September 14, 2023 • 28 mins
Listen to the first part of my conversation with ESPN writer Katie Barnes about their new book, “Fair Play: How Sports Shape the Gender Debates.” The book comes out next week, so go ahead and get your pre-order in!!!
This is a phenomenal conversation about transgender athletes in sports, and how to re-center the political fights around their humanity. I know you will love it.
To get access to the full conversation, become a paying subscriber to Power Plays. Right now, annual subscriptions are 27% off!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everyone.
I am so excited to be joinedtoday by the phenomenal Katie
(00:41):
Barnes, who has a book, fairplay how sports shape the gender
debate, gender debates plural,which is out next Tuesday, and
I'm so excited.
Katie's one of my favoritepeople in the world, so I'm so
excited to be able to talk tothem about their book.
(01:01):
Hi, katie.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Of course, I'm just thrilled and so proud of you.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you, I'm proud of me too.
All right, this is a specialmidweek edition of the Power
Plays podcast, as you'veprobably noticed by now.
Now, if you're not a paidsubscriber to Power Plays and
(01:26):
you're listening to this on themain podcast feed, you're gonna
get to hear about half of myconversation with Katie, which I
promise you will be reallywonderful and full of great
stuff and give you great senseof the book.
Not trying to shortchange you,but if you are a paid subscriber
to Power Plays, you'll haveaccess to the extended version
(01:46):
of this interview on thesubscribers only feed, which I
think will nerd out a little bitmore in although the whole
thing is gonna be pretty nerdy,I'm not gonna lie but make sure,
if you're a paid subscriber toPower Plays, that you're
listening to the version thatsays subscriber pod in capital
(02:07):
letters on it.
And if you're not subscribed tothat RSS feed, check your email
and it'll be in there If you'reinterested in becoming a paid
member of Power Plays andlistening to this extended
conversation as well as gettingother exclusive perks.
We have just launched one ofour biggest sales ever 27% off
(02:27):
annual subscriptions forever,meaning you'll be locked into
the discounted price.
I rely on paid subscriptions tokeep this work going.
I've been running fullyindependently for almost four
years now and in order to keepthat going, I really need your
support.
So please check outpowerplaysnews slash.
(02:49):
Subscribe today and there'll bea link in the show notes.
Okay, enough of that.
I had to write all that down.
Make sure I remembered it, butwe're done with that.
On to the show Katie Gonna.
Start with a hard one here.
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh God, it probably is hard to think.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I originally wanted to write this book because I
felt like and I guess thecontext is important I signed
the contract to write the bookin August of 2020.
So Idaho had happened, but therest of it had not.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And so when you say Idaho, what can you remind
people?
Yes, remind people how thisgoes, yeah, yes so Not everyone
has read the book yet, and soit's refreshed.
That is fair.
Yeah, that is fair.
That's the whole point of it toget people to read the book.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, read the book, friends, you know what I'm
talking about.
Hp 500, which is the firstrestrictive law for transgender
athletes, was passed into law inIdaho, and it was signed into
law in March of 2020.
Other states had been kickingaround legislation.
They had filed similarlegislation after Idaho in this
(04:05):
legislative year of 2020, butnothing else had passed at that
time.
So when I say like Idaho hadhappened, that's what I mean.
Like in the fall of 2020, wehad one state that had passed
restrictive legislation ontransgender athletes, and now
we're up to 23.
(04:25):
So at the time, I really feltlike this was an undercover
issue that I thought was gonnabe something that people talked
about, and I had connectionswith transgender athletes.
I'd been writing abouttransgender athletes, both at
the amateur level, in terms ofhigh schoolers and youth sports,
(04:46):
but I also had written aboutprofessional athletes and I
really thought that I was goingto be writing a book that looked
at the issues in various statesat the high school level and
then, like we kind of expandedout to women's sports, but I
thought like in general, it wasgonna be anchored in some kind
(05:09):
of feel good stories I'm notgonna lie.
And then it became a news eventand I felt like the why kind of
changed.
I really felt like the book wasneeded, that there isn't
anything out there like this,that everybody is.
Whenever I go out and peopleask me what I do for a living
(05:32):
and I tell them, they then askme about this.
They desperately wantinformation and I was like, okay
, I should probably try toanswer some of those questions
and that is why I wrote thisbook.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You do something that you don't always do, which is
you put a little bit of yourselfin this book, quite literally
starting from the intro.
Knowing you, that had to be adifficult decision, or maybe I'm
wrong.
I might be wrong, but I knowyou try, and you're a reporter.
(06:09):
You're very good at reportingon other people and other
people's stories and do a goodjob of keeping yourself out of
it a lot.
So why did you start this bookwith your story?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I felt like, from my perspective as the writer of the
book the author, if you will.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That is the word for it.
Yes, yes, I am an author stillfeels weird.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I felt like, from that perspective, the reader was
entitled to know a little bitabout me, especially on this
topic.
I have found that there's somuch rhetoric.
