March 28, 2024 • 34 mins
In this episode, Matisse chats with Brands Over Brews host and marketing extraordinaire Pat Cooper about all things digital marketing strategy.
About Pat Cooper
Pat Cooper is a seasoned Digital Marketing Strategist with nearly a decade of experience helping brands redefine their marketing strategy to lower customer acquisition costs and accelerate revenue. He has worked alongside CMOs and CEOs on startup, in-house, and agency teams, generating over $15 million in revenue. Pat is also the host of Brands Over Brews, a weekly podcast that dives deep into the minds of marketing and business leaders shaping the industry's future.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (00:02):
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of PR & Lattes, the podcastwhere you can fill up your cup
on everything PR andcommunications. I'm your host
Matisse Hamel-Nelis. And I am sothrilled to have you join me for
a brand new episode. Before weget started, make sure you
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(00:23):
drops. You can also subscribe toour newsletter by visiting our
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podcast episodes, plus ouramazing blogs with new ones
being uploaded every Mondaymorning. And of course, make
sure you're following us onsocials by following us on
Instagram at @PRAndLattes and onLinkedIn PR & Lattes. On today's
(00:46):
episode, I'm chatting with PatCooper, a seasoned digital
marketing strategist. Withnearly a decade of experience
helping brands redefine theirmarketing strategy to lower
customer acquisition costs andaccelerate revenue. He has
worked alongside CMOs and CEOson startups in house and agency
teams, and has generated over$15 million in revenue. Pat is
(01:08):
also the host of brands overbrews a weekly podcast that
dives into the deep minds ofmarketing and business leaders
who are shaping the future ofthe industry. I'm so excited to
chat with Pat about all thingsdigital marketing. So grab your
latte, sit back and enjoy.
I am so excited for today'sepisode, Pat, welcome to PR and
(01:29):
lattes, how are you doing? Howis life?
Pat Cooper (01:32):
I'm doing well. It's sunny over here in Tampa,
Florida. So life is great asalways amazing.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (01:38):
It's sunny here. It's weird for a March day
in Toronto. But I'm not gonnacomplain. It's great. It's
great. So let's dive into it.
Today we're going to be talkingabout marketing and all that fun
jazz. But before we get started,can you tell me a little bit
about your own journey inmarketing?
Pat Cooper (01:58):
Yeah, so I had kind of a untypical journey into
marketing. I started out as atheater major and a college drop
out and all that stuff. I founda really cool gig writing
content online. And I didn'tthink it was real because I
didn't think you could writecontent online and make money
(02:18):
off of that. So I thought it wasa scam ended up not being a scam
ended up turning into a reallycool gig writing content for
agencies, which I did for a fewyears, worked in the startup
space, became a product managerfor a cybersecurity publication,
worked, returned back to agencylife managing Fortune 5000
(02:40):
companies, which was, you know,a really cool experience. And
then I ended up in house workingfor a really cool tech company.
So it's been a little bit allover the place. But it's been a
really cool creative processthroughout my career.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (02:56):
Amazing.
And you've had some significantachievements in your career. Can
you pinpoint a strategy orcampaign that really stands out
for you in your that you'veexperienced that was really
transformative for the brandthat you worked for, but also
for yourself?
Pat Cooper (03:10):
Yeah, so some of the strategies that I really love
are local strategies. I knowthat a lot of marketers they
work with global brands withhuge budgets. But I think some
of the more fun campaigns comefrom when you can have a local
impact, even with a small adbudget, being able to you know,
churn leads for a business andsee a small business grow and
(03:32):
grow and bring more people ontotheir team and kind of fuel that
business growth. It can have areal impact and it's had an
impact for my career. Of course,I do a lot of consulting and
freelance work on the side. Soworking with local, you know,
some like blue collar companieshas been really cool because
when you work with a lot oflocal clients that typically
(03:54):
brings out new leads for yourbusiness and referrals and kind
of turns your own business whichis great, but you know, having a
local impact, it's it's reallygreat. It's something that you
know, you can go to sleep with,you know, feeling well rested
that you did good for otherpeople.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (04:09):
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
Particularly the focus on localyou know, there's that whole
push of shop local and staylocal and all that fun jazz and
helping those small businessesgrow and thrive with the
strategy I think is soimperative. So I love that
that's your favorite like yourfavorite thing. Right in the
heart right in the heart.
Pat Cooper (04:30):
Yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (04:31):
So similar to me, you host a podcast, which
I absolutely love the nameBrands Over Brews. Fantastic. So
you yourself have had theopportunity to dive into the
minds of industry leaders, whichyou know, this is one of my
favourite things about hosting apodcast is I get to learn from
people I have looked up to whoknow things that I have always
(04:52):
wanted to learn about and thatsort of thing, which is also why
you're on the podcast today. Sowhat do you think is one insight
or trend that while you've beendoing your podcast has really
resonated or was uncovered,that's changed your way of
working.
Pat Cooper (05:07):
Yeah, so something I've picked up from a lot of my
guests when they speak to theirsuccess in their career, and
what they do for marketing forother brands, is really tapping
into authenticity and the humanapproach. And I think that
that's really impacted themarketing work I do, how I work
with my own clients on aconsulting basis, you know,
(05:28):
really break things down to alevel where they understand
things and bring in morehumanity to marketing, doing
that local, you know, smallbusiness impact has been super
important for my work. But youknow, everyone's kind of digging
into the authenticity thesedays, doing things a bit more
organically doing things off thecuff, not having things like
super, super clean, I think alot of that is rolled off from
(05:51):
the pandemic, because we haven'tbeen able to do things as clean
as you know, we did before. So Ithink it's been a lot of
pivoting. And when you seebrands pivot and sometimes make
mistakes, and maybe do thingsmore geared towards like
guerilla marketing, you do seethat authenticity and that human
approach to the brand and topeople's marketing. And I think
that we need more brands to tapinto that, you know, human
(06:13):
element for the consumer.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (06:16):
I definitely agree there. Do you
find ever that some brands aretrying to be authentic without
being authentic? And seeing ifthat sort of flies?
Pat Cooper (06:26):
Yeah, you know, I just had a guest on yesterday
where we talked about localimpact, and, you know, economic
impact and kind of likegreenwashing and how a lot of
brands can often say they'redoing something, but they're not
actually doing something. Soyeah, I mean, I've definitely
come across brands that, youknow, when they don't have
(06:50):
necessarily as much impact asthey want to be, or they try to
tap into something that theyaren't, you know, we've we've, I
think, seen that quite a bit.
And it's unfortunate, you know,I think when you need when you
want to tap into authenticity asa brand, you're gonna have to do
a lot of self reflecting to kindof figure out who is your brand?
What kind of impact do you wantto make? on a human level? Like,
(07:11):
who are you like, who you'retrying to reach who you're
trying to be? And, you know,using that to elevate your
marketing, because obviously,you don't want to have a very,
you know, synthetic, authenticsort of look and feel, because
then it just seems like you'retrying to copy other people or,
you know, when consumers getthat experience, they're like,
Yeah, I didn't really like that.
(07:33):
I don't think I'm gonna shopwith them again. So you have to
be very, very mindful about whatyou're actually putting out
there.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:38):
Yeah. And then it leads into if that if
you are creating that syntheticauthenticity, then you're
leading to a PR situation.
Pat Cooper (07:46):
Oh, my goodness, yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:49):
We're trying to manage that part of
it. And it's just a bit of amess. The reason I ask is that,
particularly with the DEIinitiatives, at least, you know,
that are getting pushed out andpeople not necessarily jumping
on a bandwagon. But you know,saying we we are DEI-focus and
DEI-centric or diversity, equityand inclusion centric, but then
(08:11):
not having policies or item oraspects within their own inner
workings that actually speak tothat. But saying like, yes, we
are this yes, we are that whenreally they're not right. So
that's why I was curious aboutthe synthetic authenticity, if
that was something that you werenoticing a bit more, or if it's
more leaning towards being trulyauthentic, and maybe opening up
(08:33):
or acknowledging gaps thatpeople may have organizations
may have, and kind of owning upto that and be like, This is how
we're working on things.
