
tract.
Carey (44:00):
Okay.
I was just curious about thatbecause people have all, every
summer it's this huge thing andI'm like, mine mind drinking it
every day.
Yeah.
So yeah,
Jeff (44:18):
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Carey (44:19):
All right.
We appreciate you coming on withus today and talking about your
favorite subject.
We can get a whole lot
Jeff (44:27):
of poop.
We got stuck on mycotoxins, but,all right, that's, we had a
little bit of poop.
So the bottom line is if youdon't, if you don't see red in
the poop that looks blood red.
Blood red, okay?
Not this little, not okay.
If you don't see blood coloredred in the poop.
It's not cocc acidosis.
Okay?
(44:49):
And you can prove me wrong.
Take a manure sample, do a fecalfloat, count the eggs, count the
OO cyst in a gram of whateverpoop.
Okay?
I don't care if it's yours.
Your chickens, your quails, yourdogs, whatever.
It's pretty much universal.
So there is supposed to be for ahealthy poultry digestive tract,
(45:13):
I.
There should be between 40 and60 co cocc, acidosis, os, or
egg, if you will, in every gramof poultry poop, and it's
supposed to be there.
If I see numbers below 40, I'mreally worried.
(45:34):
That bird is not healthy at all.
Okay.
When you get above 60, you canstart to be a little bit
concerned.
Really?
You don't see blood in the poopuntil you get up around a
hundred.
Jennifer (45:47):
Are you saying, suggesting that a digestive
system is like an ecosystem andlike they all coexist in there?
Jeff (46:00):
Everything's an ecosystem.
From the world scale to, all theway down to the soil.
If you pulled up a gram of soiland you looked okay, there's
this many nematodes and thismany co acidosis and this many
bacteria and this many fungi.
Everything is a microbiome atits own level.
(46:24):
People check their own poop.
They're gonna be amazed.
There's co acidosis in there,and it's supposed to be there.
Jennifer (46:32):
It is all about balance.
Jeff (46:35):
It's all about balance.
Jennifer (46:37):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
Carey (46:43):
Yeah.
Sterile people, diet soonerain't we're supposed to eat a
balanced diet.
So if it works for people, wedon't, But if that's what people
should do, that's what birdseverything should do.
Jeff (46:53):
That makes sense and people should get out of the way
and quit making thingsimbalanced.
Okay?
They just need to, they need toroll with it, and they need to
check the numbers, right?
They need to pick up an old usedmicroscope somewhere that still
works.
They need to learn how to dotheir own fecal floats.
They need to quit having kneejerk reactions.
They need to quit overreacting.
(47:16):
Okay.
You do subtle changes to fixthings.
You don't go in with somethingthat ends in CID and kill
everything and start.
'cause every time you do that,you start over, right?
You just cleaned the chalkboardand you clean the slate.
We're starting over and thatactually drags down the immune
(47:40):
system of the bird.
Because immunity for everycreature is in the gut and how
well it functions.
Eh, the immunity of every livingcreature depends on its
digestive tract.
Jennifer (47:56):
Yep.
Jeff (47:58):
All right.
Jennifer (47:59):
All right.
Thank you.
Jeff (48:01):
We'll pick it up later.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
Jennifer (48:05):
Okay.
All right everybody, we are back with an exciting
episode and this is gonna be onethat we're going to try our best
to describe to you what itshould look like.
'cause we know that y'all arelistening, not watching.
But we have the infamous JeffMaddox on today and he is going
(00:22):
to talk about in this episodethe exciting.
World of manure.
Y'all asked what's wrong with mybird?
And several people have laughedat me when I said, can you send
me a picture of their crap andtheir feed tag?
(00:43):
We're gonna have Jeff on hereand we're gonna let him explain
what different crap looks like,what we're looking for and how
to do it.
Jeff, how are you today?
I'm good.
You?
I'm good.
You ready to tell us aboutmycotoxins and all those good
(01:04):
indicators that let people knowwhat the crap is wrong with
their chicken when they look attheir crap?
Jeff (01:11):
Yeah, you can tell a lot by looking at the droppings.
So let's do, what is themycotoxin.
A mycotoxin, and that's in theearly slides that we have, but
nobody's gonna see that, but amycotoxin.
So when you have a mold or afungus or okay, so penicillin,
(01:35):
because it is the byproduct of abread mold.
It is.
Could be considered a mycotoxin.
So it is what is left behindafter a bacteria or a fungus has
lived and expired and died.
So it's a secondary metabolite,right?
(01:55):
So it's the chemical compoundIt.
This is a show about poop.
So it is basically the poop offungus and bacteria.
There's the easy way to say it.
So it's what's left behind aftermolds and tox or after molds and
fungis have lived and died.
(02:17):
That's the easiest way to sayit.
That's pretty simple's a lotcomplex and chemical.
Yeah.
That's the easiest way to thinkabout it, and now if a PhD that
has a degree in microbiologywatches this show or listens to
this show, they're gonna belike, that's not what it is.
Okay.
Yeah.
(02:37):
At the end of the day, that'sreally what it is.
Okay.
Jennifer (02:40):
All right, so why are they important?
Jeff (02:43):
Because if you actually go to the bio website you'll find
that 80% of all the grainsamples that they pull in and do
random testing all over theworld, not just here in the
grand old United States.
All test positive formycotoxins.