Everybody has an opinion and iscoming from their particular
(07:00):
perspective, and oftentimesthose things can be obfuscated
by rhetoric in many respects andI felt like the best way to
this is so funny.
As a journalist, you don'treally don't do this right.
The best way to maintaincredibility is to be objective
in general, but I felt like onthis particular topic, in this
particular moment, the best wayto maintain credibility and to
(07:25):
have an impact in the way that Iwanted to have would be to be
as transparent as possible, andthat meant also talking about my
own background and sharingstories about myself, I think
also from a writer perspective.
I used that as a little bit of adevice and that, like for me, I
really set out to kind of usemy stories as a bit of an avatar
(07:48):
for the reader, so that, as Iwas reflecting on my own
experiences, that would be aninvitation for them to reflect
on their experiences, and doingso in a way that wasn't
necessarily disruptive and itwasn't preachy.
It was just kind of like asharing, and so I really tried
to inject that at points where Ifelt like it would be natural
(08:12):
for people who are reading thebook to go huh, how do I feel
about that, what are myexperiences with that, what do I
think about this?
And kind of invite them alongthat journey internally with
themselves as well.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I can say you were very successful at that.
You can also say that I loveyou even more seeing how tangled
your headphones are, becausethat's exactly what mine are, oh
incredible.
I know that you I am the samewhen I am traveling.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That is what mine look like, so yeah, I thought
about untangling them and then Iwas like no, it's too early for
that One is too early and I'mjust like whatever, lindsay,
like we're good enough friendsthat you could see my tangled
headphones.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I know, it just makes me feel better about myself.
So that's good, that's good.
No, but your story is that youare a non-binary and you grew up
playing women's sports,particularly women's basketball,
right, is that?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
That's true.
Yes, very true.
How did you?
One of the things and this hasalways impressed me about you
and the way you approach yourwork, because, while you bring
yourself to it, you also I don'twanna say you don't have a
problem with it, because thatmight not be true, but you are
(09:33):
willing to enable, to talk topeople and interview people who
have very different opinionsfrom you and perhaps might not
even validate your identity.
Period.
You talk with people in thisbook and interview people in
(09:58):
this book who are on theanti-trans side of things, and I
know you've done that andyou're reporting for ESPN as
well.
I should have said in thebeginning that Katie is, in
addition to an author, a writerfor ESPN.
That's probably importantcontext.
Once again, I'm great at theintroductions.
I'm killing it.
(10:19):
Look, we started this interviewat 8 am, so that's early for me
, so we're doing really great, Ithink.
How do you approach theseinterviews with people when you
know that they might not evenacknowledge that they?
Them pronouns exist, Like theymight, you know, just be, which
(10:43):
is so if I'm saying they but you, which is exactly the irony
there as well.
But how do you approachinterviews with people who are
fighting against the things thatyou are.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So that's a good question.
I think part of it is that Ireally truly fundamentally
believe that those interviewsare really important when it
comes to journalism and how Iapproach journalism.
On this topic.
For me, I really believe thatif an issue or a topic or an
(11:24):
idea is controversial which thisis then by definition, there
are gonna be multipleperspectives and I do think that
voice selection is reallyimportant.
You know I don't talk to justanybody, but, like Barbara E
Hart wrote the first bill inIdaho, so I'm gonna talk to her.
I wanna know why she made thechoice to do that, what was the
(11:47):
story behind that, how did thathappen?
Who is she?
Why does she care about this?
I think, seeking to answer thosequestions and presenting her
perspective in a way that isfair and is, I think, reflective
of the conversation that we had.
That's important from honestlyand it goes back to what I was
(12:07):
saying earlier from acredibility perspective Like,
the reality is that for manypeople who I hope find this book
, if there are voices, if weknow that this is controversial
and there are only voices fromone particular side that are
being presented, then the textloses credibility from a
(12:28):
journalistic perspective and italso loses credibility with an
audience and for me, I want toanswer the questions as
holistically as I possibly can,and that means including
perspectives from a wide rangeof people.
(12:48):
And on a personal level as ajournalist well, I guess I would
say on a personal level, justseparate from my journalistic
identity Is it hard sometimes tolisten to certain perspectives
because I am non-binary and I amtrans?
Yes, of course that is hard,but my job in that moment is
(13:10):
it's not an adversarialinterview, like I'm not trying
to change anybody's mind, and Ishould also say that when people
with whom I have more alignmentand the perspective that I do
share in the book like when itcomes to sharing having
conversations with those peoplesometimes they say things that I
(13:31):
don't necessarily agree with orI think are not entirely the
correct framing on a particularthing, and I don't go at them.
That's not adversarial either.
For me it's about holisticallyrepresenting perspective and
then an additional reporting,like examining all those
perspectives with similar levelsof veracity.
(13:52):
Like you don't get to say falsethings in my book, or if you do
say something that is false, Iwill correct you in the text,
but there isn't necessarily thisback and forth.