Pat Cooper (08:43):
Yeah, no, I mean, two things there. One, you know,
it's really disappointing withDEI, because you'll see a lot
more companies are laying offtheir DEI departments or their
head of DEI even, you know,Google's laying off, you know,
DEI positions and getting rid oflike, you know, AI vetting
teams, which is very concerning.
But it's It's so disappointingto, you know, see brands do
(09:06):
that, where they, they hop onthe bandwagon, say we need DEI
and then you know, a few yearslater, they're like, alright, we
did it, we can get rid of them.
It's super disappointing. And interms of authenticity, yeah, I
do see a lot more brands tappinginto it. But I also see a lot of
brands like not sure what to dowith it similar with DEI they're
like, well, we hired the person.
So we're done. Right?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (09:29):
Yeah, we've checked that box. We're good.
Yes. All right. So moving alittle bit on to Upwork. You are
considered a marketing expert onthe platform. So what advice
would you give freelancers whoare looking to achieve similar
success to you on that platformwhen they're getting started?
Pat Cooper (09:50):
Yeah, so I have a lot of so I was the former
president of the American MarketAssociation for Boston. So I
have a lot of students reachingout to me and saying, How do I
get my start working? Get mystart, I see you on Upwork, you
know, you make a lot of money onthere. So like, how do I get my
start there, and a lot of it isjust starting, I didn't start
at, you know, what I'm currentlymaking on Upwork, of course, and
(10:13):
I got started, like, you know,six, seven years ago. But it's
like, take those small projects,build up that portfolio, build
up the foundation, get thosetestimonials, you know, it's, it
really is a foundation they haveto build. And then you have to
layer into layer and to layerbuilding up your skill set. And,
you know, with those clientsthat you make connections with
(10:33):
those turns, those turn intoyour network and those turned
into referrals. So I think mybiggest advice is, you know,
going for the small jobs first,I think is always important to
build up that foundation. Butalso don't be scared to, you
know, go for that bigger job,that bigger project that may be
out of your scope, or, you know,what you're comfortable with AI,
(10:55):
you know, starting on theplatform was very big on fake it
till you make it. Yeah, saying,Can you do this, and I say, he
up, and then I quickly google itto figure out how to do it. But
that led to a lot of my own selfteaching, which led to a lot of
success. And clients feel like,he knows how to do everything.
And I'm like, Well, Google knowshow to do everything. So I know
how to do everything. So thatworks out. But yeah, I'd say
(11:18):
just you know, give it a go giveit a try. Diversify, you know
where you're getting your yourknowledge and skill sets from,
because that's super important.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (11:26):
Yeah, and you bring up a such a great
point that self learning byGoogle, YouTube, LinkedIn
Learning, you name it, there's away for us to find out things
that we don't know, to help usdo the stuff that we don't know.
And I think in some cases,students, as a teacher, myself
at Durham College, you'll thinkof it as a job. You know, I work
(11:48):
in PR as a job, I work inmarketing as a job or
advertising as a job. And it'slike, no, it's it's a career,
it's, it's always evolving, youalways have to stay on top of
either trends or techniques ortools, or whatever the case is.
So it's not just your typical,you know, nine to five clock in
clock out, but it's gonna takesome growth and development. So
I'd love that you, you flag thatfor sure. Of course, yeah. Just
(12:13):
sort of like re-affirming mywhole point to my class, then
they'll just be like, Oh, great,somebody else's said it.
Pat Cooper (12:19):
It's important to treat it like a career too.
Because you know, sometimes overhere answering emails to like
midnight. So here's somebreathing room, make sure that
you treat it like a career havea good work life balance that
we're all somewhat striving tomaintain.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (12:31):
Yeah.
So we've talked about from thestudent perspective, and like
how they can get involved withup work. And you know, just
anybody who's starting out in,in this industry, what about
organizations? What are commonchallenges that you've seen
organizations face in theirmarketing efforts? And how do
you typically advise them toovercome them? Or what kind of
(12:53):
strategies do you recommendbeing put in place to help them
understand or see what thosechallenges are, if maybe they're
not seeing them right up front?
Pat Cooper (13:01):
Oh, that's a really good one. So I'm seeing a lot of
brands not investing as much asthey need to in marketing
operations, having their backend marketing figured out,
especially with a lot of theupdates that Google is rolling
out with, you know, duly adoptedJ. Four, in our cookieless
future and tapping into firstparty data. A lot of brands are
(13:24):
collecting data, but they say,what do we do with it? What are
we? How do we, you know, use itto amplify our marketing
efforts. And they just don'treally know what to do, you
know, they, they're not reallyattuned to all the technical
cadences of, you know, in Googleand Bing, and all the AI that's
rolling out and all theiralgorithm changes. So I think
(13:45):
brands need to be, you know, ontop of their data on top of how
they're collecting data, andbeing able to use that data to
paint a better picture of whotheir audiences.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (13:57):
And do you think, organizations, so you
mentioned how organizations, youknow, they're collecting all
this data and don't know what todo with it? Do you think that it
even takes a step back? And eventhe creation of what their ideal
buyer persona would be? Thatthat hasn't been fully thought
out? Either before they'recollecting this data? They're
like, yeah, we've got all thisinformation. That is great. We
(14:18):
still don't know who our actualaudiences or our target
audiences.
Pat Cooper (14:23):
Yeah, I saw a like hot take on LinkedIn a few
months back that's like, ourtarget segments. Even that
important is building outpersonas really that importance
like yes, of course, it'simportant. Like, if you don't
know who you're targeting, ifyou don't have an ideal like,
you know, I am targeting Joe, heis this he comes from this
(14:43):
background, this is what heneeds. The these are the
challenges that he's facing.
This is how we solved thatproblem. If you don't have that,
that formula laid out. You don'treally know who you are. You
can't really paint yourself as abrand. You can't solve problems.
You can't bring more solutionsto market to fix more problems
that your, you know, targetsegments are having. So it can
be incredibly challenging. Ifyou don't, you know, as much as
(15:06):
people want to bring you newbusiness to life, if you aren't
solving a problem that'sexisting, you're not going to
have demand and ultimately,that's going to be a big issue
for your brand.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (15:17):
Yeah. How do you handle an organization or
company that comes to you andsays, everybody's my target
audience?
Pat Cooper (15:24):
Oh, man, that's a little bit too much. Yeah, I
think you kind of have to breakit out and be like, well, if
everyone's your target audience,then you're gonna need a bigger
marketing budget, you're gonnaneed to pay me more. So I
usually say like, I let's breakit down. What's your product?
How is it self things? Okay,it's solving this problem? Well,
(15:46):
you're going to reach thesepeople, welcome to your target
audience. This is who you'reactively targeting and need to
target. So it's a lot about, youknow, using their data that they
probably don't even rememberthat they're collecting or, you
know, they have a hard timetranslating it to an actual
story and who their audience is,and developing a formula for
(16:07):
them and say, you know,targeting this segment, you're
going to be leveraging theseplatforms that that segment is
on with this creative with thismarketing budget. So it you
know, it all comes from a solidfoundation of taking that data,
building a story and helpingeither organizations or people
that you work with, tounderstand that story and how it
translates into the productsthat they sell.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (16:28):
I love that you brought up the story side of
things. It's all aboutstorytelling at the end of the
day, right? Whether it's PR ormarketing, we're trying to tell
a story trying to get you to buyinto that story.
Pat Cooper (16:38):
Yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (16:38):
You mentioned budget, or you know,
you're gonna pay me more ifthat's the case. What advice or
what is the most effectivetactic Do you think in helping
companies and organizations sortof lower those acquisition
costs, kind of customeracquisition costs, while
accelerating the revenue makingthat money that they they're
looking for?