(03:04):
Okay?
These organisms actually live inthe soil and they're waiting for
a prime opportunity.
Whether it's weather, stress,too much rain, not enough rain,
whatever.
If the plant's under stress,then these molds are fungus.
We will start growing on theplant, and so they're gonna be
(03:26):
there, but.
Because of our agriculturalsystem being bigger, faster or
whatever.
And they say better, but it'sreally not.
And the the theory of no-tillfarming where you just go out
there and spray it and kill it,and you plant right into
whatever's left, you actuallyleave behind enough crop residue
(03:49):
from the previous crop to keepthose spores.
Alive for the different moldsand fungus.
So we're seeing a higher andhigher contamination rate.
And so yeah.
So when the plant is reallysmall, when it's a seedling just
coming out of the ground, if weget a heavy rain, it'll splash
(04:13):
dirt.
Or manure or whatever they usedup onto the tissue of the plant,
right?
So it's high enough up on theplant that dirt residue will,
that dirt residue will remain asthe plant matures.
And in the final stages ofripening off where you have,
(04:34):
highly condensed starches andenergies, right?
You get another rain or you getthat stress event and.
It gets a chance to grow.
Like fusarium, on a wheat cropor a barley crop or something
like that.
It's actually looks pretty pink.
Yeah, you can go after and youcan see it, and then eventually
(04:55):
it'll go to this black blackishgray kind of musty looking.
But in the early stages, it'sgot a kind of a pretty purplish
pink Q to it.
Some are blue, but most of themare pink.
Carey (05:18):
So what room goes silent?
Yeah.
Like I'm just thinking, you knowthe difference.
Jeff (05:26):
Let me wind up the cat
Carey (05:27):
again.
So now let me ask this.
That all happens when the grainsare still in the ground or in
the fields or wherever they'reat.
If you, I saw this recently onone of the groups.
Somebody got a bag of feed wetand they're like, what's the
(05:48):
best way to dry it out?
If my okay if I have a bag offeed that gets soaked in the
rain.
How much time do I have beforethat crap becomes toxic and
starts growing mold?
Jeff (06:06):
You have about 24 hours.
It depends on the feed, if it'swhole grain or if it's, if we're
talking like mash and pellets.
You've got.
24 hours.
Okay.
If I had greens, like someonewas trying to ferment it, I
could probably sneak that alongfor, maybe two days.
And here's the thing, as soon asthat bag, if it gets really wet
(06:28):
inside birds like wet feet,there's no doubt about that.
They like wet clumpy feet.
So if you feed it soon enough,right?
You catch it, you've seen it,right?
You can open that bag up and youcan get it out there in front of
as many birds as possible,right?
And get through it that first 12to 24 hours, you really don't
(06:48):
have a problem.
Okay?
Everything after that 24 hourmark is a gamble on what's
grown.
So a lot of those seeds are, alot of those seeds still have
active spores on them.
And that's why you've heard meand I discourage people from
doing the fermented feed thing.
(07:10):
It really bothers me because Idon't know.
How many active mold or fungusspores are still alive and
viable in that bag of feed theybought, whether it's pellet,
crumble, whole grain, whatever.
Okay.
Carey (07:27):
And that's just because you don't know the source.
You don't know if it's, whatkind of pesticides they sprayed
on it.
You don't know any of that.
I dunno, either.
I don't know.
None of that, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so let
Jennifer (07:39):
me back up for just a minute.
So you were talking about howthe plant grows and then the
water's splashing up and that'swhere the stuff the mycotoxins
come from.
So now we're translating thatinto the bag of feed.
And when you get it wet, that'swhat takes off the day.
Makes it bad,
Jeff (07:56):
right?
Okay.
So when the plant is still aseedling, right?
When it's down in what they callthe flag stage, where it's one
or two leafs out of the ground,right?
And depending on your weather,like I said, if you get a heavy
thunderstorm, a really heavydownpour, it's going to splash
soil particles up off the groundonto the plant tissue.
(08:21):
Okay.
And they're gonna stay there aslong as the plant grows,
especially, okay.
We've all seen a young plant,right?
It comes up and it makes a v.
Carey (08:30):
Okay.
Jeff (08:31):
So if that dirt or that soil I hate to call it dirt, it
soil's a living creature.
But if you splash some of thatsoil up into that crown or that
opening between those twoleaves, okay, it's gonna stay
there forever, right?
And it's gonna grow with theplant and every, and it's gonna
feed on the moisture of theplant.
(08:51):
And every time you get rain, youknow it, it lives there and it's
gonna be viable.
So throughout the lifecycle ofthe plant, no matter what crop
we're talking about, that, it'sgonna, it's gonna transfer right
through, it's gonna keep ongoing, and then when that plant
decides to ripen off, right?
(09:13):
When it makes its grain and itsets fruit, whatever, however
you wanna refer to it, now youhave that high carbohydrate,
high starch environment.
That's really, it's a perfect.
Breeding ground or growingground for that fungus or that
bacteria, to do something tocontinue its lifecycle, right?
It's trying to live too, justlike the plane.
(09:37):
So it's gonna, and in the south,where you all are.
We tend to see more likeaflatoxin and some mycotoxins,
in the north.
We don't have the heat stressusually, so we don't usually, we
don't have an extended period ofheat stress, so we don't fight
(09:57):
as much aflatoxin, which is adifferent category, but it's
still part of the mycotoxinfamily.