And overall as a reporter, Itend to not make it about me
generally, like, yes, mypronouns are public, my identity
is public, but I getmisgendered all the time.
(14:14):
It doesn't matter who I'minterviewing, it doesn't matter
the topic that I'm interviewingsomebody for, or if it's a
profile of an athlete, et cetera, et cetera.
I get misgendered all the timeand I often choose not to
correct them because I don'tknow how they're going to
respond to that and at the endof the day, it's not about me
(14:35):
and that could inject tension ina place where I don't want
there to be tension.
And so that is a choice that Ihave made for myself that I am
okay with in terms of how Iconduct my business
journalistically.
And of course, there's alwaysthe nice moment where, because
my pronouns are public and myidentity is public, that is
affirmed in an interview space.
(14:56):
But honestly, that's kind ofrare.
So I just know that that's justpart of the job and I have
figured out how to make thatwork for me.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Well, you do a very good job of, in this book,
straddling the line between thepersonal and the professional,
as well as fact versus fiction,because so much of this, so much
of this debate around transathletes and sports exists in
(15:31):
the hypothetical and in the fearmongering in the, in this other
fictional world really, and Ithink it's so important that
what you do is you ground thisconversation in facts, in
humanity, in real people, and ofcourse you dissect policy, of
(15:52):
course you do all those things,but it re-center.
It does a really good job, Ithink, re-centering the
conversation around actual, realhuman beings, which is where,
which is what this should all beabout.
There are four athletes thatyou really hone in on MacBags,
the wrestler in Texas, andreaYearwood and Terry Miller, the
(16:16):
two Connecticut runners, andLeah Thomas, the swimmer.
All four of those are transathletes who made quite huge
waves and headlines, and I foundit very I covered all of those
stories to some extent whilethey were happening and yet
(16:39):
found it really effective torevisit them with the, with the
temperature turned down, likeyou do in your book, and just
like looking back at thosestories holistically as opposed
to just living by the, beat bybeat, headlines, result by
result, headlines that we're soheated.
What do you hope people get fromkind of the revisiting of those
(16:59):
stories?
Is there probably four peoplethat people who read this book
will be tangentially familiarwith, at least space?
Maybe from right wing attacks,maybe because they followed it
personally?
But what do you, what do youhope you get that people get
from revisiting those storiesand is there anything that you
think people got the you thinkmaybe correct the record about
(17:24):
these individuals?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Well, I think like honestly, that is what I hope
people get is so much of thoseparticular stories that are that
are still talked about publiclyis they've kind of, you know,
been vaporized into the publicthere and so I'm very good word.
What I mean?
It's just like this, likeethereal mist of like that bags
(17:50):
and I'm drinking your wood andthe atomic, like they are not
people, they are clouds.
You know, I'm just like, okay,well, first of all, let's remind
folks that they are people andthey have stories and they have
lives and you know, I think thatwas really important and also
not necessary for me.
It's like it's not necessarilycorrecting the narrative per se,
(18:13):
but it is about, you know, recentering those stories in a
fact based way and, in some ways, cutting through narrative and
saying, like this is actuallywho Mac begs, it is actually
what he went through, this iswho Andrea, your what is and
what she went through.
(18:33):
And this is Leah Thomas andlike, especially, I think, with
Leah, where so little of hervoice is out there.
You know, people talk a lotabout Leah and we hear very
little from her, and some ofthat, I believe, is by design.
I do not envy being in herposition in any way, shape or
form, and you did mention thebook that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
You know that she, at the beginning of all this, had
maybe asked people not to Talkabout her, which I had known,
and so maybe she asked, likeallied organizations, to not
mention was that?
Do you believe that was herattempt to quiet the noise?
And then maybe that was amisguided attempt, because there
(19:19):
was no such thing is doing that, I well, I think at the time.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I think it's fair to say that no one whether we're
talking about you know theswimming and diving program at
Penn Penn as an institution.
Leah Thomas herself, her familylike I don't think anybody was
prepared for not just theinitial Like explosion of
coverage, but also like how longof a tail it has had.
(19:48):
Like I'm somebody who has LeahThomas Google alerts because
that's my job and there is not aday that goes by that I don't
get something new off of thosealerts and she has not been in a
pool since March of 2022.
So, like it's an ongoing thing,which I think is partly why we
haven't heard from her aftershe's, you know, after she's
(20:10):
completed her swimming career isother than this book, really,
and the interview I did with herfor ESPN, and it's because
anytime she speaks, it becomesincredibly political immediately
and she's a very reservedperson.
There's, you know, for all thecaricatures that are out there
about her, like she's veryreserved, and so I think at the
(20:33):
time, you know when this was allhappening, like you know, I
don't want to speak for her, butI believe that like she mostly
just wanted to stop and I thinkthat's ultimately probably what
she wants now.
Is she prefer people not talkabout her, and yet here, here we
all are and it is something Ithink about a lot in terms of
(20:58):
the responsibility of covering astory and also, you know, the
damage and the harm thatpotentially can come from that.