Pat Cooper (16:58):
Yeah, so the first thing that I typically do or
typically recommend, and it'ssome first things I usually do
when I join a company, is, onceagain, take a look at the data
are conversions accurately beingmeasured, do you know what your
target lead is? What's thequality of the leads that are
coming in, because if you'remarketing, everyone, just a good
(17:19):
lead, and your cost per lead islike 10 bucks, something might
be off, depending on theindustry that you're in. So it's
a lot about qualifying the datathat you have to get a better
readout on the cost that yourbusiness is outputting. So
that's, that's an importantfirst step. And, you know, the
(17:40):
second step is, of course,making sure that your
conversions are accurately beingmeasured. And, you know, you can
provide some reporting that can,you know, paint a picture to how
that setup is, whether it's inyour CMS or your ad marketing
platform. And I always recommendscaling. So scaling is super
important with lead generationstarting small gathering that
(18:03):
data, figuring the bestcreative, you know, how is it
going to target and effectivelyconvert those consumers, and
then scaling up your budget, youknow, scaling up your cost,
based on the success that you'reseeing, or, you know, of course,
seasonality plays a role, too.
So, you know, just those threesteps, I think, are incredibly
crucial for organizations.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (18:24):
Amazing.
For smaller businesses thatmaybe don't have the budget to
bring on a marketer or a PRpractitioner to assist them,
what are some easy low hangingfruit wins, if you will, from a
marketing perspective that theycan start to implement to help
market their own business?
Pat Cooper (18:41):
Yeah, so with businesses that don't really
have a budget to pay a marketer,either like a salary or just
your monthly retainer, Itypically recommend, you know,
hopping on a nice, cool strategysession and kind of going
through their data. And, I mean,I talk a lot of data, but data
is super important. If you'renot collecting data, you don't
(19:02):
know what your marketing is evenmeasuring. And you don't know
who's coming into your business.
Great thing about J. Four isthat it, you know, shows you
everything about your data, eventhough J four isn't like isn't
the best right now, we all missUniversal Analytics. But, you
know, I would just, you know,recommend getting a good
understanding of your data,because whatever you put in the
(19:23):
market, whether it's backed by amarketer, or if it's something
that the business puts outinternally, they need to
understand, you know, oncethat's out in the market, how is
it reflecting within their datawarehouse? Is that showing an
uptick in impressions and clicksand leads? Or is it showing kind
of a downtrend? People aren'treally resonating with that?
(19:44):
Well, that well, so I alwaysrecommend, you know, understand
your data. First, follow thedata and then you can grow your
marketing department that way.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (19:53):
Can you share a moment or a decision in
your career, which has, you'vealready mentioned has started
from one thing and went tocompletely different way that
you felt was like a gamble atthe time, but paid off more than
you could have imagined.
Pat Cooper (20:08):
I have a good story for this.
I don't recommend this, just tonote. So this was the beginning
the pandemic, I was working as aproduct manager. And it was it
was freelance, you know, it waslike 40 hours a week, you know,
very temporary position. But Iended up working out for about
(20:28):
two years. At the same time, Iwas looking for a full time job.
And I ended up working with astartup with a great team, which
was great. And I was working 80hours a week. That's what I
don't recommend working 80 hoursa week, it was crazy. It was
hectic, it was manageable sinceI was working from 6 a.m. to
midnight.
But it was very, very, veryhard. And then the pandemic
(20:49):
continued and continued. Andthen the startup I was working
for was for a short term rental.
So that got axed. And a lot ofmarketers during that time, were
really struggling to find jobs,because you were in the middle
of a pandemic, it's a reallytough time. But I had that
backup that I didn't tell myemployer.
I was saved, I essentially likesaved myself a little bit. It
(21:12):
really helped me, you know,continue into my career. And I
was eventually okay, it paid offand you know, a big way. But I
don't typically recommend anyoneworking multiple jobs at once. I
am definitely a hustler. I'malways looking to build things
and create things. It's just inmy blood. But, you know, it's I
think it was a very uniquescenario that paid off in a very
(21:36):
unique way. But you know,hopefully, we won't have to go
through another pandemic. Sohopefully, we won't have to jump
on over to a full-time job.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (21:47):
Like you mentioned, you've worked both at
startup and agency life. Whatare the unique advantages for
each of those environments froma digital marketing strategist
perspective?
Pat Cooper (21:57):
Yeah, so I have to admit, I think I like agency
life more, it's a bit moredynamic, it's more fun, it's a
lot more fast paced, corporatelife, and in house life has a
lot more red tape, and, youknow, legal around it, which I
don't love. So the cool thingabout agency life is that you
get to work with a lot of reallydynamic clients, you know,
(22:20):
you're working with, you know, adozen to, you know, a dozen more
clients, managing media budgets,managing strategy, kind of,
like, you know, the full nineyards there with, with
marketing, and advertising ingeneral, when I was working at
one of my previous agenciesearlier on in my career, I was
(22:41):
working with a client calledfirst watch, and it was great. I
moved to Florida, and, you know,I was sitting in a first watch
restaurant eating breakfast,while I was working on
FirstWatch, it was a reallycrazy experience. And it made me
just love agency life, you know,just meeting with the reps and
meeting with the clients. And,you know, doing all this really
(23:03):
interesting and dynamic,creative work across my team
was, it was just a lot of fun.
And I always recommend if you'rea college student, kind of just
starting out your career, Iwould always recommend starting
at an agency, you pick up a lotmore a lot quicker, you work
with a variety of differentclients, you know, you don't
have to cut off your career tojust one person or one one
client, one industry, onemarketing team, it's very
(23:25):
singular, I think working inhouse, it's a lot slower in
house, which can be a goodthing. It's a lot more laid
back. Not as much pressure, Ithink, as an agency, agency,
life can get really hectic. ButI think in house work can feel a
lot more secure, which is reallynice. Especially as you get
older and older into yourcareer. There. I think there's a
(23:49):
bit more tenured in house work,which is cool. But I think you
know, overall, agency life issuper fun. If you're looking to
do something a little bit morefast paced work with a lot of
different clients, if you wantto something that's a bit more,
you know, secure, although Idon't want to use a surfboard
secure. But if you want to useif you want to focus on, you
know, more singular work, I wantto work with this one brand. I'm
(24:10):
really passionate about whatthey do that I think in house,
work is perfect for you.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:17):
Yeah. And that's funny that you say that
all that because that's exactlywhat I tell my students, if you
can, when you're starting out,do agency experience what
agencies life is like,particularly because you kind of
get thrown into the deep end. Soyou learn so much so quickly,
versus when you're in house andthey sort of coddle you, if you
will, like okay, you're juststarting out, it's okay. Well,
(24:39):
we'll ease you in and eighttimes, like after you go.
Pat Cooper (24:42):
Welcome to the fire.
Absolutely.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:47):
Yeah. So I completely agree with you on
that. There's lots of talk aboutAI. No matter where you turn,
there's AI conversations, right?
How has AI or maybe otheremerging technologies or
platforms helped you in yourcareer? And what are the ones
that you believe will becritical in digital marketing
strategies going forward?
Pat Cooper (25:08):
Okay, so for my career, Eric has helped you
know, a bit, I think thatthere's a lot of AI baked into
marketing platforms these days.