So there's a bunch of differentmycotoxins out there.
Most labs will test for 11 or 12different types or strains.
It's not a cheap test.
Last time I looked it was about88 bucks to do a mycotoxin test,
(10:18):
but you got bad feed, you canlose$88 in a hurry, if you've
got a breeding flock or you'vegot high dollar birds, show
birds, whatever.
Carey (10:28):
See that's why when I saw them talking about.
I saw one person say, lay a tarpout and put a fan on it and
this, that, and the other.
And I was like, you're probablyat a$20 bag of feed and you're
risking that, like, how manybirds do you have?
(10:49):
Just go feed the crap out of'emand let'em.
Eat off of it, yeah.
Do something, but get rid of itover the next couple of days.
Again, that's one of the reasonswhy I like to have pigs on the
farm because,
Jeff (11:06):
okay.
Now wait.
Hold on.
You get some wet chicken feed?
No, hold on.
Because pigs have a lowertolerance for mycotoxins than
poultry do.
You start feeding moldy crap toto a pig, and you're gonna lose
pigs in a hurry.
Okay?
So again, the 12 to 24 hourmark.
(11:28):
But they have a lower thresholdor tolerance for most of those
mycotoxins that than a chickendoes.
And the big one that we weretalking about before, you know
the don ba toxin.
Take a really close look atthat.
At that name.
Vomit toxin.
You know how it got its name?
Because they discovered thatpigs a guy named Don Vomit.
(11:53):
No, that's the technical word,but it got the vomit toxin
because it will actually causepigs to vomit.
Jennifer (12:02):
I said, I thought you were saying, okay.
Jeff (12:05):
Yeah.
That's for real.
If.
Jennifer (12:09):
If the mycotoxins getting on the grain at the
plant stage, and let's justassume we don't water our bags
of feed on our daily basis.
Is it important?
Is the amount of mycotoxins inthe feed important or is there
anything we can do about it?
Jeff (12:25):
Look, all your big feed manufacturers doesn't matter
whether it's Tucker, whetherit's Comba, whether it's
Cargill, whether it's Purina, Idon't care.
You name one and every one ofthose is actually, if you read,
I know how, reading down throughthe ingredient list, I know how
to pick it apart and know.
You know what things are inthere for, but they're all
(12:46):
adding a mycotoxin binder or aprotective agent against those
mycotoxins.
Now, when you get the feed wet,all bets are off, right?
Because now you have just, puttoo much salt in the soup and
you can't back up at that point.
(13:08):
Yeah.
The best thing you can do, youget a wet bag of feed.
You feed as much of it as youcan in a 24 hour period, and the
rest of it goes to the compostpile.
Okay.
And that is your safest option,right?
Mix it in the compost pile.
Jennifer (13:24):
So outta curiosity, what's the binder called?
Jeff (13:29):
Yeah, give us some examples.
There's a bunch of them outthere.
There's like micro curb, there'sMicroban.
Most of'em will have a sodiumaluminum silicate in'em.
Some of'em break'em down and usetheir really long technical
name, which isn't coming to mindright now.
A bunch of'em, you'll see likeproponic acid in there as a
preservative.
(13:50):
Some use aquin as apreservative.
And I don't want nothing to dowith aquin.
They've got so many studies thatlink that to cancer and skin
disorders and dogs and cats.
It's and what?
When I read an ingredient listfor somebody.
As soon if I see Aquin orB-H-A-B-H-T in it, it's nope
(14:11):
that right there stops theconversation.
That we're done.
Jennifer (14:16):
Okay.
Writing that down.
B-H-A-B-H-T.
And what was the other ones?
Jeff (14:21):
Equin, E-T-H-O-X.
I screwed that up already.
E-T-H-O-X-Y-Q-U-I-N-E, I think
Jennifer (14:38):
any of those are on there.
Don't buy the feed.
Jeff (14:40):
I don't, I mean that I steer people away from'em,
right?
That's a quick red flag for me.
Why do I wanna put a carcinogeninto my animal that I intend to
eat the meat or eggs out of?
Okay.
And people dig around out thereand find, there is scientific
studies, not just Googleresponses from, Susie Housewife
(15:03):
that will tell you that, Aquinhas a lot it's a known
carcinogenic, right?
But it is the cheapest.
Probably the most effectiveantioxidant or slash
preservative that is availableto the feed industry.
(15:24):
Nobody in the horse or the petfood industry will touch it,
right?
It's not even, it's not even anoption, right?
Because those groups of people,equine people and pet owners.
They already, they're fullyaware of the negative side
effects of Ox Aquit.
Now, I shouldn't say nobody usesit.
There are still some pet foodcompanies that do.
(15:48):
But most of the time when I see,dogs with, the tumorous bumps on
'em and things like that, if Igo back, look at the feed that
they've been eating and so on,I'll usually find aquin or BHT
or BHA or one of those,eventually the liver just can no
longer filter that crap out.
(16:08):
Just.
The animals just bombarded withtoo many byproducts and chemical
components that, that just can'tdeal with it anymore.
But they trying to solve oneproblem
Jennifer (16:19):
by creating another.
Jeff (16:22):
Exactly.
Jennifer (16:23):
All right, so how does all of this go to manure?
Jeff (16:29):
All right, so early indications of mycotoxins.