It's a tough balance.
One of the things that made mereally, really sad.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You know you said you maybe wanted this to be.
You know, started a long timeago with this.
Babies have some upliftingstories and there is so much
inspiration to gain from lookingat the stories of these
athletes and that is a part ofit.
But it seems like most of themdon't Play or compete in sports
(21:33):
anymore like they're they'redone, and that makes me really,
really sad and I mean, I knowpart of it is like a lot of
people go to college and dodifferent things.
Like a lot of people stopsports when they get to college
and I didn't know how much of itwas that.
You know their interest changeversus Did the fear mongers win?
(21:56):
Did the right wing win?
Did this, did they do it?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Well, I would say so, I think, like with Mac and this
sort of developed after theconclusion of, like my writing.
But he is doing a lot of MMAtraining, he is competing, he's
very happy.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Oh good, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So in particular he's doing like jiu-jitsu, I think,
in the case of you know youngathlete who's a new voice in the
book, with like River, who's atransgender boy in Kansas, you
know he was playing a genderedsport and then decided to not
play a gendered sport anymoremeaning softball is the sport in
(22:36):
question and, you know, was akid and is now a teenager, about
to graduate from high schooland is doing other stuff.
You know, I think sometimes someof it is that simple, Right,
and also some of it is morecomplicated.
You know Leah Thomas did notwant to finish her career at the
NCAA championships.
(22:57):
Doesn't mean that she thoughtshe would go to the Olympics,
but it's not uncommon forcollegiate swimmers to swim at
the closest Olympic trials andthen retire Like that is a thing
that happens and that's howLeah's brother finished his
career was swimming at theOlympic trials and so she also
wanted to do that and did notget the opportunity to and was
(23:19):
effectively banned from hersport pretty soon after the
conclusion of the collegiateseason.
And that for me was probablyone of the biggest gut punches
in the book is the scene whereshe finds out that this has
happened.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, yeah, she's on vacation, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It was, that one was tough.
And so I think, to varyingdegrees, like with Andrea, would
she want to run or do somethingcompetitively, or even do
something from a clubperspective in a sport, you know
maybe, but she has chosen notto and she's had an incredibly
successful collegiate career,like if you have known Andrea
(24:04):
since she was 14 years old andshe's about to be a senior in
college and like I look at thethings she's doing and I
remember she told me that shewanted to be a UN translator
when she was 14 and she speakslike 8,000 languages now.
So I'm like she very well couldbe, you know, like just doing
it.
I'm so proud of her, and so Ithink it's a mixed bag.
(24:29):
And also, on top of that, withthe specific like, in addition
to the specific athletes that Italk about in the book, there
are a number of athletes whosevoices are not included in the
book for various reasons, whoare still trying to play or who
have been unable to continue toplay because of legislative
(24:51):
action taken in their states,like the reality is that 23
states have some sort ofrestrictive policy or law in the
books and with that comes thenatural effect that there are a
number of transgender childrenwho are not able to play school
sports in a manner that'sconsistent with their gender
identity, and so, from thatperspective, of course that's
(25:13):
gonna push trans kids out ofsports.
There's just no way around that, and that's where we are right
now, and that's a hard thing tosit with.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It's so hard because, you know, I think a lot about
the Center for American ProgressReport that put a lot of these
studies together a few years agoon trans participation in
sports and the youth level, andit was just the thing that was
so clear from that report wasthat when trans people, even if
they're not athletes, when theygo to schools and are in states
(25:46):
that have trans inclusivepolicies, they are more likely
to stay in school, they are morelikely to graduate, they are
more likely to not be depressedor suicidal and they're more
likely to, you know, thrive.
And, on the other hand, even ifthey don't want to participate
(26:09):
in sports, just being in thatenvironment makes them so much
more susceptible to dropping outto, you know, engaging in
self-harm and behaviors.
And I always just come back tothat.
It's like on the youth level,it's like, okay, the worst thing
that could happen to a cis kidif a trans kid is involved in
(26:31):
sports is that they lose to atrans kid, right, but, like you,
sports are supposed to teachyou how to lose anyways, right?
Whereas, like, the worst thingthat can happen to trans you
know what happens to trans kidswhen they're excluded from
sports is so extremely bad Like.
These are not apples to applessituations or comparisons and
(26:52):
should be a no brainer.
We're gonna keep talking aboutthis, as well as got some
questions about testosterone.
We're gonna talk about thesefairness of women in sports acts
and policies that we're seeingpop it up in the National
Women's Soccer League, thePremier Hockey Federation, which
(27:14):
RIP, and a few others.
So if you're a paid subscriber,you will keep hearing that
conversation and if you are not,please go by Katie's book
immediately.
I hope I've conveyed in thisfirst part what a phenomenal job
they did in tackling thissubject and I promise you, if
(27:39):
you like power plays, if youlike this stuff we do, if you
listen to this podcast, you willlove this book.