So obviously, that helps me onthe day to day pumping out
campaigns a lot quicker and, youknow, managing performance a
little bit easier, especially,you know, working a lot in
Google ads, and Microsoft adsand meta ad. So I think that's
helped me in terms of, you know,I have a website that I run blog
(25:32):
content for. So tapping into AIto help me build that content
and build the structures made mylife a lot easier. I would never
recommend replacing any contentpeople on your team with AI, but
I think it's a fundamental toolthat marketing teams will need
to tap into. And I think, youknow, there's a lot of
(25:53):
opportunity for, for brands totap into different elements of
AI, there's AI for everythingthese days, right, there's AI to
optimize SEO, there's AI toolsto optimize, you know, paid
media budgets and paid mediaplatforms, there's AI to write
blog posts, there's a adequateheadshots, and there's like,
there's so many tools out there,I think that it's more about
leveraging it as a tool, ratherthan it is your go to for
(26:17):
everything. Because, you know,people put in the the resources
and the content that AI feedsout, we have to remember that AI
isn't just coming up with thiscontent on its own, it can't
think for itself, it's not goingto, you know, know, these
answers, you know, by its basecode, it requires people and I
think that we need to understandthat there's a better
(26:41):
collaboration between the peopleand the tools and the AI that
we're, you know, really givingcredit for. And I think we're,
you know, a lot of brands aremoving too quickly into just
wiping out their teams andreplacing AI, like I saw a
headline the other day that Ithink was Klarna got rid of like
hundreds of their staff, becausethey're getting rid of AI. And
(27:02):
it's, it's horrible, becauseit's like, well, I want to talk
to someone, if I'm having anissue, I don't want to talk to
some AI generated, you know,response, it's kind of a crappy
experience, I feel like, youknow, with, you know, going back
and authenticity, it's like,some brands haven't nailed it
out yet to a point where it hasa good deliverable experience
(27:23):
for their audience. So, youknow, go hand in hand with it,
don't don't let it over,overtake your your team and
overtake how your brand is, youknow, getting a response from.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (27:37):
I've heard a few conversations, and I'd
love your insights on it, where,right now we're sort of in that
pendulum, pendulum swing all theway over to everything ai, ai,
ai. And there's going to be thatpendulum swinging back where
people are going to want thathuman generated content. And
sort of the idea of, you know,we're a marketing or PR agency,
(27:59):
we can, you know, do it all AI,there's a charge for that, or
there's made with heart, or madewith, you know, made with by
somebody or an actual personthat you'll have a different
feed of that. Do you thinkthat's maybe something that
we'll be seeing more of? Or doyou think it's going to be more
they go hand in hand, it's justa tool, but the human is the one
(28:21):
who's really navigating thatcontent and putting it forward
versus that separation of AIfully generated or persons
generated.
Pat Cooper (28:29):
So that's really interesting, because I can see a
lot of agencies that are like,Hey, we're not AI redevelop,
we're Content Agency, or an SEOagency that doesn't use AI. But
I think a lot of peoplefundamentally aren't gonna like
that, because it almost seemslike you aren't on top of
today's technology. So I thinkit's going to be more hand
holding with AI. And, you know,say like, you know, we use AI to
(28:53):
fuel the creative impact or teamhas on, you know, your marketing
efforts or something like that.
I think that, you know, everyonewants to, especially if you're
working with agencies, everyonewants to have a creative team
that's developing, you know,amazing marketing that's going
to, you know, fuel theirpipeline and fuel the ROI that
they need for their company, butthey don't want to hire an
(29:16):
agency just for AI to do thejob, and what are they paying
for, you know, just a tool toauto generate some blog posts or
auto generate some images, theydon't like that. So I think it's
going to be more, you know, weuse AI as a tool to fuel the
work we do. We make quickerwork, we make better work, our
team works a lot moreefficiently. Because, you know,
efficiency is everything in thebusiness world nowadays, with
(29:38):
growth to scale. So, I thinkthat, you know, AI is definitely
going to need to go hand in handwith humans, it's not going to
be able to replace everything.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (29:49):
Amazing.
This has been such a great chat.
So, okay, I have one finalquestion before we wrap things
up. This like I said has beenamazing. I, I've always wanted
to learn more about themarketing side, and you've met
some things that I've sort ofwritten down if, for those who
can't see me, I've beenfrivolously writing down a bunch
(30:10):
of stuff that he'd been saying.
So furiously sorry, writing themdown so that I can kind of go
back and learn more about thosetools that you mentioned,
particularly when looking atdata. Data for me is
overwhelming. And when I lookat, I'm like, Whoa, that's a lot
of information. Where do I evenbegin? So that's a huge
component that I think everyonewho either has a business has a
(30:32):
podcast has a whatever blogeven, right you want to ensure
that you know where that data iscoming from and how you can
properly use it to better marketyourself. So thank you for all
that information.
The the secret sauce, the magic,the the knowledge that
everything that you have tooffer, can you share one piece
(30:52):
of wisdom or that secret? Right,that magic sauce that you have
found to be pivotal in your ownsuccess, but others have maybe
overlooked?
Pat Cooper (31:01):
Yeah, I think it's okay to try something new. I'm
definitely a hustler. I ambuilding out, you know, a few
side businesses right now as I'mtalking. So, you know, I'm
definitely into this space whereI find something cool, I gotta
try it, I gotta do something.
And that's really helped with mycareer with developing new skill
sets and, you know, developingnew talents and, you know, new
(31:25):
strategies for marketing. Ithink that, you know, trying
something new whether it's, youknow, doing a little bit of
freelance work, and you know,building up your skill set
there, or, you know, trying outa different marketing field and
seeing if that's the right fitfor you, I think that a lot of
people are afraid to kind oflike, try something new. And you
know, especially in today'sbusiness environment, how tricky
(31:46):
it is to land, you know, jobsand further careers because of
AI.
But I think it's super, superfundamental to try something
new. If I didn't try to go afterthat weird random blog writing
job that I found while I wasworking the backroom at Target.
I wouldn't be where I am in mycareer. So it's okay to try
(32:08):
something new. It may not workout. That's fine. You just
backpedal. But if it does workout, you just open up a whole
new opportunity, potentially acareer for yourself. So, you
know, try something new. Trysomething creative. It doesn't
work out. It's okay. It's alesson if it does work out.
Great.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:23):
Amazing, amazing. So my last question for
you is this is PR & Lattes. So Ihave to ask, what is your
favorite go to caffeinatedbeverage?
Pat Cooper (32:33):
Ooh, caffeinated.
Um, I'm gonna say my morningDunkin's order. Is my I want a
soda I think is likedecaffeinated these days. So I
can't say soda. I would say agood large hot coffee from
Dunkin Donuts is my go tocaffeinated drink. Drink it
every morning. I have a lot ofguests on my show that share
(32:54):
some good answers aboutcaffeinated beverages that I
cannot remember right now. Butusually like for sugars, tons of
tons of flavored crap in it.
That's probably a horrible formy health. But Dunk's is by far
my favorite go-to.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:11):
Amazing.
It's one of my favoritequestions to ask on the podcast,
because I'm like, oh, thatsounds like a good order.
Pat Cooper (33:16):
I have a whole book just writing down all the rest
of us.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:20):
Exactly.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today's podcast. Pat. I
really appreciate all your timeand your insights. If people
want to get in touch with you orfollow you on social where can
they find you?
Pat Cooper (33:31):
Yeah, so you can find me everywhere at Pat B.
Cooper. pretty active on X.
pretty active on LinkedIn. Ithink LinkedIn is just LinkedIn
is Pat Cooper, I don't reallyfollow your URL there. And you
can just find me on my site,PatBCooper.com If you want to
connect with me, and of courseyou can follow Brands Over
Brews, which is my podcast thatgoes out every Monday.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:52):
Amazing, and we'll have links to all that
in the podcast description soyou can check it out. Thank you
again so much for being ontoday's podcast.
Pat Cooper (34:00):
Thank you is great.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (34:02):
You've been listening to the PR & Lattes
podcast. Make sure to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts
so you can get notified eachweek when a new episode drops.
You can also subscribe to ourweekly newsletter by visiting
our website prandlattes.com. Onthe website, you'll find our
podcast episodes as well asamazing blogs with new ones
being posted every Mondaymorning. And of course make sure
(34:25):
to follow us on social onInstagram at @PRAndLattes and on
LinkedIn. I've been your hostMatisse Hamel-Nelis. Thank you
so much for listening, and we'llsee you next week with a new
latte and guest. Bye for now.