So when you have when you'reseeing a mycotoxin, if it's a
mycotoxin and there's otherproblems with manure, but
mycotoxin will tend to be you'regonna start to see looser.
Okay?
The bird's gonna drink more andeat less.
So this is actually prettyimportant for all poultry owners
(16:52):
to understand, is we need a wayto monitor how much feed the
bird ate and how much water thebird drank, right?
Even if we do it at a flocklevel.
So if you feed 25 pounds offeed, which is enough for a
hundred chickens, right?
And you, they should consume 50pounds of water.
(17:12):
Okay.
It's not really that hard to do,right?
So even if you wanna look at itfrom a five gallon bucket
standpoint, five gallons ofwater is 43 pounds.
Okay?
So that should be pretty closeto, they consume 20 pounds of
feed.
Anytime that ratio getssignificant, severely outta
(17:34):
line, right?
Then we have to start lookingfor some sort of health issue.
And I really think mycotoxintype issues are being
misdiagnosed by a large amountof poultry keepers out there.
And they start thinking they gotco acidosis or they got worms.
Next thing I know, they'regrabbing CID or they're
(17:56):
grabbing, I have a neck, orthey're doing something and they
don't really know what they had.
Somebody said, oh, that's CoxIDs.
You better give cord.
You can get loose manure from awhole bunch of things, right?
It's not always co acidosis andit's rarely worms, but that's
the easy thing to do.
And everybody's scared.
So mycotoxins are gonna give youloose manure.
(18:19):
I'll tell you what, you feed toomany table scraps to your
chickens, too many greens,whether it's lettuce, carrot
tops beet tops, whatever.
They're gonna get loose manure.
And it's not a mycotoxin, it'sthey consumed more fluid that
day.
They drank more water that day,which caused that manure to be
(18:41):
runny.
It's probably gonna stick totheir back end, right?
Again, another big red flag,people think, oh, I got coi.
The manure's sticking to theirback end.
No, you don't have coy.
You probably fed'em somethingthey weren't used to.
And you know they got theHershey squirts.
So just don't get excited if youdon't see blood in the manure,
(19:02):
you don't have, COI
Carey (19:04):
ain't happening.
See, like I, I had somebodywanna argue with me the other
day because they were trying tofigure out what they could grow
for their birds to eat.
And this specific question wasabout quail.
And I was like, why?
Why don't you just feed themgame bird starter, grower layer
(19:26):
pellet?
Like, why don't you just feedthem that because you know you
shouldn't feed them plants?
And they're like that's whatthey eat in the wild, so why
can't they eat that here?
And I'm like,
Jeff (19:41):
you didn't redirect them to me.
You didn't redirect them to meso I could have fun with that.
That was one of those enjoyablemoments for me.
Carey (19:49):
Unfortunately, io specifically, I think
Jeff (19:52):
that I may have actually got kicked outta a Facebook
group.
Ah, goodo Koil are Insect andSea des.
Okay.
That's exactly what they do inthe wild, before we turn them
into what they are today.
Before we screwed'em up theywould really aid a high level of
(20:13):
insects, so they spent themajority of their day looking
for insects, but they didn'tturn down, a grass seed or a
native seed.
They like beach nuts.
They like small acorns, they canreally get down some pretty big
pieces if you let'em.
Carey (20:29):
I just asked a simple question.
When was the last time you sawquail out in the wild?
'cause people will typicallyhatch'em out and grow'em in a
barn, and there's a lady thathatches out hundreds of
thousands of'em a year just sohunters can buy'em at hunting
clubs and.
Yeah, they can shoot them.
So she must be doing Bob White?
(20:50):
Yeah, she, that lady does BobWhite.
But you know that you don'treally see them in the wild
where they hatch.
'cause quail don't really getBrody.
So that was part of my wholeargument with the whole thing
and their crap will look likecrap.
And.
(21:11):
Yeah, you don't feed'em spinach'cause that's not what they
want.
Jeff (21:17):
But that's what I want'em to eat.
It's like feeding a dogvegetarian diet.
It's that's, I can't believethey make vegan dog.
They can, they make vegan dogfood for real.
That's,
Jennifer (21:27):
Sorry if you're vegan.
Anyway.
Crazy anyway.
So if you're feeding your indoorcoil layer pellets and you have
that lime green poo, what doesthat tell you?
Jeff (21:40):
So usually like a lime green.
Okay.
And the color really makes adifference.
So if I see lime green for oneday, if I see, a spot here or
there on a day on a given day.
It's actually the bile ductconnected to the liver that is,
(22:00):
it's just recycling itself,right?
So when that bile duct emptiesout, you're gonna see that lime
green, almost fluorescent greenkind of coloration, and then
that poop, and it usually won'tcontinue, for more than a day.
Okay?
It should be extremely spottyand rare.
Now I realize you got, a hundredquail in a pen or more, but, so
(22:24):
you might see two or three in aday.
If it was feed related or if itwas disease related, you'd see
50% of that daily poo, showingup like that.
It's just part of the naturalcycle, right?
They're gonna do that andwhether it's chickens, no matter
what foul it is, right?
(22:44):
That bile duct is gonnaregenerate itself and it's gonna
dump out the old bile, andyou're gonna, it's gonna rebuild
new.
Now, under some stressconditions, they may dump that
out.
Okay?