There is a I guarantee you aone to one correlation.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
There the Venn diagram is a circle.
I'm just gonna cosine that the.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Venn diagram is a circle.
It's like half HMG difference.
(28:17):
Yeah, and so again, thank you.
Hello everyone.
I am so excited to be joinedtoday by the phenomenal Katie
(00:41):
Barnes, who has a book, fairplay how sports shape the gender
debate, gender debates plural,which is out next Tuesday, and
I'm so excited.
Katie's one of my favoritepeople in the world, so I'm so
excited to be able to talk tothem about their book.
(01:01):
Hi, katie.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Of course, I'm just thrilled and so proud of you.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you, I'm proud of me too.
All right, this is a specialmidweek edition of the Power
Plays podcast, as you'veprobably noticed by now.
Now, if you're not a paidsubscriber to Power Plays and
(01:26):
you're listening to this on themain podcast feed, you're gonna
get to hear about half of myconversation with Katie, which I
promise you will be reallywonderful and full of great
stuff and give you great senseof the book.
Not trying to shortchange you,but if you are a paid subscriber
to Power Plays, you'll haveaccess to the extended version
(01:46):
of this interview on thesubscribers only feed, which I
think will nerd out a little bitmore in although the whole
thing is gonna be pretty nerdy,I'm not gonna lie but make sure,
if you're a paid subscriber toPower Plays, that you're
listening to the version thatsays subscriber pod in capital
(02:07):
letters on it.
And if you're not subscribed tothat RSS feed, check your email
and it'll be in there If you'reinterested in becoming a paid
member of Power Plays andlistening to this extended
conversation as well as gettingother exclusive perks.
We have just launched one ofour biggest sales ever 27% off
(02:27):
annual subscriptions forever,meaning you'll be locked into
the discounted price.
I rely on paid subscriptions tokeep this work going.
I've been running fullyindependently for almost four
years now and in order to keepthat going, I really need your
support.
So please check outpowerplaysnews slash.
(02:49):
Subscribe today and there'll bea link in the show notes.
Okay, enough of that.
I had to write all that down.
Make sure I remembered it, butwe're done with that.
On to the show Katie Gonna.
Start with a hard one here.
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh God, it probably is hard to think.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I originally wanted to write this book because I
felt like and I guess thecontext is important I signed
the contract to write the bookin August of 2020.
So Idaho had happened, but therest of it had not.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And so when you say Idaho, what can you remind
people?
Yes, remind people how thisgoes, yeah, yes so Not everyone
has read the book yet, and soit's refreshed.
That is fair.
Yeah, that is fair.
That's the whole point of it toget people to read the book.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, read the book, friends, you know what I'm
talking about.
Hp 500, which is the firstrestrictive law for transgender
athletes, was passed into law inIdaho, and it was signed into
law in March of 2020.
Other states had been kickingaround legislation.
They had filed similarlegislation after Idaho in this
(04:05):
legislative year of 2020, butnothing else had passed at that
time.
So when I say like Idaho hadhappened, that's what I mean.
Like in the fall of 2020, wehad one state that had passed
restrictive legislation ontransgender athletes, and now
we're up to 23.
(04:25):
So at the time, I really feltlike this was an undercover
issue that I thought was gonnabe something that people talked
about, and I had connectionswith transgender athletes.
I'd been writing abouttransgender athletes, both at
the amateur level, in terms ofhigh schoolers and youth sports,
(04:46):
but I also had written aboutprofessional athletes and I
really thought that I was goingto be writing a book that looked
at the issues in various statesat the high school level and
then, like we kind of expandedout to women's sports, but I
thought like in general, it wasgonna be anchored in some kind
(05:09):
of feel good stories I'm notgonna lie.
And then it became a news eventand I felt like the why kind of
changed.
I really felt like the book wasneeded, that there isn't
anything out there like this,that everybody is.
Whenever I go out and peopleask me what I do for a living
(05:32):
and I tell them, they then askme about this.
They desperately wantinformation and I was like, okay
, I should probably try toanswer some of those questions
and that is why I wrote thisbook.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You do something that you don't always do, which is
you put a little bit of yourselfin this book, quite literally
starting from the intro.
Knowing you, that had to be adifficult decision, or maybe I'm
wrong.
I might be wrong, but I knowyou try, and you're a reporter.
(06:09):
You're very good at reportingon other people and other
people's stories and do a goodjob of keeping yourself out of
it a lot.
So why did you start this bookwith your story?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I felt like, from my perspective as the writer of the
book the author, if you will.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That is the word for it.
Yes, yes, I am an author stillfeels weird.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I felt like, from that perspective, the reader was
entitled to know a little bitabout me, especially on this
topic.
I have found that there's somuch rhetoric.
Everybody has an opinion and iscoming from their particular
(07:00):
perspective, and oftentimesthose things can be obfuscated
by rhetoric in many respects andI felt like the best way to
this is so funny.
As a journalist, you don'treally don't do this right.