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of PR & Lattes, the podcastwhere you can fill up your cup
on everything PR andcommunications. I'm your host
Matisse Hamel-Nelis. And I am sothrilled to have you join me for
a brand new episode. Before weget started, make sure you
subscribe to this podcastwherever you're listening to it
to get notified each week duringthe season when a new episode
(00:23):
drops. You can also subscribe toour newsletter by visiting our
website PR and lattes.com. Onthe website, you'll find our
podcast episodes, plus ouramazing blogs with new ones
being uploaded every Mondaymorning. And of course, make
sure you're following us onsocials by following us on
Instagram at @PRAndLattes and onLinkedIn PR & Lattes. On today's
(00:46):
episode, I'm chatting with PatCooper, a seasoned digital
marketing strategist. Withnearly a decade of experience
helping brands redefine theirmarketing strategy to lower
customer acquisition costs andaccelerate revenue. He has
worked alongside CMOs and CEOson startups in house and agency
teams, and has generated over$15 million in revenue. Pat is
(01:08):
also the host of brands overbrews a weekly podcast that
dives into the deep minds ofmarketing and business leaders
who are shaping the future ofthe industry. I'm so excited to
chat with Pat about all thingsdigital marketing. So grab your
latte, sit back and enjoy.
I am so excited for today'sepisode, Pat, welcome to PR and
(01:29):
lattes, how are you doing? Howis life?
Pat Cooper (01:32):
I'm doing well. It's sunny over here in Tampa,
Florida. So life is great asalways amazing.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (01:38):
It's sunny here. It's weird for a March day
in Toronto. But I'm not gonnacomplain. It's great. It's
great. So let's dive into it.
Today we're going to be talkingabout marketing and all that fun
jazz. But before we get started,can you tell me a little bit
about your own journey inmarketing?
Pat Cooper (01:58):
Yeah, so I had kind of a untypical journey into
marketing. I started out as atheater major and a college drop
out and all that stuff. I founda really cool gig writing
content online. And I didn'tthink it was real because I
didn't think you could writecontent online and make money
(02:18):
off of that. So I thought it wasa scam ended up not being a scam
ended up turning into a reallycool gig writing content for
agencies, which I did for a fewyears, worked in the startup
space, became a product managerfor a cybersecurity publication,
worked, returned back to agencylife managing Fortune 5000
(02:40):
companies, which was, you know,a really cool experience. And
then I ended up in house workingfor a really cool tech company.
So it's been a little bit allover the place. But it's been a
really cool creative processthroughout my career.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (02:56):
Amazing.
And you've had some significantachievements in your career. Can
you pinpoint a strategy orcampaign that really stands out
for you in your that you'veexperienced that was really
transformative for the brandthat you worked for, but also
for yourself?
Pat Cooper (03:10):
Yeah, so some of the strategies that I really love
are local strategies. I knowthat a lot of marketers they
work with global brands withhuge budgets. But I think some
of the more fun campaigns comefrom when you can have a local
impact, even with a small adbudget, being able to you know,
churn leads for a business andsee a small business grow and
(03:32):
grow and bring more people ontotheir team and kind of fuel that
business growth. It can have areal impact and it's had an
impact for my career. Of course,I do a lot of consulting and
freelance work on the side. Soworking with local, you know,
some like blue collar companieshas been really cool because
when you work with a lot oflocal clients that typically
(03:54):
brings out new leads for yourbusiness and referrals and kind
of turns your own business whichis great, but you know, having a
local impact, it's it's reallygreat. It's something that you
know, you can go to sleep with,you know, feeling well rested
that you did good for otherpeople.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (04:09):
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
Particularly the focus on localyou know, there's that whole
push of shop local and staylocal and all that fun jazz and
helping those small businessesgrow and thrive with the
strategy I think is soimperative. So I love that
that's your favorite like yourfavorite thing. Right in the
heart right in the heart.
Pat Cooper (04:30):
Yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (04:31):
So similar to me, you host a podcast, which
I absolutely love the nameBrands Over Brews. Fantastic. So
you yourself have had theopportunity to dive into the
minds of industry leaders, whichyou know, this is one of my
favourite things about hosting apodcast is I get to learn from
people I have looked up to whoknow things that I have always
(04:52):
wanted to learn about and thatsort of thing, which is also why
you're on the podcast today. Sowhat do you think is one insight
or trend that while you've beendoing your podcast has really
resonated or was uncovered,that's changed your way of
working.
Pat Cooper (05:07):
Yeah, so something I've picked up from a lot of my
guests when they speak to theirsuccess in their career, and
what they do for marketing forother brands, is really tapping
into authenticity and the humanapproach. And I think that
that's really impacted themarketing work I do, how I work
with my own clients on aconsulting basis, you know,
(05:28):
really break things down to alevel where they understand
things and bring in morehumanity to marketing, doing
that local, you know, smallbusiness impact has been super
important for my work. But youknow, everyone's kind of digging
into the authenticity thesedays, doing things a bit more
organically doing things off thecuff, not having things like
super, super clean, I think alot of that is rolled off from
(05:51):
the pandemic, because we haven'tbeen able to do things as clean
as you know, we did before. So Ithink it's been a lot of
pivoting. And when you seebrands pivot and sometimes make
mistakes, and maybe do thingsmore geared towards like
guerilla marketing, you do seethat authenticity and that human
approach to the brand and topeople's marketing. And I think
that we need more brands to tapinto that, you know, human
(06:13):
element for the consumer.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (06:16):
I definitely agree there. Do you
find ever that some brands aretrying to be authentic without
being authentic? And seeing ifthat sort of flies?
Pat Cooper (06:26):
Yeah, you know, I just had a guest on yesterday
where we talked about localimpact, and, you know, economic
impact and kind of likegreenwashing and how a lot of
brands can often say they'redoing something, but they're not
actually doing something. Soyeah, I mean, I've definitely
come across brands that, youknow, when they don't have
(06:50):
necessarily as much impact asthey want to be, or they try to
tap into something that theyaren't, you know, we've we've, I
think, seen that quite a bit.
And it's unfortunate, you know,I think when you need when you
want to tap into authenticity asa brand, you're gonna have to do
a lot of self reflecting to kindof figure out who is your brand?
What kind of impact do you wantto make? on a human level? Like,
(07:11):
who are you like, who you'retrying to reach who you're
trying to be? And, you know,using that to elevate your
marketing, because obviously,you don't want to have a very,
you know, synthetic, authenticsort of look and feel, because
then it just seems like you'retrying to copy other people or,
you know, when consumers getthat experience, they're like,
Yeah, I didn't really like that.
(07:33):
I don't think I'm gonna shopwith them again. So you have to
be very, very mindful about whatyou're actually putting out
there.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:38):
Yeah. And then it leads into if that if
you are creating that syntheticauthenticity, then you're
leading to a PR situation.
Pat Cooper (07:46):
Oh, my goodness, yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (07:49):
We're trying to manage that part of
it. And it's just a bit of amess. The reason I ask is that,
particularly with the DEIinitiatives, at least, you know,
that are getting pushed out andpeople not necessarily jumping
on a bandwagon. But you know,saying we we are DEI-focus and
DEI-centric or diversity, equityand inclusion centric, but then
(08:11):
not having policies or item oraspects within their own inner
workings that actually speak tothat. But saying like, yes, we
are this yes, we are that whenreally they're not right. So
that's why I was curious aboutthe synthetic authenticity, if
that was something that you werenoticing a bit more, or if it's
more leaning towards being trulyauthentic, and maybe opening up
(08:33):
or acknowledging gaps thatpeople may have organizations
may have, and kind of owning upto that and be like, This is how
we're working on things.