I don't wanna see it repeatedly,for more than, a whole bunch of
days in a row.
But, like I said, if it's threeor four out of a hundred, five
(23:08):
out of a hundred on a given day.
And it's nothing that I getconcerned about.
All right.
Really I'm looking for when youget a drastic color in your poo
and you didn't change the feed,right?
You're feeding the same feed,you feed them every day, and all
of a sudden, you know it, whatthe colors I'm worried about
are, like when it goes all whiteor if it goes all yellow.
(23:33):
Rusty colored, right?
That's a warning sign thatsomething in the digestive tract
is not functioning correctly.
Okay?
So whether they've been exposedto some sort of outside
bacteria, basically giving thema stomach flu.
Or something like food poisoningand, if you've ever had food
(23:53):
poisoning, you know what it'slike, right?
You eat something four hourslater, you don't want to be more
than about 10 steps from atoilet.
And that can happen to ouranimals as well.
And it's often misdiagnosed.
Like that wet feed you weretalking about, Gary.
If I kept that and I fed throughthat for three days, yeah.
I'm gonna I'm gonna see, a wholebunch of food poisoning going on
(24:16):
in those birds.
Got it.
And then it's gonna, again, it'sgonna end up being misdiagnosed,
which, can be annoying.
It is annoying actually.
But we're ha we're doing this sopeople are.
Better educated and moreinformed.
So hopefully, more quail won'tdie from the overuse of court.
Jennifer (24:37):
So what is yellow, loose, runny stool?
Jeff (24:42):
So actually when it's that, so sulf free yellow like
that bright yellow kind ofcolor.
Daffodil yellow, if that's abetter, correlation for you.
That's actually a sign that thebird probably hasn't eaten for
quite a while.
And the digestive tract is emptyand the last thing that pushes
(25:03):
out is that yellow.
And,'cause that's theaccumulation.
So the bird's kind of feeding onitself and in the gut.
There's no feed for the bacteriato feed on.
So it'll build up that brightyellow sulfur looking, slime
manure, slimy poop.
And then that's what it'll, soit's a, it's really a sign of an
(25:25):
empty digestive tract and thebird is not eating, and then we
have to figure out why.
Okay.
Do they have a fever?
Is it stress related?
Try and figure out again, if Isee one in a hundred, I don't
get overly excited.
If I see 10% or more, then Ireally start getting excited.
(25:45):
First thing I would do is changeout.
Get a different, bag of feedjust to make sure that it wasn't
the feed.
I'd get a fresh bag.
Jennifer (25:53):
The one I'm envisioning is more like baby
poop yellow, where that, I don'tknow how to describe it.
I don't know okay.
So
Jeff (26:02):
there's one that's a little bit more there's one
that's a little bit more to anorange color.
Jennifer (26:07):
Yeah.
Jeff (26:07):
Yeah.
Jennifer (26:08):
That
Jeff (26:08):
similar to Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
So when it leans a little bitmore to the orange versus the
bright fluorescent yellow.
That is a Clostridium most ofthe time that's a Clostridium
bacteria gut infection.
So the bird is eaten somethingthat is spoiled probably off the
ground or corner of the feederor, this is a prime example of
(26:32):
when feed gets wet.
Especially if it's in acompacted area, like in the
corner of the feeder and thatgets any moisture and clumps.
I don't know if you ever seeclumps of feed coming out of the
feeders like when you clean thefeeders.
All right.
So the clumps have a reducedamount of oxygen content because
the, it's all congealed togetherand clumpy.
(26:54):
And it's a great growingenvironment for Clostridium.
Okay.
So to me that is most often, notalways, nothing in life is
always Exactly.
So there's no perfect answer.
But that's most of the timetends to be a Clostridium
infection, where they've eaten.
(27:15):
And the weird thing aboutClostridium in those clumps.
Next time you pull one of thoseclumps out, they have this
uniquely, almost like sickening,sweet smell to'em.
You may not really like it, butit does okay.
Because it has that partiallyfermented, wants to try to go to
that alcohol wet mash type smellfor those who like to make their
(27:36):
own moonshine.
And it has a little bit of anaddicting or attracting smell to
it, and the birds will eat itand.
They like it it makes'em feel alittle euphoric at first.
So they come back and they keepeating it, right?
Keep digging at that clump andthey keep eating it.
And eventually you end up, aftertwo or three days you end up
(27:57):
with poop like that.
Jennifer (27:59):
Does it just work itself out the system?
Jeff (28:03):
You can have mortality from it if you if those clumps
don't disappear and they don'tget back on.
'cause like I said, it's habitfarming, right?
And you know that those birdsare gonna go back to eating and
because they like it, they'regonna go back there and keep
eating it.
So if they eat it for a week,you probably would start seeing
(28:23):
mortality out of it.
It takes about three days to seethat kind of color poop.
And
Jennifer (28:30):
so the reason why I was bringing that up is in the
Turkey pen every once in awhile, often enough that I
notice it, but not.
Like a daily thing that I seethat yellow poop, but nobody's
died and nobody seems sick.
They just keep going.
But I have a hanging feeder, sothat may be what it is.
(28:50):
They're clumping up some food inthere from the moisture in the
air
Jeff (28:55):
when you start talking about larger foul, when we get
away from quail where they haveopportunity to eat other places.
So like your large foul and yourturkeys?