The best way to maintaincredibility is to be objective
in general, but I felt like onthis particular topic, in this
particular moment, the best wayto maintain credibility and to
(07:25):
have an impact in the way that Iwanted to have would be to be
as transparent as possible, andthat meant also talking about my
own background and sharingstories about myself, I think
also from a writer perspective.
I used that as a little bit of adevice and that, like for me, I
really set out to kind of usemy stories as a bit of an avatar
(07:48):
for the reader, so that, as Iwas reflecting on my own
experiences, that would be aninvitation for them to reflect
on their experiences, and doingso in a way that wasn't
necessarily disruptive and itwasn't preachy.
It was just kind of like asharing, and so I really tried
to inject that at points where Ifelt like it would be natural
(08:12):
for people who are reading thebook to go huh, how do I feel
about that, what are myexperiences with that, what do I
think about this?
And kind of invite them alongthat journey internally with
themselves as well.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I can say you were very successful at that.
You can also say that I loveyou even more seeing how tangled
your headphones are, becausethat's exactly what mine are, oh
incredible.
I know that you I am the samewhen I am traveling.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That is what mine look like, so yeah, I thought
about untangling them and then Iwas like no, it's too early for
that One is too early and I'mjust like whatever, lindsay,
like we're good enough friendsthat you could see my tangled
headphones.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I know, it just makes me feel better about myself.
So that's good, that's good.
No, but your story is that youare a non-binary and you grew up
playing women's sports,particularly women's basketball,
right, is that?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
That's true.
Yes, very true.
How did you?
One of the things and this hasalways impressed me about you
and the way you approach yourwork, because, while you bring
yourself to it, you also I don'twanna say you don't have a
problem with it, because thatmight not be true, but you are
(09:33):
willing to enable, to talk topeople and interview people who
have very different opinionsfrom you and perhaps might not
even validate your identity.
Period.
You talk with people in thisbook and interview people in
(09:58):
this book who are on theanti-trans side of things, and I
know you've done that andyou're reporting for ESPN as
well.
I should have said in thebeginning that Katie is, in
addition to an author, a writerfor ESPN.
That's probably importantcontext.
Once again, I'm great at theintroductions.
I'm killing it.
(10:19):
Look, we started this interviewat 8 am, so that's early for me
, so we're doing really great, Ithink.
How do you approach theseinterviews with people when you
know that they might not evenacknowledge that they?
Them pronouns exist, Like theymight, you know, just be, which
(10:43):
is so if I'm saying they but you, which is exactly the irony
there as well.
But how do you approachinterviews with people who are
fighting against the things thatyou are.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So that's a good question.
I think part of it is that Ireally truly fundamentally
believe that those interviewsare really important when it
comes to journalism and how Iapproach journalism.
On this topic.
For me, I really believe thatif an issue or a topic or an
(11:24):
idea is controversial which thisis then by definition, there
are gonna be multipleperspectives and I do think that
voice selection is reallyimportant.
You know I don't talk to justanybody, but, like Barbara E
Hart wrote the first bill inIdaho, so I'm gonna talk to her.
I wanna know why she made thechoice to do that, what was the
(11:47):
story behind that, how did thathappen?
Who is she?
Why does she care about this?
I think, seeking to answer thosequestions and presenting her
perspective in a way that isfair and is, I think, reflective
of the conversation that we had.
That's important from honestlyand it goes back to what I was
(12:07):
saying earlier from acredibility perspective Like,
the reality is that for manypeople who I hope find this book
, if there are voices, if weknow that this is controversial
and there are only voices fromone particular side that are
being presented, then the textloses credibility from a
(12:28):
journalistic perspective and italso loses credibility with an
audience and for me, I want toanswer the questions as
holistically as I possibly can,and that means including
perspectives from a wide rangeof people.
(12:48):
And on a personal level as ajournalist well, I guess I would
say on a personal level, justseparate from my journalistic
identity Is it hard sometimes tolisten to certain perspectives
because I am non-binary and I amtrans?
Yes, of course that is hard,but my job in that moment is
(13:10):
it's not an adversarialinterview, like I'm not trying
to change anybody's mind, and Ishould also say that when people
with whom I have more alignmentand the perspective that I do
share in the book like when itcomes to sharing having
conversations with those peoplesometimes they say things that I
(13:31):
don't necessarily agree with orI think are not entirely the
correct framing on a particularthing, and I don't go at them.
That's not adversarial either.
For me it's about holisticallyrepresenting perspective and
then an additional reporting,like examining all those
perspectives with similar levelsof veracity.
(13:52):
Like you don't get to say falsethings in my book, or if you do
say something that is false, Iwill correct you in the text,
but there isn't necessarily thisback and forth.
And overall as a reporter, Itend to not make it about me
generally, like, yes, mypronouns are public, my identity
is public, but I getmisgendered all the time.
(14:14):
It doesn't matter who I'minterviewing, it doesn't matter
the topic that I'm interviewingsomebody for, or if it's a
profile of an athlete, et cetera, et cetera.