Pat Cooper (08:43):
Yeah, no, I mean, two things there. One, you know,
it's really disappointing withDEI, because you'll see a lot
more companies are laying offtheir DEI departments or their
head of DEI even, you know,Google's laying off, you know,
DEI positions and getting rid oflike, you know, AI vetting
teams, which is very concerning.
But it's It's so disappointingto, you know, see brands do
(09:06):
that, where they, they hop onthe bandwagon, say we need DEI
and then you know, a few yearslater, they're like, alright, we
did it, we can get rid of them.
It's super disappointing. And interms of authenticity, yeah, I
do see a lot more brands tappinginto it. But I also see a lot of
brands like not sure what to dowith it similar with DEI they're
like, well, we hired the person.
So we're done. Right?
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (09:29):
Yeah, we've checked that box. We're good.
Yes. All right. So moving alittle bit on to Upwork. You are
considered a marketing expert onthe platform. So what advice
would you give freelancers whoare looking to achieve similar
success to you on that platformwhen they're getting started?
Pat Cooper (09:50):
Yeah, so I have a lot of so I was the former
president of the American MarketAssociation for Boston. So I
have a lot of students reachingout to me and saying, How do I
get my start working? Get mystart, I see you on Upwork, you
know, you make a lot of money onthere. So like, how do I get my
start there, and a lot of it isjust starting, I didn't start
at, you know, what I'm currentlymaking on Upwork, of course, and
(10:13):
I got started, like, you know,six, seven years ago. But it's
like, take those small projects,build up that portfolio, build
up the foundation, get thosetestimonials, you know, it's, it
really is a foundation they haveto build. And then you have to
layer into layer and to layerbuilding up your skill set. And,
you know, with those clientsthat you make connections with
(10:33):
those turns, those turn intoyour network and those turned
into referrals. So I think mybiggest advice is, you know,
going for the small jobs first,I think is always important to
build up that foundation. Butalso don't be scared to, you
know, go for that bigger job,that bigger project that may be
out of your scope, or, you know,what you're comfortable with AI,
(10:55):
you know, starting on theplatform was very big on fake it
till you make it. Yeah, saying,Can you do this, and I say, he
up, and then I quickly google itto figure out how to do it. But
that led to a lot of my own selfteaching, which led to a lot of
success. And clients feel like,he knows how to do everything.
And I'm like, Well, Google knowshow to do everything. So I know
how to do everything. So thatworks out. But yeah, I'd say
(11:18):
just you know, give it a go giveit a try. Diversify, you know
where you're getting your yourknowledge and skill sets from,
because that's super important.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (11:26):
Yeah, and you bring up a such a great
point that self learning byGoogle, YouTube, LinkedIn
Learning, you name it, there's away for us to find out things
that we don't know, to help usdo the stuff that we don't know.
And I think in some cases,students, as a teacher, myself
at Durham College, you'll thinkof it as a job. You know, I work
(11:48):
in PR as a job, I work inmarketing as a job or
advertising as a job. And it'slike, no, it's it's a career,
it's, it's always evolving, youalways have to stay on top of
either trends or techniques ortools, or whatever the case is.
So it's not just your typical,you know, nine to five clock in
clock out, but it's gonna takesome growth and development. So
I'd love that you, you flag thatfor sure. Of course, yeah. Just
(12:13):
sort of like re-affirming mywhole point to my class, then
they'll just be like, Oh, great,somebody else's said it.
Pat Cooper (12:19):
It's important to treat it like a career too.
Because you know, sometimes overhere answering emails to like
midnight. So here's somebreathing room, make sure that
you treat it like a career havea good work life balance that
we're all somewhat striving tomaintain.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (12:31):
Yeah.
So we've talked about from thestudent perspective, and like
how they can get involved withup work. And you know, just
anybody who's starting out in,in this industry, what about
organizations? What are commonchallenges that you've seen
organizations face in theirmarketing efforts? And how do
you typically advise them toovercome them? Or what kind of
(12:53):
strategies do you recommendbeing put in place to help them
understand or see what thosechallenges are, if maybe they're
not seeing them right up front?
Pat Cooper (13:01):
Oh, that's a really good one. So I'm seeing a lot of
brands not investing as much asthey need to in marketing
operations, having their backend marketing figured out,
especially with a lot of theupdates that Google is rolling
out with, you know, duly adoptedJ. Four, in our cookieless
future and tapping into firstparty data. A lot of brands are
(13:24):
collecting data, but they say,what do we do with it? What are
we? How do we, you know, use itto amplify our marketing
efforts. And they just don'treally know what to do, you
know, they, they're not reallyattuned to all the technical
cadences of, you know, in Googleand Bing, and all the AI that's
rolling out and all theiralgorithm changes. So I think
(13:45):
brands need to be, you know, ontop of their data on top of how
they're collecting data, andbeing able to use that data to
paint a better picture of whotheir audiences.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (13:57):
And do you think, organizations, so you
mentioned how organizations, youknow, they're collecting all
this data and don't know what todo with it? Do you think that it
even takes a step back? And eventhe creation of what their ideal
buyer persona would be? Thatthat hasn't been fully thought
out? Either before they'recollecting this data? They're
like, yeah, we've got all thisinformation. That is great. We
(14:18):
still don't know who our actualaudiences or our target
audiences.
Pat Cooper (14:23):
Yeah, I saw a like hot take on LinkedIn a few
months back that's like, ourtarget segments. Even that
important is building outpersonas really that importance
like yes, of course, it'simportant. Like, if you don't
know who you're targeting, ifyou don't have an ideal like,
you know, I am targeting Joe, heis this he comes from this
(14:43):
background, this is what heneeds. The these are the
challenges that he's facing.
This is how we solved thatproblem. If you don't have that,
that formula laid out. You don'treally know who you are. You
can't really paint yourself as abrand. You can't solve problems.
You can't bring more solutionsto market to fix more problems
that your, you know, targetsegments are having. So it can
be incredibly challenging. Ifyou don't, you know, as much as
(15:06):
people want to bring you newbusiness to life, if you aren't
solving a problem that'sexisting, you're not going to
have demand and ultimately,that's going to be a big issue
for your brand.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (15:17):
Yeah. How do you handle an organization or
company that comes to you andsays, everybody's my target
audience?
Pat Cooper (15:24):
Oh, man, that's a little bit too much. Yeah, I
think you kind of have to breakit out and be like, well, if
everyone's your target audience,then you're gonna need a bigger
marketing budget, you're gonnaneed to pay me more. So I
usually say like, I let's breakit down. What's your product?
How is it self things? Okay,it's solving this problem? Well,
(15:46):
you're going to reach thesepeople, welcome to your target
audience. This is who you'reactively targeting and need to
target. So it's a lot about, youknow, using their data that they
probably don't even rememberthat they're collecting or, you
know, they have a hard timetranslating it to an actual
story and who their audience is,and developing a formula for
(16:07):
them and say, you know,targeting this segment, you're
going to be leveraging theseplatforms that that segment is
on with this creative with thismarketing budget. So it you
know, it all comes from a solidfoundation of taking that data,
building a story and helpingeither organizations or people
that you work with, tounderstand that story and how it
translates into the productsthat they sell.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (16:28):
I love that you brought up the story side of
things. It's all aboutstorytelling at the end of the
day, right? Whether it's PR ormarketing, we're trying to tell
a story trying to get you to buyinto that story.
Pat Cooper (16:38):
Yeah.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (16:38):
You mentioned budget, or you know,
you're gonna pay me more ifthat's the case. What advice or
what is the most effectivetactic Do you think in helping
companies and organizations sortof lower those acquisition
costs, kind of customeracquisition costs, while
accelerating the revenue makingthat money that they they're
looking for?