What I start looking for are thepotholes.
They like to, they'll find aspot that's all kind of capped
over and clumped, and thenthey'll start digging a hole in
(29:15):
it, right?
And they like to get down inthere and they want to scratch
and eat what's down below thatcapped off area.
And those potholes are usually,I call'em potholes'cause that's
what they remind me of.
But those potholes are usuallythe place that's holding those
pathogenic bacteria.
So you wanna try and break upclumps.
(29:36):
You don't want to let things getcapped over with bedding, manure
and feeds, spillage, and, so foroutdoor, like your turkeys I
would encourage you to move thatfeeder to a new location every
three to four days.
But for this is gonna blow yourmind, Jennifer, so just hang
(29:57):
onto your sheet.
Okay.
Fully matured or large turkeyshonestly prefer to eat.
Out of a five gallon bucket, youwill be much further ahead to
feed them straight out of a fivegallon bucket and putting feed
in the feeder for a Turkey.
Jennifer (30:16):
How are they gonna get down in there?
They're not that big.
I.
Jeff (30:20):
Like your adult, they're bourbon reds.
They're your adult bourbon Redswill be able to eat halfway
down.
So here's the cycle, right?
They'll eat about halfway downthat bucket, okay?
They can reach down in there andthey'll enjoy it.
Okay?
And then the next day, or whenyou get to that halfway mark and
you come out with, you know thatmuch feed in a bucket and you
(30:43):
put yesterday's feed on top of.
What you just carried out thereand you just keep that rotation
going right, and that's how youkeep it.
But a farmer friend of mine upin northeastern Ohio.
He went out to tend his turkeysone day.
And he's, he got so tired offighting them to put the feed in
the feeder.
(31:03):
And one day he sat down all ofhis four, five gallon buckets
that he took off of his, gatoror whatever, four wheeler and.
He was emptying out the feedersand moving them around and
getting'em where he wanted them.
He turned around and every oneof his turkeys were standing
there eating right out of thetop of the five gallon bucket,
and they was just the happiestturkeys ever.
(31:24):
And he had the epiphany, why amI put, why am I fighting this?
To put feed in a feeder if theyprefer the bucket?
Anyway, so he went to feedingout of a five gallon bucket.
And you can start this whenyou're younger, like you can get
the one gallon buckets.
When they're, six, eight weeksold, and as they get bigger,
then you can go to the twogallon bucket, three gallon, you
(31:45):
can step'em up as they getolder.
They have so much more funeating out of a bucket.
Why we put it into a feed troughor a hanging feeder is beyond
me.
They don't care.
Jennifer (31:57):
No, they don't.
And then, and actually thatmakes sense for my, my grow outs
when I have'em in thesummertime.
I generally use one of thosedeep flex black flex bowls, and
I just mound it up because they,by the time I get the gate
locked, they've eaten half of itanyway.
Carey (32:15):
Yeah.
Jennifer (32:16):
If y'all don't have turkeys, they eat more than
pigs, I swear.
They do.
They eat a lot of feed.
Yeah.
Jeff (32:26):
Turkeys and pigs are my two favorite farm animals, so
we're not gonna pick on them.
Carey (32:31):
Oh, I love that they're the only
Jeff (32:32):
two animals.
Yeah.
They're the only two animalsthat really care.
If you show up every day,they're happy to seed.
The rest of them really don'tcare.
Carey (32:41):
And that they
Jeff (32:41):
both have great personalities.
Carey (32:43):
Since getting turkeys or since getting pigs.
I've noticed that if they see meor hear me, they start making
that noise and they'll come tothe fence and they're like,
where you at?
What you got?
Did you bring me something toeat?
Jennifer (33:02):
They laugh your jokes.
Carey (33:04):
Yeah, they do.
They do.
And if turkeys are close enoughto you while you're talking to
the pigs, the turkeys are makingthat little.
It is almost like a littlechirp, high pitched chirping,
sound like they're trying totalk and they're like, what are
you talking about?
Are you gonna come see me?
What do you, what are youbringing to me?
(33:26):
I like that I, if I could get mykids to do that, I'd like them
more, or,
Jeff (33:32):
I hate to tell you this, but raising pigs is better than
raising kids every day of theweek.
Carey (33:38):
I've got.
I got a lot.
So I do have more kids inturkeys or pigs, even combined.
So I could agree with that.
Jennifer (33:48):
The ducks talk to you the most, but they can talk to
you.
So if you want them to shut up,they talk a lot okay.
I like them all.
I have them all.
That's why I like them.
So what about duck poop?
What makes it so wet?
And all the time, like it comesout all the time.
(34:09):
Is it from all the water filterfeeding?
Jeff (34:12):
It's partly that, but also your waterfowl are better
grazers, so they're going toconsume more greenery than any
chicken ever will.
Okay.
Turkeys are good.
Turkeys are better thanchickens.
Chickens are okay at eatinggrass, but they're, it's not
really what they want.
They'll eat some.
About 5% of their diet is aboutall you're gonna get a chicken
(34:35):
to eat.
Turkeys can be up to 10%, butnow ducks, you can get up into
that 20% range if you've gotreally good grazing for'em and
they're happy.
And then geese can be evenhigher than that.
If you've got the right, ifyou've got the right range for
'em out there, forages ducks canget 30%.