I get misgendered all the timeand I often choose not to
correct them because I don'tknow how they're going to
respond to that and at the endof the day, it's not about me
(14:35):
and that could inject tension ina place where I don't want
there to be tension.
And so that is a choice that Ihave made for myself that I am
okay with in terms of how Iconduct my business
journalistically.
And of course, there's alwaysthe nice moment where, because
my pronouns are public and myidentity is public, that is
affirmed in an interview space.
(14:56):
But honestly, that's kind ofrare.
So I just know that that's justpart of the job and I have
figured out how to make thatwork for me.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Well, you do a very good job of, in this book,
straddling the line between thepersonal and the professional,
as well as fact versus fiction,because so much of this, so much
of this debate around transathletes and sports exists in
(15:31):
the hypothetical and in the fearmongering in the, in this other
fictional world really, and Ithink it's so important that
what you do is you ground thisconversation in facts, in
humanity, in real people, and ofcourse you dissect policy, of
(15:52):
course you do all those things,but it re-center.
It does a really good job, Ithink, re-centering the
conversation around actual, realhuman beings, which is where,
which is what this should all beabout.
There are four athletes thatyou really hone in on MacBags,
the wrestler in Texas, andreaYearwood and Terry Miller, the
(16:16):
two Connecticut runners, andLeah Thomas, the swimmer.
All four of those are transathletes who made quite huge
waves and headlines, and I foundit very I covered all of those
stories to some extent whilethey were happening and yet
(16:39):
found it really effective torevisit them with the, with the
temperature turned down, likeyou do in your book, and just
like looking back at thosestories holistically as opposed
to just living by the, beat bybeat, headlines, result by
result, headlines that we're soheated.
What do you hope people get fromkind of the revisiting of those
(16:59):
stories?
Is there probably four peoplethat people who read this book
will be tangentially familiarwith, at least space?
Maybe from right wing attacks,maybe because they followed it
personally?
But what do you, what do youhope you get that people get
from revisiting those storiesand is there anything that you
think people got the you thinkmaybe correct the record about
(17:24):
these individuals?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Well, I think like honestly, that is what I hope
people get is so much of thoseparticular stories that are that
are still talked about publiclyis they've kind of, you know,
been vaporized into the publicthere and so I'm very good word.
What I mean?
It's just like this, likeethereal mist of like that bags
(17:50):
and I'm drinking your wood andthe atomic, like they are not
people, they are clouds.
You know, I'm just like, okay,well, first of all, let's remind
folks that they are people andthey have stories and they have
lives and you know, I think thatwas really important and also
not necessary for me.
It's like it's not necessarilycorrecting the narrative per se,
(18:13):
but it is about, you know, recentering those stories in a
fact based way and, in some ways, cutting through narrative and
saying, like this is actuallywho Mac begs, it is actually
what he went through, this iswho Andrea, your what is and
what she went through.
(18:33):
And this is Leah Thomas andlike, especially, I think, with
Leah, where so little of hervoice is out there.
You know, people talk a lotabout Leah and we hear very
little from her, and some ofthat, I believe, is by design.
I do not envy being in herposition in any way, shape or
form, and you did mention thebook that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
You know that she, at the beginning of all this, had
maybe asked people not to Talkabout her, which I had known,
and so maybe she asked, likeallied organizations, to not
mention was that?
Do you believe that was herattempt to quiet the noise?
And then maybe that was amisguided attempt, because there
(19:19):
was no such thing is doing that, I well, I think at the time.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I think it's fair to say that no one whether we're
talking about you know theswimming and diving program at
Penn Penn as an institution.
Leah Thomas herself, her familylike I don't think anybody was
prepared for not just theinitial Like explosion of
coverage, but also like how longof a tail it has had.
(19:48):
Like I'm somebody who has LeahThomas Google alerts because
that's my job and there is not aday that goes by that I don't
get something new off of thosealerts and she has not been in a
pool since March of 2022.
So, like it's an ongoing thing,which I think is partly why we
haven't heard from her aftershe's, you know, after she's
(20:10):
completed her swimming career isother than this book, really,
and the interview I did with herfor ESPN, and it's because
anytime she speaks, it becomesincredibly political immediately
and she's a very reservedperson.
There's, you know, for all thecaricatures that are out there
about her, like she's veryreserved, and so I think at the
(20:33):
time, you know when this was allhappening, like you know, I
don't want to speak for her, butI believe that like she mostly
just wanted to stop and I thinkthat's ultimately probably what
she wants now.
Is she prefer people not talkabout her, and yet here, here we
all are and it is something Ithink about a lot in terms of
(20:58):
the responsibility of covering astory and also, you know, the
damage and the harm thatpotentially can come from that.
It's a tough balance.
One of the things that made mereally, really sad.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You know you said you maybe wanted this to be.
You know, started a long timeago with this.