Pat Cooper (16:58):
Yeah, so the first thing that I typically do or
typically recommend, and it'ssome first things I usually do
when I join a company, is, onceagain, take a look at the data
are conversions accurately beingmeasured, do you know what your
target lead is? What's thequality of the leads that are
coming in, because if you'remarketing, everyone, just a good
(17:19):
lead, and your cost per lead islike 10 bucks, something might
be off, depending on theindustry that you're in. So it's
a lot about qualifying the datathat you have to get a better
readout on the cost that yourbusiness is outputting. So
that's, that's an importantfirst step. And, you know, the
(17:40):
second step is, of course,making sure that your
conversions are accurately beingmeasured. And, you know, you can
provide some reporting that can,you know, paint a picture to how
that setup is, whether it's inyour CMS or your ad marketing
platform. And I always recommendscaling. So scaling is super
important with lead generationstarting small gathering that
(18:03):
data, figuring the bestcreative, you know, how is it
going to target and effectivelyconvert those consumers, and
then scaling up your budget, youknow, scaling up your cost,
based on the success that you'reseeing, or, you know, of course,
seasonality plays a role, too.
So, you know, just those threesteps, I think, are incredibly
crucial for organizations.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (18:24):
Amazing.
For smaller businesses thatmaybe don't have the budget to
bring on a marketer or a PRpractitioner to assist them,
what are some easy low hangingfruit wins, if you will, from a
marketing perspective that theycan start to implement to help
market their own business?
Pat Cooper (18:41):
Yeah, so with businesses that don't really
have a budget to pay a marketer,either like a salary or just
your monthly retainer, Itypically recommend, you know,
hopping on a nice, cool strategysession and kind of going
through their data. And, I mean,I talk a lot of data, but data
is super important. If you'renot collecting data, you don't
(19:02):
know what your marketing is evenmeasuring. And you don't know
who's coming into your business.
Great thing about J. Four isthat it, you know, shows you
everything about your data, eventhough J four isn't like isn't
the best right now, we all missUniversal Analytics. But, you
know, I would just, you know,recommend getting a good
understanding of your data,because whatever you put in the
(19:23):
market, whether it's backed by amarketer, or if it's something
that the business puts outinternally, they need to
understand, you know, oncethat's out in the market, how is
it reflecting within their datawarehouse? Is that showing an
uptick in impressions and clicksand leads? Or is it showing kind
of a downtrend? People aren'treally resonating with that?
(19:44):
Well, that well, so I alwaysrecommend, you know, understand
your data. First, follow thedata and then you can grow your
marketing department that way.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (19:53):
Can you share a moment or a decision in
your career, which has, you'vealready mentioned has started
from one thing and went tocompletely different way that
you felt was like a gamble atthe time, but paid off more than
you could have imagined.
Pat Cooper (20:08):
I have a good story for this.
I don't recommend this, just tonote. So this was the beginning
the pandemic, I was working as aproduct manager. And it was it
was freelance, you know, it waslike 40 hours a week, you know,
very temporary position. But Iended up working out for about
(20:28):
two years. At the same time, Iwas looking for a full time job.
And I ended up working with astartup with a great team, which
was great. And I was working 80hours a week. That's what I
don't recommend working 80 hoursa week, it was crazy. It was
hectic, it was manageable sinceI was working from 6 a.m. to
midnight.
But it was very, very, veryhard. And then the pandemic
(20:49):
continued and continued. Andthen the startup I was working
for was for a short term rental.
So that got axed. And a lot ofmarketers during that time, were
really struggling to find jobs,because you were in the middle
of a pandemic, it's a reallytough time. But I had that
backup that I didn't tell myemployer.
I was saved, I essentially likesaved myself a little bit. It
(21:12):
really helped me, you know,continue into my career. And I
was eventually okay, it paid offand you know, a big way. But I
don't typically recommend anyoneworking multiple jobs at once. I
am definitely a hustler. I'malways looking to build things
and create things. It's just inmy blood. But, you know, it's I
think it was a very uniquescenario that paid off in a very
(21:36):
unique way. But you know,hopefully, we won't have to go
through another pandemic. Sohopefully, we won't have to jump
on over to a full-time job.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (21:47):
Like you mentioned, you've worked both at
startup and agency life. Whatare the unique advantages for
each of those environments froma digital marketing strategist
perspective?
Pat Cooper (21:57):
Yeah, so I have to admit, I think I like agency
life more, it's a bit moredynamic, it's more fun, it's a
lot more fast paced, corporatelife, and in house life has a
lot more red tape, and, youknow, legal around it, which I
don't love. So the cool thingabout agency life is that you
get to work with a lot of reallydynamic clients, you know,
(22:20):
you're working with, you know, adozen to, you know, a dozen more
clients, managing media budgets,managing strategy, kind of,
like, you know, the full nineyards there with, with
marketing, and advertising ingeneral, when I was working at
one of my previous agenciesearlier on in my career, I was
(22:41):
working with a client calledfirst watch, and it was great. I
moved to Florida, and, you know,I was sitting in a first watch
restaurant eating breakfast,while I was working on
FirstWatch, it was a reallycrazy experience. And it made me
just love agency life, you know,just meeting with the reps and
meeting with the clients. And,you know, doing all this really
(23:03):
interesting and dynamic,creative work across my team
was, it was just a lot of fun.
And I always recommend if you'rea college student, kind of just
starting out your career, Iwould always recommend starting
at an agency, you pick up a lotmore a lot quicker, you work
with a variety of differentclients, you know, you don't
have to cut off your career tojust one person or one one
client, one industry, onemarketing team, it's very
(23:25):
singular, I think working inhouse, it's a lot slower in
house, which can be a goodthing. It's a lot more laid
back. Not as much pressure, Ithink, as an agency, agency,
life can get really hectic. ButI think in house work can feel a
lot more secure, which is reallynice. Especially as you get
older and older into yourcareer. There. I think there's a
(23:49):
bit more tenured in house work,which is cool. But I think you
know, overall, agency life issuper fun. If you're looking to
do something a little bit morefast paced work with a lot of
different clients, if you wantto something that's a bit more,
you know, secure, although Idon't want to use a surfboard
secure. But if you want to useif you want to focus on, you
know, more singular work, I wantto work with this one brand. I'm
(24:10):
really passionate about whatthey do that I think in house,
work is perfect for you.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:17):
Yeah. And that's funny that you say that
all that because that's exactlywhat I tell my students, if you
can, when you're starting out,do agency experience what
agencies life is like,particularly because you kind of
get thrown into the deep end. Soyou learn so much so quickly,
versus when you're in house andthey sort of coddle you, if you
will, like okay, you're juststarting out, it's okay. Well,
(24:39):
we'll ease you in and eighttimes, like after you go.
Pat Cooper (24:42):
Welcome to the fire.
Absolutely.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (24:47):
Yeah. So I completely agree with you on
that. There's lots of talk aboutAI. No matter where you turn,
there's AI conversations, right?
How has AI or maybe otheremerging technologies or
platforms helped you in yourcareer? And what are the ones
that you believe will becritical in digital marketing
strategies going forward?
Pat Cooper (25:08):
Okay, so for my career, Eric has helped you
know, a bit, I think thatthere's a lot of AI baked into
marketing platforms these days.