(34:55):
Off of what they're eating, outthere ranging around, but it's
gotta be the right stuff, right?
Jennifer (35:03):
So when I got out of all this technical stuff that
you gave us is to pay attentionto what they're eating and then
look at their poop and see ifit's changed.
So if you fed them, say a bunchof watermelon, it's probably
gonna be a lot runnier than itwas before.
Jeff (35:20):
It's gonna be a lot run here because I used to do that.
Yeah, you're dead on right therebecause, I had a grumpy old
neighbor and he always just, hepissed and moaned about
everything he could think about.
Right?
And, one day he'd come over andhe was complaining about my cat
digging up the fish he had inthe garden.
He buried fish to grow hisplants.
(35:41):
And he was complaining about mycat and blah, blah, blah.
And one day I walked over and Ijust, I gave him two dozen eggs,
right?
And he just, he didn't know whatto say.
A couple days later, he ran alittle fruit stand alongside the
road.
A couple days later, theunsalable, cantaloupe or
watermelon started showing up onmy porch for the chickens.
(36:02):
And I, every now and then I'dgive him a dozen eggs and he was
happy.
Never, he never complained aboutmy cats again, ever.
And, but yeah.
When you crack open awatermelon, I don't wanna get 25
to 30 chickens in the backyardfor eggs for us and mom and, a
few friends, but they couldclean up 25 chickens can clean
up a watermelon in no time.
(36:23):
I don't know where they put it.
Oh
Carey (36:24):
God.
They can,
Jennifer (36:26):
they just leave that green skin.
That's all that's left.
Carey (36:29):
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
In the summertime when it'sgonna be a hundred plus.
I'll get a watermelon and I'llput like a huge chunk in my grow
out pen and then I'll cut uplittle sections and put in my
breeding pens and they just gonuts.
But it's a lot of hydration.
Jeff (36:53):
No nutrition.
No nutrition.
All you did is gave'em pinkwater.
Okay,
Carey (36:59):
That's fine.
Just know that I feed them.
I feed them Bougie feed.
Jennifer (37:05):
Okay.
So there's really nothing we cando at this point about
mycotoxins except keep our feeddry, right?
Jeff (37:11):
You can, I know I you didn't ask me that question.
You said what are we doing aboutit?
So there are some excellentproducts on the market.
The one I stand behind is aproduct called Redmond
Conditioner.
It is made by Redmond Mineralsand Redmond, Utah.
Okay.
That's how it got its name.
It's not a person.
(37:32):
So that's a lot of Redmond.
That's a lot of Redmond.
So it's actually a volcanic ashdeposit from whenever, the
continents, the continentalshift or whatever happened out
there in Utah.
And it they just go, scrape itoff the top, and.
It has excellent toxin bindingeffects, for pretty much all
(37:55):
animals, right?
So yeah, we can add this to thefeed.
Usually add it at about 1%, sofour ounces for every 25 pounds
of feed, and that does a reallynice job.
And I'd much rather see peopleusing that versus, looking for
chemicals to try and killsomething or.
Jennifer (38:17):
So that will bind up the mycotoxin so it doesn't
affect the birds,
Jeff (38:23):
right?
So most of the mycotoxins are.
Positively charged ions.
Now we're gonna get into somedifferent kind of chemistry
stuff here, and I don't wannalose people, so let's just,
we're gonna keep this as basicas I can make it.
So clay particles, those ashparticles are negatively charged
(38:46):
and.
Most mycotoxins are positivelycharged, so those clay particles
will attach, just like when weplayed with magnets in grade
school, okay?
They're going to attract andattach and they don't allow them
to be entered to be absorbed orenter into the bloodstream, and
(39:09):
they'll come out the backside ofthe chicken.
And we have now, it will make adry, it'll also dry up poop.
So if the poop is a little toorunny it's a great way to
recondition the gut.
Even if you don't havemycotoxins, it'll recondition
that gut and it'll get your poopback to normal moisture levels
(39:30):
or viscosity.
It's really an excellentproduct.
Jennifer (39:36):
Okay.
Is just for the sake ofconversation, is there anything
else like you might have aroundyour house that would do the
same thing?
Jeff (39:46):
Not really.
Not that I can think of.
Carey (39:48):
Okay.
Jeff (39:49):
Nothing.
Pop trick, unless you're keepingactivated charcoal.
You could and you can getactivated charcoal quicker,
'cause you can get it at prettymuch any pharmacy.
So if you weren't prepared andsomething hit your flock, you
could run down and get a couplepounds of activated charcoal.
But by the time you buy it atWalgreens CVS or wherever you
(40:09):
go, it's pretty expensive atthat point.
You could, nah, Jennifer, you'reone of those people.
You could make your own biochar,which is activated to charcoal
and you could keep some on handall the time, right?
So that would work for you.
Not everybody's gonna makebiochar, but biochar would be
(40:31):
almost as good at buffering outthe toxins.
Okay.
And actually, for if people wantto actually start making
biochar, I'm all in for lettingpeople, free choice it, don't
mix it in the feed you just likeyou do with your grit and your
oyster shelf kinda thing.
If you wanted some biochar outthere and let the, an, the birds
(40:55):
self dose on it, they know theycan figure it out.
We don't need to, we don't needto choke'em with it.
And they, as long as it's easyto find they'll find it.
Jennifer (41:08):
Cool.