Babies have some upliftingstories and there is so much
inspiration to gain from lookingat the stories of these
athletes and that is a part ofit.
But it seems like most of themdon't Play or compete in sports
(21:33):
anymore like they're they'redone, and that makes me really,
really sad and I mean, I knowpart of it is like a lot of
people go to college and dodifferent things.
Like a lot of people stopsports when they get to college
and I didn't know how much of itwas that.
You know their interest changeversus Did the fear mongers win?
(21:56):
Did the right wing win?
Did this, did they do it?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Well, I would say so, I think, like with Mac and this
sort of developed after theconclusion of, like my writing.
But he is doing a lot of MMAtraining, he is competing, he's
very happy.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Oh good, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So in particular he's doing like jiu-jitsu, I think,
in the case of you know youngathlete who's a new voice in the
book, with like River, who's atransgender boy in Kansas, you
know he was playing a genderedsport and then decided to not
play a gendered sport anymoremeaning softball is the sport in
(22:36):
question and, you know, was akid and is now a teenager, about
to graduate from high schooland is doing other stuff.
You know, I think sometimes someof it is that simple, Right,
and also some of it is morecomplicated.
You know Leah Thomas did notwant to finish her career at the
NCAA championships.
(22:57):
Doesn't mean that she thoughtshe would go to the Olympics,
but it's not uncommon forcollegiate swimmers to swim at
the closest Olympic trials andthen retire Like that is a thing
that happens and that's howLeah's brother finished his
career was swimming at theOlympic trials and so she also
wanted to do that and did notget the opportunity to and was
(23:19):
effectively banned from hersport pretty soon after the
conclusion of the collegiateseason.
And that for me was probablyone of the biggest gut punches
in the book is the scene whereshe finds out that this has
happened.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, yeah, she's on vacation, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It was, that one was tough.
And so I think, to varyingdegrees, like with Andrea, would
she want to run or do somethingcompetitively, or even do
something from a clubperspective in a sport, you know
maybe, but she has chosen notto and she's had an incredibly
successful collegiate career,like if you have known Andrea
(24:04):
since she was 14 years old andshe's about to be a senior in
college and like I look at thethings she's doing and I
remember she told me that shewanted to be a UN translator
when she was 14 and she speakslike 8,000 languages now.
So I'm like she very well couldbe, you know, like just doing
it.
I'm so proud of her, and so Ithink it's a mixed bag.
(24:29):
And also, on top of that, withthe specific like, in addition
to the specific athletes that Italk about in the book, there
are a number of athletes whosevoices are not included in the
book for various reasons, whoare still trying to play or who
have been unable to continue toplay because of legislative
(24:51):
action taken in their states,like the reality is that 23
states have some sort ofrestrictive policy or law in the
books and with that comes thenatural effect that there are a
number of transgender childrenwho are not able to play school
sports in a manner that'sconsistent with their gender
identity, and so, from thatperspective, of course that's
(25:13):
gonna push trans kids out ofsports.
There's just no way around that, and that's where we are right
now, and that's a hard thing tosit with.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It's so hard because, you know, I think a lot about
the Center for American ProgressReport that put a lot of these
studies together a few years agoon trans participation in
sports and the youth level, andit was just the thing that was
so clear from that report wasthat when trans people, even if
they're not athletes, when theygo to schools and are in states
(25:46):
that have trans inclusivepolicies, they are more likely
to stay in school, they are morelikely to graduate, they are
more likely to not be depressedor suicidal and they're more
likely to, you know, thrive.
And, on the other hand, even ifthey don't want to participate
(26:09):
in sports, just being in thatenvironment makes them so much
more susceptible to dropping outto, you know, engaging in
self-harm and behaviors.
And I always just come back tothat.
It's like on the youth level,it's like, okay, the worst thing
that could happen to a cis kidif a trans kid is involved in
(26:31):
sports is that they lose to atrans kid, right, but, like you,
sports are supposed to teachyou how to lose anyways, right?
Whereas, like, the worst thingthat can happen to trans you
know what happens to trans kidswhen they're excluded from
sports is so extremely bad Like.
These are not apples to applessituations or comparisons and
(26:52):
should be a no brainer.
We're gonna keep talking aboutthis, as well as got some
questions about testosterone.
We're gonna talk about thesefairness of women in sports acts
and policies that we're seeingpop it up in the National
Women's Soccer League, thePremier Hockey Federation, which
(27:14):
RIP, and a few others.
So if you're a paid subscriber,you will keep hearing that
conversation and if you are not,please go by Katie's book
immediately.
I hope I've conveyed in thisfirst part what a phenomenal job
they did in tackling thissubject and I promise you, if
(27:39):
you like power plays, if youlike this stuff we do, if you
listen to this podcast, you willlove this book.
There is a I guarantee you aone to one correlation.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
There the Venn diagram is a circle.
I'm just gonna cosine that the.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Venn diagram is a circle.
It's like half HMG difference.
(28:17):
Yeah, and so again, thank you.
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