So obviously, that helps me onthe day to day pumping out
campaigns a lot quicker and, youknow, managing performance a
little bit easier, especially,you know, working a lot in
Google ads, and Microsoft adsand meta ad. So I think that's
helped me in terms of, you know,I have a website that I run blog
(25:32):
content for. So tapping into AIto help me build that content
and build the structures made mylife a lot easier. I would never
recommend replacing any contentpeople on your team with AI, but
I think it's a fundamental toolthat marketing teams will need
to tap into. And I think, youknow, there's a lot of
(25:53):
opportunity for, for brands totap into different elements of
AI, there's AI for everythingthese days, right, there's AI to
optimize SEO, there's AI toolsto optimize, you know, paid
media budgets and paid mediaplatforms, there's AI to write
blog posts, there's a adequateheadshots, and there's like,
there's so many tools out there,I think that it's more about
leveraging it as a tool, ratherthan it is your go to for
(26:17):
everything. Because, you know,people put in the the resources
and the content that AI feedsout, we have to remember that AI
isn't just coming up with thiscontent on its own, it can't
think for itself, it's not goingto, you know, know, these
answers, you know, by its basecode, it requires people and I
think that we need to understandthat there's a better
(26:41):
collaboration between the peopleand the tools and the AI that
we're, you know, really givingcredit for. And I think we're,
you know, a lot of brands aremoving too quickly into just
wiping out their teams andreplacing AI, like I saw a
headline the other day that Ithink was Klarna got rid of like
hundreds of their staff, becausethey're getting rid of AI. And
(27:02):
it's, it's horrible, becauseit's like, well, I want to talk
to someone, if I'm having anissue, I don't want to talk to
some AI generated, you know,response, it's kind of a crappy
experience, I feel like, youknow, with, you know, going back
and authenticity, it's like,some brands haven't nailed it
out yet to a point where it hasa good deliverable experience
(27:23):
for their audience. So, youknow, go hand in hand with it,
don't don't let it over,overtake your your team and
overtake how your brand is, youknow, getting a response from.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (27:37):
I've heard a few conversations, and I'd
love your insights on it, where,right now we're sort of in that
pendulum, pendulum swing all theway over to everything ai, ai,
ai. And there's going to be thatpendulum swinging back where
people are going to want thathuman generated content. And
sort of the idea of, you know,we're a marketing or PR agency,
(27:59):
we can, you know, do it all AI,there's a charge for that, or
there's made with heart, or madewith, you know, made with by
somebody or an actual personthat you'll have a different
feed of that. Do you thinkthat's maybe something that
we'll be seeing more of? Or doyou think it's going to be more
they go hand in hand, it's justa tool, but the human is the one
(28:21):
who's really navigating thatcontent and putting it forward
versus that separation of AIfully generated or persons
generated.
Pat Cooper (28:29):
So that's really interesting, because I can see a
lot of agencies that are like,Hey, we're not AI redevelop,
we're Content Agency, or an SEOagency that doesn't use AI. But
I think a lot of peoplefundamentally aren't gonna like
that, because it almost seemslike you aren't on top of
today's technology. So I thinkit's going to be more hand
holding with AI. And, you know,say like, you know, we use AI to
(28:53):
fuel the creative impact or teamhas on, you know, your marketing
efforts or something like that.
I think that, you know, everyonewants to, especially if you're
working with agencies, everyonewants to have a creative team
that's developing, you know,amazing marketing that's going
to, you know, fuel theirpipeline and fuel the ROI that
they need for their company, butthey don't want to hire an
(29:16):
agency just for AI to do thejob, and what are they paying
for, you know, just a tool toauto generate some blog posts or
auto generate some images, theydon't like that. So I think it's
going to be more, you know, weuse AI as a tool to fuel the
work we do. We make quickerwork, we make better work, our
team works a lot moreefficiently. Because, you know,
efficiency is everything in thebusiness world nowadays, with
(29:38):
growth to scale. So, I thinkthat, you know, AI is definitely
going to need to go hand in handwith humans, it's not going to
be able to replace everything.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (29:49):
Amazing.
This has been such a great chat.
So, okay, I have one finalquestion before we wrap things
up. This like I said has beenamazing. I, I've always wanted
to learn more about themarketing side, and you've met
some things that I've sort ofwritten down if, for those who
can't see me, I've beenfrivolously writing down a bunch
(30:10):
of stuff that he'd been saying.
So furiously sorry, writing themdown so that I can kind of go
back and learn more about thosetools that you mentioned,
particularly when looking atdata. Data for me is
overwhelming. And when I lookat, I'm like, Whoa, that's a lot
of information. Where do I evenbegin? So that's a huge
component that I think everyonewho either has a business has a
(30:32):
podcast has a whatever blogeven, right you want to ensure
that you know where that data iscoming from and how you can
properly use it to better marketyourself. So thank you for all
that information.
The the secret sauce, the magic,the the knowledge that
everything that you have tooffer, can you share one piece
(30:52):
of wisdom or that secret? Right,that magic sauce that you have
found to be pivotal in your ownsuccess, but others have maybe
overlooked?
Pat Cooper (31:01):
Yeah, I think it's okay to try something new. I'm
definitely a hustler. I ambuilding out, you know, a few
side businesses right now as I'mtalking. So, you know, I'm
definitely into this space whereI find something cool, I gotta
try it, I gotta do something.
And that's really helped with mycareer with developing new skill
sets and, you know, developingnew talents and, you know, new
(31:25):
strategies for marketing. Ithink that, you know, trying
something new whether it's, youknow, doing a little bit of
freelance work, and you know,building up your skill set
there, or, you know, trying outa different marketing field and
seeing if that's the right fitfor you, I think that a lot of
people are afraid to kind oflike, try something new. And you
know, especially in today'sbusiness environment, how tricky
(31:46):
it is to land, you know, jobsand further careers because of
AI.
But I think it's super, superfundamental to try something
new. If I didn't try to go afterthat weird random blog writing
job that I found while I wasworking the backroom at Target.
I wouldn't be where I am in mycareer. So it's okay to try
(32:08):
something new. It may not workout. That's fine. You just
backpedal. But if it does workout, you just open up a whole
new opportunity, potentially acareer for yourself. So, you
know, try something new. Trysomething creative. It doesn't
work out. It's okay. It's alesson if it does work out.
Great.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (32:23):
Amazing, amazing. So my last question for
you is this is PR & Lattes. So Ihave to ask, what is your
favorite go to caffeinatedbeverage?
Pat Cooper (32:33):
Ooh, caffeinated.
Um, I'm gonna say my morningDunkin's order. Is my I want a
soda I think is likedecaffeinated these days. So I
can't say soda. I would say agood large hot coffee from
Dunkin Donuts is my go tocaffeinated drink. Drink it
every morning. I have a lot ofguests on my show that share
(32:54):
some good answers aboutcaffeinated beverages that I
cannot remember right now. Butusually like for sugars, tons of
tons of flavored crap in it.
That's probably a horrible formy health. But Dunk's is by far
my favorite go-to.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:11):
Amazing.
It's one of my favoritequestions to ask on the podcast,
because I'm like, oh, thatsounds like a good order.
Pat Cooper (33:16):
I have a whole book just writing down all the rest
of us.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:20):
Exactly.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today's podcast. Pat. I
really appreciate all your timeand your insights. If people
want to get in touch with you orfollow you on social where can
they find you?
Pat Cooper (33:31):
Yeah, so you can find me everywhere at Pat B.
Cooper. pretty active on X.
pretty active on LinkedIn. Ithink LinkedIn is just LinkedIn
is Pat Cooper, I don't reallyfollow your URL there. And you
can just find me on my site,PatBCooper.com If you want to
connect with me, and of courseyou can follow Brands Over
Brews, which is my podcast thatgoes out every Monday.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (33:52):
Amazing, and we'll have links to all that
in the podcast description soyou can check it out. Thank you
again so much for being ontoday's podcast.
Pat Cooper (34:00):
Thank you is great.
Matisse Hamel-Nelis (34:02):
You've been listening to the PR & Lattes
podcast. Make sure to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts
so you can get notified eachweek when a new episode drops.
You can also subscribe to ourweekly newsletter by visiting
our website prandlattes.com. Onthe website, you'll find our
podcast episodes as well asamazing blogs with new ones
being posted every Mondaymorning. And of course make sure
(34:25):
to follow us on social onInstagram at @PRAndLattes and on
LinkedIn. I've been your hostMatisse Hamel-Nelis. Thank you
so much for listening, and we'llsee you next week with a new
latte and guest. Bye for now.
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