Is there anything else we needto know before we wrap it up for
the day?
Jeff (41:16):
There's lot.
Carey (41:17):
I gotta know something.
There's
Jeff (41:18):
lots I can talk about poop forever.
Carey (41:21):
Will apple cider vinegar kill your birds in the
summertime?
Jeff (41:25):
I have, I'm on my 29th year and I have never ever seen
that happen, right?
I have only seen positiveeffects with the apple cider
vinegar, but.
Where they're coming up with,I've seen those posts and I've
seen people talk about it and Ihave no idea how they come up to
that conclusion that it's gonnacause some sort of acidosis or
(41:51):
something and cause it increasedthe heat stress on the bird.
I've never seen that.
And apple cider vinegar combinedwith other things, has been used
for.
More than 500 years as anelectrolyte replacement, for
farmers for pretty mucheverything.
Carey (42:12):
And I was gonna say don't commercial poultry houses, buy
it either in the 55 gallon drumor in the 275 gallon tote and
inject it into their water.
Some do all the time.
Jeff (42:28):
Yeah, some do.
Yeah, they're running it, at 200to one or a hundred to one,
something like that.
It gets expensive on thecommercial level, and they're
targeting certain windows ofopportunity, when they may run
into necrotic enteritis or COCCacidosis.
They also know that acidifyingchicken's gut the digestive
(42:50):
track of poultry.
Actually increases feedefficiency and keeps'em
healthier, right?
So they're less likely to getpathogenic bacteria, co
acidosis, things like that.
So it's a pretty goodpreventative.
Like I said, I have no ideawhere that post came from.
(43:11):
I've only seen it once, And Ihaven't tracked it back, but.
Where people are talking aboutapple cider vinegar will deplete
calcium from their bones, isanother one that I hear.
It's if your feed has thecorrect amount of calcium in it.
No, it's not gonna do that.
So people also don't understandthat even though you feed
(43:32):
dietary calcium to your birdsto, for the eggshells there's
always a transfer of calciumfrom the bloodstream to the
bone, and then from the bone tomake an egg.
So it is part of the normalroutine.
All the calcium for an egg doesnot come out of the digestive
tract.
Carey (44:00):
Okay.
I was just curious about thatbecause people have all, every
summer it's this huge thing andI'm like, mine mind drinking it
every day.
Yeah.
So yeah,
Jeff (44:18):
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Carey (44:19):
All right.
We appreciate you coming on withus today and talking about your
favorite subject.
We can get a whole lot
Jeff (44:27):
of poop.
We got stuck on mycotoxins, but,all right, that's, we had a
little bit of poop.
So the bottom line is if youdon't, if you don't see red in
the poop that looks blood red.
Blood red, okay?
Not this little, not okay.
If you don't see blood coloredred in the poop.
It's not cocc acidosis.
Okay?
(44:49):
And you can prove me wrong.
Take a manure sample, do a fecalfloat, count the eggs, count the
OO cyst in a gram of whateverpoop.
Okay?
I don't care if it's yours.
Your chickens, your quails, yourdogs, whatever.
It's pretty much universal.
So there is supposed to be for ahealthy poultry digestive tract,
(45:13):
I.
There should be between 40 and60 co cocc, acidosis, os, or
egg, if you will, in every gramof poultry poop, and it's
supposed to be there.
If I see numbers below 40, I'mreally worried.
(45:34):
That bird is not healthy at all.
Okay.
When you get above 60, you canstart to be a little bit
concerned.
Really?
You don't see blood in the poopuntil you get up around a
hundred.
Jennifer (45:47):
Are you saying, suggesting that a digestive
system is like an ecosystem andlike they all coexist in there?
Jeff (46:00):
Everything's an ecosystem.
From the world scale to, all theway down to the soil.
If you pulled up a gram of soiland you looked okay, there's
this many nematodes and thismany co acidosis and this many
bacteria and this many fungi.
Everything is a microbiome atits own level.
(46:24):
People check their own poop.
They're gonna be amazed.
There's co acidosis in there,and it's supposed to be there.
Jennifer (46:32):
It is all about balance.
Jeff (46:35):
It's all about balance.
Jennifer (46:37):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
Carey (46:43):
Yeah.
Sterile people, diet soonerain't we're supposed to eat a
balanced diet.
So if it works for people, wedon't, But if that's what people
should do, that's what birdseverything should do.
Jeff (46:53):
That makes sense and people should get out of the way
and quit making thingsimbalanced.
Okay?
They just need to, they need toroll with it, and they need to
check the numbers, right?
They need to pick up an old usedmicroscope somewhere that still
works.
They need to learn how to dotheir own fecal floats.
They need to quit having kneejerk reactions.
They need to quit overreacting.
(47:16):
Okay.
You do subtle changes to fixthings.
You don't go in with somethingthat ends in CID and kill
everything and start.
'cause every time you do that,you start over, right?
You just cleaned the chalkboardand you clean the slate.
We're starting over and thatactually drags down the immune
(47:40):
system of the bird.
Because immunity for everycreature is in the gut and how
well it functions.
Eh, the immunity of every livingcreature depends on its
digestive tract.
Jennifer (47:56):
Yep.
Jeff (47:58):
All right.
Jennifer (47:59):
All right.
Thank you.
Jeff (48:01):
We'll pick it up later.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
Jennifer (48:05):
Okay.
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